Saudi Arabia is one screwed up, vile little backwater of a barbarous craphole. You have to read the case of Fawza Falih.
She has been condemned to death. By beheading.
She has been beaten to the point of hospitalization during her incarceration.
The authorities have a signed confession, which she has not had read to her.
She didn't read what she signed, either, because she's illiterate.
She and her representatives were not allowed to attend much of the trial.
And the crime for which she is to be executed? Witchcraft. She is accused of casting a spell that caused a man to become impotent, and threatening to cause people to be possessed by dogs.
Apparently, the spells must have worked all too well, since all the men of Saudi Arabia are now cowardly eunuchs with the souls of craven mongrels. At least, that's the only explanation I can see for their uncivilized behavior.
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Butbutbut, they're our allies in the war on terra! They're supposed to be helping spread democracy in the region.
(Though how a theocratic monarchist dictatorship is supposed to spread democracy has not been thoroughly explained.)
Anyhow, that's all due to atheism and evolution, isn't it? Surely bringing ID into Saudi Arabia would prevent such atrocities by Big Science.
Oh, wait, it's Big Science that even IDists turn to whenever they're accused of crimes, and oddly they don't want supernatural evidence brought against them. Um, well, is it possible that oppression comes from religion (I didn't say from all religion), liberation, more often than not, from science?
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
The fact that this sort of thing still happens in the 21st century shows just how far we have to go.
But they are the good guys, I mean only a simple majoraty of the 9-11 hijakers where not from Saudi Arabia. Every time someone starts to talk about the U.S. being a "Christian Nation" I think how cool it would be if our country was just like Saudi Arabia.
Teh logic ain't der. Time for another exorcist...
I thought the old adage was you can't pick your relatives? How did they become our friends in the war on terror again?
This is so stupid. And it's like there's nothing that can be done, anyway. All I ever hear is how Saudi Arabia is our ally and one of the "decent countries," but, uh.. it sure doesn't sound like it.
You're right. This IS unbelievable. And very sickening.
If I didn't know first hand how vicious and evil some humans can be, I think I might wonder if something like this story wasn't made up. But then again, if I'd read something like this in a work of fiction I might well think it was too far fetched to be realistic.
From the linked BBC article: "Human Rights Watch says the trial failed to meet the safeguards in the Saudi justice system."
Saudia Arabia has safeguards? They have a justice system?
That's news to me.
I remember a while back when Saudi Arabia was running a fricking AD CAMPAIGN in the US to try to help their public image after all that stuff about the number of 9/11 hijackers that came from there came out. These commercials were unreal, they were actually spewing righteous indignation that we might cast aspersions in their great country.
I am absolutely disgusted at how our country will suck up to a country that is so completely objectionable EXCEPT they have oil. And suddenly they're our buddies, we'll give them cutting edge military hardware and excuse their countless faults because they're supposed to be our buddies.
This is just par for the course for the Saudis! You can read more about Saudi Arabia's perverse justice system in "Part 2" here:
www.asecondlookatthesaudis.com
Using charges of "witchcraft," "apostasy" or "blasphemy," all of which are capital offenses under Saudi Arabia's version of Islamic law, are common tools for persecuting religious minorities in the Kingdom (especially Shia and Sufi Muslims), and for settling contract disputes with foreign workers.
The entire Saudi "Justice System" is a grotesque abomination, although, unfortunately, that is the least of our problems with the Saudis.
doesn't surprise me. Hell if some of my neighbors had their way the sme thing would be happening here in the us
It is the 21st century and we still have representatives of the state prosecuting people for witchcraft?
Yeah, but think about this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s24Fxiwfc5Y&feature=related
And we buy our oil from these demented barbarians and savages? I wonder how much of my gas money paid for this woman's incarceration?
Fuck that. I think it's time to start walking.
Their wholly fictitious Allah condemns the wholly fictitious crime of witchcraft. Not a big surprise, I guess. I mean, if you're going to believe one bullshit thing, you may as well believe anything that strikes your fancy.
And how much you wanna bet Bush and his cronies aren't even a tad bit concerned?
To be fair, this are all allegations on PZ's part ;)
Off-topic:
I started reading this type of blogs a couple of weeks ago and can't get enough of them. Like the book, I felt like a candle in the dark. Now I know there are a bunch of other candles out there. Can you guys name me a few books to get me deeper into this? Thanks.
Not to worry. It's what Allah would want. Besides, he's just taking his cues from Yahweh.
Sh!fty:
For evolution, Dawkin's Ancestor's Tale.
For delusional religion, Dawkin's The God Delusion.
Tell me again why the Shrub invaded Iraq and not Saudi Arabia?
Saudi Arabia:
1. repressive regime. check.
2. 9/11. check.
3. No weapons of Mass Destruction. check.
The only difference I can see between Saudi Arabia and Saddam Hussein's Iraq is Aramco.
"...very small rocks...."!
I know. Why don't we all stop buying petrol in protest until our respective Governments tell these f**kers where to go?
Any takers?
No?
Face it - these barbarians are getting away with this because we let them.
Got to love that 'ole time religion!
OT:
@17
I depends on what aspect you are interested in. Biology, science, evidence-based reasoning, etc.
The current crop of books is a good place to start, especially the God Delusion. Also, How to Think About Weird Things, The Psychology of Judgement and Decision Making, The Demon Haunted World, Flim Flam (a bit dated but still interesting), God is Not Great, Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science (old but good).
"the religious police who detained her"
As bad as thought police.
So.... can't they behead, or at least stone, Saudi King Whichever for holding George Bush's hand like a lovesick schoolgirl?
Although I'd like to see him spared, just as he spared that rape victim from being lashed as her punishment for being raped. Hey, progress is progress.
BRB - the cauldron's boiling over.
My grandfather worked in Saudi in the 50s. He was going to move his family there until he saw a public execution.
The Muslim nations are Earth's Mordor. My greatest hope is that we can solve the Christian Problem in the US and thus gain the moral authority to overcome Islam.
When I speak of the Christian Problem in the US, people compare it to talk of the Jewish Problem in Nazi Germany. The Nazis were either severly mistaken or simply exploiting anti-Semitism to there own ends. There was no Jewish Problem in 1930s Germany,;But there is a Christian Problem in the US today. Huckabee says the the Constitution should be amemded to conform with Biblical principles. Falwell and Robertson gave comfort to our enemies by saying that we deserved 9/11for our sinfulness.Our president says a Magic Man in the Sky told him to attack Iraq (the most secular of Muslim natios) and that's good enough for the fundies.
.American fundamentalist Christians are not merely trying to take over our nation, they are committed the destruction of the whole world. They have a program in place to acquire large numbers of nuclear weapons. What's all that mess at the USAF Academy about. The fundies want The Bomb and they'll get it soon..
BUT SHE TURNED ME INTO A NEWT!
"all the men of Saudi Arabia are now cowardly eunuchs with the souls of craven mongrels"
I understand PZ's style, but it's more than worth noting that Saudi Arabia isn't a democracy, so the average Saudi male is nearly as powerless as the women on this issue (not to mentioned brainwashed in a tightly-controlled non-democracy).
I think PZ's way off the mark. Send the arrows where they're deserved.
Bacopa:
I agree with just about everything you said, except I think the fundies will play politics to try to achieve their end. I can't see them getting the Bomb.
Unsurprising.
All fundamentalist religion shares a basis to some not-insignificant extent in the fear and punishment of the Scary Vagina.
Apparently, the spells must have worked all too well, since all the men of Saudi Arabia are now cowardly eunuchs with the souls of craven mongrels. At least, that's the only explanation I can see for their uncivilized behavior.
I thought it was simple hatred of women.
