On my way to Colorado

It's time to kick ass or chew bubblegum. And PZ's all out of gum...

PZ, are you up against any religious nutjobs, or is this a monologue, with audience participation?

Also, huff some SF6 for that deep satanic voice effect.

I'm going to say exactly what's wrong with the state of science education today

Not enough talk about what "belief" means, no doubt.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7

Isn't that a bad time to give a lecture on science ed.?
The teachers are in school!(Otherwise - I'd send my brother in my stead)!

Have fun and give Jay Cutler a hug for me.

BTW - Matt Damon is my new idol! :-) I loooove him now!

Will you have a video on YouTube, or a transcript/PPT presentation, etc.? Those would be terrific.

Thank you.

I'm going to say exactly what's wrong with the state of science education today, and it's all those weasely suck-ups who make excuses for religious idiocy.

I hope there will be a YouTube video. I would love to hear PZ talk about the worthless weasely suck-ups. The problem is religion and religion needs to be attacked relentlessly. Trying to end the war against science education while not criticizing the god disease doesn't work.

You might want to take a look at this cartoon:

http://exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com/2008/08/evolution-and-indoctrina…

Damn I hope I'm able to make it. (Either your talk or the dark-beer party...)

Remember, tall guy, red hair. :-) We really didn't get to talk much last time. I had to go home before 10:00...

This nonsense appeared in the Guardian today, seems appropriate:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/sep/11/creationism.education

A view into the UK side of the "debate".

I'm going to say exactly what's wrong with the state of science education today, and it's all those weasely suck-ups who make excuses for religious idiocy

Way to go PZ, you asshole, be to the atheist world exactly what you detest the religious are. You and your followers are hypocrites. When shall we expect the formation of the Atheistic Taliban in America.

Gee, PZ, it sounds like you're not just going to talk the talk, but you're also going to stomp the stomp.

Hey! My alma matter, sort of.

Come to the Denver Roller Dolls bout -- we're hosting the Minnesota Rollergirls! (I say "we", though I'm not a skater -- I'm an announcer.)

I noticed Stupidity is on the list of annoyances that can get a person thrown into the Pharyngula killfile dungeon, so maybe Lluraa belongs there.

It's incumbent upon people of integrity and intellectual honesty to rightly expose guff hucksters, quackery peddlers, and charlatans. It makes no difference how sincere people are if their actions harm others.

Tripod, DigiCam, maybe a seperate microphone with a long cable to connect to the cam, play [REC], encode, post on YouTube, embed on this blog and let us all here be witness!
OK?

As one who has been in the public school trenches, I say, "Go get 'em, PZ".

Way to go PZ, you asshole, be to the atheist world exactly what you detest the religious are. You and your followers are hypocrites. When shall we expect the formation of the Atheistic Taliban in America.

Um Lluraa. I think you drooled a little on your blouse.

I really hope someone records and uploads the talk.

I'm suprised ad hominem attacks aren't on the list of dungeon offenses, unless they count as slagging.

Make some good points, and enjoy the Denver pharyngulites afterwards.

Atheist Taliban? I can't get my mind around that oxymoron. It must require a some form of mental illness to do so.

When shall we expect the formation of the Atheistic Taliban in America.

See, that would require some sort of dogma, and rational atheists aren't real big on dogma, as a general rule.

I noticed Stupidity is on the list of annoyances that can get a person thrown into the Pharyngula killfile dungeon, so maybe Lluraa belongs there.

Meh. Let 'em post. That kind of ignorance only strengthens the position they're opposing.

Now I'm the one filled with bile: I JUST LEFT DENVER 12 HOURS AGO. My luck...

Woohoo! I can't wait! My baby will be in school, so I think I can go.

As far as I can see, there's a hell of a lot wrong with science education, especially at the early elementary level. Hope two hours will be long enough... :D

FOR RA'S SAKE! ... get somebody to video tape it. the people thirst for media.

Of course my national tour of airport terminals wouldn't include Denver. Because that wouldn't make for a fun visit or anything. I mean, flying through DFW would be so much more enjoyable, I mean, there's so much to do there. There's... Shit.

