Trolling the antivaccine trolls

There are many ways to combat antivaccine pseudoscience. Personally, I've chosen my favored methods, namely blogging, giving talks, and generally combatting pseudoscience on social media wherever I find it. That's not all I do (for example, I do have a couple of papers in the peer-reviewed medical literature designed to combat the infiltration of pseudoscience into academia), but it is where I put most of my effort. For one thing, I'm good at it. For another thing, it's fun. Also, it's something I can work into my busy schedule more easily. It even brings me a bit of notoriety now and then, such as when I had a strange interaction with William Shatner or when various news organizations, for some reason, want to interview and quote me for various stories.

None of this is to say that what I do is the only way to combat pseudoscience. Heck, it's probably not even the most effective, but it does play to my strengths. Indeed, I very much admire people who can go a more conventional route, forming organizations, lobbying, and doing outreach. I also can't help but have some respect for people who use more—shall we say?—in your face tactics, people like those who go out and protest showings of antivaccine documentaries like VAXXED. The movie was released well over a year ago, and, unfortunately, the film's producers and director, Andrew Wakefield, Polly Tommey, and Del Bigtree, are still promoting it for all it's worth. They've even bought an old buss, painted it up with the film's logo, and went on tour to promote the movie, rally the antivaccine faithful, and try to influence legislators, both at the federal and state level—even in my state of Michigan. Throughout it all, they've tried to make it a memorial to the "vaccine-injured," with parents writing the names of the "victims" on the bus. It's all rather ghoulish, actually.

Indeed, the VAXXED crew is so blatant that just last week they were in Minneapolis, the epicenter of a massive measles outbreak among the Somali immigrant community in Hennepin County that Andrew Wakefield himself, with the help of his acolytes, directly caused through their fear mongering about vaccines and autism. Even worse, even after having drawn national attention to their role in endangering the children of Minnesota through promoting antivaccine misinformation, antivaxers aren't ashamed. They're proud. They're doubling down and still promoting their pseudoscience among the vulnerable population they harmed in the first place. The VAXXED bus visit is just part of that. Basically, Wakefield is making another movie, and his crew is filming interviews wherever the VAXXED bus goes.

That's why I'm glad there's someone like Craig Egan, who started a GoFundMe page in order to raise money so that he could travel across the country, report on where the VAXXED bus is going and what the VAXXED crew is doing, protest, and raise money for Voices For Vaccines:

The Vaxxed bus is on tour, spreading fear and disinformation about vaccines. I will be following their route, refuting them with facts and evidence and sometimes lulz at every stop. I will also be using this adventure as a fundraiser for a great organization, Voices for Vaccines. One third of all donations will be budgeted to go directly to V4V . Each goal will get me to another stop on the tour and a larger V4V donation.

He's even made the news as the "Internet's most prolific troll of anti-vaxxers":

Online, his approach is textbook trolling, which is defined by the Urban Dictionary as posting a “deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.”

That’s exactly what he does, needling staunch, conspiratorial anti-vaccine types to an uncomfortable point of hilarity or harassment, depending on your point of view.

He has a certain skill set, and he’s not shy about using it, employing take-down-style arguments based in science and medicine in a bizarre digital realm that largely seeks to discredit both.

Online, his many foes know him well. He’s routinely referred to as a bully, or worse.

Egan targets those who believe immunizations are responsible for a host of medical conditions, ailments and disabilities, and that there’s a widespread cover-up orchestrated by the government and large pharmaceutical companies to keep the truth hidden.

Specifically, Egan specializes in making online life miserable for the handful of doctors and authors who deal in this junk science.

Yes, there's Insolence I can approve of. He also follows an approach I try to follow in my blogging, namely ruthless mockery of the hard core antivaxers but a much softer approach with those on the fence. Antivaxers hate him, of course, probably more than they hate me. They portray him (and Karen Ernst of V4V) as "stalkers and "mockers," which is not entirely inaccurate but doesn't really truly catch the flavor of what he's doing. In any case, Egan is very effective, because he's basically driven the VAXXED bus underground:

Basically, because of Egan, the locations of where the VAXXED bus will be have been kept as secret as possible, and some appearances have been moved to private homes, where Egan can't go. In particular, I like how Egan turned the tables on the VAXXED crew in Minneapolis by calling the police on them for not having a permit to film a movie in a public park. The same sort of thing happened in Bettendorf, IA and St. Louis: No bus, or the event was moved to a private house:

Here he noted that Suzanne Humphries stopped showing up, as did Polly Tommey. I really have to wonder how fragile the message of VAXXED is if one person (or, sometimes, a handful of people) respectfully protesting, drives the whole crew and bus underground. I can't help but think of similar behavior that I've noticed elsewhere...

Trolling is not all that Egan does, though. As he's done his tour, he's interviewed various physicians and vaccine researchers about the importance of vaccines, thus providing a positive message as well.

So how do antivaxers view him? The Age of Autism crew, specifically Nancy Hokkanen, was not happy:

Organizers of the Minneapolis VaxXed stop withheld its Mississippi River stop location publicly because of troublemakers. One was Craig Egan, a miscreant with suspect funding who boasts online about his national stalking of the bus and its grieving visitors. Nonetheless he and a handful of protesters appeared brandishing a few signs (such as the inapplicable “Mutant and Proud”), but left after some sprinkles of rain. Someone even attempted to shut down the VaxXed event by calling park police, though event organizers had a permit.

"I wonder why Craig Egan and the rest of his trolls are trying to intimidate families who have vaccine injured children?” asked Wayne Rohde of the Vaccine Safety Council of Minnesota. “He has no heart or conscience for understanding others who are living and struggling with disabilities."

Another empathy-challenged intruder was Karen Ernst of the faux consumer group Voices for Vaccines, who showed up to lurk and smirk. Though the VaxXed bus is a travelling monument recognizing health damage and deaths caused by vaccines, photos taken that day indicate she found the gathering amusing. Her disturbingly inappropriate affect is profoundly disrespectful at an event commemorating the sick and dead, their caregivers, and their mourners.

I don't presume to speak for Craig, but I do have empathy for parents who have to deal with a special needs child. I really do. Back when I was in college, I worked part time at a group home with children with severe mental retardation, two of which had classic severe autism. I can partially (but never completely) imagine what it would be like to take care of such children 24/7/365. However, having a special needs child does not give you a pass if you spread antivaccine misinformation of the sort that resulted in the recent measles outbreak in Minnesota, nor does it give you a pass if you have, in essence, made a career of spreading such misinformation, as Polly Tommey and several of the leaders of the antivaccine movement have done.

That being said, it is a fine line to tread. Antivaxers use their belief that their children were horribly injured by vaccines as a shield against any criticism of their antivaccine beliefs. Basically, if you criticize their antivaccine beliefs, you are risking falling into the trap of being portrayed as "attacking mothers." The flip side of their use of their pain as their shield is that, at the same time, as they take self-righteous umbrage at any criticism pro-vaccine advocates might level at their antivaccine pseudoscience, they feel they have every right to use all manner of personal attacks, doxxing, trying to get their critics fired (or at least harassing them at work), and even using violent imagery aimed at their perceived enemies.

Fortunately, Craig treads that line well.

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It’s been a while since I paid attention to the movie, but the publicity among the antivaccine movement for Andrew Wakefield’s and Del Bigtree’s movie VAXXED: From Cover-Up to Catastrophe continues apace. Sadly, I missed my opportunity to see Bigtree himself doing a Q&A for the movie when it…
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From Craig's video, it sounds to me like the chiropractors are getting jumpy.

I'd assume that most of their "patients" (if that's the best word for people who pay them for health care) vaccinate their children, and might be quite concerned by publicity suggesting that they may come into contact with unvaccinated kids at the office.

By Brian Deer (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

One was Craig Egan, a miscreant with suspect funding

This bit I always find really strange. Anti-vaxxers (and indeed other anti-science idiots) seem to believe that the only way people could not fully agree with them is for those people to be paid off by some nefarious organisation. Craig Egan has made it abundantly clear where he is getting money for this exercise from, but Nancy Hokkanen thinks otherwise. It makes me worry how much projection is going on.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

And on the bright side, down-under has denied entry to three of the anti-vax morons. Now if only we could evict them from here as well.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-41104629

More topically, we need far more people like Mr Egan. If we had more people publicly ridiculing and calling anti-vaxers on greater benefit then pointing out logically how wrong they are. their BS, it may be of a

By Anonymous Pseudonym (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

I HATE THIS TRACKPAD. Apologies for the incoherent post.

FTFM: If we had more people publicly ridiculing and calling anti-vaxers on how wrong their BS is, it may be of a greater benefit then pointing it out logically.

By Anonymous Pseudonym (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

And on the bright side, down-under has denied entry to three of the anti-vax morons.

Sadly, we have plenty of home-grown and important ones. We have a Meryl Dorey in excess of our needs.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

It's funny how AVers can't take it when someone lawfully protests them. Egan has done nothing to intimidate people wishing to visit the pro-disease Vaxxed group, nor has Egan broken any laws regarding protest or assembly. He's called a bully simply for opposing their pseudoscientific arguments.

Australian pro-vaccine groups have their AVers essentially on the ropes and almost out for the count through constant calling-out and open opposition by politicians, groups and physicians. I hope Craig is the start of a more vocal, open, direct opposition of anti-vaccine groups in the US, because it's sorely needed to head off vaccine-preventable disease outbreaks.

By Chris Hickie (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

Yeah, the whole "you can dish it out, but you can't take it" aspect of the antivax reaction to Craig is rather amusing. Antivaxers think nothing of doxing, harassing people at work, harassing CDC employees as they show up for work, and calling us pro-vaccine pro-science advocates every ugly name in the book. Yet, when they're at the receiving end of a little peaceful protest, with someone like Craig and occasionally a handful of his fellows showing up at a few of their events, the VAXXED crew runs away and hide with their tails between their legs and demonize the protester. I mean, seriously. Antivaxers made fun of Paul Offit for months because he became so alarmed and upset at a VAXXED cameraman getting in his face while he was eating breakfast before a vaccine conference at NYU that he made the mistake of cussing him out on camera (something he acknowledges to have been not a good idea), but they run like cowardly little wimps from a jovial middle-aged dude showing up with pro-vaccine signs at their events. It is to laugh.

It's a tricky thing, how to interact with someone who is convinced their child was harmed by vaccines? I have a family member who is convinced her son's eczema was caused by vaccines. Last I heard she stopped vaccinating. The crazy thing is, when she was pregnant she was insisting that family get a Tdap booster. Talk about a 180.

How many of these supposed vaccine injuries have been compensated by the vaccine court? How many have even filed? I'd be curious to know.

How many of these supposed vaccine injuries have been compensated by the vaccine court? How many have even filed? I’d be curious to know.

Angela, you will find some numbers here

Roughly one third of cases are compensated. That number is inflated by Table injuries. These are known vaccine side effects and compensation occurs even if the vaccine did not cause the injury.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

Table injuries are somewhat fluid & conditions there were compensated for decades ago, wouldn't be today (as the science has advanced & we understand that certain conditions aren't related to vaccines).

It is my understanding that many of the original awards given to claimants due to the DTP vaccine would not be awarded today.

Just to add two points of context to what Chris and Lawrence said: the Table of injuries was updated recently, mostly by adding conditioning, none were removed. Though they did narrow the definition of encephalopathy.

B. A third compensated is, best as I can tell, equivalent or higher rate than non-asbestos product liability cases in the courts. Especially design defect cases, as most of these are, are hard.

By Dorit Reiss (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

Two points on Craig: when he made an error in judgment that upset a mother who lost a child and was in the Vaxxed bus telling it, he apologized publicly (he blew an air horn outside, which he admits in hindsight was a bad idea).

B. Craig is one of the few people I know that was actually successful, online, in converting extreme anti vaccine people, all mothers that I know of. Some of them were impressed by his persistence and the facts he shared.

And yes, he got a lot back. Apparently Dr. Tenpenny called the FBI on him. And more.

By Dorit Reiss (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

Yep. You'll never see an antivaxer apologize for being too tasteless or too hurtful. The reason is, of course, how "they" view "us." They view us as the enemy, to be crushed at all costs. To them, almost any tactic is justifiable to achieve that end. In contrast, we do not view most antivax parents as the enemy. The leaders of the antivax movement, maybe in a few cases (e.g., Mike Adams), but the vast majority of vaccine-hesitant and even antivax parents are not our enemies.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/02/12/who-they-view-us/
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/02/13/how-they-view-us-briefly-r…
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/05/05/how-they-view-us-2014-edit…
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/07/25/how-they-view-us-mike-adam…

You'd be amazed by how many parents have come to me with information about Wakefield.

By Brian Deer (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

Case in point: For more than a week now, there's been a death threat against Dr, Pan on Del Bigtree's Facebook page. An angry anti-vax lunatic has threatened to shoot him at some public baseball game event. Bigtree has refused to condemn that threat even after repeated requests.

By Woo Fighter (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

All one needs to do, to see how much of a precious snowflake anti-vaxers are, is take a look at the responses that our friend "the Gnat" gives when his views are challenged.

One was Craig Egan, a miscreant with suspect funding

About that suspect funding. I would have loved to join him on Craig's ProVax World Tour but obligations prevented me, so I sent many of my little dollar bill friends in my stead. As of this morning, 294 people thought the same as I did -- as did the GoFundMe team, which kicked in (IIRC) $1,000.00

Craig is really good at convincing the vaccine-hesitant that vaccines are good for kids. It's not too late to send him the price of a fancy coffee.

Sadly, Lansing is too far away for me to make it.

Antivaxers who react to criticism by claiming that it represents bullying of parents with injured children, have never been good at looking in the mirror.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4763062/Parents-harassed-anti-v…

Antivax leaders have been remarkably quiet about such behavior by their adherents, which has no parallel among immunization supporters.

