After all the years that I've been writing about vaccines, the science behind vaccines, and how antivaccinationists twist that science to turn what are arguably the greatest medical achievement of medicine and have saved arguably more lives than any other medical intervention devised by human minds into toxic cesspits of horrific chemical corruption that cause autism and destroy children, I thought I had seen it all. And perhaps I have. Sadly, seldum does any new bit of pseudoscience or new fallacious argument trying to claim that vaccines are dangerous surprise me anymore. That didn't used to the the case, but it's been quite a while since I've seen anything truly new. That's not to say that I haven't seen a lot of new twists on old themes. Antivaccinationists are protean in their ability to run with the same idea down different pathways. Perhaps a better way of putting it is that antivaccinationists have a seemingly endless wardrobe they can use to dress of the same turds of misinformation and pseudoscience.
I was reminded of this when I came across a blog I hadn't seen before (or at least that I can't remember having seen before). The blogger is someone named Jon Rappoport. He calls himself an "investigative reporter," and runs a website he calls No More Fake News. His bio is rather self-aggrandizing, in which he claims multiple publications but, more importantly:
Jon has lectured extensively all over the US on the question: Who runs the world and what can we do about it?For the last ten years, Jon has operated largely away from the mainstream because, as he puts it, "My research was not friendly to the conventional media."
Over the last 30 years, Jon's independent research has encompassed such areas as: deep politics, conspiracies, alternative health, the potential of the human imagination, mind control, the medical cartel, symbology, and solutions to the takeover of the planet by hidden elites.
Perhaps this explains how he could write a post called Germ Theory and Depopulation. Remember how I referred to antivaccinationists being able to dress up turds in lots of different outfits? Consider Rappoport's post to be yet another example. It's useful to look at, however, because it explains something I hadn't quite understood about why antivaccine conspiracy theorists seem to think that vaccines are a tool of depopulation. Ever since they started going after Bill Gates, willfully misinterpreting his remarks about how vaccines can contribute to healthier societies and healthier societies tend to have slower population growth as evidence that Gates somehow wants to use vaccines to depopulate the world, antivaccinationists have been making this argument more and more. Rappoport just does it in a way that I haven't seen before, linking germ theory denialism (yes, there are germ theory denialists in this day and age, as hard as it is to believe) with a plot to depopulate the world with vaccines. Such are the investigative chops of this "investigative journalist."
He begins with an expressed desire to "straighten out the thinking of many people who look at germs as the primary vehicle for reducing the global population." These people (whoever they are) apparently believe that intentional pandemics of bioengineered viruses are being launched in order to kill massive numbers of people. Personally, as a scientists, I could never understand what anyone would get out of depopulating the world, and any sort of infectious agent seems to be a very blunt, unreliable, dangerous, and likely ineffective method to achieve such an end, but I'll run with Rappoport for a minute. He believes that the H1N1 pandemic from three years ago was a "complete dud." Personally, I"m thankful that the pandemic didn't turn out to be nearly as severe as feared, but even at its level of severity it did cause a fair amount of havoc. Be that as it may, Rappoport claims he knows what's really going on:
Swine flu was a PROPAGANDA OPERATION, plain and simple, aimed at scaring populations and driving them to get vaccines. That was the op. And it failed. In fact, the op was exposed (by yours truly and others) as a sham and a con. Millions of people online caught on. It was a devastating defeat for WHO, the CDC, and the medical cartel.
I'd hate to be in public health these days. You get the blame no matter what happens. If the H1N1 pandemic had been as serious as feared, public health authorities would have been blamed for not doing enough to prevent it. If, as happened, the pandemic was not as severe as predicted, you catch flak for "overreacting." Public health authorities can't win, and it doesn't help that conspiracy theorizing "investigative journalists" like Rappoport pile on in such a monumentally paranoid fashion. I must admit, though, it is good for a bit of entertainment, as you will see.
What do I mean? According to Rappoport, these pandemics were a big cover, but a cover for what? Here's where the germ theory denialism comes in. I realize that many of you have a hard time believing that anyone could be a germ theory denialist in this day and age, but believe me when I tell you that not only do such people exist, but they are common in the antivaccine movement, particularly among believers in various forms of quackery. Basically, the thought process (if you can call it "thought") goes along these lines: Germs don't cause disease; so vaccines are unnecessary. I kid you not. But if vaccines are unnecessary, what, then, is their purpose? Rappoport thinks he knows:
Let’s go deeper. In general, so-called contagious diseases are caused, not by germs, but by IMMUNE SYSTEMS THAT ARE TOO WEAK TO FIGHT OFF THOSE GERMS.
When we put the cart and the horse in proper alignment, things become clear. I fully realize this isn’t as sexy as talking about bio-engineered gene sequences in viruses, but the cart and horse must be understood.
GERMS ARE A COVER STORY.
What do they cover up?
The fact that immune systems are the more basic target for depopulation and debilitation of populations.
I do so love all caps, and Rappoport liberally peppers his posts with all caps. This post I'm discussing has quite a few sentences in all caps. In any case, yes, you read it right. According to Rappoport, there is some sort of massive conspiracy to depopulate the world. Only it's not using bioengineered germs to accomplish this nefarious task. Rather, it's using the threat of pandemics due to bioengineered germs in order to scare people into getting vaccines so that their immune systems will be devastated and they will...well, it's not exactly clear. Die? Fail to reproduce because they become too sickly? I suppose it must be one or more of these.
