This looks like fun, but it's a bit of drive for me: Steven Schlozman will be giving a talk on the neuropsychology of zombies. He's talking about levels of activity in the brain and modeling of behavior, which could be interesting — fantasy and horror can be useful tools to get people interested in digging deeper into biology.
Where I always get stuck in any scientific examination of the entirely imaginary phenomenon of zombies, however, is the biochemistry and physiology. They just can't work. They're using meat to generate motion, but the properties of meat that can cause contraction/relaxation are dependent on a biochemistry that requires fuel and oxygen. Dead meat doesn't do work! You just have to surrender to the premise and go with the story, because there's no way it can be rationalized.
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ACTUALLY - there's a lot of chemical energy remaining in that meat. It's just that the usual biochemistry to release it has been turned off. If I burnt that meat, I would get net energy out (I guess). I could use that to do work...
You sure this isn't going to be about Red Sox fans?
i think that infected with some disease makes me crazy want to eat brains type zombies deal with that better than your classic zombie... but i think we could make real zombies if we can create a rabies/PCP, that would be awesome!
Wait, don't they crave braaaaaaaiiiiinnnnnssssss?
That's good ATP right there.
You just have to surrender to the premise and go with the story, because there's no way it can be rationalized.
I believe the lit/film crit. term is "willing suspension of disbelief." This phenom also dovetails nicely with certain other topics you write about. ;{)>
Zombies make sense as long as you don't think about it too hard. The problem with have a rational discussion about an irrational topic, is that while you are sitting in your armchair with your fellow left-wing intellectuals, the hordes of zombies are coming towards your front doorstep, breaking in the windows, and creeping inexorably closer to you. So rationalize away, Dr. Science Man, because you need to do a good job of convincing the zombie it can not possibly exist as it chews through your delicious living brain.
How about dead souls?
Actually, I think that it fails even in most systems of woo, too.
To be sure, dead meat actually does do work, as bacteria make use of it. That helps the premise not at all.
Some ideas should just be abandoned, like Spiegel's Armageddon. I don't say that you can't make shit up, but it still has to be believable.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
And yet its the whole basis of christianity.
How long before before his talk will pop up as proof of christianity and gods?
I'm betting on 3 weeks.
We'll call it Romero's Wager:
Do you want to risk not believing in zombies? If they don't exist, having the extra machete in the house has little cost. If they do exist, then that money you spent on body armor and extra shotgun shells will save your life.
Damn, Randy Randy, you just made me spit Dr. Pepper all over my monitor.
Assume it's another organism, or collection of organisms, that grows and differentiates inside dead bodies, 'burning' the flesh for energy. It could use the blood vessels as a handy template for a 'root system' to digest the body from the inside. It would need to replace muscle with something equivalent, and it'd be most efficient if it replaced much of the nervous system, using it as a template, at least up to the brain stem. Now it has a control system pre-tuned to the body it's in. That's the minimum needed to get the dead body moving.
Getting the senses working requires a lot more differentiation. Smell wouldn't be too hard, but hearing and vision need much more specific structures. Of course, in (most of) the movies, zombies don't exhibit much awareness of their environment.
None of this is strictly physically impossible, but it's... ahem... really unlikely. You'd need something close to nanotechnology to make it work... and if you could do that, why bother making zombies?
Bacon! It cures hangovers and animates zombies.
dont forget they show zombies going for months, if not years without drinking anything other than human liquids, which get scarser as the plague spreads. by all rights zombies should dry up and cook in the sun. according to the survival guide, they definitely freeze, so just try to make it through till the first heavy frost of winter, where applicable.
another major problem with this guy's speech is a taxonomic one:
"Zombies" are actually ghouls and, to a lesser extent, ghasts!
Ah, the taxonomic classification of the undead. Zombies and ghouls are two different kinds of undead.
While some of you here might argue that minor variation of one species of undead can eventually lead to the creation of another type, true believers know that such macrozombification has little evidence.
Sure, I'll grant that some microzombification variation can produce different kinds of zombies, but there is no fossil record of one kind of undead permuting into another kind. There are two many gaps in the undead fossil record.
