Miracle Mineral Solution (MMS) and autism at Autism One: Kerri Rivera's apologists strike back

A couple of weeks ago, I was horrified to learn of a new "biomed" treatment that has been apparently gaining popularity in autism circles. Actually, it's not just autism circles in which this treatment is being promoted. Before the "autism biomed" movement discovered it, this particular variety of "miracle cure" has been touted as a treatment for cancer, AIDS, hepatitis A,B and C, malaria, herpes, TB, and who knows what else. I'm referring to something called MMS, which stands for "miracle mineral solution." As I pointed out when I discovered its promotion for various maladies and then later when I discovered its promotion at the yearly antivaccine quackfest known as Autism One, MMS is a form of bleach. It's industrial strength bleach, actually, 28% sodium chlorite in distilled water. Before use, MMS is frequently diluted in acidic juices, such as orange juice, resulting in the formation of chlorine dioxide (ClO2), which is, as the FDA characterized it in its warning about MMS, “a potent bleach used for stripping textiles and industrial water treatment.”

You might be thinking now: Orac, that's a really nutty idea! Why on earth would anyone think that bleach would be a cure for anything other than stains? Well, as far as I can figure out, besides being told by God that MMS is a cure-all, a man named Jim Humble based his decision to bleach people's diseases away on the use of ClO2 as an antimicrobial in water supplies. Of course, as I've pointed out before in detail, just because something kills bacteria in water or in a dish does not make it a good antibiotic. It's the same reason that colloidal silver is quackery. Colloidal silver is actually a pretty good topical antibiotic, but taking it internally it's impossible to achieve plasma levels adequate to have antimicrobial effects without undue toxicity. The same principle is in effect here. ClO2 works very well as a water disinfectant, but trying to achieve plasma levels equivalent to those required to disinfect water is a straight line to toxicity, and failing to do so leaves all toxicity and no potential benefit.

More importantly, the hidden assumption behind Humble's selling of MMS as a miracle cure is that the diseases he's targeting are all due to microbes. Even if MMS were an effective antimicrobial and antibiotic (leaving aside the claims about how it can be useful for pretty much all bacteria, viruses, and parasites), this rationale is utter nonense when it comes to cancer and autism. While a few cancers have their origins in infectious diseases (H. pylori leading to stomach cancer or human papilloma virus leading to cervical cancer, for example), by the time the cancer has developed it's too late. Getting rid of the microbe won't reverse the cancer.

What really seemed to hit a nerve, though, was a presentation by Kerri Rivera see for yourself at the Autism One quackfest, in which she advocated MMS as an autism treatment. When I first wrote about it, the video wasn't posted yet, but now it is (see part 1, part 2, part 3, part 4) so that you can see for yourself that the talk is no different than what could be expected based on her handouts and her previous talks. That alone was bad enough, but she also advocated giving MMS to autistic children in the form of enemas, in essence claiming that bleach enemas can cure autism. Even worse (if that were possible), Rivera advocates "fever therapy" and views fevers after bleach enemas to be a good thing, a sign that the treatment is "working," much as Jim Humble gives MMS to treat adults in increasing doses until they start to feel ill. Indeed, Rivera even exults about how much she loves "fever therapy" and how it "wakes up the immune system." In addition to the bleach enemas, she recommends a "72-2" protocol that involves making children drink dilute bleach every two hours for 72 hours.

In fact, posts by myself and others (such as Emily Willingham) about forcing autistic children to undergo bleach enemas in a vain attempt to "bleach the autism away," as I put it hit such a nerve that there is now a Change.org petition signed by over 1,500 people entitled No bleach enemas to "cure" autism in children!

Well, I guess there's nothing that quacks won't defend, because various advocates and quackery apologists are coming out of the woodwork to defend Rivera and her MMS protocol. For instance, Jim Humble himself has placed a counter-petition on Change.org that reads:

Stop telling people that MMS is bleach because it is not

Because there are some mothers that don't realize that Emily is wrong and they may never help their child to attain normalcy.

So, there! You evil skeptics! You're preventing parents from "recovering" their children from autism using bleach enemas! Stop it with your damned skepticism and insistence on science-based medicine! We believe MMS cures autism, and that's enough!

The petition also has only 31 signatures at this reading.

In any case, when looking for someone to defend the indefensible when it comes to autism quackery, there's only one place to go; so I went there. Yes, I'm referring to the antivaccine propaganda blog Age of Autism, where the ever-reliable Julie Obradovic wrote a piece about the Autism One quackfest entitled Autism One: Is there a doctor in the house? Ms. Obradovic is unhappy, too. She's unhappy about the blogosphere's take on Kerri Rivera and her bleach enemas:

Sometime that night I saw a nasty article already on the Internet about Autism One. To start the conference, there was one slamming it and The Chicago Sun Times. Now to end it, there was one slamming it and the parents who attend.

A blogger, who hadn’t attended the conference, but instead was regurgitating another blogger (who hadn’t attended the conference either), wrote an entire article about the inability to “bleach” the Autism out of a child. She was referring to MMS, a treatment being used for gut problems in some children that hadn’t even been presented yet. It was on schedule for the next morning.

It struck me as really odd that something most people at the conference didn’t even know much about had already been completely scrutinized by people who seem loathe the mere idea of medically treating a child with Autism (with anything but pharmaceuticals, apparently). It seemed obsessive and premature, to say the least, and it was eerily reminiscent of what happened with other interventions in the past.

What other interventions are those? OSR, an industrial chelator that Boyd Haley tried to sell as a supplement to be used to treat autistic children, at least until the FDA finally stopped it? Chelation therapy itself, which can kill?

From what I can tell, Ms. Obradovic is referring to a post by Kristina Chew, which cited my earlier post about Ms. Rivera's MMS talk. Whichever posts Ms. Obradovic is referencing, one thing is clear. There are certain treatments that one doesn't have to experience for oneself and talks that one doesn't have to attend oneself to realize that they are fetid, stinking piles of horse droppings. It wasn't hard to glean what Kerri Rivera was going to say from her previous talks, her blurb about her Autism One talk, and her handouts. It was even easier to come to the educated opinion that what Ms. Rivera does to autistic children is pure quackery and quite likely child abuse. No wonder she practices in Mexico, the land where quacks who would be shut down in the U.S. go avoid pesky things like laws and regulations regarding medicine and the standard of care.

Note also Ms. Obradovic's framing of the issue. To her, it's not a matter of bloggers like myself being outraged because quacks like Kerri Rivera exist and subject autistic children to bleach enemas until they have diarrhea, calling that diarrhea "good" as long as it's "detox diarrhea." It's not a matter of us being puzzled and alarmed at how parents could buy into this quackery. Our criticisms, to her, are not a matter of our wanting to protect children who make up an especially vulnerable population, autistic children. Oh, no. To Ms. Obradovic, supporters of science-based medicine attack quacks like Ms. Rivera because we "loathe the mere idea of treating a child with Autism" with anything other than pharmaceuticals. This is, of course, utter nonsense, but I have no doubt that Ms. Obradovic really believes it.

So, in answer, I will assure her that I personally do not "loathe the mere idea of treating a child with Autism" with anything other than pharmaceuticals." In fact, I don't care whether a treatment for autism—or anything else for that matter—is pharmaceutical or otherwise. I only care that the treatment be based on sound science and supported by well-designed clinical trials. What I do loathe is the idea of treating a child with autism with a therapy that has not one whit of scientific evidence to support its plausibility, is potentially dangerous, and, at the very minimum, subjects autistic children to what is likely torture for many of them (enemas, even leaving aside the question of bleach) with no prior evidence that they are likely to benefit from the treatment. In brief, I loathe the idea of subjecting children, be they autistic or neurotypical, to such rank quackery. Come up with a plausible non-pharmaceutical treatment for autism with some real science—not crank rationales—behind it, and I'll be interested and possibly even support doing clinical trials if the preclinical evidence is compelling enough. In other words, I go where the evidence leads me, and it sure doesn't lead me to MMS.

Apparently not Ms. Obradovic, who proceeds to tone troll:

But mostly, the article irritated me for its tone. The author’s message was clear: parents who try these treatments are gullible, dangerous, and/or don’t love their children, and the people who pass them off are snake oil salesmen.

Some of these are straw men; others are not. The biggest straw man of all is that we claim that parents who try these treatments are gullible and/or don't love their children. The parents might be gullible, or they might just be insufficently scientifically sophisticated to recognize quackery. No one that I know of claims that these parents don't love their children. On the other hand, we do say that the people who pass such treatments off are snake oil salesmen, because they are, although it's an insult to snake oil to compare MMS to it. And that's OK. We're coming to a conclusion we consider reasonable based on the evidence. It doesn't matter whether someone like Jim Humble or Kerri Rivera actually believe in their snake oil. It's still snake oil. I'm sorry if Ms. Obradovic is offended to read that, but it's the truth.

Moreover, the actual purveyor of this snake oil, Ms. Rivera herself, is pretty pathetic when it comes to defending MMS. This can be best seen in her response to an open letter by Autismum criticizing her use of MMS to treat autistic children. Autismum's open letter is a blistering attack on MMS quackery that concludes:

Your “treatment” is abuse. It lacks plausibility. It lacks humanity. You advocate dosing autistic children with your over priced poison to treat the fantasy symptoms of candida such as, “laughter for no reason.” I love it when by 46lb, four year old Welsh boy laughs even if I can’t tell what’s tickling him. I won’t do a thing to prevent that.

So how did Ms. Rivera respond? With a non-response, actually:

You have your science all wrong. The websites that you site are incorrect. I wish you and your son all the best. Wonderful hearing your opinion. Everyone has one be it informed or misinformed.

This is nothing more than argument by assertion. Ms. Rivera seems to think that simply asserting that her critics "have their science all wrong" is enough. She doesn't explain how we allegedly have our science wrong. She doesn't provide anything resembling decent scientific or clinical evidence to support her position and show that we are wrong. She doesn't even make a minimal attempt at a science- or evidence-based counterargument.

I'll close by noting that there might be some reason for hope. Even if the quackfest known as Autism One has no filters when it comes to allowing dangerous quackery to be presented, apparently Ms. Rivera's—shall we say?—novel treatment strategy using bleach enemas brought out some actual skepticism, at least about MMS, in the comments after Ms. Obradovic's defense of quackery. Some examples follow.

First, someone named Fielding J. Hurst, who in an earlier comment declared himself a believer in "biomed" treatments:

Chlorine Dioxide is the important part of this discussion. Your copy/paste is on Sodium Chlorite. Chlorine Dioxide has been shown to cause impaired thyroid and kidney function, as well as cause neurological impairment.

Also, there is a big difference in killing external pathogens and ingesting it. Bleach kills the pathogens by poisoning them, that doesn't mean it's a good idea to ingest it.

WHAT ABOUT ALL OF THAT GOOD BACTERIA IN THE GUT PROMOTED BY OTHER BIO-MED TREATMENTS THAT WORK? CAN SOMEONE NAME ME A BLEACH RESISTANT GOOD BACTERIA? I spent a decade healing my daughter's gut issues that I can easily see undone quickly with this stuff.

If we can't agree that it's not a MIRACLE, can we at least agree that IT'S NOT A FRICKIN' MINERAL. SOLUTION, yes. At least a little truth in the name.

My favorite tidbit from the Archbishop Humble ... IT'S NOT REAL DIARRHEA! Thank goodness. Fake Pseudo Diarrhea is very good for you. It's a sign of a miracle in progress.

OK, there's no actual evidence that the "other" biomed treatments "work" any better than MMS, but at least most of them aren't bleach. Oh, wait. They are things like hyperbaric oxygen, chelation therapy, bizarre diets, supplements, and other things equally potentially harmful. Never mind. At least Mr. Hurst realizes that MMS is quackery—unlike all that other quackery. That's a start. Perhaps that skepticism will blossom and spread to a lot of the other autism "biomed" quackery out there.

Then there's someone by the 'nym tiredmom:

I believe that autism is a fully-recoverable gut disorder, that the children are suffering and deserve treatment. That being said I think that there is A LOT of snake oil in the biomed world of autism. Autism is awful and parents are desperate and will try anything. I have also observed that we don't demand a lot from whoever comes out with a new product. We don't demand that they prove anything to us because they are one of the few who are telling us that they believe in our kids and are trying to help. I have had parents admit to me that certain doctors or supplement people asked them to endorse their products or program and gave them free supplies. I think we have to become a lot more skeptical. I don't believe we can always trust other parents' opinions. While there are many biomed treatments that help and even recover children many children get better in the early years without any intervention but if the parent is trying a certain biomed protocol at the time or even therapy they will credit that.

I was amazed that there was actually a comment recognizing that some autistic children improve on their own and that many parents trying biomedical woo mistakenly attribute such improvement to the quackery du jour they're using. Unfortunately, the vast majority of comments were more supportive, at least tolerating Ms. Rivera's quackery, like this comment by RisperDON'T:

Whatever happened to the Mercury apologists, "The dose makes the poison?" Gone?

Naysayers trashed and got OSR removed from the market for it's origin as a waste water treatment before revision for human use by one of the nation's leading University chemists.

Fluoride was suggested as a pesticide early on.

And many FDA approved (and off label use) drugs today have known toxicity including death (e.g. chemo) and those who refuse it are considered the quacks.

This is, of course, a typical fallacy used by defenders of quackery: Because real science-based medicine has side effects and complications, criticizing pseudoscientific treatments for their potential side effects is unfair. I am impressed, however, that Ms. Obradovic managed to restrain herself from pointing out how some chemotherapies still used (nitrogen mustards like cyclophosphamide and melphalan) had their origins as chemical warfare agents. Be that as it may, the difference is, of course, that these real medical treatments have scientific evidence and clinical trials showing that they work, how they work, and that the benefits outweigh the risks. MMS has nothing of the sort.

In the end, regardless of what other "biomedical" treatments are beloved at Autism One, I keep holding out hope that the organizers of Autism One would be able to realize that there are some things that are so beyond the pale that they don't belong even at Autism One. I agree with Sullivan and Emily on this count that the organizers of Autism One should renounce such quackery, in particular Kerri Rivera. Unfortunately, I also realize that this will never happen because, apparently, offering "hope" to parents of children with autism requires never "judging" and remaining "open-minded." Unfortunately, we all know what happens when you are too open-minded. Your brains fall out.


More like this

Here we go again. Remember how last week I said I wouldn't write about the Miracle Mineral Solution (abbreviated MMS) again for a while? I lied. Well, actually, I didn't. At the time I wrote that, I really did mean to give it a rest for a while, and for a while at least I was a good boy. I even…
It's that time of year again. What am I talking about? Regular readers know. They know that sometime around the Memorial Day weekend every year, usually beginning a couple of days before the extended weekend and into the weekend itself, there lands in the Chicago area a quackfest of such…
I know, I know, I've been writing about MMS a lot. Don't worry. Barring some unforeseen development, this will probably be the last one for a while. However, I just had to comment again because this is just too funny (not to mention that I didn't have a lot of time last night because, yes, I had to…
The clip above says it all with respect to "miracle mineral solution" (a.k.a. MMS). Just when I thought I was out...they pull me back in. And, as Yoda would probably put it, back in I am one more time. (How's that for mixing movie allusions?) Let's recap. MMS is bleach. Specifically, it is a 28%…

Jim Humble also promotes administering MMS intravenously if the vomiting and the diarrhea are bad enough to stop the recipient receiving them by the usual routes.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 10 Jun 2012 #permalink

If you want to see how crazy some MMS fans are, just look at reviews of Jim Humble's books and videos are on places like Amazon and YouTube. It's all extreme paranoia about "big pharma" coupled with a general lack of critical thinking and anecdotes galore. I think it would be fun to bait these people.

Jim Humble also promotes administering MMS intravenously if the vomiting and the diarrhea are bad enough to stop the recipient receiving them by the usual routes.


By Julian frost (not verified) on 10 Jun 2012 #permalink

Holy-moley - they have a problem with the "toxins" in vaccines, but are just fine with giving their kids bleach directly injected into the bloodstream?

What kind of bath crystals are these people on?

I haven't seen anyone explicitly advise inflicting intravenous MMS on *children* -- they just talk about "the patient" -- but I could only read so far, despite a notoriously high threshold of disgust.