It gets even "better."
To Rappoport, the AIDS epidemic of 25 years ago was just a warmup. According to him, the "medical cartel" (whatever that is) lied about HIV causing AIDS because too many people were becoming aware that germs weren't the real cause of disease, that the "germ-conquering immune system" was everything when it came to disease. So, as Rappoport put it, the medical cartel said that it had found a new germ that would crash the immune system:
IT SAID: ALL YOUR IDEAS ABOUT THE IMMUNE SYSTEM ARE USELESS. THE IMMUNE SYSTEM CAN’T “REPLACE DOCTORS AND DRUGS” BY WARDING OFF GERMS IF IT IS BEING DESTROYED BY HIV. YOU SEE? A SINGLE GERM IS MORE POWERFUL THAN THE WHOLE IMMUNE SYSTEM. THE GERM IS THE REAL PROBLEM. WE WIN, YOU LOSE.
That was their play. That was their game. That was their LIE. Actually, HIV wasn’t destroying or harming a single immune system on the planet, lies work when you have a whole propaganda system at your disposal.
The cartel had to cut off other competing theories that could move to center stage. The most important of these theories would focus on the immune system and how to strengthen it NATURALLY. This is an area in which the medical cartel has zero answers.
It's actually an area where the "natural health" movement has zero answers, but it really thinks it has all the answers. It's a massive case of projection when people like Rapoport claim that the "medical cartel" doesn't have any answers. Of course, one could also point out that Rappoport and people like him actually do have answers that are clear, simple—and completely wrong.
In this case, the answer is that some shadowy conspiracy is lying to you about whether microbes cause disease (as in HIV causing AIDS) and is using that "lie" to convince you to vaccinate, all in order to destroy your immune system. There, it gets a bit fuzzy? Why would this "medical cartel" want to destroy your immune system? So that you believe it when it says that microbes cause disease? What's not to believe, given the copious amount of evidence over the last 130 years, since the time of Louis Pasteur, that various microbes do cause disease? Is in order to make you sick so that you become dependent on the largesse of big pharma to supply you with drugs to keep you alive? That does seem to be the implication, but if you want to sell as many drugs to as many people as possible, depopulation hardly seems a winning strategy. It doesn't make a lot of sense to kill off your customer base. Maybe these big pharma overlords are a short-sighted bunch, only interested in short term profits.
In the end, I'd argue that Rappoport's conspiracy theory doesn't make sense even within the context of the antivaccine movement. Most antivaccinationists accept the germ theory of disease; they simply claim that vaccines do more harm than good. They are, of course, completely in error when they make such claims, but Rappoport goes beyond just being in error straight to going off the rails on a crazy train.
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I had a look at a few of Rappoport's other blog posts. The guy's a fully paid up member of the tin-foil hat brigade. He sees the New World Order behind everything...
Why would slower population growth rates be a bad thing ? We are flirting with (arguably already in) overpopulation, so I fail to see the problem with limiting the disaster.
And if diseases are caused by "immune systems too weak to fight off germs", aren't they ultimately caused by germs ? Cause if they weren't here to begin with, you wouldn't care that your immune system is too weak to fight them off…His rant doesn't even have inner consistency and people believe his dangerous ideas, that's unsettling.
I'm confused: he denies germ theory, but states that germs affect weak immune systems.... I'd say I'm missing something, but I'm willing to bet if I had some tinfoil the penny would drop.
I'm not sure if he completely denies germs, or is one of those who believe that germs cannot make a healthy person sick types. Then he gets lost in some sort of cyclical argument that doesn't quite join up then the whole lot falls over itself. Well, falls over itself internally, it was already a wreck from the outside.
Well, the whole "depopulation" thing doesn't seem to be working. The last I checked, the world hit 7 Billion people with no end to the growth cycle in sight. Of course, they could say that the real growth is in the 3rd World, where vaccines aren't ubiquitous yet - but then again, what about China & India - they are plenty vaccinated, yet still show significant jumps in population?
These conspiracy theories are always incredible fuzzy on the "end game." They never seem to be able to explain the why's - and especially how they would be able to convince hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people, to actively participate or at minimum, not say anything.
In a connected world, where even nation's top secrets can be prevented from being leaked to any number of websites, how exactly is some global-spanning conspiracy supposed to exist?
Nutters - all of them.
"Jon has lectured extensively all over the US on the question: Who runs the world..."
I think that means that, in every city that tolerates vagrants, he's stood around on sidewalks talking out loud to passersby.
I tackled one of these "vaccines are a seekrit plot to depopulate the world" types on Facebook last year. I pointed out to him that the"plot" seemed to be a complete failure so far; he replied with "They got their population growth estimates wrong!"
Yeah, really - a powerful, wealthy global conspiracy couldn't hire competent statisticians....
This kind of article raises (but does not beg!) the question -- where does eccentricity end, and clinically significant delusional paranoia begin?
Does strikeout work on this blog?
Trying again, does strikeout work?
Having kept half an eye on this sort of conspiracy stuff for the past 20 years or, I notice that we haven't all been microchipped, few of us have barcode tatoos, most of us haven't yet been interned in concentration camps by the UN and the world's population continues to increase exponemtially. I can only conclude that the Illuminati are incompetent klutzes.
