Shorter Ken Ham: Other museums have dinosaur models with saddles, so why does everyone pick on my "museum"?. Ham seems to have been scrambling to save face by finding a few other places that put out exhibits of dinosaurs with saddles, but he, as usual, misses the point.
Yes, other places will display dinosaurs as fun exhibits for the kids, and I have no problem with that. The natural history museum at the University of Utah had a talking dinosaur out front — throw a coin in its mouth, and it would roar and thank you for your donation, and my kids were always pestering me for my spare change. That's fine; they knew it was for fun, and when you went upstairs, you saw serious displays of real fossils with accurate ages and relationships posted by them, and no one argued that they could talk, or that people coexisted with them, or that they could be saddled and ridden.
Ken Ham doesn't do that. Right after he blubbers that he is being unfairly mocked, this is what he has to say:
By the way, we do believe that dinosaurs and humans have co-existed; I am only pointing out here how these evolutionists can be inconsistent--and also misrepresent what is in our Creation Museum. The Minnesota professor we mentioned above knows that our saddled dinosaur is in a children's play area and is not a museum exhibit. Even though there is a sign next to the sculpted dinosaur that says it is only for children to get on ("wear and tear" is lessened that way), this atheist professor--consistent with his belief that he lives in a universe without purpose and standards of any kind--felt that he could disregard the child-only sign (even after he signed an agreement--drafted by the tour leader of his atheist group--that he would obey the museum's policies rules).
Kenny baby. That's the thing: your "museum" pretends, in defiance of all the credible evidence, that dinosaurs and humans co-existed. That's what makes your whole preposterous edifice a great big joke — not that you have kiddie rides, but that the dinosaur with a saddle is so perfectly emblematic of the whole Creation "Museum" experience. That's what makes this picture funny.
(Thanks to Steve O'Kane for the cleaned-up, polished version of this image)
We aren't laughing at the dinosaur with a saddle, Ken. We're laughing at you, and the fact that you are so oblivious to the absurdity.
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My guess is secretly Ken Ham wanted piglets with saddles for his museum (he goes bareback at home).
Creationist goes boohoo.
I think his point is that while he is ridiculous, the dinosaur with the saddle is not.
Correction duly noted, Ken.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
Waaahhhhh. Poor baby. Sounds like he needs a bottle of 180 proof hooch, and a map and GPS system so he could find a clue about reality. That isn't found in a book of mythology.
He missed the point by about a thousand kilometers right there...
Really. I used to ride a giant caterpillar at the mall when I was a kid. And Papa Smurf's back. Doesn't mean I thought giant friendly caterpillars existed. Or that the smurfs did.
Riding dinosaurs isn't a fantasy..of course the reality of dinosaur riding wouldn't fit into the fundie world view.
http://www.image-archeology.com/Caswston_Ostrich_Farm_So_Pasadena_CA_Ri…
Are you expecting Ken to think or to reason? Now who's being naive and unreasonable? If it looks like science, it therefor must be science. It only has to vaguely look like science and the rest is faith.
Jesus and a dinosaur.
Right, because Ken Ham has never sat on it.
It's really telling that he is still adopting the righteous indignation at Breaking The Rules instead of finding fault with the arguments against him.
Should I ever find myself compelled to visit the Creation Museum, I will probably wear this
Wait, wait, wait.
Is he really saying what I think he's saying here?
He's saying that he believes that humans and dinosaurs co-existed. But he objects to the idea that the dinosaur with the saddle is representative of his museum.
So, if I'm understanding him right, his objection must be that his beliefs are being misrepresented because he doesn't believe that saddles existed when humans and dinosaurs were living together on the earth before the flood.
That's the only conclusion I can come to from this bizarre posting.
News flash to Ken Ham - it's not the saddle that is causing the mockery.
So...what he's saying is:
PZ Myers (ATHEIST!!!111) broke the rules and sat on a kiddie dinosaur.
Christians don't break the rules and sit on kiddie dinosaurs.
Therefore, God exists.
Is that the gist of what he's saying?
What the hambone is saying is he wants everyone to believe him regardless of the evidence.
He wants everyone to accept his faith and his myths as their reality. Colossal gall and a colossal fool.
The whole damn "museum" is a children's play area!
I think we are placing far too much assumption on Ken's ability to think.
Ken talks and writes, but he doesn't actually think.
Come on you folk, cut the guy some slack, eh.