Brian @#29: The operative word is 'nearly'. It was a poor, powerless man, after all, whose claim of impotence via witchcraft has kicked off this whole chain of events that resulted in a woman being imprisoned, beaten, persecuted, and sentenced to death by beheading. However little power he might have in this regime, it is at least a thousand times greater than that of the poor woman in question.
but this can't be true. I mean, they're our best friends and everything. If this was really true, we'd have bombed the crap out of them by now so as to spread freedom(TM).
http://tinyurl.com/25fvx6
We all must try to keep the news of this away from Michael Mukasey. Since he does not know if waterboarding is not torture, I am sure he would have a hard time telling if this unfortunate woman was railroaded.
I read (on some other blog I can't remember at the moment) that these sort of things can happen because the Saudi king has to kowtow to the religious fundie extremists who 'really' rule the land. As long as they can do whatever they please, they'll turn a blind eye to his taking US money. At least he is smart enough to take a bribe.
All this makes me wonder if it isn't time for a little covert action. A little CIA-sponsored fundie-hunting to free our poor little dictator friend from the clutches of the evil islamofascists. It would be for the common good. It might even be tax-deductable. :)
And the ad at the top of the page is Faiths United for Sustainable Energy. We need something other than oil, and with this latest news it seems like a good time to start.
Danio #39: I agree the average Saudi male is better off than the average Saudi female, but that average is male is also "nearly" as powerless. Blaming the average person is wrong in the Saudi system. PZ's sentence reads like something I might see from a right winger - he's going after the wrong people.
And who knows what the average Saudi male thinks about this issue anyway, and whether the average Saudi female thinks differently about witchcraft?
PZ,
Please do not say such awful things about dogs. After all they may be our coevolutionists.
Guys, you're missing the big picture.
She threatened that she would cause people to be possessed by dogs.
Christ almighty, but how can it get any worse than that? The Arabs just don't want to see their people licking their own balls. Sounds reasonable to me!
(Seriously, the day the oil runs out--and when these kooks can go back to herding goats--can't come fast enough).
Re Brian Schmidt
Oh dear, oh dear . . .
Right wing = evil
Left wing = good
Have you potty-trained yet?
Ayan Hirsi was spot on.
There are a variety of views in any country. A good way to get a sense of that is by checking out blogs by Saudis.
Saudi Jeans blog
http://saudijeans.org/
Honestly, if this wasn't so tragic, the backwardness of it all would be hilarious. Saudi Arabia is one of the most economically significant nations in the world, and they scream like Monty Python medieval peasants about "witchcraft". It's almost like a lost world.
"During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. The Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church, after doing its duty in but a lazy and indolent way for 800 years, gathered up its halters, thumbscrews, and firebrands, and set about its holy work in earnest. She worked hard at it night and day during nine
centuries and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood. Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry." [Mark Twain, "Europe and Elsewhere"]
I think I heard a sarcastic chuckle from Mr. Clemens.
Why couldn't Allah and his minions just cancel the witchcraft spells?
They are admitting that some illiterate woman is mightier than god and his terrorists servants on earth? Sounds like blashemy and heresy to me.
Someone ought to have them stoned to death for failing in the duties of a representative of Allah.
Recall that Saudi Arabia was going to crucify two British nurses in '97 after they were railroaded for murder.
But let's be very careful to separate a sociopolitical order - namely, a corrupt monarchy in a tense alliance with radical Islamists (even more so since the 1979 mosque siege) - from a people.
The impotence angle made me think of this phenomenon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penis_panic
Everyone is overlooking something rather obvious: there's no way a group of strong, armed men could force an illiterate badly beaten, terrified woman to apply her fingerprint to a piece of paper. Why they would have to trick her into thinking she was signing her release papers, or take her arm, press it onto an inkpad and then onto the confession - that could never happen.
Why couldn't Allah and his minions just cancel the witchcraft spells?
They are admitting that some illiterate woman is mightier than god and his terrorists servants on earth? Sounds like blashemy and heresy to me.
Someone ought to have them stoned to death for failing in the duties of a representative of Allah.
Silly atheist, everyone knows Allah works in "mysterious ways".
Bacopa,
I'm sorry I'm going to have to react to your post, but it just symbolizes what I think is a hopelessly naive and paranoid American-centric understanding of the world we live in.
Have you ever lived in any of these muslim countries that you seem to know so well as to compare to Mordor ?
And then, America needs a moral authority to overcome Islam ? What is that for nonsense ?
These countries will get rid of their religious carcan in the same way we did in the West, by themselves. The best we can do is provide safeheavens for those who seek political asylum, denounce human rights violations, and in some extreme cases impose economic sanctions. BTW, that secularization process had already started in many muslim nations until Mr Bush changed all that with his visions of "America is going to save the world and export freedom and democracy with its military might".
And then, "There was no Jewish Problem in 1930s Germany,;But there is a Christian Problem in the US today."
I'm just trying to understand what this means, but sorry, I can't.
Then, as much as I dislike Huckabee and Bush, you are just making things up as they have never said what you wrote. Why these gross exagerations, when the facts are sufficient ?
And I'll stop here with the rest of the fabulations.
PZ made a serious post about a serious problem. Fabulations are not necessary.
Buy a plane ticket and travel the world, maybe you'll learn something.
We have the same kind of people here. Who want to set up the same kind of justice system.
They're called Dominionists and there's a lot of them: There's the Chalcadon Foundation, Coral Ridge Ministries has many dominionists within its power structure, including George Grant, the former Executive Director, Randall Terry of Operation Rescue, Focus on the Family (Dobson) and The Heritage Foundation. And a TON MORE.
Even Huckabee has made some dominionist claims and some of us are worried that he's a closet dominionist. Kind of like the kind of people that stealth their ways into school boards.
So, yeah, the Saudi's are pretty fucked-up as a country. And while I'm sure that many of them would love to be somewhere else or would love a different, more humane, system, the fact is they're in a pretty screwed and their justice system is a barbaric travesty.
" Saudi Arabia is one of the most economically significant nations in the world, and they scream like Monty Python medieval peasants about "witchcraft". "
To be fair, so does China. They've just banned people from distributing video featuring ghosts, witchcraft or anything supernatural for the purposes of "terror".
But just don't go through Dubai, where you will get a mandiory minimum 4 jail sentance for having 3 poppy seeds from a breadroll at Heathrow or.003 grams of pot stuck to the bottom of your shoe.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7234786.stm
Call me a pessimist, but there's no telling how religion will evolve in Saudi Arabia. I wouldn't assume secularization based on Western models, and I do wonder how that country will differ a century from now. I wonder the same for the U.S.
There's this idea of progress as an assured, linear event. Pessimists like me have their doubts.
O devout practitioners, no need to worry. These Saudis will be visited by an onslaught of ectoplasmic 3 headed dogs in the next few weeks. I've discussed it with Cerberus and he's game...and hungry.
There have been several attempts by the residents of Saudi Arabia to overthrow their monarchy. None of these attempts have succeeded in large part because the US provides massive direct and indirect support--weapons, intelligence, political cover--to the Saudi royal family. Saudi Arabia isn't going to change as long as the monarchy has American protection.
Watch it, Myers! You is talking bad about one of our big allies in the War On Terror. And you know the next attack is "inevitable"! So them Saudis have gotta help us out. We can't afford to go messin' with their way-o'-life!
I like to think that the majority of Muslims, like the majority of Christians or the majority of people anywhere, are moderate. Unfortunately, the picture of Islam as reported by the Western media is somewhat different. I am hoping that some of those moderate Muslims will step forward and condemn what has happened in Saudi Arabia and, if it happens, I am hoping that our media will report it. What is the chance of either of those things happening, I wonder?
Neg @ #50, while I agree that some of Bacopa's assertions are a little murky, I'm not sure what you're driving at with respect to his/her representation of comments by Huckabee and Bush.
These are the direct quotes to which Bacopa is referring:
(MIKE HUCKABEE): "I have opponents in this race who do not want to change the Constitution. But I believe it's a lot easier to change the Constitution than it would be to change the word of the living God. And that's what we need to do, to amend the Constitution so it's in God standards rather than try to change God's standards so it lines up with some contemporary view of how we treat each other and how we treat the family."