[strike]strikekout[/strike] with less than and greater than signs works, for those interested, though I decided against using it in my comment in the end.
I'm not sure ther are that many jumps in population in China, thanks to the one-child politics.
Hey show some respect, guys. Anyone who has a long page devoted to him at whale.to...and who was "nominated" for a Pulitzer Prize...is a real heavy duty science guy.
http://www.whale.to/w/rappoport.html
Look at the whale.to list of "publications"...he's been *quite* busy (frantic), the last year or two. Armageddon must be fast approaching.
Orac, is this filbert worthy of your attention at all? So far as I knew until now, he labored in obscurity. Who will you take on next? Believers in reptilianoidians from another galaxy taking us over through our taco stands? The great watermelon conspiracy? Tristero?
Please, go back to battling fools more worthy of your steel.
And similarly, bullet wounds are not caused by bullets, but by the body being too slow to take cover before being hit.
While this is your typical NWO loony, I do remember an article arguing that world overpopulation was directly related to large scale vaccinations, and that the only solution would be to deny vaccines to any country with a positive population growth. You probably need to have a Mao-like attitude to population engineering to come up with that, but as a number game it did seem to make sense. But those guys weren't denying the efficiency of the vaccination, just the "overall benefit to humankind", vaccine deniers instead of denialists.
This is a bit off thread, but I couldn't find an email address, and I thought you might be interested in this interview with Bill Wasik and Monica Murphy, authors of Rabid: http://www.theawl.com/2012/07/rabid-a-cultural-history
Money quote: "But of course, vaccines have proven to be one of mankind's greatest inventions. You're the monster if you don't vaccinate."
I just have to wonder just how it is that conspiracy theorists think the New World Order (or whatever conspiracy they have in mind) can possibly be so astoundingly sophisticated as to be able to produce population-reducing vaccines but so TACTICALLY IDIOTIC to pick such an inefficient method of delivery -- not even making any effort whatsoever to actually induce people to get it? Seriously. Not once was it required. If they REALLY wanted to fool people, they'd claim that Enemies of Democracy were about to release smallpox, and so they have to forcibly vaccinate everyone in order to defuse this threat.
Actually, no, if they really wanted to reduce the population they could take a page out of any of the major dictators throughout history. Or, just flip-flop it: vaccinate the chosen few, and then unleash the real plague. Honestly, the conspiracy theorists believe the Reptilians or whoever are simultaneously incredibly brilliant and complete morons.
Did someone mention conspiracy theories?
O/T, but as a follow-up to Jake Crosby's rant at the IACC meeting...and as part of AoA's ongoing (never-ending) "series" on the IACC, the Boy Wonder Ace Reporter has *figured out* how Matt Carey got his appointment to the IACC:
http://www.ageofautism.com/2012/07/alison-singer-hand-picked-matt-carey…
Jake needs some serious interventions that target his paranoia, his inane Six/Sixty/Six Hundred/Six Thousand Degrees of Separation, his anger issues and yes, his sense of "privilege".
Hasn't Jake learned anything about deductive reasoning, while attending the MPH-Epidemiology program at GW University?
lilady @10:50 - I occasionally serve on the committee that oversees grad students in our program -- checking course transcripts, advisor reports, thesis proposals, and so on.
I can only imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth going on in the meetings of the equivalent committee overseeing the GWU MPH-Epidemiology grad students. It must be an enormous headache.
All the time I see it. The woo-crowd rails against the "medical establishment" (descriptors very) bandying about terms, e.g. & most commonly, "immune system", that arise directly and solely from that same evil institution and that have no meaning in any other context. Others who visit this site have commented on this. Immune, quantum,genome, epigenetic, string them all together, it doesn't really matter.
This fits hand-in-glove with another conspiracy theory that, although dead and buried, has been continuously re-animated and, like a shambling, unholy revenant from a shallow grave in a Stephen King novella, will never rest in peace but will arise again and again and stagger forth towards us repeatedly. No, we're not safe.
I am, of course, speaking of *Codex Alimentarius* and the many variations upon that theme which have persisted for at least 20 years of which I am cognisant. In short, *Codex* is a set of international food standards that supplement hawkers believe- if implemented- will cut into their pro,,, will cut into people's *freedom* to use supplements in right woo-ful fashion, i.e. large doses by the handful. You see, supplements are the natural way of preserving health and bolstering immunity, which if diminished, would lead to early death and thus, de-population. And who wants that?
ANH** is one of the major promoters of this idea but there are quite a few others:
natural-health-information-centre.com
educate-yourself.org
healthfreedomusa.org
as well as the usual suspects
And like an ever-expanding totalitarian regime- police state, *Codex* will encroach upon the rights of free people from east to west, first the EU, then the UK, then the US: eventually it will even reach AUS! Supposedly, your right to purchase supplements of any variety and dose you desire without a prescription is already restricted .... in Germany.
** which has mirror-image loudmouth spokesmodels on both sides of the pond. And enough lobbyists and legal folk to go around.
I was laughingly explaining one type of germ-theory denialist theory - that the cells in our body can become anything (including viruses or bacteria) depending on our internal condition, which is affected by food, activity, emotions, trauma, etc. When the wrong thing happens some of our own cells turn into a disease and then our immune system has an "excuse" to "self-cleanse" with fever, various excretions, etc.
Mr Woo said, "That makes sense for some situations."
