I know that when last I commented, I expressed the desire to move on from the topic of the CDC whistleblower case after having covered it for a week. And so was my intent. However, this being a holiday in the US and my having had an odd experience on Friday led me to think that one last update is in order. Those not familiar with the story can recap here:
- Brian Hooker proves Andrew Wakefield wrong about vaccines and autism
- Hey, where is everybody? The “CDC whistleblower” manufactroversy continues apace
- The CDC “whistleblower” manufactroversy: Twitter parties and another “bombshell” e-mail
- A bad day for antivaccinationists: A possible retraction, and the “CDC whistleblower” William W. Thompson issues a statement
- The CDC whistleblower William W. Thompson: Final (for now) roundup and epilogue
Over the weekend, there have been a lot of attacks directed at those who have made critical comments about Brian Hooker and his conspiracy theory, or who have, quite reasonably, pointed out that the statement of the “CDC whistleblower,” senior CDC scientist William W. Thompson, does not demonstrate that the CDC engaged in a “massive coverup” of evidence showing that MMR vaccination is associated with autism in African American males. These days, the attacks are coming in the form of a potentially libelous CNN iReport regurgitating Jake Crosby’s unfounded charges, and, of course, Twitter attacks galore:
@gorskon @brian_sthecobra @DrChrisNorthrup @RobSchneider We're holding all complicit accountable & heads will roll. The ax is coming down!
— Marsha McClelland (@Mofmars333) August 31, 2014
@gorskon @JBHandleyjr your words and actions will come back to haunt you on your deathbed #CDCwhistleblower
— Blaze (@autismeradicato) August 31, 2014
@gorskon @brian_sthecobra @DrChrisNorthrup @RobSchneider They're lies? You & others to be named were warned to stop. Time to pay the piper!
— Marsha McClelland (@Mofmars333) August 31, 2014
This all sounds rather...threatening. One wonders if Ms. McClelland thinks it’s wise to post such Tweets.
There was a time when such vilification would have bothered me, but I’m used to it now. Indeed, I wear it as a badge of honor. They don’t have anything else, and the intensity of the vitriol directed at me is proportional to my effectiveness in dismantling antivaccine claims.
Of course, the biggest unknown in this entire misbegotten saga is William W. Thompson, the “CDC whistleblower.” Over the last week and a half, I’ve wanted to ask him time and time again, “What on earth were you thinking?” Thompson now writes in his statement that he is willing to collaborate with “unbiased and objective scientists” to reanalyze vaccine safety datasets. That’s great. But, if that’s the case, why on earth did he ever contact Brian Hooker? Oddly enough, there are some Tweets that ask the key questions about Thompson’s motivations that echoed my own questions:
@gorskon Im gathering opinions from both sides. Im not an expert. Why would a seemingly respectable Dr tank his name&career on a study done
— marcos magaña (@mm3813) August 31, 2014
@gorskon 10 yrs ago? Why would he chose of all people Hooker to tell this to? (When its obvious hooker is not respected in the scientific
— marcos magaña (@mm3813) August 31, 2014
Excellent questions. At first, I thought we were left with two potential explanations. One was that Thompson had gone antivaccine. I don’t think he has, but some selected quotes publicized in which he criticized recommending the thimerosal-containing version of the flu vaccine for pregnant women, stating that it causes tics in children and tics are “autism-like.” So, although I don’t think he’s gone antivaccine (yet), he’s clearly imbibed at least some of that world view from Hooker. The other possibility was that Thompson had an unresolved scientific disagreement with his co-authors, a “beef,” if you will, that he is now resolving. But if that were the case, then surely there must have been better ways to resolve that than cozying up to an antivaccinationist who has been trying to get first Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) and then Rep. Bill Posey (R-FL) to hold hearings looking into a vaccine-autism link.
Friday, I was made aware of a possible third reason.
Based on some of my previous posts over at the not-so-secret other blog, I was unexpectedly contacted by Rick Morgan, William Thompson’s lawyer, who wanted to speak with me. So I gave him my number, and he called me on Friday. It was a brief, but very strange conversation. Morgan didn’t tell me much, but I didn’t expect him to, although he stated that he understood that I thought Thompson either had a beef with his co-investigators or had gone off the deep end. However, he wanted to “plant a seed” that maybe—just maybe—there might be another explanation, that this had been torturing Thompson all these years and he just had to do something because he couldn’t take it any more.
And maybe that is true. I have no way of knowing. I do know that, whatever his motivation, Thompson had done horrible damage and almost certainly endangered African American children to suffer from measles who might not have contracted it otherwise.
Assuming that what Mr. Morgan told me in that brief, cryptic conversation is true, it just goes to show how a guilty conscience, whether justified or not, can drive a man to do some really stupid things. Make no mistake, there is no doubt that what Thompson did was either incredibly naive and/or stupid. Maybe his conscience was torturing him for a decade. Again, who knows?
That thought led me to another thought, though. The central conspiracy theory of the antivaccine movement states that scientists and bureaucrats at the CDC are involved in a massive coverup of The Truth, undeniable scientific evidence that vaccines cause autism, all done in the service of big pharma. Now think about Thompson again. If what Morgan says is true, then Thompson’s conscience has been torturing him over a relatively scientific disagreement in which he didn’t really believe, based on the data presented in DeStefano et al, that there was a true correlation between MMR vaccination and autism, but he did believe that further studies should be done. Now his conscience has led him to ruin his scientific career and reputation over just that.
Now imagine if there had been a real conspiracy to suppress compelling evidence indicating that vaccines cause autism. In that case, there wouldn’t just be a single man torturing himself over decisions made, as Thompson, if we believe Morgan, apparently has. It would be men and women at every level of the CDC. If the CDC couldn’t “keep Thompson quiet” over this, if Thompson was willing to risk destroying his career over a small subgroup analysis with almost certainly spurious results that weren’t followed up on when he thought they should be, imagine what would happen if real data demonstrating a strong link between vaccines and autism had been covered up. There would be Bill Thompsons crawling out of the woodwork everywhere, beginning not long after the coverup began. To believe the CDC whistleblower conspiracy theory, you have to believe that virtually everyone at the CDC is either so ideologically blinded that they would have no trouble covering up a definite link between vaccines and autism or that they’re all so terrified that they stay silent.
Indeed, as a commenter this morning put it:
As for the three scientists discussed in the article, we all know full well that these men are NOT performing these experiments alone. There are people working under their direction with direct access to the data and ought to have seen this train wreck coming as well.
This is exactly the reason why, although I have little doubt that large organizations can cover up relatively minor issues, which is what Thompson’s insinuations amount to, they can’t for long cover up something huge, such as intentionally covering up a link between vaccines and autism. Ironically, the case of William Thompson is an excellent example of why such conspiracy theory beliefs are so incredibly implausible. Indeed, it reads like a bad movie script.
Worse for Thompson, even the tinfoil hat conspiracy contingent won’t be giving him much love any time soon. See, for instance, Ken Heckenlively’s post at the antivaccine crank blog Age of Autism this morning:
I really do want to thank Dr. Thompson for coming forward at this time, although it would have been much better if he'd done it earlier, when his conscience first troubled him. I think of the good scientists, like Dr. Andrew Wakefield, Dr. Brian Hooker, or my co-author, Dr. Judy Mikovits, who held firm to their principles. Wakefield has often said that the MMR controversy has cost him, "His job, his career, and his country." Dr. Mikovits has endured a similar level of torment as have other honest scientists who have presented inconvenient findings. For me, that is the definition of scientific courage. Scientists like Wakefield, Hooker, and Mikovits would NEVER dream of concealing data. For them, that would be the equivalent of a crime against humanity.
Of course, this statement shows such a breathtaking lack of awareness that it’s hard not to guffaw out loud. After all, Andrew Wakefield almost certainly committed gross scientific fraud far worse than even the most uncharitable interpretation of Thompson’s insinuations of fraud could ever support, and Brian Hooker tortured data in a manner most foul until it “confessed.” If you don’t believe me, take a gander at Hooker’s talk in front of a cancer quackery conference in which he brags at around 17:00 how “simple” the technique he used was and how “simplicity is elegance” in statistics and how he likes to do “simple” things rather than intellectually challenging things. Any statistician will tell you is a load of fetid dingo’s kidneys. He also at around 27:30 basically admitted that he recorded Thompson’s conversations, but claims he did so legally. Finally, arguably, Mikovitz is a bigger fraud than Wakefield. Yet Heckenlively views them as “heroes” because they are on “his” side and support his pseudoscientific quack beliefs.
The bottom line is that the antivaccine movement is very much like a cult. They follow their heros and reject any information that disconfirms their beliefs. There is one good thing, though. Andrew Wakefield’s behavior in this whole sordid affair was so vile, his lies so obvious, that even one of his acolytes realized it. If that can happen with a true believer, maybe that true believer will eventually realize that the rest of the antivaccine world view is built on pseudoscience, quackery, and lies. And if one can come to that realization, maybe others can.
A guy can hope, can’t he?
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More like this
On board the next connecting flight
The gunman smiled, he felt no pain
So high above the waves of grain
CIA agents have bird names and knowledge unbeknownst (above) to the common masses.
He washed his hands of it (he thought) and flew away.
Come on, Giant Brainoracs.... you're not even trying here!
What? You guys aren't part of the "Paul Thorsen" safe house brigade?
It is like a timeshare, but instead of going on a vacation, you get the honor of hosting (and hiding) Thorsen for a week.
I'll tell ya, he's one heck of an UNO player.
opps, missed some...
aboard the next connecting flight
He handed this intel off to his successor...
Independent Lab ‘Confirms Viral DNA in Merck Vaccine’
"But, both of these ‘concerns’ were put to rest via data presented by Laurent Bélec at the 9th International Congress on Autoimmunity on March 26-30, 2014 in Nice, France. They published their findings in a paper titled, “Confirmation of the Creation of a Novel Molecule in Gardasil.”
Recently Lee SH showed that Gardasil® contained fragments of HPV-11 or HPV-18 DNA, evidenced by nested PCR, of unknown significance [J Inorg Biochem. 2012 Dec;117:85-92]. We herein looked by optimized single PCR in different batches of Gardasil® from France for HPV L1 DNA using MY09/MY11 degenerate and nondegenerate primers, for HPV E2 and E6 DNA genes, and for contaminating Saccharomyces cerevisiae DNA."
Read more: http://naturalsociety.com/independent-lab-confirms-viral-dna-merck-vacc…
Follow us: @naturalsociety on Twitter | NaturalSociety on Facebook
fourier analysis, such as is used to extract usable radar imagery out of quadrature noise lifted the image.
" an international kidnaping "
That is certainly a mischaracterization. Going over there and filming ones efforts to find him, show what he is up to now, and present the grand jury findings, would go a long way in putting international pressure on having him extradited to face charges in Atlanta. It would certainly help to publicly discredit his bogus "research" on vaccines/autism. Wakefield is now into cinematography, it would be a great project for him.
LOL!
"That’s Maiolo, the copywriter."
Call him what you want. He didn't write it. Otherwise, you would have posted a link. What you posted said no such thing. I know the inside story on this, and I'm sticking to it. Think what you want. You are irrelevant.
I hate to break this to you, Bitsy, but I'm not "Not falling for Toto."
What, this?
So what? I haven't seen any remittances from you through "PAY PAL" for a service-level agreement, so you''re stuck with what you get. I do note that you attempted to evade the actual message, though. Here, let me help:
Can you hear me now?
SHOPPING FOR DATA:
Dr. Diane M Simpson:
"Thank you very much. Our primary question is: did the rates (of autism) increase dramatically from the late 1980's into the 1990's as they did here in the United States. A quick answer to that question would mean a great deal to us here !!! (even without the specific numbers)
http://mercury-freedrugs.org/docs/110927_ResponseToDanishCommitteeOnSci…
Why go through all this trouble when even the anti-vaxxers think you are too crackpot to be "one of them" and performing Olympic-level mental gymnastics to distance themselves from you.
My new ad campaign:
“Are you irritated now? GOOD!”
No :)
ARE YOU IRRITATED NOW? GOOOOOOOOOOD!
No :)
I am not Anonymous. Expect me.
A R E Y O U I R R I T A T E D N O W???????
GOOD! GOOD! GOOD! GOOD! GOOD!
No :)
See, all you say or anyone say to trigger negative emotion, absolutely won't change my perception of myself, my value or how it feel good to be appreciated by most everyone I decide to include in my life. Everyone else, I drop them off from my life, and thus, you're dropped in my ignore list :)
Alain
"Summary of the Critical Issue
The “----Original Message----”, dated: “Wed 13 11 2002 09:24”, from: Marlene Brieciet Lauritsen, (mailto: mbl@dadlnet.dk), to: Poul Thorsen, Kreesten Meldgaargd Madsen and dcs6@cdc.gov, subject: Manuscript about Thimerosal and autism, which, when speaking of autism in Denmark, clearly states: “But the incidence and prevalence are still decreasing in 2001”.
Thus, all of these individuals, Kreesten Meldgaargd Madsen, Marlene Brieciet Lauritsen, Poul Thorsen, and Diana Schendel, knew by the end of November 13, 2002, if not before, that the removal of the Thimerosal-preserved DTP vaccine from the Danish vaccination program had led to a decrease in the “incidence and prevalence” of autism in Denmark. Yet they all colluded with the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to submit a document for publication that made a knowingly false claim that the “rate” of autism increased after the Thimerosal-preserved vaccines were withdrawn for use in Denmark."
http://mercury-freedrugs.org/docs/110927_ResponseToDanishCommitteeOnSci…
Somewhat related.
And where's my link, Toto? Pic, or it didn't happen.
Not safe for work
http://youtu.be/TCX4owupPmo
Not safe for work
DATA SUPPLY CHAIN CHALLENGES
"Dear Poul...."
"....I need to tell you that the figures in the manuscripts do not include the latest data from 2001. I only have these figures as a paper version and they are at work..REDACTED...but the incidence and prevalence are still decreasing in 2001...REDACTED"
http://mercury-freedrugs.org/docs/110927_ResponseToDanishCommitteeOnSci…
http://www.ageofautism.com/2014/09/age-of-autism-weekly-wrap-the-screen…
@Toto #485
That was fucking lame, dude. If we're going non-animae Nippo then it's best to just blow it out the bunghole:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=QPbdwgDb78w
"and thus, you’re dropped in my ignore list"
G OO OOOOO OOOOOOO OOOOOOD!
Unfortunately, it won't work. You can't hide from your conscience. At least not on the day of Judgement.
COLLUSION?
"Summary of the Critical Issue
This e-mail confirms Dr. Thorsen’s role in getting article published as well as the assistance the CDC was providing to get the article published as soon as possible in 2003.
Poul Thorsen’s request : “... Could you or Coleen write a cover-letter underlining the importance of getting this information out now? Please do not mention the Journals name, as it is not finalized, Could you bring this letter with you when you come? See you soon’"
http://mercury-freedrugs.org/docs/110927_ResponseToDanishCommitteeOnSci…
"Summary of the Critical Issue
Letter shows the CDC’s use if influence at a high level (United States Assistant Surgeon General) to get this knowingly biased study published:
“Sincerely,
José F. Cordero, M.D., M.P.H. Assistant Surgeon General Director
National Center on Birth Defects
and Developmental Disabilities”
The letter cleverly states
“In addition, a key strength of the study is the ability to examine rates of autism prior to and after the discontinuation of vaccines containing thimerosal in Denmark in 1992. Contrary to what would be expected if thimerosal was linked to autism, the authors did not observe a decline in the rate of autism with the removal of thimerosal containing vaccines.”