(GWB): "I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.' And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,' and I did."
Yes, this is off topic, and perhaps detracts from the admittedly serious content of PZ's post, but on what is your charge of 'fabulation' based?
Speaking as one of the few commenters here who has actually been stationed in Saudi Arabia (to the tune of approximately 14 months), I think I can say with a good deal of authority that everything PZ has said of Saudis is dead-on accurate: That country's religious police (the mutaween) are the very examples the Taliban modeled themselves after. They are all-powerful and are accompanied by secular law enforcement to help enforce Islamic law. They will beat and arrest anybody they desire to if they feel the wrong-doer has violated some vague dictate of the Qu'ran, and heaven forbid you be a) foreign, b) non-Muslim, c) female.
As for those that say Saudi Arabia is not a true democracy and that the men are powerless to initiate a change, BULLSHIT. The men don't change the laws, not because they can't but because they don't want to. The status quo is too good for them: Saudi Arabia is one of the largest welfare states in the world, with each family sharing thousands of dollars in oil profits each month (unless you are a third country national [TCN], in which case you are treated as slightly better than a slave but worse than an indentured servant). The men spend their days sitting on their asses smoking and drinking tea while they hire foreigners to do their dirty work - the only Saudi males in their military are pilots in their air force (and shitty pilots at that); the grunt work is done by Egyptians, Jordanians, or Americans (and the Americans are the best bargain of all - after all, the US government is paying their salaries).
If there was one thing that redeemed that miserable shithole, I never found it in all the months I was there (unless you count cheap gold - bling central).
It was Western technology that dicovered and produced their
oil, and the same that developed their economy into a good
standard of living in that sandy waste of a backwater
craphole. But it is still religion that maintains that
country as a fanatical shithole. If it wasn't for the oil
discovered by our science theyn would still be eating
camel shit and checking their drawers for signs of their
freaking god.
Most oil used in the US is produced in the US. Most imported oil used in the US comes from Mexico and Canada. Most of the rest comes from South America and Nigeria.
Jus' sayin'.
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4032
#3 said it all.
Regarding oil.
With some foresight and will, homes businesses transportation, just about anything can or could be run on different forms of alternative energy,
Except a military.
Shorter Brian Schmidt: But what about all those Saudi men who've been beheaded for casting spells and rendering women frigid?
willo the wisp #62.
It's not about using it. It's about controling it's flow and price.
The US cannot have Iran, China or the Soviets doing that.
He who rocks the cradle,
He who turns the spiggot.
I'm glad they finally found the reason that they all behave with the morals, intellect, and pack mentality of mongrel dogs. Now maybe they'll come to their senses and join the rest of us in the 21st century. To think, the problem was that simple all along. What will their Masters do, now that the spell appears about to be broken? How will they adjust to not living like curs on Alpha-master's tight leash? I can't wait to see how this execution changes things.
Stupid dicks!
We have a lot of Christofascist Taliban wannabees in the USA. The Dominionist/Reconstructions fascists. They differ from Moslem fundamentalists by.....well not much at all. This would be Huckabee, Dobson, Robertson, Coral Ridge, Falwell and a plethora of lesser demons who seek to overthrow the US goverenment, set up a theocracy, and head on back to the Dark Ages.
They own Texas, Bush, and controlled the congress up until 2006.
They are easy to identify, they say just that often. Below is an old post of mine documenting them. They are hiding in plain sight.
Sounds like they're staggering into the 14th century, all right. And it gives us something to look forward to if the Bible-thumpers actually establish a theocracy and turn the U.S. back to the Dark Ages.
In significantly less serious but still in the 'Saudis Do the Craziest Things' segment:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/02/12/saudi.valentine/?iref=hpm…
Apparently, there's no Valentines Day out there either. Actually, maybe they have got something right for a change.
Sir Craig (#60):
Similarities between the Muttwa and Taliban aren't surprising. Saudi Arabia provided (provides?) a lot of money and backing to the Taliban. Organizations tend to replicate the ideologies of their immediate funding sources.
Oil is a commodity sold on the world market to the highest bidder. We get oil from those sources closest to us.
Perhaps more relevant is just who helps -- in expertise, equipment, and services -- the Saudis find and pump their oil.
The Muslim nations are Earth's Mordor. My greatest hope is that we can solve the Christian Problem in the US and thus gain the moral authority to overcome Islam.
...
I'm glad they finally found the reason that they all behave with the morals, intellect, and pack mentality of mongrel dogs.
Before getting all "Muslims are evil stupid dogs and should be eliminated" (or "extirpated", as Hitchens puts it), do keep in mind that the victim here, for whom we rightly have sympathy, is an illiterate Muslim who, for all we know, cried with joy on 9/11 when she learned that a blow had been struck against the Great Satan that enables the corrupt government that oppresses her -- Osama bin Laden and the Saudi monarchy are, after all, enemies.
#17 Shifty...like most of us, you have stumbled upon the promised land...not of milk and honey but of cephalopods and tigerfish. From here the education begins for all of us. Wonderful isn't it?
PZ Myers is our great catalyst, blogging on our changing and not changing perceptions of the world as we learn and evolve day-to-day.
Other notables go by the name "The Four Horsemen" and are all worth your careful consideration.
They are:
-Richard Dawkins,(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dawkins),
-Daniel Dennett (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Dennett),
-Sam Harris,
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Harris_%28author%29)
and finally;
-Christopher Hitchens, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_hitchens)
Welcome and Good luck!
I like to think that the majority of Muslims, like the majority of Christians or the majority of people anywhere, are moderate.
I refuse to consider anyone who believes a bunch of baloney about Allah or God to be a moderate.
They are all extremist nuts. No "get out of extremist nut camp free" card for all the nice Christians who look like they are minding their own business.
"Most oil used in the US is produced in the US. Most imported oil used in the US comes from Mexico and Canada. Most of the rest comes from South America and Nigeria."
The US produced 150 mill barrels in Nov 2007. We imported 450 million barrels.
we imported more from Saudia Arabia than Mexico.
"The top sources of US crude oil imports for November were Canada (1.919 million barrels per day), Saudi Arabia (1.530 million barrels per day), Mexico (1.484 million barrels per day), Nigeria (1.245 million barrels per day), and Venezuela (1.227 million barrels per day). "
easy to find this information. suprised you would post nonsense. Even the link you provided says: "More than a third of our petroleum, about 37% of our total usage, is produced domestically.."
and you misread this line: "Most of our petroleum imports come from non-OPEC countries; 56% of it, in fact. Of that 56%, the majority is from Canada and Mexico"
Saudi Arabia is the second largest exporter of oil to US after Canada. Mexico is third
Ref
She'd still be a victim here, twice over. For all I know, you did the same (rejoiced at 9/11) and for all I know she didn't - I still don't want you dead. What I am pretty confident about, is that she isn't a witch and she didn't make anyone impotent so she is not guilty of the charges brought against her.
"Saudi Arabia is one screwed up, vile little backwater of a barbarous craphole."
And these are our allies in the GWOT? With friends like this, ...
And just think how screwed up they will be when their oil is gone and their geopolitical significance will have to be based on the fact that they have lots & lots of sand.
Don't be surprised if the US supplies them with nukes to counteract either a hypothetical or real Iranian nuclear arms program.
"We have a lot of Christofascist Taliban wannabees in the USA. The Dominionist/Reconstructions fascists. They differ from Moslem fundamentalists by.....well not much at all. "
There is one key difference--most of them are unwilling to sacrifice their lives for a cause. There are the occasional nut jobs, but most Christian extremists are chicken hawks. Sacrifice is for somebody else--they'll wave the flag/cross/bible, but somebody else needs to do the dying. Martyrdom is NOT what they're into, that's why they invented Rapture, Inc.
She'd still be a victim here, twice over.
Like I said, we rightly have sympathy for her. My whole point, with which you appear to agree, is that we shouldn't want people dead just because they are Muslims (or for any other reason, but let's start there).