Hoping for a video.

It's time to kick ass or chew bubblegum. And PZ's all out of gum...

Haha.

Kick some ass, PZ.

"When shall we expect the formation of the Atheistic Taliban in America."

When shall we expect your terminal question mark?

No, but seriously, these things take time. We have to get done organizing the giant Gay Hippie Commie Socialist Intellectual Alien-Human Hybrid BBQ™ first - you know, the one where all of us "pointy-heads" gather in some eldritch location, then first indoctrinate all your tender under-5-year-olds and then subsequently rape and eat them.

Does that answer your question, idiot?

It's OK if people argue with me, too. I expect people to fight back.

What utter horsefeathers. Openness to argument means at least a minimal willingness to engage the argument. All you want is for someone to disagree with you so you can then engage in ad hominem argument. That's not engagement, that's playground behavior.

For once in your life, be honest. You don't want argument. You just want to be perceived as right, all the time. You aren't interested in truth, just increasing the legend of Little Paul Myers.

Speaking of drooling

Posted by: Lluraa | September 11, 2008 1:17 PM

Way to go PZ, you asshole, be to the atheist world exactly what you detest the religious are. You and your followers are hypocrites. When shall we expect the formation of the Atheistic Taliban in America.

Methinks a certain person watched a certain episode of South Park about Richard Dawkins a little too often. Lluraa, you really are a stupid asshole.

You cannot even begin to understand how different the means of gaining knowledge under science and under religion are diametrically opposed. Religion, especially the fundamentalist type, all the knowledge that is needed have been given to us. There is no need to ask why. Under science, it is assumed that there is always more to learn and the best way to do so is to test the thinks we know and follow the questions that arises in the process.

Religion kills this process. That is why it is a stumbling block.

This is not a disagreement between equals. And the attitude of an atheist about knowledge is different from that of a follower of religion.

As for the Taliban crack, speaking only for myself; I have no desire to round up and kill the likes of Lluraa. I only want the likes of her ignored and stewing in their own ignorance until, hopefully, they learn how to think. And, no, that does not mean that you start thinking the same way I do.

Give em' hell PZ!

Oh, the one shit wonder is back. Might as well get started.

Shut up Llurra, you ignorant slut.

nobody. How many keyboards do you short out in the course of a year? Or do you use a plastic cover to protect it from your drool?

Oh Patricia, here's hoping that Brenda van Aslen (Or what ever her name is.) does not show up.

What utter horsefeathers. Openness to argument means at least a minimal willingness to engage the argument. All you want is for someone to disagree with you so you can then engage in ad hominem argument. That's not engagement, that's playground behavior.

Absolutely, because ad hominem arguments are all we see from PZ. There's no evidence presented anywhere, here.

Your tunnel-vision seems to be getting worse. Perhaps you should get yourself a smaller monitor.

#28 - bernard quatermass - Thankyou for making my day! That was so funny I have a stitch in my side and tears running down my cheeks.
Name your favorite pie Bernard. I'll bring you one to the BBQ.

Uh-oh. Nobody is projecting again.

Please do slap him around while I'm gone, OK?

PZ, no need to tell us to do so. It has already begun.

Janine ID - I'm rather hoping ol' Brenda shows up for a guest trolling next Beltane. Descending into obscenities being part of the celebration and all. ;o)

Patricia, is troll stomping your favorite activity? What kind of footwear do you use? Wooden shoes? Steel toe shoes? Stilettos? Or do you pick the appropriate shoe for the individual troll?

Re: troll stomping

Crocs work well.

Yes sir, Captn!

Oh shut up Nobody. Your mother is a slobbering mastiff and your father smells of huckleberries. I wave my ta-tas in the general direction of your uncles!

No more grog & swill for you till PZ gets back.

Give 'em hell, PZ!

When shall we expect the formation of the Atheistic Taliban in America.

We're already buying black helicopters, deploying insidious remotely programmable nanobots, and launching mind-control satellites. You'd better get back to work on that bunker.