I about fell off my chair and asked him about tetanus and puncture wounds, Lyme from ticks, how one gets staph, etc., and he backed down (if only other arguments worked so easily with him).
There is a lot of propaganda out there about vaccines and the secret ingredients they inject into an innocent patient's body and what they might really be for. They include outright depopulation by making immunized people sterile, large-scale mind control by making people developmentally disabled and therefore easier to put into "mindless repetitive work," etc.
I always wonder how in the world anyone believing there are human being selfish enough to want that kind of power could also believe that those people could trust other people to make it happen with them. Most of the time anyone that evil is also pretty paranoid, because they assume everyone else has to be wanting and thinking the same things.
@Lilady - Ack! Think of the kittens! (just kidding; we all know I am the responsible for an unimaginable kitten holocaust)
"Let’s go deeper. In general, so-called contagious diseases are caused, not by germs, but by IMMUNE SYSTEMS THAT ARE TOO WEAK TO FIGHT OFF THOSE GERMS"
Well, he's sorta right. The problem is one of marketing. Instead of calling them "vaccines" and making the staid claim that vaccines provides immunoprotection against infectious agents in XX% of cases, just call it something that "supercharges your immune system." Conversely, market "getting sick" as the organic/natural methodology.
For example, since childhood, my immune system has been supercharged against measles, mumps, rubella, and many others. (Having been born too early, I wound up using the all-natural organic method of supercharging my immune system against varicella zoster; a method that came with lots of unpleasant side effects.)
Surely that sort of tack would play a lot better amongst the woo-woo crowd than "I got my MMR shots, but still have some small scars from when I spent a few unpleasant weeks with chicken pox as a child."
Some days, in my darker moments, I wonder what would happen if science were permitted to use the quacks' own rhetoric in a fight against quackery, even though I know full well the cure would be worse than the disease.
@ lilady:
The chances of an intervention for JC are probably almost zero because his parents are in the same camp as he is, his 'colleagues' all write at AoA and I doubt that he has SB friends at GW. His social milieu supports and rewards his wankery. So wank he must.
-btw- perseveration about the IACC perseveres @ TMR.
Wow. This Rappaport guy is a total nutcase. How exactly can he believe in two totally contradictory things? IANAD, but this sounds like a classic case of scizophrenia to me.
And what is the purpose of all these warnings about NWO this and Illuminati that if they don't have a ghost of an idea what they want their suckers - errm, readers - to do about it? That's not good activism.
Mrs Woo - I admire your patience. If my partner was like Mr Woo I'd have hired a solicitor by now.
As for Mr Chapeau d'Bacofoil in the post, with his "germs don't cause disease it's a conspiracy, and germs are attacking the weakened immune system making you sick for profit"
I've got nowt.
Lucario:
I dare say $$$ are more important than political results for many who engage in conspiracy-mongering regarding the 'NWO' and such (e.g. Mike Adams).
In addition, one pretty much has to rubbish real medicine in order for the alt-med one wants to sell to be passable. An evil conspiracy enveloping real medicine can do the trick just fine.
For people who aren't profiting financially, there may be other more-or-less rational motives (being 'in the know' on 'secret' knowledge is often a big plus, as is feeling important or influential).
With regards to believing self-contradictory claims, such people may simply have highly-compartmentalized minds (typical of both reactionary-establishmentarian and revolutionary-radical authoritarians as per the research of Bob Altemeyer).
I really enjoyed this post. It proves the adage that a turd cannot be polished. But it can be dipped in glitter.
With regard JC I'm reminded of another observation made by someone about somebody.
"He's been educated beyond his intelligence".
Hi. My name is Leslie and I am currently in a "debate" on Facebook (I know, I know) about vaccinations and why they are important. It started out quite simply, but the antivaccine person has now brought in a Dr. Ryan French who has written a post for her...
Lets talk science first. The theory of vaccines is to protect you and does not protect others. Just because you have a vaccine it does not mean that you can not carry that disease that you are protecting yourself from. Many of us are carriers of all sorts of viruses and bacteria but never have a reaction to it because our immune system is fighting it off and doing what our bodies where set up to do. We may cough, sneeze or shake someones hand and they may become sick because of what is transmitted. Science 101. That is why many hospitals are lifting their mandatory vaccine policies because they are not seeing any benefit protecting their patients. Intergris did this about 3 months ago. Overseas they receive far less vacinations than we do and are healthy. They actually pull more vaccinations off the shelf than we do because of harm done. United States and New Zealand are the only countries that allow pharmaceutical adds on TV, every other country thinks it is unethical. You would still have mercury in your vaccinations if it wasn't for all those crazy people saying that there is something wrong with vaccinations. They just forgot to take out the aluminum, phenol, fetal and animal tissue, formaldehyde ect. This is an issue that many MDs, PHDs, Chiropractors and scientist thinks needs to be addressed. It blows my mind that many people just think the pharmaceutical companies and government have your health as their number 1 priority. The pharmaceutical company has the largest lobbiest group at the capitol today. They will sacrifice millions in dollars to make billions. This is through court judgements and fines. Vaccine industry is huge business. I don't know if you remember the tobacco industry sitting in front of congress testifing that their research showed that cigarettes were not addictive and didn't cause cancer. Eventually the truth came out. One of the biggest advances in health care was teaching proper hygeine. When you look at the graphs many diseases were on the decrease before the vaccines were introduced. A great website that has more research than you could ever get through is NVIC.org. She has been on the Today Show, The Doctors and is the go to for vaccine awerness. Even Dr. Oz says his family does not get vaccines. The unvaccinated population is only about 2-4%, it is not the unvaccinated that is a threat. Show me the science and I will change my mind. The best immunity is natural, nobody can dispute that. I love medicine and the science. They are great at strokes, heart attacks, breaks, brain surgery, ect. but we have got it wrong on keeping people healthy. World health organiztion rates US past 43rd. 43 other countries are healthier than we are and we are the most vaccinated population. It is worth the discussion. There is a vaccine Workshop for $25 dollars this Friday at the Coca-Cola event center downtown open to the public! Would love to see you all there to come listen to Dr. Tim O'Shea talk about the SCIENCE! This is a post from Dr. Ryan French if you have any questions he would love to talk more!
