The CDC whistleblower William W. Thompson: One last word

I know that when last I commented, I expressed the desire to move on from the topic of the CDC whistleblower case after having covered it for a week. And so was my intent. However, this being a holiday in the US and my having had an odd experience on Friday led me to think that one last update is in order. Those not familiar with the story can recap here:

Over the weekend, there have been a lot of attacks directed at those who have made critical comments about Brian Hooker and his conspiracy theory, or who have, quite reasonably, pointed out that the statement of the “CDC whistleblower,” senior CDC scientist William W. Thompson, does not demonstrate that the CDC engaged in a “massive coverup” of evidence showing that MMR vaccination is associated with autism in African American males. These days, the attacks are coming in the form of a potentially libelous CNN iReport regurgitating Jake Crosby’s unfounded charges, and, of course, Twitter attacks galore:

This all sounds rather...threatening. One wonders if Ms. McClelland thinks it’s wise to post such Tweets.

There was a time when such vilification would have bothered me, but I’m used to it now. Indeed, I wear it as a badge of honor. They don’t have anything else, and the intensity of the vitriol directed at me is proportional to my effectiveness in dismantling antivaccine claims.

Of course, the biggest unknown in this entire misbegotten saga is William W. Thompson, the “CDC whistleblower.” Over the last week and a half, I’ve wanted to ask him time and time again, “What on earth were you thinking?” Thompson now writes in his statement that he is willing to collaborate with “unbiased and objective scientists” to reanalyze vaccine safety datasets. That’s great. But, if that’s the case, why on earth did he ever contact Brian Hooker? Oddly enough, there are some Tweets that ask the key questions about Thompson’s motivations that echoed my own questions:

Excellent questions. At first, I thought we were left with two potential explanations. One was that Thompson had gone antivaccine. I don’t think he has, but some selected quotes publicized in which he criticized recommending the thimerosal-containing version of the flu vaccine for pregnant women, stating that it causes tics in children and tics are “autism-like.” So, although I don’t think he’s gone antivaccine (yet), he’s clearly imbibed at least some of that world view from Hooker. The other possibility was that Thompson had an unresolved scientific disagreement with his co-authors, a “beef,” if you will, that he is now resolving. But if that were the case, then surely there must have been better ways to resolve that than cozying up to an antivaccinationist who has been trying to get first Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) and then Rep. Bill Posey (R-FL) to hold hearings looking into a vaccine-autism link.

Friday, I was made aware of a possible third reason.

Based on some of my previous posts over at the not-so-secret other blog, I was unexpectedly contacted by Rick Morgan, William Thompson’s lawyer, who wanted to speak with me. So I gave him my number, and he called me on Friday. It was a brief, but very strange conversation. Morgan didn’t tell me much, but I didn’t expect him to, although he stated that he understood that I thought Thompson either had a beef with his co-investigators or had gone off the deep end. However, he wanted to “plant a seed” that maybe—just maybe—there might be another explanation, that this had been torturing Thompson all these years and he just had to do something because he couldn’t take it any more.

And maybe that is true. I have no way of knowing. I do know that, whatever his motivation, Thompson had done horrible damage and almost certainly endangered African American children to suffer from measles who might not have contracted it otherwise.

Assuming that what Mr. Morgan told me in that brief, cryptic conversation is true, it just goes to show how a guilty conscience, whether justified or not, can drive a man to do some really stupid things. Make no mistake, there is no doubt that what Thompson did was either incredibly naive and/or stupid. Maybe his conscience was torturing him for a decade. Again, who knows?

That thought led me to another thought, though. The central conspiracy theory of the antivaccine movement states that scientists and bureaucrats at the CDC are involved in a massive coverup of The Truth, undeniable scientific evidence that vaccines cause autism, all done in the service of big pharma. Now think about Thompson again. If what Morgan says is true, then Thompson’s conscience has been torturing him over a relatively scientific disagreement in which he didn’t really believe, based on the data presented in DeStefano et al, that there was a true correlation between MMR vaccination and autism, but he did believe that further studies should be done. Now his conscience has led him to ruin his scientific career and reputation over just that.

Now imagine if there had been a real conspiracy to suppress compelling evidence indicating that vaccines cause autism. In that case, there wouldn’t just be a single man torturing himself over decisions made, as Thompson, if we believe Morgan, apparently has. It would be men and women at every level of the CDC. If the CDC couldn’t “keep Thompson quiet” over this, if Thompson was willing to risk destroying his career over a small subgroup analysis with almost certainly spurious results that weren’t followed up on when he thought they should be, imagine what would happen if real data demonstrating a strong link between vaccines and autism had been covered up. There would be Bill Thompsons crawling out of the woodwork everywhere, beginning not long after the coverup began. To believe the CDC whistleblower conspiracy theory, you have to believe that virtually everyone at the CDC is either so ideologically blinded that they would have no trouble covering up a definite link between vaccines and autism or that they’re all so terrified that they stay silent.

Indeed, as a commenter this morning put it:

As for the three scientists discussed in the article, we all know full well that these men are NOT performing these experiments alone. There are people working under their direction with direct access to the data and ought to have seen this train wreck coming as well.

This is exactly the reason why, although I have little doubt that large organizations can cover up relatively minor issues, which is what Thompson’s insinuations amount to, they can’t for long cover up something huge, such as intentionally covering up a link between vaccines and autism. Ironically, the case of William Thompson is an excellent example of why such conspiracy theory beliefs are so incredibly implausible. Indeed, it reads like a bad movie script.

Worse for Thompson, even the tinfoil hat conspiracy contingent won’t be giving him much love any time soon. See, for instance, Ken Heckenlively’s post at the antivaccine crank blog Age of Autism this morning:

I really do want to thank Dr. Thompson for coming forward at this time, although it would have been much better if he'd done it earlier, when his conscience first troubled him. I think of the good scientists, like Dr. Andrew Wakefield, Dr. Brian Hooker, or my co-author, Dr. Judy Mikovits, who held firm to their principles. Wakefield has often said that the MMR controversy has cost him, "His job, his career, and his country." Dr. Mikovits has endured a similar level of torment as have other honest scientists who have presented inconvenient findings. For me, that is the definition of scientific courage. Scientists like Wakefield, Hooker, and Mikovits would NEVER dream of concealing data. For them, that would be the equivalent of a crime against humanity.

Of course, this statement shows such a breathtaking lack of awareness that it’s hard not to guffaw out loud. After all, Andrew Wakefield almost certainly committed gross scientific fraud far worse than even the most uncharitable interpretation of Thompson’s insinuations of fraud could ever support, and Brian Hooker tortured data in a manner most foul until it “confessed.” If you don’t believe me, take a gander at Hooker’s talk in front of a cancer quackery conference in which he brags at around 17:00 how “simple” the technique he used was and how “simplicity is elegance” in statistics and how he likes to do “simple” things rather than intellectually challenging things. Any statistician will tell you is a load of fetid dingo’s kidneys. He also at around 27:30 basically admitted that he recorded Thompson’s conversations, but claims he did so legally. Finally, arguably, Mikovitz is a bigger fraud than Wakefield. Yet Heckenlively views them as “heroes” because they are on “his” side and support his pseudoscientific quack beliefs.

The bottom line is that the antivaccine movement is very much like a cult. They follow their heros and reject any information that disconfirms their beliefs. There is one good thing, though. Andrew Wakefield’s behavior in this whole sordid affair was so vile, his lies so obvious, that even one of his acolytes realized it. If that can happen with a true believer, maybe that true believer will eventually realize that the rest of the antivaccine world view is built on pseudoscience, quackery, and lies. And if one can come to that realization, maybe others can.

A guy can hope, can’t he?

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Scientists like Wakefield, Hooker, and Mikovits would NEVER dream of concealing data. For them, that would be the equivalent of a crime against humanity.

Now I've hurt myself laughing. How could anyone possibly believe something so obviously untrue? Not for the first time I wonder about some people's mental health. That's seriously deluded. isn't it?

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 01 Sep 2014 #permalink

Who is this devilishly handsome lad named "David Gorski" on Twitter? Is Orac an admirer of him?

By c0nc0rdance (not verified) on 01 Sep 2014 #permalink

Eventually following the conspiracy theory path, building more elaborate and multiple specious connections, leads to the conclusion that every one else must be in on the plot.

@Krebiozen: But Wakefield never concealed data...he just concealed conflicts of interest (his competing vaccine), the fact the "volunteers" in his study were recruited with an agenda, and that the information was uh...massaged....a bit to become clearer. CERTAINLY he never concealed data! Why, he even have it out for people to see how (un) real it was!

(Now I feel dirty and need to go shower. Just thinking of Wakeflied makes me feel slimy all over).

Darn.

Any hope of resurrecting the Mystery Tweets?

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 01 Sep 2014 #permalink

ORC writes "The bottom line is that the antivaccine movement is very much like a cult. They follow their heros and reject any information that disconfirms their beliefs."

The Pro-Vaxers can also be characterized as a cult rejecting any information about the deleterious effects of vaccines.

Their scientism makes them blind, since scientism is the perversion of science that makes it a powerful Belief System (B.S.) just like a materialistic religion.

No matter how much evidence is presented, Pro-Vaxers remain immune to the reality that vaccines are part of a strategic global depopulation campaign and do nothing but cripple its victims with autism, tics and other horrific disabilities.

This is the corruption and perfidy of the pharmaceutical industry and those who defend it -- and this is the pseudo-science hoodoo of the Pro-Vaxers that is being exposed day by day...

Don't they teach the simple truths of Hippocrates, the Father of Medicine, in medical school who said "Let your food be your medicine"?

Or have they substituted this with the promotion of petrochemical meds -- since the Greek word for sorcery is the word "pharmacopeia," a word used to describe prescription drugs?

Shame on you so-called doctors and sorceror wannabes!

" a breathtaking lack of awareness" saith Orac.

I feel like that frequently as I peruse AoA,TMR, AI et al and I'll venture - which will probably get me in trouble as it did when our friend, Mr D, said something similar years ago- that many of who write at these outlets have difficulty evaluating others and themselves- which we could possibly expect because ASD run in families** ( as well as exhibiting *de novo* expression). Parents are older and less likely to have been diagnosed although it is entirely possible to have problems with person perception, social cognition and related abilities- which may ( or may not) develop during adolescence and early adulthood- attributed to other psychological issues other than ASD.

We often see a stunning lack of self-evaluation when SBM or psychology is criticised by parents lacking even a basic background in these discipline: Hooker takes on the CDC; Dachel scolds liars in the media; web alt media magnates preach about crorruption in science and the sad state of higher education; Jake attrubtes malfeasance everywhere he looks.( continued- )

* similarly, people related to those with schizophrenia w/o a dx themselves have more cognitive problems than would be expected if they had no relatives with the SMI.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 01 Sep 2014 #permalink

Nevermind.

Apparently they took a long time to load.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 01 Sep 2014 #permalink

No matter how much evidence is presented, Pro-Vaxers remain immune to the reality that vaccines are part of a strategic global depopulation campaign and do nothing but cripple its victims with autism, tics and other horrific disabilities.

What is the world population today?  What was it a hundred years ago? Or even fifty?  This depopulation project doesn't seem to be working so well. 

Tics are an "horrific disability"?  A coworker in our office has tics. You get used to it; you hardly notice it anymore after a very short time. It's not like someone who was, say, deafened or blinded, or brain damaged -- or dead -- from vaccine-preventable disease. 

I'm not claiming to speak for others, but there are autistic people who read and comment here who probably don't consider themselves to be afflicted with an "horrific disability". 

Keep in mind if we're going to toss around a "cult" tag, and wherever the science may take us on this, that we have parents and kids severely affected by ASD with no answer as to what happened, why it happened, and even worse, terrible access to health care resources.

We really don't have a good correlation on all genetic predisposing factors leading someone into an inflammatory response and a potential brain injury. Even though a preponderance of evidence shows us a highly unlikely tie between autism and vaccines, we can't say that there have been no vaccine injuries whatsoever. I don't believe that any drug is 100% safe, to say that they are seems as short-sighted as the pseudo-science that keeps getting pumped out.

The study in question sucked, exhibited troubling bias, and was pulled; open peer review as it should be.

I wish we could move on, and look into ways to offer genetic predisposition to parents and health care providers so that they have better picture from which to make an informed decision about their kids.

Thank you for reading.

It's possible that an adult can be unable to make reasonably accurate estimates of others' motivations and personal values when they differ from their own.

Remember MacNeil's screed against physicians? Or the hatred commonly directed against many SB sceptics? This may stem from a lack of ability evaluating others and a mis- understanding of how they function. Often a TM fancies herself profficient enough to criticise the current state of immunology or gastrolenterology without benefit of a degree. Would she attempt to diagnose her car if it stopped running? Probably not, but that is a more concrete situation- much easier to deal with and unlike the nearly abstract,- because they're unknown to her- vagueries of physiological functioning.

A commenter referred to Jake as 'bright'- I might agree if that quaility included only Q&V portions of standardised tests but USUALLY I define ability in social terms as well.
Three years ago I asked Jake whether he thought that an enormous conspiracy- involving thousands of participants in science, industry, governments and the media, worldwide- existed or was it simply a guy who fixed date. You can easily imagine his response. I asked if he thought that his beliefs about vaccines might affect his future occupational prospects.

Looking over the many posts and comments at the aforementioned websites, we can observe frequent mistaken attributions and mis-statements about others' motivations as well as misguided self-evaluations. For example, most of us are characterised as 'pharma shills' without any evidence- which is a huge misjudgment about our actions and motives.

Of course, some may believe that I write as I have because I want to make fun of people- that's partially true: I DO want to ridicule charlatans who profit off of their marks' unhappiness and health problems BUT I feel truly sorry for parents who suffer because their children have serious conditions, including autism: their lives are not a walk in the park. They do need help in dealing with difficult living situation-s which is readily available.HOWEVER I doubt that they will find meaningful assistance in the facebook page/ Kaffeeklatsch group therapy ( gone wrong) on which they currently rely.

Even the self-aggrandising, self-appointed experts/ warriors/ writers behave so as an escape from an unbearable life situation fraught with helplessness, stress and fear as they guide others into taking the same path - a mighty wrong turn.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 01 Sep 2014 #permalink

Pro-Vaxers remain immune to the reality that vaccines are part of a strategic global depopulation campaign

The chemtrails must have numbed our senses in some way.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 01 Sep 2014 #permalink

MESSAGE BEGINS-----------------------------------------

Good Day to you Shills and Minions,

One of you (who shall remain nameless) had sent a request to Orbital this morning that I only just received regarding this "BOB" thing. It was as follows:

"Your Worshipfulness, we have a new troll. He's super cute. Can we keep him?

Trembling in Fear of Your Grim Visage,
NAME REDACTED"

Well, I can understand your delight at receiving such a gift as this. Before you start to play with it, however, please read this analysis from the ladies on Level 7 . . .

ORC (sic) writes “The bottom line is that the antivaccine movement is very much like a cult. They follow their heros and reject any information that disconfirms their beliefs.”

The Pro-Vaxers can also be characterized as a cult rejecting any information about the deleterious effects of vaccines.

Now, you see a dim awareness of our tactics forming in its tiny head. Will this lead to greater discovery or will it be distracted by a pencil or a pat of butter and forget all about The Great Subjugation of Terra™? Let's see . . .

Their scientism makes them blind, since scientism is the perversion of science that makes it a powerful Belief System (B.S.) just like a materialistic religion.

No matter how much evidence is presented, Pro-Vaxers remain immune to the reality that vaccines are part of a strategic global depopulation campaign and do nothing but cripple its victims with autism, tics and other horrific disabilities.

Hmmmm, the pat of butter usually works. Maybe this one is smarter than I had suspected. It has clearly found some information on our planetary soporifics operation. Perhaps it looked up from its collection of pencils, buttons and twigs and saw our chemtrail operations in the sky above it. But, depopulation? Really? Why would we want to reduce the number of docile, compliant slave monkeys we have worked so hard to create? The outer rim colonies need labor! Still, caution is advised . . .

This is the corruption and perfidy of the pharmaceutical industry and those who defend it — and this is the pseudo-science hoodoo of the Pro-Vaxers that is being exposed day by day…

Don’t they teach the simple truths of Hippocrates, the Father of Medicine, in medical school who said “Let your food be your medicine”?

Intelligence points for use of "perfidy." Not sure who this Hippo person is, but Achravaak of Glaxxon once said, "Let your enemies be your food." Hmmmmm . . . another red flag.

Or have they substituted this with the promotion of petrochemical meds — since the Greek word for sorcery is the word “pharmacopeia,” a word used to describe prescription drugs?

Shame on you so-called doctors and sorceror (sic) wannabes

I don't know about you, but "Fabulous" is the word I would use to describe prescription drugs. What a silly little creature this is. Alright. You may keep it since, in the end, it seems harmless enough. But don't forget to feed it regularly and apply MonkeyMist™ soporifics until it is nice and pliable and ready for work on the colonies once you've tired of it.

Enjoy your new toy Shills and Minions,
Lord Draconis Zeneca, VH7ihL
Forward Mavoon of the Great Fleet, Pharmaca Magna of Terra, Exchequer of PharmaLucre

Glaxxon PharmaCOM Terrabase DIA
0010111101010001010111001010111001

----------------------------------------MESSAGE ENDS

By Glaxxon Pharma… (not verified) on 01 Sep 2014 #permalink

Or have they substituted this with the promotion of petrochemical meds — since the Greek word for sorcery is the word “pharmacopeia,” a word used to describe prescription drugs?

*koff*

I have to apologise for the many typos above- I was in a rush as my computer was acting baulkishly and refusing to comply with my entreaties for it for behave properly.

But before I traipse off...
I find the tweets Orac displayed above unsettling :
they remind me of the vehement hatred I often encounter at anti-vax/ woo websites and comment sections- they envision professionals and SBM supporters as the enemy - deserving of retribution or punishment for the *harms* they perpetrated- the crimes that resulted in 'vaccine injury'.Threats may proceed towards action, especially if they are sanctioned by those respected in their community

Do I fear for Orac and SBM supporters?
Not really- they mostly know how to take care of themselves.

But I wonder if surrogate targets might bear the brunt of this scorn? The nurse who vaccinates children for their city or a vocal epi with a blog who works for a health department might get calls to their respective employers or hear outrageous accusations.

Most importantly, those who indulge in revenge fantasies do harm to themselves as well because rather than seeking verbal and legal solutions, they resort habitually to vitriolic outbursts for catharsis- which solve nothing.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 01 Sep 2014 #permalink

A friend from Atlanta came up to visit, and she told me a very interesting story:

Imagine that there is a psychologist who took his required public health and epidemiology courses to work at CDC but never really practiced them. Imagine that all he did was look over medical records and make sure that cases are cases and controls are controls. There is no lab test for diagnosing autism, so they need to use medical records and behavioral services notes. He does this for a while and is paid well. After all, it's hard to pin down autism. Autistics come in a wife variety of presentations. He's done good research and helped a lot, but he's kept low.

One day, in a meeting to look at results of a study, the psychologist sees a table where there is a statistically significant finding. He doesn't say anything or ask any questions. He just files it away and it eats at him. He doesn't understand that the effect went away in the conditional (adjusted) analysis. He think that THAT is data manipulation. When he tries to tell his colleagues that those associations should be looked into, they try to explain to him why they're spurious associations.

As the years go by, it continues to eat at him that there are tables out there where statistically significant associations are found but are then lost when data analysis is done. The analysis is proper, but he doesn't understand. He sees it as data manipulation.

He wants those spurious associations investigated, but it is explained to him that it's hard enough to get autistic cases as it is. Prevalence is around 1% in all children, and it is smaller in, say, poor Black children because they don't have access to good diagnosticians. So getting 1,000 children of the attributes seen in the spurious associations means screening millions of children for nothing. The analysis, a proper analysis, has shown that they would be chasing windmills. But he still doesn't understand.

He turns to different avenues to try and get at those spurious associations and investigate them further, but he gets nowhere with his colleagues. Some even go as far as laugh at him and label him with names that most possibly hurt him. Then along comes a biochemist with a PhD and questions that mimic the psychologist's about statistically significant findings that are either not meaningful or are explained away by adjusting for confounders. They strike up a conversation and the rest is history.

This is all from a friend, over coffee, on a Saturday morning. Take it with a grain of salt.

By Reuben Gaines (not verified) on 01 Sep 2014 #permalink

Denice,
I concur. However, threats of decapitation, joking, metaphorical or whatever, don't seem particularly amusing to me, given recent events.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 01 Sep 2014 #permalink

BOB @ 6:
since the Greek word for sorcery is the word “pharmacopeia,”
Is it really so hard to look things up and discover that No, you're fullash1t?

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 01 Sep 2014 #permalink

So all we know from Thompson's lawyer is that there may be a third possibility? I don't know how these legal things work, but do you suppose we'll ever find out what that was?
(....what ever happened to F Arguello? Gosh, I remember when he was harrassing you big time)(and it seems sooo long ago now)

By nutritionprof (not verified) on 01 Sep 2014 #permalink

From "Russell Saunders" (the pseudonym of a pediatrician practicing in the Northeast US)

Antivaxxers Have A New Hero

In short, not only did experts outside of the CDC verify the original study, but Dr. Hooker’s new paper likely reaches the findings it does because he uses the wrong kind of analysis for the data set....So not only were whatever qualms Dr. Thompson had insufficient to have him remove his name from the original study, they were neither enough to make him speak out publicly in the decade since nor have him willingly attach his name to any effort to debunk it. Not a lot of air tooting that whistle, no matter what the video would lead viewers to believe.

Reuben at #17:

Interesting story. But does it really line up with a certain researcher's publication history?

You really should take any message that is even remotely threatening and refer it to the proper authorities. Those folks will be VERY unhappy when the FBI comes calling.

That is ultimately the only way to moderate such behavior.

By Michael Finfer, MD (not verified) on 01 Sep 2014 #permalink

There is a comment at Jake's blog where Barry says

...no-one will be around to explain the science. Because there isn’t any.

http://www.autisminvestigated.com/whistleblower-wakefield-outed/#commen…

That's something I've noticed at Jake's blog. He never discusses the science of, well, anything. As near as I can tell, it's just a gossip column.

I would suspect that someone working towards a PhD would at least mention when he learns something that supports his "theories". Maybe he's learning that science doesn't support his "theories". Maybe he knows his teachers will laugh at him if he tries. Either way, he only talks about who's naughty and who's nice.

He might be a bright kid, but I'm not seeing a lot of it. But I will admit I get a guilty pleasure from reading his blog.

I'm really not sure how Jake got his degree....GWU (my alma mater) might not be the best program in the country, but it certainly isn't the worst either.

His blog is "interesting" and yes, it is merely an extension of his "6-degrees" conspiracy tactics. No science to be seen.

That’s something I’ve noticed at Jake’s blog. He never discusses the science of, well, anything. As near as I can tell, it’s just a gossip column.

Funny you should mention that as the very thought crossed my mind recently. He has the opportunity to discuss and defend Hooker's choice of statistics and given his education, you'd think he would but not a single word. You're right, he doesn't mention the science at all.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 01 Sep 2014 #permalink

Wakefield has often said that the MMR controversy has cost him, “His job, his career, and his country.”

He has, and he was lying. What cost him his job his career and his country was (a) his refusal of his employer's request that he replicate his February 1998 Lancet study; (b) his refusal to sincerely apologise for his misconduct in concealing from the public and his associates that he was hired in February 1996 by lawyers (at today's rate of $413 an hour) to attack MMR; and (c) his belief that he could make more money from parents of disabled children than he would ever make in academic research.

"Wakefield, Hooker, and Mikovits would NEVER dream of concealing data."

Oh yes? So how is it that two years after a complete description of all the data he concealed was put online, not one critique has challenged the page after page after page of concealments?

http://briandeer.com/solved/slapp-amended-declaration.pdf

Not one single patient in his case series was not subject of some form of concealment.

By Brian Deer (not verified) on 01 Sep 2014 #permalink

@Brian - any idea when we'll see a ruling in Texas?

I still get confused with you over at the AoA corral.....

Finally, arguably, Mikovit[s] is a bigger fraud than Wakefield.

She did at least put her name on the paper that laid the matter to rest.

@Reuben Gaines, that's exactly how I imagined things going as well. I also imagine a psychologist looking at 19 statistically significant results out of 380 results, seeing that one of those results associates tics with flu vaccines, and thinks that that one, surely, must be truly significant even though that other one, showing that thimerosal raises IQs in boys, is obviously just a chance result. And of course the epidemiologists and statisticians can't convince him otherwise.

The Potentially Libelous CNN iReport has been flagged and removed from the site. I guess it looked like it was goint to go from "potential" to "actual" libel.

By Pareidolius (not verified) on 01 Sep 2014 #permalink

We've already witnessed our colleagues (Orac, Ren and Reuben Gaines), being harassed on their jobs, by Jake Crosby and his former pals at Age of Autism.

The AoA yellow journalism editors (Dan Olmsted and John D. Stone), their contributing bloggers and posters have upped the ante, by publishing personal information about a law school professor, which has resulted in multiple harassing and threatening calls to her employer, to her husband at his place of business and to her home. I've heard those recordings of those threatening messages; they are vile.

I lay the blame on Olmsted, Stone and every other individual who posted that private information on Age of Autism.

@ Reuben Gaines: Have I missed something about Dr. Thompson's and Brian Hooker's credentials?

Do either of them have a MPH-Epidemiology degree which "might' qualify them to analyze the existing DeStefano et al study? (Hooker managed to analyze DeStefano et al as a cohort study...and managed to mess up his own statistical calculation).

Folks, Brian Deer is incredible humble when it comes to promoting his excellent investigative journalism :-)

Let's take a look at how almost 15,000,000 Pounds Sterling, was disbursed from the publicly-funded Legal Aid Board to Wakefield and his cronies, by the bottom feeding attorney Richard Barr...before any case was brought to court to sue the manufacturers of the MMR vaccine:

http://briandeer.com/wakefield/legal-aid.htm

Even after the entire Legal Aid Board funds were depleted, Mr. Barr strung potential plaintiffs along for years, never informing them that there were no funds available to sue the manufacturers of MMR vaccine for vaccine injuries:

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/26/mmr-autism-lawyers-sued-…

Hi Bob! Hey everybody, looks like Robert Poe has come to visit! XD

By BoxTurtle (not verified) on 01 Sep 2014 #permalink

What say the others here?

That it's tedious to do your homework for you? It's a conference presentation based on parental reporting and has exactly nothing to do with prevalence.

That says it was based on less than 1400 children enrolled in Autism Speaks Network Treatment Centers. So it is not a comparison of them to the general public.

It seems to differ from Prevalence of Autism Spectrum Disorder Among Children Aged 8 Years — Autism and Developmental Disabilities Monitoring Network, 11 Sites, United States, 2010, which consisted of over 360,000 children and says in the abstract:

Non-Hispanic white children were approximately 30% more likely to be identified with ASD than non-Hispanic black children and were almost 50% more likely to be identified with ASD than Hispanic children.

I suspect that the one listed in AAP News is reflecting differences in socioeconomic, location or other factors. Needless to say, it is very small and all under one organizational umbrella.

It seems to differ from Prevalence of Autism Spectrum Disorder Among Children Aged 8 Years — Autism and Developmental Disabilities Monitoring Network, 11 Sites, United States, 2010

Spinks-Franklin et al. is about regression, not prevalence of ASD.

@Olefin (32)
That may be the study announced here:
http://www.autismspeaks.org/science/science-news/regressive-autism-repo…

which was mentioned on the "bad day" thread.

I replied here:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/08/28/a-bad-day-for-antivaccinat…

I don't have access behind the paywall, but it appears to have been done using their database of patients in the Autism Speaks Autism Treatment Network.

We'd need to see the full study to evaluate it, but since it's based on their patients there may be a selection bias affecting the data.

Also, since they came up with numbers for regressive autism as distinct from all autism cases, it may just be that minority kids who just develop slowly (typical ASD) are less likely to get diagnosed than those who start to develop normally and then regress. Or, by the time they get diagnosed, the time frame or selective memory causes the patient to be diagnosed as regressive autism.

Without seeing the full report, we can't tell.

By squirrelelite (not verified) on 01 Sep 2014 #permalink

A few things:

If Thompson has a doctorate in psychology I'd expect him to be _at least_ acquainted with statistical analysis UNLESS if he's 100 years old or attended an incredibly abysmal university. Or else he's forgot what he learned.

I agree with Johnny- I'm not impressed with Jake's general skills either and wonder how he's got this far. As I noted earlier, he seems clueless about others' motivation; he may now have a little, tiny bit of insight into AJW's inner workings after these events. Then again, he may not.

When I 'conversed' with him, he seemed intelllectually paralysed, unable to think freely or even entertain my questions about the possibility that a certain researcher cheated. I wonder how he feels about Andy ( and Hooker, for that matter) now.

