The Medical Board of California initiates disciplinary action against antivaccine "hero" Dr. Bob Sears. It's about time.

After all the bad news that I’ve been blogging about, it’s a pleasure for me to end the week with a bit of very good news, very good news indeed. That news came in the form of an article published in the Orange County Register with the glorious title Dr. Bob Sears faces medical board discipline in recommendation not to vaccinate.

Behold:

Dr. Bob Sears, the Capistrano Beach pediatrician who is an outspoken critic of mandatory vaccination laws, faces possible state Medical Board discipline after he recommended that a 2-year-old patient forgo immunizations, according to legal documents made public Thursday.

The board accuses Sears of committing “gross negligence” in 2014 when he wrote a letter excusing the toddler from future vaccinations after the child’s mother described an adverse reaction as an infant.

The documents say Sears failed to obtain a detailed medical history documenting the unidentified boy’s prior vaccines and reactions, which was necessary for making an evidence-based decision. Sears’ recommendation left the patient and “his future contacts at risk for preventable and communicable diseases,” the documents say.

Sears declined to comment Thursday.

If the board finds Sears negligent, he could face discipline ranging from a public reprimand to revocation of his medical license.

My first thought when I saw this story was: Excellent. It’s about time! Personally, like some of you, I consider Dr. Bob to be an antivaccine quack. That is my opinion, but it is one that I can give quite a few evidence-based reasons for and have been doing for years now. Given Dr. Bob’s history of opposing SB 277, the new California law that eliminated nonmedical exemptions to school vaccine mandates and his willingness to give paid seminars teaching parents to avoid the requirements of SB 277 and even outright selling nonmedical exemptions, I consider him a menace to public health, particularly that of children in California and beyond. Physicians who betray public health and the health of their patients by not only failing to vaccinate but actively seeking to subvert SB 277 (not oppose, which is Sears' constitutional right, but to actively subvert it now that it's passed by writing what I consider to be dubious medical exemptions based on bogus antivaccine pseudoscience), a law designed to maintain high rates of vaccination, do not deserve their medical licenses, as they are not practicing anywhere near according to the standard of care. I thus view the Medical Board of California’s action with strong approval, strong approval indeed.

That is my opinion of Dr. Bob and what he deserves. Now the Medical Board of California is actually acting against him.

When I read this story, I also couldn't help but wonder initially if this action was over an incident that a reader reported to me, complete with letters signed by Dr. Sears recommending exemptions from school vaccine mandates based on what I considered to be bogus medical reasons based on the mother filling out an online application and paying a fee. It rapidly became clear that it wasn't when the news story stated that the incident resulting in this complaint occurred in 2014. The legal filing by the State of California tells the tale, the tale being about a young boy named J.G. (for purposes of court hearings):

On April 3, 2014, two-year-old J.G. presented to Respondent for the first time. He was seen by Respondent for what medical records describe as a “two year.” The visit of this date includes a summary of the patient’s history with a brief description of J.G.’s prior vaccination reaction, as described by the patient’s mother. Her description included, “shut down stools and urine” for 24 hours with 2 month vaccines and limp “like a ragdoll” lasting 24 hours and not himself for up to a week after 3 month vaccines.

Respondent wrote a letter dated April 13, 2014 excusing patient J.G. from all future vaccinations. The letter indicates that the patient’s kidneys and intestines shut down after prior vaccinations and that at three months the patient suffered what appears to be a severe encephalitis reaction for 24 hours starting approximately ten minutes after his vaccines, with lethargy.

The letter dated April 13, 2014 was not maintained in patient J.G.’s medical chart in Respondent’s office.

There’s more, including other visits to Dr. Bob. I wonder what Dr. Bob’s antivaccine fans would think if they learned that he actually administered the dreaded Tamiflu to J.G. later (January 2015) for a case of what appeared to be influenza. Be that as it may, Dr. Bob also saw the child in June 2014 for headache with a history of being hit on the head with a hammer by Dad two weeks prior to visit. According to the Board, there was also a mention of a split lip prior to the hammer incident. However, the physicial examination indicated “no residual marks now.” The Board also noted that no additional physical examination, including the all-important neurological examination (in cases of head trauma), was performed and no assessment with plans recorded. I used to do trauma, including pediatric trauma, and I know that this is a grossly inadequate evaluation for what might be a concussion, based on symptoms and timing, after having been hit in the head with a blunt object. One also has to wonder if child protective services was involved somehow or whether Dr. Bob reported the incident as possible child abuse, as the law requires a pediatrician to do when he suspects possible child abuse. I suspect that most pediatricians, upon seeing a child reportedly hit on the head with a hammer by his father, even if it was reportedly accidental, would report the incident, particularly if there were reports or signs of other injuries, like the split lip.

[Note: Since I posted this, it's been pointed out to me by commenters that the reference to "An Emergency Response Notice of Referral Disposition" in the complaint likely indicates that Dr. Bob did think enough of the story to report the incident, as it is also mentioned that it also had a notation of "Allegations cannot be substantiated—case closed." Of course, that Dr. Bob believed the story enough to have reported it makes his failure to do a proper neurological examination all the more egregious a failure.]

Be that as it may, the bottom line is that Dr. Bob did see J.G. a few times for various medical issues. One of those issues was how he dealt with the child's head injury. The other issue that drew the attention of the board was this:

The standard of care requires that a physician evaluating a patient for a possible reaction to vaccines obtain a detailed history of the vaccines previously received as well as the reaction/reactions that occurred. Based on that information, the physician should provide evidence-based recommendations for future immunizations.

Respondent was grossly negligent and departed from the standard of care in that he did not obtain the basic information necessary for decision making proior to determining to exclude the possibility of future vaccines, leaving both patient J.G, the patient’s mother, and his future contacts at risk for preventable and communicable diseases.

Based on Dr. Bob’s granting of the medical exemption to vaccinations for J.G. and his failure to do a neurological examination of the child when he presented with persistent headaches after head trauma, the Board listed the first cause for disciplining Dr. Bob as gross negligence. The second cause for discipline was repeated negligent acts, given that there were two instances of gross negligence included in the complaint. The third cause for discipline was failure to maintain adequate and accurate medical records.

The complaint calls for:

  1. Revoking or suspending Physician’s and Surgeon’s Certificate Number A60936 issued to Robert Sears, MD;
  2. Revoking, suspending, or denying approval of his authority to supervise physician assistants, pursuant to section 3527 of the Code;
  3. If placed on probation, ordering him to pay the Board the costs of probation monitoring;
  4. Taking such other and further action as deemed necessary and proper.

The complaint is dated September 2, the Friday before the Labor Day weekend. Not surprisingly, now that the Board's complaint is public, the merry band of antivaccine loons at Age of Autism is up in arms, and other antivaccine sites are, predictably, referring to the Board's disciplinary action as a "witch hunt."

When I saw the news story, I must admit that I was surprised. This incident occurred before the passage of SB 277. Why did Dr. Bob write a letter supporting a medical exemption to school vaccine requirements for J.G.? He didn’t need to. The mother could have just gotten a personal belief exemption. So why did Dr. Bob do it? Why did the mother ask him for an exemption? Didn't she know about personal belief exemptions? At this time, I just don't know. The other issue that puzzles me is why the board chose this case. True, it’s pretty egregious not to have examined J.G. properly when his mother brought him in with persistent headache after head trauma. (Very sloppy doctoring there, Dr. Bob.) It’s also pretty questionable to have written a letter supporting a medical exemption based on J.G.'s history and such dubious reasoning. As bad as these lapses were, normally a state medical board would probably not bother with them, as underfunded and outmanned as they usually are. Yet California is going after him. Like Steve Novella and Reuben, I definitely approve of the Board's willingness to take this risk.

I suspect that the Board wants to make an example out of Dr. Bob, which to me is also a good thing. He's a high profile antivaccine doctor whose Vaccine Book is widely read by parents and supports an "alternate vaccine schedule" that is based on fear mongering rather than science, and lately he's been opining on how the measles isn't that bad while laying down a lot of other antivaccine misinformation. If the Board is successful it will make other antivaccine docs think twice about writing exemption letters based on a questionable history of vaccine reaction and non-evidence-based reasons. It's also risky, too. Dr. Sears has become an instant martyr to the cause among antivaccine activists, and his family's celebrity will make it easy for him to grab the limelight and portray himself as wrongly "persecuted" for his "vaccine safety" views. That makes the Board's action a high-risk strategy to send a message. If it loses, Dr. Bob and those who want to sell medical exemptions to circumvent SB 277 will be emboldened.

I only hope that the Board has the opportunity to add to Dr. Sears’ charges. After all, his selling bogus medical exemptions after the passage of SB 277 using an online form is far more egregious than the incident that the Board is going after Sears for. I suspect that, given Sears’ history, there’s a lot more to be found. I really hope that the father who sent me the letters that Dr. Bob Sears generated based on an Internet form has contacted the Medical Board of California. Now would most definitely be an excellent time to do so.

I'm also expecting all manner of conspiracy theories to flow once the antivaccine movement latches on to this news. Believe it or not, I had nothing to do with this. I will be honest, though. I wish I had.

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This is rather puzzling. Well, it's not at all puzzling that the medical care given by Sears is grossly negligent, but, rather, that there is much worse out there Sears has done (and been reported for) that's received absolutely no response from the California Medical Board. It is worth noting that in the "Parties" section of the Complaint report the sole Complainant as Kimberly Kirchmeyer who "brings this accusation solely in her official capacity as the Executive Director of the Medical Board of California". She was appointed to this position in 2/2014 after having been an interim director for ~ 8 months and having been with the Medical Board since 1999 ( http://www.mbc.ca.gov/About_Us/Media_Room/2014/news_releases_20140212_d… ) . So this complaint against Sears didn't come from a parent or physician, nor did it come from someone brand new to the Medical Board.

Al Capone was brought down by tax evasion. My concern is this complaint against Sears reads more like trying to jail him for jaywalking, rather than going after him for something more egregious such as what you reported in late July where Sears had been reported for giving an exemption without even examining the patient. Also, Art Kaplan laid out last year other reasons previously used by the California Medical Board with other physicians as to why Sears should lose his license ( https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/revoke-the-license-of-any-docto… ). As you do, I would also like to see more complaints brought against Sears for the grossly negligent care he's given his patients (he freely admitted half his patients are completely unvaccinated to the LA Times in 2014) and the many parents he has scared out of vaccinating nationwide with his books and social media presence. I worry the Medical Board has already zeroed in on what it wants.

Perhaps the true goal of this complaint is directed at those wanting to hand out vaccine exemptions in California like candy--a strong warning that they had better be prepared to document and defend the exemptions they write. The case you wrote on in late July about Sears not examining a patient might not truly worry the exemption-writing carpetbaggers too much (as in they would always examine the patient), but the idea they might actually have to provide evidence-based recommendations concerning future vaccinations in their notes (gasp!).

By Chris Hickie (not verified) on 08 Sep 2016 #permalink

I wonder why this case and not the one you mentioned - with no physical exam before exemption - as well. And why was a complain brought, if the mother wanted the exemption?

There are some strange things about this story, though it may just be because it's a complaint, reflecting a very simplified and aggregated version.

At least they're looking at his behavior. He has, as you point out, acted in concerning ways for a while now.

By Dorit Reiss (not verified) on 08 Sep 2016 #permalink

I would wonder if this set of (alleged) violations was selected to set a bar for the future. If this action isn't successful, the can be brought up a little next time.

Welcome news, and hopefully this will lead to more kids being protected from Sears' self-serving and inadequate care.

I expect, though, that the broader Sears family will bring their celebrity and money to bear on this case, whipping up their fan base into a frothy frenzy.

I have a suspicion that Child Protective Services is somehow involved in this, and also perhaps custody battle. The stuff about being hit with a hammer and the split lip- I think CPS was involved and I wonder if they contacted the board regarding the negligent care.

By PrimaryCareDoc (not verified) on 09 Sep 2016 #permalink

Speaking of the fan base, AoA has a protest article already up describing the charges (but somehow failing to mention the part about lack of a neurologic exam for the child Daddy supposedly hit with the hammer). AoA's typically nuanced conclusion:

"You will vaccinate with no question of your health status, religious beliefs or personal stance. This is communism. The government controls you."

Darn right. You know who really runs the California Medical Board? Putin!!!

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 09 Sep 2016 #permalink

And...introducing the newest member of the antivaxx cult's martyr club. Sears will now join the likes of Wakefield and other victims of the BIG pHARMa Conspiracy.

"Be that as it may, Dr. Bob also saw the child in June 2014 for headache with a history of being hit on the head with a hammer by Dad two weeks prior to visit."

As other issues have already been addressed, my question is this: In what situation would the incident described above NOT be a mandatory report to CPS? A toddler hit in the head with a hammer by his father. The split lip noted prior to this incident can be passed off on the clumsiness of toddlerhood. My own daughter managed several black eyes from falling on her little face in the first couple years. We never hit her in the head with a hammer. This is not a normal childhood injury. And the second injury that could signal abuse. Why was this not reported by a mandatory reporter to be looked into?

IANAD, but wouldn't it be worrisome enough to justify at least a call to the doctor, if not a trip to the emergency room, if a baby produced no urine for 24 hours? Or was limp as a rag doll for a day? There should have been records of these events if they really occurred but it sounds like there weren't and Sears just took the mother 's word for it.

Interesting. Dr. Kirchmeyer may be bringing the complaint, but the issue had to come to her attention somehow. I have to wonder how that was, in order for her to know who the child was and obtain the medical records, but hate to speculate.

I bet that becomes an issue in the defense, though.

As a strategy to set up future action against Sears this is pretty good. It focuses on conduct prior to SB277 to show his negligence or gross negligence and if found true, his conduct subsequent to SB277 gets aggravated treatment if subject to medical board action. I suspect a suspended license rather than revocation is what the board is after. Once the license gets reinstated the board can control his conduct via terms of probation which he agrees to in exchange for the reinstatement. If he persists in negligent practice in the future the prior findings seal his fate.

By EG Gordon (not verified) on 09 Sep 2016 #permalink

Maybe the medical exemption had to do with parental conflict or a divorce and it's the other parent that brought the complaint. Pure speculation on my part.

@Paul #9: in the minds of AVers, they are martyred every time they are criticized, even in the slightest. The hard-core AVers flooding the OC Register comments section in his support feel Sears has been martyred many times already. They would follow him of a cliff. My hope is that Sears is professionally disciplined severely enough to show new parents that he is not a doctor deserving of trust. Ideally he gets "struck off" like Wakefield did in the UK. Then Sears can paint "VAXXED" on the side of his Lamborghini and follow Wakefield's bus around the US.

By Chris Hickie (not verified) on 09 Sep 2016 #permalink

Ami@#10 -- yeah, my radar went off when I read that, too.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 09 Sep 2016 #permalink

As PCD and Ami have mentioned above, my suspicion is that the real issue here isn't the vaccine exemption but the failure to report child abuse to the authorities. The claim that J.G. had been hit on the head with a hammer should have raised eyebrows at the time. It also suggests that the father wasn't the one to file the complaint, unless the mother is the abusive parent who is falsely blaming the father for the abuse (crazy spouses and ex-spouses have been known to do this). The mother got the vaccine exemption she wanted, so it's unlikely that she's the complainant. That leaves CPS as the only organization that would have standing here.

