Yes, the sad little cracker has met its undignified end, so stop pestering me. The cracker, the koran, and another surprise entry have been violated and are gone. You'll have to wait until tomorrow for the details, what little of them there are. I must quickly apologize to all you good Catholics who were hoping to attend Mass, since you can't anymore — I have been told many hundreds of times now that cracker abuse violates your right to practice your religion. I guess you'll have to adapt. Secular humanism is a good alternative, if you aren't already flocking to join the Mormons.
Anyway, I've got important things to do today. It's my oldest son's birthday, and I told him that as a gift to me him, I'd take myself him to see The Dark Knight. I sure hope the world doesn't end before the movie does.
I have a feeling there is someone somewhere feeling victorious about this :P
Oh the suspense is killing me. That is, the suspense to see the hysterical over-reaction, not so much for the details of what you did to it.
Since the world is ending, with PZ's violation of holy flesh, I guess I'd best start the looting.
Seriously, I'm glad that this nonsense will be over soon.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
No worries. I was just watching an old Louis Theroux's Weird Weekends episode on american religions, and according to the religious experts, the world is going to end in Sept., 1994.
PZ,
Glad this incident is behind all of us. Enjoy the film, particularly (SPOILER ALERT) Joker's "magic trick" (END SPOILER ALERT).
Also, the "Watchmen" trailer rocks.
Cheers!
Oh man, Sept of 94 was a rough month. MY world ended when she reached down my throat and pulled my heart out. Wow, what a prophesy.
Does the trash really get taken out so early there? It's not winter, so it should still be light out.
Wonder what the 'surprise entry was'. It must be serious business if PZ mentioned the Koran but not the 'surprise entry'.
Maybe it was the Mormon underpants. Or a dish of pasta.
Oh no...not good. The tides are receding, the wind has come to a sudden halt, the sky has turned red beneath a fading sun, and, across the intertubes, the holy swarms of Crusading larvae come to claim vengeance for the defiled crackers! Head for the high ground, people!
Let the weeping and wailing, the mortification of flesh, the loving threats of death commence.
Happy Birthday to your son! :-) Hope you guys have fun at the movies!
Just kidding. I can't remember what I did in Sept 07, much less 1994. I probably threw a party simply because the month was SO good.
Oh, that explains it. I was wondering why the planets were in conjunction above a blood-red full moon this morning. I didn't hear anything about it on Jack Horkheimer's show.
What lessons can we learn from Prof. Meyers' circus? 1) That we should be intolerant of people who believe in God; 2) That we should be hate-filled bigots; 3) That we should intentionally insult Catholics and feign surprise when they get angry about it; 4) That we should treat other people with disrespect. These are great life lessons. I'm sure you've imparted them to your son, Myers. Wish him a happy birthday from me. P.S. I bet God will have the last laugh.
I'm going to guess a cross or some other non exclusively Catholic Christian symbol.
So, can we now play an appropriate song for those Catholics who lost their faith..... Maybe a nice psalm?
Frankly I think you should keep the details confidential and leave thing as stated above. If it has any real meaning then God will deliver his punishment, if the relidulous can't tell what happened then obviously it doesn't have the magic they profess.
If a tornado rips through PZ's bedroom tonight we will draw our own conclusions. If he gets a good night's sleep we'll know that God doesn't give a flying fandangle.
"PZ you have hateful an rude i'm reporting you to the ploice youll be hearing from me soon i'll prey for you!!!!"
Agh! The suspense! How could you!
Oh well, Batman is more important!
PS: Sandi, your imaginary friends are of no matter to us.
Happy Birthday to your son and Happy Unbirthday to you!
Your Gonna LOVE THIS MOVIE!!! IT ROCKS!
It was a little odd, when in the process of emptying The Joker's pockets, Lt. Gordon pulled out 30 knives and a wafer. "Nothing in his pockets but knives and crumbs."
Have some cheese Sandi.
Sandi calls herself Sandi after she lost a particle of sand within her anatomy.
Oh, I always do.
But don't be surprised if I laugh at you, too. I'm an equal-opportunity laugher.
PS: The Joker reminds Me of Me.
Enjoy the Dark Knight! It's fantastic. And while you're watching it, enjoy the subtle lib'rul messages. It's a fine allegory to the war on terror.
Re #14:
A spanking for you Sandi.
And perhaps something really special for your son/daughter from the local pedophile catholic priest. Wouldn't that be quite the lesson. Not sure who would have the last laugh though ...
NOOOOOOOO!! You killed little baby Jesus in His tuxedo shirt! And just look what your blasphemy has done to poor Texas! Don't you know God/Allah has terrible, terrible aim when it comes to retribution??
So Sandi, in your mind the bad guy makes fun of people, while the good guy tortures them for eternity. Correct?
1) That Catholics are no better than Muslims: both religions have people willing to advocate violence for no civilized reason.
2)Catholics, even the non-advocating violence ones, seem to think that insulting their religion is equivalent to death threats and physical violence.
3) We have yet to learn what long term effects this will have: will offense numb the religious to future offense? Will this cause anyone to see their religion for what it is?
4) Provoking the religious is fun to watch.
Oh, oh, I can't wait to see what the surprise entry was. I'm putting five pharyngubucks on the one of those cute statues of Budai.
How very sad. I was holding out hope that PZ would grow up. I guess I was bound to be disappointed. Of course it will backfire. No Catholic will lose his faith over it. No one has benefited from this, including PZ. It's a bit like burning a flag in front of a Veterans day parade and saying it is just cloth. We all know it isn't. He was just wanting to express his hatred and to hurt other people as much as possible. Most decent folks try to avoid hurting others.
I have seen The Dark Knight. PZ, you and the Joker have much in common. Very similar attitudes indeed. Rather scary in fact. That's where hatred gets you PZ. Know thyself.
I will of course make a Holy Hour of Reparation for PZ's hateful and bigoted acts.
God laughing? Sandi, isn't suggesting that heresy or something. Jesus could probably laugh but I don't know about the whole god trinity thingamabobber. You might want to make sure some rogue medieval theologian wasn't burnt for suggesting such a think.
I'd continue but troll need to be kept on a strict diet--over feed them and you won't like the result.
What lessons can we learn from Prof. Meyers' circus? 1) That we should be intolerant of people who believe in God; 2) That we should be hate-filled bigots; 3) That we should intentionally insult Catholics and feign surprise when they get angry about it; 4) That we should treat other people with disrespect. These are great life lessons. I'm sure you've imparted them to your son, Myers. Wish him a happy birthday from me. P.S. I bet God will have the last laugh.
blah blah blah blah blah
have a cracker.
I will of course make a Holy Hour of Reparation for PZ's hateful and bigoted acts.
awwwwwwww...isn;t it cute thinking some talking to himself will make a difference.
Any damage or suffering caused by Dolly will undoubtedly be blamed on you.
I think this will probably backfire. The transubstantiated cracker was really a bit of the Melanoma of Christ, and PZ has just saved his life.
Nice going, jerk.
Gwah? The hell was that?
I will worry when the Sun goes out, and the Moon turns to blood. That is the biblical sign of the end of the world.
Until then, Huzzah PZ! :)
Sandi... once again:
Criticizing an idea can be correct, incorrect, rude, funny, many things. But it can NEVER be bigotry. ALL ideas are fair game for criticism.
You were not born with your religious ideas, and so to claim criticism of them is bigotry is not only cowardice, it's offensive to people who have suffered REAL bigotry.
Want some disrespect? Fine, maybe atheists should erect pointy buildings on every street corner and gather in them weekly to sermonize that everyone who doesn't think like them is immoral and deserve eternal torture.
Maybe atheists should print up tracts and leave them in phone booths and laundromats telling people that if they don't think like us, they WILL be tortured for eternity.
Knock on people's doors and tell them this.
Stop being such a hypocrite, Sandi. The very basis of religion is hatred and intolerance. The "scriptures" can be summed up as saying "Do as we say, think as we do or else you are evil and will be punished."
Every week you idiots file into your little castles of self-glorification and preach the doctrine of "everyone who doesn't think exactly like us is EVIL," and you're going to lecture someone for being intolerant?
Pointing to your hate-filled, delusional rhetoric and saying "bullshit" is hateful?
There's something deeply wrong with you.
Sandi
I'm a Pastafarian. Have you ever eaten pasta? Yes? I guess you:
1) Are intolerant of people who believe in a God
2) Are a hate-filled bigot
3) Intentionally insult Pastafarians and feign surprise when they get angry about it
4) Treat other people with disrespect
PS - His Noodly Appendage will have the last laugh.
Re: Sandi at #14
Wow, took 25 minutes for the first grumpy Catholic to respond. I thought it was going to be faster than that.
... oh well...
Anybody want to bet how long it'll take for the next Catholic League press release?
Hey, violate some beef! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7520149.stm
Oh snap! (no pun intended) The world is ending now that PZ desecrated sacred crackers and books?!?!?! I thought it wasn't supposed to end until 2012. There's so much left I had to do!! NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111oneoenoeneoneoenoeneoneoeoeneoneoenoenoenoneoneoneoneoneoneoneoneoneoneoneoneoneone!1!!
Also:
It's a bit like burning a flag in front of a Veterans day parade and saying it is just cloth.
No, it isn't. It's a bit like burning a flag in your own backyard and saying it is just cloth. Which it is. If he had gone to Mass and done something to the cracker in a Catholic church, your comparison would make sense.
Lessons we learned:
(1) Catholics expect us to respect them, but they don't respect our right to be atheists and laugh at religion. This is not disrespectful or intolerant, it is an opinion. For the definition of intolerance, look at the history of the Catholic church. For almost two thousand years, they cornered the market on intolerance.
(2) Christians believe it is worth killing someone because they desecrate a cracker. This is called hate.
(3) Catholics have no faith in their God to punish someone for desecrating the host. If their God is so powerful, and this terrible crime is worth killing someone over, then why hasn't God squashed PZ into a little puddle of blood and bones?
(4) In actual fact, it was only the threat of cracker desecration that got the Catholics in such a tizzy.
(5) Catholics can't tell the difference between a consecrated and plain cracker.
Does anyone else hear the baying of hellhounds?! Wait... false alarm that's just the chihuahua next door.
Ooh, can they blast music really loud on Saturday nights and wake up all the Christians for miles, like they do on Sunday mornings with those stupid bells?
I've been reading this blog for about a week now...I've always been a closet atheist, given the fact that I grew up in a religious household. But, I've recently realized (with reading this blog) that there's something all of you are missing:
Respect.
Not just from PZ's side or the religious right. From both sides. If you all stepped back from the situation and looked at each side from the other side's point of view, you'd see that you both are crazy.
The problem is that neither side respects the other. Cracker abuse, cyber pistols...They all are an attempt to drive a wedge between atheists and the relgious types.
Why not just realize that what you think is important to you (like love, your family, your wife/husband, your children), are the same things that the other side thinks is important. The atheists calling into question the "wackiness of the religious right" by abusing crackers and whatnot doesn't respect the right that people can think anyway they want to. Same goes for the Catholics. If PZ wants to abuse a Koran, cracker, bible, who cares what, the religious right should respect his right to do so.
If we all can't just respect each others views, what is America all about?
@Fr. J: And what about you? You didn't wise up. Your group never spread love like you dare to claim you do. You spread hatred, biggotery, prejudice, murder. What PZ did is a call for freedom. A call that the guy that got suspended (did he?) was suspended for idiotic reasons. So he didn't want to eat the cracker and took it home. So what? It's a cracker. Why make things complicated? WISE UP, RELIGIOUS ZEALOTS! See if that way instead: if it's in the hands of a believer it's jesus. If its not, it's a tasteless cracker. Then you could just shrug it off LIKE YOU SHOULD HAVE.
And now what will you do? Will you torture PZ like you tortured the jews that supposedly defiled your hosts? Huh? How's that for love? I wish hell existed so all of your hypocrite christians would burn there. You claim you love yet your book is the worst piece of bloody shit I have ever seen! Full of rape, praised by your god. Full of mysoginy, praised by your god. Full of biggotery, praised by your god. Full of murder.... Praised and CAUSED by your god! You are full of it, Fr. J. You dare say we atheists have no morals, yet your book is the steamiest, most VILE display of a lack of morality.
You devolved like 'em lizards in that shitty Mario Bros live action movie.
...wow, did I just write THAT? (I have a shirt of that movie, too. I'm so so so low.)
#44: Um, the logic and comparisons of most of the complainants haven't begun to make sense, so this wouldn't seem to be much a surprise.
If Sandi, Fr. J., or Kenny begin to make sense, seek psychological counseling immediately.
So what? It's a cracker.
Which, as we've learned, is more valuable than human life. A cracker.
Christie, he didn't have the guts to do it that way. But my analogy is correct. He did this publicly. I am sure it will be on youtube. He did this to hurt as many people as possible. That was his goal. Think about it though. This guy is supposedly a professor at a university and he pulls this kind of stunt. Talk about a lack of professionalism. His colleagues should be ashamed. His family should be ashamed. This is the only thing PZ will ever be remembered for, so I hope he enjoys his 15 minutes.
"It's a bit like burning a flag in front of a Veterans day parade and saying it is just cloth. We all know it isn't. "
No, it's like burning a flag in his own house.
He didn't do anything to your precious cracker in a church during mass, you stupid shit.
And a flag IS just cloth. People who get irate over cloth and crackers are stupid and dangerous.
Ignorance is not something to be respected.
Matt,
One fallacy to your post: we don't force our atheism on people and kill them if they don't follow our belief system.
It is disrespectful to teach people to believe that other people are evil and are going to burn in hell.
Christie, he didn't have the guts to do it that way
So now Fr J is turning into a punk-ass fuckwit.
Based on the evidence of the last couple weeks, in the form of His followers' behavior, it seems pretty clear that God doesn't have much of a sense of humor.
Then again, maybe I've got it exactly wrong: Maybe His followers are evidence of God's (wicked) sense of humor? "Mysterious ways," and all that...
The Mormons! You forgot the Mormons!
How could you forget to subject holy underpants to some sacrilegious atrocity?
"This is the only thing PZ will ever be remembered for, so I hope he enjoys his 15 minutes."
Better to be remembered for 15 minutes of pointing out idiocy than for a lifetime of being an idiot.
What lessons can we learn from Prof. Meyers' circus? 1) That we should be intolerant of people who believe in God; 2) That we should be hate-filled bigots; 3) That we should intentionally insult Catholics and feign surprise when they get angry about it; 4) That we should treat other people with disrespect. These are great life lessons. I'm sure you've imparted them to your son, Myers. Wish him a happy birthday from me. P.S. I bet God will have the last laugh.
Yet, again, we have a wackadoo Catholic who doesn't understand the difference between people and beliefs. P Zed did nothing to any actual people. He did not torture anyone (as Catholics have; he did not burn anyone at the stake for their beliefs (as Catholics have); and he did not molest any little kids (as Catholics have).
What PZ did do is mock your beliefs. In a free society, no belief is, or ought to be, exempt from mockery. What you are demanding, however, is not respect, but deference; that is, is that everyone, not just Catholics, treat your beliefs as sacred, and that's just silly. We are not members of your club, and your rules about crackers do not apply to us.
Sandi, do you eat beef? If so, then you have just treated the deepest religious sensibilities of a billion Hindus with contempt by committing the most egregious sacrilege. And worse, you have been an accomplice to the death of a sacred animal, because all cows are sacred in Hinduism. Cow protection is as holy a duty to Hindus as protecting the holy cracker is to you. Unless Sandi, Donahue, and the rest of the Catholics renounce all violence to cows, then they are guilty of the same vicious treatment of Hindu beliefs that they have accused PZ of doing to the Catholic faith.
Remember, by your own standards, Sandi, any object thast is venerated by one set of people, must be venerated by everyone else, too. Renounce the hamburger or risk insulting every Hindu on earth!
Shantih, shantih, shantih!
No, it's like burning a flag in his own house.
It's like tossing a flag he received in the mail in the trash can.
What a pity, we prepared such a nice proposal for the cracker...
The right to free speech, for one. Notice that there is no "right to not be offended" in the bill of rights. Offensive speech is the only speech that requires that kind of protection.
Michelle, you don't have the right to go in to Mass and take the Eucharist or disrupt worship in any way. It is illegal. I don't go to atheist meetings and disrupt them either.
The bigotry I have seen and experienced here is equivalent to burning a cross in a black persons yard. You are the bigot not me. Atheists have murdered over 100 million people in the last century and continue to do so. Many of them are believers. Check out the log in your own eye first.
Fr. J. -
I would think being remembered for blasphemy would be preferred to being a sanctimonious hypocrite with an extreme overvaluation of his own intelligence. That, of course, would assume that someone actually remembers you, which seeing as trolls (like stupidity and arrogance, are the only potentially infinite quantities in the universe) are a seemingly inexhaustible resource, is highly unlikely.
Posted by: Fr. J | July 23, 2008 3:52 PM
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
If God really does get that upset over a piece of himself being desecrated, I'm fairly certain He would be able to express His feelings in a clear, (literally) impossible-to-misunderstand manner. An all-knowing being would know how to take such a course of action, and an all-powerful being would be able to carry it out.
So, uh, I don't really see any point in arguing about whether or not this upsets God (and therefore should upset Christians) or not; if He doesn't like it, then He has every means to make such feelings crystal-clear.
Craig, you don't think the flag is a symbol? You don't think symbols have power? I don't believe that. Do you wear a swastika? It is just a few lines, so no one will mind right? PZ did this because he knows the power of symbols and he wanted to hurt other people. That seems to bother no one here.
"f we all can't just respect each others views, what is America all about?"
Matt, America is NOT about respecting others' views. It's about respecting others RIGHTS to their views.
PZ is in no way doing anything to stop the religious from being religious if they so choose. He's simply expressing HIS opinion.
The idea that all views must be respected is crazy. There are some pretty damned sick views out there. Should NAMBLA member's views be respected? Not their right to them, but the views themselves?
All views are fair game for criticism. Everyone has a right to their views, NO ONE has a right to have their views go uncriticized.
Wrong move. You should have left it as a mystery. It would haunt the deep background forever.
Like the Maria Celeste ship. If the crew hadn't disappeared, it would be just another forgotten shipwreck.
The Lost Dutchman's goldmine.
Judge Crater.
The Ark of the Covenant.
The Holy Grail. King Arthur's camelot.
Atlantis and Mu.
A thousand years from now, treasure hunters and archaeologists would be combing what was once Morris, MN looking for the Cracker of Myers.
Listen, chupagalletas:
I hold Logic, Clear Thinking, and Evidence sacred. You have spent the past week trampling all over everything I hold dear, with no regard whatsoever for my feelings. You have desecrated the Analogy shamelessly and with malice aforethought. I hope you're satisfied. I'll reason for you.
He needs guts? Why because all the catholics are violent and oppressive people? I call BS. Why would he need any more guts than he has shown?
No he did it to show the very simple and apparently lost on you fact that it is a simple cracker and not anything else. Why does that bother you? It is you with the perception problem not PZ.
He IS a professor. He simply said a cracker is a cracker. That to you is lacking professionalism but you come on the blog and make these type of comments? hypocrite.
This is not bringing him fame, in a mostly Protestant country people realize it's just a cracker. He simply said the truth and why should anyone be ashamed of that? You prefer to lie to yourself and that sir is a far greater problem.
Oh PZ, you cracker tease! Lately this blog has been like a crumby, (crispy, tastless) soap opera. (Anti)climactic ending: tomorrow.
Lessons we learned...
... and that obscurantist zealots will still try anything--up to and including death threats--to attempt to stifle ridicule, and keep a laughable absurdity wrapped in its protective veil of cloying sanctity.
And that sometimes, they still fail.
Gobear, yes he has the right to mock our views. But having a right and exercising it are two different things. My niece has a stuffed bunny that she loves. If you walked up to her with the same kind of bunny and tore its head off she was cry and be very upset. You have the right to do that. But would any decent human being do so? I don't think so. People would think you were an insane nutcase who hated children. Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should.
No one's views deserve respect just because they hold them. People deserve to be treated with a certain minimal respect, but views only deserve to be treated with as much respect as they are demonstrably worth.
Do you really think that the views of the KKK deserved respect? That the murderers of civil rights workers deserved to have their hatred respected? Really?
Fr. J.
You repeatedly refused to answer this in the last thread you trolled into, conveniently, so I'll ask you agian:
Of all of the things that have been done in this incident, the persons who actually committed real acts and threats of violence belong to which group?
And don't qualify or pontificate or attempt to absolve the behavior. Just answer the question or shut up and go away.
"Craig, you don't think the flag is a symbol? You don't think symbols have power? I don't believe that. "
I think I pretty clearly said that symbols DO have power. In the minds of the stupid and dangerous.
Fr J, when you church stops preaching every fucking day that I deserve eternal torture simply for not thinking what you think, THEN maybe you can say something to me.
Until then, it just increases your hypocrisy and makes you more of an asshole.
Your church is a still for liquid hatred fueled by millions of burning corpses.
I'll bet you've been awaiting this occasion with great anticipation for quite a while, Prof. Myers.
Don't worry; the movie is even better than advertised.
Father J. Your analogy implicitly tells us that you think that Catholics are little children.
The most amazing thing just happened! I can literally see every single one of the next thousand posts in this thread as though they've already been written!
You skeptics were all wrong... psychic powers do exist. I can see the future!
Wailing about causing pain is an ironic thing for a right-wing orthodox catholic to do, seeing as how they so enjoy causing it in the world.
If SECULAR HUMANISM has so much hate as I see in these comments, then you can keep it to yourself...I am just not interested in hating anyone.
Posted by: Kristina | July 23, 2008 4:03 PM
blah blah blah
@Fr. J: He didn't disrupt it. He took it out of his mouth and then the christians went apeshit (to say the least) about it. And I'm sure we'd LOVE to see you at atheist meetings, it would certainly be hilarious.
The bigotry we have experienced by you is... Well geeze, read the damn book. If your so-called atheists murdered 100 million people (care to give the list of THAT?), your god has murdered way more with his floods and genocide described in the book. Of course, they most likely did not happen since it's all crazy shit but you know, you guys believe it did.
