In which I agree with Tom DeLay

Is the rating scale objective or subjective? What is the unit of suprstitiousness? Jeebus? MiliJeebus? KiloJeebus?

He went on to say that America treats Christianity like a "second-rate superstition."

Actually, bug-killer Tom is wrong there, too. Whether you think christianity IS a "second-rate superstition", it's NOT treated as such. So he's another fundie whining about persecution. Yawn.

I daresay he'd even be able to work on writing it up from a jail cell.

Hey, a lot of great political literature got written in jail, like Mein Kampf. But who would be his Rudolf Hess?

"second rate superstition" How does one go about rating superstitions? I mean, since the obvious criterion -- whether or not something is real -- is out the door. So on what scale would you gage the quality of a superstition?

Ah, that'll teach me to read the comments first. coturnix made my point already.

I wondered about that classification system, too. What would be a first rate superstition? Worshipping the sun? Belief in Santa Claus? Polytheism?

I think the superstition ratings are a measure of quality, not severity. It works similary to the USDA grades of beef:

Prime == first-rate == use of "body english" while bowling or shooting pool
Choice == second-rate == Christianity, animism, belief in ghosts/UFOs
Select == third-rate == Scientology, Wicca, belief in Doug Henning

Well obviously the more gifts you get as a result of the superstition, the better the rating.

Big meals with turkey and lots of stuffing and mashed potatoes help too.

PZ Myers wrote:

What distinguishes a second-rate from a first-rate superstition?

About a hundred years....

I daresay he'd even be able to work on writing it up from a jail cell.

A few of us Texans hope he gets to try it there - one in Huntsville would be nice, though unlikely.

craig, so what you're saying is that L-tryptophan induced stupors are a mark of a quality superstition? Hmm... I knew drugs had to come in to it somehow.

I think Pastafarianism is a first rate superstition, since it makes verifiable predictions about piracy and global warming.

Kapitano's Superstition Typology:

First Rate - Beliefs that could kill you, or someone else, if you put them into practice
*Chelation for mercury vaccine poisoning
*Recreating birth trauma as psychotherapy
*Firewalking to gain self actuation
*Starvation to gain enligtenment
*Breatharianism

Second Rate - Beliefs that make life awkward or unpleasant, but don't place it in danger
*Eating meat on fridays makes god hate you
*Having a foreskin makes god even angrier
*Praying at mecca five times a day makes you holy
*Wearing a tin foil hat protects you from mind control
*The Atkins diet

Third Rate - Beliefs that just make you look silly
*Elvis is alive
*Vapor trails and water floridation are a CIA plot
*Smoking marijuana leads to heroin addiction
*Eve came from Adam's rib
*Vitamin C wards off the cold virus

tng, don't forget chocolate. Mmmm, chocolate bunnies!

Hah, hah! Peeps too. Delicious multi-colored marshmallowy demon spawn.

It's all truthiness. How real does it feel?

I like Kapitono's scale. I think there's room for non-integer values, and the scale ought to be adjusted to be logarithmic, since a first-rate superstition is obviously many orders of magnitude worse than a second rate. Also, we should note that Christianity's move from First Rate (cf. Crusades) to a second rate superstition is to be applauded.

Humor aside, it's worth noting that DeLay's remarks illustrate the reactionary nature of Evangelical Christianity. Really, since Christianity is no longer dominant (don't pretend it is, Brokeback Mountain showed in theaters across the country), it's taken on the airs and ethics of a persecuted subculture. There's no war on Christianity, except in the minds of those who see their subculture losing out.

Oh, and Eve came from the bacculum, not the rib. True fact!

"Oh, and Eve came from the bacculum, not the rib. True fact!"

Well if that's true, then it's just totally unfair that a certain women blamed me for not being able to perform a certain task after one particular night of too much alcohol, dammit!

we should make a wiki oiut of this, with and attendant search feature you can use to find where your personal superstition falls on the scale.

that makes it so likely to get various superstition-subscribers worked up to the point of unconsciousness that it seems almost a requirement. I'm nominating Kapitono's data as a starting point.

my fave superstition? Hat on the bed.