By Eric Lund (not verified) on 09 Sep 2016 #permalink

@Eric -- and as a pediatrician, Sears is of course a mandated reporter.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 09 Sep 2016 #permalink

Meanwhile, Patty Bolen is merely fixating on HBOT and "ozone therapy." Not leadership material.

The claim that J.G. had been hit on the head with a hammer should have raised eyebrows at the time. It also suggests that the father wasn’t the one to file the complaint, unless the mother is the abusive parent who is falsely blaming the father for the abuse....

I think you're getting way ahead of yourself here. (Also note that "standing" isn't required to register a complaint with the
Medical Board of California.)

I hate to take pleasure in another human being's misfortune, however richly deserved, but it's deeply satisfying to see Dr. Bob (potentially) brought down by his own greed and hubris in true comic book super-villian fashion.

Her description included, “shut down stools and urine” for 24 hours with 2 month vaccines and limp “like a ragdoll” lasting 24 hours and not himself for up to a week after 3 month vaccines.

This is so typical of the "vaccine injury" stories we see all the time that sometimes I wonder if they're read from a script. The parent describes what sounds like a pretty run-of-the-mill post-vax malaise which a) apparently wasn't severe enough to take the kid to a doctor, since there's no medical record, and b) didn't stop the parent from taking the kid back in for more shots a month later, but which now, years later and under the influence of the anti-vax movement, has morphed into vaccine-induced encephalitis and multiple organ failure. I mean, I get that even a mild vaccine reaction can be scary for a new parent, but in all the research they claim they've done they somehow missed the fact that vaccines work by inducing an immune response and that mild flu-like symptoms are a totally normal part of that? So much so, in fact, that I've often wondered if there's any correlation between mild vaccine reactions and efficacy.

“State Medical Board’s Balls Finally Drop” – every pediatrics newsletter. Fingers crossed.

Last week you mentioned Sears when you reported on the AAP getting tougher on vaccine exemptions, which analyzed the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) position paper on vaccine hesitancy and refusal. Near the end of the your article you state:

One thing that’s missing from the AAP statement is a discussion of pediatricians who promote antivaccine misinformation, such as “Dr. Bob” Sears, who not only promotes antivaccine pseudoscience but is basically selling highly dubious medical exemptions online to help parents get around SB 277. The AAP needs to come out forcefully to condemn such physicians in no uncertain terms and then to take action to show that their words are more than just words. That action would be to expel such pediatricians from their organization.

It's no surprise I, too, want FAAP Sears (along with fellow FAAPs Jay Gordon and (most recently) Paul Thomas) expelled from the AAP for their anti-vaccinationism. Well, that AAP position paper has a comments section, and I submitted this comment.

Here is the AAP's response from Mark Neuman, MD, MPH, an assistant editor at Pediatrics and also an associate professor in pediatric emergency medicine at Boston Children's Hospital:

Dear Dr. Hickie.

Thank you for your comment submission to Pediatrics.

We cannot post the comment as written, but would consider re-reviewing if you tone down the rhetoric. Specifically, would help if you could broaden the scope to address anti-vaccine pediatricians (rather than solely addressing Dr. Sears).

If you would like to submit a new version, we would be happy to review it again. This link provides the author instructions: http://www.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics-author-guidelines#rea…

Please note: Resubmission of your comment should again be done online, not as a reply to this email.

Sincerely,

Mark Neuman MD MPH
Assistant Editor, Pediatrics

Given what I've stated is fact regarding Sears, I'm not sure what rhetoric needs toning down. Again, just how damned dangerous does Sears have to be before the AAP will address him (even now he is rallying his Luddite minions on his Facebook page by posting on this Medical Board Complaint)? Can Sears only be criticized once by the AAP and then only not directly by the AAP but via the Offit/Moser paper from 2009? I'm glad to see the Medical Board of California is now seriously taking Sears to task, but the AAP still is full of AAPathy with respect to combatting anti-vaccinationism, which is a damn shame.

By Chris Hickie (not verified) on 09 Sep 2016 #permalink

Well, they did say "broaden it"--maybe start by saying "anti-vaccine physicians such as Dr. Bob Sears" instead of just naming him. The only toning down I can think of offhand would be that they may be unhappy about the word "disgraceful." How would "clear" or "major deviation from the standard of medical care" do? And maybe "This disregard for public health was borne out..." instead of "this is a disgraceful disregard..."

What is particularly troubling about the complaint is the suggestion that treatment must be tailored not just for the best interests of the patient, but for the best interests of the patient's 'future contacts'--i.e., others.

The vaccine exemption is not the least bit concerning. The parent reported the previous adverse vaccine reactions, and apparently wanted the exemption, having decided not to consent to further vaccinations.

It's interesting that a doctor with such a moderately 'noncompliant' stance regarding vaccine doctrine would be targeted. It wouldn't be surprising to learn that the underlying impetus is a contentious divorce or custody battle.

By NWO Reporter (not verified) on 09 Sep 2016 #permalink

His appeals to his fan base will no doubt frame this as persecution due to his anti vaccine stance.
This is not a vaccination issue.
One (very) simple version of events is that, he can give a medical exemption if he follows a certain process.
He didn't do so.

If he prescribed medicine x to someone under 10 years old and the protocol said "not to be given to under 10s" then the resulting consequence should be the same.

Also note that “standing” isn’t required to register a complaint with the
Medical Board of California.

Maybe "standing" isn't the right word (IANAL, nor am I a resident of California). But because of HIPAA, there aren't many people who could legally have known enough about J.G.'s medical history to file this complaint. The parents or legal guardians, of course. If J.G. were later seen by another physician, this physician would have a legitimate need to know the medical history--there isn't enough information to determine whether this other physician, if he exists, was the guy who called CPS's attention to the case or whether he was brought in by CPS (in the latter case, the doctor would have known to look for such things). Alternatively, there might be a whistleblower in Dr. Bob's office. The CPS case manager (whatever the correct title is) would have legitimate reason to know. The other possibility is that if there is a custody battle in progress and a legal representative for the child has been appointed, this representative might be considered a guardian for HIPAA purposes.

The point is that the complainant has to have known of J.G.'s previously being a patient of Dr. Bob, and that the complainant must have had some reason to look at the details of that relationship. There is no upside for either parent to have done this, unless one is defending against the other's false accusations of child abuse: it is generally known that convicted child abusers are regarded by other prison inmates as the lowest of the low and are treated accordingly. A whistleblower would probably complain about other cases, not just J.G.'s. That leaves either CPS or a custody battle, and if CPS were not involved prior to the custody battle, they almost certainly are now.

By Eric Lund (not verified) on 09 Sep 2016 #permalink

You misrepresent information so effortlessly, it is really something to behold. You make baseless claims but then include a link which is supposed to give the appearance of substantiating your claim. Example, you cite yourself (what a surprise!) in your claim "Given Dr. Bob’s history of ... and even outright selling nonmedical exemptions". Well I read your blog entry you cite, and nowhere in it do you provide ANY shred of evidence that Dr. Sears or anyone else is "selling nonmedical exemptions".

So shame on you.

As for this current "scandal", is it or is not not within the medical doctor's discretion whether or not to grant a medical exemption? While Pan and Allen were pushing for SB277 they argued repeatedly, in order to assuage concerns from lawmakers and opponents of the bill, that yes, indeed, doctors will be able to use their own medical judgement when deciding whether or not to grant medical exemptions in order to protect children who may be at an increased risk of injury from vaccination. But then what happened once this bill was passed? In some counties the health agencies decided they would scrutinize all medical exemptions, as if they have the expertise and the right to do so.

And what is happening now? Even you admit that the Medical Board is likely trying to make an example of Dr. Sears. Like others who have come before him, Dr. Sears in this case is only guilty of one thing...listening to a parent who is trying to protect their child.

By David Foster (not verified) on 09 Sep 2016 #permalink

David Foster @29: You seem to be under the impression that there are no standards in medicine. Yes, Dr. Sears was allowed to make a vaccine exemption, but only after taking a fully history. He did not do that, so his vaccine exemption is in error.

When a patient presents with head pain and a history of injury to the head, the standard of medical care says that the doctor performs a neurological exam. Dr. Sears failed to do that in the case of this patient.
Dr. Sears is in trouble with the board for doing his job wrong.

Frankly, any pediatrician who fails to do basic checks on a child with a head injury inflicted by a parent is in dereliction of their oaths as a doctor and a mandated reporter.

By JustaTech (not verified) on 09 Sep 2016 #permalink

David Foster @29: "Doctor Bob" clearly should have examined contemporaneous records rather than rely on parental report. If the Wakefield debacle isn't enough to convince you, consider the discrepancy between parental report and medical records in this case:

BS Hooker said this of his son in "Vaxxed: “Two weeks after his 15 month vaccines, then he lost all language. He lost all eye contact. You would pick him up and he would just hang limp.” However, the public documents from Hooker’s failed suit in “Vaccine Court” stand in marked contrast: the records and make it clear that nineteen days following receipt of those vaccines the Hookers took their child to the pediatrician because of concern that the scheduled surgical placement of "ear tubes" might have to be delayed because the Hookers suspected that he had an ear infection. They did not mention that he had "lost all contact” or “lost all language” or that “he would just hang limp.” The medical records clearly note that other than low-grade fever and symptoms of a cold, “no other recent symptoms were noted.” No other symptoms, such as no signs that "he would just hang limp," etc.

Should "Doctor Bob" grant Hooker's son a life-long medical exemption from vaccination based on what he says and perhaps mistakenly believes?

Mr. Foster, the report said the child had been hit by a hammer by the father. That is very serious, and should have been followed up.

You do understand that hitting a toddler with a hammer is not healthy for the child. It is right up there with making sure the kid gets chicken pox and other vaccine preventable diseases.

Let me get this right....You want to get rid of a doctor because he is looking out for the best interest of his patient.... a patient that had a bad reaction to a vaccine... and you assholes want to give the kid a vaccine again??? WTF is wrong with you people. You're a bunch of sick, satanic assholes.

No. I can't speak for others, but before a doctor decides a child doesn't get protected from disease, I want him to actually have a basis.

A diagnosis of encephalitis based on nothing, no tests or records, isn't such a basis, nor are the other claims by the mother.

I would also like a doctor faced with a two year old whose dad took a hammer to his head, according to the mom, to test and make sure the child is okay.

When a doctor fails a child multiple times like this, I'm glad to see the board step up.

Let's put aside the vaccine exemption for a moment. You have no criticism for a doctor that apparently doesn't check up on a two year old that, he heard, got a hammer to the head?

By Dorit Reiss (not verified) on 09 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Brian (not verified)

I wonder how many people on the California Board of Medicine have ties to Merck?

I wonder how many people on the California Board of Medicine have ties to Merck?

Why don't you check?

^ Here, given that there's no such thing as the "California Board of Medicine," I'll help get you started: Correlate this with this.

I haven't looked, so there's no telling from my perspective.

My hypotheses: Dad never hit J. G. with hammer. Sears didn't order a neuro exam or file a CPS report because it there was no evidence J. G. had been struck with a blunt object and suffered a concussion, and he did not believe Mom's story. Dad is the source for the Board. He's suing for custody of J. G., Dr. Bob has been supporting Mom in the litigation, and Dad wants him discredited (probably with good justification).

Rationale:
1) A two-year-old struck in the head with a hammer would more likely be dead than suffering a headache.
2) The complaint reads "leaving both patient J.G, the patient’s mother, and his future contacts at risk for preventable and communicable diseases." The absence of Dad from this language suggests Dad is no longer in contact with J. G., Mom currently having sole custody.
3) The complaint notes Sears first saw J. G. for a "two year", 10 days before he drafted the letter supporting the medical exemption. Thus Dr. Bob was not the physician who administered the immunizations, and would have noted any reactions. This suggests Mom went exemption-shopping when she couldn't get what she wanted from J. G.'s previous pediatrician, who may have known there was no serious adverse reaction to report. The doctor switch may also have been related to the parents' separation and custody struggle, i.e. Dad wanted the kid to see the legit doctor.

Analysis: If I'm right, and Sears has to defend himself on the 'hammer' thing by saying he didn't believe Mom's crazy account of J. G.'s headache, he's screwed on taking Mom's word for J. G.'s 'adverse vaccine reactions' and approving a medical exemption w/o getting medical documentation of what vaccines J.G. had received and his reactions to them.

Since the link above now returns a 404 error, here's the exact language from the complaint about the hammer:

On June 23, 2014, patient J.G. presented to Respondent with a chief complaint of headache with a history of patient being "hit on head with hammer" by Dad two weeks prior to the visit. A mention is made of a split lip prior to hammer incident without any additional history. A physical examination indicates, "no residual marks now." No additional physical exam including neurological testing, was performed and no assessment with plans was recorded...
Respondent departed from the standard of care by failing to conduct neurological testing as part of the physical examination of patient J.G. on June 23, 2014, when he presented to Respondent with complaints of headache, following head trauma...
Respondent failed to maintain adequate and accurate records related to the care and treatment of patient J.G. Specifically, he failed to document an adequate physical examination of the patient on his visit of April 23, 2014, and merely wrote, "no residual marks."

A two-year-old struck in the head with a hammer would more likely be dead than suffering a headache.

Your rationale falls apart right there, because this is not true. You seem to be assuming that the dad swung the hammer with all his might, when it is rare for a parent to do something like that unless it's one of those rare parents who is striking with lethal intent. More commonly, such injuries are due to the adult wanting to "teach the kid a lesson."

Finally, even if Sears didn't believe the story, the very fact that the mother reported it absolutely mandates a careful neurologic examination of the child, which Dr. Bob did not do. Now, maybe he did do it and didn't document it, but in medical law if it isn't documented it wasn't done.

Also, it is very risky for a mandated reporter, like a pediatrician, to dismiss a story stating that a child was hit in the head with a hammer that has even a germ of credibility. If a mandated reporter turns out to be wrong in not believing the story, he would be putting himself in grave legal jeopardy. It's far safer to let CPS look into it.

I do agree, though, that it is very likely that there very likely is divorce and/or child custody litigation going on, with Dr. Bob being the preferred pediatrician of the mother. Also, your speculation that the mother switched doctors because the original pediatrician wouldn't go along wither her desire not to vaccinate and picked Dr. Bob instead is plausible.

You seem to be assuming that the dad swung the hammer with all his might

I'm just coming to from another wretched postprandial nap-like experience, but in the complaint, is this anything more than "some sort of hammery object held by father somehow came into contact with child's head"?

Lower case brian is making a lot more sense than capitalized Brian.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 09 Sep 2016 #permalink

Good thing I saved the PDF, as the Medical Board appears to have removed the complaint from its website.

It's all very vague. At the visit the chief complaint is reported as headache, with a history of being "hit on head with hammer" by Dad two weeks prior to visit. That's all the description.

@Eric Lund:

Omitting the prison talk:

The point is that the complainant has to have known of J.G.’s previously being a patient of Dr. Bob, and that the complainant must have had some reason to look at the details of that relationship.

Yah, OK, but I don't know what sort of investigatory powers the MBC has, and it could have been a next friend, etc. It just strikes me as quite premature to be playing Professor Plum with a candlestick in the billiard room.

Prof. Reiss:

Dr. Bob did put "An Emergency Response Notice of Referral Disposition dated June 25, 2014 with "Allegations cannot be substantiated - case closed" outcome" iin J. G.'s chart.