I checked your log... In fact I bet someone here has the link to that great article where that guy counted the deaths God caused in the bible.
And if you believe we did something wrong... How about Lot, mmm? Righteous Lot they called him, the only righteous person in the whoooooooole city, sodom was it? Your lord saved him and only him since he was such a straight guy. Instead of letting the folks rape the angels, he went "Hey, guys, please. Don't rape my guests... Rape my daughters instead!"
It's a simple, tiny example of how your religion is a bigotry.
Let's not talk about the many ones I forget because there are too many to remember. God asking Abraham to kill his son (And go "psyche!", thankfully, but still, the guy was gonna KILL HIS SON), the egyptian firstborns, various instances of stoning, the plagues God sends on HIS OWN PEOPLE, break sabbath and die (hey, did you work on Sunday recently, father?), killing gays, aaah, I can't just list them all there's so many.
A really nasty thunderstorm just picked up outside! Professor, what have you done?! You've doomed us all!
"i'll prey for you!!!!"
Another death threat ???
#64 Michelle, you don't have the right to go in to Mass and take the Eucharist or disrupt worship in any way. It is illegal.
Um, how is receiving the jezit disruptive? and how is walking out of a building with something of very little monetary value THAT HAS FREELY BEEN GIVEN TO YOU illegal?
"PZ you were a jerk to me and my beliefs! By desecrating that cracker, you actually physically hurt me. I also can no longer practice my religion, because a single cracker has been hurt!!
PZ these death threats are nothing it is quite obvious YOU ARE A BIGOT!!"
@ #14: Sandi, what you could learn from "Prof. Meyers' circus", is to read and understand how that circus began, namely with death threats to a student, because he showed a 'consecrated' communion wafer to a friend, rather than swallowing it.
As for me, you can believe all day long that the wafer was a 'he' rather than an 'it', but when you or other believers go public with this belief, you may learn that a lot of people will not treat it with deference.
Why not? Just read the doctrinal wafer texts and ask yourself what exactly they demand you to believe. Then find a good reason for why one should not consider those who do believe in the doctrine to be selectively insane.
Craig, millions of corpses have burned for atheism. Do you plan to renounce it?
free, I figured that someone would say that. Do you deliberately want to avoid the real point?
celtic, I didn't see your post among the dozens that attacked me for disagreeing with atheist bigotry. My regrets. I can't answer every insult thrown at me. There have been no valid death threats, we have gone over that before. PZ is going to the movies and is not in fear of his life from Catholics. But if I were to say Mass in an atheist country, say China, I would be in danger. I hope that answers you. If it doesn't then you really don't want an answer.
Kristina, better run away from the hatred, to the safety of your church where they preach EVERY WEEK that anyone who doesnt think like they do is immoral, evil and deserves eternal torture.
I mean, sure, they may be saying that billions of people deserve to be roasted on a spit for eternity - but at least they aren't smashing a cookie or tearing a sacred bedsheet or something.
We'll hold the fort down until you get back.
Enjoy the movie.
While I don't condone Myer's efforts at self-agrandizement, and while I am Catholic, I can certainly withstand his sacriligious gesture toward my faith. On the other hand, truthfully, it's not the Catholics he should be wary of. His efforts to appear to do the "ethical" thing and avoid the tag of hypocrit by including the Quran in his idiotic gesture is an unnecessary prodding of the Muslim zealots who are most certainly aware of this lunacy. And his comment to Bill Donohue " Thanks, Donohue, for reinforcing prejudice about Muslims" is so laughable insofar as he is doing exactly that toward Catholics. I guess the degree of bigotry on his part is proportional to his overall cowardice. Myer's... your ego is out of control.
I didn't see your post among the dozens that attacked me for disagreeing with atheist bigotry. My regrets. I can't answer every insult thrown at me.
oooh...pulling out the long-suffering martyr card. he must be getting hard and tingly.
I don't go to atheist meetings and disrupt them either.
And yet here you are.
The bigotry I have seen and experienced here is equivalent to burning a cross in a black persons yard.
Burnign a cross in a black person's yard constitutes an implicit threat of immediate physical harm to that person. Playing with a cracker in one's own home is not a threat to anyone.
You are the bigot not me.
Again, you seem not to understand the definition of bigotry, which is an unreasonable prejudice against a class of persons. If PZ argued for taking health insurance away from Catholics, or denying them jobs or homes, then he'd be guilty of bigotry. (Of course Catholics have lobbied to deny jobs and homes to gay people, and to keep employers form giving them health insurance). Mocking a belief is not bigotry. Have you ever laughed at astrology or Tarot card reading? Then you are as guilty as you claim PZ to be.
Atheists have murdered over 100 million people in the last century and continue to do so.
No, totalitarian governments did that. Totalitarian governments substitute their leaders as religious figures to be worshipped, so it's nonsensical to call a state that practices the cult of personality "atheist".
At last the cracker got it! Bravo PZ, for exposing religious rituals for what they truly are. Truck loads of HORSESHIT.
Fatwa envy! I saw it coming. I saw it through time!
My niece has a stuffed bunny that she loves. If you walked up to her with the same kind of bunny and tore its head off she was cry and be very upset. You have the right to do that. But would any decent human being do so?
Again with the sacredity blanket. Pitiful.
Sandi, What lessons can we learn from Prof. Meyers' circus?
1) That we should be intolerant of people who believe in God;
Nope, but their silly beliefs deserve as much credit in today's world as astrology.
2) That we should be hate-filled bigots;
Hate is a tricky word, Sandi. Most good people do not hate religion, they hate what religion does to people. When you see the vitriol that is spewed from the mouths of 10 year old children, only because of indoctrination into an extreme view of the world, It saddens people. (some consider the religious indoctrination of children a form of mental abuse.. myself included)
3) That we should intentionally insult Catholics and feign surprise when they get angry about it;
Do you feel that you are insulting Hindus when you eat a hamburger? No, because it doesn't mean anything to you, like a cracker or a splinter from the "one true cross" or an image of The Virgin Mary on a slice of toast matters to us. When you start putting spiritual meanings on everyday objects, it makes you look more silly than we already think you are.
4) That we should treat other people with disrespect;
Show us why any religion deserves respect. Organized religion does not deserve any respect. Organized religions as a whole, produce the most intolerant, bigoted, hateful, superstitious, and dumb people on the planet. Why? Because they "believe" that they are right, people of authority tell them what to think, to have "God" on their side. Learning the truth about something doesn't even change their minds, because they "know" the truth. So, I will even argue that religion stunts the growth of the human mind, and our natural curiosity.
And to finish, Sandi, religions don't care about you, they care about continuing to exist, and to keep you giving them your money... ie, The Bottom Line. Religion has always feared having the curtain being drawn back, and the public being able to see the truth. From the earliest Shaman tricks being disproven, to Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Darwin, Einstein.. and it will never end. It's never a worry about the challenging of belief to them, they move and adapt with the times, it's the challenging of their authority and power over people that makes them put together silly organizations like the Discovery Institute, and put together silly propaganda pieces. God is an idea that used to explain everything that we couldn't. The idea gets weaker when things are explained in a more thought out, rational, and logical way.
Remember this when you speak of Christianity and its God.
If you don't believe in him and his son, and kiss his ass every week, and follow all his rules, you will burn in HELL for all eternity.
But he is a LOVING God.
Fr J, you of course know that Stalin didnt kill millions IN THE NAME of or for the CAUSE of atheism.
But you're a liar and a vile sick fuck so you'll say that over and over.
Please, Fr J, flee from this cracker crunching hatred and return to your safe, holy house of "everyone who isn't cathlic will BURN!!!" and "fucking altar boys isn't so bad really."
Right a nice sermon about how the vast majority of people who aren't Catholic are terrible haters and will be sent by your loving god to be tortured for eternity.
Sick fuck.
Read more. Read what actually started this "circus". PZ didn't just sit down at his blog one day thinking, "what can I do to piss off the Catholics?" No, he read a news story about a college student being outrageously persecuted by the RCC and the Catholic League over a very minor infraction of a religious ritual. It was this completely over-the-top reaction by Bill Donohue that PZ decided to comment on with the hyperbole of "If you call that desecration, I'll show you real desecration". It was the inability of the Catholics to understand hyperbole and satire that resulted in this "circus".
And if any respect is "missing" it is because the actions of the Catholics towards Webster Cook deserve none. It is not just neither side lacking respect, the Catholics acted disgracefully and so the got the disrepect they so richly deserve.
By the way, PZ, I don't get your priorities.
Surely yammering on about a cracker has to be at the top of anyone's priorities. I mean, judging by the numbers of posts...
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Hey religious people,
If one of you lit a portrait of Dr. Richard Dawkins on fire, I can almost guarantee you there would not be an uproar in the atheist community. Why can't you get over yourselves in a similar fashion? Go ahead, take a big dump on an autographed picture of Christopher Hitchens. It's called liberty.
Sane people don't get so bent out of shape over such symbolic crap.
Fr J Said:
"yes he has the right to mock our views. But having a right and exercising it are two different things. My niece has a stuffed bunny that she loves. If you walked up to her with the same kind of bunny and tore its head off she was cry and be very upset. You have the right to do that. But would any decent human being do so? I don't think so."
The difference is, that little bunny doesn't breed hatred and bigotry along with oppression of progressive and reasonable thinking.
When you go to Mass and receive the Eucharist is is part of the service. To take it for nefarious purposes IS disruptive. The law protects religious expression, see the 1st amendment. You do not have the right to turn a worship service into a vehicle for your protests.
Michelle, Stalin 30 million, Mao 50 million, Pol Pot 3 million-there is 83 million right there. So now attack the atheists, I would like to see that. Oh and take a moment to calm down, you are hyperventilating.
My guess is that the surprise entry is a symbol of science or secular humanism just to emphasize the point that nothing is sacred. (Literal iconoclasm of anything is not my style; just trying to see things from PZ Myers' perspective.)
The Dark Knight is a terrific movie, as good as the hype. Even so, I had to watch an Adam West Batman clip on YouTube afterwards so its levity could take some of the edge off what I just saw.
@Fr. J: STOP bashing the "ATHEISTS KILLED MILLIONS LALALALA" nail, it's not working. Killing someone is a result of insanity and a complete lack of morals, or a war (Holy ones too). Christians killed in the crusades, muslims keep fighting with Israel, Israel fights with muslims, the death tolls are rising on EVERY side, EVERY day.
Just because a few leading murderers have no god doesn't mean that atheism is murder. If you keep hitting that nail, we'll keep pointing out that your side is just as fucking bloody! It's PRAISED IN YOUR IMAGINARY BOOK and you KILLED MILLIONS in recorded history!
Disrupt yes, recieve a cracker no. Once given it is yours.
No sir and your apparently incapable of seeing the difference. If someone thinks your belief is bullocks that is an opinion. Hating a black person is an absurd analogy because well 1. they are born black 2. belief in a cracker being sacred is an indoctrinated absurd belief. The fact you equate them says far more about your lack of rationality than anything else.
Really 100 million huh? Of course atheists fired all those bullets and dropped all those bombs. I'm sure you mean Hitler while ignoring the fact that his mostly theist soldiers pulled the triggers.
Be at least a little objective and honest.
Please provide evidence to back up your claim. Remember that you don't automatically get to say that every religious person who was killed in a Communist country by their government was killed for atheism since that claim is clearly untrue.
The real point is that you don't tell children that Santa does not exist, but you don't expect adults to believe in him. Your analogy tells us that you think your flock is incapable of thinking or understanding reality.
Fr J, you pull out your cowardly and disgusting "criticizing my ideas is bigotry" bullshit.
If criticizing your ideas is bigotry, how is YOUR criticizing atheism not bigotry?
How is every sermon in the Catholic church not bigotry then?
Of course they aren't, and you know it. You're just a craven coward.
At #94: Someone hasn't been paying very good attention, has he?
Bill Donohue, or at least his cronies, are under the delusion that a lot of Muslims are going to violently attack PZ, which highlights their prejudice that Muslims are a violent people.
It's also quite obvious that YOU are an ignorant bigot, for warning PZ about the violent Muslims who are going to attack him.
Funnily enough, it's been the Catholics who PZ has been receiving hate mail and [i]death threats[/i] from.
You're an idiot, Chrisb, and through your lack of understanding of the situation, your ignorance of the death threats your catholic buddies have sent, and bigotry towards Muslims, you've made it very obvious. Read what's going on, or get the hell out.
"I'll pray for you."
Fr. J,
Let's assume for a moment that you have a point (which you don't). Stalin, Hitler, Mao, etc., were all motivated by their atheism to acquire power, kill, maim, and oppress.
You still have no evidence that your god exists. Sorry, thanks for playing though.
To those who keep trotting out the Hindu hamburger non-parallel:
Cows are sacred to Hindus. Not all cows are Hindu property, acquired only in Hindu precincts, to be entrusted into the exclusive care of other Hindus.
If it's MY cow, born and bred outside Hindu property, I can't help it that Hindus regard it as sacred. My eating my hamburger has *nothing to do* with their beliefs, in a way that Myers cannot say regarding his present actions. If Hindu beliefs didn't exist, I would still eat my burger; that they do exist doesn't deter me. I'm not doing it to spite them, I'm doing it from a point of view that their beliefs to me are neither here nor there.
By contrast, Catholic belief is not "neither here nor there" to Myers. If Catholic belief did not exist, Myers would never have threatened to do this in the first place, whereas I would still be eating my hamburger if Hindu belief didn't exist.
We are not talking here about Myers's freedom to eat his own crackers over the objections of others. We are talking about (a) entering private property on false pretenses (attending a Catholic Mass for the express purpose of purloining a consecrated host), (b) theft (the host is only given to practicing Catholics to be consumed on the spot), and (c) deliberate incitement.
On the last point, Myers' threat was not to "eat the cracker," but to "joyously desecrate" it, presumably by actions to which he would not ordinarily submit ordinary crackers. Also, his threat was not to do this just in the privacy of his home or office, or even on the street or in a public place. It is to film himself doing it in order to post the images on the Internet, for the sole purpose of attacking Catholicism.
The parallel doesn't hold.
Incidentally, I understand that earlier this week Myers did an interview on Catholic radio in which he expressed willingness to return the consecrated host(s) if some Catholic prelate were to make a statement condemning those who had written death threats or threatened to lobby to have him fired, as well as the tactics of Catholic League president Bill Donohue.
This despite Myers's previous statements that he wouldn't "be tempted to hold it hostage (no, not even if I have a choice between returning the Eucharist and watching Bill Donohue kick the pope in the balls...)". In effectively offering to "ransom" it, that's precisely what he did. (Only the ransom changed from Donohue kicking the pope to a bishop kicking Donohue.)
@ Fr. J.
Nope... it wasn't an answer, you coward. Just as I expected. And you knew it wasn't an answer because you felt the need to qualify it.
I'll say it one last time, unless you can own up to what was done by the catholics in this incident, own up to the physical abuse of Mr. Cook and the death threats made to PZ, then keep your lying little coward mouth shut, because you have no right to complain about anything done do the friggin cracker.
If you are that unable to recognize clear abuse on one side, what right do you have to whine about perceived abuse on the other side? Seriously.
I'm not surprised you didn't answer... it's not in you. You are a coward and a hypocrite. Go away. Now.
Fr. J: Stalin 30 million, Mao 50 million, Pol Pot 3 million-there is 83 million right there.
I've heard that thousands of times before. You're not just a stupid asshole. You're a boring stupid asshole.
Communism and Fascism are not the same as Atheism. Duh.
How many Jews were murdered by the Christians Germans in WW2?
Atheism is NOT a politcal or governmental construct.
Nevermind Fr. J you're not all that bright.
Most despots have a moustache or beard. I blame the facial hair.
Fr. J:
The Church killed millions of people in the name of your God. They killed these people because they were Jews or Muslims, or because of some sin they committed. This is called intolerance, hatred, and murder.
Stalin killed millions of people in the name of personal power. This is called corruption, hatred, greed, and murder. The fact that Stalin might have been an atheist is no more relevant than the fact that Stalin had black hair. He killed people who were religious because they represented a road-block in his plan to gain power.
No one has ever killed millions of people in the name of atheism. Many individuals have killed millions of people in the name of God.
Posted by: Glen Davidson | July 23, 2008 4:12 PM
Surely :).
Evil PZ Myers Terrorizes Little Girl! Head Ripped From Pet Bunny!!!
Oh, the inhumanity!!!! What days are these when a biologist can decapitate a stuffed rabbit in front of a little girl !?!!!
-What do you mean it didn't happen!?!! ...nevermind!
Matt @48: "I've recently realized (with reading this blog) that there's something all of you are missing:
Respect."
I don't miss it at all.
Get this, we call fundamentalists' actions stupid because they are stupid, we call their ideas crazy because they are crazy, and we call their effects on society dangerous because they are dangerous.
You can't make yourself respect something that you have no respect for,
or are you saying that we should continue to act like British aristocracy while the other side has descended into death threats and gibberish?
I'm sorry, but the least they deserve is a little mockery.
If that is too much for you, feel free to leave the internet, because this isn't stopping any time soon.
Um, a lot of people here are acting like they know what happened, but as far as I can see we don't know that yet, or even if anything happened at all. Maybe he just ate a cracker.
What utter sacrilege! How can you consider yourself to be a decent American, nay, a decent human being? You haven't seen "The Dark Knight" yet? :)
Also, something about a cracker, I don't really remember.
Gobear, yes he has the right to mock our views. But having a right and exercising it are two different things.
A rigth that cannot be exercised is not a right at all. Tolerating speech you agree with is easy; it's tolerating the right to speech of epople whose views one despises, as you despise PZ, is the true test of one's belief in freedom of speech.
My niece has a stuffed bunny that she loves. If you walked up to her with the same kind of bunny and tore its head off she was cry and be very upset. You have the right to do that. But would any decent human being do so? I don't think so. People would think you were an insane nutcase who hated children. Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should.
Are you actually equating your belief in the Eucharist to a child's love for a stuffed toy? Seriously? You might want to rethink your metaphors.
In any event, as I pointed out to your co-religionist, you are not asking for respect. You are demanding deference, that is, you expect everyone to regard your cracker with the same religious awe that you do. You want only one voice to be available online, yours. Anyone who does not agree with you must be silenced.
Well, I for one don't. I
Miss, I fail to see virtually anything progressive or reasonable in what PZ did or what the atheists here are writing. But the point remains: what kind of person would deliberately do such a thing? Not a decent one.
Well folks, time to go make that Holy Hour. This has been enlightening. I am sorry I don't have enough faith or hate to be an atheist. You have certainly confirmed my opinion of what atheism does to otherwise normal people. You turn into fanatics who seem incapable of argument. I wish you all the best and hope that you will regain your sense of sanity. Cheers.
Well anyway, PZ took an actual, real, transubstantiated slice of your all-powerful creater of the universe, and did with it what he would.
And your god was defenseless (which you knew because if you didn't, you would have just ignored it and let Jeebus defend himself)
Seems to me like your god is a wuss.
yeah but that has to do with government style not atheism. Atheists in America are not preventing you from doing the same.
chrisb- your not to bright:
PZ is doing nothing toward catholics-nothing. Outside of simply saying a cracker is a cracker and then watching you folks embarrass your selves and your sect.
Donohue is saying muslims are violent killers without control. Big HUGE freaking difference.
Fr. J: And you are feverish with delirious babbles.
I can't be arsed to find the counts but let's go! Crusades, inquisitions, witchhunts, murders of heretics, murders of jews, honor killings, christian scientists, murdered abortionists, the folks that killed the natives here, and a guy I found named Larry Hooper.
Just a few. They add up to a lot I bet.
Surprise entry, eh?
Hrm.
The only Jewish equivalent I can think of would be to desecrate a Torah scroll, but those cost thousands of dollars and it seems to be a waste to shell out that kind of cash for some simple run-of-the-mill desecration. Trashing a chumash (the mass-produced book version) just doesn't have the same effect.
Maybe PZ danced a jig inside a Mormon temple or something. :)
"Craig, you don't think the flag is a symbol? You don't think symbols have power? "
WAIT! WAIT! It's not a symbol! It not! It's actual 100% Godflesh!
Oh, you'll burn in hell for saying this for sure, you heretic!
"Yes, the sad little cracker has met its undignified end, so stop pestering me. The cracker, the koran, and another surprise entry have been violated and are gone."
"The guttural voice, the voice of Satan in his pride, boasted to Our Lord: "I can destroy your Church."
The gentle voice of Our Lord: "You can? Then go ahead and do so."
Satan: "To do so, I need more time and more power."
Our Lord: "How much time? How much power?"
Satan: "75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those who will give themselves over to my service."
Our Lord: "You have the time, you will have the power. Do with them what you will."
My oracular vision confirms that Fr. J is not, in fact, leaving. He will continue to post here.
A belief that can drive people to commit acts of assault and make threats of death is abelief that deserves no respect. Such a belief is an indication of fundamentally flawed thinking, and I applaud those who have brought this to our attention.
Gobear, yes he has the right to mock our views. But having a right and exercising it are two different things.
A right that cannot be exercised is not a right at all. Tolerating speech you agree with is easy; it's tolerating the right to speech of people whose views one despises, as you despise PZ, is the true test of one's belief in freedom of speech.
My niece has a stuffed bunny that she loves. If you walked up to her with the same kind of bunny and tore its head off she was cry and be very upset. You have the right to do that. But would any decent human being do so? I don't think so. People would think you were an insane nutcase who hated children. Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should.
Are you actually equating your belief in the Eucharist to a child's love for a stuffed toy? Seriously? You might want to rethink your metaphors.
In any event, as I pointed out to your co-religionist, you are not asking for respect. You are demanding deference, that is, you expect everyone to regard your cracker with the same religious awe that you do. You want only one voice to be available online, yours. Anyone who does not agree with you must be silenced.
Well, I for one don't believe in the cracker. How fortunate for me that you cannot have me burned at the stake as you surely would do if the Inquisition were still in business.
Wanting to show it to his buddy, who was curious about the ceremony, is now "nefarious"?