What I am pretty confident about, is that she isn't a witch and she didn't make anyone impotent so she is not guilty of the charges brought against her.
Even talking about guilt or innocence of a charge of witchcraft is absurd; the bringing of such charges in the first place is abominable.
Brian #29,
but nor were the Philippines under Marcos, Indonesia under Soeharto, Chile under Pinochet, Romania under the Caecescus, India under the British, or a lot of other potentially cheering examples of regime change.
(This is an uncharacteristically glass-half-full kind of post)
There is one key difference--most of them are unwilling to sacrifice their lives for a cause.
Most Muslim fundamentalists are not willing to sacrifice themselves for a cause either.
I refuse to consider anyone who believes a bunch of baloney about Allah or God to be a moderate.
They are all extremist nuts.
On the contrary, it is one who makes such a radical claim who is an extremist nut.
Further details available at
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/02/14/saudia18051.htm
The letter to the King has more details, including the violations of Saudi law.
Bacopa I agree w/ negentropyeater...
actually I have lived in those countries and found them to be most the modern, highly moral and upright citizens of the islamic world this side of the 5th century. Beside fucking boys, goats, each other, stealing everything not tied down or guarded, spitting on those they dislike, cheating people (infidels) as a duty from Awfulha and any other reprehensible act, they are wonderful humans and desreve the repsect of our satan lead world. They afterall know the will of god don't they? How else do you explain beheadings, punishing the victims and belief in withcraft?
We are the ones that need to change in relation to them? Only in that they deserve what the Sodomizer Hisanus got.
Lets be honest, they're 5th century desert nomads who lucked out by camping on oil reserves. The one's with the biggest swords evolved to gold plated machine guns and that's about it.
Their sole contribution to the world is the facilitation of global warming.
"Most Muslim fundamentalists are not willing to sacrifice themselves for a cause either."
I would agree, but how many Christian suicide bombers are attacking up abortion clinics? Mostly they gun and run. Self-preservation would seem to trump self-sacrifice.
There is absolutely no virtue in the actions of Muslim suicide bombers, but there is a fundamental difference between the two groups of extremists in their willingness to die for a cause. Someone might argue that Christian extremists believe suicide is some kind of mortal sin, but I think it mostly self-interest. Or the lack of a 72-virgin signing bonus.
"On the contrary, it is one who makes such a radical claim who is an extremist nut."
No. Religious beliefs are so divorced from reality that they are wildly delusional. That is simple fact. And so the original poster is correct - the belief in ideas so wildly delusional can't be moderate. They are at the furthest imaginable extreme from reality.
Neither the fact that a huge number of people are wildly delusional nor the fact the person making the judgement (yourself) is also delusional lessens the degree to which that delusion departs from reality.
sorry truth machine, but religious people are not any better off than schizophrenics. they both talk to invisible people that exist only in their mind. it's just that some religious people are able to compartmentalize reasonably well.
also, fundies have had the bomb since at least 2000. has anyone heard of bush?
"one screwed up, vile little backwater of a barbarous craphole." Indeed.
The indignation on display in the comments section is warranted, but: Can we actually do something to prevent this murder from happening? Any ideas?
I kind of hate to say this, since my gut tells me to feel otherwise, but, well, we've got a good example in Bush why one shouldn't necessarily listen to that.
If one were to hold the average Arab male responsible for the actions of the Saudi regime, by the same logic, one would have to hold all of us U.S. citizens just as responsible for the actions of President Bush, and even more so, this being a democracy where we collectively have some control over who's leading the place. While I suppose this might amount to an appeal to consequences, it does give me pause enough to think that it's not so right to hold them culpable, after all.
What the hell is up with these superstitous gumps who all seem to think that any time Mr. Winky fails to pop to attention that there must be a WITCH about? And if you actually were a witch you wouldn't have a better plan than making some guys dick limp?
I can see the tee shirts now - 'I had congress with the beast and all I got was this crappy ability to put your pee-pee to sleep!'
#92 Randy Owens wrote: If one were to hold the average Arab male responsible for the actions of the Saudi regime, by the same logic, one would have to hold all of us U.S. citizens just as responsible for the actions of President Bush ...
And why shouldn't Americans be responsible for the actions of President Bush? Americans elected him in 2004 knowing full well what his actions had been and what they would be and American voters could have forced their elected representatives to impeach him any time since then. If Congresspeople were sure they wouldn't be re-elected unless they impeached Bush it would have happened very fast. Of course, a whole population being "responsible" doesn't mean much, since you can hardly put millions of people on trial. Having them feel guilty is about the best you can do.
Jeh (#88),
Suicide bombings have more to do with the availability of weaponry rather than religion. Groups tend to resort to suicide bombing for ideological reasons or because they have no better weapons systems at their disposal. Religion likely makes it easier to find self-igniting recruits, but the motivation among leaders to conduct suicide bombing campaigns is seldom religious. Suicide terrorism is by no means uniquely Muslim, nor is suicide terrorism conducted by groups like Hamas likely to continue if they acquired other, more capable, weapons systems.
No. Religious beliefs are so divorced from reality that they are wildly delusional. That is simple fact. And so the original poster is correct - the belief in ideas so wildly delusional can't be moderate.
Look, the claim was that all religious believers -- not beliefs -- are "extremist nuts". If you really think that -- that Ken Miller, John Edwards, Martin Gardner, Bill Moyers, and millions of others are "extremist nuts", then you're an idiot. I prefer to think that you don't really believe that.
They are at the furthest imaginable extreme from reality.
Uh, sure, if your continuum contains only two positions, "belief" and "unbelief", then all believers are at the extreme and there are no moderates ... by definition. But that's stupid.
the person making the judgement (yourself) is also delusional
I'm not "delusional" to think that you're being ridiculous.
"hold all of us U.S. citizens just as responsible for the actions of President Bush ..."
And why shouldn't Americans be responsible for the actions of President Bush? Americans elected him in 2004 knowing full well what his actions had been and what they would be and American voters could have forced their elected representatives to impeach him any time since then.
What part of the word "all" don't you understand? I didn't elect George Bush and I could not have forced my elected representatives to impeach him -- believe me, I've tried!
People who can't distinguish between a group and the individuals who comprise the group are retarded.
There is absolutely no virtue in the actions of Muslim suicide bombers, but there is a fundamental difference between the two groups of extremists in their willingness to die for a cause.
The motivations are quite different. See the movie Paradise Now.
Do you mean all such people, tm? ;-)
I think the woman, if she were a witch, has done a great service to the gene pool by making these blokes impotent. If it stops them passing on their idiot genes to a new generation, it's good enough for me.
- I agree that it is difficult to say that all of some group, here Saudi men, have the same characteristics. However, almost all the 911 hijackers were Saudi(though there are some misidentifications) and it is reported that the majority of the foreign bombers in Iraq are Saudis, men of course. So there is at least a widespread characteristic there.
- I agree with those criticize the statement "There is absolutely no virtue in the actions of Muslim suicide bombers, but there is a fundamental difference between the two groups of extremists in their willingness to die for a cause." If you take young Palestinians for example, they have grown up in desperation and can see no possibility of improvement for themselves or their families or friends.
They really have no future. So why shouldn't they do what they can with their very limited means to try to change things? If they accept the status quo, they will continue to live in an underclass indefinitely. For them, there is virtue in their act.
Do you mean all such people, tm? ;-)
Yes, I do, silly. "People who ..." and "All people who ..." mean the same thing, unlike "Americans elected him" vs. "All Americans elected him".
However, almost all the 911 hijackers were Saudi(though there are some misidentifications) and it is reported that the majority of the foreign bombers in Iraq are Saudis, men of course. So there is at least a widespread characteristic there.