This is his post that he is using to try and win the argument that we should not vaccinate our children. I was wondering what your thoughts are on this and what the response to his post might be? I have a very small medical background and can not argue all the studies he is speaking of, but after reading your blog and your twitter posts on vaccines, I thought you would be the perfect one to help me!
Thank you in advance.
Re Jake's latest rant and associated rave:
I like how someone commented that Matt Carey is a professor at Harvard, and then piled up more crazy, and none of the moderators seem to care. But God forbid someone get one small detail about them wrong.
@Heliantus, re bullets.
I, as the kids say, LOL'd.
This discussion reminds of some of the text from the Illuminati page at the Skeptic's Dictionary:
MESSAGE BEGINS--------------------
Shills and Minions:
As regards any correspondence with The Medical Cartel™, it should all be directed to Miss Flinders who will then forward it to the implacable Dr. Bigg. As a permanent member of The Cartel Security Council, it is, of course, up to me to see that all my Shills and Minions help Mr. Rappaport continue his long stroll off the very short pier of his intellect.
As always,
Lord Draconis Zeneca VH7iHL
Foreward Mavoon of the Great Fleet, Pharmaca Magna of Terra, Figment of Their Imaginations
Glaxxon Terrabase DIA
0001101111101101011011001010101
-------------------------MESSAGE ENDS
True that this fellow is low-hanging fruit ORD but you never know when someone is going to come out of said obscurity and oh, start writing for AoA or some other rag like that. It's good to gain some familiarity with the nutbars waiting in the wings.
@ Ren: I just *knew* which addled poster at AoA made that remark...sight unseen. She must have the *other* Dr. Carey who serves on the IACC, confused with Dr. Matthew Carey.
I love her "Bob's your uncle routine" about the Harvard "connection".
Hmmm, is someone lurking here? Addled poster was corrected seven minutes after your comment was posted.
@ Lord Draconis: Could you notify Miss Flinders that I am waiting for the transfer, of you-know-what, to my offshore account. I too, want to bathe in Evian.
As one of my friends said once "They can organize all these conspiracies but can't arrange for Alex Jones to get hit by a bus?"
I don't understand. If germs don't cause disease, then why do we have an immune system? This statement really hurts my brain: "In general, so-called contagious diseases are caused, not by germs, but by IMMUNE SYSTEMS THAT ARE TOO WEAK TO FIGHT OFF THOSE GERMS." So, it IS the germs then? Snake.eating.tail.
Ren:
Well, at least that will make it more difficult to stalk him if they are wandering around the wrong school in the wrong city in the wrong state on the wrong coast.
Hmmm, is someone lurking here? Addled poster was corrected seven minutes after your comment was posted.
not yet in my case but I'll go take a look...
A.L.
I find nothing to speak about at JC's latest post but I'll check again tonight.
A.L.
Of course it's the germs...all the "germs" that live in and on our bodies taking care of all those nasty processes we don't like to think about. Then there are the "germs" of insane ideas that nut cases like this get infected with and they spread nonsense and misinformation to simple minded folks...or worse, stop good people from doing the Right Things™ like getting themselves and their kids vaccinated.
And similarly, bullet wounds are not caused by bullets, but by the body being too slow to take cover before being hit.
Nuh uh, it's because of your skin being too weakened by vaccines to deflect the bullets.
Just look at Superman. His skin's too tough to penetrate with a needle, and he's bullet proof.
I rest my case. Where's my Nobel Prize?
[snort] If it didn't mean the harrassment of an innocent bloke then it would be better to let them believe whatever they wanted. We seriously cannot point and laugh enough at these people.
More and more I've been seeing this "vaccines are a plot to depopulate the world!" meme. It seems to indeed stem from The Gates Foundation's efforts, particularly in Africa.
Say, Steven Salzberg could use some help in the comments thread on this article, if anyone has the stomach for it. I can't deal with it today, but he's battling the likes of Ann Daschel all on his lonesome
http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzberg/2012/07/23/anti-vaccine-move…
From his byline:
Jon has delivered lectures and seminars on global politics, health, logic, and creative power to audiences around the world.
I lol'd
Speaking of Mike Adams, he claimed that the Aurora shooter, James Holmes, was put up to it by FBI mind control so the government can take away everyone's guns.
http://www.naturalnews.com/036536_James_Holmes_shooting_false_flag.html
Tim Guegen: Lilady beat you to it. But that sure is a heaping helping of crazy.