Cool.
What if nobody knows you're being nefarious? So, you know, nothing happens. No disruptions, no assaults or death threats by desecrated Catholics (which is the disruptive part, by the way). What then? Is it still "disruptive"?
@ #80
Good point, freelunch. Why else would priests want to be addressed as "father"? How often in my churchy years have I heard the admonition to "believe like the children"?
It looks like the Church depends on the infantilisation of its members.
No one fucks with the Jesus!
man are you one confused fella. The atheists I know hate very few if any. You have been fed a bad bill of goods and clearly can't see an argument despite your face. Saying others should regain their sanity is rich in light of your 'thoughts'.
"maybe he just ate a cracker"
No, he said he wouldn't do that, because the moral Catholics threatened to send him poisoned wafers.
"I am sorry I don't have enough faith or hate to be an atheist."
But you ARE an atheist. The Pope is an atheist. That's right, you both know exactly what it is like to be an atheist with respect to the thousands of other gods mankind has produced over the years. You're an atheist with respect to Odin, Krishna, Poseidon, etc. Guess what, there isn't any better evidence that the Abrahimic God exists. Pointing that out isn't hateful.
It seems that the theistic trolls have made up their minds about PZ's motives, methods, and personality without bothing to look for any evidence to support their point of view. But at least theists don't do that about any major decisions which effect their lives!
Did a gang of masked Pharyngulites turn up outside your presbytery and desecrate crackers in such a manner as to threaten you, then tie you to the back of a pickup truck by your head and drag your body five miles down the road until your head came off at the dog collar?
Once again, your obscene analogy is stomach-churning. Shame on you.
You haven't offered any reason for us to accept your claim. I'm sorry that you worship a God that is incapable of protecting itself, but I'm not the one who decided to worship such a thing.
I would also like to vote that PZ leaves the method of desecration unknown. Don't give away the secret PZ! The magic is in now knowing!
Well folks, time to go make that Holy Hour. This has been enlightening. I am sorry I don't have enough faith or hate to be an atheist. You have certainly confirmed my opinion of what atheism does to otherwise normal people. You turn into fanatics who seem incapable of argument. I wish you all the best and hope that you will regain your sense of sanity. Cheers.
Says the man who considers a capricious, genocidal torturer "loving."
Ironically, the swastika is a sacred symbol to Hindus, Buddhists, and Jains — which last are far more dedicated to living lives that do no harm to others than Christians are.
Actually, they didn't die for atheism. They died for politics. Since the politics they died for are not mine, I see no need to renounce them — although I will most certainly denounce them.
However, millions have most certainly burned for Christianity. Do you plan to renounce Christianity?
Cross burning is an implicit threat of violence against blacks. So far, the only ones who have threatened physical violence against actual people in l'Affaire Cracker are Catholics.
It is emblematic of the issue that you can't seem to distinguish between real threats against people and symbolic actions against ideas.
Where's woot?
Damn me. I just defecated myself. Er, desecrated.
I suspect that PZ did something very mundane with the crackers and Koran. Something that even the Catholics and Muslims will have a hard time pretending that they're offended at. But of course they'll still try.
Then i could be wrong.
Relevant definitions from dictionary.com:
re·spect
-noun
3.esteem for or a sense of the worth or excellence of a person, a personal quality or ability, or something considered as a manifestation of a personal quality or ability: I have great respect for her judgment.
4.deference to a right, privilege, privileged position, or someone or something considered to have certain rights or privileges; proper acceptance or courtesy; acknowledgment: respect for a suspect's right to counsel; to show respect for the flag; respect for the elderly.
5.the condition of being esteemed or honored: to be held in respect.
9.to hold in esteem or honor: I cannot respect a cheat.
10.to show regard or consideration for: to respect someone's rights.
11.to refrain from intruding upon or interfering with: to respect a person's privacy.
The whole point of this is that Catholic beliefs do not deserve privilege, deference, esteem, honor or consideration. And PZ has not interfered with anyone's rights. Stop bringing up respect because Catholicism does not deserve any definition of it that it has not been given.
"I will of course make a Holy Hour of Reparation for PZ's hateful and bigoted acts."
Wow. So if I were to disrespect a cracker, could I keep you busy for a whole hour too? Killer.
For the life of me, I just can't understand why, if someone is so easily manipulated, they would go around yelling it to anyone who hears. It's almost as if...they want their buttons pressed. Weird.
Rob:
"But he is a LOVING God."
TREMBLE AT THE MIGHT OF THE LOVING GOD!
-Ennis 49:14
I just want to make an observation at this point.
Does anyone notice that the religious trolls almost never want to engage the substantive issues of faith vs. skepticism? They devote 90% of their time whining about how mean or hateful we are. I think this speaks to the profound weakness of religious claims.
These meta issues about which side is meaner or nastier aren't really interesting. We win on the core arguments.
Fr.J@31,
You mean you had to wait for PZ to announce the cracker-doom? God didn't send you a special message alerting you? The fabric of reality didn't tremble when his vermiform appendix was swept into the trash? How disappointing for you!
I've always wondered if I once committed an act of unintended blasphemy at a highway rest stop. I had stopped with my dog, took her over to the "pet area" to do her nasty business, and as she was crapping away, I turned and saw a muslim family by their van, in prayer, bowing in the direction of me and my squatting pooch.
Was that blasphemous? I really don't know. And I really didn't care. She had to go, that was the pet area, and let the chips (heh) fall where they may.
Christie, he didn't have the guts to do it that way. But my analogy is correct. He did this publicly. I am sure it will be on youtube.
I'm sure it will too. But see, the thing about the internet is that you have a choice whether or not to view or read anything. The internet is more geared toward personal choice and selection than even TV or radio, because there is no flipping through channels by which you might accidentally see or hear something that offends you.
PZ is not doing this in a public square, he is writing about it on his own blog, which people voluntarily visit and read. Yes, The Act, whatever it is, will probably end up on a media aggregate like YouTube, and people will have to go voluntarily seek it out there. It's not going to pop up on a big screen TV over the altar at Mass.
You, for instance, continue to seek out this blog. How did you even become aware of The Act? Was it by visiting and reading PZ's blog?
Craig, millions of corpses have burned for atheism. Do you plan to renounce it?
Other have already discussed this canard, but I just wanted to register my initial "HUH?" Atheism is not a world view, nor is it a political position, nor is it even a cause. It's the absence of a belief in the existence of a deity. I couldn't renounce it if I tried, in much the same way that I cannot renounce my absence of a belief in fairies and unicorns. I imagine you don't believe in unicorns either. Do you?
"What if nobody knows you're being nefarious? So, you know, nothing happens. ... What then? Is it still "disruptive"?
Of course it is. The threat that it has happened before and may happen again at any time in any church is a disruption to every Mass.
When and where it does happen, it is theft.
Originally posted by me:
If we all can't just respect each others views, what is America all about?
Craig #69:
Should NAMBLA member's views be respected? Not their right to them, but the views themselves?
freelunch #76:
Do you really think that the views of the KKK deserved respect? That the murderers of civil rights workers deserved to have their hatred respected? Really?
So you two turning around the argument have just compared Catholics/religious types to NAMBLA, the KKK, and murders.
Nice. You know that's not what I meant. But somehow you are so jaded or frightened by what the majority of Americans believe in that you automatically snap-hook into a defensive posture.
Lead by example...If your intent is to win an argument (or win people over) do so in a manner that's not dispicable.
Rjb, maybe they weren't muslim. Maybe they were dog worshipers.
Or shit worshipers.
Atheists have murdered over 100 million people in the last century and continue to do so.
Atheists have killed, but not for their non-belief in a god or gods. Religious people have killed, maimed and tortured people simply for thinking differently to themselves. Sometimes they even did it to those people that thought exactly the same way (look at the Inquisition).
Many of them are believers.
Ummm... How can atheists be believers? An atheist is a non-believer by definition.
Craig, you don't think the flag is a symbol? You don't think symbols have power? I don't believe that. Do you wear a swastika? It is just a few lines, so no one will mind right?
Do symbols have power? No, they don't. If someone didn't know the connection between a swastika and Nazis then it is simply an decoration of ancient (and some modern) buildings.
A counter-question: If a symbol is used for two purposes, who has claim to that symbol? The one using it first, or the one that uses it the most?
One example - take a vertical line. Now take a second line, and bisect it horizontally in the middle. Try to keep the two lines the same length. This is the same symbol on the wafers we were given when I went to church. Got that symbol in mind? Now - what is it? Is it a Catholic/Christian Cross, or an symbol denoting addition? And I believe maths can claim prior usage and popularity on that symbol...
PZ did this because he knows the power of symbols and he wanted to hurt other people. That seems to bother no one here.
Who exactly did he hurt? The Catholic church has hurt me plenty in the past. Then again, I am something the church hates - an intelligent, free thinker who didn't accept their fairy tales at face value and asked questions when I didn't understand. Because of this I would be ridiculed, put down and slapped. So tell me - who is worse here: PZ or the nuns who taught me scripture in school?
PZ is going to the movies and is not in fear of his life from Catholics.
Actually, he is in danger of his life from Catholics who have been sending himn death threats through e-mail. Pay attention.
But if I were to say Mass in an atheist country, say China, I would be in danger.
Not true. You have a 1950s mindset. Mao has been dead for 30 years, and China is not the Red menace that Americans think that it is. I've taught English in China, and religion is thriving there. Catholics attend Mass regularly and are not bothered by the government in any way. Falun Gong, however, is definitely illegal in China because they crossed the line and got involved in politics. The PRC government lets the people do what they want as long as they don't threaten the government's authority. Falun Gong flexed its muscle and got smacked down for it.
I'm not in any way defending the PRC because the government is grossly incompetent and corrupt, but they don't throw you in jail for going to Mass.
DEAR CRAIG, I don't go to church. Why do you think that I go to church? Wait...is it because I said that I don't hate anyone? Ha ha ha...that is so funny and stupid at the same time.
This just made my day:
At work I have a friend who is an atheist. We discuss (and debate) a lot about everything from movies to politics to religion.
For the past two days we've been talking about Myers's threat to desecrate the Eucharist. For a long time, he didn't see why it was a big deal.
Today, he wrote me an email saying, "I see your point." ... and when I wrote to him mentioning that Myers had gone through with it, he wrote back, "FWIW, I'm sorry that he did this."
OK, so we'll get one more post explaining whatever mundane fate these objects met, and Bill Donohue will spit out a press release in response. . . and then this whole fucking mess will be over?
At Father J @
In other words, waste another hour you could have spent eliminating your strawman view of atheists.
I almost think it would have been interesting to show a wafer being desecrated WITHOUT confirming or denying that it was, in fact, consecrated. After all, according to what we've heard so far, that means that the video could be one of two entirely different acts: a simple mutilation of a bit of cardboardy bread, or a heinous act of blasphemy.
I wonder how many people would drive themselves nuts trying to figure out which it was?
Alternatively, announcing that it was consecrated, awaiting the inevitable sturm-und-drang, and then revealing that it was, in fact, NOT consecrated, could also be interesting.
"So you two turning around the argument have just compared Catholics/religious types to NAMBLA, the KKK, and murders."
Well, I didn't intend a direct comparison, but it actually fits a little better than you should feel comfortable with.
Anyway, you are intentionally missing the point. You are saying that ideas must be respected.
By saying that NAMBLA members' ideas are NOT worthy of the same respect that Catholics' are, you are disproving your own argument.
You know what NAMBLA members believe, and you find their ideas unconvincing and unworthy of respect. As is your right. And we have done the same with the Catholics' ideas.
Are you arguing that SOME ideas must be respected and others not? If so, why do YOU get to decide which ones?
Looking at ideas and criticizing the ones you feel are harmful is not only your right, it's RIGHT.
Prediction: The third desecration will be a copy of Origin of Species.
Rjb, maybe they weren't Muslim. Maybe they were dog worshipers.
Or shit worshipers.
So Bill Donahue does have some admirers.
Fr J,
Of course it will backfire. No Catholic will lose his faith over it. No one has benefited from this, including PZ.
You say this like you can actually see the future. Please explain.
What if you're wrong? What if even one catholic abandons the faith because of this? What then, eh?
My niece has a stuffed bunny that she loves. If you walked up to her with the same kind of bunny and tore its head off she was cry and be very upset. You have the right to do that.
Er, no. PZ would have no right to do that. It would be assault and theft. Somehow you, a "canon lawyer" don't understand the basic concepts of property rights. You've been called on your shoddy legal scholarship before and continue to just make stuff up.
Hap, and others have adequately demolished you on your other points, so I won't belabor the issue.
l'Affaire Cracker
That reminds me:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Dreyfus.html
Another proud moment in Church history.
Did you have a point in there somewhere? What made him see your point?
Analogy fail. PZ did not go to you, you came here of your own accord. For someone with an IQ of 142, you're awfully inept at constructing analogies that aren't stupid.
Ideas, not persons, have been treated with disrespect here. I will never harm you in any way, or infringe on your right to believe, and say, whatever inane pathetic bullshit you want. Don't confuse contempt for ideas with contempt for the rights of the person who holds them.
I'm afraid that expecting the tiniest shred of integrity from a member of the Child-Rape Support Club is far too much to expect.
Do you know what "disruption" means? It's not what "diss" is an abbreviation for...
@ SDG
Spare us your story of your friend's miraculous, convenient conversion.
Today, he wrote me an email saying, "I see your point." ... and when I wrote to him mentioning that Myers had gone through with it, he wrote back, "FWIW, I'm sorry that he did this."
And I'm sorry that because of catholic's complete and utter loss of the ability to grasp reality or reason, this act of protest was necessary. But I'm sure that's lost on you.
No, Matt, you did that with your broad statement. I cannot get inside your head to know what you meant, so I have to take you at your word. What you said was what I disagreed with.
By the way, the RCC protected the priests who were raping children and spirited bishops like Cardinal Law who conspired to protect the priests out of the country so they could not be prosecuted. Do I have to respect their idea that bishops shouldn't be held accountable for their crimes?
At qbsmd #152:
The whole point of this is that Catholic beliefs do not deserve privilege, deference, esteem, honor or consideration. And PZ has not interfered with anyone's rights. Stop bringing up respect because Catholicism does not deserve any definition of it that it has not been given
What kind of argument is this?
So no matter what +80% of Americans believe doesn't deserve consideration (note I'm not saying +80% of America is Catholic...+80% of America believes in God). Remember, us atheists are in the minority, lest we forget. I think giving consideration and respect to what a majority of the population believes in should be afforded to them. If not, then you are kidding yourselves.
Respect has nothing to do with rights...I never said that. PZ has every right to take a cracker and do with it as he pleases.
You people are way to extreme and need to think about antognizing those who you seek to influence. All this rhetoric does is polarize positions. It doesn't do anything to help the situation.
A surprise desecration? Oh no...not your Hasselhoff poster!
Congratulations! You've done it. "It" being your duty to blaspheme once in a while so that no anti-blasphemy law or custom can settle. This really important in any civilized society.
Now, you converted me to atheism. I'm going to get myself excluded from the roman catholic church's list of believers as soon as I can go to where I was baptized. (That last sentence was no joke).
Symbols only have the power which people give them. They have no power in and of themselves. That's the point here, symbols shouldn't be given that sort of power, whether it's a wafer, koran, flag, etc.
I'm guessing the mystery item is a flag. It's a good example of a secular symbol given way more power than it should have. I happen to love my country and the freedoms I have here but I have no reverence at all for a piece of cloth.
I wonder if the phrase "will it blend?" is popular with PZ.
Prediction: The third desecration will be a copy of Origin of Species.
I certainly hope not.
Not that I'd particularly care (aside from the shame of ruining a good book), but it would give the message that "Darwinism" is viewed just like a religion, which I'm sick of hearing.
I'm rooting for a copy of Dianetics, myself.
SDG said:
Sure, you can bait and switch. There is a difference, but you cannot deny that your consumption of beef is highly offensive to many Hindus. So, as long as you drop the part about desecration being highly offensive, I'll grant you that.
The point is that Catholics won't. What they will do, though, is switch to the argument that you have laid out, once the beef analogy has been made. Which is fine, of course, but it does remove much of the power from your argument, as I will explain.
SDG said:
Ah, you see, this is where you have [almost] ruined your whole argument. PZ has said that at least one of the wafers that has been sent to him is years old.
Therefore, when it was taken the individual that took it with them had no idea that it would be used for these purposes.
That leaves your argument in tatters, I'm afraid. The most that you can argue now is that the individual that took the wafer shouldn't have done it. Fine, I say. We don't even know who it is. And you can also argue that the same individual has in some way betrayed the Catholic Church. Fine, once again. Take it up with them, if you can find out who they are.
By the way, hundreds of people have said that they have taken a wafer home with them when they used to go to mass, and for a variety of reasons. And, many people have said that they took part in all of the mass rituals, even though the Catholics present knew that they weren't Catholic, themselves.
Alternatively, announcing that it was consecrated, awaiting the inevitable sturm-und-drang, and then revealing that it was, in fact, NOT consecrated, could also be interesting.
Or, in the spirit of many, many bad television writers, we could keep yanking the chain back and forth: 'It wasn't consecrated... It was consecrated... Okay, it was consecrated, but the priest had been defrocked... But then reinstated; pope intervened... Psyche again, it was all a dream... Of PZ's evil twin...'
Has everyone watched Chris Abani's talk on ted.com yet? If not, DO SO NOW.
Chris Abani
"The Ebo used to say that they built their own gods. They would come together as a community and they would express a wish, and their wish would then be brought to a priest who would find a ritual object and the appropriate sacrifices would be made and a shrine would be built for the god. But if a god became unruly and began to ask for human sacrifice, the Ebos would destroy the god. They would knock down the shrine and they would stop saying the god's name. This is how they came to reclaim their humanity. Every day, all of us here, we're building gods that have gone rampant. It's time we started knocking them down. And forgetting their names."
At 2 hours, 40 minutes -- you're certainly giving the world a sporting chance to end!
(incidentally, the movie was AWESOME. Ledger certainly made his last role his most memorable one.)
The threat that it has happened before and may happen again at any time in any church is a disruption to every Mass.
When and where it does happen, it is theft.
What's interesting about this to me is that in some of the early threads people who grew up Catholic said that this happens all the time. The crime seems to be usually perpetrated by kids, who just don't like them.
I'm still having trouble understanding how doing something other than what was intended with something that is given to me is theft. If I give you a cookie, and you do not eat it, but instead pocket it, take it home and feed it to your dog (or other unclean animal,) and then blog about it, I may be offended that you treated something I worked hard on that way, and I will probably think you're rude and not encourage our continued friendship, but I certainly couldn't accuse you of stealing it.
"I think giving consideration and respect to what a majority of the population believes in should be afforded to them. "
Well, a majority of Americans think you're immoral for being an atheist. A majority think you should never be allowed to hold elected office. A president said, and possibly a majority would say you don't even deserve citizenship.
And you think that because they are in the majority, you should respect their opinion.
You've just voluntarily castrated yourself. You just voted yourself irrelevant. Thanks for letting us know, now we can safely ignore you.
After all, you are in the minority here.
I still have yet to see a Catholic explain why it matters if PZ desecrates their perceived body of christ cracker.
It's PZ doing it, not you. Why should you give a fuck other that to satisfy some persecution complex?
Do you think your God is going to punish you because of what PZ does? (though everything I hear about him I wouldn't put it past him)
It's really showing off your collective need to be victims and cry in public like some Jerry Springer show guest who just had their mom insulted.
I'll be glad after the sure to be 1000+ post tomorrow has come and gone and you people fade away into crazy land where you normally are.
Well, NK, its true, I haven't read the volumes of rhetoric on this blog but I think I understand Donohue's position pretty well. I also know PZ's and now yours. I certainly don't think PZ is an idiot. Cowardly, yes, and certainly an idiotic gesture from an educated individual doesn't define him as an idiot. But he lacks control over his ego and is only about self promotion. I avoid namecalling which I see as a sign of ignorance and inability to articulate a thought. Your calling me an idiot reinforces that belief.
The allusion was indeed intentional.
Maybe the surprise item is the book Dianetics. That would be cool.
I wonder exactly how making death threats over the symbol of a belief helps anyone but the one making the threats - if the cracker is converted into Jesus, and were somehow threatened, you would figure God could stand up for him quite nicely. So, that must mean that the threateners don't think God would do so - either no god exists, and they believe in the symbol and what it represents equally (which is to say, not at all), or they've decided what God should do, and are hoping to do it (or have it done, without that pesky responsibility thing), and so have decided that they ought to be God(s).
Either way, I can't really figure how the defense of death threats over communion wafers by certain Catholics is serving anyone's interest other than rabid nutcases with delusions of grandeur and intellectual sufficiency and desires for bloody and violent power. It does seem to bring both their feelings of impotence and the things they would do if they weren't impotent out into the light, though I suspect if they were smart they would have preferred to keep those things quiet until they could actually act on them.
freelunch said:
No, Matt, you did that with your broad statement.
Please go take a course or read up on logic and debating. I'm tired of debating with someone who doesn't understand simple logic structures. You can't have it both ways. It's not a tautology.
Matt: "I think giving consideration and respect to what a majority of the population believes in should be afforded to them. If not, then you are kidding yourselves."
Why?
You think following through is going to put this behind you??? All you have done is stirred people from their lethargy. Your action didn't end this. It merely created a new beginning.
I understand Donohue's position pretty well. I also know PZ's
Mmkay.
But he lacks control over his ego and is only about self promotion.
Whoops. Just contradicted the shit out of yourself there.
Funny thing- If he desecrated a picture of your mother then you would be upset. Even when it goes along with your own perception that it's just a symbol. Lets me some pictures people, lets desecrate her. Lets see how many of you are offended, but why? isn't it just a picture or does it have more meaning? Childish-absolutely childish ...PZ enjoy your gardening career. The University may have to wait for the storm to blow over, but I highly doubt that you will have a job soon. When the college loses money from parents pulling their kids out of that school and when enrollment declines- You'll be gone.