@ craig:

I'm only half joking, some have suggested that "rib" was a sanitization of bacculum. If true (the translation, not the story), it would provide a theological explanation of the patriarchy, with the type of humiliation you mention featuring strongly. Since men and women have the same number of ribs (survey some undergrads on this one, you'll be surprised how many think we don't), the bacculum is the fallback, ad hoc revision.

Second-rate superstitions are cheaper to mail.

+++

Kapitano's scale is good. It reminds me of the 4 levels of delusion in the character-creation section of the GURPS basic set (3rd edition, revised) rulebook.

To paraphrase: Delusions count as disadvantages, and are therefore worth points you can spend on other things during character creation. For example, if you take enough points in disadvantages, your character could have higher strength, or more money.
One delusion - "Purple things are alive", 4 levels of effect
1 point (quirk) - Smile at and occasionally pet purple things
5 points (minor) - Don't talk about secret things if purple things are in the room
10 points (major) - Organise protests and petition the government for Fair Treatment for purple things
15 points (severe) - Attack any and all purple things on sight.

We could easily adopt this scale, or a logarithmic scale as suggested above, for widespread, real-world delusions.

For example "Everyone alive today will go to one of two possible afterlives upon death. One afterlife is good, the other bad"
Quirk: I'll go to church and listen to the boring sermons almost every week, just in case.
Minor: I'll go to church absolutely every week, and insist my children and other close relatives do the same. Discussions with non-believers will centre on attempts to convince them to join me in the good afterlife
Major: I'll go to church at least twice a week, and loudly and publicly denounce any person I meet who does not do the same. Conversations with non-believers consist entirely of angry attacks on their refusal to face my "reality"
Severe: Jack Chick.

I like where this thread is going. Why stop at 3 levels?
Based on Kapitano's scale, 4th-rate superstitions would be things that don't make you look silly, don't hurt, and have very low opportunity costs:

But I can't think of any such examples right now.

>Based on Kapitano's scale, 4th-rate superstitions would be >things that don't make you look silly, don't hurt, and have >very low opportunity costs:

>But I can't think of any such examples right now.

Knocking on wood when you discuss bad things? Not walking under ladders? Not opening umbrellas indoors? Crossing your fingers when the Red Sox are up to bat?

You're both wrong, though. America treats Christianity as a respectable consensus view held by a majority of citizens. At its most generous, it treats atheism as an eccentric contrarian view. Not being a Christian in the US is like not being a member of the Communist party in China. You can be successful up to a point, but you're going to be blocked from certain career paths, particularly political ones.

It strikes me that both DeLay and PZ are engaging in some magical thinking here. DeLay wants to believe he's a martyr rather than a beneficiary of the political affirmative action program that bolsters those who profess strong faith independent of any other qualifications. PZ believes so strongly (and with understandable reason) that Christianity is a superstition, that he occasionally projects his own rationality onto America as whole.

Actually, the most remarkable thing I will say about the quote from DeLay is that he just blamed "America" for his troubles. I'd have to see the original quote to be sure, but I think the best response is to ask: Why does Tom DeLay hate America?

Nah, look at the categories I assigned: it's humor. I know the US gives Christianity far more respect than it deserves.

It does strike me that there are degrees of superstition, having mostly to do with how OBVIOUSLY false they are. Like Scientology and Mormonism everyone just watched being made up on the spot. "Look, there's Joseph Smith [L. Ron Hubbard]." "Oh yeah? What's he up to?" "Oh, he's making up a religion. Crazy old Joseph/L. Ron." But if something was made up long enough ago (although the exact same processes for creating a new religion were undoubtedly in play), the evidence for it's having been made up might not be around any more. Once Constantine coerced the region into converting to Christianity, the "Paul was a lying sack of shit" graffiti probably got whitewashed over. Emo Phillips put the whole situation succinctly: "I wish I would have been born into a Mormon family or one with another one of those more obviously wrong religions." While from one point of view, all religions are obviously false, it would be a mistake to claim that they are EQUALLY obviously false. The shroud of time works some serious mojo. If only we had a fossil Jesus we could put on display. That would surely end this nonsense once and for all.

