Yes, the sad little cracker has met its undignified end, so stop pestering me. The cracker, the koran, and another surprise entry have been violated and are gone. You'll have to wait until tomorrow for the details, what little of them there are. I must quickly apologize to all you good Catholics who were hoping to attend Mass, since you can't anymore — I have been told many hundreds of times now that cracker abuse violates your right to practice your religion. I guess you'll have to adapt. Secular humanism is a good alternative, if you aren't already flocking to join the Mormons.
Anyway, I've got important things to do today. It's my oldest son's birthday, and I told him that as a gift to me him, I'd take myself him to see The Dark Knight. I sure hope the world doesn't end before the movie does.
Did you see what happened to Graham Chapman's ashes?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utHmeN31RT0
Posted by: El Herring | July 23, 2008 7:17 PM
Best. Funeral. Ever.
Pete Rook @ 460 - That's really disgusting. Almost as disgusting as pretending to eat someone's flesh and blood.
It seems to me that all of your analogies trying to equate the host with defacing valuable items comes down to this - if someone walks out of the church without having eaten it, unless he/she is seen - nobody ever actually notices that one missing. People will notice if a grave is disturbed. A synagogue will notice if one of their scrolls are taken.
How many hosts are produced and consumed every day? They are worthless and go unnoticed. It's like taking a shell from a beach. The ones PZ had until today had apparently been taken out of church years ago! Nobody filed a police report about several missing crackers! Get over it and get on with your life.
And Patricia, your posts make me laugh out loud.
Miki/Craig, about the Chesterton idiocy. ... it's quite easy.
You don't need a God to exist in order to believe in it. Did it ever come to you that you're just deluded.
So when you say "I believe in God", it doesn't automagically mean that there is one. If that was true, then you are in trouble. Why? Because: "If there was no Zeus, there would be no people not believing in him".
See ...
I do ask, in a spirit of humanistic respect and common decency, that he and his friends stay out of my church unless they are genuinely curious and willing to behave respectfully, leave our rituals alone, and in particular not invade our sacred space for the express purpose of taking what is most sacred to us out of our sacred space and do stuff to it for the sole purpose of rebuffing our objections.
This is a big fear of yours, isn't it? That some atheist is going to walk in off the street and take your crackers.
They are either ignorantly practicing their religion or willfully ignoring its tenets--both of which is idiotic.
Those options aren't exhaustive. Most likely, nobody in the entire world actually believes any of the bat-shit insane crap this incident has induced Catholics to profess. You're all a bunch of pathetic liars playing a bizarre game of epistemological chicken with the fundies and the jihadists to seee who can claim to believe the weirdest shit. It would be fucking hilarious if it weren't so frightening.
You all mock my analogy because perhaps the thought of PZ Myer's (and your?) actions have finally sunk in.
"Crackergate" is not so funny now is it?
For those unfamiliar with the 17th century practice (rumoured to still occur in various cults - no doubt atheistic) here is a link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropodermic_bibliopegy
Sky-fairy - Baba
Liar.
Agreed, the Nazis were the most scientifically advanced society of their day. - Baba
Baba, it is both stupid and childish to "agree" with something you know has not been stated. You are, of course, fortunately, wrong; if they had been, they would likely have won WW2. If they had not, in their irrationality, driven out many of their best scientists, they might indeed have been the most scientifically advanced; but they did, so they weren't.
I mean Miki... etc
not Miki/Craig :)
My guess for the third party: a plate of spaghetti, tossed in the garbage with the Qur'an and the cracker.
Or maybe the aura of an Indigo Child.
Uh-huh.
Emmet @ 453,
Azteca @#305, LOL!
Your welcome.
I was incognito.
Todd, as far as "big fears" go, this doesn't even rate. That's a bit of a drama queen statement, don't you think? It's just an expectation of civility.
The scariest thing about this whole incident is that it's shown that around 1,000,000,000 people are part of a cracker-worshipping cult. Worshipping a Jew zombie was bad enough...
You all mock my analogy because perhaps the thought of PZ Myer's (and your?) actions have finally sunk in.
No, we are mocking you because you equate human skin with flour.
You all mock my analogy because perhaps the thought of PZ Myer's (and your?) actions have finally sunk in.
No, but because you've demonstrated exactly how warped and sick you really are. You really are a sick little puppy.
"You all mock my analogy because perhaps the thought of PZ Myer's (and your?) actions have finally sunk in."
Glad to see you've completely cut ties with reality now.
... (rumoured to still occur in various cults - no doubt atheistic)...
Heh. See also the blood libel. Traditionally used against the Jews, of course. But ya know. Times change. Gotta change wit' em.
"You all mock my analogy because perhaps the thought of PZ Myer's (and your?) actions have finally sunk in."
No, we mock your analogy because its STUPID and false.
You STILL can't get it through your head that a cracker IS NOT THE FLESH OF YOUR LOVED ONE.
You keep constructing false analogies.
Again - the analogy would be correct if you had an object that was NOT your loved ones flesh that you delusionally BELIEVED was. It could be the book, a CD, or even, I dunno... a cracker.
Your cracker is NOT the flesh of anyone, and so you loved-one-skin book is a false analogy.
Construct an analogy where you invest a trivial worthless object with the delusion that it's your grandma, and THEN you're on the right track.
Like my #381 and #385 above.
"This analogy works very well if you are wheat."
Better than being chaff any day.
Seriously. Fuck chaff.
Posted by: OctoberMermaid | July 23, 2008 7:17 PM
Careful! The One and Only Wholey Grain Wheat Germ loves chaff just as much as loves Wonder Bread.
This site is supposed to be a science blog? Looks like nothing but a bunch of buffoonery carried out by a bunch of buffoons, chief among them "PZ".
ROTFLMAO
Uh, yes they were - tiger tanks, panther tanks, V1 and V2 rockets, the first assault rifle, the first jet aircraft, the first rocket propelled aircraft, autobahn and yes, the Volkswagon Beetle (they're still making 'em in Mexico).
Don't you know anything? Duh!
Pete Rooke
Your arcane knowledge of skin stretching and wild accusations about secret macabre practices doesn't make the analogy any less dumb. Just richer in irony.
Let me explain why taking the consecrated Host at Mass and pocketing it is a disruption. The purpose of worship for Catholics is the Sacrifice of the Mass and receiving Holy Communion. If we have thousands of atheists deciding to come to our churches and desecrating the Hosts then we have to figure out what to do. Do we limit access? Do we ask for ID's? Do we only give Holy Communion to those we know personally etc.?
See what happens? Our ability to practice our faith and worship is disrupted. We have to worry about who is at Mass and what they will do. PZ has set a precedent. But he is not the first, atheists disrupted Mass in New York and desecrated the Eucharist during Mass and in Canada a group of them tore up a tabernacle trying to get it open. In Chicago a group of protesters pled guilty to disrupting a Mass. Such incidents are becoming more common.
Communion is given to be consumed at Mass, an implied contract if you will. We, like every Church, have rules about who can receive Holy Communion. Within our Church we can enforce these rules and the courts will support us. To come with another purpose is to interfere with our rights, the very ones you swear you would uphold.
What you are asking for is the right to interfere with our worship and that would change how we conduct our services. You do NOT have that right. Federal law and the Constitution guarantee that we can worship in peace. So ridicule our faith if you must, but do not come to Mass with criminal intent. Whoever gave PZ the Eucharist, if he had been caught, would have been accountable by the law. You may disagree, but just try it and find out if I am right.
You have told me that if I don't like this blog to stay away. If YOU don't like Mass then YOU stay away. If you want to debate us in the public square then do so with reason and logic, if you can. If you don't like how we vote then vote for the other guy. Don't try to silence our point of view. Don't just call us pedophiles and smirk like somehow you won the argument. Don't pull juvenile stunts like PZ had done, which are unworthy of any mature professional adult.
What I fear is that a bunch of idiots will decide to emulate PZ. They will go to a Catholic Church and desecrate the Eucharist. They will think it is funny, but they will go to jail. I do not believe that the authorities will allow wholesale interference in our right to freely exercise our religion.
2000 years ago they decided that if they crucified Jesus they would finish off his movement. It would prove he was a weak failure. Ooops, didn't work did it? Now you think that by desecrating the Eucharist you will show God is weak? LOL, when PZ is long forgotten the Catholic Church will still be here. Many before you have attacked us. Doing this only shows your true colors and even some atheists have told you that it makes you look really bad. When will you learn that persecution only makes us stronger? We have already won. Pax
"I am delighted and relieved for your eternal soul to know that now, based on this standard, you fervently believe that the universe was created by Popeye in a giant cosmic spinach fart."
No, Craig, the idiot who sent the alleged email is not making a direct threat--only an implication--nor do they say that they're the one's who with be giving the beating. There isn't any implication of death, here, either, just a threatened *CONDITIONAL* [as in, not a crime] beat down.
SHOW ME POLICE EVIDENCE OF ANY DIRECT THREATS MADE ON LITTLE PAUL'S *LIFE*.
I still maintain that none really exist--nor is there any evidence to support that the above-named aggressor is really Catholic. Or a person. Anyone can openb a hotmail account, right?
And, saying that I believe in a cosmic, spinach-farting Popeye doesn't make that aspersion true, either. In fact, all it really does is demonstrate that you are sloppy with your insults as you are with fact-finding.
...So sad. So self-serving....
Keep it up, Love. I'm still prayin' for you. ;o)
#505 - Akshelby, a curtsy to you! :) Free grog and swill tonight.
We must be getting crackered out, I can't even muster my outrageous french accent. Good thing OctoberMaid is here for the ladies team!
Oh Emmet, Voxday has posted your comments, the sniveling coward.
Jonesy, it's all buffoonery when religion is thrown in.
But anne, think of the poor crackers. Oh the humanity.
Yeah, that's real respectful of other beliefs.
Especially since the Catholic Church has a history of converting real and accused members of those groups into ashes.
By setting them ON FIRE.
"This site is supposed to be a science blog? Looks like nothing but a bunch of buffoonery carried out by a bunch of buffoons, chief among them "PZ".
ROTFLMAO"
Um, wow. Yeah. Sick burn, there, fella. Nice one. No, really.
SDG #476 wrote:
I think the point being made here is that the Church didn't just keep its beliefs within the limits of its own "sacred space." The over-reaction to Mr. Cook's infraction was a clear and blatant attempt to extend the idea of desecration and outrage into the public square, and be treated as if it were a genuine criminal matter.
As others have mentioned, had the Church simply condemned Cook, excommunicated him, or refused to allow him any more sacraments, neither PZ nor anyone else would have noticed or cared. It would be an internal matter. Instead, there was a great deal of grandstanding, all to the effect of making the point that "the sacred" was to be seen as a real, important thing -- even to those outside the faith. The strength of a belief demands that everyone treat it as true.
That is not right. I think it is more disrespectful to Catholics as people to pander, kowtow, and pretend they have every right to be outraged, for the religious cannot be expected to understand the difference between a kid taking a cracker home, and a "kidnapping." Yes they can: the problem is not the people, it's the religion. They do know better. They should be encouraged to recognise that.
And when the explanation for the sacrilege is spelled out in the public square -- "it's the body of Christ, you see" -- then it becomes fair game for public discussion, debate, denouncement, and, eventually, desecration.
Miki Tracy,
You are a particularly brazen liar; you keep it up even when the evidence is placed right in front of you. One has to reluctantly admire your crust.
"SHOW ME POLICE EVIDENCE OF ANY DIRECT THREATS MADE ON LITTLE"
For many people, beating their head in proves fatal. Some of us keep brains there.
Don't just call us pedophiles and smirk like somehow you won the argument
Haven't done so you lying sack of shit. We've called you a pedophile protection racket, a criminal organization that protected child rapists and continued to give them access to children...and continues to protect the protectors. Yes, a criminal organization.
Done lying yet fuckwit?
"This is a big fear of yours, isn't it? That some atheist is going to walk in off the street and take your crackers."
Believe it or not, I have a rich and fulfilling intellectual life in which this issue has come recently to occupy a small part. I invite you to check out my website -- say, my review of the movie PZ went to see tonight. I'm pleased to say I have a number of atheists and agnostics among my readership who appreciate my perspective.
I suspect a number of people posting here spend a lot more time fretting about God than I spend fretting about PZ Myers. I say a number, not most or all.
But I do take an active interest in people treating one another with respect, yes. That includes Christians treating with respect those with different beliefs from theirs, including atheists. And it includes atheists treating Christians with respect.
I don't think that's too much to hope or ask for. Do you?
Max Verret @ 465 We "manhandled" your imaginary god, so I am sure we can handle The Bill Donahues and assorted morons who attempt to roughshod on this site. We have pure unadulturated reason(sic) and the punch to remind you that you are demented cretins and will be emaciated if you persist in your moronic pukings. We are omnipotent.
What I fear is that a bunch of idiots will decide to emulate PZ. They will go to a Catholic Church and desecrate the Eucharist. They will think it is funny, but they will go to jail. I do not believe that the authorities will allow wholesale interference in our right to freely exercise our religion.
Fr. J is very concerned about his crackers. Maybe someone should talk to him and assure him that nobody wants his stupid crackers.
anne, do you understand what a threat is? You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
It seems you don't think it's a threat unless PZ is attacked. Also, Morris PD might not be appropriate to contact for a cross-country threat. But I don't think the FBI will tell you what they are investigating.
No, it's not. Not at all.
Is it too much to ask that you keep your sanctions for religious infraction within the law?
Is it too much to ask that you stop protecting and moving around child-rapists?
Is it too much to ask that you cooperate with law-enforcement investigating child-rape and child sexual abuse?
Is it too much to ask that you might stop lying about the value of condoms in combating the spread of HIV/AIDS in Africa?
Is it too much to ask that you stop telling the rest of us:
a) what we may do with our genitals
b) what we may research in a biology lab
c) who we may love and marry
That'd be great, thanks.
Dear Sir/Madam,
I wish to complain.
Fr.J is using this list to preach and prostyletize.
I also accuse him of godbotting, stupidity and wanking.
Thank you,
Patricia
Yesterday I posted a comment on the Catholic forum thread;
'Video Report On Eucharist Theft At UCF Webster F. Cook - Catholic Answers Forums'
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=251659
I have since discovered that not only has my post been deleted, but I have been banned from even READING this thread any longer.
When I attempt to view the page, I receive the following message;
"DingoDave, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:
-The page may have been pulled from the public forum due to a serious breach of forum rules.
-Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
-If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation"
Here is the comment I posted;
To those of you who are skeptical about whether PZ Myers (or Webster Cook for that matter) have been receiving unpleasant or threatening communications from members of the Catholic community, then here is a very small sample of the kinds of e-mails which have been sent to Professor Myers. The people who sent these must be Catholics, because who else would get so steamed up about a threat to a communion cracker? Professor Myers has recieved hundreds of these.
Read and enjoy.
-"Since you mentioned fatwa, I bet you don't have the balls to descreat a Koran...Go ahead, I dare you."
-"Do you want to demonstrate REAL courage by desecrating a religious symbol? Make an image of Mohamed (one serious affront to Islam) then desecrate it (another even more serious affront to the "religion of peace"). Of course, that would expose your person to actual, corporeal danger. What's the matter? Don't you have the stomach for real confrontation?"
A new catchphrase has been coined because of the many comments like these, which Professor Myers has received. It's called 'Fatwa Envy'.
And now for some threatening e-mails;
-"IF Catholics had half the testosterone of muzzies, the answer would be simple. Holy hollowpoint. But alas, I expect they will whimper and grovel as usual."
This was followed shortly thereafter by this little gem.
-"PS - I find it rather funny that so many people are incredibly tolerant (nice buzzword) until they feel offended. Then all tolerance goes out the window."
Oh, the irony!
And here is the one which caused Chuck Kroll's wife to get fired from her job.
-"Well sir, you don't get to blaspheme and walk away from this. You have two choices my ****ed up friend, first you can quit your job for the good of the children. Or you can get your brains beat in. I give you till the first of the month, get that resignation in ****."
-"You are really ****ed now. Lock your doors at night, and check under your car before you turn the ignition key."
-"You are a monster. We need another Inquisition to root out idiots like you (and anyway, the Church only excommunicated heretics and witches, then handed them over to the state for punishment. We never executed them directly). Losers like you will suffer. I hope and pray that this will loose (sic) you your job and your career."
-"Come on down to Florida. We know how to welcome bastards like you.....with a bullet."
-"Thank you for your comment regarding the desecration of the Eucharist. I am sure Jesus has heard it and will respond accordingly. It may hurt a little, but don't worry.."
I'm afraid that some of your 'Christian bretheren' out there are making the rest of you look like psychopathic, vindictive fools. And don't try telling me that these people aren't 'real Catholics'. Inquisition anyone?
If any of you are interested in reading many more e-mails like these, then go here;
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/i_get_email_special_cracker_…
Regards, David.
So, it seems that my single humble post has now been added to the church's 'Index of Prohibited Books'. : )
It appears that Catholics don't like letting the facts get in the way of a good story.
If anyone else would like to attempt to re-post my comment, or post a comment of your own, then go for it.
I respect you as a human being.
I tolerate your beliefs only as far as they don't interfere with my belief that they deserve no respect. Kapeesh?
"Don't try to silence our point of view."
oh shit... did some atheist organization start a campaign to get you fired from your job unless you stopped speaking your mind? 'Cause if so, that would be bad.
Glen D wrote:
Not me. I was hoping for PZ to exploit it for more media coverage. But I guess the attention he got wasn't the kind he wanted... from both sides.
I think PZ stuck the crackers to the Salvation Army "pot" for their soup kitchen (to help feed the hungry) and the Quaran to a library.
You may not realize this since your seem rather rock-stupid, but there is more than this entry in this blog.
Just remember to breathe while that sinks in. I'd hate for you to stroke out and cripple that unused puddle of sludge between your ears.
Who knew, an attention whore with a blog.
Miki "Good Catholics go to war on their knees. Good atheists just spew insults, hate and intolerance. Good Catholics offer Masses for the conversion of morons. Good atheists rail against them for their kindness. Poor atheists.
We pray for you. We love you. And we want to give you a hug!"
I just threw up a little in my mouth.
Your Mom's a liar.
I agree.
See post 526 and then go back and finish college - emphasize the history classes.
I came accross this article written by George Weigel, Distinguished Senior Fellow of the Ethics and Public Policy Center, and a leading Catholic theologian :
What about the violent reactions of Catholics to Webster Cook ? Did they try to enter into a dialogue, or were those acts of coercion undertaken in the Church's name and therefore offenses against its own true doctrine ?
What about Bill Donohue and all the violent reactions of Catholics to PZ that he stimulated by his various bigotted press releases ? Did they try to enter into a dialogue, or were those acts of coercion undertaken in the Church's name and therefore offenses against its own true doctrine ?
Yes, Catholics failed once again to resist the temptation to behave according to these bad reflex that they have so deeply rooted in their brains.
No, the Church still won't do a thing about it, only maybe in 20 years a nice encyclical letter that noone will read and another "pardon" from yet another useless Pope.
Nick Gotts at #422 - I must admit it was deliberate and thanks. (smile)
Damn!
I take the wife & kids to see Wall-e & have dinner, and I miss the desecration. What time is the next show?
"That includes Christians treating with respect those with different beliefs from theirs, including atheists."
Sounds good... when were you guys planning to start that?
Wait... you mean that the church ISNT going to stop preaching every week that atheists and all non-Catholics are wicked and deserving of eternal torture? Cause amongst sane folks, that's considered a tad disrespectful.
OK since you don't get it I will try a different tack of a variation I constructed a few blog entries back.
Young ladies like to wear an item of clothing called a mini-skirt these days. The material is often sheer and by its definition does not even come close to covering the knee roll.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniskirt)
Now if someone chooses to wear such an item it does not in the least bit make rape and sexual abuse permissible despite the fact that the odds increase exponentially. In both the eyes of the secular law and of my religion the assailants are still just as culpable.
So merely because Catholicism may seem like a remarkably soft target for PZ Myers (he has since been roped into desecrating the Koran) he is still as culpable as someone who chooses to attack say the more benign and watered down religions of Quakerism/Unitarian-Universalism.
Baba@526,
All the examples you cite are of technological innovation rather than science as such - and for most of them, the research predated the Nazi regime. The Nazis rejected "Jewish science" such as relativity - and in doing so, rejected the core of scientific rationality, that ideas are judged by their explanatory value and evidential support, not by who originated them. There is no doubt they had severely damaged German science, which was indeed perhaps the most advanced in the world before they came to power, by the end of their short period in power. Hitler's contempt for rationality, of course, was profound - possibly even equal to your own.
"Your Mom's a liar."
My mother is a SAINT!
Well, I mean, not a Catholic saint.. I mean, don't send me any death threats or anything. I'm just saying, you know... Lovely woman. Total class.
Miki Tracy:
You are so dishonest.
Which part of "your short life", and "quit your job for the good of the children. Or you can get your brains beat in", doesn't constitute a threat on someones life?
Next you'll argue that we do have short lives and that it was simply a factual statement.
Disgusting.
Calling your religion bullshit is not disrespecting you, it's disrespecting your religion. Not the same.
Is your first-born still alive?
Pete Rooke certainly has some weird and unhealthy obsessions, hm?
Oh, god...he's doing the misogynist mini-skirt rape trick again.
You really are a vile human without any sense of proportion or morality, rooke.
A cracker? A cracker? We talkin' bout a cracker? Most of these Catholics support the Bush crusade, sanctioning the murder of innocent men, woman and children, and they decry the abuse of a cracker?
negen, Mr. Cook was not in dialogue nor is PZ. Desecrating is not dialoguing. Read my earlier post. What do you think about the "dialogue" that the atheists are engaging in here? I don't see any anger from you about it. Selective in our outrage aren't we?
Yowza! Really, dude. Now you're just getting pathetic.
NEWSFLASH
The Catholic Church is like a girlie with a miniskirt! Inviting atheists to rape her ...
Pete, that's a really stupid analogy. You should stop doing this, you're not good at it.
So crumbling a cracker is rape, Pete?
You are one stupid motherfucker. PZ has routinely pointed out stupidity and poor actions of many other delusions, religions, astrology, etc.
Where were you in those threads? I didn't see you.
As far as quakers, well, stupid beliefs are stupid beliefs, but some people with stupid beliefs don't tend to make quite as much pests of themselves as others.
Oh, for Pete's sake, all this has gone beyond ridiculous. "Ridiculous" is even serious and sensible compared to this. No one outside the mostly heathen readers of Pharyngula would have ever known of this desecration business (much less been offended by it) if not for the howling of the very same people who are now claiming that PZ does it just to offend them.
(There goes my little comment, doomed to go unread forever and accomplishing little more than to bring the comment count to 1,000 a few seconds earlier.)
OctoberMermaid: "Most likely she just stayed long enough to ejaculate all over the comments, but didn't stay to help clean it up."
I'm going to be stealing that line, with your permission. (Wait a minute, is it stealing if you ... oh, never mind.)
Mr. Slinky mentioned the Salvation Army. I looked in the phone book and found religious hospitals, charities, soup kitchens, shelters, and clinics. I don't see one, not one, founded by or run by atheists. Where is the Madelyn Murray O'Hare Memorial clinic or hospice? Where is the Charles Darwin soup kitchen? When someone is in need do they go to the local Freethinkers Society or to the St. Vincent de Paul Society? The later of course. That's another reason that atheists aren't respected or popular. Not only do they often look as if they have never smiled in their lives, but they don't seem interested in charity. Oh, now I am sure you will all post about all the good stuff you have done. But the facts are in the phone book. When people need help they come to us not you.
Craig, #557
hmmm, apparently they were "planning" to start in 1989 (see my post #554), but with the amount of delusion and cognitive disonance that they continue to cause, it might probably take another 100 years before it starts taking effect.
Yes, Pete Rooke does have some unhealthy obsessions. I think he has been reading a bit too much about Ed Gein, too. (E.V.!) Funny, I do believe it's not just the "young ladies" who wear miniskirts. Maybe Pete Rooke only notices the young ones.
It's Catholic misogyny at its finest.
As the friend of someone who has been raped, I say to you, Pete Rooke, "Fuck off and die." What you have experienced from P.Z desecrating a cracker is nothing compared to what any woman who has been raped has experienced.
Okay, I'm done reading this thread so long as Mr. Rooke is around. I shall go back to work now.
So wait...
Is Pete Rooke saying the Church giving away free magic crackers is the same as that a mini-skirt is an invitation to rape?
Dude. You're a freak.
Fr j @ 528 You have already won? If that is so, then your imaginary god is the loser, which is to say that you are the loser. How can you exclude your phony god in the battle? Are you saying that you did it by yourselves without the aid of a ghost god? So all this time we have been debating nothing but humans in the guise of an imaginary god who thinks it's human? Yes, you have won, but only in the sense that your irrationality is beyond the reach of winning anything but stricture in an insane asylum. You poor irrational excuses for god-like humans who cannot locate their god to have it present the winning prize. Sorry, but the crackers are disposed of, as is your imaginary god. Congratulations on your winning style as a moron.
P.Z.,
For someone who claims not to believe in God, you sure are wasting a lot of time trying to spit in his face. If there really is no God then your antics are a ridiculous waste of time. If, God is real and sovereign (as I believe) then your juvenile antics aren't going to bother him much - Though he probably will feel sorry for you. He would be glad to save you and give you a much more fullfilling life if you would just turn to him.
Fr. J: "but they don't seem interested in charity"
Exactly, where is their Mother Theresa? The most charitable atheist I can think of is infanticide fan Peter Singer.
OK since you don't get it I will try a different tack of a variation I constructed a few blog entries back...
Let me be the first to say: I support unto the death your right to wear a mini-skirt, dude, if that's really what you feel you gotta do, man. Might snicker a bit, depending on the state of your legs, but I totally promise not to try to rape you. And if anyone does, you let me know, I'll have words with 'em... We don't take kindly to people who rape guys who wear mini-skirts around here. Or something... I think...
Okay, actually, it hasn't come up much, yet. But I'm putting my foot down there, all the same...
But still, y'know, if you keep saying suitably amusing stuff about crackers turning into deities, I'm still gonna have to make fun of you. Them's the rules.
(Also: please don't make any of your deceased loved ones into a book. I'm not sure if it's actually illegal. But it's weird, that's fersure. The miniskirt, okay, I can get used to that. The book... that's just creepy.)
You're sad.
I forgot to mention Nazi biological sciences - which included experimentation on live subjects - that forms the basis of much of the medical technology we enjoy today. Hitler had no contempt for rationality - it formed the backbone of his ideology.
#545 - DingoDave - I owe you an apology. I mistook one of your remarks as being that of a goddist. Please pardon my stupidity, I'm sorry.
Fr. J, that might be true, but keep in mind that people also go to Hizbullah and the iranian mullahs for help. They are also running a big charity ...
Does that prove that they are good?
"Desecrating is not dialoguing. Read my earlier post. What do you think about the "dialogue" that the atheists are engaging in here? I don't see any anger from you about it. Selective in our outrage aren't we?"
It's a CRACKER. You cannot desecrate a cracker. In fact, you can't desecrate anything. You can do property damage, and that would be wrong, unless the property is yours, was purchased by you or was GIVEN TO YOU.
Yes, nothing is sacred.
Desecration is a religious concept, and demanding that we adhere to the concept is demanding that we take up religious beliefs.
You can be assured that I will never damage church property.
But if a Catholic gives me a cracker, I'll do with it whatever I want to.
I used to work for a Catholic organization. Some of the members send each other consecrated wafers at Christmas. For that reason, some have been sent to our home.
We threw them out. We're atheists, what the hell else are we supposed to do with them?
Sorry we threw out your jesus. :(
Andres Diplotti
Don't be so modest. Remember "a journey of a thousand posts starts with the second step".
You can look it up in your atheistic grandmother skin bound book of precious philosophy. :) (See post #460 if you need clarification)
MAJeff [325], I hope you're posting recipes!
Ah J, you seem to have brought up a good point. How do you prove who is a good catholic or not? For all you know "good catholics" have been pocketing crackers for thousands of years and yet here you are complaining, still not realizing that no actual disruption of your services has ever gone on. It's the very heart of the argument. You can't prove a damn thing; good catholic, jesus/cracker, or god herself.
This is laughable. Ridicule, scorn, argument and pocketing crackers freely given is not meant to silence you. It's meant to show you that your beliefs are false in that they hold no divine consequences.
What you believe the authorities will do and what will happen appear to be two different things. Pocketing crackers in no way restrains your absurd beliefs about them. Nor does the act, done without your knowledge effect you in any way whatsoever. And again, how will you convince the authorities that so and so isn't a good catholic?
Your assumptions do you in. There is little proof beyond the bible that Jesus himself ever existed at all.
In the end J, you haven't a leg to stand on. You rail and you quake with indignation, but you are impotent of action. And that is the point. You can do nothing, and your imaginary god will do likewise. Your beliefs are false. And thus is shown the arrogance in threats made against PZ's life. And lest we forget, the life of the sad student who started all this. Your coreligionists would kill them for a being they cannot know exists and a magical act they cannot know occurs. If a public image like this means winning for you J, then my friend, I wish you the best luck in the world.
Shorter Fr J and Rooke,
you fucking atheists don't show off enough when you do good works. How else is god supposed to know if you don't show off and instead just go about doing it?
Pete Rooke,
I used to wonder how a person of even minimal moral intelligence could remain in the the Child-Rape Support Club, but you've answered that one: you lack any morals whatsoever.
Rape is not equivalent to "obtaining a cracker without intent to ingest it immediately". No way. No how. Not ever. No amount of cracker abuse is equivalent to rape or, for that matter, any lesser violent crime.
You are one sick asshole.
Crap, MAJeff and Patricia always talk about food and now my salad looks pathetic. OK, should I go out for ribs, Memphis dry rub, or fresh caught shrimp? Decisions, decisions.
Love you all, may I call you all "love"? I will not pray for you, you are welcome.