There is also any number of nutters who reckon that because MMS is a powerful oxidant (YAY! GOOD!), while DMSO is a powerful antioxidant (YAY! GOOD!), therefore the two should be combined in a drugs cocktail that would be DOUBLEPLUS GOOD.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 10 Jun 2012 #permalink

I guess I don't understand the assertion that MMS isn't bleach. That's pretty basic chemistry.

By Marry Me, Mindy (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

NaClO2 - Sodium Chlorite. Chemicals.
C9H8O4 Aspirin. Chemicals.
Why is one a DEADLY PHARMACEUTICAL and the other is a Miracle Solution ? (btw: sodium chlorite is neither a mineral nor a miracle. )
Second: why is this idiot permitted to sell this crap ?
Are there not laws against administering a noxious substance ? or poisoning ? How come these evil pustules on the ass of society aren't behind bars ? because they claim it's treatment ? I could set up a storefront and claim kicking the crap out of cancer patients was curing them, that wouldn't make it true and it wouldn't immunize me from prosecution for assault.

PS: love the brainless bear (?)

On her Facebook page, Alison MacNeil is promoting the pro-MMS petition on change.org. You may remember her - she's the daughter of Robert MacNeil, the famous journalist, whom she persuaded to make "An embarrassing, reckless, and irresponsible coda to Robert MacNeil’s career".


Not only does she want her friends to sign the petition, she also posted a picture of a T-shirt that was emblazoned with: "Enema MacNeil", with the caption "hey ARI? I'm with Kerri". It seems she wore this while attending Autism One.

It seems safe to assume that Robert MacNeil's son is being subjected to bleach enemas.

By Broken Link (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

Edit - Robert MacNeil's GRANDSON.

By Broken Link (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

It struck me as really odd that something most people at the conference didn’t even know much about had already been completely scrutinized

Because MMS is not new. Ask Rhys Martin, who wrote about it in 2010.

bleach enemas

a “72-2″ protocol that involves making children drink dilute bleach every two hours for 72 hours.

MMS, a treatment being used for gut problems in some children

With so much bleach attacking your children's gut flora (not to mention irritating the intestine itself), if they don't have gut problems at first, they will after the treatment.

Are they trying to prove Wakefield right by creating a bunch of autisitic children with guts issues?

By Heliantus (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

Just where the pluperfect hell is Child Protective Services when you need them?

James 2:24

Following on from DLCs comments

Bleach = sodium hypochlorite solution (NaOCl) which would be a "nasty chemical" if In a vaccine. Is a lot less than natural then formaldehyde (I am not aware of any natural sources) and is made in chemical plants by big nasty chemical companies. Maybe the Autisim groups are In the pay of "big Chemical".

Bleach is also a powerful oxidant which presumably is bad as antioxidants are good.

By Neil on Knees (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

Good on Autismum for posing questions to Kerri Rivera. The response from Rivera "says it all". This non-doctor, non-scientist who is an acolyte of Jim Humble and who operates beyond our borders *claims* that the specialized autism clinic that she operates is to enable poor Mexican children to have the benefits of chelation, MMS and other biomedical interventions. She also *claims* to have *cured* children who were diagnosed as having autism.

Why is the ex-pat in Mexico? Where is the proof that she has *cured* any child? These questions go unanswered...and will remain unanswered for the simple fact that she is fronting for Jim Humble and is out of the reach of the FDA and any local or State Child Protective Agency.

The groupies over at AoA, and the parents who are dosing their kids with MMS are hard-nosed child abusers. And, no, I disagree that the parents who feed their kids MMS and who shove MMS solution enemas into their children are well meaning loving parents who don't understand the dangers and pain that they subject their children to. They look at their children as lab guinea pigs, they see their children writhing in pain, they see the tears and the fear of the "treatments" in their childrens' eyes. And, the damage they do to their children is no different than the damage that would be inflicted by a sick deviant stranger.

Take a look at some of the links on Macneil's Facebook page.Autism recovery with homeopathy is one.

By Roger Kulp (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

Making the rounds today I seem to spot a trend:
@ AoA, Mr Olmsted chastises the use of the anti-malarial, mefloquinine ( Lariam) by the American military.
Ms Conrick praises NAC ( I've been hearing about it for years *chez* idiot)
@ TMR, Ms Mamacita describes the deleterious effects of GMOs and food additives.
Orac cites a commenter 'nymmed "RisperDON'T". ( Risperdal is an atypical anti-psychotic sometimes prescribed to children with ASDs)
Some anti-vaxxers defend MMS while despising vaccines.

They appear to be labelling standard pharmaceuticals and technical innovations as *Verboten* while accepting non-pharma products as acceptable whether they be supplements or industrial bleaches or chelators. I guess it depends on who is selling the treatment.

Some of these parents load their children with handfuls of supplements that are un-tested and rail about doctors recommending Risperdal et al : they recount these tales of force feeding pills as though they were proud of their mis-use of their children.

I believe that one AJW really focused attention on the spurious autism/ GI connection- Andy's project- the gift that keeps on giving . More bad ideas.

@ DLC: I think that it's a bunny with a removable brain
-btw- someone gave me a plastic wind-up toy that is a brain on 2 feet that walks about.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

OT- but I think that it fits in extremely well

Over @ Quackwatch**, I just learned that legal action based on Gary Null's infamously bad batch of supplemental powders, ( covered by Orac in April, 2010) that sickened him and several customers, has been partially resolved : 2 of the 6 who were hospitalised settled their suits for undisclosed amounts BUT a fellow representting his mother, who died, continues on behalf of her estate.

Remember this is the dude who writes about how SBM is killing people by the hundreds of thousands.
If you google his name, Barrett's article is amongst the first few hits. Guess that's why he switched his main activites over to a crock called PRN.

** last paragraph of Barrett's article on the quack; Dr B links to the suits.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

I'm blushing!
There is some fella, Alejandro Diaz, doing the rounds of the blogs defending Kerri Rivera and MMS. It's quite fun to see him contradict himself from one to another and his grasp of chemistry, well, lack of it, is hilarious.
and DLC, I think you'll find that's lop-eared rabbit and not a bear. Maybe it's a dog. I don't know but I want one.

Oh my goodness! An amigurami critter with removable brain! Am I weird that I find it adorable and hilarious at the same time?

That anyone would be suckered by MMS is depressing, but hey, go back a hundred years and folks were paying big bucks to have (presumed) billy goat testicles implanted in their abdomens. Or look at the trial of the "lady" down in Florida who was caught giving cheap buttock enhancement procedures that basically consisted of injecting caulk into people's backsides. (Yes, with a caulk gun.) There really is a sucker born every minute.

I think the people who do this to their kids do actually love their children. It's hard to understand, but consider this: a great many abusers love their children too, even though they hit them. It's much more complicated than "love = do good things to the people you love". You'd *think* it would be that simple, but these are people we're talking about, and people are anything but simple. Abusers usually aren't fully aware of how badly they're treating their children; they're in denial. And people who overmedicate their children (whether with approved drugs or not) are also often so far down the rabbit hole they aren't looking at the situation dispassionately; they become so focused on the cure and chasing a possible future that they don't notice the present. Of course, it's hard to be dispassionate anyway when it's your kids we're talking about. I can definitely see how some might think any treatment is worth trying.

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

@ Denice Walter: Also at AoA...after Stagmom offered up a lame disclaimer about MMS...she *claims* that AoA does not endorse MMS or any other bizarre *treatment*...there have been no more comments posted. I suspect that the thread is now closed. Too bad. I was busy re-posting the comments on Science blogs just so people are aware of what these child abusers are doing to their children.

Yeah... 'we don't want no stinkin' aluminum or mercury in our kids!'

"Bleach and Ionic silver? Those are GREAT!"

I don't get it. I just don't. Their ignorance is truly staggering. The whole 'if it isn't BIG PHARMA it must be GOOD" idea is just grotesque.

Colloidal silver is my pet peeve. Sure - let's give our special snowflakes ionic silver, which is toxic to pretty much every organism out there - and even better, it's nano silver!

Particles small enough to pass through the cell membrane by diffusion alone (and the blood brain barrier) - along with being taken up by the Na+ pumps into the cell.


DMSO is NOT fun stuff. It reacts very badly with my skin. I definitely wouldn't want to mix the two together. Not sure what the final reaction might be, but I do know that DMSO is supposed to draw things into the tissues (there are those who argue against a DMSO instillation cocktail for interstitial cystitis including lidocaine for that reason, though some have suggested a "rescue instillation" including lidocaine after a DMSO instillation might not be unsafe).

I have never heard of DMSO taken orally - is the mixture suggested for topical application for people who are having issues taking it orally?

The latest things with MMS makes me wonder how more alt-med lovers aren't dead.

@ Calli Arcale: While it is true that convicted child batterers and child murderers all *claim* to love their children, they are violent pugnacious individuals who work out their aggressions on their children. The end result is that their children are irreparably harmed emotionally and physically and...just as dead... as if the sicko pervert around the corner used these children to satisfy his/her sadistic appetite.

These parents are similar to the religious zealots who believe their child is possessed and subject their children to rituals to cast out the demons. Here the demons are parasites, fungi, bacteria and other pathogens and heavy metals and vaccines that need to be *treated*. They are looking for the easy fix, rather than devoting their time and energies to help their kids. They are consumed with anger at their *situation* and view their children as being dirty infested beings. They experiment with their children behind closed doors and deliberately hide their *treatments* from other family members. They know damn well that society views their *treatments* as child abuse and when they are *caught* by Child Protective Services, they claim to love their child.

Why does AoA defend the actions of the disgraced Wakefield and the Geiers? Why are these child-abusing characters giving a platform at Autism One and why are the groupies providing financial support to Wakefield. The answer is simple, their judgement is warped and their moral compasses and their parenting skill are non-existent.

I've often been accused of being a bleeding heart liberal because I believe that many people who are caught up in the criminal justice system can be rehabilitated, if given a chance. My compassion does not extend to child abusers.

@ lilady:

The fans also live vicariously through the bold, maverick, rebel paradigm-shifters (i.e woo-meisters): as AJW shall re-educate the corruption-ridden world of SBM, they will also bask in the radiant sunlight as they intone," I told you so!" along with him; the SB nay-sayers shall have their comeuppance and all will be right with the world.

I think that the ever-spouting geysers of woo serve as role models for the fans' own activities: writing, speaking, selling useless ( or dangerous) crap to the un-suspecting and un-informed, being grandiosity personified.If you peruse anti-vaxx sites' facebook connections, you'll observe that they have thousands waiting in the wings.

-btw- you'll notice that ( in other thread) that my version of the esteemed ancient concoction requires better hootch! Family motto: "Better Hootch, Forward!" ( in Latin, I think)

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

@ Mrs Woo:

EVEN if the alt med treatments DO contribute to their demises, who can ever prove a link in a court of law? That would be a difficult task. See my comment above about Dr Barrett.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

The latest things with MMS makes me wonder how more alt-med lovers aren’t dead.
Probably because they are clever enough not to take it themselves, only use it on their children (but those are lost anyway, so no harm done if they don't make it).

IMO it is of no importance whether parents giving their children "bleach therapy" love them or not.

What is important is that they are giving their children "bleach therapy".

By Composer99 (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

And alt-med people always blame previous "allopathic treatments" for "weakening the patient too much for alt-med to save them." ~shakes head~

I sometimes get baffled by how hard it is to turn "true believers" around. Usually the best I can do with Mr Woo is make him angry pointing out ways that his newest alt-med treatment is illogical or unrealistic. Right now he's listening to one of his favorite "truth" websites that has assured him that the government has created the zombie virus and, in true New World Order style, has made us aware that it exists (according to Alex Jones, the NWO has rules that include telling us their plans but in ways that make them seem unbelievable).

To think, I'm skipping violin practice to not disturb him listening to it...?

"To think, I’m skipping violin practice to not disturb him listening to it…?"

Mrs Woo, you should be practicing your violin. Please don't tell me that you have the talent of Midori, though :-)


@ Neil on Knees 8:43am

Bleach = sodium hypochlorite solution (NaOCl) which would be a “nasty chemical” if In a vaccine. Is a lot less than natural then formaldehyde (I am not aware of any natural sources)

Actually, that's not true, there is a very common natural source of hypochlorites in all mammals: the phagolysosome inside our macrophages and other bug-eating white cells.
(see Wikipedia article on hypochlorite for this)
But note how it is inside a very specialized vacuole, the in-cell version of a NBC suit, and how transient it is.
It seems evolution spend some effort segregating super-oxidizing molecules. There doesn't seem to be a strong benefit in having them free-roaming in the blood stream ...

By Heliantus (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

according to Alex Jones, the NWO has rules that include telling us their plans but in ways that make them seem unbelievable

My understanding of this was that the Masons have a duty to reveal their intentions but are allowed to do so cryptically. Minor difference.

The biggest straw man of all is that we claim that parents who try these treatments are gullible and/or don’t love their children. The parents might be gullible, or they might just be insufficently scientifically sophisticated to recognize quackery. No one that I know of claims that these parents don’t love their children.

I know you are loathe to cast such judgement but I did just say it. http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2012/06/open-letter-to-biomeddlers.html

You may disagree but I simply can't see how anyone can subject their children to these vile "treatments" and exploit them out of love. I have to agree with lilady on this one.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

That bunny is both cute and terrifying.

By Katherine Lorraine (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

I hate to say but I will anyway: parents may actually GAIN- at least socially- from their child's condition- Freud wrote about 'secondary gain' wherein a person who is ill uses that condtion to his or her advantage -perhaps to "make-up" for other losses experienced- so, we might call this "secondary gain by proxy". I am not saying that this is done *deliberately* or even consciously but some folks that I can NAME ( or refer to by 'nym) became semi-famous because of their association with the Cause: they write books and posts about autism, they're lauded as brave martyr parents, they are listed amongst the elect or suchlike.

Woo advocates' cavalier notion about diagnosis and treatment by the untrained is rather scary itself: remember, these are the people who gripe about how real doctors and psychologists *label* their children and its "un-professionalism".

So glad that working in this part of the field is not my metier.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

MMS has been touted to cure Lyme disease too. Which only makes sense because Lyme causes autism, of course. :-(

By Annonymous72 (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

@ Science Mom: Thanks for taking a stand against these abusing parents. Your statement on your blog is exactly what should be stated to these sadist parents.

We have stood by while kids have been maimed and killed by *interventions* and haven't as yet labeled their actions as abusive. It must be something is our collective psyches that we make excuses for parents who maim their children..."they are well meaning or well intentioned", "they are gullible", "they are uneducated and ignorant about dangerous treatments"...Ad infinitum. We just cannot comprehend that a parent would knowingly endanger or injure their child.

There are malevolent people in this world and abuse of a child doesn't magically change to not a case of abuse, because the abuser is identified as the child's parent.

If you have convinced yourself that autism is a fate worse than death, then I can certainly see parents believing that trying MMS is better than the alternative. I don't believe, other than in highly unusual situations, that these parents are intentionally malicious. Hopelessly misguided, perhaps, but not evil.

I'm sorry but I can't beleive anyone, much less a parent, believing oral bleach, intravenous bleach or bleach enema'a are a reasonable alternative to anything under any circumstances.

Whether they're misguded or acting out of malice, they're still abusing children.

lilady, I think you missed my point. What abusers do to their children is absolutely wrong, and certainly damages the children. Sometimes they even kill their children. But we should not make the mistake of assuming that they are all lying when they say they love their children. Nor should we assume all abusers have the same motivations for what they do.

The ones who are taking out their anger on a convenient target -- many of those probably do genuinely love their children, which makes the situation all the more tragic. It would probably be easier if the parents were just assholes, honestly. Love makes it worse, then. A parent who is unfit to parent can be blinded by their love for their children and refuse to be separated from them. We idolize those who do the right thing, and rightly so, because it is better to give up your children out of love because you recognize they are better off without you. But love makes it harder, because it hurts more to lose them. Addicts, philanderers, people with anger management issues . . . . They often mean well. They just don't *do* well. And the hell of it is, sometimes they realize just what a horror they're putting their families through. Some will use that as a moment of clarity, and break the cycle; others will simply spiral further down in response.

With people who subject their children to woo....

They are spending huge amounts of money, many of them. They honestly believe this is what is good for their children, that there is some hope. If they didn't love the children, why wouldn't they just abandon them? I can't make sense of their actions except as Munchausen's by Proxy or by a deep and potent love that has blinded the parent and made them far too eager to grasp at offers of hope. I've seen that happen. I am sure that most, and quite possibly all, of these people on AoA and other sites do love their children.