So the question for 'Brian' should probably be, 'You have no criticism for a doctor so credulous or unethical that when his client explained her two-year-old's routine headache as the result of being hit "on head with hammer" by Dad, despite physical evidence that this allegation was a fabulation, he wrote that this actually occurred in his records anyway?"

I don't a good basis here to be confident it isn't true, and I don't see the doctors, who actually have expertise in this, saying that.

As Narad pointed out, I don't know that we have enough to reach any conclusions on who complained. I think he made a strong point on that.

By Dorit Reiss (not verified) on 09 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by sadmar (not verified)

"Don't see."

By Dorit Reiss (not verified) on 09 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Dorit Reiss (not verified)

Well, rats.

My sister from CA is visiting next week, and my plan was to recruit her in my quest to get a vaccine exemption for my neighbors dog (I was going to use her mailing address).

Now I'll need to wait and try after Sears (hopefully doesn't) "survives".

Brian: "…. a patient that had a bad reaction to a vaccine"

How do you know that? That paperwork seems to not exist. Quoting from the quoted part in the article:

"The documents say Sears failed to obtain a detailed medical history documenting the unidentified boy’s prior vaccines and reactions, ..."

and: "Respondent for what medical records describe as a “two year.” The visit of this date includes a summary of the patient’s history with a brief description of J.G.’s prior vaccination reaction, as described by the patient’s mother."

Apparently there were no medical records of that dire reaction. If anything Sears is being disciplined for very lousy record keeping, especially of a child with severe neurological impacts.

Those records are extremely important if that child needs special education supports and to qualify for disability services. My son's seizures and developmental history have been well documented, which have been crucial in getting him the services he needs.

It is almost a criminal act if Dr. Sears lazy record keeping prevents that child getting services (which are not easy to apply for).

@ Orac #40:

I ran all the scenarios I could imagine of “some sort of hammery object held by father somehow came into contact with child’s head” through my head, and didn't come up with anything plausible. I can't imagine an adult wanting to “teach the kid a lesson” doing so with a hammer, as the it would take a fine touch to separate punitive force from seriously injurious force, and so many less dangerous 'educational instruments' would be available.

So, yeah, if a parent waits two weeks after a concussion to take a toddler to a doctor, and then the kid shows no evidence whatsoever of his headache having been caused by blunt force trauma, I think a mandated reporter might conclude Mom's story didn't have even a germ of credibility. Or, more to the point of AV wacky, since Dr. Bob actually listened to Mom's explanation, he may have recognized verbal and non-verbal cues indicating the story was, uhhh, the ravings of a nut-job, or something like that...

Ah, but he did place "An Emergency Response Notice of Referral Disposition" in the chart. When I first read the complaint, I wasn't clear on what that meant and it was late and I was tired, but it now looks to me as though he did file a report to CPS and that the allegations could not be substantiated. (I might even go back and make a note to that effect in the post itself.) My interpretation now is that Dr. Bob did think enough of the story to report it to CPS, which makes his failure to do a good neurological examination on JG just as egregious as I described it and just as much sloppy doctoring as I described it.

Two weeks is long enough for a bump on the head to subside, and you don't have to have a fracture to have a significant closed head injury, such as a concussion or subarachnoid hemorrhage.

@ Chris #49

Dr. Bob wasn't J. G.'s pediatrician when J. G. got the shots, so that's not his record-keeping problem. I read the complaint as asserting Sears issued the medical exemption solely on Mom's account, without obtaining J. G.'s records from J. G.'s prior pediatrician. My hypothesis would be that Dr. Bob didn't request the records because he suspected Mom's descriptions of "shut down stools and urine" for 24 hours after 2 month vaccines and limp "like a ragdoll" for 24 hours after 3 month vaccines were fabula the records would not support, and knowing what the records would say he could not write the exemption letter Mom desired (and was paying cash for...).

Good thing I saved the PDF, as the Medical Board appears to have removed the complaint from its website.

It's still there, wrapped in a crappy interface: In my case, enter license number 60936 here, click on the row itself, and rename 'document.aspx' to 'something.pdf'.

^ "downloaded 'document.aspx'." YMMV.

@Orac

It looks like the full complaint is still available. When I went to the Medical Board of California, clicked on Public Documents, and then Enforcement Public Document Search, I was able to find the complaint by searching on Dr. Sears' name.

Better to go after Sears for this shoddy medical care than the egregious web exemptions. Why?

Watch out Jay Gordon.

By MadisonMD (not verified) on 09 Sep 2016 #permalink

@ Orac and Prof. Reiss:

My hypotheses are just that, not conclusions made with any confidence. I certainly don't dismiss the possibility that the presentation of J. G. and Mom's story did warrant a neuro exam, or that someone other than Dad contacted the Board.

As for the "Emergency Response Notice of Referral Disposition”, I'd guess Sears felt obligated to file something regardless of how credible he found Mom's tale. Since that notice is dated 6/25/14 and the office visit was two days prior, I'd guess Dr. Bob was able to to make enough inquiries with J. G., Mom, and maybe third parties such that, along with his physical exam of J. G., allowed him to rule out significant closed head injury and conclude "Allegations cannot be substantiated", to put it mildly. Regardless, I'd think he failed his de facto (if not de jure) responsibility by failing to document how and why he concluded the "allegations cannot be substantiated" beyond the initial note of "no residual marks now." My hypothesis (just a guess, now) would be that he chose not to explain because it would have looked bad for Mom, who he was attempting to 'serve' and cultivate as an ongoing cash-paying client.

@Madison MD #56: Somehow in 2006 Gordon escaped losing his license when he failed to test a child for HIV who had an HIV-positive mother as well as the patient herself having failure to thrive and a persistent cough. The child died shortly thereafter. You can read about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliza_Jane_Scovill?wprov=sfla1 .

Its shameful that apparently nothing happened to Gordon over this.

By Chris Hickie (not verified) on 09 Sep 2016 #permalink

Before my head explodes, does anyone know offhand whether § 2227(b) of the California Business & Professions Code is necessary for making the document public? (Yah, yah, I just wanted to write it down before I forgot.)

sadmar: "Dr. Bob wasn’t J. G.’s pediatrician when J. G. got the shots, so that’s not his record-keeping problem. I read the complaint as asserting Sears issued the medical exemption solely on Mom’s account, without obtaining J. G.’s records from J. G.’s prior pediatrician"

This is where it is a problem. The follow up physician needs to get the records from the previous physician. This has been easily done for both of my son's neurologists and cardiologists to our family physician.

If Dr. Sears could not get those records, he needed to record that. As it is.. a letter he wrote in 2014 is missing. He has failed to keep on top of basic record keeping. Very important record keeping.

This may be because he hired a totally incompetent office manager. But even if he hired the best one, they cannot work unless he directs them to contact the previous doctor.

By the way, I was given copies of much of this paper work. Which I kept. It has been scanned and converted to easily transferred PDFs. While I can fault the mother for not keeping stuff... she should have been able to get records from the medical clinics. Something I have also done from two different medical entities at the request of the Mayo Clinic prior to my son's open heart surgery.

Seriously, I know the drill.

Those records are important. It is why the Mayo Clinic sent a fellow pretty much running across Rochester, MN to St. Mary's Hospital to stop the cardiac MRI my son just as he was finished getting prepped. Apparently they had just reviewed the cardiac MRI from our local university hospital and deemed it sufficient.

Sending them those medical records by the most expensive registered mail available was worth it to save both the health insurance company several thousands of dollars and my son from spending any more time in one of those very noisy claustrophobic machines. I have some very special comments on the Mayo Clinic policy of "waiting until the lasts minute" to deal with previous medical records. (I decided to walk the halls of that rather historic hospital while son was getting prepped, and then I got a frantic call on my phone, so I returned to the MRI waiting area to speak to a very out of breath medical fellow... who told me that my son who was prepped/gowned and ready to go did not have to get that particular MRI).

Did anyone mention that Sears was getting trouble mostly because of his crappy records management? Only someone who has never had any complicated medical issues would think that is trivial. It is not.

And now, here's what happens when a state medical board abdicates it's sworn duty (despite 38 complaints against this quack): Jack Wolfson, DO, FACC is now making a movie to presumably show how amazing he was back last year when he said children need to get measles, mumps and chicken pox and also said that he wouldn't feel bad if his unvaccinated child gave a fatal VPD to an immune compromised child.
https://www.facebook.com/creativedoorway/photos/a.360170897472953.10737….

By Chris Hickie (not verified) on 09 Sep 2016 #permalink

The local CBS radio news station had a brief story on the Sears investigation this evening (Friday), including mentioning him by name. They didn't provide a response from either Sears or his representative. I would guess that this is the first time that most listeners have ever heard of him.

Competent Medical Professionals never said that patients won't die from vaccines, they likely will. We have merely stated that by receiving the vaccine we are reducing the risk of death at least ten-fold. The state medical board California Medical Board did their job and it made national news. However, in reference to other state medical boards such as Missouri, the past is prologue http://dx.doi.org/10.4172/2375-4273.1000155 - a history of repeatedly misrepresenting evidence.

By Brett Snodgrass (not verified) on 10 Sep 2016 #permalink

Just clarify for those commenting about Dr. Sears giving an ME with just an online questionnaire and a fee without an exam is completely false.

"Did anyone mention that Sears was getting trouble mostly because of his crappy records management?"

For the medical professionals in the house -- would Sears' casual attitude towards records keeping be due in part to his not accepting insurance? I can't see any insurance carrier putting up with a practitioner who didn't dot all the i's and cross all the t's.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 10 Sep 2016 #permalink

@ Shay #67--not necessarily. Sears probably takes cash-only so he doesn't have to deal with the hassles of getting paid by insurance companies (and it is a hassle). It also gives him a faux air of "I'm too good for insurance companies" that a lot of "holistic" quack doctors have (though depending on what "therapies" they offer, insurances might not credential them anyhow. Also, as I've said, Sears may not even carry medical malpractice insurance (which insurances require but the State of California does not) which would save him 20-30K a year. But as a licensed physician, regardless of his practice model, Sears is required to keep adequate patient notes and also be competent in his skills--that is what has him in hot water right now. Also of interest (to me at least) is that the pictures of Sears in the last few years in his office show lots of paper charts--indicative to me that he isn't even technologically adept enough to go to electronic records--but hey, what do you expect from a doctor who practices like vaccines don't matter?

By Chris Hickie (not verified) on 10 Sep 2016 #permalink

Dr Hickie -- thanks. My experience was in public health, and I didn't work on the clinical side.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 10 Sep 2016 #permalink

For the medical professionals in the house — would Sears’ casual attitude towards records keeping be due in part to his not accepting insurance? I can’t see any insurance carrier putting up with a practitioner who didn’t dot all the i’s and cross all the t’s.

I think it could indeed be in part due to his not accepting insurance. For one thing, insurance companies will require CPT codes and now ICD-10 codes for billing, and those have to be documented. An EMR makes that easier. Basically, Sears' record-keeping strikes me as very, very old school, back from the 1970s, before managed care and before DRGs, when scribbled notes without a lot of detail could be adequate. In 2016, such record keeping won't fly any more. It's considered grossly inadequate.

#64 Brett Snodgrass
Everytime you post, I see dead people. Why is that?

Isn't it odd to use a photo of a dead guy as your avatar?

By MadisonMD (not verified) on 10 Sep 2016 #permalink

One thing I'm unclear about is how Sears didn't see this coming 10 miles away. Did he think the medical board would never act? I seem to recall that he wrote somewhere (can't remember where) that he had insiders in the CA medical board telling him he was safe from discipline. What changed?

I mean, he must be provoking the ire of other physicians than Chris Hickie. If I practiced in OC and he gave one of my patients a med exemption for flimsy or fabricated reasons, I would discharge the family from my practice and report him to the medical board.

By Mary Russell (not verified) on 10 Sep 2016 #permalink

#71

Isn’t it odd to use a photo of a dead guy as your avatar?

I use a picture of a (now) dead cat as my avatar.

@Shay Simmons #69, I was military and we never dealt with insurance companies, but we had to keep accurate records.
Detailed as possible, if it wasn't documented, it never happened kind of documentation and an error in documentation may well be the difference between a service member receiving a VA disability rating and not receiving one that they earned the hard way.
Now, we didn't have ICD codes to contend with or CPT codes, especially in the field and field clinics (such as a battalion aid station), but we were required to utilize standardized terminology, standardized drug names and a baseline physiological measurement of "WNL" didn't mean Within Normal Limits, it meant "We Never Looked" and was actionable on a disciplinary level.
I'd feel badly enough to fail so badly as to be castigated by the physician, I'd feel far worse if our patient's care suffered or worse, a patient got screwed out of his deserved VA care and disability.

Interestingly, when that was explained to even our lowest Private, fresh out of Fort Sam, they instantly grasped the importance of those records.
Guess who became the resident medical encyclopedia and dictionary? I didn't have a problem with that, as that turned into training sessions.
Which were then documented, satisfying command that no matter where we were, we were training.

As for neurological examination after a blunt trauma to the head, we had a soldier fall from the back of a 5 ton cargo truck (we use the trucks to carry either cargo or personnel, but both should never be carried at the same time for safet reasons). Several days later, he complained of blurring vision, all sign of his fall already being healed. While we were examining him, his speech began to slur.
We arranged immediate evacuation to a local civilian medical center with significant diffuse edema of his brain and a modest bleed. He arrived at the local trauma center unconscious, unresponsive to painful stimuli.
After treatment, he returned to duty uneventfully, several months later.
Had we did the Bob Sears number, he'd have expired.
His prior complaint before the blurring vision? Headaches, which weren't reported to us at the time, but cropped up during the history.

#73 Is the photo taken from the obits page of an online paper?
Most people photos I've seen are understood to be the poster.

I have the impression that Brett is using it to imply a gravitas that he may feel is lacking in his own photo. But perhaps Brett could explain better...

By MadisonMD (not verified) on 10 Sep 2016 #permalink

Dr. Hickie,

That Wolfson film is no more a documentary than any of Eric Merola's informercials for Burzynski.

I spent some time at the production company Creative Doorway's website. They're a branding outfit that churns out marketing films for clients, from storyboard to final print. So essentially "The Drs. Wolfson" (a brand they've set up with dozens of products to sell) commissioned this production house to make a commercial for their brand.

At least the company is honest about they do:

"Creative Doorway is a creative marketing company that specializes in innovative brand image fabrication. With a skilled team designed to devise the ideal package for company and or personal branding uniqueness."

Unlike Merola, Wakefield and many others, they admit this is nothing more than a commercial.

The same company is also doing a marketing film for a stem cell clinic.

I doubt if "Wide Awake" will be an Academy Award nominee next year.

By Woo Fighter (not verified) on 10 Sep 2016 #permalink

Wiz, I was military too. If it wasn't written down, it didn't happen.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 10 Sep 2016 #permalink

#75

#73 Is the photo taken from the obits page of an online paper?
Most people photos I’ve seen are understood to be the poster.

I have the impression that Brett is using it to imply a gravitas that he may feel is lacking in his own photo. But perhaps Brett could explain better…

You may assume that. I don't. But I also don't make assumptions about people's character based on their avatars.

Hmm. Perhaps Bob Sears could have saved that child from abuse if he had reported the incidents, but he did save some face by exempting a child from aluminum poisoning and a possible cytokine storm.

So all in all, Bob Sears is aboutpar for the course.

By Lars Ørnsted (not verified) on 10 Sep 2016 #permalink

Even with a full diagnostic up and notification to authorities, "saving" a kid from abuse can be a complete fantasy regardless.