I'd hesitate to applaud Australian authorities for denying visas to prominent antivaxers. Much better to debunk and mock stupid speech (even when it has potential health consequences) than to ban it altogether.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

Angela: "How many of these supposed vaccine injuries have been compensated by the vaccine court? How many have even filed? I’d be curious to know"

The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program has a page with the statistics, there is a link here:
https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/data/index.html

There is information on the US Vaccine Court, including a link to the opinions/orders here:
http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/vaccine-programoffice-special-masters

You can see how the US government keeps it all hidden in plain sight. end sarcasm

Oh, come on! I just had two comments disappear into the ether! I did not even get a note about it being under moderation.

It included the the lawyer fee ruling and final opinion on Brian Hooker's Vaccine Court case. The one on the lawyer fees as very interesting comments about his lawyer, Clifford Shoemaker. A lawyer who we have encountered before.

Another test

Ms. Ginger Taylor actually called for people to start filing complaints about commercial fraud every time a medical provider says something they disagree with, like "vaccines don't cause autism."

Her timing was reasonably good, though the idea is a pretty ugly one, since I was just teaching malicious prosecution and abuse of process in torts and she provided a good hypothetical problem for the students to grapple with.

By Dorit Reiss (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

From the angle in the photo of the Vaxxed bus, it looks like it says "Vaxxed.con" on the side.

Now that's VaxTruth we can live with.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

Mr. Egan has really been doing an amazing job. Way back years ago he trolled a (now defunct) facebook page entitled "Proud Parents of Unvaccinated Children." It eventually imploded when a dispute broke out within its ranks about whether or not the page should allow a "medical astrologer" to post advice on the page. It really was entertaining to watch Mr. Egan stir the pot and watch it boil over. He exposed how out of touch with reality many of the hard-core antivaxxers were.

On a side note, I was hoping to get a bit of advise about an anti-vax ethical dilemma I'm struggling with:

I occasionally snoop around secret anti-vax facebook pages. Not really to troll them like Mr. Egan, but rather to just get an idea of what their arguments are. A while ago I stumbled on a post about anti-vaxxers lying about their (and their children's) vaccination status. One post particularly bugged me. It was by a mother who said she had to lie or she would lose her job. It turns out that this woman is a nurse and works at a medical clinic.

Should I inform her employer? One the one hand, I really don't like doxing people to their employer. On the other hand, she could be putting her patients at risk....

Some of you are in the medical field and I would be interested in your perspective on this.

A classic example of how the anti vaxxers can dish it but can't take it: In one of her videos, Polly Toomey describes the T shirt that Craig is wearing as a "threat". The T shirt has the message "I heart Australia"
A few days later, she recorded a video with the Lindemans, a couple she describes as her close friends. Mr. Lindeman says that paediatricians are evil child murderers, and that anyone who attempted to vaccinate him or a member of his family would "end up underground" . He pulls out the handgun he is carrying and waves it about in front of the camera to show that he is serious.
Polly is not at all upset by this. In fact, she encourages it. its OK if your T shirt says "Vaxxed"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbIwsuzsX5U

By Greenwhat (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

Craig is great on video!

Here's what bothers me and I hope that he can find ways around this:

anti-vaxxers seek sympathy from the general public by comparing their situation ( having autistic family members) to that of victims of war, bigotry and oppression:

- today, @ AoA, Dachel's post, Dara Berger says her son resembles
" survivors of the fire bombing of Munich"
- Kim Rossi has recently compared the bus to the Viet Nam Memorial Wall;
she's also shown images of bloody hands whilst referring to doctors ( April 2017) and invoked images of martyrs of racism and bigotry ( Gandhi, King)
- Hokkanen calls the bus a "travelling monument"
- many have compared ASDs to the Holocaust ( Orac covers this)

In reality - if any of them ever visits it-

no one has died- despite their claims-
no one has been blown up by a land mine or lost a family member to an attack by terrorists
( My cousin's father died when his vehicle hit a land mine and my friend lost a family member to a bombing in a public place and had to identify what was left of the body)

Having a child with autism is not the same thing-

they're alive and looking at you. They have feelings. They're not buried somewhere.

You don't have an "anniversary' to dread each year like my friend does and you can't go to a monument to trace the name of the victim as my cousin does.

We should continuously point this out-
They're playing martyrs and victims inappropriately.
Wars and terrorism have PERPETRATORS who aim at killing people to implement their goals.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

Well, I'd qualify that a bit. Some of the parents have lost children, for example, some of the stories are SIDS stories. The vaccine connection is either not there or very problematic, but some of these parents are grieving parents.

The equation of ASD to death, though, which is a constant theme, is horrible. So is language like Kennedy's use, referring to autism as "their brain is gone."

By Dorit Reiss (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

In reply to by Denice Walter (not verified)

Sadly, Lansing is too far away for me to make it.

I really have to visit the Boil Festival one of these days.

I really have to visit the Boil Festival one of these days.

Please, tell us that the festival involves food and not carbuncles. Please.

CORRECTION:

the Munich quote is from Dachel herself not Berger.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

The AV movement has posted Craig's home address on social media today.

Doxing and harassment of vaccine advocates - it's not a bug of the AV movement, it's a feature.

Because of course they did. It's how they operate. As you say, it's a feature, not a bug.

I have looked into a few hundred of the vaxxed bus stories and, so far, have found only one that has been compensated by VICP. A few have filed but were denied. If you watch the videos, even just a few, it is pretty clear that nearly all of these stories are not really things caused by vaccines. A lot of SIDS babies, a lot of autism kids, a lot of allergies.

I have watched a few hundred of these Vaxxed videos and they are often about things we know vaccines do not cause, such as SIDS, autism, allergies. I've seen one that was a case that actually got VICP compensation. A few filed, but claims were denied.

Is Dachel perhaps confusing Munich with Dresden? Both were firebombed, but Dresden was wiped out.

(Not that I expect antivaxxers to get their facts straight).

By shay simmons (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

Indeed. Pretty much all major German cities were bombed, but Munich got off much easier than Dresden.

Dangerous Bacon at #21, I understand your position that censorship is a slippery slope, however there are a few Australia-specific issues at play here. The first is that Australia only has implied free speech, meaning that while in practice it's ok to say what you want, if push comes to shove defending irresponsible/dangerous speech is problematic. Secondly, our visa requirements are pretty strict - if Heckenlively was intending to travel on a tourist visa but on a speaking tour he would be breaching his agreement with the government. That's a reason there to reject the visa. If he was travelling on a non-tourist visa (so many visa classes I wouldn't know which one he may have tried to get) it would be pretty clear what he was intending to do. This gets to the nub of the issue.

The Australian Immigration minister (Peter Dutton - the brussel sprout head who is also in charge of our offshore detention *cough concentration cough* camps - I'm not a fan of him except for his pro-vaccination actions) had recently banned Tommey and Humphries after their Vaxxed caravan of carnage. So whoever alerted him to the fact Heckenlively was intending to come and deliver his 'wisdom' would have been able to use the recent banning as precedent, allowing Dutton to get on the front foot.

To circle back to the issue of free speech, while Heckenlively is not allowed to come to the country, there's nothing censorious about our minister's actions - Heckenlively's facebook page is still active on Australian facebook (more's the pity), and if any Australian really wants to read his words or watch him on video there's nothing stopping them doing so. His speech isn't stopped, just his ability to make a buck out of it. And with the way the value of the Australian dollar tends to increase when there's tensions in the US, that's probably the bigger issue for poor Mr H.

Apologies for the long comment, essay writer playing at commenting :-D

By RetroPastiche (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

Just want to add to my colleague Retro Pastiche's comments. Banning Tommey, Heckenlively et al from Australia is not a "free speech" issue. Every country in the world retains the right to control the entry of non-citizens. That why we have visas and passports. Just a few months ago, a member of one of our State parliaments was banned from entering the US. He was travelling with a group on official government business: had applied for and received the correct visa and was still turned back at the border. The reason? he had a Syrian stamp in his passport. He had visited Syria ( also as part of an official government delegation) in the years prior to the outbreak of war.
Governments do this kind of thing all the time, and sometimes their reasons are arbitrary, but they are completely within their rights. All levels of government and all major political parties in Australia are strongly pro-vax. As the government pays for our health care its very much in their financial interest to see that vaccination rates remain high.
We just don't need to import anti-vaxxers. We have plenty of our own. We also have many dedicated volunteers who do what we can to counter their message, and hold them to account. Thats where the "free speech " comes in.

By Greenwhat (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

The decision to ban Tommey, Heckenlively et al from Australia is NOT a Free Speech issue. Every country in the world retains the right to restrict the entry of non-citizens for any reason they choose. Just a few months back a politician form one of our State Governments was denied entry to the US . He was travelling with an official government delegation, and had applied for and received the correct visa. He was turned back at the border because he had an Arabic name and a stamp from Syria in his passport. He had visited Syria ( also as part of an official delegation) years ago, before the hostilities occurred. These kinds of arbitrary decisions about who is admitted to what country occur every day and are perfectly valid in a legal sense.
All the major political parties in Australia have a strong pro vaccination stance. Given that the government pays for our health care, they have a strong financial interest in supporting vaccines.
We have no need to import foreign anti- vaxxers. We have plenty of our own. We also have a band of dedicated volunteers who work tirelessly to counter their lies and hold them to account. That's where the Free Speech comes in.

By Greenwhat (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

Angela: It’s a tricky thing, how to interact with someone who is convinced their child was harmed by vaccines?

Just schedule enough social interaction to keep the lines open in case her son needs help, but don't indulge her and subtly edge her out of your life.
(I kind of have a similar problem with an uncle who's been lying about most of his life. But most anti-vaxxers are jerks, anyway, so small loss?)

I wish I'd known about Egan, since I saw the Vaxxed bus on one of it's tours while out running errands.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

Would that The Wife's favorite cousin could go around with Craig. It wouldn't be easy, since she would need a couple of caregivers; at her age and in her condition, it's doubtful she could cope with the evil—doxing, financial assault—that the anti-vaxxers treat their opponents to.

The cousin, you see, was disabled by measles encephalitis in the 1950's, and hasn't been able to use most of the right part of her body since.

By Se Habla Espol (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

Would that The Wife's favorite cousin could go around with Craig. It wouldn't be easy, since she would need a couple of caregivers; at her age and in her condition, it's doubtful she could cope with the evil—doxing, financial assault—that the anti-vaxxers treat their opponents to.

The cousin, you see, was disabled by measles encephalitis in the 1950's, and hasn't been able to use most of the right part of her body since.

-----The first try at posting this comment didn't seem to take, so forgive me if this shows up twice.

By Se Habla Espol (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

It is all going to be OK. Kent Heckenlively has been telling his woes to a Donald Trump doll over at Pattimmy's place. Apparently Kent wants Donald to organize to drop DVD's of VaXXed on the Australian people in some bombing run.

Heckenlively is obviously trying to make a point, but what point is beyond me.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

It is all going to be OK. Kent Heckenlively over at Pattimmy's place has been telling his woes to a Donald Trump doll. Kent wants Donald to organize dropping DVDs of VaXXed over the populace of Australia in some sort of bombing run.

I kid you not.

The first try at posting this comment didn’t seem to take, so forgive me if this shows up twice.

That happened to me too.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

It is all going to be OK. Kent Heckenlively over at Pattimmy's place has been telling his woes to a Donald Trump doll. Kent wants Donald to organize dropping DVDs of VaXXed over the populace of Australia in some sort of bombing run.

I kid you not.

The first try at posting this comment didn’t seem to take, so forgive me if this shows up twice.

That happened to me too.

Third time lucky perhaps?

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

This is a test because:

The first try at posting this comment didn’t seem to take, so forgive me if this shows up twice.

That happened to me too.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 31 Aug 2017 #permalink

"...Australia only has implied free speech, meaning that while in practice it’s ok to say what you want, if push comes to shove defending irresponsible/dangerous speech is problematic."

Many of us support an explicit free speech model, while recognizing that there are greater hazards in allowing government to decide on and ban "dangerous" speech than in permitting public appearances by those with reprehensible messages.

Too bad Australia apparently doesn't have anything on a par with the ACLU.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 01 Sep 2017 #permalink

Se Habla Espol: One of mine got lost too.

Angela: "It’s a tricky thing, how to interact with someone who is convinced their child was harmed by vaccines?"

I suggest gently edging her out of your life, but making sure that the lines are open in case the son needs someone to protect him from his mother.

Funny thing, I saw the Vaxxed bus while running errands. They didn't seem to have much of an audience.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 01 Sep 2017 #permalink

Dangerous Bacon: Australia does not have a Bill of Rights, and our Constitution does not explicitly protect free Speech, although the High Court has found in past decisions that we have an implied right to Free Speech. However, this is not a Free Speech issue. Our government is not preventing Heckenlively's views from being heard here: they are freely available to anyone with an internet connection a a streak of masochism.
We are preventing Heckenlivley from coming to Australia - which is an entirely different matter. All governments all over the world retain the right to control the entry of non-citizens. No one has a "right" to travel wherever they please.

By Greenwhat (not verified) on 01 Sep 2017 #permalink

I'm closer to Dangerous Bacon's views than yours on this, I'm afraid. Yes, Australia, like all countries, has the right to decide who can and cannot visit based on whatever criteria its government decides upon. You keep harping on that, but no one is claiming otherwise or arguing that Australia doesn't have the right to control its borders. However (and I realize this is an unpopular viewpoint here), when the criteria used are so clearly designed to prevent someone from speaking in a country, I always get a bit uncomfortable.

You're not going to like this, but I said exactly the same thing about David Irving 11-12 years ago. I've been nothing if not consistent about this. I don't expect all nations to hold a First Amendment-like view on this; so I'm probably less militant about it than DB (although 10-12 years ago I was), but I do tend to be more with him on this than with you. I'm no longer one to condemn decisions like this one as loudly as I used to, but I do sit back and watch all the gloating about it with a degree of discomfort, knowing how easily, depending on who's in power at any given time, that could be turned to other unpopular views that might not be as harmful as antivax views.