Love can be abusive, though. To assume that an abuser doesn't love is to gravely underestimate the extent of abuse, and overestimate the power of love. Love, without reason, can lead to quite horrifying outcomes. In Camaroon, some women iron their daughters' chests in hopes of reducing the size of their breasts. It doesn't work, but they do it anyway, because they love their daughters. They think that making them less attractive will reduce their risk of being raped. That doesn't work either, of course, but they keep trying, and the results can be as agonizingly horrific as any burn can be.

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

I don’t believe, other than in highly unusual situations, that these parents are intentionally malicious. Hopelessly misguided, perhaps, but not evil.

I respectfully disagree. If you can look at your child and STILL think it's a good idea to jack them up with bleach, or inject chelators, immunoglobulins, force-feed them anti-fungals and antibiotics then you are evil and have no humanity.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

Freud wrote about ‘secondary gain’ wherein a person who is ill uses that condtion to his or her advantage -perhaps to “make-up” for other losses experienced- so, we might call this “secondary gain by proxy”.

The AoA people talk about autism as the New Epidemic, not noticing that the *real* epidemic is of Munchausen-by-Proxy.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

@ Denice Walter:

"Freud wrote about ‘secondary gain’ wherein a person who is ill uses that condtion to his or her advantage -perhaps to “make-up” for other losses experienced- so, we might call this “secondary gain by proxy”.

Can you say Munchausen-By-Proxy-Syndrome, Denice? Its odd that much discussion is taking place about the changes in the DSM 5 diagnostic criteria pertaining to autism. (Truly outside of my area of expertise), but perhaps there should be a new subgroup under Munchausen-By-Proxy to describe the abuse of a developmentally disabled child.

I would "propose" that this new subgroup is marked by parents who are immature, who haven't accepted their child's differences from the "norm", who have a preexisting degree of narcissism, who are angry and prone to histrionics, who view themselves as martyrs, who have a distrust of science, who are in denial and are publicity seekers, who need constant reinforcement from their "group" and...who seize an opportunity to "capitalize on their child" by pimping their stories on anti-vaccine websites.

If superglue is involved, it's Munchausen-by-Epoxy.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

Actually that would be Munchausen-by-cyanoacrylate ...

This bleach thing really, really makes me think of all the old tales about changelings. You surely know the folk tale - if your child starts to behave strangely, cries all the time, makes faces, looks disfigured - it's not your child anymore, your child has been taken by elves and what is in the crib, is their changeling. So what you do? Start beating the changeling until its mother comes to save it and brings your own child in return.

I have never heard of DMSO taken orally – is the mixture suggested for topical application for people who are having issues taking it orally?

The Great Google reveals that while some people are mixing DMSO into their MMS and applying to the skin, others are indeed drinking it.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

I've always felt that AJW's project sounded like MBP: inventing an illness where there was none,
subjecting children in his charge to unnecessary tests, getting attention from the process...

but I can't say that because we should never diagnosis anyone over the 'net....
doens't mean that our minds will not go where the situation leads them..

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

@ Cali, you are a kind and considerate person and I think it's going to come down to agreeing to disagree. The biomeddlers aren't culturally or educationally isolated, on the contrary, they go on and on about how 'educated' they are. So they have no excuse for what they are doing and some actively hide what they are doing. I'll concede that they may have some excruciatingly warped remnant of love for their children but have dehumanised them so extensively that they convince themselves that only they care enough or are the only ones to "recover" them. Recover them from what? Drug addiction? Cancer? Infectious disease? If they truly loved the child there in front of them, there is no way (in my opinion) that they could inflict the damage they do and brag about it no less. No, this is about the selfish parents.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

@ Calli Arcale: And, I think you missed my point. Let me rephrase some of my prior statements, for clarity.

The love that you describe as being well-meaning and misinterpreted, is a sick love. Even the most intellectually impaired child will recoil from oral doses of industrial strength chemicals because of the memory of prior doses that caused that child to puke. The parents who shove catheters up their kids rectums to instill caustic enemas see the fear on their child's face, the tears welling up and see their child writhing in pain as they are dealing with agonizing bowel cramps. Their feces, after repeated bowel cleansings are not formed; they are watery and acidic and they excoriate the delicate rectal tissue. Yet, the parents still persist with the ritual purgings.

"With people who subject their children to woo….

They are spending huge amounts of money, many of them. They honestly believe this is what is good for their children, that there is some hope. If they didn’t love the children, why wouldn’t they just abandon them?"

Why would you equate the money that is spent on these "treatments" with parental love, Calli? They don't "abandon them" because they would lose face in the community and within the group on websites. Having people who are unaware that you are abusing your child and who heap praises on you for caring for your child and being a "martyr" in your own perverse mind, fulfills a sick need for these abusers. They are powerful motivators to hang on to your child.

I might add Calli, that this subset of Munchausen-By-Proxy parents are slick. They do their "treatments" behind closed doors and back off their "treatments" before their children becomes so dehydrated or so anemic that they require hospitalization.

Please Calli, do not compare certain practices such as genital mutilation that takes place in Africa or breast "ironing", which are being condemned by educated people in those same societies...and roundly condemned by everyone outside of those closed societies.

Years ago, in the Western World, certain ethnic groups had the xenophobic and dynasty-building practice of marrying off young virgins to older cousins. In China, they used to bind the feet of upper class young girls...to make them more desirable. Those practices have all been abandoned, because of our enlightened attitudes.

These abusing parents live in a society that does not abuse our kids, we don't have a close male relative who "prepares" a young woman for marriage. We don't...with the exception of certain cults...hand over 10 year old girls...to pleasure old men. We don't countenance psychological, emotional or physical abuse by teachers or caregivers who we entrust our children with. Child abuse is child abuse, even if the abuser tries to hide behind the label of parent.

You are defending the indefensible, Calli.

The Great Google reveals that while some people are mixing DMSO into their MMS and applying to the skin, others are indeed drinking it.

Is it just me, or is this the height of irony? (Yes, I know what they mean.)

@ Calli Arcade:

Don't forget the "Ashley Treatment" for some severely disabled children -- keeping them small and preventing puberty. And one of the reasons the parents have this done is to prevent sex abuse. It's easy for me to talk, but I can't get my mind around this, particulary the last reason! If someone is so sick as to rape a helpless person, "infantilizing" (if that's the right word) the patient won't stop it.

This is not even woo!

By Queen Khentkawes (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

@ Queen Khentkawes

We all agree that woo is pretty terrible, but there are many, many differences between the Ashley Treatment and woo. If you haven't seen it yet, here is the parent's rationale for the Ashley treatment in one slide

Ethically controversial? Yes.

However there are some clear medical benefits to Ashley, and every procedure, even though some were invasive, was a legitimate medical procedure with clear data about risks and side effects. Unlike the haphazard treatment of children with bleach, which is never a good idea.

Also, if you really read the entire case, I believe the parent's had Ashley's best interests in mind, not their own.

If you have specific questions about that treatment, let me know. We just had a very in-depth presentation on the topic in my ethics in healthcare research, practice, and policy class.


The Ashley Treatment is a false dilemma regarding the potential for sexual abuse. Abusers abuse children (and other peoples) regardless of their size, puberty, mental capacity or even if they wore burka (no offense intended to burka). There is absolutely no correlation regarding sexual abuse potential and puberty or not puberty.

The other reason are entirely valid but the potential for sexual abuse in that case is bullshit.

By Autistic Lurker (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

@ Autistic Lurker

You are probably right, I honestly know nothing about that topic. Could you link to the data that you are referring to that says there is no correlation between abusers and the people they choose to abuse?

However, the comment I was replying to above said the Ashley Treatment was referring to the Ashley Treatment as being comparable to woo. I was arguing that it is not, mainly due to the medical reasons for many of the procedures. Maybe if you fixate on the treatment as a way to prevent abuse and ignore everything else, you could argue that it was unethical, but I would argue that overall, it was an ethically justified procedure.

Also, in my opinion, regardless of the preferences (or lack thereof) of abusers, the Ashley Treatment is a very powerful way to prevent abuse, because it allows the child to stay under the care of his/her parents, as opposed to institutionalization.

Ugh! We need more science education in America!

by one of the nation’s leading University chemists

What? E. J. Corey was involved? Richard Heck? Barry Sharpless? That commenter wouldn’t know a “leading University chemist” if he met one.

Yeah, I know there’s that thing we call “Nobel disease” but Boyd Haley’s not on that list. And (no offense to intended to residents of KY or alumni and students) the University of Kentucky isn’t exactly a scientific mecca.

I think it's worth noting, at least in passing, that MMS might conceivably benefit some people. By producing a strong base, the solution would predictably neutralize stomach acid, which COULD be a good thing, IF (as most obviously in the case of ulcers) a condition involved either an excessive amount of stomach acid or a weakening of the stomach lining. And, if the person is on the autism spectrum, it's plausible that, by alleviating the GI condition, autism symptoms could be mitigated simply by reducing stress. Of course, none of these possibilities are in evidence in the presentation material.

David N. Brown

Mesa, Arizona

By David N. Brown (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

Calli Arcale, ScienceMom, and Lilady: re loving your children.

This is where I’d like to repost Kelly M Bray’s comment from May 16th, but I botched saving the link and can’t find the original comment (it has been reposted elsewhere; perhaps Kelly would be willing to repost it again on Just the Vax in the comments to Science Mom’s latest post). The comment resonated with me, and I’ve thought about it a lot.

To paraphrase: what would you change about your child? Nothing.

Myself, I’d like to get my children to modify some of their bad habits, but that’s about it. As I said, the comment resonated with me, and I’ve thought a lot about it. While my kids fall under the umbrella of “normal,” they aren’t exactly “typical” and it has not always been easy being their parent. But, like Kelly, I wouldn’t have it any other way.

"Abusers abuse children (and other peoples) regardless of their size, puberty, mental capacity "

This is true for offenders in general, but NOT for individuals. By accepted wisdom, the victims of a single offender will fall within a quite narrow range of ages. Of course, that doesn't make arresting physical development any more useful.

I suspect that this is, in no small part, a case of expressing legitimate but unpleasant concerns in euphemism. The most obvious REAL problem is that a mentally handicapped but physically fully developed woman can get pregnant (and probably will NOT use "protection" on her own initiative!), and possibly have an equally disabled child. There's also foreseeable problems where mental functioning is just high enough that a "partner" might claim "apparent" consent with some plausibility.

David N. Brown

Mesa, Arizona

By David N. Brown (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

David Brown @7:20

predictably neutralize stomach acid
We have medications like Prevacid and Zantac for that, with the added bonus that they don't destroy the patients' intestinal membranes.

I cringe when I read the comment from the mother who mistook slough off of from the damage done to her child's intestine as a proof of dead parasites.

I've seen slough off: In my child's case, the damage was done by dairy products - and you know what? I stopped giving them to her!

Total HTML and proof reading fail. Obviously, my quotation of David ends at "acid."


Uh, dude, parents and relatives abuse children all the time, and the abuse often happens in the home. I wouldn't present institutionalization as though it automatically guarantees sexual abuse whereas home is safe and sound, because that's demonstrably not true. I also think it does a pretty big disservice to non-parental carers by implying that they are all predators waiting to pounce.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go be ill over in the corner. While I recognize that Ashley's parents are in a difficult situation, every time I read their thoughts, I feel like they just didn't want a woman's body interfering with the illusion of their perpetual infant. I can't verbalize well why it bugs me, aside from feeling like Ashley is viewed as a thing to be changed at will and not a person.

@ ccs:

I was reacting more to Calli Arcade's post than the bleach, and I should have made that clear. Having said that:

1. The argument can certainly be made that stopping growth makes it easier on both the child and the caregiver.

2. The argument can certainly be made in favor of sterilization of the child. Personally, I think it's a slippery slope, but that's just me. I can see why the parents would worry about a pregnancy.

3. But to say that all this will protect the child from sexual abuse is nonsensical. Aside from the fact that they may be institutionalized at some point, the parents have to protect their child from everyone who comes in the house. This "small size as protection" argument is woo and ought not be made.

4. I have to echo Nashira here. "Pillow angel" sounds to me like a demotion from "person" and I don't like that.

By Queen Khentkawes (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

One application of DMSO in research settings is as a 'vehicle' to carry other drugs, chemicals, metals and allergens through the skin. We call this 'painting'. The DMSO is mixed with the compound of interest and the mixture is brushed onto a small area of exposed skin.....and vuala!

This MMS story just keeps getting scarier.

Did anyone hear Rivera describe how the "72-2" protocol was conceived? In the video I watched, Rivera told a story about a desperate parent using a 'standard' MMS treatment involving treating only during the day. Apparently, this mother lay awake at night wondering whether the parasites might have plenty of time to grow while she was sleeping (and therefore not able to bleach her poor child), so....yep, you guessed it, the mom devised an 3 day torture protocol that she felt wouldn't give the parasites time to grow. Rivera was so moved by this that she immediately adopted the protocol as standard procedure. Now that's science-based medicine!

Honest question. I've heard this idea a few times now:

'I believe that autism is a fully-recoverable gut disorder, that the children are suffering and deserve treatment"
(sorry, suck at html, and without preview, can't be bothered trying)

I don't get this - my, admittedly limited, exposure to autism suggests there's a problem somewhere with the brain - not the gut. How the hell do they explain the idea that a problem in the gut is causing autism?

Meg, it is because when Richard Barr was looking for someone to provide "research" to support a lawsuit in the UK, the person he found willing to do fraud for cash was Andrew Wakefield. Since Wakefield was a gastroenterologist he tied it all to the "gut."

I am not defending the indefensible. You are misunderstanding me, apparently thinking I am defending child abuse. I AM NOT, and I am offended that you think so. I am well aware that child abuse is reprehensible. My point is that telling these people "you obviously don't love your children" is a) wrong and b) counterproductive, because it's a great way of making people defensive. You want them to hate you? Go ahead and tell them they hate their children; I can guarantee you it will only reinforce their views.

The world is not black and white, lilady, divided into good people and evil people, with good people incapable of evil acts. Quite the contrary. People are a mixture of both, and are fallible. They can be fooled, they can be deluded, and they can deceive even themselves without realizing they are doing it. And there is no greater evil than that which is done out of love. "It's good for him. She'll thank me when she's grown. This is better than the alternative. We must beat the demon out." (I met an exorcist once. Now *that* was a surreal experience. Luckily, not one which believed in beating the devil out, but still very very weird.)

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

Jeebus, this comment just showed up on my blog:

Amanzo, mother of Liam (3)June 11, 2012 9:03 PM

MMS is NOT bleach! If anyone would take the time to understand the chemistry behind the substance, you would have proper information to THEN evaluate. Chlorine dioxide is SAFE in the ways we use it with children and people. It is a compound produced by our immune system. Anyone who doesn't believe autism is an immune-disorder needs only see the lists of food sensitivity my child has. I will help restore my child's body to health - because I love him and want the best for his future. I believe in MMS and Kerri Rivera. Please research more before you sign this petition.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

My point is that telling these people “you obviously don’t love your children” is a) wrong and b) counterproductive, because it’s a great way of making people defensive. You want them to hate you? Go ahead and tell them they hate their children; I can guarantee you it will only reinforce their views.

Calli, these are people who are completely immune to reason, evidence, logic and humanity. They already hate "us"; we're the enemy remember? We're "pharma whores", "shills" and "vaccine-pushers". These are people who intentionally isolate themselves from criticism and dissent, people who initiate lawsuits against their critics, threaten people's employment, threaten people's safety and the safety of their children and who stalk their critics. This is not a nice and rational group of people. Education doesn't work, compassion doesn't work so what do you suggest? They need a wake-up call, if for nothing than yes, to put them on the defensive. Because their repugnant and defiant defence of abuse may prevent others from going down the same road.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

Calli...let's agree to disagree. I personally don't care if they hate me for calling them out for their abuse of their children.

I don't talk around an issue of blatant child abuse and I will not give them "a pass" or let them cop of plea of ignorance, because they are "misunderstood" and "only want the best for their child".

I obviously do not share your view of the world and your view that good people commit evil acts, simply because they "can". These cold and unfeeling abusers, have severe mental problems that they refuse to acknowledge or get help for. They would rather work out their anger on their defenseless kids.

Just remember Calli, that for every abusive parent, there are enablers; a spouse, another family member or a neighbor who "prefers" to not "get involved"...the abusers count on this.