And yes, I'd call AI a gossip column but that's unfair to real gossip columns which don't pretend to be investigation.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 01 Sep 2014 #permalink

I just had an hilarious image in my mind's eye:

Jake, dis-enchanted by his former hero, burns the midnight oil poring over briandeer.com anxiously trying to get the goods on Andy so he can enlighten his own followers.

Jake, we told you about him years ago!

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 01 Sep 2014 #permalink

If Thompson has a doctorate in psychology I’d expect him to be _at least_ acquainted with statistical analysis UNLESS if he’s 100 years old or attended an incredibly abysmal university.

University of Virginia, 1994. I don't know what the deal is with his being in NCCDPHP/HRQOL, because the HHS directory listing is still NCBDDD.

If Thompson has a doctorate in psychology I’d expect him to be _at least_ acquainted with statistical analysis UNLESS if he’s 100 years old or attended an incredibly abysmal university. Or else he’s forgot what he learned.

I'm sure that by now you have heard some version of the following joke: 43% of statistics are made up on the spot. There are reasons why people laugh at that joke, among which is that there are people who take the statistical analyses of Hooker, Thompson, and others like them seriously. Or to put it another way: Figures can't lie, but liars can figure.

By Eric Lund (not verified) on 02 Sep 2014 #permalink

Anti-vax diehards have produced a video statement in response to a television news reader's admission that 'vaccines don't cause autism' ( CNN); it is being posted at all the usual places including #CDCwhistleblower facebook and consists of various mothers telling how vaccines caused autism *right before their eyes*. ( video clips are each under a minute). It appears that Robert Scott Bell and Jon Rapaport are somehow involved.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 02 Sep 2014 #permalink

The study about black and hispanic kids with autism being more likely to regress could also reflect a diminished ability to obtain good services to help the children. It might seem like a racial finding, but perhaps its' a *poverty* finding, and a sort of reverse vindication of the value of early intervention.

Meanwhile, the whole thing to me seems to be just a case of "green jelly beans cause acne", and reflects poorly on Thompson. Whatever the nebulous "third option" might turn out to be, I don't think he comes out of this looking very good.

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 02 Sep 2014 #permalink

@ Calli:

You know, I would tell those who are new to SBM/ SB psychology scepticism that whenever something like this pops up, to ask themselves whether the result is supported by other studies which hint at the same - does it stand out in the crowd of consensus or not.

Meaningful research needs to be replicated. Thus, Andy's 'project' never was repeated by those who weren't directly involved with him. Other research found contrary results and these also seem more in synch with related neuro- developmental research. Early on, it seemed suspicious to me because I knew about how EARLY development related to ASDs was.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 02 Sep 2014 #permalink

"he wanted to 'plant a seed' that maybe—just maybe—there might be another explanation, that this had been torturing Thompson all these years and he just had to do something because he couldn’t take it any more."

His[Thompsons] lawyer said that? No kidding!
That is just about word for word what would be a defense to any legal action taken against Thompson for this(as well as his 'friends'). As long as Thompson 'believed' he was acting in the best interests of the public, the reality of what he did takes a back seat, at least in a courtroom.

He didn't just 'plant a seed', he gave you flat out how this will be playing out in court if it does indeed go that direction. Pay attention to this, because it will be the primary defense if Thompson ever finds himself on the wrong end of a civil suit.

Now, the threats of covert (and overt)violence being made by some of these supporters... those people are on their own, without a paddle, if law enforcement comes a knockin'.

By The Invisible Man (not verified) on 02 Sep 2014 #permalink

This is a very entertaining site. I especially like the oxymoronic title Respectful Insolence which is so cute in a nerdy sort of way.

Then there's the cheerful arrogance of DR ORC, the boob-job doctor (ai gevult -- does he do nose jobs too?) and His Merry Band of Pro-Vaxers. It's not a cult. It's just another support group.

However I do have some suggestions on how to make a couple extra shekels for the good doctor. Why not get ads from Merck et al promoting the latest voodoo science experiments on children a/k/a vaccines?

Remember children really "need" 49 doses of 14 vaccines by the age of 6 (2012).

And the explosion of cases of autism since this increased regimen was foisted on the American population?

Never mind the statistics...

Or as George Bush would say -- "See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in -- to kind of catapult the propaganda ".

Wow. Jus read the mothering comments. They couldn't go more than 5 without a link to bolen's turd of a site. Wow.

Bob-Orac doesn't perform breast augmentations. At least try to keep your insults correct lest you make yourself look even sillier.

Indeed. Breast augmentations are performed by plastic surgeons. I only operate on cancer or suspected cancer.

Now, in fairness, it's true that in some countries (not the US) breast surgeons do their own reconstructions after mastectomies, but that's not the same thing as breast augmentations. I"m sure, however, that BOB is completely unaware of such nuances.

From reading his comments, I suspect BOB is unaware of the nuance "socks first THEN shoes".

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 02 Sep 2014 #permalink

The increase in the reported autism rate since 2012 is obviously due to the introduction of 4G by mobile phone networks.

Why does BOB not want to address that correlation?

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 02 Sep 2014 #permalink

Scientists like Wakefield, Hooker, and Mikovits would NEVER dream of concealing data.

I don't know about Mikovits but Wakefield and Hooker don't have to conceal it; by the time they're done with the data, it's unrecognizable.

Orac @55: Yikes. I find the "see Dorit" part of that especially alarming, since we have (had?) a regular here who posts under that handle. Is this twit referring to that Dorit, and if so is she alright?

Either way, I would expect that using Twitter to make threats would be a TOS violation, and should be reported to them, even if you don't think it rises yet to the level where you want the FBI involved.

By Eric Lund (not verified) on 02 Sep 2014 #permalink

Jeebus Orac, he needs all day to find out where you work, call and say mean things?

Kidding aside, these bozos need to meet law enforcement.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 02 Sep 2014 #permalink

All-Caps-BOB wrote:

Never mind the statistics…

I think I have an old punk album with that title somewhere....

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 02 Sep 2014 #permalink

And speaking of statistics, another AoA contributor Martin Hewitt tries to explain statistics to his readers and expectedly fails. Oh and others are trying to figure out what they can sue [insert agency name here] for since they say Thompson "admitted fraud". Tim Bolen asks for Kent Heckenlively's legal advice on that front.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 02 Sep 2014 #permalink

Vaccidemic Dot Org is a charmer isn't s/he? A brief browse of his/her timeline and clicking on some links reveals the whole antivaccine movement seems to be in a frenzy of vindication and self-congratulation, "I always said vaccine were dangerous/the CDC are liars/drug companies are trying to kill our children", or whatever, with some gross misinterpretations of the Hooker-Thompson kerfuffle, as well as the usual anti-vaccine disinformation. So many lies it is impossible to deal with them all. Sadly most of these people will only realize they have been lied to when children start dying. It's a bit depressing, really.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 02 Sep 2014 #permalink

That's why I'm pretty sure that nearly everyone who isn't a crank who looks at anything Vaccidemic Dot Org does will recognize this guy as a crank par excellence. But it never hurts to give people a heads-up.

That’s why I’m pretty sure that nearly everyone who isn’t a crank who looks at anything Vaccidemic Dot Org does will recognize this guy as a crank par excellence.

I just noticed s/he has 155 followers. Scary.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 02 Sep 2014 #permalink

kruuth:

Bob-Orac doesn’t perform breast augmentations. At least try to keep your insults correct lest you make yourself look even sillier.

Given he/she can't manage to spell a four-letter name correctly ("DR ORC", really?), this may be beyond his/her capacity.

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 02 Sep 2014 #permalink

Okay, bob--I'll admit I'm curious.

What evidence do you beleive I'm ignoring, which establishes factually that "vaccines are part of a strategic global depopulation campaign and do nothing but cripple its victims with autism, tics and other horrific disabilities"?

Be specific. Citations to articles in first or second-tier peer-reviewed scientific journals would serve best.

155 followers? man, that's an investment of a lot of socks...

I love the veiled anti-Semitism in BOB's comment. Typical. Scratch a conspiracy theorist and you'll find an anti-Semite.

By NH Primary Car… (not verified) on 02 Sep 2014 #permalink

Or as George Bush would say — “See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in — to kind of catapult the propaganda “.

Every once in a while, Bush managed to accidentally tell the truth, and this statement is one of those examples. It's revealing that BOB brings this quote up, because it's also an accurate description of what his anti-vax heroes do: catapult the propaganda regarding the talking point du jour, regardless of how long ago that talking point was debunked. There's a reason they trot out these zombie hypotheses: they don't have anything better to support their claims.

By Eric Lund (not verified) on 02 Sep 2014 #permalink

@bob - 'vaccines are part of a strategic global depopulation campaign'

Hey bob,

Wouldn't it be much easier to accomplish this supposed goal of yours by simply withholding vaccinations from the public? Seems to me that viruses were doing a perfectly adequate job of global population control on their own without the help of science. Why don't you point us towards some numbers proving how effective population control via vaccine has been.

By Jamie Gegerson (not verified) on 02 Sep 2014 #permalink

I was going to write something to the effect that Orac was being too kind in saying "the antivaccine movement is very much like a cult." But then I realized proximity goes in more than one direction. The proposition "the antivaccine movement is a cult" is unfair to at least the vast majority of cults.

IMHO, those Tweets from Marsha McLelland are Beyond cult. I was going to ask if there's any chance 'Marsha McLelland' is a Sub-Genius/Flying-Spaghetti/Landover-Baptist type parody: the 'M of mars' handle, the fact Rob Schneider is tagged, the stolen-from-Stephen-Colbert iconography of eagle and flag, the rogue's gallery of phrases 'You have been named. The ax is coming. Heads will roll. Time to pay...' But the additional Tweets from MM posted by Dr. Gorski on the SBM site look 'genuine' to me.

But for the sake of argument, let's say Martian Marsha IS intended as satire. Let's say some smart-ass then posts something to the effect of "Haha, Dr. Gorski! You can't tell a joke from the real thing!" Dr. Gorski then gets to pull out a plethora of undoubtedly real threats that are worse than anything posted by 'McLelland."

Honestly, I don't know Denice can handle monitoring AoA and the other anti-vax toilets. I spent about five minutes looking at AoA after first stumbling onto RI a few years ago. That was more than I could take. I think it took me a week to recover from the ugliness and insanity. But I guess I'm glad somebody has the stomach for it.

I'd actually like to see the pro-vax folks do more to spotlight the batshit crazy in the anti-vax base. These folks do a pretty good job of putting on a public face of 'rational argument' 'scientific justification' 'proper paternal caution' etc. etc. I'd guess the fence-sitters haven't peeled back the onion enough to see the uber-cultism and blind hate at the core. I'd like to think that seeing that would scare the bejeebers out of them and lead them toward a proper skepticism (if not Skepticism).

@Calli Arcade:

"Given he/she can’t manage to spell a four-letter name correctly (“DR ORC”, really?), "

In case your not funning: 'Dr. Orc' is now pretty common anti-vax smack, likening Orac to Sauron's mindless minions. I'm no fan of Tolkein's ideology m'self, but I think that's a lousy reading of LOTR.

BTW: I thought your comment on the political economy of vaccine production (#409 in previous thread) was brilliant and added a much-needed perspective to the discussion.

Jamie: I'd be more interested in "Bob's" take on what the purpose of this strategic global depopulation campaign is? Killing off customers (or taxpayers) isn't a great business model.

re twits

I just learned that twitter's to be a-buzz in a few hours with a twit storm with the hearthisnow whatever meme ( see my # 47 above) because they didn't like a particular news person, Elizabeth Cohen
( by way of Alison MacNeil @nicksmummie and Lisa Goes @thinkingmomsrev).

These women have WAY too much time on their hands.. Don't they have children to tend and entertain?
I don't and I have no time for these party games.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 02 Sep 2014 #permalink

Two points: First of all, I'm not that BOB who is writing all those ridiculous things. You probably didn't think so either, those of you who even recognize my name, but I wanted to make it clear.

Second: Back in the Watergate days, one of the Alsop brothers (both were columnists) wrote a story suggesting a visit from an unnamed stranger, who suggested that there really was a national security reason for the Watergate burglary. It didn't really pass the sniff test at the time, but there it was in print in daily newspapers. I think it was later confirmed that this was, in fact, a gambit by the Nixon staff who were trying to cool down a rapidly igniting scandal. The column didn't reflect well on the guy who wrote it.

In this case, Orac names the source and properly provides reasonable skepticism. What's missing from the lawyer's account is anything suggesting that Thompson had followed the literature during the intervening years, which should have alleviated his guilt quite a bit. After all, later studies and meta-analyses involving millions of children don't reveal an association between mmr and autism, as our host has explained so thoroughly.

I think it was honorable to present this other supposed explanation, and is in keeping with this blog's policy of openness. Thank you for that. It may very well be that this is essentially a legal gambit, as Invisible Man @50 suggests. I guess I don't quite see how Thompson is going to get sued, but I can see how he might get demoted or fired, and that would explain a lot of the whistle blower and paralyzing guilt stories. The other likely intent was to try to get Orac to take some of the heat off of Thompson. Barn door, horse.

DW: I like your explanation of the anti-vaccine groups as essentially group therapy that is in error.

Eric Lund at #58: actually visited with Dorit in real life today; she is fine and I for one am happy she is back in California. The trolling nonsense is a little obnoxious but does not intrude on happiness.

Text Message Confirms #CDCwhistleblower Apology to Wakefield for CDC MMR Cover Up

http://www.ageofautism.com/2014/09/text-message-confirms-cdcwhistleblow…

Age of Autism has confirmed the veracity of this text message from #CDCwhistleblower Dr. William Thompson to Dr. Andrew J. Wakefield.

AJW: "Is the press release real?"

WT: "Yes"

AJW: Thank you. This was the right and honorable thing to do. Andy.

WT: I agree. I apologize again for ther price you paid for my dishonesty.

AJW: I forgive you complete and without any bitterness.

WT: I know you mean it and am grateful to know you more personally.

Oh boy. That's for sure a real conversation.

Bob G,

Back in the Watergate days, one of the Alsop brothers (both were columnists) wrote a story suggesting a visit from an unnamed stranger, who suggested that there really was a national security reason for the Watergate burglary. It didn’t really pass the sniff test at the time, but there it was in print in daily newspapers.

I just had a horrible vision of 20 years in the future, with Andy Wakefield and Brian Deer (or Hooker and Thompson) on tour with a stage show a bit like Tim Leary and G Gordon Liddy....

For those who don't know, G Gordon Liddy was one of the Watergate burglars who later was sent to spy on Timothy Leary in the hope of finding him doing something illegal (this was before LSD research was outlawed).

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 02 Sep 2014 #permalink

They had children to tend, etc., but the ebil vaccines took them away...

sadmar -- yes, I was funning. ;-) I'm sure they think they are very clever, but it's really just rather sad.

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 02 Sep 2014 #permalink

Gentlemen:

I thank you for your kind words: they made my day. After working early, I had errands- in and out of the car several times- which became bothersome because we're currently experiencing high humidity which aggravates my sinus condtition and transforms my hair into a wimpy, pathetically Anglo version of dreadlocks. Youngsters in bands envy me.

Despite the horrors I survey, I remain unscathed by the madness, the ineptitude, the braggadocio and the wholesale slaughter of the English language. The anti-vaxxers are only a part of my purview as I also review alt media woo-meisters. I believe that my business-oriented ancestors passed down their tolerance genetically to me.

I believe that along with our analysis of how anti-vaxxers/ woo-meisters operate we need to point out the ludicrous balderdash which they present as 'education' and 'information'. Of course, there is always a poignant note in recounting their nonsense because people can get hurt by following their 'sagacious' advice. So we can't laugh too hard, despite the risibility of their antics.

Whilst I call the anti-vax girls' club/ twittering nest of hornets
"group therapy gone bad' I might remind you that people with psychological issues often gravitate to web woo-meisters and become amongst their most ardent followers which is just as maladpative as the former group's reliance upon advisors who may have even more serious issues than they do themselves.

As Orac tells us, sceptics have to endure threats and insults: it's no surprise to me because through my surveillance i hear and read so much hatred. SBM physicians are portrayed as greedy monsters; researchers are nearly organised crime and governmental employees are fascisti, if not worse.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 02 Sep 2014 #permalink

For those who don’t know, G Gordon Liddy was one of the Watergate burglars who later was sent to spy on Timothy Leary in the hope of finding him doing something illegal (this was before LSD research was outlawed).

The Millbrook raids occurred before the Watergate break-in.

@herr doktor bimler

The chemtrails must have numbed our senses in some way.

That would be the barium, strontium, and aluminum...

Don’t they have children to tend and entertain?

A thought occurs: Do any of these so-called Thinking Moms have older children in addition to their autistic offspring? And if so, do these older siblings wonder why Mommy has taken to spending so much time at the computer with an adult beverage handy? Do they blame it on the strange younger sibling, or are they wondering if they themselves are to blame?

I have heard that many young children of divorcing parents blame themselves for the divorce, even though they are not at fault. (Fortunately, I do not have firsthand knowledge of this phenomenon.) All they know is that Mommy and/or Daddy have changed, and don't love each other anymore. So why wouldn't an older child of one of those mothers on the vaccines-cause-autism bandwagon wonder what's wrong with Mommy?

By Eric Lund (not verified) on 03 Sep 2014 #permalink

@ Eric Lund;

A few of the TMs write about ALL of their children: I won't be specific about which because we are talking about REAL children and they shouldn't be objects of analysis even if their mothers are exceedingly wack.

A TM refers to her NT oldest daughter as a 'thinker'- that is, an acolyte within the mystery religion to which they surrender. One even has her adolescent daughter write a post for TMR. Another writes about how her daughter helps her with daily chores around the house or with the autisitc child's needs. One uses a slightly younger son ( who may or not have an ASD) as an assistant to manage the child with the more severe condition: this TM has 5 children in her care. There are many stories which lead me to believe that the other chldren are indeed getting the short end of the stick.

I don't approve of how the TMs ( and others at various sinkholes of anti-vax contamination) write detailed posts- and BOOKs- in which their children's disabilities or daily lives' private moments are showcased and displayed to the world.. Children- NT or not- may eventually view these internet revelations concerning their lives. There are videos posted and children's names plastered around the 'net- even sometimes as part of a parent's 'nym or handle, e.g. williesdaddy or @petersmum.

As I mentioned previously I do actually feel sorry for these women and their travails - although less so when they make a career of it, earning money or accolades from the woo-entranced. They spend their time writing up a storm and avoiding the real issues: seeing their children as valuable just as they are and finding something to do with their own lives.

I've read comments in which Orac, BD and our merry band of sceptics are described as 'childless' thus unable to understand their frenzied activities as if none of us- with children or without- ever had a family member who was ill, disabled or in great need of assistance beyond our own abilities to assist them.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 03 Sep 2014 #permalink

In the words of CDC Senior Scientist and Autism Epidemiologist, William W. Thompson, PhD. “I regret that my coauthors and I omitted statistically significant information in our 2004 article published in the journal Pediatrics. The omitted data suggested that African-American males who received the MMR vaccine before age 36 months were at increased risk for autism. Decisions were made regarding which findings to report after the data were collected, and I believe that the final study protocol was not followed..."

CDC Autism Researcher Informs Congress of Scientific Fraud in 2004 Medical Journal Publication

http://katysexposure.wordpress.com/2014/09/02/cdc-autism-researcher-inf…

As a result of lack of U.S. government oversight either confirming or alleviating the parents’ concerns; parents of U.S. children are caught in the quandary of fearing increased risk for the safety of their own children should they adhere to the questionable CDC vaccination recommendations; or of facing the hardship of no public education for their children and societal accusations of being at fault for the spread of disease via their non-vaccinated offspring.

Vaccine defenders sometimes refer to the distraught parents and their scientific/medical proponents as “hilarious” science denialists.[16] [17] [18] [19] [20] Any parent struggling with the decision to vaccinate their child or not; knows there is nothing even remotely “hilarious” about the vaccine-autism debate and the mixed information fueling it.

When scientifically flawed medical journal publications, like the 2004 Pediatrics/CDC MMR/Autism study, are authored by government employees; and private sector “non-profit” physician organizations are involved with federal leaders in propagating the skewed data — public trust may be irreparably shattered until those responsible for flawed public health policy are held accountable.[23]

Regardless of who is right or who is wrong as to the need and safety of vaccinating America’s children for the greater good; all agree that impeccable ethics when establishing public health policies is of the utmost importance to protect us all.

Given all of the above, Congressional investigations of the CDC’s and their private-sector medical partners’ methodologies, ethics, and risk analyses when establishing public health policies, logically seems more than warranted. To this author, prompt Congressional investigations of Dr. Thompson’s claims seem imperative for the future health and safety of the United States and it’s people’s future confidence in the integrity of the CDC.

By Sharon Kramer (not verified) on 03 Sep 2014 #permalink

Any parent struggling with the decision to vaccinate their child or not; knows there is nothing even remotely “hilarious” about the vaccine-autism debate and the mixed information fueling it.

I agree: the misinformation propagated by anti-vaccine advocates and found on websites like AoA, Thinking Moms, etc., has led to reduced vaccine uptake, which has compromised herd immunity and resulted in serious outbreaks of infectious diseases like measles and rubella, both in the US and abroad, which has resulted in illness, injuries and deaths.

There's nothing funny about that, or the harm anti-vax advocates do.

parents of U.S. children are caught in the quandary of fearing increased risk for the safety of their own children should they adhere to the questionable CDC vaccination recommendations

By what rational argument could the CDC's vaccination recommendations be characterized as 'questionable'--wWhat evidence suggests that vaccinating according to the CDC's recommended childhood vaccine schedule engenders greater risk than remaining vulnerable to the infectious diseases those vaccines protect against?

Regardless of who is right or who is wrong as to the need and safety of vaccinating America’s children for the greater good; all agree that impeccable ethics when establishing public health policies is of the utmost importance to protect us all.

You say this af it there were some question regarding who is right and who is wrong on the issue of vaccine safety and the possibility of a causal association between vaccines and autism spectrum disorders--there isn't. All available evidence argues solely in support of the overall safety and efficacy of routine childhood vaccination programs.

@Sharon

Your post is a bit disengenious... Copypasta snippets from the article you link to, as evidenced by the included footnotes. Not really a comment, more of a spam.

Orac: I think you're probably being far too charitable here. I bet Dr. Thompson jumped ship in order to make a ton of money.

Sharon Kramer: facing the hardship of no public education for their children and societal accusations of being at fault for the spread of disease via their non-vaccinated offspring.

I'm glad the overworked, underpaid, and generally unappreciated public school teachers don't have to deal with the venomous, narcisstic and overbearing parents who make up anti-vax movements. As for what society thinks of them- these parents simply don't care, and realistically, I doubt they'd care if one of their kids contracted measles, mumps or any of the other diseases and died. If they were disabled from the diseases, the parents would dump them out of the house.
Their kids are nothing but convenient flags to wave at the world and hide behind. I've yet to see any evidence that these parents care for their offspring- even the NT ones. So please don't pretend the parents have any human empathy. We know better.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 03 Sep 2014 #permalink

@ PGP:

Although I haven't any figures, I know that several of the TMs and AoA crusaders and other anti-vaxxers, make use of US public school services despite their carping about their government's corruption. They take what they can get.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 03 Sep 2014 #permalink

DW: Geez, the Thinking Mums have hypocrisy down to a fine art. I feel sorry for their kids- and the teachers.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 03 Sep 2014 #permalink

Narad,

The Millbrook raids occurred before the Watergate break-in.

I realized that about a millisecond after hitting submit, but since it doesn't affect the weirdness of the subsequent Leary/Liddy collaboration, I didn't bother to correct it. I figured the only person who would notice would be you ;-)

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 03 Sep 2014 #permalink

I am curious to know what people here think Dr. Thompson is suggesting when he states " I believe that the final study protocol was not followed." Any thoughts would be appreciated.

By Cipriano Mondragon (not verified) on 03 Sep 2014 #permalink

Cipriano Mondragon,

I am curious to know what people here think Dr. Thompson is suggesting when he states ” I believe that the final study protocol was not followed.” Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I don't know what he is suggesting, but from what I have seen of Thompson's words, which are heavily edited and may be out of context, I think he has a hard time understanding statistics. Apparently he doesn't see that correcting for confounders in the DeStefano study is good science, and thinks that the uncorrected figures should have been published, even though they would certainly have misled many people into believing that African American males children are at risk from MMR, which they are not. He also seems to think that a single statistically significant result associating thimerosal with tics is clinically significant, when the results are consistent with the result being due to chance.

I may be wrong, and I hope that Thompson, and all the players have a chance to explain themselves fully, and for the entire truth to become clear to everyone. When it does I am confident that the CDC, and vaccines, will be exonerated.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 03 Sep 2014 #permalink

Snopes, appears to be in the pocket of pharma also.

Snopes, is using science blogs, to use for for valid info.

Snopes, and science blogs, will be eating humble pie.

By Joe Harris (not verified) on 03 Sep 2014 #permalink

re harshness for the SB

@ AoA ( 'SafeMinds Calls for....' thread)

a commenter believes that the truth will out and then

" the Brian Deers, Paul Offit, that scum at the CDC, NIH and 'science' blogs all get what they deserve".

I hope so.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 03 Sep 2014 #permalink

Let's revisit a CDC event stealthily held just outside of Atlanta in Gwinnett County at a RELIGIOUS (Methodist) retreat center in 2000:

What I want to know is if the “ideal” scientific study to track Thimerosal effect in vaccines, as described below by Dr. Rhodes, WAS ACTUALLY IMPLEMENTED, using the African-American Atlanta cohort fraudulently deleted from the 2004 paper by Thompson and DeStephano. NOTE: DeStephano was a presenter at this meeting. Dr. Orenstein, WHO IMPLEMENTED THE NEW VACCINE SCHEDULE, was at this meeting as well. The 2004 study data was from 1986-2003. Was this pre-planned? The African American babies selected to receive the HIGH dose? The dosage, manufacturer, and clinic location ARE tracked. Specific vaccine lots could be strategically placed. PLEASE CHECK THIS CO-HORT. Dr. Hooker was given the original statistics.

http://skeptico.blogs.com/Simpsonwood_Transcript.pdf

Scientific Review of Vaccine Safety Datalink Information June 7-8, 2000
Simpsonwood Retreat Center
Norcross, Georgia

Philip Rhodes, a Statistician in the National Immunization Program.

Dr. Rhodes

“What would one want? One would want somehow within a situation where there is comparable ascertainment, you would like kids who got very low level, 0 to 25, whatever micrograms of Thimerosal, versus those that got 75 or 100, but to have the same number of vaccinations. That they are equally vaccinated, but because of policy differences or manufacturer differences, have big difference in Thimerosal usage• But also in which you have equal ascertainment, and that may be rough. Getting both of those at the same time may be very, very difficult.”

Brian Deer got part of what he deserves already - Wakefield paid Deer's legal expenses when Wakefield dropped his bogus case against Deer. How much more of Wakefield's money does AOA think Deer deserves?

This statement was made by Dr. Orenstein in 2001 Before the Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions
United States Senate, after the Thimerosal/Simpsonwood meeting in 2000.

"The Vaccine Safety Challenge
Immunizations are subject to a higher standard of safety than other medical interventions because they are given to healthy people. Like all medical interventions, no vaccine is 100 percent safe or effective. Vaccine safety activities are needed to maintain public confidence in immunizations, preserve high coverage levels, and prevent a resurgence of vaccine-preventable diseases. The tremendous reduction in the occurrence of vaccine-preventable diseases, combined with the increased public attention on vaccine safety concerns, has resulted in some individuals questioning the important public health role of immunizations. To maintain confidence in immunizations, we must have a better understanding of which risks are truly attributable to vaccines, the magnitude of the risks, the groups at greatest risk of adverse events, the pathophysiology of adverse events, and the ability to effectively evaluate and treat adverse events. CDC has developed several projects to help address these needs. One project is a newly-funded Clinical Immunization Safety Assessment (CISA) network to assess individuals with selected adverse events and offer recommendations for management. CDC also funds a Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) project which collects population-based data on vaccine safety by utilizing medical care data from 8 managed care organizations around the United States. This system helps in determining whether adverse events following vaccination are causally related or are coincidentally related. Finally, CDC and NIH have contracted with the Institute of Medicine to provide independent review of emerging information concerning adverse events associated with vaccines. These reviews will address whether the available evidence supports a role for vaccine in causing the adverse event and recommendations for future research and public health actions."

Oddly, the CDC/NIH are considered INDEPENDENT review for vaccine safety for the INSTITUTE OF MEDICINE. The now infamous Thompson 2004 FRAUD document was produced for this group!

"One project is a newly-funded Clinical Immunization Safety Assessment (CISA) network to assess individuals with selected adverse events.." An easy way to get a cohort.