Night sweeties
Craig, you obviously didn't understand my earlier post. There is an implied contract when you receive the Eucharist. It is given to you to consume on the spot. To do otherwise constitutes a disruption. You don't believe me? Then how did this whole mess start? By someone doing precisely that. We cannot have people invading churches to desecrate their sacraments. That is not your RIGHT, it interferes with our RIGHT to peacefully worship. If that bothers you, then to bad. Don't come to our Mass if you don't like it. I assure you that the authorities will crack down on those who make our worship difficult.
Fr. J:
I'm sorry, but there is not a nice way to say this: you're a plonker! [which isn't actually that bad]
There are hundreds of Secular charities.
Also, some of the greatest philanthropists are atheists.
Bill Gates - $11 billion
Warren Buffett - $30 billion [which is staggered]
And we do smile. In fact, I roll around of the floor every time I read one of your posts.
If you'd like me to take you seriously, START MAKING DECENT ARGUMENTS AND STOP MAKING SHIT UP.
You seem to lack basic reading comprehension. It was an analogy as opposed to a simile or metaphor.
OK- I didn't miss it after all.
I just received the video from a friend of mine at the NSA.
***SPOILER ALERT***
The NSA had diverted a Predator drone from the Mexican border to fly stealthily above pastoral Morris MN.
Just before sun-up this morning, Dr. Myers launched a small boat by remote control in a neighboring lake. The contents of the boat were identified to contain:
One cracker with cross (presumed to be "the wafer")
One copy of the Qu'ran
One copy of the King James Bible
One copy of Dianetics, by L. Ron Hubbard
One set of Morman underwear, women's size XL, soiled
One plate of steaming thin spaghetti with marinara sauce
and Two tickets to a 1996 Green Bay Packers playoff game
On the bow of the boat was a 12" statue of Jesus.
When the boat ran out approximately 100 yards, some combustable material on the boat was ignited, then the boat sank in a glorious Viking funeral which could be seen for miles.
I also got some info from a friend in the CIA that apparently, to piss off the Jews, PZ paid full retail for the boat.
***END SPOILER ALERT***
Emmett @#543:
Cheap scattershot is easy. Rational discussion is challenging. Talking about one thing is hard enough without talking about everything. The subject of this combox is desecrating the Eucharist. Am I to understand from your post that you agree PZ's actions are beyond the pale, and you'd like to discuss something else? If so, we may need a new venue.
Frere Jacques:
Stop your damned bleating about "hurting people." You do not have the moral authority to lecture anybody here about that, or about anything. You and your sanctimonious ilk not only deign to tell others that, e.g., embryonic stem cell research is prohibited, but you make a point of electing politicians who dance to your tune, and enact laws to that effect. You would deny any possibility of the benefits of such research not only to members of your own cult, but to all of us, regardless of whether we share your beliefs. If you consider PZ's behavior, which harmed nothing but (possibly) a cracker, to be "hateful and bigoted," how would you describe your cult's actions? Will you say earnest and ineffective prayers for those who may in the future die because of your superstition, and your insistence on imposing it on those of us who do not wish it?
And yet you have the arrogance to call us hateful. Astonishing.
Michael, for all our impotence you seem very afraid of us. As I pointed our our faith has survived despite many attempts by atheists to end it. We will survive you.
My argument was not about "good" or "bad" Catholics, but about people who interfere with Mass by trying to steal Hosts. This does interfere with our religious liberty and they will take legal action. You do NOT have the right to interfere in our worship. If you do you could find yourself arrested and will soon find yourself apologizing in court.
Thank God it's finally done. Now this smug, attention-whore professor can find something else to occupy his time.
"Then how did this whole mess start? By someone doing precisely that. "
The whole mess started by some deranged lunatics physically attacking a curious kid over a cracker.
There is only as much of an implied contract when someone gives you the eucharist as there is when someone at Sam's Club gives you a little plastic cup of ravioli.
They expect you to eat it. But in neither case if you choose not to is it stealing or criminal. However attacking the person who doesn't immediately eat the cracker or the ravioli IS.
You can cry and complain endlessly as you seem wont to do, but it is NOT going to mean anyone is ever going to be arrested for posting a youtube video of their cat eating a host, and it does not mean us mean old atheists will stop pointing to sillyness and saying its silly.
In short - GET USED TO IT, because this is just the beginning.
If he insulted the Scientologists then he really is in trouble. They have no mercy. I would actually feel sorry for PZ if they came after him.
"Michael, for all our impotence you seem very afraid of us. As I pointed our our faith has survived despite many attempts by atheists to end it. We will survive you."
Yeah, because it was the atheists who used to burn people at the stake and torture and kill anyone who was Catholic.
Oh, wait...
I guess what I'm saying is that you're an idiot.
There, now you can feel like a martyr. Enjoy your rock-hard boner.
Damian
In the interest of fairness, both Gates and Buffet are agnostics.
Fr J
I think we all agree that true charity is a good thing. However, frequently religious charity is nothing more than the "carrot" that precedes the "stick" of religious dogma.
"If he insulted the Scientologists then he really is in trouble. They have no mercy. I would actually feel sorry for PZ if they came after him."
He HAS insulted them. You're not that special you know.
Craig, if someone tried to take a Host from my parish I would have them arrested. It isn't Sam's Club, it is a Church. You don't have the right to interfere with our worship. SO GET USED TO IT or go to jail. Either works for me.
JefferyD - Just wait till Rev. BigDumbChimp swings through with his homemade bacon and Blue cheese grits! Later in the season I'll be makin ta-mater gravy. Mmmm-mmm!
Good night sweetheart!
We wouldn't want the shriveled up old cow, who took stolen money to build convents for her own self-aggrandisement and pretended that it had been used to help the poor and the sick. A truly sickening fraud, as far from motherhood as a woman might get. Much to my own chagrin, it appears we must accept that the hypocritical old bitch is one of us: according to her own diaries, she stopped believing in God many, many years ago.
Later in the season I'll be makin ta-mater gravy. M
My first window tomato is turning red. Soon I'll have bunches, along with bunches of fresh basil (also grown in the window). Lunch much of this August is going to be awesome.
"Craig, if someone tried to take a Host from my parish I would have them arrested"
No, you'll TRY to have them arrested.
I know you like to believe in lots of silly, nonsensical things, but try to stick with the more supernatural, ok?
Nazi biological sciences - which included experimentation on live subjects - that forms the basis of much of the medical technology we enjoy today. Hitler had no contempt for rationality - it formed the backbone of his ideology. - Baba
Two barefaced lies in two sentences! Nice going.
Nazi "experiments" contributed practically nothing in the way of knowledge; the only possible exceptions are areas such as what happens to people when you freeze them to death. Even in such cases, it is scientifically as well as morally wrong to make use of the data, as no morally acceptable way of checking the findings is possible.
Hitler's propaganda film was called "Triumph of the Will", not "Triumph of Rationality". "I go the way Providence dictates with the assurance of a sleepwalker." is one of his best-known sayings.
Ron, I have helped plenty of people who are not Catholic or religious at all. I have even helped Jehovah's Witnesses and you know how they feel about the Catholic Church. We help anyone, even atheists, without demanding their conversion.
Fr. J,
you can't read.
What this encyclical is saying is :
"the Church only asks that the believer and the "other" enter into a dialogue ..."
Who is the Pope speaking to ? Catholics
If Catholics don't even try to enter into a dialogue instead of reacting with coercion, why should the "other" try to enter into a dialogue ?
If that Catholic lady had tried to enter into a dialogue with Webster Cook instead of twisting his arm, maybe we would have never heard of this story.
If a Catholic official had tried to enter into a dialogue with PZ after his "Fraking cracker" post which was a reaction to the Webster Cook affair, instead of having Bill Donohue sending his pathetic press releases, this would have also impressed many of us. But instead...
But all of this would probably have been too much to ask.
Yeah, thank god this is finally over. Now maybe you self-righteous martyrs can go back to doing what you normally do, trying to deny me my rights because I don't fuck who your sky-daddy says I should.
No, J
This all started when a church member attempted to assault the young man in possession of the cracker. The church then made the point of taking a private matter into the public sphere and tried to dictate that everyone must treat their symbols with the respect that they do.
We disagree.
Furthermore, an implied contract is weak stuff indeed. And it is in fact currently my right to enter your church, say your rites and pocket a cracker. And it will be until your implied contract becomes concrete and agreed upon in catholic dogma. Much less provable that one is a catholic in good standing or that such action actually interferes with anything any more than someone coughing or a crying baby does.
Actually, cracker pocketing would appear to disturb services much less.
So it remains, your service is not changed in the least by actions you are not aware of.
You can't desecrate a cracker, thats the entire point it's just a cracker no matter what else you may irratioanllythink.
You mean the atheist who say you have no evidence, no case, and no clothes? It seems to this reader your posts have been generally attacking, lacking in honesty and integrity, and generally ill informed.
The first part is correct the cracker is given to you. given implies transfer of ownership. It's not borrowed.
Your sect is slowly dying except in Africa where it competes with native religions in a superstitious free for all. In America and Europe between Protestantism(generally more rational) and secularism the dinosaur is going extinct.
@604 Well, correct me if I am wrong but the point being made was if you GIVE the Eucharist to someone and they decide not to eat it you can't charge them with anything. I mean if someone breaks into your church and steals them you might have a case.
"Craig, if someone tried to take a Host from my parish I would have them arrested. It isn't Sam's Club, it is a Church. You don't have the right to interfere with our worship. SO GET USED TO IT or go to jail. Either works for me."
If you really are a priest, then you're pretty dim if you don't know that many of your blessed crackers have been taken.
I don't have to get used to it, cause I'm not stupid enough to go into a church. Someone might see me.
But if you're really concerned that there's going to be a rash of people crashing your party, you're a fool.
And if the occasional curious person pockets a wafer, you'll never know.
That's reality. The reality is, probably millions of consecrated wafers have found their way into pockets and wastebaskets, and that will continue. Face reality.
#604: "if someone tried to take a Host from my parish I would have them arrested."
Posted by: Fr. J
Wow, what a fucking asshole.
Here is another analogy that will illustrate the point nicely.
Suppose your are an embalmer. You are busy embalming a person for an open coffin ceremony and you decide to pilfer there lush locks of blonde hair for the construction of high class wigs (a business you have going on the side).
This person happens to be a Sikh. In order to hide the fact you have stolen their hair you then purchase a cheap synthetic wig and replace it. In the small print of the contract (which the distraught family don't read carefully enough) you make mention of this.
After the event you then decide to publicize this gleefully on a blog. No physical harm has been done to either person and yet I would argue that this is equivalent to PZ Myer's theft and subsequent desecration of the Eucharist publicized on his blog (of which extra web traffic generates money).
Emmet, I worked with the MC's for a year. At a hospice for homeless dying AID's patients. They did work that no one else would do with people who had been abandoned by everyone. In my time there I saw no homosexuals come in to change diapers. They shunned these men. Nor did I meet a single atheist who came to help. The Sister's accepted anyones help who wanted to volunteer. No one forced religion on the men. Each was well treated and died with dignity. The Sisters made sure that they got a decent burial. The Sisters lived very simple lives. Conditions that you would never accept. They were loving and kind to everyone.
The reason you hate Mother Teresa is that you feel GUILTY that we do work that you will not, so you must denigrate it or emulate it. You certainly don't emulate it. Mother Teresa did believe in God, but at a level so far beyond your stunted comprehension that you simply can't understand it. It's like trying to explain biology to an amoeba.
I highly enjoy how before the desecration, the offended said "Oh noes! You are offending us!" and now, after the desecration, the offended are saying "Ha HA, you tried to offend us but our faith is STRONGER now." Look, you're just reacting to something you disagree with and changing your position because your fist-shaking had no influence on PZ's opinion or his professional position.
Besides, the point was never to offend you people. The point was to defend the actions of this UCF student. Offense was just a gleeful side-effect, as the degree of offense just exascerbates the pointlessness of the offense taken, as it is (hopefully you have surmised) just a cracker TO US. The idea that an object can be ritualistically sacred to a group of people while meaningless to another group is something some people cannot come to accept, but legal acceptance of this disagreement is something you have to deal with in a free country. Regulate your own distribution of the sacred crackers and you won't have this problem.
To those who may respond, "Yeah, it's a free country -- so we should have the freedom to distribute the Host and not be violated!", you might consider that religious entities are private operators in this country -- who get federal funding, like many businesses. That's because we've decided religious entities contribute in a disproportionate way to helping the poor and furthering certain social justice programs. And I don't, in principle, have a problem with that. But when considering the distribution of an object NOT LEGALLY SANCTIONED as sacred, that's on you. Not on the unbeliever. PZ wanted to show solidarity with that view (not to put words in his mouth. It's my interpretation).
Am I hallucinating or did Fr. J just totally Godwin himself to death here?
On an alternate train of thought, did he just compare the Blessed Flesh of his Lord and Savior and So Forth to the symbol of one of the most universally reviled belief systems of all time?
In either case, I think our work here is done.
"Here is another analogy that will illustrate the point nicely."
You're a really weird person.
After reading, I don't know, probably thousands of comments by catholic apologists over the last few days on all the cracker threads, I am reminded of how deeply ashamed I am that I ever believed in that shit.
if someone tried to take a Host from my parish I would have them arrested.
I believe small claims court would have jurisdiction over this. It's a cracker, worth what? A nickel? I'm being generous. Here's a quarter. Go buy a gumball and we'll call it even.
Wow Pete, you really are far gone.
You keep trying to interject ACTUAL body parts of loved ones into the scenario.
YOUR CRACKER CONTAINS NO HUMAN BODY PARTS.
You want a perfect analogy? Ok here's a perfect analogy.
Suppose you think A CRACKER IS GOD...
Patricia and all interested; Just got a e-mail from the Dawkins site of "The Voices of Science", Richard is interviewing PZ. Just paused it to pass it along.
The reason you hate Mother Teresa is that you feel GUILTY that we do work that you will not, so you must denigrate it or emulate it. You certainly don't emulate it. Mother Teresa did believe in God, but at a level so far beyond your stunted comprehension that you simply can't understand it. It's like trying to explain biology to an amoeba.
blah blah blah blah blah
So FrJ, you must consume the wafer in the church? Then why do your shamans take them out of the church? How do they know, when they visit someone incapacitated, that they are a True Catholic? For that matter, how would you know that anyone took away a cracker? It wouldn't even take decent prestidigitation to sneak one past the Ninja Nuns. How would you even know, so that you could get appropriately steamed?
As has been pointed out numerous times, this isn't about hate, it's about the demand that your beliefs be respected outside your community. Can you understand that, or should I type slower? The demonstration is that the cracker cannot be desecrated, as "sacred" is only a belief in what passes for your mind. There will be no supernatural retributions, because there is no supernatural. No gods, no masters.
Oh, and pray off.
""Here is another analogy that will illustrate the point nicely."
A cracker is nothing compared to an actual human being!
You seem full of blind assertions.
You have yet to state, in line with legal precedent, how any such actions are anything near what you describe them to be.
You are full of bravado J, and empty of substance.
I would bet that you are also full of hypocracy. Do you picket meat isles in solidarity with the sacred animal of the Hindu? Or do you enjoy a steak? I would bet that in this instance you would be right in line with us in showing no absurd respect for a silly symbol. And soon again you will return to the meat isle in full awareness of your blasphemy, and in great "Doublethink" tradition, you will not connect it to the sad indignation over your crackers.
Such is the life of the religious.
I've read many post on here. Most is about whether or not God even exist. When people say they believe the atheist respond "prove it" knowing full well Gods existence cannot be proven. Sure many will point you to miracles and the atheist will slumber around to find any way to disprove it. Even though, in the medical field there are plenty of Doctors that have used the term miracle when a person was healed or some other phenomenon has taken place. There have even been some Doctors who have become Priest after witnessing unexplained healing. You all want facts! So let's talk facts. Many here are pro-abortion covered by the term pro-choice. Yet when we ask you to prove it's not a baby- you can't. Then you say that it is the womans right. The baby has a right. What about his or her rights? You want to put laws into effect that protect an endangered turtle egg, but when it comes to a fertilized egg of a woman, now that one can be killed. Let's face the facts about the pill. It aborts the egg when the egg becomes fertilized. Says it right there on the box (go check it girls). When we speak of facts, like Natural Family Planning has below a .5% divorce rate compared to the normal over 55% then we are somehow trying to deceive you. It couldn't be that there might be a little something more to it. Yes, there are people who believe in Christ and God, there always have been and there always will be. Issac Newton, Galileo, George Washington and Abraham Lincoln to name a few. All of which none of you are in the company of. Instead you follow some washed-up academic at a third-tier school who takes out his bitterness on Christians and calls it "science blogging". So now let someone prove to me that abortion is not the killing of a baby so that the father, mother or both can go on uninterrupted with their lives. Prove it to me! You hate Christians because you think we are trying to tell you how to live. We don't care how you live, but don't make laws where you can kill people. We don't care how you live, but we do care that a baby should get to have a choice and since it can't speak, we do it for them. And you hate us for it. We just don't think it should be covered up by pretty little names like pro-choice or the pill. Say it for what it is, we want to kill it so we can do and act the way we want. You say that we are wasting our lives with this silly little concept of God. How am I wasting my life? I take an hour at church a week, I pray, I take my kids to a place where they are being taught to treat others as they would like to be treated. Like these values are so terrible. From what I've read you people should have been taken there. I'm sure that someone here will bring up the child molesting, so let me beat you to it. It's awful- do you think that we as catholics condone it? this problem is on the rise all over America. I don't know why some people let it go, but I don't think that's your complaint. After all, you won't be there. Enjoy living with all this hate- read all these post. Filled with hate! Fact is- if you are right and there is no God you and I will have nothing to worry about, but if I'm right- you're screwed and you know it. One more thing, I'm sure one of you will say that I'm saying you are going to hell or that I'm threatening you with hell. I'm not God, I don't know who is going or who isn't, but if you can't see that this whole thing isn't about hate and angering people- your idiots. Hope it all works out for you : )
I still don't see how not eating a cracker (that was freely given) is a "hate crime" that infringes on someone else's freedom of religion. This has become the theater of the absurd!
About the threats, this must be the view Miki has in regards of them.
Sideshow Bob: Well, you see Birch, I'm presently incarcerated. Convicted of a crime I didn't even commit! Huh! 'Attempted murder' Now honestly what is that? Do they give out a Nobel prize for attempted chemistry?
Also few insights of religions from the book of Homer, prophet of Duff
Homer: Well, I may not know much about God, but I have to say we built a pretty nice cage for Him.
Homer: Is it true you priest guys can't ever... you know? Father Sean: I'll admit the vow of celibacy is one of our sterner challenges. Homer: Celibacy I was talking about the meat on Friday thing. Man you guys got more crazy rules than Blockbuster Video.
Homer: I wiped a booger on your shirt, I made a dog and a cat kiss, I swiped a bolted down tv from a holiday inn, I coveted the wife in Jaws 2, I lied to a waiter, I masturbated 8 billion times and I have no plans to stop masturbating in the future. Woohoo I'm clean! In your face lord!
some sanity into insanity :)
Thus spake SDG:
No. In total isolation from earlier events, they would have been out-of-line, but in context, no, I think what he originally said was perfectly OK: the intention was to protest fatwa against Webster Cook issued by Bill Donahue and the subsequent threats of violence and death. In that context, a hyperbolic "If you think that's desecration, I'll show you desecration!" was, in my opinion, a noble defense of a maligned kid.
No, not particularly. I was merely pointing out that it's hypocritical to expect people to respect your superstitions while you're busy ramming them down our throats (e.g. abortion, stem-cell research, divorce, contraception, sex-education, gay marriage), or to treat your moral pontification with anything other than contempt as long as you protect child-rapists.
Clear enough?
Emmet, I worked with the MC's for a year. At a hospice for homeless dying AID's patients. - Fr. J
And yet somehow you never learned it's written "AIDS patients"? how odd.
Fact is- if you are right and there is no God you and I will have nothing to worry about, but if I'm right- you're screwed and you know it.
Thot. ur doin it rong.
#575 - Akshelby - You can make a complaint against Pete Rooke for his 3rd paragraph misogynist and sexist, sick comments regarding 'rape and sexual abuse permissible' as I did against Fr. J. Many of us are stunned by Pete Rookes' sick opinions.
Don't let him drive you away Akshelby! He's just another of the typical patriarchal christian perverts.
@618 So, to go with your mini-skirt you are now getting a wig?
Good try with the analogies but that would be like me telling you "Eating beef is like PZ Myers desecrating a Eucharist". Would you stop eating beef because someone else thinks cows are sacred? I highly doubt it. I think you and other like donahue are using this to try to drum up some fire. Really, this all could have just died here on this blog and no one really would have known.
*sigh* I started reading again.
I still think you are really a very sick man Pete Rooke. Books made out of human skin, young women in mini-skirts being raped, now corpses. Maybe you should stay away from all the violence in the Bible. Your mind might be healthier.
I'm supposed to be going out to dinner soon but I may have lost my appetite because of your analogies.
And, Fr. J., atheists don't feel the need to tell everyone they are atheists. Nor do homosexuals. In fact, we tend not to advertise it because we don't want the likes of you to kill us.
Ben in #594 wrote: ... and Two tickets to a 1996 Green Bay Packers playoff game ... a glorious Viking funeral.
Looks like PZ's son will have to find a new school to go to. What with the Favre kerfuffle and the Vikings involved, a forgivable offense in other times might be just too much for us Cheeseheads to bear. The University of Southern North Dakota at Hoople might make room for him.
Dave, what the hell does your anti-choice rant have to do with the price of tea in China? Saying "abortion is bad" does not prove that God exists.
I've just realized that there might be the implied contract that when I buy a bible I must use it for reading and devotion, and not to even out my dinner table legs. I suppose I could be sent to jail for that as well, seeing as the legal ramifications for such breaches of implied contracts are so clear and severe.
Where is "subliminal guy" when you need him?
" ...You hate Christians because you think we are trying to tell you how to live.(Academic Freedumb) We don't care how you live, but don't make laws where you can kill people...(death penalty)..."
#526: From article at Helium.com:
The Heinkel He 178 was an ugly little machine but what made it unique was that it was the first aircraft to fly by means of jet propulsion. The He 178 was little more than a test bed for Heinkel's new jet engine but the success of that flight heralded the beginning of the modern age of aviation.
The Nazi leadership showed little interest in the flight - preoccupied as it was with the war - but the Heinkel engineers pressed on with their developments and in 1941 they produced the first purpose built jet powered combat aircraft: the He 280. The Heinkel Company was excited by the He 280 - its speed exceeded 500mph - but again the short sighted Nazi leadership was cool, even indifferent, and the project came to nothing. Only eight He 280's were built.
That there were forward thinking German engineers working at the time clearly doesn't mean the Nazis were giving them enthusiastic help or support. The Nazis were certainly behind the V1 and V2 projects more actively, but even those weren't as impressive as they could have been. Only about a quarter of the V1's fired at England hit their targets. Most were easily shot out of the sky by antiaircraft guns.
So, for all their scientific advances, which were solely geared towards support of the war effort, they still didn't win the war. Maybe that's less a sign of their scientific prowess than of the hazards of trying to run a totalitarian state from a platform of irrational ideologies influenced by mystics and cranks.
But anyway, they still weren't atheists, either. Duh.
We can't prove God- Just like you can't prove an abortion isn't killing. That's what
"I'm sure that someone here will bring up the child molesting, so let me beat you to it. It's awful- do you think that we as catholics condone it?"
Yes. Absolutely. The official policy of the church, written by the Pope himself, is to hide and protect child molesters from prosecution, including placing them back in places where they can continue to abuse.
The Catholic church condones it. The POPE protects it.
You may not personally condone it. How sad for you that you don't have the ethics to break your devotion to the organization that does.
Fr J
I'm a non-believer; however, I'm also the husband of a Vietnam refugee who was greatly helped by the Catholic church. They helped her without ever trying to convert her to Catholicism. I never intended to demean any acts of charity by you.
I'll still stand by my point, a large amount of Christian charity is not in fact truly charitable. It's what I'd call quid pro quo.
Show me exactly what you said- The official policy of the church, written by the Pope himself, is to hide and protect child molesters from prosecution, including placing them back in places where they can continue to abuse. I want to see that "official policy" show it to me
#592 ans FR. J
Here is a 'short' list of secular charities.
http://techskeptic.blogspot.com/2007/12/atheist-charities.html
Fr. J. you continue to be typical of religious fanatics. You spout off nonsense claims without supporting them.
I know you do this because you have no training in critical thinking. You read an old book and presume its true. Even though the oldest copies of that same book are entirely different than what you read.
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/07/22/oldest-bible-online.html
If we have thousands of atheists deciding to come to our churches and desecrating the Hosts then we have to figure out what to do. Do we limit access? Do we ask for ID's? Do we only give Holy Communion to those we know personally etc.?
See what happens?
Posted by: Fr. J | July 23, 2008 7:36 PM
Oh wow... and the next thing you know priests will fucking kids in the ass and the church will protect them.
But I do like the ID idea. They can be signed by God so you know who is really a true Catholic. But does he also sign Mormon and Baptist IDs? Maybe the Mormons can carry around gold tablets and the Jews stone ones... but then what is left for the Catholics? Wait.. I got it... a signed cracker from Jesus. I means it the least he can do for you protecting his reconstituted flesh and all...
For all Catholics who claim to be upset about the child rapes and the decision of the Curia to protect the rapists and their bishops, the Anglican (Episcopal) church will accept you without any change in doctrine at all from what you were taught in the RCC, save the primacy of Rome. They also accept people who teach other doctrines, so you may have to adjust to that. If you stay with Rome, you are publicly announcing your approval of what the Pope has done. Ignore what he says, his words are betrayed by his deeds.
Fr J
that Lady who twisted Webster Cook's arm did not try to enter into a dialogue instead, that was an act of coercion. This is against the doctrine of the Catholic Church according to this Encyclical Redemptoris Missio (see post #554).
So, I have only one question : as a Catholic, and as a priest (apparently?) do you condemn what she did ?
Yes or No ?
Pardon....had to break for supper.
...The illustrious Father J. wrote: "When will you learn that persecution only makes us stronger? We have already won. Pax"
WOOHOO, Father!
Hehehe....I love priests....
Daniel in the lion's den @ 578 Spit in whose face? There is no imaginary god to spit into it's face. How the hell can you spit at something that doesn't exist? Oh, you mean the wind! Funny, I have a much more fulfilling life without your ghost god, a life free of all insanities and not wasted on religious morons, except to make them look like the irrational cretins they are. I turn to nothing that is demented, least of all an imaginary god that exists only in your vile cesspit of a brain. You are a loser along with your spittle god.
I don't hate "Mother" Teresa, I merely recognise her for what she was according to books (try "The Missionary Position" for size), TV documentaries (countless), and experiences of family friends who actually knew her (and say she was an unbelievably self-important, arrogant, selfish cow), not some puffed-up creation of the Vatican marketing machine.
Read the published extracts from her diaries. She lost her faith decades ago.
Dave,
it doesnt matter if its an official policy or not. Are you denying that pedophile preists were moved and protected (i.e. the new parish was not told of the previous issues)? Do we really have to pull out story after story about this. THe pope himself admitted it (and then seems to think that praying for the vistims is enough to make it right)
The problem with the priests wasn't just that they did these horrible things to kids. Its that they were not and are not in jail. When this happens in any other field (teachers). The offender is whisked off to jail pretty quickly.
You... are... a... MORON!
Seriously. Even the most steadfast, god-polluted retard would have given up long before now. But, you just keep droning on, oblivious and clueless, and you haven't the foggiest notion what you are talking about.
It would be funny if you weren't such a disturbingly sick freak.
Get help, pal. You are clearly obsessed and unhinged.
#281
Nick wrote, "But the legitimate protest I've heard from Catholics and others is that it's not HIS fracking cracker. They don't really give them away. They keep track of them down to the crumbs to make sure the crackers get what they consider proper treatment."
At what point do they "stop" tracking the cracker? After the large intestine?
Holy Flaming Crap, Batman!
The liars for Jebus are out in force tonight!
Fr. J... you're despicable. There is no possible way that you are actually a priest. Priests are better educated. Wrong in their thinking, but better educated.
Sandi... grow up, sweetie. Get a grip on reality.
This started because a CATHOLIC student wanted to show his friend the cracker in the church. Other CATHOLICS decided that they needed to physically try to wrest the cracker from him. This escalated into death threats and calls for his expulsion.
You people make me sick. Liars for Jebus, go home.
To sum:
I believe all of these points are essentially accurate:
> That we should be intolerant of people who believe in God
Specifically... arguing against a Catholic's stance on abortion or birth control as a matter of public policy is completely justifiable; public policy should not be based entirely upon dogma. However, a communion wafer is not a matter of public policy. PZ was way out of line here.
For an example with no immediate religious significance, I quote E.B. Sledge, from With The Old Breed: "Once on another patrol, I saw him taking great pains and effort to position himself and his carbine near a Japanese corpse. After getting to just the right angle, Mac took careful aim and squeezed off a couple of rounds. The dead Japanese lay on his back with his trousers pulled down to his knees. Mac was trying very carefully to blast off the head of the corpse's penis."
A corpse, scientifically, is just a pile of meat. Shooting up a corpse instead of rocks as target practice, scientifically, is morally neutral, no? Then why is this description repugnant? Because treating something that people generally regard as having some inherent worth or gravity with deliberate disrespect means you're acting like an ass. Someone who is a premier advocate for the science community on the blogosphere shouldn't be acting like an ass. Pissing off people for no practical reason is the response of a 12 year old.
> That we should intentionally insult Catholics and
> feign surprise when they get angry about it
I cannot possibly believe that PZ did not know exactly what sort of response he would get. If he was truly surprised, he's several orders of magnitude stupider than I imagined. It's not like public desecration of religious images, artifacts, etc., from *various* religions hasn't made the overly devout nutbags come out of the woodwork.
> That we should treat other people with disrespect.