The best way to change the minds of AVers is to find the real cause of autism. I have been working on that for 8 years. Here are my thoughts:
What causes autism?
Autism researchers have developed many clues but haven’t been able to find the answer. They all agree on one thing: autism has both a hereditary component and an environmental component.
One clue, a hereditary trait, stands out: autistic people have a much faster visual response time than the average. [1] This rapid visual processing means that they also have a higher flicker fusion frequency number. This is the frequency at which a flashing light appears to be a constant light, and it varies widely from individual to individual.
If a fast visual response time is the hereditary component, it would explain the puzzling fact that 80-85 % of autism cases are male. Humans have been farming for 10,000 years, prior to that we were hunter gatherers; males hunted and females gathered. Evolution produced a difference in their visual systems: females have slightly wider-set eyes for better depth perception and males have a rapid visual response time to quickly detect motion and react while hunting; more males than females have the hereditary trait associated with autism.
If fast visual response time is the hereditary component, then the environmental component has to be a visual input. It’s not due to an exposure to mercury, aluminum, or any other element or compound, or a lack of any vitamin, nutrient or element, prenatal or postnatal.
It isn’t hard to find a source that produces the problematic visual component: fluorescent light. Research using EEG brain wave monitoring confirms that fluorescent light alters brain waves. [2]. Brain waves of individuals with the shortest visual response time have the greatest change. Fluorescent light is actually a strobe light, turning on and off based on electrical frequency, producing an unnatural visual environment. It’s well known that strobe light can cause migraines, disorientation, and seizures. Brain waves represent the electrical activity in the brain. The five senses are the keyboard to the brain. The electrical input from these senses determines how our brains develop, who we are, and who we will become. If one of the main inputs is providing corrupted electrical signals, it’s understandable why infants with a high flicker fusion frequency number fail to develop a normal social skills foundation, resulting in autism.
Below are other clues that reconcile with and support the hereditary and environmental combination discussed above that causes autism.
In the Pacific Northwest, more rain equals more autism [3]. The inordinate number of rainy and overcast days requires additional hours of artificial lighting including fluorescent light, resulting in additional cases of autism.
There is a higher rate for children conceived from December to March [4]. They are born just prior to the shortest, darkest days of the year, again requiring additional hours of artificial light.
The rate of developing autism is high among premature birth babies [5]. One in four infants weighing between 1 and 3.3 pounds showed signs of autism as toddlers, i.e., 18-24 months. The male/female ratio was 6:1, reinforcing the rapid visual-response-time component. The lower the birth weight the longer the time in NICU and the higher the risk. These children spend extended time in neonatal care, continually exposed to fluorescent light.
Children using daycare have a high rate [6]. Research using Google Earth’s street level function found that over 90% of day cares are in strip malls or stand-alone commercial buildings, certainly all with fluorescent lighting.
The four countries with the highest rates, and 7 of the top 10, use 50-cycle electricity [7]. Lowering the frequency from 60 cycles per second to 50 means those with a somewhat lower flicker fusion frequency number are affected.
Ten clusters with high rates of autism have been identified in southern California. These clusters are neighborhoods with expensive, upscale housing where both parents are highly educated [8]. Due to their education level, each may want their own career or both may have to work to support their lifestyle, resulting in daycare for the child and exposure to fluorescent lighting.
The first cases were diagnosed in the early 1940’s. Fluorescent lighting became commercially available in 1938.
Why has the rate of autism increased over the past three to four decades so dramatically? The major factor was the advent of the compact fluorescent light. From 2000 to 2007 CFL sales went from 21 million to 397 million, an annual increase of 52% [9]. By 2009 70% of homes in the United States had CFLs and averaged 4.4 CFLs each [8]. By 1996 80% of homes in Japan, the country with the highest autism rate, used CFLs [8]. Other factors are the increase in single-parent homes and the declining economy forcing both parents to work, each increasing the use of daycare.
The Amish have little or no autism. The Amish use no electricity in their homes, so no fluorescent lights. Dr. Frank Noonan, practicing for 30 years and treating thousands of Amish children in the Ohio area, has seen no autism [10] and Dr. Kevin Strauss practicing in the Pennsylvania Amish area has seen no idiopathic autism, classic autism [11].
I know many will think this hypothesis is unlikely, but if the answer were obvious it would have been found long ago. I believe further scientific investigation is warranted. It’s my hope that this information becomes widely spread, as it will do no harm, unlike the vaccination controversy. Even parents who think it’s unlikely would avoid fluorescent lighting just to be safe. If that resulted in a noticeable drop in the rate, this case would be very strong. Please share my hypothesis with others in the fields of autism support and research, with parents of autistic children, and with parents of newborn children.
I am willing to discuss all of my research—all of which supports my hypothesis and much of which is not included in this general paper—as well as ideas for further research projects.
Oren Evans
ogevans2525@gmail.com

By Oren Evans (not verified) on 01 Sep 2017 #permalink

Mr. Evans: "The best way to change the minds of AVers is to find the real cause of autism. I have been working on that for 8 years."

Um, really? Did you know that over half the genetic sequences that cause autism have been discovered? Some of them have names you may recognize like Rett Syndrome, and Fragile-X Syndrome.

Families should join the effort to find the rest of the genetic sequences by signing up here: https://sparkforautism.org/

This video has more information:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOQ9s0GcG5s&index=41&list=PLjvfRtcMhn4P…

Mr. Evans: "Why has the rate of autism increased over the past three to four decades so dramatically?"

Here is a little story:

In 1991 I was told by a child neurologist that my non-verbal three year old was definitely not autistic because he smiled and laughed. Granted, sometimes it was often not at appropriate times.

So I had a child who went through the special ed. system with various and differing diagnoses that were often related to speech and language disorders. After ten plus years of speech/language therapy he could speak, though it is sometimes difficult to understand. One has to be patient to understand him.

The very first time someone mentioned "autism" was during his senior year. It was the school psychologist, who also mentioned that even if he was put into their autism program he would have lost services. Because she recognized they created a label without realizing the vastness of the autism spectrum.

It is not one neurological issue, it is dozens. The saying is "If you met one autistic person, you have met just one."

My son finally got a full diagnosis of autism a bit over two years ago. While he seems to have Aspergers, he would never had gotten that diagnosis because he was non-verbal after he turned three years old. Apparently, speech disorders was an automatic disqualification for Aspergers.

Mr. Evans, can you think of what actually changed between 1991 and 2015?

Sad to see you glorifying the mentally ill

By Sid Offit (not verified) on 01 Sep 2017 #permalink

If you want to check the references for the idea that fluorescent lights cause Autism -

https://www.facebook.com/oren.evans.3/posts/1460741517353896

[1] Children with Autism Detect Targetsat very Rapid Presentation Rates with similar Results as Adults Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders January 2016 DOI:10.1007/s10803-016-2705-9
[2] Kuller R, Thorbjorn L [1998]. The impact of flicker from fluorescent lighting on well-being, performance and physiological arousal. Ergonomics 41(4):433-47.
[3] Waldman M, Nicholson S, Adilov N, Williams J [2008]. Autism prevalence and precipitation rates in California, Oregon, and Washington counties. Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med 162(11):1026-34.
[4] Ousseny Z, Iosif AM, Delwiche L, Walker C, Hertz I [2011]. Month of conception and the risk of autism. Epidemilology 22(4):469-75.
[5] Study Suggests Preemie, Autism Link WebMD www.webmd.com/…/20080402/study-suggests-preemie-autism-link…
[6] Boyles S. [2008]. Study Suggests Preemie, Autism Link. www.webmd.com/…/20080402/study-suggests-preemie-autism-link…].
[7] McDowell MJ [2004]. Is autism statistically linked to early non-maternal child care? [http://cogprints.org/3747/1/Autism-Statistical.html].
[8] World Atlas. [www.worldatlas.com/…/countries-with-the-highest-rates-of-au…]. Accessed: April 2017.
[9] VanMeter KC, Christiansen LE, Delwiche LD, Azari R, Carpenter T, Hertz I [2010]. Geographical distribution of autism in California: a retrospective birth cohort analysis. Autism Res 3(1):19-29.S
[10] Worldwatch Institute. [www.worldwatch.org/node/5920]. Accessed June 2017.
[11] United Press International [2006]. The age of autism: Amish bill introduced. [www.upi.com/The-Age-of-Autism-Amish-bill-in…/35321154110819/]. Accessed: April 2017.
[12] Combatting Autism from Within [2008]. Guess What? The Amish Vaccinate! [http://combatingautismfromwithin.blogspot.com/…/guess-what-…].

Well, Mr Owens, first you'll need to change your theory because 1) the Amish *do* have autism and 2) many of us with family members who are/were autistic can trace these members back a few generations, well before the fluorescent lights. Since you gave reference numbers but no articles, we can't tell if your research is as good as the other stuff spouted off about autism increasing without taking diagnostic substitution into account.

Oren Evans @59: But homes don't have fluorescent lighting. So unless *only* children in daycare develop autism, then it can't be the lights.
A few other confounders you didn't account for: Day cares and pre schools are staffed by early childhood experts (by schooling or experience or both) who are more likely to notice developmental delays compared to parents who don't have as many kids to compare against. Therefore children are more likely to get diagnosed sooner.

The PNW has a large tech sector and many older fathers, both of which are also correlated with higher autism diagnosis rates.

Finally, if this were true, then all of Canada, Scandinavia and Russia would be autistic.

By JustaTech (not verified) on 01 Sep 2017 #permalink

The vast majority of compact fluorescent lamps with built-in drivers capacitively filter the full-wave rectified AC mains voltage to DC with relatively low ripple content, then drive the tube with a switch-mode converter running well into the kilohertz range, vastly above the flicker fusion threshold of any human. The same applies to modern electronic ballasts for linear fluorescent tubes. Many commercial buildings have switched to T5 (5/8" diameter) fluorescent tubes and the only available drivers are electronic. With older magnetic ballast circuits designed to drive an even number of tubes (2 or 4 per ballast), phase shifting between the individual tubes doubles the effective flicker frequency.

I don't buy the hypothesis, and it certainly isn't supported by the behavior of any reasonably modern fluorescent lighting apparatus, with the possible exception of phase-angle controlled dimmable types, which are not at all common.

Guess where the idea that the Amish don’t have Autism comes from?

From Dan Olmsted.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 01 Sep 2017 #permalink

My original comment with the references was too large so I couldn't send it. I tend to believe the Doctors who treat the Amish and not those that have an ax to grind.. Here are the references:
References
[1] Children with Autism Detect Targetsat very Rapid Presentation Rates with similar Results as Adults Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders January 2016 DOI:10.1007/s10803-016-2705-9
[2] Kuller R, Thorbjorn L [1998]. The impact of flicker from fluorescent lighting on well-being, performance and physiological arousal. Ergonomics 41(4):433-47.
[3] Waldman M, Nicholson S, Adilov N, Williams J [2008]. Autism prevalence and precipitation rates in California, Oregon, and Washington counties. Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med 162(11):1026-34.
[4] Ousseny Z, Iosif AM, Delwiche L, Walker C, Hertz I [2011]. Month of conception and the risk of autism. Epidemilology 22(4):469-75.
[5] Study Suggests Preemie, Autism Link WebMD www.webmd.com/brain/autism/news/20080402/study-suggests-preemie-autism-…
[6] Boyles S. [2008]. Study Suggests Preemie, Autism Link. www.webmd.com/brain/autism/news/20080402/study-suggests-preemie-autism-…].
[7] McDowell MJ [2004]. Is autism statistically linked to early non-maternal child care? [http://cogprints.org/3747/1/Autism-Statistical.html].
[8] World Atlas. [www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-with-the-highest-rates-of-autism…]. Accessed: April 2017.
[9] VanMeter KC, Christiansen LE, Delwiche LD, Azari R, Carpenter T, Hertz I [2010]. Geographical distribution of autism in California: a retrospective birth cohort analysis. Autism Res 3(1):19-29.S
[10] Worldwatch Institute. [www.worldwatch.org/node/5920]. Accessed June 2017.
[11] United Press International [2006]. The age of autism: Amish bill introduced. [www.upi.com/The-Age-of-Autism-Amish-bill-introduced/35321154110819/]. Accessed: April 2017.

By Oren Evans (not verified) on 01 Sep 2017 #permalink

I am currently trying to get data from Japan, India and UC Davis. Japan is one culture but two electrical frequencies, the northern half of the main island uses 50 cycle and the southern half 60 cycle. I predict that the northern half will have the highest rate of autism. Remote areas of India has villages without any electricity, I predict little of no autism. A UC Davis study linked a higher risk of autism with some freeway sections but not major roads. The increased risk was for dwellings that were less than 334 yards from the center of the freeway. Considering the width of California freeways that would put the dwellings close to the freeway. I have made many requests but have gotten no response. I believe that Google Earth street level function will show the back (bedroom side) of the dwellings facing the freeway and street lights on those sections. LED, mercury vapor and sodium vapor all have a more pronounced flicker than fluorescent light.

By Oren Evans (not verified) on 01 Sep 2017 #permalink

Looking at your predictions:

If a slower flicker rate increases autism than incandescent bulbs would be the main cause of autism (no flicker).

Lower rates of autism in remote areas of India and I am assuming other remote poor areas of world will have lower autism rates. A simple answer if your prediction is correct is that these areas have poor access to medical attention thus autism is not diagnosed (also infant mortality is much higher).

I don't think your arguments hold much water.

But kudos for at least having citations.

Its a shame the pro-vaccine put so much effort into denying the science.

Vaccines cause brain injuries and autoimmune diseases. Craig Egan is promoting the ongoing epidemic of vaccine injury.