In addition, the letter closes with:
“I feel this is a very important study that deserves thoughtful consideration by the Journal. Its findings provide one strong piece of evidence that thimerosal is not causally linked to autism. Thank you for your timely consideration.”"
http://mercury-freedrugs.org/docs/110927_ResponseToDanishCommitteeOnSci…
Thanks scienceblogs for censoring this. Nice proof that you are in on the coverup of HARMING CHILDREN.
These are even worse examples of the genre than you started out with. Atlanta, you say? Well, it's too late to fault Sherman for not finishing the job.
Anyway, I think I have something lying around on the subject. Hang on....
[does the dishes]
... OK, found it. I hope this pairs well with your own home video. Whenever that materializes.
@ usethebrain: Here's where you should be posting your comments about vaccines.
Here are the statistics from the California Department of Public Health (current to September 2, 2014) about the major pertussis outbreaks in California. Note there were three infant deaths during 2014 (two infant death cases were early in the calendar year with disease onset during 2013):
http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/immunize/Documents/Pertussis_report_9-2…
I videotape myself making my posts live.
Is that what the kids are calling it these days?
Ah, I see. You belong to a secret society of some fashion and have been so foolish as to advertise how its system is structured.
The problem here is that you have just conceded that you are No. 0.020833333.
FIGURES DONT LIE.
BUT LIARS FIGURE.
Your lying "reports" of the holoCOST will burn up in Hell fire.
God is raising up an army of children whose testimony will WIPE YOU OUT.
HEAR THIS WELL.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/933954-autism-parents-reply-to-cnn-hear…
Tell Poul Thorsen he has been found out.
On Friday he will be brought to justice.
"for not by will of man did ever prophecy come, but by the Holy Spirit borne on holy men of God spake."
Toto, now that you've got that adorable little temper tantrum out of your system, how about answering some those questions people here have been asking you?
If you don't want to do it for the betterment of mankind, or to rub it in our faces, then how about just to show that you even could?
utbggy,
I'm replying to your comments on the vitamin C ebola thread.
If that's true it's shameful, but I don't see what the shortcomings of the US healthcare system have to do with vaccine safety. Does that mean you accept that falling vaccine uptake (for whatever reason) is responsible for increased incidence of pertussis?
I assume you are asking if we think all children who have had severe vaccine reactions have been reimbursed by the Vaccine Court. We don't know, any more than we know that every single injury compensated by the Vaccine Court was truly caused by vaccination. That's why using the compensated cases is not a good way of determining the true incidence of vaccine injury.
Based on the evidence from vaccine safety studies and the VSD, I think the incidence of serious vaccine injury is very probably lower than the compensated Vaccine Court cases suggests. You clearly believe the opposite. What evidence is your belief based on?
I spoke too soon, 'mafraid.
Antivaxxers like Toto should study the story of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf". They have exaggerated harms, deceitfully minimized benefits, misrepresented, quote-mined, flung around wild and unsupported accusations, and outright lied, to the point where absolutely nothing they say can be trusted.
If Orac himself hadn't confirmed that there was a question about Poul Thorsen, I would expect as a matter of course that he would turn out to be completely innocent, just based on the fact that a fruit-loop antivaxxer accused him of wrong-doing.
@DW....When I want intellectual stimulation, lots of fun overnight or whatever, it's with men my own age. The young men are sheer window dressing and therefore, paid. (not really...I don't actually go out with gigolos. If I had my check, I'd spend it on FAR more important things......)
Looking towards scheduling all sorts of shots with (hopefully) thimerosal soon. Unfortunately, my doctor likes the single dose stuff. (sulks) I'm due for flu shot, DTaP, and maybe an MMR as it seem to be coming around. Also will investigate the shingles vaccine...
Then someone snatched the video-8
From the hands of a tourist at the gate
Not *taken* but *hidden* -- In the Running Man sense of sneaking in unedited content.....hmm..... It is much easier to visualize that if it's a thumbdrive.... perhaps just the tape sans it's housing??
Everything I thought of looked creepy when I typed it out, so...
creepy
So, what are you doing next week?
/creepy
Yeah, my HMO uses the single dose flu vaccine, and I'm worried that the batteries in the nanobots that the Air Force injected into me are running down from lack of Hg. If I don't get them charged up again soon, they won't be able to keep beaming thoughts into my head. But befor I let that happen, I have an old fever thermometer full of delicious silvery stuff, and I can break that open. I believe in having a backup plan.
My HMO says another year to get the shingles shot, and I'm considering getting it on my own dime. Mom and dad both came down with shingles, and all I can say is "Do not want".
@Johnny - sorry, my dance card is full at this time. :)
I actually work for the ebil insurance companies. You'd think they'd like to save money and have nice, complacent bots working for them. And still they insist on this single dose, healthy stuff. Even worse, they stress all sorts of stuff like smoking cessation, healthy eating, exercise....Geez.
I can't help wondering how easy it would be to convince Toto that the half-human mercury-bloodstreamed shapeshifters from "Fringe" are real.
It sure the fυck doesn't seem to include you. Where are your videos? When are you going to drive to the CDC? When are you going to try to make a coherent remark?
@ MI Dawn:
Actually my own creatures are slightly older than I am- but remarkably well-preserved. The youngsters are for talk alone.
Sometimes I just can't resist repartee.
-btw- I just got the flu vax- am I now mercurial?
usethebraingodgiveyou:
Probably not, although can't speak authoritatively for the US legal system. But I fail to see the relevance. Not every child permanently damaged by vaccine-preventable diseases has been compensated either, and there are more of them around than vaccine-damaged.
You seem to be trying to argue that because somebody might slip through the cracks of legal system, we shouldn't vaccinate at all. To me, that argument is not only silly, it's illogical. You don't outlaw restaurants because somebody might choke on the food but not manage to sue the owners.
usethebrain: "Have the sum total of all children in the U.S who have been harmed by vaccines been compensated?"
I only linked to the NVICP statistics page twice or so. So you tell us. Also if your child is less than twenty six years old, you have only yourself to blame for not reading the federally required Vaccine Information Sheets.
I can tell from personal experience that children harmed with diseases get nothing. There is no National Disease Injury Compensation Program.
...." is raising up an army of children whose testimony will WIPE YOU OUT"
More likely, ANTIVAXXERS are collecting stories from distraught, unreliable parents who blame ASDs and other conditions on vaccines. Stagliano, Olmsted, Conroy, O'Toole,Jameson, Taylor et al are merely doing what they've been doing for years:
seeking a spotlight in which to showcase their martyr acts.
If there really is an army of children whose testimony will wipe vaccination campaigns out, then where is it? These claims go back a long time now, yet still the number of people coming forward to say their kid got autism from a vaccine is pretty small. Loud, but small.
Hmm. After I post, "Toto" (aka Orac) claims to be a real vaccine safety advocate, then Orac's shill, Narad, and fake-"Toto" have a cute little pretentd spat. Think that will fool anyone into thinking that "Toto" is real? Ha! The time is coming when Toto-Orac and all his fake identities are going down! See you in the funny papers!!
P.S. Nice try, Toto-Orac, in pretending that you're censoring yourself. You've got dozens of posts on this very thread using your Toto-hat - clear proof that you're Orac-shill himself.
I'm still waiting for toto to make a coherent comment, and my coworkers are having a good time laughing at toto's utter incompetence, as well as his utter lack of evidence supporting his/her/its views.
Please, toto, keep attempting to insult me with your juvenile insults. It really does show your utter lack of coherent thought, as well as showing that you have not one iota of evidence to support your views. I still need some laughs at your inane postings, however.
Well, I think the idea of somebody filming themselves post online eloquently describing how they are croundfunding a group of bounty hunters to "crowd source a $10,000 reward to bring this thief back to Atlanta to face charges" "Going over there and filming ones efforts to find him, show what he is up to now, and present the grand jury findings" is adorable.
Especially with the backpedaling when called out on claiming to try to fund an international kidnapping operation.
The federal indictment against Thorsen
"Today, Thorsen is facing 13 counts of wire fraud and 9 counts of money laundering. NaturalNews spoke with the Department of Justice and confirmed that extradition proceedings are under way to bring Thorsen to the United States from Denmark, although no particular timetable for that extradition has been announced.
Thorsen now faces up to 260 years in prison from the wire fraud charges, and up to an additional 90 years in prison for the money laundering charges, plus a total of $22.5 million in possible fines. In addition, the federal indictment also contains a so-called "forfeiture provision" which seeks the forfeiture of the personal property Dr. Thorsen allegedly purchased with money he stole from the CDC's grant activities: A house in Atlanta, two cars and a Harley Davidson motorcycle.
The case is being prosecuted by Assistant United States Attorneys Stephen H. McClain and Michael J. Brown, both out of the Northern District of Georgia (Atlanta). This Atlanta office has a well-known reputation for going after crooks, regardless of the political implications. This is the same office, for example, that indicted Atlanta's own mayor for corruption and tax charges in 2004 (http://www.justice.gov/tax/usaopress/2004/txdv0408-30-04.html).
The prosecuting attorney for that case, Sally Quillian Yates, is the same attorney contributing to this case. She said of Thorsen: "Grant money for disease research is a precious commodity. When grant funds are stolen, we lose not only the money, but also the opportunity to better understand and cure debilitating diseases. This defendant is alleged to have orchestrated a scheme to steal over $1 million in CDC grant money earmarked for autism research. We will now seek the defendant’s extradition for him to face federal charges in the United States."
Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/032216_Thorsen_fraud.html#ixzz3ClSA2VPL
Krebs: It's based on human nature. Most of us common folk hold doctors in high esteem, hold nurses in high esteem, hold medicine in high esteem. Although Doctors may go into it for the money, you won't last long if your patients don't trust you. I have no proof that thousands were harmed, but blamed it on something other than vaccines, or maybe were reticent to be one of those crazy vaccine parents or even doctors, so just held it in their heart, but let the actual incident go. How is raising a fit going to change anything? Your child seems to be okay now...it's all over. You pick up and go on.
I and my best friend both have son's whose reactions were severe, one was hospitalized and 5 doctors seemed to agree it was the MMR. Both of our boys, my son is my only child, are learning disabled...here in America that means having dyslexia or mild autism or learning troubles, not low IQ as it does in England....
Elephant in the room:
WHY was Denmark monitoring an "autism" rate along with vaccine data ANYWAY? Did they suspect something?
WHY did Denmark remove Thimerosal from infant/child vaccines anyway? The Thimerosal makes the vaccines CHEAPER and gives them a longer shelf-life.
WHY DID THEY REMOVE THIMEROSAL IF THERE WAS NO BENEFIT, BUT WOULD INSTEAD CAUSE THEM TO LOSE MONEY?
No one has ever addressed that obvious question.
My son's disability, in incidences of brain damage, has been located to a specific part of the brain and has a special name, Gertsmanns syndrome.
Chris...so you think every child who has been harmed by a vaccine has been represented? Did you actually raise your hand, or not?
Gaist, you seem to have some common sense.
POUL THORSEN Grand Jury criminal indictment
http://www.rescuepost.com/files/thorsen-indictment.pdf
One in one million children are harmed by vaccines...10,000 vaccines at a time...
Oy......................................................................................................................................................................................................................that makes me tired...
I reject your reality and substitute my own...
@usethebrain... You have very obviously rejected reality, yes.
UTBGGY: Most of us common folk hold doctors in high esteem, hold nurses in high esteem, hold medicine in high esteem.
Wouldn't know it by the comments of the people you run with, ma'am. Most of them regard doctors and nurses as one level up from pond scum. Which makes me wonder why they don't just learn to set bones and what not, rather than go and bug people they hate.
All: So apparently, the crowd of AOA thinks my name means that I have human test subjects, rather than being a memorial to some spoiled rotten pets. I bring this up because it amuses me. (Email address is the name of my first pet.)
"Chris…so you think every child who has been harmed by a vaccine has been represented? Did you actually raise your hand, or not?"
I answered the question. Those the ones who have made the effort to file a claim, and actually had some evidence, have been compensated. You only have yourself to blame for not reading the Vaccine Information Sheet and taking the effort to file a claim with the NVICP.
Those who have actually been harmed by the diseases have not, because there is no National Disease Injury Compensation Program. My son had seizures from a now vaccine preventable disease, and the neurologist would only say his resulting severe speech and behavior disabilities may or may not be the result of the seizures.
His very severe heart condition is definitely genetic.
If you have data that shows the vaccines cause more seizures than the diseases, then provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers.
How many of you are medical doctors? How many of you are pediatricians?
All about Poul:
Here's his nice Atlanta getaway, bought with STOLEN CDC RESEARCH MONEY (tax dollars), according to the Grand Jury indictment:
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2657-Briarlake-Rd-NE-Atlanta-GA-30345…
I plan to distribute the nice Inspector General's WANTED POSTERS (with photo) in the area. Just in case Poul tries to sneak back in town for a Southern vacay.
WANTED: FOR CRIMES AGAINST AMERICAN TAXPAYERS!
"OIG Fugitive: Poul Thorsen
Poul Thorsen
From approximately February 2004 until February 2010, Poul Thorsen executed a scheme to steal grant money awarded by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). CDC had awarded grant money to Denmark for research involving infant disabilities, autism, genetic disorders, and fetal alcohol syndrome. CDC awarded the grant to fund studies of the relationship between autism and the exposure to vaccines, the relationship between cerebral palsy and infection during pregnancy, and the relationship between developmental outcomes and fetal alcohol exposure.
Thorsen worked as a visiting scientist at CDC, Division of Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities, before the grant was awarded.
The initial grant was awarded to the Danish Medical Research Council. In approximately 2007, a second grant was awarded to the Danish Agency for Science, Technology, and Innovation. Both agencies are governmental agencies in Denmark. The research was done by the Aarhaus University and Odense University Hospital in Denmark.
Thorsen allegedly diverted over $1 million of the CDC grant money to his own personal bank account. Thorsen submitted fraudulent invoices on CDC letterhead to medical facilities assisting in the research for reimbursement of work allegedly covered by the grants. The invoices were addressed to Aarhaus University and Sahlgrenska University Hospital. The fact that the invoices were on CDC letterhead made it appear that CDC was requesting the money from Aarhaus University and Sahlgrenska University Hospital although the bank account listed on the invoices belonged to Thorsen.
In April 2011, Thorsen was indicted on 22 counts of Wire Fraud and Money Laundering.
According to bank account records, Thorsen purchased a home in Atlanta, a Harley Davidson motorcycle, an Audi automobile, and a Honda SUV with funds that he received from the CDC grants.
Thorsen is currently in Denmark and is awaiting extradition to the United States."
THEY ALSO HAVE A NICE MUG SHOT ON THE SITE
https://oig.hhs.gov/fraud/fugitives/profiles.asp
@usethebrains: does certified nurse-midwife count? I certainly was one for several years.
use thebrains...
So you admit that your objections to the one in a million figure are based entirely on your own prejudices, not on facts or evidence?
