Uh-oh. I'm in big trouble now — I've been ratted out to the governor. My nefarious schemes will certainly be foiled now! Here is the revealing letter; I've added a few comments in red to it.
Dear Governor Pawlenty
I am an alumnus of the University of Minnesota, having received my Ph.D. in Zoology in 1954 [We've gotten better since then].
I have for some time been concerned about the behavior of Paul Zachary Myers, Associate Professor of Biology at the Morris campus of the University. His rabid attacks on our most treasured institutions [What? The Discovery Institute?] give me great concern both for the University and for the citizens of the State of Minnesota [Since, as we all know, criticizing anything puts people in peril]. I have written to the Provost and received neither acknowledgement nor reply [I wonder why?]. I complained to the Board of Regents and received a reply from the Chancellor of the Morris campus supporting Myers' right to say what he wants [I have heard of this custom, called "freedom of speech"]. Minnesota has become a center for Universal Atheism [I wish!] largely due to the pervasive influence of this man [Moi? Feel the power!] and his hundreds of devoted followers [Minnesota: population 5,200,000. Followers: hundreds. Yet we conquer!]. It shows in the presence of another foul mouthed atheist, Al Franken [I saw him campaign: he pointed out his Jewish religious beliefs frequently], poised to become a member of Congress [I wish, again…latest results show Coleman clinging to a slim lead]. I want you to know my feelings with the hope that you might use your influence as Governor and ex-officio member of the Board of Regents to expose and counter [How?], as I have and continue to do, Myers' corrosive influence which I believe extends far beyond the borders of the State of Minnesota [My tentacles reach far]. It is especially important now that we have elected a man to the Presidency with extremely uncertain purposes [Delusional paranoid speaking there]. I see the future of the Republic to be in grave jeopardy [If Obama is Palpatine, do I get to be Darth Vader?].
Sincerely yours,
John A. Davison [Retired crackpot], Professor Emeritus of Biology
If I suddenly disappear after this, look for me in the dungeons below the Capitol in St Paul.
- Log in to post comments
I love it so!
"If I suddenly disappear after this, look for me in the dungeons below the Capitol in St Paul."
On the bright side, the dungeons are probably the warmest part of the state this time of year...
You know, PZ, I think you'd look good in a shiny helmet and vinyl cape.
What are you all staring at me like that for? You know you were all thinking it too.
JAD!!! hahahaha. Oh that's so good.
Wow, I really wish I could piss-off as many people in a lifetime that you are able to in just one day!
I thought, why another droning whine? Then John A. Davison.
Ah, good to hear from the deluded old fool again.
By the way, what's his complaint about atheists? Seems that he's been claiming that God did exist, and there's no evidence that he still does. How is that "better" than atheism, even in the minds of the deluded?
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
So, did Prof. Davidson cc you on this letter, or did Gov. Pawlenty forward a copy on to you?
If the cell is as solid as those arguments we will have you out in time for dinner.
Good grief. As your previous post noted, these guys seem to be on a different planet entirely.
However: I do not know the religious inclinations or educational background of the Governor. If he were somehow taken in by this rambling tripe, what could he actually do?
Oh, what times are these when "the Chancellor of the Morris campus (is) supporting Myers' right to say what he wants".
Dear Gawd! Hide the wimmen and childrens! Ebil athiests(sic) are ruinin' the world, doncha' know!
(Oh, and Perfesser Davison, if you're reading this -blow me, you credulous douchebag)
That's hilarious.
Oh for fuck's sake.
JAD?
Damn, I'll have to say, beyond the stupidity of the email it's wasn't nearly as insane as most of his ramblings. He must have had someone proof it for him
I LOVE IT SO!!!
That the future of JAD's evolution involves a padded cell is undeniable.
Wait a Minute! I thought JAD was from Vermnont?
http://www.uvm.edu/~jdavison/
I suspect the REAL letter writer is another well-known crank, Norm Coleman.
Professor Emeritus of Biology
Wow, PZed. Is this guy writing of his own accord, or has somebody "coaxed" him to complain, hoping that his title would carry some weight? Or maybe the man cooks exclusively with aluminum pots?
Pardon my ignorance, but who is this crackpot? It sounds like he has a track record, but Google turns up nothing.
If your 'rabid attacks' truly are infecting your region with atheism can you bottle whatever infectious agent you have in you for a mass innoculation programme worldwide? Or maybe we could slip it into the water....?
Is this the first sighting of this particular adjective being thrown at atheists - rabid??
Got that? Write that down.
*sputter* *seethe* No, not in Comic Sans!
Aww, I was looking forward to more crackergate mail, and all we get is JAD? Well, apparently he's still alive out there...wonder if he's started a new blog recently...
He is an obviously mentally disturbed ex-professor. His comments and posts are generally insulting and terribly rambling always finishing with some stupid saying or quoting of himself.
LOL! I love how fundamentalists always say that atheists obsess over famous atheist like Richard Dawkins, yet this writer is absolutely obsessing over someone that has little to no political power (I don't know about his standing @ U of M).
I somewhat agree with him in one point, though: I think Al Franken is the very, and I mean very, slight favorite to win this race, at least according to Five Thirty Eight. The Republican counties have more recounted ballots than the Democratic counties do.
Oh Google turns up plenty of crockpottery on this guy. Just type in:
John A. Davison, Professor Emeritus of Biology
Loved your comments PZ... you should do that more often.
The only thing missing was the shadowy shape of Mike, Tom Servo and Crow.
If I suddenly disappear after this, look for me in the dungeons below the Capitol in St Paul.
Will there be snacks? I only mount rescue operations if there is a better than even chance of snacks. It used to be cake, but it was always a lie.
The whole letter can be summed up as:
"Can't! Stand! Someone! Else! Thinking! Differently! Than! Me!!!"
I refuse to believe that is the real JAD.
1. It's nearly coherent
2. No "I love it so!"
3. No quote from himself at the bottom
Clearly, this is someone attempting to take advantage of JAD's high international repute.
You look more the Obi Wan type with the beard PZ. That must make us the good guys.
From the link in post #14 :
http://www.uvm.edu/~jdavison/uvm-antidarwinian.html
"In 1984 I published the first of a series of papers offering
a new hypothesis of organic evolution: "Semi-meiosis as an
Evolutionary Mechanism" appeared in the Journal of Theoretical
Biology. 1984 also happens to be the title of George Orwell's
novel, the significance of which will soon become evident.
[...]
What we are witnessing here is the enormous influence monolithic neo-Darwinism can have in at
least one state university."
lol what
Okay, that explains it. Thanks guys.
Hehe! This letter (and your comments) brightened an otherwise gloomy day here. Funniest thing I've read in several weeks!
So what is it with these people who think that they have a right to not be insulted? And then they cast atheism as being this evil plague that wants to lead us all to anarchy - Oh Noes!!
They get so god damned defensive when their stupidity is questioned critically...and they are unable to defend it. So much so that they want to take the rights of speech away (and probably many others) from those in dissent of their delusional views. Scary people.
lol. someone who is photoshop literate should paste pz's face onto the iconic standard oil cartoon...
http://www.matternetwork.com/images/Matter/Standard_oil_600.jpg
[Minnesota: population 5,200,000. Followers: hundreds. Yet we conquer!]
That hundred wouldn't happen to be 300 would it?
Atheism? THIS IS PHARYNGULA!
So many words to say so little. In the interest of expediency, he should have written:
"Dear Governor,
I am a bigoted, religious twit. The world around me is changing for the better and I can't cope. Change is evil. Stagnation is good.
Please stop progress. I can only cope if I live in a world dictated by the morality of iron age tribesman and overseen by an invisible sky-faerie.
If you're Darth Vader, can I be one of your secret Padawan's?