So rationalize away, Dr. Science Man, because you need to do a good job of convincing the zombie it can not possibly exist as it chews through your delicious living brain.
Wasn't there something about this in some zombie film or another: The frightened hero is talking to a scientist about rumors of zombies in the town.
Scientist (at end of long explanation of why zombies are impossible): ...so that's why zombies don't exist and you can stop worrying about them.
Voice outside the door: BRAAAIIINNNSSS!!!!
Scientist: ...but of course we must always be open to new evidence.
I think a lot of the modern zombies are more like something out of Carl Zimmer's "Parasite Rex," where its funtions have been high-jacked. I don't think of them dead so much as taken over. But if in the Zombie Apocalypse another hypothesis is required to explain the flesh-eating Armageddon outside your window, might I propose nanotechnology, ball bearings, and lasers?
This is one time that I agree with creationist. Science totally ruins the concept of zombies, and I'm just going to ignore it, and continue hoping that one day, the apocalypse will happen. But with zombies.
Well, Spielberg's Armageddon. Whatever, whoever, it's not like I've cared for his movies. Still surprised to find myself writing "Spiegel," though.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
I always imagined that they weren't really dead, just MOSTLY dead. Thus whatever was now controlling the body was dealing with a pretty much dead brain (not a big problem since "it" is calling the shots now anyway) and meat that's badly impaired but still kinda functional. Hence the lurching and such. Of course that version of zombies wouldn't involve cemeteries erupting with undead, and they'd be a lot more vulnerable, presumably still needing oxygen and vaguely functioning organs, which would probably still fail fairly soon. But then I guess even that's a pretty big stretch.
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=121258&d=7&m=4&y=2009
RIYADH: Neurologist Fawzia Ba-Mogdam, who specializes in epilepsy and sleep disorders, disagrees with the layman’s understanding that epilepsy is caused by jinni (spirits) and should be treated with recitations from the Holy Qur’an rather than medication. Contrary to the advice given by some religious scholars, epilepsy is a physical condition that should be treated with the help of medical science.
Well who would have guessed, epilepsy isn't the result of genies?
If they do exist, then that money you spent on body armor and extra shotgun shells will save your life.
Unintentionally funny because most of the folks here are hugely anti-gun, and thus extremely unlikely to have shotguns. However, I can see a scene where liberals, trapped in an isolated Northwoods cabin are beset by zombies and waste precious minutes, and perhaps shoot one of themselves, while attempting to figure out how to use the shotgun. Hilarity ensues when they abandon figuring out how to work the gun, and repurpose it as a club.
Sunday is Zombie Jeebus Day, so that makes tomorrow what? Jew on a Stick Day?
@Non Sequiturus Wingnutus: So you're creating a hypothetical insult based on a fictional situation?
Ray Ingles @ 11:
You'd need something close to nanotechnology to make it work... and if you could do that, why bother making zombies?
------
Dude. Ask me why I need hoverboots when we can make planes. Awesomeness is probably the ultimate reason to make/do anything. It breaks down thus: Nanotech - awesome. Nanotechnology working spookily and invisibly inside a fleshy corpse cocoon in order to animate a legion of demented footsoldiers - totally awesome.
I mean, for a while anyway.
The writeup would have been much more interesting if it dealt with the neuropsychology of actual, real world zombies- Haitian people poisoned with a cocktail of drugs (including tetradotoxin, the poison in puffer fish and some newts) by Voodoun priests and find their brain chemistry is all screwed up. Initially they appear dead, and would often be buried, but they would later regain some movement and limited cognitive ability. It seems strange enough to be a myth, but there is actually a decent bit of evidence backing it up.
Bureaucratus Minimis: As everyone knows, most people are unlikely to survive the coming zombie invasion. Shotguns are a short term solution to a long term problem. Having said that, they are fucking awesome.
Surviving zombie attacks or alien invasions is all about attitude. You can not be a coward or too cocky, it is about finding the right confident balance.
Or to quote Michael Biehn's character from Aliens:
[pulling out his pump-action shotgun]
Hicks: I like to keep this handy... for close encounters.