As for your complaints about the 10,000 vaccines, what Paul Offitt actually wrote, as you can read in the paper I believe you linked to, was:
Firstly it depends on whether those four assumptions are correct. Secondly, he was clearly talking about the immune system's ability to respond to large numbers of antigens without being overwhelmed, and my reading suggests he was probably right in his assumptions. It seems obvious to me that Offitt wasn't suggesting that injecting a child with 10,000 vaccines along with adjuvants, preservatives and contaminants at once would be harmless. In fact it seems that only someone extremely dim or with an agenda could possibly misinterpret what he wrote to mean that.
I'm tired of people like you making nonsense up and railing against people who don't unquestioningly accept your fictions. Personally I try to get to the truth using the best evidence available, not decide to believe something then selectively accept evidence depending on whether it supports my beliefs. As a great man once wrote, you are the easiest person to fool.
Not falling for Toto
Ummm.... Quick scientific lesson for you. The way science work is that, you take the entire literature in your domain of study, you iron out an hypothesis according to all the data you've acquired throught the review of the literature. Then, you iron out all the other hypothesis competing with your conclusion unless one hypothesis present a better explanation as compared to your original hypothesis (in which case you change your hypothesis) such as, when you think that Orac is a sockpuppet of Toto, do you have any evidence of that? I don't think so :), he's been here since 2006 at least, and toto appeared less than 2 weeks ago. Do you see any discrepancy between the traffic of this site as compared to 4 years ago (when Toto wasn't invented)? if Yes, prove that to me and I'll be convinced. Otherwise, you'll meet my killfile :P
Alain
Not falling for Toto,
Seeing as you're not being censored here after all, despite your original assumptions, how about you show us how a real, honest-to-god true "safe vaccine"-advocate presents compelling evidence and upholds honorable conduct while debating said evidence?
@UTBGGY:
Can I have a source for that? The evidence points to negative outcomes occurring even less often than that.
From all-caps Toto
Let's see...
Wakefield published his infamous MMR study in 1998. He was one among many people who was very vocal about the existence of a link between vaccination and autism.
He was not the first and he will not be the last. People have been complaining about vaccines since the very first ones in the 19th century. People have been complaining about Rock'n'Roll, video games and kids for a long time, too. Doesn't make them right.
And for the navel-gazing ones among our US readers, these people were not just Americans. You have vaccine refusers all around the world. Doesn’t make them right, but when enough people express their feelings about some topic, wise politics pay some attention to it.
So many health agencies around the world did the responsible thing when a potential risk is brought to their attention: let's investigate it.
Wakefiled study was not independently replicated and found seriously flawed (no control for PCR? Are you kidding me?)
But wait, it was mercury. Let's investigate it. No, it's too many too soon. Let's investigate it.
And again, and again, and again.
There was a benefit (or so the politics/health agencies thought): keeping the citizens' trust by listening to their concerns and removing something which was freaking them out, regardless of the actual risk.
Too bad there is no pleasing some people.
No big deal for the manufacturers: selling vaccines as single-dose units instead of multi-dose vials means more money for them.
It's more expensive for our health agencies, but make up your mind: are you really right now blaming them for addressing your concerns rather than ignoring them and sticking to the low-budget solution?
Damned if you do ("Ha ah, I was right; it's a cover-up"), damned if you don't ("They don't listen to me, it's a cover-up")
You are new in town, aren't you?
In nearly every post about vaccines, people talk about it. That question has been raised and addressed in the comments of a recent post about this whole Hooker/Wakefield kerkuffle..
So, the Government & Health authorities take a conservative approach and order the removal of an ingredient from vaccines...then follow up with a wide variety of studies to see if they made the right decision and if there was a problem....
We then find out that there wasn't a problem (in fact, no legitimate study has found any problems or connections at all) manufacturers have already moved on to different formulations & it wouldn't be cost-effective to go back (and as has been pointed out - single dose vials are more profitable anyway)....but for those areas of the world without proper refrigeration, there are still multi-dose vaccines available to keep up an effective program in the Third World.
Seems like we have the best of both worlds today, but the anti-vaccine folks won't be happy....seem incapable of being happy, with anything.
They have, but you just haven't paid attention. The decision was based on the safety data available at the time, and assumed that ethylmercury had a similar safety profile to methylmercury. For example, back at #217 I posted:
As the AAP has stated in this paper (PDF) published by the AAP last year (forgive the repetition, but it is apparently necessary):
Julian...
I can't help you. Your delusion is too strong. You see divinity where I see humanity.
@usethebrainsgodgiveyou: um, what? How is asking for proof of your claims "delusion"? And how does my request show that I see "divinity"?
Didn't you just admit you reject evidence-based reality in favor of stuff you have invented based on nothing but anecdotes?
We're demonstrably able to identify adverse events causally associated with routine vaccination that occur with extremely low incidence--the narcolepsy possibly associated with Pandemrix flu vaccine (1 in 16,000 doses), encephalopathy associated with MMR vaccine (1 case in every 1 million doses), etc..
If vaccination did cause autsm spectrum disorders with sufficient frequency to drive the observed increase in new diagnoses of ASD's over the past couple of decades the same surveillance that can detect events occurring in 1 out of 10,ooo-plus doses would have no trouble detecting this, yet none of the very large scale epidemiologic studies conducted by multiple independent investigators and publis health agencies in multiple nations has found any hint of such an association.
My 'god given brain' tells me there's a reason for that: no such causal association exists to be found.
Actually Toto, I did in my post at #277.
Try to keep up.
Vaccines have saved millions of lives...I am thankful for the difference they have made in the world. But we really don't know why some children are susceptible to harm, except maybe egg allergies.
The reason why I see it as your religion, is you have no doubt of their purity, of any evidence against them as an affront to the tenets of your religion. They are perfect in every way....one in million harmed, and at that, it's probably some weakness in the child.
Really, it is only mere religious belief that humans are not bio-identical clones and for pretty much everything ever tested there is someone who will be greater than 2 (or sometimes way more) standard deviations away from the average and sometimes that means they either may be harmed in a way that does not effect the vast majority of people or may be unharmable to something that would cause harm to the vast majority of people.
We know why egg allergies would harm. We don't know why some other kids are harmed. doesn't mean that kid is at fault, just that every population of everything ever tested has genetic variation and some variants (or epigentic variants or developmental quirks which are all even less predictable) have significant differences from the majority.
But it has to be unfounded beliefs and it has to be ebil intent to blame the victim if it doesn't conform to your opinions, I guess.
Oh, and that goes for every perfectly natural virus, bacteria, food, herb, or whatever you put in your body. Not just the artificial ones.
We don’t know why some other kids are harmed ....Jesus...she gets it!!
Blame the victim is what we do when we say it is less than one in a million because of Dravet's disease.
The reason why I see it as your religion, is you have no doubt of their purity, of any evidence against them as an affront to the tenets of your religion. They are perfect in every way
Given that Orac and the regular posters here bend over backwards to refrain from making blanket statements like "vaccines never do any harm" and "vaccines are 100% effective," where the Sam Hill are you coming from?
Italics fail. Curse you, non-existent preview function.
UTBGGY:Vaccines have saved millions of lives…I am thankful for the difference they have made in the world.
Liar.
UTBGGY: The reason why I see it as your religion, is you have no doubt of their purity, of any evidence against them as an affront to the tenets of your religion. They are perfect in every way….one in million harmed, and at that, it’s probably some weakness in the child.
No, we don't think they are perfect. The pertussis vaccine could use a *lot* of improvement. The HPV vaccine is tremendously expensive, and every so often the flu vaccine doesn't match up with the stuff going around. However, most of the people who badmouth vaccines are liars, grifters or sometimes just plain confused. The parents who are most active in anti-vax movements are odious perfectionists who can't deal with having an imperfect child. Take a look at your crowd sometime: they're notorious for being bullies, especially to parents who have lost children to VPDs. A number of them are straight-up liars who wouldn't know a fact if it bit them. And of course there's grifters like Wakey, who see a population ripe for fooling.
Someone explain to me how identifying a pre-existing medical condition as the possible cause of a vaccine reaction is blaming the victim? Did I miss something?
What 'harm', exactly, do you believe some children are susceptible that occurs as an adverse consequence of routine vaccination? Be specific.
Also if a child can be harmed by a vaccine, why wouldn't they be harmed even more by the actual disease?
I don't know, Chris....you tell me.
Let's do another epidemiological study on that....
It's taken 10-15 years for people to look at possible innate sensitivity. There will never be a vaccinated/unvaccinated study because too few people don't vaccinate at all....99.7% of people have used at least one vaccine.
So, it either happens so frequently that there is a massive cover-up (which is impossible, by any rational measure)....or it happens so infrequently that large-scale retrospective studies can't discern any pattern or cause from the background noise.
Mostly likely, even if we are talking about a susceptible subgroup (which has never been identified), it is so small that we'll never be able to determine a cause or identify common characteristics....which brings us back to serious reactions occurring at a rate of 1 in 1 mil or so (and most so rare that it cannot be determined if vaccines are the cause).
You getting it now, UTBTGGY?
"Blame the victim is what we do when we say it is less than one in a million because of Dravet’s disease."
Um did I say the person went out and got themselves Dravet's disease specifically to get themselves harmed.
No one can help what rare genetic variant they are born with.
But do I blame Valium and only Valium because a friend of mine has the reverse reaction to it and call for all Valium to be banned or changed only because of a 1 in a bazillion funny reaction (well actually about 1 in 10,000ish) and ignore all the problems that anxiety can cause people?
He had it for a medical procedure so he would tolerate the procedure better. They had to wait until he stopped bouncing off the walls like a cartoon Tasmanian Devil on meth before they could do anything at all with him.
FWIW don't know why doesn't mean that only the vaccine by itself is causing the problem in almost everyone else who doesn't have the weird issue that might interact in a bad way every millionth shot.
Pointing out a genetic cause for a condition is never "blaming the victim." That would be like blaming the parents when their child is diagnosed with Downs, for instance.
It isn't blame, it is relating the cause of a particular condition....
usethebrains: "I don’t know, Chris….you tell me"
They do much worse with the disease. Which is why it is recommended that those with mitochondrial disorders get vaccinated. Plus for those with immune disorders or undergoing cancer therapy that they be protected by community immunity.
There is absolutely no evidence that the vaccines cause more harm than the diseases. It is dishonest to keep focused on any risk from the vaccine, but ignoring the very real risks of the diseases.
There will never be a prospective vaccinated versus un-vacinated study, but not for the reason you suggest: it won't be done because it would be unethical to deliberately leave the un-vaccinated cohort susceptible to harm as a consequence of infection by measles, pertussis, varicella, polio, HepB, etc.
Fortunately it isn't necesary to conduct such studies to evaluate vaccine safety, since retrospective vaccinated versus unvaccinated studies can and have been done, often on very large scales.
usethebrains...
What are you talking about? I posted a whole list of known side-effects of vaccines with their relative frequency a couple of days ago, and now you have forgotten, and claim that I and other commenters deny these side-effects even exist? We were discussing the Vaccine Court and the thousands of cases it has compensated just yesterday. You either have a very short memory, or you are simply employing a straw man argument because that's all you have left.
It's generally religion that demands you believe things without any evidence, and it is you who has openly stated that you reject any evidence (reality) that conflicts with your closed-minded beliefs. You are projecting, it seems to me.
We don't know that they are harmed by vaccines at all, and in most cases the best evidence we have suggests they are not. That's what you don't appear to get.
Don't be silly, figuring out the true cause of a child's symptoms is not blaming the victim. Now that we understand that children with Dravet Syndrome would suffer encephalopathy with or without vaccines, but that they would react far worse to a VPD than to a vaccine, we know that vaccinating them is the best course of action. If we simply assumed that their symptoms were caused by vaccination, as you seem to suggest, we would be leaving them vulnerable to VPDs, and probable permanent disability of death.
It's interesting to see that you have descended into nasty sniping, just because you cannot support your position rationally, and claim it is those who are arguing from a rational position who are irrational. If what you claim is true, surely you have some good evidence for it (personal experience and anecdotes are not good evidence). If you don't, I suggest you have a long hard think about how you know what you think you know. It might be painful, but if you are truly interested in facing up to truth and reality I recommend it. On the other hand if you prefer living in fantasy-land, carry on as you are.
Naturally, *gunman* was the videographer. He slipped (and slid) right through because he was known, possibly in an official capacity??
def: videographer
The one who 'shoots' the picture.
For Pete's sake.
And you use a religious moniker. Ever heard of the deadly sin of Pride?
There is a genetic disease in my family, causing minor defects during the fetus' development (if you can call a missing heart valve "minor"). My sister and a few of my cousins' children got various forms of it.
It was liberating to have the diagnostic done, a decade back. This way, we could at last stop wondering if it was toxoplasmosis or whatnot.
It also made easier for us to accept and acknowledge that my sister is handicapped. Especially for my dad.
Recognizing that we have a few loose genes in our family is exactly the opposite of "blaming the victim". It's sharing the responsibility and acknowledging the vagaries of fate. Bad stuff happens to everybody, and this is the bad stuff which did happen to our family.
I just cannot fathom why people are so twisted about the idea that their progeny is inheriting their defaults as well as their qualities. Embarrassed, I would understand, but denying it?
You should look at what you say more carefully, all. It could be misconstrued.
One in a million harmed by vaccines, which can be given 10 000 at a time.
Peanuts are innocuous...we most all eat them, some daily! But to a person who has a peanut allergy...Parents whose son died of a peanut allergy in Georgia were on the news today. They didn't say they should rid the world of peanuts so no other child dies, but they are trying to make sure epi-pens that would save other children's lives are in every school.
Vaccines are like peanuts. If you do an epidemiological study on peanuts, it will "prove" that they are not responsible for the child's death. Because epidemiological studies are not meant to pick out single cases, but trends. Deaths/harm are seen as statistics, and an individual may not make it above the threshold of significance to the epidemiologist, and ability to prove causality is very difficult. But to that parent, epidemiological significance will not change what happened.
There is a group of 20-30 bloggers who belittle parents of children who have reactions to vaccines, because they believe the "herd" is more important than the individual. They have made vaccines their god, and will take no discussion of possible causality, and blame the parents of causing "death to millions" simply by saying their child was harmed. Luckily, few, if any of them are doctors, and it's hard to take their religion seriously.
I only began to trust medicine and vaccines again because my doctor told me the truth. Dr. B. Cabbiness is not an alternative doctor, who believes in special, questionable treatments will rid my kid of "vaccine damage". He is a pediatrician who specializes in special kids. He told me it was the pertussis component of Ben's DTwP that causes the HHE (Hypotonic- Hyporesponsive episode) when Ben was 2 months old. He told me the truth, that we don't really know all there is to know about vaccines. You will never hear that from the skeptics. It's against their religion
If you google christian and genetics, you will come across Francis Collins name. I heard a story that he told, how he was convinced to let go of atheism he had held on to. Get out a piece of 8 x 11 paper....take a pen and make a mark in the middle of it. Now, draw a circle going out to the far edges of the paper. You see the dot? That is what we know about science, about the universe. The circle is a very small representation of what we don't know. How arrogant to think you know everything that needs to be known...when all your really know is that small dot.
I think it is the influx of skepticism that has paralyzed science. Science isn't about knowing because that has an end, it's about forgetting everything you know.
usethebraingodgiveyou,
I think you're framing things incorrectly. There is no benefit in reinventing the wheel over and over again.
The way I see it, science is most definitely not about forgetting everything one knows - it is - if you want to diminish into abstract idioms - about being willing to admit when you are/were wrong. That means, requires actually, that we remember as much as possible.