We already know what causes autism, but the medical industry chooses to not understand the science. Autism is caused by inflammation in the brain during prenatal and postnatal development, and the cytokines IL-6 and IL-17a specifically. Aluminum adjuvant in vaccines travels to the brain and causes long term chronic inflammation and stimulation of these cytokines. Thats why vaccines cause autism, and its also why the science done to date (on MMR and thimerosal) has (mostly) come up empty.

This well known quote by U Sinclair captures perfectly why the medical industry has such a hard time understanding the science of autism causation.

"its difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair

By Vaccine Papers (not verified) on 01 Sep 2017 #permalink

Hmmmm - Oren left reference 12 (from his FriendFace post) from his list in post #70. I wonder why.

He says in post #59 "...and Dr. Kevin Strauss practicing in the Pennsylvania Amish area has seen no idiopathic autism, classic autism", and cites reference 11, which is, as friend Julian notes, is from Dan Olmsted.

But Reference 12 ( http://combatingautismfromwithin.blogspot.com/2008/01/guess-what-amish-… ) has this to say -

Strauss says he doesn’t see “idiopathic autism” at the clinic, which he defines as children with average or above average IQs who display autistic behavior. “My personal experience is we don’t see a lot of Amish children with idiopathic autism. It doesn’t mean they don’t exist, only that we aren’t seeing them at the clinic.”

He says a child in the general population is more likely to have autism detected early and to receive a diagnosis than an Amish child. “Amish child may not be referred to an MD or psychologist because the child is managed in the community, where they have special teachers,” he says. “We know autism when we see it, but we don’t go actively into the Amish community and screen for ASD.”

Strauss adds that the Amish have a high prevalence of genetic risk factors and are protected from others. The low rate of idiopathic autism “might have more to do what genetic structure of population than lifestyle, environment or diet.”

What do you do for a living when cherry picking is out of season, Oren?

Vaccine Papers: "Autism is caused by inflammation in the brain during prenatal and postnatal development, and the cytokines IL-6 and IL-17a specifically."

So why are there more cytokines from a vaccine than from something like a full pertussis or Hib infection?

"So why are there more cytokines from a vaccine than from something like a full pertussis or Hib infection?"

Because its only the cytokines in the brain that matter. Aluminum adjuvant induces cytokines and inflammation in the brain specifically.

Also, the DURATION of the inflammation is also important. An infectious illness induces a brief inflammation (which typically does not significantly impact the brain). By comparison, aluminum adjuvant particles remain in the brain for months or years, causing long term chronic inflammation.

Normal infectious illnesses reactions do not cause significant brain inflammation, and do not cause long term chronic inflammation in the brain.

By Vaccine Papers (not verified) on 01 Sep 2017 #permalink

VP: You didn't answer the question. Chris asked you why there are more cytokines from a vaccine, which is antigens, a killed virus, or weakend virus, than from the actual disease.

Saying that only the cytokines in the brain matter does not answer his question. So I'll ask again: Why would a vaccine produce more cytokines than the actual disease?

And you're wrong about infectious diseases not causing significant brain inflammation. Hib and measles are two in particular that are known to do that.

The first cases were diagnosed in the early 1940’s. Fluorescent lighting became commercially available in 1938.

Silly bunny. Kanner gave the condition that name in 1943. Are you going to tell us that there were no diagnoses of Down's Syndrome before someone gave that name to Trisomy-21?

Dr Down diagnosed autistic patients in 1887.
https://www.wisconsinmedicalsociety.org/professional/savant-syndrome/re…

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 01 Sep 2017 #permalink

VP: "Because its only the cytokines in the brain that matter"

So the lack of oxygen getting the brain because the pertussis, Hib (epiglottitis), diphtheria is just a minor concern compared to those terrible vaccine induced cytokines.

Of course the encephalitis and meningitis from Hib is not your concern. Obviously you don't care if a kid becomes permanently disabled by the actual disease.

Chris, first let me thank you for responding to my post. After supper I watched the you tube video you recommended and was amazed that they were attaching significance to gene changes that were found in only 1 or 2 % of autistic people. It seemed like they were standing in a wind storm grasping at straws.
My theory is based on a genetic trait that 100 % of autistic people have.
You asked what had changed in the last 30 years, if you read my theory you would see that it was the introduction of the screw in fluorescent bulb. I'm glad that you mentioned families getting involved.
I have just started trying to get families to volunteer to be part of my research. There is no money involved, no interviews, no Dr.s visits. This would be for newborns and expectant parents. All I want to know is the birth date, the birth weight and gender. After 2 years I will contact the to see if the child is on the spectrum. Of course I will ask that the child avoid fluorescent lighting as much as possible. If you would like to volunteer contact me at ogevans2525@gmail.com..

By Oren Evans (not verified) on 01 Sep 2017 #permalink

herr doktor bimler, Dr. Kammer said it was a new and never before seen condition but you didn't mention that. So yes I don't think it existed prior to fluorescent lighting.

By Oren Evans (not verified) on 01 Sep 2017 #permalink

The first cases were diagnosed in the early 1940’s. Fluorescent lighting became commercially available in 1938.

And Kanner's case notes for his patients trace their condition back to the mid-1930s. "Donald", for instance, was already behaving oddly in 1935. Your evidence destroys your theory.
http://simonsfoundation.s3.amazonaws.com/share/071207-leo-kanner-autist…

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 01 Sep 2017 #permalink

VP, if I may, because you ignored me in that other thread -

In the RFKjr comments you said "This is thoroughly explained and demonstrated in the study. its because the higher dosages have lower transport into the brain. And thats a result of higher LOCAL inflammation.

High local inflammation at the injected site prevents the aluminum adjuvant from traveling to the brain."

Where does the Al go when the local inflammation goes down? Everything has to be somewhere. Does it travel to the brain at that time? If not, why not? If so, why didn't Crepeaux et al find a positive dose/response?

Because its only the cytokines in the brain that matter. Aluminum adjuvant induces cytokines and inflammation in the brain specifically.

Also, the DURATION of the inflammation is also important. An infectious illness induces a brief inflammation (which typically does not significantly impact the brain). By comparison, aluminum adjuvant particles remain in the brain for months or years, causing long term chronic inflammation.

Normal infectious illnesses reactions do not cause significant brain inflammation, and do not cause long term chronic inflammation in the brain.

Oh my, that's a whole lot of ignorance of disease pathobiology.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 01 Sep 2017 #permalink

Dr. Kammer said it was a new and never before seen condition but you didn’t mention that.

Leo Kanner never had the opportunity to read Down's description, so his mistake is understandable. You do have that opportunity, so you do not need to repeat the mistake.

Treffert, Uta Frith, and many others have written about the "pre-Kanner" history of autism. You do not have to agree with their case analyses, but you do have to recognise they exist if you want to argue with autism researchers.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 01 Sep 2017 #permalink

Oren: It's Kanner, not Kammer, and he wasn't telling the truth at all. How do you explain Asperger's work, which was done at the same time but independently of Kanner? Pretty sure Germany didn't have florescent lights. (I also think there was one other doctor, started with a B, who was active at the same time in the same field but didn't work with either of the two I mentioned.)

Actually, looking at old movies, florescent lighting seemed limited to department stores and maybe hospitals, though hardly common outside of big cities.

Also, how do you explain the pervasive myths of changelings found throughout Europe?

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 01 Sep 2017 #permalink

It’s Kanner, not Kammer
Not important. I am sure Oren Evans knows the correct spelling, but he had just spelled out my own name in the same comment, and it is known to cause spontaneous outbreaks of "m"s through a process of alphabetic contagion.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 01 Sep 2017 #permalink

Oren your "research" reminds me of the time my mother found me in the kitchen mixing the kitchen spices together in a cut of water.

When she asked me what I was doing, my response was "an experiment."

I was eight. I got my first lesson in the scientific method that day when she explained to me what a hypothesis and an experiment actually were. She then made me clean up the mess, and found me an appropriate age level book of science experiments the next time the bookmobile came around.

What you're doing isn't research. It's not even a poll, since you rely on parents to change their behaviors. It's about the equivalent of an eight year old mixing kitchen spices together in water and expecting something to happen. Go to the library and find yourself a decent primer on science before you make a real fool of yourself.

Mr. Evans: "After supper I watched the you tube video you recommended and was amazed that they were attaching significance to gene changes that were found in only 1 or 2 % of autistic people. It seemed like they were standing in a wind storm grasping at straws."

Seriously? Do you know how to read a pie chart?

"You asked what had changed in the last 30 years, if you read my theory you would see that it was the introduction of the screw in fluorescent bulb."

Total fail. The big hint was the disappearance of Asperger's from one criteria to another. It is like they realized that intelligence was not determined by the physical ability to speak, so go figure.

The change was in the "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders" over the past thirty years. My son did not qualify under DSM III, but did under both DSM IV and DSM V.

Seriously, dude, you claim to be an "expert", but you totally missed the hint I gave with the reasoning behind an "Asperger" diagnosis. The spectrum expanded between DSM III and DSM IV to include kids who actually laughed and smiled, especially when it was inappropriate.

DSM V focused on the actual detrimental characteristics and required supports. Asperger's was removed because it was realized that kids with severe language impairments (like my son) were intelligent, even though they need several reports. For the record my son was diagnosed with Autism Level 2.

The "screw in fluorescent bulb" explanation is inane. First, it would not explain his neonatal seizures when he was two days old. Plus I never liked them and used them sparingly. Who wants to walk into a room, turn on the lights and wait ten minutes for them to turn on so you can see stuff?

Are you now going to predict a downturn of autism diagnosis due to the introduction of affordable LED lighting?

Oh, crud, I saw it... did not believe it, so I forgot to ask about it.

Mr. Evans: "My theory is based on a genetic trait that 100 % of autistic people have."

What, pray tell us, is that?

Because as far as we know "autism" is a description of dozens of neurological variances that make us sitting comfortably in the standard deviation a bit of confusion.

Mr. Evans: "I have just started trying to get families to volunteer to be part of my research. There is no money involved, no interviews, no Dr.s visits"

That also applies to the genetic research program I mentioned. Also tell them to sign up at:
https://sparkforautism.org/

Oren Evans, my point with my previous comment is this: Unless you know precisely what type of ballast or driver is used for a fluorescent lamp you know precisely nothing. The same applies to sodium vapor, mercury vapor and LED lamps. Even knowing how the lamp is driven isn't really sufficient because there may be other lamps acting to reduce the magnitude or add to the frequency of any luminance ripple. Measuring the luminance ripple in situ is the only fully reliable method - and that assumes that extensive data regarding flicker fusion for various levels of luminance ripple is available.

Science hint: do not use the word "theory" the way you have at #80 unless you are willing to be laughed at by scientists.

Myself: "even though they need several reports."

While this is very true (scan everything, save it on many media!), it was not what I was trying to say. The phrase was supposed to be...

"... even though they need several supports."

Because my son who is near average intelligence still has speech issues, one of those supports is to be patient while he talks. Do not interrupt him, and he is okay if you ask him to clarify.

Oddly enough, this is the same advice you give to someone with a stutter. My son is different... but the accommodation is similar.

Pretty sure Germany didn’t have florescent lights.
I am obliged in the interests of humourless pedantry to remind everyone that Asperger was Austrian, and Austria =/= Germany, as was determined rather conclusively in the middle of last century.
The prevalence of fluorescent lighting in Vienna in the 1930s is not my field of expertise, but any suggestion that Mitteleuropa was technologically backward then, it will not be well-received.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 01 Sep 2017 #permalink

<i.The vast majority of compact fluorescent lamps with built-in drivers capacitively filter the full-wave rectified AC mains voltage to DC with relatively low ripple content, then drive the tube with a switch-mode converter running well into the kilohertz range, vastly above the flicker fusion threshold of any human.

To my immense relief, for my flicker-fusion frequency is quite high, and old-school fluorescent strip-lights used to drive me to distraction, with the visible flicker and the perpetual sense of motion in my peripheral vision.
To the best of my knowledge this did not turn me autistic, and my humourless pedantry, literal understanding of words, unawareness of other people's perspectives, and aversion to social contact are purely part of my culture.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 01 Sep 2017 #permalink

I have just started trying to get families to volunteer to be part of my research.

I do hope you have approval from an IRB.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 02 Sep 2017 #permalink

Luddite VP wrongly states:

Normal infectious illnesses reactions do not cause significant brain inflammation, and do not cause long term chronic inflammation in the brain.

Hmm....ever cared for a patient with meningitis? Of course you haven't, and with your level of smug ignorance I hope you never care for a sick person in your life.

By Chris Hickie (not verified) on 02 Sep 2017 #permalink

Taking a whack at Vaccine Paper's comment #73:

Vaccines cause brain injuries and autoimmune diseases.

What is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

We already know what causes autism...

Hundreds of years ago, people "knew" that witches existed. Today, many people "know" that before Columbus, people believed the Earth was flat. Until I was an adult I "knew" that in France, people were guilty until proven innocent.
"Everyone knows" is a bad argument.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 02 Sep 2017 #permalink

VP: "Normal infectious illnesses reactions do not cause significant brain inflammation, and do not cause long term chronic inflammation in the brain."

Well alrighty then, the common occurrence of significant brain inflammation due to infection can be explained away as being "abnormal" and thus can be ignored.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/encephalitis/symptoms-cau…

The folks at Mayo (a bunch of Science Deniers, doncha know) remind us: "Common childhood infections — such as measles (rubeola), mumps and German measles (rubella) — used to be fairly common causes of secondary encephalitis. These causes are now rare in the United States due to the availability of vaccinations for these diseases."

Ooo, better ignore that too, VP, very inconvenient. Also don't bring up SSPE, as that does not involve your theories about aluminum.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 02 Sep 2017 #permalink

Here's an idea... Be skeptical of anyone who says that they've been doing "research" with "data," but are not affiliated with a team of researchers or a research institution. This is especially true if they have not been trained in the dark arts (biostatistics) or the darker arts (epidemiology). That whole thing about fluorescent lights, for example... WTF?