It's a straight road from the desecration of symbols to the burning of Churches and the gulag.
@ #183:
No, it would make exactly the point PZ is trying to make. A copy of the Origin is just a book, and nothing more. We don't hold the material object as sacred. It's the ideas (i.e. the truth) that matter.
You fail. Your remedial assignment is to read all of the previous posts to find out exactly why you have failed in such and epic and public way.
SC-Good link, nice job doing your research. You found 1 site that mentions "catholic hierarchy" with no information about who, or what their role was. Do a google search for Alfred Dreyfus and look at the top 6 or so hits. No other site mentions the Catholic Hierarchy. The only one I found was one that mentnioned "catholic press" which makes sense since france was at the time predominately catholic so of course the press was catholic.
"You think following through is going to put this behind you??? All you have done is stirred people from their lethargy. Your action didn't end this. It merely created a new beginning."
Wait... so you're saying that the Catholic Church, which has been losing members drastically enough that the church has been in a panic about it - is now SAVED?
PZ saved the Catholic Church? Oh shit!
Face it. The Catholic Church is losing members (as are most others in developed nations) because education kills religion.
"Ledger certainly made his last role his most memorable one."
Actually he's still going to be in one more movie. But yes he definitely lived up to the hype as the Joker.
It's a straight road from the desecration of symbols to the burning of Churches and the gulag.
... also, if you make fun of anything I hold sacred, clearly, you'll be eating babies next.
Craig said in #189:
You've just voluntarily castrated yourself. You just voted yourself irrelevant. Thanks for letting us know, now we can safely ignore you.
After all, you are in the minority here.
Again, what kind of argument is this? You don't like what I have to say to you run to some type of conclusion that isn't supported by any facts. You're logic escapes me.
It seems that you think if you shout the loudest, that you're right. Well, I'm sorry. It doesn't work that way.
chrisb #191
Cowardly, yes, and certainly an idiotic gesture from an educated individual doesn't define him as an idiot. But he lacks control over his ego and is only about self promotion. I avoid namecalling which I see as a sign of ignorance and inability to articulate a thought.
Irony... Ur doin it wrong...
Fr J: But if I were to say Mass in an atheist country, say China, I would be in danger.
Ummm... Do you actually believe this? What danger are you in? A quick search using Google turned up some interesting information, including this:
"According to the United States Department of State Annual Report on International Religious Freedom for 1999 there are 4 million followers registered with the open Catholic Church in China, 4,600 churches and 5,000 clergy (9 Sept. 1999)."
These are people openly and actively practising the Catholic Religion. There are some issues with being a Catholic in China, but there is no danger of being dragged out in the streets and tortured for a belief.
Now, I understand I said there are some issues, but what they are is something I will leave to you to research so you will understand the situation rather than parrot something you were told and you believe unconditionally.
"If he desecrated a picture of your mother then you would be upset."
Why would i be upset? To quote a girl i used to have a crush on "emotions are for pussies"
Only if you are a myopic simple minded idiot who tries to make historical references without really understanding the history he refers to.
"It's a straight road from the desecration of symbols to the burning of Churches and the gulag."
It's a fine line between clever and stupid. - Spinal Tap.
"I am sure it will be on youtube"
It already is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSsJ19sy3JI
Sorry PZ if I'm spilling the beans prematurely.
"I will never harm you in any way, or infringe on your right to believe, and say, whatever inane pathetic bullshit you want."
See this idea I like, just leave catholic people alone, let them believe what they want to believe, why start up trouble all the time???
SDG@#164:
The only thing that I would be sorry about is if he did not take the opportunity to make an art project out of the desecration. I think it would have made a good film.
Quoted from IAmNomad:
Horsefeathers. Nazis (and Communists) did precisely this.
. Bullshit, again, as Marauder quickly illustrates by his reference to the swastika. It had tremendous power over the Germans.
Two things: One, Marauder, like all other sycophants here are of the belief that the Church requires blind obedience. Nothing could be further from the truth; but as you revel in your deliberate ignorance, whatever. Keep knocking yourselves out.
And PZ is infinitely worse than your nuns.
As for the rest of you, bravo. You uphold your unparalleled collective skill at responding to rational argument with "blah blah blah" (MAJeff, a moron of long standing) and name calling.
Boy, I can't WAIT to become an atheist Pharyngulite!!!!!
"Your action didn't end this. It merely created a new beginning."
Posted by: john @ #197
I think it's about time for a "new beginning" in which we dismantle the mind-control of religion. The emperor needs to realize he wears no clothes. That doesn't mean he won't bitch and moan about it, tho.
Jesus, Matt, I'm sorry but you're truly thick.
"Surprise entry" = teaching contract? If so, here's hoping for a book deal or twelve.
[quote]
Funny thing- If he desecrated a picture of your mother then you would be upset.[/quote]
Actually, no, I wouldn't give two shits about it. I would wonder why he bothered, but no, it really wouldn't affect me.
Not because I don't love my mother, I do. I just don't see any reason to get that upset about a picture.
[quote]
Even when it goes along with your own perception that it's just a symbol. Lets me some pictures people, lets desecrate her. Lets see how many of you are offended, but why?[/quote]
Offended, no. Puzzled, yes.
[quote]
PZ enjoy your gardening career. The University may have to wait for the storm to blow over, but I highly doubt that you will have a job soon. When the college loses money from parents pulling their kids out of that school and when enrollment declines- You'll be gone.
[/quote]
So it's your theory that a financially significant portion of the 50,000 or so students of the University will be withdrawing because a professor at a satellite campuses desecrated a communion wafer.
I find that unlikely.
Fr. J,
You are a funny dude. I truly enjoyed #114 pointing out your red herring.
Lets just say you are right, as obviously ludicrous as that may be. Millions of people killed by atheism, and many millions of people killed by christianity (and many more millions by religion taken as a whole). Lets call us even on that front.
Now what?
You and I have almost the exact same set of morals (i don't think its a moral requirement to pray or praise an invisible friend). 93% of this group of posters have the exact same set of morals as 93% of the sky fairy believing wackadoos in your camp. How is it possible that I have not been carted away to jail for killing, robbing, raping...Are all these atheist posters commenting from jail?
How is it possible that your pedophile priests have not been put in jail for the most part? I'm sure the victims are happy to know that the pope will pray for them.
How is it that finding Jesus doesnt fix criminals?
I'm not saying that religion causes immorality, I'm saying that it does nothing to prevent it. Why bother?
So that explains the extra spring in my step that started today.
"See this idea I like, just leave catholic people alone, let them believe what they want to believe, why start up trouble all the time???"
Kristina, who is stopping Catholics from believing what they want to believe?
Catholics ATTACKED a kid for a minor transgression of their ceremony - PZ expressed his opinion.
Catholics responded by trying to get PZ fired, and by sending death threats.
You have got things way backwards. Nobody is trying to stop Catholics from believing what they believe - Catholics are trying to stop non-Catholics from expressing THEIR beliefs.
What lessons can we learn from Prof. Meyers' circus? 1) That we should be intolerant of people who believe in God; 2) That we should be hate-filled bigots; 3) That we should intentionally insult Catholics and feign surprise when they get angry about it; 4) That we should treat other people with disrespect. These are great life lessons. I'm sure you've imparted them to your son, Myers. Wish him a happy birthday from me. P.S. I bet God will have the last laugh.
Posted by: Sandi | July 23, 2008 3:27 PM
Hey why don't we all go around wearing swastikas near Jews and calling Blacks the "N" word? Let's offend as many people as possible. Gee, the atheist society is a very pleasant one. Instead of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," your golden rule is: "Treat others as if I am the only person who exists and the only person who matters." No God = no values. (Or, more accurately, rotten selfish values.) I repeat: you folks are a bunch of hate-filled bigots.
It occurs to me that, if the compost heap, and not the garbage for collection, was the ultimate desination of the cracker, then the Catholic Church has a fantasic opportunity to expand its ranks here.
This could be the proof of concept for converting the entire Plant Kingdom.
I'm still having trouble understanding how doing something other than what was intended with something that is given to me is theft.
Fair question. Here is my response.
Suppose during the offertory in church, an offering plate is passed down the pew, and one person, upon receiving it, leaps up and goes running out of the church with the money in his hand.
Is that theft? He was just sitting there, and another person handed him a plate of money. Nothing was said about what he was or wasn't to do with it. At no time did he commit to carry out any particular course of action with that plate, such as hand it to the next person.
However, we all know that just because a plate of money is put into someone's hands doesn't mean it is now his personal possession to dispose of as he sees fit. Within the social context of the offering ritual, there is an implicit understanding that this plate is handed to you solely to (a) put in your own offering if you choose and (b) to hand to the next person.
Likewise, within the communion ritual, when a person gets in line and goes up to stand before the priest, and the priest holds up the host and says, "The body of Christ," there is an implicit understanding that what is designated the "body of Christ" does not now become the private property of the recipient. It is placed in his hand (or on his tongue) for one purpose only, to be consumed on the spot.
To go up for communion with any other purpose is as much theft as taking the communion plate with the intention of running out of church with it.
you'll be eating babies next.
Fetuses! I get a weekly delivery from a local PP.
"'Atheists have killed, but not for their non-belief in a god or gods.'
'Horsefeathers. Nazis (and Communists) did precisely this.'"
Ah yes, "Gott mit uns" is such a stirring atheist phrase.
I wondered!
Mike,
I encourage you to do some more research. Offline. In a library. Using books.
I guess you know by now that GOD is punishing us all for your CD (cracker desecration) by sending a hurricane (Dolly) to KILL as many Texans and Mexicans as possible.
People who hold such silly views shouldn't be surprised when people point and laugh.
Happy Birthday to PZed junior! Funny, my birthday is tomorrow and I'm dragging my parents along to see The Dark Knight. Now I know this idea isn't so extraordinary!
Oh hell, no more crackers to crumble around! So when you do finally post it there will be ten thousand comments from every segment of the sane, insane and alien worlds! We'll be spending more time scrolling to pick out which ones to reply to that we will be monitor fixated and then pass out. But we wait with bated breath none the less! So bring it on PZ!
Fetuses! I get a weekly delivery from a local PP.
Too chewy for me. Tho' I hear deep-frying gets 'round that.
Me, I like the newborns. The toes pop like popcorn shrimp.
"Hey why don't we all go around wearing swastikas near Jews and calling Blacks the "N" word?"
Blazing Saddles? To Be or Not to Be?
Duly noted. Sandi thinks Mel Brooks is the Antichrist.
PZ is so going to lose his job-might want to get that kid in a work program soon.
kristina #214
See this idea I like, just leave catholic people alone, let them believe what they want to believe, why start up trouble all the time???
sigh.
Anyone else want to make any uninformed statements about PZ starting up trouble? Or are we done making fools of ourselves?
My dear... please look up the history behind this incident before you go making claims that anyone is just "stirring up trouble" like it's some attempt to needlessly stir up those peaceful catholics who wuz just mindin they own business.
PZ, you and Donahue deserve each other. Anyway, how do you or anybody else know that you had a RC consecrated host? The world of Islam can know that you desecrated a Koran, but how can anybody know that you desecrated a RC consecrated host?
Despite Foley foolishness, you may become a threat to national security for desecrating the Koran.
And I suppose that you would consider this a negative post if I offered to pray for your safety.
You could have been considerate enough to let me finish my PhD before you ended the world... PZ. Actually you should have let me complete my PhD and get tenure...but failing that atleast finish my PhD....
Actually, it's worse even than that. The Vatican has had an official policy of concealment since 1962. As Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, none other than Pope Benedict XVI himself, then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, was responsible for its coordination and the Vatican policy of non-cooperation with law-enforcement. Since the State of the Vatican City is sovereign under international law, the Papal Nuncio is regarded as an ambassador and his official office/residence in a country is subject to the diplomatic doctrine of extraterritoriality. In several countries, the Roman Catholic Church has concealed documentary evidence of child rape by storing documents in the Papal Nuncio's residence, out of reach of any search warrant.
That Fr. J, a member of this international child-rape mafia, should so sanctimoniously lecture us about "respect" and unctuously condescend to us about our behaviour is vile and contemptible.
He is a professor. The cracker is supposedly Jesus.
@Nobody: Yes, the Nazis that bring out such atheist statements as
"...Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirt of unity and cooperation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life." - Adolph Hitler
Too chewy for me. Tho' I hear deep-frying gets 'round that.
Prepare them like you would a soft-shell crab. (Man, I make a great fetal spider roll)
I'd just like to say; I read this post right after watching some Zeropunctuation and PZ's words sound great with Yahtzee's delivery.
That is all.
James, that's sort of the point, isn't it? Here we have a large group of people insisting that the consecration is critical--that it turns a bit of bread into a symbol so powerful that it justifies threats of violence and death and eternal damnation--and they have absolutely no way of telling which one got destroyed.
The rage and threats are over something that they have no way of knowing ever happened. PZ himself probably has no way of knowing for sure whether that wafer was consecrated. I wouldn't put it past him to have done as I proposed: "desecrate" an unconsecrated wafer and then let people rail about it for a while before pointing out that it was a bit of bread after all, even by their standards.
Craig #218 said:
Jesus, Matt, I'm sorry but you're truly thick.
The last recourse of someone who can't sustain an argument is to call the other person a name.
And so ends the discussion. Thanks for proving my point, Craig.
"Despite Foley foolishness, you may become a threat to national security for desecrating the Koran."
Are you really that dumb? Have you really bought into the "be skeered of the moozlims" bullshit?
I'm not saying that muslim fundamentalists aren't scary murdering sickos... but it's not really that much of a problem HERE.
I mean, for fucks sake - you can't listen to American TV or radio for 5 straight minutes without hearing the muslim religion insulted. Has Fox News been suicide bombed yet?
Matt:
You are the one that is logically challenged. You have backed off from the original assertion [which was that we should respect the beliefs of others] because, quite correctly, it was pointed out that it means that we have to respect some pretty vile beliefs.
Then you attempted to move the goalposts by changing it to popular beliefs [which doesn't necessarily alter the fact that some pretty popular beliefs are still vile].
Now you are complaining about the fact that craig pointed out that the vast majority of people, who you claim we should respect, wouldn't ever vote for an atheist.
Admittedly, there are many views about how we can move the Overton Window [even on this very site], and you appear to disagree with our view. That's fine, but you cannot [unless you are dishonest] deny that atheism has been elevated in to the mainstream, and it wasn't achieved with respect.
I'm afraid that the evidence is pretty conclusively on our side, although I will admit that there are degrees of disrespect, and some will be more effective than others.
39, 60, 122 - I love you. Great posts, all.
*gnashes teeth ferociously and uncontrollably*
And I suppose that you would consider this a negative post if I offered to pray for your safety.
Not negative. Just irrelevant.
CRAIG, by leaving them alone I meant from the START. This was fun for a while, but I got to go my mother is home...crap...
Prepare them like you would a soft-shell crab. (Man, I make a great fetal spider roll)
Fetal sushi's supposed to be pretty good, too. There's this nice mixed fish one where you layer the fetus with Roe. I think it's called a Roe v. Roe.
Fr. J - You claim over and over that PZ's motivation in this is to hurt people and then you wonder why your intelligence is questioned or your ideas are ridiculed.
I think the whole lot of us have evidenced a great deal of intolerance and bigotry. As a Catholic, I could not care less what atheists believe or don't. I don't prothelitize, and I don't like it when others try to save me from my beliefs (ridicule the practicing of my freedom of religion but don't then praise PZ for fighting for "freedom." Is the word that subjective?). But you're such simpletons if you don't understand why Catholics are upset that someone who does not believe in our "rituals" actively encourages the taking of one of our sacred objects under false pretenses. The Host isn't given freely, you idiots. If that were so, they'd be handed out on street corners. They are given with the express understanding that those who receive Christ (yes I said it) are doing so because they believe and because they are not in a state of mortal sin. It's quite simple. At least have the guts to admit that you're bigots and wanted to simply fuck with the Church. That I could respect more that this pussy excuse that the thing is just handed out to whomever.
Now on with the frenzy and the blah blah blahs.....PZ, thank you for finally ending this crap.
"Only if you are a myopic simple minded idiot who tries to make historical references without really understanding the history he refers to."
Much like Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion.
"... also, if you make fun of anything I hold sacred, clearly, you'll be eating babies next."
That's irrational.
The most amusing aspect of all of this for me, personally, is that Little Paul has such an overblown high opinion of himself as to believe that Catholics would be coming out of the woodwork to come and do him in--fat chance! Why waste our precious time? After all, we've got the Big Green Cookie Monster in the Sky to do that for us. And in the mean, whilst we await his eventual pathetic demise of the great Little Paul, drooling and writhing in his own excrement, we can all just sit back and watch Little Paul make a prize ass out of himself for all the world's entertainment....He really is funny, hehehe....
Happy birthday, wee Myers boy. May GOD bless you with the humility and brains your father sadly, desperately lacks!!! Prayers, hugs and kisses from all of us...what was it that Little Paul called me?...O, yes!...all us Contemptable Catholic Scum in the Flat Earth camp! We pray for you, Love.
read the accounts of the real people that were repressed under those regimes. the agenda was explicitly political, not religious. in many cases, the people being opressed were not overly religious, and the main reasons for their opression were not to do with their religion. note that all three examples you give were rabid politically-extreme institutions, who took power in the name of Marxism, or Leninism or the like - not in the name of "atheism".
there were, and are no atheist regimes which, when devoid of an extremist political stance, carry out these atrocities. on the other hand, more moderate political parties with a moderate-to-strong religious agenda are demonstrably (even nowadays) more extreme than secular goverments in their dealings.
o, and you've done nothing to demonstrate your particular version of the Abrahamic deity exists. were it the case that atheism really did entail world-destroying nihilism, that would not make gods real, it would simply make everyday life world-destroyingly nihilistic.
I would like to thank you all, deeply, for effectively capturing my attention to the point of causing me to completely neglect my duties at work.
At least have the guts to admit that you're bigots and wanted to simply fuck with the Church
I'm perfectly happy to fuck with a pedophile protection racket and civil rights denial political action committee.
lol here's another quote from the Chris Abani talk I posted in comment #186 that I think everyone here will like:
"There's no one more rabid than a Catholic convert."
#240 -"That Fr. J, a member of this international child-rape mafia, should so sanctimoniously lecture us about "respect" and unctuously condescend to us about our behavior is vile and contemptible."
That is truly a nasty thing to say. Statistically this problem is shown in the same percentage in Teaching, Physicians and every other profession. To accuse someone of such an act without any proof is disgusting. You can't argue anything outside of some vile accusation? You must have been in the Nutty Professors class- Great debating. You are a scholar, class act-
I'm with Colugo (#108)--
That strikes me as precisely P.Z.'s style. More likely science than secular humanism, though, just because it's easier to come up with a broadly recognizable symbol of science than secular humanism.
On that note, Luke O'Dell (#169) might be guessing correctly, as well.
That must explain why my hair caught fire, a dude with a big sword in a turban is chasing me and the smell of sulfur is everywhere.
Way to go PZ. You beat the Particle Accelerator.
Let's see: a smug, self-congratulatory sense of superiority, a willingness to fling insults and (perhaps jestingly) look forward to someone's death. Congratulations, Miki; very Christian of you.
"You claim over and over that PZ's motivation in this is to hurt people and then you wonder why your intelligence is questioned or your ideas are ridiculed."
Put it this way: If one imagines Catholicism reconfigured so that no one would be pained by desecration of the Eucharist -- if anyone were permitted to walk into Mass and walk out with the Eucharist for any reason, and there was no scandal, no outrage, no anger over whatever was done with it -- even if Catholic belief in the Eucharist were otherwise substantially unchanged, in such a world it is hard to imagine PZ working up such enthusiasm for this course of action.
Ah MAJeff, again with the simplistic perspective: "I'm perfectly happy to fuck with a pedophile protection racket and civil rights denial political action committee."
"Why waste our precious time? After all, we've got the Big Green Cookie Monster in the Sky to do that for us."
And yet you felt the need to respond.
To Damian in #248:
I admit that I have fallen to the trap of quick responses and not formulating my ideas into a coherent thesis. My original idea was not communicated well and for that, your assessment of the situation was spot on. Every once in a while, I need to be corrected. The manner in which you responded was more in line with what I was expecting. To that, I extend my thanks.
And your right...I may disagree with the way this group attempts to move the Overton Window. While athesism has been thrown into the spotlight, I'm not sure its for the better. Perhaps that is my deep-seeded dislike for all the posting that's going on here.
#226: I'm sure you could find a lawyer willing to take that line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, but 1) there probably aren't a whole lot of jurisdictions willing to press theft charges over (much less than) $ 500, and 2) the inherent self-parody of that court case would probably be even funnier than everything that's happened so far. It would almost certainly be counterproductive to the things you claim to hold dear - but that hasn't stopped you or your fellow travelers yet, so I see no reason to expect it now, either.
The problem with your analogy is the money in the offering plate, like most of the other symbols in a church, has exchange value - a thief can exchange the money for goods, or the goods for money. (Copyright cases don't fit theft - they would be more like trespassing - depriving someone of a legally given right - but IANAL.) What exactly can you exchange a communion wafer for? Without exchange value, it wouldn't seem like you have a theft case, either morally or legally. If your beliefs hold, you can't exactly steal Jesus, so what exactly is anyone stealing?
Er...meaning what exactly? That's a bizarro analogy. Are you suggesting that Catholics are like children, having fragile psyches, suggestible and unable to differentiate between reality (stuffed bunnies are innanimate objects) and fantasy (the bunny is my friend and he watches over me)?
As a rule, the act described above would be seen as cruel, since the child, being a child, likely believes the stuffed toy is in some way alive. Of course, any adult, and some children, know that stuffed bunnies aren't alive, but we let children have their silly fantasies. Because they are children.
So, according to your analogy, Catholics are emotionally and psychologically just like children.
Given that humans have been cheerfully slaughtering each other in the name of some god or goddess, since the dawn of time, the cumulative toll of religion on humanity far exceeds anything done by so-called "godless" regimes. (Which, as pointed out by someone above, were actually "cults of personality," where the head of state replaced any supernatural god(s).