@23, Assume you're addressing me. It was intended as a light-hearted joke. No actual insult intended.
There is an element of humor in zombie films, and the scenario I described would be a great setup. "A shotgun...er, anyone know how to use one of these????"
Thanks for the wingnut slam. I find it hugely funny, since I'm a gay atheist. But you're welcome to hate on me because I know how to use a shotgun. I'm southern, so you can have extra fun mocking my accent!
And you decline nouns about as well as Brian Cohen in "Life of..."
Cheers.
Cheers.
The Zombie Survival Guide by Max Brooks gives a good and thorough explanation of the zombie virus and its effects on the human body. (Get it, read it, know it. It will save your life.)
As far as definitions go, zombies are mindless, slow moving undead. They are necrotic in nature and will eventually exhaust their energy stores and “die”. Ghouls in general are faster moving and more importantly intelligent undead. Ghouls still have a problem solving "mind", although it will have very little resemblance to the person it was before. Ghouls are insanely driven to satiate a hunger that can never be satiated. They aren’t necessarily “dead” but still have a metabolism. They will “live” as long as they can feed their hunger.
It is very important to identify what type of undead you are dealing with as quickly as possible since the survival tactics are different for each type.
For example, the zombies in “Diary of the Dead” or “Shawn of the Dead” are true zombies. The infected humans in “I am Legend” are more accurately described as ghouls. The absurdly fast moving, mindless zombies in movies like the “Dawn of the Dead” remake or “28 Days Later” or the already dead rising up zombies like in "Night of the Living Dead" are just pure fantasy nonsense.
Anyone else think this was going to be about the Fox News sponsored "Anti-Tax Protest"?
My apologies Bureaucratus, sometimes the trolls on this site give me knee-jerk reactions.
/facepalm at self
The scenario you explained definitely reminds me of Shaun of the Dead, if you've happened to see it.
I was going to write in correcting PZ about the non-existence of zombies, highlighting the ethnobotanical poisons (paralytics and hallucinogens) used in Haitian voodoo. But this thread is much more fun, so nevermind...
ThirdMonkey wrote,
Be careful, that's just what the powers that be want to you believe. I can't say much more here, but they have scientists, in labs, attempting to weaponize the undead.
@bureaucratus - A southern gay atheist? Yeah, I think knowing how to use a gun is probably a useful skill for you. Bigots, unlike zombies, are very real, and prevalent in these parts.
Zombies? You mean Ray Comfort, Ken Hambone, O'Reilly, Limbaugh, Donohue, and all the other squash brains descending on a town to suck out rational brains and still maintain their own shit matter.
Just in time for Easter! =)
Helvetica @ 30: Thanks for the straight up apology. Such integrity is rare on teh 'webs.
"Programs, programs, can't tell the players without a program..."
Dead meat doesn't do work! You just have to surrender to the premise and go with the story, because there's no way it can be rationalized.
You can pretty much say the same thing about any Resurrection story.
ThirdMonkey@ 28:
The absurdly fast moving, mindless zombies in movies like the “Dawn of the Dead” remake or “28 Days Later” or the already dead rising up zombies like in "Night of the Living Dead" are just pure fantasy nonsense.
-----
I thought the 'zombies' in 28 Days Later were really just humans infected with a crazy angry-monkey virus - hence what I assumed was death from eventual starvation since other humans are (I'm assuming, I'm no expert zombie-ist) a relatively poor food source - and therefore not truly undead at all?
@#4
David Cronenberg made a movie called Rabid where the lead was rabid and transmitted the disease through a vampiric penis lodged in her armpit. The victims were then reduced to zombies and continued to pass the disease along. The zombies needed the fuel (in the form of blood and, presumably the oxygen around them).
That the reason I've always preferred the NON-Dead Zombie movies. Movies like 28 Days Later and 28 Weeks Later. When it a diseased brain causing the Zombie behavior its less implausible.
Still surprised to find myself writing "Spiegel," though.
There's a bad pun in there somewhere about mirror cells malfunctioning but I can't quite get it to work.