And while the story about the dot makes a poignant picture, it's nothing but a poignant picture. I'll share with you another one...
Draw a large + in the middle of the paper. Then, draw new lines across each arm, making each arm a + as well. Repeat until bored, each time drawing smaller and smaller lines. Each line adds more stuff we know, and you can keep doing it infinitely, infinitely adding more stuff... But, anywhere you stopped, I believe that is as much as we know about the science and the universe today. We have a solid foundation of knowledge we can increase, but it will not suddenly turn everything on it's head - no matter what discoveries are made and what paradigm shifts are in store for us, they have to explain what we already know, what we have observed, what we can already predict. None of that is going anywhere.
usethebrainsgodgiveyou,
I'm still waiting for your evidence that the one in a million figure is wrong. I already explained that Paul Offitt made it crystal clear that he was talking about antigens, and I think he was right that our immune systems could cope with the antigens present in 10,000 vaccines at a time. They normally cope perfectly well with the billions of bacteria and viruses they encounter as soon as we pop out of the amniotic sac and enter the birth canal. If you insist on willfully and dishonestly misconstruing his words, that's on you.
This is all very interesting, but has nothing whatsoever to do with what you are arguing. It is worth noting that deaths from food allergies are far more common than those from vaccination.
Yes, people can have allergic reactions to vaccines, just as they can to peanuts. However, vaccines are given in a doctor's office where epipens are always available, as well as trained staff who can recognize anaphylaxis. As a result, peanuts are far more dangerous than vaccines (and, of course, have far, far fewer benefits).
That's nonsense. You can do epidemiological studies on peanut allergy, and many people have; its prevalence is similar to that of autism. This study for example, which found that Jewish children in the UK have a prevalence of peanut allergy is 10-fold higher than that of Jewish children in Israel.
If you did an epidemiological study looking at anaphylaxis and peanut consumption, it would pick it up, assuming a large enough sample of the population was used, just as autism caused by vaccination would have been picked up in the many studies that have been done, if it occurred more than very rarely indeed.
So you are saying that epidemiological studies cannot pick up very rare vaccine reactions, therefore vaccine reactions are far more common than epidemiological studies indicate? Do you do understand that doesn't make any sense at all?
I have every sympathy for those whose children are disabled for whatever reason, but it doesn't give people a free pass to make evidence-free claims about the incidence of vaccine injury. The herd consists of individuals, and yes, I think that a few vaccine-damaged children is far better than hundreds or thousands of very sick, hospitalized, permanently disabled or dead children, which is what we will see if the likes of AoA have their way.
For some reason you seem to think that children who may (or may not) be damaged by vaccines are more important than the many children who will most definitely be damaged by VPDs if vaccine uptake falls below herd immunity thresholds.
Do you have some sort of reading comprehension problem? I have already pointed out that I posted a list of vaccine injuries a day or two ago, with the risks of each. Yet you persist in claiming that we deny vaccine injuries exist. Why are you being so dishonest about this?
No one has accused anyone of causing death to millions just because they think their child was harmed by vaccination. What is potentially damaging to public health is when people claim that vaccine injuries are more common than dozens of well-designed studies tell us they are.
Luckily public health authorities all over the world concur with the opinions expressed here, and understand the risks and benefits.
No one is denying that vaccines can cause reactions like HHE, very rarely, but as this paper concluded:
From what you have written here, it seems unlikely that your son's problems are due to vaccines. HHE has no long-term sequelae, and Gerstmann Syndrome is probably due to a lesion in the parietal region of the brain; I can find no evidence of a link with vaccines.
It sometimes sucks having a disabled child, believe me I know, but it is a waste of energy trying to find someone or something to blame, when it is most likely simply bad luck. Responding by joining a campaign that, should it succeed, will result in hundreds or thousands more disabled children seems perverse to me.
Of course we don’t really know all there is to know about vaccines. We don't know everything there is to know about anything! That doesn't mean that the many studies that show serious vaccine reactions are extremely rare are wrong.
""Vaccines are like peanuts"
Yes, vaccines do make a tasty snack. Though they were even more delicious when they contained thimerosal.
I heard a story that he told, how he was convinced to let go of atheism he had held on to.
We don't know very much, therefore god.
OK.
It's like arguing "We don't know very much, therefore Santa Claus".
Of course we don’t really know all there is to know about vaccines. We don't know everything there is to know about anything! That doesn't mean that the many studies that show serious vaccine reactions are extremely rare are wrong.
I think you misunderstand atheism; it doesn't claim to know everything. I recommend Richard Dawkins' 'The God Delusion', in which he explains his position as an atheist:"'I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there". How is that arrogant? I think it is far more arrogant to simply make up stuff when we don't know, rather than admitting we don't know.
Science is paralyzed? How can anyone in the 21st century, surrounded by the most amazing technology, actually type those words?
When are you going to forget what you think you know about vaccine injuries, take off your blinkers and take a look at the evidence. Here's some for you to start with, this metaanalysis that included five cohort studies involving 1,256,407 children, and five case-control studies involving 9,920 children. Highlights:
Do you reject this metaanalysis? If so, why?
Although much remains to be learnt about HHE it would appear that there are no long-term sequelae and that children who have had an HHE can be revaccinated.
Krebs....there are no long term studies, but one, regarding HHE's. There are a total of 21 in all of pubmed if you use the search parameters for hypotonic hyporepsonsive episode. and Vaccine...I think you have to use the whole words for HHE. LIke the recent kerfluffle regarding the MMR and vaccines and African Americans, the 10-15 point IQ differential between verbal and performance is attributed to some of the kids being Hispanic. Any possible unconvenient number has a quasi-scientific guess as to why the numbers mimic the LD differential type. At any rate, it concerned 9 kids. According to a recent paper w/some governmental the DTaP decreased the numbers of HHE's from one in 1700 to one in 7000 (0.14 per thousand) although in the same paper it noted that the DTaP decreased HHE responses from 80 to 90%...so either that or the 1 in 1700 is wrong.
Anyhow.....for an incidence of 1 in 700 (90%off of 7000), which is only slightly less than the incident of severe autism which everyone is losing their minds over......We have one long term study.
One.
THANK YOU, JESUS....I'm so glad you mentioned Dawkins.
Are we speaking of the same neo-nazi who feels it is a parents duty to society to abort their Down Syndrome child?
@ Lawrence:
:"pointing out a genetic cause for a condition is never 'blaming the victim'"
True, but many people are extremely uncomfortable with the idea of genetic influences:
- AoA screams, "No way!' -esp Stagliano who has 3 daughters with autism and blames vaccines even though the youngest is not vaccinated ( it was due to Kim's own childhood vaccines).Or it was anti-biotics says MacNeil.
- I've personally heard parents who had children with SMI disavow genetic influence ( when I did outreach work) and blame teachers' scolding, rejection by peers or medications.
- a woo-meister believes that there are little or no genetic causes for cancer, CVD etc. It's all based on nutrition.
Perhaps there's fear of stigma or an attempt to attribute negative outcomes to external sources to preserve self-esteem or an illusion of control.
It reminds me a bit of the tales of primitive peoples attributing non-accidental death to magic or witchcraft. No one dies of natural causes.
Woo teaches that illness is caused by ingesting evil substances or being vaccinated with them- a child is better off left intact uncontaminated by taboo substances like mercury, gluten and caseine.
OBVIOUSLY these beliefs allow the person to believe that they have more control over events than reality would permit: only avoid the taboo and remain perfect or be cured.
Funny how reading about primitives is apropo here.
usethebrains...
So we simply invent a cause and pretend it has long-term sequelae when there is no evidence for this? I'm not clear what you are arguing here.
Just out of curiosity, how many of his books have you read?
How does this make him a "neo-nazi"? My point was that even the arch-atheist Dawkins doesn't hold the position your straw-man atheist does.
I'll probably regret wading into this swamp, but what the heck... Some years ago I personally set up a prenatal screening program for Down's Syndrome, wrote the risk calculation software and integrated it with the lab computer system, visited other hospitals to see how they went about it, liaised with the antenatal department midwives etc,,. It was in use for ten years and screened about 50,000 pregnancies, detecting around 40 Down's pregnancies, though I don't know how many were terminated (not my department).
I am proud to have helped pregnant women to make an informed decision about whether to terminate their pregnancy. I suppose that makes me a Nazi too.
I personally disagree with Dawkins about the morality of knowingly bringing a fetus with Down's to term, I think it is a decision the parents should make, but I support his right to his opinion, and I think he has a point.
If you aren't religious and don't believe that humans have a soul, I don't see why you would think an abortion before 20 weeks (which was our cut-off) is immoral. I can also understand why parents want a healthy child - when my son was born I would have given my right arm for him to have been able-bodied, instead of confined to a wheelchair his whole life.
If you are religious and do believe humans have a soul, why is it wrong to do your best to provide your child's soul with a body that is healthy as possible? I know people with Down's Syndrome can live productive lives, but I bet they would prefer to have been born with the regular number of chromosomes. Why is it OK for God to abort fetuses with abnormalities but not humans? God (or nature if you prefer) is, after all, the greatest abortionist, terminating about 70% of all pregnancies.
UTBGGY: only began to trust medicine and vaccines again because my doctor told me the truth. Dr. B. Cabbiness is not an alternative doctor, who believes in special, questionable treatments will rid my kid of “vaccine damage”. He is a pediatrician who specializes in special kids.
Yeah, he totally sounds like a guy to trust. He's not going to ride off one fine day into the sunset with your savings account.
UTBGGY: Science isn’t about knowing because that has an end, it’s about forgetting everything you know.
No, it is about knowing. It's basically like building a house and adding onto it perpetually. We know most of the foundations, like the theory of evolution (right, another thing you don't believe in) or the theory of the big bang. These might be scrapped someday, but so far they've stood the test of time. And if anyone says they have the *truth* about anything and it's their exclusive property, chances are they're usually lying.
UTBGGY: There is a group of 20-30 bloggers who belittle parents of children who have reactions to vaccines, because they believe the “herd” is more important than the individual.
It's not that we belittle them so much as we bemoan them. It's fun to have a little poke at some of the more prominent ones- Ms. Dachel, the cult leader for instance- but it's more important to have the facts out there.
And I think it sailed waay over that tiny head of yours that the 'herd' is made up of individuals. Go walk in an old graveyard sometime- I guarantee you'll see lots of gravestones that mark where tiny little coffins were put in. Those kids were individuals too once, before their lives were cut short by pertussis, diptheria, measles and mumps- all those diseases you love.
Kaymarie: I'm a little bit scared to try valium for that reason.
I think of Ballastexistenz, who introduced me to the idea of "useless eaters". Aktion T-4 would have been proud of Mr. Dawkins.
So, do I wait until my child has the body I want him to have before I allow him to live? I think God is Down Syndrome...
Now you're showing your true colors. The right of a woman to terminate her pregnancy is exactly the same as euthanasia and genocide, in your warped world-view, isn't it? That's the second Godwin in this conversation - by rights I should just give up trying to get through to your closed-minded, prejudiced, hate-filled brain.
You haven't read anything by Dawkins, have you? You're just going by what prejudiced people have written about him. That's bigotry pure and simple.
I suggest you start with 'The Blind Watchmaker' and you really should read 'The God Delusion'. Dawkins makes a very good case for a secular humanist morality that bears no resemblance to the fantasy version of atheism you seem to have acquired.
Are you one of those people who believes a woman should die of an ectopic pregnancy because it's God's will? Or that a woman who has been raped should carry her pregnancy to term?
A fetus is not a child, and no one is telling you what to do. I am arguing for personal choice and Dawkins is expressing a view about the morality of knowingly bringing a disabled child into the world. I know these are controversial areas, but a knee-jerk accusation of Nazism and of believing in "useless eaters" really isn't helpful.
God is trisomy-21? That makes about as much sense as the rest of your comments here.
Kreb: This study for example, which found that Jewish children in the UK have a prevalence of peanut allergy is 10-fold higher than that of Jewish children in Israel.
Off topic, but I find that kind of wild. How did they define prevalence? Due to number of allergic reactions treated? It's possible that peanut butter/peanut products aren't as readily available. (Funny the things we miss; when I went to Ecuador, I missed peanut butter and root beer the most.)
UTBGGY: Way to pick on an autistic blogger. It's always been a source of morbid amusement to me how Christians categorize disabled children: you have the 'angel babies' (Down's, cerebral palsy, immunodeficient) and then the 'devil children (autistic children,** fetal alcohol, "attachment disorder,"* OCD and behavioral emotional difficulties) and neither allow any space for an actual person to grow.
Since a lot of disabled people end up being killed by their caretakers, I support prenatal screening. Some parents can't hack caring for a disabled child, and even the best parents need time to prepare and adjust.
*In my opinion, attachment disorder was invented as an excuse to justify abuse.
** I do not subscribe to this philosophy, and I apologize to any autistic people on the thread if it seems I do.
Kreb: The right of a woman to terminate her pregnancy is exactly the same as euthanasia and genocide, in your warped world-view, isn’t it?
Well, given that UBGGY is a Christian, that's kind of standard. There aren't many Christians who think that women matter as much as fetuses. A few, but not a majority. God wants everyone, but especially women to be unhappy.
PGP, if you want to prove that atheists aren't as bad as people say they are, don't go around proving them right!
PGP,
It is odd isn't it? They used a parental questionnaire to measure prevalence of peanut allergy and consumption and concluded:
This may be yet another case of things being counterintuitive, like those parents who avoid vaccines because of the risks and end up with a child dead (or permanently damaged) from whooping cough.
The American love of peanut butter baffles me. It's OK, I suppose, but it's nowhere near as nice as Marmite ;-)
Has anybody introduced you to the idea of context? Or reason? Or the idea of the history of ideas?
The idea that it's socially and/or politically necessary to eliminate the "unfit" -- whether by slaughter, as in the Third Reich, or by compulsory sterilization, as in this country -- isn't just a naturally occurring and therefore evergreen feature of elites. It arose and flourished in the early 20th century, in the context of then-current thinking about -- inter alia -- imperialism, industrial modernity and evolution.
Elites have figured out that there are less time-, energy- and cost-intensive ways of staying on top of the heap since then.
And no, Kissinger never said anything remotely like that.
Please join the rest of the class in the present.
He said it would be immoral, not that the brave new supremacist world of the future required it.
Also, the ideas of proportion, just comparison, and hierarchical power: Have you met them?
Because I have. So I can just reject, curse and scorn Richard Dawkins for being too blinded by self-regard to realize that he knows nothing about the moral implications of any woman's pregnancy. Unless he impregnated her. Arguably.
What a fool.
Your prerogative, afaic. I'm pro-choice on both scores.
What a profoundly offensive and bigoted statement.
Incidentally, between 73 and 83 percent of Americans identify themselves as Christian. And about 70 percent support legal abortion. (Meaning: "They don't think Roe v. Wade, should be overturned. The details are a little more conflicted.)
Both of those things have been more or less the case at the same time for close to half a century by now.
The same observation was made re: pet allergies. It was subsequently found that early exposure to pet dander was actually protective against allergies contrary to the popular recommendation to limit pet exposure in infancy.
Alas, I have found that I disagree with you on something...Marmite. I'll take peanut butter any day.