His homepage at www.uvm.edu/~jdavison/ explains a lot about him. This guy is a crackpot.
WOW. You're a supervillian. That's freaking awesome.
Just be wary of weird guys in capes and masks....
No way. Everybody knows that Joe Lieberman is Palpatine.
@32
That would make an awesome promotional tool for atheism, a few hundred rationalists stand against the hordes of ignorance. A meter stick can be our sword and a laptop our sheild. As for the partial nudity we can handle that on a case by case basis.
Just wondering, how did you get a copy of the letter?
@36
You mean like Bibleman?
Christie,
IMO PZ needs some kind of bionic prosthesis, or power-goggles, or something, to qualify as a supervillian. Right now, all he's got are hoards of minions and a trophy wife - unless I'm missing something.
Loved the comments in red. I read this, wondering who on earth would write like this. Then I saw it was JAD and I LOL'd.
About halfway down I was thinking; this is pete rooke.
My douche-dar needs recalibrating.
Knowing JAD he probably cc'd or bcc'd PZ or someone at the University.
LOL - he ran for Governor in 2000!
http://www.uvm.edu/~jdavison/platform.html
John A. Davison is an internet legend! Click the "Dungeon" tab at the top of this page; he's the fourth plonkee listed and there are some links if you wish to learn more about him. Truly a fascinating case.
@ #23:
@#37:
Hell no! Have you already forgotten about Cheney?
Posted by: HumanistcJones | November 24, 2008
That hundred wouldn't happen to be 300 would it?
Atheism? THIS IS PHARYNGULA!
I do not think I want to see PZ, Nerd, Chimpy, Glen Davidson, Owlmirrow, Rey Fox, QWERTY, David Marjanović, Hank Fox, Cuttlefish, Sven DIMilo, Brownian, and the many others here (Sorry that I cannot name everyone!) running around bare chested.
PS is THIS his blog? If so, he claims you prevent him from commenting on your blog... Just noticing...
Alex @41
Not true, Lex Luthor was the ultimate supervillian and he had none of those thigs. Of cource he also had a s**t load of money so that made up for it.
You've been making "rabid attacks on treasured institutions?" Good grief, man. Why is Davison only contacting the governor? Surely he should call a medical center, if not 911 or even Animal Control. Rabies requires more than snippy letters to elected state officials. It's a serious health issue.
Not just atheism. But rabid attacks. No wonder your minions are spittle-flecked.
Lets just say the chimp moniker applies to not just name only....
PZ once posted a nipple shot! Somebody should dig around in the archives for that one.
I was expecting some new crank-a-pot, and you give us something by JAD? My disappointment is palpable (not Palpatine)
Promise me new sneakers for Christmas and just spray paint my old ones, why don't you!
JAD?!!
I damn near hit my head on the coffee table, reading that!
(Well, my desk, but give me a bit of artistic license.)
And, please, no 300. But I do like the idea of assembling a band of seven intrepid atheists to protect the village of Morris against the ronin of creationism and a whatnot.
Lone Drinker - certainly not bare chested, but if they could apply some of that CGI technology we could appear right glorious.
Too bad that PZ and his cohorterie (oh, wait, that would be us) have put the future of the Republic in grave jeopardy along side a man of extremely uncertain purpose and one other, another foul mouthed atheist. Maybe if we sell enough tickets to the end of the Republic we can get out of this financial mess we're in?
Janine ID AKA The Lone Drinker #49 wrote:
Speak for yourself. I never get to go to those kinds of parties, Spartan or otherwise.
Palpatine is clearly Richard Dawkins... And I'm pretty sure you'd be a wookiee (or however the hell you spell that).
I hope you're happy. You have single-handedly converted Minnesota to a center for Universal Atheism.
John A. Davidson:
Translation:
Oh damn.
Sanity Jane wins the thread.
ROFL. No really.
Incidentally, I'm pretty sure that JAD is not entitled to the "Emeritus," and that he never made full Professor (separate issues). I guess "Associate Professor, Forcably Ejected Retired" doesn't sound as impressive.
Agreed with Rev. BigDumbChimp. Sanity Jane is number one. All others are number two, or lower.
Kristie and Jello,
Well, maybe so. But for appearances he should at least have a special deadly skill, like flinging petri-dishes like a ninja star or something. I mean, it's just good marketing.
Christie @ 54
Didn't work out so well for John McCain, now, did it?
Just out of curiosity, how did you get your hands on it? Surely he wasn't fool enough to copy you on it... or was he?
My family has a large number of file-in-a-cake recipes, if you do get sent to the dungeon. We started the collection right after my father's cousin killed her husband with a metal bedpan.
I wouldn't mind seeing MAJeff half-nude.
How cool would it be if the governor wrote a reply consisting entirely of "Your concern is noted"?
Got to love the paranoid delusion atheists spark in believers simply by speaking out.
I am shocked and dismayed at the shocking and dismaying shock tactics of this dismayingly militant atheist so-called professor of biology! Someone should do something! GASP!
/concern
That letter looks far too coherent for JAD to have written by himself. Did VRMartin help him? Does he have any other collaborators that he has not managed to drive off yet?
And more seriously, some sort of early-onset dementia should not be ruled out.
"[If Obama is Palpatine, do I get to be Darth Vader?]"
I considered this, but the thought of Darth Myers destroyed my universe once I heard him say, "I find your lack of faith disturbing."
Actually I think it would be cool if he flipped and publicly declared that he was going to try to hound PZ from office for godlessness ,and then he got smacked down by the US constitution.
I'm trying to wade through his evolutionary manifesto but it's kind of painful. Can anyone synopsis what his "non-Darwinian" evolutionary mechanism is?
wait... I thought Darth Ratty was Palpatine?
If it's Darth Meyers, does that make Kirk Cameron Luke?
"...NO...you're not my father!!..."
I call Poe.
If it were from the REAL John A. Davison, you'd hear slurping, licking, sucking, and kissing sounds from his lick spittle VMartin, and the salivary excess would've rendered PZ's motherboard unusable.
If it really is from JAD, well, with any luck there'll be another decent, white, christian president for him soon who'll save all the blond-hairs and blue-eyes from the inherent Nazism of evolutionary theory.
For a vision of an alternate reality where John A. Davison sees God's invisible hand in the natural harmony of ham and pineapple, read decorabilia's John A. Davison orders a pizza: a play in one act.
I love it so!
"[Of JAD] A past lobotomy is undeniable, present Involuntary commitment unattempted."
-Brownian
Apparently John A. Davison was a professor of Biology back in the good old days before that damned Francesco Redi ruined the science with his accursed jars and cheesecloth!
No. Nobody can do that. Some suspect it has something to do with "frontloading," but even that is far from clear. Whatever it was, though, it has stopped. No more evolution--humans are the last species ever to evolve.
I'll dress the part!!
It'll give me an excuse to dust off the old cape and codpiece.
I knew they'd come in handy again.
It is so typical of conservative Republicans to say they stand for the Constitution and then want to silence any opinion that is not their own.
The fear they live in must be mind boggling (assuming, of course, they have a mind)
Keep up the good work PZ
Janine ID AKA The Lone Drinker @49
The good thing is that, if my own physique is any indication, no one would actually see any of it. The light reflecting off of all of that pale would blind any onlookers.
Just another one of our weapons that we shall use to conquer!
No matter what he said earlier, as soon as he said this he labelled himself a crackpot.
Except that the governor would just end up getting a slap on the wrist and becoming a martyr/hero for the "persecuted" Christians while making life harder for PZ.
>>If I suddenly disappear after this, look for me in the dungeons below the Capitol in St Paul.<<
I would think you would be taking Catholics to them and making them watch while you defaced crackers.