Just try to imagine what it must be like to have a mind like Ken Ham's. The poor fellah must suffer from cognitive dissonance, but then always falls back to his start position, i.e. believing in one of a set of mutually exclusive superstitions derived from the mythologies of Bronze Age Mesopotamian goat-herding nomads. Jeezus, it must be like living in a nightmare.
By the way, Ken Ham = Know Pork.
#11
Sounds about right.
#8
I agree. It's most telling that instead of engaging with any argument or providing any facts, he's basically just accusing PZ for being mean and causing undue wear and tear on his mechanical dino.
I mean, seriously:
PZ: "The existence of your 'museum' is a disgrace to all true science and your opinions are founded on distortions and ignorance"
Ken: "But you broke my toy... or, you didn't, but you COULD HAVE."
Gee Ken, that completely distracts us from the fact that you're a lying sack of shit.
"That's what makes your whole preposterous edifice a great big joke."
Does this make the dinosaur species 'Preposterosaurus ridiculous'?
I posted this earlier today in another thread because it is so unbelievably cool, but it is far more appropriate in this one. Get your own dinosaur! You don't have to go to some shady museum, just ride a Triceratops in the comfort of your own home. Come on, you know you want one.
Oooh, bad athiest! No desert for you, young man!
It's the cracker-is-theft argument from the Great Desecration. Ham wouldn't be nearly so upset about PZ riding his dinosaur if he wasn't doing it to make fun of the "museum".
Ken Ham, proudly wrong and making a mint telling lies to religious followers.
Not only should he be mocked but his followers need to know why he is lying -- to get their money. I doubt that Ken believes a word of the creationist nonsense he spouts. He's in it for the money, status and power among religious fools, nothing else.
Wait, is Ken Ham saying that he doesn't think you are someone's child? That he thinks you sprang up spontaneously? Or were manufactured in some laboratory? Or created like Adam and Eve by an Intelligent Designer?
...why yes Ken, riding a crappy fiberglass dinosaur against the rules is definately proof that PZ is an ebil, baby-eating, murdering, law-disregarding monster.
I think someone needs to alert those profiling guys at the FBI that we have found a new way to identify future sociopaths. All we need to do is look for illicit dinosaur antics in their past.
(This one goes out to you, Ken Ham)
Rollin', rollin', rollin'
Rollin', rollin', rollin'
Rollin', rollin', rollin'
Rollin', rollin', rollin'
Sweet ride!
Rollin', rollin', rollin'
Though my stash is swollen
Keep them dollars rollin'
Sweet ride!
Rain and wind and weather
Come from the ether
Wishin' my Book was by my side.
All the things I'm missin',
Like logic, thought, and kissin',
Are useless with God right by my side
CHORUS
Have 'em on, mess 'em up
Get their cash, kick 'em out
Have 'em on, mess 'em up
Sweet ride!
Dumb 'em down, bring 'em in,
Bring 'em in, dumb 'em down,
Dumb 'em down, bring 'em in
Sweet ride!
Keep movin', movin', movin'
Science disapprovin'
Keep them dollars movin'
Sweet ride!
Don't try to understand 'em
Just dodge, hose, and brand 'em
Soon we'll be living high and wide.
My hearts calculatin'
Dis-sent-ers will see Satan,
I'm baitin' them all to pimp my ride.
Sweet ride!
Sweet ride!
..and if you don't pull your socks up and clean your room young man there'll be no other biomes for a whole week either!
A quick search shows this blog by a volunteer at the museum, complete with a picture of her riding the Triceratops. She is definitely over the age of 5.
Do you think she got in trouble for it? Hm...
Ken Ham,
You are a con-man who lies to children for a living.
Your "museum" is a factory of child abuse.
You know that all kids love dinosaurs and that they are more likely to reject your lies if it means that they can’t. You use dinosaurs like a pedophile uses candy.
That is why we don't like you.
We mock you and your "museum" in order to draw attention to your crimes.
What you do is reprehensible to the point of nausea.
Here's another museum where on may find evidence humans and dinosaurs lived together:
http://www.thismodernworld.com/pages/gra/gra_cBTbedrock.html
I understand what Ken Ham's getting at here - he issued a rule stating that his own property (the completely idiotic representation of biblical times that is a saddled triceratops) was not to be ridden by those other than children.
Mock as you will, but the museum has a right to dictate how it's property will be used - you can mock it all you like, but if the museum says you can't ride it, well..Don't ride it?
It is an awesome picture though, I just wished PZ made it with permission.