"The last recourse of someone who can't sustain an argument is to call the other person a name.
And so ends the discussion. Thanks for proving my point, Craig.
Ok Matt, I'll try one last time.
You made the argument that people's beliefs should be respected. I and others argued that all beliefs are open to criticism, and used NAMBLA as an example.
You completely missed the point of that, seemingly outraged that someone would compare NAMBLA'S beliefs to the Catholic church.
This showed a lack of comprehension on your part, because we did NOT compare the church's beliefs to those other groups. We merely pointed out that ideas must be judged and accepted or rejected on their individual merits, without getting some kind of pass.
Your response also completely undermined your own argument because you yourself were displaying that kind of acceptance/rejection of ideas.
When this was pointed out to you, you countered that Catholicism is different and must be afforded respect simply because it's a "popular" idea.
I could have countered with an observation of how your position is not only wrong, it's dangerous. I could have said that with that attitude, no progress would ever have been made, we'd still have slavery. I could have said that if Dr. Martin Luther King felt as you do, he'd probably still be alive living a completely ineffectual life.
I could have pointed out that if Rosa Parks had felt the way you do, she would have happily rode in the back of the bus.
Instead, I used my "castration" remark as shorthand... that by sitting down and shutting up so as not to offend the majority, giving their ideas respect not for being worthy of it but simply for being dominant, that you are rendering yourself completely irrelevant.
THAT went completely over your head.
So I called you thick.
I've now explained fully. But at this point I think it was a waste of my time.
You think ideas should be afforded respect simply because they are widely held - this makes you a nothing. A complete and utter nothing. You would have stood back while the Nazis marched, you would have idly watched as people were lynched.
You aren't a boat rocker. Oh well. There are many like you, and thanks to your own inclinations, we can happily and safely ignore you.
Nobody:
Bullshit, again, as Marauder quickly illustrates by his reference to the swastika. It had tremendous power over the Germans.
Errr... I didn't illustrate this at all. If you know nothing about the Nazis the swastika is a simple decoration. Actually, if you are Hindu it is a religious symbol, still used today. If you are Buddhist it has two meanings depending on its facing. Jainism uses it as a holy symbol, and the Indian Government released a coin with its likeness. The Jews and Christians have both used the swastika as a holy emblem...
So if this symbol has power, it has a meaning. If it has a meaning - which one is it?
Two things: One, Marauder, like all other sycophants here ...
I am a sycophant? How? A sycophant is a "servile self-seeker who attempts to win favor by flattering influential people".
I am not servile - I have never met PZ and am not his servant.
What do I stand to gain from posting here?
Where have I flattered anyone?
What influence does PZ have that is of use to me?
...are of the belief that the Church requires blind obedience. Nothing could be further from the truth; but as you revel in your deliberate ignorance, whatever. Keep knocking yourselves out.
Errr, my example was intended to show that I was expected to blindly follow the teachings. Questions were not tolerated. And it isn't far from the truth - I have spoken with a few religious types and there are things their religion asks them to do which they obey which out knowing why they should do it. That is blind obedience.
Deliberate ignorance? Sorry, wrong. Provide me the necessary information and I will no longer be ignorant. My beliefs are built on my experiences not something other people told me. But I am happy to listen to your information and who knows, I may change my mind. You have a big battle to fight.
And PZ is infinitely worse than your nuns.
Until PZ slaps me (or anyone else) for asking a question, the nuns are worse.
I never said it was. Learn to write clearly if you don't want to have people think that you are justifying all opinions, no matter how heinous. Two people jumped on you in exactly the same way for your writing. Don't blame us for what you did.
Don't forget that Miki ends the vitriol with that creepy "We pray for you, love" thing.
@ #262
Dear Dave, please show the data to support your statement that child-rape is perpetrated at the same rate by catholic clergy as "in Teaching, Physicians and every other profession."
and anne, which part of that was wrong?
"CRAIG, by leaving them alone I meant from the START."
ah yes, we started it. We atheists shouldnt have made the catholics beat up on that kid.
"After all, you are in the minority here"
Craig, I want you to place your hand on your monitor. Did you feel that? I just high-fived you.
@276
The rates really don't matter. Now, if teachers unions and medical societies were found to be in practice of actually protecting the offenders, then that would be something.
I'm an atheist and I think I see what PZ Myers is trying to do, but I don't think there is any ethical way for him to have gotten a consecrated wafer. As far as I can tell the point of the exercise is to demonstrate everyone's right to act without regard for other people's absurd and unsupported beliefs, and I agree with his point. I don't think he hates Catholics, I don't think he's doing it to piss off Catholics, and I don't think he's a bigot. I think he's trying to say that no matter how much you want to believe, it's a just a fracking cracker.
But the legitimate protest I've heard from Catholics and others is that it's not HIS fracking cracker. They don't really give them away. They keep track of them down to the crumbs to make sure the crackers get what they consider proper treatment. They give them out to people who they reasonably believe have agreed to not desecrate them. Getting one from a church means effectively lying to the people there. Maybe just a lie, maybe not criminal fraud, but definitely not the right thing to do.
I'd feel better if PZ Myers had used an un-consecrated wafer, a bible, cross, chalice, painting, statue, figurine, crucifix, rosary beads, or something else that wasn't so access controlled. Part of me thinks he might have used an unconsecrated wafer anyway, to make a point about how you can't tell. Oh well. Flame on.
Dear Dave, please show the data to support your statement that child-rape is perpetrated at the same rate by catholic clergy as "in Teaching, Physicians and every other profession."
He didn't say it was a higher percentage. He called it a mafia--an organized crime syndicate involved with the protection of criminals. Indeed, not only the protection of the criminals, but moving them around and giving them access to more children.
Some people just can't deal with the fact they're part of a corrupt organization.
Anticipating the inevitable response: "But look at how mean and nasty some of the atheists here are! They do it too!"
Well, yes. I'll freely admit that some of the atheist posters here are being mean-spirited, immature, even outright jerks.
The difference, of course, is that they don't pretend to follow the teachings of a God who commanded His followers to love their enemies and to turn the other cheek when struck.
They're jerks, but they're not being hypocritical about it.
FrJ:
Out of curiosity, how are you correcting for inflation? By which I mean, if a genocidal ruler had decided to exterminate all Jews in, say, the 11th century, he wouldn't have been able to rack up the raw numbers that Hitler did, simply because a) there weren't as many people in Europe in the 11th century as in the 20th, and b) he wouldn't have had the benefit of radio, telegraphs, bombers, firearms, mass-production, a mostly-literate audience, chemical factories, and so on, and so forth.
If you don't take this sort of thing into account, the numbers are meaningless. It'd be like comparing the opening weekend gross of Gone With the Wind ($945,000) to Gigli's ($3,753,000).
I've lost count of the number of times I've been told that atheists don't believe in anything. So obviously, if these people are believers, they're not True Atheists™
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoaCnuBX78Y&feature=related
SHAMELESS.
@262
There might not be a difference between the number of paedophiles within the catholic church and without (I will look this figure up). The numbers aren't the issue. What is disgusting is the fact that the catholic church was busy covering up incidents of molestation and child rape thorugh such measures as the relocation of buggering priests to other parishes rather than alerting the authorities and having these criminals arrested. I have not heard of the American Bar Association, the American Medical Association, the National Science Academy, or any other organization with control over its members' conduct sweeping paedophile members under the rug. From what I understand, paedophilic physicians lose their medical licenses, they don't get transferred to a new clinic.
MAJeff, part of it was right, yes. But part of what you said was wrong. We have asshole, evil (wait, can I say "evil"?) pricks who abuse children and many of us are fighting to kick the fuckers out. But saying that ALL priest abuse children is such a massive oversimplification. Is everything so black and white to you? Do you not see that groups--any group be it Catholics, atheists, blacks, Jews--are made up of good people and bad? So was your comment wrong? No and yes. Right? No and yes. The sweeping generalizations I would think would be beneath you. You're obviously to wicked smart for that?
But I don't think you were going for a truth statement were you? It seems like you were going for the shock.
OK, I just got back from the library, and this is actually worse than the end of the world. The end of the world would only affect the future. But God was apparently so aggravated that his wrath has been echoing all up and down the time-stream.
Before Dr. Myers did his act of blasphemy, we had a nice intelligently-designed ecosystem that was just a pleasure to look at. But God changed it to this horrible chaotic mess where everything is struggling for survival against everything else and the vast majority of species have been extinct for thousands of years. (Possibly millions of years, I'm still trying to get some exact numbers.) About the only good thing is that we still have pandas, but I think they bite people now.
Meanwhile, in poltical news, the original 43rd President of the United States was replaced with an idiot and he seems to have started a war against the Ottoman Empire for no good reason.
On the cultural front, at least one perfectly good religion has been replaced by some sort of idolatrous cult that worships crackers.
The worst part is, when God changed the past, he also changed everyone's memories so that they can't remember the Universe ever having been any other way. (Well, obviously I remember, but that's just because I'm unusually strong-willed.)
I know this is a long shot...but, maybe if Dr. Myers apologized, God would put the Universe back the way it was before?
"And your right...I may disagree with the way this group attempts to move the Overton Window. While athesism has been thrown into the spotlight, I'm not sure its for the better."
That's not what the Overton Window is about.
If people LIKE what you do and say, you're not moving the window.
#280 The rates really don't matter. Now, if teachers unions and medical societies were found to be in practice of actually protecting the offenders, then that would be something.
Education Week Series 1996 several faculty were found covering up abuse.
Nick, you're brilliant. That's the point exactly.
Hm. a puzzler. Let's see, maybe because the Holocaust was an actual historic event in which millions of people were brutally slaughtered, and the American legacy of slavery, disenfranchisement, lynchings, institutionalized racism and hidebound prejudice is a shameful one, and furthermore, these episodes we would be invoking killed people, they did not just damage bland foodstuffs.
No, I have a better idea. Let's show crazed Catholics who believe that their bat-shit superstitions should have force in secular society how little we care for their authoritarian pretensions.
And cracker worshippers are nobly leading by example, showing us all how to lead a safe, sane and enjoyable life, paving the way to a better world, where flatbread has all the rights of human beings.
As opposed to "Do not do unto a cracker anything I say not to or be harassed and threatened."
In any case, nothing had been "done unto" any person until Cook was threatened and harassed, eventually along with PZ. Please tell me how your fellow cracker worshippers have been following the path of Jesus.
Up to you, I suppose. No God in any case, so if you need a fairy tale to convince yourself not to go on that killing spree you've been dreaming about, by all means, continue to believe it.
Ooooh, the mean atheist "bigots" hate crackers! You're a fucking idiot.
craig @ #127
Where's the "mod up" button?
But saying that ALL priest abuse children is such a massive oversimplification.
Who said that? I certainly didn't. I said that the Church was an organization that protected child rapists. Indeed, it not only protected them, it moved them around and gave them fresh access. That's why I called it a pedophile protection racket. And it went to the top, even protecting the protectors. A racket
Reading comprehension is our friend.
Ildi writes: "Don't forget that Miki ends the vitriol with that creepy 'We pray for you, love' thing."
What vitriol? After all, true Christianity is all joy--even when idiots run amok:
"Bless those who persecute (you), bless and do not curse them. ... Do not repay anyone evil for evil; be concerned for what is noble in the sight of all. If possible, on your part, live at peace with all. Beloved, do not look for revenge but leave room for the wrath; for it is written, 'Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.' Rather, 'if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head.' Do not be conquered by evil but conquer evil with good." ~Romans 12:14
"But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you...." ~Matthew 5:44
Little Paul can do all the evil he likes--all us *good* faithful, practising Catholics will just love him to death! Ahhh.....;o)
Let us break their chains, they say, and throw off their fetters.
The One enthroned in heaven laughs; He scoffs at them.
#270:
"What exactly can you exchange a communion wafer for?
Why don't you ask PZ? Like I mentioned earlier, he seems to have expressed willingness on the air to return the host in exchange for certain statements from a suitable Catholic authority. In principle, then, you can hold the host for ransom and make demands against it.
In the eBay papal mass consecrated host flap a few years back, at least $2000 was offered to recover the host and ensure that it was properly consumed. So a consecrated host can indeed have a significant exchange value.
"Without exchange value, it wouldn't seem like you have a theft case, either morally or legally."
In addition to the points made above, the value placed on the host by Catholics certainly qualifies this as theft morally.
Suppose I were to steal the ashes of your cremated loved one, which you intended to scatter on the property where your loved one grew up. The ashes have no exchange value, and furthermore I haven't even deprived you of any material thing, since you intended to scatter them anyway. Would you deny that I have done something horribly immoral?
"In several countries, the Roman Catholic Church has concealed documentary evidence of child rape by storing documents in the Papal Nuncio's residence, out of reach of any search warrant."
Ah yes, just when I thought I couldn't find the Catholic League reaction to be any more ridiculous, I'm reminded that their church is a sovereign state. Fuck them.
@291
"Education Week Series 1996 several faculty were found covering up abuse."
Really? What happened to them?
Re 52: "This is the only thing PZ will ever be remembered for, so I hope he enjoys his 15 minutes."
No, there is this (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/01/the_proper_reverence_due_tho…):
"And look at how much is lost. Between the time of the couple fleeing across a field of volcanic ash and poor dead Lucy lies 400,000 years. If a Bible is a record of the struggle of a people for 2,000 years, we'd need 200 Bibles to tell us the tale of just this one obscure, remote branch of our lineage.
Two hundred Bibles that were never written, books that even had they existed would be gone now. There was a vast history of events reduced now to nothing but a few footprints and a scattering of bones." The proper reverence due those who have gone before.
I think that piece was my introduction to Pharyngula.
Dave #291:
"The teachers are doing it too" doesn't exactly absolve the RCC of coverups of child rape or molestation.
Man... There are a lot of dumb-fucking, god-soaked, hypocrites rolling around here today. The last time I saw so many tiny-brained creatures acting this way, I tapped on the glass of a fish tank.
It's a cracker. Learn to deal.
We have asshole, evil (wait, can I say "evil"?) pricks who abuse children and many of us are fighting to kick the fuckers out.
But its the official policy of the church to protect and hide them. And that policy was written BY YOUR POPE.
So maybe not all priests are child molesters... but the Catholic Church is official a haven for them. Not accidentally. Officially and intentionally.
What does the Catholic church call people who are fighting against church policy written by the Pope himself?
If the Church is that corrupt, that rotten, then what about it makes your belief in a god require that it be in that corrupt church?
Wouldn't you at least conclude that the Catholic church is NOT the structure in which to worship your god?
Honest questions, not taking digs. It just really makes no sense to me... seems more like a devotion to tradition and a conservative (with a small c) fear of breaking from what you've had drilled into your head, rather than an actual, open and honest belief system which you are following.
Excellent. I'll arrange to have a live human sacrifice flayed for the glory of Xipe, for your hate and bigotry.
Myers, who seems to have been surprised by the response, has waffled between "I was just kidding" ("Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death, is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, 'I am only joking!'," Prv 26:18-19) and promising that he shall indeed carry through on his threat. One gets the impression that both he and his followers, having nothing but contempt for Catholics, have no real grasp of the interior contours of Catholic faith and belief, and therefore no grasp whatever of the hierarchy of values at work in Catholic life.
www.insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id…
So unlike the various cultists, who commit these acts for the own perverted pleasure, PZ Myers doesn't seem to derive any tangible excitement from the desecration but appears to delight simply in the provocation. I'm not sure which is more twisted. I pray he has a change of heart over night.
Rev. BigDumbChimp - Maybe wOO+ has gone to roost. Poor MAJeff is going to blah blah his fingers off before this one is over. I hope everybody shows up...
Could you repost your bacon makin? I lost it, but want to give it a go.
You and I are probably going to need new heads, or new desks by the end of this little party. *grin*
#262 in response to #240
"Dear Dave, please show the data to support your statement that child-rape is perpetrated at the same rate by catholic clergy as "in Teaching, Physicians and every other profession."
Or that other professions are governed by a hierarchy that deliberately shields kid-touchers from prosecution. The Catholic Church protected pedophile priests from the consequences of their actions, shuffling them from parish to parish. When he was Cardinal Ratzinger, Pope Ratzi the Nazi was instrumental in deceiving the laity by protecting child-molesting priests through his role as the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. This Guardian article details how Ratzinger asserted the Church's right to keep sex abuse hearings secret and out of the hands of secular authorities.
The molestation of children by priests was enabled and protected by the entire church hierarchy, going all the way to the Pope himself.
To a Catholic, raping children is okay, but molesting a cracker, that warrants the death penalty!
Did any of the Catholics attaxcking PZ protest the culture of silence in the church that enabled the molestation? Did any of them leave the church? If not, then the clear implication is that the widespread rape of children by priests did not dissuade Catholics from their allegiance to the church that allowed the rapes to happen.
...and of course, Miki, Jesus also commanded us to call people idiots, didn't he?
Oh, no, wait; I seem to recall that anyone who calls his brother "Fool" will be in danger of hellfire.
Again: very Christian of you.
It's a little early to predict how this is going to end, but I'll give it a shot.
WARNING: I'm not approaching this with an opinion as to whether or not he's doing the right/wrong thing. This is more a case of me engaging in a little short term fortune telling.
I don't know what he did with the things, whether he ate the Qur'an and burned the host or something more creative, it's iconoclasm.
Burning/desecrating the Qur'an is entirely old news and doesn't really generate much social response within the US. However doing something to Christian articles is much more iconoclastic within the culture.
Iconoclasts tend to become figureheads and/or pariahs, and I should expect this act to boost PZ's status in the freethinker/Atheist community, and increase the visibility of the movement at large.
Maybe he's ready to lead a larger "following" (not in the traditional religious sense), maybe not. My ultimate predication is that he will quit his job at the university to focus full time on the religious debate within the next five years.
(I don't know, I'm just having a bit of fun in all this controversy.)
Shame on you... Preaching hate.
If the host means nothing to you why hurt it and us?
You have a devil inside and are furious at the site of something so holly.
YOU KNOW its holy and you hate THAT! It is the Devil in you and you are a willing participant!
When you face God and Jesus you will see.. We all pray for you.
KD, funniest post ever.
"You have a devil inside and are furious at the site of something so holly."
Yep. PZ can't stand holly. Mistletoe drives the demon inside him to even greater apoplexy.
Coming soon: the ritual desecration of a candy cane, a glass of egg nog, and a package of tinsel.
Being an asshole for it's own sake is very rewarding.
A couple of points:
Fr. J -- symbols have no inherent power, but only the power we as individuals choose to give them. That's the point of this whole affair -- no symbol is worth ruining another human being's life over. No symbol is truly sacred; the ideas people attach to that symbol might be, but the symbol itself is just an arbitrary representation of those ideals and separate from them is only worth the sum of its parts. Here's the message that you refuse to hear: Your cracker is just a symbol -- something inherently worthless that you and yours have arbitrarily assigned great meaning to -- and not worth trying to destroy Webster Cook's life over! Or PZ's life for that matter.
Regarding the assertion that atheism has killed millions this past century -- no, it hasn't. Pol Pot, Stalin, and so on may have been atheists, but their atheism was not the reason motivating their actions; the fact is that the majority of those killed under their regimes died for political reasons, for being perceived as possible threats to the despot's power. Their is a difference between killing someone because they are seen as a potential threat to your regime and killing them because they, for instance, refused to believe a cracker literally (rather than symbolicly) becomes Jesus before you eat it. While I don't deny that their are likely cases where some barbarian killed a believer solely because of his own atheism, as of present I've never heard of one.
For those that are buying into the idea that Hitler was an atheist -- he wasn't. He was born and raised Catholic and, though he appears to have subsequently drifted away from the faith of his youth, it looks like he never lost theistic belief. Moreover, he would never have been able to rise to power without the Catholic Church's recognition of the Nazi Party; before the Church stepped in, outside nations refused to take him seriously.
Furthermore, many try to toss Darwinism into the mix as a motivator for the Nazi atrocities, when eugenics is based not on natural selection but animal husbandry, which predates Darwin by centuries, mixed with a strong dose of Lutheran anti-semitism. Much of what Nazi Germany did was at the very least justified and enabled through the use (or misuse) of Christian belief.
As for the mystery object -- I'm laying my money on it being a science or atheist text of some kind to help drive home the "no symbol is sacred" message. Probably Dawkin's "God Delusion".
-- Horse-Pheathers
PS> Fr. J, you really need to get your brain flossed. Something in there is gumming up the works and causing you to confabulate derision for an idea as bigotry and even _hatred_. Some hate the organization you belong to, sure, but how is that any different than the "hate the sin, love the sinner" mantra I hear so many believers repeatedly mouth?
Anticipating the inevitable response: "But look at how mean and nasty some of the atheists here are! They do it too!"
Well, yes. I'll freely admit that some of the atheist posters here are being mean-spirited, immature, even outright jerks.
The difference, of course, is that they don't pretend to follow the teachings of a God who commanded His followers to love their enemies and to turn the other cheek when struck.
They're jerks, but they're not being hypocritical about it.
No argument. FWIW.
KD #312:
How can you hurt a cracker? Do crackers have a heretofore unknown nervous system?
How, in hurting the cracker, is PZ hurting you?
KD,
There is no God.
There is no Jesus.
There is no Devil.
You have nothing to fear.
#306
"So unlike the various cultists,"
Yes, Catholicism included.
And I'll pray that you gain critical thinking skills overnight. But, as an atheist, I don't have much faith that it'll happen.
It is the Devil in you and you are a willing participant!
Re. post #317: oops, my itals didn't carry all the way down. FWIW, only the last line is mine.
Shame on you, KD, for lying. Mocking or destroying a religious symbol, no matter how, is not preaching hate. That is what you are doing by misrepresenting what is going on here.
The last I knew the host was just flour, with no holly in it.
There is no devil. The devil is another god of Christianity and, like God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, is also completely unsupported by any evidence. No evidence at all supports your attempt to threaten us with The Last Judgement.
"Being an asshole for it's own sake is very rewarding."
Some people seem to think so. There have been some very interesting studies done on the correlation between traits that allow one to thrive in the business world and traits common to sociopaths.