Janine ID - I never even knew about troll stomping till I fell through time hole into Pharyngula. Hummm...perhaps I am morphing into a bit of a Shelob.
You do have to be careful with your troll stomping footwear. I don't recommend sandals. You never know what they rolled in before they came to the thread, and they could poop at any time. Logging boots are my usual choice, but I have a nice pair of knee high jack boots just in case. ;o)

@ Patricia #32
"Shut up Llurra, you ignorant slut."

I agree that Llurra/Lluraa is an ignorant, reasoning-impaired sky-fairy worshipper.

However, nowhere in her insipid, spiteful and/or wacky comments have I seen any references that lead one to think she's promiscuous. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) Hence, I think your use of "slut" is unsupported & unneccesary.

We atheists are thinking people, who are supposed to use evidence. Ad hominem attacks should be beneath us. Leave that to the religious nutters who have to use ad hominem attacks because they don't use evidence, because fear of their mythical, psychopathic overlord forbids them from practising critical thinking. (Or any thinking, in some cases!)

Apologies, Patricia, if someone has already posted a "tut-tut" like this one! <:o Yours is the most recent comment that I can see.

Volta:
Knock 'em dead PZ! Looking forward to seeing your speech-- if/when it's posted online somewhere. :)

you ignorant slut

Pop culture reference.

Google Jane you ignorant slut

Lurka, the ignorant slut line is one of the first SNL catch phrases. Dan Aykroyd used to say "Jane, you ignorant slut!" in there Point/Counterpoint sketches.

It also reference back to earlier this year when a rather silly person wrote a letter to the Seed Overlords, tattling that PZ was allowing sexist language. A great laugh was had by most.

Dear Sir and/or Madam,

I wish to register a complaint...

"What's all this I hear about the presidential erection?"

;-)

(more from the same era)

Oh ...nevermind.

@ Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT #47 & Janine ID #48
"Pop culture"
"Lurka, the ignorant slut line is one of the first SNL catch phrases."

Thanks for the clarification. :) I'm not from North America, so I've never heard the reference. I didn't even know what SNL stood for until I checked Wikipedia.

Apologies!

No worries, that's why I posted that link!

Are there any plans for a Friday evening hang out yet?

I'll only be able to stay for half of the talk as I will need to be back in Boulder by 2 o'clock for a class; but if there is a plan for drinks later I'd love to come shoot the breeze with you PZ.

I work on the evo-devo of catfishes and have a hand in some evolution outreach and I think it would be great to bounce some ideas around with you.

First off, go get 'em PZ.

Second, I'm in the Science Education trenches since I currently work as HS Bio teacher. Fortunately, I teach the IB International Baccalaureate which affords me plenty of protection since the curriculum not only recognizes Evolution as an important topic but also as a major theme of Biology. I still get the occasional loony parent complaining causing long and unnecessary meetings with them and my boss. One parent recently criticized my exam for forcing students to accept evolution as fact, not theory. The statement is of course deliciously funny but was also factually wrong, students needed only to understand evolution. In addition, they needed to do things like evaluate evidence.

Anyhow, science education is very much under threat. I do hope to be able to see PZ's take on it soon (please post).

BTW, I'm a proud Atheist but sadly I have to be very careful about being open about it at my job because it could get me into trouble. That, is a sad state of affairs...

I'll bring my camera and tripod. I hope the organizers allow videotaping.

Lurka, No offense taken. The letter to the Seed Overlords pushed me over the line, because the man that got tattled on was joking and didn't deserve the abuse he got, nor did PZ. There are several sluts here....hang out long enough and you'll meet another one. *smirk*

I'll need a cool beer to soothe my ravaged throat afterwards.

Can't offer any specific suggestion as to watering holes in Denver (I'm in Colorado Springs), but most of 'em should carry some of the local Colorado brews. Check out Fat Tire, or anything else from the New Belgium brewery, just up the road in Fort Collins. Their Abbey and Trippel ales are also very good.

Personal opinion, of course. No, I don't work for them; I just like their product.

I wonder if I'm one of those weaselly suck-ups.