We should get this to Franken.
He'd love it.
Let's see. 12 years of primary school, but this guy was bright so let's say he skipped two grades and did it in 10. 4 years of bachelors, 2 years of masters, 2 years of PhD. That's 18 years of school, which he probably started around age 5. That's 23 in 1954, and 77 years old now, and that's probably a minimum.
I'm thinking the dementia / aluminum pots theory is probably pretty close to the mark.
Were animals even invented in 1954? :) I guess if you're a Palinite, that would have been just after the Great Flood.
I saw that post too, and I would take it with a grain of salt. Mr. Silver obviously knows what he is doing and did a great job projecting the election results, but the data just doesn't exist for a sensible analysis at this point, and all the massaging in the world won't make what he's doing any more than fun games with numbers. Still, I think it's too early to be saying that the "latest results show Coleman clinging to a slim lead." The latest results show that the number of challenged ballots swamps Coleman's lead, so we won't know much of anything until the challenges start being adjudicated.
Did you guys forget about this from 2007:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/05/john_a_davison_is_such_a_tat…
And as a addendum to your commentary on the article.. at this point :
I have for some time been concerned about the behavior of Paul Zachary Myers, Associate Professor of Biology at the Morris campus of the University
(Insert "Bad to the Bone" track.)
PZ, if you end up in the dungeon, don't use a stick (aka Small Club). It's a wimpy, cliche' weapon! File down a prison bar and wield that. It's like a +1 Stick!
@Evolving Squid: Dude!! So THAT'S the letter to the provost he was talking about? I didn't remember that one bit
Another funny and interesting read.
Woo-hoo! I win! But you know, I really like:
Well, to give him credit, your tentacles DO reach far.
*waves from Australia*
Oh, wow. That was a good letter, but then seeing the signature... what a payoff. I think I need a cigarette.
JAD... ROFL
Lost on the dark side of rational he is!
Posted by: HumanisticJones | November 24, 2008
Janine ID AKA The Lone Drinker @49
The good thing is that, if my own physique is any indication, no one would actually see any of it. The light reflecting off of all of that pale would blind any onlookers.
Pale Force 300?
SanityJane (# 61 ) gets my vote for next months' 'Molly'.
Damn you, Brownian @ 78, you beat me to the punch with JAD orders a pizza (a classic), and Sheden Freud won the thread with "I love it so!" on the top comment.
I'll guess I'll have to settle for: It is hard to believe, isn't it
I was kinda hoping we could invite Patricia, Nancy, Sanity Jane and Michelle.
it always seems so weird to me to see a biology faculty at a big/established university to claim weird or just wildly *wacky* things, for example, that they don't *believe* in evolution or that aids is not caused by hiv, etc. i'm not talking about things that go against established paradigms but things that're obviously influenced by factors outside of good scientific sense. how can you honestly carry out good research in any biology fields and at the same time claim to not *believe* in evolution. i know tenured or tenure-track professors can basically say whatever they want, but with all due respect, sometimes it's just plain embarrassing to hear someone who trumpets their high degree with one hand and touts pseudoscience with the other...
@SanityJane #61:
http://www.thinkgeek.com/homeoffice/supplies/61b7/
I must give this one credit. At least this email isn't littered with misspellings and exhibits some general level of coherence.
Posted by: druidbros | November 24, 2008
I was kinda hoping we could invite Patricia, Nancy, Sanity Jane and Michelle.
There was a reason why I left off the regulars I know to be women.
How'd you get the letter, PZ? Is this guy honestly stupid enough to CC you on emails you'll just post on the blog for all to mock? What a moron.
@32 and 61,
Win!
@Janine#106: Cuz you don't wanna see my sweet, sweet chest?
...Cuz you're a girl?
Cuz I am a lesbian.
Minnesota has become a center for Universal Atheism
Which way is Minnesota from my house? I need to place the secularism rug so it's pointing in the right direction.
I hope that thirty year from now I'm not writing stuff like this letter.
Sven@64--you're absolutely correct--his is not entitled to refer to himself as "emeritus". I retired last May as an associate professor and inquired into this very thing--was told "sorry, but you can't call yourself 'emeritus' unless you retire as a full professor." (I received my calling late in life...)
I wasn't familiar with this guy, but his signature line on his posts is often:
"A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable."
John A. Davison
My brain hurts from trying to force this to make any kind of sense...
All right. Now the thread spirals toward porn. It's a bedrock indicator of the quality of the original topic. So, where were we?
Holding Davidson's name until the end was a nice touch.
But one of your comments is wrong: He's not a retired crackpot. He's still a very active crackpot. He's only retired as a professor.
Janine, I offer my sincerely apologies if I offended you.
Absolutely hysterical!!
This post--and this blog--are a joy to read.
"I complained to the Board of Regents and received a reply from the Chancellor of the Morris campus supporting Myers' right to say what he wants"
Oh the horror!! I can't believe the Chancellor supports.......*free speech* ......GASP!!!!!!.....Did this JAD fellow just crawl out from under a rock? Why is he so perturbed by this? The guy is a babbling simp and has obviously never read the Bill of Rights. Real problems would arise if the Chancellor tried to intervene.
You obviously recognise the superiority of the Australian bare chest, since you didn't include me, Kel or Clinteas in your list...
crap...sincerest.
Posted by: Evolving Squid | November 24, 2008 4:30 PM
Did you guys forget about this from 2007:
There's only one way to settle this.
PZed, this man has besmirched your honour. I suggest that you challenge him to fisticuffs.... and youtube it, of course.
Druidbros, you did not offend me at all. Hell, your first post made me laugh.
And I suppose I will offer to buy you a round if I ever have the opportunity. But not if you have to change your moniker.
I love this comment Davison made on his blog March 29 (he seems to make 98% of the comments there):
I repeat here my prediction that by next February, Pharyngula, Panda's Thumb and RichardDawkins.net will have disappeared along with their sponsors from the ranks of meaningful discourse concerning the discussion of the mechanism of organic evolution. P.Z. Myers, Wesley Elsberry and Richard Dawkins will all have become embarrassing, insignificant little footnotes, the last surviving proponents of the most ill conceived, the most experimentally faiied, the most transparently naive hypothesis ever generated by a pathologically impaired human imagination.
I think he has a crush on you, PZ.
Posted by: Wowbagger | November 24, 2008
You obviously recognise the superiority of the Australian bare chest, since you didn't include me, Kel or Clinteas in your list...
Wowbagger, I hope you noticed my preemptive apology. Now SC may be an other story.
I don't know...after years of diabolical plotting its probably nice to get this kind of validation once in a while. When I started reading this blog some years ago I must admit, I was in it for the squid. How could I possibly imagine I would find myself a member of such a dark and nefarious cabal? Nice work PZ.
Cool, then the invitation extends to you too !!
I would hope that most posters here have rather thick skin, as I am always more likely to make a lewd joke than to make a point.
It's a family trait, I'm afraid.
Now back to the subject of the thread, which was, of course, bare chests.
Friend of mine is a school psychologist. He just started blogging but he's very afraid to say anything controversial.
And this in liberal New England.
I love how Davison tries to hold you responsible for pretty much all the negatives in his life.
Is he a professional curmudgeon?
I saw it, but couldn't resist making my silly comment anyway. I was playing on everyone outside Australia believing that we all look like Hugh Jackman.
If I suddenly disappear after this, look for me in the dungeons below the Capitol in St Paul
Given Pawlenty's track record vis-a-vis infrastructure maintenance, you should be able to break out with a sponge and a rusty spanner.
There, that's better!
Is this guy any relation to Glen Davidson?
Posted by: Wowbagger | November 24, 2008
I saw it, but couldn't resist making my silly comment anyway. I was playing on everyone outside Australia believing that we all look like Hugh Jackman.