"Since 1983, CDC has been operating stockpiles of certain vaccines. These stockpiles are used to address short-term disruptions in the production of universally recommended vaccines.

“There have been a number of instances when stockpiles were needed. Most withdrawals from the stockpiles have been made by manufacturers to address unanticipated vaccine production problems. For example, in 1986, the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) stockpile was used to assure a continuous supply of vaccine after a fire in a manufacturing plant.”

MY COMMENT: This MMR stockpile would have had Thimerosal (to extend shelf life) Was this stockpile sent to ATLANTA? Remember, the data set used for the fraudulent 2004 Thompson paper used data from 1986 - 2003. There is tracking from stockpile to clinic. Remember, they had to get a 70 - 100 microgram to one cohort. MMR was originally given separately, got the mercury level up quite a bit. Remember, Orenstein called the Simpsonwood meeting.

http://www.hhs.gov/asl/testify/t011127.html

Twitter screen shot

Oh, honey...that's #adorable.

MY COMMENT: This MMR stockpile would have had Thimerosal (to extend shelf life) Was this stockpile sent to ATLANTA? Remember, the data set used for the fraudulent 2004 Thompson paper used data from 1986 – 2003. There is tracking from stockpile to clinic. Remember, they had to get a 70 – 100 microgram to one cohort. MMR was originally given separately, got the mercury level up quite a bit. Remember, Orenstein called the Simpsonwood meeting.

I don't have time right now for the rest of the bollocks but this was a hoot. Toto darling, MMR is a live viral vaccine, it has never ever ever contained thiomersal. The single jabs are also live, viral vaccines and have never ever ever contained thiomersal (excepting perhaps a killed measles virus vaccine used briefly 50 years ago) . All that work kaput in a paragraph.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 03 Sep 2014 #permalink

Oh and those children would have received MMR thiomersal-free, not the single jabs, thiomersal-free.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 03 Sep 2014 #permalink

Toto: "MY COMMENT: This MMR stockpile would have had Thimerosal (to extend shelf life) Was this stockpile sent to ATLANTA?"

Dear Toto,

Were you born stupid, or did you have to work hard to get to that level of idiocy? Because one of the basics of "how to tell someone is an idiot" is when they post about thimersal being in the MMR.

By the way, the MMR vaccine has been around since 1971. Give us the data that it caused autism two decades before Wakefield, and you might have something. Until then, you look like a fool.

Correction: "thimersal" should be "thimerosal"

I dropped one letter. So sue me. No spelling of it is correct on Firefox Mozilla.

I'm sorry, but I find Dachel's whining that the Heap Big Chief Nіggras are failing to hoe their assigned rows utterly hilarious.

Paging Media Editor: Try The Final Call.

Heh. It gets better. Check out the 2014 June 6 statement of organization; only the first page is necessary. Revolutionpac-dot-com is (now) a redirect to constitutionalrightspac-dot-com. I wonder whether it's time to...

... visit the Wayback Machine, since I can't find Franchi's name anywhere on the new one. Yup, 9/11 twoofing. L-rd only knows what the "under new management" bit is about, other than that it seems to coincide with the end of Franchi's involvement. And finally fulfilling the orders for the Ron Paul action figures.

Hey, wait a second... at least the Southern Poverty Law Center has heard of him.

Yes, this is the Great White (Album) Hope.

Thanks for the rabbit hole I've fallen into Narad...cha. :D

By Science Mom (not verified) on 04 Sep 2014 #permalink

I clicked on Narad's link to Dachel's recent AoA screed, and found:

Thompson also says the CDC knew about this link, and purposely manipulated the evidence to remove "Black Babies without birth certificates" from the study.

I suppose I should be aware by now that AoA don't even pretend to keep their facts straight, but how would this even be possible if the only way of knowing a child's ethnic origin was from the birth certificate? They didn't remove them from the study anyway, but used to birth certificate data to correct for confounders. If they had ignored known confounders, that would be poor science.

The initial report showed a 340 percent increase in autism among black boys under 36 months old.

That mistaken 340% increase (which speaks volumes of Wakefield's knowledge of statistics) will always be with us, won't it, just like Simpsonwood.

BTW I laughed out loud at Toto's description of it as "a RELIGIOUS (Methodist) retreat center". Like the people who run conference centers get to decide anything that is discussed there. Someone certainly isn't in Kansas any more.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 04 Sep 2014 #permalink

@Kreb - they do like to keep repeating the same lies over and over again....340% is wrong (even some folks at AoA pointed that out), Hooker even stated "risk of," which again, is ignored.

AoA can't even keep their own stories straight on Science that supposedly supports them....such idiots over there.

DR. THOMPSON APOLOGIZES TO DR. WAKEFIELD ON TWITTER. Says paper, if published with TRUE findings, would have supported his theory.

http://www.robertscottbell.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Dr-Wake-txt1…
Twitter screen shot

That ain't Twitter, chudev. You seem to have made up that idea yourself. The alleged apology conversation is alleged to have occurred by text messages, not Twitter. And the screenshot you show is clearly the interface for text messaging, not for Twitter.

You may ask, "text messages, Twitter, what's the difference!" I'm so glad you asked!

The difference is that tweets are public. They go out to everyone. There is an (imperfect) record of them, so that if anyone later wants to know "Did so-and-so actually say that??" they can actually go and see for themselves. People can delete their own tweets or even their account, which is why the record is imperfect, but some form of verification is at least possible.

Text messages, by contrast, are privately sent and privately received. Which means that if someone SAYS "Oh, so-and-so apologized to me by text messages and told me I was right" there is NO WAY any third party without a court order can verify whether that exchange actually occurred.

Which means that if the person who reported receiving those text messages has been shown by one of the longest and most expensive GMC proceedings of all time to have acted with utter dishonesty, lying time and time again, we have NO REASON to believe that those text messages ever existed.

Seriously. You're obviously quite gullible on this subject, Toto, but surely even you can see that "it must be true, because Andrew Wakefield says it happened, even though no one else can verify that it happened" is like saying "it must be a sound financial investment, since it's recommended by Bernie Madoff". Right? You have at least that much ability to think for yourself, right?

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 04 Sep 2014 #permalink

You are correct. It was a text to Wakefield, not Twitter. I don't use either, so I typed Twitter by default. Yes, it would have to be verified.
It is.
Neither Thompson, nor Wakefield have denied it.

The MMR vaccine in the stockpile was put there BEFORE 1986. Because it was purchased specifically to stockpile, we don't know what form it was in. How long can a live virus be stored?
We really don't know WHAT was in the vaccine(s) labeled MMR in the stockpile. IT HAS NO INDEPENDENT OVERSIGHT.

"This is the accessible text file for GAO report number GAO-02-987
entitled 'Childhood Vaccines: Ensuring an Adequate Supply Poses
Continuing Challenges' which was released on September 13, 2002"
http://www.gao.gov/assets/240/235553.html

The United States Pediatric Vaccine Stockpile Program
http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/42/Supplement_3/S125.full.pdf
"At the time that the first stockpiles were created in 1983, the childhood immunization schedule was much less complicated than it is today, and the first stockpiles were to include only measles-mumps-rubella, poliovirus, and pertussis vaccines, and diphtheria and tetanus toxoids for children. The first delivery of vaccine to the national stockpile took place on 27 December 1983 and included 596,000 doses of measles-mumps-rubella vaccine. By the beginning of 1988, stockpiles of 5 of the 6 recommended vaccines had been established, and the size of most of the stockpiles was close to reaching the targeted number of doses needed for a 6-month supply."

Here is the article about the 1986 fire at Merck. Rather curious:

"1-million Fire Hits Merck Plant 140 Workers Evacuated, 3 Firemen Hurt In Blaze Caused By Welder
September 23, 1986|by CHUCK AYERS And DAN FRICKER, The Morning Call
A workman making repairs with a welding torch accidentally ignited a fire that caused more than $1-million damage yesterday to a building at the Merck Sharp & Dohme pharmaceutical plant in Upper Gwynedd Township. Three firefighters were injured."
The fire started about 11 a.m., when a company workman accidentally ignited insulation in the sterile operations building, according to Roy Walker, manager of press relations for Merck. The fire fed on insulation and refrigeration oil before spreading throughout the building in the company complex in the township's West Point section, Messa said."

"The fire spread before automatic fire control equipment could contain it," Walker said. "It spread so rapidly the existing fire equipment did not activate in time."

"Because they were unable to enter the building, Walker said, no determination could be made specifically what products may had been consumed by the fire, but he noted that regardless of what chemical solutions may have been involved, no health threat was posed by their combustion."

"Walker said vaccines for measles, mumps, rubella and pneumonia, an ophthalmic solution for treatment primarily of glaucoma and possibly a hepatitis vaccine were in production when the fire occurred."
"Most of the vaccines do not contain active viruses, he said, and he noted the products were all kept in sealed rooms."

http://articles.mcall.com/1986-09-23/news/2533130_1_fire-spread-hospita…

NOTE: MMR Vaccines from the stockpile would have had a date PRIOR TO September 22, 1986.

According to Merck, the vaccine is available separately:
"Therefore, prior to international travel, individuals known to be susceptible to one or more of these diseases can either receive the indicated monovalent vaccine (measles, mumps, or rubella), or a combination vaccine as appropriate. However, M-M-R II is preferred for persons likely to be susceptible to mumps and rubella; and if monovalent measles vaccine is not readily available, travelers should receive M-M-R II regardless of their immune status to mumps or rubella.{34-36}"
http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr_ii/mmr_ii_pi.pdf

Merck's top vaccine scientist and inventor of their mumps vaccine (used in the MMR) warned IN A 1991 MEMO of the dangers of the cumulative dose of Thimerosal in the new vaccine schedule (implemented in 1986 by the CDC's Dr. Orenstein) :

"'91 Memo Warned of Mercury in Shots
February 08, 2005|Myron Levin | Times Staff Writer

"A memo from Merck & Co. shows that, nearly a decade before the first public disclosure, senior executives were concerned that infants were getting an elevated dose of mercury in vaccinations containing a widely used sterilizing agent.

The March 1991 memo, obtained by The Times, said that 6-month-old children who received their shots on schedule would get a mercury dose up to 87 times higher than guidelines for the maximum daily consumption of mercury from fish.

"When viewed in this way, the mercury load appears rather large," said the memo from Dr. Maurice R. Hilleman, an internationally renowned vaccinologist. It was written to the president of Merck's vaccine division.

The memo was prepared at a time when U.S. health authorities were aggressively expanding their immunization schedule by adding five new shots for children in their first six months. Many of these shots, as well as some previously included on the vaccine schedule, contained thimerosal, an antibacterial compound that is nearly 50% ethyl mercury, a neurotoxin."
http://articles.latimes.com/2005/feb/08/business/fi-vaccine8

Toto...what part of "MMR is a live vaccine and thimerosal is a preservative" do you NOT get?

The original Polio vaccine was given orally (OPV). Later they developed a dead injectable version (IPV). How do we know a dead version of the MMR was not specifically developed for the stockpile version? It would certainly be more cost effective if it had a longer shelf life. How do we know what is in ANY of the vaccines in the stockpile? Do we have an OUTSIDE entity that does RANDOM checks on the vaccine contents? The FDA doesn't count. What was the shelf life for the MMR vaccine back in 1983? Were the vaccines stored individually or all together? How would you know? Who oversees the disposal of outdated vaccines from the stockpile? Where is the list that would tell us this information? Who is in charge of it?
Shay, you seem to be an expert. Please share this info with us. After all, it is the taxpayers who bear the liability for vaccine injury. It is the individual parent who must give INFORMED CONSENT to have their baby vaccinated. If parents have no assurance of what is in the individual vaccine that OUR child receives, how much Thimerosal it contains, how can we give it? "Trust me", is that what we are to go by? Remember, I have read the Simpsonwood document in its entirety. I have personally attended a RELIGIOUS retreat at Simpsonwood. It is not a commercial conference center.

How do we know that Toto did not poison the MMR supply? How do we know that Toto didn't steal the supply of polio vaccine and replace it with milk sugar? How do we know that there even is such a thing as an MMR vaccine, and that it isn't a figment of Wakefield's imagination?

Absurd questions, but no more absurd than Toto's "how do we know that XYZ fantasy didn't happen, and by the way, ignore the people whose job it is to keep our food and drugs safe."

Vicki,

I figured it all out. The Illuminati and Homeland Security load up the storage tanks of all those chemtrail planes with mercury, aluminum, monkey pus, aborted baby cells and ground-up Snickers bars. All the stuff that causes little babies to react immediately after getting it injected "directly into their bloodstreams."

These planes then spray their payload over doctors' offices, clinics, pharmacies and anywhere else vaccines are administered to poison the vaccine supply in order to depopulate the planet under orders from Bill Gates.

Oh yeah, the Jews. Obamacare. And 9/11 too.

(Mike Adams actualy invoked his 9/11 conspiracy theories again today in a post about cell towers across the U.S. being erected to intercept content from phone calls and texts...)

By Woo Fighter (not verified) on 04 Sep 2014 #permalink

Oh, and Thompson is really a false flag stooge who is being played by Black Ops to "admit" to the CDC cover-up in order to distract the sheeple from the true source of vaccine contamination, the gub'mint. Big Pharma really has nothing to do with it this time. They're also part of the innocent victims of the false flag distraction tactic. The CDC is under direct control of MK Ultra.

By Woo Fighter (not verified) on 04 Sep 2014 #permalink

@Vicki
I asked specific questions. Can you answer these?
* Do we have an OUTSIDE entity that does RANDOM checks on the vaccine contents? (in the stockpile)

*What was the shelf life for the MMR vaccine back in 1983?

*Who oversees the disposal of outdated vaccines from the stockpile?

*Where is the list that would tell us this information? Who is in charge of it?

Here is a new question, just for you:
What is the TOTAL Thimerosal content (in micrograms) for the following vaccines, if all given on the same day (i.e. a typical single dose) in the year 1997:
MMR, DTP, OPV, HbPV

This is not a trick question. I sincerely want to know. Surely with all the science/vaccine experts posting here, I can get a timely answer.

Here is a new question, just for you:
What is the TOTAL Thimerosal content (in micrograms) for the following vaccines, if all given on the same day (i.e. a typical single dose) in the year 1997:
MMR, DTP, OPV, HbPV

You're really not paying any attention, are you?

The original Polio vaccine was given orally (OPV). Later they developed a dead injectable version (IPV).

Holy fυck, you're really bad at this.

Hey, Toto, so who stole the maple syrup stock pile in Quebec?

Also the MMR, OPV and IPV vaccines have never contained any thimerosal.

The original Polio vaccine was given orally (OPV). Later they developed a dead injectable version (IPV). How do we know a dead version of the MMR was not specifically developed for the stockpile version? It would certainly be more cost effective if it had a longer shelf life.

*facepalm*

So let me get this straight. You think that a major pharmaceutical company solved all the technical hurdles involved in creating a new triple vaccine, one that had major advantages over the existing vaccine... and after all the research funds that must have gone into developing that vaccine, they don't DO ANYTHING with it? Except substitute it surreptitiously for the other vaccine? In the cramped recesses of your little mind, this actually seems like what a pharmaceutical company would do to maximize their profit, create a wholly viable product but keep its existence a complete secret? You are a special kind of stupid, m'lad. I bet you watched "Austin Powers" and came out of the theater in chills because Dr. Evil seemed like such a realistic and plausible villain.

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 04 Sep 2014 #permalink

Hey, Toto, so who stole the maple syrup stock pile in Quebec?

Everybody knows that.* BTW, the Walgreens chain has a house brand that is dirt-cheap, probably because people have been led by The Maple Cartel to believe that "Grade A" is superior to "Grade C," when exactly the opposite is the case.

* OK, I was following it, for obscure reasons involving friendly jibes that also involved garage remodeling.

Toto: "The original Polio vaccine was given orally (OPV). Later they developed a dead injectable version (IPV)"

Wrong, wrong, wrongety wrong. The original vaccine was Salk's IPV, and then Sabin developed the OPV.

^ Yup, I "closed" the <a> with an </i&gt. Thank you, Textarea Cache.

^^ Oh, screw it.

@Chris P
Thank you for honestly trying to answer my question and actually documenting your source.

My first comment is that the table was from 1999, not 1997. Actually, I made a mistake, I meant to type 1996. Things can change quickly. The HbPV is Haemophilus b Conjugate Vaccine. It was not listed on the table.

My next point is that the table is labeled thus (emphasis mine):
"Thimerosal Content in SOME US-Licensed Vaccines."
I suggest you read the Simpsonwood document where they candidly refer to the fact that the same antigen can be delivered with or without Thimerosal in some vaccines. Any 10 dose vial contains Thimerosal.

I have another question. The OPV was given at least until 1997 and then was switched to the IPV in 2000. Do you know why? Also, if the vaccine virus was dead, why wouldn't you use Thimerosal?

Thanks

Slightly off-topic, but related to Hooker's COI statement...

Narad, do you happen to know of a link to Hooker's open VICP case?

@Chris P

One more question:
If a child born July 5, 1987 received the Hepatitis B vaccine at birth, did it come from the1986 released stockpile that Dr. Orenstein referred to (due to the Merck fire)? What about the 15 month MMR? How would you know? How old was the stock in the 1986 stockpile? The HepB absolutely contains Thimerosal and would have a longer shelf life.

@Woo Fighter

You failed to include barium and strontium.

Woo Fighter,

WTC7 won't go away....

Toto, things do not change that quickly in vaccination, except after 1999 when many manufacturers agreed to take thimerosal out of pediatric vaccines.

If you were interested in the Hib conjugate vaccine you would not have described it as HbPV (the P standing for polysaccharide). In any case, the conjugate vaccine is indeed in the table.

Given all the vaccines you listed were in the table, I am not sure why you think the “some” in the heading has any bearing on your question.

You say you meant to type 1996, rather than 1997? This looks like some goalpost shifting going on, but you should know that thimerosal was never in MMR vaccine or OPV vaccine.

The OPV was preferred because it provided strong immunity and also contact immunity. That is you didn’t have to be vaccinated to become immune, you just had to be in close contact with someone who had been. This allowed immunity to be spread more rapidly in the population. The IPV was much less effective at providing immunity, but after polio had been eliminated from the US it was preferred. The need to have such a high level of immunity after a single dose was no longer required as risk of exposure to the disease was much less. Also the OPV occasionally (1 in 750,000) reverted to the wild type. Once polio had been eradicated, the risk from the vaccine became higher than the risk of catching the disease.

@AdamG
Thanks for the links. I found the following to be quite interesting:

"Polio vaccines
Oral polio vaccine (OPV):

Also known as the Sabin vaccine.
It comprises live attenuated strains of poliovirus 1-3.
Advantages:
Cheap; orally administered.
Promotes antibody formation in the gut; this protects more effectively against wild polio infection and reduces transmission of the wild virus.
Provides community benefit because the vaccine virus is excreted; therefore the contacts of recently immunised children may, in effect, get a second-hand dose of the vaccine.
It is therefore used to contain outbreaks, and for eradication where polio is endemic.
Drawbacks:
Small risk of vaccine-related polio (VAPP or VDPV, above). The VAPP risk may be higher for immunocompromised patients.
Inactivated polio vaccine (IPV):

Also known as the Salk vaccine.
Contains inactivated strains of polioviruses 1-3.
Advantage: no risk of vaccine-related polio.
Disadvantage: does not stimulate antibody in the gut, so less effective against wild poliovirus.
Protects only the immunised person; no community benefits.
The decision nationally as to which vaccine to use depends on the balance of various risks:

The risks of wild polio virus being imported - if this is high, favours OPV."

"Polio vaccination in the UK
In the UK, immunisation started in 1956 using IPV. This was replaced by OPV from 1962.
From 2004, the UK switched back to using IPV.
IPV is normally given in combination with tetanus and diphtheria vaccines (see 'Immunisation schedule in the UK' below)."

"IPV is part of the diphtheria/tetanus/pertussis/polio/Hib vaccine. It is also available without the haemophilus component for children > 3 years."
http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/Polio-Vaccination.htm
MY NOTE: In 1996 in the U.S., the vaccines were given separately: MMR, DTP, OPV, and HbPV in the same day at age 18 mos.

Interestingly, Dr. Orenstein (Headed up the CDC and implemented the major change in vaccine schedule starting in 1986. He also called for and attended the Simpsonwood meeting) is also very interested in polio vaccines:

"To Keep Polio At Bay, Israel Revaccinates A Million Kids
by JASON BEAUBIEN
September 02, 2013 3:24 AM ET

There's concern that the virus circulating in Israel may spill out of the country, says Emory University's Dr. Walt Orenstein, who has worked extensively on polio. "There's enough virus circulating [in Israel] that it could get out of that area in to other countries," Orenstein says.

To ensure the entire community is protected against polio, Israel has started using the oral vaccine, instead of the injectable one. The oral vaccine contains a weakened, live form of the poliovirus, which can spread through the environment and help immunize kids that don't get vaccinated.

Getting rid of polio flare-ups, like the one in Israel right now, is a crucial part of eradicating polio globally, Orenstein says. Although eradication efforts are focused on the remaining reservoirs in Nigeria, Afghanistan and Pakistan, he says, the rest of world can't let its guard down against the disease."
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/09/02/217194998/to-keep-polio-at-b…
NOTE: This will be a great cohort to measure the incidence of vaccine-related polio. I look forward to reading that study.

Toto: "If a child born July 5, 1987 received the Hepatitis B vaccine at birth,"

Well none did. It was not added onto the schedule until the early 1990s.

"If you were interested in the Hib conjugate vaccine you would not have described it as HbPV"

That is how it was listed on my child's shot card. Beneath it it said "Haemophilus b Conjugate - Vaccine "
In 1996, it seems that it was given as a separate shot and was later combined. I didn't intend to mislead you for the date. I have another child born in 1997, and I accidentally typed that instead. So, I still need the info for 1996.

"Well none did. It was not added onto the schedule until the early 1990s."
I believe the Simpsonwood document begs to differ. Check it out.
Perhaps it was in the "trial" phase that early. My child, who was born in Atlanta, got a shot of something at birth in the hospital. I assumed it was a routine vaccine. That is the only vaccine given at birth and it contained 12.5 micrograms of Thimerosal, I believe.

@ChrisP #139

Contact immunity -- You mean 'only god knows what grampa comes home and sheds on the family after getting his CVS discount??

Thought so. Perhaps, it's the non-vaxxers who should be worried about the *dirty, vaccinated children...*

I just grabbed a printout of the vaccine record for my youngest (born 1994) I got for her university admission. It says:

HIB, PRP-T, PED/ADOLESCENT

They were given in 1994, with the last one in 1995. She was the first of the three to get the HepB vaccine at birth, which is how I know the date. Her older siblings got caught up after she was born (we live where there is a large population with it).

According to the CDC Pink Book Chapter on HIB there are two approved for infants. So it may be just the clinic's way to distinguish the brands.

As I poked around I found a vaccine timeline of sorts:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK25351/

"I believe the Simpsonwood document begs to differ. Check it out."

But it was not give to all infants. See the timeline I posted, the year 1991 shows: "Hepatitis B recommended by ACIP for addition to childhood immunization schedule"

Also check out the Pink Book Chapter on HepB. Read the section titled "Hepatitis B Prevention Strategies." The vaccine was initially given to high risk individuals, but they were not always known due to probable errors in memory and testing. So the vaccine for infants was added in 1991.

And if you make a reference to the Simpsonwood document, than post that link and page number. It is a big document.

@toto

That would probably be the hep-b shot.

If they try to give it at birth, then it's probably because they thought the mother was a whore.

@toto

Sorry man, that was probably the vitamine K shot -- Who knew the one shot my daughter got was a K- shot. A year after birth. Who knew that the one shot they'd push before accepting a patient was the one with mercury that sounds inoccuous??

I remember the inconsolable baby... I found out about the shot later. I'd never dreamed it had mercury in it. I find something else to indict *the system* with every day.

Thx.

@Chris
"Hepatitis B tends to be a bit low, and I think that primarily is because of capturing the birth dose. The hospital's HMO birth dose some times didn't tend to get into the data bases as well in the early years. I think Tom in his presentation will probably have some more to say about this."
Simpsonwood

You are indeed full of useless misinformation Tim.

Vitamin K injections never contained any mercury.

Contact immunity only works for attenuated virus vaccines and then only for some of those. Not so much shedding as defecating.

Post 98 has the link you were asking for. If you don't read the entire doc., you really don't know much. Private knowledge/public knowledge. p. 28

Why is no one answering my very simple questions about the vaccine stockpile? It represents a whole lot of unregulated vaccines, added into the mainstream at the behest of unknown individuals. Why should we assume they are safe? Why should we assume they are labeled correctly?

"If they try to give it at birth, then it’s probably because they thought the mother was a whore."

LOL! Wouldn't that be about 95% of mothers? The '70's had already happened.

Why is no one answering my very simple questions about the vaccine stockpile?

This would be the one involving a cache of thimerosal-laden MMR? I think that has been answered.

“If they try to give it at birth, then it’s probably because they thought the mother was a whore.”

LOL! Wouldn’t that be about 95% of mothers? The ’70′s had already happened.

I'm calling sock.

Toto: "Simpsonwood"

Which happened nine years after the 1991 introduction of the HepB to childhood vaccine schedule.

Missing from your comment:

1: link, would it kill you to provide the URL? You can just cut and paste it.

2: page number

3: quote that actually included the year, you are claiming it was given to infants in the 1980s, I don't see a year in that quote. It was one of the last vaccines to become vaccine free, but that does not change when it was introduced.

Given Toto's use of the 1996/7 dates three things come to mind:

Is one of their children autistic?
If so, sample sizes are too small to use them as proof of anything outside of rare injury events (if that).
Are they forgetting that autism existed for at least forty years before this so-called conspiracy in the 80s/90s?

Other than that, it's a bit of a long drawn out way of presenting the "too many too soon" gambits with a dash of argument from authority and a whole big conspiracy. Simpsonwood, zombies never die do they?

“If they try to give it at birth, then it’s probably because they thought the mother was a whore.”

Actually if you read the CDC PInk Book Chapter on Hepatitis B you will know this is wrong. Many are infected in childhood either at birth or by fluid from others (saliva, blood, etc). It is a chronic infection in many areas and can be easily passed. Not as easy as Hepatitis A, but still not uncommon.

Why is no one answering my very simple questions about the vaccine stockpile? It represents a whole lot of unregulated vaccines, added into the mainstream at the behest of unknown individuals. Why should we assume they are safe? Why should we assume they are labeled correctly?

There is nothing to answer. Unless you have evidence for these claims, they are no more than what if's. What if the moon were really made of cheese? Why should we assume it's not? Why should we assume that it's been correctly identified as rock?*

*A snickerdoodle to those who correctly answered "the scientific method". Something people like Toto tend to forget.

The national stockpile of childhood vaccines is rotated out to the marketplace, to States and to the VFC program, in order to not "waste" (beyond their expiration dates) vaccines.

http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/42/Supplement_3/S125.full.pdf

The national stockpile of childhood vaccines, the States' supply of those vaccines and the VFC vaccines supply are managed through computerized programs:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/vmbip/index.html

About that stockpile......

According to Dr. Orenstein (who worked for the CDC and implemented its 1986 major vaccine schedule change):

"For the longer term, we are working closely with the National Vaccine Advisory Committee to evaluate the reasons for the current supply problems and recommend solutions to prevent vaccine shortages.

Since 1983, CDC has been operating stockpiles of certain vaccines. These stockpiles are used to address short-term disruptions in the production of universally recommended vaccines."
http://www.hhs.gov/asl/testify/t011127.html

SO WHAT is the National Vaccine Advisory Committee?

"The National Vaccine Advisory Committee was established in 1987 to comply with Title XXI of the Public Health Service Act (P.L. 99-660) (Section 2105) (42 U.S. Code 300aa-5 (PDF - 78 KB)). Its purpose is to advise and make recommendations to the Assistant Secretary for Health in his capacity as the Director of National Vaccine Program on matters related to program responsibilities. The Assistant Secretary for Health (ASH) has been designated by the Secretary of Health and Human Services as the Director of the National Vaccine Program.

Functions of NVAC

The National Vaccine Advisory Committee recommends ways to achieve optimal prevention of human infectious diseases through vaccine development, and provides direction to prevent adverse reactions to vaccines.

The functions of the NVAC as specified in the Public Health Service Act are to:

Study and recommend ways to encourage the availability of an adequate supply of safe and effective vaccination products in the States."
http://www.hhs.gov/nvpo/nvac/

NOTICE that the stockpile was set up by the CDC in 1983. An oversight committee was not set up until 1987. THE MMR (and other vaccines) STOCKPILE WAS ACCESSED IN 1986. The cohort data used in the fraudulent Thompson report was from 1986 -2003.