That being said: whether it's rewarding or not doesn't change the fact that it happens. I, for one, find someone who's just overtly a jerk and unapologetic about it more tolerable than someone who's a jerk and covers it in saccharine and unction. "Ooooh, you're an evil moron who will burn in hell, but we LOVE you anyway, you poor deluded scumbag!"
Poor MAJeff is going to blah blah his fingers off before this one is over
Nah. Making vindaloo chicken, dhal, and basmati rice. Far more filling, fulfilling and rewarding than a silly wafer, and no sexual guilt or misogyny required.
Is it safe to invoke Godwin's law yet? ;-)
(Since this is a heated discussion and people are liable to actually object to this comment with a straight face: Don't tell me he was a member of the Hitler Youth, enrollment was mandatory)
"I pray he has a change of heart over night."
Too late, can't you read? You god has already been spoiled! Wrecked! Tarnished!
Or do you not mean the actual desecration, but merely the public mention of it?
Gosh, is that some sort of admission that your God is not in the sky or in the cookie, but rather in your minds? That its not the act of desecrating your god that matters, its you being faced with ideas you don't like?
Interesting.
Best analogy from a christer yet. christers are all small children who need their lovey stuffed bunnies, or they'll cry.
Well played, Fr J, well played.
/golf applause
We all pray for you.
Group prayer!
and one more time:
cracker =/= person
Hey, guys
Been out for a while. So... what's new?
Same old, same old?
Sandi and Fr J So what did the actions of PZ prove and disprove? That this god thing is nothing but a made up god and all the irrational crap that accompanies it. Where the hell was your god to come down and save his own body? Funny how the universe kept going on it's daily workings, unconcerned with the fate of a measly cracker on earth, the sun still in the sky, people brushing their teeth, eating and doing all those sundry other things as if nothing important was happening in Morris, Minnesota. Wasn't your god pissed at this horrible desecration and able to prevent it? Good grief, when are you going to at long last comprehend that you are living a demented and insane life all fueled by the vile pox of religion? Can you imagine how much of the population is laughing at you over this incredible show of abject insanity? Of course your kind is not laughing, and you can thank your imaginary god for what has transpired. Think about that and consider that you had no one to let you down. The proof that your god does not exist was expressed in the most blatant terms that irrationality was witnessed to. You shall have no more crackers to worry needlessly over.
Craig, you have touched on an incredibly problematic point, the realization of how this Church dealt (or didn't deal with) abusive priests. And since you say it's an honest question how one can stay Catholic, not just a dig, I'll try to answer (albeit insufficiently no doubt). It IS something to grapple with but without walking away from the beliefs that go so far beyond the people who are priests (and again, there are so many good ones), it seems worth it at this point to fight for change (and justice) than to give up on a faith that has much goodness because some human beings did some very evil things.
I actually enjoy talking about differences in beliefs like this but too many would just rather point out WHY you're wrong, again with the saving you from your beliefs (or non-beliefs).
We all pray for you.
And a hearty "fuck off" to you too!
...frightened by what the majority of Americans believe in...
Posted by: Matt | July 23, 2008 4:36 PM
Oh yes Matt... we are shaking in our boots.
The only fear I see is in the religious fanatics who are terrified by the ridiculous idea that somehow a man in the sky will punish them for an eternity if they "desecrate" a cracker.
#318:
How can you hurt a cracker? Do crackers have a heretofore unknown nervous system? How, in hurting the cracker, is PZ hurting you?
See comments at #298. As a partial analogy, if I steal the mortal remains of your loved one, I haven't harmed your loved one, but I have wronged you, because you care about what happens to them. Especially if I steal them precisely to mock your attachment to your loved one and/or his remains, it is a viciously cruel act.
Nick #281:
You're right to worry about that, and I share that concern. I don't actually support any old random desecration as an act of disrespect. Not at this point, anyway. I would be delighted if PZ had something creative [like a scientific experiment] up his sleeve.
However, one of the Eucharist's that PZ has been sent is years old, apparently. That obviously doesn't negate all of the moral concerns, but it does remove some of the force from that argument. The person that took it several years ago didn't, as far as we know, do it for nefarious purposes. This is backed up by the number of people that have said that they have taken the wafers home with them in the past.
So, while there is still an issue, I'm not sure that it amounts to anything that is particularly repulsive.
Well, PZ, it certainly looks like you're in the soup! Soda Catholics didn't like your response to the cheesy Bill Donehough. They are certainly doing a lot of crumbling about it. Some of them are even resorting to salty language. Your typical critic likes to claim victim status, but I'd tell him: "Don't be such a waif, uh?" Don't give up the chip, respond with your usual crisp-bred logic.
Shame on you... Preaching hate.
Laughter ain't hate.
If the host means nothing to you why hurt it and us?
And if the host means something, then why do you send death threats to strangers? Is that what Jesus taught?
You have a devil inside and are furious at the site of something so holly.
There's no such thing as devils or gods. That's the point. And I love holly. It always looks so pretty in the winter.
YOU KNOW its holy and you hate THAT! It is the Devil in you and you are a willing participant!
No, really, the cracker is not holy.
When you face God and Jesus you will see.. We all pray for you.
But what if you die. . . and you have to face Odin All-Father and the rest of the Aesir, who will judge you to be unworthy of entrance into Valhalla for your lack of a warrior's strength?
Or you have to face Anubis, the Judge of the Dead, who will weigh your soul against a feather, and hand you to the Devourer of Souls if you fail the test?
Or if you discover that the real gods are Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu, and the rest of the Devas, who will send your soul back to Earth for reincarnation to expiate your sins?
They're all just as real as that Jesus fellow and his insubstantial feathered friend, the Holy Ghost.
...And the ground beneath me yet holds. Just as I expected.
Also, I wish people would not deign to indulge the fantasy about atheism or theism causing genocide. Because even if it were at all true, it's quite beside the point--that being, whether or not there's a god. The murderousness (or lack thereof) of individuals who hold a particular worldview is not in any way indicative of the worldview's truth value. It's a pointless game to play.
Louis C.K. treats the Catholic Church with the necessary gravitas while he sheds light on its inner workings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VABSoHYQr6k
and again for SDG
cracker =/= person
former or present.
Anne, #334
I find your claims interesting. Really do. Those beliefs that "go so far beyond the people who are priests", where exactly do the go, and how much beyond?
And this "faith that has much goodness"... can you tell us what of this goodness cannot be achieved without believing in the supernatural religious stuff? I think the "faith" is a hindrance to the actual goodness (which, admittedly, as an ex-catholic, I think there is some of).
I presume the "late entry" is a copy of Darwin's On the Origin of Species. If so, I think it makes a great point.
I think so too, and frankly I'm a litte upset you beat me to suggesting it. The other possibility is something intensely paganistic or foreign. A Buddhist text or a statue of Cthulhu perhaps.
Analogy is no good, he didn't steal the mortal remains of anyone. He didn't steal anything. It is a baked good. A cracker no amount of hand waving makes it anything else.
"See comments at #298. As a partial analogy, if I steal the mortal remains of your loved one, I haven't harmed your loved one, but I have wronged you, because you care about what happens to them. Especially if I steal them precisely to mock your attachment to your loved one and/or his remains, it is a viciously cruel act."
Except that there aren't any crackers in my family tree.
How about yours?
"...and of course, Miki, Jesus also commanded us to call people idiots, didn't he?"
Actually, Christ was using hyperbiole (as evidenced by the context of the passage) when He said, "Do not say 'Raca' to your brother." And, he was speaking to the attitude that came with specific name--in Aramaic--not the word itself.
Christ also called Herod, "That old fox" which as I understand the invective to mean actually translates to "a high-piched, screeching woman." Heck of a thing to say about your civic leadership, eh?
As well, the Apostle Paul referred to believers in his own See (in writing, no less) as idiots and ignoramuses, so, yes, it *is* *very* Christian of me, isn't it?
I'm always amused when people who claim to believe nothing about Scripture--and no nothing of it, either--try to use it as a weapon! It's fun to watch you twist the Bible for sport.
By the by, I have a query, in light of the present tenor of the atheist attitudes, here:
Y'all keep claiming that Catholics are making death threats against Little Paul and others of his ilk, but I have yet to see any real evidence of this as a demonstrable fact. Thus far, we only have Little Paul's mewling complaints to go by. Were this actually true, one would think that the Morris P.D. and Campus Security would be involved...but they *aren't*. How's that work? I believe that y'all are just itching so bad to slander Catholics by any means necessary that when insults don't work, you resort to lying claims of imaginary violence to assuage your own disappointed self-importance.....
Show me I'm wrong.
Good Catholics go to war on their knees. Good atheists just spew insults, hate and intolerance. Good Catholics offer Masses for the conversion of morons. Good atheists rail against them for their kindness. Poor atheists.
We pray for you. We love you. And we want to give you a hug!
Its funny to see how the religious have lost sight of the difference between a symbol and the real thing. Of course, when you realize that they have no "real thing" to be symbolized, then naturally the symbol is all important.
I can recall many wrecked sacraments performed by me as a child, and yet here we are.
Hence the total lack of confidence in the religious, and the madness they require to pursue the irreverent.
As for me, chicken vindaloo shall go down my face hole tomorrow, tonight its Phucket noodles.
Mmmmmm ;)
So let me see.
If you give me a tie for Christmas, and it's yellow with brown polka dots, and instead of wearing the damned ugly thing as you intended, I give it to the Goodwill or toss it out, I'm a thief?
You say it IS theft if the people who GAVE you the thing decide it is, if they feel that way after the fact?
Well then, can we vote on whether or not you were born an idiot? Since reality doesn't matter and what matters is what we decide afterward based only on what makes us feel good...
Geez. With that way of thinking, you could look around the universe and come up with... a religion or something.
SC: "Group prayer"
Judging from your previous snide remarks I didn't think you were religious. But yes, we are all as one when we have established a personal connection with God.
PERCHANCE he for whom this bell tolls may be so ill, as that he knows not it tolls for him; and perchance I may think myself so much better than I am, as that they who are about me, and see my state, may have caused it to toll for me, and I know not that.
The church is Catholic, universal, so are all her actions; all that she does belongs to all.
When she baptizes a child, that action concerns me; for that child is thereby connected to that body which is my head too, and ingrafted into that body whereof I am a member.
And when she buries a man, that action concerns me: all mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated; God employs several translators; some pieces are translated by age, some by sickness, some by war, some by justice; but God's hand is in every translation, and his hand shall bind up all our scattered leaves again for that library where every book shall lie open to one another.
--John Donne
The German Nazis were Christians. Modern American Nazis are Christians too. Thinking a cracker is a cracker despite what any religion says it is isn't hate speech. It's reality. Destroying a book, piece of cloth, a cracker, a doll to say "these things are objects, and nothing else, not sacred, not transmorgified, and as objects, entirely irrelevant" is not hate speech.
All right, everyone calm down, and let's take a rational look at things, shall we?
1. PZ Meyers alleges to have committed what is clearly defined as sacrilege against a sacred sign of a major world religion.
2. PZ Meyers intentionally makes this public, something which will inevitably garner attention, given his already prominent position.
3. PZ Meyers also purports to have committed the same offense against one and possibly two other major world religions, and is also making this public.
Make no mistake, people, this is something which he is trying to show to the world. If he wanted to desecrate a Eucharistic Host in his backyard to prove to himself that there was no God, we'd all be none the wiser, although to Catholics that wouldn't change a thing. What brings this out of the realm of religion-specificness is the fact that he is intentionally flaunting this in front of the faces of the world's Catholics and Muslims.
Someone earlier said that this was like burning an American flag in your backyard and saying that it's "just cloth". In private. I'm sorry, that's not the way things stand. This is like burning an American flag, and then YouTubing it to tell the world that it's just cloth. He knows that Catholics will be offended. He's doing it anyway. That is where the bigotry comes in.
I'm also aware that there's some Catholics around here who are reacting very harshly to this news. Overreacting. That's not correct. Catholics shouldn't be threatening PZ with death...and any who do so really need to re-learn their faith. They also provide a handy straw man for those who want to attack the Catholic Faith itself. You shouldn't be looking at radical individuals, but at the official announcements given by the Vatican. I haven't heard any.
That indicates to me that PZ is getting no attention from the Church. Why? Because he's just making a bunch of noise to get attention. He's not acting rationally, but like someone throwing a temper tantrum: he makes a lot of noise, breaks stuff, and then wants everyone to pity him.
As for me, I'm not going to bait him, or humor his shouting. I'll just go aside and pray that it resolves. I know some of you will mock that. I could care less. You're free to do so. I've heard worse. I've known of worse. I've known of actual evil, not just attention-grubbing petty acts.
"Y'all keep claiming that Catholics are making death threats against Little Paul and others of his ilk, but I have yet to see any real evidence of this as a demonstrable fact. "
You'd think that this desire for concrete evidence would extend to your belief in a sky fairy, as well.
Guess that's too much to ask for, though.
Come on people ... by now everything that could be said about the Freakin' Cracker, WAS said. You are just repeating the same thing over and over again. Aren't you getting tired?
Let's move on to some more interesting things ... we don't have to loose precious time over some stupid crackers.
We pray for you
And a big ol' "Fuck you!" right back atcha!
ROTFL.
Stalin never used gas chambers or bombers to murder his 20-61 million - just good old torture and bullets, and not a little atheist indifference.
Your comment is unbelievably stupid.
MAJeff @#344: So what? Work out your argument, don't just shorthand. A corpse is not a person either, even if it is substantially composed of matter and structures that were once a person. It's just inert matter now; the only objective point at issue is whatever feelings we may have regarding it. I understand you don't share my feelings about the Eucharist. Someone else may not share your feelings about your loved one's remains.
If the host means nothing to you why hurt it
You can't hurt it: it's just a cracker! Really, there are some dimwits commenting tonight!
Rubbish. Epic analogy fail.
Making off with the offertory plate is simple larceny.
The wafer is freely handed out as a consumable to whomever approaches the Minister of the Eucharist with no test for eligibility nor express preconditions whatsoever and is not expected to be returned. It is freely given away, notwithstanding the "implicit understanding" that you may have as a Catholic.
Whatever "not doing with a cracker what the giver intended" might actually be, it is certainly not simple larceny.
I accept entirely the argument that was put forward (by a former barrister of the CPS in the UK) that under UK law, taking the wafer could be construed as theft by misrepresentation/fraud, but your contention that it is simple larceny is another matter entirely.
corpse is not a person either, even if it is substantially composed of matter and structures....
did you notice the "former" part. Damn you're slow.
The big deal is the priority placed on something that was never and is not human, comparing it to actual humans, and--in some fucked up cases here--valuing it more than humans. Those are the fucked up values.
Has it been said already how cute is when religious people start capitalizing random words? The like with these catholics and the eucharist thing. Even it's cute when the dictionary does it!
Yeah. Ignore that PZ brought up the FRACKIN CRACKER because a student was getting death threats over one. Asshole.
And it's MYERS.
Thanks for playing godbot.
The church is Catholic, universal, so are all her actions; all that she does belongs to all.
When she baptizes a child, that action concerns me - Pete Rooke, quoting John Donne
How about when "she" rapes one, Pete?
Hell, probably what I said before was also already said.
Damn you Cracker!
"It IS something to grapple with but without walking away from the beliefs that go so far beyond the people who are priests (and again, there are so many good ones), it seems worth it at this point to fight for change (and justice) than to give up on a faith that has much goodness because some human beings did some very evil things."
But you're ignoring my point. I'm not asking why you stick with the church despite the bad priests. I'm asking why you stick with a church that has an official policy from the POPE DOWN to hide those priests.
It's not about sticking with an organization with some corrupt members, its about sticking with an organization that has corruption as official policy, and that has an "infallible" leader who authored those policies who the church claims was appointed BY GOD.
If the structure of the Church is that corrupt from the very top down, why stick with it?
Is the STRUCTURE holy? Can you not worship the very same God without clinging to a structure that is corrupted to the very core? From the very top down?
You're not going to be Pope, I'm sure... you have little chance of influence in that structure at that level - so why stick with it?
Just what is it you're worshiping? Can't you say "I don't need to worship my god through an organization that is corrupt?"
Why the allegiance to a man-made structure which you yourself seem to admit has the flaws of failed men?
What exactly is your religion? What exactly is it you worship? Honestly, it seems to me like the man-made structure is being treated as more "holy" than the supposed god or morals or ideas it claims for worship.
"Analogy is no good, he didn't steal the mortal remains of anyone."
Irrelevant, since the point at issue was that it is possible to harm someone without taking anything of exchangeable value. Taking mortal remains is one way to do that. It's not the only way.
I'm surprised at the conceptual difficulty here, but fine, let's plod. Suppose I merely lead you to believe that I've stolen the mortal remains of your loved one.
Suppose you believe that an urn on your mantle contains Grandma's ashes, and I believe (or even know) that it doesn't, but I know that you believe it does, and to mock your belief I steal the urn and film myself dumping the ashes into my fish tank and send you the video.
So I've deliberately caused you pain without stealing anything of exchangeable value or even (although it's strictly irrelevant to the logic) stolen anyone's mortal remains.
Andyo, you have a VERY good point about the fact that we CAN have goodness--loads of it--without religion. To be honest, I'm the only religious person out of my friends (and they still like me!) and they are deeply good, intelligent etc....So yes, you do not need the Catholic Church to be good but the church has done or encouraged good, in the form of supporting the poor, abused women, the homeless kids on the drag here in Austin (I won't go on cuz I don't want to set off MAJeff's blahs). As a formerly ex-Catholic (and then they ROPED ME BACK IN!), I personally--and that is the crux--have found the social ministries and then all that spiritual mumbo jumbo like meditation rewarding. The spiritual beliefs that are beyond the people have to do with an inner peace (of course brought on, I believe, by that guy I'm so fond of, Jesus). I didn't get it with Buddha, with the transcendental spirit or in all my books. So it seems to work for me. But the ORGANIZATION that is the Church is certainly flawed b/c people fuck it up. Someone asked what is done with people who fight the Pope? Not much really. Depends what you're fighting for, I guess.
The problem obviously is that all this IS NOT quantifiable or justifiable or anything logical. I get that. So I need to get off this science blog!! :-)
#298:
1) Did someone actually pay $2K to get a communion wafer back? It's one thing for someone to say they'll pay $2K if you'll give them that wafer, and another thing for them to actually do so. (Ebay's had that problem before - I don't think they take auctions for wafers now, partially because of the political issues, and partly for the same reasons lots of other things aren't bid on - because the bids aren't reliable in either the sense of "likely to be carried out" or "as measures of actual worth in a population".)
2) If someone comes in my house and takes someone's ashes, I don't need theft - B+E will do just fine. I don't know if theft can be actually made to stick legally.
Alternate: If I give the ashes out to be scattered, and someone else holds onto them instead, in opposition to my (unstated) wishes, are they stealing? I wouldn't think so, and I don't think I could press a legal case. Once I gave them out, and didn't make it (legally) contingent on specific behaviors, I would figure it to be open season.
If you need laws or threats to compel respect, you don't have any reason to deserve it and are unlikely to get it, which would seem to be the kernel of this whole fracas. Being hurt by an act of disrespect in one thing - the pathological need to compel respect from those unwilling to give it (and the resort to threats by certain people) will not only not get you what you desire, but is likely to make it harder for you to get it either now or in the future. Leaving this alone would probably have served the set of aggrieved Catholic people better, but that would not have allowed Bill Donohue, etc., to show everyone how big and powerful they are. At best, all they've shown is their impotence and lack of honesty. At worst, they impeach what they claim to believe in as useless or impotent. That would seem to be counterproductive, no?
To steal a line from someone else, PZ did not cause a disturbance. He merely improved one that was already there.
That theory seems to be falsified by the fact that it hasn't helped PZ's career much.
That makes you a masochist.
Prof. Myers,
Hmmm... I think you may have been wrong on 2 of your assumptions...
One, you made such a *huge* deal about this, there seems to be some ulterior motive? Seriously, it's such an important thing in your life, to "show someone how wrong they are", that it draws into question if this is pure science or a reaction of an instance earlier in your life (perhaps by a deviant person claiming to be "religious") or... well... something.
When I look at this, it's kind of like the religious zealot Fred Phelps and his hyper-public anti-gay crusade - I am a man of a God who espouses love and tolerance but I want to kill people and hate, look at the attention I get. You did this in such a massive public forum, the apparent real intended result *was* to get people to "pester" you. It's a drive of Ego. Otherwise, why not keep this private?
Second item. Re your other statement "the sad little cracker has met its undignified end" seems flawed. It still exists, both in the energy your act released and the physical matter of which it was once and is still composed of. Am I wrong? Sure, it has changed physical states, but it still exists. Just like the ashes of a deceased person...
On an etherial level, if you believe that you "desecrated" or burned or whatever a certain thing, believing it *was* in fact a transsubstantiated host (I think that's the correct term), then you yourself *do* buy into the whole transsubstantiation thing. Sorry, but you can't do a thing believing you are doing a thing without actually believing in the thing, even if your belief is that no such thing exists, yet to have a non-existence you must feel that on a plane there *is* an existence that is there for you to ardanently prove your non-belief therein.
And if you really *do* fel it was a consecrated host then you do follow the possibility of said transsubstantiation, as such how can you feel, if a deity can impose itself into a piece of bread, then how can you not believe that this same omnipotent being can as easily remove itself from said "Cracker" before you culd desecrate it? (Would that be untranssubstantiatability?)
By your act, which was obviously not a scientific experiment, rather, an exposition of self-ego (not unlike the cat who burned the man early, Paul Addis), you may have thought you were defiling something that some hold sacred, but IMO what you did was expose your own shortcomings and laid your soul (you know what I mean here) bare. And as such, to the layperson you made yourself appear less of a man of science and more of a religious (or anti-religious) zealot nutcase. Had you done something more in line with your stated discipline (like show how division by zero is possible, and will lead to warping of the dimensionality of space, etc.) then you would have come across, at least in some eyes, as less of a crackpot and more of a scientist and professor.