...and Nicole Kidman.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by: ggab | November 24, 2008
Now back to the subject of the thread, which was, of course, bare chests.
I love it so!
Wowbagger
What an odd coincidence.
Every bare chest discussion in my house leads to a Hugh Jackman reference.
I'm going to pretend that it's my wife that always brings him up.
Al Franken? THAT Al Franken? Schweet.
@124
I agree.
Dark and nefarious minions of the diabolical cabal of the atheist squid blog, Pharyngula.
I think there needs to be "mysterious", "all powerful", and "beguiling" somehow used as well.
I think it would be interesting to watch a John A. Davison vs. Holbach smackdown. For a while, I mean.
Shorter JAD:
Raaaaaah! BURN HIM!!!
Fortunately, not even the name is the same. He's "Davison".
Unsurprisingly, the "missing d" is much more noticeable to me than to most people having neither last name.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Ah, the poor senile old religious retard, crying to a terrestrial being when he should rightly appeal to his imaginary god to come down and smite PZ. "Hey god, are you listening to me? What the hell, am I talking to myself?" You couldn't tell either way, eh moron?
ggab:
And codpieces. Don't forget the codpieces.
Wowbagger: Hugh Jackman helps me forget about Mel Gibson and Rupert Murdoch...D'oh!
Speaking of Kidman and Jackman - I left my pissant home town in Australia's north nearly twenty years ago and didn't regret it at all until they announced they were filming substantial portions of the film Australia there - it would have been great to have been there to see what actually goes on.
Now I get to go see it and look for people I know amongst the extras.
Janothar @ 65:
That Mystery Men flashback leads me to ask:
If PZ is so powerful, how come JAD hasn't come home late one night and fallen down the elevator shaft...onto some bullets?
Oh NO PZ! The Governor. Oh my God you're in the shit now. I'll see if we can call in some favo-
What?
We don't live in a despotic colonial state where a governor has unchecked power over his district?
Abolished that you say?
Oh, um- well carry on then.
@135
Alex, you make it almost sound unionized...Minions, Henchmen and Flying Monkeys local 135...hmmmm
You know PZ, I started reading this blog about the time of crackergate. Then, I knew the fundie extremists were mock-worthy, but I thought there was a whole majority of sane, rational christians out there who just happened to be wrong about this one thing, and I thought it crass of you to provoke them.
What changed my mine wasn't anything you said, it was them. I realized it's not only an insane minority that's dangerous, it's the majority. And that's confirmed to me on nearly a daily basis as I visit here, and always by what they say, not what you say.
This letter serves as yet another reminder that these people are delusional, dangerous, and not to be given an inch.
I once thought you too course - now I get it. No need to try and expose their lunacy, just stir the pot a little and let them expose it themselves! How elegant!
speeling owns me. Mine = mind. Course = coarse.
Must remember to proofread.
Jebus, take a little time to watch the Nova Bible episode while on vacation and the fun breaks loose. Janine #49, you are correct in not wanting to see a bald 50+ overweight male bare chested. Sastra #59, you haven't missed any thing (although the Redhead may have a different opinion). The last time I was bare chested in even a small group was a pool party where the Redhead and I were the youngest present.
Do we need to break PZ out of the Governor's dungeon yet?
OMG, PZ!
The JAD-r-meister his own self!
Happy Thanksgiving, PZ, and how do you like those cranberries?
I love it so.
p.s. JAD never writes to me. *sulk*
I don't know if we're twisted enough to laugh at this or if I'm killing the mood, but here goes...
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/atheist-bus-more-like-a-band…
Have you cats seen this?
I'd like to see a no-holds-barred anti-evolution battle royale between JAD and Michael Egnor.
That's the great thing about JAD: he can find something to argue about with anyone. I love that he's banned from Uncommon Descent.
lol
It didn't really hit home until I read The Chemist's comment @ #143 that he actually sent that to the governor. The governor.
Indeed. One of my favorite hangouts in New York is the Sunburnt Cow, an Aussie bar in the East Village. Every guy there is adorable. I'm sure there are unattractive men in Australia, but they must stay there. I don't think I've ever met one.
Grats PZ!
You're an officaia leader of the secular bastards pushing 'the agenda' now. I humbily bow down to your tenticle awesomeness! Keep up the good work.
Regards,
Rhysz
Paranoia springs eternal.
Sanity Jane
Actually Mel Gibson was born in America so we get the blame.
Wait a minute.
Isn't Ken Hamm an Aussie?
Ken Hamm, Rupert Murdoch and Yahoo Serious??
What the hell did we do to you?
Damn Aussies!!
Still...Hugh Jackman makes me question my sexuality.
OK we're even...and we still get to keep Johnny Depp.
Do you hear me France? You can't have him.
Wowbagger, I have one name for you. Just one name.
Yahoo Serious.
I *know* not all Australians look like Hugh Jackman.
Clearly, not all Australians look like Hugh Jackman. Some look like Paul Hogan instead.
And then, the women all look like Nicole Kidman.
It does bug me though, how he claims MN has become a "center for Universal Atheism" as though 1) that's a religion, and 2) that's a bad or legally actionable statement. Can I claim NYC has become a bastion of Catholicism and then try to kick out our . . . oh, drat, what do Catholics have? ArchDeacons? Viceroys? Emperors?
ggab, just read it. Typical twaddle by a person who seems convinced that atheists are incapable of enjoying life. A big pile of nothing and by tomorrow it will have escaped my notice. Laugh at it, the person who wrote has nothing.
OK, there are a few.
LadyRhian
I beat you to the Yahoo Serious reference!
I have an odd sense of accomplishment mixed with bitter shame.
I'm sorry, the thought of you as Darth Myers (Darth PZ?) is just too much to bear. I shall now enter a monastery. Wait, are there atheist monasteries?
Dammit, I'd hoped it'd been long enough that everyone would have forgotten Yahoo Serious. Unfortunately, I resemble him far more than I do Hugh Jackman - though without all the hair. Mine is more reminiscent of Gene Wilder than anyone Australian I can think of.
I'd talk about Heath Ledger but it makes me too sad.
Shit, we've been found out Wowbagger. Now I'll have to fake an british accent if I ever meet anyone here so they'll just think I'm another pom.
<creationist>Yes, they're called "universities".</creationist>
Anybody see why I'm still ashamed of being American?
I wonder if those of my fellow members of the biological community have given that fuckbag the ouster. (His head would probably explode if he found out 93% of the NAS is composed of atheists.)
Hey PZ,
You left one of your tentacles in the parking lot of my office in Idaho Falls. Please send one of your minions ASAP.
Wowbagger
You never seem able to forget the attrocities.
We all pray that there will come a day that we can forget Yahoo Serious.
Perhaps then, our peoples can come together, but not before.
Vader is the wrong image for PZ. He's definitely Doc Oc, mild-mannered professor who goes bad.
Oh, and when will we officially have an Evil Minions Association. And a benefits package, including dental (super-heros are always knocking our teeth out).
ggab #149:
You can tell they're getting pretty desperate to try and remain relevant. More and more I see their arguments moving away from the existence of god and toward the need for the *idea* of god for a healthy society.
Of course, they're wrong about that too...
Don't forget disability. Just in case we can't work again due to injuries suffered from superheroes.
Yahoo Serious, once you seen him, you cannot unsee him.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead | November 24, 2008
Don't forget disability. Just in case we can't work again due to injuries suffered from superheroes.
That is why I am joining The Evil League Of Evil. I have sent my petition to Bad Horse, The Thoroughbred Of Evil.
Janine
As awful as that preview was, this is the part that made me cringe..."Warner Brothers PROUDLY presents"
Really?
Proudly?