There's a fallacy of affirmation of the consequent here. It's hardly surprising that 16 of the 911 hijackers were Saudis when ObL is a Saudi; this says nothing about Saudi's in general. A disproportionate number of U.S. Army recruits are black; does that reveal a widespread characteristic of blacks? Of course not; the blacks in the Army are a small fraction of the whole, and have something in common other than being black (e.g., poverty, lack of good alternatives).
the blacks in the Army are a small fraction of the whole
I mean that they are a small fraction of all blacks. People all too readily get confused about what "most Xs are Ys" says about Ys when the number of Ys is much larger than the number of Xs ... namely, very little. So it is with "the majority of the foreign bombers in Iraq are Saudis", which tells us a lot about foreign bombers in Iraq but almost nothing about Saudis.
P.S. It can help to draw a Venn Diagram. Draw a big honking circle and label it "Saudi men", then draw at the edge of that circle a much smaller circle that is mostly within the big circle and label it "foreign bombers in Iraq", and consider the portion of the big circle that lies outside the small circle ...
Eric Paulson sai:
Agreed, but then again it can't just be because the strong, righteous, virile men in question are casting around desperately for excuses could it?
Clearly, that explanation would be cynical and wrong. [/snark]
Remind me again - how does one go about resigning from the human race?
I was born in Saudi Arabia and my mother distinctly remember a very uncomfortable year there. Even though they lived on a largely British compound she was not allowed out by herself, was not allowed to drive, could not take the bus without a male or older female companion and I was kept virtually house-bound.
For our first Christmas my dad had to smuggle in christmas paper and decorations, and made the tree from wire. It is little wonder we left as soon as his contract expired!
Calgeorge, Craig,
I think you need to distinguish between 3 broad types of religious beliefs ;
1. Beliefs that are clearly contrary to evidence
eg
the world was created in 7 days, the earth is 6000 yold, all species were created at ounce, evolution didn't happen the way Science says, the scriptures are the word of God, etc...
Holding any of those makes you clearly delusional, ignorant, and most probably, stupid.
2. Beliefs that have proven not only to be wrong, but to be harmful to others and to society as a whole
eg
women, blacks, etc... are inferior to men, whites, etc...
An eye for an eye, people who don't believe the same as I do should be condemned, homosexuality is a crime, abortion is a crime, etc...
Holding any of those makes you a fundamentalist, an extremist, or simply put, an a**hole. Usually goes in pair with 1, but not always (there are some tricky fellows).
3. Beliefs for which there is no evidence, but honestly, why should one waste one's time trying to refute them, if it makes some people feel better, and as long as they don't try to impose them on others
eg
This universe might have been created by a loving God (whatever it means for them), it's my preference but I admit that I'm not certain about it
There might be life after death but I admit that I don't really know what that means, just gives me some hope and helps to confront hardship, the soul might not be made of flesh, there's maybe something more to reality as we observe it...etc
If Religion evolves adequately it can be of positive value to humanity
I feel better when I pray, or go to mass as long as select a group that doesn't belong to category 1 and 2
Religion should be a source of real charity in the world
etc...
Here in Western Europe, I'd say that a majority of people who consider themselves Christians, belong to category 3. Does that make them, as you say, wildly delusional, or extremists, and do they deserve the vitriol that you pronounce onto them ?
Because if you do, I'm sorry to say, that makes of you, an extremist.
I have many good friends, good people, who belong to category 3, and I respect them. I don't share all of these beliefs, but honestly, if all religious people could belong to that category, that would be a good starting point for this new century.
Please don't sass the Saudis until we've flogged* them a few more Eurofighters no-one else wants.
* Flogged in the British sense: sold.
Just think, in a few years it might be our troops on the receiving end of Eurofighter assaults.
Us being fought with weapons we sold to previous allies turned enemies? That couldn't happen could it?
negentropyeater said:
Point taken, and I definitely agree that the vitriol poured over the heads of religious people, as opposed to religion in general, on this topic is OTT. I also absolutely agree that in a world where religious believers are overwhelmingly in category 3) (hey, they can be in category 1) if that's what floats their boat so long as they don't try to impose it on anyone else) is a world in which I cease to have any interest in what the religious are getting up to - it's their head, they can keep whatever they like inside it so long as it doesn't hurt the rest of us.
Having said that however I think the category 3) religious people do deserve some criticism when they play down or try to ignore the damage done by people in categories 1) and 2) whilst simultaneously trying to distance themselves from it - the "no-true Scotsman" crowd.
I find this infuriating, if you don't want to be lumped in with the nutters and you dislike the damage they are doing to your religion that much, then do something about them yourselves. If you just sit bleating to atheists about how "we're not all like that" or "no-one who really understands the meaning of (insert name of wretched superstition here) thinks like that" whilst simultaneously doing nothing to stop the nutters is somewhat akin (to borrow an analogy from Truth Machine) to an American who, if asked, claims to despise George Bush and all his works but refuses to vote come election time. OK such a person is not as responsible for the current political mess as a fervent republican, but they're not exactly guilt free either.
Of course this point of view also means that I have absolute respect for those religious people who do fight against the nutters in their midst, but when you look around they do seem to be a little thin on the ground, wouldn't you agree?
Last night on Question Time (I'm in the UK) everyone was talking about how evil China were for being involved in Darfur (because they have oil) and how everyone should boycott the Olympiuc Games because of it.
I really wish someone had brought up exactly how the UK and US constantly cosy up to Saudi Arabia and gloss over the horrific things it does for exactly the same reason. I really don't think we can take the moral high ground on this one.
Willo the Wisp Re #62,
Just for fun you may want to delve a bit deeper into this topic:
http://www.theoildrum.com/
DrFrank said:
Agreed, revolting isn't it, especially combined with the unedifying spectacle of the recent "good will" visit and the BAE corruption scandal - it makes me ashamed to be British.
Truth Machine / negentropyeater are spot on.
My opinion (although TM called me a dumbshit or worse for posing such an opinion so not textbook dictionary) is that religion is any -ism with a dogma that has followers that dogmatically follow the dogma regardless of evidence, rational logic, fairness, etc. Sky daddy gods need not be involved. All religions are dangerous.
God belief while in my mind always a silly waste of time is not in and by itself deleterious to mankind, in all its forms and degrees. It may set the stage for an -ism to have more control and authority than it should and all that, so it is not desirable in my mind and should be discouraged, but god belief without strong attachment to an -ism and its dogma is just a thing people do to help float their boat, no worse than any other mental masturbation.
It is the dogmatic -isms that that are the problem; they are vile, dangerous, and if clever enough and with the right meme they can muster enough power to take control of the minds of even good people so that they do terrible things (witness Germany and Italy circa WWII, the Red Brigade in Italy in the 70's, etc.).
Individuals can be real bad on their own because they are sociopaths or something - but nothing can get sane and normally fine people to act like the criminally insane like an -ism that takes control. Dawkins et al flay away too much in my opinion at A contributing factor (god belief) making many moderates get defensive and then miss the bigger danger that they must join us in fighting.
Back to the point: there are good people, and bad people .. there are rebellious people, and compliant people .. sometimes fear overtakes rebellion - often collective think and pressures make the good look and act bad. Fight the real enemies - the powers that be.
"Before getting all "Muslims are evil stupid dogs and should be eliminated" (or "extirpated", as Hitchens puts it), do keep in mind that the victim here, for whom we rightly have sympathy, is an illiterate Muslim who, for all we know, cried with joy on 9/11 when she learned that a blow had been struck against the Great Satan that enables the corrupt government that oppresses her"
If you had bothered to examine the reaction of the Islamic world in the days following Sept 11th you may have noticed that there were demonstrations in many Muslim countries. Not demonstrations in support of the terrorists but demonstrations against the actions of the terrorists.
Bush and Co are guilty of many crimes but the greatest of all may be that they threw away the sympathy following Sept 11th and instead got much of Islamic world outraged over US and UK actions in Iraq. Just think what progress a president who had the slightest understanding of the world could have done post Sept 11th.
As an Aussie, I'm just as much a petrol slut as anybody. So I can only say that this sucks as bad as it can suck, and I'm in turn sharing of some part of the responsibility.