Earlier I caught a few minutes of Null @ PRN** and he was already attributing the despicable crime to psychiatric meds. I don't know if that was based on an actual report about the shooter being on meds or if the tale is entirely a product of his fevered imaginings, like so much other material he reports.
** all archived for our listening displeasure.
@Politicalguineapig...I'd love to take credit for posting Mike Adams latest conspiracy about the Colorado shootings...sigh...it wasn't me.
IIIRC, it was mentioned on another thread that Adams was bragging that he could have taken down the shooter...he carries a concealed gun on his person.
He and anyone else who "jumps" on this shooting tragedy to infer conspiracies...or to *use* the tragedy for cheap publicity is, IMO, lower than pond scum.
There is already conjecture that James Holmes may have been involved in mind-altering neuroscience research and ended up becoming involved at a depth he never anticipated.
quote lifted from natural news.
My mother wondered the same about me when I was doing neuroscience research and she didn't want me to do any psychology or neuroscience courses. I had severe problems with bullying and harassment and I even had to change university to try to aleviate the problem but she assumed that when you (I in my case) study mental illnesses, you actually end up getting them.
sorry for being out of context but the quote reminded me of that. And I liked studying neuroscience even thought the work I did was mostly uninteresting drill...
A.L.
Leslie in FL,
Did you lift that quote verbatim from F'book? If so, then I'd say this "Dr." is rather too illiterate to be real. That is some kind of terrible grammar and sentence structure for an educated professional. Never mind that he apparently dreged Old Trope Bay and slopped all of the muck down to be slogged through on F'book. I doubt he's really an M.D. Anyone of the regulars here could offer solid rebuttal to his nonsense, and all that would be left after our fearless leader was done with him would be a small stain where the good "doctor" once stood.
Dr. Ryan French is a chiropractor in Oklahoma City.
I don't debate chiropractors about vaccines.
There is already conjecture that James Holmes may have been involved in mind-altering neuroscience research and ended up becoming involved at a depth he never anticipated.
There is also conjecture that the President's Illuminati controllers staged the incident to facilitate a complete ban on privately-owned firearms.
Same tinfoil, different lunacy.
@Candy - the reality - reading this to the teenaged boys in my living room and one of them asked, "What's whooping cough?" When people don't realize how bad these "childhood illnesses" (makes them even sound insignificant in a way, doesn't it?) were, they don't understand a reason for vaccinating.
Mrs Woo:
What a wonderful world we live in where there are still places where people can ask that question.
Too bad the anti-vaxxers are trying to take that world away.
@Composer99/Mrs. Woo: No kidding. It worries me too that many doctors now have never seen many vaccine-preventable diseases except in textboooks - the anti-vax crowd is taking a bigger risk than they think if their kid's pediatrician or the ED doc isn't clinically experienced in diagnosis and treatment if things go very, very wrong with these "natural" diseases.
@Leslie: Note that I'm just a layman lurker here, but a couple links that might help you out:
http://antiantivax.flurf.net/#Vaccines_in_General
http://sciencebasedpharmacy.wordpress.com/2012/04/09/antivax-101-tactic…
The first few sentences of the chiropractors rambling argument, though, seems to be complete denial of the concept of herd immunity - i.e., that vaccination only protects individuals, but doesn't prevent the disease from spreading. Apparently all vaccinated people for all diseases are Typhoid Marys - the elimination of smallpox and the near-elimination of polio through vaccination appears to be irrelevant. I'd have to leave it to an expert to describe the life-cycle of any contagious disease we currently vaccinate against, but another link anyway.
http://www.vaccinetimes.com/how-do-we-know-that-herd-immunity-exists/
Unfortunately the anti-vax crowd can be pretty deep in their dogmatic rabbit hole - anything you say or cite is going to be dismissed as bogus for one reason or another. Best you could hope for is to reach any fence-sitters.
Once when I was discussing his childhood with my stepuncle I discovered my brother didn't know what an iron lung was. My stepuncle was pleased with this - when he was young polio was everyone's worst fear.
@shay,
Unfortunately, I can't comment further on your comment, having nothing to add about me or my mother or anything relating to Mike Adams.
A.L.
Composer99:
Money, huh? Not love of God or love of one's fellow man, but love of Mammon?
These nutters aren't ravenous wolves. At least wolves know when they're full. No, these people are demons, seeking only to harm and corrupt.
How can anybody possibly take these people seriously or follow them except for a cheap laugh? I say we stop listening to these demons, and maybe then they will scuttle back into the darkness they came from.
@Leslie
That Dr. Ryan French fellow is a chiropractor who follows Dr. Joe Merccola. Quacktacular!
You could shut down your debate with the Rabies gambit. Just ask your opponent whether s/he would like to gain natural immunity against rabies. Or perhaps ask them what happened to smallpox?
A.L. - I was utterly serious. There are honest to God wingnuts out there who believe the entire thing was staged as part of an anti-gun campaign.
You're forgetting the Rabies Doesn't Exist Gambit.
Rats, that was the Rabies Is Much Ado About Nothing Gambit. The correct one is here.
And of course there is the ever popular Smallpox is Now Just Called Chickenpox. Ignore the fact the two diseases don't resemble each other for the most part.
dedicated lurker - how could they not resemble each other? They're both called pox, aren't they? And chickens are small birds by comparison to, say, ostriches. They both have fever and pustules. And they both had a 30% fatality rate....
Wait, what?