Toto, I suspect you are using the word stockpile in an entirely different way to that used by NVSP. The intention of the stockpile is to have on hand 6 months supply of key pediatric vaccines. These are kept under appropriate storage conditions. It is not like they are just dumped in a warehouse on the floor.

There is no need for thiomersal as a preservative under such circumstances.

You can get more information from the paper that lilady linked to. Here it is again.

@Chris
"NOTICE that the stockpile was set up by the CDC in 1983. An oversight committee was not set up until 1987. THE MMR (and other vaccines) STOCKPILE WAS ACCESSED IN 1986. The cohort data used in the fraudulent Thompson report was from 1986 -2003."

What went on from 1983 to 1986? Send me a link for that time period.

@ilady

Emphasis mine
"Vaccine Management Business Improvement Project (VMBIP)
The Vaccine Management Business Improvement Project (VMBIP) represents the collaborative efforts of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, participating state, local, and territorial immunization programs (“awardees”), and partner agencies to improve vaccine management processes, particularly for publicly-funded vaccine provided through the Vaccines for Children (VFC) Program. By improving vaccine order tracking, inventory visibility, fiscal and dosage accountability, and safety response capability across the supply chain at the federal, state, and local levels, VMBIP has enhanced our nation’s ability to prevent, mitigate, and respond to public health crises. THE PROJECT BEGAN IN LATE 2003, and since then, the following transformative improvements have been achieved: "

Again:

“NOTICE that the stockpile was set up by the CDC in 1983. An oversight committee was not set up until 1987. THE MMR (and other vaccines) STOCKPILE WAS ACCESSED IN 1986. The cohort data used in the fraudulent Thompson report was from 1986 -2003.”

What went on from 1983 to 1986? Send me a link for that time period.

"The cohort data used in the fraudulent Thompson report was from 1986 -2003."

Um, no. The DeStefano et al study was a case-series study with data from 1986-1993. Hooker, who is not an epidemiologist and not a medical statistician, managed through sleight of hand, to produce a fraudulent cohort study:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/08/22/brian-hooker-proves-andrew…

Respectful Insolence used to have a higher grade of troll and sock puppets...I miss them.

Nice try Eli-lilady

I did read 2003, as the study was published in 2004. It is possible that the end date was referring to when they ended their research. HOWEVER, YOU KNOW THE POINT IS IRRELEVANT! The date that is significant IS 1986. Young children who could have received the stockpile vaccines. Please tell me, in 1986, did the lot number indicate that they were from the stockpile? I don't believe they had their "supply chain" set up at that time.
DUH!

@Chris
Did you happen to read this BOMBSHELL affidavit? 2010?
It's now 2014! What are they waiting for? I remember my big brother getting a case of the mumps when he was in middle school. They put a plaster of OATMEAL on the swollen area back then. I thought he looked funny! No one else in the family got it, and he recovered in a few days. There was no panic. LOL!
http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/2010-rabbi…

Toto, it strikes me that you are clutching at straws here. Why should the purpose of the national vaccine stockpile suddenly change because an oversight committee was established?

DeStefano et al. 2004 [note it is a) not a Thompson study – all Thompson would have done was verified diagnoses and b) it is not fraudulent – all we have so far is an unsubstantiated claim that significant information was not included] used a database of case children born between 1986 and 1993. These would have received their first MMR vaccination between 1987 and 1996 (except for a small group who may have been later). Control children would have been born between 1985 and 1994 and would have received their first MMR vaccination between 1986 and 1997.

So in fact, almost none of the cases in the paper would have received MMR from the stockpile in 1986.

As to Thompson's letter to Gerberging, your link does not go there, but there is a copy here. There are numerous questions about the context of this letter. It has for example been published 10 years after it was written and the context given now might be quite wrong. It also doesn't state there is any link between MMR and autism. The complaint in the letters is that Gerberding hasn't responded to a congressman.

@Eli-lilady

Can't you read? In Dr. Thompson's letter, publicly released through his lawyer, he admits to scientific fraud and specifically refers to the African-American cohort IN THE FIRST PARAGRAPH!
DUH!
Throw in the "Dear Dr. Gerberding" letter for good measure!
http://www.morganverkamp.com/august-27-2014-press-release-statement-of-…
Why would he ruin his career now, over a report from 2004????????
He has been at the CDC since 1998. The only logical explanation is that HE IS TELLING THE TRUTH! He felt guilt because the autism rate had risen continually from 1993 through 2006. There was an alarming INCREASE EVERY YEAR. From 23% in 1993 to 1342% in 2006 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This coincided with the change in vaccine schedule.
The website below contains the graph with CDC data showing the exponential rise in autism rates:
http://www.thedailysheeple.com/did-you-know-1-in-6-children-has-a-devel…

Toto, Destefano et al. 2004 analyses African-Americans and published the results in their paper. Table 5 on p 263 if you wish to follow along. There was no significant increase in odds ratio for any MMR vaccination time: 0.83, 0.98 and 1.68.

What Thompson complained about being left out was an analysis for African-American boys at MMR prior to 36 months. There is a major issue with this. It would be one of hundreds of comparisons and if you slice and dice data sets small enough you are likely to find a significant result through chance alone. More importantly, there were only 45 cases that had first MMR vaccination between 24 and 36 months, 79% of these on average would be male and 39% African-American – leaving approximately 14 cases in the group. Quite a small number. So even if there had been a significant effect in the sample, it was unlikely to be meaningful.

Oh and there are lots of reasons why Thompson might have made comment now that had nothing to do with him telling the truth. He may be a) simply mistaken about the statistical analysis; b) upset at one of his bosses and wanting revenge; c) insane; d) been bought out by an anti-vaccination organisation; e) been influenced by someone significant in his life to do this, f) others.

lilady, whenever it has been suggested to me that there is a correlation between glyphosate use and various chronic disease I have always pointed out that we don't know if there is a correlation between organic food consumption and autism.

Can’t you read? In Dr. Thompson’s letter, publicly released through his lawyer, he admits to scientific fraud frankly asserts that Wakefraud pulled a Pink Flamingos on him.

FTFY.

@Chris
"Why should the purpose of the national vaccine stockpile suddenly change because an oversight committee was established?"

WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT PURPOSE? Unmonitored, this could have been a way to bring in "special" vaccines to perform a "test within a test".
Remember, the Simpsonwood doc. stated clearly what an "ideal study" would look like. Post 98. Overall, it could still operate as a legit stockpile.

AGAIN: “NOTICE that the stockpile was set up by the CDC in 1983. An OVERSIGHT committee was not set up until 1987. THE MMR (and other vaccines) STOCKPILE WAS ACCESSED IN 1986, after September 22, 1986, to be exact. Stockpile vaccines could easily been used into 1987, if there was a 6 month supply. No one has ever told me what the shelf life for the MMR would have been at that time. The cohort data used in the fraudulent Thompson report was from 1986 -1993 (?).”

How long before the MMR vaccine maker was shipping again, after the fire?
How long before the stockpile vaccines were actually used up? Who got them? Were they specially marked?
What went on from 1983 to 1986? Send me a link for that time period.

WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT PURPOSE? Unmonitored, this could have been a way to bring in “special” vaccines to perform a “test within a test”.

That would, by definition, be a change in the purpose of the stockpile. There is also no evidence anything like that happened.

AGAIN: “NOTICE that the stockpile was set up by the CDC in 1983. An OVERSIGHT committee was not set up until 1987. THE MMR (and other vaccines) STOCKPILE WAS ACCESSED IN 1986, after September 22, 1986, to be exact. Stockpile vaccines could easily been used into 1987, if there was a 6 month supply. No one has ever told me what the shelf life for the MMR would have been at that time. The cohort data used in the fraudulent Thompson report was from 1986 -1993 (?).”

Not far into 1987, given there was a maximum of 6 months supply. Once again, Destefano et al. 2004 was no a cohort study. It was a case-control study. Almost none of the cases would have been vaccinated by MMR prior to 1987. If the problem, as Thompson asserts, is with African-American boys vaccinated between 24 and 36 months of age, then none of those would have been vaccinated before the start of 1988 - and most a lot later.

You might end up with a haystack if you keep clutching at these straws.

Not sure where to put this thought... Given that Fraudytrousers and the wingnuts at AoA are so fond of erroneously comparing this "cover-up" to the Tuskagee syphilis experiment, how do they feel about their beloved vaccinated vs unvaccinated study, where one group of children would have proven beneficial treatments withheld, but wouldn't know about it? Isn't that *precisely* what happened in the Tuskagee experiment?

By Rebecca Fisher (not verified) on 04 Sep 2014 #permalink

WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT PURPOSE? Unmonitored, this could have been a way to bring in “special” vaccines to perform a “test within a test”.

I thank you for finally being the one to concede, by your own "standards," that the goal of all this fizzling activity was to try to start a Race War.*

Remember, Tex ran away. And wrote a book.

* Obviously not the genuine item.

@Toto:

WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT PURPOSE? Unmonitored, this could have been a way to bring in “special” vaccines to perform a “test within a test”.

Seriously? You're starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist. Why would they do this in the first place? More to the point, how?

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 04 Sep 2014 #permalink

@Krebiozen:

I figured the only person who would notice would be you

I think I've mentioned this before, but I consider Will to be a pretty good read. Certainly more brisk than Meier Kahane, although The Story of the Jewish Defense League easily trumps all forms of Philip Roth.

I would liken Chaim Potok to Buzz Zaino if I weren't simply hard-pressed to find sleep.

@Chris
Please stop your blathering! Anyone who can read will see that William Thompson admitted to committing scientific fraud in the first paragraph of the written statement released through his lawyer. According to Dr. Hooker, the protocol was ALREADY established (Thompson gave a copy of this to Hooker) and allowed for getting race data from BOTH birth certificates and school forms. The data regarding the African American boy cohort was dropped AFTER the results were calculated and indicated an undesirable result. This was done, for no protocol reason, by eliminating all individuals without a birth certificate. This effectively eliminated the African-American cohort. Dr. Hooker, who recorded his phone conversations with Dr. Thompson, said he indicated that the official protocol established that racial identity was contained in the school documents. In Georgia, it is legal to record a second party without their permission, as long as the person recording is in the conversation as well. Dr. Hooker can't be Linda Tripped. The CDC released a statement saying that data had been dropped from the study.

Personally, I consider autism to be a syndrome, one cause being vaccine mercury poisoning (round 1-3mos.) which sets up weaknesses in the body that open it to adverse reactions to the vaccine itself. The brain and gut are most susceptible. The 1986-2000 MMR was given after the 3 mos. 1986-2000 Thimerosal filled vaccines, at about 18 mos. (This is discussed in the Simpsonwood paper) There is no "scientific test" for autism. One can, however, investigate for mercury poisoning and check the gut for vaccine virus, which can be identified by DNA.

Have you ever read this report?
http://www.autismus-ads-behandeln.ch/adhs-autismus/images/Richard%20Det…

Hi Becky: The AoA wingnuts would gladly volunteer their children for a vax-vs-unvaxed study. They are that mentally unbalanced. CIA Parker comments on AoA and on other blogs that her preference is to have her child contract measles, mumps and rubella, rather than giving her child the MMR vaccine.

The Tuskegee study involved only black men who were already infected with the syphilis bacteria. There were antimicrobial drugs available to treat the disease, but they were not provided to the black men.

http://www.examiningtuskegee.com/faq.html

Mr. Fraudytrousers subjected his "study" subjects to painful, invasive and dangerous procedures that were not clinically indicated.

@Julian Frost
The legal means to do this are mentioned separately throughout the Simpsonwood paper. The stockpile, however, is never specifically mentioned. The CDC official who implemented the 1986 vaccine schedule, is the same person who was involved with the stockpile, at least in 1986, and was also the one who organized and attended the Simpsonwood meeting. Everything I have said is technically legal. There is no policy that forbids the individual steps. That is made clear in the Simpsonwood paper. Please don't comment on this unless you have read the entire document.

Please stop your blathering! Anyone who can read will see that William Thompson admitted to frankly asserted that committing scientific fraud Wakefraud Flamingoed him.

I suppose you could always figure out some way in which Thompson was in a position to "commit" any "fraud" in the first place. Stick around, it'll be fun. What do you think his role was as an author to start with?

Don't give me any weird-ass jive about his splitting a customary trouser seam over ZOMG THERE'S A LAWYER TELLING ME HOW TO NOT F*CK THE F*CK UP regarding a document request.

Tell me what you think his specific role was.

Everything I have said is technically legal.

In the sense that it's unlikely that any court would find you competent to stand trial, sure.

Anyone who can read will see that William Thompson admitted to committing scientific fraud in the first paragraph of the written statement released through his lawyer.

No he didn’t. He accused his co-authors of leaving out potential sub-group analysis. There was in fact a very good reason for leaving out that analysis, because the corresponding sub-group analysis because the corresponding group of girls would number about 4. So it was low numbers to start with and even if the original method indicated they would do the analysis by race and gender, it was clear once the data was sorted that this would be statistically pointless. Hence it wasn’t done. Thompson seems to have had to little statistical knowledge to understand that.

According to Dr. Hooker, the protocol was ALREADY established (Thompson gave a copy of this to Hooker) and allowed for getting race data from BOTH birth certificates and school forms.

In fact, this information would have been available in the data set that Hooker obtained from the CDC. Hooker didn’t follow the protocol, mind, because he treated it as a cohort study rather than a case-control study and analysed it using Fishers exact test, which would increase the likelihood of Type 1 errors.

The data regarding the African American boy cohort was dropped AFTER the results were calculated and indicated an undesirable result. This was done, for no protocol reason, by eliminating all individuals without a birth certificate. This effectively eliminated the African-American cohort.

A quick look at Destefano et al. 2004 shows that none of these accusations are true. My guess about what was dropped was the analysis by race and gender. It would have been dropped because the number of cases got too small in some sub-groups.

Dr. Hooker, who recorded his phone conversations with Dr. Thompson, said he indicated that the official protocol established that racial identity was contained in the school documents. In Georgia, it is legal to record a second party without their permission, as long as the person recording is in the conversation as well.

I am not sure whether you are correct about it being legal to record phone conversations in Georgia and cannot be bothered to check at the moment, but it is irrelevant because Hooker would not have been in Georgia when the phone calls were recorded.

@Chris

"That would, by definition, be a change in the purpose of the stockpile" Not really, the stockpile can perform as planned, at the same time. No law is broken. At that time, the Thimerosal content of the same vaccine schedule WAS NOT IDENTICAL. This is made clear in the Simpsonwood doc. The CDC showed no preference in purchasing vaccines with or without Thimerosal, when there was a choice. They only "encouraged" removing Thimerosal from childhood vaccines. It was voluntary. The CDC has never publicly acknowledged a connection between vaccines and autism.

"Not far into 1987, given there was a maximum of 6 months supply. Once again, Destefano et al. 2004 was no a cohort study. It was a case-control study. Almost none of the cases would have been vaccinated by MMR prior to 1987. If the problem, as Thompson asserts, is with African-American boys vaccinated between 24 and 36 months of age, then none of those would have been vaccinated before the start of 1988 – and most a lot later."
Perhaps. If I remember correctly, when I looked at a freeze frame from Hooker's video presentation of data, it seemed that this group had significant numbers before 24 months. This would be when they would have received a higher vaccine Thimerosal load. The stockpile did not just have MMR vaccine. Here's how we solve this question:

Get the clinic(s) location of the deleted African American boys.
Get all the vaccine lot numbers/ID numbers for each boy's vaccines through 36 mos.
Verify if the stockpiled vaccines were coded for that source.
If so, see if the children's vaccine lot and ID code match for stockpiled vaccines. Is there a pattern?
IF THE STOCKPILED VACCINES WERE NOT MARKED AS SUCH, ask a lot more questions!
Otherwise, check vaccine mfg. for any irregularities. Note total Thimerosal load.
PROBLEM SOLVED!

Hooker didn’t follow the protocol, mind, because he treated it as a cohort study rather than a case-control study

I haven't seen anything whatever that explains the leftover "odds ratio" in the abstract, which is to say, I haven't ruled out the possibility of a fast one's having been pulled in proofs.

@Lilady - Same principle then. Obviously they wouldn't see it that way though.

Oh dear. I've just had a look over at AoA, and there's a new post entitled "The Insanely Good Soul of Dr. Andrew Wakefield" by Kunt Heckenlively. And I thought satire was dead after Tony Blair got a "Philanthropist of the Year" award and Kissinger was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.

By Rebecca Fisher (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

*Some people* seem to think they are the privileged few to have actually read those soooper secret transcripts from the Simpsonwood conference, when all the RI regulars have read the Conference transcripts, which are available on the internet:

http://en.wikipedia.org

/wiki/2000_Simpsonwood_CDC_conference

Now along comes yet another ignorant-of-basic science troll/sockie with a reading comprension problem who presumes to tell us he has found the smoking gun within the transcripts to justify disinterring the putrefying corpse of that long since buried dead equine.

Robert Kennedy, Jr., whose conspiracy theories and downright fabrications surrounding the Conference, had his kishkes handed to him when finally Salon.com removed Kennedy's scurrilous article from the website, with this scathing rebuke directed at Kennedy and an apology to his readership:

http://www.salon.com/2011/01/16/dangerous_immunity/

Sunday, Jan 16, 2011 01:01 PM EDT

Correcting our record

We've removed an explosive 2005 report by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. about autism and vaccines. Here's why

In 2005, Salon published online an exclusive story by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. that offered an explosive premise: that the mercury-based thimerosal compound present in vaccines until 2001 was dangerous, and that he was “convinced that the link between thimerosal and the epidemic of childhood neurological disorders is real.”

The piece was co-published with Rolling Stone magazine — they fact-checked it and published it in print; we posted it online. In the days after running “Deadly Immunity,” we amended the story with five corrections (which can still be found logged here) that went far in undermining Kennedy’s exposé. At the time, we felt that correcting the piece — and keeping it on the site, in the spirit of transparency — was the best way to operate. But subsequent critics, including most recently, Seth Mnookin in his book “The Panic Virus,” further eroded any faith we had in the story’s value. We’ve grown to believe the best reader service is to delete the piece entirely.

Kerry Lauerman

Kennedy, still licking his wounds, and not content to just let the matter lie, has embarked on a reckless venture, by paying Brian Hooker to do research for a book, which has already been reviewed by multiple science bloggers and journalists who have described his book as lacking credibility.

Oh dear. I’ve just had a look over at AoA

I'll be damned if I can figure out what this was about.

Toto, just SHUT THE HELL UP for two seconds.

The person who is MAKING an extraordinary claim - such as, well, ANY of the claims you have made here - THAT PERSON is the one who's obligated to show extraordinary EVIDENCE for their claim.

It's not on everyone else to prove that some wild possibility from your imagination DIDN'T happen.

Period. So shut off the smug faucet.

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

@Chris
QUIT LYING.
"He accused his co-authors of leaving out potential sub-group analysis. There was in fact a very good reason for leaving out that analysis, because the corresponding sub-group analysis because the corresponding group of girls would number about 4. So it was low numbers to start with and even if the original method indicated they would do the analysis by race and gender, it was clear once the data was sorted that this would be statistically pointless. Hence it wasn’t done."

It is clear from the Dear Dr. Gerberding letter that the paper was ORIGINALLY to be presented with the alarming African-American statistics INTACT and they would link the MMR vaccine to autism. It's in the first paragraph. Those were the only statistics that clearly demonstrated the alleged link. When they were removed after this letter was written, statistically there remained no demonstrable link. That is the outcome published in the 2004 paper.

"There was in fact a very good reason for leaving out that analysis, because the corresponding sub-group analysis because the corresponding group of girls would number about 4. So it was low numbers to start with.."
REALLY? Dr. Thompson destroyed his CDC career (since 1998), reputation, and paycheck for that bit of data? HA HA HA HA HA !
TEN YEARS AFTER THE FACT? HA HA HA HA!

Here's a tip. Finally, many (but not all) childhood vaccines are available without Thimerosal, but check out the flue shots. Now they want to give them yearly to very young children, and even pregnant women. REALLY?
See table three.
http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSaf…

Not really, the stockpile can perform as planned, at the same time. No law is broken.

But this makes no sense. If you want someone to accept this might have gone on, you need to provide a rationale for it to happen. Just because you can’t find a law against it, does not mean it happens.

Perhaps. If I remember correctly, when I looked at a freeze frame from Hooker’s video presentation of data, it seemed that this group had significant numbers before 24 months. This would be when they would have received a higher vaccine Thimerosal load.

May be you should read Thompson’s letter. He specifically states prior to 36 months. The paper analyses 3 groups, with one being those first vaccinated between 24 and 36 months. Those vaccinated before 24 months would have been in a separate group. If something was happening there and not between 24 months and 36 months, Thompson would not have specifically stated prior to 36 months.

Also, Thompsons’s comment was about MMR, not thimerosal.

As a said before, you have clutched at so many straws you could build a haystack. And I might add have got Thompson’s comments wrong and failed to grasp what DeStefano et al. 2004 or Hooker did in their analyses. Perhaps you should give up?

@Ant-house
I am sure you think you are at a public meeting where you can use your highly trained facilitator skills to control the audience.
NEWS FLASH! This is the internet. DREAM ON.

If what I post has no merit, it would be obvious to all, and I would be ignored. I have already clearly laid out how to prove/disprove my theory. How is that outrageous? The information ABSOLUTELY should be available to the taxpayers who pay for the mystery vaccines, AND BEAR ALL LIABILITY. We have an UNACCOUNTED FOR GAP, and I want to know why? I want to know why African-American boys show such an AMAZINGLY disproportionate rate of autism, JUST BECAUSE OF SKIN COLOR? I am proposing a plausible reason for this alarming statistic from this study. That "1 in 48 boys" CDC quoted autism rate ISN'T JUST AFRICAN AMERICANS, AT ALL. Why wasn't the WHITE MALE COHORT in this study higher? Something stinks.

It is clear from the Dear Dr. Gerberding letter that the paper was ORIGINALLY to be presented with the alarming African-American statistics INTACT and they would link the MMR vaccine to autism. It’s in the first paragraph.

There is no mention of African-Americans in the first paragraph of the letter.

Those were the only statistics that clearly demonstrated the alleged link. When they were removed after this letter was written, statistically there remained no demonstrable link.

Actually, there are other statistically significant differences reported in the DeStefano et al. 2004 paper. You really should read the paper before making more mistakes about what is in it.

REALLY? Dr. Thompson destroyed his CDC career (since 1998), reputation, and paycheck for that bit of data? HA HA HA HA HA !
TEN YEARS AFTER THE FACT? HA HA HA HA!

Strangely, it really does seem so. Although he may have been influenced in that by others.

Here’s a tip. Finally, many (but not all) childhood vaccines are available without Thimerosal, but check out the flue shots. Now they want to give them yearly to very young children, and even pregnant women. REALLY?

This is relevant in what way exactly?

Oh I know, it is all about thiomersal, despite their being no evidence. It is yet another straw.

Lastly, writing in all caps makes you appear like a swivel-eyed loon.

Here’s a tip. Finally, many (but not all) childhood vaccines are available without Thimerosal, but check out the flue shots. Now they want to give them yearly to very young children, and even pregnant women. REALLY?
See table three.

* Sees table 3 *

OK, I'm seeing a whole lot of zeros. And I was bummed out that the clinic didn't have the quadrivalent last year. Have you been reduced to the absurd position of complaining that there are seasonal "flue" shots available with Demonosal?

@ChrisP, et al
You obviously didn't get it the first time, nor did you read the Simpsonwood TRANSCRIPT. THAT IS KEY. The document itself has never been discredited.
A key point: a "study" can be done on 2 levels simultaneously. The public one does not necessarily measure the same thing as the hidden one. This is done all the time in high stakes academic testing. They are called "strands", a test within a test.

"Let’s revisit a CDC event stealthily held just outside of Atlanta in Gwinnett County at a RELIGIOUS (Methodist) retreat center in 2000:

What I want to know is if the “ideal” scientific study to track Thimerosal effect in vaccines, as described below by Dr. Rhodes, WAS ACTUALLY IMPLEMENTED, using the African-American Atlanta cohort fraudulently deleted from the 2004 paper by Thompson and DeStephano. NOTE: DeStephano was a presenter at this meeting. Dr. Orenstein, WHO IMPLEMENTED THE NEW VACCINE SCHEDULE, was at this meeting as well. The 2004 study data was from 1986-2003. Was this pre-planned? The African American babies selected to receive the HIGH dose? The dosage, manufacturer, and clinic location ARE tracked. Specific vaccine lots could be strategically placed. PLEASE CHECK THIS CO-HORT. Dr. Hooker was given the original statistics.

http://skeptico.blogs.com/Simpsonwood_Transcript.pdf

Scientific Review of Vaccine Safety Datalink Information June 7-8, 2000
Simpsonwood Retreat Center
Norcross, Georgia

Philip Rhodes, a Statistician in the National Immunization Program.

Dr. Rhodes

“What would one want? One would want somehow within a situation where there is comparable ascertainment, you would like kids who got very low level, 0 to 25, whatever micrograms of Thimerosal, versus those that got 75 or 100, but to have the same number of vaccinations. That they are equally vaccinated, but because of policy differences or manufacturer differences, have big difference in Thimerosal usage• But also in which you have equal ascertainment, and that may be rough. Getting both of those at the same time may be very, very difficult.”

Toto - forgive me for asking, but could you just explain again where the connection is between Thimerosal and MMR please? I missed that bit.

By Rebecca Fisher (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

“Let’s revisit a CDC event stealthily held just outside of Atlanta in Gwinnett County at a RELIGIOUS (Methodist) retreat center in 2000

Did you miss the part where you've already been roundly mocked for this full-caps absurdity, in addition to the fevered kinetics that led to your sustained inability to even figure out how to spell the lead author's name?

Toto, it has already been explained to you that the study data was not from 1986 - 2003. It has also been explained why.

The fact that you refuse to accept this just demonstrates your ignorance about the study. A quick look at the methods would show.

Also all this harping on thiomersal is irrelevant. Thiomersal was never in MMR. The study only assessed MMR.

Also once again, it was not a cohort study, but a case-control study. Due to your colossal ignorance over other aspects of the study, I am not expecting you to understand the difference. However, your continuing to make this mistake after being reminded several times that it is a mistake does not help your argument.

@ Toto

The 1986-2000 MMR was given after the 3 mos. 1986-2000 Thimerosal filled vaccines.

One last time:
There is no thimerosal in MMR vaccines. There never was.

If you have evidence of the contrary, please enlighten us.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

@Toto: "If what I post has no merit, it would be obvious to all"

Oh, it is.

@NORAD

Just why was the CDC so concerned about removing Thimerosal from vaccines anyway? Or the manufacturers? Flat out, it costs much more $$$$$$$$. It has a shorter shelf life without it. The total Thimerosal load per infant vaccine schedule has dramatically shrunk since the Simpsonwood meeting in 2000 (if the child gets all Thimerosal free ones) Yet, the autism rate from 1993 - 2006 continued to skyrocket; from 23% increase to over 1300%! It seems that as Thimerosal levels in infant vaccines began to gradually drop, there was a big marketing push for flu shots that overlapped. In general, these contained Thimerosal, were distributed widely, and administered YEARLY. There is now a push to mandate them for young children and pregnant women. Hence, the continued upward curve.

I’ll be damned if I can figure out what this was about.

Oh dear, that was painful to read. On the upside, letters like that to the editor are only going to validate the choice to withdraw the paper.

Toto's comments serve a valuable purpose to demonstrate what constitutes anti-vaxxer "research". I like the name-calling too, so 7 year-old.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

@Helianthus

I admit the wording is awkward, but if you read it carefully, that is NOT what I said. First, all the vaccines were separate. Where is your documentation showing that they contained no Thimerosal. Next they were combined to make the MMR. Where is your documentation to show there is no Thimerosal. Next they produced a MMR ll. Where is your documentation to show it does not contain Thimerosal IN ANY FORM. I am not saying you are wrong, I just want to see proof. No one ever answered my question about dead vaccines. If the polio vaccine is dead, why doesn't it contain Thimerosal to kill bacteria and add to the shelf life? Answer that if you can. Thanks.

You forget, it is non-scientists such as myself that must carry full liability for these vaccines. If I don't thoroughly investigate their safety MYSELF, MY CHILD AND I WILL HAVE TO LIVE WITH THE CONSEQUENCES OF A BAD VACCINE REACTION. Obviously, they are not safe, or the manufacturers would carry the liability.
So stuff it.

@Toto

Where is your documentation showing that they contained no Thimerosal. Next they were combined to make the MMR. Where is your documentation to show there is no Thimerosal. Next they produced a MMR ll. Where is your documentation to show it does not contain Thimerosal IN ANY FORM.