It would if you consider the concern people had in previous centuries (in the UK) over being buried alive - and the various crackpottish coffin devices to deal with this. Also, I was going to propose the two things already mentioned by others, viz: the original drug-induced zombis of vodoun [spellings intentional] and the distinct possibility of parasite-controlled zombies. Modern-day zombies include vCJD victims and almost anyone excessively drugged (for the convenience of handlers rather than genuine medical need) in what's laughably called the care system.
Zombies, I'm sorry to have to say, are not imaginary at all. What I am about to tell you is absolutely true, not a spoof or a goof. There are practitioners in Haiti who have developed a neurotoxic potion -- I believe it contains frog skin as well as vegetable components -- which puts victims into a cognitively debilitated and highly compliant state. They are then sold into slavery in distant villages. I have spoken with Haitian acquaintances who tell me this still goes on.
Not a myth, anthropologists have confirmed this.
PZ doesn't believe zombies are real. I guess he's never taught an 8:00 AM class.
I know i already mentioned PCP... but here is some angel dust http://img189.echo.cx/img189/7225/facepeel2it.jpg Peeled off his own face and fed it to his dog... a faceless crazy running around without a face... not to mention the superhuman strength the skinny little crackheads get... if that were transferable and coupled with something (i suggested rabies) that makes you want to bite people we could have zombies...
#45 "a faceless crazy running around without a face"
redundant... faceless crazy running around with his bloody skull showing, that works a little better
Ah, I see. So there are "zombies" and then there are "Zombies" and then you got your ZOMBIES.
This is starting to smell like philosophy (interthreadual joke).
Thanks for posting this! I'm actually now in the process of trying to round up some friends of mine to go catch the show.
Sounds too much like Apologetics. That said, it could be quite entertaining.
Which is awesome: the zombies or the shotguns?
Shotguns are awesome. Putting small holes in paper targets? Nah, I'd rather blow something out of the sky. Relax, I'm talking about something made of clay. However, if zombies come flying by after I yell, "Pull" then it's their own damn fault.
P.S. Did you know that Chinese zombies hop?
One of these days I really want to get a low rider and equip it with the hydraulics so it'll hop and I'll have it airbrushed with a Chinese zombie and let people figure it out on their own.
cervantes @ 43
Don't be sorry, but don't expect me to belive that nonsense either. Coming from Haiti, the most depressed fifth world shit hole with voodoo mentality, it's a wonder that anything real emerges from that basket case half of Hispaniola.
I have often taught 8am courses. What convinces me that zombies are not real is that none of the students in those classes show all that much interest in my brains.
@#45: Oh fuck off, Tim Janger. We're sick and tired of your imaginary bullshit.
Dear Holbach:
Haiti is indeed a very poor country, and few of its citizens have access to modern education. There are historical reasons for this which have to do with various factors including U.S. neocolonialism (and actual colonialism -- the U.S. ruled Haiti as a military colony for a time) and ecological collapse. However, the people who live there are actual human beings and they are just as good as you are. They also have an ancient and complex culture, which includes a religio-mystical system called voodoo which in addition to various supernatural beliefs (no more or less absurd than those which the majority of well educated Americans subscribe to) includes the use of various biological potions for both healing and evil. As in all shamanistic systems that use biologicals, these really do have potent biological effects, and the zombie phenomenon is all too real.
Regardless of how you feel about black people.
PZ, you should bring a shotgun to class, just in case. You never know when the zombies might get restless.
PZ (by way of Bruce Campbell): Alright you Primitive Screwheads, listen up! You see this? This... is my boomstick!
Any relation to the Werewolves of London?
Awooooooooooooo! Draw blood!
No kings,
Robert
P.S. There used to be bumper stickers (probably other media, too) in the wake of Jerry Garcia's death that read "I miss Jerry." I miss Warren.
@ #39, Jay.
And don't forget Croenenburg's first and very controversial
"Shivers" aka "they came from within" that had parasite worm creatures turning people in a high-rise into sex-zombies that would do anyone to pass on the parasites. anyone. ewwwww.
"make love to me... kisskisskissssssss"
has anyone seen the whole thing? i've only seen bits.