TOTALLY off topic and I'm sorry. I'm writing a paper and because of a username fluke I can't get in to my university library database. Can someone with a JAMA account download this article for me?

If you reply that you've got it I'll figure out how to get you my email.

Thinking and Depression
I. Idiosyncratic Content and Cognitive Distortions
AARON T. BECK, MD
Arch Gen Psychiatry. 1963;9(4):324-333. doi:10.1001/archpsyc.1963.01720160014002

PS: I'm a mandatory reporter and small child + head + hammer + intimations of purposeful nature of injury? Report!

Sadmar #50:

"I ran all the scenarios I could imagine of “some sort of hammery object held by father somehow came into contact with child’s head” through my head, and didn’t come up with anything plausible."

Beware the argument from personal incredulity. Because one person can't imagine a particular scenario doesn't mean reality can't make it happen. People are weird. Some of them are clumsy. Some of them are evil. And then there are those who are evil but manage to persuade themselves that they're doing good.

By irenedelse (not verified) on 11 Sep 2016 #permalink

I ran all the scenarios I could imagine of “some sort of hammery object held by father somehow came into contact with child’s head” through my head, and didn’t come up with anything plausible.

That's nice. Have you done trauma before? Would you like to hear some of my old war stories from back when I was a resident and my early years as an attending, about the crazy ways people got injured or escaped serious injury? It could well be that the story about the hammer was the mother lying, but it could also be that the story happened as related. When it's a child and you're the mandated reporter, you have to err on the side of believing the story.

Seriously, though. The argument from personal incredulity is a major logical fallacy, particularly when you don't have the background to know what is and isn't possible or likely.

@DB #84, I am onboard with the good doctor for testing the Zika virus vaccine as well.
This area is lousy with aedes aegypti, the heat index today will be 105 and there's a storm drainage "bayou" full of stagnant water behind my garage. It's quite probable that the virus will become endemic here soon.
Annoyingly, that specific species of mosquito seems to find me irresistible, regardless of what precautions I've taken.
While, Zika infection wouldn't be much of a hazard to me, it'd be nice to help render others immune via testing any candidate vaccine.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 11 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Dangerous Bacon (not verified)

I also don’t make assumptions about people’s character based on their avatars.

The presence of a Gravatar is a bit telling, though, as the f*cking thing will record your traffic on any Gravatar-enabled site whether or not you've signed up, last I checked.

I just block it entirely.

@Vicki #25 (regarding my comment @ #24): Having revised my comment to (hopefully) meet AAP suggestions, I now find that the ability to submit comments for the "Countering Vaccine Hesitancy" ( at http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2016/08/25/peds.201… ) is not allowed (checked across 2 computers and 3 web browsers).

I do hope they haven't squelched discussion on this.

By Chris Hickie (not verified) on 11 Sep 2016 #permalink

Sadmar:

I ran all the scenarios I could imagine of “some sort of hammery object held by father somehow came into contact with child’s head” through my head, and didn’t come up with anything plausible.

The first thought that I came up with is this: father's doing some home repair, child happens to be in the area, father loses his grip on the hammer while on the upswing, hammer arcs across the room and delivers a glancing blow to the child's head.

Now, it's *plausible* that in such a scenario, if this is how it was presented to Dr Sears, that Sears thought it clearly didn't require reporting as it wasn't intentional. But he would be wrong, because he can't assume it was intentional, and because there's an implication of negligence. You probably shouldn't be swinging hammers around small children, after all, even when your only intended target is a nail, and CPS would, at minimum, give him a lecture to that effect.

Less pleasant scenario that next popped into my head: father was angry at child, and gave a swat with the hand that was holding the hammer, intending to inflict pain but not maim. Or, it may not have been an ordinary hammer. Perhaps it was a plastic toy hammer. Not all hammers are lethal weapons. I could see that as well -- father gets upset after tripping over child's toys, and in a rage throws a toy at the child. Toy happens to be a lightweight plastic toy hammer. Again, still deserves followup.

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 11 Sep 2016 #permalink

I don't know much about this doctor, but the vaccine rabid folk in the comments is what sounds crazy. Parents have had the right to choose to opt out for personal beliefs for decades and the sky wasn't falling. It's a shame to see the witch hunt nature this subject has taken on. It's got to be more complicated than black & white stance purported and to not welcome thoughtful conversation about possibilities on both sides seems like dictator science. Scientific "fact" always evolves and medical practice is just that.

By Joan Friedman (not verified) on 12 Sep 2016 #permalink

Ah, it's a witch hunt because doctor failed to keep accurate and detailed medical records about a child's blow to the head with a hammer!

As for rights, when the exercise of your rights endangers the fundamental and inalienable right to life of another, controversy ensues and government must needs become involved, lest lawless action then follow.
Under our current understanding of our Constitution and rights, we have the right to keep and bear arms. But, we do not have the right to carelessly shoot in the direction of a neighbor's home.
Meanwhile, one parent not vaccinating endangers children on chemotherapy, those with immune deficiencies and those too young to be immunized, they're shooting in the direction of neighbor's homes. All, while whining about their rights, to hell with the right to life that is inalienable of others. Now, your homework, look up the word inalienable.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 12 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Joan Friedman (not verified)

#88, How about this as a plausible scenario (purely speculative of cause):

Maybe the hammer in question isn't one you'll find in a toolbox, but rather the type of hammer (wooden mallet) you could find in a kids room. Like this one: http://i.imgur.com/RnYk0xk.jpg

If that's the case, then it wouldn't be out-of-place in a kids room. And I could imagine at least one way the father could accidentally drop it onto the kid. (father takes something of a shelf with kids toys, he doesn't notice the hammer, and accidentally drags it off the shelf and it ends up hitting the kid)

Parents have had the right to choose to opt out for personal beliefs for decades and the sky wasn’t falling. It’s a shame to see the witch hunt nature this subject has taken on.

Oh for crying out loud; this isn't a "witch hunt" and it's not about vaccine exemptions. Did you even bother to read the post and look at the supporting materials? Bob Sears grossly mishandled at least one case and I have no doubt many more will be found. It's about medical negligence not your stupid "choice" whingeing.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 12 Sep 2016 #permalink

@Joan Friedman

It’s got to be more complicated than black & white stance purported and to not welcome thoughtful conversation about possibilities on both sides seems like dictator science.

I welcome thoughtful conversation. So, let's talk. First, have you read the entire complaint against Dr. Sears? If so, are there any parts of it where you find his behavior and actions do not warrant concern or action by the board? Why do you believe so? If you have not read the complaint, why are you castigating people for their criticism of Dr. Sears without knowing the details?

Here's hoping that next the California Medical Board closely scrutinizes Dr. Jay's medical exemptions to see whether they meet the standard of care.

Trolls who live under bridges should rely on conspiracy websites and blatantly biased sources, if they don't want to get laughed at....

Trolls who live under bridges shouldn't rely on conspiracy websites and blatantly biased sources, if they don't want to get laughed at....

Argh....we need a preview pane.

@Lawrence, I hate when I get up in the morning and find someone scrambled my keycaps!
Worse, when they scramble my fingers... ;)

OK, I'm not worth much before my third cup of coffee. :/

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 13 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Lawrence (not verified)

@Peter Harris, around here, Age of Autism is known as the "Clown Blog" and with good reason. Relying on it as a source will just get you laughed at.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 13 Sep 2016 #permalink

@Julian Frost, but nowhere laughed at as hard as as when one uses whale dot to as a reference. :D

Those leave me full of mirth for days.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 13 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Julian Frost (not verified)

Awwww....c'mon, guys! You're being mean and keeping Peter Harris from quoting his favorite reading materials! I bet you frown on articles from Natural News, too! Meanies!

I still think it's hysterical that Peter won't engage with ME. But that just shows he's a coward who wants to boast about his credentials but can't face people with those as good or better than his.

@ Peter Harris, impressive sources what? No whale.to? I have no doubt the quality of your "research" is reflected in your "practice".

By Science Mom (not verified) on 13 Sep 2016 #permalink

"vaccine rabid folk"

"thoughtful conversation"

Sorry Joan, these phrases are mutually exclusive. You need to up your game when it comes to concern trolling.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 13 Sep 2016 #permalink

Those in glasshouses.
...are probably using them to grow whacky-bacy.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 13 Sep 2016 #permalink

...around here, Age of Autism is known as the “Clown Blog” and with good reason. Relying on it as a source will just get you laughed at.

Not to mention truthwiki.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 13 Sep 2016 #permalink

"Julian Frost

Gauteng East Rand
September 13, 2016
@Peter Harris, around here, Age of Autism is known as the “Clown Blog” and with good reason. Relying on it as a source will just get you laughed at."

roflmfao.

Hey Julian, this could be the funniest piece of sanctimonious hypocrisy I've heard in a long time.
Next time you shoot yourself in the foot, best you use an air rifle.

And to the other head wobblers here, if the accusations in those links were wrong, then it wouldn't be difficult to refute them, right?
So attacking me, because I posted those links, is no defence of the accusations in those links.

As i said before, there are not many sharp tools in the shed.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 13 Sep 2016 #permalink

Burzinski's lawyer is going to be representing Sears. He wrote a press release about the case.

http://rickjaffeesq.com/2016/09/13/press-release-re-dr-bob-sears-case-c…

“I represent Dr. Bob Sears in the California Medical Board’s case against him for writing a medical exemption from vaccination.

We take the board’s accusation seriously. But this case is very clear: this child had two unusual and severe vaccine reactions and his situation warranted a medical exemption. To continue vaccination could have put the child at risk of further harm.

All physicians have an ethical duty to do no harm to a patient. This is no less true when a child suffers serious side effects from any medical intervention.

We anticipate this case will do much to further public education on the importance of recognizing severe vaccine reactions and providing informed consent for medical care. ”

Rick Jaffe

let the education process begin! community support appreciated.
rj"

Pete, my boy: most of the links you posted have already been refuted on this very blog. It appears that you just aren't smart enough to pick up on that.

Speaking of self- inflicted wounds, your performance here reminds me of my favorite Molly Ivins quote: "We have all seen a man trip over his pecker. But it is truly rare to see one stomp it into the dirt."

And to the other head wobblers here, if the accusations in those links were wrong, then it wouldn’t be difficult to refute them, right?

They are wrong and have been refuted. Why don't you put that massive intellect of yours to good use and do a search using the box at the top of the page instead of vomiting up the detritus of Age of Arṡeholes and Mikey Adams. It's not like they don't have an axe to grind or something.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 13 Sep 2016 #permalink

“I represent Dr. Bob Sears in the California Medical Board’s case against him for writing a medical exemption from vaccination."

Well he's not off to a good start if he thinks it's about writing a medical exemption. Unless he's just appealing to Sears' fan base.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 13 Sep 2016 #permalink

"Pete, my boy: most of the links you posted have already been refuted on this very blog"

Most??

“We have all seen a man trip over his pecker."

With all the contortionists around here, and their disjointed replies, perhaps you better take your "pecker" out of your mouth . . . before you speak.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 13 Sep 2016 #permalink

With all the contortionists around here, and their disjointed replies, perhaps you better take your “pecker” out of your mouth . . . before you speak.

Sez the crank who uses AoA and Mikey Adams for sources. How about news accounts? Court documents? Anything reliable instead of your flaccid insults?

By Science Mom (not verified) on 13 Sep 2016 #permalink

@Science Mom
Judging by your frustration, which is on display for all to see, perhaps "flaccid" is all you can get.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 13 Sep 2016 #permalink

Hey Julian, this could be the funniest piece of sanctimonious hypocrisy I’ve heard in a long time.

Are you going to supply hard evidence, or just pile more non-sequitors on?

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 13 Sep 2016 #permalink

@Julian I think you may be expecting too much from someone who apparently thinks it's clever to suggest a woman is having trouble with her penis?

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 13 Sep 2016 #permalink

@Julie Frost.

"Are you going to supply hard evidence, or just pile more non-sequitors on?"

"supply HARD evidence" HA HA HA.

And seriously, who started with the penis gags??

The hypocrisy medal of the day goes to Julian Frost.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 13 Sep 2016 #permalink

So, no evidence, just more insults, and accusations of hypocrisy from someone who is being a hypocrite. How metahypocritical you are, Peter.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 13 Sep 2016 #permalink

Sticks 'n' stones folks, Sticks 'n' stones.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 13 Sep 2016 #permalink

And seriously, who started with the penis gags??

Penis gag?
I went to jail for something like that once.

By Lars Ørnsted (not verified) on 13 Sep 2016 #permalink

Judging by your frustration, which is on display for all to see, perhaps “flaccid” is all you can get.

So you aren't going to defend your use of the clown blog and Mikey Adams or find any legitimate sources for your ludicrous claim? Just keep trying to distract from your obvious incompetence and poor judgement?

By Science Mom (not verified) on 14 Sep 2016 #permalink

Are you really that silly, you cannot follow the normal rules of a debate?
I put those links there for YOU to defend.
If those accusations are "Ludacris," as you claim, it should be a cinch for you and your flunkies to destroy those claims, yes?

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 14 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Science Mom (not verified)

I put those links there for YOU to defend.

That isn't how it works. YOU have to defend them.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 14 Sep 2016 #permalink

"That isn’t how it works. YOU have to defend them."

I'm not sure what planet you reside on, but here on Earth, the sun rises in the east.

And water flows downhill.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 14 Sep 2016 #permalink

Peter Harris: And here on Earth, the burden of proof lies on the accuser.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 14 Sep 2016 #permalink

Oh, the grey sparrow is back with more Flim Flam.
I'm not the accuser, the people who compiled those websites are the accusers.
Have you ever heard of the phrase, "don't shoot the messenger"?

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 14 Sep 2016 #permalink

I think all the bedwetters and dribblers here have spent too much time trying to hold me accountable for those links, when they could have been spending their precious time defending their guru.

But of course, we know why.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 14 Sep 2016 #permalink

"You can't always trust the accuracy of things you read on the internet." -Abraham Lincoln

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 14 Sep 2016 #permalink

Mr. Harris, if someone went around saying you committed horrible crimes against your patients, would you accept "I'm only saying what I heard!" as a defense?

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 14 Sep 2016 #permalink

That is barely an argument, because your guru has had more than a "someone" making claims about his wrongdoing.
If you care to Google his name, "David H. Gorski" and "criticisms," together, you will find that a lot of people are making accusations about this guy.
There is a lot of smoke, and I suspect a lot of Fire.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 14 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Gray Falcon (not verified)

@Peter Harris, you said:

I’m not the accuser, the people who compiled those websites are the accusers.

But in #94, you said:

Extraordinary gall displayed here by Orac.
Gorski should be the last person allowed to pass judgment on another Dr.

In other words, you repeated the accusations as accurate, which makes you an accuser too.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 14 Sep 2016 #permalink

Comment of mine in moderation.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 14 Sep 2016 #permalink

So Mr Jaffe, lawyer extraordinaire, is defending a doctor who doesn't have good documentation? This should be fun. But then, he has experience with MDs who have lousy documentation and still get away with murder (yes, I think Burzynski has committed murder with his lies.) At least in this case, the little boy isn't suffering severe effects from being hit in the head with a hammer.

@Wyzd1: yeah, WNL - we never look/we never listen. As a nurse and CNM, if it wasn't documented, it wasn't done - and WNL didn't count as documentation. I've seen a lot of lousy documentation, though. Especially in the older MDs. And the special snowflake MDs who only accept cash so they don't have to show their lousy record keeping to the insurance companies.