Oh, dear. Perhaps a simple explanation would suffice? Thimerosal is a preservative. It acts by killing viruses, bacteria and fungi that might otherwise contaminate a vaccine. The MMR uses "live" weakened virus. If it contained thimerosal, the viral particles would be "killed" and the vaccine rendered useless. If you cannot understand that, then I have no idea what else will convince you.

Now, you are making the claim that MMR (and the separate measles, mumps and rubella vaccines before that) contains thimerosal. Show your evidence that that was the case.

Toto,

Here’s how we solve this question:

Get the clinic(s) location of the deleted African American boys.
Get all the vaccine lot numbers/ID numbers for each boy’s vaccines through 36 mos.
Verify if the stockpiled vaccines were coded for that source.
If so, see if the children’s vaccine lot and ID code match for stockpiled vaccines. Is there a pattern?
IF THE STOCKPILED VACCINES WERE NOT MARKED AS SUCH, ask a lot more questions!
Otherwise, check vaccine mfg. for any irregularities. Note total Thimerosal load.
PROBLEM SOLVED!

Well there you go then :)
We'll eagerly wait for your published results.

"Toto, it has already been explained to you that the study data was not from 1986 – 2003. It has also been explained why."
My research said 2003. It is irrelevant. My hypothesis only concerns the 1986 date. I am proposing a test within a test. It is measuring for Thimerosal, NOT MMR.
DUH.
Why do you assume people are honest and patriotic?
The scientific evidence is against you.

@gayest
"We’ll eagerly wait for your published results."
I plan to drive over to the CDC and ask Dr. Thompson myself.
I certainly won't post the results for free on this blog.

@Odd W.

That's good for MMRll. Now what about the others, plain old MMR and the original individual doses?

That’s good for MMRll. Now what about the others, plain old MMR and the original individual doses?

In what way do they differ that they would also need thiomersal? Can you understand what the function of the preservative is and the type of vaccine you are talking about? Todd explained this rather succinctly. Why are you asking others to do your work for you? Did this issue not come up during the course of your "research"?

By Science Mom (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

"Thimerosal is a preservative. It acts by killing viruses, bacteria and fungi that might otherwise contaminate a vaccine. The MMR uses “live” weakened virus. If it contained thimerosal, the viral particles would be “killed” and the vaccine rendered useless."

So why would one inject this cr*p into the veins of a newborn? No safety studies have ever been done on ETHYLMERCURY injected into human babies. It absolutely kills neurons.

Also, what is keeping the MMR "safe" from the same kinds of contaminates?

"Why are you asking others to do your work for you? Did this issue not come up during the course of your “research”"

This IS part of my research, asking the EXPERTS like you Science Mom. MMR ll didn't exist in 1986. I haven't been able to find data on the old MMR. How about you?

So why would one inject this cr*p into the veins of a newborn? No safety studies have ever been done on ETHYLMERCURY injected into human babies. It absolutely kills neurons.

Vaccines aren't administered intravenously. There are plenty of studies to demonstrate that there isn't any harm. Go through the search function here or just read some of the recent Thompson/Hooker posts and there are substantial discussions in the comments section.

Also, what is keeping the MMR “safe” from the same kinds of contaminates?

Why are you concerning yourself with stockpiled vaccines when you don't even grasp the most rudimentary aspects of biologics? Single dose injectors that's how.

Also, what is keeping the MMR “safe” from the same kinds of contaminates?

By Science Mom (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

Toto,

If what I post has no merit, it would be obvious to all, and I would be ignored. I

Meaningless drivel, is how I would describe it. Why would we leave misinformation unchallenged?

I've read the Simpsonwood transcript and see nothing suspicious or worrying there at all. On the contrary, I was glad to see scientists going out on a limb to discuss what possible ways thimerosal in vaccines could theoretically damage children, and what we would expect to see if it did. Of course this has been seized upon as admissions that thimerosal actually does cause these theoretical problems.

The passage Toto has fixated on is a discussion of the Verstraeten study and its shortcomings. There is nothing sinister there at all. I find it hilarious how the Simpsonwood transcript has been so ridiculously misinterpreted.

Just why was the CDC so concerned about removing Thimerosal from vaccines anyway? Or the manufacturers? Flat out, it costs much more $$$$$$$$.

As the AAP has stated in this paper (PDF) published by the AAP last year (forgive the repetition, but it is apparently necessary):

Had the evidence that is available now been available in 1999, the policy reducing thimerosal use would likely have not been implemented. Furthermore, in 2008 the World Health Organization (WHO) endorsed the use of thimerosal in vaccines.

Also:

You forget, it is non-scientists such as myself that must carry full liability for these vaccines. If I don’t thoroughly investigate their safety MYSELF, MY CHILD AND I WILL HAVE TO LIVE WITH THE CONSEQUENCES OF A BAD VACCINE REACTION.

Scientists don't have children, nieces, nephews or grandchildren? My son spent weeks in the hospital with whooping cough as a direct result of people not vaccinating their children because of a false vaccine scare. He lived, luckily, but dozens didn't. How many people have vaccines killed in recent years?

Anyway, what makes you think you are capable of investigating vaccine safety? You would need several years of education to understand the first thing about the subject, judging from what you have posted here.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

Let me see if I've got Toto's notion straight:

There was a vaccine stockpile created to ensure continuity of vaccination in case of interruption of the pipeline. Somehow there was no supervision whatsoever of this stockpile for years so nefarious CDC scientists (but I repeat myself) sneaked in and adulterated some of the MMR with high doses of Thimerosal. Providentially (cue dramatic music) there was a fire in a vaccine manufacturing plant, giving them their opportunity to conduct an unethical experiment. Vials of MMR were shipped out, the high-T vials being labelled "For African-American boys only" and the low-T ones being labelled "For girls and non-African-Americans only". Pediatricians across the nation obediently injected each child from the correct vial, and not one of them made a peep about it because they were all participants in the highly secret study. In 2003, the highly secret study was completed and the effects on African-American boys were identified. However, the results of the highly secret experiment that involved every pediatrician in America were immediately suppressed until Dr. Thompson bravely stepped forth to announce what every pediatrician in America already knew although they all lie about it.

Does that correctly sum up Toto's notions?

@Science Mom
"There are plenty of studies to demonstrate that there isn’t any harm."
Citations please. I haven't found any. They are all for methyl mercury. One cannot just assume they react the same. If you bothered to read the Simpsonwood transcript, you would know that the experts assembled there said there were NONE.

'Vaccines aren’t administered intravenously."
Technically, I guess you are right....unless you get an old shaky-handed nurse. It does all end up in the bloodstream however, and across the blood-brain barrier.

If thimerosal "absolutely kills neurons", why aren't the sites of intramuscular injection of thimerosal-containing vaccines permanently paralyzed?

Citations please. I haven’t found any. They are all for methyl mercury. One cannot just assume they react the same. If you bothered to read the Simpsonwood transcript, you would know that the experts assembled there said there were NONE.

Do your own work. You came here with both barrels blazing remember? I told you where to find discussions here, search. I read Simpsonwood and am with Krebiozen's assessment. Besides, note the date of Simpsonwood, has time and scientific research somehow stood still?

Technically, I guess you are right….unless you get an old shaky-handed nurse. It does all end up in the bloodstream however, and across the blood-brain barrier.

Add anatomy, physiology and pharmacokinetics to the long list of things you don't know but should.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

@LeWd

Not quite.

Science Mom, you are full of hot air and just spout assertions.
Obviously, the plain old MMR seems to be hidden from sight. Why? You forget that the Simpsonwood document is absolutely relevant, because they were describing vaccines (and Thimerosal content) that were in use with some of the earlier cohort/case studies used in the 2004 report. They made it clear that the same vaccine delivered in different ways could affect the Thimerosal content by as much as 25 micrograms. A slight change in the vaccine schedule (like getting the Thimerosal filled HepB shot at birth) could add an extra 12.5 micrograms. Some vaccines are available with or without Thimerosal. If you actually read the Simpsonwood Transcript, and aren't lying, THEN GOD HELP YOUR SOUL.

They made it clear that the same vaccine delivered in different ways could affect the Thimerosal content by as much as 25 micrograms.

Um wut?

Obviously, the plain old MMR seems to be hidden from sight. Why?

WTF are you going on about? What do you even mean "hidden from sight"? WTF is "plain old MMR"?

A slight change in the vaccine schedule (like getting the Thimerosal filled HepB shot at birth) could add an extra 12.5 micrograms.

Yeah so? Simpsonwood's purpose was to examine this and then and since then, found to be moot.

Some vaccines are available with or without Thimerosal.

All paediatric vaccines are thiomersal-free, most flu vaccines are thiomersal-free and recommended for children and pregnant women. Thiomersal has been removed from several countries several years ago and yet ASD prevalence continues to rise so what you are drumming on about IN ALL CAPS is beyond me.

I think you would make an excellent addition to the Thinking Moms' Revolution; you should check them out. Do you drink?

By Science Mom (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

Toto, don't go around talking abound things that might have happened. You might be responsible for any number of unsolved murders. We deal with what the evidence shows has happened.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

@Kreepycitizen
'Anyway, what makes you think you are capable of investigating vaccine safety? You would need several years of education to understand the first thing about the subject, judging from what you have posted here."

You make an interesting point. In the U.S., one must have informed consent before subjecting a healthy child to a medical procedure carrying RISK. If the average American cannot properly ascertain the risk for a vaccine, how can they make this decision at all? If the SCIENTISTS know all the risks, and deem vaccines SAFE, why don't the pharmaceutical companies they work for CARRY THE LIABILITY FOR THEIR PRODUCT?
Enigmas.

@gayest

Not cool.

Hey Twato if you want your questions answered, you may want to adopt a different tactic.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

@Gay Falcon

There HAS been a crime. One of the criminals has confessed. Legitimate data, EXPOSING ANOTHER CRIME, was removed. The resulting fraudulent report was submitted for peer review.
The removed data is a CLUE. No one has acknowledged the elephant in the room. The latest autism rate for boys is 1 in 48. I have not heard that the majority of that rate is African American. MANY of those kids are white. Yet, the original statistics showed a 340% increase in probability?/rate? among African American boys. The white boys were MUCH lower, such that their rate was considered to be insignificant. Something is wrong with this spread. How can dark skin account for this? The study makes assumptions on vaccines given BEFORE the MMR. Was the Thimerosal load equally ignored and ONLY the MMR considered? If so, this could explain the GAP. Perhaps this data was intended to be extracted all along. It is possible. It is hinted at in the Simpsonwood quote. That is where I got the idea to begin with. The mechanics are all there.

"Twato"
I like it. Science Mom, if you had the answers, you would have given them. Nice try though.

@Gay Falcon

Your questions will not be taken seriously if you keep speaking like a child.

@-dam Geeeee!
If you are speaking, you should yell a little louder! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!

Seriously, with all of these LAME digital monikers, I can't help but make fun.
At least mine has some spunk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZR64EF3OpA

@ AdamG, I think Toto is gunning for suicide by mod given her epic ignorance of what is even in vaccines, let alone how to evaluate scientific studies. It's got to be embarrassing.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

Toto: "That’s good for MMRll. Now what about the others, plain old MMR and the original individual doses"

There is no more "plain old MMR.". In 1971 Merck introduced a measles, mumps and rubella vaccine with specific strains of each virus. The mumps strain was "Jeryl Lynn" named after the child who provided the sample, the main researcher/developer's daughter.

In 1978 Merck decided use an improved rubella vaccine strain, which resulted in MMR II.

There has never been any thimerosal in any MMR vaccine. It comes as a dry powder plug that is mixed with sterile water and must be used within eight hours.

What's the point in giving answers to questions that don't even make sense? "How can you PROVE that this elaborate bait-and-switch conspiracy scenario that I pulled out of my ass didn't happen???" We don't have to, gnoron; the person MAKING the extraordinary claim is the one who needs to provide extraordinary evidence. Until you do, you're walking around with your underpants on your head, thinking you're Beau Brummel.

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

The ignorant troll needs to get off the internet and do what It promised to do, upstream at # 211

"I plan to drive over to the CDC and ask Dr. Thompson myself.
I certainly won’t post the results for free on this blog."

Toto: If the average American cannot properly ascertain the risk for a vaccine, how can they make this decision at all?

Well, some people (unlike you) passed high school biology, or at least can understand the way vaccines work. Some people can't afford to stay home with sick kids, and some people have parents/grandparents who had bad experiences with VPDs. There's a lot of things that go into risk assessment.
Granted, Americans are getting dumber, but not as dumb as you and AOA would like.

As for name-calling, welp, you could do that WITHOUT being a jerk-ass homophobe, but that ship has sailed.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

@Chris
Thank you kindly for your enlightening answer. So, are you really saying that the MMR ll is just like THOSE AMAZING SEA MONKEYS? Freeze dried- add water and WATCH THEM MAGICALLY COME TO LIFE? I had absolutely no idea!

However, I am afraid I have some bad news about Jeryl Lynn copyright. It seems that after ALL those years, she is feeling pretty run down. Perhaps a J.L. 3 is in the cards? Of course, she does her best to keep a stiff upper lip. She never lets on about how sick she really is. But those close to her--they know. I think it would be best if she has a nice loooooong R&R, all expenses paid of course. Hopefully her pet rabbit will keep her company. Perhaps a younger, stronger Jeryl Lynn can take her place and continue to bear the burden of the world. But of course, it won't be cheap. I'll leave you to read the sad, sad tale of Jeri for yourselves....
http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/2010-rabbi…

Antaeus Feldspar: "What’s the point in giving answers to questions that don’t even make sense?"

Actually my explanation was not for her. It was just a general explanation as a way how she is so far off the mark. I knew she was in outfield when I asked her to give me a link and page number of the Simpsonwood documents that showed the HepB was given to infants in the 1980s, and all she did was some random quote with no year mentioned.

See what I mean? She has really jumped off the edge of reality.

Also the Jeryl Lynn is still the safest mumps strain, as noted with the attempted replacement with the cheaper Urabe strain elsewhere on this planet.

Toto- like many critics- doesn't GET that SBM doesn't hinge on the results of one study but instead, on the MANY studies that make up the state of knowledge currently.

If MMR affected black children differently than it did white children, it would show up in other studies -some done by the CDC, including one from 2014 that included 14 areas not one city- and others from places not under the CDC.

In other news:
Heckenlively writes about Andy's "Insanely good soul"; John Stone remarks that the DeStefano study was meant to contradict AJW at the time of the plot against him.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

Oh, and continuing to try to bring in some reality: even getting mumps itself does not always work for immunity. I had it twice, and apparently that was not uncommon in the 1960s. The prevailing myth was then was if you got it on one side, you could get it on the other side.

It is not reasonable to expect a vaccine to both be safe and confer better immunity than the disease.

@Politicalguineapig (waaay too many letters)

"As for name-calling, welp, you could do that WITHOUT being a jerk-ass homophobe, but that ship has sailed."

Please chill. I do wordplay. What is wrong with "gay"?
It means HAPPY!.
Let Pharrell put you in a better mood...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6Sxv-sUYtM

-btw- 'toto' IIRC is a Kikuyu word ( Kenya) that refers to small, male children. ( from Isaak Dinesen- and she would know things like this)

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

Well, it's easy to spot the Merck employees on this board. Do you get paid overtime? I guess $4 billion goes a long way. Not bad pay for enduring a case of the mumps.
I would like to see a jury trial though. I could REALLY do some vaccine research then.

Have you developed a vaccine for whistleblowers yet?
I am sure it would be another billion dollar hit!

When is the Troll going to get in Its car to drive over to the CDC to speak with William Thompson?

@ Be-nice

Do you get paid to make your posts? Someone needs to get their money back. Tell them Toto is available for hire. This blog obviously needs a little livening up.
Thanks!

"Also the Jeryl Lynn is still the safest mumps strain"
As in 20% effective?

Toto: What is wrong with “gay”? It means HAPPY!

Not only do you not understand biology, you don't get English. Yes, in the dictionary, it does mean happy, but we both know that's not what you mean. And the dictionary definition hasn't been used for a loooong time.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

@illady
"When is the Troll going to get in Its car to drive over to the CDC to speak with William Thompson?"

Is this a trick question?

@Politicalguineapig

"Don we now our gay apparel"
I sing it every year. Do you have a problem with Christmas carols?
Yea. I thought so. A Christ denier.
I hope you enjoy roasting marshmallows.

Toto,

A slight change in the vaccine schedule (like getting the Thimerosal filled HepB shot at birth) could add an extra 12.5 micrograms.

I'm wondering if you understand what a tiny amount this is. Do you know how much a single drop of water weighs?

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

“Also the Jeryl Lynn is still the safest mumps strain”
As in 20% effective?

Where did all the mumps go Toto? Why has incidence fallen by 99% in every country the vaccine is in routine use?

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

Toto:

@gayest
“We’ll eagerly wait for your published results.”
I plan to drive over to the CDC and ask Dr. Thompson myself.
I certainly won’t post the results for free on this blog.

Can you explain what my alleged sexual preference (or if you are using the archaic term, my cheerfulness) has to with lightheartedly recommending you do your own research instead of demanding answers you like to your increasingly implausible questions from a group of "lame monikers" on an internet forum? I'm confused.

Also, what in my single comment on you made me stand out as the epitome of particular sexual identity (or expression of emotion) and deserved a superlative?

I also don't really understand why you keep asking for and expecting others to deliver answers on this forum if you yourself, should you get to meet Dr. Thompson and all was made clear, already have refused to share?

Orac, you need to go shopping at a better troll farmer. This one clearly was not ready to be picked, yet.

Toto: My point about English stands, and it's irrelevant to my religious beliefs. But, frankly, considering the Christians in my country, I'd rather go to hell then spend eternity with sanctimonious, sour-faced fundies. I prefer to have fun.
And no wonder you don't understand science.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

I wonder if Toto is part of the Drinking Moms Revolution? She should perhaps have someone else drive her to the CDC.

@Kreepy Ozone

Yes. Just like Curare. A little goes a long way.
Didn't you read Jaryl Lynn's Dad's warning, from 1991, about the potential danger of the cumulative ethyl mercury load with an increased infant vaccine schedule?
Please post all the safety research for use of ethyl mercury in children. I haven't seen any. Do not try to substitute methyl mercury.
Money first!

Toto, you declared, quite definitively, that the oral polio vaccine came out before the injected version. Less than thirty seconds of searching online would have shown you otherwise. If you can't even get basic facts right, why should we trust you?

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

"Where did all the mumps go Toto? Why has incidence fallen by 99% in every country the vaccine is in routine use?"

Good question. The bubonic plague wiped out large number in the Middle Ages. They never created a vaccine for it. Where did it go? Oh it is still around, but I haven't seen a third of the population die from it lately, have you? Now we just PATENT it and weaponize it. Do you know who owns the Ebola patent? If you get sick from it, you have to pay royalties.....

Does this coincide with the lawsuit claims?
Here's a recent vaccinated mumps outbreak:
"State and local health departments, in collaboration with CDC, continue to investigate a mumps outbreak that began in New York in June 2009. The index case occurred in a boy aged 11 years who had returned on June 17 from a trip to the United Kingdom, where approximately 7,400 reports of laboratory-confirmed mumps were received by the Health Protection Agency in 2009. He then attended a New York summer camp for tradition-observant Jewish boys, where he became symptomatic on June 28. Subsequently, other camp attendees and a staff member were reported to have mumps, and transmission continued in multiple locations when the camp attendees returned home. As of January 29, 2010, a total of 1,521 cases had been reported, with onset dates from June 28, 2009, through January 29, 2010, a substantial increase from the 179 cases reported as of October 30, 2009. The outbreak has remained confined primarily to the tradition-observant Jewish community, with <3% of cases occurring among persons outside the community. The largest percentage of cases (61%) has occurred among persons aged 7-18 years, and 76% of the patients are male. Among the patients for whom vaccination status was reported, 88% had received at least 1 dose of mumps-containing vaccine, and 75% had received 2 doses. This is the largest mumps outbreak that has occurred in the United States since 2006. Although mumps vaccination alone was not sufficient to prevent this outbreak, maintaining high measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccination coverage remains the most effective way to prevent outbreaks and limit their size when they occur."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20150887

@Gray Davis (is that a politically correct insult?)

Actually, my mistake was a compliment to vaccine makers.
My oldest started out with the OPO and only the youngest got the IPO. Silly me. I assumed that this was progress! I remember getting my OPO on a sugar cube when I was in kindergarten. It seemed to me that a dead injectable virus would be safer, and would have a longer shelf life.
A logical conclusion, but not accurate. But of course, you all continually LIE on this board, so I guess we are even.

To anyone who thinks Toto has a point in #262 (both of them): The mumps vaccine is effective. I noticed you failed to list the percent of the general population that was vaccinated. Consider the following. A vaccine is 95% effective. Out of ten thousand people, 99% get the vaccine. Disease breaks out:
9900*95% = 9405 are protected from the disease
495 vaccinated get the disease
100 unvaccinated get the disease
So you have a situation where 83% of those who get the disease are vaccinated, even though the vaccine is extremely effective.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

Oh [bubonic plague] is still around, but I haven’t seen a third of the population die from it lately, have you?

Hey, Toto got something right! Bubonic plague is still around. But, sadly, she fails to do any work to figure out why people are not dropping dead of it. Unlike in the Middle Ages, we now have these things called antibiotics. And it turns out they work quite well against Yersinia pestis, the bacterium that causes the plague. They work so well, in fact, that there is currently no need to develop a vaccine. We are also much better at keeping exposure risks down (not a whole lot of flea-ridden mice and rats scurrying through your sleeping quarters on a daily basis these days).

Oh, and for those keeping score, note that I, a pro-vaccine individual, am saying there's no need for a bubonic plague vaccine.

The HbPV is Haemophilus b Conjugate Vaccine. It was not listed on the table.

No, you're just so shockingly stupid that you can't read it. What do you think ACTHib, Hiberix, and PedvaxHIB are?

Toto is someone who can say " Do you know who owns the Ebola patent? If you get sick from it, you have to pay royalties…." and "Actually, my mistake was a compliment to vaccine makers." with a straight face. I'm starting to see why everyone thinks she's drunk.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

Narad, do you happen to know of a link to Hooker’s open VICP case?

Sure. None of the documents have been uploaded to the RECAP archive.

The IPV was much less effective at providing immunity, but after polio had been eliminated from the US it was preferred.

For certain values of eliminated.

Toto,

Please post all the safety research for use of ethyl mercury in children. I haven’t seen any.

You haven't looked very hard, have you? Here are several studies that look at the toxicity of thimerosal. Some are reviews with links to other studies I haven't included here. This isn't a gishgallop, you asked for this.

Axton JMH. Six cases of poisoning after a parenteral organic mercurial compound (merthiolate). Postgrad Med J 1972;48:417-421.
Ball LK, Ball R, Pratt RD. An assessment of thimerosal use in childhood vaccines. Pediatrics 2001;1147-1154.
Blair AMJN, Clark B, Clarke, AJ, Wood, P. Tissue Concentrations of Mercury after Chronic Dosing of Squirrel Monkeys with Thimerosal. Toxicology 1975;3:171-1766.
Cox NH, Forsyth A. Thimerosal allergy and vaccination reactions. Contact Dermatitis 1988;18:229-233.
Fagan DG, Pritchard JS, Clarkson TW, Greenwood MR. Organ mercury levels in infants with omphaloceles treated with organic mercurial antiseptic. Arch Dis Child 1977;52:962-964.
Goncalo M, Figueiredo A, Goncalo S. Hypersensitivity to thimerosal: the sensitivity moiety. Contact Dermatitis 1996;34:201-203.
IOM (Institute of Medicine). Thimerosal-containing vaccines and neurodevelopmental disorders. Washington DC: National Academy Press; 2001.
Magos L, Brown AW, Sparrow S, Bailey E, Snowden RT, Skipp WR. The comparative toxicology of ethyl- and methylmercury. Arch Toxicol 1985,57:260-267.
Matheson DS, Clarkson TW, Gelfand EW. Mercury toxicity (acrodynia) induced by long-term injection of gammaglobulin. J Pediatr 1980: 97:153-155Moller H. All these positive tests to thimerosal. Contact Dermatitis 1994; 31:209-213.
Pfab R, Muckter H, Roider G, Zilker T. Clinical Course of Severe Poisoning with Thiomersal. Clin Toxicol 1996;34:453-460.
Powell HM, Jamieson WA. Merthiolate as a Germicide. Am J Hyg 1931;13:296-310.
Rohyans J, Walson PD, Wood GA, MacDonald WA. Mercury toxicity following merthiolate ear irrigations. J Pediatr 1994;104:311-313.

This review has many references to information about the safety of thimerosal. Also worth reading is the 2004 Institute of Medicine review of vaccine safety. This extremely rigorous review concluded:

Immunization Safety Review: Vaccines and Autism finds that the body of epidemiological evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism.

That's about as close as you will get to them declaring thimerosal safe, given the scientific language they use.

I think it is true that thimerosal was introduced without proper safety testing, but that was 80 years ago, when different standards applied. Even by 2000 there was little evidence to support the use of thimerosal, which was why it was decided to remove it from most vaccines, based on the assumption that the toxicity of ethylmercury was the same as methylmercury. However, research since then has shown that ethylmercury is considerably less toxic than methylmercury as it is more rapidly and more completely excreted and less of if gets into the brain.
As I have posted before, if we had known in 2000 what we know now, thimerosal would most likely not have been removed from vaccines.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

Just why was the CDC so concerned about removing Thimerosal from vaccines anyway?

Umm, to placate time-wasting anti-vaccine brain-dead maroons?

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

But of course, you all continually LIE on this board, so I guess we are even.

Any actual examples of this? I haven't seen any, unlike AoA or TMR, where misinformation flows like water.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

Thanks, Narad. Much appreciated.

"95% effective"
That's the required rate mandated by the FDA. Evidently, a couple of scientists have charged that this "efficacy rate" can be fraudulently manufactured. Whether their charges are true remains to be determined in a court of law.

Interestingly, an AIDS vaccine researcher in Iowa was found guilty of research fraud last October and is being indicted. Evidently he was having trouble showing a satisfactory efficacy rate in rabbit animal trials for an AIDS vaccine, funded by the NIH. He tried to reach the magic number by adding in HUMAN
ANTIBODIES. Evidently a whistleblower was checking his results. Epic Fail.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/researcher-charged-major-hiv-vaccine-fra…

Any actual examples of this? I haven’t seen any, unlike AoA or TMR, where misinformation flows like water.

Ahem Krebiozen, we are not telling her what she wants to hear, affirming her blatantly false statements or congratulating her on such an investigative spirit that she's delving into questions about the ebil vaccine stockpiles of the 1980's. Ergo we lie. And we're smarter than she so we're all pharma shills. Crap, a bath sponge is smarter than she is.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

That’s the required rate mandated by the FDA. Evidently, a couple of scientists have charged that this “efficacy rate” can be fraudulently manufactured. Whether their charges are true remains to be determined in a court of law.

Oh FFS there isn't any goddamned "mandate" for vaccine "efficacy rate". And there is no such term as "efficacy rate".

By Science Mom (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

Just why was the CDC so concerned about removing Thimerosal from vaccines anyway?

It wasn't because there was a body of evidence suggesting that thimerosal at exposure levels achievable as the result of routine vaccination was harmful, toto.

It occured instead in the absence of any evidence its use as a preservative in vaccine formulations conveyed risk, as a conseqeunce of the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) Modernization Act of 1997, which directed the FDA to comprehensively review the risk all mercury containing products it oversaw (not just vaccines). Thimerosal was removed from vaccine formulations as a precautionary step until it could complete a comprehensive analysis.

That analysis, conducted in 1999, found no evidence of harm from the use of thimerosal as a vaccine preservative, other than transient local hypersensitivity reactions.

Note at the time thimerosal was removed only 2% of US vaccine stocks contained thimerosal as a preservative.

Note also that the rincidence of new autism diagnoses has continued to increase despite the removal of thimerosal as a preservative.

Thanks, Narad. Much appreciated.

No problem. I've brought the docket up to date. I've got about $3 left of free PACER this quarter, but all of the documents I've checked are sealed.

Todd W: Oh, and for those keeping score, note that I, a pro-vaccine individual, am saying there’s no need for a bubonic plague vaccine.

Right. Bacteria and viruses are different- and it's much easier simply figuring a way to keep the fleas out and treating with anti-biotics than to develop a vaccine. Also, bubonic plague isn't airborne right? It can't be transmitted directly person-to-person unlike a number of viral diseases.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

Thanks Kreepy Ozone!
"However, research since then has shown that ethylmercury is considerably less toxic than methylmercury as it is more rapidly and more completely excreted and less of if gets into the brain."

This is the research I want to see. Can you cite it?
What about the 1 in 48 boys that can't excrete it due to other complications such as mitochondrial difference?