Strange coincidence? Years ago I found myself attracting certain religious types, in general the bible thumpping born again evangelista types which were prevalent in the 1970's (wasn't my fault, maybe it was how I looked or something, as it wasn't my "scene"). The one thing I remember them, almost to a person, saying was how convinced that there was no god, that they too, were people of science and logic, until something changed. Reading your writings on theology makes me giggle too, as, well... they, too, swore that there was no God, that it was all a sham, etc... until they changed. Now you can't shut them up, as it's God this and God that. Serious. All they do is talk "conversion" (and we're not talkin' football, either!)
Something to think about. Those who have the loudest and most in your face thing going on usually have the deepest connection, closeted within their psyche, perhaps their subconscious, to that which they wish to destroy. And the funny thing is... like ol' Fred above, an action intended to shock usually has an opposite effect. Be careful what you're trying for.
Sorry to go on so long, my apolgies, but it was an interesting foray into the psyche of yours which your actions broadcast to the masses. One never knows, perhaps I, too, am wrong. Maybe we all are wrong. Or worse, maybe it is *all* a figment, and no more real than a passing thought stuck in the nth of ones mind, no more based in so-called "physical reality" than the thought that division by zero is impossible.
Then, would it matter what you did or said you did? Or is this all a project exploring the development of the physicality of the human psyche?
It's been a fun half hour, on this subject. I'm sure you are having a wonderful day, and those you are trying to sway to your thought are, too.
thanks. Have an awesome day...
Susanne
Dear sandi and Fr. J,
By advocating that the non-belief of god is correct and that any contrary beliefs (theism) are incorrect does not in itself constitute intolerance. Intolerance, rather, is when a group specifically refuses to allow the practice of, or the preaching of, beliefs that are contrary to the group.
Atheists on this site are not disallowing the practice of religion, nor are they disallowing theists to preach.
Attributing 'intolerance' is incorrect.
I always laugh at the people who harp on Hitler, Stalin and others being atheists.
Hitler was not an atheist, he was a Catholic. And even if he was, atheism was not the reason he killed all of those people. The same goes for Stalin, and others. All atheism is is a lack of belief in a god. There's nothing about killing gay men, or wives submitting themselves unto their husbands, or killing people who work on Sunday, or religions other than one's own narrow, shallow mind are inferior, or anything of that hateful, violent and oppressive nature.
"Gott mit uns."
Posted by: Susanne | July 23, 2008 6:15 PM
Wow, some insane crap in there.
Of course the, "You must really believe it deep down" shit had to show up.
Just stop trying to think. You don't have any skills at it.
Dave @#262,
It is nevertheless true that the Catholic Church has an official global policy of protecting child-rapists in its ranks from criminal prosecution.
And the day the teacher's union, or the doctor's representative organisation pervert the course of justice to protect child-rapists, I'll call those organisations child-rape mafias too. I expect every teacher or physician of any moral fibre would condemn and leave such an organisation immediately in total disgust. Not so the members of the Church, vile hypocrites that they are, who seek to lecture us from the moral high ground.
I accused him of no act whatsoever. The Roman Catholic Church is an organisation with an official policy of aiding and abetting child-rapists. It is therefore legitimate commentary to call them a "child-rape mafia". Fr. J claims to be a Roman Catholic priest and is therefore a member of what I legitimately termed a child-rape mafia.
I made no accusation whatsoever. He himself proclaims his membership of the Roman Catholic Child-Rape Abettor's Club.
You must have skipped reading comprehension class.
"Of course the, "You must really believe it deep down" shit had to show up.
Just stop trying to think. You don't have any skills at it."
She's probably not even still here. Most likely she just stayed long enough to ejaculate all over the comments, but didn't stay to help clean it up.
"Hitler was not an atheist, he was a Catholic. And even if he was, atheism was not the reason he killed all of those people. The same goes for Stalin, and others. All atheism is is a lack of belief in a god. There's nothing about killing gay men, or wives submitting themselves unto their husbands, or killing people who work on Sunday, or religions other than one's own narrow, shallow mind are inferior, or anything of that hateful, violent and oppressive nature."
And even if somehow being an atheist actually made you feel compelled to kill people...
...there still would be no evidence whatsoever for the existence of a god, and the murdering atheists would have no effect on that one way or the other.
#337 SDG:
Better analogy: I bake a gingerbread cookie, make a dress out of frosting, and hair out of white sprinkles, and say that it is my (dead) grandmother. I ask you if you would like a bite of my grandmother, break off a piece of the gingerbread, and hand it to you. You walk over to your friend in an effort to explain my state of mind to him. Whereupon my cousin grabs your arm and tells you to either eat it or give it back. As you run off with the gingerbread arm out of irritation of your treatment, she threatens your life.
Shortly thereafter, a mid-level manager for a company that does advertising for the large multinational gingerbread manufacturer starts shouting to anyone that will listen that your leaving with the gingerbread arm was an act of evil worse than muggings or rape.
In response to this, the local high school science teacher, in an effort to point out the hypocrisy of the advertising manager's point of view, asks for anyone who has been given a bit of gingerbread in the same manner to send it to him, so he can toss it in the trash, pointing out that my delusion (that a gingerbread cookie is my grandmother) is just that, a delusion.
People in the town threaten the science teacher's life, and point out that he would never laugh at the local biker gang's belief that their beers are actually the collected tears of William S. Harley and Arthur and Walter Davison.
Shorter Susanne, preserving all significant content:
blah, blah, blah.
(Sorry to butt in, MAJeff)
Nick Gotts: "How about when "she" rapes one, Pete?"
That passage seemed to fly right past past you. Besides which I know of no case where woman have been ordained and gone on to engage in homosexual behaviour that seems to lead to these rapes.
#371: note - the "you" in the last paragraph is general (the set of aggrieved ones, particularly those with fatwa envy), not implying SDG personally.
381 continued:
Science teacher makes a meal out of gingerbread cookie and beer, says that they appear to be just cookies and beer, and posts the video of the meal on YouTube. Video gets many hits, and civilization does not end.
Susanne, what part of "random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal" don't you understand?
Wow! We even get a bonus desecration? Three for the price of two? It was all worth it...
(Sorry to butt in, MAJeff)
Feel free. I'm relaxing after a lovely dinner. Thinking about opening up some pinot noir.
Living is good.
*grabs some popcorn, ready for the spectacle*
buttered popcorn >> tasteless cracker
SDG @ 158 and others,
You are saying that an unworthy person taking the eucharist cracker is theft. Do you believe that every single person in every single communion queue is in a state of grace (or had the sacrament of redemption), has fasted, etc? Because I bet they haven't, which means every single mass is disrupted by catholics.
Cue NTS defense.
"One, you made such a *huge* deal about this, there seems to be some ulterior motive? "
He made a blog post about a news item that disturbed him and expressed his opinion. As he often does. As millions do.
In response to that, his life was threatened, and an organization embarked on a mission to get him fired from his job.
I don't know about you, but if I were him, I'd also react kinda strongly to that. I'd also talk about it on a blog, and stand up to the people threatening me. And I'd also probably relish seeing the assholes exposes themselves.
You are seeing things totally backwards.
Careful P.Z.
Eating that theater popcorn might offend the juju-bians...juju-ites....juju-farians...whatever they're called. :-)
And happy birthday to your son!
MAJeff: Pinot Noir? You vampire! ;)
YOU KNOW its holy and you hate THAT! It is the Devil in you and you are a willing participant!
Nothing makes me want to go to a mass and steal crackers more than statements like this.
Yeah, millions of deaths by atheism is hilarious. But it's those very qualities that helps people to get ahead in the business world.
Hey! Today's my birthday, too. Go tell your special oldest son I'm wishing him a real Happy Birthday from this blogger who's also celebrating her birthday today, too!
Well, if I had any port, I'd toss a bit of that in some espresso. But no port, so pinot.
Anne, #370
This pretty much sums up your position then, if that's what you meant. And I pretty much agree. But to claim the right not to be offended (as others do, don't know about you) based on something not quantifiable, or (better yet) not justifiable or not logical is just downright asking for undeserved special attention. In fact, even if we did have a logical belief, we don't have the right not to be offended if someone wants to transgress it. We can speak up, but censor, I don't think that's good.
If I steal the mortal remains of your loved one, I haven't harmed your loved one, but I have wronged you, because you care about what happens to them. Especially if I steal them precisely to mock your attachment to your loved one and/or his remains, it is a viciously cruel act.
Posted by: SDG | July 23, 2008 5:58 PM
There is absolutely no relationship between the actual remains of a dead person and a wafer that is projected to be the reconstituted flesh of an immortal god no matter how many times you say there is.
It would seem the point you are trying to make is that emotionally it is the same thing. But you don't have to be indoctrinated in religious dogma to mourn the death of a loved one. Mourning of the dead is universal through all cultures and religions. The belief in holy crackers is not. According to the Hindus, if you eat beef you are eating someone's reincarnated ancestor so please think about the emotional terror you are inflicting the next time you take a big juicy bloody bite of a burger. I can promise you I will not.
True Bob @ 390:
You are saying that an unworthy person taking the eucharist cracker is theft.
No. I'm saying taking the Eucharist during communion for any other reason than to consume it on the spot is theft. The state of the person who consumes it on the spot is between that person and God.
I hope that this is the last post on the subject. While I welcome new readers to Pharyngula, I am getting tired of comment threads that continually retread the same ground.
(I say as if Pharyngula were my site. But you get the drift.)
This was linked to a few days ago by someone else but it seems like an appropriate time to bring it up again.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm
Can the religionists please come up with stuff we haven't heard before?
'Cause you can't really insult a man without comparing him to a woman.
"thanks. Have an awesome day...
"Susanne"
Beautiful treatise, Girlfriend--and right on the mark! As I told Little Paul this morning in our dialogue via email, me thinks he doth protesteth too much! His own ego is what's really at stake.
After all, if GOD does not exist, why do Little Paul and the poor deluded Richie spend so much time and energy trying to prove it (as I recall from junior high biology, you cannot prove any negative, so how is this logical or rational)?
As G.K. Chesterton so wisely noted, "If there were no GOD, there would be no atheists...."
Pray, pray, pray! Love, love, love. Which would you rather have, Little Paul, cookies or flowers?
and don't worry...it's not a magical varietal....and I don't have any crackers in the house (no good cheese either)
:)
Niether is there any measurable evidence for rationality - the god of atheism.
After all, if GOD does not exist, why do Little Paul and the poor deluded Richie spend so much time and energy trying to prove it (as I recall from junior high biology, you cannot prove any negative, so how is this logical or rational)?
WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!!!!!!!
"A corpse is not a person either, even if it is substantially composed of matter and structures that were once a person. It's just inert matter now;"
Yes, SDG, and with lab analysis I can establish that you, hypothetically, stole parts of an actual person. I could actally prove that it once was a person, CSI style.
However, a so called consecrated cracker will reveal no difference between itself and an off the shelf wafer made at Eucharist Baked Goods & Winery. Your Jesus corpse cookie has no molecular change, no dna evidence to detect any difference BECAUSE ANY ACTUAL DIFFERENCE IS JUST IN YOUR HEAD, IT IS IMAGINARY. THE ESSENCE/ACCIDENT EXPLANATION IS A RIDICULOUS LIE.
" I take yoooouuuurrr wafer, I eeeeeeeaaaaatttt it up......."
Ah, Fr. J. brings up the all atheists are alike canard again. Hmmm, let us run with that idea, i.e., lie, as true shall we?
Ok, all atheists are alike. I am the same as Stalin and am personally responsible for one of the bloodiest regimes in history. By the way, if that is true I am sorry.
Well, if atheists are all alike, we can group religions into large chunks. Hmm, Eastern thought, those are one group. Christinanity , Judasm, Islam all believe in the god of Abraham and common decent, therefore, you are one large group with a little bit of argument and some schisms. My question then, is when is the Catholic church going to apologize for 9-11? When are Muslims going to apologize for the Inquisition?
OK, I also need to apologize to the uber dumb on here. I know the above is not solid logic. It is easy to recognize when it is silly, so why do Xtians not recognize the silliness of lumping atheists into a group? It is a lie and you know it is a lie.
Looking forward to the dawn of a kracker krazy free day.
Man, too many comments to keep up...
I'm saying you're an idiot. You can't steal something given to you. At best the Church could get someone for "breach of contract," but there are so many elements missing that you'd be a clown to think that'd work too.
Man, they don't make internet bunk-house lawyers like they used to...
Pete Rooke@383.
By the FSM, you're stupid. The "she" I referred to was the one in your irrelevant quotation - the Catholic Church.
mayhempix @#399:
It would seem the point you are trying to make is that emotionally it is the same thing. But you don't have to be indoctrinated in religious dogma to mourn the death of a loved one. Mourning of the dead is universal through all cultures and religions. The belief in holy crackers is not.
Mourning the dead is universal, but how they are mourned and how the body is treated differs. Burial at sea may be perfectly respectable in some cultures but anathema in others. So if someone from the latter sort of culture is horrified that I have taken their loved one's body and dumped it in the ocean, we may say it is their culture that has taught them to be horrified. It doesn't change the fact that I've wronged them.
"As G.K. Chesterton so wisely noted, "If there were no GOD, there would be no atheists...."
If that's what passes for wise where you live, no wonder you're religious.
PZ did this because he knows the power of symbols and he wanted to hurt other people.
_______
It is more a case of priests knowing how to wield symbols to keep their flock cowed to the point of obedience and submission. Treating such symbols, like the cracker, with disregard, disturbs priests because that is where their power lies.
In other words, priests hurt people by keeping them dumb and subservient by manipulating the flock through symbols, while PZ is cutting through the priest's power base by making a joke of the priest's symbol.
I love you, PZ! You are a hero for our times.
Nothing gets by you, Grissom.
Ha ha! Somehow this comment reminds me of that "reality-based commmunity" comment from that Bush buttlicker. I'd say thank you for saying we're the rational ones, and I agree. I don't know that atheists are rational just for being atheists, and I certainly don't care about the word "god", but otherwise, you're onto something here!
Moses @#412:
You can't steal something given to you.
The Eucharist is (possibly) handed to you. It is not "given" to you, any more than the communion plate. It is place in your hand for one reason only. It is not "yours" to do with as you see fit.
Beautiful treatise, Girlfriend--and right on the mark!
That's just sad.
Catholics should follow the example of Elisha in this instance and curse PZ in the name of the Lord in the hope that two she-bears will murder him and 41 Pharyngulites. This is the gravely serious weight of the "respect" which Yahweh is due.
"Christinanity" - JeffreyD
I don't know whether the typo was deliberate, but it is brilliant!
Well, if nothing else of use has come out of the Great Cracker Kerfuffle, I at least now have a withering and appropriate retort (or would it be, in kindness, a salve?)to the fulminations of the Delusional. To wit:
"Have a Cracker"....
Stupid, illogical ass. An isult is like a glass of wine. You can't get drunk if you don't drink it.
Center yourself you lying-piece-of-shit, goat-turds for brains and none of that crap will get to you.
And if you can't, well, fuck you and live your life as an over-reactive nellie. I don't care. Nobody cares. Not even your non-existent God who, historically speaking, isn't even the God you think he is...
Matt @ #48 "The atheists calling into question the "wackiness of the religious right" by abusing crackers and whatnot doesn't respect the right that people can think anyway they want to."
You've confused the right to have whatever silly beliefs you want with a right to have your silly beliefs respected. If you want to believe cookie monster is real, santa claus brings your presents, and a cracker really is zombie jesus thats is your right and I stand behind that. I'll still be free to ridicule your crazy ideas.
Why is "MAJeff, OM" not global killfiled? I can't recall him ever contributing anything but one-liner sarcastic gripes, most of which consist of iterated invocations of his mantra, "blah".
#407: Niether is there any measurable evidence for rationality
That is indeed the case where you are concerned, Baba.
Haha - are you really that stupid?
Act of Reparation to the Most Blessed Sacrament
With that most profound respect
which divine Faith inspires,
O my God and Saviour Jesus Christ,
true God and true man,
I adore Thee,
and with my whole heart I love Thee,
hidden in the most august Sacrament of the Altar,
in reparation of all the irreverences,
profanations, and sacrileges, that I,
to my shame, may have until now committed,
as also for all those
that have been committed against Thee,
or that may be ever committed for the time to come.
I offer to Thee,
therefore, O my God,
my humble adoration, not indeed,
such as Thou art worthy of,
nor such as I owe Thee,
but such, at least,
as I am capable of offerings;
and I wish that I could love Thee
with the most perfect love
of which rational creatures are capable.
In the meantime,
I desire to adore Thee now and always,
not only for those Catholics
who do not adore or love Thee,
but also so supply the defect,
and for the conversion of all heretics,
schismatics, lebertines,
atheists, blasphemers,
sorcerers, Mahomedans,
Jews, and idolaters.
Ah! yes, my Jesus,
mayest Thou be known,
adored, and loved by all
and may thanks be continually given to Thee
in the most holy and august Sacrament!
...it doesn't change the fact that I've wronged them.
Posted by: SDG | July 23, 2008 6:35 PM
You dodged the point of my post. Let's try this:
So that means when you eat meat you have "wronged" the Hindus?
E.V. @#409:
"Yes, SDG, and with lab analysis I can establish that you, hypothetically, stole parts of an actual person. I could actally prove that it once was a person, CSI style."
So what? It can't be hurt, so it has no rights. It could be argued that the only empirically relevant difference between this particular lump of matter and other lumps of matter is that the people to whom this lump of matter is historically connected (i.e., the family) have strong feelings about how it is treated and disposed of.
Just like...
Hey, PZ, maybe you could score this piece of gristle for some really high-class desecration.
"Catholics should follow the example of Elisha in this instance and curse PZ in the name of the Lord in the hope that two she-bears will murder him and 41 Pharyngulites. This is the gravely serious weight of the "respect" which Yahweh is due."
I'm pretty sure I can run faster than at least 41 of you, so save a place for me in hell, slowpokes.
// As G.K. Chesterton so wisely noted, "If there were no GOD, there would be no atheists...."
Come one ... that's wisdom? It isn't even logically correct.
The correct thing to say is: "If there were no deluded people believing in imaginary "beings", we would all be atheists".
"'Y'all keep claiming that Catholics are making death threats against Little Paul and others of his ilk, but I have yet to see any real evidence of this as a demonstrable fact.'"
"You'd think that this desire for concrete evidence would extend to your belief in a sky fairy, as well.
"Guess that's too much to ask for, though."
In other words, you say that the atheist camp doesn't have a shred of evidence to support their untenable claim of violent threats (which goes to *prove* they don't really exist, do they???!!!). Just as I thought. The task is too big and unweildy for you to rise up to meet with anything more than subterfuge and rhetorical fallacies.
Thanks for playing, Love. Next!
No.
I think you're pretty thick if you don't appreciate the irony of your comment. But, you did make the comment. Don't worry, I'm agreeing with you there, mostly.
mayhempix @#430:
You dodged the point of my post. Let's try this:
So that means when you eat meat you have "wronged" the Hindus?
Please see my response all the way back at #115.
#426 - There is, for starters, the "OM" after his name. Of course, if you had read, say, the rest of this thread, you might not have wrote what you did, but...
Kseniya's Rule, please.
Why is "MAJeff, OM" not global killfiled?
That "OM" just might be a clue... Nah.
I guess this explains why there are Nazis riding dinosaurs in my back yard.
There is no god.
I reject the holy spirit utterly.
Jesus Christ is make believe.
There is no hell.
Fr. J = Voxday
A cracker is a cracker.
When you're dead you rot.
I know what catholics do on their knees.
Resurrection is a lie.
Now I'm bored.
Convincing repartee.
Grow up douche bag. If we're going to count the millions, let's start with 112 million native Americans killed, albeit millions where with God's diseases, with the blessing of the Catholic Church. And don't forget Catholic Church sanctioned African slavery to replace them as a slave labor force.
Oh, shallow thinking moron, it wasn't "atheism" that killed them. It was totalitarianism. The same shit the CATHOLIC HITLER practiced when he killed directly, or indirectly, a good twenty-plus million people. Unlike the Taiping Rebellion which was a Christian pogrom in China that left 20 million dead.
You need to turn in your Internet card. You're too stupid to be on the net.
Anyway, I've got to take the monkey and her BFF to the mall. No time to deal with bigoted morons like yourself today.
Dammit PZ! would ya give us some warning next time next time you descrate major religious icons????
We just had VIOLENT VIOLENT thunderstorms here in New England, and TORNADOES in Rhode Island and Massachusetts!!! That's unheard of!!!
To me, at least, it's small consolation that god has such crappy aim...
Baba:
You are someone who buys used cars on faith?
Running with the idea that rationality is not just a good idea, but a god who can be worshiped, you'd have to concede you are a pantheist. You might want to reconsider this line of "reasoning".
"So if someone from the latter sort of culture is horrified that I have taken their loved one's body and dumped it in the ocean, we may say it is their culture that has taught them to be horrified. It doesn't change the fact that I've wronged them."
And TAKING someone's body and doing something with it is exactly nothing like ACCEPTING a CRACKER and not eating it.
It's understandable why people value the bodies of their loved ones (though I personally don't.)
It may even be hard-wired.
There is NOTHING hard-wired about placing a huge amount of emotional value on a cracker, so much that you'd make death threats over it, or actually KILL people over it, as many Jews were.
Being emotional about the body of a loved one is understandable. Being emotional about a pastry is INSANE.
It is simply INSANE. And demanding that OTHER treat your cookie as sacred even though they are NOT insane is immoral. trying to make worship of your cookie mandatory is immoral - and make no mistake, forcing others to treat your cookie as anything other than a cookie IS demanding it be worshiped.
And heres the final thing... you can wail and scream and cry and threaten and twist logic all you want - but we will NEVER see your cracker as anything but a cracker.
We will NEVER treat your cracker with any more deference than is due any other cracker... because we are not insane.
And for you to continually argue that it MUST be treated with respect by people who do not share you delusion does only one thing - it casts into further relief the difference between delusion and sanity.