Are you really that silly, you cannot follow the normal rules of a debate?
I put those links there for YOU to defend.
If those accusations are “Ludacris,” as you claim, it should be a cinch for you and your flunkies to destroy those claims, yes?

You really don't grasp how this works. Your sources are for you to defend. How on Earth can you expect us to defend your own use of very poor sources numpty? Those claims have no merit and the explanations why have already been discussed, again if you care to conduct a simple search.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 14 Sep 2016 #permalink

You can be pro-vaccine without being a vaccine fanatic.

I'm pro-vaccine and my own children have had all of the AAP recommended vaccinations. We even get the yearly flu shot. But vaccine pushers who pretend that vaccines are 100% safe are cut from the same cloth as the vaccine deniers.

Vaccine's are not 100% safe! As recently as 1999, a rotavirus vaccine RotaShield was pulled from the market for a life-threatening side-effect in children. Even a vaccine that's safe enough to be on the market needs to be made correctly. There are vaccine recalls every year.

HOWEVER, choosing to not get vaccinated is far from 100% safe!!! As we've seen with recent measles and whooping cough outbreaks, not getting vaccinated poses non-trivial risks to yourself and others. Most of the vaccines currently recommended have long track records of being effective and have low (not zero but very low) risks of serious side-effects.

This is why we have the FDA and CDC! The risks of vaccines must be constantly monitored and studied to make sure the benefits provided by the vaccine outweigh the dangers. The FDA and CDC do a good job. It's impossible to be perfect and some problems can only be discovered after a sufficient number of people have been hurt to discover the signal. But the FDA and CDC are the institutions that tip the balance of probabilities strongly in favor of getting vaccinated.

That said, risks have to be individualized by person and by vaccine. I would like to see almost everyone get vaccinated with almost all of the currently recommended vaccines. But for some people with some vaccines the risks are greater than the benefits.

I'm not familiar with all of Dr. Sears' actions or stances, but I have read "The Vaccine Book: Making the Right Decision for Your Child". This book is pro-vaccine without being fanatical. Dr. Sears' book makes a far more convincing and evidence-based case for getting vaccinated than the vaccination propaganda that denies the rare, but real, risks.

By You can be pro… (not verified) on 14 Sep 2016 #permalink

BTW, stop trying to post under a different 'nym. Using sock puppets is one of the very few offenses that will absolutely get you banned from the comments here. I did not approve your new comment and will not. You've picked your 'nym for this blog's discussion section. Now you're stuck with it. Attempts to post under other 'nyms will not be approved, and if you persist in generating new sock puppets you will be banned. This is your only warning, and I'm being generous. Normally I'd just ban you for even one attempt at using a sock puppet.

@YCBP-VWBAVF:

Dr. Sears’ book makes a far more convincing and evidence-based case for getting vaccinated than the vaccination propaganda that denies the rare, but real, risks.

That is a straw man argument. Nobody denies that vaccines have risks.
As for

As recently as 1999, a rotavirus vaccine RotaShield was pulled from the market for a life-threatening side-effect in children.

The side effect was intussusception, it was not life threatening and it increased the risk by 1-2 cases per 10,000 vaccinations.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 14 Sep 2016 #permalink

Poor Bob just can't be bothered to pawn his Lamborghini for his legal defense fund--http://standwithsears.org/ . Of note, any $$$ you send him are his to do with as he pleases--in true Sears Family carpetbagging tradition. This should be funny since Sears got embroiled in a lot of financial finger pointing with where all the anti-SB277 monies went after the passage of SB277.

By Chris Hickie (not verified) on 14 Sep 2016 #permalink

There is a lot of smoke, and I suspect a lot of Fire.

Actually, there's a lot of mirrors.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 14 Sep 2016 #permalink

"I’m pro-vaccine"

Well hurrah.

"But vaccine pushers"

Too bad, it was nice while it lasted. :(

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 14 Sep 2016 #permalink

@YCBPVWBAVF

But vaccine pushers who pretend that vaccines are 100% safe are cut from the same cloth as the vaccine deniers.

Can you point out any instance of a pro-vaccine person claiming that vaccines are 100% safe? I've never seen such a claim.

HOWEVER, choosing to not get vaccinated is far from 100% safe!!! As we’ve seen with recent measles and whooping cough outbreaks, not getting vaccinated poses non-trivial risks to yourself and others. Most of the vaccines currently recommended have long track records of being effective and have low (not zero but very low) risks of serious side-effects.

Citation, please.

FYI none of my over 5,000+ patients in the last 9 years never had a parent bringing them tell me they decided to vaccinate ( as opposed to delaying vaccines or skipping them all together )their child based on what Sears had written in his horrible book.

By Chris Hickie (not verified) on 14 Sep 2016 #permalink

I realize she tried, but she did not do a very good job attacking the claims.

She did not address how the mother's descriptions become encephalitis and kidney shutdown without any supporting documentations for those serious conditions, which were not what the mother said. Or if he believed there were these conditions, where is any follow up or treatment?

She did not really give a good explanation for not conducting testing when a boy that had a hammer to the head two weeks before came in with a headache. Read the comments above on how inappropriate that is.

She seems to think she is reading something into the notes that was not there - without elaborating what - but really, her unstated diagnosis isn't in the notes, and Dr. Sears did not justify any such things.

So this explanation appears to be based on some kind of unstated belief that isn't likely to work very well as a justification of Sears' actions.

By Dorit Reiss (not verified) on 14 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Rina (not verified)

Thanks Dorit. Woo friend of mine shared the Quackenboss link on Facebook and I knew that there were loads of holes in it, and that someone could point them out.

By Rina (not verified) on 14 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Dorit Reiss (not verified)

I expect our host and the other guests can further tear it apart. I had the advantage of reading it yesterday, so had some answers ready. :-)

By Dorit Reiss (not verified) on 14 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Rina (not verified)

Levi Quackenboss kindly explains how ridiculous the allegations against Dr. Sears are

The "Tamiflu slows brain activity" bit is made all the more hilarious by the ease of finding where it was cribbed from.

It appears that Robyn has also, by implication, concluded that the patient is Japanese. (P.S.: Not actually banned.)*

* See also PMIDs 17377552, 20121561, etc.

@ "Julian Frost

Gauteng East Rand
September 14, 2016
So, no evidence, just more insults, and accusations of hypocrisy from someone who is being a hypocrite."

Tautology alert!

I see Julie, that your grammar is on a par with your medical knowledge.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 14 Sep 2016 #permalink

@ Gray Sparrow.

"Actually, there’s a lot of mirrors."

I see.
So the world we live in, with digital platforms such as the Internet, Google and online blogs, are nothing more than mirrors huh?
Ok then.
And this "science" blog, is a beacon of supreme truth, and scientific discussion which is beyond reproach?
An island of grounded and reliable medical advice?

Ha ha ha ha

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 14 Sep 2016 #permalink

@ Science mum.

"Those claims have no merit. . ."

If that were true, then you disciples of Gorski should have no trouble in defending those accusations.
But like a true disciple - Guru relationship, the disciple slavishly follows, what ever the Guru demands, and defends the Guru, regardless how illogical that argument becomes.

I see Orac himself has been on this thread overnight, and even he has not tried to defend himself from those accusations.

One can only assume, that those accusations are true, if they cannot be challenged in a meaningful way.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 14 Sep 2016 #permalink

@Peter Harris, if you're resorting to grammar trolling instead of addressing my points, you've lost.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 14 Sep 2016 #permalink

Your "points"?

You don't have any points. . . Well, apart from the tapering extension atop of your cranium.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 14 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Julian Frost (not verified)

@Julian

He seems to just copy what's probably worked on him in the past. Meaning he was, most likely, trolled hard over his grammar and now runs whatever anyone says through an online grammar checker; thinking he's scoring points.

Mr. Harris, are you not familiar with the phrase "smoke and mirrors?" That's what I was referring to. That's all the accusations against ORAC amount to. A lie repeated one thousand times is still a lie, and everyone who repeats it is guilty of spreading it, you included.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 15 Sep 2016 #permalink

There are two good reasons why we don't compare every new vaccine to saline placebos:
1) Consider watching an ad for an expensive new floor-cleaning product. Your response is likely to be "Why can't I just use a mop?" When testing something for which an established tool exists, you want to see which one actually works better in comparison.
2) Consider the development of a newer, lighter but stronger parachute. Would you test it with someone falling out of a plane against a backpack weighted like a parachute?

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 15 Sep 2016 #permalink

@ Gray sparrow.

"That’s all the accusations against ORAC amount to."

One thing is perfectly clear, to any neutral observer reading your nonsense.
You are one unctuous and feckless fool.
You would defend your guru, at any cost, regardless of his crime.

"A lie repeated one thousand times is still a lie"

Now I agree.
There is ample evidence of that around here.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 15 Sep 2016 #permalink

@ Jay, Julie.
Calling me a troll?
Well of course, when you've got nothing intelligent left to say, and when you loose a simple debate.
Too easy huh.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 15 Sep 2016 #permalink

Mr. Harris, if ten people publish web pages all claiming you killed all your patients, would that make it true?

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 15 Sep 2016 #permalink

Indeed. And if Harris chooses not to sue for libel, the charges must be true!

Orac

September 15, 2016
"Indeed. And if Harris chooses not to sue for libel, the charges must be true!"

My God, the quack does speak, down from up on high.
Nice twisted logic, but hey, it's normal practice around here to deflect away valid criticism, with inane and infantile drivel.
You taught your disciples well..
Would you care to respond, to the many accusations, made against you??
Take your time.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 15 Sep 2016 #permalink

Nice twisted logic, but hey, it’s normal practice around here to deflect away valid criticism, with inane and infantile drivel.

I'm glad you agree that your logic that if I don't sue Mike Adams for libel his accusations must be true is twisted.

@Peter Harris:

[W]hen you loose a simple debate.

Better than losing a simple debate, which is what you happen to be doing. :D

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 15 Sep 2016 #permalink

@ JF
1 too many MRR vaxx JF??

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 15 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Julian Frost (not verified)

Well, you must be getting desperate now.
Deleting my comments?
And I was so civil too.

Do you really have that much to hide?

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 15 Sep 2016 #permalink

Hey! Peter Harris! (waves). You keep complaining about the rest of the hordes, and ignore me and my medical education. I've submitted my bona fides to you on the other thread, and you keep ignoring me. Therefore, all I can do is conclude that you are a coward who can't stand up to a TRUE medically educated person, and use your ND as a hammer.

And, looking at the increase in typos, all I can do is conclude that Peter Harris is losing the argument.

Meaning he was, most likely, trolled hard over his grammar and now runs whatever anyone says through an online grammar checker; thinking he’s scoring points.

Umm... his complaints about grammar have been uniformly nonsensical. A simpler explanation by far is that he's an imbecile.

Peter: As an ND, what is your protocol for assessing a potential concussion or other closed head injury?

(Since that is part of the topic at hand.)

By JustaTech (not verified) on 15 Sep 2016 #permalink

Well, surprise surprise.
My comments reemerged overnight.
Now perhaps Orac can address the allegations, but after reading more about this guy, I doubt it.
And no doubt also, he'll just use his disciples to attack me, instead of defending those accusations.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 15 Sep 2016 #permalink

Well, surprise surprise.
My comments reemerged overnight.

Erm, you get filtered, it sits overnight until a moderator releases it. If you're dissatisfied with that delay, perhaps a moderator will next not bother releasing your comment.

And no doubt also, he’ll just use his disciples to attack me, instead of defending those accusations.

Erm, I have no idea which disciples to which you refer, but if you think that there's some sort of organized cabal here that follows Orac's expressed directives, you're as wrong as you can humanly be wrong. To judge from your previous comments, that's pretty wrong!

As for whateverinhell you blathered about, I've been offline for a few days. Some of us actually have real lives offline, otherwise, I'd likely be one of those "disciples" you claim obey Orac's every desire or something.
Still, I'm quite certain our loyal readers here will quickly dispatch whatever drivel that you submitted.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 16 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Peter Harris (not verified)

Many people would find it strange, that there are a lot of animal avatars here, particularly cats.
But no, there is an explanation for that.
It's a classic sign of pathological misanthropy.

And I see the grey sparrow, is just reinforcing my views of him, that he is one sick and twisted individual.
Who would create some argument around loose analogies, comparing cars and parachutes to the dangers and shocking side-effects of vaccines?
Well a demented mind of course.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 15 Sep 2016 #permalink

And I see the grey sparrow, is just reinforcing my views of him, that he is one sick and twisted individual.

Heh, I used a full stop rather than a comma in the killfile entry. This was a serendipitous error on the Lowell Hubbs front.

^ While the window is still open,

It’s a classic sign provocation of pathological misanthropy yobbo frustration.

FTFY.

Who would create some argument around loose analogies, comparing cars and parachutes to the dangers and shocking side-effects of vaccines?

What are the "dangers and shocking side effects" of vaccines, Peter? Oh, and you can't just list a number of things that may or may not be caused by vaccines. You have to supply good evidence proving that they are caused by vaccines.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 15 Sep 2016 #permalink

Narad @176

The "Peter Harris" in that link is in the Neath area of South Wales (I checked the STD code on the phone number) rather than Australia.

So unless the "Peter Harris" throwing his weight under a couple of posts here manages to be in 2 places at opposite sides of the globe at the same time...

Mmmmm, mebbe all that magical guff on that LinkedIn page allows you to do that....

The “Peter Harris” in that link is in the Neath area of South Wales (I checked the STD code on the phone number) rather than Australia.

Ah, well. Thanks for thinking to check that.

Now perhaps Orac can address the allegations, but after reading more about this guy, I doubt it.

Muppet doesn't know how to use the search box?

@Wzrd1

Wasting your time. The only things Harris apparently knows how to do are argue by assertion and lob attempted insults.

@Todd W, well, I was seeing if he'd go to the higher level of calling me a poo-poo caca pants. ;)

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 17 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Todd W. (not verified)

@Wzrd1

"Erm, you get filtered, it sits overnight until a moderator releases."

No, not at all, they appear straightaway, unless the post is accompanied by multiple links.

"Some of us actually have real lives offline

And what would that be?
Drugging, maiming and butchering your "patients" with allopathic medicine?
And I guess, you come over here, and brag about it.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 18 Sep 2016 #permalink

Actually, I'm a retired SF medic and am currently an information security professional.
I'd also be quite dead if it weren't for those drugs, as my aorta would've ruptured and I'd be doing that dead thing. That makes for a lousy weekend.
If my aorta further expands from dilation to aneurysm, that "butchering" would save my life, as surgery can repair the aorta now.
I'd consider that accomplishment brag worthy!

So, what do you have to offer to treat hypertension, caused by hyperthyroidism? Magic?

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 18 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Peter Harris (not verified)

"Actually, I’m a retired SF medic"

I see, so you're a jar-head, fighting illegal wars, to maintain British/US hegemony over the rest of the developed world. I'm sure you proud of yourself.

"So, what do you have to offer to treat hypertension, caused by hyperthyroidism? Magic?"

I guess you had never heard of Linus Pauling, or vitamin C.
And you've never heard of "You are what you eat."
And, a famous quote from Hippocrates; "Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food.”