HDB: I know, I just wanted to give the troll a good poke. I'd still love to hear how he explains Dr. Asperger, Dr, Bettelheim and Dr. Downs's work.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 02 Sep 2017 #permalink

Another example of projection - information sharing even in the early twentieth century was spotty at best. It wasn't as though doctors had email and the Internet to instantly share new and interesting information.

derr doktor bimler, Thank you for the link. I had not seen it before. You are quite right. GE sales started April 21 1938 and the children in the study were born several years prior.

By Oren Evans (not verified) on 02 Sep 2017 #permalink

Oren,

Unfortunately, your proposed hypothesis fails on its face. When the first commercial fluorescent lighting came out around the time of Dr. Kanner's work, they used magnetic ballasts. Such ballasts produce a flicker rate of twice the mains, so 100Hz-120Hz in most of the world. However, at about the time the autism "epidemic" started, the electronic ballast was introduced. The flicker rate of an electronic ballast ranges from 40,000Hz all the way up to 120,000Hz, far too high for your hypothesis to account for. Furthermore, all compact fluorescent lighting, which you specifically targeted as the cause of the increase. If your hypothesis were true, we should have seen a decrease in autism cases in the last 30 years, as magnetic ballasts were phased out.

Sincerely,

W. Kevin VIcklund, P.E.
FEMP Certified Lighting Engineer

By W. Kevin Vicklund (not verified) on 02 Sep 2017 #permalink

Mr. Evans, what changed between 1991 and 2015 in autism?

I believe that Google Earth street level function will show the back (bedroom side) of the dwellings facing the freeway and street lights on those sections. LED, mercury vapor and sodium vapor all have a more pronounced flicker than fluorescent light.

That hasn't been my experience with HPS, although street lamps use LPS. The main problem I see here is distance and the fact that those bulbs have diffusers on the housings.

PGP: "Dr, Bettelheim"

For one thing, he was not actually a "doctor" of anything? Just another fraud in a long list of frauds when it came to autism.

W. Kevin Vicklund and herr doktor bimler,
You are right about the electronic ballasts and some research shows that the rate is leveling off. The very first CFLs did use magnetic ballasts. Getting back to Dr, Kanners research, while fluorescent light could not be the problem mercury vapor could be. It was used in industrial applications in the early 1900's and by 1910 was used in water treatment for the ultra violet output. By the 1930's improved lamps developed by Osram-GEC, GE and others led to wide spread use for general use. Since mercury vapor lights have a more pronounced flicker than fluorescent lights I will not discard my theory yet.

By Oren Evans (not verified) on 02 Sep 2017 #permalink

wide spread use for general lighting.

By Oren Evans (not verified) on 02 Sep 2017 #permalink

Mr. Evans, what very important thing changed twice between 1991 and 2015?

This is basic information for anyone who works with autism.

Hypothesis, Oren. Hypothesis.

When you are investigating a question in science you create a hypothesis. It is always an open ended question. For example, "What happens when sugar is exposed to high heat?" not a yes or no type of question . . .or a statement that on its face looks like a foregone conclusion: because we don't want to introduce bias into our experiment.

A theory is science is a principle or a conclusion that has been shown consistently through repeated experimentation or observation to be correct. I know through repeated observation that if I drop a cup, it will fall to the floor. It will not float up to the ceiling. It happens that way every time I drop a cup. If I drop two cups at the exact same moment, they will fall at the same rate and hit the floor at the same time; one should not fall faster than the other. If one does, then there is a variance that needs to be explained, which sets up the next hypothesis.

If you're going to investigate something, the hypothesis you form has to make sense in context with other knowledge we have about how the natural world works. This is why homeopathy fails; the notion that you can be cured by something that makes you sick doesn't make the least bit of sense, and the idea is not testable; there is no dilution you can achieve that will produce anything greater than the placebo effect.

For you to prove that fluorescent lights cause autism, you have to first explain why that would be so, and you have to explain why EVERYONE doesn't have autism. You can't even get to coincidence (much less correlation) from the historical information you've supplied, therefore asking parents to keep their kids away from fluorescent lighting in a modern society is not a truly testable idea, and that's before we even deal with issues of how you would collect such data and ensure it is reliable.

Seriously: you're a kid mixing kitchen spices and waiting to see what happens. What you are doing isn't science, and you don't even understand the bare bones principles behind it if you keep misusing the word theory.

PGP: “Dr, Bettelheim”
For one thing, he was not actually a “doctor” of anything? Just another fraud in a long list of frauds when it came to autism.

Arguably Bettelheim was the *first* in that long list -- the first person to see autism as an income stream, and the true predecessor of Bradstreet and the DAN charlatans.

Anyway, Bettelheim claimed to be an expert on "emotionally-disturbed children" when he took control of the Orthogenic School. He didn't specifically claim to be treating and curing autism (with his regimen of parental deprival, neglect and corporal punishment) until the 1950s / 60s. So not relevant to the pre-Kanner history of autism.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 02 Sep 2017 #permalink

By the 1930’s improved lamps developed by Osram-GEC, GE and others led to wide spread use for general [lighting]. Since mercury vapor lights have a more pronounced flicker than fluorescent lights I will not discard my theory yet.

Define "wide spread" and "general," and note again that coated bulbs are going to smear out flicker. Streetlamps are not going to cut it.

# 112 Panacea,

Just to help me here. Would it be better to say that a hypothesis always CAN BE framed as an open-ended question? I'm just thinking that, maybe as shorthand, hypotheses are quite often framed as statements of putative fact to be tested.

Maybe I'm old fashioned. I grew up on Conjectures and Refutations. And, of course, later Wakefield.

By Brian Deer (not verified) on 02 Sep 2017 #permalink

hdb: I am sure there were others before Bettelhiem who promised cures for "defective" children. They probably had limited publicity.

I am amazed at what kind of quackery has surfaced through the years, and the ways one can find it. Like a local history comedy podcast about a quack who starved folks:
http://theseattlefiles.com/2016/01/05/episode-10-starvation-heights/

She moved to New Zealand:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linda_Hazzard

HDB: I went back and read your comment about Dr. Asperger. I knew he was Austrian, but for some reason I'd thought he'd done work in Germany as well.
I was not trying to imply Europe was backward, but given the tensions in 1938, it's reasonable to assume that imports would have been impacted, so I don't know for sure whether florescent bulbs made it over there pre-war.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 03 Sep 2017 #permalink

Panacea,
You are right I am using Theory where I should be using hypothesis, sue me. If you read my paper you would know why not EVERYONE is affected. It’s due to the differences in visual processing speed. It varies from individual to individual and more generally between males and females. You might look at a light and see it as a steady light but I could see it as flickering and very bothersome. We know that autism is a brain related problem . So when I see EEG research that proves that the faster the visual processing speed is the more the brain waves are altered and other research that shows that autistic people have a much faster visual processing speed than the general population and another that shows males have a faster visual processing speed than females and that the male/female autism ratio is 6/1, That gets my attention. My hypothesis is that there is a subset of infants that have a high enough visual processing speed to suffer alterations in their social foundation and the lower the frequency the larger the subset.
It’s easy to sit back and be critical but when you have a better solution I’ll be very happy to listen.

By Oren Evans (not verified) on 03 Sep 2017 #permalink

If autism starts in the womb, what light would cause then to become autistic?

Mr. Evans, what very important document changed twice between 1991 and 2015? I even told you the answer, but you seem to be evading recognizing its relevance to your claims.

"So when I see EEG research..."

What is your education and qualifications to evaluate EEG data?

"If autism starts in the womb, what light would cause then to become autistic?"

I just saw a Star Trek rerun in which a specific light frequency was beamed onto a planet suffering an alien infestation (the beam was able to penetrate into enclosed spaces, so presumably had an intrauterine effect as well). Or maybe some expectant Moms swallow those little book lights so their fetuses can get a head start on reading assignments.

Use your imagination, connect the dots.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 03 Sep 2017 #permalink

I see that Chris and Lawrence have asked a few of my own questions/ remarks to Mr Evans so at this point rather than exhausting myself explaining data we have about ASDs I'll just say-
Oy vey!

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 03 Sep 2017 #permalink

It is fascinating that this self proclaimed "expert" on autism seems to be ignoring well known facts.

I'm still sticking with my hypothesis that broccoli consumption leads to autism.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 03 Sep 2017 #permalink

Oren Evans (#59) writes,

The best way to change the minds of AVers is to find the real cause of autism.

MJD says,

Not surprisingly, climate-change indicators (e.g., atmospheric carbon dioxide) has not been considered an environmental component in the etiology of ASD.

http://www.cambridgescholars.com/patents-and-climate-change

If Orac turned his back on a few of my comments I'd present a "suspected" cause of regressive autism.

Q. What's another name for auto-moderation, for some commenter's, here at the ScienceBlogs Respectful-Insolence.

A. Solitary confinement.

By Michael J. Dochniak (not verified) on 03 Sep 2017 #permalink

Evans: Have you also looked at the differences in how boys and girls are taught to socialize? Or how often doctors entirely miss autism in girls? It's easy to have a skewed gender ratio if the diagnostician isn't looking at one gender at all.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 03 Sep 2017 #permalink

"Chris asked you why there are more cytokines from a vaccine, which is antigens, a killed virus, or weakend virus, than from the actual disease."

You left out the most dangerous ingredient: the adjuvant.

I did answer the question.

Aluminum adjuvant travels into the brain and causes long term chronic inflammation IN THR BRAIN. Natural infectious illnesses do not cause long term chronic inflammation in the brain, except in severe cases (e.g. if the infection is in the brain).

"Where does the Al go when the local inflammation goes down? Everything has to be somewhere. Does it travel to the brain at that time? If not, why not? If so, why didn’t Crepeaux et al find a positive dose/response?"

Thats a good question and should be the subject of future research. After the granuloma dissipates (granulomas can last months or years), there may be new mechanisms that retain the Al adjuvant (e.g. such as scar tissue, which can form in a granuloma). Alternatively, as the granuloma resolves, the Al adjuvant may become mobile.

Transport of Al adjuvant into the brain is immune-mediated, and specifically it is caused by movement of Al-loaded macrophages. Transport to the brain will be minimal unless the macrophages are stimulated to travel into the brain. Macrophage movement occurs in response to some types of inflammation, and specifically when the chemokine MCP-1 is produced in the brain.

The Al adjuvant appears to mostly stay at the injection site. In Crepeaux, about 1.3% of the injected Al dose wound up in the brain. Transport is likely dependent on immune system genetics (e.g. tendency of microglia to produce MCP-1) and environmental exposures that cause inflammation.

Transport to the brain can take a while-weeks or months. Delayed transport explains why vaccine safety studies with short follow-up periods (few days or weeks) cannot detect the adverse effects on the brain. In the animal experiments the Al adjuvant appears in the brain about 4-8 weeks after injection. May take longer in humans.

"Ooo, better ignore that too, VP, very inconvenient. Also don’t bring up SSPE, as that does not involve your theories about aluminum."

Infectious diseases can definitely damage the brain, including measles and rubella for example. I would never argue that these diseases do not have the potential to damage the brain.

Question is: does vaccinating or not vaccinating have greater risk with regard to brain injury?

If not vaccinating had greater risk, then we should have observed a DECLINE in autism and neurodevelopmental disorders in children as vaccine usage increased in the 1980s and 1990s. Thats not what happened. Incidence of these disorders increased in parallel with increasing exposure to Al adjuvants. That is consistent with vaccines having a greater risk of brain injury.

By Vaccine Papers (not verified) on 03 Sep 2017 #permalink

I find it most interesting that you use the word "may" (or its synonyms) so often. This shows me that your Aluminum adjuvant claims are conjectures and other excuses, not to be taken as having any merit whatsoever.

By Se Habla Espol (not verified) on 03 Sep 2017 #permalink

In reply to by Vaccine Papers (not verified)

Brian: You could frame a hypthesis as a closed ended question but then you have to be more careful of bias. For example, if I ask "How does X medication affect blood pressure," there is the assumption it actually does, and that might not be proven. If I ask "Does X medication improve blood pressure," if the answer I want is Yes, it's easier to come to the conclusion I'm looking for or want.

Oren needs to answer an essential question before he goes about trying to convince parents to avoid fluorescent light: is there a correlation between this type of light an autism, then he needs to ask does correlation equal causation. He hasn't proven correlation, and yet he's trying to jump to causation.

He's asking the wrong questions.

And Oren: terminology does matter. That you don't respect the terminology is why you're skipping steps, and it's why your "research" is useless, and can only come to the conclusion you've predetermined.

I’m still sticking with my hypothesis that broccoli consumption leads to autism.

No. Broccoli has existed for hundreds of years. RADAR was invented in the mid-1930s and spread very fast.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_radar

Oren is right about it being an 'electrical' problem, but he's at the wrong end of the spectrum. RADAR frequencies can penetrate the brain. Broccoli just penetrates the bladder.

Aluminum adjuvant travels into the brain and causes long term chronic inflammation IN THR BRAIN. Natural infectious illnesses do not cause long term chronic inflammation in the brain, except in severe cases (e.g. if the infection is in the brain)

Dan, please answer the question I keep asking you and you keep dodging. What is the order of tissue deposition for aluminium?

By Science Mom (not verified) on 03 Sep 2017 #permalink

VP, you wrote lots of stuff, but left out the actual answer to the question and actual supporting documentation. Just you blabbering on about adjuvants.

Again, why would the vaccine cause more cytokines than the actual factual disease. Seriously epiglottis is a cytokine reaction that literally chokes kids to death.

Newsflash: cytokine inflammation from infection does not just happen in the brain.

Come on, show us with actual factual scientific evidence that the vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases.

Oren needs to answer an essential question ...