He not a popper Cistian. Ant menshuned yer trofee wife. Seen er pix from Galapagux (Satun sentral).
Did Inglish at Oral Robert's, me.
Let me join the choir of doubters. I had to read all the way to the signature to find out it was by the legendary JAD -- that e-mail is not his style, except for the amount of exaggeration.
But, yeah, maybe VMartin helped him or something.
Incidentally, the very first comment already wins the thread. How cool is that?
LMAO! Wins teh intarwebz as a whole.
When they really wear capes, just laugh at them. They evidently haven't watched The Incredibles.
Don't worry. I wouldn't like that either. Instead, I would insist on wearing an anachronistic T-shirt. I just couldn't decide which one: the "I Support Scientific Triassicism" one or the "SUPPORT A UNITED PANGAEA" one?
("Pangaean Unification Foundation -- One Continent. One World." Hey, that might even fit the Obama Derangement Syndrome. OK, the Pangea one it is, then.)
Also... meter sticks? Real scientists use a medieval war rock hammer.
:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
This thread saves my week right on Monday! :-D
Also, God has existed and is dead. I don't think JAD has ever complained about atheism before, though I could be wrong.
He believes evolution unfolded according to a "prescribed" plan, and calls everyone who doubts that a "prescribed" fool. Scare quotes included.
When called on his utter ignorance, he modifies that to "the last mammal species". Which, of course, doesn't make the slightest bit more sense.
And Kseniya. I mean, have you seen her fight? She can dress a moose troll in 3.54 seconds.
I see your Holbach and raise you a truth machine.
Wait, are there atheist monasteries?
Yes, they're called "universities".
That would explain the vow of poverty!
Did you remember to include a letter of condemnation?
Ah well, it won't matter anyway. Bad Horse refuses to admit anyone into the Evil League Of Evil who doesn't get his titles right. He's the Thoroughbred Of Sin.
I always believed the theory that one of the ugly Hanoverian kings made handsomeness a crime and sent all of the hottest guys to Australia. I found London absolutely void of good-looking men--and I looked. Ok, there was one guy, but he was Indian.
'pouts'
I failed as an evil super genius.
I am condemned to being an evil minion. I hear that Harmony is looking for help.
Janine, if you need letters of recommendation I'm sure Patricia and I could help you out.
John A Davison? Why there's a self-promoting, self-important delusional twat whose name I haven't heard in a while!
Wonder what he's been up to? I suppose he's still boasting to anyone who'll listen (i.e. nobody) about his brave and heroic exploit of venturing in to the lions den of the richarddawkins.net forum, only to be banned by those nasty atheists just for challenging Darwinian orthodoxy (actually for shameless trolling, but why let the facts get in the way of a good self-pitying whine). Nice to see he's still in that little bubble of his - the real world would be far too scary for him.
How has PZ not posted about this scary insane squid yet:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/11/081124-giant-squid-magn…
This is the stuff of nightmares.
OT, but it appears that some of Obama's populist lip service in order to get elected may end up making me respect the man all the more.
The gym is a much better use of his time.
Janine, you owe me two liters of brain bleach.
This has been a very entertaining thread (the women are kicking butt), but where is JAD and his delusional rant rebuttal?
JAD is in the dungeon.
JAD has been banned from posting comments here. See the 'Dungeon' section.
Posted by: 'Tis Himself | November 24, 2008
Janine, you owe me two liters of brain bleach.
I warned you.
Posted by: freelancer | November 24, 2008 7:02 PM
OT, but it appears that some of Obama's populist lip service
Until you can get elected in the US without having a deity, lots will pay lip service. We all saw what Liddy Dole tried to do to Kay Hagen, but until that day when more people can be like Pete Stark, if you wish to seek high office, you best park your buns in a pew on Sundays. I personally think that one's religion or lack thereof will have little effect on American political aspirations in a decade, with the exception of some rural places in the Bible Belt. Religion's biggest challenge now is the easily available information online. Knowledge is power, and the church has historical kept that power to themselves, or did what they could to subvert it.
That said, I still get some enjoyment from the kooky fundies, let's hope they don't die out completely.
While I prefer Franken over Coleman, I really don't think that he's on our side. I have several times seen him mock Jesse Ventura for his anti-religious comments.
The dungeon doesn't stop Charlie Wagner from posting.
Kel, CW is at least smart enough to find a loophole, especially considering the number of bans he has. JAD is just a senile old fart. The least change from his habits will confuse him.
Why is it that flukeworms like this moron use 75-cent words like "corrosive" to describe their envy hatred for progressives like you, yet they also write crap like "your a looser"?
You keep 'em writhing, PZ! And enjoy the teeth-gnashing. It's always fun to watch an idiot froth at the mouth when they can't shut you up. ;)
I'll tell R2 to shut down all the garbage smashers in Minnesota.
It seems to me that the retired biology Phd is showing his senility.
As the first time making a comment on this most excellent blog, Pharyngula, allow me to say:
1. That Davidson dude is an amazing nutjob.
2. Happy 149th anniversary of "Origin of Species" everyone!
// continuing an OT...sorry..
@Freelancer
OT, but it appears that some of Obama's populist lip service in order to get elected may end up making me respect the man all the more.
During the primaries, I was debating which Dem to support Hillary (my senator) or Obama. Then someone directed me to his speech regarding religion. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXcvbnzNIjg -> not rickrolling). His absolute devotion to the First Amendment, by fully understanding that it is not only protecting us godless atheists, but all people, no matter what their religion or lack of it, is what was really at stake. This was the "tipping point" for me.
Damn Yankees #182,
what a wonderful squid. I don't get sound on the work PC, but I could hear 'WTF?' loud and clear as the camera jerked across and down and up.
I thought I've heard his name before. On May 26, 2007, he complained to the Provost of your university that you were being mean to him (you called him a famous Internet crank -- next time, please say "notorious") and on Dec. 7, 2005, there was a discussion on your old blog about whether he was in the early stages of dementia.
We're finally getting some snow here - wet snow.
ggab @ #155
LOL! And fair dinkum. I knew someone would point out that Gibson's no skippy but a Yank by birth, but one can make the case for him being culturally Australian since he moved there at the impressionable age of 12. At the very least we should be royally pissed that Australia sent him back.
Yahoo Serious and Ken Hamm also came to mind, but Murdoch is hard to beat for far-reaching evil and Gibson still runs a close second for managing to remain relatively mainstream while spreading his wackaloonery.
Not to alleviate Australia's responsibility, but isn't the fact that the US has been a beacon for those types of people more damning of the US than Australia?
Atheists find no joy in life? That's not what this thread is telling me. :D
What's with this 'devoted follower' thing? Atheists ain't no followers. I just can't get next to the notion of some big dumb chimp staring lovingly at PZ's picture "Oh, PZ, I would do anything for you. I desecrated a host just for you, I dissected a bible, what else can I do to get your attention?"
Now minion, that's at least respectable, evil hoards and all that.
And hundreds? Isn't it like tens of thousands?? Millions, millions would be good. That's a hoard.
My understanding is he'll also accept 'The Stallion of Sin'.
Sadly, I expect, a letter of condemnation from a retired crackpot probably doesn't hold quite the weight even of one from the deputy mayor.
(And damn. Shoulda realized there was no way I was gonna get in the first Dr. Horrible reference in this crowd.)
If it's one meeelion dollars (holds pinky to mouth), it's a hoard. If it's millions of minions it's a horde.
(Know your evil homonyms.)
Kel
"Not to alleviate Australia's responsibility, but isn't the fact that the US has been a beacon for those types of people more damning of the US than Australia?"
I will forgive your kneejerk defensiveness.
I know it's only a reaction to the shame you feel over Yahoo Serious.