Having no political power nor voice at the moment and having no federal election for at least another three years, I'm not sure what to do apart from complain. Thoughts? (No, I'm not going to rip down a functioning secular democracy in order to complain about a monarchical theocracy. Sorry for that.)
Look, the claim was that all religious believers -- not beliefs -- are "extremist nuts". If you really think that -- that Ken Miller, John Edwards, Martin Gardner, Bill Moyers, and millions of others are "extremist nuts", then you're an idiot. I prefer to think that you don't really believe that.
Bill Moyers (and I adore Bill Moyers) is a huge disappointment when it comes to religion. Think of the good he could have done by taking a strong stand against religion. Lost. He gives the religious people who appear on his show a pass ("Is God Green?" Give me a fucking break). The best thing he ever did was give up spewing that crap about Joseph Campbell.
Lilly,
I absolutely agree with what you say, it is as much the responability of moderate believers and of non believers, to denounce, ridiculise, boo, and vote for politicians who do not belong to category 1 and 2.
But then one question, how do you expect non believers and moderates to unite on these issues, when so many non believers consider any form of religious belief as wildly delusional, harmful, and anything to do with religion to be the root of all evil ?
My prediction (it's not that difficult to make) is that Obama (a religious moderate) is going to be the next president of the USA and he is going to win in a landslide. This is a huge opportunity because, thx to Mr Bush, a majority of Americans now know what religious extremism can do to this country. There is always a reaction, and we're one generation away from good old Reagan.
Now, the time has come, as the Walrus said, to speak of many things...
And we need optimists, who really believe that one can now turn this country into a real secular nation, once and for all.
You know, I'm living here in Europe, but I do care about this battle in the USA, more than I care about what is happening in my own country. Because unless the USA moves in the right direction, we'll also be at risk.
Bill Moyers, extremist:
The struggle for a just world goes on. It is not a partisan affair. God is neither liberal nor conservative, Republican nor Democrat. To see whose side God is on, just go to the Bible. It is the widow and the orphan, the stranger and the poor who are blessed in the eyes of the Lord; it is kindness and mercy that prove the power of faith and justice that measures the worth of the state. Kings are held accountable for how the poor fare under their reign. Prophets speak to the gap between rich and poor as a reason for God's judgment. Poverty and justice are religious issues, and Jesus moves among the disinherited.
Rank, misguided complacency. Crap. It's like he thinks about God and religion and - blink! - his brain switches off.
Or when so many believers routinely describe atheists as empty, shallow, miserable and dangerous moral defectives?
Although I agree with you about blanket statements about religious people simply for being religious (with the proviso I've already discussed) some of your post reminds me of the same accusations that are routinely leveled about the Gay and Women Liberation movements which basically boil down to "How do you expect people to listen if you are so rude (and please ignore the other side being far more vicious about you, they're not the issue)?"
Mostly I see this type of attack as a distraction - most thoughtful religious people know about the flaws in their religion and are not offended by people bringing them up (although they might disagree) and so will not be put off by us being honest about what we think.
The ones who do take offence at the flaws in religious belief being discussed are frankly, exactly the people who need to be laughed at as they are the ones trying to impose their views on other people (in this case the view that religious beliefs should somehow be immune from criticism in a way other beliefs aren't).
Frankly, if they want us to be polite there is a simple way to do it. Stop trying to make us live our lives according to their religious rules and we'll stop informing them into which part of the human anatomy they can shove said rules.
Sound fair?
CalGeorge,
I recommend you take a course in Negotiation analysis. Then you'll understand why this speech he gave at the American Baptist Churches Biennial is not only great, but efficient.
What would you have expected that he say, something like Dawkins, or Hitchens ?
You're so naive that it hurts, sorry.
quote' To be fair, this are all allegations on PZ's part ;)'quote
to be fair im not sure the accused lady will give a shit when that blade (assuming she is murdered by her government)passes through her neck.
what a diseased cesspit, im glad i was born where i was and when i was. to think that if i'd been born in a fundamentalist household in a theocracy just what type of person would i be????? hopefully not one supporting this womans sentence.
Lilly,
Up until 4 years ago, I was deeply involved, as a Gay activist, in the associations which succesfully convinced Zapatero in Spain to pass laws enabling Gay marriage.
I know first hand what it took.
And Yes, WE had to show that we can be good, decent, moral individuals. And we knew who were our enemy. And they weren't the religious moderates, we made sure we have them on our side (otherwise, we would never have succeeded). We showed respect, we got respect back. And those who weren't respecting us, were ridiculed.
"Mostly I see this type of attack as a distraction - most thoughtful religious people know about the flaws in their religion and are not offended by people bringing them up (although they might disagree) and so will not be put off by us being honest about what we think."
This is an important point Lily makes.
In the UK Dawkins is not the divisive figure some in the US claim he is. How else can you explain the fact that many Anglican bishops are willing to take part in debates with him, and how else can you explain the Archbishop of Canterbury welcoming "The God Delusion" as an important part of a debate about the the role of religion. I am quite sure the Archbishop does not agree with the conclusions Dawkins comes to, but it does seem he is quite able to engage with Dawkins and not dismiss.
Lilly, Matt,
there is a difference between what I said :
"how do you expect non believers and moderates to unite on these issues, when so many non believers consider any form of religious belief as wildly delusional, harmful, and anything to do with religion to be the root of all evil?"
and what you said :
"The ones who do take offence at the flaws in religious belief being discussed are frankly..."
we are not talking of the same people.
And again when you say,
"Frankly, if they want us to be polite there is a simple way to do it. Stop trying to make us live our lives according to their religious rules and we'll stop informing them into which part of the human anatomy they can shove said rules."
You are again definitely not taking of religious moderates.
Does Obama give you the impression that he wants you to live your life according to religious rules ?
- As to the BAE scandal, now there is a revelation that Bush's good buddy Prince Bandar threatened the British Government with facilitating more terrorist attacks if it didn't stop the investigation.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/15/bae.armstrade
"Saudi Arabia's rulers threatened to make it easier for terrorists to attack London unless corruption investigations into their arms deals were halted, according to court documents revealed yesterday.
Previously secret files describe how investigators were told they faced "another 7/7" and the loss of "British lives on British streets" if they pressed on with their inquiries and the Saudis carried out their threat to cut off intelligence."
- The Red Brigades were hardly comparable to the Nazis or to Italian fascists. That is a ridiculous juxtaposition. I also find it strange that the Red Brigades are usually mentioned when most of the terrorist attacks, and certainly the biggest ones, were carried out by neo-fascist groups organized by the U.S. government and other governments in Operation Gladio, aided by groups such as Propaganda Due. These were intended at false flag attacks.
Here is a BBC documentary on Operation Gladio, state sponsored terrorism.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2MOpkriXb4
Hardly anyone mentions the real problem, the neo-fascists, but just remember the Red Brigades. Is that intentional?
It's not just Saudi Arabia, I hear China is doing it too:
"WASHINGTON (AP) -- Amid a discussion of trade in 1973, Chinese leader Mao Zedong made what U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger called a novel proposition: sending tens of thousands, even 10 million, Chinese women to the United States.
Chinese leader Mao Zedong, here depicted in an Andy Warhol painting, offered women to the U.S.
"You know, China is a very poor country," Mao said, according to a document released by the State Department's historian office.
"We don't have much. What we have in excess is women. So if you want them we can give a few of those to you, some tens of thousands."
A few minutes later, Mao circled back to the offer. "Do you want our Chinese women?" he asked. "We can give you 10 million."
After Kissinger noted Mao was "improving his offer," the chairman said, "We have too many women. ... They give birth to children and our children are too many."
"It is such a novel proposition," Kissinger replied in his discussion with Mao in Beijing. "We will have to study it."
SG
Does Obama give you the impression that he wants you to live your life according to religious rules ?
Yes.
"So to say that men and women should not inject their "personal morality" into public policy debates is a practical absurdity. Our law is by definition a codification of morality, much of it grounded in the Judeo-Christian tradition."