And as W. Kevin and I have tried to hammer into him, he is basing his hypothesis on a notion that is clearly false with regard to most compact fluorescent lamps and many others. Based on what he has posted, he was unaware of this. Even if he could demonstrate correlation between use of fluorescent lamps and autism, he would still not have demonstrated correlation between flicker and autism unless he had data quantifying flicker for each individual case. His underlying assumption is one that begs the question.

... but when you have a better solution ...

Were we talking about evolution or origins, this would be a "god of the gaps" argument. A poor and unsupported hypothesis does not deserve serious consideration simply because there are gaps in knowledge.

I would be much more receptive to an hypothesis that luminance ripple ("flicker") may be more likely to be annoying to people with ASD than others in the general population. It is by no means a trivial task to gather good data.

D'oh! I read broccoli, but was thinking asparagus. I hate when that happens.

I wish I could install a wind turbine near VP post #128. All that hand waving kicks up a pretty good breeze.

Johnny: " All that hand waving kicks up a pretty good breeze."

;-)

Science Mom: "Dan, please answer the question I keep asking you and you keep dodging. What is the order of tissue deposition for aluminium?"

I have only slightly more biology education than VP, essentially a beginning college lever course. But I do at least know the vaccine is given in the arm.

I have actually witnessed a pair of children's hospital doctors using a tiny camera to check for epiglottis in my kid during one of his many visits to the emergency department for croup. They had a great deal of trouble getting that little camera in a crying toddler's throat.

I don't know about Vaccine Paper, but I pretty much know the neck and throat are between a human arm and brain.

By the way one comment from this pair of obviously stressed doctors (probably medical residents) was that they had seen lots less epiglottis since the Hib vaccine was being used. At that time the age limit did not include kids younger than preschool.

By the way, my kid was hospitalized multiple times for croup. While it was not pertussis, diphtheria or Hib... it is still frightening. I am dismayed that Vaccine Papers does not understand that a child not being able to breathe is is not as serious as his "cytokine from adjuvant" fantasy.

"Again, why would the vaccine cause more cytokines than the actual factual disease."

Its not merely the magnitude of cytokine expression. The chronicity is important. Animal experiments show the brain inflammation ongoing 6 months after injection.

Aluminum adjuvants travel into the brain.

Regular infections do not do this, except in very rare circumstances. And common childhood infections do not cause long term chronic inflammation in the brain.

I have already answered your question multiple times.

Scientific citations and context are provided at the VP website. Here is a recent example showing that Al adjuvant (at vaccine dosages) travels into the brain, causes behavioral abnormalities and causes microglial activation up to at least 6 months after injection.

http://vaccinepapers.org/al-adjuvant-causes-brain-inflammation-behavior…

Where is your evidence for the neurological safety of aluminum adjuvants? When I look at the literature cited here and elsewhere, I find NOTHING demonstrating that aluminum adjuvants are safe for the nervous system. The studies only look at short term acute/local reactions. You cannot use such evidence to support NEUROLOGICAL safety. But thats what the pro-vaccine are doing. It makes no sense.

By Vaccine Papers (not verified) on 03 Sep 2017 #permalink

"What is the order of tissue deposition for aluminium?"

I dont understand this question.

Are you asking for data on how the Al adjuvant distributes in the body?

Flarend is the only study I know of to address this, but the Flarend data did the measurements at 28 days, which is too short. Flarend measured Al in kidney, spleen, liver, heart, lymph nodes and brain. The brain had the lowest levels of these tissues. Unfortunately, the Flarend study did not use unexposed controls.

Can you please explain the relevance of your question?

By Vaccine Papers (not verified) on 03 Sep 2017 #permalink

I don’t know about Vaccine Paper, but I pretty much know the neck and throat are between a human arm and brain.

Evidently the macrophages function like little UPS delivery vans. The moment aluminium colloids are detected in the arm, their role is to phagocytose the particles and then to make their way all the way to the brain -- using their little cellular GPS units for guidance -- to deliver these packages to the proper destination. I guess they evolved for that purpose. This is Shoenfeld's Just-so story and who am I to argue?

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 03 Sep 2017 #permalink

Dan said in response to Chris:

Chris: “What is the order of tissue deposition for aluminium?”

Dan: I dont understand this question.

And that, Dan, is why you haven't a f***ing clue as to what you are talking about. He's not asking about absorption into the blood stream. He's not even asking about crossing the blood brain barrier (notoriously difficult to do). He's asking about the cellular level.

If you can't explain how the process works, you don't understand what you are talking about. See you have to first show that it is even plausible for aluminum to enter brain tissue and cause inflammation. You have to show what that inflammation would be different than any other kind of inflammation. You have to show what that specific inflammation (if it exists) would be the cause of autism when unvaccinated children also are diagnosed with autism.

There are so many barriers to proving your claim, and if even one falls apart, they all fall apart. You can cherry pick from studies all you like, it will never get you where you want to go because you don't understand what you are talking about.

You haven't even proven that aluminum adjuvants travel into brain tissue yet. You keep making the claim, but you haven't and can't prove it.

BTW I looked at Flarend. Please explain to me why a rabbit study proves anything in humans.

Then explain why aluminum deposits are greater in the kidney in the brain, and you would be getting closer to answering Chris's question.

I still haven't figured out why brain would want something else's used macrophages when it can whomp up its own shiny new ones.

Aluminum hydroxide is a questionable vaccine component.

Most important, aluminum-hydroxides affinity and binding characteristics with endogenous proteins, compared to vaccine antigens, has not been adequately studied.

In other applications, aluminum hydroxide has been patented as a means to remove allergens from commercial materials. https://patents.google.com/patent/US8324312B2/en

Therefore, the "absolute" safety and efficacy of aluminum-hydroxide continues to be questioned when used as an immunologic adjuvant.

By Michael J. Dochniak (not verified) on 04 Sep 2017 #permalink

Panacea: "Chris: “What is the order of tissue deposition for aluminium?”"

That was a question from Science Mom.

Vaccine Papers, I did not see any PubMed indexed in your verbiage. I have told you multiple times I will not click on any link that takes me to your personal website.

So, again, for the third time: how are the cytokines from a vaccine more dangerous than those from an actual disease? Just post the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers in this comment stream...

...not a link to your website.

Mr. Vaccine Papers continues to claim: "Aluminum adjuvants travel into the brain...Regular infections do not do this, except in very rare circumstances."

Well, let's see. Looking at just one vaccine-preventable disease (measles), we find the incidence of associated encephalitis is one in one thousand cases. Given that 3-4 million annual measles cases were the norm in pre-vaccine years, that's 3-4 thousand cases of measles encephalitis annually. Too "rare" to matter?

And what of the current 8 million cases of invasive Hib disease around the world, and 400,000 annual deaths from Hib meningitis and pneumonia in places where Hib vaccine is largely unavailable? Are those casualties to be waved off as insignificant too?

This evidence is documented and readily available from the WHO, CDC etc. (unlike unsupported claims of chronic brain inflammation from aluminum adjuvant).

Seriously, Mr. Papers, you need to find a line of jabber that doesn't come off as both ignorant and callous.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 04 Sep 2017 #permalink

Whups! My apologies.

"Evidently the macrophages function like little UPS delivery vans. The moment aluminium colloids are detected in the arm, their role is to phagocytose the particles and then to make their way all the way to the brain — using their little cellular GPS units for guidance — to deliver these packages to the proper destination. I guess they evolved for that purpose. This is Shoenfeld’s Just-so story and who am I to argue?"

Thats basically correct. Microglia in the brain produce macrophage chemotactic protein (MCP-1) in response to inflammation. And MCP-1 attracts macrophages into the brain.

"we find the incidence of associated encephalitis is one in one thousand cases. "

This does not cause long term chronic inflammation. The inflammation resolves. Inflammation from aluminum adjuvant persists, and thats what causes the brain damage and autism.

"how are the cytokines from a vaccine more dangerous than those from an actual disease?"

For the third time: because they are PERSISTENT. Cytokines and inflammation stimulated by aluminum adjuvant does not go away. It persists for months or years. Cytokines from an infection resolve quickly.

By Vaccine Papers (not verified) on 04 Sep 2017 #permalink

"Are those casualties to be waved off as insignificant too?"

Yes. The brain damage from vaccines and aluminum adjuvant is much greater.

it would be ideal to have truly safe vaccines.

"BTW I looked at Flarend. Please explain to me why a rabbit study proves anything in humans."

Flarend provides the best data we have on aluminum adjuvant kinetics. Even the FDAs 2011 study by Mitkus uses it in their modeling.

Sounds like you don't understand the concept of using animal models in biomedical research.

By Vaccine Papers (not verified) on 04 Sep 2017 #permalink

"I still haven’t figured out why brain would want something else’s used macrophages when it can whomp up its own shiny new ones."

Reasons why can be debated and are speculative. Macrophage recruitment into the brain may better protect the brain from invasive infections, thereby providing a survival advantage.

It definitely happens though. Examples:

http://www.jneurosci.org/content/29/7/2089.long

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5095060/

By Vaccine Papers (not verified) on 04 Sep 2017 #permalink

"Transport to the brain can take a while-weeks or months. Delayed transport explains why vaccine safety studies with short follow-up periods (few days or weeks) cannot detect the adverse effects on the brain. In the animal experiments the Al adjuvant appears in the brain about 4-8 weeks after injection. May take longer in humans. "

Hey Age of Autism! Vaccine Papers just called all the parents whose child had changed on the day of the shot, or those who heard the terrifying Encephalitic scream; filthy liars.

Go git im ;)

Thats basically correct. Microglia in the brain produce macrophage chemotactic protein (MCP-1) in response to inflammation. And MCP-1 attracts macrophages into the brain.

SO your theory is that microglia produce MCP-1 in response to local inflammation, attracting aluminium-laden macrophages from as far away as the arm, when then cause the brain inflammation that attracted them.
I am guessing that the Endochronic Properties of Resublimated Thiotimoline are involved in this circular causality.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 04 Sep 2017 #permalink

Wake me up when one of you comes up with a hypothesis that potentially explains the male/female ratio, the rates in the NW US, in day cares, in the California clusters, the seasonal variation and the low Amish rate. Not a bunch of scattered unrelated causes like mold, lack of vitamin D, lack of face time with the mother, the fathers type of work, air pollution, mercury and aluminium. Come on people tie them all together.

By Oren Evans (not verified) on 04 Sep 2017 #permalink

Don't bother taking your nap until you demonstrate that the "phenomena" you claim are actual connected phenomena, rather than just a collection of random claims. You can conjecture all you want, but your conjecture is meaningless until (a) evidence is shown and (b) contrary evidence is fully explained.

By Se Habla Espol (not verified) on 04 Sep 2017 #permalink

In reply to by Oren Evans (not verified)

So you are not going to answer any my questions, Mr. Evans.

In other anti-vax news....

( I saw this on the Vaccine Machine facebook)

On the 29th ( a week later in LA), a new film about AJW, The Pathological Optimist, will premier at NYC's Angelika Theatre. There's a trailer and an eponymous facebook page.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 04 Sep 2017 #permalink

Mr. Evans, why are most color blind people male? What sex are those with Fragile X? The answer to your question has to do with XX versus XY, plus some variations of the same.

For someone who claims to be researching autism you seem to lack a basic high school understanding of biology and genetics.

Vaccine Papers, just post the PubMed indexed papers by reputable qualified researchers that the cytokines from the vaccines are more dangerous than the cytokines from the diseases like Hib, pertussis, tetanus, diphtheria, etc.

Again, do not link to your stupid website. Make sure there is an actual comparison.

Also, Vaccine Papers, I see why you avoid posting the PubMed papers here The authors of some of the papers on your page (yes I looked) are included in the one source to several UNqualified and DIS reputable researchers here:
http://www.vaccinesafetyconference.com/speakers.html

Animal experiments show the brain inflammation ongoing 6 months after injection.

No they don't.

I dont understand this question.

Can you please explain the relevance of your question?

Then you have no business commenting on a subject you know nothing about.

Unfortunately, the Flarend study did not use unexposed controls.

Flarend et al. used tagged aluminium FFS. The same was found in a rat study (the authors elude me at the moment). If you are going to try and argue the radioactive isotope alone has that tissue deposition, good luck with that.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 04 Sep 2017 #permalink

Vaccine Papers, it seems you do not understand the science or know about "relative risk." I have asked you several times to show vaccine cytokines are more dangerous than those from the diseases... with PubMed cites. And you continue to fail.

I have met a woman whose first child died from Hib meningitis, and yet you whine about the most common metal element on this planet's crust.

Why am I being redirected to a video ad at the top of this page on funerals? Who is the idiot who skipped the "kill ad x"?

Microglia in the brain produce macrophage chemotactic protein (MCP-1) in response to inflammation. And MCP-1 attracts macrophages into the brain.

Microglia are macrophages, genius.

Vaccine Papers: "Question is: does vaccinating or not vaccinating have greater risk with regard to brain injury?"

Which you have failed to answer.

"If not vaccinating had greater risk, then we should have observed a DECLINE in autism and neurodevelopmental disorders in children as vaccine usage increased in the 1980s and 1990s."

So what very important document changed twice between 1991 and 2015? It was the reason the neurologist told that my smiling non-verbal three year old was definitely not autistic. But in 2015 he was diagnosed with autism level 2.

The kid never grew out of the tics like the neurologist told would happen during a 1996 appointment. Because, even though the document had been changed it had not made into the full medical world.

Seriously, what is more dangerous: a full Hib infection or the most common metal element on this planet's crust?

Okay, for lurkers, another push for families to actually help autism research:
https://sparkforautism.org/

It requires an online registration. I tried, but my son is over age eighteen so he has to do it... that is not going to happen.

Hey, Danny Boy... I assume your attempt to do "science" with aluminum is because you have a child with autism. Dump that stupid website and sign your family up for that genetic research program. They just want you to fill out a questionnaire and contribute some spit from father, mother and child.