This is unfortunately well illustrated on both sides of this stupid affair. Telling someone he's going to suffer eternal damnation for an act that causes no demonstrable harm is monstrously presumptive (particularly for someone who claims to be any sort of Judeo-Christian... remember that whole reservation of judgment to the Allmighty thing) and disgusting.
> That Catholics are no better than Muslims: both
> religions have people willing to advocate violence
> for no civilized reason.
Please edit this statement and remove all religious references. Generally, people are willing to advocate violence for no civilized reason. To tar the religious with this brush ignores the basic ability for humans to be really inhuman to each other. It also ignores and discounts, implicitly, all of the morally positive actions which have at least a partial cause of religious beliefs.
> Catholics, even the non-advocating violence ones,
> seem to think that insulting their religion is
> equivalent to death threats and physical violence.
No. Some do, I'm sure. Not all.
Well, I'm a Catholic and am sorry you did what you did. I don't wish you harm or hatred. I hope you have a wonderful life and eventually see what a great gift the Eucharist is to both Catholics and the whole world. It's NOT a cracker. But I understand your non belief.
I hope you are blessed with grace, repentance and peace so you will one day have the opportunity to make up for this poor example. But don't worry... We all are poor examples at times, so you're not alone!
Blah, blah, blah....
See what happens? Our ability to practice our faith and worship is disrupted. We have to worry about who is at Mass and what they will do.
blah, blah, blah...
When will you learn that persecution only makes us stronger? We have already won. Pax
Posted by: Fr. J | July 23, 2008 7:36 PM
You're still an idiot, Friar. One with a persecution complex to boot. And I can see that you didn't manage to learn a damn thing during my trip to the mall (with four Godiva chocolates for the girls(yum, yum)). Let me break it down in terms of reality, since you can't grasp it:
I have no doubt that, over the hundreds of years of communion, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of crackers, have been walked off the premises. What happens is EXACTLY NOTHING UNLESS YOU MAKE A BIG STINK ABOUT IT. And despite this, no doubt, legion of crackers being walked off the premises the Catholic Church has yet to crumble under the onslaught. Which means your "logic" as droll and banal as it is, misses the key component -- YOU create the problem by your over-reaction.
Not the guy who palms the cracker.
You'd understand that if you weren't trapped at being 8-years old and having to "win" at every game or you'll take your football home. You can create your own problems, including your own persecution, merely through your being "outraged" and "upset" by otherwise innocuous behavior.
Martin, IIRC, the jet engine was actually invented by a Brit named Whipple. Just sayin.
Oh, yeah, "Gott Mit Uns"
JonathanL: "Good try with the analogies but that would be like me telling you "Eating beef is like PZ Myers desecrating a Eucharist". Would you stop eating beef because someone else thinks cows are sacred?"
As discussed elsewhere I am an ethical vegetarian and as such I eat no meat.
Michael, I actually did quote Federal statute and a California law in an earlier post.
The FACE Act was amended to not only cover access to abortion clinics, but also churches. What covers one covers the other.
http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/split/facestat.htm
You can't destroy church property or interfere in the free exercise of religious worship. Taking a Host under false pretenses as I have pointed out does that. It is also intimidating to worshipers if we have people coming in with the express purpose of using our service as a vehicle for protest and desecration. The ACT UP folks discovered this and were arrested. If you don't believe me then you can try it. Don't be surprised if you suddenly hear your Miranda rights being read.
"Ratzinger's role in protecting the church against scandal became apparent four years ago. In May 2001, he sent a confidential letter to every bishop in the Catholic church reminding them of the strict penalties facing those who referred allegations of sexual abuse against priests to outside authorities."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/apr/24/children.childprotection1
Is this the charity that you speak of Fr.J:
But wait! The Catholic Church is there to help those poor Africans that have been advised by, you guessed it, the Catholic Church, not to use condoms:
Good old charity, hey? First, sentence people to death. Then, look after them while they are dying. All in the name of gods love. It brings a tear to my eye.
And you have the nerve to complain about a fucking cracker.
Fr. J.,
You don't have to worry about me, or most of the people who regularly post here, stepping foot into a catholic church to steal a cracker. I (we) might get catholic cooties and all.
But I have several in-laws that are catholic (not uncommon) and some of whom are not on good terms with the church (again, not uncommon) for a number of reasons, which may include: birth control, abortion, stem cell research, over presence in politics, hiding abuse by priests, and maybe actual abuse by priests. Since they know all the rituals, they would have no problem obtaining a cracker and sending it to PZ. If you are so worried about your crackers, why don't you go back and tend to your church. Make sure everything stays internal and does not reach the outside world.
@ #280 Ooparts;
#282 MAJeff, OM;
#286 Leki;
#291 Dave, again;
#308 freelunch;
#309 Gobear;
and probably others, with apologies if I missed your posts:
In my view, the data on pedophilic abuse by do matter, for a number of reasons.
1. The most trivial reason being that apologists for the RCC claim that it's just a few rotten apples, and that pedophilia occurs in other walks of life as well. The latter is hard to dispute, but the former argument is hard to maintain if the rate (ie, instances of abuse per unit of group membership) is at least an order of magnitude higher among Catholic clergy than in any other comparable group. Hence my question to Dave @ #262.
2. Of course, I agree that the systematic cover-up by the RCC hierarchy is an outrage in its own right. But in addition, abuse rates and cover-up may be causally related. If there is an informal understanding that pedophiles in the priesthood are well protected, self-selection into the RCC clergy may keep driving abuse rates. After all, this may have been going on for centuries. There further may be an informal understanding within the hierarchy that enforcing sanctions against priestly pedophiles could be costly, not only short-term because of settlements, but also long-term, due to interference with recruiting.
3. To the extent that rates of pedophilic abuse by clergy exceed population base rates, the sex-related part of the RCC's "business model" may be threatened.
The sub-business model, greatly simplified: Old men up the hierarchy elaborately list all imaginable sexual behaviors in 'geographic' and other detail, catalogue them according to degree of sinfulness, translate into Latin, disseminate to the base, and enshrine them in church law. By far the majority are normal sexual behaviors, which makes pretty much every church member a sinner, with repeat offenses. If you sin, you go to hell --- unless you repent, confess, and get absolved. Such salvation is obtainable only from the one and only, all-encompassing church. If you are afraid of death and what happens to you thereafter, you'd better get your absolution fix regularly, in case something very adverse happens, and the last rites in case of terminal emergency.
If you can be made to believe in the concepts of sin, especially sinful sex; absolution; wafer magic; hell; heaven; etc, then the RCC renders a valuable service to you, which is, of course, not for free. In return, you'll have to support the organization with money and adherence to all the other rules it imposes on you, lest you end up in hell or something. So, the same org that made up the need for salvation provides the means for salvation, and you pay for it in more than one way. Not a bad business model.
Thus, this kind of sex business gives the RCC great power. To the extent that the members of the RCC figure out that what's going on, that power wanes. As the members are confronted with the systemic violation of their organization's own tenets, e.g., an overly large proportion of the preachers practicing what they preach against and abetted by pervasive culture, the members may be more likely to figure out what's going on. The more honest ones, anyway.
That's why I'm interested in any information on rates of clerical & other 'professional' sex abuse.
Whew...
Thanks for listening, if you still do.
WOOHOO, Father!
Hehehe....I love priests....
Posted by: Miki Tracy | July 23, 2008 8:54 PM
And you were probably about eight years old when they started "loving" you.
Micki Tracy:
Saw your blog, you would be perfect for the lead role in"Sister Mary Ignatious Explains It All For You".
Ann Coulter must be your personal hero.
"We have already won."
Um, no. You think a cracker is God. Epic fail. You never even got out of the gate.
Pete Rooke - Are you a celibate? It would explain a lot.
Fr J,
You really don't get it. Atheists don't need to get together to talk about non-existing sky daddies. You'd be surprised at how many non-believers there are in the world helping out others (believers and non) and just don't think their non-belief is relevant to helping out. You don't have to believe in fantasies to do the right thing.
Also, my "guess" is that a great majority of the science based quality of life things (like vaccines, TV, cars, the internet, medicine, etc. You get the idea... I think) is being handled by rational, yes, even skeptical scientists. And a great majority of them believe in no personal god or gods. They do and have done more for the planet than anything you can come up with. When you get cancer (or some other kind of disease) just try praying alone and see what god does for you.
Thus spake ashkelby:
Yes, but can you really be surprised? The guy is a devotee of mythical Levantine zombie, whose death cult has a weekly ritual centred around cannibalism, venerates a corpse nailed to a stick, and keeps an assortment of rotting corpses and body parts around the world (I believe called "first class relics"). I would think that would make you a bit sick.
Your ignorance of the law is noted. Your arrogance is sickening. Your self-righteousness is predictable.
Remember that every single doctrine you teach is completely unsupported by any evidence at all. Every single one, yet you are incomprehensibly arrogant.
Huh?
Just what the fuck are they putting in these Jebus Crackers that makes people so freakin' batty?
I'm beginning to think your precious "host" is nothing more than a big paint chip.
Here is another analogy that will illustrate the point nicely.
Suppose you're a frog, set to be dissected in a biology class at a secular university. You've been issued your standard minijupe, thigh-high boots, and bustier, but they're for the express purpose of being worn in the Darwinian dissection ritual. The night before the big event, though, a buff squid catches your eye, and you want desperately to run away together. There's no time to remove the dissection garments; plus, the boots are stapled to your legs. If you hop off in them, are you stealing? Have you offended the students? Dishonored your species? Disrespected the somber scientific ritual? What if you later post a gloating video of your escape on your frogblog?
People who insult others' religious symbols qualify for the term "sad little cracker" better than the Host does.
What a sad man you are. There are many of us who are praying for you even though you'll probably laugh at this comment. How someone could be so full of hate and contempt for the Catholic faith and what is most dear to us is really incomprehensible to me. Something (or someone) has a hold on you and I will pray for your conversion before you leave this world and stand before the very person you desecrated at your death. May God have mercy on your soul.
"People who insult others' religious symbols qualify for the term "sad little cracker" better than the Host does."
Its not a symbol its the actual flesh of JESUS, you heretic! Oooooooh, you are so going to pay for that when the boss cracker finds out.
Okay, so you do believe that no one should eat beef because Hindus believe cows are sacred? You now will attest to the fact that cows are sacred? Because in your line of thinking one group believing something is holy/sacred means it should be treating as such by everyone else. I guess we need to get informed on the beliefs of every other religion... unless you only believe yours is to be respected?
I don't hate the theists. I just think they're a bit goofy. Some of the theists that have descended on this site are blind, irrational, unthinking, assholes, but I don't hate them.
It's their JOB dumb-ass. And you're still totally ignorant:
In other words, relgious charities tend to take care of flock and FUCK THE HERITICS AND UNBELIEVERS.
You know Friar, I've never seen anyone with such a high opinion of himself and yet be so wrong and emo about everything. You're 8-years-old in a man's body.
PZ: you wouldn't go over to India and slaughter cows in front of committed Hindus just to prove that cows aren't sacred to you, would you? I suspect not. Why? Because deep down you have some level of tolerance for people who differ from you. If they're not bothering you, why should you mess with them? If you have something against catholics, then why not take it up with the particular people who bug you? Why needlessly cause enormous emotional damage to thousands, including my 70yr catholic grandmother who, as far as I know, has never done anything to harm you? Values differ from culture to culture. People believe things that, from your perspective, seem ludicrous. Fine. I could see why you'd get mad if their beliefs affected you. But otherwise, why be such an irrational, narrow-minded, intolerant bigot?
Patricia @ #? Thanks for the encouragement to get past the perversity of some the catholic wierdos.
Fr. J and Pete Rooke (except for his recent disturbing fantasies) are all starting to read like MAJeff's blah blah blah blah stuff. I start reading their accusations and my mind doesn't even register much of what they are saying. My head spins trying to figure out what they are trying to say.
Maybe it's Satan inside me keeping me from seeing the truth of their words. (that's why my head is spinning)
Or maybe it's just because it is a bunch of magical mumbo jumbo that should have fizzled out over a thousand years ago.
Emmet, try St. John of the Cross's Dark Night of the Soul.
negen, she did exactly the right thing. Someone tried to steal the Eucharist and she tried to stop them. I would give her a medal. He should be in jail for disrupting Mass. No one has the right to do that and she had the right to try and stop his crime.
Lance, as I have pointed out before I have 3, yes count them, 3 degrees. I am very well educated. Maybe your own lack of education makes it difficult to understand me. I am despicable because...? I object to sacrilege? Defend the free exercise of religion? Don't agree with you? I think you have plenty of other targets for the word "despicable" on this thread.
Actually Mr. Cook being a Catholic would have incurred a latae sententiae excommunication if he knew it was a delict with the sanction attached. This is what the Code of Canon Law says:
Can. 1367 A person who throws away the consecrated species or takes or retains them for a sacrilegious purpose incurs a latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See; moreover, a cleric can be punished with another penalty, not excluding dismissal from the clerical state.
I don't know if he knew of the penalty or not. Someone should ask him. Also the excommunication could be imposed by a Administrative or Judicial procedure. It is reserved to the Holy See, therefore he would have to petition the Pope for the penalty to be lifted. If I were in his diocese I would already have begun the Judicial process.
Karla,
May Satan knit you a sweater and Gnesh bake you a cake.
#663: A quick round of Googling tells me the guy's name was Frank Whittle, and he is credited with independently inventing the jet engine right around the same time as a German, Hans von Ohain, was doing it too. So the jet engine was invented more or less the same way the radio was, by a couple of guys miles apart. Great minds and all that.
#626 - Holbach - Wow! Thanks for the breaking news. I'll look forward to that.
Have you noticed the catholic's are scared shitless to answer your questions, or mine about their gawd?
Yet they want to martyr MAJeff with a globalkill file for blah, blah, blah. You must be one big scary Bulldog of an atheist. So... *grin*... I'm gonna change my tactic.
THERE IS NO GAWD blah blah blah
SHOW ME YOUR GAWD blah blah blah
I DENY THE Holy SPIRIT blah blah blah
Oops, supper time - gotta cook and eat PIG, blah blah blah
Fr. J, I will desecrate 10 communion wafers per hour for the next 24, in a manner so vile that it'll make anything PZ did pale in comparison. In return, I expect that you'll offer up the standard Holy Hour of Reparation for each violated cracker, for a total of 240 hours of solemn prayer on your part.
Now run along, and I don't want to hear from you for at least 10 days.
Dave,
it doesnt matter if its an official policy or not. Are you denying that pedophile preists were moved and protected (i.e. the new parish was not told of the previous issues)? Do we really have to pull out story after story about this. THe pope himself admitted it (and then seems to think that praying for the vistims is enough to make it right)
The problem with the priests wasn't just that they did these horrible things to kids. Its that they were not and are not in jail. When this happens in any other field (teachers). The offender is whisked off to jail pretty quickly.
You said it was policy-that's what you said
It's not right and not all catholics priest and lay people are ashamed of it. Nothing can make it right. There are some facts that you probably are not aware of though. First, this has been a problem in the American Catholic parishes, but the rest of the world. Second, percentages are the same in the field of teaching, physicians and all occupations. Three, Priest are not professionally "good" people. There are some bad priest.
SC@678 Nice try, but I'm afraid you haven't quite caught the stomach-churning combination of prurience and ghoulishness that marks Pete Rooke's genius!
Micki is a twisted little NeoCon in a nun's habit. Is she Opus Dei? Hmmmm.
Actually, I don't care. She lost any and all credibility with me. She's not stupid, but she's very deluded. She and Fr. J. can go fuck each other. Oops, NOT fuck each other.
Yeah, do not hate the theist, hate the theology!
Peter Rooke with his preoccupation with rape and dead bodies is one sick, perverted dude.
Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to be psychotic. More like just a stone cold psycopath. Chances are he has a cemetery someplace with his collection of random killings or a freezer full of human body parts. Dollars to donuts there are a lot of unsolved murders and missing people in his neighborhood. Something that normal people can't even really imagine.
There are 75 million US Catholics. There are 4 or 5 very marginal personalities on this thread making comments ranging from the inane to the stupid to the frankly incredibly bizarre and perverted.
I doubt if half of these are even Catholics. Just the internet equivalent of the shopping cart people downtown. Doesn't look like hardly anyone really cares about PZ and his crackers.
It's not right and not all catholics priest and lay people are ashamed of it. Nothing can make it right.
Sorry-I meant all Good priest and lay people ARE ashamed of it
RCC (679)
"People who insult others' religious sybols...."
Please give us a cogent explanation of how one might insult a symbol.
she did exactly the right thing. Someone tried to steal the Eucharist and she tried to stop them. I would give her a medal. He should be in jail for disrupting Mass. No one has the right to do that and she had the right to try and stop his crime.
Fr. J,
There is no question about it. You are a world-class fucking asshole. Your kind should be thrown off the planet. Go fuck yourself shithead.
Correct. Both of those are illegal in most jurisdictions.
No it fucking doesn't. Not eating a cracker can, under no circumstances, be regarded either as a) destroying church property, or b) interfering in the free exercise of religious worship.
Doing something "under false pretenses" can be regarded as significant in a fraud case, for example, but not in a matter of property damage or disruption. That's why we don't have "vandalism under false pretenses" or "rioting under false pretenses": it's just fucking stupid and you should stop saying it.
What part of that can't you understand? For someone with an IQ of 142 you are a) awfully thick and b) awfully bad at punctuation.
Call me crazy, but I'm beginning to think that Fr. J is getting paid to be here.
Soy foods 'reduce sperm numbers
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7519459.stm
I guess this means Catholics have to stop eating soy products.
I wonder if any communion wafers are made with soy?
Sperm Killers for Jesus.
Emmet Caulfield @#634:
Clear enough?
No.
Since you ignore the distinction I made between the senses that I did, and did not, propose and ask for (mutual) respect, your comments don't amount to a meaningful response to what I said.
All you've done is abuse the Church on those areas where you perceive her to be vulnerable, and while each of the topics you raise may be valid subjects in their own right, as I said we can't discuss everything at once.
Anyway, charges of hypocrisy are one thing, and whether people should treat one another with respect is another. You are free to charge the Catholic Church with hypocrisy, and each charge may involve a legitimate discussion. But if you use the charges to demonize Catholics and so short-circuit pleas for ordinary human respect and common courtesy, yours is the humanity that suffers.
I'm sure there are some who will be happy to live with that. I'm writing for those that might not be.
"You said it was policy-that's what you said"
okay, okay, so it wasn't policy, it was just a memo penned by high authorities stating that unless followed would result in severe penalties for those exposing the pedophile priests.
But not policy. Just a strongly worded memo from the boss with strict penalties for non-compliance.
#687: He should be in jail for disrupting Mass.
Maybe someday you'll get to found your own little totalitarian theocracy and you can do that kind of thing to people, J, as part of bringing back the auto da fé. Until then, just show them the door, unless you think you can make a case for something that's a real offense, like trespassing or disorderly conduct. From what I can tell, all Mr. Cook tried to do was leave the premises with the cracker, which hardly sounds like disorderly conduct to me. If the woman in question actually did twist his arm, sounds like Cook has a case against her for assault.
Good grief, another explosion happened while I was asleep.
I see we've got some fun new trolls with some weird twists on the old arguments.
They've said (basically) this:
'________ was an atheist; therefore, the cracker is Jesus and you're all bigots! Rationality is nasty and bad! Love!1! I'll pray for you!1!
Pete Rooke's a problem - his sickening rape and grisly necrophilia fantasies are disturbing even me, and I've got a box full of well-thumbed Richard Laymon novels and American Psycho.
Then there's our recent addition, the 'disingenuous turd', Fr. J, back to exercise some more futility. Are you going to bring up your pointless story about Louis Pasteur again, Fr. J? It was so effective last time.
Now I've caught up I'll ask the same question I've asked a few times over the posts:
If this is such a big deal for catholics why hasn't the pope (who I'm to understand is your spiritual leader) said anything about it?
Is it because he can spot a losing battle when he sees one?
So, PZ! How'd you like the movie. I thought it was awesome! Just kind of weird who died and who lived, isn't it? I mean, considering real life and all.
I don't know if there really is a super-human
cracker-loving entity or not, all I know is I
am more comfortable with Pharyngulites than
with someone who expresses him/her/itself like
Miki Tracy (#257 et al.). Ngggggnggaargghhh!
...I'm writing for those that might not be.
Posted by: SDG | July 23, 2008 9:19 PM
Can you say "Messiah Complex?"
What's all this talk of atheists being an entity? "their mother theresa, "their charities" blargh blargh blargh...
Since when are atheists any sort of organized entity? Stop with the 'their' nonsense.
Charity...hmmm...aside from some donations to MPR and giving a few guys on the stree some loose change I guess I am an asshole.
I do pay my taxes though and the government uses some of that money to help churches brainwash children, that's close right?
Yes, I can sleep at night knowing that I'm not a great philanthropist. Does that have anything to do with my lack of fairytale worship? Nope, it doesn't even register.
Before some idjit comes back with that "if i had morals BS"...I know plenty of religious folks that are far wealthier then myself whom don't give to charity and I know atheists whom volunteer and give plenty as well.
As for organizations? The great organized atheist charity project is a failure, DAMN! I knew those bioengineered-soup kitchens were a bad idea. I guess we'll all have to go back to researching medicine, educating people and developing new technology so you can keep up with your comfortably blind little life.
Is trollfest over yet?
Something (or someone) has a hold on you and I will pray for your conversion before you leave this world and stand before the very person you desecrated at your death. May God have mercy on your soul. Karla
And Karla sets a new mark to aim for in our grand Say "Fuck you" in as many words as possible contest!
okay, okay, so it wasn't policy, it was just a memo penned by high authorities stating that unless followed would result in severe penalties for those exposing the pedophile priests.
show me where it says that?
severe penalties for THOSE EXPOSING the pedophile priest.
It doesn't say that either
@Wowbagger and raven (as mentioned previously a bird that is connected to various occult practices)
You don't appear to have examined my analogies sufficiently because you have completely misinterpreted their meanings. I suppose that was intentional though.
Am I the only one who gets mental images of very undesirable flavors of Dolly Madison brand snack cakes when he hears the word Ratzinger?
" Second, percentages are the same in the field of teaching, physicians and all occupations. "
Interesting. You're not the first Catholic to come here and say this almost verbatim.
Is this something Catholics repeat to themselves to make themselves feel better? It sure sounds like it. Do you get pamphlets or something? Probably titled "We're not SO bad. Look at what other people do!"
Miki @350:
"Actually, Christ was using hyperbiole (as evidenced by the context of the passage) when He said, "Do not say 'Raca' to your brother."
Ah, yes. "Christ didn't MEAN that part." If I had a nickel for every supposed Christian who uses that rationale to ignore those commandments he or she finds personally inconvenient, I'd be no more able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven than a camel could pass through the eye of a needle.
If I had an extra nickel for every supposed Christian who claims special knowledge and understanding of the "context"--despite having no knowledge whatsoever of ancient Greek, vulgate Latin, Aramaic, or any of the other languages required for this kind of understanding--I'd buy everyone on the Internet a steak dinner and have change left over.
Sorry, Miki--that rationale holds no water. Whether it was meant literally or figuratively, it CLEARLY was not meant to be interpreted as "It's okay to call people morons as long as you don't like them."
Alas for you, scribes and Pharisees, hyopcrites!
Good job man.
Scenario 1: You've just destroyed a worthless cracker which you yourself believed to be meaningless. Maybe your intellectual pedestal was too high to get enough oxygen up there to realize how petty and meaningless your actions are.
Scenario 2: You desecrated the Body of God.
Is it really worth the wager to make yourself look like an idiot?
Emmet, it isn't a cracker. It is integral to our worship. Do you really think that you could take the Eucharist and stamp on it at a Mass and not get arrested? The Act Up people were arrested for it, so it has already happened. But don't worry, you would have an opportunity to make your defense in court. I see nothing wrong with my punctuation. However, I am writing pretty fast and don't have time to check.
Bob, the logic of your reply is stunning. A true example of atheist reasoning. It is obviously the best you can do.
Good night all.
You're a really weird person...
Okay. The lot of you, you have to stop this right now. If I laugh any harder, I'm afraid I may rupture something.
I have learned through all of this, that atheists are enlightened people. And so kind too!
What's the percentage of global educational organizations, organizations of physicists, etc., that conspired from the highest levels to cover up the sex crimes of their members?
Is it really worth the wager to make yourself look like an idiot?
Posted by: expiatus | July 23, 2008 9:27 PM
Was it really worth posting that comment to prove to us you are an idiot?
Sure he is. He has bugger all to do until Sunday other than sit around godbotting, wanking, and trolling. Sunday is for spouting transparently nonsensical hocus-pocus to gullible fools, but the rest of the time he can annoy the fuck out of us. It's a great job if you don't mind never getting laid and can stomach living in abject hypocrisy and moral turpitude.
Baba @373
"That makes you a masochist."
I'm here reading this nonsense, aren't I? I think anyone participating who claims NOT to have at least a streak of masochism is fibbing.
"People believe things that, from your perspective, seem ludicrous. Fine. I could see why you'd get mad if their beliefs affected you. But otherwise, why be such an irrational, narrow-minded, intolerant bigot?"
Is someone passing out a script? It's the same pseudo-arguments. Over and over.
New people: Please start with last weeks cracker thread. It's already been said, trust me. And we are not responsible for anything your dear grey haired granny does or does not believe. For all we know, she's anti-semitic, racist and a homophobe.
Craig wrote in #127:
"Well anyway, PZ took an actual, real, transubstantiated slice of your all-powerful creater of the universe, and did with it what he would. And your god was defenseless (which you knew because if you didn't, you would have just ignored it and let Jeebus defend himself). Seems to me like your god is a wuss."
To all you Catholics out there who are whining about this heinous cracker abuse, I propose a little test for you to perform. The Bible relates a charming little fable about one such test which supposedly proved that Yahweh (the god of the Bible) was real. Anyone who has ever attended Sunday School will probaby recall this one.
See if you can duplicate it.
The story goes like this;
1 Kings 18:
21 Elijah approached all the people and said, "How long are you going to be paralyzed by indecision? If the Lord is the true God, then follow him, but if Baal is, follow him!" But the people did not say a word.
22 Elijah said to them: "I am the only prophet of the Lord who is left, but there are 450 prophets of Baal.
23 Let them bring us two bulls. Let them choose one of the bulls for themselves, cut it up into pieces, and place it on the wood. But they must not set it on fire. I will do the same to the other bull and place it on the wood. But I will not set it on fire.
24 Then you will invoke the name of your god, and I will invoke the name of the Lord. The god who responds with fire will demonstrate that he is the true God." All the people responded, "This will be a fair test."
25 Elijah told the prophets of Baal, "Choose one of the bulls for yourselves and go first, for you are the majority. Invoke the name of your god, but do not light a fire."
26 So they took a bull, as he had suggested, and prepared it. They invoked the name of Baal from morning until noon, saying, "Baal, answer us." But there was no sound and no answer. They jumped around on the altar they had made.
27 At noon Elijah mocked them, "Yell louder! After all, he is a god; he may be deep in thought, or perhaps he stepped out for a moment or has taken a trip. Perhaps he is sleeping and needs to be awakened."
28 So they yelled louder and, in accordance with their prescribed ritual, mutilated themselves with swords and spears until their bodies were covered with blood.
29 Throughout the afternoon they were in an ecstatic frenzy, but there was no sound, no answer, and no response.
36 When it was time for the evening offering, Elijah the prophet approached the altar and prayed: "O Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, prove today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command.
37 Answer me, O Lord, answer me, so these people will know that you, O Lord, are the true God and that you are winning back their allegiance."
38 Then fire from the Lord fell from the sky. It consumed the offering, the wood, the stones, and the dirt, and licked up the water in the trench.
39 When all the people saw this, they threw themselves down with their faces to the ground and said, "The Lord is the true God! The Lord is the true God!"
40 Elijah told them, "Seize the prophets of Baal! Don't let even one of them escape!" So they seized them, and Elijah led them down to the Kishon Valley and executed them there.
Dear Catholic idolators,
Until you can do the same thing, then I suggest that you quit your whinging and whining, and retreat into silence. If your god was able to defend himself back in those days, then I would expect him to be able to do the same thing now. Of course, deep down, I imagine you realise that this event never actually happened. If you did believe it, then surely you would feel no need to continue offering your hollow threats and your pathetic mewlings.
Remember what is written in your own scriptures;
Romans 12:19 - Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."
Hebrews 10:30 - For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people."
Or perhaps you need to;
"Yell louder! After all, he is a god; he may be deep in thought, or perhaps he stepped out for a moment or has taken a trip. Perhaps he is sleeping and needs to be awakened." : D
By the way, are you aware that the name 'Baal', when translated into English, simply means 'The Lord'?
How's THAT for irony?
"You don't appear to have examined my analogies sufficiently because you have completely misinterpreted their meanings"
They are really bad, really creepy analogies.
You weirdo.
I guess it's good that you're wasting so much time here, typing out your bizarre fantasies rather than going out into the real world and acting on them.
Pete Rooke,
That you choose to use analogies with overtones of rape and necrophilia, when you could have chosen any another subjects, is a projection of your personality - fostered, no doubt, by the catholic tradition of revering hatred, misogyny and death.
Comment #685 from Will:
"you wouldn't go over to India and slaughter cows in front of committed Hindus just to prove that cows aren't sacred to you, would you?"
Congratulations on a completely fair comparison. PZ, saying that he would desecrate something sacred to the Catholics on the web as a reaction to Catholic bigotry and idiocy is exactly the same as PZ desecrating something sacred to the Hindus in front of them for no real reason whatsoever. Good work.
"Why needlessly cause enormous emotional damage to thousands, including my 70yr catholic grandmother who, as far as I know, has never done anything to harm you?"