Wait a minute!! MEN AT WORK!!!
All is forgiven Aussies.
I'll deal with Hamm,Serious, Murdoch and what you people did to that poor Mel Gibson if we get to hear Men At Work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lcu7OCIqlqE
Let it flow through you!!
There's a brief review of Davison's hypothesis on the Web site of Minnesota Citizens for Science Education: "Update on ID publications" by Jim Curtsinger.
I was in a band called millions of minions...
Which cereal box is advertising a degree in biology? I want to know! If I could get my doctorate, say from Trix, I could have all of the power! Watch out, PZ!!!!
I'm planning on moving to Minneapolis next year, and I'll say that you, PZ Myers, did have a little to do with it. But as much as I love your writing and your blog, I'm moving there because it's a cool place and University of Minnesota is a fantastic grad school, not because I'm following your persuasive ways. The way this guy writes, it's like I'm moving there because I'm joining some kind of cult. I'm just looking for a good school! :-P
So tell us, PZ, when do you take over the banks?
It's easy to laugh at him, but I find it a bit disturbing. Davison really isn't all that different from the guys who stoned the 13-year-old adulteress to death. If this were the middle ages, he would have had PZ burned for heresy or something. I'm glad he doesn't have that sort of power, but it's still a little upsetting to me.
Chris
"The way this guy writes, it's like I'm moving there because I'm joining some kind of cult."
You're still joining the cult though, right?
I mean you're not letting that stop you?
Oh, FYI You have to bring your own goat for the ceremony.
Oh man, you rule PZ! I was about to suggest that Davison should shut up to keep his dignity but I forgot he's got none. Someone has to tell him that he must return to the precious business of filling the internet with lots of different blogs.
Davidson: Running for governor of Vermont. I get emails from him now and then, with his "manifesto"
... another casualty of standing too close to the edge when the world trembles a little. He'll get over it.
Thank you, thank you thank you for invoking freedom of speech instead of that often easily abused silly notion of "academic freedom" (resort to that gives me cramps).
I was reminded of this quote from Steve Martin: "The pseudo-scientific world has responded by saying that it needs at least three endorsements from independent crackpots before anything can truly be called "pseudo.""
Posted by: Cujo359 |
Which way is Minnesota from my house?
Odds are, it is north-ish.
And they ain't kidding about this Canadian Air Mass stuff.
Anyhoo, being from the Bible Belt, I always figured the Great White North would have a relative absence of wackos, since what you find in MS and AL would surely amount to nearly the entire representation of crazy in the nation--but I've met some of the most singularly paranoid evangelicals since I've been here.
It's a whole new range of strange.
Can someone please explain how this is possible? Between then and now did Schizophrenia take over? Or is this just senility? Or is he one of those people who can be bright in one field and completely batshit in everything else? Or is he just lying?
Who's Hugh Jackman?
Apparently, we already have.
Oops...this is the proper thread link.
Be happy that your governor isn't Sarah Palin. She would find the writer of the letter insightful and interesting, and would hire a witch hunter to chase you out of the state.
If it's one meeelion dollars (holds pinky to mouth), it's a hoard. If it's millions of minions it's a horde.
(Know your evil homonyms.)
Due to incorrect usage of homonyms, I have been banished from the hoard of evil minions and am demoted to devoted follower.
The shame! My scarlet letter t-shirt can no longer be worn.
Please, not Mass, anything but that!!
This is serious, P.Z. If I were governor, I'd be royally pissed off that you had done something to cause Davidson to look up my address and stick it on his computer.
Maybe Davidson will move to Minnesota and run for governor himself. He's experienced at that, you know.
Holy crap. Good for total LOL times, but also scary stuff.
You have no idea how much I envy you.
If you go to the Dungeon, PZ, will you be able to take...
The Comfy Chair!!!
or perhaps, The Fluffy Pillow!!!
No, not Darth Vader, Grand Moff Tarkin: no magic tricks and TEH awesome power of the Death Star at your fingertips. I mean, a laser sword and a suffocation trick vs blowing up planets, that's hardly a choice.
Lest I forget:
"Minnesota has become a center for Universal Atheism "
Minnesota, where hell froze over 6,000 years ago.
Any good IT jobs there? Hell, I'd take any job (except for anything involving selling physical, intimate services in the streets, I heard it can get a tad cold there).
clinteas @ #220: Who's Hugh Jackman?
Huge what?
We need to start a CURE FAITH! campaign.
AJ Milne @ #204:
FOR THE HORDE!
(Actually, I think my rogue does say "for the hoard"...)
Not so fast, ggab--*cough*Air Supply*cough*.
Please know that your cephalopodic tentacles reach far beyond the borders of Minnesota, all the way to the other side of the world!
#234
But! Midnight Oil.
To those who were wondering - from his blog:
"I also managed to send this on to Myers via his one way communication system at Pharyngula.
I love it so!"
'nuff said.
PZ - You're too humble. As of this morning, you have 3,356 "followers" on Facebook. Just 5,196,644 left to brainwash!
Can't give you full credit there. Colin Hay is Scottish.
TISB
YOU people are a bunch of LOONS!!! Especially the geezer PZ Myers......Take a walk and get some fresh air and move to France if you love it so much. Too bad most of the country is Center-Right. You will be in the minority for a LONG LONG TIME!!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! And if you support Stuart Smalley you really got problems. He is the biggest liar with no integrity and he wouldn't see the truth if it hit him in his goofy little face. But you all probaby think he is a god......or wait god doesnt exist..........I guess all that Kool Aid ya Idealogues drink really gets to your head.
That should be TISM.
Another rightwing wacko who doesn't believe that Obama won the election.
What kind of a professor goes and posts the letter of someone else just to get a few laughs. It's almost as if saying, "Someone agree with me!" So quit being a hypocrite and let him say what he wants without someone judging him. If this letter is as stupid as you make it out to be then let the Governor decide that for himself.
@ Bend Over (the child): "I guess all that Kool Aid ya Idealogues drink really gets to your head."
Do you know what an ideologue is? Obviously not how to spell it ...
Regardless of that, it's quite amusing that you would refer to us as ideologues, when it is so obviously you that is clinging to partisan ideals with no basis in fact. I think for myself, and have made a habit of disagreeing with those on the left and right. Can you say the same?
Somehow I doubt it.
Your ignorance is entertaining, please reply :-D
Ben Dover (you wish)
You presume we are all American. Wrong.
You presume we are all politically on the left. Wrong, I am also politically centre right. But I would rather spend my time with the people here than some narrow minded numpty like you.
Now, do you actually have anything interesting to say?
By the way, the collective noun for loons is an asylum, a cry, a dopping, a raft, or a water dance of Loons.
Shorter ben dover.
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. I droppped my IIIIIIIIIIICE CREAM!!!
The moron is asking for him to be terminated from his job or at least silenced.
What's more, the objection is not that Professor Myers is incompetent but rather that ex-Professor Davison doesn't like Myers' atheism.
Matt #244 wrote:
You're mistaken. Atheists do not want to be able to say whatever we want "without being judged." We want to say what we want without being judged incorrectly. And the remedy for incorrect judgment is rational argument, not suppression. We want fair debate, because we believe we can win it.
Religion and pseudoscience, however, routinely conflate criticism or contempt with censorship. They try to protect themselves by appealing to rules about politeness and civility. That's all they have, for their arguments can't support their own weight.
And JAD has the right to say whatever stupidity falls out of his mouth at any given time. But we have the right to point and laugh at the same hilarious incident.
Atheists do not want to be able to say whatever we want "without being judged." We want to say what we want without being judged incorrectly. And the remedy for incorrect judgment is rational argument, not suppression. We want fair debate, because we believe we can win it.