Child abuse is everyone's business.

Science Mom, it seems that most of the "MMS is not bleach" comments on several blogs are very similar. It reeks of sock puppetry.


the data is personal, I've met 2 peoples who fit the criteria of abusers.


By Autistic Lurker (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

Meg@10:00 GI disease does not cause autism.They are both part of any number of complex multisystemic syndromes,in which autism is only an obvious outward presentation.

This simple fact is something so few seem to be able to grasp.People on both sides of this issue.People who have neither lived with one of these diseases,or bothered to do any real research beyond blogs and news articles,only see autism as what is in the DSM,nothing more,nothing less.They are completely clueless.*

On the other hand,you have the antivax people who are so warped and twisted about the cause,so dedicated to their ideas,and like the religious cult they truly are,desperate for new converts. **

Frankly,I don't know why researchers like Natowicz,Swedo,and Ramaekers bother to find these syndromes,and metabolic links.There are few of us on the spectrum,who will ever be tested.and the studies always get twisted,and misinterpreted,by the likes of AoA,to fit their agenda.I would argue this is on purpose.

Calli Arcle@10:45 pm

They hate us already.Antivaxers do see everything in black and white.

*And if Ari Ne'eman,and ASAN have their way,the basic criteria in the DSM will be further watered down,by allowing people who meet even less of the full criteria for ASD to be diagnosed.Thus further padding the numbers,and fueling more fear mongering about an "autism epidemic".Feeding on one another,like a snake eating its tail.

**One more "gambit" the antivax people like to pull,is the "our kids are unique gambit".This implies there were never any children born with autism,and complex medical issues,born before 1990 or so.

By Roger Kulp (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink

@Chris 10.34 - I know the history of Wakefield's involvement, but my understanding of his study was that the gut issues were evidence that the MMR vaccine had caused Autism/regression etc. The quote was 'a gut disorder' causes Autism. If anything, would bowel issues be a symptom of Autism?

@Roger 12.28 - I never suggested GI causes Autism - my question was WHY do people believe that it does? I know that the anti-vaxers often show amazing lack of logic/rational thinking, but this seems strange.

What in the gut could possibly cause the brain to 'misfunction' for lack of a better term? Or is it simply because that is one of the symptoms that seems the most obvious, or 'easiest to fix'? I just struggle to see the connection, and hence the reason for MMS or other such barbaric treatments.

Meg, there was a claim by him that is was all connected.

There are papers that show intestinal issues are not unique to autism, and not in every autistic child. There could be a connection with the limited diet and behaviors in autism that could cause the intestinal issues. Kind of like my normally developing son refusing to eat certain foods caused his constipation.

@Science Mom

That's the standard fallback, "You don't understand the chemistry!"

The chemistry is quite simple. 28% sodium chlorite in distilled water.

NaClO2: it's not 'Clorox' bleach (NaClO) - it's a stronger oxidizer and bleaching agent. It may not be clorox, but it still functions as bleach.

Trying to say it isn't bleach is like saying an El Camino isn't a car, because it has a truck's bed. Potato-potahto. I

What scares the bejeesus out of me are websites like this one, "http://www.realrawfood.com/how-make-mms" which are so full of fail it's amazing.

"MMS is light sensitive so you must bottle it in a very dark glass or plastic bottle, or in dark opaque plastic. Dark green, blue, or brown transparent plastic is okay. The light that goes through these dark colours will not harm the MMS. Don’t worry about the MMS being out in the daylight for a couple of days. However, never allow it to set in the direct sunlight. Sunlight will ruin it in an hour even when it’s in a dark plastic bottle"

Ok - so it can't get sunlight - but dno't worry about it being out in the daylight for a couple of days, but don't set it in direct sunlight, since it'll ruin it in an hour.


@chemmomo 7:51,
I would have figured that there would be medications available for dealing with genuine excessive stomach acid. The issue of intestinal damage would certainly make a dedicated medication preferrable to a "basic chem" solution... though, I must say, losing a layer of lining WOULD take care of parasites, if they are really there. Not that that would help a great deal: Removing mature parasites from a patient doesn't take care of the eggs or larvae in the environment, which can and probably will find their way in again sooner or later.

@Chris etc,
I suspect that there is a real association of autism, and more serious symptomologies within the spectrum, with GI issues mostly for one reason: Any GI problem is a source of stress, and that stress can and probably will contribute to autistic behaviors. If the problem can be treated medically, it should not be surprising if ASD symptomology improves.

By David N. Brown (not verified) on 11 Jun 2012 #permalink


What in the gut could possibly cause the brain to ‘misfunction’ for lack of a better term?

As I recall the idea is that damage to the gut (by measles virus, parasites or whatever) makes it 'leaky' allowing partially digested food, such as gluten, to enter the bloodstream and affect the developing brain by mimicking neurotransmitters. 'Leaky gut syndrome' is blamed for a wide variety of symptoms in CAM circles, and ties in with notions of gut dysbiosis, intestinal candida, parasitic infections and toxemia, which are all common CAM preoccupations. Needless to say there doesn't seem to be a great deal of evidence for any of this.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

Meg, the 'gut disorders cause autism' claim is part of the belief in Leaky Gut Syndrome. According to Wakefield, the MMR vaccine causes minute holes in the intestines which allow evil Toxic Proteins to escape into the bloodstream, head straight for the brain and mess up the neurons there.

I just had to let rip after I read this which includes:
" I would challenge any of you parents to try the MMS protocol for even one month and see the hoards of worms come out of them, then watch the clarity and vibrance your child experiences….the words that come from their mouths, the appropriateness of their actions…they sleep, their bowels normalize, they smile, they speak and they laugh, but this time, for the RIGHT reasons."
I got all Science Mom on her behind.
I wonder if there so ready to boast about their abuse beyond the internet and quackfests?

Worms, you say? Autistic children are wormy? I have to wonder why a parent who believes her child has worms would not need to be de-wormed herself. After all, it's clear the child and parent are exposed to the same environment and would both be subject to the same parasites.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

I read the first line of that quote:
"I would challenge any of you parents to try the MMS protocol for even one month"
And thought it would be good to stop there.

By Cynical Pediatrician (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

As I have commented elsewhere, the parallels are surprisingly similar between this behaviour by parents of autistic kids and the way in which certain churches "brought up" the kids under their charge.

Mental and physical indignities, punishments and purgations, all in the name of Christ and all done with "love" and a clear conscience because it would create a better, purer end product. The end justifies the means.

Many of the "good intentioned" perpetrators of this abuse have had to finally recant and the church has had to make reparation for the awful acts commited in its name.

Would be that people realise that some of these autism cures are tantamount to the same thing, and that the perpetrators are of the same mind set and need to be exposed for what they are.

"hoards [sic] of worms"?

Shoot the pets, I say.
And definitely no dolphin swimming (have you seen what nasty things they get up to?)

I don't mean to sound like a fascist, but I don't understand how anyone could really consider a human with basically no higher brain activity to be a "person," other than in the broadest legal sense. That seems just a little too close to those "fetal personhood" bills to me, frankly, or like saying Terri Schiavo was alive in any meaningful sense. Human, yes, but a person? You must think of personhood very differently than I do, I guess, because it just seems to me that there's no there there.

I worry about Ashley Whoever's parents too, but probably for a completely different reason than you do.

By Interrobang (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

I would challenge any of you parents to try the MMS protocol for even one month and see the hoards of worms come out of them, then watch the clarity and vibrance your child experiences

From the experience I got with my own guts, I have no problem believing that one would have a feeling of clarity and vibrance after spending a few days on potty pot speed-dial.
To start with, the lack of proper feeding makes me light-headed; and most importantly, thanks goodness IT'S OVER.

Yeah, I bet these poor childs are very happy when Mom stop giving them those foul-smelling potions.

From Mephistopheles

I have to wonder why a parent who believes her child has worms would not need to be de-wormed herself.

As the happy owner of a (now late) cat who regularly brought back wriggling guests from his countryside forays, I completely agree. Let's say we quickly learned to improve our hygiene.
My mom used to buy two deworming products: one for the cat, one for the humans. Synchronized cure for all the family.

By Heliantus (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

I got all Science Mom on her behind

Heh, you certainly did. These parents are monsters.

@ Chris, sadly I don't think these are sock puppets with the exception of the one who commented on my blog and "Autumn" who commented on Autismum's blog. This one thinks that "our immune systems" produce chlorine dioxide so MMS is good for us. These mental contortions are excruciating for me to watch.

@ Dawry, oh don't worry, I corrected her statements, for all the good it will do for someone intent on "fixing" her child.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

@ Science Mom

This one thinks that “our immune systems” produce chlorine dioxide so MMS is good for us.

And ants produce formic acid up to 1% in concentration, so that's why ants are immune to acid. No, wait, they are not, they "spit" their acid at one another, with deadly effects.

Actually, as I pointed earlier on this thread, our white cells do produce hypochlorite to destroy the organisms they phagocyted. But funny enough, our white cells are careful not to release it outside of their phagolyzosome.

My immunology is a bit rusty, but I remember dimly an immune disorder, something like "phagocytose frustration", where white cells fail to phagocyte an allergen absorbed on other cells' surface and will then release the content of their lyzosome on the poor cells. The results are not pleasant.

By Heliantus (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

lilady, et al,

The people we see ranting and raving about the evils of vaccination are lost to reason. We probably have no real chance of reaching them. But when we speak to them on the Internet, we are heard by more than just them. We are heard by the lurkers. For every one person who pontificates about the wonders of and who rants and raves about the horrible evil skeptics, there are probably dozens listening. They are the ones you don't want to put on the defensive. It doesn't matter what you do -- you cannot reach the ranters. But you *can* reach the people who have gone to them for advice.

Besides which, you're "othering" them. While this has a long and venerable tradition, it doesn't get you any closer to understanding why people fall into woo, which means it also doesn't get you any closer to *preventing* more people from falling into woo. Yes, it does allow for a nice cathartic rant, but if a nice cathartic rant is all you're after, maybe we've got different objectives here.

And yes, the ranters hate us. Is that any excuse for us to do the same to them? If it's so wrong, why should we do it too? What is the *point*?

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

Oh wow, I completely forgot about Wakefield inventing "Leaky Gut Syndrome." It got lost in all of his other fabrications.

Actually, as I pointed earlier on this thread, our white cells do produce hypochlorite to destroy the organisms they phagocyted. But funny enough, our white cells are careful not to release it outside of their phagolyzosome.

Yes but let's not let that inconvenient fact get in the way of bleaching their kids. They also ignore the health detriments of high blood levels of myeloperoxidase when that does happen. The whole antioxidants are beneficial thing seems to have escaped them.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

@ Chris:

Like I always say- Andy's "project"- the gift that keeps on giving**

If you think about it, he's only in his mid-50s... hmmm... let's see, white guy, well-to-do, married... should have a life expectancy... well, he'll probably be around for many, many years.
I doubt he'll stop spouting his nonsense as long as he has breath in him
Aren't we sceptics lucky?

** like the clap

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

I didn't see anyone else mention this regarding the petition by Emily Willingham and the counter petition Jim Humble. While Emily Willingham' petition has a reasonable goal of 2500 signatures, I notice that Jim Humble has the lofty (and seriously out of touch) goal of a million signatures. The hubris of that figure is astounding.

... which makes the current 45 signatures (which has not changed since I last looked yesterday) look a bit pathetic.

By stewartt1982 (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

Trying to say it isn’t bleach is like saying an El Camino isn’t a car, because it has a truck’s bed.

I think they've modified things so that the prohibition is construed by license-plate class, but I've heard at least one legitimate recounting of someone getting ticketed for driving an El Camino on Chicago's Lake Shore Drive (which forbids truck traffic for most of its length).

like the clap

The Clap is a rousing acoustic guitar solo by Steve Howe that shows amazing virtuosity, and yes I do like it.

Oh, you must mean the venereal disease. Never mind.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

… which makes the current 45 signatures (which has not changed since I last looked yesterday) look a bit pathetic.

Especially since some of the signatures are surely jokes. For instance, I saw one by someone listing himself as "Credulous Nimrod."

@Calli Arcale -

*claps hands quietly*

Nicely done.
- pD

By passionlessDrone (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

Credulous Nimrod? Now that's funny. :-D It about sums up the usefulness of such petitions.

I've gotten pretty cynical about the value of change.org petitions, but I went and signed this one anyway. I think it's an absolute disgrace that folks like Humble are able to get away with this, when it's causing real, tangible harm. I think there is a case for getting Child Protective Services involved in some of these; when the child is suffering serious side-effects such as vomiting and diarrhea and getting no gain whatsoever yet the parents persist, that should support a case for medical neglect.

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

@Chris -

Oh wow, I completely forgot about Wakefield inventing “Leaky Gut Syndrome.” It got lost in all of his other fabrications.

Alterations of the intestinal barrier in patients with autism spectrum disorders and in their first-degree relatives.

A high percentage of abnormal IPT values were found among patients with autism (36.7%) and their relatives (21.2%) compared with normal subjects (4.8%). Patients with autism on a reported gluten-casein-free diet had significantly lower IPT values compared with those who were on an unrestricted diet and controls. Gastrointestinal symptoms were present in 46.7% of children with autism: constipation (45.5%), diarrhoea (34.1%), and others (alternating diarrhoea/constipation, abdominal pain, etc: 15.9%). FC was elevated in 24.4% of patients with autism and in 11.6% of their relatives; it was not, however, correlated with abnormal IPT value

Note: This study contained more patients with autism than all other tests of permiability combined.

Food for thought.

- pD

By passionlessDrone (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

@ Calli, yes there is a cathartic element to my declaration. But there is also this, these beastly parents have turned this into a pissing contest by crowing endlessly on about how they LOVE their children because LOOK how much we are doing to HELP them and you're not. I'm fed up and yea, when the stakes are this high, I'm calling bullshit on their professed love for their children.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink


I completely forgot about Wakefield inventing “Leaky Gut Syndrome.”

I don't think he invented it, I pretty sure he plugged into an existing set of beliefs.

BTW though sodium chlorite and chlorine dioxide do kill pathogens, they do so at a concentration that it is toxic to humans. Here are some ballpark calculations I have posted here before that are perhaps worth repeating:

I calculate that the minimum dose of MMS required to achieve blood concentrations of chlorine dioxide required to kill any pathogens is going to be a toxic, close to lethal dose.

Since MMS is 28% sodium chlorite that's 28 grams in 100 ml
0.28 grams or 280 milligrams in 1 ml
There are about 28 drops in 1 ml
So 1 drop contains about 10 mg sodium chlorite

Assume a blood volume of 5 litres and that all the sodium chlorite ends up converted to chlorine dioxide and dissolved in the blood (in fact only a small percentage is likely to end up in the blood)
1 drop of MMS, or 10 mg sodium chlorite diluted in 5 liters
2 mg per litre
0.002 grams per litre
0.0002 grams per 100 ml
Which is a 0.0002% solution
15 drops (the recommended dose that should be built up to) dissolved in 5 liters of blood would be a 0.003% or 30 mg/l solution (a little lower than that when converted to chlorine dioxide, and a lot lower when you consider that not all will be absorbed, but I'll ignore that).

What concentration of chlorine dioxide is required to kill Staphylococcus aureus, for example?

"In MIC test the lowest MIC value of chlorine dioxide gel (0.02% w/v) was obtained for S. aureus, S. mitis and S. constellatus. The other bacteria and pool samples of dental biofilm indicated slightly higher MIC values (0.2% w/v)" MIC = minimum inhibitory concentration

So if you ingested 15 drops of MMS, assuming that all of it was converted into chlorine dioxide and absorbed into the bloodstream, the concentration would be at least 10 times and more likely 100 times too low to inhibit (not kill) Staphylococcus aureus.

LD50 in rats is 165 mg/kg, so assuming humans react similarly (rats tend to be more resistant to toxins than humans), the lethal dose in a 70 kg human, would be about 12,000 mg, or 12 grams, which is about 80 times the recommended dose of 150 mg (15 drops at 10mg per drop). A suicide attempt in which 10g of sodium chlorite (NaClO2) taken orally caused refractory methemoglobinemia and nearly fatal kidney failure has been recorded.