How does what PZ does on the internet effect your grandmother? Showing hardcore pornography to children could also cause "enormous emotional damage to thousands", would that be the fault of the porn-stars or the people showing this stuff to children? The only people that can be blamed for any offense caused over something like this is those that manufacture the outrage by telling as many people about it as possible. If you don't want your grandma to be emotionally damaged by this, don't show her. I doubt that she'll stumble upon it by herself.
"Much to my own chagrin, it appears we must accept that the hypocritical old bitch is one of us: according to her own diaries, she stopped believing in God many, many years ago."
No, actually Mother Teresa's Diaries do not say that she stopped believing in GOD--what they actually say is that she stopped feeling His presence and she wondered if He had abandoned her or if she was doing His will because she didn't have any palpable consolation to her petitions. Read the woman's own words for yourself before you start parrotting the same tired tripe you so readily imbibe on the internet....
And to October Mermaid's: "'Craig, if someone tried to take a Host from my parish I would have them arrested'
"No, you'll TRY to have them arrested.
"I know you like to believe in lots of silly, nonsensical things, but try to stick with the more supernatural, ok?"
Actually, Fr J is absolutely correct. I am a registered parishoner at the Cathedral of St. Paul and we have had several instances over just the past couple of years in which security has stopped people from walking out of the church during Communion with hosts they've pilphered--and those persons have been arrested by City of St Paul Police and charged with criminal trespass and theft. The priests in my home parish don't screw around with this garbage, and neither do many others.
If you come into a Catholic parish with the intent to subvert our Liturgy for the sake of personal hate and the wanton desecration of our Sacraments, you deserve to face the consequences--spiritual and temporal.
Mock if you like--it's your criminal record....
Oh, and by the by, in response to some witless knucklehead's earlier opin (I forget who): Why do you think the Source and Summit of all things has any need to "protect Himeself" from the likes of you? Talk about arrogance. GOD is not mocked--He lives on regardless, whilst you, you sad little terminal blob of protoplasm, will whither and die in spite of your best efforts, and your objections to Him will whither and die with you....and be forgotten by all. You rail against Something so much bigger than yourself that you don't even realise the absurdity of it.
What's really, truly hysterical is that a bunch of us so-called delusional, cracker-worshipping Flat-Landers have actually gotten all of you so-called "rationalists" arguing on ad nauseum about how superior you are because of your unbelief--and even better, y'all keep getting your panties into such a twist that you're enraged to the point of profanity and insults....all over a GOD Whom you claim doesn't exist!
Now talk about laughable! The intellectual "elites" blowing spittle all over themselves, eyes bulging and tempers raw because, dammit! GOD does not exist....whatever. It just goes to prove that the old addage about "angry athiests" really does hold true!
...Y'all were also the geniuses who, thirty years ago, said that Dark Matter was a delusion. I guess we cleared that one up, too, haven't we.....
Hehehe....
This is so much fun!
Just the way Jesus envisioned his church rules,regs, and laws. Never mind the fact he put people above religious rules. You could learn from this mr.priest.
It's about people not crackers or religion and you sir are very lost.
The Catholic Challenge
Dear Prof. Myers,
It was Nikolai Lenin on his deathbed, looked around and pleaded for the chairs and tables to forgive him. It was Voltaire who, on his deathbed, renounced all his atheistic beliefs and asked for a Roman Catholic Priest. And now, so does your soul rail and protest against your flesh and intellect, to wake up to the realities of God.
-Let's test your belief in nothingness against The Holy Roman Catholic Church, the Bride of Christ, and the only institution EVER to last a continuous 2000 years and remain virtually unchanged.
-Let us test your belief in 21st Century Science which still can't disprove or explain:
- The Shroud of Turin which has plant pollen from a plant which became extinct shortly after your Savior walked the earth in 33 AD. Oh, and the famous carbon 14 dating was done with an invalid sample.
- The Tilma of Guadalupe, a miracle from God, and which the cloth fiber should have disintegrated to nothing in 14 years but has lasted centuries. That the eyes of Our Lady on the tilma was found to reflect an image, set in time so long ago, which has been proven by scientists.
- The Fatima Miracle, where in Fatima, Portugal on October 13th, 1917, 80,000 people witnessed the miracle of the sun. The atheistic Portugal government officials who were present ceased their disbelief and believed. They converted to the Roman Catholic Religion. Newspapers from all over the world reported the miracle and many films and movies were made of the event. Three young peasant children from Fatima predicted the rise and fall of Communism, the end of the First World War and the beginning of the Second and many other predictions...All of which has taken place except for the 3rd Secret of Fatima which the world was spared.
The Catholic Challenge
My Catholic Challenge to you Professor Myers; let us truly put to the test your faith against the Holy Roman Catholic Church...The Communion of Saints...The Triumphant, The Militant and The Suffering. Do you have the faith or courage to take this Catholic Challenge?
For a few minor inconviences you could make a great point or with the multitude of Catholics and Saints praying for you, you just might be converted. Can you put your faith where you mouth is?
I will pay you $777 Dollars (there is significance to this number) if for one whole year (365 continuous days) you do the following:
1) Return all Eucharistic Hosts that you have in your possession or you will receive during the year immediately to the nearest local Catholic Church Parish Priest. Note: I will learn of the nearest local Catholic Church to your home by the news event or you will provide that information to me by e-mail.
2) For one whole year (365 continuous days) have a Image of The Divine Mercy of Christ (Blessed by the nearest local Catholic Parish Priest) placed and prominently displayed in the room in your house where you reside most during your waking hours. Our Lord promised to Sr. Faustina he would move the most hardened heart that looked upon this Image of His Divine Mercy.
3) Wear for one whole year (365 continuous days), a Miraculous Medal of Our Lady (Blessed by the nearest local Catholic Parish Priest). Wear the medal with a strong chain of moderate length so the medal hangs down against the center of your chest. You are not to remove it under any circumstance during the year. But you are required to show it (without taking it off) to anyone who wishes to see it as proof you're still wearing it. They don't call it the Miraculous Medal for nothing!
4) The Catholic Challenge begins October 13th, 2008. You are to hang the image and begin wearing the medal that morning. You will be provided the Blessed Image of Divine Mercy and the Blessed Miraculous Medal of Our Lady by the local Catholic Parishioners one day prior on Sunday October 12th, 2008 at 3:00PM, but you must go to the nearest Catholic Church from your home to pick up the sacramentals.
5) After 365 days have passed and after providing me instructions to where to send the money; I will send you a Bank Check for $777 Dollars within one week.
Well Professor, it seems like a lot but a lot is at stake. Millions will follow this. If you refuse, then all your fellow atheist will always wonder. If you take the Catholic Challenge then you just may make the change your soul is crying out for.
in regard to #717
Could this be the first invoking of Pascal in this thread?
Do we have a prize for our friendly troll?
Ratzinger's role in protecting the church against scandal became apparent four years ago. In May 2001, he sent a confidential letter to every bishop in the Catholic church reminding them of the strict penalties facing those who referred allegations of sexual abuse against priests to outside authorities.
The letter referred to a confidential Vatican document drawn up in 1962 instructing bishops on how to deal with allegations of sexual abuse between a priest and a child arising out of a confessional.
It urged them to investigate such allegations 'in the most secretive way... restrained by a perpetual silence... and everyone... is to observe the strictest secret which is commonly regarded as a secret of the Holy Office... under the penalty of excommunication'.
'What really bothers me about this document is the way it suggests that what happens in the confessional should stay in the confessional,' said Carmen Durso, a Boston lawyer who has represented scores of American victims abused by priests.
'In the cases I've dealt with, the paedophiles frequently use the confessional to try and initiate contact with youngsters.' Ratzinger also oversaw the creation of Essential Norms, a 2002 document that reaffirmed the church's right to retain its authority over abuse allegations.
Ratzinger went as far as to slap the wrist of a reporter who dared to ask him about the Maciel investigations. 'One can't put on trial such a close friend of the Pope as Marcial Maciel,' Ratzinger said on another occasion.
From http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/apr/24/children.childprotection1.
Scenario 2: You desecrated the Body of God.
Is it really worth the wager to make yourself look like an idiot?
Sometimes I just find myself bursting out in laughter.
Gawds bollacks! Blah blah blah, rape, sexual abuse, child molesting, lustrous blonde hair, necrophilia... PZ - please loose the Kracken and ink out the whole damn thread.
I'm going out to feed chickens and twirl. Fuck the catholics.
" Second, percentages are the same in the field of teaching, physicians and all occupations. "
Interesting. You're not the first Catholic to come here and say this almost verbatim.
Is this something Catholics repeat to themselves to make themselves feel better? It sure sounds like it. Do you get pamphlets or something? Probably titled "We're not SO bad. Look at what other people do!"
It's not a matter of saying "everyone else is doing it" but the fact is the percentages are the same across the board and yet the biggest thing I read is about how all Priest are Pedophiles. that's like saying all Doctors are, all teachers are. It's just not a factual statement. this problem is mainly a social problem that is widespread. By the way I was the one who wrote it before-
There isn't a true catholic who can condone such an abuse, but what right do you have to lay it out like all catholics think it's ok or all priest are child molesters.
Shove it Fr. J. You know you're a world-class asshole and you're proud of it. You're a typical worthless shithead priest. Drop dead.
Fr. J @ 619: "In my time there I saw no homosexuals come in to change diapers. They shunned these men. Nor did I meet a single atheist who came to help."
How would you know? Did you ask? If so, what makes you think people would tell you the truth? Or do you just have fantastic gay-dar and atheist-dar?
"What's really, truly hysterical is that a bunch of us so-called delusional, cracker-worshipping Flat-Landers have actually gotten all of you so-called "rationalists" arguing on ad nauseum about how superior you are because of your unbelief--and even better, y'all keep getting your panties into such a twist that you're enraged to the point of profanity and insults....all over a GOD Whom you claim doesn't exist!"
Who is angry? I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm keeping up with this because I'm bored and it's entertaining.
And besides, I use profanity and insults all the time, you stupid fucking dingbat.
The recordation of all 14,000(?) messages in crackergate is worth it just to see exposure of a Catholic leader's (with 3 degrees no less and working on #4!!) thought processes. Fr. J you convey more than 10,000 volumes with your wish to incarcerate and excommunicate young Mr. Cook. Yet you have no shame do you?
Miki- You seem abjectly angry while talking about 'angry' atheists? Seems a lack of self introspection. You 'blog' is a very angry place.
I doubt God gives a whit what happens to a cracker.
SC@678 Nice try, but I'm afraid you haven't quite caught the stomach-churning combination of prurience and ghoulishness that marks Pete Rooke's genius!
Shooting only for silly. I'm proud to say I'm incapable of mimicking the grotesque perversity that is a Rooke analogy even if I wanted to.
freelunch @ #640
I understand that the Packers tickets were a last minute substitution. PZ was getting Tom Landry's hat for the Viking Funeral, but that would have been something he really could've gotten in trouble about.
Jesus said it best, while he hung on the Cross: "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."
#732
Hey, PZ, I say you take this guy up on it. You know what they say about a fool and his money. If you already trashed the eucharist you had, just get another wafer. Dipshit's not gonna know the difference.
Easy money.
"There isn't a true catholic who can condone such an abuse, but what right do you have to lay it out like all catholics think it's ok or all priest are child molesters"
Nobody says that. What we say is that all priests... all Catholics for that matter, are members of an organization that has protected child molesters from discovery and prosecution.
It's not about "our guys fuck little kids less than your guys do."
It's about your RESPONSE to these crimes. And the Catholic church's response to the crimes has been in itself criminal.
"I'm relaxing after a lovely dinner. Thinking about opening up some pinot noir."
That's a perfect way to relax. Might have to do that myself.
Hehehe....
This is so much fun!
Posted by: Miki Tracy | July 23, 2008 9:32 PM
So true. You are hilarious.
Er, it certainly was official policy to cover up the sex scandals:
How much more official do you want? I'll be honest. I simply don't understand how this, along with the actions of the Catholic Church in Africa [where millions have died], hasn't lead all Catholics to leave this barbaric institution. And you are getting upset over a cracker?
This is exactly why PZ is abusing the thing in the first place. Our show of disrespect actually elevates the really important issues, by making it clear that, no, we will not respect the fact that some Catholics believe the Eucharist to be as important as human life. The is offensive.
747 posts by my count and still no evidence for the miraculous claims of Catholicism. Daniel Dennett was right about "belief in belief."
Miki Tracy - Please keep enlightening us.
Given that this is PZ's son's birthday, and that he's asked us to "chill" (re. 1000-comment topics), I can tell this one's screaming towards the 4-digit mark with little hesitation.
Talk all you want, but it's obvious the pro-cracker folks aren't interested in discussion. Let's not help them be idiots...
This is the link.
I am kind of surprised that more people have not jumped all over Baba for posting one of the more ignorant and frankly evil statements ever.
Hitler had no contempt for rationality - it formed the backbone of his ideology.
Baba, you stupid motherfucker! I will inform you what the backbone of Nazi ideology was. It is very simple, pay attention now. The backbone of Nazi ideology WAS TOO KILL EVERY PERSON THAT HITLER DEFINED AS A JEW! Now tell me, you product of a pile of dogshit, is there anything remotely rational about this.
The Nazi chased out scholars, engineers and scientists who they deemed to be Jews. The reason being that anything of Jewish origin was corrupt. Is there anything remotely rational about this?
If you knew anything about Hitler, you would know that his appeal to his followers was emotional, rationality played no part in this. His speeches were known for the theatrical flourishes. Hitler did not communicate in calm and ration tones.
If you follow how Hitler conducted the war, one would be hard pressed to find ration action, from delaying the opening of Operation Barbarossa (The invasion of the USSR.) by six weeks in order to bring Greece under to control to his insistence that no German was to retreat in combat.
Baba, you stupid git, there was nothing rational about Hitler. Now please find a telephone covered with splinters and shove it up your ass, sideways.
MikiTracy - you claim atheists are angry? What's your linked blog called again? - you wrote shrieked, shrilly:
Well, I'm feeling the Christian love. Anyone else?
Again, I ask my question; can you answer it oh wise one?
If this is such a big deal for Catholics why hasn't the pope said anything?
@732
Miraculous medals and magical images. For some reason, I'm reminded of some bits of Scripture:
"Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions." (Colossians 2:18, NIV)
"Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God." (Leviticus 26:1, NIV)
Repent, pagan heretic.
Miki Tracy,
It's not the atheists who have been issuing death threats, but your fellow believers. You're quite right to say "God is not mocked" however - how could you mock something that doesn't exist? Fairies and unicorns are not mocked either. Godbots such as yourself, on the other hand, most certainly are mocked - imagine, believing a man in a dress mumbling a few words can turn a cracker into part of the body of another man who died nearly 2000 years ago! Can you even think of anything more laughable? Scientology? Doesn't even come close. David Icke? An amateur! For the real monster raving lunacies, no-one, but no-one, comes close to the RCC!
Sastra @353:
You don't specify what "overreaction" you're speaking of, but I'm not aware of anything you could be speaking of that could be rightly attributed to "the Church" or to anyone authorized to speak for the Church or for all Catholics.
(I realize a lot of people here may not understand that Mr. Donohue doesn't work for the Catholic Church, but, well, he doesn't.)
Look. All I'm saying is this. There are a whole lot of Catholics out here, the great majority of us in fact, who aren't assaulting people, aren't writing hate mail or death threats, aren't trying to lynch atheists, etc. Many of us speak out against these things when we get the chance, and try to do our bit to make the world a better place.
Some of you harbor prejudices against us (one "bright" soul above associates Catholics with support for the "Bush crusade," which shows how much he knows about the Vatican and the U.S. bishops). That's okay. We can deal with prejudice, if we have open minds.
Just understand that when you go out of your way to physically attack the Eucharist -- and by now it should be clear I'm not asking for any special deference or respect for my faith, just minimally not specifically going out of your way to invade my church and attack my sacred stuff -- you aren't just targeting hate mailers, death-threateners, atheist-haters, etc. You're targeting a lot of people whom you might want to consider haven't done you any harm and really would like to just get along as respectfully as possible.
I know, the Church is evil because it oppose condoms and same-sex marriage, so that means Catholics forfeit all right to plea for minimal civil respect. Well, okay, if that's the way it is, that's the way it is. I'm just saying, maybe there are a few atheists out there who may not see it that way. Otherwise, I'm wasting my time.
Patricia wrote in #582:
"DingoDave - I owe you an apology. I mistook one of your remarks as being that of a goddist. Please pardon my stupidity, I'm sorry."
No sweat, I probably should have made it clearer. Anyway, I learned a good lesson from it, and that's the main thing.
By the way DON'T do it again. OK? : )
St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in the day of battle; be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do thou, O prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, cast into hell Satan and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.
So, SDG, you're shallow enough to think the Church's homohatred is limited to opposition to same-sex marriage.
Bwahahahahahahaha!
OK, one last attempt to break through to you. Suppose you were a milkman with rotting teeth and cankerous lips. Before delivering each milk bottle you would take a swig and place it on the doorstep. You continued to abuse you privileged access to other people's milk for years. Then one day you decide to retire. Before you leave however, you let all of your customers know what you've been engaged in by letter while also leaving a picture of your cankerous mouth under each bottle. You have gleefully proclaimed your actions to all who will listen. No one was physically harmed and yet every customer (read: Catholic) affected feels deeply violated and abused. PZ Myers is effectively that milkman.
St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in the day of battle; be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do thou, O prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, cast into hell Satan and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.
It's MAGIC! *jazz hands*
I'm sure enough that you are missing a huge chunk of a normal personality, that, if I knew what city you are in, I'd call the cops.
Psycopaths often appear excessively religious. It's good camoflague since nothing ever means anything to them.
The cops are always interested in tips like this. They always have a cold case file and random killers are hard to catch because they have no obvious connection to their victims.
Not much on the occult but my friend would terrify you. He is an evaluator in the secure psychiatric lockup and he would see through you in a heartbeat.
I hope it isn't the west coast. If it was my city, I'd be down with the cops reviewing the missing persons and cold case files and seeing how they correlate with your residence.
@763 You sir are too much. Do you do birthday parties?
It's funny that there are some people criticizing PZ for "wasting his time" desecrating a cracker, because it's "meaningless". That's exactly the point!
"Desecrating" a cracker does not prove PZ is acknowledging God's presence. He's merely showing it's a dumb object and has no magic powers. He's not doing it for himself, he's doing it for all the retarded children that think it DOES have magic powers.
Seriously, if some adults went around today believing the literal truth of Harry Potter, worshiping his Wizardness, and holding the invisible cape as sacred, Catholics would think they were insane. And then they would know how atheists view Catholics.
You're all small-minded children who can't let go of make-believe. It's a shame, because you can't really appreciate the universe you live in until you accept it for what it is.
And, like many others, I'm getting really tired of seeing the "blasphemy=bigotry" argument. As many have pointed out, this fails in so many ways it's ridiculous.
"OK, one last attempt to break through to you. Suppose you were a milkman with rotting teeth and cankerous lips"
HAVE YOU NO SHAME, SIR!? HAVE YOU AT LAST NO SHAME!?
Enjoy the movie and happy birthday to your son.
Thus spake Capital Dan:
Probably psilocybin: the same shit St. John the Evangelist was on when he wrote the Book of Revelation.
SC #678, LOL! Next time you're running that ceremony, can I watch? :o)
RC #679, If you don't like your beliefs being ridiculed, you should avoid believing the ridiculous.
Will #685:
Epic analogy fail. PZ is not going to piss in the tabernacle in a Catholic church during 11 AM mass. If Hindus come to a beef butcher's abattoir, they're going to see cows getting slaughtered and if they don't like it, they can just fuck off. Same as Catholics here on Pharyngula.
SDG #703:
No, sorry. No "charge". No "legitimate discussion". The Catholic church institutionally and systematically shields child-rapists from the due process of law. This is a matter of public record in a number of countries. The official policy document from 1962 is in the public domain. The fact that the Vatican returns letters from law enforcement unopened as a matter of policy is a well-documented fact. This is blatantly immoral.
I do no such thing. I say "if you remain a member of the Catholic church knowing the above FACTS, you are in a state of abject moral turpitude and thus have no right to pontificate about correct behaviour or morality to anyone; you are a hypocrite if you do". I do not disrupt Church services in protest, nor do I deny the fundamental rights of any person, Catholic or otherwise, to hold their belief or express their opinions, but I absolutely will not be condescended to by someone who is a member of an International Child Rape Facilitation Mafia. NO FUCKING WAY.
Get it?
Fr J is almost as bad as Baba. Just because Fr J saw no gays or atheist where he was volunteering, he has his proof that both of those groups did nothing to help the suffering.
Hey Fr "142 IQ" J, could it be that those people had other places to volunteer other than a catholic hospice. And what of all the gay atheists who cared for their partner at home. You complain about being insulted. But your words are an insult to all people who cared for their loved ones as they died. You refuse to acknowledge all of these people. And for that, I say "FUCK YOU".
This professor is a sad little man. I will pray for him, but he is one real low life. If they were in fact consecrated hosts, then they were in fact stolen property. Nobobody can remove consecrated hosts from a church w/out the explicit permission of the priest. They were stolen and this rotten professor has therefor destroyed stolen property. He has comitted a vicious hate crime towards all Catholics. This is nothing but hateful bigotry.
Is anyone else getting the idea that Pete Rooke is in a gimp outfit, jerking off with one eye on a bible opened to Revelation and the other on a tv showing a snuff film?
Seriously, where do you get this sick shit from?
I'll ask, yet again: Why hasn't the pope weighed in on this 'crime against all catholics'?
Suppose you were an AIDS infested leper with syphilis, herpes and a bad head cold and suppose your girlfriend was deaf and blind. Suppose you french-kissed her repeatedly. Could you participate in a Peter Rooke analogy?
I don't understand the professor. What's the point of all this? He takes pleasure insulting a person's religious faith? To what end? I'm glad I'm not paying taxes in Minnesota supporting an idiot like this.
Honestly, I would probably never go out of my way to desecrate a holy place or object. Even though Christianity is bullshit, people are entitled to practice whatever religious nonsense they wish.
However, I think it's important to contextualize PZ's desecration. He did it as an act of solidarity with the Florida student who was persecuted for his actions involving the wafer. PZ didn't dream this up out of the blue. Nor did he encourage any disruption or invasion of church property. He merely asked if anyone could provide him with the sort of wafer in question.
I really hate this whole episode because it distracts from what we should be debating--the liabilities of faith-based thinking. Instead this is a giant pissing match where the religious people get to play victim and never have to justify their unsubstantiated beliefs.
Only if you suppose you were a spherical, frictionless chicken.
SDG (759)
"Just understand that when you go out of your way to physically attack the Eucharist..."
Please explain how putting a wafer in one's pocket instead of one's mouth could be in any way construed as attacking the wafer? Even if it's Jesus in the pocket he's just in for a stuffy ride.
And maybe explain why eating Jesus would not be less of an attack? Being left in the pocket while one walks to the preplanned place of desicration would at least give wafer Jesus a few more minutes before destruction. This looks like I'm mocking you but in the wacky world of transubstantion they're legit questions.
Could you participate in a Peter Rooke analogy?
Only if you sliced off her labia to make book covers because they were visible under her miniskirt.
Peter Rooke, third ranking dipshit of this thread. Your milkman can spread diseases to his customers. He can do great harm. NO ONE IS HURT BY PZ DESTROYING A CRACKER.
Now please fuck off quietly when you go.
#732: Wow. This has got to be the funniest post in this whole thread so far.
It was Voltaire who, on his deathbed, renounced all his atheistic beliefs and asked for a Roman Catholic Priest.
Ah, bullshit. From the linked page: When Voltaire was dying, in his eighties, a priest in attendance called upon him to renounce the devil. Voltaire considered his advice, but decided not to follow it. "This is no time," he said, "to be making new enemies".
And even if it had happened, it still wouldn't prove your sky fairy exists. So you'll have to do better than phony deathbed conversion stories. Try a little evidence instead. And no, the yarn about the Fatima "Miracle" and nonsense about dating the Shroud you cook up aren't good enough.
As for your guffaw-inducing "Challenge," what exactly do you think will happen? PZ wears your little chintzy talisman for a year, then you pay him $777, then he takes it off and is still an atheist. All that's resulted is that you're out some money. Whoop-de-do. What's been proven? That your sky-fairy exists, or that theists can easily be parted from their cash for a meaningless stunt, and are even willing to give their money away over one? Seriously, if you think that just having religious imagery visible in your room for a year will result in a conversion, you're even more hilariously irrational than most theists.
I suppose if PZ had a statue of Ganesh on his desk, he'd be Hindu in a year? Seems like this is just an example of Pascal's Wager taken to its idiotic extreme. Here's a real challenge for you, PZ: plaster your walls with images and icons of every active religion on Earth. At the end of the year, we'll see which one you convert to. We can tape it for a reality show and make it like an atheist version of Survivor. "This week, which god will get voted out of PZ's office? Will it be Wotan, Isis, or Ahura Mazda? Tune in tomorrow!"
Well Professor, it seems like a lot but a lot is at stake. Millions will follow this. If you refuse, then all your fellow atheist will always wonder.
No we won't. We'll just assume he thinks the same thing we do, that you're a silly prat with an inflated sense of regard for your childish delusions and a walking example of just how profoundly irrational beliefs can prompt one to unintentionally comical behavior. And the only thing that's at stake is the $777 you'd piss away over nothing.
"Suppose you were a milkman with rotting teeth and cankerous lips..."
Oh. Um, l-- look, i-- i-- if we built this large wooden badger
Paul @ 732
Come on. You forgot the one about Darwin converting on his deathbed too. That one is my personal favorite.
Adamant Atheist (#776)- I'm glad you put it in perspective. How do we get it back on track to discuss the liabilities of faith-based thinking instead of people focusing on being "victims"?
Phil, #775, blathered: I'm glad I'm not paying taxes in Minnesota supporting an idiot like this.
So, you support people not having to pay taxes to support something they don't agree with? I hope you get what you want - because it'll do a lot more harm to christians than it'd ever do to PZ.
Moron.
Catholics, I ask again: If this is such a monstrous attack, why hasn't the pope spoken out against it?
The decline of the Catholic Church in the U.S.A.
Priests
Between 1930 and 1965, the number of priests in the United States more than doubled to 58,000.
Since then the number has fallen to 45,000.
By 2020, there will be only 31,000 priests left, and more than half of these priests will be over 70.
In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States.
In 2002, the number was 450.
In 1965, only 1% of U.S. parishes were without a priest.
In 2002 this number is 15%.
Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700.
Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965 have now closed.
Religious Orders.
In 1965, there were 179,954 women in Catholic religious orders.
By 2002, that had fallen to 75,000, in 2005 it was 68,634
and the average age of a Catholic nun is today 68.
In 1965, 3,559 young men were studying to become Jesuit priests.
In 2000, the figure was 389.
With the Christian Brothers, the situation is even more dire.
Their number has now shrunk by two-thirds.
In 1965, there were 912 seminarians in the Christian Brothers.
In 2000, there were only 7.
The number of young men studying to become Franciscan and Redemptorist priests
fell from 3,379 in 1965 to 84 in 2000.
Catholic schools.
Almost half of all Catholic high schools in the United States have closed since 1965.
The student population has fallen from 700,000 to 386,000.
Parochial schools have suffered even worse. Some 4,000 have shut down,
and the number of pupils has fallen from 4.5 million to just under 2 million.
Catholic Marriage.
Catholic marriages have fallen in number by one-third since 1965.
The annual number of annulments has soared from 338 in 1968 to 50,000 in 2002.
Attendance at Mass.
In 1958, a Gallup Poll reported that 74% of Catholics then attended church on Sundays.
In 1965, it seems that 65% attended, according to a recent Fordham University study.
In 1994, it seems that 27% attended church, according to study by the University of Notre Dame.
In 2000, the rate was 25%, according to the Fordham study.
Indicative beliefs
70% of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is a "symbolic reminder" of Jesus.
90% of lay religious teachers reject church teaching on contraception.
53% believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic.
65% believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry.
75% believe one can be a good Catholic without attending mass on Sundays.
But he is a LOVING God.
And he needs Money!
Hey, I'm an atheist. I'm also disabled and disability doesn't pay much.
So I'll happily wear any talisman you want for a year for a nice sum of money.
Bedtime now, I'll check in the morning to see who's willing to pony up the dough.
I doubt the world is ending. You aren't the first person to desecrate the Eucharist, many thousands throughout the ages have done likewise. Nor will you likely be the last. Some Christ hating Muslim or Satanist or whackjob who may never even have heard of you will probably do it again this week, albeit maybe with less fan fare.
As for me. I attend a Catholic Church and certainly hold the Eucharist in higher regard than you or your posters. I also believe in religious liberty and free speech, hence I am glad no one in government or your place of employment have censored you. No having said that I also believe what you did is rather infantile, insensitive, not terribly brave and stupid.
Such is the world. Nothing new under the sun. Time to move on. Have fun trying to convince humans they evolved from monkeys. Sometimes monkeys actually make more sense!
Sincerely
Bill Whatcott
"That which has been is what will be,That which is done is what will be done, And there is nothing new under the sun. Is there anything of which it may be said, " See, this is new"? It has already been in ancient times before us. There is no remembrance of former things,Nor will there be any remembrance of things that are to come by those who will come after."
Ecclesiastes 1:9-11
"Such is the world. Nothing new under the sun. Time to move on. Have fun trying to convince humans they evolved from monkeys. Sometimes monkeys actually make more sense!"
*Sigh*
You idiot.
Craig, #786:
Excellent - the stats brought something to my mind
(singing)
Ding, dong, the witch is dead...
Catholics, if PZ's actions are so offensive to all those who hold your faith, why hasn't the pope said anything?
What kind of professional are you? Aren't you supposed to be a college professor? I'm not Catholic, I don't particularly like the Catholic Church...but aren't Liberal academics supposed to respect other religions??? After all, why go to there level. I think you're an immature man looking for attention, which is no big deal. However, what this says about our universities worries me...how embarrassing for your institution.
I have learned through all of this, that atheists are enlightened people. And so kind too!