OT slightly, but I'm actually coming to the conclusion that there is nothing to debate.
It is an irresistible fact that the Bible, if interpreted literally, stands in direct conflict with knowledge gained from empirical observation. (Arguing the opposite, as creationists do, is simply a waste of time and should be ignored; they have nothing useful to add to the discussion.)
Therefore, there are only three possible coherent responses:
(1) Conservative Christian: The Bible appears to be in conflict with our empirical observations, therefore our empirical observations must be wrong.
(2) Non-believer*: The Bible appears to be in conflict with our empirical observations, therefore the Bible must be wrong.
(3) Liberal Christian: The Bible appears to be in conflict with our empirical observations, therefore the Bible should not be taken literally and/or treated as fully inerrant (but is still a useful source of knowledge).
Which of 1, 2 and 3 one chooses is entirely a matter of personal faith, and there is, therefore, nothing to debate.
*I refer here specifically to non-believers in Christianity; however, much the same exercise can be performed with most other religions.
I call Poe's Law on comment 241 -- I think it's a bad attempt at parody --, and poor reading comprehension on comment 244.
Wrong. It is very legitimate to debate the validity of empirical evidence. If someone is denying what the vast scientific consensus is on a topic (ie.. evolution) and their only support of thier side is the bible that is worth debating.
because
they
are
wrong
period.
And also with itself, while we are at it.
A lot of people do this, I can not understand why they do that
Option 1 is belief in spite of evidence. The claim that every fact is either an evil trick by the devil or an evil test of faith by God is unfalsifiable. Silly, yes, but it is coherent, just as Walton said.
It does, though, require complete rejection of Ockham's Razor.
Well, for one thing you could still debate that "useful source of knowledge" claim.
Sven writes:
Incidentally, I'm pretty sure that JAD is not entitled to the "Emeritus," and that he never made full Professor (separate issues). I guess "Associate Professor, Forcably Ejected Retired" doesn't sound as impressive.
Excactly true. Davison stopped doing real research in 1976. He had conplained on the web about NOT being granted Emeritus status.
He's just a senile old twit, mad at the world for not having his "genius" honored as he thinks it shold be.
David Marjanovic at #257 has captured the essence of what I was trying to say.
Basically, this rests on fundamental epistemological assumptions. There are people who take the Bible (or some other religious text) to be the highest possible source of truth; therefore, if our empirical observation conflicts with the Bible, then our empirical observation must be wrong in some way (e.g. because false evidence has been planted by Satan to confuse us).
It's impossible, therefore, to argue with someone who holds such a view; however much empirical evidence you show them in opposition to their position, they will not change, because they believe observation of physical reality to be a less reliable source of truth than the Bible. So it's a waste of time debating with them.
In contrast, most people (including, so far as I know, everyone here) make the opposite epistemological assumption; where a religious text conflicts with empirical evidence, they assume that the empirical evidence trumps the religious text. Therefore, there are only two options open to them: reconciling the Bible with observed reality through a non-literal reading, or rejecting the Bible. The former is the liberal Christian view; the latter is the non-believers' view.
Walton #252 wrote:
I disagree -- because there's a lot of baggage packed into the phrase "personal faith." When people signify that something is a matter of personal faith, they do not mean to indicate that it's simply an idiosyncratic preference or taste, like preferring carrot cake to ice cream. There's nothing to debate there, and no reason to debate it. It's insignificant.
On the contrary, those with personal faith invariably believe that their faith is the most reasonable choice, given their experience and evidence, and signifies an important commitment made within the larger framework of virtue. They don't believe what they believe on a whim, or for the heck of it. Nor do they (usually) think they stand completely apart from all other human beings, so that what persuaded them, could never persuade anyone else.
There is an area where liberal Christianity runs into atheism. If you take the Bible too metaphorically -- and if you read it with too much of an eye for what it tells us about the past and our human nature in a practical sense -- then you lose any supernatural foundation for your beliefs. Christianity turns into Secular Humanism with a particular aesthetic and literary appreciation for the narrative of the Bible.
Debates can only happen between people who share similar values -- including a concern for accuracy and truth. They can only take place if each person values consistency within their own beliefs. As long as theists are basically honest, truthful, reasonable, consistent, and open -- or think they ought to be honest, truthful, reasonable, consistent, and open -- then there will always be something to debate, where there is disagreement.
Walton #261 wrote:
You ask them why they believe the Bible to be the most reliable source of truth. They must ultimately base their trust in the Bible on reasons that are not from the Bible. This gives the common epistemic ground.
I will grant you this, though. If you ask a person "could you be wrong? And, if you found out you were wrong, would you want to change your mind?" and they answer "NO!" -- then yes, there is zero point to attempting any debate. Someone who either thinks it's logically impossible for them to be mistaken -- or who doesn't care if they're right or wrong -- can't be reasoned with.
They'd have to see that themselves. The only wedge you might have is that the person who admits, out loud, they they don't think it is POSSIBLE, even in theory, for them to be wrong -- probably knows at some level that they've just sounded like an ass. If they're a theist, you can point out that they're making themselves into God.
And, by the same token, someone who makes themselves impervious to persuasion because they've successfully established the point that they don't care what the truth might be -- they'd hold on to their belief anyway, because there are so many nice personal benefits -- has pretty much trashed their own beliefs, and must know it. They're using a belief in God or Christianity or alternative medicine or whatever as an outfit, a way to dress up and play pretend so they can look nice, and join a group which also looks nice. They're the Catholic who goes to church for the history and pageantry and social activities, and couldn't get a flying F for whether any of it means anything outside of its usefulness. No, you can't debate someone who has, technically, already conceded.
While we're on the subject, Walton, I was rather troubled by a portion of your comment here:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/11/bad_arguments_useless_poll.p…
When you insist, at the tender age of 19, that your "basic philosophy is a libertarian capitalist one, and will always be so," I have to wonder what you mean by that and what the source of your certainty is. Are you removing political-economic philosophy - which you've gone to the trouble to italicize and all - from the realm of empirical evidence and rational debate? Are you doing what Sastra talks about @ #263? Are you saying that you hold the works of, say, Friedman or Hayek to be above evidentiary challenge?
I'd never heard of Yahoo Serious, so a google image search turned up this amusing macro:
http://www.overthinkingit.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/yahoo-serious…
Also, SC, I'm in NYC and crazy about Hugh Jackman, so I'll need to check out that Sunburnt Cow joint. Their website is crap, though... automusic and weird flash effects and just general unusability. :-P
Ok I guess the use of the term "debate" here is maybe the wrong one to use. For those that are so fucking deluded as to be beyond the ability to recognize that they could be wrong and ignore all evidence to the contrary, yes debate is impossible.
But I don't think that the act of pointing out the stupidity of said position is a worthless act. If anything you help to educate others and point out the stupidity of that position.
Sastra: There is an area where liberal Christianity runs into atheism. If you take the Bible too metaphorically -- and if you read it with too much of an eye for what it tells us about the past and our human nature in a practical sense -- then you lose any supernatural foundation for your beliefs. Christianity turns into Secular Humanism with a particular aesthetic and literary appreciation for the narrative of the Bible.
Yes, I'm somewhere on that spectrum myself, but would (broadly speaking) call myself a liberal Christian. Suffice to say that I totally reject biblical literalism (as do most of the intelligent Christians I know).
Although I've spent a lot of time here arguing, I have come to realise that I really have comparatively little to debate with people here. The literalist evangelical-conservative version of Christianity is easy to debunk; as regards that particular conception of God, I'm as atheist as you are.