Tim is being satiric; Jim, on the other hand, propogates imaginary bullshit.
Brains good.
Shotgun bad.
Tim good.
Jim douchebag troll.
OK, that does it, I'm going to go buy Resident Evil 5 just so I can keep up on the latest anti-zombie tactics.
We'll know we are screwed when the zombies form their own religious groups and start demanding preferential parking at restaurants.
Bad joke time:
What do vegan zombies eat?
GRAAAIIIIIINNNNNSSSSSS!!!!!
i apologize in advance....
to apologize in advance don't you need to put that before the thing you are apologizing for?
I have both Shivers and Rabid on VHF. My wife and I watch them when we need a good laugh, both cornball SciFi (especially '50s stuff) and horror can be quite uplifting.
Yeah, I know. But people who haven't been following these threads the last couple of days may not. And I don't like him giving drugs a bad name.
PZ Myers Author Profile Page | April 9, 2009 2:53 PM
I have often taught 8am courses. What convinces me that zombies are not real is that none of the students in those classes show all that much interest in my brains."
You mean they were only interested in your body?? You shouldn't wear those low-cut shirts to class.
Valis opined,
Hell, yeah!
Remember kids, drugs don't kill people, people taking drugs kill people. Oh, and drugs kill people.
@63 have you read the shit Tim says? I'm pretty sure he is on drugs, which I guess could give them a bad name. Is that the way you meant it?
Is a stylishly dead gay male an Abercrombie Zombie?
PZ, if you're flexible, perhaps you could debate Dr. Charles Jackson at the real U. of M., or even in Morris. I understand he ate one of your proteges for lunch. He's no Dr. Jeffery Simmons, so you'll probably cower behind this excuse.
@#56 - c-law: I haven't seen all of Shivers; just bits from the interwebs. I watched Rabid mostly for Marilyn Chambers, though.
So muscles are of no use when thought of simply as cables?
I love end of the world zombie movies, but I hate that none of them offer a believable premise as to how the zombie works. 28 days later was good - the zombies were just as strong as crazy people and they were still alive. But then they ruined that movie by making the gestation time for the virus so quick. If they just made it airborne, they would get all same death but I guess the chain reaction of bloddy rampage in the crowd scenes would have been less terrifying.
PZ - We at the Zombie Anti Defamation League have long supposed that Willpower alone is the motivational source of Zombie functions, however we also recognize that is not a scientific assumption. Our evidence is largely anecdotal, as many Zombies describe having to figure out all the mechanics of biology, but without the benefit of an unconscious mind driving autonomic functions.
We'll put the word out to our Post Vital network, and see if we can generate any volunteers for research. Please do not be alarmed if many come by, Zombies are very social and civic minded by nature.
Oh, and please do not refer to Zombies as "dead" - that's vitalist prejudice in our eyes. We prefer the term "post vital"
Thank you for allowing me this brief consciousness raising session. We wish you well.
Why invent fictional undead zombies when we're already fighting individuals with brain infections that cause them to attack and attempt to spread the infection?
Stupid zombie Flanders.
ZADL,
Instead of using "post vital", which is a name that indicates what the zombie used to be, maybe "meta vital" would be a better way to refer to yourselves since you are outside of normal life but functionally similar.
Marcus (#59) wrote: "OK, that does it, I'm going to go buy Resident Evil 5 just so I can keep up on the latest anti-zombie tactics."
Bad idea: Resident Evil 5 just trains you in how annoying having a sidekick in a zombie film is; see the video review here. Well worth your time! :)
I highly recommend Capcom's "Dead Rising" as the ultimate zombie-training game. Face it: we all know we're heading to the mall when the zombies rise up...
i know its been said before but...
zom⋅bie
/ˈzɒmbi/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [zom-bee] Show IPA
–noun
A dead body that has been brought back to life by a supernatural force;
also brings to mind that song by the Cranberries:
"It's in your head--ed, in you---r he-eh-eh-ed, ZOHmmmBE"
something like that
Oh yeah?! Check out the five scientific reasons a zombie apocalypse could actually happen: http://www.cracked.com/article_15643_5-scientific-reasons-zombie-apocal…
Hey, I remember that movie! It was notable for starring Marilyn Chambers, with most of her clothes on most of the time for a change.