That question from you, is so typical of the allopathic mentality.
Natural/holistic medicine and Naturopathy, is all about PREVENTION.
If you come to me some years ago, I would have got you on a specific dietary plan, that would have eliminated the risk of the diseases you have mentioned.

But of course, as I said before, there's no money in preventing disease, however, there are billions of dollars to be made by treating the symptoms.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 19 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Wzrd1 (not verified)

Ah, the old US/UK hegemony gambit The year 1812 being a fireworks display, to show to the world the ineffectiveness of militias.
Or something.
And vitamin C, being magical, being disgraced as a panacea by the same SOB who held the first study that was destroyed by peer review.

Lemme give you a hint, sod off now. Wank in the corner as usual.
While you're doing your usual, Google aortic aneurysm. Figure out why that's bad.
*Really* bad.

You know, the best part of you didn't run down your old man's leg, it stayed inside of the rubber!

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 19 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Peter Harris (not verified)

"You know, the best part of you didn’t run down your old man’s leg, it stayed inside of the rubber!"

I split my sides. . . No not really.
But it does remind me of those American movies i used to watch in the 80s.
You clearly are living up to that phrase, Jar-head.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 19 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Wzrd1 (not verified)

Erm, jarheads are Marines, I was Army.
Retired now, my personnel file stamped REF.
Retired, Extremely Flatulent.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 20 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Peter Harris (not verified)

If you're still in SF and so inclined, come by sometime.

By Dorit reiss (not verified) on 19 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Wzrd1 (not verified)

Dorit, SF in this context is Special Forces. That said, I'd love to pop by if I'm in your neighborhood. Good company's hard to come by these days. :)
Be warned, I love to play with kids, kids love to play with me. My wife and you can just shake your heads at my silliness. ;)
Although, a fair warning is due, in a funny face making contest, I *always* win. I have a naturally funnier face than kids are issued. ;)

Alas, we're in NW Louisiana, travel for any proper distance isn't in the cards for either of us, due to various injuries and disease states. :(
Still, plenty of kids around here to play with, give a good example to, while we miss our grandkids in Pennsylvania.

So, if we're in the neighborhood, we'll schedule a time to pop by, just keep the kiddies handy to play with. Pets as well. :)
We'll bring food. Both of us love cooking and are quite good at specific dietary requirements due to faith or preference. :)
You've not lived until you've had my lamb meatballs and marinara sauce, loaded with lamb or goat until the meat falls from the bones. :)

But, things military won't be discussed. Bad memories there. I'll happily talk about my guys, just not missions and things related to them. NDA and all other forms of nightmares.
Although, we'll have to trust you on the wine selection. ;)

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 19 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Dorit reiss (not verified)

That sounds wonderful, and anyone who can make my kids laugh is in my good books forever. Maybe it will happen.

But don't trust me with the wine selection, unless you're happy with grape juice. I don't do alcohol. My husband has good taste, though, so he can come up with something.

By Dorit Reiss (not verified) on 19 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Wzrd1 (not verified)

@ Julian Frost.

"What are the “dangers and shocking side effects” of vaccines, Peter? Oh, and you can’t just list a number of things that may or may not be caused by vaccines. You have to supply good evidence proving that they are caused by vaccines."

I'm beginning to wonder, as to whether my description of the regulars here, as bedwetters and dribblers, is actually an understatement.
Perhaps I'll just stick with the phrase; Nuffs-nuffs.

So now you're denying that severe and chronic, long-term debilitating side-effects exist from vaccinations??

Here's your favourite organisation, that lists the many side-effects of vaccinations.
For example, I found the word "seizure," over 30 times, in relation to vaccinations.
And that's just the tip of a titanic iceberg.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00046738.htm

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 18 Sep 2016 #permalink

“Erm, you get filtered, it sits overnight until a moderator releases.”

No, not at all, they appear straightaway, unless the post is accompanied by multiple links.

I see that your reading skills are as dull as ever.

Here’s your favourite organisation, that lists the many side-effects of vaccinations.
For example, I found the word “seizure,” over 30 times, in relation to vaccinations.

Yay, you're on a comprehension-failure roll.

@Narad

"I see that your reading skills are as dull as ever."

Speaking of dull, how was your weekend Narad??

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 18 Sep 2016 #permalink

@ Narad.

"Yay, you’re on a comprehension-failure roll."

Translated that means;
If I look at the CDC link, I might have to admit it is true, but seeing as though I am a Nuff-nuff, I could not read the abstract to begin with, and non-sequiturs are all i got.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 18 Sep 2016 #permalink

“Yay, you’re on a comprehension-failure roll.”

Translated that means;
If I look at the CDC link, I might have to admit it is true, but seeing as though I am a Nuff-nuff, I could not read the abstract to begin with, and non-sequiturs are all i got.

The irony, it burns:

"Despite concerns about vaccine safety, vaccination is safer than accepting the risks for the diseases these vaccines prevent."

Even dumber is your, ah, attempting to count the number of appearances of the word "seizure," which are a combination of shooting yourself in the foot and pulling out a 20-year-old discussion of DTP.

Again, your inability to read for comprehension is just painful in its stupidity. And the killfile is back on, so do enjoy your own company.

I very nearly feel bad for someone that shoots their own foot, save that they inevitably then complain about the limp.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 18 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Narad (not verified)

@ Narad.

"Again, your inability to read for comprehension is just painful in its stupidity. And the killfile is back on, so do enjoy your own company."

The week has barely started, and already Nuff-nuff Narad gets the hypocrisy/non sequitur/ad hominem award for the week.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 18 Sep 2016 #permalink

So now you’re denying that severe and chronic, long-term debilitating side-effects exist from vaccinations??

No, you strawmanning dim bulb. I'm saying that YOU need to PROVE AND LIST those "severe and chronic, long-term debilitating side-effects exist from vaccinations".
By the way, I went through that CDC document you posted. Here are some of the phrases that caught my eye.

"side effects were reported no more frequently among vaccinees than among persons receiving a placebo"

"available data concerning these vaccinees do not indicate an association between receipt of recombinant vaccine and GBS"

"No serious side effects of currently available IPV have been documented."

"Although children with a personal or family history of seizures are at increased risk for developing idiopathic epilepsy, febrile seizures following vaccinations do not in themselves increase the probability of subsequent epilepsy or other neurologic disorders. Most convulsions following measles vaccination are simple febrile seizures, and they affect children without known risk factors."

"The administration of live measles vaccine does not increase the risk for SSPE, regardless of whether the vaccinee has had measles infection or has previously received live measles vaccine."

To repeat myself.
What are the “dangers and shocking side effects” of vaccines, Peter? Oh, and you can’t just list a number of things that may or may not be caused by vaccines. You have to supply good evidence proving that they are actually caused by vaccines.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 18 Sep 2016 #permalink

@Julian Frost: don't bother wasting your time on Peter Harris. He's a coward who won't talk to educated women, because he's afraid we know more than he does. And you know he won't post anything that defends his whinging. He'll just call everyone names and stomp his feet. Personally, I wish he'd take his toys and go home. I'd say he's acting like a toddler,but that's an insult to toddlers.

I've always been the odd fellow who enjoys talking to people who know more than I do. How else can one learn? :)

As for Peter, yeah, no need to insult toddlers. Still, he was born ignorant and has been losing ground ever since.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 19 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by MI Dawn (not verified)

Good advice is wasted on you, isn't it.
But as long as the humvee is fuelled, and Bruce Springsteen is playing in the background, then everyone can be "losing ground," for all-time.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 19 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Wzrd1 (not verified)

I dunno about the hummer, I drive a 1996 Taurus. Which is now fix or repair daily.
But, whatever floats your boat full of lead,

Personally, I happen to *like* that car. Although, I have a gun and have entirely failed to locate a grease fitting...
Permanently lubricated, my ass, lubricated until failure, then the part's lifetime is over.*

*You'd have to share context of age, when one lubricated a vehicle's grease points, not sought them and not found much.
When wearing tree looking clothing, I used to hunt down such points on my military vehicle, lubricating many, many, many points.
Just like I did with my older cars.
But, hey, it's all cool. Walk, rather than ride, carry 47 pounds of body armor, primary arm reloads to 200 rounds or so, secondary arm for another half hundred rounds or so, maybe be "blessed" with 12 gauge rounds as well for breaching purposes, then add in my 50 pounds of IV fluids, treatment kits, etc.
Yeah, leaving impressions into granite surfaces, so done that.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 19 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Peter Harris (not verified)

@ JF.

"I’m saying that YOU need to PROVE AND LIST ..."

So there you have it folks, the CDC is not a reliable source regarding the dangers of vaccines.
And when somebody presents me with something from the CDC, as an argument to refute something I've stated, I'll just say that; "YOU need to PROVE AND LIST."

Nice attempted cherry picking Mr Frost.
You obviously missed the hundreds of examples of severe and debilitating side-effects as a result of vaccines.

"To repeat myself.
What are the “dangers and shocking side effects” of vaccines, Peter? "

I guess the Nuffs-nuffs around here, including Mr Frost, do not believe that death, which was mentioned over 30 times in that CDC report, is to be considered a "danger," or a "shocking side-effect."

I think some of the guys here are just hilarious.
They dig a hole for themselves, and then fill it in on themselves.

You can't make this shit up, because nobody would believe you.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 19 Sep 2016 #permalink

Sigh. SF =/= jarheads.

Hey, Wizard -- you would get a kick out the looneytunes who has been holding forth on Disqus on how vitamin C cures everything including tetanus. She thinks I have a death wish because I prefer the Tdap.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 19 Sep 2016 #permalink

@shay, I've been studiously ignoring the idiocy of USMC vs US Army BS.
Morons are morons.
See the bit about staying inside of the rubber.

That's a rarity for me, in the extreme, as I do try my best to keep things family safe.
But, some earn their way dearly into disrespect.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 19 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by shay simmons (not verified)

Natural/holistic medicine and Naturopathy, is all about PREVENTION.

[...]

But of course, as I said before, there’s no money in preventing disease,

Sure. nobody never made no money by "natural/holistic medicine".

If you come to me some years ago, I would have got you on a specific dietary plan, that would have eliminated the risk of the diseases you have mentioned.

Be specific.

"Be specific."

I'm hardly going to give you any advice.
You are beyond redemption.

Speaking of being specific, have you found some answers to my 2 simple questions yet?

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 19 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by gaist (not verified)

How amusing that you have "nothing specific", at all.
Wank off elsewhere, your microscopic member isn't of interest here.
But, further proving that the best part of this individual stayed inside of the condom.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 19 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Peter Harris (not verified)

This thread reveals the secret to Peter Harris' claims that he successfully treated all his patients without any side effects. He simply refuses to acknowledge the existence of anything that contradicts him.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 19 Sep 2016 #permalink

" He simply refuses to acknowledge the existence of anything that contradicts him."

Because nobody has put up a reasonable argument/rebuttal against what I have stated, in regards to the safety and efficacy of holistic/natural medicine.
But you and the other flunkies may try, but reason and logic will always destroy your nonsense, purely for the fact that you are completely ignorant of cellular biology and evolutionary biology.
So keep banging your head against the wall, as I say good night.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 19 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Gray Falcon (not verified)

So, I just saw an interesting note that Sears has been hit with a second complaint - involving someone he mentioned during his SB277 testimony.

Unfortunately, because it isn't a child that Sears treated, I don't think it will mean much in the grand scheme of things.

Speaking of being specific, have you found some answers to my 2 simple questions yet?

I'm not one one having trouble finding the answers - you're the one who can't find them.

But this isn't the tread for this - Anything else on the subject, bring it up in the original thread.

Because nobody has put up a reasonable argument/rebuttal against what I have stated, in regards to the safety and efficacy of holistic/natural medicine.

You haven't stated anything, you just keep vomiting up words and insults.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 19 Sep 2016 #permalink

If he were here in the US, Peter could explain to Logan Stiner's mother how safe his treatments are.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/dietary-supplements-health-risks-consumer-r…

And he doesn't cite studies like this 1 year survey of supplement adverse event reports.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18570167

Of 275 dietary supplements calls, 41% involved symptomatic exposures; and two-thirds were rated as probably or possibly related to supplement use. Eight adverse events required hospital admission. Sympathomimetic toxicity was most common, with caffeine products accounting for 47%, and yohimbe products accounting for 18% of supplement-related symptomatic cases.

Nor does he mention the 3 or 4 million people who no longer die of smallpox worldwide every year.

Even the reference he did quote shows that public health officials like the CDC put a continual effort in finding possible adverse effects of vaccines, quantifying the risk (which is much less than the risk of the diseases themselves) and finding ways to make vaccines even safer.

In Peter's field, by contrast, the norm is to assume that someone wrote down 200 or 2000 years ago that this works so we'll just take their word for it.

By squirrelelite (not verified) on 19 Sep 2016 #permalink

I thought you were a little different, but no, you're just a bumbling muckraker like the rest of them.
For a start, I do not prescribe the "supplements" in that story.
I also looked at the links that were embedded in that story, and they too are misleading, by using the word "supplement," to describe weight loss products, and other products to make you look good. I do not consider caffeine to be a supplement.
This just shows how utterly ignorant you are, in regards to what Naturopaths do in a professional setting, and what supplements they prescribe, which are no more than high-quality vitamins/minerals.
And with the modern commercial, Broadacre intensive farm practices, along with further refining and processing of food in factories, I find minerals are more important than vitamins, when it comes to my clients diseases, and that mineral depletion is the root of many modern diseases.

One of the so-called doctors, who was featured in the story, a Dr Byers, is just like any other mainstream medical researcher. He distorts and overplays, any significance vitamins play in causing disease.
And when you read through the BS, you find this statement;
"Byers says it's still unclear why supplements could have this adverse effect, but he and other researchers hope to learn more about the association."
"Other studies Byers reviewed indicated that many other supplements had no apparent impact on cancer risk -- neither increasing nor decreasing it."

You then give me a link to; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18570167

Maybe you fail to read it.

"Suspected drug-herb interactions occurred in 6 cases, including yohimbe co-ingested with buproprion (1) and methamphetamine (3), and additive anticoagulant/antiplatelet effects of NSAIDs taken with fish oils (1) and ginkgo (1). Laboratory analysis identified a pharmacologically active substance in 4 cases; supplement toxicity was ruled unlikely when analytical testing was negative in 5 cases."

So for example, the anticoagulant was a result of the NSAIDS, or the fish oil?
Would you care to answer that?

And then the conclusion was;
"CONCLUSION:
Most supplement-related adverse events were minor. Clinically significant toxic effects were most frequently reported with caffeine and yohimbe-containing products. Active surveillance of poison control center reports of dietary supplement adverse events enables rapid detection of potentially harmful products, which may facilitate regulatory oversight."

No traditional vitamins or minerals were mentioned.

And then you completely out yourself as a fool with this statement:

"In Peter’s field, by contrast, the norm is to assume that someone wrote down 200 or 2000 years ago that this works so we’ll just take their word for it."

Just like the other feckless and clueless types here, you have absolutely no understanding of Cellular Biology and Epigenetics, and how our evolutionary past, has shaped us to what we are today, developed through our reliance on the fresh, nutrient dense foods we ate, for hundreds of thousands of years, when we were hunters and gatherers.
And somehow, boneheads like yourself and others, come along and say that "science in medicine," will replace what nature provided for us over those countless years of evolution.

http://www.healthnewsreview.org/2015/04/the-study-that-never-existed-ca…

http://www.nyrnaturalnews.com/uncategorized/2015/04/another-misleading-…

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 19 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by squirrelelite (not verified)

OK. now i'm amused. Peter Harris is living in the past, that's why none of his patients ever die.