Or, Why does Tom DeLay hate Thomas Jefferson?

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

believes so strongly (and with understandable reason) that Christianity is a superstition,

It's not a belief, even if you believe it's tenets it's obviously so.

Christianity is a first-rate superstition, and in fact on a continuous scale it ranks at the top.

While from one point of view, all religions are obviously false, it would be a mistake to claim that they are EQUALLY obviously false.

A favorite saying of my college roommate: "All religions are equally invalid."

Actually, it's rather morbid kind of humour...

second rate supersition ?!?!

Well, and where on the supersition scale are about ten thousand nukes controlled by doom cultists ? ( which may be actually going to happen, if those chimeras between taliban, khmer rouge and peoples temple take over united states )

If only we had a fossil Jesus we could put on display. That would surely end this nonsense once and for all.

Alas, there can be no fossil Jesus. Everyone knows Jesus is a zombie, who to this day walks the earth devouring brains.

While from one point of view, all religions are obviously false, it would be a mistake to claim that they are EQUALLY obviously false.

Why limit discussion of nutty beliefs to religion? Even scientists make mistakes, and most beliefs about politics, economics, and morality are hardly science.

Even more complicated: the level of falsehood in different belief systems differs greatly, but so does the type of falsehood. I think there's a big difference between beliefs which contradict evidence, beliefs which are just complex and unsupported by evidence, and beliefs which contradict most morality but which are not "false" in an objective sense.

Thanks aiabx

"Knocking on wood when you discuss bad things? Not walking under ladders? Not opening umbrellas indoors? Crossing your fingers when the Red Sox are up to bat?"

Those probably qualify, though the two in the middle probably have safety justifications, like the other ideas I had earlier but didn't write down (like always engaging the parking brake in a car at the end of journey, regardless of hill slope or lack thereof). If there's some miniscule benefit to a habit, and almost no cost, does it count as a superstition?

I'm probably thinking about this too hard. Also, are you crossing your fingers because you like or dislike the Red Socks?

"If only we had a fossil Jesus we could put on display. That would surely end this nonsense once and for all."

Surely not, I demand to see the transitional fossils. Where is that mother of all mothers, or whatever christians call her?

PS. Google says the boner you wish you had is spelled "baculum". DS

well, judging from the spontaneous verbal effluent from that pintsized occupant of the Presidential chair (at least if Oliphant appeals to you), Republicans don't speak so good.

so, Mr DeLay may have meant "second rate and a superstition" when he said "second rate superstition". coherent sentences are so hard to form when being emotional, don't ya know.

what's reassuring is that these rightish politicos and their ilk haven't the calling among the populi that they pretend to. at least that's what retrospective data suggests, particular for the followers of Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Hannity, and on. basically, they preach to a self-selected and limited audience with similar sympathies. they are "shock jocks" and garner notice in the wider population through their extreme antics. they might, at crucial times, motivate their congregations to go out and stump for a Bush or a Schiavo. but there's also evidence the congregations are becoming disillusioned, feeling jilted, or feeling confused.

i hunch that BushCo's election successes will be seen historically as carefully calculated optimizations of how to win a Presidency and a Congress with the least costly -- in terms of expenditures -- investment in advertising and movements, helped by incessant gerrymandering (by both parties). whether the damage BushCo do to government and country meanwhile is irreversible or not remains to be seen. they are sure doing a job in the case law on First Amendment rights.

BTW, an anecdote: my son encountered a case of two students arguing for creationism instead of evolution in science classes during an AP American History lecture today, at high school level. the subject? the Scopes Trial.