It's always seemed to me that when atheists complain about the excesses (offenses?) of religion, examples of Christianity and Islam are on full display - but other religions get no attention

I make a practical distinction between Religion and Theism; the former is specific, while the latter ancompasses all religions. When I read PZ's intent to rail against "religion", it seems to me that he's referring to theism instead. To wit: all religions are to be railed against, in response to problems caused by an obvious few.

Maybe that makes me more of an apologist than a suck up - I'll leave it up to you. When you get right down to it, there's a difference between a religion which claims knowledge of the tangible world (among other things), and a religion which confines itself to ethics and standards of behavior.

To be sure, the latter almost always includes ceremony and beliefs that atheists would find silly/stupid. But I find it unfair that all religion is condemned for the actions of a few.

It's too bad that PZ is wasting his time in Colorado with such piddling issues as the future of American science education when he could be taking the official get right with God Colorado vacation plan instead. Start at Purgatory ski resort north of Durango with a mountain bike ride to the top of Red Mountain Pass where you'll find a small unmarked dirt road. This is the infamous Black Bear Road which takes you to "to hell you ride". People have been known to be born again if and when they finally reach safety. After all who cares about the economic future of the country when there's armageddon to be promoted?

How about those Cubs? Is this the year?

I plan on being there. Can bring a flip video but that will only get me 30 minutes of video.

Somebody needs to take a voice recorder and then put it up on the blog. PLEASE.......

Posted by: Hans | September 11, 2008 3:37 PM

I'll bring my camera and tripod. I hope the organizers allow videotaping.

Thanks Hans. Let us know where we can watch it.

"#28 - bernard quatermass - Thankyou for making my day! That was so funny I have a stitch in my side and tears running down my cheeks.
Name your favorite pie Bernard. I'll bring you one to the BBQ."

You're most welcome. I have to laugh or the despair runneth over.

Favorite pie? It'd be easier to list the ones I don't like! :^) I think a nice simple autumnal pumpkin pie would go well with our forthcoming feast of BBQd Christian rugrat.

When you get right down to it, there's a difference between a religion which claims knowledge of the tangible world (among other things), and a religion which confines itself to ethics and standards of behavior.

Yet, there is no religion which so confines itself. Indeed, it's the other way around: Religion claims that certain standards of behavior are required regardless of the affects of those behaviors in the tangible world.

If there were such a religion (The Church of the Golden Rule, and Only the Golden Rule), I am not sure how it would be different from secular humanism.

Note that all religions have their "ethics and standards of behavior" as dictates and unquestionable commands, not as philosophical analyses of proper conduct based on real-world consequences, and/or the encouragement of interpersonal social co-operation.

It's always seemed to me that when atheists complain about the excesses (offenses?) of religion, examples of Christianity and Islam are on full display - but other religions get no attention

We go with what we know. This is primarily a Christian culture, it's what most of us are exposed to, and it's what (rather frustratingly) most of us are assumed to believe. That makes it a nice, big target. Islam makes another easy target because it's also growing in popularity in Western culture; because extremists have used its principles as a justification to attack us; and because, as it hasn't undergone much reformation in recent centuries, it espouses some views that many in our culture (me among them) find extremely unpalatable. We rail against the things that affect us most.

All the best beer's an hour north in Fort Collins, where I'm at.

Yes to teaching Creation/ID in science classes, with a caveat:
Once a month, every Church/Mosque/Synagogue has a biology professor in to give a lecture/Q&A session on evolution with the doors locked, so the good sheep can't leave.
Think they'll say yes? They want everyone to "know" both sides, right?
right?

Wait, the students get to decide where to go? Great - they'll probably want to go to The Shelter for goth night. So do the festivities start at 2 when the talk is over?

Dang! Wish I could go to the talk--so tantalizingly close, yet too far away from work. Mebbe I can join ya for a beer, though.

Too bad you're not staying longer--have you visited Colorado Springs? ... scary scary place.

... Reiss agreed that creationism and intelligent design are not scientific theories, but he said that did not automatically exclude them from science lessons. "Just because something lacks scientific support doesn't seem to me a sufficient reason to omit it from the science lesson...

This calls for a Reductio ad FSM. (what would FSM in Latin mean? Monstrum spaghettium aviandum?)