Oddly, it was running on cable at the same time as another "genetically-engineered pathogen escapes from the lab and causes a plague" flick which was also set in Quebec.
Apparently Montreal is to deadly mutant epidemics as Tokyo is to big rubbery monsters.
sfanetti
That is an excellent suggestion, and one that we will seriously consider at our next informal assembly. Thank you.
PZ, if you're flexible, perhaps you could debate Dr. Charles Jackson at the real U. of M., or even in Morris. I understand he ate one of your proteges for lunch.
Ahem.
I am merely a high school science teacher, but having viewed Dr. Jackson in action, I can assure you that I would not hesitate to 'debate' him.
In fact, I'm pretty confident that I could crush him. The fellow essentially concedes the evidence, then makes the trivial claim that some version of creationism exists that is compatible with the evidence. This is classic pseudoscience, that amounts to 'science can not disprove the possibility of such-and-such a scenario not based upon natural causes.'
Well, duh. Science can't disprove the claim, for example, that disease is caused by invisible/undetectable leprechauns. Ultimately, the issue is not what nonfalsifiable account can be concocted after the fact to rescue propositions held on faith; the question is what falsifiable theory based upon natural causes proves itself useful, powerful and productive in advance. It would be a ridiculously simple matter to show that the evidence admitted by Jackson was predicted by evolutionary theory. Game, set and match.
leprechauns cause leprosy... and leprosy is in the bible... SOOOO... yea
You just have to surrender to the premise and go with the story, because there's no way it can be rationalized.
Not unlike most religious cult narratives we could mention, you mean?
Sorry if somebody's said it already...I skipped to the chase...
One of these days I really want to get a low rider and equip it with the hydraulics so it'll hop and I'll have it airbrushed with a Chinese zombie and let people figure it out on their own.
Ever see that cable show, "Livin' The Low Life"? that chica es muy caliente, amigo. Hijole!~
PZ, thanks for posting this.
I love zombies. And I love neuroscience.
cervantes @ 53
My opinion and comments would still apply and be warranted even if Haiti were a white country. The religious mentality is the overriding factor in Haiti and influences it ruling class and only enhances the superstions of the population and thereby stultifies economic health. There is no prejuidice in this matter, only the reality of religion ruling an impoverished country to the detriment of its people.
♪Saw a zombie drinking an IPA outside Faneuil Hall....
And his skin was putrid.
Moooaaan, Zombies of Boston.
Mooo-oa-oan.
Huh! Eat brains!♫
I was a zombie once, back in my college film days. (Canadians will recognise the spoof immediately.)
You can only see my hairy zombie arms in the trailer, but I played a TV cryptozoologist who got a little too close to his work.
Holbach @ 85
I think it's more that you're coming over as somewhat pompous in attributing the situation in Haiti primarily to their wacked out beliefs -- as opposed to what happens when larger, more powerful countries sticking their fat fingers in and tamper with things to the extreme detriment of the people who live there. Assuming you come from one of those more powerful countries it's rather sticking your nose in the air and saying 'oh, they'd be fine if only they were more enlightened.. like me!'
Zombies are so misunderstood. They're really fun-loving. If you don't believe me see Zombie Jamboree a short film from Spike Lee featuring Rockapella.
Assuming you come from one of those more powerful countries it's rather sticking your nose in the air and saying 'oh, they'd be fine if only they were more enlightened.. like me!'
Werd, brudda...For reasons analogous with the why kapitalismus requires unemployment, a kapitalistic international economy requires basket-cases.