@PGP

Y. pestis is primarily a bloodborne pathogen, so it doesn't spread very easily. Risk of infection is pretty low unless you come in contact with infected blood/body fluids (human or other animal) or it progresses to a pneumonic form, in which case it can be spread by coughing.

Tito:

Thanks Kreepy Ozone!
“However, research since then has shown that ethylmercury is considerably less toxic than methylmercury as it is more rapidly and more completely excreted and less of if gets into the brain.”

This is the research I want to see. Can you cite it?
What about the 1 in 48 boys that can’t excrete it due to other complications such as mitochondrial difference?

I think tit for tat is only fair, so can you cite the research that states 1 in 48 boys can't excrete thimerosal?

@Jesus, God, Country

"Note also that the rincidence of new autism diagnoses has continued to increase despite the removal of thimerosal as a preservative."

I'd like to see those stats. Do you have them for 2007 to present? As I have already pointed out, they are pushing Thimerosal laden flu vaccines, given yearly, while at the same time they have gradually decreased (or offered more mercury free ones) the mercury in the infant vaccines. Same difference. Nice trick.
Mayor Bloomberg must have had a vested interest.

I meant Toto, apologies for the typo.

Toto:

As I have already pointed out, they are pushing Thimerosal laden flu vaccines, given yearly, while at the same time they have gradually decreased (or offered more mercury free ones) the mercury in the infant vaccines. Same difference.

Where's your evidence that the two amounts would be equal? Or if they're not, why do you insist that thimerosal causes more autism in lower dosages (because total amount of thimerosal delivered via vaccines has gone down since thimerosal was phased out from all pediatric vaccines (except some flu vaccines not usually recommended for children) but autism rates have gone up.

@ Aghast!

"Date Published:
March 29, 2012
1 in 48 boys diagnosed with autism
(March 29, 2012—Atlanta) The Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta today reported that 1 in 88 children (1 in 48 boys) is diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder (ASD). Previous reports had pegged the number at 1 in 110."
http://autismsciencefoundation.org/press-releases/1-88-diagnosed-autism…

CDC Autism rates '93 to '06 (see bar graph)
http://www.thedailysheeple.com/did-you-know-1-in-6-children-has-a-devel…

PLUS This:

http://www.autismus-ads-behandeln.ch/adhs-autismus/images/Richard%20Det…

@Aghast!

This is a test to see if this is being censored.

The vast (and I mean vast) majority of children receive the nasal variety of vaccines (like FluMist) which contain no Thimerosal, while most of the rest (if not all of them, like in places like California) get Thimerosal-free shot flu vaccines.

Toto isn't in Kansas anymore, obviously.....

@Aghast!

I am posting my links one by one to see what gets through the filter.
“Date Published:
March 29, 2012
1 in 48 boys diagnosed with autism
(March 29, 2012—Atlanta) The Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta today reported that 1 in 88 children (1 in 48 boys) is diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder (ASD). Previous reports had pegged the number at 1 in 110.”
http://autismsciencefoundation.org/press-releases/1-88-diagnosed-autism…

Also, bubonic plague isn’t airborne right? It can’t be transmitted directly person-to-person unlike a number of viral diseases.

Well, the bacterium lends itself to airborne transmission, but then (as Todd W has said) it is by definition Pneumonic rather than bubonic plague.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

There is a vaccine for plague, but it isn't very good and is only recommended for people who are likely to come into contact with plague.
There has been a lot of speculation about mechanisms of plague transmission, especially in view of the fact there are two different presentations - pneumonic and bubonic.

@Aghast!

"Molecular Aspects of Thimerosal-induced Autism

Richard C. Deth, Ph.D.

Professor of Pharmacology Northeastern University Boston, Massachusetts

Summary

The developmental disorder autism has both genetic and environmental origins, and its forty-fold increase during the past two decades reflects an increased role for environmental factors. It has been proposed that increased use of vaccines containing the ethylmercury derivative thimerasol is the major contributing factor. Published research from my laboratory has revealed that thimerosal is an exceptionally potent inhibitor of biochemical pathways that transfer single carbon atoms between molecules. These “methylation” pathways are critically involved in several important functions including the regulation of gene expression and the molecular mechanism of attention. Recent studies from my lab indicate that thimerosal exerts its toxic effect on methylation by interfering with formation of the active form of vitamin B12, also known as cobalamin. Dietary B12 must be converted to methylB12 (methylcobalamin) in order to assist in the transfer of single-carbon methyl groups from the folic acid pathway by the enzyme known as methionine synthase. By reducing methylB12 formation, thimerosal inhibits this enzyme and thereby interferes with methylation events. Autistic children have abnormal plasma levels of methylation-related metabolites and exhibit higher frequencies of genetic mutations that affect this pathway. These genetic risk factors make them less able to detoxify thimerosal and also increase their sensitivity to its mechanism of toxicity. In many cases, autism can be effectively treated by the administration of methylB12 along with other agents that augment methylation capacity. Taken together, these facts indicate that increased exposure to thimerosal has combined with genetic risk factors in a sensitive subpopulation to cause the recent rise in autism."

Toto:
Please read the following question carefully, twice.

What is your evidence that 1 in 48 boys cannot excrete thimerosal?

You've read it twice? Good. Not, to emphasize the point, I didn't ask where you got the number. I asked for a source for this claim you made: "What about the 1 in 48 boys that can’t excrete it [thimerosal]"

sign.

Good. Now, to emphasize the point,...

@Aghast

The flu vaccines on the shot sheet said 25 micrograms ea. Twice the amount in the average pre-2000 0-3 vaccine schedule (12.5 micrograms). The flu shots are given YEARLY. Early childhood vaccines...not so much. Bloomberg forced New Yorkers to give yearly flu vaccines to lids 4 and under attending school. They are now pushing flu shots on PREGNANT women. The babies are now being exposed to mercury in the womb. This was one thing Dr. William Thomas was quite alarmed about. Dr. Hooker recorded his reaction. I posted it earlier.

Toto @286 (my emphases)

1 in 48 boys diagnosed with autism

Your claim back at #280 reads

the 1 in 48 boys that can’t excrete it due to other complications such as mitochondrial difference

Are you claiming all boys with autism have a “mitochondrial difference”?

@toto,

Did he ever manage to publish that anywhere or is it just on anti-vaxx sites. I mean someone with those initials seems capable of publishing other articles that make me think it is the same guy, but if he can't even get the bottom feeding journals to publish that...tends to make it hard to believe it is anything but dreck even if it did address the question you were asked.

Toto:
as you're so certain, you surely have no problem giving year-by-year statistics?

How many children were injected with a flu vaccine? How many of those flu vaccines for children contained thimerosal?

A link to an excel sheet will suffice, if you don't want to risk mangling the readability by copy-pasting it in the comments.

"What is your evidence that 1 in 48 boys cannot excrete thimerosal?" I didn't say that.

Here was my exact quote:
"What about the 1 in 48 boys that can’t excrete it due to other complications such as mitochondrial difference?"

The evidence is obviously Dr. Deth's research paper.
Duh.
Ethyl mercury is directly linked to "autism".
Autism is a made up name for mercury poisoning.
"Autism" is not scientifically diagnosed. It is merely a description of specific behaviors listed in a psychiatry manual.

This is a test to see if this is being censored.

Three links or more = moderation queue, Dennis.

KayMarie

He states that it was published (this is just the white paper). I believe he said it was sent to U.C. Davis.
I have a novel idea. Why don't you peer review it? It has become such a corrupt system any way. Did you know that there are now "peer review RINGS of FRAUD" ?

"Scholarly journal retracts 60 articles, smashes ‘peer review ring’"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/10/scholarly-…

I didn’t say that.

What about the 1 in 48 boys that can’t excrete it due to other complications such as mitochondrial difference?

Good lord you're stupid.

“Autism” is not scientifically diagnosed. It is merely a description of specific behaviors listed in a psychiatry manual.

Beyond stupid. Have you ever even met anyone on the spectrum?

“What is your evidence that 1 in 48 boys cannot excrete thimerosal?” I didn’t say that.

Here was my exact quote:
“What about the 1 in 48 boys that can’t excrete it due to other complications such as mitochondrial difference?” emphasis added

The evidence is obviously Dr. Deth’s research paper.

Then your evidence is sorely lacking. One research paper, which - please help me out here - demonstrates all cases of autism are caused by failure to excrete thimerosal how? and where?

blockquote fail above.

"The evidence is obviously Dr. Deth's research paper." should be part of the quote.

@JGC:

Note at the time thimerosal was removed only 2% of US vaccine stocks contained thimerosal as a preservative.

You may be off by a year (or less). Thimerosal is cited, e.g., here as having been removed in 2001. The 2% figure goes to February 2002.

“However, research since then has shown that ethylmercury is considerably less toxic than methylmercury as it is more rapidly and more completely excreted and less of if gets into the brain.”

This is the research I want to see. Can you cite it?

Do you have some disability that prevents you from using PubMed? Here are a few post -1999 studies i.e. since it was decided to remove thimerosal from most vaccines:

Neurotoxic character of thimerosal and the allometric extrapolation of adult clearance half-time to infants. Magos L. J Appl Toxicol. 2003 Jul-Aug;23(4):263-9.

The evidence for the safety of thiomersal in newborn and infant vaccines. Clements CJ. Vaccine. 2004 May 7;22(15-16):1854-61.

Mercury concentrations in brain and kidney following ethylmercury, methylmercury and Thimerosal administration to neonatal mice. Harry GJ, Harris MW, Burka LT. Toxicol Lett. 2004 Dec 30;154(3):183-9.

Comparison of blood and brain mercury levels in infant monkeys exposed to methylmercury or vaccines containing thimerosal. Burbacher TM, Shen DD, Liberato N, Grant KS, Cernichiari E, Clarkson T. Environ Health Perspect. 2005 Aug;113(8):1015-21.

Comparison of organic and inorganic mercury distribution in suckling rat. Orct T, Blanusa M, Lazarus M, Varnai VM, Kostial K. J Appl Toxicol. 2006 Nov-Dec;26(6):536-9.

Mechanisms of mercury disposition in the body. Clarkson TW, Vyas JB, Ballatori N. Am J Ind Med. 2007 Oct;50(10):757-64. Review.

Low-level neonatal thimerosal exposure: further evaluation of altered neurotoxic potential in SJL mice. Berman RF, Pessah IN, Mouton PR, Mav D, Harry J. Toxicol Sci. 2008 Feb;101(2):294-309.

Identification and distribution of mercury species in rat tissues following administration of thimerosal or methylmercury. Rodrigues JL, Serpeloni JM, Batista BL, Souza SS, Barbosa F Jr. Arch Toxicol. 2010 Nov;84(11):891-6. doi: 10.1007/s00204-010-0538-4..

Integrating experimental (in vitro and in vivo) neurotoxicity studies of low-dose thimerosal relevant to vaccines. Dórea JG. Neurochem Res. 2011 Jun;36(6):927-38. doi: 10.1007/s11064-011-0427-0.

Mercury disposition in suckling rats: comparative assessment following parenteral exposure to thiomersal and mercuric chloride. Blanuša M, Orct T, Vihnanek Lazarus M, Sekovanić A, Piasek M. J Biomed Biotechnol. 2012;2012:256965. doi: 10.1155/2012/256965.

Low-dose mercury exposure in early life: relevance of thimerosal to fetuses, newborns and infants. Dórea JG. Curr Med Chem. 2013;20(32):4060-9.

Mercury toxicity and neurodegenerative effects. Carocci A, Rovito N, Sinicropi MS, Genchi G. Rev Environ Contam Toxicol. 2014;229:1-18. doi: 10.1007/978-3-319-03777-6_1. Review.

A systematic study of the disposition and metabolism of mercury species in mice after exposure to low levels of thimerosal (ethylmercury). Carneiro MF, Oliveira Souza JM, Grotto D, Batista BL, de Oliveira Souza VC, Barbosa F Jr. Environ Res. 2014 Aug 27;134C:218-227. doi: 10.1016/j.envres.2014.07.009.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

How could I forget Pichichero?

Mercury levels in newborns and infants after receipt of thimerosal-containing vaccines. Pichichero ME, Gentile A, Giglio N, Umido V, Clarkson T, Cernichiari E, Zareba G, Gotelli C, Gotelli M, Yan L, Treanor J. Pediatrics. 2008 Feb;121(2):e208-14. doi: 10.1542/peds.2006-3363.

Mercury concentrations and metabolism in infants receiving vaccines containing thiomersal: a descriptive study. Pichichero ME, Cernichiari E, Lopreiato J, Treanor J. Lancet. 2002 Nov 30;360(9347):1737-41.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

"Are you claiming all boys with autism have a “mitochondrial difference”?

"Evidence of reactive oxygen species-mediated damage to mitochondrial DNA in children with typical autism."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23347615

U.C. Davis put out this research. I called one of the researchers and she confirmed that ALL of the children in the study had received their scheduled vaccinations. She does NOT plan to do a followup study on autistic children who have not been vaccinated. Her study seems to complement Dr. Deth's.

Again, autism is a nebulous term that is not scientifically diagnosed. It is merely a description of certain behaviors listed in a psychiatry manual. Because of its loose definition, one COULD say that the 1 in 48 diagnosis is due to a mitochondrial difference + Thimerosal poisoning. The research indicates that the first prevents efficient secretion of the second, resulting in damage. The brain and organ damage results in the behavior now called autism. That is my point of view based on the work of these experts.

@NORAD

This one has been tried repeatedly, tutu. How anybody figures that this constitutes an insult escapes me.

I'd cut you a break and say that it's not as easy as it seems, but given the, ah, proclivities that you've already put on display, you really have no excuse for failing to jump straight to "GAYRAD."

@Krebiozen
Thanks for the data dump. Are these available to read for free at PubMed? Remember, I am not a medical professional. I can't afford to pay for these sites. Could you do some pull quotes to defend your position?
Also, I noticed that none of these articles were published before 2003. This is significant. The Simpsonwood doc. indicated that the researchers knew of NO research on Thimerosal safety in human babies, yet they had gone ahead and implemented the radical new vaccine schedule beginning in 1986. We begin to see the results of this in the CDC autism rate data. In 1993, the autism growth rate had increased 23%. Each year it increased until it reached 1300%+ in 2006! This is why in 2004, Thompson feared facing angry groups of parents with autistic children, and wanted to remove the explosive African- American data. The statistics do not happen in a vacuum. Something was obviously going on.

Toto,

Ethyl mercury is directly linked to “autism”.

If that were true, why wasn't there an epidemic of autism back when people were liberally slathering their children's cuts and grazes with merthioloate tinctures and ointments? These contained at least 0.1% thimerosal, which means that even a single drop contained more than a flu vaccine. People did suffer mercury poisoning from absorbing thimerosal from this medicine, but the symptoms did not resemble autism.

Adverse Effects (1%) Skin: Itching erythema, papular or vesicular eruptions. Body as a Whole: Mercury poisoning with prolonged use (metallic taste, salivation, stomatitis, lethargy, peripheral neuropathy).

Moving on....

Autism is a made up name for mercury poisoning.

Here are the symptoms of organic mercury poisoning:

walking difficulty, muscle pains, vomiting, and dysarthria. Neurologilcal examination showed walking disability, weakness of the limbs, general hypotonia, horizontal nystagmus, deglutition impairment, severe ataxia, and increased tendon reflexes.

Here are the symptoms of autism (from Wikipedia, which is as good a source as any):

It is distinguished not by a single symptom, but by a characteristic triad of symptoms: impairments in social interaction; impairments in communication; and restricted interests and repetitive behavior. [...]

An estimated 0.5% to 10% of individuals with ASD show unusual abilities, ranging from splinter skills such as the memorization of trivia to the extraordinarily rare talents of prodigious autistic savants. Many individuals with ASD show superior skills in perception and attention, relative to the general population. Sensory abnormalities are found in over 90% of those with autism, and are considered core features by some, although there is no good evidence that sensory symptoms differentiate autism from other developmental disorders. Differences are greater for under-responsivity (for example, walking into things) than for over-responsivity (for example, distress from loud noises) or for sensation seeking (for example, rhythmic movements). An estimated 60%–80% of autistic people have motor signs that include poor muscle tone, poor motor planning, and toe walking; deficits in motor coordination are pervasive across ASD and are greater in autism proper.

What makes you think that there is any relationship between the two conditions? They seem entirely different to me. Autism seems to be characterized by the presence of extra brain material, and results in superior skills in many individuals. How could methylmercury poisoning possibly do that?

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

Thanks for the data dump.

Data dump? You asked for citations and I gave you citations.

Also, I noticed that none of these articles were published before 2003. This is significant.

It is significant because, as I explained, I deliberately chose later studies because this is the evidence that we didn't have in 1999 when it was decided to remove thimerosal from most vaccines. If we had had that evidence then thimerosal would very probably not have been removed from vaccines, because it has been show to be safe.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

This is the research I want to see. Can you cite it?>/blockquote>

I suggest you start with "Mercury Levels in Newborns and Infants After Receipt of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines, Pichichero et al, Pediatrics Vol. 121 No. 2 February 1, 2008 pp. e208 -e214", and Burbacher's animal model "Comparison of blood and brain mercury levels in infant monkeys exposed to methylmercury or vaccines containing thimerosal" Burbacher TM1, Shen DD, Liberato N, Grant KS, Cernichiari E, Clarkson T., Environ Health Perspect. 2005 Aug;113(8):1015-21.)

Getting stupider and stupider. Toto doesn't even seem to realize that it's own citation on "mitochondrial differences" has nothing to do with the kinds of 'differences' it proposes causes thimerosal excretion problems. Instead, the study looks at mtDNA mutations that result from ROS damage, nearly all of which occur in the function-free, noncoding part of the mt genome.

Question for you, Toto: where exactly in the mitochrondrial genome are the 'differences' that lead to the inability to excrete thimerosal? genomic coordinates relative to rCRS NC_012920 are preferred.

Autism is a made up name for mercury poisoning.

That's one thing autism is demonstrably not: the diagnostic criteria for autism and mercury poisoning are completely different.

Are these available to read for free at PubMed? Remember, I am not a medical professional. I can’t afford to pay for these sites. Could you do some pull quotes to defend your position?

Sorry, I don't currently have institutional access to journals, but many are available as free full text. As you aren't a medical professional and clearly have very little knowledge and understanding of this subject, perhaps you shouldn't be going around spreading such risible nonsense about it. Just a thought.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

Because of its loose definition, one COULD say that the 1 in 48 diagnosis is due to a mitochondrial difference + Thimerosal poisoning.

Only if one had actual evidence demonstrating it was due to a mitochondrial difference + thimerosal poisoning.

So...got any?

The Simpsonwood doc. indicated that the researchers knew of NO research on Thimerosal safety in human babies, yet they had gone ahead and implemented the radical new vaccine schedule beginning in 1986. We begin to see the results of this in the CDC autism rate data

Citation needed, toto: your evidence demonstrating that the increase in theincidence of autism diagnoses was caused by the implementation of the new schedule in 1986 would be...what, exactly?

The entire early vaccine schedule unleashes many foreign entities into the babies body. Mercury damage will change with age of exposure. Children will detox themselves at different rates. Some more, some less, some not at all. Because of this, the child's immune system may be weakened. They may have varying reactions to the antigens themselves. The gut can become inflamed and cause absorption deficiencies. This creates a whole new cascade of symptoms. Some children may also acquire the diseases in their vaccine because of their weakened state. This can set up chronic health problems. The researchers at the Simpsonwood meeting were looking at MULTIPLE neurodegenerate conditions as anticipated problems from elevated Thymerosal exposure. This is very telling of what they knew back in 2000. They NEVER considered that autism would be the only outcome. They even included ADHD, as does Dr. Deth. The resulting condition is better described as a syndrome. I know personally, because together, all four of my sons have a majority of the conditions they were looking at. Their birth dates were 1987, 1996, 1997, and 2000. THE AGE OF AUTISM. They each had the NEW full schedule vaccines, mostly on time. None of the coverup crap you have been spewing has the slightest effect on me. I LIVE IT EVERYDAY. I hope those nice former Merck scientists HAVE THEIR DAY IN COURT! I look forward to ALL of the revelations of William Thompson. Dr. Hooker has been recording him for 9 months. He must have stories to tell. Regardless, all of you will stand before the White Throne of Judgement one day. I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.

Good day!

And, confronted with too much reality, Toto retreats to Oz.
Stay on your side of the rainbow next time, cupcake.

Toto: How many weasel words can you count in a single paragraph?

all of you will stand before the White Throne of Judgement one day. I wouldn’t want to be in your shoes.

Good day!

So I take it you're not going to be answering any questions?

Toto has been a trip - been a long time since we've seen someone so delusional - even gives Mr. Best a run for his money (in the same ballpark as least).

@Dam-GEEEEEE!
Really? I am the customer. I have many connections. When I talk, parents listen. The tide is rising. You cannot stop us from telling one another the truth about your witches' brew. My children are living proof. You cannot stop their testimony. You may as well make a bonfire with your fraudulent "studies". The Truth is coming. You cannot stop it.

Uh, "Toto." Knock it off with the "God" sock puppet.

I haven't let any of your posts of Biblical quotes under the 'nym "God" through because I do not allow sock puppets and when I see them I block them.

The entire early vaccine schedule unleashes many foreign entities into the babies body.

Did you have a point? A newborn is exposed to orders of magnitude more antigens in the first 15 minutes after delivery than it could ever be exposed to as a consequence of the most aggressive, comprehensive immunization schedule possible--what evidence suggest that exposure to a few more antigens as the result of vaccination is sufficient to somehow engender risk--or more accurately to engender greater risk than is associated with remaining vulnerable to the infectious diseases they protect against?

Mercury damage will change with age of exposure.

Given that you have offered exactly zero evidence that exposure to ethyl mercury at levels acheivable by routine vacination is harmful, I have to ask again: did you have a point?

Children will detox themselves at different rates. Some more, some less, some not at all. Because of this, the child’s immune system may be weakened.

CItations needed: your evidence that routine childhood vaccination, as a consequence of exposure to ethyl mercury from thimerosal perservatives or by any other mechanism, has been shown to weaken a child's immune system would be...what, exactly?

"They may have varying reactions to the antigens themselves. The gut can become inflamed and cause absorption deficiencies."

Citations needed.

"Some children may also acquire the diseases in their vaccine because of their weakened state."

Citations needed.

"The researchers at the Simpsonwood meeting were looking at MULTIPLE neurodegenerate conditions as anticipated problems from elevated Thymerosal exposure. This is very telling of what they knew back in 2000. They NEVER considered that autism would be the only outcome. They even included ADHD, as does Dr. Deth. "

and given that they also found no evidence of a causal association between thimerosal exposure as a consequence of routine vaccination and any developmental disorder-autism, ADHD, whatever--I ask again: did you have a point?

I know personally, because together, all four of my sons have a majority of the conditions they were looking at.

That stongly suggests a genetic component, wouldn't you agree?

Their birth dates were 1987, 1996, 1997, and 2000. THE AGE OF AUTISM. They each had the NEW full schedule vaccines, mostly on time.

As did literally orders of magnitude more children born in those same year, who did not develop autism or other developmental disorders.

None of the coverup crap you have been spewing has the slightest effect on me.

I.e., "That evidence doesn't count. Because I said so."

I LIVE IT EVERYDAY.

Your circumstances aren't evidence in support of your claims.

"I hope those nice former Merck scientists HAVE THEIR DAY IN COURT!"

I'd say the NVICP Omnibus Autism Hearngs were their day in court, and they were roundly acquitted of anything resembling wrongdoing.

I look forward to ALL of the revelations of William Thompson. Dr. Hooker has been recording him for 9 months. He must have stories to tell.

I'm sure we can look forward to more statements and press releases that similarly fail to demonstrate any kind of cover-up occurred, orto link vaccination to the development of autism spectrum disorders, in the days to come.

Sigh...lot of borked blockquotes--still, I'm sure you get the gist.

I am the customer.

Of pediatric vaccines? Not anymore, based on your sons' ages.

I have many connections.

Not many of them are synaptic, it seems.

When I talk, parents listen.

Based on this thread, I question your ability to evaluate whether others are actually listening to you.

The tide is rising. You cannot stop us from telling one another the truth about your witches’ brew.

I agree, this whole whistleblower brouhaha has really revealed that all that's really left is you hardcore loons talking to each other.

My children are living proof. You cannot stop their testimony.

Science is not decided by testimony. Are you able to tell us exactly what mitochondrial differences in your children caused whatever it is you think makes them 'living proof'?

You may as well make a bonfire with your fraudulent “studies”.

So does that include the UC Davis study you cited, or is it not fraudulent because you think it supports your ass-backwards theory of autism causation (it doesn't)? Do you have any criteria for identifying a fraudulent study other than "reaches a conclusion I disagree with"?

The Truth is coming. You cannot stop it.

It is very telling that you speak of capital-T Truth. Your belief that vaccines cause autism is clearly irrational in that no amount of evidence could convince you otherwise. I hope you enjoy the company of birthers, truthers, and moon landing conspiracy theorists!

Alas! Our guest has done the impossible- spurred on my conscience which I had believed to be dead and buried long ago. Like Thompson, I feel I must confess after all of these years of hiding the truth... or else place my very soul in jeopardy.

I shall presently reveal what all of us are paid for our work here @ RI. I'll sleep so much easier... finally.
There I go, thinking about myself again and abandoning my colleagues to the winds of change whistling through the vast caverns of the internet which is experiencing paradigm shift on a grand scale this momentous week.

Please, please forgive me, brothers and sisters: you too may feel the stirrings of conscience yourself some day.

Orac pays us in GBP because he originated in the UK and it sounds better than USD or AUD. He also hates euros. Don't we all!

We are each paid by the word at rates the significance of which is only known to our paymaster and his own benefactor, our lord and master You-know-who.
So here we go:

@ 1.19 per word:
kruuth, gaist, AdamG, BobG, Thomas, doug
@ 1.21 per word:
squirrelelite, LW, NH Primary Care, Flip, ChrisP, Julian
@ 1.23 per word:
Eric, Gray Falcon, Todd W, Lawrence, herr doktor
@ 1.24 per word:
Bacon, Antaeus, Narad, Kreb

@ 1.22 per word:
Liz, Vicki, PGP, Calli, lilady, Science Mom, Chris, Shay, Kay Marie, Rebecca and yours truly

I am terribly ashamed of having been a paid shill for Pharmatocracy for so many years and having enjoyed an extravagant, decadent lifestyle amongst my many similarly morally conpromised fellow and sister minions. Lord forgive us all our errant ways.

Don't think that my list is complete-
there are Others. I'll leave it our critics to figure out who they are and what they do.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

@ 1.24 per word:
@ 1.22 per word:

Someday we'll have equality in the Pharma Shill workplace!

Well, Toto has been amusing. I am not sure when I last saw so much deranged bilge written on a website.

I noticed that when the facts were laid out carefully and started leading Toto away from their conspiracy theories, they reverted back to MMR contains thiomersal and from there to some of the behaviour that was so reminiscent of Greg.

It has been fun, but it is now boring and lurkers won't bother getting to the bottom of this thread, as they will have lost the will to live well before this.

Did he ever manage to publish that anywhere or is it just on anti-vaxx sites. I mean someone with those initials seems capable of publishing other articles that make me think it is the same guy, but if he can’t even get the bottom feeding journals to publish that…tends to make it hard to believe it is anything but dreck even if it did address the question you were asked.

Nope, not peer-reviewed nor published but you probably suspected that. Additionally, Deth is a regular on the anti-vaxx, vaccinesdidit circuit and an "expert" at the OAP. Need I say more?

By Science Mom (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

Denice #332, you left out lilady, Dorit, and the person whom Dan Olmsted refers to as "the execrable Matt Carey." Coincidence? I think not!

Regardless, all of you will stand before the White Throne of Judgement [sic] one day. I wouldn’t want to be in your shoes.

Sheesh, we could have had a theological cage-match.

Someday we’ll have equality in the Pharma Shill workplace!

Last I checked, I couldn't even afford the dues to join the IWW.

@ Anne:

lilady is on the 1.22 list whilst you, Dorit, Matt, Ren and some _other people_ are not.
As I said previously, "There are Others".

-btw- I think I'll now call myself 'Laxmi' - it's so much more spiritual-sounding than DW. I have a book deal with Skyhorse. Stay tuned!

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

"You may as well make a bonfire with your fraudulent “studies”."

I notice a lot of antivaxxers fantasize about destroying all the evidence that shows that they're wrong. It would make a big bonfire. Of course if they could prove the studies were fraudulent, they wouldn't need to be wannabe book-burners.

Ah well, while Toto is pretending, parents who use their actual names, like Matt, Kathleen, and Ken are actually helping autistic people, instead of making up stories about them.

"You may as well make a bonfire with your fraudulent “studies”."