Posted by: Mary Elizabeth | July 23, 2008 9:29 PM
Would you prefer we show some Christian-like kindness and condemn you to eternal suffering for not agreeing with us?
Scary, after reading through most of the dribble above, kinda get the feeling what chatter will be like in hell. Even being on this diseased and evil science blog for this short time makes me feel afflicted, ailing, amort, bilious, chagrined, confined, crapulent, crapulous, debilitated, depressed, disgusted, down, feverish, frail, gross, ill, impaired, indisposed, infected, lousy, morbid, morbific, moribund, nauseated, pale, pining, queasy, sickly, stricken, suffering, unhealthy, unsound, unwell, unwholesome, upset, valetudinary, weak, weary, wretched and cold.
Oh I'm sure science has some sort of little round compacted chemical to help me feel better, but I prefer the precious Body of Christ first thing every morning. So....I'm out-a-here, but before I go, can't forget to leave this on your site....
St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in the day of battle; be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do thou, O prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, cast into hell Satan and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.
Fr. J @ 573, and others:
My girlfriend and I (both atheists) have worked in hospices and other volunteer positions, for no other reason than we wanted to help people.
As you seem ignorant on the issue, here is a partial list of charities and other organizations working to help people, which are avowedly secular (besides Bill Gates, who's already been mentioned in this context):
DonorsChoose.org
a simple way to provide students in need with resources that our public schools often lack.
Kiva.org
lets you connect with and loan money to unique small businesses in the developing world.
The Union of Concerned Scientists
The leading science-based non-profit working for a healthy environment and safer world.
American Red Cross
The American Red Cross, a humanitarian organization led by volunteers, guided by its Congressional Charter and the Fundamental Principles of the International Red Cross Movement, will provide relief to victims of disasters and help people prevent, prepare for, and respond to emergencies. The USA's premier emergency response organization, over 91% of Red Cross spending is on charitable services.
American Civil Liberties Union
The mission of the ACLU is to preserve all of constitutional protections and guarantees relating to First Amendment rights, including the freedom to practice religion and the freedom not to have religion rammed down our throats, equal protection, due process, and right to privacy.
United Nations Children's Fund
UNICEF mobilizes political will and material resources to help countries, particularly developing countries, ensure a "first call for children" and to build their capacity to form appropriate policies and deliver services for children and their families. UNICEF provides emergency and disaster relief.
Doctors without Borders
Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) is an international independent medical humanitarian organization that delivers emergency aid to people affected by armed conflict, epidemics, natural and man-made disasters, and exclusion from health care in nearly 70 countries.
Amnesty International
AI's vision is of a world in which every person enjoys all of the human rights enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and other international human rights standards.
In pursuit of this vision, AI's mission is to undertake research and action focused on preventing and ending grave abuses of the rights to physical and mental integrity, freedom of conscience and expression, and freedom from discrimination, within the context of its work to promote all human rights.
Oxfam International
Oxfam International is a confederation of 12 organizations working together with over 3,000 partners in more than 100 countries to find lasting solutions to poverty, suffering and injustice. The Oxfams operate in over 100 countries worldwide working with local partners to alleviate poverty and injustice.
The Nature Conservancy
The Nature Conservancy is a leading international, nonprofit organization dedicated to preserving the diversity of life on Earth. An environmental group that protects natural habitats and the wildlife within them. Focuses on "science-based" initiatives.
Population Connection
Population Connection is the national grassroots population organization that educates young people and advocates progressive action to stabilize world population at a level that can be sustained by Earth's resources. Works against faith-based policies that are supported by the Religious Right.
DefCon: Campaign to Defend the Constitution
DefCon is an online grassroots movement combating the growing power of the religious right. It includes a blog on religious freedom issues, action alerts, and in-depth articles on scientific, religious, and legal issues of the day.
The SEED foundation
National nonprofit that establishes urban public boarding schools to prepare students from underserved communities for success in college.
Issue-Specific Secularist Organizations
Anti-Discrimination Support Network (ADSN)
The ADSN Project.
The Freethought Society of Greater Philadelphia's Anti-Discrimination support network (ADSN) is collecting narratives highlighting instances of bigotry against the nontheist community.
Pro-choice organizations
Planned Parenthood Federation of America
Provides reproductive health care services, advocates for women's reproductive rights, and offers educational services for women.
NARAL Pro-choice America
Focuses mostly on the social and legal activism for women's abortion rights.
Womens Health Organizations
EngenderHealth
an international nonprofit organization that has been working for 60 years to make reproductive health services safe, available, and sustainable for women and men worldwide.
Ipas
an international organization that works around the world to increase women's ability to exercise their sexual and reproductive rights, and to reduce abortion-related deaths and injuries.
Teen Pregnancy Reduction
National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy
Sadly this charity is rated with only 2 stars due to low efficiency. However their goal is highly respectable and needed, to prevent teen pregnancy and unplanned pregnancy among single, young adults.
HIV/AIDS
Treatment Action Campaign
campaign for treatment for people with HIV and to reduce new HIV infections. Our efforts have resulted in many life-saving interventions, including the implementation of country-wide mother-to-child transmission prevention and antiretroviral treatment programmes.
U.S. Military
Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers
Challenging the myth that "there are no atheists in foxholes." There certainly are.
Gay rights
Lambda
A national non-profit gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgender (GLBT) agency dedicated to reducing homophobia, inequality, hate crimes, and discrimination by encouraging self-acceptance, cooperation, and non-violence.
Lambda Legal
The legal arm of the Lambda organization that protects GLBT civil rights through impact litigation, education and public policy work.
Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation
Dedicated to promoting and ensuring fair, accurate and inclusive representation of people and events in the media as a means of eliminating homophobia and discrimination based on gender identity and sexual orientation.
Human Rights Campaign
Large organization working for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender equal rights.
School vouchers
National Education Association (NEA) on school vouchers
Provides several arguments for the case against private school vouchers.
Pledge of Allegiance
Restore the Pledge
Support Michael Newdow in his quest to remove the phrase "under God" from the official Pledge of Allegiance, coercively recited by millions of schoolchildren every day.
Evolution/Creationism in the science classroom
National Center for Science Education
Great resource with current news and resources (including the famous "Project Steve" list!) on defending evolution and science against pseudoscience advocates.
Boy Scouts of America discrimination against atheists, gays
Scouting For All
Composed of mostly former Boy Scouts, it is working to influence the BSA to include all participating youth members and leaders regardless of religious beliefs or sexual orientation.
Children in Poor countries
PlanUSA
an organization committed to helping children, their families and communities in 49 developing countries around the world.
Church/state separation and secularist organizations
Americans United for Separation of Church and State
A national watchdog organization (with local chapters all around the U.S.---find one near you!) dedicated to preserving religious liberty. It is open to theists and nontheists of all kinds, and is headed by a minister with the United Church of Christ (Rev. Barry Lynn) who can be seen often in the national media and news stories centering on church/state separation issues.
American Civil Liberties Union (click on the "Religious Liberty" link)
A favorite target of the Religious Right. The ACLU defends civil liberties on many fronts including church/state separation, personal privacy, and legal protection through due process. Look for a local chapter in your area to join.
People for the American Way
Progressive group that supports secular values in government. PFAW is an activist organization and PAC (political action committee) working to battle such groups as the Christian Coalition. Click the "Religious Freedom" link for action alerts and information.
Freedom from Religion Foundation
Great organization that defends the rights of nontheists in courtrooms, sponsors a fun-filled annual national convention, and publishes the popular "Freethought Today" (magazine written by and for freethinkers).
Godless Americans Political Action Committee
Endorses and supports U.S. political candidates that support secular values in government and the rights of "godless Americans." We will have our "seat at the table" in formulating public policy.
Atheist Alliance
Democratic association of various individual atheists and atheist organizations. It is a great all-around resource for all-things atheist.
Interfaith Alliance
Alliance of leaders of various religions, worldviews, and beliefs that includes Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, agnostics, atheists, et al. It works to promote religious freedom for everyone regardless of religious beliefs as well as civic participation and civility. Nontheists can find theist allies here.
American Atheists
Controversial atheist organization started by the infamous Madalyn Murray O'Hair. Today it fights for the complete separation of church and state, as well as for the rights of atheists in America.
Secular Coalition for America
Vast coalition of secular and freethought organizations (including the Internet Infidels!) dedicated to sending lobbyists to Washington, D.C. to gain support for protecting the rights of nontheist Americans.
Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science
Explores the causes of religious belief, promotes science in public schools, maintains a list of public lecturers, sells pro-secularist books and other media, and facilitates the giving of humanitarian aid to organizations that are completely secular in nature.
Europe
National Secular Society
Supports secularism in the UK, as well as church-state separation.
Rationalist Association
The Rationalist Association is a focus for rationalist thought and debate in the UK and worldwide. The RA is the UK's leading freethought and rationalist book publisher.
Australia
Atheist Foundation of Australia, Inc.
Something for our friends Down Under -- lots of good information, book lists, humor, etc.
Organizations that promote humanism/Atheism
Council for Secular Humanism
Large organization that offers support for secular humanists through activities such as magazine publishing, conducting secular ceremonies (weddings, funerals, etc.), educational courses, and summer camps for kids that teach critical thinking skills and secular ethical values.
American Humanist Association
Promotes the spread of humanism and furthering of the humanist philosophy in the U.S. by working with and/or establishing like-minded organizations.
The Continuum of Humanist Education
Online courses available for humanists in areas such as law, science, ethics, and secular humanist philosophy.
The Institute for Humanist Studies (IHS)
A think-tank that offers news, opinions, information, and humor relating to humanism. It works to spread public awareness and acceptance of humanist principles.
British Humanist Association
The largest provider of humanist ceremonies in England and Wales. Offers services for weddings, funerals, and baby-namings as well as general resources on humanism and support for humanist organizations.
Humanist Association of Canada
Provides secular officiants, information, services, and support for humanists in Canada.
Positive Atheism
Comprehensive resource for positive atheists to learn about atheism, history, philosophy, religious freedom, and responsibility.
Unitarian Universalist Assocation
A popular "church" for atheists, agnostics, deists, very liberal Christians, etc. Check your local yellow pages for one in your community or use this website's handy Congregation locator.
The Brights
A movement endorsed by several prominent nontheists to adopt a new term ("Brights") with an accompanying philosophy to describe secularists, freethinkers, atheists, naturalists, etc. with the intent of putting forth a positive, and less-stigmatized, perception of ourselves. Many nontheists have encouraged its use, while many others reject it.
The Objectivist Center
A controversial philosophy founded by Ayn Rand that embodies particular principles on various philosophical, political, economic, and religious issues. Objectivists generally are atheists, but atheists are generally not Objectivists.
Skeptic Society
Learn how to live life free of nonsensical beliefs, and develop your own scientific and critical thinking skills. Also publishes a popular monthly magazine, SKEPTIC, which can be found in major bookstores.
Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP)
Investigates extraordinary claims from a scientific and rational perspective. CSICOP also puts out a popular monthly magazine, Skeptical Inquirer, found in major bookstores.
American Ethical Union (AEU)
The American Ethical Union (AEU) describes "Ethical Culture" as a humanistic religious and educational movement inspired by the ideal that the supreme aim of human life is working to create a more humane society.
International Humanist and Ethical Union (IHEU)
IHEU is the sole world umbrella organisation for humanist, atheist, rationalist, secularist, skeptic, laique, ethical cultural, freethought and similar organisations world-wide.
In the last days they shall come with mocking....
May Jesus Christ, Who so humbles Himself to become our manna, have mercy on your soul. He is the King of mercy.
Pride goeth before the fall.
#789
Here's what Mr. Bill Whatcott had to say on that joke of a website his name links to:
"I will write the university tonight about this. I would respect the Prof more if he took on Islam with equal vitriol but his type never would do such a thing. The death cult would behead him. Catholics on the other hand simply get offended which it seems was what he was looking for.
Sincerely
Bill Whatcott"
Well, well. How'd that university writing go? Work out? And do you respect PZ now? No? Golly. Surprising. And I would never expected someone with your OBVIOUS intellect to use the whole "Oh, he'd never insult Muslims" nonsense. Yeah, PZ's never done that before. Never. Nope. Not once. Not "his kind."
You idiot.
I hope he brags on his forum about how he got "persecuted by the mean ol' atheists."
"God" knows that "his kind" gets off on that.
Tim Wyciskalla #792
Reading isn't one of your strengths, is it, Tim?
Dear E.V., isn't Ann Coulter so totally awesome beyond words!!!??? Very funny to listen to, as well. But truly, my favourite guy on the planet is Glenn Beck, followed in a close second by Ruch Limbaugh (the Bomb! Makes my heart soar...)....Regardless, thanks so much for the *compliment*!!! I appreciate it.
...at any rate, mayhempics wrote: "But I do like the ID idea. They can be signed by God so you know who is really a true Catholic. But does he also sign Mormon and Baptist IDs? Maybe the Mormons can carry around gold tablets and the Jews stone ones... but then what is left for the Catholics? Wait.. I got it... a signed cracker from Jesus. I means it the least he can do for you protecting his reconstituted flesh and all..."
You know, you've got an awesome idea, here, Lovey--truly awesome! After all, Mormons have to go in every month for a Bishop's interview in order to remain in good standing and every holder of a Temple recommend must have a new one signed by their ward's bishop and the stake president each and every year before they can even buy Temple garments or certain pieces of literature at the local LDS Distribution Center. And when you show up at the Temple gate, no valid temple recommend, no getting into the foyer, let alone the Celestial Room. Why not Catholics?
Oh, yes, this is a spectacular idea--no receiving the Blessed Sacrament in Mass unless you have a signed card and can be recognised as a true, practising believer by every priest in attendance. Yeah! You just gave us the means, mayhem, of weeding out all the wolves and ne'erdowells! We need a new Inquisition! All Liberals must burn. Yes, and all derelicts, too. Thanks for this. I'll get started on a petition right away.
By the by--the Mormons don't have the brass plates anymore. Moronui couldn't trust Joseph Smith, Jr. with 'em anymore because he kept getting all loosy-goosy with 'em and showing 'em to anyone he so chose whenever the mood struck him. So Moroni took 'em back and they're in the Council Room of the Celestial Kingdom on a shelf right beside Mein Kampf and Richard Scarry's Book of Letters.
Get your facts straight before you go blabbing.
Are you the Antichrist disguised as a "scientist"? Did you really apply the scientific method correctly in your little "cracker" experiment?..just some food for thought...I'll keep you in my prayers.
Fr J 687
The florida statutes are clear, it is a misdemeanor to wilfully interrupt or disturb mass.
So :
1. it would be to a court to decide if he has or not wilfully interrupted or disturbed this mass
NOT YOU
2. the penalties are mentionned in the statute, and only a repeat offender could be punished by actual jail time.
3. it's not a crime, but it could be a misdemeanor
4. She has the right to do what she wants as long as she doesn't resort to violence. And she could have tried to talk to him, instead of twisting his arm. That might have prevented that SHE caused the interruption of the mass, and that he took the Eucharist away, and the whole crackergate that followed. She didn't attempt to stop him, she provoked everything.
Remember what the Pope John Paul II sais in his encyclical :
She COULD Have tried to enter into a dialogue with Webster Cook, even if he were one of the "others" as she might have suspected for whatever reasons. She could have simply said :
"Excuse me young man, but why are you not consuming the Eucharist ?"
Just by asking a simple question, she could have stopped this whole chain of events.
She did something which is TERRIBLY WRONG from the Pope's point of view because it caused, as the Pope wrote in his Encyclical, MUCH deeper skepticism about the truth.
Which means, more rejection of the absolute truths of religion.
SO HOW CAN YOU NOT CONDEMN HER ?
Now, you're just being obtuse. This whole damn thing started when the lunatic fringe of your Pædophile Protection Racket went bonkers sending threats of violence and death to Webster Cook after Bill Donohue issued a fatwa against him. The line that "Mr. Donohue doesn't work for the Catholic Church" is just bullshit. It's like saying "Richard Kuklinski doesn't work for the Mafia": it might be technically true, but Donohue does the Vatican's dirty work in the US and they don't seek to distance themselves from his fatwas.
PZ even publically offered on a Catholic radio show to return all crackers if the Church issued a statement saying "Bill Donahue doesn't speak for us" and they didn't. Shows how much they really value the Blessed Sacrament, eh?
Wowbagger ,
My guess is that the pope doesn't take internet fights nearly serious enough. Internets, serious business.
That or he realizes making any statement on the matter will just help prove the point at hand. Clever former nazi...
@ #789 "Some Christ hating Muslim..."
What the hell is it with you christians thinking that all muslims do is undermine your sky-fairy and explode when insulted? It really is getting quite old. Come on god-fetishers, get rid of that chip (or cracker) on your shoulder and make up a real argument.
"In the last days they shall come with mocking....
May Jesus Christ, Who so humbles Himself to become our manna, have mercy on your soul. He is the King of mercy.
Pride goeth before the fall."
It's always the "last days" with you people. It's been the last days since, what, two thousand years ago?
May the force be with you, as well. I goeth before E, except after C.
"Pride goeth before the fall."
April showers bring May flowers.
If PZ is the milkman, I am the Walrus.
Koo Koo Ka Chu.
Next week, only 2 quarts - and keep your cankerous lips off of my heavy cream!!
MikiTracy,
I'll ask you directly: if this is such a horrendous act that is offensive to catholics, why hasn't the pope said anything about it?
Hahaha, oh man... the South Park with Bill Donohue is on.
"It's saying stupid things like that that made Jesus want to put a rabbit in charge."
"All this torturing and ninjas... it just doesn't seem very Christian."
@Benjamin Franklin
I make a serious point and all you can do is mock. Such is the life of a cynic. All of you are cynics. Far easier to bash down the sandcastle than to build up a fortress from shaky ground.
OK, one last attempt to break through to you. Suppose you were a milkman with rotting teeth and cankerous lips. Before delivering each milk bottle you would take a swig and place it on the doorstep. You continued to abuse you privileged access to other people's milk for years.
Posted by: Pete Rooke | July 23, 2008 9:51 PM
Please tell me Rooke is a Satire Troll. No one could be that serious about "cankerous lips" and books covered in human skin.
"I make a serious point and all you can do is mock. Such is the life of a cynic. All of you are cynics. Far easier to bash down the sandcastle than to build up a fortress from shaky ground."
A fortress made of someone's dead grandmother and wearing a mini-skirt, no doubt.
Mayflowers bring pilgrims.
May the heart of Jesus, in the Most Blessed Sacrament, be praised, adored, and loved with grateful affection, at every moment, in all the tabernacles of the world, even to the end of time.
Amen.
"They have become foolish by their own knowledge."
The "scriptures" can be summed up as saying "Do as we say, think as we do or else you are evil and will be punished."
Actually, there was a better summation written by Huxley in the novel Island. The quote is in reference to what one of the characters thought of Xtianity. It went thusly: "If you don't believe that the blood of my redeemer was shed for your salvation, then I'll drown you in your own." This, to me, captures the spirit of true Xtianity. And Islam is right there in the same spirit.
Fr. J @ 573, and others:
My girlfriend and I (both atheists) have worked in hospices and other volunteer positions, for no other reason than we wanted to help people.....
co - Well aren't you and your little atheist girlfriend the most compassionate of atheists and oh my what a list?? Most of them support the slaughter of human babies and morals that lead to death. Oh the pride of man, he would be like unto God? Don't even try.
#784-
First, I think we need to dispense with this nonsense that PZ has treaded on anyone's Constitutional freedom. The First Amendment ensures that the government will not pass any laws restricting the free exercise of religion or establish an official state church.
OK, PZ is clear so far.
As far as desecrating the eucharist wafer goes, this is highly unlikely to result in criminal prosecution (and I don't profess any specific knowledge of the law in this area). The state will not likely waste resources bringing PZ to justice for damaging consecrated wafer. I think that's a highly safe wager.
So, that does away with the pseudo-legal arguments put forward by the Christian posters.
Next, I think we should stress that we DO in fact respect peoples' rights to worship in their holy places. It's a red herring to feign fear of persecution or disruption. But we're not responsible for what their members do with the wafer nor are we obligated to respect transubstantiation.
Finally, I think we skeptics all need to come together and really demand that the Christians validate their views in a sensible way. They're the ones flooding this board with outrage. None of them to date has put forward any decent evidence for their perspective regarding the eucharist. I'm tired of them getting away with spending all the time on meta-complaints. Stop indulging them. Demand evidence for their beliefs continuously until the cognitive dissonance becomes too much for them to handle.
Apparently a large number of people still believe that story. While waiting in line in a store I made the mistake of getting into a conversation with a Christian wacko. She said Darwin threw out evolution on his death bed. I said that was a myth. When I mentioned I'm an atheist, she asked 'What happened to you', as if something terrible happened that made me not believe in sky fairies.
Faith is a gift. The gift of faith is beautiful and should be cherished.
Our Lord and Savior present in the Holy Eucharist is truly a gift from heaven for those who believe. Without belief, without faith how empty are we? These wrongs don't make a right. Have we become a society to test everything? How far will all this go?
Were all those martyrs, saints and our blessed mother suffering from psychosis or delusions of grandeur? Again this is a question of faith -faith and love that goes beyond our known logic and scope of the universe. Have we become so arrogant and foolish to think we have all the answers - to seek out the truth with compassion and respect and not to fall into the darkness of disrespect, arrogance and pride.
To seek out the truth, the way and the light through our Lord - the Holy Eucharist (assumption: consecrated host) that you desecrated is holy communion for the world - it's not a social experiment. There are other ways and methods to find faith without a desecration event.
We're more than just flesh - we're creatures of God with an energy soul yearning to seek out knowledge and love while on this earth, albeit a short time, let's use that energy to support and help each other in our communities, our neighborhoods and our families - is it more important to offend and cause separation? Do these wrongs really improve our well being while on this planet?
To everyone that has written in this blog I challenge each of you to open your hearts and look within your communities and sincerely look, find the homeless, the hungry and those seeking help - reach out with a helping hand instead of a hurtful fist.
With the utmost respect to all,
-P.S. Don't be afraid to love our Lord Jesus Christ.
Pete Rooke - since it's one of your analogies, I'm guessing the sandcastle has dungeons, ankle-deep in blood, in which naked women are having their nipples chewed off by weasels whipped into a frenzy by syphillitic circus clowns.
Or has the nice nurse finally persuaded you to take your meds, you sick fuck?
Only if you sliced off her labia to make book covers because they were visible under her miniskirt.
Convulsive fits of laughter.
PS: This thread is a suitable place, I think, to thank my mother for not raising me Catholic and for not naming me Marie like every woman in every previous generation of my family.
Thank you for not threatening to pray for us.
Tim Wyciskalla #792,
No. PZ started this in defence of a Catholic kid who has been subject to a relentless witch-hunt, including violence and death-threats, and disciplinary actions in his secular life, after a fatwa was issued against him by Bill Donohue of the lunatic fringe of the Catholic church. His "offence" was a minor religious faux pas in a college church service.
That's the background. Bone up on it before you call PZ an attention whore: he has plenty of attention already and I'm sure this is not the kind he wants.
Looks like free food night at the Catholic church and all the shopping cart people checked in.
Later, this is getting too weird.
P.S. Don't be afraid to love our Lord Jesus Christ.
Posted by: Rob
But you guys out there, it better not be that sicko homo love. For Jesus Christ is the ultimate straight man.
@772: "This professor is a sad little man. I will pray for him, but he is one real low life. If they were in fact consecrated hosts, then they were in fact stolen property."
How should PZ have determined whether the hosts were consecreted or not?
@789: "Sometimes monkeys actually make more sense!"
I'll take that as a compliment.
By the way, for all of the folks accusing PZ of being an "attention whore" and deliberately trying to offend as many people as possible: if that's so, then why hasn't he been spamming Catholic blogs and websites with his promise to be mean to a cracker? Where are the press releases?
Comedy Central just played the "Fantastic Easter Special" episode of South Park with Bill Donahue. LMAO
@#789 "Some Christ hating Muslim..."
Actually Islam holds Jesus in very high regard.
"Far easier to bash down the sandcastle than to build up a fortress from shaky ground."
Your serious point was totally missed by using a completely obscure (near wacky) comparison. You're getting a cynical response because your milkman story came across as satire.
I even get the point you were trying to make, how I came away with it out of milkmen with poor dental habits is beyond me. I still disagree and submit this cynic response.
Yes, knocking over sandcastles is easier then building a military installation on unstable terrain. Work smarter, not harder...
"But you guys out there, it better not be that sicko homo love. For Jesus Christ is the ultimate straight man"
I dunno. He hung out with twelve dudes all the time and you know how those early Christians were; always getting stoned.
It seems I am not the only one who got a few giggles from South Park this evening....
You, on the other hand, have become foolish by the knowledge of bronze-age desert goatherds promulgated by child-rape facilitators in purple frocks. That's so much better.
"Catholics, if PZ's actions are so offensive to all those who hold your faith, why hasn't the pope said anything?"
Because he has far better things to do.
This is just like the question, "If Hitler was so evil, why didn't Pope Pius XII excommunicate him?" Two reasons:
1. According to Canon Law, Adolf Hitler had already excommunicated himself; a Writ would have been superfluous and served no real purpose other than to give Hitler more media time....
2. Adolf Hitler was a sociopath--anathemizing him would not have any impact on a man who's own actions already demonstrated him to be blindingly absent of a conscience....
Similar rule of thumb applies here:
1. Little Paul is not Catholic (and, therefore, not under obedience) and his actions have actuially served to strengthen, no stymie, Catholics in their Faith and the need to stand up for it--he has not succeeded by any stretch to cause us to doubt the Truth of which we know, believe and testify. Therefore, he's created a paradox for *himself*, nothing more.
2. His actions are ignorant and self-serving--the Holy Father isn't going to bother shining a light on some third-rate, self-preening hack trying to make a name for himself in the sad, amd little world of heathens.
3. Just like one cannot reason with a sociopath, one finds similar problems with self-aggrandizing, self-promoting narcissists. Addreesing Little Paul's actions in any offical medium would be to give him what he desperately wants- validity. Why waste the time? The Holy Father has bigger fish to fry.
Thanks Rob. After reading your wise words, I'm going to throw out reality and praise Jebus.
Not really.
Faith is a mental illness. The gift of faith is child abuse, the worst possible kind of child abuse. Faith should be ridiculed.
Faith means believing in idiotic impossible things that have no evidence. Faith is for gullible morons who are too lazy to think.
Raven,
I suspect the inmates clients at the St Augustine's Asylum for Extra-Wacky Papists have barricaded themselves in the room with the internet-connected PC and are taking turns - one types while the other five or six block the nurses trying to get in and give them their meds.
Ooga-booga! Jesus, come save me! Ooga-booga!
"Because he has far better things to do. "
No, he doesn't.
Rob,
Ugh, your post nearly made me throw up. Faith is not a gift, it's a curse. Reason beats faith every day of the week. You can justify any absurd proposition if throw out the need for evidence.
One can lead a perfectly happy, productive, pleasant life without believing in first century myth. And even if one couldn't, God would still be a fantasy.
I dunno. He hung out with twelve dudes all the time and you know how those early Christians were; always getting stoned.
Posted by: OctoberMermaid
Well, the women were there to clean the men's feet with their hair. At least when Jesus was not indulging in his foot fetish.
Get your facts straight before you go blabbing.
Posted by: Miki Tracy | July 23, 2008 10:16 PM
You mean like Glen Beck and Limbaugh?
Oh the irony.
You took the Mormon bait hook, line and sinker. Leave it to Catholics to think another ridiculous religion full of rules and stupidities is inferior to theirs.
Like I said, you are hilarious.
You should be able to watch that South Park episode on Comedy Central or the Comedy Network (Canada).
SDG:
You wrote:" ...to physically attack the Eucharist..."
This seems to be the disconnect. If you don't recognize that the eucharist is symbolic, then we have reached a stalemate.
Most of us don't hate anyone because they believe in a religion. We would not go out of our way to disrupt a religious service. Many of us regularly give to charities, but funnily enough, many people will refuse help if they know it comes from an atheist or atheist organization, so we donate through Goodwill, United Way, Red Cross. I donate clothes to Catholic Charities. I have no problem with theists in general. Malicious, twisted pious assholes, now they merit my full contempt.
A wafer out of the church is just a wafer. That may be hard to accept, but it has no magical properties.
Please join me in praying for this Professor and his family and all those posting here who do not believe, do not adore, and do not love God. These people esp. this Professor need our prayers. They do not know realize what they are doing!!
I especially recommend praying the rosary for this Professor's conversion.
****************************************************
My God, I believe, I adore, I hope and I love you. I ask forgiveness for those who do not adore, do not hope, and do not love you.
Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I adore you profoundly. I offer you the most precious body, blood, soul, and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifference with which he is offended. Through the infinite merits of his most Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg of you the conversion of poor sinners.
O my Jesus, I offer all my personal sacrifices, pains and suffers, and penances up for love of you, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for sins committed against the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
Miki Tracy has said many things tonight. Far and away the most revealing are "Little Paul".
Peter Rooke and SDG,
You are wasting your time trying to convince us PZ did anything wrong. You never intelligently discuss the shoddy treatment of Webster Cook, which started this whole crackergate affair, and keep trying to have us give the cracker status it does not deserve. You appear to be willing to say anything in defense of your cracker, even bearing false witness, which IIRC is a mortal sin. We have had over 13000 posts to get ready for your feeble arguments. Any attempt to try to assert bad behavior on the part of atheists or PZ will have the bad behavior turned back to your church. You have fought the good fight, but it is now time to retire from this blog, taking Fr. J with you.
I should mention it's in Season 11. Watching it now... hehe
VitusIII
You feel crapulent and crapulous?
What kind of holy water have you been drinking?
#842
Hey, didn't your friend Jesus have something to say about praying in public? You know, in the New Testament? Mentioned something about doing it in private and not for show like a douchebag?
Yeah. Might wanna look into that.
Oh, and the bits about idolatry. I assume that applies to crackers, too. Hell, it's all crackers to me.