I've avoided discussing any of the silly statements by "usethebrains", because we have already had this discussion about her child's episode of HHE on Seth Mnookin's blog, a while back. Read Mnookin's blog carefully...it's the relating of the story of the whoppers Barbara Loe Fisher told about her son's supposed reaction to whole cell pertussis vaccine...and how she "happened to remember her son's reaction" after viewing a television program about vaccines. She testified in front of Congress and no one ever questioned her about that story which launched her career.
Scroll down to see the many comments posted by "usethebrains/Rose" and her shtick of sliming science bloggers including Orac. Now compare those comments to the nasty comments she made about Orac on this thread and on another thread.
http://blogs.plos.org/thepanicvirus/2012/09/13/the-whole-cell-pertussis…
Now, we have "usethebrains" who comes here and admits she has no education in science, no science background, no relevant employment in any health care field, yet takes the opportunity to slam our host Orac.
If you don't like Orac's tone and you don't understand the science behind vaccines, I suggest that you are either incredibly dense or you are a troll.
Kreb: Huh. I would have thought that the lack of peanut allergies was due to less peanut consumption, not more. But it does make sense- more exposure means the immune system will recognize it and not mount a response.
Ann: Incidentally, between 73 and 83 percent of Americans identify themselves as Christian. And about 70 percent support legal abortion. (Meaning: “They don’t think Roe v. Wade, should be overturned. The details are a little more conflicted.)
Both of those things have been more or less the case at the same time for close to half a century by now.
And yet, I can maybe name *one* prominent Christian who considers themself sort of pro-choice. (Jim Wallis, although his support is 'I don't like it, but it should be legal.)
There aren't any pro-choice activists who talk about their faith in public. However, every anti-choice activist won't shut up about their faith and how it guides them.
GF: if you want to prove that atheists aren’t as bad as people say they are, don’t go around proving them right!
Well, I can't think of much God approves of, so it seems that fundamentalists must lead a fairly joyless existence. A happy woman is God's worst nightmare.
In one list of sins I listed the following: music, reading or writing while female, dancing, going outside while female, looking up, education, and of course, sex. On the approved list: picketing clinics and funerals, sermons, violence, wars. Note how short the second list is.
lilady: "Scroll down to see the many comments posted by “usethebrains/Rose” and her shtick of sliming science bloggers including Orac. Now compare those comments to the nasty comments she made about Orac on this thread and on another thread. "
Le sigh. I actually thought I got her to actually care about those of us who kids were injured by diseases and had genetic disorders.
Obviously something else changed her mind. It seems she is back to thinking that kids like mine who have genetic health conditions deserve injuries from the diseases.
Because injuries from vaccines are so much more important than injuries from diseases. Even though the latter occur more frequently.
I did, bonehead.
There aren’t many Christians who think that women matter as much as fetuses.
Every so often I start to feel sorry for you but somehow you invariably ensure that doesn't last very long.
Shay: All right then, show me a feminist- still living and active in politics- who's pro-choice AND publicly identifies herself as a Christian. (Hilary Clinton doesn't count, as she'd say anything to win an election.) I doubt you could find one. I'm not saying what I did to troll- most public Christians are on record as being part of the keep'em barefoot and pregnant brigade.
In the United States, the official, institutional position of:
The Episcopal Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, the Presbyterian Church, the Reformed Church, the Reformed Christian Church, the Disciples of Christ, and the Community of Christ
is pro-choice.
So possibly you should consider whether using whomever you can think of off the top of your head as your representative sample might be inclining you to confirmation bias.
Generally, PGP doesn't make any other kind.
She appears to think that making big declarations based on pathetically slim evidence shows her to be extra-intelligent, or something like that.
She is blind to how she really appears to everyone: as pathetically self-deluded as any woo-believer who ever waltzed in here announcing "There was this doctor who told himself 'I'm gonna exercise 'healing intent' towards the experimental mice' and both his experimental mice and the control mice lived and that PROVES THAT ENERGY HEALING IS THE WAVE OF THE FUTURE!!1!!"
Ballestexistenz is the name of an autistic woman. I'd never heard of the term before. She prepared me for the trip to the Holocaust Museum. Matt Carey just did a post on, I think it was a statue or something, the German people had built in honor of the victims of the Aktion T-4. The final solution began with a legalization of mercy killing by Hitler signing a document that gave certain doctors the ability to decide who was worthy of life. Can you see how I would make the connection? Dawkins tweeted something on the order of it should, well, here it is. http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/aug/21/richard-dawkins-apologis… " It only takes a spark....I don't remember if a hairlip was considered "defective" enough....How we hate all that isn't perfect and within our control when we refuse to see anothers humanity.
"If your morality is based, as mine is, on a desire to increase the sum of happiness and reduce suffering, the decision to deliberately give birth to a Down's baby, when you have the choice to abort it early in the pregnancy, might actually be immoral from the point of view of the child's own welfare." Dawkins said. I guess only moral people get to decide who is happy, and who is not. What a nice guy. If you are going to deify someone with intellect try someone who isn't quite so sloppy. I've read, and like Carl Sagan.
There was a study done regarding Down Syndrome "sufferers" feelings regarding their quality of life. Ninety percent of saw their lives as fruitful, and they considered themselves happy.
Ballestexistenz, who believes in a womans right to choose, is also afraid that "autism prevention" is a misnomer for selective abortion of handicapped children, especially autistic children. She was initial in starting the website http://archive.autistics.org/ in reaction to her feeling that Cure Autism Now was looking for a biological marker so autistic babies could be aborted before they inconvenienced their parents. She is a lovely writer. She, and Larry Arnold, were the first people I met (online) who were autistic. They both, I think, claim to be Christian. I know Larry does. I saw the people they were, and decided no matter what Ben's outcome, if he came out half as good as them, I'd be delighted!
I think God is Autistic, too, if that accounts for anything. He said, whenever you do anything for the least of these, you do it for _me_. Autistics, Down Syndrome....all. When Robert Frost speaks of the "trial by existence"...he tells of heaven where "the tales of earth's unhonored things lie nobler there than neath the sun." Not angels...but teachers, as all children are teachers to we adults who think ourselves so wise.
I thought the Methodists were pro choice too.
Ann: In the United States, the official, institutional position of:
The Episcopal Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, the Presbyterian Church, the Reformed Church, the Reformed Christian Church, the Disciples of Christ, and the Community of Christ
is pro-choice.
That's the first I've heard of it. I should note that most of my exposure to churched people is through the media- and if you've got a hundred silent people who are pro-choice vs. twenty anti-choice people with loudspeakers, how are you going to know which side the silent people are on?
It's like with the anti-vax people- most of them are loud, obnoxious and generally awful, so if I ran across a polite one, I'd be really surprised.
I shouldn't judge Dawkins. I've just always thought he was an elitist, and kind of mean-spirited. Why don't you read more Sagan?
Ballastexitenz is the first autistic adult I had ever heard of when I was allowed to join the Autism Hub in ...2006, I think. She saw "Cure Autism Now" as a euphemism for "Kill autistics before they have a chance to breathe", and her name is just a hyper-awareness that autistics days may be numbered. You might look at http://archive.autistics.org/ She and Larry Arnold were the first autistic adults I ever read or communicated with. They gave me hope that if Ben was anything like them, and did as much to help others, to hold up their peeps....I believe they both are christian, not that it matters. I thought the Methodist church was also pro choice. There are atheists who are also against abortion...not that that matters, either.
I may seem rattled, but you hardly give me a chance to be breathe. I feel a little bit like a junior high science project, but you haven't used the hair spray yet...
oops...see...rattled.
I feel like a bug being pinned to the styrofoam alive.
He is so you have to compartmentalise him. Blind Watchmaker and God Delusion are hard but good reads.
I just have to tell you one more story, my basis for God being Downs...a story Ballastexitenz told of a deaf person being asked if they were excited to go to heaven, where they could hear like everyone else.
"In heaven, " she said "God signs."
I know another Christian woman who has the most profoundly disabled children I have ever seen. She cusses like a sailor, I mean BBBAAAAAAAAAAADDDD...but it is so funny! She seem very strong, and very joyful. It is typically the parents who look for pity that frighten me. I hope to God you don't think I'm looking for pity. That is the only mal-label you could give me that would cut.
No, usethebrains: it won't. If it could, you wouldn't need to enclose the word prove in quote marks.
None of which identify HHE as anything other than a known but rare adverse events associated with vaccination, and none of which report persistent neuological or cognitive impairment occuring as a result of vaccine associated HHE, and none of which conclude that the relative risk of HHE associated with vaccination (pertussis or otherwise) arguues against routine vaccination.
UTBGGY: I hope to God you don’t think I’m looking for pity.
Well, you're either looking for pity or trying to pick a fight. Why else do anti-vaxxers go on the internet?
@ usethebrains...How about you engage the neurons in your brain that G-d gave you, before you post your silly comments?
"Ballestexistenz is the name of an autistic woman. I’d never heard of the term before. She prepared me for the trip to the Holocaust Museum. Matt Carey just did a post on, I think it was a statue or something, the German people had built in honor of the victims of the Aktion T-4....."
Um, no. It wasn't a statue or something, it is a blue glass memorial wall; if you had opened the link to the NY Times article which Matt Carey provided, you would have known that:
http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2014/09/04/every-human-life-is-worth-l…
".....It only takes a spark….I don’t remember if a hairlip was considered “defective” enough….How we hate all that isn’t perfect and within our control when we refuse to see anothers humanity....."
If you are going to use that derogatory term for individuals who were born with a cleft lip, you might as well get the spelling correct (harelip), which describes the natural cleft that rabbits and hares have, which exposes their front teeth and their gums.
On another thread you stated that you made a claim for your son's HHE episode, before the United States Court of Federal Claims (Vaccine Court). Was your child awarded damages for this purported "vaccine injury"?
Lilady, you'll probably say I'm lying, because I recall Matt saying once that could be checked on. I've looked for that link. I was under the impression that I was, from the multitude of correspondence that I got. But I don't recall ever having to give medical records over, maybe I did.
Interestingly, the law group refused me at first because I wouldn't chelate Ben. Then, later it was no longer a pre-requisite.
Are you aware of the link to the name of those represented in the Autism Omnibus proceedings? I'd like to know....doesn't make any difference, but still.
Very interesting as since when would a law firm engage in making a non necessary medical procedure a pre-requisite for taking a case on? Not only that but attorneys for an NVICP case wouldn't require such a thing.
I don't really want to contribute to derailing this thread any more than I already have, so I'll restrict my response to brains to the following..
Not really. The argument that abortion for pregnancies that would result in a disabled baby leads straight to Auschwitz doesn't hold water.
Termination of pregnancies if, "the child was likely to be severely physically or mentally handicapped" has been legal in the UK for the past 47 years, and we haven't yet started euthanizing people, or herding them into gas chambers. How long does it take to slide down that slippery slope?
Separating the act of terminating a pregnancy from ensuring a healthy able-bodied child, if someone developed a natural supplement that a woman could take during pregnancy that would ensure the child didn't have Down's, would that be acceptable? Isn't that just as discriminatory? What about taking folic acid to prevent neural tube defects?
This is a difficult and emotional area where people have very different opinions. Please avoid accusing people of being Nazis. It really doesn't help a civilized discussion of anything.
UTBGGY - my goodness, you are all over the map aren't you? Feel free to take a break if you need time to collect your thoughts.
Folks have bent over backwards to help you understand the science behind vaccines and the scientific process in general (along with some history, philosophy and reading comprehension) and you just don't bother trying. Instead you keep trying the Ethel Merman tactic: making up in volume (or more accurately frequency) what you lack in stature (or, in this case, critical thinking skills).
Please, I'm sure your child needs something from you, go pay attention to him.
I didn't answer your question. No....I wasn't awarded any damages. At the time it would have been used to send him to special schooling for kids with learning disabilites.
lilady: Isn't it 'cleft palate' or are those two different things?
UTBGGY: I'm sorry, but there is no way God has Downs or almost any other disability.
People with DS are known for being happy and loving- God is known for being dour and hateful. I'd buy a bipolar deity.
PGP Clefts can be just the lip (seen from the outside) or just the palate (only see in the roof of the mouth) or both
PGP...my reasoning was the opposite. Thank you.
There's the one about, what you do for the least of these, you do for _me_. I can't think of many people considered more "least of these" than a Down's Syndrome kid is to some. In another way, God is love ....Can you imagine God having a smile like that? "My ways are not your ways..." Maybe we really don't know what perfection is. Maybe God is Autistic, and woefully lacking a theory of mind, because that is egocentric and they aren't.. Autistics do tend to mirror how they are treated. And if they aren't aggressive, they usually take it inside and damage themselves rather than hurt another, dying early because of crippling depression.They are tender. Or maybe severe CP, where one is daily dependent on others for their very lives, and would die within days without love. Sappy, I guess.
I only have a couple more things.
Forget Everything You Know....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uq-FOOQ1TpE Jacob was in special ed up to fifth grade. I don't know that he talks about that...but his ma just knew how to treat him...respectfully. Here is an example of Science gone awry...Applied Behavioral Analysis, which is how most autistic kids are "treated" these days in public schools. Which is why more and more are homeschooled. @#$% social skills and being indistinguishable from their peers when you are the low dog on the totem pole.. Mhmmmm....Sciency.
This is the only long term study on HHE....in 1989. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=hypotonic+hyporesponsive+episo…
Initially, kids with autism are very low on the verbal, and then it can turn around if they are more aspergish-ish.
"This life, which had been the tomb of his virtue and of his honour, is but a walking shadow; a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
William Shakespeare
I was looking for a "self-defecating" (which Ben said, the first time, by accident) quote about a happy little idiot,but found that instead.
But to end: another aspergian, or so they say:
Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself.
Mark Twain
.
One more thing. I took my moniker just to piss off atheists. I figured out Simon Baron Cohen was an atheist, and he called my son evil, lacking empathy, and he had the science to prove it.. Sciency...
And then old lady Frith is calling our kids "fairies" and "aliens" and I though F.U and the horse you rode in on, lady...and she's quoting Dawkins (shouldn't that be dick-ens?)and says the "intense world theory" is rubbish just because she didn't come up with it, And ABA....and ritalin....and all that crap. And kids who are using technology to communicate must be being facilitated by their parents. Sciency....
My son is brilliant. It won't be easy but he will be okay. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
And then we have the Dr.'s Eide, who are christian, who have lifted us up so high and are bringing in a contingent of people who have survived being square pegs, and have written a book about the gifts of dyslexia (that and autism are often intertwined...or confused.)
I don't care if you think I'm stupid, I don't care if I am. That's just the way it is.
And if that effing HHE hurt my son ala Gershwins and I find out, somebody is going to pay.
Kaymarie: Thank you. My grandpa had both (or maybe still has), so that's why I got confused. Doesn't help that they're used almost interchangeably among the lay population. Don't worry, Grandpa's still alive, he just had corrective surgery when young.
UTBGGY: There’s the one about, what you do for the least of these, you do for _me_. I can’t think of many people considered more “least of these” than a Down’s Syndrome kid is to some. In another way, God is love ….Can you imagine God having a smile like that? “My ways are not your ways…” Maybe we really don’t know what perfection is. Maybe God is Autistic, and woefully lacking a theory of mind, because that is egocentric and they aren’t.. Autistics do tend to mirror how they are treated. And if they aren’t aggressive, they usually take it inside and damage themselves rather than hurt another, dying early because of crippling depression.They are tender. Or maybe severe CP, where one is daily dependent on others for their very lives, and would die within days without love. Sappy, I guess.