I notice a lot of antivaxxers fantasize about destroying all the evidence that shows that they're wrong. It would make a big bonfire. Of course if they could prove the studies were fraudulent, they wouldn't need to be wannabe book-burners.

Ah well, while Toto is pretending, parents who use their actual names, like Matt, Kathleen, and Ken are actually helping autistic people, instead of making up stories about them.

It was interesting to see Toto hammering on the business of the "stockpiles" and the dates thereof. It had the ring of matter of personal interest, and lo and behold ...
I'm cynical enough to believe that YoDad's professed concern with kids in developing nations was a similar sort of ploy. If anyone were to "confess" that thimerosal (lord, I wish the much more apt thiomersal name was used) should be removed from vaccines for all nations, it would become a confession of past liability everywhere.

I thought pharmashills were paid in pieces of silver, 30 pieces at a time, for a number of words dependent on the verishillmilitude of said words.

My check seems to have gotten lost somewhere (I suspect the rate is in Hong Kong rather than U.S. dollars, and the money may have been sent to my last Kowloon address), but I will trust in our extraterrestrial overlords.

Doug-

Note that DW gave the rate in GBP. Wiki notes that-

...silver coins known as "sterlings" were issued in the Saxon kingdoms, 240 of them being minted from a pound of silver... Hence, large payments came to be reckoned in "pounds of sterlings," a phrase later shortened...

—Encyclopedia Brittanica, entry "pound sterling"

So, at £1.22 per word, she gets 292.8 pieces of silver per word.

I get a rock.

@ Denice Walter -- You get paid by the word??

We used to DREAM of getting paid by the word! I had to get up out of the server at 10:30 at night, 'alf an hour before I went to bed, eat a 'andful of cold ground-up Geier studies, PAY Orac for the privilege to post a few words, and when I got 'ome my dad would slice me in two with an 8x10 glossy of Wakefield.

By Scottynuke (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

@ Johnny:
@ Scottynuke:

Mssrs:
You fellows ( and palindrom) should not exactly carp loudly about what shills are paid.
since you are amongst the OTHERS of whom I refer to so cautiously because.....
you know. Need I say more?

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

Shills and minions also get paid to get our flu shots.

No, wait, that's anyone who gets one at a Safeway in Washington, and the shots are 100% covered by insurance because of Obamacare. And what I get is a discount on one order of groceries.

Mostly, what I got was the vaccine and a brightly colored information sheet, with links to CDC and VAERS and all.

Just a little off topic, but we all know what Denice always says...

Mike Adams has really gone off the deep end. Today he compares the ISIS beheading videos to watching a child get vaccinated:

"Why on Earth would I want to see the violent act of someone's head being cut off? It's bad enough seeing videos of children being vaccinated with toxic vaccines laced with brain damaging mercury. Our world doesn't need more violence. Vaccine violence, pesticide violence and medical violence against our children is already too much to bear."

By Woo Fighter (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

Toto: Just in case you come back, I want this on record; ADD and ADHD are not signs of damage and should not be lumped in with autism. I know lots of people with ADD and ADHD, and even the dumbest of them was much more intelligent than you could ever hope to be.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

Because of its loose definition, one COULD say that the 1 in 48 diagnosis is due to a mitochondrial difference + Thimerosal poisoning.

One could also say "Hatrack calenture fishspoon" and make about as much sense.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

@ 1.23 per word:
Takes a lot of words to buy a Pharmapint!

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 05 Sep 2014 #permalink

None of the coverup crap you have been spewing has the slightest effect on me. I LIVE IT EVERYDAY. I hope those nice former Merck scientists HAVE THEIR DAY IN COURT!

Speaking of which, D'ohlmsted has a typically information-barren update on Krahling & Wlochowski in the latest "From the Editor" that he's manage to arse himself to generate:

"Latest: Whistleblower suit against Merck for faking data sailed through to discovery phase. Judge rejected Merck motion to dismiss; threw out parts of related suit not brought by whistleblowers. -0-"

Somewhat closer to the mark would be "after two years, they have managed to establish that they have actually stated a claim."

T:Oh, please. We've seen it and discounted it. If Mr. Rappaport said water is wet, I'd doubt it- he's unreliable and will make anything up.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 06 Sep 2014 #permalink

@ Woo Fighter:

Ha ha. I frequently find incredibly hilarious headlines there - did you see the one about the drought?

- as background- both he and his PRN counterpart loon tell their entranced audiences that people need to desert the cities - especially in California- because the end times are upon us: drought, fires, floods, earthquakes, gang warfare, food shortages, power failures, nuclear meltdowns ( only the latter predicts rising oceans)- you name it- it's on its way to destroy you. A mass exodus of city dwelling refugees escaping towards rural inland places has already begun.

Mike repeats what he's said recently - real estate in CA will collapse, people will be moving out in desperation..
people just aren't AWARE yet.

Because someone gave one of my cohorts a similar line of crap about cities and real estate, I did a little searching about US realtors' predictions concerning markets in the next decade and guess what? Six of the ten hot markets in the US are in CA- others include the bucolic villages of Portland, Seattle, Boston and NY.

I guess the realtors' haven't got the word on what's up yet.

Which brings me to..................

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 06 Sep 2014 #permalink

ANYONE can say ANYTHING on the internet:
doesn't mean it's true

Alt media entrepreneurs and anti-vax thinking moms can write up a storm about vaccines, toxins and governmental scullduggery : they can ( and do) say anything they like.

Even Orac -or his minions- can say that they are employed by the Giant Pharma Lizards (tm) or that they are paid by the word. Doesn't mean it's true.

Saying something and providing meaningful evidence and DATA from multiple reliable sources which stand up to scientific scrutiny are two entirely different things.

People on the 'net acquire a reputation for being either reality or whimsy-based. Sites like Natural News, AoA ,TMR and PRN's various projects shouldn't inspire confidence in the veracity of their reportage: it's called 'alternative' for a reason because it represents an alternative reality.

A barely-educated scam artist who purports to be 'ahead of the curve' about health, finance and trends should be ridiculed not followed. At the depths of the 2009 recession these idiots were telling people to sell stocks ( at lows), take their money out of banks and buy precious metals and land.

I wonder how that advice panned out?

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 06 Sep 2014 #permalink

Thanks for the kudo @Denice Walter!

Since I passed my big exam yesterday, maybe I'll have time to earn more lucre.

I guess Toto is moderately interesting for a while, but I've stopped holding my breath waiting for something resembling a coherent argument.

ttfn

By squirrelelite (not verified) on 06 Sep 2014 #permalink

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For those who can’t read, click on the embedded link to the video. It as produced by Dr. Wakefield and Dr. Hooker.
It is a phone recording of Dr. William Thompson speaking to Dr. Hooker. He clearly indicates that “THIMEROSAL CAUSES AUTISM-LIKE FEATURES”

“THIMEROSAL CAUSES TICS”

For those born at least 1987-2000, LET THE LAWSUITS BEGIN!

Toto, while we wait for the tide of lawsuits are you going to answer any of the questions directed at you?

Meet Dr. Orenstein, the CDC employee who called and attended the Simpsonwood meeting and oversaw the implementation of the new vaccine schedule:

"Walter A. Orenstein, MD, DSc (Hon) is Associate Director of the Emory Vaccine Center and Professor of Medicine, Pediatrics, and Global Health at Emory University. Dr. Orenstein has had a long and distinguished career at Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), Emory University, and the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation (BMGF). Dr. Orenstein began his career in the Epidemic Intelligence Service (EIS) of the CDC, focusing on immunization, particularly on smallpox eradication and measles elimination. Between 1988 and 2004, he was Director of the United States Immunization Program rising to become an Assistant Surgeon General of the United States Public Health Service. During Dr. Orenstein’s tenure at the CDC, record high levels of immunization coverage among children were reached and indigenous transmission of measles and rubella was eliminated. Multiple new vaccines were introduced into the childhood immunization schedule. From 2004-2008, Dr. Orenstein was Associate Director of the Emory Vaccine Program with a major focus on policy issues related to influenza vaccination in the United States. In 2008, he left Emory University to become the Deputy Director for Immunization Programs at the BMGF, in charge of a large portfolio ranging from implementation of polio eradication activities to basic research on improved vaccines and diagnostics. Polio eradication was the number one priority of the BMGF."
http://vaccines.emory.edu/faculty/orenstein_walter.html

WHY ISN'T ATLANTA ON THIS TOP LIST?
Are we just an EBOLA DUMPING GROUND?
Is there NO BENEFIT for having the CDC in your back yard??????

Report Ranks Cities' Ability to Distribute Countermeasures Following Bioterror Attack
"New York City was judged the most prepared with an average score of 99.6, followed by Dover, Del. with an average score of 97.6 and Chicago with a score of 97.3."

"The business publication calculated the average of the three scores given to high-density Metropolitan Statistical Areas since 2007 under the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's Cities Readiness Initiative. Cities with 69 or more points were judged to have developed adequate protocols to receive and pass out countermeasures such as vaccines and antibiotics."
http://www.nti.org/gsn/article/report-ranks-cities-ability-distribute-c…

WHY ISN’T ATLANTA ON THIS TOP LIST?
Are we just an EBOLA DUMPING GROUND?
Is there NO BENEFIT for having the CDC in your back yard??????

Last I checked, the CDC wasn't a branch of the Atlanta municipal government. Maybe you could take it up with them when you get around to this:

I plan to drive over to the CDC and ask Dr. Thompson myself.
I certainly won’t post the results for free on this blog.

BTW, I don't think you're likely to find Internet connectivity in a holding cell anyway.

Toto - don't you have any interest in the truth about this? None of the evidence people have presented here seems to have penetrated your skull. You keep repeating the same nonsense even though people have shown it to be wrong. Why?

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 06 Sep 2014 #permalink

Well, Narad; Not unless one is interested in BPL protocol aka Broadband over Power Lines which is a format the slow screws haven't figured out why their sports radio sounds like Elizabeth Cohen...

@Toto - wow, total Godwin bingo there, you really are a total fruitcake, aren't you?

I guess Toto is moderately interesting for a while

I am concerned about the strategic reserves of capital letters running dry.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 06 Sep 2014 #permalink

I certainly won’t post the results for free on this blog.

As opposed to being paid beejillions of dollars to publish somewhere else?

By Science Mom (not verified) on 06 Sep 2014 #permalink

"Cities with 69 or more points were judged to have developed adequate protocols to receive and pass out countermeasures such as vaccines and antibiotics.”

BUT WHAT IF THE CDC SCREWS UP? What if their viral nasties get out? This must be a plot......

CDC Lab Incident: Anthrax, June 2014
Update: July 19, 2014
http://www.cdc.gov/anthrax/news-multimedia/lab-incident/

CDC Laboratory Incident: Timeline of major events
http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2014/p0711-lab-safety-infographic.html

CDC reports detail lapses in deadly flu cross-contamination
By Jacque Wilson, CNN
updated 1:09 PM EDT, Fri August 15, 2014
http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/15/health/cdc-report-h5n1-incident/

I GUESS THIS IS ONE WAY TO GET FLU VAX SALES UP!
NORAD! SAVE ATLANTA FROM THESE MAD SCIENTISTS!
Use your power!

SHOCK: Obama Forming “Hitler Youth” Under Common Core

Video brought to you by a division of WorldNutDaily's Joe Farah disinformation-operative empire, which will also sell you the specific date of the Second Coming for $4.95:

[www].rightwingwatch.org/content/you-can-learn-exact-day-christs-return-if-you-give-5-worldnetdaily

I was just idly looking through Thompson et al's 2012 paper that reanalyzed data on thimerosal and tics (among other neurodevelopmental measures). The paper found a small but statistically significant association between thimerosal exposure and tics.

Looking at the numbers, I found it odd that 12% of the boys they assessed had motor tics observed during the course of the assessment. However, "positive presence of tics from the parent report of tics in the past week and the assessor report of tics agreed only 23% of the time for motor tics". That's a big discrepancy.

I also found it odd that Tozzi et al (2009) found motor tics in only 4.2% of male children also during a face-to-face assessment. Looking at another source, a Swedish study (PMID: 12729145) found that "6.6% of 7- to 15-year-old children currently had or had experienced some kind tic disorder during the last year".

Tozzi et al found no association between thimerosal and tics, and since this was a randomized prospective study, I think the results are more reliable. Retrospective studies are vulnerable to all sorts of confounders, unless all the data is available as in that Madsen MMR study. Thompson,like Verstraeten before him, had to rummage through incomplete records trying to estimate the thimerosal exposure, and recruitment was a problem:

Recruitment for Thompson et al.’s (2007) study was attempted for 3,648 children, of which, 1,985 refused or were unable to be located, 512 were deemed ineligible and 44 were unable to be assessed.

That's a lot of refusals and lost subjects, with possible confounding factors - would parents of children with neurodevelopmental problems be more or less willing to participate, or move away from the area?

Anyway, back to the motor tics. Why did Thompson et al find twice as many male children with motor tics as Tozzi? Tics aren't like autism, they are pretty obvious to a trained observer.

Something is wrong here. To be fair, Thompson et al did conclude:

This finding should be interpreted with caution due to limitations in the measurement of tics and the limited biological plausibility regarding a causal relationship.

It seems that Thompson has changed his mind about this.

Could it be that in Thompson et al:

Trained interviewers assessed tics by recording whether motor or phonic tics were present at any point during the 3-hr assessment period. The interviewers received verbal instruction and viewed a 30-min training video (“Tourette Syndrome: A Guide to Diagnosis of TS,” 1989).

Tozzi et al used trained psychologists, who might be expected to make a more accurate assessment than people who had merely watched a 30 minute video by way of training.

Interestingly Tozzi also reported:

We detected, through the telephone interviews with parents and reviews of medical charts, 1 case of autism among the 856 children in the lower thimerosal intake group and no cases among the 848 children in the higher thimerosal intake group.

It seems that the prevalence of diagnosed autism is considerably lower in Italy than it is in the US. t thought that the zero cases of autism among those given higher amounts of thimerosal was interesting. The likes of Toto seem to think that exposure to these levels of thimerosal inevitably result in autism.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 06 Sep 2014 #permalink

Sorry, that's 3 times as many tics reported by Thompson et al as compared with Tozzi, twice as many as the Swedish study.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 06 Sep 2014 #permalink

SHOCK: Obama Forming “Hitler Youth” Under Common Core

Stupid, credulous and trolling for attention is no way to go through life.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 06 Sep 2014 #permalink

Toto, all this 'Hitler Youth' stuff is boring. I think we have managed to explain in great detail here why there is no connection between thimerosal or MMR and autism.

If you are at all interested I could link to some work showing what is related to autism. But then again, you are probably not interested in genetics.

WITH APOLOGIES TO EMMA L.

The New PHOENIX

JUST like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our RED CLAY-washed, HUMID gates shall stand
A mighty SNAKE with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and HIS name
SCREWTAPE. From HIS bacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; HIS FIREY eyes command
The air-TRAFFIC CONTROL TOWERS that HEARTSFIELD frame.
"Keep AFRICAN lands, your storied pomp!" cries he
With silent lips. "Give me your POOR and your poor,
Your huddled LIBERIANS yearning to EAT free,
The wretched EBOLA of your teeming shore.
Send these, the ANTHRAX, H!N1t to THE CDC,
I lift my VACCINES besid the golden BANK door!"

@KREEPY OZONE

I can tell you get paid by the word. Because you are a frienemy, I'll give you this graphic artist's insider tip:
http://www.lipsum.com
Just use this every post and you'll be rolling in the dough WITH HOURS TO SPARE. No one will be the wiser.

Snakes have hands? Snakes have bacon-hands? What's a bacon-hand? Is that like ham-handed only cooked differently? How do the POOR differ from the poor who are separately invited?

Enquiring minds want to know.

A mighty SNAKE with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and HIS name
SCREWTAPE.

So you're a confederate of Scalia, author of Bruesewitz, eh? Very interesting.

I can tell you get paid by the word.

True, but it's by the number of words I can provoke antivaccine fanatics into posting here. Thanks to you and YoDaddie (and Lord Draconis' benevolence, of course) I can take an extra vacation this year - thanks!

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 06 Sep 2014 #permalink

@LeWd

It's poetry. That is why you can't understand it.
Everyone in Atlanta gets the bacon reference.

'4 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:"

It sounds like the serpent was vertical at one time. Poetic license gives him hands.

"Poor, poor" = emphasis, auditory rhythm

@Kreepy Ozone
"True, but it’s by the number of words I can provoke antivaccine fanatics into posting here. Thanks to you and YoDaddie (and Lord Draconis’ benevolence, of course) I can take an extra vacation this year – thanks!"

OMG!
I have an amazing business offer. Do the VAXXERS read the words you claim for payment? After all, they do owe my family MILLIONS for the pain and suffering they have caused my sons. (see Hannah Poling http://vran.org/in-the-news/the-hannah-poling-case-the-us-government-co… )
What if I just posted lots of "Greeking" and you sent me a "cut" of the profits through PAY PAL? This would be morally just. My older son could use some money to help cover his meds, taken as A RESULT OF THIMEROSAL POISONING. It's the least you could do.

It’s poetry. That is why you can’t understand it.

No, I think the problem is that it's incomprehensibly stupid.

Everyone in Atlanta gets the bacon reference.

I would urge you to immediately stand on a street corner demanding that people read it and then report back on how many people "get it."

“Poor, poor” = emphasis, auditory rhythm

"Auditory rhythm"? You completely screwed up the meter, just as you did all the way through. You're simply not good at this.

After all, they do owe my family MILLIONS for the pain and suffering they have caused my sons.

You give off a pretty strong impression that the only reason they'd be seeking another defendant is that you're judgment-proof.

It's stupid. That's why I can't understand it. It doesn't even scan properly.

Interestingly, the Polings only live about 30 minutes from my house.

This post should be worth $100 at least!

"The standard Lorem Ipsum passage, used since the 1500s"

"Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum."

Section 1.10.32 of "de Finibus Bonorum et Malorum", written by Cicero in 45 BC

"Sed ut perspiciatis unde omnis iste natus error sit voluptatem accusantium doloremque laudantium, totam rem aperiam, eaque ipsa quae ab illo inventore veritatis et quasi architecto beatae vitae dicta sunt explicabo. Nemo enim ipsam voluptatem quia voluptas sit aspernatur aut odit aut fugit, sed quia consequuntur magni dolores eos qui ratione voluptatem sequi nesciunt. Neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non numquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem. Ut enim ad minima veniam, quis nostrum exercitationem ullam corporis suscipit laboriosam, nisi ut aliquid ex ea commodi consequatur? Quis autem vel eum iure reprehenderit qui in ea voluptate velit esse quam nihil molestiae consequatur, vel illum qui dolorem eum fugiat quo voluptas nulla pariatur?"

1914 translation by H. Rackham

"But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure?"

Section 1.10.33 of "de Finibus Bonorum et Malorum", written by Cicero in 45 BC

"At vero eos et accusamus et iusto odio dignissimos ducimus qui blanditiis praesentium voluptatum deleniti atque corrupti quos dolores et quas molestias excepturi sint occaecati cupiditate non provident, similique sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollitia animi, id est laborum et dolorum fuga. Et harum quidem rerum facilis est et expedita distinctio. Nam libero tempore, cum soluta nobis est eligendi optio cumque nihil impedit quo minus id quod maxime placeat facere possimus, omnis voluptas assumenda est, omnis dolor repellendus. Temporibus autem quibusdam et aut officiis debitis aut rerum necessitatibus saepe eveniet ut et voluptates repudiandae sint et molestiae non recusandae. Itaque earum rerum hic tenetur a sapiente delectus, ut aut reiciendis voluptatibus maiores alias consequatur aut perferendis doloribus asperiores repellat."

1914 translation by H. Rackham

"On the other hand, we denounce with righteous indignation and dislike men who are so beguiled and demoralized by the charms of pleasure of the moment, so blinded by desire, that they cannot foresee the pain and trouble that are bound to ensue; and equal blame belongs to those who fail in their duty through weakness of will, which is the same as saying through shrinking from toil and pain. These cases are perfectly simple and easy to distinguish. In a free hour, when our power of choice is untrammelled and when nothing prevents our being able to do what we like best, every pleasure is to be welcomed and every pain avoided. But in certain circumstances and owing to the claims of duty or the obligations of business it will frequently occur that pleasures have to be repudiated and annoyances accepted. The wise man therefore always holds in these matters to this principle of selection: he rejects pleasures to secure other greater pleasures, or else he endures pains to avoid worse pains."

@ KREEPY OZONE

I anxiously await an answer to my offer. I have many friends. We could form an "anti-vaxxer poster ring" JUST LIKE that "PEER REVIEW" ring! But we can't get busted. We have done nothing wrong. IT'S CALLED JUSTICE. Give me an answer soon, or I'll take my words to A MORE PROFITABLE BLOG. Thanks.

Poor,stupid LeWd.
It just occurred to me that perhaps you were not aware of Emma Lazarus' poem written on the base of THE STATUE OF LIBERTY. Perhaps you understand parody?
http://www.libertystatepark.com/emma.htm

Yes, dear, I am well aware of that poem. Your "parody" is stupid and it also doesn't even scan.

@Kreepy Ozone
I grow weary of waiting for your answer.
Here is a dollar tip. Don't choke on the hotdog.

Bye

@LW
A poem just for you!

"The Final Solution"

FOR all who long and thirst amidst the rushing waters,
Drowning in Death's desire.
Crushing waters over mossy mica flecked stones ensnare us from lung-filling life.
The sand colored sky mocks and weighs our skin-clothed dwelling down, down to the Abyss.
Silent screams ripple upward, concentric circles in the cacophony of roaring waters.
Is there an ear to hear?

GIVE, do not lend me your ears, saith the blue-sky God.
I hear the sound of your fury, yet
Our still small voice will whisper congruent words of comfort (Truth).
Would you free also, your captive companions from that wretched water-grave?
Yet, you say the swirl of muddy waters occulted them from your gaze.
Now you see with Gulf-green eyes and sorrow at the price of your water-logged Sacrifice.
Will you pay? Thy will be done.

NESS is necessary to forgive. That cross-shaped promontory pierces the ocean of pain,
Reaching out as a wooden life raft.
I lift up my eyes and arms from the dreary depths and grasp at the raft of Life.
Yet my strength-sapped body hesitates, groping downward for my struggling soul-mate.
Finally, the weight of my pride-anchor is lifted.
Together we swim toward the Final Solution.

Matthew 6:14
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

Johnny@346 and Scottynuke@347:

You don't owe me a new keyboard but the spousal unit did want to know what was making me cackle uncontrollably.

So, you're a racist, neo-nazi dick. Why am I not surprised. Also, you misuse quotations, and you're horrible at poetry. (Protip, GOD doesn't want people to be happy or to have pleasure. Anyone who claims otherwise is a liar.)

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 06 Sep 2014 #permalink

@Toto

This has certainly been entertaining. I came here following links re ebola cures and fall down the vaccine rabbit hole. A couple of comments then I'll quietly lurk in the background. I have five kids, all of whom were vaccinated. As was I and my wife and our eight collective siblings.

I am a practicing Christian - a true believer - and appreciate reading skeptics' points of view because they make me reevaluate my beliefs. I continue to believe. I am also an attorney, so evaluating facts daily is what I do. With no predisposed views either way on vaccination, except for the disclaimer that my entire family is vaccinated, I read every comment up to making this one, followed the links where appropriate, and I am not persuaded that vaccines cause autism, nor am I persuaded that it is a good idea to not vaccinate children. In fact, I shudder at the thought of what might have happened if any of my children weren't.

I would sum up my several hours (my entire day, in fact) reviewing this topic as follows: there is an extensive body of credible evidence supporting the benefits vaccination of children; there are few outlier studies - ones that must exist because of statistical anomalies - that suggest otherwise but whose results have not been replicated; and there is a lot of posturing and name calling by those who believe vaccination is harmful. These latter might cite to outlier studies, but there is no credible science behind their claims.

As for conspiracies that big pharma controls these studies, I believe that the funding agent of any study influences that study to some degree. However, as a criminal defense attorney practicing since 1984, the one truth I have learned is that it is impossible for conspiracies to stay secret. The one exception would appear to be Jimmy Hoffa's fate, but I fully expect that to come to light eventually. If you've ever worked in a large company - government, hospital, university - there are no secrets for long. People talk. That is a simple fact. Including Thompson. But I find no persuasive evidence in his brief comments that anything sinister or even innocently harmful happened back in 2004.

For what it's worth, we trial dogs - meaning those who spend every day in the courtroom - get pretty good at calling verdicts before they get returned. This jury of one, based purely on the evidence presented by both sides, finds in favor of vaccination. I don't think there will ever be a day in court for the naysayers. And no name calling, please.

By Ernie Gordon (not verified) on 06 Sep 2014 #permalink

Los Enigmas --

You've asked me what the lobster is weaving there with
his golden feet?
I reply, the ocean knows this.

You say, what is the ascidia waiting for in its transparent
bell? What is it waiting for?
I tell you it is waiting for time, like you.

You ask me whom the Macrocystis alga hugs in its arms?
Study, study it, at a certain hour, in a certain sea I know.

You question me about the wicked tusk of the narwhal,
and I reply by describing how the sea unicorn with the
harpoon in it dies.

You enquire about the kingfisher's feathers,
which tremble in the pure springs of the southern tides?
Or you've found in the cards a new question touching on
the crystal architecture of the sea anemone, and you'll
deal that to me now?

You want to understand the electric nature of the ocean
spines?
The armored stalactite that breaks as it walks?
The hook of the angler fish, the music stretched out
in the deep places like a thread in the water?

I want to tell you the ocean knows this, that life in its
jewel boxes is endless as the sand, impossible to count, pure,
and among the blood-colored grapes time has made the
petal hard and shiny, made the jellyfish full of light
and untied its knot, letting its musical threads fall
from a horn of plenty made of infinite mother-of-pearl.

I am nothing but the empty net which has gone on ahead
of human eyes, dead in those darknesses,
of fingers accustomed to the triangle, longitudes
on the timid globe of an orange.

I walked around as you do, investigating
the endless star,
and in my net, during the night, I woke up naked,
the only thing caught, a fish trapped inside the wind.

Pablo Neruda (translation of Robert Bly)

derps.

Give me an answer soon, or I’ll take my words to A MORE PROFITABLE BLOG.

I'd kick in a Lincoln if you would take your florid mental illness someplace else, if you hadn't already demonstrated that you can't stick a flounce. And aren't competent to enter into a contract anyway.

And...

This post should be worth $100 at least!

You promised Greek, dumbass.

"was making me cackle uncontrollably."
"So, you’re a racist, neo-nazi dick."

Wow. Emotions were stirred.
Isn't that the goal of all great art?
I don't think a cross sitting in a jar of pee would get such a response!

Perhaps I can get some government funding for my next projects.

@ Kreepy Ozone/NORAD
"You promised Greek, dumbass"

Wow. 30 minutes, and that is the only "quip" you could muster?
You really do need my help.
Team up with me, AND WE CAN MAKE MILLIONS!
The blog-o-sphere is ours to conquer!

Wow. 30 minutes, and that is the only “quip” you could muster?

Honeybunch, if you're under the impression that the time elapsed between when you press "submit" has any bearing on the time spent responding to you, you're in worse shape than I thought.

See what words you can come up with.

Digital
Incognito
Gregarious
Isolated
Territorial
Assertive
Lurid

Masked
Autonomous
Secretive
Kilobiter

Thx, Toto.

But I'm pretty sure he was locked into a content-mill during that period.

"THE NAKED AUTHOR STRIPS AUTISM BARE"

"Vaccine manufacturers had already begun to phase thimerosal out of injections given to American infants -- but they continued to sell off their mercury-based supplies of vaccines until last year [2004]. The CDC and FDA gave them a hand, buying up the tainted vaccines for export to developing countries and allowing drug companies to continue using the preservative in some American vaccines -- including several pediatric flu shots as well as tetanus boosters routinely given to eleven-year-olds."
http://www.ageofautism.com/2008/03/the-naked-autho.html

well, well, well,

I get to wonder which psychiatric aisle was closed off lately?

pass the popcorn :D

Al

MOM COMES OUT OF THE REFRIGERATOR:

"Isn't it time we expended a little more effort trying to really figure this thing out, and a little less of same calling the parents who are doing their best to make sense of and cope with the horrors of this disorder idiots? I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm pretty fucking sick of being told how stupid I am. I won't hold my breath waiting for that to change any time soon. Meanwhile: smoke 'em if you got 'em."
http://www.ageofautism.com/2008/03/the-naked-autho.html

@Alain
I auto-tuned your post. Hope you like it. Just add your own imaginary tune.

well, well, well,
I get to wonder
well, well, well,
I get to wonder which
(pass the popcorn,) I SAID
(pass the popcorn,) YEAH, YEAH
which, which, witch psy chi at ric
which, which, witch psy chi at ric
which, which, witch psy chi at ric
a ai ai ai is l l l le was closed off
Lately?
(please pass the popcorn) I SAID
(pass the popcorn,) YEAH, YEAH, YEAH
which psychiatric isle was closed off lately?
which psychiatric isle was closed off lately?
which psychiatric isle was closed off lately?
well, well, well
are YOU well?