"Most of them support the slaughter of human babies and morals that lead to death.
Morals that lead to death? As opposed to all those other morals that stop death in its tracks? Everyone dies, sorry. Some of us may have a better time on the way to the end but we're all headed that way. I might not live beyond 50 and I'm fine with that.
As for human babies, yeah I do support abortion, even the late term ones.
What's really crazy is that I think clubbing baby seals is terrible, yet I'm OK with abortion. Wacky stuff!
A prayer
Posted by: MT
Oh, I get it. M T. Empty.
Yup. The words were empty of meaning.
Paul@732,
Funny, what I'd heard about Voltaire's death-bed was that a priest was brought against his wishes, and urged him to renounce the devil. Voltaire is said to have replied:
"This is no time to make new enemies."
http://www.saidwhat.co.uk/quotes/deathbed/
I wouldn't be confident of this version, any more than of yours. Voltaire, of course, was a deist not an atheist.
It's interesting psychologically that "death-bed conversions" are so popular among Christian propagandists. Why do they think that, even if such conversions occur, they should be considered an argument for theism? If a person I respect for their intellectual or moral qualities had one opinion about the nature of the world when well, and another when dying, why should this influence me towards the latter? Suppose a famous astrophysicist, long involved in developing theories of planetary formation, were to announce on his deathbed that he had changed his mind and now thought Velikovsky had been right all along. Would we not conclude that his mind had been adversely affected, as quite often happens with the dying?
I think the real reason for the trope's popularity, however, is that many theists find it difficult or impossible to believe that anyone could go through life, and particularly through dying, without the comfort that those theists find in their illusions. It is hard to deny the evidence that atheists can live happy, useful and successful lives, so they console themselves with the "deathbed conversion" narrative.
Even higher in most polls. However to me this shows that the majority of catholics are sensible not like the members on this thread.
Were all those martyrs, saints and our blessed mother suffering from psychosis or delusions of grandeur?
Posted by: Rob | July 23, 2008 10:27 PM
In a word... yes. Or at the very least those who deified them.
How can you say what you just said, and not be in therapy? Or be oblivious to that fact you need to be? IT'S A MOTHERFUCKING CRACKER! Get over it.
The list was produced in response to the claim that atheists did no charity, made by a Catholic waxing lyrical on the fictional good works of a sag-titted old fraud.
Unlike the Catholic church, which promotes bigotry, policies that kill millions, and facilitates child-rape on an international scale, a truly disgusting mafia, based on the immoral scrawlings of bronze-age goatherds and their evil, bloodthirsty god.
Condescending prick.
Rob@#819
Skepticism is the real gift. Faith is more like a disease.
Sadly, all those martyrs and saints almost certainly were delusional.
PS. Don't be afraid to doubt.
Vitus III @#816:
My girlfriend and I (both atheists) have worked in hospices and other volunteer positions, for no other reason than we wanted to help people.....
Vitus, in all sincerity, my hat's off to your and your girlfriend. If you'd accept it, I'd say "God bless you." I have nothing but respect for anyone who works in hospice.
Damnit, these comment thread are long! I shudder to think how long tomorrow's will be!
I wager that the other symbol Myers "desecrated" had something to do with atheism or maybe "pastaferianism", just to show that we, unlike the religious, have a sense of humour
It's interesting. Something intentionally hateful is done against not one, but two faiths as a way to say something about secular humanism. Reading the comments on this thread the comments seem to indicate that you're a hateful bunch. How is that going to evangelize others for secular humanism?
My friends, no one is laughing. This is just a symptom of a deeper problem, that's all. Know that there are many people throughout our world tonight who operate not from a position of hate, but of love, for they know the source of that love: Jesus, who is God. His love will provide the missing balance, the search for truth you seek. All is forgiven.
Peace, my friends, peace.
Please join me in praying for this Professor and his family and all those posting here who do not believe, do not adore, and do not love God. These people esp. this Professor need our prayers. They do not know realize what they are doing!!
I especially recommend praying the rosary for this Professor's conversion.
****************************************************
My God, I believe, I adore, I hope and I love you. I ask forgiveness for those who do not adore, do not hope, and do not love you.
Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I adore you profoundly. I offer you the most precious body, blood, soul, and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifference with which he is offended. Through the infinite merits of his most Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg of you the conversion of poor sinners.
O my Jesus, I offer all my personal sacrifices, pains and suffers, and penances up for love of you, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for sins committed against the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
MT,
Why are you wasting your time with a prayer on an atheist's blog. You must be delusional. The chances of PZ becoming religious is worse than you winning tomorrow's lottery which you didn't buy a ticket for. Keep your prayer for church or the closet of your soul, as Jesus commanded.
Emmet Caulfield @#802:
Emmet, you're funny.
Donohue literally is not a blip on the Vatican's radar. They don't "distance" themselves from him like they don't "distance" themselves from every crazy lunatic-fringe left-wing pro-abortion women's-ordination "Catholic" organization... that's not what the Vatican does. You just don't have a clue how the Church works.
And your "Pædophile Protection Racket" ranting suggests you aren't open to serious discussion. You just want to rail.
Yes, I think I'm the one who mentioned first mentioned that in this combox. Funny, how he said he wouldn't be tempted to hold the Eucharist hostage, and then started floating ransom demands...
As I understand it, the demand regarding denouncing Donohue went beyond saying "he doesn't speak for us," and also there were other stipulations attached to the ransom demands, including denouncing those suggesting that PZ should be fired if he went through with it.
Damnit, these comment thread are long! I shudder to think how long tomorrow's will be!
I wager that the other symbol Myers "desecrated" had something to do with atheism or maybe "pastaferianism", just to show that we, unlike the religious, have a sense of humour
"It's interesting. Something intentionally hateful is done against not one, but two faiths as a way to say something about secular humanism. Reading the comments on this thread the comments seem to indicate that you're a hateful bunch. How is that going to evangelize others for secular humanism?"
Nobody's hating or evangalizing. You're just projecting, I think.
And it's not hateful to criticize an idea. Neither is it bigotry. Ideas are not beyond reproach or above criticism. If they're weak or ridiculous, they will be ridiculed as such.
If your God really were in the cracker and he really were poewrful, he wouldn't need you coming here and whining about how atheists are so gosh darn mean, golly gee whiz.
MT,
Prayer is simply wishing for things to happen. Not a very effective way to make your desires come true.
The gift of faith is beautiful and should be cherished.
Faith is not a good thing. It is what encourages you to turn off your bullshit detector and accept stupid doctrines like transubstantiation just because the church says to. And it IS a stupid doctrine. I don't see any need to qualify that statement with "I think" or "I feel" or "I deeply believe", it's stupid, and not in an innocent, harmless sort of way. You don't need to be an atheist to realize it either. Worshipping wafers is idolatry.
An other prayer
Posted by: MT
One prayer is enough, you MT headed person. Do it again and you are merely a spammer.
one finds similar problems with self-aggrandizing, self-promoting narcissists
It's kinda weird when you start referring to yourself in the third person like that, Miki.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
III. THE EUCHARIST IN THE ECONOMY OF SALVATION
The signs of bread and wine
1333 At the heart of the Eucharistic celebration are the bread and wine that, by the words of Christ and the invocation of the Holy Spirit, become Christ's Body and Blood. Faithful to the Lord's command the Church continues to do, in his memory and until his glorious return, what he did on the eve of his Passion: "He took bread. . . ." "He took the cup filled with wine. . . ." The signs of bread and wine become, in a way surpassing understanding, the Body and Blood of Christ; they continue also to signify the goodness of creation. Thus in the Offertory we give thanks to the Creator for bread and wine, fruit of the "work of human hands," but above all as "fruit of the earth" and "of the vine" - gifts of the Creator. The Church sees in the gesture of the king-priest Melchizedek, who "brought out bread and wine," a prefiguring of her own offering.
1334 In the Old Covenant bread and wine were offered in sacrifice among the first fruits of the earth as a sign of grateful acknowledgment to the Creator. But they also received a new significance in the context of the Exodus: the unleavened bread that Israel eats every year at Passover commemorates the haste of the departure that liberated them from Egypt; the remembrance of the manna in the desert will always recall to Israel that it lives by the bread of the Word of God; their daily bread is the fruit of the promised land, the pledge of God's faithfulness to his promises. The "cup of blessing" at the end of the Jewish Passover meal adds to the festive joy of wine an eschatological dimension: the messianic expectation of the rebuilding of Jerusalem. When Jesus instituted the Eucharist, he gave a new and definitive meaning to the blessing of the bread and the cup.
1335 The miracles of the multiplication of the loaves, when the Lord says the blessing, breaks and distributes the loaves through his disciples to feed the multitude, prefigure the superabundance of this unique bread of his Eucharist. The sign of water turned into wine at Cana already announces the Hour of Jesus' glorification. It makes manifest the fulfillment of the wedding feast in the Father's kingdom, where the faithful will drink the new wine that has become the Blood of Christ.
1336 The first announcement of the Eucharist divided the disciples, just as the announcement of the Passion scandalized them: "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" The Eucharist and the Cross are stumbling blocks. It is the same mystery and it never ceases to be an occasion of division. "Will you also go away?": the Lord's question echoes through the ages, as a loving invitation to discover that only he has "the words of eternal life" and that to receive in faith the gift of his Eucharist is to receive the Lord himself.
The institution of the Eucharist
1337 The Lord, having loved those who were his own, loved them to the end. Knowing that the hour had come to leave this world and return to the Father, in the course of a meal he washed their feet and gave them the commandment of love. In order to leave them a pledge of this love, in order never to depart from his own and to make them sharers in his Passover, he instituted the Eucharist as the memorial of his death and Resurrection, and commanded his apostles to celebrate it until his return; "thereby he constituted them priests of the New Testament."
1338 The three synoptic Gospels and St. Paul have handed on to us the account of the institution of the Eucharist; St. John, for his part, reports the words of Jesus in the synagogue of Capernaum that prepare for the institution of the Eucharist: Christ calls himself the bread of life, come down from heaven.
1339 Jesus chose the time of Passover to fulfill what he had announced at Capernaum: giving his disciples his Body and his Blood:
1340 By celebrating the Last Supper with his apostles in the course of the Passover meal, Jesus gave the Jewish Passover its definitive meaning. Jesus' passing over to his father by his death and Resurrection, the new Passover, is anticipated in the Supper and celebrated in the Eucharist, which fulfills the Jewish Passover and anticipates the final Passover of the Church in the glory of the kingdom.
This is simply false. 100% so. But it's a nice argument dodge.
There. Fixed.
MT wrote:
Ah, yet more proof that prayer doesn't work.
What, what? $777 for wearing a stupid pendant and putting a picture on your desk for a year? OK, I'm in. How do I get my moneys?
Did you guys know that the student's friend is being threatened now? linky Webster Cook was going to show him the host-cracker because the friend was interested in catholicism, but the friend did nothing but sit there. Bet you he's not going to convert now...
And also, people used to souvenir hosts. They'd put them in little frames with prayers, and hang them on the wall - a wafer from someone's wedding of first communion. I guess that's out of fashion now.
MAJeff @#762:
No. I'm shallow enough to believe that the Church sincerely advocates loving and respecting everyone, including persons with same-sex attraction and who engage in homosexual acts.
Please join me in praying for this Professor and his family and all those posting here who do not believe, do not adore, and do not love God. These people esp. this Professor need our prayers. They do not know realize what they are doing!!
I especially recommend praying the rosary for this Professor's conversion.
****************************************************
My God, I believe, I adore, I hope and I love you. I ask forgiveness for those who do not adore, do not hope, and do not love you.
Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I adore you profoundly. I offer you the most precious body, blood, soul, and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifference with which he is offended. Through the infinite merits of his most Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg of you the conversion of poor sinners.
O my Jesus, I offer all my personal sacrifices, pains and suffers, and penances up for love of you, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for sins committed against the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
oopsie, that's a wafer from someone's wedding OR first communion. They're not usually simultaneous.
I need to get some sleep. I hope to write to all of you tomorrow by which time I have a feeling that Prof. Myers may have reneged on his stated Eucharist desecration and subsequent publication. I have left four analogies for you to mull over and I hope to win over some converts, at least in this tiny battle.
Miki:
1. I call bullshit. Calling the act of excommunicating Hitler "superfluous" is another way of saying "Pope Pius XII was too chickenshit to take a stand for the right cause." Perhaps because the Holy Roman Catholic Church actually admired the sick fuck..?
2. Again, bullshit. "Anathemizing" Hitler may not have done a lot to Hitler personally, but it could have been a HUGE influence on the millions of Catholics that instead became indifferent or even helpful to the Nazis in their quest to wipe out "the Jewish menace."
The Catholic apologetics get lamer and lamer as this thread grows...and this from a former Catholic. So bite me.
Margaret. Nice word dump in support of a cracker. But it does nothing to make me respect your ritual act of cannibalism.
MikiTracy,
How would you be able to tell the difference between the Pope choosing not to give PZ the oxygen of recognition and the Pope not giving a crap about something so patently stupid even by the low standards of a religion based on irrationality?
What do you have a spiritual leader for if not for this exact situation?
If what PZ's done is so bad - and you and your ilk keep coming here and reminding us that, according to them, it is very, very bad - surely the pope has a duty to reassure the faithful that things are going to be fine and they need not fret.
St. Josemaria Escriva "On the Feast of Corpus Christi"
150 Today, on the feast of Corpus Christi, we come together to consider the depths of our Lord's love for us, which has led him to stay with us, hidden under the appearances of the blessed Sacrament. It almost seems as if we can physically hear him teaching the multitude: "A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they had not much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched; and since they had no root they withered away. Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. Other seeds fell on good soil and brought forth grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."
It is a vivid scene. The divine sower is also sowing his seed today. The work of salvation is still going on, and our Lord wants us to share that work. He wants Christians to open to his love all the paths of the earth. He invites us to spread the divine message, by both teaching and example, to the farthest corners of the earth. He asks us, as citizens of both ecclesial and civil society, to be other Christs by fulfilling our duties conscientiously, sanctifying our everyday work and the responsibilities of our particular walk of life.
If we look around, if we take a look at the world, which we love because it is God's handiwork, we will find that the parable holds true. The word of Jesus Christ is fruitful, it stirs many souls to dedication and fidelity. The life and conduct of those who serve God have changed history. Even many of those who do not know our Lord are motivated, perhaps unconsciously, by ideals which derive from Christianity.
We can also see that some of the seed falls on barren ground or among thorns and thistles; some hearts close themselves to the light of faith. Ideals of peace, reconciliation and brotherhood are widely accepted and proclaimed, but all too often the facts belie them. Some people are futilely bent on smothering God's voice. To drown it out they use brute force or a method which is more subtle but perhaps more cruel because it drugs the spirit, indifference.
151 When thinking about all this, I should like us to take stock of our mission as Christians. Let's turn our eyes to the holy Eucharist, toward Jesus. He is here with us, he has made us a part of himself: "Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it." God has decided to stay in the tabernacle to nourish us, strengthen us, make us divine and give effectiveness to our work and efforts. Jesus is at one and the same time the sower, the seed and the final result of the sowing: the bread of eternal life.
The miracle of the holy Eucharist is being continually renewed and it has all Jesus' personal traits. Perfect God and perfect man, Lord of heaven and earth, he offers himself to us as nourishment in the most natural and ordinary way. Love has been awaiting us for almost two thousand years. That's a long time and yet it's not, for when you are in love time flies.
I remember a lovely poem, one of the songs collected by Alfonso X the Wise. It's a legend about a simple monk who begged our Lady to let him see heaven, even if only for a moment. Our Lady granted him his wish and the good monk found himself in paradise. When he returned, he could not recognize the monastery -- his prayer, which he had thought very short, lasted three centuries. Three centuries are nothing to a person in love. That's how I explain Christ waiting in the Eucharist It is God waiting for us, God who loves man, who searches us out, who loves us just as we are -- limited, selfish, inconstant, but capable of discovering his infinite affection and of giving ourselves fully to him.
Motivated by his own love and by his desire to teach us to love, Jesus came on earth and has stayed with us in the Eucharist. "Having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end": that's how St John begins his account of what happened on the eve of the passover when Jesus "took bread and after he had given thanks, broke it, and said, This is my body which is given up for you. Do this in remembrance of me. In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying: This is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."
152 It is the simple and solemn moment of the establishment of the new alliance. Jesus dissolves the old economy of the law and reveals to us that he himself will be the content of our prayer and life. Just look at the joy which invades today's liturgy: "Let the anthem be clear and strong and full of joy." It is a great christian celebration which sings about a new era: "The old pasch is by the new replaced; the substance hath the shadow chased and rising day dispels the night."
This is a miracle of love. "This is truly the bread for God's children." Jesus, the first son of the eternal Father, offers us himself as food. And the same Jesus is waiting to receive us in heaven as "his guests, his co-heirs and his fellows," for "those who are nourished by Christ will die the earthly death of time, but they will live eternally because Christ is life everlasting."
Eternal happiness begins now for the Christian who is comforted with the definitive manna of the Eucharist. The old life has gone forever. Let us leave everything behind us so that everything will be new, "our hearts, our words and our actions."
This is the Good News. News, because it speaks to us of a deep love which we never could have dreamed of. Good, because there is nothing better than uniting ourselves to God, the greatest Good of all. It is Good News, because in an inexplicable way it gives us a foretaste of heaven.
153 Jesus hides in the blessed Sacrament of the altar because he wants us to dare to approach him. He wants to nourish us so we become one single thing with him. When he said, "Apart from me you can do nothing," he was not condemning Christians to ineffectiveness or obliging them to seek him by a difficult and arduous route. On the contrary. He has stayed here with us, he is totally available to us.
When we meet together around the altar to celebrate the holy sacrifice of the Mass, when we contemplate the sacred host in the monstrance or adore it hidden in the tabernacle, our faith should be strengthened; we should reflect on this new life which we are receiving and be moved by God's affection and tenderness.
"They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of the bread and the prayers." That is how the Scriptures describe the life of the early Christians. They were brought together by the faith of the Apostles in perfect unity, to share in the Eucharist and to pray with one mind. Faith, bread, word.
In the Eucharist Jesus gives us a sure pledge of his presence in our souls; of his power, which supports the whole world; of his promises of salvation, which will help the human family to dwell forever in the house in heaven when time comes to an end. There we shall find God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit: the Blessed Trinity, the one and only God. Our whole faith is brought into play when we believe in Jesus, really present under the appearances of bread and wine.
154 I cannot see how anyone could live as a Christian and not feel the need for the constant friendship of Jesus in the word and in the bread, in prayer and in the Eucharist. And I easily understand the ways in which successive generations of faithful have expressed their love for the Eucharist, both with public devotions making profession of the faith and with silent, simple practices in the peace of a church or the intimacy of their hearts.
The important thing is that we should love the Mass and make it the centre of our day. If we attend Mass well, surely we are likely to think about our Lord during the rest of the day, wanting to be always in his presence, ready to work as he worked and love as he loved. And so we learn to thank our Lord for his kindness in not limiting his presence to the time of the sacrifice of the altar. He has decided to stay with us in the host which is reserved in the tabernacle.
For me the tabernacle has always been a Bethany, a quiet and pleasant place where Christ resides. A place where we can tell him about our worries, our sufferings, our desires, our joys, with the same sort of simplicity and naturalness as Martha, Mary and Lazarus. That is why I rejoice when I stumble upon a church in town or in the country; it's another tabernacle, another opportunity for the soul to escape and join in intention our Lord in the Sacrament.
155 When our Lord instituted the Eucharist during the last supper, night had already fallen. This indicated, according to St John Chrysostom, that "the times had run their course." The world had fallen into darkness, for the old rites, the old signs of God's infinite mercy to mankind, were going to be brought to fulfilment. The way was opening to a new dawn -- the new passover. The Eucharist was instituted during that night, preparing in advance for the morning of the resurrection.
We too have to prepare for this new dawn. Everything harmful, worn out or useless has to be thrown away -- discouragement, suspicion, sadness, cowardice. The holy Eucharist gives the sons of God a divine newness and we must respond "in the newness of your mind," renewing all our feelings and actions. We have been given a new principle of energy, strong new roots grafted onto our Lord. We must not return to the old leaven, for now we have the bread which lasts forever.
156 On this feast of Corpus Christi in cities and towns throughout the world, Christians accompany our Lord in procession. Hidden in the host he moves through the streets and squares -- just as during his earthly life -- going to meet those who want to see him, making himself available to those who are not looking for him. And so, once more, he comes among his own people. How are we to respond to this call of his?
The external signs of love should come from the heart and find expression in the testimony of a christian life. If we have been renewed by receiving our Lord's body, we should show it. Let us pray that our thoughts be sincere, full of peace, self-giving and service. Let us pray that we be true and clear in what we say -- the right thing at the right time -- so as to console and help and especially bring God's light to others. Let us pray that our actions be consistent and effective and right, so that they give off "the good fragrance of Christ," evoking his way of doing things.
The Corpus Christi procession makes Christ present in towns and cities throughout the world. But his presence cannot be limited to just one day, a noise you hear and then forget. It should remind us that we have to discover our Lord in our ordinary everyday activity. Side by side with this solemn procession, there is the simple, silent procession of the ordinary life of each Christian. He is a man among men, who by good fortune has received the faith and the divine commission to act so that he renews the message of our Lord on earth. We are not without defects; we make mistakes and commit sins. But God is with us and we must make ourselves ready to be used by him, so that he can continue to walk among men.
Let us ask our Lord then to make us souls devoted to the blessed Eucharist, so that our relationship with him brings forth joy and serenity and a desire for justice. In this way we will make it easier for others to recognize Christ; we will put Christ at the centre of all human activities. And Jesus' promise will be fulfilled: "I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
157 Jesus, as we were saying, is the sower, and he goes about his task by means of us Christians. Christ presses the grain in his wounded hands, soaks it in his blood, cleans it, purifies it, and throws it into the furrows, into the world. He plants the seeds one by one so that each Christian in his own setting can bear witness to the fruitfulness of the death and resurrection of the Lord.
If we are in Christ's hands, we should absorb his saving blood and let ourselves be cast on the wind. We should accept our life as God wants it. And we should be convinced that the seed must be buried and die if it is to be fruitful. Then the shoots start to appear, and the grain. And from the grain, bread is made which is changed by God into the body of Christ. In this way we once more become united with Jesus, our sower. "Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread."
We should always remember that if there is no sowing there is no harvest. That is why we need to sow the word of God generously, to make Christ known to men so that they hunger for him. Corpus Christi -- the feast of the bread of life -- is a good opportunity to reflect on the hunger which people suffer: hunger for truth, for justice, for unity and for peace. To meet the hunger for peace we have to repeat what St Paul said: Christ is our peace, pax nostra. The desire for truth should remind us that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Those who aspire to unity should be shown Christ who prays that we will all be consummati in unum: "made perfectly one." Hunger for justice should lead us to the original source of harmony among mankind: the fact that we are, and know ourselves to be, sons of the Father, brothers.
Peace, truth, unity, justice. How difficult it often seems to eliminate the barriers to human harmony! And yet we Christians are called to bring about that miracle of brotherhood. We must work so that everyone with God's grace can live in a christian way, "bearing one another's burdens," keeping the commandment of love which is the bond of perfection and the essence of the law.
158 We cannot deny that a great deal remains to be done. On one occasion, when he was looking perhaps at the swaying wheatfields, Jesus said to his disciples: "The harvest is plentiful, but the labourers are few; pray therefore the Lord of the harvest to send out labourers into his harvest." Now, as then, labourers are needed to bear "the burden of the day and the scorching heat." And if we, the labourers, are not faithful, there will come to pass what was described by the prophet Joel: "The fields are laid waste, the ground mourns; because the grain is destroyed, the wine fails, the oil languishes. Be confounded, o tillers of the soil, wail, o vinedressers, for the wheat and the barley, because the harvest of the field has perished."
There is no harvest if we are not ready for constant, generous work, which can be long and tiring: ploughing the land, sowing the seed, weeding the fields, reaping and threshing... The kingdom of God is fashioned in history, in time. Our Lord has entrusted this task to us, and no one can feel exempt. Today, as we adore Christ in the Eucharist, let us remember that the time has not yet come for resting. The day's work must go on.
It is written in the book of Proverbs: "He who tills his land will have plenty of bread." Let us apply this passage to our spiritual life. If we do not work God's land, are not faithful to the divine mission of giving ourselves to others, helping them recognize Christ, we will find it very difficult to understand what the eucharistic bread is. No one values something which does not cost an effort. In order to value and love the holy Eucharist, we must follow Jesus' way. We must be grain; we must die to ourselves and rise full of life and give an abundant yield: a hundredfold!
Christ's way can be summed up in one word: love. If we are to love, we must have a big heart and share the concerns of those around us. We must be able to forgive and understand; we must sacrifice ourselves, with Jesus Christ, for all souls. If we love Christ's heart, we shall learn to serve others and we shall defend the truth clearly, lovingly. If we are to love in this way, we need to root out of our individual lives everything which is an obstacle to Christ's life in us: attachment to our own comfort, the temptation to selfishness, the tendency to be the centre of everything. Only by reproducing in ourselves the word of Christ can we transmit it to others. Only by experiencing the death of the grain of wheat can we work in the heart of the world, transforming it from within, making it fruitful.
159 We may sometimes be tempted to think that this is very nice but an impossible dream. I have spoken to you about renewing your faith and your hope. Let us not get used to the miracles which are happening before our eyes, especially the wonderful fact that our Lord comes down each day into the priest's hands. Jesus wants us to remain wide awake, so that we are convinced of his power and can hear once more his promise: "Follow me and I will make you become fishers of men"; you will be effective and attract souls to God. We should therefore trust our Lord's words: get into the boat, take the oars, hoist the sails and launch out into this sea of the world which Christ gives us as an inheritance. "Put out into the deep and let down your nets for a catch."
The apostolic zeal which Christ has put in our hearts must not be diminished or extinguished by a false humility. Maybe we experience the dead weight of our personal failings, but our Lord takes into account our mistakes. In his merciful gaze he realizes that we are creatures with limitations, weaknesses and imperfections, that we are inclined to sin. But he tells us to fight, to acknowledge our weaknesses, not to be afraid, but to repent and foster a desire to improve.
We must also remember that we are only instruments. "What is Apollo? What is Paul? They are servants who brought the faith to you. Even the different ways in which they brought it were assigned to them by the Lord. I did the planting, Apollo the watering, but God gave the growth." The teaching, the message which we have to communicate, has in its own right an infinite effectiveness which comes not from us, but from Christ. It is God himself who is bent on bringing about salvation, on redeeming the world.
160 We must, then, have faith and not be dispirited. We must not be stopped by any kind of human calculation. To overcome the obstacles we have to throw ourselves into the task so that the very effort we make will open up new paths. Personal holiness, giving oneself to God, is the one cure which overcomes any difficulty.
Being holy means living exactly as our Father in heaven wants us to live. You will say that it is difficult. It is. The ideal is a very high one. And yet it is also easy. It is within our reach. When a person becomes ill, there may be no appropriate medicine. But in supernatural affairs, it is not like that. The medicine is always at hand. It is Jesus Christ, present in the holy Eucharist, and he also gives us his grace in the other sacraments which he established.
Let us say again, in word and in action: "Lord, I trust in you; your ordinary providence, your help each day, is all I need." We do not have to ask God to perform great miracles. Rather, we have to beg him to increase our faith, to enlighten our intellect and strengthen our will. Jesus always stays by our side and is always himself.
Ever since I began to preach, I have warned people against a certain mistaken sense of holiness. Don't be afraid to know your real self. That's right, you are made of clay. Don't be worried. For you and I are sons of God -- and that is the right way of being made divine. We are chosen by a divine calling from all eternity: "The Father chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him." We belong especially to God, we are his instruments in spite of our great personal shortcomings. And we will be effective if we do not lose this awareness of our own weakness. Our temptations give us the measure of our own weakness.
If you feel depressed when you experience, perhaps in a very vivid way, your own pettiness, then is the time to abandon yourself completely and obediently into God's hands. There is a story about a beggar meeting Alexander the Great and asking him for alms. Alexander stopped and instructed that the man be given the government of five cities. The beggar, totally confused and taken aback, exclaimed: "I didn't ask for that much." And Alexander replied: "You asked like the man you are: I give like the man I am."
Even in moments when we see our limitations clearly, we can and should look at God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, and realize that we share in God's own life. There is never reason to look back. The Lord is at our side. We have to be faithful and loyal; we have to face up to our obligations and we will find in Jesus the love and the stimulus we need to understand other people's faults and overcome our own. In this way even depression -- yours, mine, anyone's -- can also be a pillar for the kingdom of Christ.
Let us recognize our infirmity but confess the power of God. The christian life has to be shot through with optimism, joy and the strong conviction that our Lord wishes to make use of us. If we feel part of the Church, if we see ourselves sustained by the rock of Peter and by the action of the Holy Spirit, we will decide to fulfil the little duty of every moment. We will sow a little each day, and the granaries will overflow.
161 We must finish these minutes of prayer. Savouring in the intimacy of your soul the infinite goodness of God, realize that Christ is going to make himself really present in the host, with his body, his blood, his soul and his divinity. Adore him reverently, devoutly; renew in his presence the sincere offerings of your love. Don't be afraid to tell him that you love him. Thank him for giving you this daily proof of his tender mercy, and encourage yourself to go to communion in a spirit of trust. I am awed by this mystery of Love. Here is the Lord seeking to use my heart as a throne, committed never to leave me, provided I don't run away.
Comforted by Christ's presence and nourished by his body, we will be faithful during our life on earth and then we will be victors with Jesus and his Mother in heaven. "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?... Thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."
"I need to get some sleep. I hope to write to all of you tomorrow by which time I have a feeling that Prof. Myers may have reneged on his stated Eucharist desecration and subsequent publication. I have left four analogies for you to mull over and I hope to win over some converts, at least in this tiny battle"
Hope in one hand, shit in the other, buddy.