Are you on something or just living in a bizarro universe? 'Cause you're basically suggesting that kids with DS are also born homophobic, judgey, and with a hatred of fun
I don't think you've ever met anyone with autism or Asperger's. Some have bad social skills, at least in the first ten years of life, but a lot manage to turn things around. I doubt Mark Twain had Aspergers- he was well-known for being very social. And boy, you really have a hard-on for hating scientists, don't you. Guess that goes with the territory.
That's not the quote from MacBeth that I remember.
They say? Who is "they"?
Yes. But it's spurious.
I'll try again.
First of all, "the final solution" was, specifically, "to the Jewish question."
Second, that decree didn't start anything. It was part of a program that was central to Nazi idealogy, which was explicitly eugenicist.
Third, there's a very consequential difference between a totalitiarian dictator enacting policy and a C-list public intellectual responding to somebody's tweet.
Fourth, making it social policy to kill (or otherwise eliminate) the unfit is not as voguish nowadays as it was in the late 19th and early 20th century, when it was not uncommonly quite a popular concept among reputable, educated people everywhere. Including in this country, which had a robust eugenics movement before Nazi Germany did.
In fact,.it's been a crime all over the world since 1948. "Genocide," to be precise.
And finally:
The ruling classes, to which Dawkins does not belong, therefore no longer have a reason or motive to think of some, any or all members of this or that group as "useless eaters."
There's nothing in it for them. No gains to be gotten.
_________________
^^All of which renders the idle, ill-considered sentiment that flows from the fingers of Richard Dawkins into the public sphere via the miracle of the internet so very, very different from the Nazi's racial hygiene policies that they effectively have nothing in common.
There's no threat. So stop indulging your fears.You're just committing acts of terrorism against yourself.
________________
Hope that helps. Let me know if it was unclear.
"One more thing. I took my moniker just to piss off atheists."
And to annoy those of us who are irritated by illogical tense use, even though we create them with typos.
brains,
It doesn't p!ss me off, it makes me laugh every time I see it. I originally assumed it was ironic, based on what you have posted here, but it seems you are serious.
He's a practicing Jew, not an atheist.
Where has Simon Baron-Cohen ever described autistic children as "evil"? This review of his book 'The Problem of Evil' makes it clear that he doesn't; evil requires malice, and these children have none.
You do understand that these are real people you are so nastily accusing of being Nazis and of calling autistic people "evil"?
Again, where has Uta Frith ever described autistic children as “fairies” or “aliens”? She may have suggested that historically autistic children may have been assumed to be “fairies” or “aliens”, but that is very different.
You don't seem to understand nuance, or or conditional clauses come to that. As with what Dawkins wrote about Down's pregnancies, you didn't see the "if" and the "might" and the "early in the pregnancy", and think about the issues, you went straight to "Dawkins wants to kill disabled babies! He's a Nazi! He's an elitist!"
If I understand you, it seems you have grossly misunderstood what some scientists have written about autism and on that basis you have decided that atheists are evil, even though at least one of them isn't an atheist at all.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't ABA currently appear to be the only effective therapy for autism? I suppose you would prefer chelation and attachment therapy.
More knee-jerk evidence-free assertions. Have you talked to parents of children with ADHD who have found ritalin to have transformed their lives?
In most cases facilitated communication has undoubtedly been parents or other carers fooling themselves. For example, this review concluded:
Are you suggesting that this isn't true?
I'm glad to hear that, really, but don't be too quick to dismiss science-based treatments that might help him.
You seem to have acquired some very bizarre beliefs about atheist scientists devaluing autistic children. I don't think anyone here would disagree that autistic (and dyslexic) individuals often have rare gifts, and I'm quite sure we all agree they deserve the same love and respect as any other person.
You clearly aren't stupid. I do think you have misunderstood a great deal of what you have read, and in other cases you have just uncritically swallowed what you have read on antivaccine or alternative health sites. There's a lot of misinformation out there, and you need to check your facts before making some of the serious accusations you have here.
Who is going to pay? Are you going to spend your whole life full of anger and bitterness, looking for someone to blame for your son's condition? That's going to make you very unhappy, I promise you. Why not just accept him the way he is, and move on?
See the first eight words of his quote?
Then why is that your guess?
It's a stupid thing to say. Thoughtless, in every sense of the word. He doesn't know what he's talking about.
But happily, from the perspective of people who don't have to sit next to him at dinner parties or anything, that's all it is.
(a) Don't personalize.
(b) He's also a man, a Jew, and a Cambridge don. Are you going to start trying to piss them off, too?
(c) That's not even remotely what he says.
ABA isn't always punitive. Ritalin isn't always crap. And facilitated communication can be fraudulent.
Ann: Ritalin isn’t always crap.
It depends on the person. Like with anti-depressants, there are people it doesn't work on.
Hence the isn't always qualifier. I don't know why I bother though.
And here I thought it was to try to piss off people who do that noun–verb agreement thing.
Well, usethebrainsgodgiveyou, you successfully annoyed this Christian.
Did anyone actually understand what "usethebrains" stated about her child's reaction to a vaccine, the claim she did or did not file in the Vaccine Court, and, her religious beliefs?
Could someone interpret those statements for me, so that I might figure out if I am pissed off with her?
I figured out Simon Baron Cohen was an atheist, and he called my son evil, lacking empathy, and he had the science to prove it
Dr Baron-Cohen has said no such thing.
And then old lady Frith is calling our kids “fairies” and “aliens” and I though F.U and the horse you rode in on, lady
That is not what Uta wrote. Your deliberate twisting of other people's words goes beyond "bad faith" into the territory of "bare-faced lying".
There is a total of 45 if one omits the "vaccine."
Or something.
You've got to be joking me....
"First of all, “the final solution” was, specifically, “to the Jewish question.”"
It began with the death of Baby Bauer in a 'mercy killing'. What it became was the final solution. But how it began was the mercy killing of a handicapped child.
If the elitists don't exist, what are autistics so afraid of? How many of you are autistic?
I can't believe the things you say...."You've never met an autistic in your life"? So now, you are authorities on autism, too? Is there anything you don't know?
Attacking singular people is fun, isn't it? I feel like the kid on the playground ....the autistic kid. Thanks for the lesson in empathy.
Even to making fun of my spelling and English. Thanks for the empathy exercise for the intellectually disabled. Corrections of everything. I'm glad I kept you busy for a while so you left someone else alone.
This isn't science.
Science isn't about attacking people.
I don't know what this is...
This is about getting the last word and making fools of people...Gray, I never said I was Christian. I don't even know what that is by the definitions brought forward here...I don't recognize it.
And I am hate filled?
I'm glad you can laugh in my memory. Now I know what my son deals with.
the worst one was about me demonizing autistics over downs....that should get some special award.
If my son came in here, you would destroy him for his spelling. That's ....so fucking elitist.
And tell autistic people everywhere who think he is major a$$hole that SBC didn't call them evil.
the worst one was about me demonizing autistics over downs….that should get some special award.
If my son came in here, you would destroy him for his spelling. That’s ….so frigging elitist. (My comment was awaiting moderation because I used the cuss word. God, that's funny...
And I asked for it, didn't I? I deserved it. Just like those autistic kids.
I feel stupid for having so many links in a row...but IF I answered all your belittlement's towards me, I've got about 30-left to go. I won't back down.
this isn't science. I used to love science.
alright, let the poking begin again....
the sky is bleu....
and GO!
brains,
You tell me, you're the one unjustly accusing "singular people" of being Nazis and of describing autistic people as "evil", "fairies" and "aliens" when that clearly isn't true. Maybe you have spent so long in the company of people who accept as given that Dawkins and other atheists are the Devil etc that you have forgotten that he, Baron-Cohen and Frith are people too. That doesn't excuse you from not bothering to check what Baron-Cohen really said, or what religion he follows, or from reading what Dawkins actually said (you even quoted it) and addressing what you disagree with instead of just shouting "Nazi!".
I have lost count of the number of demonstrable lies you have posted here, many of them offensive. Can't you see that might annoy people? Especially when someone takes the time and trouble to explain why what you have posted isn't true, yet you just continue repeating the same nonsense, "One in one million children are harmed by vaccines…10,000 vaccines at a time…Oy…that makes me tired…" , or claiming that allowing abortion for fetal defects leads to genocide, when there are many countries where this has been legal for half a century or more, justifying your divorce from the truth with some inanity like, "I reject your reality and substitute my own…."
If I accused you of murdering someone, and you produced solid evidence that you didn't, and I continued describing you as a murderer, justifying it with, "I reject your reality and substitute my own….". Wouldn't that annoy you or upset you?
You behavior looks to me like a typical troll's, deliberately posting falsehoods to get a reaction, then acting all butt-hurt when you get one. Stating that you chose your pseudonym with the specific intent of irritating people, and then complaining when people take the p!ss out of it? Poor you.
You never listened to me....you only criticized me.And you get all butt hurt anytime I treat you the way you treat me. And it's been intimated I am a murderer because I say....why didn't anyone look into this?
Uta Frith DID call kids that...Do I have to look it up to show you evidence? Autistics feel highly slighted from SBC....do you want me to lead you to the tweets and the blogs started? How about the kids who started typing independently after using FC for years....would you read anything I sent? Did you read anything I linked to?
I don't lie. I may be confused but I don't lie.
You goad people, and then when they get upset, you get all butt hurt and whiny. You are no better than me.
Now start bringing up everything I said like a whiny baby and use it as proof that I am the mean one.
Let's begin with butt hurt....what exactly do you mean by that? Is that a special terminology in science that I'm not aware of?
usethebrains...,
Where specifically did Simon Baron-Cohen describe autistic people as "evil"? If you are going to make libelous, defamatory statements like that, you had better be able to back them up.
By the way, I got the name of SBC's book wrong above, it should be 'The Science of Evil'. Nowhere in it does SBS describe autistic people as evil, in fact his affection for people with autism is clear - his own sister had an ID.
Uta Frith DID call kids that…Do I have to look it up to show you evidence?
Yes, that would be nice.
ID and autism are not synonymous. If his affection is clear, why do they dislike him so much? Shouldn't someone explain to them that even though it is a book about evil and he compares them to evil people and now so does society in general----and goes all out how they lack empathy.....I guess you always hurt the ones you love. Shouldn't someone tell them? He tried, and when they argued he said, "SCIENCE!"
Ohhhhh... pooooooor, poooooooor baby.... I feel so sorry for you...
... life is so haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaard when you don't get to judge people based on statements that you invented and then pretended they said. So unfair! I mean, what do they expect you to do, limit yourself to things that people actually said for purposes of condemning them?! How illogical!
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/feb/24/uta-frith-autism-neurosc…
If you google Uta Frith and Fairies that comes up. They have a "fariy-tale aura". I was wrong.
This makes no sense at all. People do dislike others for completely irrational reasons. Just look at the anti-vaxers attitude to Paul Offit.
It's not me....talk to the autistics who wrote the blogs. I'm sure they are a bunch of whiners, too.
How many of you are autistic? Is it so hard to feel for them, that they might be degraded by being included in a book about evil?
Not only in this particular.
life is so haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaard
Is that how scientists spell hard, because that's a new one to me.
http://autismandempathyblog.wordpress.com/author/neuralgourmet/
http://autismblogsdirectory.blogspot.com/2011/09/simon-baron-cohen-repl…
Many people point out that Simon Baron Cohen seems to lack empathy towards autistics. He has included in a study that they seem to lack that "quintessentially human qualities" How many of you lack quintessentially human qualities that make you human?
A theory of mind remains one of the quintessential abilities that makes us human (Whiten, 1993). By theory of mind we mean being able to infer the full range of mental states (beliefs, desires, intentions, imagination, emotions, etc.) that cause action. In brief, having a theory of mind is to be able to reflect on the contents of one’s own and other’s minds. Difficulty in understanding other minds is a core cognitive feature of autism spectrum conditions. The theory of mind difficulties seem to be universal among such individuals.” (Baron-Cohen 2001, 3) (http://autismandempathyblog.wordpress.com/a-critique-of-the-empathy-quo…)
usethebraingodgiveyou,
Take a deep breath, shut down your computer and take a walk.
Screaming through your keyboard and flinging accusations won't help, and if you do it people sometimes reciprocate. The way it seems to me, you started - or if you're really thin skinned, at least escalated from the get go - the name calling and insults.
Quite a lot of people here are not neurotypical or have a relative who is not.
But it has already been said.
There are a fair number of autistics here and more with special needs children. I'm afraid you don't have the lock on that.
Gaist, I'm not screaming...I'm sticking up for myself. As long as you keep belittling me, I'll be here.
You've taken most everything I've said and twisted it. Is that science, too?
brains,
If I didn't listen I wouldn't have noticed that you keep making statements that are not true, and refuse to either address the evidence that they are not true or withdraw your lies. You just repeat them over and over again. For example, claiming that commenters here "have made vaccines their god, and will take no discussion of possible causality" is a blatant lie, since we have discussed different injuries caused by vaccines and their risks.
You are the one making wildly inaccurate assertions, and when people point out they are untrue, or ask for evidence you claim you are being bullied. I'm not butt-hurt, I'm annoyed that you keep spreading misinformation even when you know it isn't true.
No one has accused you of being a murderer. I have pointed out that if you keep spreading lies about vaccine safety and people believe you, you will bear some collective responsibility if they don't vaccinate their children and as a result children are injured and/or die.
Uta Frith DID call kids that…Do I have to look it up to show you evidence?
You can't, because she has never stated any such thing. She did say that autistic children are, "often so beautiful and yet so different" and that they had a "fairy-tale" aura – as if under a spell". That isn't calling them fairies or aliens, is it?
All autistics? Sorry, I didn't realize you were a spokesperson for people with autism. How do you feel about someone who describes an person with an ASD as "deluded" as you did at #569?
No, just show me where SBC described autistic individuals as "evil" and where Frith called autistic children "fairies" and "aliens".
Show me some evidence.
Obvious block-quote fail is, hopefully, obvious.
Jesus, Krebs...
Obvious block-quote fail is, hopefully, obvious.
You can't even see yourselves. Maybe I am clueless. I'm not from AoA...
Show me proof that long term studies have been done on HHE...
The blockquote fail (a missing closure) is after:
"would you read anything I sent? Did you read anything I linked to?"
and before "On this thread you have linked to an article about Dawkins’ somewhat foolish statement about terminating Down’s pregnancies, to an archive of writings by autistic people, and to a PubMed search for SSE, all of which I have looked at. FC has been debunked as desperate people fooling themselves. Maybe in rare cases it can help, but in general it seems to make things worse."
After that, every increased indentation is a quote from you, and every not so indented paragraph is by Krebiozen.
Hope that helps.
Jesus, Gaist....
This is science?
Tito's mother taught him, beginning with an FC type format. Eventually, he wrote the words himself. Richard Attfield started off for years with FC, and now types independently.
No, that was my comment. The science-part you skimmed over waaay way upthread...
I don't see why you quoted Krebiozen correcting himself as a reason to call him as well as other commenters on this forum blind.
I can't think straight. Why does it always have to be a belittling comeback? Is that the scientific method?
I thought he was talking to me.
Like this one you mean?
You even mentioned this same study earlier, but now you deny it exists? Bizarre.