CJ @ 87
I reread my comment again, and for the life of me I cannot glean anything resembling your disparaging interpretation. If I were living in New Zealand or Norway and staying as I am in character, I would make the very same comment if I "come from one of those more powerful countries". The second part of your last sentence is ludricous in assuming I am more enlightened than those I describe. Am I suppose to ascribe to a benighted country qualities which they do not have just to assuage your feelings for the supposed underdog? I will not, and neither will I admire your phony attempt to defend all whether they deserve it or not. My statement may have been harsh, but it was offered in the light of reality which cannot be overlooked or dismissed. Haiti has been an independent country since 1804, and no foreign power has precipitated or caused its current condition. If you want to interpret its problems as that caused by its people which I doubt you will have the guts to do, then what other factor besides religion holds the country in such dire straits?
Hey, don't just write it off like that.
Gary Habermas and William Lane Craig have both made excellent cases for resurrection under at least some circumstances. Only a fool completely ignorant of philosophy could deny the obvious cases of divinely assisted reanimation procedures, as detailed in the New Testament.
How does it work, you ask? Isn't that just like you verificationists? You small minded fools always think 'proof' is so important. Philosophy has gone far beyond simple notions of truth and falsity. One can only hope those benighted scientists catch up, sometime. But then, they've always been a couple steps behind us clever philosophers.
Oh well, I believe I'll retire to my study, and work on my explanation for why atoms can't exist. Oh, and I nearly forgot about my theorem that everything is made of water.That will put those Elementalist fools in their place.
...
/theologian
Sorry. I still had some of the residue on my brain. I think I'm clean, now.
Holbach - it wasn't my intent to disparage what you were saying, I don't disagree with your assertion that religion is a factor. I don't think it's a particularly significant one, however - I suggest it's symptomatic rather than a cause of the problems in Haiti. cervantes mentioned several things - colonialism, foreign debt (including from purchasing French recognition for the independence you mentioned). The US first occupied the country some time in the early 1900s, nor have they refrained from tinkering with the government of the country since then. From such a perspective it does seem arrogant to me to claim that such widespread ignorance and superstition in the general populace is the primary cause of their misery when so much implies a whole host of far-ranging factors and influences, most of which your average Joe-Haitian doesn't have much influence over anyway.
In my Neurobiology class at UNC we discussed zombification. Wade Davis (from Harvard I believe) went to Haiti to study the practice of Voodoo. The Zombie Myth is very real and related to the use of Tetrodotoxin (TTX) which comes from pufferfish. The strong neurotoxin causes paralysis, which is mistaken for death. After the family buries the "deceased", the shaman come to dig him up and use the new "zombie" as a slave. The fact that these "Zombie" would sometimes escape and potentially wander into their hometowns leads to the zombie invasion stories complete with the staggered gait and lack of facial expressions. A similar effect occurs in after eating raw pufferfish in a Japanese Sushi Bar.
I think the analysis attributing Haiti's social and economic problems to religion is flawed at best. Have you seen the Dominican Republic, on the same island? Lots of people in the churches, similar poverty, but overall much higher quality of life due to the different policies pursued by their governments.
Check out this image from NASA. You can see, from space, which country is pursuing wise conservation policies and thereby protecting their economic future and which country has been devastated by resource exploitation, disease and crime. Haitians and Dominicans believe similar things about God, for the most part. It could be argued that Dominicans have been better stewards, which is about the best you can hope for in a nation named after a saint!
Off topic, but very cool. ABC evening news had a great story on cuttlefish camouflage, including stripes and spectacular tentacle posturing to match the angle of the stripes. Very cool. Video available here
OT: I found this (old) article today about an immortal cnidarian, the Turritopsis nutricula. It's a good start for taking over the world.
Link: http://8e.devbio.com/preview_article.php?ch=2&id=6
No zombie thread is complete without this http://www.jonathancoulton.com/mp3/Re%20Your%20Brains.mp3
Wade Davis wrote a book on his research in Haiti called The Serpent and the Rainbow. It is really quite good. I've heard they made a terrible movie of it, but I haven't seen it.
His other book One River is a bit slower, but still good.
Man, some of those scientists were nuts. Or brave. Or whatever. One in particular (forget the name) would go into an isolated area, find the local population and their head shaman/healer, and try to get (usually him) to make whatever was the most sacred potion they had (almost always involving psychoactive plants). Then he would drink it.
Wow.