I just love it that the ideology that, in ken's mind, allows the most terrible crime against humanity to amount to nothing, the scientific worldview that lead directly to the near total genocide of the Jewish people and the philosophy that plunges all of humanity into existential dispair leads directly to PZ disrespecting a sign in his museum.
If PZ is such a threat to humanity, how is this the worst crime you can come up with?
I'm quite sure that PZ like many of us read the sign, realised that neither Ken nor the museum command any respect and climbed on!
Good one Carlie.
I still get a kick over the fact that he still doesn't have the balls to post your name PZ.
It just goes to show that atheists have no standar... wait a minute.
Ken Ham really is a whiny moron. No amount of complainin' is going to make PZ not sit on the triceratops. Perhaps this is his way of praying to God to alter the fabric of reality to make it so PZ never sits on it? Jesus fuck get over it, it happened, your silly little "museum" is a shrine to absurdity and people are going to mercilessly mock you because somehow you think you can condense 4.5 billion years of geological history into just 6000.
It's nice to have Ken around. He helps us see how actual science makes so much sense.
I wasn't there, but by all accounts the museum security was unusually high during that visit (people getting hassled for wearing T-shirts, thrown out for filming, license plates being photographed, etc).
No-one objected to PZ riding the dinosaur at the time?
If riding a dinosaur is good enough for Fred Flintstone it should be good enough for PZ. Ken Ham needs to complain to Fred about setting a bad example for PZ.
Umkomasia
If my entire worldview was composed of a wafer thin tissue of lies stitched together with strands of wishful thinking, I'd be pretty wary about who's blog I linked to as well!
This probably Ken's one and only smart move
PZ:
You left out the bit where it entices you to eat of the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge ...
Screw Fred Flintstone
If it's good enough for Jesus...
Missing the point. Ham isn't upset that PZ rode the dinosaur, he's upset that PZ is mocking his cherished beliefs and using the sign as an excuse to belittle PZ for doing so.
Your concern is noted.
Ken gets to lie about the history of the world and make money off of that lie, basically stealing the money of other deluded fools and their ignorant followers who don't know any better.
And yet PZ is a bad guy b/c he climbed up on a saddled dino and made fun of the whole silly enterprise? Um, okay.
I wonder if Ken's read PZ's review of the Dino and Jesus Funland, er, Creation Museum. I'm thinking no, b/c the PZ on Triceratops was far from the most scathing part of the whole entry.
Nice lyrics, Nick.
Gives the title "Blazing Saddles" new meaning, eh?
#36 "This probably Ken's one and only smart move"
Ken Ham is actually very good conman.
Here he is attempting to give the appearance of legitimacy by countering his critics.
However, he will never actually address the merit of the criticism but instead will attack the critic. In this case an Ad Hominem with an argument by victimization.
I.E. “Not only is he a bad person but he personally hurt me. Therefore you shouldn’t listen to him.”
Of course this is a false argument and he knows it. He knows that if any of the people that he has on the hook actually investigated the criticism then his con would fail. He will therefore refuse to provide his listeners with any help to look things up themselves. Even going so far as never actually naming his critics. In fact, if real critics didn’t exist he would probably make some up. The sock-puppets would then conveniently voice the most common criticisms so that he could “counter” them and at the same time make himself appear to be a victim of unfair attacks.
I think it really helps to understand Ken Ham’s motives if you picture him as a turn-of-the-century conman selling “tonic” from the back of a wagon.
While you're on the topic, I recently posted pics of their "Natural Selection is not Evolution" display from the group trip last Summer. And no, I didn't ride the dinosaur ;)
Ken Ham is complaining about PZ desecrating his sacred statue. But that makes him an idolator by his own religion's rules, and so he will be spending eternity in hell. Bad luck, Ken.
I would think that Ken Ham would be mollified by the fact that PZ obviously got some good use from the photograph, posting it on his blog many times, and providing more publicity to the museum. It's not as if he just jumped carelessly on the dinosaur for the heck of it, contributing to wear and tear, for no positive result. No, the moment was saved forever by the camera, and has provoked many a happy smile. That is a mitigating circumstance, which surely ought to be weighed against a small rule infraction.
The fact that Ken Ham doesn't particularly like being mocked shouldn't make any difference, to a kind heart like Ham's. People are enjoying what he created. He really should not be so self-seeking.
Be gracious, Ken.
I understand what Ken Ham's getting at here - he issued a rule stating that his own property (the completely idiotic representation of biblical times that is a saddled triceratops) was not to be ridden by those other than children.