Argh, the blockquote didn't work. The above comment is from the guardian article that's linked somewhere in this thread.

Posted by: nobody @ 29
"It's OK if people argue with me, too. I expect people to fight back.
What utter horsefeathers. Openness to argument means at least a minimal willingness to engage the argument. All you want is for someone to disagree with you so you can then engage in ad hominem argument. That's not engagement, that's playground behavior.

For once in your life, be honest. You don't want argument. You just want to be perceived as right, all the time. You aren't interested in truth, just increasing the legend of Little Paul Myers."

Don't listen to him PZ, he's just a nobody. LOL

The more I think this over, the more I am in favour of teaching Creationism alongside evolution - at tertiary level. While I think that K-12 should follow only the conventional science, I think giving Creationists the forum to strut their stuff under the klieg lights of science, would quickly evaporate their claims.
Let them pose theoretical models, let them propose Popperian critical tests, let them submit research questions, and let them show their experiments and research.

... or does this just devolve into scholasticism and works like the Malleus Maleficarum?

Don't worry everybody. There will be a video. In the very least, it will be posted on You tube by the CFI.

When is the after speech get together? 5, 6 PM? I've got a class in Boulder from 1-2 and am relying on public transportation, so it would take about 2 hours to get up there. I don't suppose you could just come over here? We've got some nice spots on the Hill to get a drink, and plenty of gorgeous paths and parks if you fancy a walk./wheedles/

Ah, well. Wherever you decide to meet this evening could you please post it as soon as possible? I've been dying to meet you but I need to plan around bus schedules.

Here's to seeing you,
Cynic

Sorry I got back to this late.

IRT my comments about damning all of religion for the excessed of a few (and the comments from Owlmirror(65) and Adzak(66)), I'm going to do something that I really try to avoid in atheist forums:

If you're curious about a religion which I think fits my example (ie. confined mostly to morality/philosophy as opposed to defining the physical world), do some casual investigation into the Baha'i faith.

I don't think it's "proper" to advocate religion in an atheist forum - in this particular discussion tho, I'm simply trying to provide evidence for the opinions I stated earlier.

I agree that Islam and Christianity are easy targets; the squeaky wheel gets the grease and all that jazz. I'll maintain, however, that far more progressive religions exist (even if they're overshadowed by their larger, more petulant cousins).

Beyond that, have a great weekend y'all...

I agree that Islam and Christianity are easy targets; the squeaky wheel gets the grease and all that jazz. I'll maintain, however, that far more progressive religions exist (even if they're overshadowed by their larger, more petulant cousins).

It may be "more progressive" that other religions but it still asks the believer to suspend rational thought.

Why is it better? You can get the benefits it claims outside of subscribing to a irrational belief as well, no?

If you're curious about a religion which I think fits my example (ie. confined mostly to morality/philosophy as opposed to defining the physical world), do some casual investigation into the Baha'i faith.

Sure, and to be fair, there are plenty of lovely theists out there who pose little to no threat to anyone, on any level, whatever flavour of religion they subscribe to. And there are faiths out there that have some pretty great ideas (personally, I think we should all seriously consider wearing a Kara, for example). But I've never seen any religion that offered any sort of moral code that was in any way superior to what we arrive at via secular ethics. At best, they're superfluous. And, far more often, they're decidedly worse.

Damn, I came to this late otherwise I'd take off some work to come down.

Go get 'em! There's some good Irish joints around here. Irish Snug, Scruffy Murphy's are all good joints for afterwards.

Not too many days ago, Myers posted a plea for pragmitism in the presidential campaign. Its curious that he's able to be sane, civil, and pragmatic when he thinks the situation is important enough. Makes me suspect that education just isn't important enough for him.

Mike, if you had a point I missed it.

Mike: huh?

Well, he's not willing to be the least bit pragmatic in order to reach a significant, and growing, portion of the population that think they can't "believe" science. They don't even understand what that means. When it comes to politics though, that's an important enough goal that care is taken in communication. Education is at least as important as politics. Baiting creationists isn't any more successful at winning support than baiting Republicans.

Still missing your point. Please make it.