I haven't yet seen a mention of that TV-Movie a couple years ago where the dead soldiers from Iraq rise to seek vengeance on the neocons. I can't recall the name. It was supposed to be the first in a series of prime-time horror, but I never heard anything more about it.
Danger! 50,000 Zombies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnNIs4YKtZM
Y'know, just in case you only have half an hour or so before they break down your door. (Or, well, just in case you liked Shaun of the Dead)
Hmmm...exploring the science of zombies....
I'm assuming we mean horror movie zombies and not Haitian zombies...
But anyways, dead flesh wouldn't be reanimated. But a virus that impedes specific neurobiological processes we take for granted could arise, creating "rage" or "living zombies" ala 28 days later.
Running zombies always freaked the fuck out of me. Just an aside.
Worst thing was them not even bothering to edit out the spring boards in house of the dead
I think the most important scientific question is to work out why zombies don't eat each other. Once we know that we could (a) walk among them unharmed (b) release some hormone or something so that they turn on each other.
Also, could there be a way to reactivate higher brain functions, so that a zombified person's mind is restored? That way the cause of zombies could be also be put to good use to bring someone back from the dead successfully.
And another thing - in zombie plague films we never seem to see zombie animals (there's something like it in I am Legend, but they're not really zombies). Surely primates at least would be susceptible?
Bartholomew - Assuming movie zombies mostly use smell to hunt would account for their not attacking each other (they put out some pheromone-equivalent to advertise that they're not good eating) and why they seem to congregate near collections of humans.
Another 'zombie physics' thought. At least with Earthly biochemistry, sustained high-energy motion tends to use aerobic (i.e. using oxygen) reactions to generate the energy. Zombies do seem to breathe a little (moans and such, which may just be to move air past whatever they're using to smell), but they don't have blood circulating. They'd pretty much have to be anaerobic... hence slow.
Of course, alligators have a heart that doesn't pump as efficiently as mammalian hearts, and hence don't have much endurance. They can't do sustained runs... but they are 'sit and wait' predators. For about 30 seconds or so, they can be scary fast.
I never saw a movie where the zombies were slow and weak most of the time, but had short bursts of speed. That would be kind of cool, and make a tiny amount of sense.
Say what you like about Dubya, at least he recognised the threat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoXgRtDysLY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ei%2D…
Wade Davis's TTX zombie hypothesis is far from universally accepted.
From Wikipedia (yeah, yeah, I know, but I'm too lazy to get the primary references, and they are cited in the article):
"The strictly scientific criticism of Davis’ zombie project has focused on the claims about the chemical composition of the “zombie powder”. Several samples of the powder were analyzed for TTX levels by experts in 1986. They reported[10] that only “insignificant traces of tetrodotoxin [were found] in the samples of ‘zombie powder’ which were supplied for analysis by Davis” and that “it can be concluded that the widely circulated claim in the lay press to the effect that tetrodotoxin is the causal agent in the initial zombification process is without factual foundation”. Davis’ claims were subsequently defended by other scientists doing further analyses[11] and these findings were criticized in turn for poor methodology and technique by the original skeptics.[12] Aside from the question of whether or not “zombie powder” contains significant amounts of TTX, the underlying concept of “tetrodotoxin zombification” has also been questioned more directly on a physiological basis.[13] TTX, which blocks sodium channels on the neural membrane, produces numbness, slurred speech, and possibly paralysis or even respiratory failure and death in severe cases. It is not known to produce the trance-like or “mental slave” state typical of zombies in Haitian mythology, or Davis’ descriptions."
One way to solve the dehydration/starvation problem would be to fill all the cells with water retaining sugars (like cryptobiosis in tardigrades etc) then kill or freeze all the unwanted cells.
That solves most of the problems with zombies. Add a retroviral vector and you get an instant* zombie!
*Well, it might take some time for the infection spread to every single cell.
Apparently Zombies tried to attack Woodie Harrelson
The event last night was awesome! The talk was informative and hilarious. Schlozman even gave you a nod, PZ -- noting your skepticism on the plausibility of zombies (quoted this post, in fact). It was also great to get to see this film on the big screen.