Thanks Shay,
I don't want to lump my mother with them (nor the antivax but she listened to me on that count) and I also believe you regarding the gun wingnuts but in the case of psychology (or my favorite, psychobiology) she won't budge.
A.L.
NO, no, no, you guys have it all wrong. The *latest* "smallpox was never eradicated gambit" is that we have *deliberately* misnamed smallpox as monkey pox. Scroll down to today's comments:
http://shotofprevention.com/2012/07/17/global-poverty-project-and-the-e…
lilady, I remember hearing that claim from John Scudamore (the whale.to guy) a decade ago on Usenet.
Sammy and Putinreloaded are both delusional loons. All we can do is post real information, and get them to justify themselves.
@Chris & lilady - those two are impossible to deal with.
I'm ignoring them from now on - it is a no-win situation, regardless of what proof is presented, they will always find a reason to disregard it.
Chris and Lawrence...I don't want them to shut down any thread that we are posting on.
Remember when the SFB Troll was posting on RI. We just discussed things around It. Let's try that with the sockies.
I did. We had a great time.
Anyway, we were talking and I remembered that I think I saw a man I guessed was African of some nationality t'other day and I'm pretty sure he had smallpox scars on his face.
He looked to be in late middle age (some grey in his hair) so that would be about right, time-wise, if he was born in the 1950s or early 1960s.
Excellent idea lilady. If we don't engage them, maybe they will get frustrated and go away.
@ Lawrence and @ Liz Ditz: I'm back now, posting on that website. Please feel free to join me.
@ Liz Ditz: You are with "Ren" in S.F., eh? Say hello to him.
I'm not going to directly respond to anything Putin has to say - let her talk to vacuum as far as I am concerned.
I shall also not directly speak to her. I can't believe what she did to claim that the rate of measles went down each and every decade, but only if you pick certain decades.
@ Lawrence:
After reading through that thread, I'll just comment that choosing a 'nym celebrating Vladimir... well, just speaks volumes.
And i don't think that EFL/ ESL is the problem.
@lilady
Although I am utter tempted to troll back at them, I'm holding back
Besides, the posters you describe certainly are shooting themselves in the foot well enough, with putin veering into conspiracy theory.
It's all I can do not to laugh at them.
@Chris
It works for the AGW denialsts.
I've responded to some of the comments...now it is *your turn* to post.
I'll be baaaack...after I cook for dear hubby.
Denice Walter:
Yeah, she has made herself infamous on at least one Spanish forum. I love that the first hit is a conversion titled: "Es el subnormal de Putinreloaded un bot?"
@Chris - OMG. What has been seen cannot be unseen....from what I can gleam (and my Spanish is pretty awful), she is anti-Semitic, anti-American, an HIV-denialist, among other things.....wow, just wow.
@ Chris:
I wouldn't be surprised.
Hilariously enough, I got a great laugh because one of my international banker** cousins worked in Russia and has been in the same room at the same time as Putin and was asked to speak ( probably about divers arcane internal measures that no one else understands) ! - Scary scenario but he lived.
** not a big wheel but useful.
Okay guys, I'm back on line now...
http://shotofprevention.com/2012/07/26/vaccine-questions-answered-the-r…
I've responded to all your comments...come and join me...I'm having so much fun.
@lilady
Actually, it is kind of fun to see putin's really unhinged rants, exposing herself as the utter nutjob he/she/it really is.
Pretty funny I say.
@ novalox: putin's sockie seems to have disappeared. Gray Falcon went on line to compare the conspiracy theories about the bombing of the World Trade Center, to the *renaming* of smallpox into monkey pox. We are having fun with that one.
Actually, I compared it to claiming the World Trade Center was still standing. I'm pretty sure smallpox was a much bigger killer than monkey pox ever was. That's not something that can be covered up.
@ Gray Falcon: Yes, the anti-vaccine crowd is getting frantic now...as we approach the time when polio will be obliterated...by *claiming* that polio really never went away.
They are still unaware of the what a differential diagnosis is (more germ theory denialism).
Hi Lawrence, lilady and various shills of Big Pharma... your vacuum is most welcome, as I can debunk you without you resorting to ad hominems and such.
"..as we approach the time when polio will be obliterated…by *claiming* that polio really never went away. .."
Pre-1960 polio included all 11 paralytic illnesses called AFP today. From 1960 the term "polio" got restriceted to AFP whit the condition that poliovirus was present.
This simple revision of the definition (from 11 illnesses to just 1) accounts for the "miraculous" drop of incidence which is nevertheless attributed to the vaccine. Gross trick.
PutinReloaded, please define the term "ad hominem".
No, PutinReloaded just resorts to blatant insults. And there is no debunking when she argue through straight assertion. Even the most brain dead claim that there are not vaccine preventable diseases.
Google it up, Gray! lazy bum! (this was an ad hominem).
@putinreloaded
Looked at your website. Nice to know that you are an anti-semite, racist, and AIDS denialist.
Yes, I am all that and more... but you still have to prove me wrong!
It looks like another one just as delusional as Thingy. She/he should provide much amusement here.
Just wait Chris...she has a sock puppet...double the fun.
@lilady - this should be fun......we haven't seen Thingy around in a while, perhaps we can get them to date...a practical Woo-topia love connection.
And this would be a problem how, given that poliovirus is what the vaccine is for? (Do also list your 11, Peaches.)