This is nuts. I can't wait to see how many comments tomorrow's post gets.
I hope, for Razi's sake, that Jesus doesn't show up -- you know what that fucker does when he gets his hands on a couple of fish -- poor Razi will be so busy frying that he won't have any time left to protect child-molesters.
Are you the Antichrist disguised as a "scientist"? - Jan
No, I'm a scientist disguised as the "Antichrist"!
#819 from Rob: Faith is a gift. The gift of faith is beautiful and should be cherished.
Most likely Rob went to a Catholic grammar school like I did. He was told, several times a day, for several years, to have faith. The idea that faith is a virtue was drilled into his brain relentlessly. Also repeated every single day, several times a day, was "Christ died for your sins." After 8 years of Catholic grammar school, a Catholic child has heard "Christ died for your sins" about 10,000 times. The Catholics are experts at the fine art of brainwashing.
The Catholic visitors to this blog do not have what it takes to recover from this child abuse. Most of them are harmless. Some of them, like Fr. J, have become world-class assholes. All of them can look forward to a wasted worthless life.
MT, you are an empty headed spammer. You are no better then those spammer who link to porn sites. I hope you are proud of holding those ethics.
Schmuck!
Unfortunately this accomplishes nothing, persuades nobody, and does nothing to help us non-religious folk.
What's with all these godbots. Since when does prayer work in text form?
http://www.bash.org/?779288
Mayer, today maybe your day but you are not going to live forever, where do you think your soul will go after you die ?
Go and read those websites of testimonies of those who have seen Heaven and Hell.
Repent man, before it is too late for your soul.
When you desecrate the Host you offend God more than the Catholics in the world. For we know each of us has to answer for what we do in this world.
Now you are young and healthy, so you are so self righteous and arrogant. Even greats like John Lennon has to leave this world too. Do you think you can live forever ?.
Damn, Margaret, you are one L337 CopyPastin' beyotch.
The Golden Arrow
May the most holy, most sacred, most adorable, most mysterious and unutterable Name Of God be always praised, blessed, loved, adored and glorified in heaven, on earth and under the earth, by all the creatures of God, and by the Sacred Heart of Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar. Amen.
Yeah! Margaret is spamming with more of her cannibal porn.
St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in the day of battle; be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do thou, O prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, cast into hell Satan and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen. - Vitus III
Shorter Vitus III: Fuck you.
wildlifer @ #853:
How can you say what you just said, and not be in therapy?
The psychological term for what you are feeling is "cognitive dissonance." Why don't you continue to ponder that amazing conundrum, while I continue my happy and well-adjusted life.
Mat jusoh #889--
No one can honestly say they know what happens after death. If you claim to know, you're just flat out guessing. We atheists recognize the current limitation of human knowledge and are humble about it.
Margaret (#880), nobody is going to read your spam. Why don't you go annoy somebody else.
"You mean like Glen Beck and Limbaugh?
Oh the irony.
"You took the Mormon bait hook, line and sinker. Leave it to Catholics to think another ridiculous religion full of rules and stupidities is inferior to theirs.
"Like I said, you are hilarious."
It's stunningly amazing to me that someone who considers himself to be so intellectually superior can be so easily whomped on the side of the head by simple sarcasm. Geez, buddy, you really are a dolt, aren't you? And you call yourself rational....
But you made me smile, mayhem, stepping in that pile, so it was worth it!
Time to say my prayers to the BIG White Father in the Sky and go nite-nite. I'll say a prayer for all of you lame-brains whilst I'm at it. Sweet dreams of oblivion....
Posted by: Margaret | July 23, 2008 10:51 PM
Thank you for sharing Margaret.
Now please go do your Christian masturbation in somewhere else.
I've been looking into this site which is supposed to be a science blog - what a juvenile joke! It's more like personal cult with PZ as the grand poobah. What a freakin' circus!
PZ speaks and each of his liggers mindlessly parrots his tripe, perhaps hoping to get attention. Free thinkers, indeed. You sheep checked your brain at the front page. Morons.
#760 - DingoDave - I try never to call a person a goddist by mistake a second time, with all good grace.
Usually, a gentleman accepts a lady's apology without a 'Don't do it again'. But it may be different in your country. :)
Actually, Margaret's and MT's gurglings would be kinda cool to recite disemvoweled.
I need to get some sleep... I have left four analogies for you to mull over...
And dude, they were awesome. Inspired, even. A bit weird, okay, but y'know, someone's gotta push those boundaries. Is it even art otherwise?
I mean, I'm pretty sure Mapplethorpe woulda approved. And that's enough for me, I guess.
Does faith make people stupid, or do stupid people have faith?
Damn. I have to give Peter Rooke a little bit of credit. At least he was not engaging in cut and paste inanity. Congratulations are in order to MT, Margaret and Vitus III for making a fuckwit like Peter Rooke look good.
Vitus III:
You can get a generic equivalent at WalMart that's much cheaper and just as ineffective.
Janine ID:
I beg your pardon? That's highly offensive! It's wholewheat zombie cannibal porn, I'll have you know!
SCREEEEEEEEEECHHHHH monkeys, SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECHHHHHHHHH
PZ Myers and the Screech Monkeys. (could be the name of an 80s band)
The atheist on here are pathetically ignorant of history, theology, philosophy and basic human relations....
P.S. - did you know the normal posters on science blogs call PZ cultists/extremists like your pathetic selves "screech monkeys?"
Yes, it appears that I've struck a sensitive cord with many of my fellow colleagues (take a deep breath everyone). As a biologist the foolishness of doubt, not having faith (in the case of the doubting Thomas) was also reframed. Thanks for solidying my assumptions this evening.
P.S. Don't be afraid to believe.
@ #856:
Sincere thanks, but you fail reading comprehension (perhaps because Vitus (at #816) failed to italicize or blockquote my original post). My girlfriend and I are athetst, and your god can bless us all you want, but it means nothing.
Vitus was being an asshole (no matter how useful and attractive those can be, I still use the word as an epithet).
I've been looking into this site which is supposed to be a science blog -
Posted by: Jonesy | July 23, 2008 11:00 PM
I'm sure Jonesy must be a follower of many peer reviewed science blogs.
I'm just sayin'...
The meme equivalent of an evolutionary arms race I'm sure.
Oh, Emmet! You are now getting nitpicky. But at least we agree that it is cannibal porn. It is a start.
I'm a recovering Wisconsin Synod Lutheran and as off the wall as I think they are, I don't think they're as crazy as some of these Catholics.
My question is what happens to the blood of Christ that is spilled on the floor during communion? When Christ's blood comes in contact with floor cleaners and rug shampoos, is there a big puff of smoke?
No, you are NOT allowed to say they use a holy handi-wipe! (h/t to whoever used that as an answer on a different thread)
Jack,
LOL. As usual, you religious types never have any good evidence for your claims, just stupid ad hominems.
Rob,
Isn't your P.S. the tag line of the new X-Files movie?
Pete Rooke, sick fuck, wrote:
Yeah, good luck. Unfortunately for you, atheists are rarely (if ever) converted by the violent, stomach-churning rape and necrophilia fantasies of a deluded, semi-coherent zombie freak with serious misogyny issues.
Here's a hint - if we were into that sort of thing those of us who were christians would have stayed that way, and those us who aren't would have signed up long ago.
Keep jerking off to your snuff films and pretending it's Jesus' hand doing the work.
Pete Rooke @ #810 says all I can do is mock.
This entire affair is nothing if it not mockable. Hell yes, I will continue to mock such foolishness. When Jesus said "I am the bread of life", do you really think he meant that literally?
Did he tranform himself into a wafer for Catholics to live? Or a loaf of Wonder Bread for the Protestants, or a nice, fresh, loaf of rye bread for our Jewish brothers with a healthy portion of corned beef (except on Fridays, of course!)?
Similarly, at the last supper, when he said "Do this in rememberance of me", maybe, just maybe he wanted people to simply remember his life and teachings?
The whole concept of the eucharist was cooked up by a bunch of old men and it became another ritual in a religion full of other silly rituals.
So, mock I must - mock, mock, mock, mock!
PZ I listened to your radio interview on Catholic Radio, and you said, "if there is a God, then prove it"...Well, Nick Gotts gave you a challenge... why not take it?
And in regards for quantifiable evidence... how about all the documented medical miracles at Lourdes, France...and several other Catholic shrines such as Debaupre and St. Joseph's oratory in Quebece, Our Lady of Chestahova(I know my spelling is off) in Poland?
The incorruptible bodies of several saints?...
God has revealed himself in quantifiable ways throughout history,.. but take the Catholic Challenge...I guarantee the Grace of God will reveal itself slowly to you..
You said Love is quantifiable, I think you may find the Grace and peace you feel from this as quantifiable as well...
Fr Joe, I appreciate your courage in defending our faith...This is a direct assault on our freedom of religion, and a slippery slope towards religious persecution. If we don't feel safety in disseminating the eucharist in our churches, we will feel the need to practice the sacrifice of the mass covertly...(just like they have had to do in Communist regimes)
Surely this is not what the founding fathers wanted for our country.
PZ, I am sorry that you recieved hateful emails, there are good and bad people from every denomination or creed..however, that does not mean that you have the right to retaliate against all of us by desecrating somthing that is sacred to our religion, and I can't even imagine how the descecration of the Koran wil be received.
I will pray for you, because God still loves you and doesn't give up on anyone... you see that is the whole meaning behind that Eucharist..For God so loved the world that he gave his only son...
I'd like to think you know not what you have done right now, but take the Catholic Challenge, and I think it will be revealed to you... as will God's unending Mercy.
Lastly, I would like to point out that the Catholic church is the biggest Charitable organization in the world, Go to any remote area of the world with poverty, and chances are you will find some type of Catholic relief organization..
@ co, #909,
Apparently I fail spelling. Sorry 'bout that.
Jesus Christ, Margaret, STFU. You're obviously unhinged and manic. I see you at home now, fat, bloated, middle-aged, tending the cold, bitter coals of a wasted life, clutching a rosary, hormonal and neglected, with a threadbare scapula threaded in and out of the folds of your neck fat, and all you can do is rage against people on the internet, people far away from you, doing things that you vaguely understand to be displeasing to yourself.
It's funny how worked up you people get over statements that, as far as you know, have no correspondence with reality. Did PZ really desecrate a sanctified host? You have no way of knowing. None. Did I really go receive communion this weekend, surreptitiously spit it out into my hand, and later that day, at home, work it into a foam which I used while masturbating to pictures of the virgin Mary? Well did I? And if I did, how do you propose to know that I did? And if I didn't, how wanton and wasteful is it for you to exert your energies bemoaning the fact that someone could work the consecrated host into a creamy soothing lather suitable for using as a personal lubricant?
You Catholics don't need faith, you need snopes.
Yep, big X-Files fan, but an even bigger fan of our Lord.
Adolf Hitler was a sociopath--anathemizing him would not have any impact on a man who's own actions already demonstrated him to be blindingly absent of a conscience....
Hitler was too busy to personally work all the ovens and round people up. Who helped him? Good christians, most of them - some of whom might have listened had their oh-so-moral ('we got our morality from god kthxbai') church leaders spoken up. Too bad they were busy shouting "heil!" instead. The SS was not an atheist organization. Hitler talked constantly about jebus and god - even if he was a sociopath just using those words to manipulate the manipulation worked because Hitler's followers were religion-addled.
The whole "Hitler was an atheist" "no he wasn't!" argument is stupid. Hitler was such a pussy he personally didn't do any of the killing. It was good christians (and a specially raised unit of balkan muslims) who did the killing.
I really hate this whole episode because it distracts from what we should be debating--the liabilities of faith-based thinking. - The Adamant Atheist
Those liabilities are being graphically demonstrated by those coming here to plead or threaten for the life of a cracker. Quite likely, more rational Catholics, who half-realise what nonsense it all is, are noticing and being provoked to think about their habits of belief. And if not - you've surely savored some of the fine specimens of idiocy, pomposity and self-righteousness which our Catholic visitors have been kind enough to deposit on this thread? I know I have!
NOOES dun kill the crackzs..it has special powers :(
[i]I've been looking into this site which is supposed to be a science blog -
Posted by: Jonesy | July 23, 2008 11:00 PM
I'm sure Jonesy must be a follower of many peer reviewed science blogs.
I'm just sayin'...[/i]
Actually, pissant, I do research and publish it in peer reviewed journals (yeah, the uality ones). You? I thought not. Baaaa.
Fuck off Jonesy.
Like someone sent here from the Catholic League is gonna have a clue what goes on here or what we think.
Rob (#908), I was going to give you the benefit of a doubt and assume you're just a harmless moron. Now I realize you're a stupid asshole. Please take your Catholic Magic elsewhere.
I'm curious as to which science blogs you frequent?
Ah yes, extolling the virtues of faith by using terms which lend it no more credibility than calling a dog pissing on a hydrant 'a beautiful gift of art that should be cherished.' Your spooky language is not evidence that faith is in fact a gift, beautiful or should be cherished, merely an assertion. It is evidence that that is what you believe the act of faith is, but believing doesn't make it so.
Another assertion with more spooky language and no reason to believe it came from anything other than an idea in the distant past that consuming magic crackers lead to some imbuing of specialness to the believers.
Not very. I do several amazing things daily without faith or belief. More spooky language and a threat that lack of faith makes us empty... again this is a premise with no justification in the real worl; there is nothing to show that lacking faith in your gods leaves anyone 'empty'.
Oh, what, since your opinions and beliefs are so fulfilling and unempty they must never be scrutinized. Got it. Well tough titty, I say, and yes let us test everything. You admonish those that do not bother to test the claims because to do so would be the end of the organization and the end of belief. And of course belief is touted as being magical (which you did during your introduction) and anyone without belief is, well, doomed. So the safety-net is in place, keeping you on the trapeze doing every kind of mental leaps and twists so you can hold on to that belief and never miss the bar. Just stop reaching out for the bar and let yourself fall to the earth and realize it is more firm than you give it credit.
The people exalting the saints have much of the credit. Whatever the saints did in life the tales of their feats were surely rewritten and amplified by the throngs of believers willing to lap it up.
Nothing strikes me as more arrogant than you proclaiming your own ignorance is indicative of all people sharing in it.
This makes no sense to me. No one is finding that tiresome word, faith, in this experiment. What we are finding, however, is that people don't like cracker abuse. PZ is doing it because it's just a cracker. What it means to you is irrelevant. There is no desecration going on, or abuse, or bigotry. Your belief that it is more than just a cracker is insane in light of the fact that magical spooky words have no power to change reality... Or do they?! Oh, no they still don't.
Yes yes, the sum is greater than the whole, blah blah, soul, blah blah offend... You offend me by expecting me to cherish YOUR beliefs that a cracker is anything but a cracker. You offend me by stating you are offended by this. STOP OFFENDING ME!
That's a good sentiment, and I wish this was the only thing you said because I'd have not had to reply at length.
Only if you stop being afraid of scrutinizing your beliefs. Oh, I don't think you're afraid really, just as I know I'm not afraid of loving another man (no homo). What you're really saying is that only a coward doesn't have the balls to love your god. That's a very macho challenge and I'm sure it gets lots of converts a la the "My god's dick is bigger than your god's dick" type of inanity.
Rob, #908, wrote:
Rob, are you that ignorant of scripture? Or is it logic you're lacking?
If Jesus were to appear next to me, right now, and ask me to touch his wounds, I'd believe in him without any qualms or hesitation.
Thomas's doubts were cast aside when he had evidence that allowed him to do so - and that's all we want, too.
So, where's Jesus? My hands are ready. Heck, they're even a bit cold; i could use the warmth.
To all the other nonbelievers here:
In this whole circus I haven't heard one rational argument presented for belief in transubstantiation. Did I miss one?
#429: "Act of Reparation to the Most Blessed Sacrament
With that most profound respect
which divine Faith inspires,
O my God and Saviour Jesus Christ,
true God and true man,
I adore Thee,
and with my whole heart I love Thee,
hidden in the most august Sacrament of the Altar,
in reparation of all the irreverences,
profanations, and sacrileges, that I,
to my shame, may have until now committed,
as also for all those
that have been committed against Thee,
or that may be ever committed for the time to come."
First, I think that post should be disemvoweled jsut for shits and giggles.
Secondly if this Act of Reparation has ever worked in the past, then the bolding should be license for perpetual desecration...
Thanks for playing
The atheist are? Are he? You, it would seem, are pathetically ignorant of grammar and typography (pet peeve: an ellipsis has three dots). You'll find historians, philosophers, and communications experts here. Admittedly, you'll find few theologians, but then theology is complete bollocks, like leprechology: you don't need to know much about leprechauns to know that studying their properties is just bullshit.
lori #917-
You must make up your mind. Do you have evidence for the Christian god's existence, or do you take it on faith? If there were ample evidence for god's existence, obviously we atheists would helplessly believe in him just as we believe in the moon or helium. But there isn't. You cited some craptastic "miracles" that have absolutely never passed scientific scrutiny, period.
What about the amputees? Why does god only heal people who might have been healed anyway? Have you ever considered that god doesn't exist and you're desperately looking for evidence, however weak, to back up your wavering religious faith? Miracles aren't limited to Christianity. Just about every religion has claimed them. They've never withstood controlled tests.
You should really stop deluding yourself.
It's been real, but I gotta move along. Try not to miss me. :-) And for Pete's sake-- why do you care what I post anyway? Why even bother to respond if you're so Bright and all?
St. John Chrysostom
Homily 47 on the Gospel of John
John 6:53-54
Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His blood, you have not eternal life in yourselves. Whoso eats My flesh, and drinks My blood, has life in himself.
1. When we converse of spiritual things, let there be nothing secular in our souls, nothing earthy, let all such thoughts retire, and be banished, and let us be entirely given up to the hearing the divine oracles only. For if at the arrival of a king all confusion is driven away, much more when the Spirit speaks with us do we need great stillness, great awe. And worthy of awe is that which is said today. How it is so, hear. Verily I say unto you, Except a man eat My flesh, and drink My blood, he has not eternal life in him. Since the Jews had before asserted that this was impossible, He shows not only that it is not impossible, but that it is absolutely necessary. Wherefore He adds, He that eats My flesh and drinks My blood, has eternal life.
And I will raise him up at the last day. For since He had said, He that eats of this bread shall not die for ever John 6:50, not verbally quoted, and it was likely that this would stand in their way, (just as they before said, Abraham is dead, and the prophets are dead; and how sayest Thou, that he shall not taste of death? John 8:52, not verbally quoted) He brings forward the Resurrection to solve the question, and to show that (the man who eats) shall not die at the last. He continually handles the subject of the Mysteries, showing the necessity of the action, and that it must by all means be done.
John 6:55
For My flesh is true meat, and My blood is true drink.
What is that He says? He either desires to declare that this is the true meat which saves the soul, or to assure them concerning what had been said, that they might not suppose the words to be a mere enigma or parable, but might know that it is by all means needful to eat the Body. Then He says,
John 6:56
He that eats My flesh, dwells in Me.
This He said, showing that such an one is blended with Him. Now what follows seems unconnected, unless we enquire into the sense; for, says some one, after saying, He that eats My flesh, dwells in Me, what kind of a consequence is it to add,
John 6:57
As the living Father has sent Me, and I live by the Father.
Yet the words harmonize perfectly. For since He continually spoke of eternal life, to prove this point He introduces the expression, dwells in Me; for if he dwells in Me, and I live, it is plain that he will live also. Then He says, As the living Father has sent Me. This is an expression of comparison and resemblance, and its meaning is of this kind, I live in like manner as the Father lives. And that you may not deem Him unbegotten, He immediately subjoins, by the Father, not by this to show that He needs, in order to live, any power working in Him, for He said before, to remove such a suspicion, As the Father has life in Himself, so has He given to the Son also to have life in Himself; now if He needs the working of another, it will be found that either the Father has not given Him so to have it, and so the assertion is false, or if He has so given it, then He will need no other one to support Him. What then means the, By the Father? He here merely hints at the cause, and what He says is of this kind: As the Father lives, so I live, and he that eats Me shall live by Me. And the life of which He speaks is not life merely, but the excellent life; for that He spoke not simply of life, but of that glorious and ineffable life, is clear from this. For all men live, even unbelievers, and uninitiated, who eat not of that flesh. Do you see that the words relate not to this life, but to that other? And what He says is of this kind: He that eats My flesh, when he dies shall not perish nor suffer punishment; He spoke not of the general resurrection, (for all alike rise again,) but concerning the special, the glorious Resurrection, that which has a reward.
John 6:58
This is that bread which came down from heaven; not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead; he that eats of this bread shall live for ever.
Continually does He handle the same point, so as to imprint it on the understanding of the hearers, (for the teaching on these points was a kind of final teaching,) and to confirm the doctrine of the Resurrection and of eternal life. Wherefore He mentions the Resurrection since He promises eternal life, showing that that life is not now, but after the Resurrection. And whence, says some one, are these things clear? From the Scriptures; to them He everywhere referrs the Jews, bidding them learn these things from them. And by saying, Which gives life to the world, He incites them to jealousy, that from very vexation that others should enjoy the gift, they may not stay without. And continually He reminds them of the manna, showing the difference, (between it and His bread,) and guiding them to the faith; for if He was able to support their life for forty years without harvest, or corn, or other things in course; much more now will He be able to do so, as having come for greater ends. Moreover, if those things were but types, and yet men collected what came down without sweat or labor; much more shall this be the case, where the difference is great both in the never dying, and in the enjoying the true life. And rightly has He spoken often of life, since this is desired by men, and nothing is so pleasing to them as not to die. Since even under the old Covenant, this was the promise, length of life and many days, but now it is not length merely, but life having no end. He desires at the same time to show, that He now revokes the punishment caused by sin, annulling that sentence which condemns to death, and bringing in not life merely, but life eternal, contrariwise to the former things.
John 6:59
These things said He in the synagogue, as He taught in Capernaum.
2. The place where most of His marvels had been done, so that He ought there especially to have been listened to. But wherefore taught He in the synagogue and in the Temple? As well because He desired to catch the greatest number of them, as because He desired to show that He was not opposed to the Father.
John 6:60
But many of the disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is a hard saying.
What means hard? Rough, laborious, troublesome. Yet He said nothing of this kind, for He spoke not of a mode of life, but of doctrines, continually handling the faith which is in Him. What then means, is a hard saying? Is it because it promises life and resurrection? Is it because He said that He came down from heaven? Or that it was impossible for one to be saved who ate not His flesh? Tell me, are these things hard? Who can assert that they are? What then means hard? It means, difficult to be received, transcending their infirmity, having much terror. For they thought that He uttered words too high for His real character, and such as were above Himself. Therefore they said,
Who can hear it?
Perhaps making excuse for themselves, since they were about to start away.
John 6:61-62
When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples murmured at it, (for this is an attribute of His Godhead to bring secret things to light,) He said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if you shall see the Son of Man ascend up where He was before?
This also He does in the case of Nathanael, saying, Because I said unto you, I saw you under the fig-tree, do you believe? You shall see greater things than these. John 1:50 And to Nicodemus, No man has ascended up to heaven but the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13 What then, does He add difficulties to difficulties? No, (that be far from Him,) but by the greatness of the doctrines, and the number of them, He desires to bring them over. For if one had said simply, I have come down from heaven, and added nothing more, he would have been the more likely to offend them; but He who said, My body is the life of the world; He who said, As the living Father has sent Me, so I live by the Father; and who said, I have come down from heaven, solves the difficulty. For the man who utters any one great thing concerning himself may perhaps be suspected of feigning, but he who connects together so many one after another removes all suspicion. All that He does and says is intended to lead them away from the thought, that Joseph was His father. And it was not with a wish to strengthen, but rather to do away that stumbling-block, that He said this. For whosoever deemed that He was Joseph's son could not receive His sayings, while one that was persuaded that He had come down from heaven, and would ascend thither, might more easily give heed to His words: at the same time He brings forward also another explanation, saying,
John 6:63
It is the Spirit that quickens, the flesh profits nothing.
His meaning is, You must hear spiritually what relates to Me, for he who hears carnally is not profited, nor gathers any advantage. It was carnal to question how He came down from heaven, to deem that He was the son of Joseph, to ask, How can he give us His flesh to eat? All this was carnal, when they ought to have understood the matter in a mystical and spiritual sense. But, says some one, how could they understand what the 'eating flesh' might mean? Then it was their duty to wait for the proper time and enquire, and not to abandon Him.
The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life.
That is, they are divine and spiritual, have nothing carnal about them, are not subject to the laws of physical consequence, but are free from any such necessity, are even set above the laws appointed for this world, and have also another and a different meaning. Now as in this passage He said spirit, instead of spiritual, so when He speaks of flesh, He meant not carnal things, but carnally hearing, and alluding at the same time to them, because they ever desired carnal things when they ought to have desired spiritual. For if a man receives them carnally, he profits nothing. What then, is not His flesh, flesh? Most certainly. How then says He, that the flesh profits nothing? He speaks not of His own flesh, (God forbid!) but of those who received His words in a carnal manner. But what is understanding carnally? It is looking merely to what is before our eyes, without imagining anything beyond. This is understanding carnally. But we must not judge thus by sight, but must look into all mysteries with the eyes within. This is seeing spiritually. He that eats not His flesh, and drinks not His blood, has no life in him. How then does the flesh profit nothing, if without it we cannot live? Do you see that the words, the flesh profits nothing, are spoken not of His own flesh, but of carnal hearing?
John 6:64
But there are some of you that believe not.
Again, according to His custom, He adds weight to His words, by foretelling what would come to pass, and by showing that He spoke thus not from desire of honor from them, but because He cared for them. And when He said some, He excepted the disciples. For at first He said, You have both seen Me, and believe not John 6:36; but here, There are some of you that believe not.
For He knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray Him.
John 6:65
And He said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto Me except it were given unto Him from above from My Father.
3. Here the Evangelist intimates to us the voluntary character of the Dispensation, and His endurance of evil. Nor is the, from the beginning, put here without a cause, but that you may be aware of His foreknowledge from the first, and that before the words were uttered, and not after the men had murmured nor after they had been offended, He knew the traitor, but before, which was an attribute of Godhead. Then He added, Except it be given him from above from My Father; thus persuading them to deem God His Father, not Joseph, and showing them that it is no common thing to believe in Him. As though He had said, Unbelievers disturb Me not; trouble Me not, astonish Me not. I know of old before they were created, I know to whom the Father has given to believe; and do thou, when you hear that He has given, imagine not merely an arbitrary distribution, but that if any has rendered himself worthy to receive the gift, he has received it.
John 6:66
From that time many of His disciples went back, and walked no more with Him.
Rightly has the Evangelist said, not that they departed, but that they went back; showing that they cut themselves off from any increase in virtue, and that by separating themselves they lost the faith which they had of old. But this was not the case with the twelve; wherefore He says to them,
John 6:67
Will ye also go away?
Again showing that He needs not their ministry and service, and proving to them that it was not for this that He led them about with Him. For how could He when He used such expressions even to them? But why did He not praise them? why did He not approve them? Both because He preserved the dignity befitting a teacher, and also to show them that they ought rather to be attracted by this mode of dealing. For had He praised them, they might, supposing that they were doing Him a favor, have had some human feeling; but by showing them that He needed not their attendance, He kept them to Him the more. And observe with what prudence He spoke. He said not, Depart ye, (this would have been to thrust them from Him,) but asked them a question, Will ye also go away? the expression of one who would remove all force or compulsion, and who wished not that they should be attached to Him through any sense of shame, but with a sense of favor. By not openly accusing, but gently glancing at them, He shows what is the truly wise course under such circumstances. But we feel differently; with good reason, since we do everything holding fast our own honor, and therefore think that our estate is lowered by the departure of those who attend on us. But He neither flattered nor repulsed them, but asked them a question. Now this was not the act of one despising them, but of one wishing them not to be restrained by force and compulsion: for to remain on such terms is the same as to depart. What then says Peter?
John 6:68-69
To whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Do you see that it was not the words that caused offense, but the heedlessness, and sloth, and wrong-mindedness of the hearers? For even had He not spoken, they would have been offended, and would not have ceased to be ever anxious about bodily food, ever nailed to earth. Besides, the disciples heard at the same time with the others, yet they declared an opinion contrary to theirs, saying, To whom shall we go? An expression indicating much affection, for it shows that their Teacher was more precious to them than anything, than father or mother, or any possessions, and that if they withdrew from Him, they had not then whither to flee. Then lest it should seem that he had said, to whom shall we go? because there were none that would receive them, he straightway added, You have the words of eternal life. For the Jews listened carnally, and with human reasonings, but the disciples spiritually, and committing all to faith. Wherefore Christ said, The words which I have spoken unto you are spirit; that is, do not suppose that the teaching of My words is subject to the rule of material consequences, or to the necessity of created things. Things spiritual are not of this nature, nor endure to submit to the laws of earth. This also Paul declares, saying, Say not in your heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down;) or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) Romans 10:6-7
You have the words of eternal life. These men already admitted the Resurrection, and all the apportionment which shall be there. And observe the brotherly and affectionate man, how he makes answer for all the band. For he said not, I know, but, We know. Or rather, observe how he goes to the very words of his Teacher, not speaking as did the Jews. They said, This is the son of Joseph; but he said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God; and You have the words of eternal life; having perhaps heard Him say, He that believes in Me has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For he showed that he retained all that had been said, by recalling the very words. What then did Christ? He neither praised nor expressed admiration of Peter, though He had elsewhere done so; but what says He?
John 6:70
Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
For since Peter said, We believe, Jesus excepts Judas from the band. In the other place Peter made no mention of the disciples; but when Christ said, Whom say ye that I am? he replied, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God Matthew 16:15; but here, since he said, We believe, Christ with reason admits not Judas into that band. And this He did afar off, and long before the time, to check the wickedness of the traitor, knowing that He should avail nothing, yet doing His own part.