He has a definition of politics that give huge weight to the influence of religion. Religion forms the basis of the law. In Barack's world, religion is there, it's part of the very fabric of the country, it's inescapable. It permeates the culture.
Lucky he wasn't one of the people involved in the nation's founding. We might be living in a theocracy.
This is not a forward thinking person.
If he's afraid of harsh language about religion and/or is prepared to allow religious rules into politics then, frankly, yes (even if less so than the other candidates in this US election he's still not ideal - merely among the least bad).
Yes, but in this instance surely those who don't respect us is anyone who announces arbitrarily that we can't talk about flaws in religion or religious dogma in the same way we'd talk about political differences.
These people might call themselves moderates but if they interfere with my ability to talk about religion as I see it, then they sure as hell are not showing me any respect and whatever they may call themselves and whatever their intent they are imposing religious rules on me as a major religious rule in just about every religion is that you do not criticise religion or (frequently) the religious leaders (unless they're someone else's).
As for those religious moderates who helped you achieve Gay Marriage in Spain, I salute them unreservedly (as I mentioned in my first post I have nothing but respect for religious people ready to actually help undo the damage their co-religionists do). However I'd be very surprised to find them particularly offended by the exchanges we are currently having or the views on religious debate that I have been advocating (and I am sure they would be absolutely horrified by the subject of PZ's current post).
As Matt Penfold has already mentioned, there are many religious people (in the UK at least) who do not find Dawkins et al offensive even as they disagree with him and it is them that I am willing to acknowledge as moderates, those that find atheist speech almost by definition offensive, not so much.
If we focus on the persecution of one accused witch in Saudi Arabia (an unsubstantiated & unproven allegation in this case), we will not be focusing on;
More than 500,000 innocent Muslim "humans" maimed & murdered in Irag - many of the murdered were women and children
The ongoing genocide (starvation and outright murder) of caged Palestinians in Gaza at the bloody hands of Zionist militarists funded by 4 billion in American foreign aid.
The Zionist propaganda colossus knows its framing technigue.
Not one mention by any blogger of the inescapable & mandatory hypothesis that this story has been pitched and framed by the bloodthirsty Zionist peeyar colossus - the most successful peeyar campaign in history.
It is factually true that the Zionist peeyar framers are spending millions to frame all Muslims as fanatical boogymen (war on terror) & dis-credit all Saudis as well as our dependence on their critical oil supplies.
Human Rights Watch is a slick peeyar front headed by a forked tongue Yalie lawyer and Israel firster, Kenneth Roth.
Here come the Zionist cyber typists.
"If we focus on the persecution of one accused witch in Saudi Arabia (an unsubstantiated & unproven allegation in this case), we will not be focusing on; .... "
I do not think PZ can be accused of ignoring the plight of any of those groups. In the past he has posted about the abysmal way they are treated as well.
You will need to find another excuse for your bigotry.
"Suicide bombings have more to do with the availability of weaponry rather than religion."
Do we lack weaponry in the US? How could some dumbass like McVeigh cobble together the materials for a very effective truck bomb in OKC? McVeigh was apparently not religious, but he was a true believer. He felt the need to retaliate for what he perceived as an attack on the religious freedom of those that had died in Waco.
In the end, McVeigh made quite sure he was nowhere within the blast radius. Likewise, when the religious crazies murdered doctors who carried out abortions, they typically did not wait around to die in a fire fight with the police. They go hide in the woods, living with the help of symphathizers.
Make no doubt about it, suicide bombers are quire effective weapons systems, and the key to their effectiveness is not AI in some microchip.
The bomb used by McVeigh is not hard to make. You just need access to fertilizers and fuel oil (diesel will do). The former is not that common in urban areas but is widely availible in rural areas.
The IRA made extensive use of such bombs.
Matt Penfold, it is an ad hominem attack to say that "g" is bigoted. I don't see any bigotry in his post. I think he is mistaken in that HRW also condemned Israel's attack on Lebanon. I don't call it a "war", because it was a massacre.
And American subsidies, called "aid", amount to more that 6 billion per, about equally proportioned between military and economic.
Bernada,
"g" shows all the classic signs of being bigoted.
Why is it wrong to call him such ? The nature of his post would suggest that reasoning is not his strong point.
g is gerald spezio....his idiotic "peeyar" gave it away....
Here we go again.
or, maybe i should say, g is gerald spezio's sockpuppet.
People are saying "they" an awful lot. You gotta remember, not every Saudi acts like this, nor approves of it...~24.7 million people, not a homogeneous body of opinion, you know...
PeteK Says:
True, but it should be obvious that the "they" we are having a go at are the "they" who do approve of this sentence and the "they" (i.e the Saudi authorities) who are, at the moment, quite prepared to carry it out.
Oh and Bernarda: if g wants to object to being called a bigot he is perfectly at liberty to do so, but he might want to remember in future that if he doesn't want to be called a bigot, he shouldn't say bigoted things.
Lilly: OK, I just think there's a tendency to misinterpret "all Saudi men" as "all 12.35 million Saudi men", when only the Saudi authroities are meant.
Ironically, it's us who are witchhunting - Muslims, in this case. Most Muslims in the world would, if pressed, be as horified by this as non-muslims..But then MOST religious people encourage unreason, by hiding behind "faith", thereby making things easy for the extremists...
"People are saying "they" an awful lot. You gotta remember, not every Saudi acts like this, nor approves of it...~24.7 million people, not a homogeneous body of opinion, you know..."
Agreed, but it becomes rather cumbersome to keep having to qualify "they" every time you use it. Most people here understand that and take it as read.
These photos are of maimed and murdered Iragis accused and later found to be completely innocent of having weapons of mass destruction.
http://www.aljazeera.net/news/archive/archive?ArchiveId=50472
The weapons of mass destruction scam was only a yuppie exercise in modern "witchcraft" by well paid university graduates skilled in modern framing, distortion, and deception.
"Lucky he [Obama] wasn't one of the people involved in the nation's founding. We might be living in a theocracy.
"This is not a forward thinking person."
Idiotic.
Since Obama also specifically requires religiously inspired ideas to have rational backing for consideration in the public square, your criticism of his willingness to accept a good idea even if religiously inspired (think Dr. King) is silly. Furthermore, that you seem to think that he is somehow a theocrat is utterly ridiculous.
So, what are we going to do about it?
You know, Gerald (#143), I agree that the WMD "scam" was just that, but pinning it on "yuppies" and "well-paid college graduates" seems odd to me. Why not pin it on the Neocons to whom it belongs, and on those who went along with it out of fear of being painted unpatriotic? (The latter group includes most of Congress, most of the major media outlets, and about half the adult population of the USA. I really don't think "Young Urban Professional" is a demographic that accurately or completely describes a population of that size.)
Hiya, Sinbad. Are you considering voting Democratic this year? :-)
Clearly, nobody believes that the claims of impotence through witchcraft constitutes a legitimate grievance on the part of the accusers. Other sharia law countries - some of them avowed enemies of the US, others nominal allies - have sentenced women to death for killing attempted rapists and executed people for apostasy. These are obviously not legitimate reasons for state violence. Moving from state violence to nonstate violence, the liberation of East Timor in 1999 and international intervention in Darfur are cited by al-Qaeda and others as grievances, as unjust offenses against Muslims.
We can all agree that some grievances, some sources of anger and outrage resulting in violence, are not legitimate and not deserving of respect.
That approach - the possibility that a "grievance" is not legitimate - should be used when considering any act of terrorist or state violence. Yet too often cited terrorist "grievances" are widely accepted - without sufficient consideration - as being legitimate and hence deserving of accommodation. Let's apply the same skepticism and scrutiny to all grievance claims, not just the most patently ridiculous scenarios.
Side note: The Red Brigades kidnapped and murdered a former Prime Minster of Italy. The Red Brigades were idiotic, disgusting, vicious terrorists, just like their fascist cretinous murderer counterparts.