So the minimum amount of MMS required to achieve a blood concentration high enough to kill S. aureus is dangerously close to the lethal dose. In practice, as not all the sodium chlorite will be converted to chlorine dioxide, and not all the chlorine dioxide will be absorbed, the blood concentrations achievable with the prescribed 15 drops are likely to be much lower than I calculated. I can't see any way that MMS can kill blood borne pathogens at a dose that would not make a person very ill or even kill them.

Compare that to ciprofloxacin (chosen as it is a favorite bete noire in CAM circles) which has a MIC for S. aureus of less than 4 μg/ml = 4 mg/l
Assuming a dose of 500 mg and a blood volume of 5 liters, that gives a blood concentration of about 100 mg/l which is 25 times higher than the MIC for S. aureus (again in practice not all will be absorbed or be bioavailable, but this is only a rough estimate).

Ciprofloxacin is also far less toxic than MMS. LD50 for MMS in rats is 165 mg/kg, LD50 for ciprofloxacin in mice and rats is in excess of 5000 mg/kg. Assuming humans are equally susceptible a lethal dose of MMS in a 70 kg human would be 12 grams, a lethal dose of ciprofloxacin greater than 350 grams.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

I found this article on the prosecution of some snake oil vendors up in the pacific northwest. The comment section is awash in the mindset of those in thrall to altie woo. I imagine that they pretty much just made up all of the many "miracles" they have sworn they witnessed, since there are no names or citations for a single one of these stories. They're like faith healers and I wonder how many of them are deluded and how many are just charlatans since quite a few of the most vociferous defenders of MMS seem to be selling it. What a surprise.

I also discovered that I use Chlorine Dioxide twice a day in the form of CloSys mouth rinse. My dentist did however go to great pains to tell me not to fekking swallow it!

By Pareidolius (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

"But when we speak to them on the Internet, we are heard by more than just them. We are heard by the lurkers. For every one person who pontificates about the wonders of and who rants and raves about the horrible evil skeptics, there are probably dozens listening. They are the ones you don’t want to put on the defensive. It doesn’t matter what you do — you cannot reach the ranters. But you *can* reach the people who have gone to them for advice."

Precisely Calli...Of course the abusers are "unreachable" and I do realize that there are plenty of "lurkers" including the groupies at AoA (They have publicly pilloried me a number of times).

I would hope that some of the fence-sitters, who include the "enablers" (spouses, close friends and neighbors), would be taking positive steps to stop the abusing parents.

Dozens of science bloggers have described the properties of MMS and the banning of the chemical, when used for treatment of any human disease or disorder, by the FDA, Canada and the European Europe. Few have come out strongly against the abusing parents. The abusing parents "are not misunderstood", "they do not have their children's welfare as a priority" and they are not "good people who are capable of doing evil acts"...they are abusers...every bit as abusive as the pervert down the block who feeds a child poison and jams a catheter into their rectum to give a child a toxic enema.

I also posted in exquisite detail the awful pain, the cramping, the damage to delicate tissue and the abject fear that a child feels when subjected to these ritualistic repeated purgings, with the hope that anyone contemplating MMS treatments for any disorder, will reconsider. I have some "credentials" to post this information, as the parent of multiple handicapped and medically fragile child who underwent many medically-indicated, sometimes painful, diagnostic tests and procedures...and as a registered nurse.

Calli, stop lecturing me, stop labeling my posts as "rants" and stop assuming that I do not understand what motivates these abusers. We have differing opinions about what constitutes parental abuse.

anything other than pharmaceuticals

Is there any reason bleach isn't a pharmaceutical beyond the fact that SBM doesn't use it as a drug?

By Andreas Johansson (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

@Andreas Johansson: the reason bleach isn't a pharmaceutical is because it is toxic to humans and doesn't have proven benefits that outweigh its side effects.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

More relevantly for this discussion, it is advocated by "good people" not us Evul Farma Shilz.

@Julian Frost: I don't think it works that way. Frex, drugs that get withdrawn due to unexpected side-effects are still considered pharmaceuticals aren't they?

@Beamup: That's little more than a restatement of my question (if Evul Farma Shilz were advocating it, Evul Farma and its minions in the medical profession would soon enough be hawking it).

Put another way, is there a way of dividing biologically active chemicals into pharmaceuticals and nonpharmaceuticals other than whether the medical establishment is in favour of its medicinal use? (Well, besides nonpharmaceuticals = what I like, pharmaceuticals = what you like, you moneygrubbing pharma shill scum, which I sort of suspect is the distinction Obradovic uses.)

By Andreas Johansson (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink


There is no peer reviewed research indicating that bleach is in any way a compound which serves a pharmaceutical purpose, as the MMS fans claim.

Furthermore, with 'homemade' MMS being promoted, you're running the risk of impurities and other toxic by-products forming in your solution.

Ingesting bleach or administering it via an enema is simply stupid. It is damaging to tissues, it is damaging to the liver and kidneys.

The potential for death is high - if the concentration is calculated wrong, you're looking at a very painful poisoning.

I’m getting the feeling I can’t say this enough times. I introduced my child to milk, and saw the slough off. The (nastiest ever! ) diapers tested positive for blood. The same thing these “Miracle” users are seeing.

It’s not parasites! Worms or whatever! It’s your own child’s formerly normally functioning cells, which you just destroyed with that “treatment.”

I cannot comprehend how anyone thinks that this process benefits the child.


Swallowing a kilogram of ibuprofen is also stupid, yet ibuprofen is a pharmaceutical.

It seems to me the only reason ibuprofen is a pharmaceutical and MMS isn't is that the former has legitimate uses as a drug and the later does not. This would obviously render Obradovic's complaint nonsensical - she'd essentially be saying "you only use stuff that works, you bastards", which might be the implication of her statement but hardly what she means to say. So I'm asking if there's some reasonable sense (as opposed as a situational one made up by Obradovic) in which MMS still wouldn't be a pharmaceutical if it worked and was legitimately prescribed (as Obradovic thinks it should).

I don't see that lilady's links answers this in the affirmative. They define disinfectant and antiseptic in terms of what they're used for, with would go nicely with an operational definition of "pharmaceutical", roughly = drug prescribed by mainstream medicine.

By Andreas Johansson (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

As someone else pointed out, pharmaceuticals are tested and then marketed after they've been proven to be a successful treatment for a medical condition. I'm not sure what MMS treats other than the icky green stuff on the inside wall of your swimming pool.


A kg of ibuprofen is lethal. A very painful death, as well.

Pharmaceuticals are researched and tested, in vitro and in vivo. We can anticipate possible side effects of pharmaceuticals in this manner (along with comparing them to comparable compounds) It's also true that we cannot predict every drug interaction possible.

That's why we have monitoring - drugs that are known to have side effects (liver failure, for example) are prescribed sparingly or avoided in favor of another type of drug, which performs the same way, but not as damaging.

Diclofenac is one such drug. It's a wonderful NSAID, but it can cause liver damage. So, you don't prescribe it for folks who have impaired liver function, etc.

MMS has no such 'safety net' to fall back upon. It is not regulated - you can find 'homemade MMS' recipes on the internet - which means those individuals mixing their own run the risk of toxic impurities (chlorite) in their MMS.

There is simply no reason to damage your child's GI tract with a bleach product (and it is a bleach product) which will give no benefit to the child. It's abuse, plain and simple.

So I’m asking if there’s some reasonable sense (as opposed as a situational one made up by Obradovic) in which MMS still wouldn’t be a pharmaceutical if it worked and was legitimately prescribed (as Obradovic thinks it should).

No. There is not.


You mean you haven't been banned from AoA?

Clearly you aren't trying hard enough.

Re:Mephistopheles O'Brien@12:47 pm

"Disco Jesus" from "Catch The Clap" is better.

Dance dance dance Disco Jesus.
You ought to see him do the hustle,
Up there on that funky cross.

By Roger Kulp (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

The abusers who claim to have researched MMS have never found the substance in a PDR or within a drug manufacturer's prescribing information sheet.

Perhaps the abusers missed this Material Data Safety Sheet..


When anyone locates a MSDS for Ibuprofen, let me know.

@Darwy: I don't have any children, and if I did I'd rather swallow that kilogram of ibuprofen than "treat" them with bleach enemas. I do not understand why you seem to think I need to be told that torturing children is a bad idea or that bleach is bleach.

What I'm questioning is Obradovic (who does think torturing children is a good idea) 's "anything other than pharmaceuticals" line.

@Beamup: Thank you.

By Andreas Johansson (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

@ Roger...I didn't state that I have ever posted there :-)


I was using 'you' in the 'general' sense, and not referring to YOU specifically.

Det er ligesom at bruge ordet 'man' i stedet for 'du/dig' men der findes kun 'you' på engelsk, med mindre man bruger 'one' som er lidt gammeldags.

Obviously, it's not a pharnaceutical because it wasn't developed, patented by or sold to enrich the coffers of a Big Pharma conspirator like Merck, Glaxo, Pfizer, etc.

I really don't believe their thinking goes any farther than that.

@Darwy: Ah, okay. I'll point out though that it's very easy to assume something is directed specifically at you when it starts with @[your name]!

(Yes, I realize the irony of the general "you" above.)

By Andreas Johansson (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

I agree with Krebiozen about the leaky gut syndrome- AJW made use of GI fixations already widespread in Woo-topia.

Some of these crappy ideas are Candidiasis as a systemic illness and its psychological symptomatology - very popular 20 years ago ( Quackwatch has loads on yeast which I pointed out to Liz recently @ RI;
also see their "Be Wary of 'Fad' Diagnoses" and the Index of Fad Diagnoses, which lists 'leaky gut','dubious allergies' et al)

There have always been speculations about toxic GI conditions and ways to'de-tox' them.
Raphael Kellman regards the GI as a second brain.**
AJW has been recently quoted ( from AutismOne by an AoA commenter IIRC) saying that the "Brain bone is connected to the gut bone" or some other example of frighteningly bad prose

** true if you have...... ( complete the phrase)

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

The exact comments from two of the now 46 signatories.

Credulous Nimrod

Just because this is exactly the same chemical as bleach doesn't mean Emily should call it bleach! This is because of reasons. And quantum mechanics. And I trust that Jim Humble would never lie to desperate parents just because he's selling this product for a profit! Enough of the medical establishment and their "science" and their "first, do no harm." We want pointless feel-good actions that take advantage of our sadness and our scientific illiteracy!


Darius Xym

I'm signing this petition because I just walked into a wall and I feel a bit confused. In my temporarily impaired state I think it's a fabulous idea to administer concentrated industrial bleach to the rectums of vulnerable children to cure a brain disorder. It all makes perfect sense and anyone who thinks it is all criminally irresponsible and dangerous quackery promoted by one of the most vile hucksters should try walking into a wall themselves to see if alters their opinion.

Humble seems to have overestimated the number of MMS fans willing to put their money where their mouths are. On his "Genesis II-Church of Health and Healing" (gag) he's begging for money to build a war chest for the legal fight against the FDA. The response, as he reports himself, has been less than enthusiastic.

Over a week ago I sent out an urgent plea to donate to the MMS Defense fund. This fund has been set up to fight the FDA and their attempts to make criminals out of people involved with MMS.

To date, the fund has received roughly $10,000.00 in donations. It isn't nearly enough.

The fund needs close to $2 million to turn this fight into an all-out war against the FDA and what they are attempting to do to our health choices and MMS.

We don't have months to play around with this,
it has to be now.

Of the 175,000 people I sent the alert out to, 200 donated. First, thank you. Now, the rest of you, if you would give just $10.00 each, we would hit our mark and the FDA would tremble.

If we don't succeed in achieving this goal, all could be lost. In the end, "we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."

Don't let your inaction allow the FDA to take away our personal health freedoms or MMS. Take a stand and give today. Tomorrow may be too late.

By Marc Stephens … (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

Credulous Nimrod

Best Puritan name ever.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

Denice, just FYI the gut really does have a well developed intrinsic nervous system. It's frequently mentioned in GI physiology circles as having as many neurons as the spinal cord.

Of course, the last thing that those sensitive little neurons would like is a bleach bath...

By sheepmilker (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

LizDitz @5:30 --

"This is because of reasons. And quantum mechanics. "


By palindrom (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

Liz Ditz

Grey ops do you think?!

By sheepmilker (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

p0 back, and more bleach... For those who crochet, any chance of obtaining something that looks like real straw to make a brainless straw man?

Thanks to Science Mom for sharing that amazing e-mail with us.

"Amanzo, mother of Liam (3)June 11, 2012 9:03 PM

MMS is NOT bleach! If anyone would take the time to understand the chemistry behind the substance, you would have proper information to THEN evaluate."

True, MMS (28% sodium chlorite in water) is not "bleach" (3 - 6% sodium hypochlorite in water); it is much worse. Chlorite is a more powerful oxidising agent than hypochlorite.

"Chlorine dioxide is SAFE in the ways we use it with children and people."

If it is diluted to the point where it is safe to ingest (or use as an enema), then MMS (sodium chlorite) is too dilute to have an impact on bacteria, fungi, parasites, etc. On the other hand, if it is used in concentrations adequate to inhibit or kill pathogens, it is far too concentrated to ingest. What part of "not for internal use" don't they get?

"It is a compound produced by our immune system."

Yes, in very small quantities in a membrane-bound vesicle in cells that have shortened lifespans due to oxidative stress. This is not a reason to irrigate the gut with a sodium chlorite solution.

"I will help restore my child’s body to health – because I love him and want the best for his future."

Good intentions are no shield against bad decisions.

"I believe in MMS and Kerri Rivera."

"Believing" without understanding is one of the most common ways good people trick themselves into bad decisions.

I don't doubt that "Amanzo" loves her child and wants him to get better - what I doubt are her choices.


By Prometheus (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

@ sheepmilker:

I know... thus the well-known GI symptoms related to stress et al- which I -btw- know about all-too-well
However, the woo version is much more scifi than SB

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

@ Nashira

"I wouldn’t present institutionalization as though it automatically guarantees sexual abuse whereas home is safe and sound, because that’s demonstrably not true. I also think it does a pretty big disservice to non-parental carers by implying that they are all predators waiting to pounce."

That would be a strawman argument, because I said none of those things. However, I do think that in an institutional environment as opposed to home care, disabled children would be exposed to a wider range of caretakers who have the potential to be abusive. I also think that the parents' cared for their daughter in this case, and wanted to provide good care for her.

"While I recognize that Ashley’s parents are in a difficult situation, every time I read their thoughts, I feel like they just didn’t want a woman’s body interfering with the illusion of their perpetual infant."

Regardless of how you feel, strong arguments can be made for each of the procedures as ways to increase Ashley's quality of life in some way, not necessarily as a way of fulfilling some strange need of the parents. Also, why do you think that Ashley, an infant mentally, would be better served with an adult body?

@ Queen K.

"The argument can certainly be made in favor of sterilization of the child. Personally, I think it’s a slippery slope, but that’s just me. I can see why the parents would worry about a pregnancy."

Pregnancy, menstruation, uterine cancer (higher risk from the estrogen therapy http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22244658)
It wasn't all about sterilization and evil eugenics (slippery slope stuff).

"the parents have to protect their child from everyone who comes in the house."

This is true. My question would then be, where do you think it is more likely that a child will be better protected, at home by their parents or in an institution?

Also, minor detail, the parents stated that the breast bud removal had a tertiary benefit of avoidance of sexualization of Ashley towards her caregivers. Not the therapy to halt growth. They never made a "small size as protection" argument that I saw. The lack of sexualization in itself seems to be a very small part of the reasoning for the overall procedure, and attempting to tear holes in it while ignoring the rest of the procedure seems to me, counterproductive.

lilady @ 4:24 pm

When anyone locates a MSDS for Ibuprofen, let me know.

The compound (i.e., minus fillers) is sold by chemical suppliers, so it has to have one. I have however been unsuccessful at finding an actual MSDS to which I can link.

But you know what? Sand has an MSDS, and if you believe what's on it, sand is quite hazardous!

One thing we know.

These parents are saving the household budget for more important things. They obviously don't need to waste money on child safety locks for the cupboards holding all those dishwasher and other household cleaner items.

Save some money. Buy more bleach. Put it anywhere you like.

When anyone locates a MSDS for Ibuprofen, let me know.

I just copy-pastaed "MSDS for Ibuprofen" into the search thingy and poked the little magnifier icon. Guess what! Google gave me several pages of links to ibuprofen MSDSs! Magic! Don't you wish you could do the same? ;-) (I hope my legpulling makes it through the lack of preview.)