Show me another one. I'm still working on whether that says what you think it says.
And that was 9 kids out of thousands.....
And that was in 1989. And yes, I am bizarre.
I think you are reading way too much antagonism into my and other peoples' comments here, and in doing so, instigating others and escalating the situation. Hence my recommendation earlier that you should take a deep breath and a break.
To which you accused me of belittling you.
And what's with the "is this science?" skit? Seems to me you think you're being bullied here and try somehow to insinuate it's all science is, when you know that is not the case at all.
It's not bullying to insist on evidence to back one's claims, and calling one out for spouting incorrect information.
I repeat my recommendation, take a break. Come back and reply to reasonable comments in a reasonable manner.
That's not entirely accurate and I wouldn't even call it facilitated communication in the "classic" sense or how most of know it as. Tito was taught the alphabet and word formation with manipulatives and learned to write on his own. Attfield was already typing on his own and merely used his parents' to help him move his hands over the keyboard. And this has to do with what exactly?
Stick to the science, support any controversial statements with reliable evidence, avoid calling people Nazis and making other wildly inaccurate derogatory comments about people, and you won't get belittling comebacks. It's simple really.
Typically, the verbal/performance gap is not that wide. And although the discrepancy may be indicative of a bilingual child, it also can be indicative of autism.
Tito's mother continues to teach many other kids in a way that is considered facilitated communication.
Like this one you mean? [...]
Sigh. Show me some evidence that HHE has long-term sequelae. Follow-up studies in the Netherlands and Sweden mentioned here don't appear to have been published, which suggests to me they found nothing of interest. Or it's a huge cover-up by Big Pharma.
I wish I had a copy of that paper.
Was the study done? It sounds like it was too difficult to do...That was belittling, Krebs
If you'd have actually clicked Krebs's link, usethebrains, you might have noticed that the paper is available to the public free of charge.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/102/5/e52.full.pdf+html
Here is a little bit longer....http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/102/5/e52.long
18 months of age ....would be long before children at that time would be diagnosed with autism.
And that was belittling , Adam.
Please explain how that was in any way belittling. It wasn't intended to be. Maybe I have seen too many studies dismissed as having been faked by Big Pharma just because someone doesn't like the findings.
Here's what the study says:
I can't find this study on PubMed or on the Clinical Trials website. As I said, that's probably because the results were negative, and thus not deemed interesting enough to publish, which is a shame.
BTW, this article found:
There were 68 cases of HHE after 2.2 million doses of aP vaccine, that's 1 case for every 370,000 doses. Not as rare as 1 in a million, but since there is no evidence of permanent sequelae, I don't see that as particularly worrying.
I don't care if you feel 'belittled.' You 'wished' to see a copy of the paper but couldn't even bother to actually click on the link to see if you could access it.
You can feel as belittled as you want but it won't change the fact that the evidence is not on your side.
Says the person who has falsely accused people of being Nazis, of being delusional, of refusing to accept vaccine injuries and of calling autistic people evil. Belittled by being politely informed that they failed to click on a link? Really?
If you don't like being insulted, don't insult people. It's called the Golden Rule.
For example?
I hate getting involved in a long, drawn-out thread/ argument:
but SERIOUSLY why is SBC a oroblem- he simply describes characteristics that are common, even defining, features of autism?
Understanding others' motives and making inferences about their thoughts are clearly important abilities and these are precisely where people with ASDs have difficulties. When you study developmental psychology, usually general cognitive abilities are differentiated from more socially-based abilities.This is not new news.
I think it's time to stop feeding UTBGGY
brains,
I just noticed this:
You have that back to front. A 90% decrease in 1 in 7,000 is not 1 in 700, it is 0.1 in 7,000, or 1 in 70,000. The study I cited above found an incidence of 1 in 370,000 after aP.
No, Kreb...let me see if I can get this right....DTaP was a 90% decrease in the incidence of HHE.....so, the DTwP incidence would have been 90% higher.
Denise: science doesn't have a good record in their treatment of autism. Whether he did it purposely or not, he implied that autistics were not human because they lacked essential qualities.
I thought we were starting over...and put downs are not science.
Adam, I was talking about the 1989 long term study with the numbers on kids who spoke spanish.
SciMom: Sorry about that. Ritalin and I have a complicated history, so when people talk about it I kind of have a knee jerk response. It wasn't so much the ritalin itself, but starting the dose again after vacations was a special little hell.
DW: but SERIOUSLY why is SBC a oroblem- he simply describes characteristics that are common, even defining, features of autism?
From my readings around the net, it seems that the most serious bone some people have to pick is the 'extreme male brain theory' which makes it very, very difficult for autistic women and girls to get the right diagnosis and also is occasionally used as an excuse to not provide proper treatment (hormones, support) to trans individuals who are also autistic. Never heard of him calling autistic people outright evil though.
You mean the one you said you were "working on"? Guess that was a lie.
Here's the full text of paper you want, my adorable belittled cupcake.
I don't believe other than the one study I referred to, they have looked at any possible long term sequalia.
That's not how I read him at all.
I have to depart: this thread is rather irksome loading...
Adam, I'm feeling a little too paranoid to download anything off the web right now. Do you have another way to access that study?
I subscribe to Pediatrics, and I provided a link to a pdf of the study, which i really shouldn't have done. the link is not a direct download, but shows the name of the file before you choose to download anything. If you choose not to download and read the paper you wished for, that's on you.
You could pay the $12.
thank you, then. I will, if it is still open.
MY comment was for 'use'
@ PGP: I was referring to the 'theory of mind' not the male stuff
I unwillingly must exit - my computer hates this thread
If you don't have a local university or college with a decent health science library pretty much any local librarian should be able to help you get it from interlibrary loan from the one of them. Just bring the full reference (authors, title, journal, volume and page numbers.
Sorry, I misunderstood. I know you have personal reasons, but why should we be concerned about the wP vaccine? It isn't in use any more, anywhere as far as I know.
None of the HHE kids in that study spoke Spanish, though some of those that had febrile convulsions did.
Looking at the 8 children that had HHE, I see that one had an articulatory defect related to a familial speech problem, one had Goldenhar syndrome which is a rare congenital defect and one had exhibited rapid, alternating movements which are linked to a mutation in SLC18A2. None of these neurological problems could plausibly have been caused by the vaccine. Two were not assessed, but were doing well at school (one was a grade behind attributed to frequent moves), the rest were normal.
And that was belittling , Adam
Then start acting like an adult and actually reading what people post for you. I'm inclined to agree with Brook@715.
Also, the cafe au lait spots would be indicative of neurofibromatosis and/or tuberous sclerosis. No, the pre-existing conditions may have no bearing on the neurological problems.
I mean...they may be the sole cause of the HHE...but it is a reaction not seen in any other incidence. It's pretty scary.
I don't doubt it. Febrile convulsions can also be terrifying if you have never witnessed anyone fitting before.
If you need a copy of a more recent paper, an email to the corresponding author (last in the list of authors, usually) politely requesting a copy often works.
Krebs....for the love of god and all that is holy, I am on my third triple whiskey....I had seen fits before, and that's why I thought it was nothing...because I'd never seen anyone die from a fit...I new shit like that just happened. But i was afraid to be thought mad for having a child who had a reaction to a vaccine...so we didn't go to the doctor I just held him and prayed.
I'm nuts....I don't care anymore...stop me...because it all just came up today and Ben, bless his heart, a bartender like grandma gave me two triple shots of whiskey. I'm on my third now.
Grandpa....Grandpa...
I came to you guys for help, because I am an idiot.
Never mind...never mind...
I don't want to be responsible for the death of millions of kids....that's what you put on parents that say anything. and you have the gifted intellect to refute everything they say, and I am drunk...
Um generally if you are drunk enough to post like you are a computer failing the Turin Test, it's time to put the bottle and computer down and go to bed.
Honey, I don't know what the Turin test is....stop with that. and I am going to bed...hopefully......but you don't know the shame you place on parents who ...whatever, it's not science...and I should be ashamed of myself...but you create monsters. Can you imagine being responsible for the death of millions of kids by saying anything? .
Many people point out that Simon Baron Cohen seems to lack empathy towards autistics.
I'm not actually interested in what "many people" (unnamed, not further specified) allegedly think about Dr Baron Cohen's alleged lack of empathy. I'm interested in explicit claims, made by UTBGGY, that "Simon Baron Cohen [...] called my son evil". So that was all made up bullsh1t? I am so disappoint.
any parent who says anything is responsible for children's deaths...that's a heavy load to carry...
@Use - get some rest. We can be a bit of a mean & nasty bunch in certain circumstances (lord knows we've all been called much worse - some of us even to the point where anti-vax individuals attempt to get us fired from our jobs)....but we are also extremely empathetic to those that have an open mind and are willing to listen to others and evidence.
Just my $0.02
heir doktor you are an idiot also.
I don't know what to say anymore... I used to love science...I hope I pass out soon....
usethebrains, you appear to believe that your child has suffered some lasting sequelae from an episode of HHE, as the result of receiving a DtaP vaccination.
The problem is that you're approaching the question from teh wrong end, questioning if enough studies have been done (especially ones looking at long-term outcomes following HHE) to prove this could not have been the case, rather than if studies have been done indicating it most likely was the case. The studies which have been done indicate that HHE, associated with DTap vaccination or otherwise, does not result in lasting neurological or lntellecttual damage.
As for SBC and Frith, they simply did not say what you thought they said--and even if they did, their statements wouldn't argue that vaccines are unsafe or the HHE your son experienced caused lasting damage.
As for how many of us are autistic, what relevance does that bear? Surely you're not suggesting that unless one is autistic they cannot comprehend the body of existing evidence nor derive valid conclusions from it with respect to vaccine safety and efficacy.
I am mean and nasty also...but you don't know the load you place on parents who look at what they see and wonder if it is the vaccine....You shame them into silence. And that is not science....
I am just here, I am not putting this on AofA or whatever....I have a scientific bent....
How?? You've been the opposite of silent. Nobody here has told you to be silent.
How do you think we feel, being called evil child killers simply for examining the evidence and disagreeing with you?
I wish you knew how scientific my mind was.... I didn't ask for that kind of mind....
You are making me responsible for the death of millions of children...no wonder most parent's don't speak out.....
Pass out...pass out... pass out....If wishing could make it so....
Put down the bottle and go rant on your blog. This is becoming quite sad.
Yes it is Adam...
You don't know what you do to parents who question the science....1979...the last long term study ...oh, my God, I hope nobody sees this because I don't want children to die because of me....You don't know what you do to parents...you create monsters....
I'll be down soon, and you can pretend like this never even happened. Good for you...
No. I guess I was unclear, after all. So here we go. Third time's the charm:
You said:
No it didn't. "The final solution" was a euphemistic Nazi way of saying "our plan to exterminate European Jewry."
Literally. That's what it was. "The final solution to the Jewish question." Or, in German, "die Endlösung der Judenfrage"
And it originated at the Wannsee Conference in 1941.
Both the final solution and the non-voluntary euthanasia program that you're talking about were eugenicist.
But that doesn't make the non-voluntary euthanasia program a part of the final solution, which was -- specifically -- to the Jewish question.
No, I'm not joking. You can look it up.
(a) Who said elitists don't exist? What I said was that although eugenicist thinking flourished for a few decades a century ago, it's universally rejected and scorned by everyone (except neo-Nazis) in the present.
Including elites. Which exist.
(b) A lot of people are afraid of spiders. Which also exist.
Doesn't mean they pose a real threat, though.
That's very unchristian of you. What are you, some kind of atheist?
I'm not. I did have an HHE in response to the pertussis vaccine though.
It's a two-way street, you know.
Maybe you should try setting an example. Better to give than receive, and all that.
Poor Desmond, a black guy who came to the door....He's praying for me, though, y'all. You are messing with the big guy, cause nobody knows like a black man what it is to stand against those who would hope to belittle you...
Well. Removing it meant more profits for big pharma. Maybe it was a conspiracy.
And should you read this when you sober up.
I don't think anyone here says you, personally, want to kill millions of kids. (although I think the anti-science crowd does think anyone with a scientific type of mind is that evil by definition).
However when you advocate for something you have to acknowledge the risks of taking that position. The risks for being pro-vax are known, rare, and we think any child harmed should be compensated so any real harms that are ongoing are taken care of (at least I think I speak for most of us).
Most in the anti-vax do not want to in any way acknowledge there could be a risk of any kind from preventable illnesses. Either they say the illnesses won't happen to anyone in contrast to all available evidence, or they say no one will be harmed.
If I fever from a vaccine can cause harm, why is a fever from an illness considered safe or even beneficial to all who get it.
That is why some of us get a bit harsh. There is this fantasy world out there where no one will die from things we know killed millions in the past. That getting illness after illness, fever, after fever, rash after rash will somehow make kids much healthier and smarter, and better, and faster and stronger.
Even though in countries where that still happens to some kids those kids are generally smaller, and weaker and thrive even worse than most other kids in the same country with the same amount of food, resources.
So, why was Thimerosal removed? Because the companies were told to do so by the government....the same government that these anti-vax whack-jobs claim is in the pocket of Big Pharma.
It shows serious mental issues when these same people can crow every time a company is fined by the government & out of the same mouth, claim that the government is covering up for these same companies.
They can't keep their own conspiracies straight....
Let's see... that would be the radiocarbon dating of a piece of brain tissue?
Sorry. Been livin' in a place where everyond drops the final g too long.
Turing Test.
UTBGGY:I wish you knew how scientific my mind was.
From what you've demonstrated here, you wouldn't know science if it bit you. And stop pretending to be drunk, it doesn't score any points here.
usethebrains...
What do you want me to do? Lie to you and tell you I believe your child was damaged by vaccines when the evidence doesn't support that conclusion, just so I don't hurt your feelings?
BTW, the last published study on the long-term effects of HHE after wP was published in 1988, not 1979. Since the acellular pertussis vaccine was licensed in 1991, and the study I cited above found HHE occurs after only 1 in 370,000 doses, and has no permanent sequalae, I see no cause for concern.
Stop telling lies about vaccines and your conscience will be clear.
What should a person who understands the science in this area do when they come across someone making statements that are not true? You came into this discussion with the words:
You also accused us of "minion’s bobble headed reasoning". I'd say you were spoiling for a fight, and when you got one you started complaining that you are being oppressed.
Despite this provocation, I and others responded very politely to you, pointing out that the evidence supports the 1 in a million figure. You responded with:
What if I had told you that your claims that your child was damaged by vaccines were "a bullsh!t sundae with cat crap cream on top!" What if when you objected to this, I had started wailing that you were turning me into a monster? I imagine you would have about as much respect for me as I have for you right now.
Ann, I answered the question of why they removed thimeosal way back at post 277
That was about the CDC. The goal posts shifted:
WHY JGC??????
WHY OH WHY OH WHY?
(^^Rhetorical question on my part.
Because personally, I'm satisfied that the entire autism-vaccine hypothesis is part of a great big conspiracy by pharma. Take stuff out. Put stuff in. It keeps their wares under patent.)
Usethebrains…
Please go get some help. The professional kind – not the internet kind. And not out of a bottle, because it’s not doing you any good.
Please go get some help.