Kseniya. I am chastised and corrected.
Framers Chris Mooney & Nisbet put me over the edge on yuppism.
Yes, there are many guffawing old bastards milking away in the lawyering & peeyar businesses.
And I do respect my conscientious dentist.
But tens of thousands of Iraqis are still dead and thousands more are horribly maimed for life as the ghastly photos show.
The Palestinians in Gaza are still being exterminated by Zionist expansionists.
The bewildered look on the beautiful young Iraqi lady with the bandaged head is imprinted on my brain.
So too the Iraqi fathers with their battered, broken, & shocked children.
The overwhelming coverage of the Falih witchcraft story, if true, is as horribly ugly and stupid as the confirmed cases of people in the US still in jail for equally preposterous witchcraft crimes of accused child abuse, etc.
Such witchcraft crimes in the US were rampant during the last two decades.
Hiya, Sinbad. Are you considering voting Democratic this year? :-)
Hi backacha, Kseniya. I'm always in conflict on that score as I don't fit in either party very well. I support more goals of the Democrats but typically think the means they wish to employ to acheive them are wrongheaded and counterproductive. But I also am a big believer in free markets and more limited government. Despite Dubya, those tend to be more Republican themes (even if honored mostly in the breach). Accordingly, I'm still in wait-and-see mode. Thanks for asking.
PZ, you are the internet voice of science and clearheadedness.
But when you make a gigantic inference of condemning an entire population and their religion from a questionable journalistic account - you are not doing sound social science and being clearheaded.
I see gerry's been reading the Protocols of the Elders of Zion again.
Obama:
.... I absolutely believe that having lived in a country that was majority Muslim for a time and having distant relatives in Africa who are Muslim, that I'm less likely to demonize the Muslim faith and more likely to understand that they are ordinary folks who are trying to figure out how to live their lives and raise their kids and prosper just like anybody else. And I do think that that cultural understanding is something that could be extremely valuable.
Booooo! More criticism, less nice!
So, how did they prove that she's a witch? Does she weigh the same as a duck?
Obama the theocrat: "We're going to keep on praising together. I am confident that we can create a Kingdom right here on Earth."
CalGeorge, I think that Obama's professions of relgiosity and family values are indicative of much worse than just theocratic leanings.
Scumbag lawyer Dan Quayle continually milked at this peeyar titty.
Max Planck was a great scientist and also a religious man.
Obama is a classic yuppie lawyer, and his proclivity for forked tongue doubletalk and marketing are just part of the lawyering scam.
Hilarious and Obama are both trained advocates poseuring for money, career, & status - not truth.
It should get much worse.
Obama the alleged theocrat:
"Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason. I may be opposed to abortion for religious reasons, but if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God's will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all."
http://obama.senate.gov/speech/060628-call_to_renewal/index.php
Obama:
I am a Christian, and I am a devout Christian. I believe in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe that that faith gives me a path to be cleansed of sin and have eternal life.
[Shudder]
As soon as Pakistan explodes, yes.
Isn't it more like BushCheney owns them?
Show me he isn't just saying "I am confident that we can create Utopia".
CalGeorge, can you give us a cite for this quote?
"I am a Christian, and I am a devout Christian..."
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/januaryweb-only/104-32.0.html?…
It's a shame that he is going to lead millions of Americans astray with his God-talk.
Four, possibly eight years of a President spreading religious bullcrap. Crap!
Obama on Father's Day, 2005:
Sometimes when we think about our history ... it's hard to feel hopeful sometimes. And yet Scripture reminds us that what makes hope hope is that you can't see it right there.... It seems to me that the greatest gift that we can pass on to our children is understanding that God is looking after us in this difficult journey, and that, even if we don't realize it, there's a plan for us.
Ugh! Double ugh!
A reminder of what pigs male muslim true believers are, from Pat Condell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq4ObP_rzrs
It should be instructive that PZ started this thread with a focus on an unsubstantiated, but still inescapably bizarre example of Islamic fundamentalism/extremism in Saudi Arabia.
Cut to the beejebus extremism and utopianism of wham-bam-Obama.
Three highly probable final candidates; Hilarious, Bama, & McCain - for next emperor of Supernation and its expansionist Israeli client state.
What a phenomenal coup by the powerful Zionist Lobby right in front of us.
All possible candidates securely genuflecting before AIPAC and guaranteeing more Israeli engineered murdering of Muslims.
The Islamist Arabs are filthy rich from their sacred oil, and they could soon buy an anti-Israel candidate.
"Bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" before its too late for the Zionist dream of an Israeli State from the Nile to the Euphrtaes.
Even lawyer Hilarious would switch and suck for the right amount of Arab oil money.
Bernada, if propagandist Condell made identical statements about Jewish exceptionalism and chosen-ness, wouldn't that be horrendous anti-Semitism actionable at law?
Does this still qualify as "unsubstantiated"?
Kseniya, assuming for the moment that the basic facts are true, it is as monstrous a travesty of science, justice, and evidence as we will ever see.
Or course, the Falih story deserves our rapt attention.
All abuses of our enlightenment heritage are worthy of our attention.
The tremendous coverage of the withcraft story, however, can't hold a candle against the continual murdering of innocent women and children in Iraq and Palestine - all based on conscious and deceitful educated witchcraft.
This engineered and monstrous murder and mayhem of tens of thousands of innocent people is NOT receiving adequate reporting and discussion.
Kseniya,
Gerry thinks Islamic misogyny is an unworthy issue, indeed a non-issue, because it's merely Zionist propaganda. Remember the thread on child brides, and the UNICEF photo? There's some great wanking by Gerry on that thread.
The guy's a crank.
Matt Penfold (#116):
Saudi Arabia is one of the very few places in the world where 9/11 celebrations took place. To some extent this is to be expected given the US role in supporting the Saudi dictatorship, but it hardly says much about the level of civilization exhibited by Saudis.
Lest we forget, the current kleptocracy of Arabia was installed by the British at the end of World War One. The people of Arabia have never in history had any opportunity to choose their own leaders.
-jcr
"Cut to the beejebus extremism and utopianism of wham-bam-Obama."
Has he killed anyone for witchcraft or adultery? No? Then STFU.
-jcr
Theocrat Obama?!?! Are you out of your fucking mind?
Quote mine all you like, but the religion professed by that rather savvy politician is nothing even near theocratic levels.
You abuse the word when you smear it on anyone who professes religious belief. And after you've smeared and abused all the words that define what religious position you are not, what happens when those then loosely defined words come back to be painted on you? Extremist? Fundamentalist? Irrationalist? Where will you hide when no idiotic position can't be thrown back at you?
I appreciate tenacity, but don't be fooled by the nuttery gerald espouses. Save your energy for something real. If you're looking to pulverize a religious zealot, Obama is not your man. Take him to task for his religious pandering as PZ does, but don't confuse him with theocrats.
Has he killed anyone for witchcraft or adultery? No? Then STFU.
Is that the test for religious extremism? If someone has killed another for witchcraft? That's a pretty low bar you set.
"I am a Christian, and I am a devout Christian. I believe in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe that that faith gives me a path to be cleansed of sin and have eternal life."
Change we can believe in.
"I lead the Pledge of Allegiance when I open up the Senate. I've been saying the Pledge of Allegiance since I was three years old."
What a guy.
negentropyeater, There is indeed a Christian Problem in the US. Fundie Christians (and I have to give them due respct as they are the only coherent Christians I know) are indeed attempting to make the US a second rate natio by preventing the teaching of the current understanding of Biology, Geology, and even Physics. Anyone who attempts to teach the facts of these sciences is accused of being attached to anti-Biblical doctrine out of a love for his sinfulness.
And the fundies most certainly are trying for The Bomb. They are not fools. They know what control over The Bomb will bring. Thats why they are focusing their effort on the USAf Academy.
As soon as Pakistan explodes, yes.
Isn't it more like BushCheney owns them?
Show me he isn't just saying "I am confident that we can create Utopia".