@PutinReloaded
No, it was most likely merely an insult. Of course, since you're incapable of providing a useful response, nothing you say can be believed (that, by the way, was an ad hominem).
So pre 1960 we erroneously attributed instances of paralytic illinesses caused by virii etc. other than polio to the polio virus whileafter 1960 we did not--and as a result could accurately determine the actual incidence of polio and evaluate the efficacy of prophylatic immunization against polio.
I'm sorry but I fail to see the problem here. Are really you suggesting we would do better to continue to blame the polio virus for paralytic illnesses it didn't cause?
"Once when I was discussing his childhood with my stepuncle I discovered my brother didn’t know what an iron lung was. My stepuncle was pleased with this – when he was young polio was everyone’s worst fear"
On another forum currently there are antivax loons arguing on the one hand that since most polio infections are asymptomatic or mild, the disease is no big deal - and simultaneously claiming that Evil Forces could synthesize polio in a lab for germ warfare, therefore eradication efforts via vaccination are futile. Hello? Either it's an insignificant illness or it's a potential weapon of mass destruction; can't be both.
Antivaxers are also going on about acute flaccid paralysis cases in less developed/Third World nations, which just gotta be due to oral polio vaccine (and not to wild-type polio, other enteroviruses or any of the other myriad causes of this entity).
Somebody digs up this stuff and it rapidly metastasizes to all the antivax sites (I would say it "goes viral" but that seems in bad taste).
DB:
Half the time they are getting the condensed version, and have no clue about any of the details. One of the recent canards is a some whistle-blower lawsuit claiming Merck had been lying about the efficacy of the mumps portion of the MMR. I ask them which strain (listing three or four that do exist, sometimes a study that compares them), and there is no response.
puitinreloaded, classic example of Dunning-Kreuger, and a anti-semite racist at that.
And that is a provable fact.
Wasn't putinreloaded the person who couldn't manage simple division a few weeks ago on the "Shot of Prevention" blog?
[Insert creative and enthusiastic cursing over lack of the triviality known as "preview."]
Yes, I believe it was. Have you seen how he treats the measles incidence data? Now that is classic cherry picking!
He now claims to make 13 thousand Euros a month. He is either delusional or not being honest.
Oh, wait... he cherry picks stuff all the time. I'm voting on not being honest.
@ Chris...do we really know if putin is a he/she or it?
Gee...I wish we had the putin bot around, to go over to the blog.
I think it might be a "he". I don't know why I thought the bot was feminine. Where did you get the clerk or art researcher bit from?
I notice he does not like hanging around here too much.
What is it with Brett? How can someone actually use a keyboard and be that clueless? I am trying so hard to call him an idiot on that blog, but it is so difficult.
What is it with Brett? How can someone actually use a keyboard and be that clueless? I am trying so hard to call him an idiot on that blog, but it is so difficult.
This blog is acting flaky.
@Chris - tax free even, in Europe that isn't even a phrase used by anyone.......I think Insane Troll has a European clone.
Narad said: "...(Do also list your 11, Peaches.)..."
Google them up, lazy bum! it's common encyclopedical knowledge!
Having looked at the output of "putin," a number of modifications would be required to the stock model. The misspellings would have to be parsed and then binned for output selection, and a bit of additional logic would be required for all the freaking smileys. It would be nice to try to reproduce the boldface as well.
While we had been thinking of redoing the whole thing in Scheme, which would have simplified this tremendously, it just never came to pass. Then again, perhaps we'll get bored.
I'm back online now with deranged troll...as are Gray Falcon and Kelly. Come and join us.
I don't understand when Putinreloaded sleeps? If he is living in Spain, why is he posting when it is very late for us?
@Chris - well, you know, with all of that Tax-Free money coming it, he must not have to do much work.....or, we've got a European Ted Kaczynski on our hands.
Oh Lord! What a piece of work! Unfortunately, my services are required elsewhere or I'd stay for the pyrotechnics..
OK, I'll tally:
one "M-f@cker"
one "Vaccine Church"
one "bimbo"
various pharma-shill refs
I hope the real Mr Putin doesn't find out that someone is signing his name to rants. He won't be happy.
I'll be offline for a few hours this afternoon...please have fun with the Clerk. I'll join you guys later.
I think I made a mistake in engaging him. He doesn't even seem to understand how honesty works.
Putin: You made the statement...it is your responsibility to provide the supporting documentation.
"Google them up yourself, lazy bum" and provide the supporting documentation, Peaches.
(Clerk's postings are so deranged now...I'm beginning to think that I'm replying to the putin bot)
@lilady
Don't you just love precious little putin's nonanswers?
Chupe mantequilla de mi culo, Duraznitos.
@ novalox: I swear that I am reply to a bot...no human could be that stupid.
@ Narad: You always had a way with words and catchy little phrases.
@lilady - I truly believe we may have found someone even more stupid and insane than our idiot insane troll.......
@LAwrence
Well, when you are blinded by that much illogic, hatred, and bigotry, well, things that seem utterly off the deep end and illogical by most intelligent humans will seem logical to some.
Simple answer: It would be far easier to cause depopulation by letting everyone get sick. Seriously, smallpox killed literally millions of people. It's gone now.
Wait, there are still HIV denialists out there? You'd think the Tshabalala fiasco would've writ large what happens when you turn away from ABC (Abstain, Be faithful, use Condoms) for SOW (Supplements and Other Woo).