After all, if he can post a 20 year old CDC document thinking it has current information,(I guess he's afraid of the current MMWR just like he's afraid of me). then he's living in the past.
Let me help you out, Peter. There is this thing known as a "data" that is at the top of a MMWR. You want the most current recommendations and information. Try this one - it's much more recent than 1996:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr6002a1.htm

Ah, MI Dawn, you're also on the MMWR mailing list? :D

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 20 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by MI Dawn (not verified)

Pardon my double error.
I'm late for work

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 19 Sep 2016 #permalink

@PH:

I guess the Nuffs-nuffs around here, including Mr Frost, do not believe that death, which was mentioned over 30 times in that CDC report, is to be considered a “danger,” or a “shocking side-effect.”

A number of VAERS Reports mention deaths, but on closer investigation it turns out that the vaccine could not possibly have had anything to do with it.
To repeat myself again:
What are the “dangers and shocking side effects” of vaccines, Peter? Oh, and you can’t just list a number of things that may or may not be caused by vaccines. You have to supply good evidence proving that they are actually caused by vaccines.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 19 Sep 2016 #permalink

You really are becoming quite desperate aren't you.
Banging your head, with illogical nonsense.
I prove you wrong, and you still breathlessly carry on like a toddler, who demands its dummy.
I do not consider VAERS to be inaccurate source of information, regarding the adverse affects of vaccines.
Your argument is now in the toilet, all we need now is for someone to come along and press the button.
But going by your history, you will probably do it yourself.
Just make sure you press the full button, the one with the semicircle icon.

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/janak/080330

http://www.activistpost.com/2016/07/cdcs-vaers-data-confirm-multiple-va…

However, if you still insist that VAERS reported no deaths, then perhaps you should press the button now.

"HPV vaccine-related problems that were reported on the VAERS site included

autoimmune hemolytic anemia, idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura, lymphadenopathy, pulmonary embolus, nausea, pancreatitis, vomiting, asthenia (weakness), chills, death, chronic fatigue, malaise, autoimmune diseases, hypersensitivity reactions (including anaphylactic/anaphylactoid reactions, bronchospasm, and urticaria), arthralgia, myalgia, acute disseminated encephalomyelitis, dizziness, Guillain-Barré syndrome, headache, motor neuron disease, paralysis, seizures, syncope (sometimes resulting in falling with injury), transverse myelitis, and deep venous thrombosis."

And then. . .

"No Guarantee of Vaccine Efficacy and Lots of Risks

Just two years after Gardisil’s introduction into the US, the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) reported the following HPV vaccine-related problems, including 32 deaths (that were more or less equally distributed following either the first, second or third inoculation)."

http://www.globalresearch.ca/big-pharmas-nefarious-control-of-health-ca…

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 19 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Julian Frost (not verified)

A number of VAERS Reports mention deaths, but on closer investigation it turns out that the vaccine could not possibly have had anything to do with it.

It's rather plain that he can't be bothered to read his own source. Let's pick one of those "over 30" matches (five of the 33 are in the references):

"Rarely, immediate anaphylactic reactions (i.e., swelling of the mouth, breathing difficulty, hypotension, or shock) have been reported after receipt of preparations containing diphtheria, tetanus, and/or pertussis antigens. However, no deaths caused by anaphylaxis following DTP vaccination have been reported to CDC since the inception of vaccine-adverse-events reporting in 1978, a period during which more than 80 million doses of publicly purchased DTP vaccine were administered."

Or Table 2, which lists sudden infant death syndrome under "evidence favored rejection of a causal relationship" for DTP.

His counting routine is imbecilic.

[Only slightly off-topic]

How would one distinguish between an anti-vaxxer with poor reading skills and a failed computer program attempting to pass the Turing test? Based on the 'conversation' so far I don't think there is enough evidence to determine if we are dealing with a slightly off-center loon with minimal reasoning skills or a graduate school project in computer science/psychology.

Or, as a CS professor of mine in the 1990's was fond of saying, "It isn't ALWAYS an either/or solution." Which means that "Peter Harris" may be an attempt to pass the Turing test, designed by a slightly off-center loon with minimal reasoning skills.

Feel free to return to your non-productive discussion. Hopefully it will produce enough data to solve this mystery.

PH: "Calling me a troll?
Well of course, when you’ve got nothing intelligent left to say, and when you loose a simple debate.
Too easy huh."

Yes, too easy, when you keep scoring own goals like that. Like that study you posted showing Big Pharma being honest in their test results, like that study you posted showing vaccine safety in Cuba, I could go on.

You're a terrible troll. But that's fine, as I can see any lurking naturopaths gently weeping in shame at being represented by you. They are certainly quiet when you're about.

Any naturopaths out there that want to back Pete up? Maybe you could pop up and let us know what qualifications your naturopath course required?

How would one distinguish between an anti-vaxxer with poor reading skills and a failed computer program attempting to pass the Turing test?

Well, use of the word "attempting" is begging the question, but to the point, I've found that if Dadadodo can produce prose that comes off as more insightful than the source of its input, the input is reliably a dumb human. I've only tested this with recycling its own output, though; SciGen input could be another experiment, but I just don't have the interest these days.

But don’t trust me with the wine selection, unless you’re happy with grape juice.

There's no reason why teetotalers can't indulge in beverage pairing. Somewhat gamey meatballs in tomato sauce would call for some body and acidity* in a wine, right?

Leaving aside the Ariel option** and lassi-type entries – just because they seem too heavy – I'm willing to believe that it might be possible to create some sort of sparkling beverage that would work. Rhubarb ± pomegranate spring to mind; green mango, maybe.

This leaves body. Egg white, sugar, glycerin ... or a cucumber/squash/etc. base. The latter would muck up the glassware, though.

* Oh, wait, wine is alkaline.
** Full disclosure: I have received an autographed copy of one of Graham Kerr's cookbooks after sending a CD of his lone LP, which he did not have a copy of (and which was not easily available) at the time. I have at least three vinyl copies at the moment.

@ gaist
"Speaking of being specific, have you found some answers to my 2 simple questions yet?

I’m not one one having trouble finding the answers – you’re the one who can’t find them."

"But this isn’t the tread for this – Anything else on the subject, bring it up in the original thread."

Oh, this is a novel way of avoiding the questions.
Firstly, claiming I must answer my own question, when it's you who's defending the safety and efficacy of vaccines.

Oh, of course, that old chestnut.
Telling me to go over to the other thread, and discuss it there. But unfortunately that thread has disappeared.
Of course, there is no reason why you can't answer my 2 simple questions here on this thread.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 19 Sep 2016 #permalink

But unfortunately that thread has disappeared.

No longer sure if he's that stupid, or just delusional.

Oh, so you found it. ha ha.
So now you need to find me some answers.
It can’t be that hard, seeing as though you have demonstrated your Internet skills.

https://youtu.be/SGD69Q9rz3M

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 19 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by gaist (not verified)

Obviously, Peter Harris has reading comprehension issues. He says : I do not consider VAERS to be inaccurate source of information, regarding the adverse affects of vaccines.

Peter: as our beloved lilady used to say, what's that part you have to read and agree to BEFORE going into the VAERS database?

To make it easier for you, I'm attaching it to this post and bolding the relevant part.

VAERS Data

Guide to Interpreting VAERS Case Report Information
When evaluating data from VAERS, it is important to note that for any reported event, no cause-and-effect relationship has been established. Reports of all possible associations between vaccines and adverse events (possible side effects) are filed in VAERS. Therefore, VAERS collects data on any adverse event following vaccination, be it coincidental or truly caused by a vaccine. The report of an adverse event to VAERS is not documentation that a vaccine caused the event.

VAERS data contains coincidental events and those truly caused by vaccines.
More than 10 million vaccines per year are given to children less than 1 year old, usually between 2 and 6 months of age. At this age, infants are at greatest risk for certain medical adverse events, including high fevers, seizures, and sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS). Some infants will experience these medical events shortly after a vaccination by coincidence.
These coincidences make it difficult to know whether a particular adverse event resulted from a medical condition or from a vaccination. Therefore, vaccine providers are encouraged to report all adverse events following vaccination, whether or not they believe the vaccination was the cause.

Please read the following statement on the limits of VAERS data. You MUST click on the box below to access the VAERS database.
When reviewing data from VAERS, please keep in mind the following limitations:

VAERS is a passive reporting system, meaning that reports about adverse events are not automatically collected, but require a report to be filed to VAERS. VAERS reports can be submitted voluntarily by anyone, including healthcare providers, patients, or family members. Reports vary in quality and completeness. They often lack details and sometimes can have information that contains errors.

"Underreporting" is one of the main limitations of passive surveillance systems, including VAERS. The term, underreporting refers to the fact that VAERS receives reports for only a small fraction of actual adverse events. The degree of underreporting varies widely. As an example, a great many of the millions of vaccinations administered each year by injection cause soreness, but relatively few of these episodes lead to a VAERS report. Physicians and patients understand that minor side effects of vaccinations often include this kind of discomfort, as well as low fevers. On the other hand, more serious and unexpected medical events are probably more likely to be reported than minor ones, especially when they occur soon after vaccination, even if they may be coincidental and related to other causes.

A report to VAERS generally does not prove that the identified vaccine(s) caused the adverse event described. It only confirms that the reported event occurred sometime after vaccine was given. No proof that the event was caused by the vaccine is required in order for VAERS to accept the report. VAERS accepts all reports without judging whether the event was caused by the vaccine.

DISCLAIMER: Please note that VAERS staff follow-up on all serious and other selected adverse event reports to obtain additional medical, laboratory, and/or autopsy records to help understand the concern raised. However, in general coding terms in VAERS do not change based on the information received during the follow-up process. VAERS data should be used with caution as numbers and conditions do not reflect data collected during follow-up. Note that the inclusion of events in VAERS data does not imply causality.

For more information, please call the VAERS Information Line toll-free at (800) 822-7967 or e-mail to info@vaers.org.

I have read and understand the preceding statement.

So often I get accused of not reading, when in fact it's the Nuff-nuffs here, who cannot comprehend what I'm saying, even when I use simplistic terms.
I guess it's a symptom of, a lack of engaging one's prefrontal cortex, and relying on one's limbic system a little too much, when interacting with the world.

I'll make it clear for you this time, using simple monosyllabic terms.

VAERS is not accurate. It's run by the medical system, to cover up the medical systems mistakes. This is not an independent reporting system, and it's open to broad range contamination, in its collection, and formulation of data.

It's even in the text that you sent me to read!
How F%&#ING dumb can you get??!!

"VAERS is a passive reporting system, meaning that reports about adverse events are not automatically collected, but require a report to be filed to VAERS. VAERS reports can be submitted voluntarily by anyone."

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 20 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by MI Dawn (not verified)

And it continues . . .

"VAERS reports can be submitted voluntarily by anyone, including healthcare providers, patients, or family members. Reports vary in quality and completeness. They often lack details and sometimes can have information that contains errors."

“Underreporting” is one of the main limitations of passive surveillance systems, including VAERS. The term, underreporting refers to the fact that VAERS receives reports for only a small fraction of actual adverse events."

And no need for bolding, it jumps out at you anyway.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 20 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by MI Dawn (not verified)

Now, I have real work to do, unlike PH who forgets what the pot calls the kettle.

VAERS does have its uses (though the noise generated by anti-vaxers has certainly made it less useful over the last decade).

It was initial reports in VAERS which lead investigators to take another look at the original Rotavirus vaccine. There was enough data to suss out a single additional adverse event per 100,000 doses of the vaccine, which caused the vaccine to be removed from the market.

If VAERS was good enough to find that rare of a reaction, don't you think the other anti-vax claims - like autism, diabetes and auto-immune diseases would have been easy to find?

Just another example of anti-vaxers not understanding what they are talking about, at all.

@Peter Harris: since the first part of my comment was your own words, I don't think I suffer from reading incomprehension.

Unless you had a typo in your wording:
I do not consider VAERS to be inaccurate source of information, regarding the adverse affects of vaccines.

I read exactly what you typed.

Yes, the auto-correction got it wrong, it was meant to say. "an accurate..."
But despite that, it's quite clear what I think of VAERS, and it's dodgy nature of reporting.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 20 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by MI Dawn (not verified)

And then you can explain if you don't consider VAERS to be an ACCURATE source of information, why you insist on quoting it for "32 deaths" from HPV vaccines. By the way...if you bothered to LOOK at the data, you'd see some of those deaths were suicides, auto accidents and other things that are pretty hard to tie to a vaccine.

Again, doesn't really need explaining!

Deaths, as opposed to lets say, localised skin rashes, cannot be misreported, even in a dodgy system such as VAERS.
Deaths, at least need a certificate.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 20 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by MI Dawn (not verified)

Nobody needs to show a death certificate to report a death to VAERS. They can report a story they read on the Internet.

More important, the question isn't if someone died, but whether the vaccine caused it. An unverified VAERS report simply doesn't show a vaccine caused a death.

Here are two examples I like to use for this.

VAERS #379570: “…patient accidentally fell in open well (granite quarry filled with water), drowned and expired. This event occurred 49 days of receiving first dose of GARDASIL.”

VAERS ID: 495494-1 -- An MMR death - "Vaccine recipient started to bleed on both hands and walked over a filled bathtub."

By Dorit Reiss (not verified) on 20 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Peter Harris (not verified)

Just more gullible nonsense.
In the past, you will defend the VAERS
But now, you're calling into question its accuracy, just to spite me.

Ha ha ha.

As I said, dribblers and bedwetters.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 20 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Dorit Reiss (not verified)

If by defend you mean point out that properly used, it's useful, it certainly is.

I doubt anyone here ever claimed all VAERS reports - or deaths reports to VAERS - reflect vaccine causation, because that's simply not true and people here know better.

I certainly didn't claim that.

Using unverified VAERS reports as evidence of vaccine-caused harms or deaths is simply incorrect and improper use. That doesn't contradict the fact that properly used, VAERS can be useful.

By Dorit Reiss (not verified) on 20 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Peter Harris (not verified)

And the Flip-flop award goes to. . .

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 20 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Dorit Reiss (not verified)

What the VAERS website says: "I have read and understand the preceding statement."

What Peter Harris read: "I have read the preceding statement and am at liberty to misinterpret and/or distort it, to the maximum extent possible."

I’ll make it clear for you this time, using simple monosyllabic terms.
VAERS is not accurate. It’s run by the medical system, to cover up the medical systems mistakes. This is not an independent reporting system, and it’s open to broad range contamination, in its collection, and formulation of data.

Monosyllabic terms. Yes indeed.

@LW

Bon vous comprenez.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 20 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by LW (not verified)

I do not consider VAERS to be inaccurate source of information, regarding the adverse affects of vaccines.

VAERS is not accurate. It’s run by the medical system, to cover up the medical systems mistakes. This is not an independent reporting system, and it’s open to broad range contamination, in its collection, and formulation of data.

One of these things is not like the other. Oh Ooops.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 20 Sep 2016 #permalink

Like all dribblers, they need spoon feeding.

As i stated earlier.

"Yes, the auto-correction got it wrong, it was meant to say. “an accurate…”
But despite that, it’s quite clear what I think of VAERS, and it’s dodgy nature of reporting."