SC: When you insist, at the tender age of 19, that your "basic philosophy is a libertarian capitalist one, and will always be so," I have to wonder what you mean by that and what the source of your certainty is. Are you removing political-economic philosophy - which you've gone to the trouble to italicize and all - from the realm of empirical evidence and rational debate? Are you doing what Sastra talks about @ #263? Are you saying that you hold the works of, say, Friedman or Hayek to be above evidentiary challenge?
Not at all. Rather, I would say that, based on knowledge of human nature and human history thus far, my philosophy is, by default, one of individual freedom and free markets, since this is the basic formula which, more often than not, has created flourishing and prosperous societies. At the same time, I would recognise that, like any practical political philosophy, this has limits; and that in the real world, there are times when government intervention may be called for. This judgment has to be made rationally, based on the best empirical evidence available; but we should always work from the basic starting-point of individual freedom, and restrict it only where an irresistible case is made for its limited restriction.
As to Friedman and Hayek (and older writers, such as Smith or J.S. Mill), their philosophies have influenced mine in significant ways; but this does not, of course, mean that their economics or their practical policy solutions must always, in all circumstances, be rigidly followed regardless of any arguments to the contrary. That would be elevating libertarianism to the level of a religious doctrine, which is something that is not healthy for any political philosophy.
@238,
What is this facebook group? I can't find it! I want to be an evil minion too!
Ah, but the mighty PZed only needs 666 followers. The rest of you (us?) are cannon fodder, although, you (we?) will be the first to be eaten. Praise be Cthulhu!! =)
Bendover
Dude, I would if I could. Is this what passes for an insult these days?
I did a quick search and didn't even see it. I'm a bit surprised they have one - they seem too outdoorsy or whatever to bother. It's definitely worth checking out, though. Have fun if you do go!
Walton:
If there's anything I don't want to do it's spend more time debating blithertarianism (especially as I'm on my way out the door..well, trying to get out the door). I will say that others (e.g., Kropotkin) have started from this same starting-point and come to very different conclusions.
I mean no offense, but it seems more like you've changed your tune here than answered my question. If you accept that your basic philosophy - especially concerning capitalism and its relationship to the freedom and development of individuals - could be mistaken and can change in light of new evidence, if you acknowledge that you're still young and don't possess vast stores of knowledge, if (and this is still a big if in your particular case, sorry to say) you are determined to be intellectually honest in your search for and consideration of relevant evidence from the past and present, I don't see how you can stand by your earlier assertion that your basic philosophy would always be a libertarian capitalist one.
Posted by: SC | November 25, 2008
If there's anything I don't want to do it's spend more time debating blithertarianism (especially as I'm on my way out the door..well, trying to get out the door). I will say that others (e.g., Kropotkin) have started from this same starting-point and come to very different conclusions.
Dare him to read The Conquest Of Bread.
Hey, not only has PZ influenced Minnesota, he's got minions all over the world, muuuuahahahaha :D
Go sit on your thumbs zoombie worshippers! :P
LOL. PZ as Darth Vader? That would be an interesting sight!
"Your lack of faith disturbs me." Oh, hold on, that would be a comment you'd expect from a religious person!
You mean PZ is not the name your parents gave you?! haha
Ah... when ever I have a bad day, I just come here for the hilarity of other peoples inane-crazy views :) Then everything (after my steaming "what the- seriously?) is better.
THANKS for your blog- it's one of my fave top 5's. And I love: [If Obama is Palpatine, do I get to be Darth Vader?]
I think the classic British phrase "Like being savaged by a sheep" is singularly appropriate.
A geriatrics version of "I'm going to tell on you"? Jesus Christ, I hope that when I'm old and gray that I have better things to do with my time than writing crypto-racist crank letters to uninterested governors regarding some professor's blog.
You've even got to me here in Aussie. Ain't the web wonderful it even makes it to outback atheists.
Chill out Professor! Surely, if the afterlife is what it's supposed to be, we're all going to burn in hell for eternity. So that should surely satisfy your retributionist urges.
Or like most devoted believers, have you a small inner voice squeaking: "Maybe it's a fraud and there is no afterlife and no god." This phenomena is mostly viewed in the devout when facing imminent death from degenerative disease; they try to delay death with utmost tenacity. This always seems a paradox. If you believed in the whole god package, you'd think you'd be keen to get there to meet
her/him. Keep on them bludgers, as we say in Aussie, Mindlesley
"It shows in the presence of another foul mouthed atheist"
'Foul mouthed'? This from the man who constantly urges people to kiss his ass to a purple blister?
Actually, Professor Davison is a real scientist. Remember that PZ Meyers was taught Darwinian Evolution and atheism instead of Biology. His is a common symptom of schizophrenia. Technicians think they are engineers, engineers think they are scientists and Darwinian atheists think they are biologists.
Message to PZ: Learn from JAD while he is still alive.
TPD, you keep using the antiquated term "Darwinist". Most of us fail to understand what that means. If you are implying a cult of Darwin, you are simply a bald faced liar. Scientists admire Darwin, but by no means give him cult status. Darwin got many things wrong with his theory of evolution, but he did the best he could with the information available at the time. Meanwhile, about 150 years have passed, and evolution has come to include items like genes, DNA, better dating methods, and many other observations, all of which back up evolution, as the science is known now. So maybe it is time to upgrade you bigotry and call it simply "evolution".
haha...
it's MYERS.
dumbass.
Posted by: Those Pesky Darwinists | November 26, 2008
Actually, Professor Davison is a real scientist. Remember...blah...blah...blah...
Thankfully my large intestine rushed up my spinal column and cut off the connection between my eyes and my brain, thus saving my large intestine from having to process my brain.
Moyers?
I'm calling Poe
Darwinbots? Devolutionists? Chance and Luck worshipers?
If you are going to make a point about evolution, it helps to actually understand the concepts behind it.
TPD, just evolutionists would do. You could even call us evilutionists if it makes you feel better.
If you are going to call us evolutionists, you might as well call us heliocentrists too, or relativists or thermodynamicists. By defining us by the science we know, all you are doing is destroying the foundation of religion by reducing it to merely a set of beliefs. But that's not what religion is, religion is an institution - a social construct, it's a communal gathering, it's a set of rituals, it's a definer of morality, it gives purpose and meaning.
As for evolution? It's a descriptor of how life emerged and became diverse on this planet. It doesn't have a church, it doesn't have rituals, it doesn't have community gathering, nor does it define morality, or give a purpose in life. To equate "darwinism" to religion is diminishing both science and religion.
Learning how to be a demented crackpot is not something to recommend to anyone.
Dementia, while it causes delusions and outre behavior at first, inevitably leads to death: It means that the brain is rotting and dying.
It's a pity that JAD cannot realize this, ranting and raving as more and more of his mind slips away.
Wow that was dumb.
To follow that logic. Christians think they are Biologists?
"It doesn't have a church, it doesn't have rituals, it doesn't have community gathering, nor does it define morality, or give a purpose in life."
Then I guess I came to the wrong place?
"Remember that PZ Meyers was taught Darwinian Evolution and atheism instead of Biology."
"Darwinian atheists think they are biologists."
No conflict between the two, the others were just there to reinforce the point. I am surprised logic is so important on this blog.
Depends on what you're lookin' for.
Indeed.
"It's a pity that JAD cannot realize this, ranting and raving as more and more of his mind slips away."
True, but his science stays. Where is yours?
What science?
The dude doesn't have an entry on Wikipedia, I'm guessing whatever contribution he did was not noteworthy.
J.A.D. - Sad old man who lost his mind.
That sounds good to me. And just as accurate as calling airline pilots "Fish-Combustors".
So, Those Pesky Devolutionists, did you leave school at such a young age because Dad needed your help in the factory, or was it more of a Midnight Cowboy/off-to-the-big-city-to-find-your-destiny kinda thing?
In either case, good luck upgrading at your nearest adult-education centre.