4. And remark His wisdom. He made not the traitor manifest, yet allowed him not to be hidden; that on the one hand he might not lose all shame, and become more contentious; and on the other, that he might not, thinking to be unperceived, work his wicked deed without fear. Therefore by degrees He brings plainer reproofs against him. First, He numbered him too among the others, when He said, There are some of you that believe not, (for that He counted the traitor the Evangelist has declared, saying, For He knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray Him;) but when he yet remained such, He brought against him a more severe rebuke, One of you is a devil, yet made the fear common to them all, wishing to conceal him. And here it is worth while to enquire, why the disciples at this time said nothing, but afterwards were afraid and doubted, looking one upon another, and asking, Lord, is it I? Matthew 26:22, when Peter beckoned to John to find out the traitor, by enquiring of their Teacher which was he. What is the reason? Peter had not yet heard, Get behind me, Satan, wherefore he had no fear at all; but when he had been rebuked, and though he spoke through strong affection, instead of being approved of, had even been called Satan, he afterwards with reason feared when he heard, One of you shall betray Me. Besides, He says not even now, One of you shall betray Me, but, One of you is a devil; wherefore they understood not what was spoken, but thought that He was only reflecting upon their wickedness.
But wherefore said He, I have chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? It was to show that His teaching was entirely free from flattery. For that they might not think that He would flatter them, because when all had left Him they alone remained, and confessed by Peter that He was the Christ, He leads them away from such a suspicion. And what He says is of this kind. Nothing abashes Me from rebuking the bad; think not that because you have remained I shall choose to flatter you, or that because you have followed Me I shall not rebuke the wicked. For neither does another circumstance abash Me, which is much more powerful than this to abash a teacher. For he that remains affords a proof of his affection, while one that has been chosen by a teacher, being rejected, attaches to him a character for folly among senseless persons. Still neither does this cause Me to refrain from My reproofs. This at least even now the heathen frigidly and senselessly urge against Christ. For God is not wont to make men good by compulsion and force, neither is His election and choice compulsory on those who are called, but persuasive. And that you may learn that the calling compels not, consider how many of these who have been called have come to perdition, so that it is clear that it lies in our own will also to be saved, or to perish.
5. Hearing therefore these things, learn we always to be sober and to watch. For if when he who was reckoned among that holy band, who had enjoyed so great a gift, who had wrought miracles, (for he too was with the others who were sent to raise the dead and to heal lepers,) if when he was seized by the dreadful disease of covetousness, and betrayed his Master, neither the favors, nor the gifts, nor the being with Christ, nor the attendance on Him, nor the washing the feet, nor the sharing His table, nor the bearing the bag, availed him, if these things rather served to help on his punishment, let us also fear lest we ever through covetousness imitate Judas. Thou betrayest not Christ. But when you neglect the poor man wasting with hunger, or perishing with cold, that man draws upon you the same condemnation. When we partake of the Mysteries unworthily, we perish equally with the Christ-slayers. When we plunder, when we oppress those weaker than ourselves, we shall draw down upon us severest punishment. And with reason; for how long shall the love of things present so occupy us, superfluous as they are and unprofitable? since wealth consists in superfluities, in which no advantage is. How long shall we be nailed to vanities? How long shall we not look through and away into heaven, not be sober, not be satiated with these fleeting things of earth, not learn by experience their worthlessness? Let us think of those who before us have been wealthy; are not all those things a dream? are they not a shadow, a flower? are they not a stream which flows by? a story and a tale? Such a man has been rich, and where now is his wealth? It has gone, has perished, but the sins done by reason of it stay by him, and the punishment which is because of the sins. Yea, surely if there were no punishment, if no kingdom were set before us, it were a duty to show regard for those of like descent and family, to respect those who have like feelings with ourselves. But now we feed dogs, and many of us wild asses, and bears, and different beasts, while we care not for a man perishing with hunger; and a thing alien to us is more valued than that which is of our kin, and our own family less honored than creatures which are not so, nor related to us.
Is it a fine thing to build one's self splendid houses, to have many servants, to lie and gaze at a gilded roof? Why then, assuredly, it is superfluous and unprofitable. For other buildings there are, far brighter and more majestic than these; on such we must gladden our eyes, for there is none to hinder us. Will you see the fairest of roofs? At eventide look upon the starred heaven. But, says some one, this roof is not mine. Yet in truth this is more thine than that other. For you it was made, and is common to you and to your brethren; the other is not yours, but theirs who after your death inherit it. The one may do you the greatest service, guiding you by its beauty to its Creator; the other the greatest harm, becoming your greatest accuser at the Day of Judgment, inasmuch as it is covered with gold, while Christ has not even needful raiment. Let us not, I entreat you, be subject to such folly, let us not pursue things which flee away, and flee those which endure; let us not betray our own salvation, but hold fast to our hope of what shall be hereafter; the aged, as certainly knowing that but a little space of life is left us; the young, as well persuaded that what is left is not much. For that day comes so as a thief in the night. Knowing this, let wives exhort their husbands, and husbands admonish their wives; let us teach youths and maidens, and all instruct one another, to care not for present things, but to desire those which are to come, that we may be able also to obtain them; through the grace and loving-kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom and with whom, to the Father and the Holy Ghost be glory, now and ever and world without end. Amen.
I am very sad for what you did and you have to know that you will regret that for the rest of your life. If not here, then after this life. If you do not believe in God I don't care because if you die and there is no God then it is ok but if there is, then you'll certainly regret what you have done to the sacred host. I would try to recommend you to the divine mercy but I certainly would prefer the DIVINE JUSTICE. I am from the Philippines and here we love our faith. During the concert of the Beatles (i am not sure of the year) almost everyone attended and everyone was happy in that concert BUT after their show one of the members of the Beatles said "you see we are even more famous than JESUS CHRIST" and you know what the people did? they started throwing everything to these impious people. Everyone here started to hate them. If you were only in the Philippines and you would say that, We do not know what ALL would do. I hope you die soon so you could see for yourself what you have defiled. ADOREMUS IN AETERNUM SANCTISSIMUM SACRAMENTUM!
YOU WILL SEE HELL WHOEN YOU GO THERE
Yes their charitable work is commendable. Thanks to their work, there are 100,000,000 people who are at risk of AIDS which would otherwise be preventable if the church advocated using a condom. So instead we have barbaric genital mutilation making a comeback in tribal Africa...
But that doesn't change the fact that Catholicism is a nutty belief with many odd characteristics. Charity work doesn't mean that worshipping a cracker is any less crazy. It doesn't mean that there is a God. It doesn't mean that Jesus will forgive all sins, or that sin even exists. It's just saying "look, they do something good" which everyone knows is true. We wouldn't let off a murderer because he helps out at a local soup kitchen. Character flaws are still flaws despite the good traits as well. Same thing applies to any religion.
I've been looking into this site which is supposed to be a science blog - what a juvenile joke! It's more like personal cult with PZ as the grand poobah. What a freakin' circus!
Posted by: Jonesy
Oh Jonesy, you mega moron. If you took ten extra seconds, you could have found this.
It is time for the freakin' circus to vacate your mind so that you may have enough quiet to think.
You are taking the piss, right? Transubstantiation is a patently ridiculous 2nd century fiction based on Platonic understanding of matter that was known to be cobblers by the middle-ages. The only way you can get people to believe it is by brainwashing them from childhood or boiling them in oil. The Child-Rape Facilitation Club is only allowed use one of those techniques nowadays.
#917: This is a direct assault on our freedom of religion, and a slippery slope towards religious persecution.
(rolls eyes) Man, you big babies can milk a persecution complex, can't you? This is just one man who has never been anything other than utterly open about his atheism, mocking a certain belief that anyone who's known him to any agree will have already known he found foolish. There was never a call to persecute Catholics, never a call to deprive you of your right to your hold Mass and all the rest of it. But you'll just lie and lie and lie and lie and lie until the lie is spread so far and wide everyone believes it, won't you? After all, that is how religion works in the first place. Is it not?
Go to any remote area of the world with poverty, and chances are you will find some type of Catholic relief organization..
Like in all those AIDS-ravaged African countries, where they tell everyone not to use condoms?
Thanks but no thanks for the "charity," gang.
Hey, look....PZ suddenly has a video for sale.
Jajaja - what a transparent attention whore! Is he going to do a cameo on Gossip Girls, too???
In any case, goodbye "15 mins" of PZ....
Goodbye career (if you call assistant professorship at a backwood, third-tier school a career) ....
Goodbye fundamentalist atheists (you guys look like a bunch of assholes to a rather large audience out there)....
lori said: "Fr Joe, I appreciate your courage in defending our faith...This is a direct assault on our freedom of religion, and a slippery slope towards religious persecution. If we don't feel safety in disseminating the eucharist in our churches, we will feel the need to practice the sacrifice of the mass covertly"
You are severely deluded if you actually think you will have to flee persecution within the foreseeable future. You are even more deluded if you think that atheists will be the one to bring about that persecution. We could care less about your damn Eucharist, but the fact that you think that you are legally within your rights to call for the heads of those who ingest it improperly will raise our ire. This isn't discrimination, and is not a precursor to persecution. It is your fellows in Christ who hate Catholic rituals in of themselves enough to persecute you for them, we are indifferent to it outside of the Cook/Myers debacle.
Rest assured, if atheists are going to persecute a religious group, it will be as inclusive as possible in applying it. So, sleep tight.
God still loves you and doesn't give up on anyone...
...at least not until they're in hell, and then he lovingly tortures them eternally.
Hey, idiot? Don't you see the inherent contradictions in your own bullshit? Can't you smell the fecal reek? It's right there for all the world to see - you can't blame rationalists for pointing and giggling at your obvious stupidity.
#919
Actually, brandon, SDG has been maintaining for this entire thread that desecration/disruption is a phenomenon that is completely independent of actual observation. Even if nobody on the entire fucking planet is aware that you palmed the cracker/cookie/wafer/eucharist/holyflesh/wtf ever, you have disrupted the service, and are therefore taking a massive explosive diarrhetic shit all over their right to worship as they please.
Don't worry, nobody else gets it, either.
Miki @799
"Dear E.V., isn't Ann Coulter so totally awesome beyond words!!!??? Very funny to listen to, as well."
Yep. That doesn't surprise me in the slightest; I had you pretty solidly pegged for a "Coulter Christian" based on your tone.
Have fun explaining to Jesus why you thought she was a better role model than He was.
Mark Martin screamed:
You claim to be a Christian - have you actually read any parts of the bible that is attributed to Jesus? Or you did just jerk off to the old testament where god was smiting and ordering the israelites to kill?
I didn't think it was possible but they're getting stupider.
Oh no...not The Cracker? You didn't. What vile horrible evil thing did you do to The Cracker?
Couldn't you have tortured a person instead, as that is acceptable to the religious right? No, I imagine that instead you have done something truly evil, against The Cracker.
Martin, you dipshit, the highest rates of infection in Africa are in non-Catholic countries.
Explain that, Einstein.
I guess the "facts" don't matter to militant atheists...or are they just stupid?
Ahh pascal. You bastard, you keep making believers think that it's a coin toss of God's existence...
This is why we work off evidence rather than faith. If we took on board every silly superstition, then reality would be very confusing indeed. Catholics have no more evidence for God than the Mormons do. The Mormons have no more evidence for God than the Hindus do for Brahman. The Hindus have no more evidence for Brahman than the ancient Greeks did for Zeus. From this, almost every religion must be wrong to an extent, and it's likely that Catholicism is just as wrong as any other belief.
Positive claims require positive evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So does anyone have empirical evidence for God? Because it seems that if something that is supposedly all-powerful needs to be taken on faith, then that something probably doesn't exist.
Emmet:
I didn't ask what your opinion of transubstantion was. I asked if I missed a Catholic actually trying to present a cogent argument about the issue as I don't think I heard a single one. Possibly a couple of days ago someone tried to defend it on the grounds of Jesus' supposed words in John but they gave up quickly if I remember right.
Summing this thing up:
1. Wheat wafer = empty calories
2. Then, miracles occur
3. Wheat wafer = empty calories
Hitler was such a pussy he personally didn't do any of the killing. It was good christians (and a specially raised unit of balkan muslims) who did the killing.
Posted by: Marcus Ranum
Well, other than calling Hitler a pussy (A pussy is useful and can be a source of enjoyment. Cannot say the same about Hitler), I agree. Just remember, Himmler was sickened when he viewed an execution. Yet he told his SS followers that they had to be hard.
Dear Sir/Madam,
I wish to complain.
Reviewing the charges possible in the killfile dungeon, I wish to bring the following against Pete Rooke - Godbotting, Insipidity, Stupidity, Trolling and Wanking.
I further charge him with perversion and misogyny.
Please view the posts made by Pete Rooke.
Thank you,
Patricia
Jack,
You wouldn't recognize a fact if it bit you in your superstitious ass. By the way, how does a meek, humble Christian get off calling someone a dipshit? What would Santa Jesus say about that?
I challenge you to defend the morality of the Church's teaching on condom use.
This should be amusing.
Mr Meyers,
Sorry but this Catholic doesn't want to hate or diss you or even get mad with you. Your act just makes me sad. Go ahead and bash me as well. It isn't about me anyway. It is about your relationship with your Spiritual Father and you just don't get it. I am a biologist as well and all I can do for you is be sad about how ignorant you are about God and creation. Darwin was not the genius so many make him out to be and evolution is just a theory. Einstein had it right, for God made it all through light. As we are winding down to the last days, your act is just part of the final stream of deceptions (Satan plays you for a fool). In the end you will be dealing with your Lord and Maker and only then will you figure out how badly you misjudged Him. He still loves you and wishes for you to see His hand in all of this. But you mock Him instead. So you will have to deal with Him (not me or any other Christian) in the end. It was, is and always will be about you and Him. I can only say, from one biologist to another...you have really missed the mark this time. You can diss me all you like. I don't have anything to say but that I am sad to see what you have done and why. Hatred is not a real Christian thing and those who label Christians with it don't really get who is a real Christian. Hatred is from the Prince of liars. Love is from the Lord. He still loves you (even as you mock Him). Sad to see this whole circus you use to stroke your ego. Sad indeed. May the Lord shed some real discernment down upon you.
all the documented medical miracles at Lourdes, France...and several other Catholic shrines such as Debaupre and St. Joseph's oratory in Quebece, Our Lady of Chestahova(I know my spelling is off) in Poland?
The incorruptible bodies of several saints?...
Spontaneous remission and miraculous cures are not the same thing, dumbass. There are no "documented medical miracles" at Lourdes. There's a lot of anecdotal just-so stories. Also, all of history's amputees would like to know why God is willing to occasionally cure some mild maladies, while completely neglecting the less than optimally limbed community.
Incorruptible bodies of saints? Horseshit. Just as the shroud of Turin is horseshit. There are relics of several Popes floating around out there who apparently had more than one head while living - some with many, many arms. Yet, these Shiva-Popes and their awesome physiques go completely undocumented in the historical record. Why is that? How did a spontaneous and complete reverential silence about their awesome yet grotesque frames arise? Or is it instead evidence of a massively fraudulent trade in relics during what was, we hope, a more gullible time. Even disregarding the fact that most relics were borne of a thoroughly fraudulent trade, the claim of an incorruptible corpse requires incorruptible evidence, evidence that no church to my knowledge has ever allowed science to investigate, except, as we learned from the tumult surrounding the Shroud, when they can be 100% assured that the findings will be amenable to their claims.
The fact is, whatever you name is, people have disproved all of these so called empirical arguments for the existence of god over and over and over again. It's boring. Go to talk origins and check out their list of busted arguments used by Creationists. Same difference. People rarely respond arguments about moisture canopies or moon dust accumulation, and they rarely respond to claims of miracles, because, and can you follow me here, these claims have been trounced over and over and over and over and over again throughout history. If scientists seem unwilling to trot down these same game trails over and over again, it's because it's boring, and it's located in the mental province of stupidity. You, in fact, are a stupid person making stupid arguments. And that's why people treat you, and others who make arguments and claims like yours, like stupid people, because you are, in fact, a stupid person/people.
If I seem to be repeating myself, please forgive me. I'm trying to frame all of this in such a way that a truly stupid person, such as yourself, can understand.
Asylum Seeker writes:
You are severely deluded if you actually think you will have to flee persecution within the foreseeable future.
Um, better be careful. They might consider having people laugh at their foolishness to be "persecution" Kind of a commedia-da-fe, if you will.
They won't have to flee it, if they've got the stones they can stand there while everyone has a good giggle. And there won't be any lions or waterboarding or ovens, just merriment at their expense. I admit, my ego'd be crushed.
In the immortal words of Sam Kinison, "the lord must have wanted to you to look like a total ass..."
Boo fucking hoo.
Nope, not for a second. We'll have forgotten about it entirely in a week.
No such thing.
Pascal's Wager? How lame. What if the god is Wotan or Zeus? I'm sure he won't give a flying fuck.
I would recommend to you a little cannabis or alcohol, light bondage with a compliant slut (of your gender of preference), and a blow-job. I am from Ireland and here it's fuckin' magic!
Margaret (#934): I gotta move along.
Good riddance. I usually only say this to priests, and never to ladies. But because of your massive spam I have to make an exception for you. Go fuck yourself asshole.
The catholics on this thread make it obvious why the Protestant reformation was necessary.
I'm happy to informm you sir, that some of the greatest apologists (thats "defenders" for you who might think otherwise) of the Catholic faith, were often times, Her greatest enemies! May you be blessed with a powerfull conversion, when you finally realize what you've done, and how much God loves you in spite of it! Peace and Mercy be yours in abundance through Jesus Christ Our Lord. Amen!
I see, Margaret, that when you're called for your bullshit, it just makes you copy and paste more. Typical. You are pathetic.
Randy, Christians started this whole thing by assaulting and threatening the life of a fellow Christian.
Feel sad about that, instead.
Do you have any empirical evidence to support the existence of that metaphysical entity?
You do realise Einstein was an atheist right?
One last thing:
First of all, Sir Craig, Pius XII did speak quite publicly, and regularly, against the Nazi scourge during the Shoah; to say he didn't is to ignore history and promulgate a lie (look it up--all of those documents are readily available)--and he personally saved the lives of thousands of Jews, so go get bent, if that's all you've got. Catholic apologetics, my hide.....
Secondly, Wowbagger wrote: "What do you have a spiritual leader for if not for this exact situation?
"If what PZ's done is so bad - and you and your ilk keep coming here and reminding us that, according to them, it is very, very bad - surely the pope has a duty to reassure the faithful that things are going to be fine and they need not fret."
What, exactly, is the purpose, O wise "rational"-ist, of "reassuring" the Faithful in what they already know to be true??? Ever read the last chapter of The Apocalypse??? WE WIN, Bubba. Ergo, there's nothing to fret about. mEnd of story--no reassurances needed.
Have you yet seen any Catholics coming out publicly and saying that they're leaving the Church as a result of Little Paul's stupidity? No. And even Little Paul's alleged "angry Catholic" aggressor has supposedly come on Little Paul's own blog to apologise and make amends (just one of the reasons I'm not believing the story).....
The purpose of the Vicar of Christ is to lead the faithful, not to pander to self-serving morons looking for a photo-op. The Holy Father has no need to intervene in a fiasco created by some nimrod who hasn't managed to have any detrimental effect on the beliefs of the faithful whatsoever.
Now, the day Little Paul or Richie Windbag ever publish a paper saying that they can prove definitively that Christ didn't rise from the dead on the third day, or that GOD cannot possibly exist and physics proves it, then I might expect the Holy Father to turn his monetary attention to some self-important untenured biolagist in Hicksville, MN....But I'm not gonna hold my breath.
Catholics don't need the Holy Father to tell us what's Truth and what's not--the Magisterium has it all laid out from 33AD onwards, no problem.
What you really want to know is, "why won't Benedict acknowledge us, dammit????"
The simple answer is, because authority responding to two-year-old tantrums only reinforces bad behaviour.
And the only reason I'm here is because I'm entertained. Little Paul won't have a job for long if he continues his crap--and that's something I'm just dying to see unfold....I'm also doing some research on Little Paul, although I'm unsure how I'm going to use my findings, at the present.
It's also fun to help swell these comments--Little Paul claims that he hates reading endless posts, but every time one of us delusional Catholics writes something, anything, you so-called "rational" superiors step right in it and answer back.
Here's the first rule of dealing with those you believe are mentally ill: DON't ENGAGE, YOU ONLY ENCOURAGE THEM. One would think that since y'all are so smart, you'd have figured that out by now, but no. You're just so easily lead down the path, and it's so much fun to help that along. Hehehe.....
Prayers, hugs and kisses to all you poor, sad little atheists! Kiss, kiss!
At last the great Frackin' Cracker Fracas of '08 is coming to a climax!
Oh, and Screechy Monkey, you're a bastard! :)
I am not a Catholic, but this whole thing strikes me as incredibly immature, especially for a professor. If you don't believe as the Catholics do, fine, but why do such a mean spirited thing?
I'm glad I didn't have any professors like you...
Just a little more until 1,000.
Let's do it, people!
Trust me, Toots. Jesus could show up and knock on my door, cure my arthritis with a wink of his sparkling blue eyes, give me a good and godly hummer right there on the front porch, and from what I've seen in the quality of character of some of his followers, I'd still tell that piece of Israeli yard-art to take a freakin' hike.
After all, hell would be spending an eternity with you and people like you.
PZ,
Is there a chance you can revive The Cracker? Nurse it back to health? Are you absolutely sure it's dead and/or has been dispossessed?
The comments from the so called atheists are sickening. You live in the west, hence in a society's that understands morality based on judeo-Christian values. That is why we don't go rape young girls after work like they did in rome, we were taught different. By the way, Hitler/Stalin are the logical conclusion of atheism. If there is no greater power then why not do whatever you please to benefit yourself? If I truly did not believe in God I would fail to see what was wrong with killing my enemies, or taking by force that which I desired.
By the way, I wish you no harm PZ, you sick twisted, pathetic little man. I would however worry about the 1.5 billion people are probably are planning to kill you know as we speak. Theo Van Gogh anyone?
AgnoAtheist,
Yeah, I know. That was just to wind up the incipient godbot infection rather than being a real answer. The real answer is "no", but IIRC, we've had the essence/accident bollocks a couple of times, but it hasn't been a major topic in this particular thread that I recall.
And what matters most of all is that it doesn't matter what Einstein believed. It's like some twisted version of Argument from Authority they try to play. Einstein may have gotten several things right, but his insight did not extend past any other man's with regard to the supernatural.
Did anyone else think the tone of the comment is very inconsistent?
tcg,
May you you be 'blessed' with a clue - and some instructions on spelling and/or typing. Thing is, I know my hopes are far more likely to be fulfilled than yours.
I love how the so-called Christians and Catholics on this thread are incapable of any kind of rational discussion, it's all just:
"I'm going to get you!"
and name calling.
Verrry christlike.
John Blowjob:
"If I truly did not believe in God I would fail to see what was wrong with killing my enemies, or taking by force that which I desired."
That's only because you are one sick character. Fortunately, not everyone is. Most people are raised with proper morals as kids, such that they see what is wrong and don't need threats to abstain from doing it.
I call "POE" on 970!
So, harassment and threats of violence and death against the professor are fine and dandy to you, but the second that cracker crumbles, it's all about PZ being mean spirited.
Man.. I hate to break it to you, but your priorities are a little out of whack.
Fellas, I know using the 'P' word is fun - but come on, a coward is a coward. All of you had mothers and came out of one. So please, quit.
#940: Goodbye fundamentalist atheists (you guys look like a bunch of assholes to a rather large audience out there)....
You mean, to the rather large audience of thin-skinned, ill-educated, irrational, scientifically illiterate, hypersensitive, superstitious, delusional overgrown infants who project their own nonsensical practices (like fundamentalism) onto those who don't share their fantasies?
Yes, I suppose we do.
John Blowjob? Are you shitting me? The Christians aren't fielding their A-team tonight.
Hey Mr. Fellatio, millions of atheists manage to make it through each day without committing atrocities. There's nothing about doing the right thing that requires a belief in the utterly stupid. It's called doing the right thing for it's own sake, not because you're afraid. Christianity preaches obedience not morality.
"Ever read the last chapter of The Apocalypse??? WE WIN, Bubba."
I believe that those who do not treat Hot Pockets with respect go to hell and are cast unto the lake of marinara.
Take me seriously, please.
Of course it didn't matter what Einstein believed, the sentence "Einstein had it right, for God made it all through light." seemed very odd given Einstein's religious views.
But still. Got empirical proof of God's existence? That's the real question you should be answering.
Do Miki's nauseating gigglefests remind anyone else of Dolores Umbridge?
Damn, those Catholic prayers are insipid. oooooh, I feel just like Regan with Father Merrin yelling, "The power of Christ compels you!" My head is spinning and I feel the need to vomit. Oh brother!
No wonder the Baptists think the Catholics are looney. It's stupefying that adults can still spout this crap. "Incorruptable corpses of Saints!" (snicker) Amazing that none of the so-called miracles stand up to rigorous testing. I guess if you program a child to believe this crap from infancy you get nominally intelligent people who are unwilling to reject supernatural fantasy and even threaten harm to those immune to the delusion. I guess you believe crucifixes repel vampires and demons. (hint: they're made up too)
Jeff @#966, Please see my comment #823.
I know, the Church is evil because it oppose condoms and same-sex marriage, so that means Catholics forfeit all right to plea for minimal civil respect. SDG
No, but it means the Church has forfeited any right to respect. Beliefs have no right to respect, whoever's they are. As for "minimal civil respect", certainly: no-one is proposing disrupting religious ceremonies, or stealing from churches. Consider - it is only because he has announced it, that you believe PZ Myers has "desecrated the host". Assuming he shows a film tomorrow of him stamping on a wafer, neither you nor I nor the Pope, will know whether or not it had been "consecrated". PZ may not even know. Any outrage is purely of your own confection.
Is there a chance you can revive The Cracker? Nurse it back to health? Are you absolutely sure it's dead and/or has been dispossessed?
Nurse! Defib!...
Clear!
Nope. Still no pulse.
Well... Someone call a priest... I guess... I mean, I'm not sure what the protocol is, here...
I mean, technically, he's already been dead... And he's sorta supposed to be the priest's boss... Or some small part of him. Not sure which part... Sorta looks like maybe it was the big toenail...
Anyway, now that you mention it, we should probably wait three days. Just to be sure.
Well now this explains a lot, straight from the front page of Miki-bots blog:
"I don't know why, but in my mind, the Church is a great, big Rennaisance Fair that never ends--complete with rogues and saints and crooked priests, dark enchanted forests and villains hanging like bats in the trees waiting to pounce. When I see myself I am the wild-haired untamable chick with a bad attitude in billowing gold skirts wearing a hairshirt underneath, a giant rosary hanging from my belt and a pretty nasty-looking dagger strapped to my leg underneath it all. Warrior-nun-in-girlie-clothes--that's me."
Alice in Wonderland meets Van Helsing, coming to a church fantasy near you. There any slashfic out there for this?
Great feedback/debate everyone.
One last quote: "Blessed Are Those Who Have Not Seen, Yet Believe"
John 20:19-31
Have a great evening!
Are you talking about a Public school?
Miki@964,
You're being silly. The whole point is to encourage them. You think you're the only one who enjoys a good game?
YOU"RE RIGHT. Micki is DOLORES UMBRIDGE!
Kel, you're attacking one of your own here. I was merely stating that what Einstein believed, one way or another, does not indicate that reality swings in that direction for that sole reason. Atheist or theist, Einstein knew just as much on the subject, perhaps even less, as every other person. His accomplishments, great though they are, do not make him infallible. That's all I was saying.
John Blowjob:
"By the way, Hitler/Stalin are the logical conclusion of atheism."
"Gott Mit Uns" is not at all related to "Got Milk?". And whatever you do DONT check out who created one of the largest instances of governmental faith-based initiatives...and pure church funding.
How come none of the Xians ever answer my question about the spilled blood on the floor at communion? Me thinks they must just look the other way.
Posted by: Prof. Rob (former atheist)
You are such a liar. What did you lose a few brain cells?
Randy writes:
I am a biologist as well and all I can do for you is be sad about how ignorant you are about God and creation.
I see. You're a biologist and you reject the theory of evolution. I don't even need to know the details of your reasoning why, but can you explain what evidence you relied on to establish your theory of "god and creation"?? Presumably it has to be loads better than the evidence for evolution - that you rejected. So I'm sure we'll all just love to hear about it. It's gotta be good, huh? Not just a "feeling" you get or some old book that you read. After all, Darwin's Origin of Species is an old book, too.
So, what's your evidence for "god and creation"? Or are you embargoing publication, you sly dog. Don't want to miss that Nobel?
AgnoAssholist whines:
"Jack,
You wouldn't recognize a fact if it bit you in your superstitious ass. By the way, how does a meek, humble Christian get off calling someone a dipshit?"
HA - what duplicitous, pussy fucks militant atheists are!
If Christians are "meek," atheists attack them as brainwashed, weak etc.; if they stand up for themselves against the fucks on this board, then they say they are "unchristian" and then cry about it.
I don't need to answer your dipshited challenge; those are the facts, Einstein.
You on campus tomorrow?
So stupefying, in fact, that some of 'em even believe it. Not saying that the dogma isn't bonkers, but Catholic superstition/lore is particularly fuck nuts: crying/moving/bleeding statues, "perfect" body-parts of saints (if you've ever seen one of these, they're clearly mummified by dessication), Jews torturing hosts and blood spurting out of them, the Titanic sinking because it was built by Protestants, all manner of batshit insanity. Hilarious stuff.
I concur that Blowjob is gotta be a Poe Job!
By the way, I wish you no harm PZ, you sick twisted, pathetic little man. I would however worry about the 1.5 billion people are probably are planning to kill you know as we speak. Theo Van Gogh anyone?
Posted by: John Blowjob
Why do I get the idea you would jizz all over yourself with glee if PZ were to be murdered? You sick twisted, pathetic little man.
Oh sorry Chris. I thought it was that guy again.