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 20 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Science Mom (not verified)

"Yes, the auto-correction got it wrong, it was meant to say. “an accurate…”
But despite that, it’s quite clear what I think of VAERS, and it’s dodgy nature of reporting."

So even though PH considers VAERS dodgy, he still uses it to support his stance that the HPV vaccine caused 32 deaths...

Logic. I can haz it?

It seems more dribblers need to be spoon fed.

As I said earlier; in reply;

"Again, doesn’t really need explaining!

Deaths, as opposed to lets say, localised skin rashes, cannot be misreported, even in a dodgy system such as VAERS.
Deaths, at least need a certificate."

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 20 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by MI Dawn (not verified)

Yet Peter Harris went on to use it to make a "point" or somesuch.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 20 Sep 2016 #permalink

@PH
Still a death after vaccination, reported to VAERS doesn't have to mean both are linked.

Oh, I see.
So you get run over by the 9:15 bus, on your way to the vaccination clinic.

By Peter Harris (not verified) on 20 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Renate (not verified)

It is clear that Peter Harris is NOT a Turing test failure. Anyone able to comprehend the concept of a Turing test couldn't screw up the logic subroutines as badly as Peter's are operating.

I remember once arguing with adults the same way Peter Harris does. Then I started kindergarten and had to grow up.

By Chris Hickie (not verified) on 20 Sep 2016 #permalink

Peter, you are like the Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Utterly defeated and oblivious to that fact. At least you have some use as a chew toy.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 20 Sep 2016 #permalink

It's gratifying to see yet another addition to the antivax literature. There's a new book out by Brett Wilcox (foreword by Kent Heckenlively) called "Jabbed: How The Vaccine Industry, Medical Establishment And Government Stick It To You And Your Family".

https://www.amazon.com/Jabbed-Vaccine-Industry-Establishment-Government…

Mr. Wilcox, who previously authored such classics as "21 Solutions To 21 Relationship Bloopers", is described in the book's Amazon blurb as "a Licensed Professional Counselor and agnotologist (one who studies culturally induced ignorance or doubt)."

Dang, I should have warned you all to double-shield your irony meters before I posted that. :(

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 20 Sep 2016 #permalink

Dammit! That's the third irony meter that's burned out this week!
You really outta warn people earlier than that. ;)

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 20 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Dangerous Bacon (not verified)

DB:
I looked up 'agnatology', and found the term was coined by Robert N. Proctor in his book of Cancer Wars: How Politics Shapes What we Know and Don't Know About Cancer. While 'culturally induced' may be in the broad definition, in practice 'agnatology' is primarily concerned with the deliberate production of ignorance" e.g. in Proctor's book "the tobacco industry's advertising campaign to manufacture doubt about the health effects of tobacco use. Under the banner of science, the industry produced research about everything except tobacco hazards to exploit public uncertainty" (Wikipedia).

Thus, no doubt Wilcox imagines himself uncovering how "The Vaccine Industry, Medical Establishment And Government"conspire to deliberately produce ignorance about the evils of immunization. So yet another form of legitimate inquiry had it's terms co-opted, hollowed-out, and refilled with hooey in the AV funhouse mirror alt-reality...

The Amazon blurb is filled with Insolence-begging hoots:

Germs are bad and vaccines are good. Period.
Questioning the dominant paradigm results in shaming, scapegoating, and in some cases tainted reputations, lost careers or worse. Such an environment is not the domain of science; rather it’s the breeding ground of tyranny and fascism.
Corporate and personal profits from the burgeoning vaccine pie depend upon the larger-than-life, myth-based vaccine paradigm. Sociopaths inject this paradigm into medical journals, medical curricula, congressional hearings, regulatory policies, White House statements, executive orders, and finally into the minds of vaccine believers.
Million dollar sociopathic propaganda campaigns ensure that vaccine believers unleash their wrath against the vaccine informed, effectively keeping The Herd immune to the truth and ready and willing to roll up their sleeves to any and all vaccines...
In spite of and in part because of the propaganda, the day is soon coming when consumer distrust of vaccine sociopaths will gut the vaccine industry. Don’t expect the sociopaths to roll over, play dead, and sacrifice their multi-billion dollar generating machine, however. Human bodies are, after all, their ATMs. The waves of coercive and mandatory vaccination laws that are rolling out demonstrate that if sociopaths are denied voluntary access to our bodies, they will take them by force. A vaccine informed public is the only thing that will have the power to stop them and to hold them accountable for their crimes.

Thankfully, Wilcox is so over-the-top with the "sociopath" CT that reasonable people will instinctively shy away from the ranting man on the soapbox. Because, unfortunately, good public health practice on vaccines is socially vulnerable to such arguments for several reasons. First, of course, the science isn't that for lay folk to grasp, and humans are hard-wired to over-credit the post hoc 'logic' in the anecdotes of perfect tots 'breaking' immediately after their shots. But it doesn't help that vaccines come from an industry well-known for documented bad behavior in other areas, and policies/procedures that are anything but transparent. It also doesn't help that 'skeptics' are so afraid the 'sheeple' will be swayed by anti-vax messaging, they repeatedly respond to anti-vax messages by asserting 'This should NOT be distributed' - Vaxxed being the prime example. While this is not 'censorship', it's still censorious enough to appear consistent with hinky repression. Especially since AVs can't mount any argument beyond smoke and mirrors or outright lies, it's far better to say "Bring it on, Del! Show me you're best stuff, and watch me knock it into Waveland Ave."

Anyway, NPD-warped AVs imagining public health advocates as "sociopaths" is pretty funny. If it breaks your irony meter, though, you must have a very old model, as this kind of think is pretty much paradigmatic within the media culture of postmodernity.

How can anyone claim that vaccines, which are known to often contain aluminum, mercury, or albumin (a protein in eggs that is a common allergen) are safe for EVERYONE? Lately it has been shown than some vaccines also contain glyphosate, the main ingredient in Monsanto's Roundup pesticide (as well as in some pesticides made by other manufacturers, since Roundup's patent has expired). While studies have been done on glyphosate's safety when SWALLOWED, no studies have been done on its safety when INJECTED. Parents have legitimate reasons to be concerned about vaccinations. Please do not accept the prevailing view so blindly. Follow the money.

Why don't we follow the money?
Vaccines aren't even properly reimbursed by insurance companies, resulting in pediatricians administering the vaccines at a loss. (I was conversing with a pediatrician just the other day on that very subject. He loses money on vaccines.)
Meanwhile, the companies making vaccines get around 2% of their income from vaccines. Some big money there, huh?
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/healthy_kids/The-truth-Why-pediatric…

And seriously, aluminum? One of the most plentiful metals on the earth and you claim that it's a health risk? I guess humans should never have moved to this planet!
Oh wait, humanity evolved here, with all of that nasty aluminum all over the place.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 20 Sep 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Margaret (not verified)

@ Sadmar

It also doesn’t help that ‘skeptics’ are so afraid the ‘sheeple’ will be swayed by anti-vax messaging,

This fear is not exactly unfounded. The spreading of lies is not without consequences.

Grab a man (or woman) in the street, tell him the gov and/or Big Pharma are covering up some messed-up product, you will get his ear.
Because we all have in our memory examples of shitty things one or the other has done. Human beings cheat, distort the truth and lie all the time, so why not about vaccines?

Wakefield article and interviews did sway a number of people in the UK and other countries. It took more than a decade to inverse the narrative in the press.
On another topic, South Africa officials were swayed by articles and advocates from the HIV denier circles.
Lies kill.

In my country a few years back, a French-German science-friendly TV channel broadcasted a documentary about the evils of aluminium in general and its presence in vaccines (never mind the quantities involved and the dubious science). People (like my parents) were swayed by this documentary.
I don't have the resources to make a counter-movie and sit my parents through it. Forcing people to watch some movie is no better than censoring them from watching another movie, anyway.
In addition, I will be losing my time with my dad, he is a true believer of the evils of Big Pharma, Monsanto and the rest. He even fell for homeopathy at some point. Whatever his idiot son of a biologist could say had no bearing on his beliefs (say a lot about my communication skills; but again, since he won't listen...).

Tell you that: come to my country, and convince some of my compatriots to accept to eat GMO food. No cheating by waiting 2 or 3 generations.
Bring some riot police armor, you may end up facing a lynch mob.

If you manage to do it, then I will believe that propaganda and culturally deep-rooted opinions could be fought with fact-based public debates.

tl;dr: while I see your point about appearing censorious is not helping, I'm afraid that debuncking lies is more complicated than just confronting the other's propaganda.
If people have made their opinion, they won't listen to your facts.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 20 Sep 2016 #permalink

#5

How can anyone claim that vaccines, which are known to often contain aluminum, mercury,

Oh god. It's Fendlesworth again.

By Rebecca Eckles (not verified) on 20 Sep 2016 #permalink

@Margaret:

Have you never heard of exemptions for the egg-allergic from albumin-containing vaccines?

Although MMR is safe, and non-egg-containing versions of the flu vaccines are available.

Lately it has been shown than some vaccines also contain glyphosate, the main ingredient in Monsanto’s Roundup pesticide (as well as in some pesticides made by other manufacturers, since Roundup’s patent has expired).

When said "evidence" appears in something that's not a YouTube video, then we'll talk.

And Travis S. go eff yourself already.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 20 Sep 2016 #permalink

Also, straw man. Nobody claims all vaccines are safe for "everyone." Medical exemptions exist for a reason.

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 20 Sep 2016 #permalink

I would like to subscribe to Narad's cocktail recipe book. I really should not be drinking.

A question for the scientists here (sent from my pbone with .o preview, please forgive any errors).

So the anti Alluminium (Al) mob get upset when Al ijected into the muscle doesn't get excreted in the urine. Chunks get phagocyted instead, so as the Al is now in a cell, could that Al not end up being excreted in the feaces instead? Anybody ever test that? Or even, as the Al used is a salt, leave the body via the sweatglands? Could you even check that?

@Sadmar and Dangerous Bacon re the Brett Wilcox book:

1. At least he's not a doctor
2. He seems parasitic in his latching onto anti-vaccinationism with is only link in his book plug being that right after he and his 15 y/o son ran across the country to protest GMOs, William Thompson then came forth (blah blah blah). That's the weakest tie-in I've seen in a while.
3. He lives in Sitka, Alaska. Rumor has it grizzlies prefer unvaccinateds because they are more "natural" and "crunchy" so if he still likes to go running, there is hope for resolution of Wilcox.

(Hey, what do you want from me, now that I've been exposed as a sociopath by the all-seeing-eye of Brett Wilcox? )

By Chris Hickie (not verified) on 20 Sep 2016 #permalink

@Jay

Aluminum that does not get absorbed is excreted int he feces. Al that is absorbed eventually makes its way to the blood, which carries it to other tissues, predominantly the bones and lungs. Eventually, that aluminum will get excreted in the urine and bile. More info here.

@Todd

That's a great post thanks, cleared things up quite a bit. My question's pointless as the quantity is so low, that it would just spread about with the rest of Al.

Though you did mention bile, so there is a faecal route, that might annoy those anti vaxers quoting Flarend's "In vivo absorption of aluminium-containing vaccine adjuvants using 26Al".

I would like to subscribe to Narad’s cocktail recipe book.

Try searching for "Yamuna Devi" + beverages or "sparkler," etc.

My 16 year old was due for 3 shots at his last doctor visit, all boosters but only one required before school started (WA added a second varicella to the school mandate). He has hustorically been very difficult for all medical procedures, so we were not sure how to go. His pediatrician suggested we could bring all three in, start with the required one and see how it went for the other two. I said "won't that spoil the other two if we can't use them?" She said "we'd need to use them within an hour, but don't worry about wasting them. The cost is not what matters to us, taking care of Philip is. If we have to throw them away, we will."

So, yeah. All about the money.

(We actually got three nurses in and did all three simultaneously and all he said was "ow." Victory!)

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 21 Sep 2016 #permalink

@Peter Harris (217) 9/19/2016

At the moment I'd rather enjoy my dinner than do a detailed reply, so let me offer some thoughts. Until you give us more information about what treatment methods you do and don't use, we can only presume that those include the full range of naturopathic methods including homeopathy which seems to be on every term of the curriculum at Bastyr University, for instance.

I'll have to find the comment but I remember a comment about naturopathy being about preventing disease. It's quite ironic then that you spend so much effort arguing against the most effective method of preventing diseases yet discovered which saves millions of lives ever year.

Supplements are commonly recommended by everyone from the sales person at the local health food store to naturopaths like you. Since you consistenly point out even side effects that were only incidental to the testing of vaccines, a balanced assessment of both methods must include the understanding that supplements also have side effects that have been documented up to and including death.

Since you have some process for deciding which methods are safe and effective and which ones not, perhaps you would enlighten me.

Can you name three treatment methods that have been generally abandoned by naturopathic schools and doctors in the last 10 or 20 years because they have been found to have unacceptable side effects or because better treatment methods have been found or developed?

By squirrelelite (not verified) on 21 Sep 2016 #permalink

Emma Crew: "(We actually got three nurses in and did all three simultaneously and all he said was “ow.” Victory!)"

Woot! Amazing how kids just seem to grow up a bit more each year. Actually I always get surprised at what changes, even now, and my youngest is 22 years old. (now I need to finish putting together the care package for youngest who has moved to another state... with just a few sniffles because I miss her)

Peter Harris:

I am actually in the market for some medical advice and am willing to listen to your recommendations.

My wife has multiple myeloma, stage 3. It is the IgA variety, with the kappa light chains being the culprit. She has an abnormal hyperdiploid karyotype, with multiple trisomies PLUS the P53 deletion. She is refractory twice (VdT & Rd).

What treatment would you suggest and why do you think it is appropriate for her specific situation?How will you address the P53 deletion?

Thanks in advance!

Opus, You are awesome and I am wishing your wife and you the very best.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 21 Sep 2016 #permalink

What treatment would you suggest and why do you think it is appropriate for her specific situation?

I expect it will involve coffee enemas and juicing, because altie cancer treatments always involve coffee enemas and juicing.
Why? Who the fzzk knows?

How will you address the P53 deletion?

Dark roast, maybe?

@Opus,

Wishing your wife all the best in treatment and luck.

I don't know about the P53 deletion,but there's a P47 still in its case in one of the remaining B36 bombers on a farm in northeast Ohio. Maybe that would fill the gap.

Just kidding. I really hope she gets well.

By squirrelelite (not verified) on 21 Sep 2016 #permalink

While the pro-VaXXers here are derping along, the death toll of murdered Holistic doctors has reached 50!

http://truththeory.com/2016/06/26/50-holistic-doctors-have-mysteriously…

One of the latest "mysterious" deaths involved Rod Floyd, a licensed chiropractor and associate professor at Palmer College of Chiropractic!

The intrepid reporters at NumbNuts News have revealed that the killings appear connected to the use of nagalase (or nagalese)* in vaccines, which it seems is what makes them toxic, along with aborted babies, goat horns, barrels of Roundup and other Toxins.

I'm not sure what can be done, other than organizing civilian militias to guard every Holistic practitioner in the country 24/7. Anyway, that would be a start.

*"nagalese" is also defined as the language in a marital contract where one party is reminded of the obligations to the other party that are not being met.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 22 Sep 2016 #permalink

And here I thought that "nagalese" was the language of the serpent people.

And here I thought that “nagalese” was the language of the serpent people.

More recently it would be the common language of Nagaland.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 22 Sep 2016 #permalink