It simply makes that much clearer why your demands for deference must be resisted.
So keep it up... you're simply assuring that your cracker will be treated with more public disrespect than it would have if you morons wouldn't have gone off the deep end in the first place.
Demands for fealty to fantasy MUST be met with derision. Expect nothing less.
Haha - are you really that stupid?
This is indeed the case where you are concerned, Baba.
Eucharist label warning: No Actual Body Was Harmed In The Consumption Of This Wafer
Symbolic gesture: playing cops and robbers
Literal gesture: actually robbing a bank
Symbolic gesture: giving someone the finger or saying "fuck you!"
Literal gesture: anal assault with a broom handle
SDG, understand the difference?
Boy is Jesus pissed. He'd roll over in his grave if he ever found out about this.
There have now been I think hundreds of comments from Catholics that taking a consecrated wafer from the service is theft. Arguments on and on, back and forth, over and over about theft. But never, to my recollection, about abduction or kidnapping.
For a two cent misdemeanor you lose your god.
Niether[sic] is there any measurable evidence for rationality - the god of atheism. - Baba
Atheists need not be rationalists, so at the most elementary level, your jibe is foolish. Incidentally, how did your comment arrive at this blog? Did you propel it by the power of your imaginary sky-fairy? Or did you send it, like everyone else, using rationally-designed machinery? The whole of science and technology is evidence that rationality works, halfwit, unlike appeals to your fantasy-daddy.
"Niether is there any measurable evidence for rationality."
OK, explain.
Ooparts #280, MAJeff #282 (and others), leki #286, Chancelikely #302, craig #304 (and many others), freelunch #308, Gobear #309.
Ding! Ding! Ding! Exactly! Well said ladies and gentlemen.
You guys win both the reading comprehension award, that Dave missed earlier, and basic human decency and morality awards, that the RCC missed for at least the last 45 years.
Anne @#287,
Nobody said any such thing. The FACT is that the Vatican has an official policy of non-cooperation with law enforcement investigating clerical child-rape and sexual abuse. It has had a policy of concealment since 1962. Ratzinger was responsible for the coordination of this obscene policy. That is why the RCC earns the appellation "Child Rape Mafia" or "Child Rape Abettors' Club". It is not a generalisation of the behaviour of all priests. However, I do think that you must be an immoral monster to be a member of, or support in any way, such a morally bankrupt and disgusting organisation.
Dave @#291,
So? That equates to the global conspiracy coordinated by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, while lecturing the world on its sexual behaviour from the high moral ground, does it?
Chancelikely @#302, Bingo! Well said.
Azteca @#305, LOL!
This thread ain't half hard to keep up with :o)
For all the people going off about the bad weather where they are at, I have to point out, here in Chicago, it is a beautiful sunny day in the low 80's. Blasphemy, it does my weather good!
Didn't you hear? Jesus was put in a tomb and three days later he rolled back the stone in front of the tomb. Then he looked out, saw his shadow, and knew there'd be six more weeks of winter.
Irony was the intention, which seems to have been lost on you.
I'm amazed that nobody has linked to this classic (second only to Dark Dungeons) given today's loldrama...
The Death Cookie!
You dodged the point of my post. Let's try this:
So that means when you eat meat you have "wronged" the Hindus?
Please see my response all the way back at #115.
Posted by: SDG | July 23, 2008 6:46 PM
I read it but you again dodged the point of my post.
One more time.
Hindus believe their ancestors are reincarnated in cows (along with other animals).
It has nothing to do with whether or not they own the cow. To them you are a sacrilegious cannibal eating the flesh of someone's relative.
To you that is OK because they don't own the cow?
You are a hypocrite like all religious believers... including the Hindus.
"In other words, you say that the atheist camp doesn't have a shred of evidence to support their untenable claim of violent threats (which goes to *prove* they don't really exist, do they???!!!). Just as I thought. The task is too big and unweildy for you to rise up to meet with anything more than subterfuge and rhetorical fallacies."
I'd like to submit as evidence of the death threats the fact that a man CONFESSED TO MAKING ONE, and his wife was fired from her job at 1-800-FLOWERS because he used her email account to do it.
Next?
Here is an analogy you might understand. Suppose you had a very sacred book outlining your philosophy on life. This book also happened to be stitched together and bound in the skin and flesh of a loved one who had recently passed away.
Now desecrating the Eucharist would have the same effect as desecrating that book and posting the evidence in glee.
Baba said:
Come on, Baba, now you are coming across as dishonest, and I really don't want to believe that.
Hitler's religious beliefs and fanaticism
Nazi photos
Now, stop claiming that Hitler was an atheist.
Also, explain to me how atheism can, in-and-of-itself, logically lead to mass murder? Show your work! Remember, there is nothing else to atheism than non-belief, or more accurately, non-theism. So an atheist can believe in anything else, but god.
Of course, what you will find, if you bother to research Stalinism, Maoism, etc, is that they constituted quasi-religions, or political religions. They [Stalin, Mao] were the gods. That is why they had to stamp out any other type of religion -- to form a cult of personality.
Stalin took advantage of hundreds of years of subservience by the citizens of Russia to the Tsar, who they considered to be more than human [sound familar?]. As it has been said before, if you are in the totalitarianism business, you would have been mad not to take advantage.
And where have you heard of [Lysenko's] miracles, heresy hunts, etc, before? That's right, religion.
That very short comment from Baba can be deconstructed in more than a couple of ways that makes it ironic and funny. That's the mark of a good writer. I have to give him credit for that.
Craig wrote:"'As G.K. Chesterton so wisely noted, "If there were no GOD, there would be no atheists....'
"If that's what passes for wise where you live, no wonder you're religious."
...and Joe Cracker followed behine with: "Come one ... that's wisdom? It isn't even logically correct.
The correct thing to say is: 'If there were no deluded people believing in imaginary "beings", we would all be atheists."
Really? Then it should be a easy task for the both of you to actually prove that G.K. was wrong, shouldn't it? So prove it. I dare ya!
Unless it was a Poe, then no, that was not the irony I'm talking about. As I said above, I like your writing style though, intentional or not.
Webster Cook, the fellow whose rights PZ was supposedly standing up for, has been impeached by the student judiciary Committee at UCF. He is a member of the Student Senate. Now the Senate investigates to determine his ouster from office.
I have found that there are three types you don't want on your back: the IRS, the SEC, and the Bill Donohues of this world. PZ has one blog titled "Not Again". I'm afraid so PZ, again, again and again until, as Donohue puts it, "Justice is done". I think this current post assures that the pressure will intensify.
There were tornadoes out here?
I had some rain (and it got really dark at 4:30ish) but it's just mild and damp in the Hub today. Saw the crawl on the tv mentioning lightning, but that's lightning...for some reason I have a hard time seeing lightning strikes as news, but I grew up in the Midwest and thunderstorms seem a hell of a lot more frequent out there.
then again, we were supposed to fall in the ocean in 2004, so blasphemy, desecration, wrath of god, or whatever doesn't seem like it's gonna have such dramatic effects.
What if the other religions now defile one of our sacred atheist objects in retribution! You know, the ones all us fundamentalist atheists are always praying to and stuff. Oh, right.
Here is an analogy you might understand. Suppose you had a very sacred book outlining your philosophy on life. This book also happened to be stitched together and bound in the skin and flesh of a loved one who had recently passed away...
I'm pretty sure I saw that episode of 'Tales from the Crypt'. Is that the one where the taxidermist involved felt bad about his part in it, tied to go to the police, but the crazed husband caught on and used him to make a hammock and two bookends, which he also placed in the library?
... Damn, but that was a weird show.
How is it that your spawn survives? God has displayed a penchant for the eradication of first-borns when he is mocked.
I think I know the answer!
Sorry about the spoiler PZ. :-)
Come on. This has to be some kind of theater of the absurd.
I'm with you, Mike (#401). The rehashing of the same old shit has been re-rehashed so many hashing times by now that I can't even summon any more ridicule; not even a snide one-liner seems worth the trouble of typing it any more. Nutty idiots clogging comment threads is just old hat now. Boring in fact.
Catholic cracker-worshippers: I yawn in your general direction and take my leave from the whole Ineffable Holy Magical Cracker scene.
Pharyngulistas: "see" you when something interesting happens.
Sky-Fairy.
Agreed, the Nazis were the most scientifically advanced society of their day.
When my mother dies, I'll likely bury or cremate her, rather than send her to the tannery and then a bookbinder, but then, I'm not a Catholic.
"Here is an analogy you might understand. Suppose you had a very sacred book outlining your philosophy on life. This book also happened to be stitched together and bound in the skin and flesh of a loved one who had recently passed away.
Now desecrating the Eucharist would have the same effect as desecrating that book and posting the evidence in glee.
Again, WRONG.
More like - suppose you had a very sacred book... ... and you IMAGINED it was bound in the flesh of a loved one. Because your cracker IS NOT THE FLESH of a loved one, you simply have the delusional belief that it is.
Now, if you, as an individual, had a book that you delusionally thought was bound in mommy-hide when it wasn't, on an individual basis it might be mean to taunt you about it. The compassionate thing to do would be to get you psychiatric care. If you'd like similar compassion from us over your cracker delusion, I'm sure we could find you a shrink.
But if there was a huge, insanely wealthy and powerful organization of millions with the same book-skin delusion, and that organization was demanding respect for their imaginary skin-book and threatening anyone who pointed out that the book was actually a paperback, THEN it would be appropriate to respond in the way we are responding.
If you're going to make analogies, STOP MAKING FALSE ONES.
We're not fucking stupid, you're not going to slip one by us.
Being emotional about the body of a loved one is understandable. Being emotional about a pastry is INSANE.
This is manifestly untrue. Insanity is a clinical psychological diagnosis. On any objective clinical or psychological guidelines, countless believing Catholics are in fact lucidly and perfectly sane. Your contempt for their beliefs does not render a medical diagnosis.
"And heres the final thing... you can wail and scream and cry and threaten and twist logic all you want - but we will NEVER see your cracker as anything but a cracker."
There seems to be a confusion here. I make no plea for PZ or anyone else to make the slightest act of obeisance to my faith. I don't ask that he tip his hat as he passes my church or bow his head at the name of Jesus.
But here's the thing. I do ask, in a spirit of humanistic respect and common decency, that he and his friends stay out of my church unless they are genuinely curious and willing to behave respectfully, leave our rituals alone, and in particular not invade our sacred space for the express purpose of taking what is most sacred to us out of our sacred space and do stuff to it for the sole purpose of rebuffing our objections.
Is that really too much to ask?
Baba #473: Aside from losing on the strength of Godwin's Law, I think you'll find that that's not true.
"I'd like to submit as evidence of the death threats the fact that a man CONFESSED TO MAKING ONE, and his wife was fired from her job at 1-800-FLOWERS because he used her email account to do it."
So say *you*. Where's the proof??? Documented, empirical proof, Love.
According the the City of Morris Police Department, there is none. And I believe them any day over you--unless, of course, you've got something substantial to backl it up with.
Also, Little Paul claims that's he's been on the receiving end of *multiple* death threats--is this alleged flower guy even tied to this present issue directly? After all, Little Paul has great talent for habitually losing friends (I've found a few of them over the past week) and pissing off the masses--this ain't his first self-serving fire.
Give me ascertainable FACTS or go back to the 'toons in Mommy's basement. And take a shower while you're at it, Love; you'll feel better.
Baba said:
ra·tion·al
1.agreeable to reason; reasonable; sensible
2.having or exercising reason, sound judgment, or good sense
rea·son
4.sound judgment; good sense.
8.to think or argue in a logical manner.
9.to form conclusions, judgments, or inferences from facts or premises.
As long as we agree on definitions for those words, there is indeed measurable evidence for all of them.
And the highlighted words are particularly easy to demonstrate.
SC,
Yeah, my thoughts exactly. Next it'll be "suppose you made a purse out of your own scrotum".
Utterly bizarre!
I had some rain (and it got really dark at 4:30ish) but it's just mild and damp in the Hub today.
Got the big storms down here, but it's beautiful now.
Bye, Sven. *mini-pout*
Hehe. They haven't noticed that PZ doesn't need to sway us. We sashayed our own way to the same conclusion. Religion is some inane goofy crap based on superstition, fear and metaphysical mumbojumbo.
Pete Rooke (460)
Your analogy of (me) having a skin bound book of precious philosopy stretches analogy to a new world record. I laughed uncontrolably for the first time in 14,000 posts. Thank you.
If I had such a thing surely I could also beleive in Jesus Extend-A-Fleshes.
I would like to point out various aspects of teh stupid that seem to be recurring themes in this discussion:
1. Atheism/Catholicism was the reason the holocaust happened (and variations thereof)-
Let's make one thing perfectly fucking clear: Hitler made the holocaust happen. Period.
Just like Stalin made the Purges happen, just like Genghis Khan made the Mongolian Empire happen, just like Tang Taizong made Chinese reunification happen. Mature, scholarly interpretations of history do not place emphasis on singular ideologies, but on the agency of the groups and individuals who created and acted on them. A lot of factors played into these things I mentioned, but in the end the keystone is one individual. Can we now please just move the fuck on?
2. How can this offend?-
Easy, it's interpreted by the targeted party to offend. That's all it takes. Any other view of what constitutes offense is naive. Offense is subjective. No one gets to decide, "x is offensive, but y is not" for somebody else. Offense is inherently irrational and visceral. It is always a cultural construction.
I could ask why Atheists are so offended by the notion that someone is praying for them. I know why of course, but it's not a rational thing, it's visceral and depends on how you interpret the gesture. If you interpret it as condescending, you're offended. If you interpret it as blindly ignorant, you might feel pity more than offense. Offense has nothing to do with the spirit with which the communication was offered, but how it will be received.
Whether that makes PZ wrong or right is another matter, but the point is that is an act designed to provoke. Anyone who doesn't see that is fucking stupid. (Yes, that is intended to offend, but I might still be unsuccessful, see how that works?)
#478
*Sigh* We get it, you're an idiot. Mission accomplished. We are fully aware of this. You can leave now if you're just going to continue with this same tired schtick. If you're just going to keep with the trolling and the silliness, you're kind of redundant since we already have plenty of other Catholic trolls at the moment.
I mean, at least you're kind of trying. The cutesy "dears" and "Loves" and such are colorful, but have you considered saying "I love it so!" after every other paragraph? Just a thought.
So say *you*. Where's the proof??? Documented, empirical proof, Love.
I'm taking it on faith. A higher authority - the people at 1-800-FLOWERS, have issued a holy writ or press release or whatever you call it.
Gentlemen I must commend you for going all Leon Redbone so far. Nick you are the master of catholic girly-slaps. Poor Pete Rooke...
But I think you're ahead MAJeff, you should frame #426.
I'm having pork steaks in honor of the desecration & PZ's boys birthday. Oh, gluttony and wine!
Andyo, you're absolutely right in that no one has the right not be offended. I don't mind being challenged in my belief; everyone should be in order to learn why they believe what they believe. But what is bothering Catholics--at the most basic level--has to do with the impinging on our right to practice our belief, sort of the idea that your rights stop where mine begins. The fact that someone came into our Church just to misleadingly acquire something is unethical and reason for upset, yes? It's not like we willingly handed over a Host to a non-believer and said have at it...THEN got upset.
And yes (I forgot who said this bit) but Catholics wrongly take the Eucharist weekly--and that is immoral by our standard and it sucks. They are either ignorantly practicing their religion or willfully ignoring its tenets--both of which is idiotic.
PZ's initial intention to defend that kid was fine, I think, but the way in which he protested the treatment actually distracted everyone from his original argument completely.
Pete Rook #460 wrote:
In which case I'd be a creepy ghoul?
Sorry, coming in late and I haven't been following the whole thread, but this seems like a poor analogy. It would be closer perhaps if the purpose of the desecration was to point out the absurdity of using human skin to bind books, and then claiming these books must have been written or influenced by the person whose skin was used. Ghoulishness aside, such an assertion would be incorrect. Mistaken. And not a good idea to cling to.
I cannot just "suppose I had a very sacred book outlining my ideas of life," because I try to make a fine and clear distinction between admiration and reverence, and I think human beings are too fallible to adhere to the latter. It would be wrong for me to have a "very sacred book." Ideas are not sacred. Neither are objects. The whole concept of "sacred" -- untouchable, unquestionable, unexamined, and closed off from dissent -- is not a concept which stands the light of day in the free marketplace of ideas.
And perhaps it is time the light was turned on it.
Here is an analogy you might understand. Suppose you had a very sacred book outlining your philosophy on life. This book also happened to be stitched together and bound in the skin and flesh of a loved one who had recently passed away.
Now desecrating the Eucharist would have the same effect as desecrating that book and posting the evidence in glee.
This analogy works very well if you are wheat.
383
Oh I knew that had to show up. Pinhead, homosexuality =/= pedophilia.
SDG #298: Did you see what happened to Graham Chapman's ashes?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utHmeN31RT0
I do ask, in a spirit of humanistic respect and common decency, that he and his friends stay out of my church unless they are genuinely curious and willing to behave respectfully, leave our rituals alone, and in particular not invade our sacred space for the express purpose of taking what is most sacred to us out of our sacred space and do stuff to it for the sole purpose of rebuffing our objections.
Is that really too much to ask?
Posted by: SDG | July 23, 2008 7:06 PM
Does that mean I also have to return the itchy bodysuit underwear I took from that Mormon Tabernacle?
And what about the Catholic sheet with the penis hole embroidered in the center? Can I keep it? I bought it at the Salvation Army so it is legally mine.
"This analogy works very well if you are wheat."
Better than being chaff any day.
Seriously. Fuck chaff.
"but the point is that is an act designed to provoke."
I don't think anyone's arguing that it isn't. Some think it's just intended to provoke anger. Others think it's intended to provoke thought and a realization that crackers are actually just crackers. And others might think that it might simply be intended to provoke an understanding that you can't force people to respect your sacred cows... or even simply that PZ won't give in to threats.
I haven't seen anyone argue that it's merely intended as an act of idle whimsy that PZ hopes nobody notices.
Max Verret threatening PZ again:
I'm afraid so PZ, again, again and again until, as Donohue puts it, "Justice is done". I think this current post assures that the pressure will intensify.
Oooh, threats. Again. You are right about Donohue. He makes the Catholics look like rabid Moslem terrorists with brains the size of a walnut. The vast majority of the 75 million US Catholics probably ignore him unless they wish he would just shut up.
Don't you have some protestants to kill or witches to burn or heretics to torture or something? Really, catholism today is a shadow of its former glory.
Peter Rooke:
This book also happened to be stitched together and bound in the skin and flesh of a loved one who had recently passed away.
What sick analogy is that? Binding a book with a loved one's skin is Ed Geinn shit. Proper burial of that artifact is what most protestants and atheists alike would choose, except for a few Antiquarian Bibliophiles, but I digress...
Can't you see the macabre character of your religion? The reliquaries with bits of people in them?
Yes,you could get someone arrested if they stole a chalice or a relic. That is theft pure and simple. No equivocating. But, the wafer is a massed produced, inexpensive product used in a theatrical reenactment of the Last Supper. It is symbolic. No part of Jesus is actually present, even if you were taught to believe it. It is THEATER. And yes, it may hurt your feelings, but you choose to give it more emphasis than it merits. It's a wafer, the ceremonial rite contains all the meaning, not the wafer itself.
A very happy birthday to your Son, PZ and I hope you both enjoyed the movie.
JC
#473: Agreed, the Nazis were the most scientifically advanced society of their day.
Uh, no they weren't. Unless you're thinking of the Volkswagen. The Nazis were pseudoscientific cranks and mystics. If they had been the most scientifically advanced culture at the time, they'd have developed the bomb and won the war. Which they didn't, because all the top scientists in the region at the time, like that Albert fella, fled the country. In case you hadn't heard.
#478: Not very good at using the internets, are we, Miki? I guess you and John McCain need to sign up for lessons together.
Here is an analogy you might understand. Suppose you had a very sacred book outlining your philosophy on life. This book also happened to be stitched together and bound in the skin and flesh of a loved one who had recently passed away.
What if that loved one was invincible and lived forever and had omnipotent powers. Would they even give a freakin crap? Would they still be your loved one if they threw your friends and loved ones in frekin eternal torture for freakin ever? Doh!
Neither -similarly not
is - 3rd person singular, present tense of "to be"
there - on that point, or in that particular respect
any - any part,quantity or number.
measurable - that which can be ascertained through measurement.
evidence - offering evidence of.
for - in support of.
rationality - describes the rationale.
the - definite article.
god -
atheism - dis-belief in not being an asshole.
Miki Tracy
Death Threat
Title of email: Thread-Topic: "your short life"
"Paul,
what I would like to know is how did you even
get a job at a collage.
when you are obviously a moron.
How would you feel if nice folks starting ranting against
Fags, and atheist like yourself.
well sir, you don't get to blaspheme and walk away from this.
You have two choices my fucked up friend, first you can quit your job for the good of the
children. Or you can get your brains beat in.
I give you till the first of the month, get that resignation in cunt"
Confession
c kroll, on July 16th, 2008 at 12:11 am Said:
"Melanie Kroll did not send an email to anyone named Paul. Melanie Kroll did not threaten anyone in an email with death, or as was the case in the email in question, a physical beating.
this email did not come from 1-800-flowers, or anyone connected in anyway shape or form to that company, which happens to provide good paying jobs, for lot's of folks who might otherwise not have them. they also happen to provide a good product at a fair price.
The fact is, that this email to the so called professor, was sent by an angry male catholic, who was very upset after reading that some crazed person in a position of responsibility, charged with teaching children biology, had been encouraging people to steal and desecrate the body of CHRIST, which for Catholics is represented by the Eucharist.
I know this to be true, since I wrote the original email to this so called teacher.
[...]
C. Kroll,
Brookhaven, NY"
"Really? Then it should be a easy task for the both of you to actually prove that G.K. was wrong, shouldn't it? So prove it. I dare ya!"
I am delighted and relieved for your eternal soul to know that now, based on this standard, you fervently believe that the universe was created by Popeye in a giant cosmic spinach fart.