@Oren Evans #157:

Wake me up when one of you comes up with a hypothesis that potentially explains the male/female ratio, the rates in the NW US, in day cares, in the California clusters, the seasonal variation and the low Amish rate.

Just because we haven't come up with an alternative hypothesis it doesn't automatically follow that your hypothesis is correct.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 04 Sep 2017 #permalink

"Wake me up when one of you comes up with a hypothesis that potentially explains the male/female ratio, the rates in the NW US, in day cares, in the California clusters, the seasonal variation and the low Amish rate. Not a bunch of scattered unrelated causes like mold, lack of vitamin D, lack of face time with the mother, the fathers type of work, air pollution, mercury and aluminium. Come on people tie them all together."

Immune activation and cytokines explain all this stuff. For example, vitamin D strongly reduces IL-17 expression Shown to cause autism).

Pollutants, nutrient deficiencies and toxic metals like aluminum adjuvant cause inflammation and cytokine expression in the brain.

The causal biochemical mechanisms of autism are now known. Autism is very clearly caused by inflammation and cytokine in the brain during development. Specifically, autism is caused by elevated IL-6 and IL-17a.

Looks like nobody has challenged the macrophage transport evidence. Do you folks concede this point?

"I have asked you several times to show vaccine cytokines are more dangerous than those from the diseases"

I have explained several times that it is the PERSISTENCE of the neuro-inflammation induced by aluminum adjuvant that makes it dangerous. Im not talking about the inflammation at the injection site. Im talking about persistent inflammation in the brain.

Do you agree that persistent neuroinflammation is harmful? Neuroinflammation during brain development? This is also basic, but I can provide citations if you require.

There is no single paper comparing the time evolution of brain cytokines from Al adjuvant and infections. Do you need me to post studies showing that cytokine expression in the brain after infectious illness is transient and not persistent? Seems trivial.

There are several studies now showing that the neuroinflammation induced by aluminum adjuvant is persistent (e.g. present 6 months after injection).

By Vaccine Papers (not verified) on 04 Sep 2017 #permalink

"Seriously, what is more dangerous: a full Hib infection or the most common metal element on this planet’s crust?"

"you whine about the most common metal element on this planet’s crust."

Aluminum is extremely neurotoxic. The proportion of Al in the surface layer of the Earth does not logically imply neurological safety and is not relevant to its neurotoxicity.

Humans are not adapted to tolerate injections of aluminum compound nanoparticles.

if you have evidence supporting the neurological safety of aluminum adjuvants, please provide link.

By Vaccine Papers (not verified) on 04 Sep 2017 #permalink

"Hey Age of Autism! Vaccine Papers just called all the parents whose child had changed on the day of the shot, or those who heard the terrifying Encephalitic scream"

Reactions can occur immediately as well, though this is probably less common.

Aluminum also induces MCP-1, so it may stimulate its own transport into the brain. So, once a bit of aluminum adjuvant enters the brain, MCP-1 is stimulated, attracting additional macrophages. Clearly, this can cause a positive feedback effect of increasing brain inflammation and Al transport into the brain.

In human autistic brains, MCP-1 is particularly and consistently elevated.

The vargas 2005 study (which analyzed cytokine levels in autistic brain samples) states:

“The presence of MCP-1 is of particular interest, because it facilitates the infiltration and accumulation of monocytes and macrophages in inflammatory central nervous system disease.”
AND
“MCP-1, a chemokine involved in innate immune reactions and important mediator for monocyte and T-cell activation and trafficking into areas of tissue injury, appeared to be one of the most relevant proteins found in cytokine protein array studies because it was significantly elevated in both brain tissues and cerebrospinal fluid.”
AND
“The increased expression of MCP-1 has relevance to the pathogenesis of autism because we believe its elevation in the brain is linked to microglial activation and perhaps to the recruitment of monocytes/macrophages to areas of neurodegeneration…”

By Vaccine Papers (not verified) on 04 Sep 2017 #permalink

Very nice, VP. About time you posted *something * from Pubmed. That was printed in 2005. It's now 2017. There should be tons of studies supporting that hypothesis if it held up under scrutiny. How about more studies? Oh, and by the way...the study - or at least the abstract, doesn't mention aluminium.

There should be tons of studies supporting that hypothesis if it held up under scrutiny. How about more studies? Oh, and by the way…the study – or at least the abstract, doesn’t mention aluminium.

It's a valid paper although no, hasn't been replicated widely. Due to the difficulty obtaining tissue samples I'd presume. Of course it doesn't have anything to do with aluminium; that's Dan's schtick, to cobble together different unrelated studies and declare his "theory" is correct and validated. Vargas was horrified to learn his study was used by the curebie crowd to justify the use of off-label anti-inflammatories and anti-virals. He has stipulated that his observations have no known aetiology and could be autism preceded the inflammation.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 05 Sep 2017 #permalink

Thanks, Science Mom. I have rather restricted internet access at work, so could only view the abstract. But I figured it didn't say what VP claimed it said.

And none of them mention an actual disease. Danny Boy still does not understand the difference of effect between the actual factual toxins created by the four bacterial diseases I have mentioned and the most common metal element on this planet's crust.

Oddly enough, neither these guys wit their pet "theories" seem to understand what real researchers are discovering about the dozens of genetic conditions all lumped under the "autism" name. Oh, in case they forgot, just go to:
https://sparkforautism.org/portal/page/autism-research/

There are at least two more recent studies that have found that people with autism have brain abnormalities that would have already been present in utero-which makes VP's claims about aluminium in vaccines causing autism even more obviously ridiculous.

Courchesne, Eric, et al. "Neuron number and size in prefrontal cortex of children with autism." Jama 306.18 (2011): 2001-2010.
Stoner, Rich, et al. "Patches of disorganization in the neocortex of children with autism." New England Journal of Medicine 370.13 (2014): 1209-1219.
APA

Se Habla Espol #158
If we could keep 10,000 infants away from fluorescent light and had no cases of autism I think that would count as evidence. So let's get qualified researchers to evaluate the 300,000 Amish to determine their autism rate.

By Oren Evans (not verified) on 05 Sep 2017 #permalink

let’s get qualified researchers to evaluate the 300,000 Amish to determine their autism rate.

It's been done. The research found no significant difference in autism rates between the Amish and "Them English". With your self-proclaimed expertise on the subject, I'm sure you are aware of this non-AoA work. Right?

By Se Habla Espol (not verified) on 05 Sep 2017 #permalink

In reply to by Oren Evans (not verified)

Vaccine Papers #169
Which of the causes that you mentioned explain the male/female ratio, the day care correlation or the NW US ratio.

By Oren Evans (not verified) on 05 Sep 2017 #permalink

Looks like nobody has challenged the macrophage transport evidence.

*koff*

This isn't the first time you've trotted out the macrophage routine here, Dan. It has not improved with age.

Do you folks concede this point?

It's not even wrong, that I'll concede.

To VP,

Lets see if you can solve a simple math problem: Find a good toxicology reference and look up the daily body load for Al per kilogram of body weight, using a 5 kg child (kinda small) multiply daily body load by 5. You now have the daily body load for a 5 kg child. Now take amount of the Al adjuvant in vaccine and find the percentage of the Al adjuvant to the daily body load. It will be a very small number.

Remember dose makes the poison.

Chris #161
The fragile X male/female ratio 57/43, not anywhere close to the 85/15 ratio for autism.

By Oren Evans (not verified) on 05 Sep 2017 #permalink

Mr. Evans, what is the ratio for color blindness?

Mr. Evans there is a stark difference between Fragile X in males versus females. From:
https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/fxs/data.html

Which has these comparisons:

"About 44% of women with FXS achieved a high or very high level of independence in adult life."

"About 9% of men with FXS achieved a high or very high level of independence in adult life."

Notice a difference? So what was the last class you took in biology,?

(Will someone please kill that stupid video ad for funeral services that keeps making my cursor jump to the top of the page!)

Hey, Danny Boy… I assume your attempt to do “science” with aluminum is because you have a child with autism.

I'm thinking he's more of a Gerg type.

"There are at least two more recent studies that have found that people with autism have brain abnormalities that would have already been present in utero"

2 reasons why this is wrong:

1-Correlation is not causation, and
2-Changes not proven to be present prenatally. The prenatal origin is ASSUMED, based on the belief that such changes (e.g. disruption of cortical layers) cannot occur postnatally. This assumption is wrong.

"Lets see if you can solve a simple math problem: Find a good toxicology reference and look up the daily body load for Al per kilogram of body weight, using a 5 kg child (kinda small) multiply daily body load by 5. You now have the daily body load for a 5 kg child. Now take amount of the Al adjuvant in vaccine and find the percentage of the Al adjuvant to the daily body load. It will be a very small number."

Thats not what you get.

And, its not an apples-to-apples comparison because the forms are different. Al from vaccines is particulate. Al from ingestion is Al3+.

"Which of the causes that you mentioned explain the male/female ratio, the day care correlation or the NW US ratio."

Immune activation/cytokine exposure produces sexually dimorphic effects. Brain injury from Al adjuvant is greater in male animals.

By Vaccine Papers (not verified) on 05 Sep 2017 #permalink

Chris@176,

I went to the spark for autism website and tried to create an account but unfortunately, by virtue of asking for a zip code and not accepting anything else (postal codes here include letters), it seem this is US of A only.

Alain

Oren: "If we could keep 10,000 infants away from fluorescent light and had no cases of autism I think that would count as evidence."

How about a retrospective study looking at autism rates among children who were exposed to phototherapy with fluorescent lights as infants for bilirubinemia? Or a study comparing LED and fluorescent lights for bilirubinemia and also looking at autism incidence within the two groups? Or even a study to see if handling the light sources with and without latex gloves makes a difference?

Inquiring minds just gotta know.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 05 Sep 2017 #permalink

Sorry about that. It is probably have to do with federal laws on human research subjects. Though that should not be an issue with both Dan and Oren, since they are located in the USA.

They have no excuse for promoting their own silly theories when they can be supporting real scientific research.

Chris: Except the real scientific research would tell them that their genes, like everyone else's aren't perfect, and these are guys who are convinced (and want to stay that way) that their toilets smell like roses. Bet they voted for Trump too.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 05 Sep 2017 #permalink

Mr Oren Evans,

The fragile X male/female ratio 57/43, not anywhere close to the 85/15 ratio for autism.

Have you investigated the diagnostic criteria to figure out if there was a cultural bias which prevent having a ratio closer to 50/50 for autism in both boys and girls?

Next task for anyone interested would be to figure out a diagnostic procedure to diagnose autistic adults (same ratio targeted 50/50) as the current tests are targeting children only.

Alain

"kill that stupid video ad"

Get an ad blocker and kill it yourself. No one else will.

Chris #183
I used the link that you provided and checked all 104 papers, all of the current research and all of the past research and didn't find autism mentioned anywhere. Just tell me what the ratio is-- if you know.

By Oren Evans (not verified) on 05 Sep 2017 #permalink

Maybe it wasn't mentioned because they don't have any.

By Oren Evans (not verified) on 05 Sep 2017 #permalink

2 reasons why this is wrong:

1-Correlation is not causation

Neither is pulling things out of your ass, Dan.

RS: I think Chris is complaining that the ad is sneaking through their adblocker.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 05 Sep 2017 #permalink

" look up the daily body load for Al per kilogram of body weight, using a 5 kg child (kinda small) multiply daily body load by 5. You now have the daily body load for a 5 kg child. Now take amount of the Al adjuvant in vaccine and find the percentage of the Al adjuvant to the daily body load. It will be a very small number.”

No its not. Aluminum from vaccines greatly exceeds exposure in the first 1 or 2 years of life, from milk and natural sources. It is necessary to multiply the ingested amount of Al by about 0.3% because this is the absorption rate. 99.7% of ingested Al is eliminated in the feces and never enters the body.

Why don't you show YOUR calculation? I have already calculated this stuff, and its on the VP website.

Vaccine promoters use the FDAs 2011 study (Mitkus et al) to justify claims of aluminum adjuvant safety. But it has several fatal errors, explained here:

http://vaccinepapers.org/debunking-aluminum-adjuvant-part-2/

By Vaccine Papers (not verified) on 05 Sep 2017 #permalink

This weekend, I was out of town. Bought a domain name (won't disclose it for now). This morning, I lookup my inbox; have received 10 spams regarding SEO (search engine optimization), website building (no thanks, I'm building the Linux distribution who will host the website among other). Send all those spam to google's version of /dev/null; 3 minutes, some of these sc*mbag start to call me on my landline (hidden number, los angeles number, 16 digits number, etc...).

I know I haven't paid for the privacy option but, cold call...(yes, my phone is unplugged...thanks for asking even if you didn't)

Okay,

For Oren and VP, here's yer tutorials on doing searches on pubmed:

First, hop over to ht_tps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/mesh and punch in your favorite term for the moment: autism. you type that into the search bar. MeSH will propose you a page with your search result like this one:

ht_tps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/mesh/?term=autism

Let's select the first one: ht_tps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/mesh/68001321 (Autistic disorder) [1]

[1] == mental comment withheld.

Go down the page to see a hierarchy which include "Child Development Disorders, Pervasive". Click on the link and now, you are at that page:

ht_tps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/mesh/68002659

On the right side, there is a set of buttons with one of them named "Add to search builder". Click on it and while you're at it, open a tab or windows in your web browser and type pubmed.gov.

you will land on this page:

ht_tps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/

in which, at the middle of the page, will include a link to "Clinical Queries": ht_tps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/clinical

Get back to the previous tab (the one for mesh) and in the box, you should have your text '"Child Development Disorders, Pervasive"[Mesh]'. Copy that text and paste it over in the next tab which you used to bring up clinical queries.