Well, he's not willing to be the least bit pragmatic in order to reach a significant, and growing, portion of the population that think they can't "believe" science. They don't even understand what that means. When it comes to politics though, that's an important enough goal that care is taken in communication. Education is at least as important as politics. Baiting creationists isn't any more successful at winning support than baiting Republicans.

First off, if your point is that what he says and how he says it on his blog is not conducive to an open and friendly dialogue with creationists, I think what you're missing is that the message is geared toward a particular audience -- one that is either extremely dismissive toward the opposing viewpoint or that is already hostile towards Myers' views. I don't think it's reasonable to expect that Myers gently hand-hold these opponents toward some sort of rational epiphany.

Beyond that, one can have wildly divergent political views that are still justifiable or sensible, and people should therefore be respectful and open-minded. I think most people would argue that the same cannot be said for the "science/creationism" discussion -- one side is just flat-out wrong, and while it may not be terribly high-minded to kick these people in the shins, the impulse is still understandable.

*when I said "most people would argue," I meant "most people here." I should frame my arguments from authority more carefully...

"What's all this I hear about the presidential erection?"

Well, let's hope there won't be an electile dysfunction again.

I think Mike is concerned that in his talk tonight PZ is going to get up in front of a bunch of theists, bite the head off a baby, pee on a cracker, and tell them they're all idiots, all in lieu of presenting substantive recommendations about education policy. Based on the demure and informed oratory that typifies PZ's public appearances, I find that scenario improbable.

Is that what you meant, Mike?

Your talk sounds interesting. Could you possibly post it on the Web?

Professor Myers seems to be fixated about kicking people around and trying to be a bully. Note his famous quote.

"Our only problem is that we aren't martial enough, or vigorous enough, or loud enough, or angry enough." He wrote, "The only appropriate responses should involve some form of righteous fury, much butt-kicking, and the public firing and humiliation of some teachers..,"

How intolerant and bigoted this is for a self proclaimed liberal. Maybe he can set up "reeducation camps" like the Red Guard did during the cultural revolution in Red China?
It is interesting that even though Dr. Myers is so scientific, he has NO data to prove his ideas. Can he name one study that shows ID science education teachers have students that are inferior to the standard evolutionist teacher. NO he doesn't, so he uses an emotional and subjective appeal (by talking about butt kicking) to get his followers to rant and rave to the local school boards. Maybe he should not use his platform of a public funded professor to go around the country spouting forth his hate and misinformation? Now really, if he had sent the above quote on a school email to some ID teacher, he would have been in big trouble for harassment. When you talk about pompous and arrogant, I think Dr. Myers fits the bill to a T. By the way, "righteous fury" on Dr. Myers part should maybe be "Self righteous fury"

Coach, can you show me the five journal articles from Science and Nature proving that ID is scientific that I asked for the last time your posted? Science the enterprise is published in scientific journals like the two mention. Can you demonstrate that ID is science by showing the articles? If not, why should a science class teach non-science.

coacholson #91

Can he name one study that shows ID science education teachers have students that are inferior to the standard evolutionist teacher.

The problem with ID is that it isn't science. Science goes in for things like "evidence" and "falsifiability" and all the little gimmicks that creationism ID fails to provide.

There is a philosophical concept called methodological naturalism (MN) that science follows and creationism ID rejects. MN limits scientific research to the study of natural causes, because any attempts to define casual relationships with the supernatural are never fruitful, and result in the creation of God of the gaps-type hypotheses. To avoid this trap scientists assume that all causes are empirical and naturalistic. This means they can be measured, quantified and studied methodically.

Creationism ID works on the principle "goddidit." No evidence is needed, just a basic statement of faith. Sorry, that isn't science.

As shown in your post, you don't give evidence to support creationism ID. You just whine that Professor Myers does not hold your belief in high esteem. This is typical of creationism ID believers.

Can he name one study that shows ID science education teachers have students that are inferior to the standard evolutionist teacher.

Well being that they do not teach science that is implied.

If my English teacher was teaching pig latin instead of English then it's pretty obvious to assume that I wouldn't be learning English.

ID is not science.