Andreas Johansson June 12, 2:40 pm

Is there any reason bleach isn’t a pharmaceutical beyond the fact that SBM doesn’t use it as a drug?

MMS is not a pharmaceutical only because the manufacturers and suppliers haven't applied to the FDA for pharmaceutical status, or even for API listing. It is listed by the FDA as a food-prep-grade pesticide, not for human consumption.
Currently, the Genesis II woogroup suggests using technical grade NaClO2 (EPA regulated as a pesticide) with USP citric acid. That's because NaClO2 is not available in a human-consumable grade; the Tech (and lower) grades admit to containing 0.1% Pb and Hg (per MSDS, not any real analysis, and per EPA poopsheet.). The EPA registered acidified sodium chlorite (ASC) pesticide is normally (it seems) made a point-of-use from technical-grade NaClO2 and USP-grade citric acid.
In all legal use cases for ASC, the EPA requires that the ASC be washed from anything that might be consumed. With the wash-off requirements in p[lace, ASC is also recognized by USDA and FDA as food-preparation pesticides (never for human or animal consumption).
There are no upsides and many downsides to listing MMS as a pharmaceutical or listing NaClO2 as an API.
The pharmaWOOtical clowns would have to give up their pretense of persecution by the FDA.
The substances they peddle would be required to meet rigorous standards for strength and purity (standards they do not currently meet).
The labelling on the substances would have to be accurate.
The manufacturing processes of the API and the pharmaceutical would have to be approved for controllability and repeatability, and be supervised for proper operation. Just think what that would do to the MMS manufacturing facilities masquerading as churches.
If you can get a drum of pesticide grade chlorite for a couple of bucks, why would you want to spend more to get a drum of safe, human-grade stuff?

Gee, I wonder what the EPA would think about unlicensed manufacture, sale, storage, transportation (in interstate commerce?) and off-label use of a licensed pesticide?
Without preview, I also wonder what this comment is going to look like.

By Bill Price (not verified) on 12 Jun 2012 #permalink

The CAS for Ibuprofen is 15687-27-1

It has an oral LD 50 (rat) of 636 mg/kg.

If you follow http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/united-states.html

and enter the CAS #, it should give you the option for the MSDS.

I could get a link to it, but it'll be hellatiously long and ugly and I don't know that it'll actually come through the filter.

Hi, I am the Fielding Hurst you quoted above. My daughter had major gastrointestinal issues that diet and some other minor treatments have helped immensely. That said, there is a massive difference between a special diet and ingesting bleach. We avoid gluten, casein, sugar, dyes, preservatives and basically cook from scratch. This is more of just eating right instead of some vast treatment. That said, the never-ending runny poops stopped with diet interventions. Behavioral improvements are marginal at best, but no more runny poops and finally potty trained after a decade is enough for me. I got tired of arguing about MMS, but there is another heated discussion over at http://autismwars.wordpress.com/2012/06/04/mms/ where folks don't seem to grasp the difference between the safe levels of chlorine dioxide in drinking water and ingesting MMS directly. To be honest I really can't decipher all of the math flying around on mg/l, concentrations, and MMS dosage, but gather they are not comparing apples to apples. The also point to the following 30 year old study on drinking water as proof that MMS is totally safe, CONTROLLED CLINICAL EVALUATIONS OF CHLORINE DIOXIDE, CHLORITE AND CHLORATE IN MAN BY JUDITH R. LUBBERS, SUDHA CHAUAND AND JOSEPH R.BIANCHINE.

By Fielding J. Hurst (not verified) on 13 Jun 2012 #permalink

Unfortunately Mr. Hunt the math matters.

Your study http://www.vce.org/VT:ANR:DECPublicRecords/chlorinedioxideinman.pdf

Administered 5 mg/L. If my math doesn't fail me, that's a 0.5% solution

If you're administering a 22.4% solution of MMS, that's almost 49X stronger than what was used in that study.

The point of that study was to demonstrate that chlorine dioxide was suitable for use for water purification. It was not evaluated for theraputic uses or chronic toxicity.

If you can't grasp the difference between a 0.5% solution and something 49 times stronger - make yourself a cup of coffee using instant coffee. One with 0.5 teaspoons of grounds and the other with 49. You might get the point.

And my apologies, that should be Mr. Hurst.

That'll teach me for starting typing without my glasses.

I realize that MMS is much stronger, which is what I was attempting to say. I have just seen lot's o' math on mms dosage compared amount in drinking water to the point that my brain is in tilt mode. :-) Slide over to that Autism Wars link and educate them. I believe the Bishop Kerri herself is over there. Chlorine dioxide looks to dissipates with time in regular drinking water too which would seem to be an important factor compared to knocking back a fresh brew of ye old magic bleach.

By Fielding J. Hurst (not verified) on 13 Jun 2012 #permalink

Hello Mr. Hurst and a big thanks to you for pointing out to the AoA crowd that bleaching your children is never a good thing. Even if your keen sense of the obvious did shut down the thread. Pardon me for saying this but trying to teach those at autismwars anything regarding rudimentary chemistry, immunology, and biology is a perfect exercise in futility. It's best to watch the mental gymnastics competition from afar.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 13 Jun 2012 #permalink

Administered 5 mg/L. If my math doesn’t fail me, that’s a 0.5% solution
Actually, math failed you by 3 orders of magnitude. That's a 0.0005% solution, 5 ppm.

To put these concentrations into relation, a single drop (0.3 ml) of MMS in a cup of water gives you about 400 mg/l concentration. 80 times higher than the safe level determined in the publication quoted by Hurst.

"A kg of ibuprofen is lethal."
A kg (2 1/4 lb or thereabouts) of anything is lethal, if delivered to the head at significant velocities.

David N. Brown
Mesa, Arizona

By David N. Brown (not verified) on 13 Jun 2012 #permalink

With regards to Jim Humble's whinge:

This fund has been set up to fight the FDA and their attempts to make criminals out of people involved with MMS.

it must be said that the FDA doesn't need to make criminals out of people involved with MMS.

From here we see that:

The Federal Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act (CAPTA), (42 U.S.C.A. §5106g), as amended by the Keeping Children and Families Safe Act of 2003, defines child abuse and neglect as, at minimum:

- Any recent act or failure to act on the part of a parent or caretaker which results in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse or exploitation; or

- An act or failure to act which presents an imminent risk of serious harm.

Based on that legal definition people using MMS on their children pretty much meet the criteria for being criminals, their good intentions notwithstanding.

By Composer99 (not verified) on 13 Jun 2012 #permalink

So... maybe I'm a bit slow on the uptake I mean I'm more politically than biologically inclined but can someone point out to me where these 'autism causing worms' originate? Are they from the mothers during pregnancy? Are the mothers infested too and should we force feed them bleach drinks, baths and enemas? Are they in the air? Perhaps we should work something a bit more along the lines of prevention if so!!!!

Or perhaps... no... it couldnt be. THE ANTI-VAXERS WE'RE RIGHT!!! If vacines cause autism still its big pharma inserting these evil mind altering worms into the vacines so they can incubate in our children, and when they mature they assert control grouping up to head to a power station to feed on the electricity. Whereupon they will grow exponentially in size bursting out of the child! It'll be like a bad gozzila movie: 'Autzilla vs The Giant Pharma Worms!!!'


But yea lets have that please be nice to know what these worms are (like classification not just 'worms') and where they originate from. I mean if people are getting them flushing out their children with their 'stay at home' bleach kits then we must have had ample time to study them.

Fielding J Hurst:

Chlorine dioxide looks to dissipates with time in regular drinking water too which would seem to be an important factor compared to knocking back a fresh brew of ye old magic bleach.

I keep fish at home in a tank; if an aquarist doesn't have access to enough distilled or deionized water to fill the tank, an acceptable substitute is usually to fill it with tap water and wait 24 hours for the chlorine to evaporate. Chlorine is rarely the only thing in there, of course, so you may need to various treatments for those. This is also something familiar to anybody who has a swimming pool; you don't just add chlorine once. You have to add more on a regular basis, because it doesn't stick around.

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 14 Jun 2012 #permalink


You're absolutely right. Unit fail on my part, I calculated as 5 g/l and not 5 mg/l.


No more posting late at night for me!

Those out there who defend the use of mms or use it on your disabled child, why don't you show us who object to this practice how wrong we are? Why don't you give yourself an mms enema, then tell us all how great an experience it was?

With regards to the disagreement between lilady & ScienceMom on the one hand and Calli Arcade on the other as to whether parents subjecting their children to MMS really love them or not:

Without knowing the inner world of such parents, it is IMO a causality error to work back from action to motive: inferring "these parents do not love their children" from "these parents use MMS on their children" does not follow unless you can also show that they are insincere in their belief that MMS will help their children (rather than mistaken, which on the evidence we already know they are).

By way of analogy, anyone on this forum who has consistently used fossil-fuel-based transportation (whether personal or mass) for several years, including myself, has contributed materially to processes which we know have caused, are causing, and will continue to cause harm to the livelihood of others (e.g. climate changes exacerbating flooding in Pakistan or drought in Texas in the past, declining aquaculture productivity from ocean acidification, and loss of infrastructure from expected sea level rise). That said, it simply does not follow from this that all such people hate Pakistani farmers, Texas ranchers, or people who live on low-lying coastlines.

Bottom line: IMO Calli is correct in demurring on the notion that we can conclude these parents don't love their children, even though (as far as I can tell) all parties agree that they have engaged in criminally-actionable child abuse.

By Composer99 (not verified) on 14 Jun 2012 #permalink

@ Composer 99: I never stated anything about the parental love angle...although I did comment that such *love*, that parents use an excuse to abuse their kids, is perverse and twisted. That type of *love* has caused parents to whup them into submission. That type of *love* blinds them to their children recoiling from another oral dose/another enema that causes cramping, puking and watery blood-filled bowel purges.

MMS *treatments* are actionable child abuse, committed by the very people who should be protective of their vulnerable children.

Todd Drezner at the Ho-Po has a blog up about MMS autism treatments. I have a post stuck in moderation there:


Go and post there, so that this *treatment* receives all the attention it deserves and, so that we might be a force to prevent other parents from inflecting abuse on their children.

Mu @ June 13, 4:23 pm

A 0.3 ml drop is really big drop. About 0.06 ml is more realistic. This quantity of 28% sodium chlorite solution would be 70mg/l for a 250 ml glass of water (a moderately large glass). Still well above safe levels.

@ Mary L

Therein sadly lies the crux of it. I imagine this would not have gone as far as it has (then again considering how at times it seems like we're only just stopping nigh short of a death cult maybe I'm wrong) if it was the parents who were taking these treatments.

If an autistic child dies to it its a 'tragedy'. But of course the parents were acting in their 'best interest' and they would have 'suffered a terrible life themselves and inflicting misery on their family' if they had continued to live.

I'm sorry to say it would take mass deaths to make these people even take a second glance at it. Sadly far more likely, especially with MMS, is highly debilitating future effects that won't be blamed. Naturally because it didnt happen instantly. You know... vaccines cause the change INSTANTLY so it MUST be them!!! But poison the kids and they suffer thyroid problems a couple years later it can't possibly be the parents fault no impossible.

@lilady - I am very sorry - have only been taking lessons for a month, so nowhere near there. Surprised myself though - I started with the lesson book sold in the store where the local string genius gives lessons and hated it. My years of classical-style piano training made playing little ditties and starting one string in first position, then another, then another (and then violin tab? Wow - that really sends your brain for a loop when you've been looking at numbering as fingering and not half-step location on a string) - anyhow, digressing there - I really hate "lesson book" style training. I've picked up a few things now that are specific to bowing practice, scale practice, double-stop practice, and hope that the instructor will tell me what other books might be useful and assign me a page or so in each one every week. With chronic illness I was spending too much time in the house and hope that maybe violin lessons will be a great distraction, keep my mind active and give me a good motive to delegate house keeping to team exercises as a family instead of just my job.

LOVE the link... would love to be able to do that one day. Doubt I'll have the 20 years of patience it will take to get to that level though. Amazing, and absolutely beautiful!

I am sorry Narad - I listen to so much of it (while attempting to find anything else to pay attention to) that I might have misremembered, or even just lumped it all together in my head as "the terrible overlords who are set to profit from our annihilation, etc." since it seems like with Alex Jones the groups kind of comingle by the time it's all said and done.

On MMS orally - hubby did it as a "supplement" for around six weeks last year, I think. He got to a point, though, where instead of feeling progressively better he began feeling significantly worse and the enthusiasm waned. It was then shelved for "emergencies only."

Now it's "aronia juice."

I don't know why, but the existence of violin tablature had never occurred to me. I think the instructional device and its focus on ever more complicated but set pieces led to stagnation of my interest in the banjo. Then again, I never had much of a head for music theory. And nobody wants to be a one-trick pony at a hootenanny.

Now it’s “aronia juice.”

I'd enthusiastically sample the Lithuanian chokeberry wine.

@ Mrs. Woo: I'm glad that you enjoyed my link to Midori. She is an amazing musician and she has her own foundation, which funds programs to provide musicians to teach kids instrumental music in NYC schools:


My mom played piano and my dad was a superb violinist and sometimes played a banjo and a mandolin. Dad probably also had "perfect pitch" and was able to play all the popular music, without purchasing sheet music. Needless to say, I never had their skills, but was self-taught to pick out some tunes on the piano.

Mr. Woo is fortunate that he stopped using MMS after a short period of time. Why not water down the bleach, before he has a *medical emergency*?

whether parents subjecting their children to MMS really love them or not:

I am willing to believe that the parents at Jonestown really loved their children even as they force-fed them the poisoned Kool-aid.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 14 Jun 2012 #permalink

@lilady - I think because he read the entire "book" by Mr. er um, the Bishop and was completely content to believe that there are different "types" of things that might be "mislabeled" bleach by those who "didn't understand" the amazing secret shared by the magnanimous Mr. Humble.

I like the watering it down idea. I should probably do the same thing with the industrial strength hydrogen peroxide while I'm thinking of it (he is assured by alt-med sites that it is regularly added to milk to pasteurize it, and if they don't use that they use the much more dangerous formaldehyde). ~shakes head~

So glad to hear that she is sharing her passion (and hopefully inspiring) with a new generation. I grew up with music in a lot of forms (various instruments and vocal) and everyone on both sides of my family had at least two years of piano lessons, with a few of us having them most of our childhood. It has only been the last few years that I really noticed that "not everyone" can play piano. Most churches I have been to are lucky if they have one pianist in a congregation. I still keep up on my piano and am playing with and co-directing our small church's fledgling praise band. The most exciting thing is the oldest person in it (aside from ancient me) is only 18. So neat to have young talent and encourage them to do a bit more with it. :)

At herr doktor bimler - I think that the force feeding Kool-aid in Jonestown is in some ways more excusable - it can be argued many were in a situation that removed from them much of their conscious will AND they were willing to drink the Kool-aid themselves even though they knew it would kill them. I really doubt the parents using this protocol are following it to the same degree themselves. I could be wrong though.

@ James,
"can someone point out to me where these ‘autism causing worms’ originate?"

Parasitic worm infestations usually start with eggs or larvae ingested by a host. Historically, the major vectors were untreated drinking water and improperly prepared meat, but improved sanitation has long since minimized these risks. In a modern urban setting, the one vector left is human fecal matter. I understand this is particularly an issue for infants and young children, who can reinfect themselves repeatedly, and probably extends to anyone in the same household. Gee, and the "curebies" don't seem to be saying ANYTHING about this...

David N. Brown

Mesa, Arizona

By David N. Brown (not verified) on 15 Jun 2012 #permalink

Maybe it's from attempts to treat their autistic children with fecal transplants?

From the site above:

editor’s note - please be aware that MMS did not fully cure this case of parasites.

"They congregate to survive," when discussing parasite eggs and deciding those were the tumors that caused her hysterectomy. Ummm... I didn't know that parasite eggs had that kind of ability (i.e., to move on their own will and/or "know" where other eggs would be to find them and bunch up)?

I do know that chicken eggs aren't near that smart...

Dingo - this sounds like the "cancer is fungus" nonseense in that it requires pathologists to be clueless bafoons who can't recognize fungus or worms.

By Marry Me, Mindy (not verified) on 16 Jun 2012 #permalink

About the so-called intestinal parasites:
a few years ago I adopted a 6 month old cat (large kitten?) who became really ill and produced a great deal of poo. .Of course, I took him to a vet who put a small sample into her magickal poo-analysis machine - *et voila*- he had coccidia - no worms. Now, it took this woman a few minutes to determine his problem which was treated successfully with medication over about 3 weeks.