You will get a set of results in which, in my opinion, the most important ones should be in the Clinical studies categories:

1-: Etiology
2-: Diagnosis
3-: Therapy
4-: Prognosis
5-: Clinical Prediction guides

with the least amount of publications being the prognosis at 3575 publications (with the filter set to broad in all case, you can use narrow but then, you'll miss out) and the biggest number of publication is the diagnosis category followed closely by the etiology with 11551 and 10746 publications respectively.

That's a good start. It's too many? hop over to systematic reviews of which there are 770 publications. But, you'll miss out.

In the overkill department, you can always check one list of result and for each publication (like this one: ht_tps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28814540), check in the right pane for Similar Articles and click the link named "See all". For this one article, there is 106 similar articles so if you take a category which include 10000 publications (etiology and diagnosis for example), you could be facing a huge number of publications (potentially, 10000 * 90 on average) but a good number of these will be repeat so you can get the lists of related, punch that in a bibliography software and the duplicate will hopefully get removed.

Enjoy :)

Al

Immune activation/cytokine exposure produces sexually dimorphic effects. Brain injury from Al adjuvant is greater in male animals.

And your reference for this is?

By Science Mom (not verified) on 05 Sep 2017 #permalink

“I still haven’t figured out why brain would want something else’s used macrophages when it can whomp up its own shiny new ones.”

Reasons why can be debated and are speculative. Macrophage recruitment into the brain may better protect the brain from invasive infections, thereby providing a survival advantage.

It definitely happens though. Examples:

h[]tp://www.jneurosci.org/content/29/7/2089.long

Mice who have had bile-duct resection? Really, this is what you're trotting out? You apparently can't even understand what it says:

"In our current study, we confirmed our previous finding of a significant ∼8-fold increased recruitment of monocytes into the brains of mice with hepatic inflammation (Fig. 1)."

What part of "microglia are macrophages" did you not understand?

h[]tps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5095060/

Oh, yay, Oncotarget. Did you find this word salad* by just randomly searching for "macrophages" and "nanoparticles"? There's something about preloading macrophages and shooting them into murine tail veins only to see what happens in 12–24 hours that doesn't quite jibe with your inverse dose–response song and dance.

* "National Basin Research Program of China" is a nice touch.

(Will someone please kill that stupid video ad for funeral services that keeps making my cursor jump to the top of the page!)

Only happens to me in Chrome; IE is fine.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 05 Sep 2017 #permalink

My problem is Firefox Moxilla. I found a work around, and it is only of couple of ads. I don't use an ad-blocker because it restricts my access to certain sites (looking at you Forbes).

Also I am amused at the targeted ads I get from my Googles... or using my Android phone. We got a new furnace, and I figured with the forest fires mucking up our local air that the filter will need to be replaced. So I took a phone picture of the present filter so we could order a new one and sent it to dear spouse.

Now I am seeing furnace filter ads on the web. The googles infiltrate all! I now have a work-a-around, which is okay since it is limited to just one particular ad. Though why I am being targeted for funeral services is disturbing. I much prefer furnace filter ads.

Especially since it has been an ashful day. Hubby's car was covered in ash this morning... the sky has been a hazy yellow all day. The sunlight has dimmed to what occurred halfway to the recent solar eclipse (and we only got a bit over 90%). This was good year to get air conditioning in our normally maritime climate.

"There’s something about preloading macrophages and shooting them into murine tail veins only to see what happens in 12–24 hours that doesn’t quite jibe with your inverse dose–response song and dance."

Not so. The inverted dose response of Crepeaux 2017 is a result of local granuloma at the IM injection site. Granuloma prevents dispersal of the Al adjuvant particles.

'Mice who have had bile-duct resection? Really, this is what you’re trotting out?"

The study determined the cytokines responsible for recruiting macrophages into the brain. When microglia release MCP-1, macrophages in the periphery travel into the brain. Other studies show the same thing. Immunology textbooks also mention the function of MCP-1 in recruiting macrophages. MCP stands for MACROPHAGE CHEMOATTRACTANT PROTEIN, which clearly describes its function. Its a protein that attracts macrophages.

The D'Mello paper states:

"...in the setting of peripheral organ-centered inflammation there is a directed recruitment of activated monocytes into the CNS, which occurs as a result of an initial activation of cerebral microglia to produce MCP-1/ CCL2."
"Our findings have significant implications for communication pathways between the periphery and the CNS, not only in liver disease, but also in other inflammatory diseases occurring outside of the CNS."

Recall that human autistics have particularly elevated MCP-1 in the brain, and activated microglia.

By Vaccine Papers (not verified) on 05 Sep 2017 #permalink

@Oren Evans

If we could keep 10,000 infants away from fluorescent light and had no cases of autism I think that would count as evidence. So let’s get qualified researchers to evaluate the 300,000 Amish to determine their autism rate.

Then maybe you should do that by contacting the relevant authorities. I don't think you'll go very far by posting your ideas in a commentaries thread on a blog.

Recall that human autistics have particularly elevated MCP-1 in the brain, and activated microglia.

Oh really? Sloppy work Dan.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 06 Sep 2017 #permalink

MCP stands for MACROPHAGE CHEMOATTRACTANT PROTEIN

No, Dan, it doesn't, shouting notwithstanding.

Macrophage, Monocyte. They mean the same thing in VP's world. For biologists and medical people, maybe not.

Macrophage, Monocyte. They mean the same thing in VP’s world. For biologists and medical people, maybe not.

I guess the monocytes, upon recruitment, are presumed to be given orders for basic training in Fort Granuloma before being deployed. Or something.

"Macrophage, Monocyte. They mean the same thing in VP’s world. For biologists and medical people, maybe not."

I've seen others use the terms interchangeably, which is at best sloppy. Monocytes are blood cells which under some conditions can be recruited across the blood-brain barrier to enter brain tissue (where they differentiate into macrophages). One would have to connect a lot more dots than Mr. Papers has so far attempted, in order to conclude that aluminum adjuvant particles take this route after vaccination and set up shop in the brain causing inflammation and then autism and various other maladies.

It is wondrous indeed that Mr. Papers is happy to ignore and/or dismiss hundreds of thousands of cases annually of documented brain inflammation and death from vaccine-preventable diseases, because of his unproven theory that vaccines cause non-fatal brain inflammation resulting in autism.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 06 Sep 2017 #permalink

This just in--results of a study of the benefits of vaccination published by the WHO--maybe Craig can shout this out at the Vaxxed people.

The short version is that the nonprofit organization Gavi has been working to increase access to vaccines in lower-income countries. Study estimates that by 2020, they will have saved 20 million lives and $350 billion in healthcare costs.

Full version here:
http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/95/9/16-178475/en/

@VP
"Reactions can occur immediately as well, though this is probably less common"

Rubbish, I knew you wouldn't be able to resist making something up and here we have it, four weeks to a month your macrophages take to move any where near the brain, according to you, that's why the effects can't be picked up in studies, according to you.
Now conveniently its immediately as well. These are some hyperspeed macrophages lol.

See people, pure evidence that he's just making bits up as he goes along.

"Aluminum also induces MCP-1, so it may stimulate its own transport into the brain. "

Wut lol, which comes first lol? Why doesn't it just stop where it is, being attracted to itself lol. What about the macrophages without aluminium, why don't they fix the problem lol?

Why should we be worried about aluminium encapsulated in a Macrophage in the first place, it's where its supposed to be lol? Especially the tiny amount in each individual marcophage lol. How does this tiny amount inside an agent that deals with inflammation, cause inflammation? You are too funny. This is your total fantasy.

Like it's been said, Autism starts in the womb, if your version of reality was true, people be dropping like flies from burning nuggets of Aluminium and any other substances like it.

I suppose that Vaccine Papers might also trumpet the news that two NIH researchers received the Lasker Prize this week for work that facilitated the development of (aluminum-adjuvanted) HPV vaccines, only nine years after Harald zur Hausen was awarded the Nobel Prize for discoveries that pointed the way to that life-saving work.

Jake has a post up about Craig Egan. It's mostly content free (suprise), and it's mostly Jake saying that people should 'troll the troll' (where have I heard that?).

The most interesting thing is in the comments (which, as is standard for that site, are completely off topic from the post). It's from Jake himself (which is also fairly standard at that site, I'd guess he makes 35% to 40% of the comments) - "I’m really against denying being “anti-vaccine,” because being pro-vaccine should no longer be seen as a positive."

http://www.autisminvestigated.com/give-vaxxed-troll-craig-egan/#comment…

Also I am amused at the targeted ads I get from my Googles

I seem to get a lot for saris, senior dating sites, and timeshares in the Middle East. I can only speculate what it is about my online history that leads Google to assume I'm a Indian lady d'un certain age looking for a hot weekend in Abu Dhabi.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 06 Sep 2017 #permalink

Shay, that is so amusing.

But, seriously, it is better than funeral services!

"Mr. Papers is happy to ignore and/or dismiss hundreds of thousands of cases annually of documented brain inflammation and death from vaccine-preventable diseases,"

Infectious diseases are dangerous and can cause brain injury. But like I said before, if the diseases were truly more dangerous than the vaccines, we would have seen a decline in neurodevelopmental disorders as vaccine use increased. But the opposite has happened. More vaccines is associated increased neuro disorders.

You are happy to ignore and dismiss the accumulating evidence that vaccination causes brain injury. You could have cited some science showing that vaccines do not do this. Instead, you resort to an "appeal to consequences" type argument. thats a logical fallacy and not persuasive.

"I suppose that Vaccine Papers might also trumpet the news that two NIH researchers received the Lasker Prize this week for work that facilitated the development of (aluminum-adjuvanted) HPV vaccines, only nine years after Harald zur Hausen was awarded the Nobel Prize for discoveries that pointed the way to that life-saving work."

I expect HPV vaccine will eventually be recognized as a public health disaster, causing more harm than it prevents. There is risk it may INCREASE cervical cancer and HPV cancers.

The adjuvant in the HPV vaccine appears to be particularly high risk for causing autoimmune and neurological disorders. Damage from these adverse effects will likely exceed the benefit provided by the vaccine (if any).

A significant problem with the HPV vaccine is that there are over 100 strains of HPV, and the vaccine targets only a few (latest targets 9). Hence, there is a risk of original antigenic sin (or deficits in heterosubtypic immunity, as seen with the flu vaccine) leading to increased susceptibility to non-target strains. In other words, vaccinated people may suffer more severe HPV infection from strains not included in the vaccine. Hence, the vaccine may INCREASE risk of cancers from HPV. The dangers of the non-target strains are not well understood. Widespread vaccine use will cause strain substitution. Will the new circulating strains be any less dangerous?

Efficacy studies to date look only at resistance to the target strains, not cancer outcomes or broader measures of HPV infection (i.e. infections with non-target strains).

By Vaccine Papers (not verified) on 06 Sep 2017 #permalink

Danny Boy" "There is risk it may INCREASE cervical cancer and HPV cancers."

Sure thing... another blatant assertion.

"A significant problem with the HPV vaccine is that there are over 100 strains of HPV, and the vaccine targets only a few (latest targets 9)."

Classic Nirvana Fallacy.

@ Chris

Indeed. I think he get's off by lying in public...

"The adjuvant in the HPV vaccine appears to be particularly high risk for causing autoimmune and neurological disorders."

Har no:

Results of a LONG TERM Safety study of a HPV vaccine:
"Neurological events
The rate ratios were not significantly increased for any of the five analysed neurological outcomes. For two of these outcomes, epilepsy and paralysis, the rate ratios were significantly decreased."

A significant problem with the HPV vaccine is that there are over 100 strains of HPV, and the vaccine targets only a few (latest targets 9).

The main oncogenic ones and some others? Bummer.

@Vaccine Papers:

You are happy to ignore and dismiss the accumulating evidence that vaccination causes brain injury.

What you've posted in support of this claim is not evidence, although it is certainly "accumulating".

A significant problem with the HPV vaccine is that there are over 100 strains of HPV, and the vaccine targets only a few (latest targets 9).

Those 9 strains are responsible for over 90% of HPV caused cervical cancers. You really are clueless, aren't you?

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 07 Sep 2017 #permalink

Julian. Frost: "Those 9 strains are responsible for over 90% of HPV caused cervical cancers. You really are clueless, aren’t you?"

Which is why it is a classic Nirvana Fallacy. If it does work 100% of the time, it is not worthwhile. All the more reason to ignores the whining of Danny Boy.

Stupid typo, leaving out a certain word:

Which is why it is a classic Nirvana Fallacy. If it does not work 100% of the time, it is not worthwhile. All the more reason to ignores the whining of Danny Boy.

Sorry about that.

Those 9 strains are responsible for over 90% of HPV caused cervical cancers. You really are clueless, aren’t you?

I think you misspelled "have been backed into a corner." The "only x strains" routine is pathetically volk material for someone who estimates himself so highly as Mr. Vaper Papers.

Jake has a post up about Craig Egan. It’s mostly content free (suprise), and it’s mostly Jake saying that people should ‘troll the troll’ (where have I heard that?).

I am sooo tempted to troll, but discretion wins out.

A significant problem with the HPV vaccine is that there are over 100 strains of HPV, and the vaccine targets only a few (latest targets 9).

I am really hoping Dan doesn't take that attitude with everything else he does. There could be carnage out there.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 08 Sep 2017 #permalink

For some diversion:
from Alex Jones, quoted at Salon:

“What they’re already doing for about 20 years is, they have an anti-stress vaccine they give the troops that’s really a nanotech virus that goes in and eats certain parts of the brain.”

All we want to do is eat your brains
We're not unreasonable, I mean, no one's gonna eat your eyes

A significant problem with the HPV vaccine Kevlar vestis that there are over 100 strains of HPV targets on the human body, and the vaccine targets vest protects only a few

Let's strip every cop and combat soldier of their vests, shall we? Clearly they don't work.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 10 Sep 2017 #permalink

Hence, the vaccine may INCREASE risk of cancers from HPV.

Sure thing, Dan. How's that LENR patent working out?