@DW….When I want intellectual stimulation, lots of fun overnight or whatever, it’s with men my own age. The young men are sheer window dressing and therefore, paid. (not really…I don’t actually go out with gigolos. If I had my check, I’d spend it on FAR more important things……)
MI Dawn, might I ask a range of how old are you from 20-29, 30-39 and so on? Also, do you share similar feelings as other woman your age?
the reason I ask is that, I've been collecting data over a royal lot of years and despite being myself (which mean, I will always work hard to support my future wife's goal in life, always. I will never take her for granted. That, you can be assured of. the rest, we'll deal with it when we cross the bridge).
Thing is, I met a mate who was very interested in me but then, I made the successful move that I was a beneficiary of Social Security Disability at that time, just before being hired by SAP and now, I live on the 22nd floor of a 30 floors high-rise building with everything included (the usual + swimming pool, gym, 512mbps internet connexion for now...we're 150 residents...and finally, 10 minutes walk from work).
The thing is, I met a royal lot of woman over 35 and never was a suitable candidate for them despite my linkedin growing by 5 times since last week with employees from SAP and getting known by my first name from peoples I don't know in the company. I must have a secret but the only time I've been successful lately is with an Iranian woman who recently immigrated in Canada after living all her life in Iran and going through a rough patch in life.
Sincerely, I care for her a whole lot much more than any Caucasian female I ever met here (you mostly know where I am) because, there's absolutely no game involved and we both are similar: we say what we think and we think what we say, based on sound premises.
Good night.
Alain
I thought too fast for my writing.
The woman who contacted me, we exchanged several emails (including the disclosure of my diagnostic) but when I told her I was on SSD right before I was hired by SAP, that was a huge turn-off. That's it.
Alain
@usethebrainsgodgiveyou
Pretty lady, don't let'em get all subcutaneous up your butt. If one is not sufficiently self-flippant then, at times, these forums (and I suspect much of it is truely in good-hearted jest) can easily induce a sort of rapid onset 'dysphoria', especially after a 911 anniversary mixed drink blender bender and the ongoing magnetospheric oscillations of 200 nT.
It may be therapeutic to get to know your perceived foes --
Take *Krebiozen*:
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=325756
Krebiozen, Who pay you?? **grins**
Tim, you're becoming as incoherent as UTBGGY is.
It's just my way, Julian Frost.
Cannabis troll is trolling this AM....
@Alain: I have a 27 year old daughter and she was born when I was in my mid-twenties. Therefor my rule of thumb has always been that I won't date anyone I could have given birth to (and considering menarche in the USA runs around age 12 or so, I feel that's fair...)
Hooker has coughed up a clue:
"The study protocol agreed upon by the CDC on September 5, 2001 definitively stated that 'The only variable available to be assessed as a potential confounder using the entire sample is child’s race.' Thus, the effect of race on autism incidence could have (and should have) been assessed in the entire sample...."
What do you want to bet that whatever followed stated nothing other than the need to control for more confounders?
Maybe I've missed something here, but if the only place the children's race was recorded was on the birth certificate, how did they know that a child without a birth certificate was African American?
I should have read further before commenting here. Hooker now claims that data on race was available from "birth chart records" and school records and not from birth certificates. I thought commenters here had established that this data is available on the long-form birth certificate. There's a can of worms here that might require some respectful insolence methinks.
How many of you are autistic?
I was examined as a youngling. The conclusion was that although my younger self was weird, it was a different kind of weirdness.
HDB,
Isn't that an Incubus track?
As for autism, I scored 8 on Simon Baron-Cohen's test, which I guess makes me the opposite of autistic. I do tend to see the bigger picture at the expense of details. I once failed to recognize a close friend of mine in the pub after he had shaved off his beard, and it took me a few minutes of conversation before I recognized him, which was weird. Beer was involved, so that might have been an anomaly, had it not happened again, with a chap I knew casually, and failed to recognize, which he got quite cross about. It's interesting how different our neurologies are within the neurotypical range.
IIRC I scored 6.
I scored 25. Don't know what that means. When I was young, my parents took me to some things, to find out what was wrong with me, not really having much friends, being very much on myself and sometimes reacting somewhat weird and aggressive if things didn't work out the way I wanted. I remember trowing newspapers and magazines around and once I broke a small window in the door, because I wasn't allowed to take a book with me, when I went to school. I loved to read, but didn't hear the schoolbell when I was reading, wich resulted in having the book I was reading taken away. I got some diagnoses, which would roughly translate as 'un-child'. I also got some diagnosis as MBD.
Some years ago someone wanted me to be tested for autism, which I refused. I don't really need a label. I know I'm a bit weird, not having much friends, not really being able to make friends and reacting quite weird if things go wrong and I don't know what to do.
Oh, dear, it's AQ time? I was well into the 30s when a shrink suggested it as homework,* or something. Conclusion: "clinically relevant."
This was a fairly ironic remark to hear coming from a let's-have-40-minutes-of-awkward-silence Rogerian.
* I even had a friend who didn't know what it was supposed to measure check my work.
I scored 25 if that is any consolation. But that was mostly due to a combination of a very good memory, a liking for patterns and numbers and enough deafness to make social occasions difficult.
At least that is my excuse.
My memory for numbers isn't that good, funny thing is, I'm pretty good with numbers. And I'm far from deaf, actually I hear everything, like dripping taps and other noises, which can be quite annoiing.
It's not exactly an exact science, is it? I wonder how much of what it measures is innate and how much learned.
I do tend to see the bigger picture at the expense of details. I once failed to recognize a close friend of mine in the pub after he had shaved off his beard
The thing is, I like art. I like it a lot. My mental memory palace is based on the Gemäldegalerie and the Alte Nationalgalerie, combined with the Alte- and Neue-Pinototek and the Prado and the National Gallery and the Hirschsprung Collection.
Anyway, it is quite possible that I can learn new faces *without* forgetting a painting. But why that that chance?
HDB,
Mine's based on my childhood home, but one room is full of footballs and another full of clocks, for reasons I fail to recall, which defeats the object really. When do I clear out old stuff? If never, do I build on new rooms, a large conservatory? A loft conversion? Another storey? I should do some more work on this I suppose, it seems to work for Derren Brown (and Hannibal Lecter).
but one room is full of footballs and another full of clocks, for reasons I fail to recall, which defeats the object really
Do you also have cats wandering through getting in the way when you're trying to remember things?
it seems to work for Derren Brown (and Hannibal Lecter).
Due to poor choice of grandparents, I have the Mads Mikkelsen accent, though sadly not the appearance..
I scored 25 if that is any consolation.
I fess up to occasionally doing jigsaw puzzles upside down as a child, so as not to be distracted by the pictures. I have not checked but I suspect it's a bad sign.
Frequently, sometimes in my memory palace too.
I think you're better off with the accent, though perhaps his fine performance as Hannibal has skewed my reaction to his appearance.
Nah, as I've said before, normal's over-rated.
Ah, the infamous AQ test. I've score 38 - 42 at different times, but then I already suspected I was on the spectrum. Still dithering about whether its worthwhile to get an "official" diagnosis since I'm now 31 years old.
I never actually created a memory palace despite studying this stuff...
However I seem to have ridiculously good abilities for new and foreign words and quite clear visual imagery- I can scan memory images of places I have visited including those I have only seen once. I can memorise maps so I rarely need to carry them about and/ or rely upon that ((((shudder)))) GPS car device.
FWIW, I scored 10 but I always did jigsaw puzzles upside down as a kid.
I never did much with jigsaw puzzles but liked the camouflaged figures ( "Can you pick out the hidden whatevers in this scene?" testing field independence /dependence I suppose) and OBVIOUSLY anagrams, crosswords etc.
It may not reflect on my NT-status but because of my artistic ability perhaps- as I could draw realistically very early on which earned me praise and MONEY!
I was once recruited as a guinea pig by Birkbeck College psychology department for an experiment looking at whether subliminal words flashed on a screen affected the subject's subsequent behavior (I forget what precisely as we didn't get that far). When I pointed out that I could see all of the words that weren't supposed to be consciously visible they didn't believe me, until I demonstrated by reading them out as they appeared. I was excluded from the study, but still got my £10. I always wondered if that said anything about my neurology.
It isn't a very useful mental superpower though it saves me lots of money on coke and popcorn at the movie theater .
@usethebrainsgodgiveyou
and Now Is Gold??
Infected Mushroom
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_zj4WbJv2rQ
I find there are many things such as the following. These are things that you never hear about in school or in your medical training but seem to be an actual part of the real history of the world:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment
Why should I feel enthusiastic about an establishment where experts go on NPR and claim that vitamins and minerals have little or no value and your average doctor seems to not know much about basic nutrition, vitamins. Pretty much every herbal treatment, every and all alternative treatments that have been used for thousands of years are laughed at and attacked by your atheist promoters. With the cost of health insurance going up, people end up going bankrupt.
To all you doctors on this blog, I avoid you like the plague. I am wise to the nonsensical promotion of prostate tests, vaccine brainwashing at all the pharmacies. I resent that the government is forcing me to pay all this money for health insurance so you can live in your big houses.
Whenever I go to a pharmacy I see one of the clerks who has the button on that says 'get your vaccinations today', I ask them if they got their vaccination. Most of them laugh and realize it's all a big scam. Inject aluminum into your body ? Doesn't aluminum cause Alzheimer latter in life ..
I'm sure many of you believe the brainwashing you have received in your medical education, so in some sense I feel sorry for you I guess ..
Human medical experimentation in the United States: The shocking true history of modern medicine and psychiatry (1833-1965)
http://www.naturalnews.com/019189.html
@Larz,
How do you know what I or anyone else here heard about in school? Please be specific on your source of knowledge for the particular case of the Tuskegee syphilis experiments. I don't believe any reasonable person would deny they took place. A quick Google search show that it seems to be discussed in a variety of courses in various universities.
They do this because the science shows that people who eat a varied diet get all the vitamins and minerals they need from their food. Use of vitamin and mineral supplements has not been demonstrated to have a health value unless you are suffering from some deficiency.
@Larz
Funny you should refer to the Tuskeegee Experiment. That particular experiment bears a very close resemblance to the Big Experiment that your antivax buds keep yelling for: the double-blind Vax vs No-Vax Study.
You also use Natural News as a reference. I also in some sense feel sorry for you (if by "feeling sorry" means pointing and laughing).
Larz: " Pretty much every herbal treatment, every and all alternative treatments that have been used for thousands of years are laughed at and attacked by your atheist promoters."
So Larz, how well do you think vitamins, herbs and other alternative treatments would work for syphilis? Do tell us, because that is all the Tuskegee subjects were actually really offered. Don't you think it would have been better if they had been actually given antibiotics?
I came across an interesting discussion about the AD aluminum hypothesis, which should, by rights, be pushing up the daisies, should anyone be interested.
tl:dr;? Here's a soundbite:
"your average doctor seems to not know much about basic nutrition, vitamins."
Translation: "doctors don't buy into my goofy theories about nutrition."
"To all you doctors on this blog, I avoid you like the plague. I am wise to the...vaccine brainwashing "
In which case, you may wind up carrying the plague (or at least influenza or other vaccine-preventable disease) to your unfortunate contacts.
Whilst I am not a medical doctor, my own education and training went to great lengths to criticise itself:
- clinicians treated mental illness w/o respect for human rights of patients
- people of diverse ethnic origins were treated as second class citizens w/o consideration of communication/ social differences
-gay people were labelled as mentally ill
- women were marginalised
- research in the third world didn't take cultural differences into account when investigating cognition
- testing was biased towards the privileged classes
- intelligence tests were biased through fixed data ( Burt)
- early research had little real world applicability
- some experiments were inhumane
I could go on but won't
-btw- I'm an atheist
but LORD this thread is a b!tch to type/ load!
I see one of the clerks who has the button on that says ‘get your vaccinations today’, I ask them if they got their vaccination. Most of them laugh and realize it’s all a big scam
Strange! When *I* fo to the pharmacy, most of the pharmacists laugh and tell me that Larz is making stuff up.
I have a mental double-wide, not a mental palace. The upkeep's better suited to my thought budget.
Big houses? Primary care doctors don't live in big houses. They've been thoroughly proletarianized by the corporate health care system, and live in little pink houses like you and me. MDs of the world, you have nothing to lose but the compound interest on your Med school loans!
I suppose I'd resent the government for forcing me to pay for Larz' health insurance, if he was actually going to the doctor. I do wonder where someone who avoids doctors like the plague gets the scrips for his seemingly regular trip to the pharmacy.
Speaking of Ritalin... Somehow I came down with a chronic ADD (sans H) thing in my 50s w/o any childhood history. Used to take Ritalin. Made me jumpier. As I said on earlier thread, psych med scrips are like tossing darts in the dark. Different people react really differently to small differences in med chemistry. Celexa may be a lifesaver for Tom, do squat for Dick and mess up Harry, with the opposite results for Lexapro which is almost the same thing. My life improved 100+% which they switched me from Ritalin to Adderal. Had a friend with a severely ASD son in CT, loves her.kid to death. If he takes his Ritalin he can go dancing with her at Arthur Murray. Sometimes Ritalin is beautiful.
"I am wise to the nonsensical promotion of prostate tests..." Huh? Do tell! I don't thing the MD likes sticking their finger up your colon any more than you like getting it stuck up there, so that's gotta be one heck of a conspiracy.
Took that AQ for fun. Got 18. Doubt it's reliable. To much depends on how you interpret the terms in a 4 point Likert scale. I refuse to do Likert scales of any kind for realz if I have the option. I'm very bad at that abstract visual skill stuff: puzzles upside down, seeing words in a roll of Boggle cubes. I do understand Baudrillard at least some of the time though, and I wonder what that says about my neurology.
I can't say normal's over-rated as I've never been. But if you're ever in Normal, go to Avanti's for a plate of awesome mid-American style ravioli or spaghetti.
Why are people complaining about being punk'd by Sasha Baron Cohen?
{In which Borat learns Science in America...)
BORAT: A man yesterday, tell me if I buy a car I must buy one with a pussy magnet. Do this have a pussy magnet?
CAR DEALER: No. The vehicle itself would be a magnet.
BORAT: If this car drive into a group of gypsies, will there be any damage to the car?
CAR DEALER: It depends on how hard you hit them and all that..
Cohen has retired Ali G., Borat, Bruno and his other previous personae and is developing new charac.......
Tim??
I am wise to the nonsensical promotion of prostate tests
This sounds like a very personal issue.
Doesn’t aluminum cause Alzheimer latter in life ..
No, you need some other excuse.
No, Sadmar. I still haven't forgiven the man for that stunt with Ron Paul. Idk, perhaps a kinder, gentler 'Tim' should revisit the aforementioned Pustulance of Penzantz' performance and reconsider his position...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F7RnlPQCKBQ
Umm... Just vote for pedro...
'Pustulante' of Penzantz
Pustulante-excellance of Penzantz, even ...
I had to look that one up. Much to my surprise, it was not an old terminal emulator like Kermit...
Bruno did make a mistake with Ron Paul there...
He should have gotten him drunk first.
Ron complained to his son, but amazingly Rand he didn't do anything about it.
Since SBC isn't doing Bruno anymore, I think it's safe for Tim to reconsider his, uhh... position.
Scienceblogs as a brand is all about pushing mainstream science fraud. You guys must really be twisting in the wind over this one.
@Graeme - yeah, not so much....
http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2014/09/mmr-cdc-and-brian-hooker-media…
The only people that seem to care are you anti-vax screwheads....