So why is this not applicable to *humans*? Parasites are visible and can be categorised which will then determine treatment. This is easy stuff, not rocket science.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 16 Jun 2012 #permalink

Todd Drezner's blog on MMS treatment is still going strong:


I've replied to Ann Dachel and now a second time to Julie Obradovic who posted again to "explain" how she knew nothing of the treatment, continues to support the Quackfest, and (yet) felt that the science blogger was a big meanie.

There are no comments in support of MMS, many comments that condemn MMS and the parents who *treat* their children with bleach. Some on the comments also discuss the incestuous relationship between Generation Rescue, Autism One and AoA and their continued support of disgraced doctors, their quack treatments, AoA's defamatory articles and other tactics.

@Mrs. Woo,
" I didn’t know that parasite eggs had that kind of ability (i.e., to move on their own will and/or “know” where other eggs would be to find them and bunch up)? "

Sounds like exageration, but not complete fantasy. Parasite eggs are likely to occur in large numbers and high concentrations. They can also "cling" to surfaces, living things and movable objects quite tenaciously. For that matter, there are parasites that are known to alter a host's behavior for the parasites' purposes. All of which, once again, simply shows that if parasitic worms ARE around, simply ridding a host of the mature parasites is NOT going to be anywhere near enough to get rid of them.

David N. Brown

Mesa, Arizona

By David N. Brown (not verified) on 17 Jun 2012 #permalink

The motility of the infective stages of intestinal parasites is interesting.

Tape worm shed segments known as "proglottids" which are motile. Often these can be seen wriggling out of your pet's bum and are themselves mistaken for a worm, but they are just a small segment (maybe 2x5mm).

Strongyloides infection is by way of "free-living" motile rhabditiform larvae, rather than eggs. These larvae can live freely in the environment and move around a lot.

Just because there is one treatment that sounds crazy doesn't suddenly make them all crazy. I happen to have a child with autism with whom the biomedical approach is doing wonders for. Do you have any idea what its like to have a child going through this? I think MMS has become the thing that people against biomedical have grabbed hold of and ran with. Biomedical is all about diet and nutrition, and not pumping chemical pharmaceuticals into our kids, something that the medical profession is not trained to help us in. No two children with autism are the same, so the key is keeping the knowledge flowing, and some trial and error, not snake oil. Changing foods, detoxing, giving vitamins and supplements or oxygen is not harmful, how do you figure? That's good health. You should be so lucky as to be as well looked after as some of these kids! Biomedical is not "quackery", these are expert medical doctors and scientists with years of experience in the field who created these protocols, and some children are recovering so well as to be taken off the autism spectrum all together! I would never give my child a bleach enema, who would? We obviously are trying to remove the toxins, not add more in. This topic is a feeding frenzy for the media, but truly, the bottom line is that we want to help our kids recover from physical issues associated with autism, to improve the quality of their lives, and its a low blow to blame parents for trying. Its such a shame its been blown out of proportion. Autism One is not to blame here, they help many many people. MMS is tied to a religious group, does that mean that anyone who believes in God also believes in bleach enemas now too? Do you see how silly that sounds?


Changing foods, detoxing, giving vitamins and supplements or oxygen is not harmful, how do you figure?

You might want to ask the family of Abubaqar Tariq Nadama about that. Nadama was an autistic child who was being chelated to "detox" him. Roy Kerry, the quack who administered the chelator, failed to add calcium to the IV, and Nadama's heart stopped and couldn't be restarted.
There is no good evidence that autism is caused by toxins. Doing the above can be harmful because it diverts resources away from things that can help, like certain forms of ABA.

Biomedical is not “quackery”, these are expert medical doctors and scientists with years of experience in the field who created these protocols, and some children are recovering so well as to be taken off the autism spectrum all together!

A lot of Biomedical is quackery, I'm afraid. The Geiers' Lupron Protocol, chelation and MMS are just three examples. As to children recovering, autism is developmental delay, not developmental stasis, and people who don't use biomedical also often see dramatic changes in their children. Some even come off the spectrum as well.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 21 Jun 2012 #permalink

@ Robyn:

"Changing foods, detoxing, giving vitamins and supplements or oxygen is not harmful, how do you figure? That’s good health."

What "toxins" does your child have Robyn...that need to be removed? Which laboratory tests determined that your child was toxic? And, how did your child acquire these toxicities, Robyn?


You do not trust medical doctors to evaluate your child for nutritional status and you state that doctor pump pharmaceuticals into kids.

Which type of "practitioner" evaluated your child for nutritional status Robyn? How did your "practitioner" test your child for nutritional deficiencies and determine that your child needs a *special diet*.

Why does your child your need oxygen, Robyn? How are you administering the oxygen that your child needs...through nasal cannula, through an oxygen mask or by sessions in a hyperbolic oxygen chamber? Oh, and what theory/theorist do you rely on, for giving your child oxygen treatments?

"Autism One is not to blame here, they help many many people."

I read the list of speakers who appeared at the conference and I say they harm many more people, than they help:


Yes, the child who died of chelation was given the wrong thing, which is obviously a tragic mistake, but the pharmaceutical industry kills people daily due to adverse reactions to medications. I actually don't chelate because I believe it is an extreme measure reserved only for extreme cases of poisonings. Detox is not chelation necesssarily, you can detox your body from basic environmental toxins too, and it is a fact that we all walk around with them, there are many found in the umbilical cord blood of newborn babies, and for children with autism they don't have the proper metabolism to rid their bodies of these toxins. I challenge any of you to read The Autism Revolution by Martha Herbert M.D. from Harvard University, or visit the Autism Research Institute or AutismCanada.org and really do your research, and then we can talk. Oh and by the way, today a court ruled that a child in Italy was in fact damaged by the MMR vacccination which led to autism.


Oh, and did you know that the court used the fraudulent research of mr. andrew wakefield in order to base its decision. A decision that has been criticized by most EU health organizations for using said fraudulent research in making the decision.

And why would a small court ruling outweigh numerous well-designed scientific studies with thousands of subjects that have shown no causation between the MMR vaccine and autism?

Martha Herbert has gone over to the dark side of woo and is now considered a quack. She's been written about on Orac's "friend's" blog, about what an embarassment she is to legitimate academic institutions. None of her crackpot theories have any scientific basis.

That website Autisim Research Institute is a biomed site promoting all kinds of quackery. And guess which lab they support? Doctor's Data. Big surprise.

Robyn: how do you know your child is full of toxins? And what toxins specifically? Please support your statement "it is a fact we all walk around with them (environmental toxins)".

By Marc Stephens … (not verified) on 22 Jun 2012 #permalink

Children are being helped by biomedical treatment. Period. I can see with my own eyes that it is helping my child, I have evidence in front of me. You go ahead and give your child 30 vaccinations, drink your flouridated and chlorinated (bleach?) water, eat your GMO's and junk food and pick up some pesticide laden fruit, but let the people who want to give their children a non toxic lifestyle do so in peace. I'm sorry I don't have more time to debate this, I'm busy lovingly caring for, and healing my autistic child!

@Robyn - please tell us that you aren't shoving bleach up your child's rectum.....

So a "non-toxic lifestyle" to people like Robyn includes, among other things, chemical castration, possibly deadly chelation and bleach treatments. Oh, let's not forget fecal transplants. Plus force-feedingtheir kids dozens of supplements, vitamins and other dubious nutritional therapy.

To be fair to Robyn, she did say she would never do MMS or chelation. But she supports those options for other parents, which is just as bad as if she did them herself.

And her comparison of a chelation death to the deaths caused by the pharmaceutical companies is, of course, all together now, one big strawman. So what? One thing has nothing to do with the other, Robyn!

By Marc Stephens … (not verified) on 22 Jun 2012 #permalink

I suspect your concept of "toxins" and the medical realities of toxins/toxicants are somewhat different. I also think your concept of what a "detox" is and can achieve is quite different to the reality. I suspect you are using these terms because they sound appropriately "sciency" and they sound plausible and they appeal to your inner need to explain what might be going on with your child.

As others have asked, what "toxins" excatly do you think you are dealing with in a "detox", and how exactly would this "detox" work over and above what the body already does quite naturally? And what "toxins" are in the umbilical cord?

Please don't get all shy about answering what should be quite simple questions, please, on the pretext that you have better things to do. That's just an admission that you don't really know the answers, and are afraid of confronting the reality that you don't really know what is going on.

@Robyn: You were the one who first came posting here with some pretty nebulous "treatments" for your child...based on your blanket statement about medical doctors inadequacies.

I merely asked you some simple questions about the *practitioners* you use, the diagnoses given to you by these *practitioners*, the tests that determined your child's nutritional deficits and the need to change your child's diet, the need to detoxify your child and the need to give your child oxygen treatments.

Why, are you leaving, clutching your pearls...in a huff.

Why won't you tell us what type tests were done on your child?

Do you rent your HBOT chamber or did you purchase it...because for some unfathomable reason you think your child needs oxygen therapy?

The case in Italy was decided several months ago and the "facts" concerning the onset of symptoms for that child are based on conflicting testimony about when the child received MMR vaccine (9 months of age or 15 months of age). The decision has been roundly criticized in science/legal communities in Europe and in the United States...because plaintiff's success was based on the fraudulent Wakefield study.

"I’m sorry I don’t have more time to debate this, I’m busy lovingly caring for, and healing my autistic child!"

Let me FTFY Sharon...

I've been asked some questions which I cannot answer because I would reveal myself as a phony, science-illiterate
parent...who is busy caring for my child whom I experiment

Robyn, your first post @ June 21, 11:35 pm does not sound as if you’re at the extreme edge of the Biomed movement. You yourself stated you would not give your own child a bleach enema because you don’t want to add more toxins in.

You lament the negative attention MMS has gotten from outsiders. Would you consider this? If you – those of you who do use Biomed but think that MMS is a bad idea – would speak out against its use those of us outside your movement would not have to do it for you.

Speak out. As long as you don’t, and you maintain this “anything goes” philosophy, you lose credibility for everything you’re doing. If you’ll forgive the analogy: if you will not separate out the obvious chaff, why should we believe there’s even any wheat in there? Please think about it.


Yes, the child who died of chelation was given the wrong thing, which is obviously a tragic mistake, but the pharmaceutical industry kills people daily due to adverse reactions to medications.

The funny thing about that excuse was it was cooked up several weeks later. At that time what Kerry did, including which chelator to use, was being promoted by the bogus toxicology organization he and others (like Buttar) were in. They were promoting it for all kinds of ills, just like MMS is now.

And here is the killer bit about it all: Roy Kerry, who was an Ear, Nose and Throat doctor with absolutely no expertise in toxicology, pediatrics or autism, passed a course that took less than a day to because a DAN! doctor after the death of the little boy.

It is all part of the fractured, non-scientific thinking that is prevalent in the so-called biomed movement to cure autism.

I just want to state that I responded to all of the questions (and insults) above, and posted links to all of the information I spoke about, but have had my comment mysteriously erased. I am not afraid to defend myself, but this is not an open discussion of the facts, its a soap box for you all to badmouth biomedical. Have at it, if I can't have my say too then I won't be part of this. MMS is not even part of the DAN protocol, it happened to be spoken of at a conference which also had speakers talking about the traditional therapies. I don't defend it, I defend biomedical. Maybe you could all try listening instead of speaking some time.


If you'll search through the blog, you'll find that Orac is not in the habit of erasing posts he disagrees with. There have been posts go to moderation, which eventually get released - I don't know if this continues today with the new platform. It is possible, I suppose, that a glitch lost your post in which case I hope you'll try to recreate it.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 23 Jun 2012 #permalink

Robyn, many posts with a lot of links get moderated and don't appear quickly. You could try posting links one at a time. At the very least, you could just give a pubmed id number that won't trigger moderation.
Regardless, you should really explain how/why you think your child can/should be recovered. My 19 year old autistic daughter would tell you to your face that she does not and would not to be made 'normal'. Think on that. What does that mean? Maybe you should not try and 'rescue/recover' your child. Try to accept them the way they are.

You might get more success if you focus on providing evidence and arguments in favor of a particular set of treatments rather than a vague umbrella term such as "biomedical".

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 23 Jun 2012 #permalink

I've used MMS. When sodium chlorite is acidified it turns into chlorine dioxide briefly before breaking down into sodium chloride--salt water. There is a two-hour window of effectiveness during which pathogens are selectively targets. Not all bacteria, like the devastation wreaked by antibiotics on one's immune system. 3 drops of MMS won't kill anyone. The first time I used it, there was a few seconds of nausea and during the night I got up 4 times to use the toilet. No diarrhea, just bowel cleansing. And overnight a condition that tormented me for over 40 years, caused by insect bites, disappeared. After that I gave it to two sick cats. Something was going around the neighborhood that was killing them slowly--respiratory infection, emaciation, pus from eyes and mouth and then death. These were abandoned, wild cats so I could only catch two of them. They were the only ones who recovered. And of course most diseases have a component of pathogenic infection, including autism with their infected bowels. Most diseases involve a toxic inner environment (toxemia) and this is a breeding ground for pathogenic organisms. Detoxifying is critically important to the healing process but so is dealing with pathogenic side effects. Killing pathogenic organisms isn't the end all of curing disease, but it's a better treatment than most of conventional medicine has to offer. I spent 21/2 years observing a naturopath cure cancer and about every other disease that was around in the early 80's--and realized then that what passes for conventional medicine is barbaric. MMS is mild stuff compared to radiation, chemo and surgery with it's tiny "success" rate. About 2.1% (optimistically speaking) http://truthquest2.com/chemotherapyStats.htm MMS is potent medicine for the pathogenic component of infection and disease, but it can't be patented so Big Pharma is having conniption fits and supporting this witch hunt..as usual in such situations.

By Dianne Jacobs … (not verified) on 27 Jun 2012 #permalink

I find it interesting you only provide a citation on your competitors, rather than your own medicine. Do you simply lack evidence, and have to rely on insulting others in the hopes you look better by comparison?

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 27 Jun 2012 #permalink

Are you getting your MMS for free, Dianne? No? Is someone making money off of it? So are they making a profit? Are you synthesizing this stuff in your basement?
As for 'curing', anecdote.....and as for 'curing' wild cats, there is a strong argument for letting these creatures die as they are not part of the natural ecosystem.
Try posting some proof and not just stories. And please, any naturopath that can cure cancer would not be hidden on some comments section of the internet, they would be on Oprah and Dr Phil being lauded.

@ Dianne

There is a two-hour window of effectiveness during which pathogens are selectively targets.

How can a chemical decides to selectively target "pathogens"?

There is no difference between many pathogen bacteria and our commensal bacteria. Actually, some of our commensal bacteria can turn pathogen (they are that we call opportunistic pathogens).

Also, as someone who had to use bleach to decontaminate hsi hands, I can tell you that sodium hypochlorite doesn't distinguish between my skin and the bacteria on it. It attacks both.

By Heliantus (not verified) on 27 Jun 2012 #permalink


Some chemicals, like antibiotics, do indeed selectively target some types of bacteria, but that's because their mode of action is to bind to a specific protein of the bacteria. By example, penicilline-like antibiotics bind to the enzymes in charge of building the bacterium cell wall, and tetracyclines binds to ribosomes.

As far as I know, bleach is not selective. It's working by oxidizing anything in sight. Including your esophagus and intestines if your ingest it.

By Heliantus (not verified) on 27 Jun 2012 #permalink

Thanks for the laughs Diane...you made my day. I found some additional *scientific* theories you have at the whale.to website:


How's your MMS sales franchise doing...now that your *cure* has been shown to be industrial bleach.

And look: Dianne Jacobs Thompson supports baby murderers and defends that scumbag who shook his baby to death, Alan Yurko. She deserves MMS:


By Marc Stephens … (not verified) on 27 Jun 2012 #permalink

SURE--vaccines don't cause autism. Sure--just ask any Big Pharma rep or pharma-financed study. But they did cause autism in monkeys put on an infant vaccine schedule--every one of them had some level of autism symptoms. http://vran.org/in-the-news/infant-monkeys-given-standard-doses-of-vacc… but of course that has no connection to human autism. If you believe that, I've got a real estate deal for you...sucker.