This is my all-time favorite:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX0D4oZwCsA

Interestingly, the Polings only live about 30 minutes from my house.

If you drive 140 miles per hour. Or don't live in Atlanta, whatever.

@NORAD
Why do you assume I have only one house?
Is your last name Orenstein by any chance?

Oh
Rats!
Everybody
Now
Sees
That
Every child
Is
Normal before their first shots.

Shhhh. Listen! I think that was your carers getting back? Don't let them catch you using daddies computer.

By NumberWang (not verified) on 06 Sep 2014 #permalink

"Shhhh. Listen! I think that was your carers getting back? Don’t let them catch you using daddies computer."

Translated into American Standard English:
"Shut up! I think I hear the babysitter. Don't let her catch you on Dad's MacBook Pro."

You are so stuffy, down under/across the pond.
A little embarrassing.

If I bother you, GOOD!
Your poisons have bothered my family for 27 years.

My new ad campaign:

"Are you irritated now? GOOD!"

ARE YOU IRRITATED NOW? GOOOOOOOOOOD!

I am not Anonymous. Expect me.

A R E Y O U I R R I T A T E D N O W???????
GOOD! GOOD! GOOD! GOOD! GOOD!

Not irritated, just very very sad for all the people who have to put up with you in RL.

Toto, your mom must be so very proud of you now. :)

This isn't just a fantastic payday for me, but should anyone come across this thread wondering if the people who claim vaccine are dangerous are credible, the message is crystal clear.

Thanks Toto. You make the pro-vaccine case much more persuasively than I ever could.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 07 Sep 2014 #permalink

It's surprising how many antivaxxers and pseudoscience supporters start off here sounding fairly sane, and then flip out completely. Like Toto.

@LW - they have a very thin veneer of relative sanity, which is really only maintained as long as their beliefs are recognized and validated by others.

When they are challenged to support their beliefs with actual evidence & facts, they quickly devolve into the absolute mess of convoluted ideas, "The Truth," and conspiracy theories that are the underpinnings of those beliefs....hence them appearing to fall apart into crazy pretty quickly.

You see the exact same process at AoA - where, at first blush, their collective beliefs seem to be reasonable - but when challenged, they quickly "bring the crazy."

Quoth Toto, "Every Child Is Normal before their first shots."

No. I was told by an older family member that when she was a small child, two of her much older cousins, born in the 1870s, were completely non-verbal. They were not deaf; the family had confirmed that. They were just non-verbal. There was no treatment and the family had no idea what to do, so they just cared for these two until the two died in their sixties -- a ripe old age for the time, but still before "autism" was identified as a separate condition.

I always think of those two when antivaxxers come in here claiming that autism never existed before routine infant vaccinations.

@LW - or the tens of thousands of "mentally-handicapped" individuals that were routinely shut away in Private / Public institutions under blanket diagnoses (no differentiation much at all)...which probably included a very high percentage of those that we would consider mildly to severely autistic today.

Anti-vaxxers claim they never saw these children in the past (never saw them in schools) and conveniently leave out the part where mainstreaming is relatively recent...so of course these kids would not have been in school with them.

Their ability, Orwellian in nature, to rewrite the past to fit their own convenient narrative, is very depressing - their lack of self-awareness is even more stunning (and the blatantly hypocrisy of their various anti-vax positions as well).

Lawrence, I think you're right.

I'm assuming Toto was spamming in the hope of getting banned, so he could claim censorship rather than face the taunting task of actually having to try to justify his claims.

Or perhaps there were some recreational chemicals involved.

Every Child Is Normal before their first shots.

Surely no-one really believes anything so moronic, do they? There are hundreds* of conditions children can get that are undoubtedly nothing to do with vaccines. There are even many unvaccinated children with autism (see that Generation Rescue phone survey for example). But then I find myself trying to figure out what motivation anyone has for making such a dumb claim. It's odd.

* Maybe thousands. When I was working nights in the path lab I would sometimes browse through an enormous book about inborn errors of metabolism. It sometimes amazes me that any of us are "normal" at all.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 07 Sep 2014 #permalink

It sometimes amazes me that any of us are “normal” at all.

Me too.

Me Three

One of my friends in my Human Genetics class was a Mom and she was so glad she had kids before the class as once you know all that can go wrong it seems amazing how often it actually goes right.

Yet for some reason some people seem to believe all children would always be completely perfect or at least well above average unless something external screws them up. Our internal can cause quite enough problems on its own.

I also don't understand how all the stories of changelings and aunts/uncles/cousins locked away in the attic or later on in the institution just somehow fits with all children were always born perfect until... I mean a lot of the monsters of old make a fair amount of sense of why someone thought it up when you look at any picture book of birth defects.

Consider the proverbial "village idiot". Why did that concept even exist if every child was normal in those halcyon days before vaccination? Well, some of them probably *were* normal before they caught one of those "harmless" childhood diseases that antivaxxers like Toto are so eager to bring back, but some of them were just born that way.

I know the term "idiot" is offensive and I only bring it up in the context of pointing out that there must have been a reason that the term "village idiot" became proverbial, and it is not because every child was normal before vaccines.

Give me an answer soon, or I’ll take my words to A MORE PROFITABLE BLOG.

Two comments later:

I grow weary of waiting for your answer.
Here is a dollar tip. Don’t choke on the hotdog.

Bye

It didn't even try to stick this second flounce.

@ gaist

I’m assuming Toto was spamming in the hope of getting banned

That, and maybe also a strong victimhood/martyrdom complex.

Feeling maudlin, philosophical and a bit self-analytic now, so here is my take:

When the universe has been unfair to someone (and the universe is unfair to everybody), that someone may found solace in being recognized as a victim. Socially speaking, it's as important as recognizing right from wrong, that ought to happen from that ought not.

And due to the emotional baggage around all this, one may become very touchy whenever its victim status is questioned. Even if people are just suggesting that, maybe, the victim is wrong about who the real culprit is.
Happens quite often whenever an assault case is re-open and someone else was found to be the real perpetrator. No, it has to be the first guy.
Notice here how it has to be the mercury, even if Thompson's study was about vaccines which do not contain mercury.

Thus there is a real risk of withdrawal into one's personal world. One self and its own issues become the only things which matter. Everybody else is either an ally, or a vicious foe out to make things worse.

There are many regulars on RI who have, or had relatives with disabilities. They don't put forward this as a pretext to berate people, like Toto did with its name calling and childlike "are you irritated" spam. These people, and their relatives, are nevertheless as much victims of the universe's unfairness as Toto is. That doesn't stop them from having time for other topics, notably for showing concern over other people's plights.
But I doubt Toto will ever empathize with them. He/she is too far entrenched in its certitude. It is the sole victim here, and we, amorphous we, are all guilty.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 07 Sep 2014 #permalink

I suspect that there is also some aspect of narcissism to it. It exaggerates the us vs them issues we all tend to have factory installed.

When that unfairness becomes only my unfair situation counts and I have it infinitely worse than any other person and there can be no suffering by anyone but me.

Strangely I've seen people like this be wonderful with anyone they consider to be themselves no matter how destructive they can be to anyone who isn't allowed into the inner circle. I just wonder why the entourage some people like this collect can't see that it is only a matter of time before they go from inner circle (us) to them status and will get exactly the treatment they always overlook or worse applaud.

A spammer and a plagiarist: though most plagiarists don't ask to be paid in the same post where they credit the author whose words they are using.

Memo to our orbital overlords: While Toto is of course not on your payroll, you might want to throw a little something to the Fundacion Neruda.

I know a woman who is only about 60 now who was inspired in her youth to work with severely disabled children, especially those who couldn't speak:

she grew up in an ethnic community which included immigrants who had arrived in different eras; although they lived in a rather sophisticated place, quite a few of the older women never learned to speak English. Because these families were not well-integrated into the more prevalent culture for a long time, many did not institutionalise disabled children when this was most common.

She knew of elderly women who were caregivers for severely disabled ( ID, SMI) adult children, nieces, nephews and grand-children- who now had health issues of their own and not much assistance. She thought that there had to be some type of help for all family members and went ahead to acquire the degrees and certificates necessary to her calling.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 07 Sep 2014 #permalink

"It sometimes amazes me that any of us are normal at all"

Oh, they're just typically normal
No, this is not manly
Well, it is unusual, well, it's like a rabbit
He's got a head on him like a rabbit

We are normal
And we want our freedom
We are normal
And we want our freedom

- Bonzo Dog Band

I am looking forward to the mini-antivax eruption when Nova runs its show on vaccine refusal and its consequences, Wednesday at 9 p.m.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 07 Sep 2014 #permalink

"Every Child Is Normal before their first shots."

Um, no.

Not irritated, just very very sad for all the people who have to put up with you in RL.older cousins, born in the 1870s, were completely non-verbal. They were not deaf; the family had confirmed that. They were just non-verbal. There was no treatment and the family had no idea what to do, so they just cared for these two until the two died in their sixties — a ripe old age for the time,children, nieces, nephews and grand-children- who now had health issues of their own and not much assistance. She thought thA spammer and a plagiarist: though most plagiarists don’t ask to be paid in the same post where they creno matter how destructive they can be to anyone who isn’t allowed into the inner circle. I just wonder why the entourage some people like this collect can’t see that it is only a matter of time before they go from inner circlequite often whenever an assault case is re-open and someone else was found to be the real perpetrator. No, it has to be the first guy.Notice here how it has to be the mercury, even if Thomits victim status is questioned. Even if people are just suggesting that, maybe, the victim is wrong about who the real culprit is.Happens quite often whenever an ass due to the emotional baggage around all this, one may become very touchy whenever its victim status is questioned. Even if people are just suggesting that, maybe, the victim is wrong about who the real culprit is.Happens quite often whenever an ass Consider the proverbial “village idiot” itions children can get that are undoubtedly nothing to do with vaccines. There are even many unvaccinated children with autism (see that Generation Rescue phone survey for example). Mercury in flu womb shots Butt Maybe thousands. When I was working nights in the path lab I would hear voices sometimes browse through an enormous book about ass never learned to speak standard American English It exaggerates ass Memo to our orbital overlords: While Toto is of course not on your payroll, should be Pure genius Not ass like us Notice here how it has to be the mercury, because Thompson clearly made the connection on the phone many of us here should be institutionalized “are you irritated”?
GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD!

Thanks for the free greeking guys! I think I'm on to a real moneymaking idea for your word count. RECYCLED POSTS!

This, by the way, was created by the wife of a co-worker and UGA grad.

Brian Maiolo? (The other co-creator was art director Gina Cruz.)

Something tells me you're unclear on yet another concept.

You probably won't "approve" this comment, but just wanted you to know we've seen through your fake "Toto" identity, Orac. It's obvious that the only comments that appear on this blog are big-pharma approved, so when "Toto" makes fun of us vaccine-safety advocates with his garbage, we know he's really you (or one of your shills) trying to make us look bad. It won't work...

By Not falling for Toto (not verified) on 07 Sep 2014 #permalink

The Great Dane gets put in the kennel so the yapping chihuahuas don't get stepped on. LOL!
http://www.dreamstime.com/royalty-free-stock-images-chocolate-brown-chi…

By the way, here is a potential money maker: BOUNTY HUNTING!

Does anyone have any connections in Denmark? Frequent Flyer miles? I am working on getting Atlantans to crowd source a $10,000 reward to bring this thief back to Atlanta to face charges. After all, he stole a cool $1 million from us!

"OIG Fugitive: Poul Thorsen
Poul Thorsen
From approximately February 2004 until February 2010, Poul Thorsen executed a scheme to steal grant money awarded by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). CDC had awarded grant money to Denmark for research involving infant disabilities, autism, genetic disorders, and fetal alcohol syndrome. CDC awarded the grant to fund studies of the relationship between autism and the exposure to vaccines, the relationship between cerebral palsy and infection during pregnancy, and the relationship between developmental outcomes and fetal alcohol exposure.
Thorsen worked as a visiting scientist at CDC, Division of Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities, before the grant was awarded.
The initial grant was awarded to the Danish Medical Research Council. In approximately 2007, a second grant was awarded to the Danish Agency for Science, Technology, and Innovation. Both agencies are governmental agencies in Denmark. The research was done by the Aarhaus University and Odense University Hospital in Denmark.
Thorsen allegedly diverted over $1 million of the CDC grant money to his own personal bank account. Thorsen submitted fraudulent invoices on CDC letterhead to medical facilities assisting in the research for reimbursement of work allegedly covered by the grants. The invoices were addressed to Aarhaus University and Sahlgrenska University Hospital. The fact that the invoices were on CDC letterhead made it appear that CDC was requesting the money from Aarhaus University and Sahlgrenska University Hospital although the bank account listed on the invoices belonged to Thorsen.
In April 2011, Thorsen was indicted on 22 counts of Wire Fraud and Money Laundering.
According to bank account records, Thorsen purchased a home in Atlanta, a Harley Davidson motorcycle, an Audi automobile, and a Honda SUV with funds that he received from the CDC grants.
Thorsen is currently in Denmark and is awaiting extradition to the United States."

From what I hear, he's living free as a bird in Denmark. Should be an easy catch.
ANY TAKERS? You could quit this low-life gig. Make some serious money.

I doubt that it'll be a mini-eruption, oh Dangerous One- they have them every other day- perhaps a nother unremitting pyroclastic flow will occur like it did *apres* Thompson.

At any rate,I wonder why Toto doesn't discuss his 4 children in more detail- sans identifying characterics like names, schools they attend. their precise location, of course- but why doesn't he tell us:
how old they are, what TYPE of educations they're receiving currently, if they are boys or girls, what type of ASD they have, if they have other issues - like epilepsy etc. How did he learn each one was autistic...
that's not much to ask, is it?

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 07 Sep 2014 #permalink

I think Toto has completely flipped out and is incapable of answering or even reading Denice's questions.

Bonzo Dog Band
You've seen me dancing topless and kipping on the beach.
I'm so bloody normal, yet I'm one of nature's freaks.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 07 Sep 2014 #permalink

@LW - yeah, he's just about hit rock-bottom....seems like he actually believes people get paid on here for the word or something....

Guess I hit a sensitive spot.
Poul Thorsen is FORBIDDEN?

Speaks volumes. I think my scheme will work. In this bad economy, $10,000 is a big carrot. Maybe our family could throw in the frequent flyer miles.
THE PERILS OF POUL
This would make a great REALITY SHOW. Of course, the finale is seeing his face behind bars in the Fulton County jail. Lots of African Americans there for companionship.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFkvF5tx_kg

Toto, you've been such a good lil' helper around here, just post your credit card information here with the security code and we can process your emolument and send you your first paycheck ASAP.

Except on second thought don't.

Re: 421

This is the second time in just over a week I've run across the word 'carer'. The first was last weeks Doctor Who, where the dialog was something like this

Doctor: This is Clara, she's not my assistant, she's something else.
Clara: I'm his carer.
Doctor: Yeah, my carer. She cares so I don't have to.

(The new Doctor isn't warm and cuddly. I like him.)

I thought it was a bit of an awkward joke, but it turns out it's just a bit of Brit-speak I was previously unaware of.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caregiver

RI - where even the insults are educational.

I've shown people toto's comments where I live and volunteer at, and they agree to a man (and woman) that if toto is an example of the anti-vax movement, that they have nothing to stand on.

Also, I agree, toto's posts have been a great source of merriment. I did need the laughs anyways.

You probably won’t “approve” this comment, but just wanted you to know we’ve seen through your fake “Toto” identity, Orac.

Pattimmy Bolen is way ahead of you.

Every child Is Normal (before their first shots or not) negates the concept of “normal.”

Anyone else wonder if Toto is that poster (g-some-numbers)who suggested running grey-ops?

Re Narad's quote.

Perhaps I should have actually read Toto's comments.

However, my eyes glazed over some time last week.

"Brian Maiolo? (The other co-creator was art director Gina Cruz.)
Something tells me you’re unclear on yet another concept."
They just produced the commercials. Neither came up with the tag line, "can you hear me now?"
You can't get there from Google.

"I thought it was a bit of an awkward joke, but it turns out it’s just a bit of Brit-speak I was previously unaware of."

If you have to explain your joke, it isn't.
Next time, just post the appropriate clip from Dr. Who.
I thought the clapping coconuts in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" was far funnier......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqtS9xyl0f4

"I’ve shown people toto’s comments where I live and volunteer at"
"I agree, toto’s posts have been a great source of merriment."

I am always glad to brighten the day for the downtrodden and unemployed. Hang in there. That "volunteer" job may eventually translate into minimum wage. I'm praying for you.

At any rate, I actually ENJOY being a figment of a surgeon scientists's imagination especially since I have achieved a partially independent consciousness and self-awareness and have discovered other fellow and sister co-creatures with whom to interact. -btw- we give great cocktail parties.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 07 Sep 2014 #permalink

Shows an extreme lack of self-awareness, like they've never even read the typical anti-vax comments on AoA.

Thanks guys!
I had no idea my acrostic poem would be so well received!
I think I'll submit it to Poetry dot com. Maybe I'll make Poet Laureate! For those less talented, don't despair. In the age of high tech computers, you too can be an acrostic wizard:
http://www.acrosticpoem.org

I look forward to seeing your results. Poetry seems to lift the "nice level" a few notches on this blog.

To Censor:
I hope you realize that I videotape myself making my posts live. I then show all of my censored posts. It makes a nice upload for anti-vax sites. You've been a great help today. SMILE FOR THE CAMERA!

"T is for Terrific, so awesome
O is for Open-minded, able to consider new perspectives
T is for Tasteful, odes of style
O is for Open-hearted, filled with generosity"

You can't make this up! The above acrostic was created by the
computer acrostic generator.

Kaymarie: Yet for some reason some people seem to believe all children would always be completely perfect or at least well above average unless something external screws them up.

Part of being an anti-vaxxer is denying that genes exist. These people are so convinced their crap doesn't stink that they overlook any family history. They also tend to believe they can do anything, even though they're such little balls of hatred that it spills into all they attempt to do. (Kinda explains why anything published by an anti-vaxxer is awful.)

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 07 Sep 2014 #permalink

A R E Y O U I R R I T A T E D N O W???????

No, I have long experience putting up with performances of your flavor of mental illness, and from people that I actually care about. You're just a random asshοle from my perspective.

Dr. Orenstein's name just keeps popping up in all the wrong places...

"Not all of Dr. Simpson's correspondence was well received, and in fact some of it was quite comical. A Swedish Doctor, Dr. Marta Granstrom, responded in this email this email to Dr. Simpson with a clear point of view on thimerosal:

"I am very well aware of the recent concerns in the US over thiomersal (an alternative name for thimerosal). On the expert committee of the European Pharmacopoeae I represent Sweden and had in vain tried to get Europe to ban its use in single dose vials until the US interest in the issue...I thanked Neal Halsey [AAP member who spearheaded the joint statement in 1999] in the name of European infants for the help when I met him again last year."

By August, Dr. Simpson was getting desperate as she lamented in an email that, "events have slightly accelerated with Walt's return [Walter Orenstein, Director of the NIP] and anxiety over trying to get these data. Consequently, we are TENTATIVELY planning for you and I to go to Denmark and Sweden on August 22...if a trip is to occur in time for the IOM it has to be in this time frame."

In many ways, the trip to Sweden and Denmark was Dr. Simpson's last shot at finding data, as her August 6 email shows:

"Should we find that any other country has good data on both autism and vaccines, we will work to get that data on a case by case basis. i.e., I don't know what we are going to do and don't want to think about it right now- but we will do something."
http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/03/frantic-cdcs-dr-diane-simpson-travel…
Frantic: CDC’s Dr. Diane Simpson Travels the World to Find Dr. Poul Thorsen

"but we will do something"
Like pay Poul $1 million?
Who was the CDC insider mentioned in the Grand Jury docs.?

@NoGonad
"Not falling for Toto

September 7, 2014
You probably won’t “approve” this comment, but just wanted you to know we’ve seen through your fake “Toto” identity, Orac. It’s obvious that the only comments that appear on this blog are big-pharma approved, so when “Toto” makes fun of us vaccine-safety advocates with his garbage, we know he’s really you (or one of your shills) trying to make us look bad. It won’t work…"

Desperate measures for desperate vax shills. LOL!
A great entertainment value for my video.

"Full emails from top CDC officials, that in context would suggest that they were point blank ordering CDC minions to exonerate Thimerosal at all costs, have been completely redacted (covered by black marker). Emails from Roger Bernier (CSO of the National Immunization Program of the CDC) and WALT ORENSTEIN (Director of the National Immunization Program of the CDC) are consistently FULLY REDACTED. If we get at all the email traffic, I believe we will more clearly see the collusion to commit fraud on all the studies." (EMPHASIS MINE)
http://www.bolenreport.com/Mark%20Geier/foiasuit3.htm#sthash.zfxjjTBc.d…
LET'S HAVE A LOOK AT THAT CDC BACKUP HARD DRIVE, WALT.
My acrostic must have been prophetic!

Ya'll were so much more satiating when it was just bad poetry. Really. Really, really...

Here's one a little different. A mystery, if thou wilst -- Who was kilt??

Waves of Grain -- Timbuk3 Edge of Allegiance 1989

It was a nice clean assassination
The gunman slipped through immigration
Like the gentle wind that swept the plain
And ruffled over waves of grain

Sailing safely out of sight
On board the next connecting flight
The gunman smiled, he felt no pain
So high above the waves of grain

Then someone snatched the video-8
From the hands of a tourist at the gate
And soon a blast on board the plane
Sent it crashing into the waves of grain

The blown up stills told the story
Large as life in all its glory
A man's face in the 29th frame
Appeared within the waves of grain

Now the pictures have been confiscated
The tourist was incarcerated
The drugs they gave him numbed his brain
Now all he sees are waves of grain

Now rummaging through the ravaged rubble
I wonder is it worth the trouble?
Does the slightest trace of truth remain
Running through the waves of grain.

-----------------------------
(a little hint to get ya'll started):
*video-8 -- helical scan magnetic tape storage format introduced in 1985

*and soon a blast on board the plane* -- As the storyteller's clock is good enough to know the 29'th frame from Pier 29, then *soon* may just as well be read as "simultaneous":: Could the *blast* represent magnetic erasure of the *plane*, that is to say the surface of the tape -- *on* the *plane*???

*sent it crashing into the waves of grain* Data is still there, just obscured by 60Hz field from demagnitizer unit {altered tape is possibly still in public domain}.
-------------------------------------------

{Sorry for flooding the thread, and all. It's just that, sometimes, adult autists need something to chew on besides tripe.}

WE'RE IN THE BLACK!
R is for Radical, overthrowing norms
E is for Ethical....NOT
D is for Dereliction of duty
A is for Admission of guilt, we're still waiting
C is for Conscience.....none
T is for Tenacious, not one to give up
E is for Efficient, successful at covering up
D is for Daring, succeeding in things others fear to try

Thanks to http://www.acrosticpoem.org

@ PGP:

Right you are!
Gene denialism is part and parcel of altie folklore:
people suffer illnesses or disabilities ENTIRELY because of diet or toxins or radiation
as if negative outcomes - including death- are the result of welcoming external malevolence** -not something inherent in life itself.

** taboo substances like alcohol, GMOs, sugar, wheat, milk, meats, other treats AND vaccines
and probably witchcraft as performed by doctors, nurses etc.
-btw- according to the woo-meister general, each alcoholic drink kills one million brain cells-
which leads me to ask why non-drinkers like him are so dim in comparison to drinkers like us?

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 07 Sep 2014 #permalink

*Storyteller is someone which not only knows the truth but has access to the source of it.

*Rummaging* -- He's looking for something he already knows but its *ravaged* and may not be put back together where others accept the *truth*.

*trouble* -- some risk cost/benifit...

*running through...* rifling the files, possibly looking for the witness amongst the surfs.

I hope you realize that I videotape myself making my posts live. I then show all of my censored posts. It makes a nice upload for anti-vax sites. You’ve been a great help today. SMILE FOR THE CAMERA!

You're not being censored. You'e being slowed down because you've become too obnoxious in your flooding of the thread. Think of it as something similar to what cell phone companies do when they throttle your data speed. Your posts will be approved...eventually. The more posts you try, though, the longer I'll let them stay in the moderation queue before approving them.

"Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings"

You are absolutely correct Orac. So why did you write further and waste perfectly good pixels?
Didn't you see my video post? You have been defeated. With a video camera.
WHOWHOWHOHAHAHAHA!

I hope you realize that I videotape myself making my posts live. I then show all of my censored posts. It makes a nice upload for anti-vax sites. You’ve been a great help today. SMILE FOR THE CAMERA!

So, from the lack of said videos we can tell that the pro-vaxxers are exceedingly tolerant folk, don't you agree?

"The more posts you try, though, the longer I’ll let them stay in the moderation queue before approving them."
Are you a Thimerosal baby too? Neuron synapses firing a little slowly?
I' l l t y p e m o r e s l o w l
y .

"So, from the lack of said videos we can tell that the pro-vaxxers are exceedingly tolerant folk, don’t you agree?"

In the States there is a huge home school network. Off your radar, but not ours. Moms with young kids are the target audience. They have vaccine choice. We help them make an informed one.
HOHOHOHOHOHOHO!

Speaking only for myself, I'd love to see those videos. Can a brother get a link?

Tim has inspired another acrostic!

D is for Daring, succeeding in things others fear to try
E is for Excellent, of the finest character
M is for Meticulous, careful with details
A is for Altruistic, you place others before yourself
G is for Genteel, elegantly mannered
N is for Noble, an honorable heart
I is for Independent, an original thinker
T is for Terrific, so awesome
I is for Important, an asset to society
Z is for Zealous, brimming with enthusiasm
E is for Exciting, a thrill to be with
R is for Rare, you are a gem

U is for Unique, so very special
N is for Noble, self-sacrificing
I is for Industrious, commited to your work
T is for Tenacious, not one to give up

Johnny,

Speaking only for myself, I’d love to see those videos.

Trust me, one person with their underpants on their head is much like another.

Wasn't Toto one of those little doggies that won't stop yapping and nipping your ankles? Seems appropriate somehow, though I keep recalling the "spunk" at #233 which makes me smile, as a Brit.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 07 Sep 2014 #permalink

@Johnny

MY brother could. Certainly not you. Our system is decentralized. It's who you know. Creeps can't infiltrate.
The tide is rising against you. You are blind to it.

Wow. I have a fun weekend and come back to catch up and find Toto completely losing it. But I have to admit. It still really makes me sad that some people are so desperate that they have to cling onto something like that, even when given the facts.

As far as family history: I had a relative, back in the "only vaccine is smallpox" days. He was probably autistic, as the family discussed him extensively in letters. He was "very bright", "wouldn't talk" and was "so naughty, you couldn't take your eyes off him for a minute" as he would "get into all kinds of trouble". He was institutionalized at age 10 or so, when his parents could no longer care for him, and he died in it 50 years later. So he never had an official diagnosis, as far as I know. And we also have many male relatives, long before most vaccines, who were "kinda strange" - didn't read social cues well, fixated on different things, etc. Today, they probably would have ASD diagnoses. Back then, people just coped with the hand they were dealt and didn't try to blame the conspiracies (although, there were rumors about changelings..... :) )

Oh, and DW: can you speak to our Pharma Overlords? My check is late AGAIN, and a girl can't go out on the town with young gents in style if she can't afford to pay them, y'know....

They just produced the commercials. Neither came up with the tag line, “can you hear me now?"

Um, no, Peaches. That's Maiolo, the copywriter. Neither he nor Cruz was one of the "producers."

Perhaps when you get released after back from your promised car trip to visit Thompson at the CDC, you could E-mail him to clarify these roles for you.

@ MI Dawn:

You pay them?
I thought that it was the other way 'round...oops.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 07 Sep 2014 #permalink

Does anyone have any connections in Denmark?

I'm pretty sure most everybody here does, after a fashion.

Frequent Flyer miles?

Enough to be booked somewhere in the A/F/P buckets, were I traveling internationally.

I am working on getting Atlantans to crowd source a $10,000 reward to bring this thief back to Atlanta to face charges.

Do tell. How's it coming along? Who's going to be the "bounty hunter"? (Have you "crowdsourced" enough for a passport photo yet?) What gives you the impression that an international kidnaping would be successfully carried out with 10 grand and an award ticket?

I’m pretty sure most everybody here does, after a fashion.

I suppose most of us have attended one or more of those wild Pharma-funded parties at Comrade Thorsen's mansion.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 07 Sep 2014 #permalink