By Dianne Jacobs … (not verified) on 27 Jun 2012 #permalink

Your strategy reminds me of someone trying to deal with a burning building by pointing out that volcanoes are hotter. An interesting comparison, but utterly meaningless to the issue at hand.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 27 Jun 2012 #permalink

Oh, goody, a person who thinks it is okay to shake babies using the old tired and worn out Pharma Shill Gambit.

Exactly how can you tell is a monkey has autism?

from your link:

"The full implications of this primate study await publication of the research in a scientific journal,"

That was 4 years ago. Where's the publication? Where's the data? You can't even read your own citation for detail...nowhere does it say that "every one of them had some level of autism symptoms."

I guess I'd better finish my story, since only the beginning is there. Haven't got to the part where the naturopath cured my stomach cancer, ovarian cysts, low thyroid, chronic bronchitis, arthritis and heart condition in 5 weeks, and that was just the beginning.

Alan Yurko, whose premature, sickly baby died after receiving multiple vaccines, yeah--people all over the world supported him. Shaken baby--they know now the symptoms used to diagnose shaken baby aren't caused by shaking. That's why they had to change the name to "abusive head trauma" because the symptoms can be caused by severe head impact, but also by numerous medical conditions, including vaccines which are documented causes of brain swelling (inconsolable crying is a symptom) and hemorrhagic conditions like thrombocytopenia--those are your SBS diagnostic symptoms. Also, animal studies proved that vaccines cause elevated blood histamine levels, a hemorrhagic condition, and depleted vitamin c levels (it is required to neutralize blood histamines) which creates accelerated infantile scurvy--a hemorrhagic condition which also causes bone disease, many other symptoms and sudden death.

I'm a teacher and independent investigative researcher/writer. I started researching health issues after getting cured of life-threatening conditions by a naturopath in 1979 and the focus went to vaccine sequelae in 1986 after my only child was nearly killed by her first and only vaccine.
On SBS, no neck and cervical spinal injuries like those found in whiplash injury means no shaking, and they've never been found in these cases. The symptoms are caused by other means.
Bleeding in the brain: http://legaljustice4john.com/thrombocytopenia.htm

My story--vaccine injury: http://truthquest2.com/vaccination2.htm

If you want to know something about my work, read the article pubished by NEXUS magazine, distributed in many countries, in several languages: Seawater – A Safe Blood Plasma Substitute?
http://www.nexusmagazine.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&… It was chosen out of that issue to be published online, and can be found on several other websites. I do my homework instead of blowing off with ignorant, uneducated "personal opinions".

By Dianne Jacobs … (not verified) on 27 Jun 2012 #permalink

From a liar:

Alan Yurko, whose premature, sickly baby died after receiving multiple vaccines, yeah–people all over the world supported him.

So all those broken bones were from vaccines?

and as for ‘curing’ wild cats, there is a strong argument for letting these creatures die as they are not part of the natural ecosystem

Neither are you, I daresay.

the naturopath cured my stomach cancer, ovarian cysts, low thyroid, chronic bronchitis, arthritis and heart condition in 5 weeks, and that was just the beginning.

Oh wow, we've got a live one here.
I just read her 'vaccine injury' story...hoo boy. One for the ages.

What a horrid woman.....

"Dr. Dick"....giggity.

Seriously, what an appropriate name for a quack. Kind of like Gary "Null".

By Marc Stephens … (not verified) on 27 Jun 2012 #permalink

So all those broken bones were from vaccines?

No, those broken bones were from Yurko hitting the child, something he admits to doing (got that? He does not deny that he hit the child).

But oh, he would never resort to _shaking_ the baby. Oh no.

(As I have explained before, it's really dumb, because as a parent, I actually have a far more understanding for shaken baby issues - the response is not really that extreme, and I can understand the mental state that leads to it; that's why in parenting classes, we don't vilify the feelings that lead to the problem, but teach the proper way to deal with them. Shaken baby happens because of lack of education. Hitting a 2 month old happens because the person is a monster. Sorry, but "I didn't shake him, I only hit him" is NOT excusable, even if it is true (which I don't believe for a second about this creep))

By Marry Me, Mindy (not verified) on 27 Jun 2012 #permalink

Diane, how did you miss (bold for emphasis) "The abstracts presented at IMFAR..." in the link you provided? You are aware that conference abstracts do not represent peer-reviewed publications, I trust?

When the researchers publish the results of their completed studies in peer-reviewed journals, we'll talk.

Actually after reading your defense of John Yurko it's clear that any further discussion would be futile: you can't fix crazy.

"I’m a teacher and independent investigative researcher/writer"

I stopped reading right there. The bullshit got too deep to wade through, and I'm not wearing hip waders.

@dianne jacobs thompson

So, due to your support of a child murderer,. pretty much we can conclude that you are full of it.

At least your comments are good for the utter lulz, from all of the ignorance that that you spew.

@ Dianne

*study shows autism symptoms in monkey *

Is it the study where one of the two control monkeys (i.e. the non-vaccinated ones) had abnormal brain development, his brain shrinking instead of growing, and the "searchers' labeled it as "normal"?

* study shows vaccines deplete vitamine C *

Ah, you mean the study where rats had an apparent lowered concentration of vitamin C following vaccination, but got it back to normal the next day?
In a world and time where most baby formula are enriched in vitamins?

* symptoms of injuries which could also have been caused by vaccines*

You mean like the bruises on the baby's arms which really looked like adult fingers squeezed it far too strongly?

You are the one here enabling child harm. Go away.

By Heliantus (not verified) on 27 Jun 2012 #permalink

Does anyone know if there has been an Alan Yurko type case in the UK recently? I have seen headlines hinting at something like this on the cover a particularly vile British magazine called Namaste (should be called Nasty) in Community Natural Foods in Calgary. There was something referring to child supposedly killed by the MMR vaccine and now in the most recent issue something about the child's innocent father being in prison or prosecuted. I went to their website, (namastepublishing.co.uk) but although I found a heap of crazy (a lot of anti-EU, anti-vax etc), I could not find anything about it before I reached my limit of batshittery. Have any of the Brits here heard anything about this?

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 27 Jun 2012 #permalink

@Militant Agnostic

Er... Hopefully another British person can help out more, as I'm inattentive to magazines like that, and so can't comment appropriately. The last high-profile child abuse case we've had - that I know of - was initially referred to as 'Baby P'. I do not know of any claim of vaccine injury on the part of the 'responsible' adults who were prosecuted, but do believe that such a claim would have led to substantial media coverage, because they had such fun with MMR before, and more recent pieces like the one highlighted at http://jdc325.wordpress.com/2012/06/23/sue-reid-on-mmr-in-the-daily-mail suggest they're not done yet.

The companies behind the Daily Mail and Metro (on the one hand) and the Express and Daily Star (on the other) seem to have been the worst for exaggerating perceived risks of vaccination while AJW was doing his thing originally, and dredging-up any source of doubt since. Neither of those companies appears to have a direct control over Namaste (as far as I can tell), but it is trying to appeal to a similar market.

By Temporarily de… (not verified) on 29 Jun 2012 #permalink

Some interesting debate going on and questions being raised here - particularly between Calli, ScienceMom and Lillady.
My own feeling is that Calli was not in any way *defending* or giving a 'free pass' to parents who abuse their children in this way and I can't see how her comments were interpreted in this way.
As repugnant as their behaviour is, I believe most of these parents do love their children and sincerely believe that they are helping them. It is possible to love your child and still harm them grievously - the ability to love your child in itself says little about your worth as a parent.
I find myself agreeing with Calli - I don't think it's helpful or correct to think of AoA-type parents as evil, cold, unfeeling monsters.
(and as a pedantic side point, the issue was raised some years ago by Rhys Morgan not Rhys Martin!)

Ok, have spent some time over at Autismum's blog - starting to have a little more sympathy for the positions of Sciencemom and LilLady. There's some truly dangerous, repugnant people out there and I'm seriously hope Child Protective services are alerted to them.

Thanks Kath. I didn't think Callie was giving a free pass to biomeddler parents; I simply disagree that these parents truly love the child in front of them as opposed to being in love with the idea of the child they don't have but 'want back'. But yes, it's pretty scary isn't it? And I'm afraid that you may have only read a fraction of what these parents do to their children and sadly, are enabled and even encouraged by DAN! doctors and other 'healthcare providers'.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 03 Jul 2012 #permalink

ScienceMom- terrifying. I'd read about this sort of thing, but to be confronted by actual, real life parents who seem to view their children as being possessed of some horrendous evil that needs purging; parents who are prepared to put their children at serious risk of psychological and physical harm to satisfy their healer fantasies and fit in with their ignorant, narrow view of the world...
Even though I had some knowledge of these practices, what's made the issue seem a lot more real is reading testimony from people who openly and proudly admit to administering their children with bleach solution & enemas; I was just horrified. I'd naively assumed that parents who do this are mostly vulnerable and desperate people who genuinely have no idea of the harm they are doing to their children.
I think you make an excellent point, and I would absolutely agree that these parents do not "truly love the child in front of them as opposed to being in love with the idea of the child they don’t have but ‘want back’"

Thanks, Kath. Yeah, that's exactly what I was getting it. Also, parents aren't the only ones who love someone without really knowing them, or loves who they wish the other person was. I've known a few abused spouses, and that sort of thing comes up. "I love you but you have to give up all of your friends, your family, and everything you've ever cared about or I won't believe you love me." It can get extremely twisted. That seems to be something society is comfortable admitting can happen; we seem to have a harder time accepting that it can also happen between a parent and a child, I think because we tend to glorify the parent/child relationship to dangerous extremes. Too many severely underprepared parents who are expecting love to work miracles and make it all fluffy toys and rainbows and not hard work. (Too many underprepared spouses not realizing that you have to work at a marriage too.)

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 03 Jul 2012 #permalink

Kath, Science Mom, Calli Arcale, lilady and others above, I believe we can all agree that Autism Mum and her family are awesome.

I am watching the garden transformation, which is being done to accommodate Pwdin and not to punish him. This is amazing. The only thing I can relate to that is similar is making sure the new couch did not have removable cushions that could be thrown around the room. Okay, I did have the one child who ate his older brother's art supplies, which is why the big brother's easel and paints were on the porch to keep little brother away (and it was big brother who had, and still has the semi-autistic developmental delays!).

I would never force any of those boys to consume MMS, nor force anything up their bums unless it was medically necessary (younger boy recently had a gastro bug that required a suppository to deal with the nausea so he could keep down fluids, but he is a normal college student so he could do that himself --- his job involves teaching small children to swim so he does pick up some odd bugs).

I just had a thought....

We glorify parenthood to dangerous extremes, and on places such as mothering-dot-com this is writ large. Parenthood, and especially motherhood, means you will be able to solve all problems in your child's life. If you cannot, you have failed as a parent. (And even in the mainstream, observe how often parents of behaviorally disturbed children are blamed for having screwed up as parents; parents are often presumed to have near godlike powers where their children are concerned.) Therefore, if you are unable to resolve your child's problem, in order to keep your "good parent" card, you not only need to have the problem not be your fault, you also need to be working hard to fix it. Of course, we all know that for some conditions (e.g. autism), this is essentially hopeless; the child will likely improve with age, but will always have that chronic condition. But they cannot accept that, because it means they've failed as parents, so they try ever more exotic attempts.

And here's what I just thought: perhaps these attempts escalate not merely out of desperation but because the magnitude of the heroism* required to overcome it. That is, if the therapy that fixes it is really really hard, then that just validates their difficulty in solving the problem earlier. It's not their fault they didn't fix the problem for the child earlier. It was a highly vexing problem that only extreme measures would resolve, but of course they were such good parents that they were willing to go that extra mile.....

Just a thought, anyway. My English degree tells me this is an excellent formula for a classical tragedy, with the parent as the tragic hero**.

*In the archaic sense of "heroic medicine", not actual heroism necessarily. Heroic medicine used to be very popular; the quality of an intervention was often judged largely by how extreme it was.

**Here, "hero" in the literary sense: protagonist. Heroes aren't always nice or noble, and tragic heroes are even less likely to, since the classical structure dictates that their downfall be their own fault. (The Greeks were very big on punishing hubris.)

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 03 Jul 2012 #permalink

Absolutely and well said, Chris.

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 03 Jul 2012 #permalink

@ Kath: Calli Arcale is one of my favorite posters here. Our posts back and forth led to a lively debate and exchange of opinions about what *motivates* these parents and what constitutes child abuse.

Meanwhile back at the Ho-Po Todd Drezner's blog about MMS has attracted a number of the RI Regulars...who have posted there to bring this abusive *treatment/cure* for autism to the attention of a wider audience...which is a good thing.


Autismum, Science Mom and other science bloggers have exposed the dark underbelly of some of the abusive practices of the so-called *bio-medical treating parents*.

(Why do we have to have these in-depth discussions at 11 PM EDT? I've just finished preparing some goodies for tomorrow's July 4th celebration).

Talk amongst yourselves...I'm going to shower now...be back shortly to join the RI ladies. :-)

Thanks, Calli Arcale.

It is when I hear the complaints of the parents of autistic children that I find those transgressions were not with my older disabled child, but with my younger boy. My oldest son's terrible two's lasted two weeks, and he was very compliant. He colored in the lines, ate his dinner, and was easily potty trained.

It was the younger boy whose terrible two's lasted from eighteen months until he was seven years old. He ate art supplies, including biting the nibs off of markers (he had the most interesting diaper changes). He refused to become potty trained until he was almost five years old. He did have a language delay, but freaked out the neurologist at age three by putting together a puzzle too quickly.

Reading that, one would think he was some high functioning Asperger's. But no. He is annoyingly normal. With some speech/language therapy he was scoring normally before kindergarten. He was always a social butterfly, who was able to engage even the most shy child. He did marching band, has had girlfriends, was a high school honor student, and has lived on his own for a couple of years. He did not become one of the 50% who got accepted to the college of engineering (it is very competitive), but has redirected himself to becoming a teacher. Because that is what he has been doing for five years, including working with the special populations that include autism.

While his older brother still struggles. In short the child who drove me crazy when he was young is doing fine, the other one who was quiet and compliant is who I worry about.

This is why I view some of the stories of the misdeeds of autistic children a bit differently.

I'm sorry lilady, it may be when we find ourselves alone and undisturbed at our laptops this time in our various time zones. I recently put away dinner leftovers. But now I must go the the laptop that refuses the wifi to finish a very long letter about our oldest son's recent surgery for my family.

@ Chris: Just kidding...I know you are posting from the West Coast.

I visit and post on Autismum's blog frequently; she is a super mom to Pwdin and a gutsy blogger, as well. (Could we ever forget how she took on that awful creature "Patriot Nurse"?)

Best wishes to you and your family.

Calli Arcale

Parenthood, and especially motherhood, means you will be able to solve all problems in your child’s life. If you cannot, you have failed as a parent.

I thought the point of parenthood was to help the offspring achieve the best of their own abilities (including giving them the tools to solve their own problems). Whatever those abilities may be.

Am I off base here?

Actually I thought parenthood was making sure the kid was alive at bedtime.

Did I set the bar too low?

Because there were some close moments, like the seizures or the blue foot prints up the white carpeted stairs.

Oh, I forgot... making sure the main symptom of the genetic heart condition did not occur:

Sudden Cardiac Death

Chris @ 1:28 am 4 Jul in other time zones

parenthood was making sure the kid was alive at bedtime

Yeah, both were. But part of my point was I try to help themmake the decisions that will keep them alive until then.

Disclaimer: one kid fell off his bike so many times today, we need to find the right wrench to reposition the back brake on the bike before he flips over the handlebars, because he only has two speeds: full or stop. Then again, same kid chews out the neighbors kid when they take helmets off.

@ 1:29 am Happy to hear some good news!

and apologies for lack of preview and s/v agreement

Thanks. I am still writing about the surgery experience plus the aftermath. It is apparently not a simple thing to remove a thumb size chunk of interior heart muscle. That causes the body to go "Oooh, you hurt me! I will beat faster and cause more issues!", and then hopefully calm down where nine years of inactivity then can be addressed.

The probability of child waking up in the morning has increased.

Sometimes parents who had a child with hypertrophic cardiomyopathy only found out about the condition after trying to wake up a dead child in the morning. I spent almost nine years wondering if that would happen to us. While that probability still exists, it is much lower now. Kind of like getting a vaccine.

you inspire me to try to be a better parent.

[blush] Thank you.