That would be a valid argument if we were all soulless automatons.
But --- and Ken Ham would be the first to admit this --- we live in a Fallen World, and the temptation to have your picture taken riding a triceratops is just too great for many people to resist. In legal jargon, the triceratops is an "attractive nuisance". (Well, technically it isn't, but it ought to be!)
If Ken Ham doesn't want people like me to ride his triceratops, then he needs to surround it with an electrified fence and towers with armed guards in them.
"...with an electrified fence and towers with armed guards in them."
It seems security doesn't like people photographing things there, and various registration plates get recorded. Maybe he took a page or two from Orwell?
Good ~*~Christians~*~ would never commit such a moral transgression and ride the kiddie dinosaur. Shame on you, atheist professor!
foehammer:
No. You are completely missing both Ham's and PZ's point. Ham is complaining that PZ is misrepresenting the "good stuff" in the museum by focusing on the saddled dinosaur. PZ's point is that if the contents of the "museum" weren't so ridiculous in their own right, the saddled dinosaur would not be an issue. As it is, the saddled dinosaur is a perfect metaphor for the contents of Ham's "museum".
Oh, gimme a break #29 (foehammer).
Go back and look at the posts from the event itself. The sign said "Not recommended for children over 8" -- or something very close. It didn't, and doesn't say "KIDS ONLY", "No ADULTS, please.", "max weigh 200 lbs" or even "Adults can only be photographed on this dinosaur who don't criticize my 'museum', and have explicit permission from the Lord of this domain, Ken Ham."
Ham's problem is this attacks the false dichotomy underlying his Entire worldview. Either the bible is literally true, or nothing is.
Is this "museum" even legal? Everyone has of course the right to express any belief, even if this belief is unusual or provocative, but can you really spread knowingly untrue "theories" under the good names of science and museum?
If it can be shown that the people behind this lunacy actually are making things up as they go along, then it is also clear that they are willfully decieving children and young students. To make it worse, they do it by stealing the authority of real museums.
By the way, they must be reasonably intelligent to create and run a fraud this size, and any even remotely intelligent person who studies the history of earth must realize the incorrectness of their position.
Doc Piglet:
There is a lot of stupid in the world, Ken, and you're trying to increase it. Nastiness.
I'm reminded of something I read on Clients from Hell:
I never noticed it before, but the pic of PZ reminds me a lot of Slim Pickins riding the bomb at the end of Dr. Strangelove.
[pictures on blog linked by Carlie (#26)] Are waffle irons mentioned in Genesis? That vegetarian dinosaur sure looks like it is eating some kind of elaborate waffle with a barnacle growing on it. Maybe its just a extra-non-slip banana.
Context, Ken, context.
Want a laugh? Anyone notice how the names are alphabetized on that page under the heading "Other Speakers?" I'd say it's back to grade school for our Kenny. The nitwit.
Yawn. Hissy-fit re-run.
The first time this was brought up, it was pointed out that the sign says "Photo opportunity / For children 12 and under".
It does not specify what "12" means (12 feet? 12 tons?), nor clearly forbid those over 12.
And even if it did mean "12 years"...
Ham likes to teach children to "question" evolution by having them demand "Were you there?" [when the universe and/or earth began] to anyone who suggests that YEC is false.
Was Ham "there" at PZ's birth?
Caine at #52,
I had no idea that site existed! I used to work in catalog production . . . reading that site produces a mixture of goofy laughter and reminiscent utterances of Dr. Zachary Smith's "Oh, the pain . . . the pain!"
Thanks!
. . . I think . . .
Still learning,
Robert
You're not the only one; see the pictures towards the end of "Tales of the 300"
Bribase,
I agree. I never said it wasn't smart not linking to this blog. Just amusing and indicative of a lack of testicular fortitude.
Would it be more appropriate to call the museum the "Creationist Museum" since it is all about the beliefs of Creationism?
To call it the "Creation Museum" might lend credence to the cause....IMHO
Aaarrggghhh!
Must. Stop. Reading. Clients from Hell.
Gah! I remember conversations exactly like these.
Sorry. Sorry. I'll be o.k. Need a shot of whisky. Just walk away. Walk away. Breathe.
*exit, mumbling, into storm on the heath, attended by a fool*
Still learning,
Robert
Desert Son, OM @ 57:
:D There are some serious pits of stupidity there. Too much of it is familiar to me, being an artist.
Jesus Christ, Ken, isn't there some sort of deity you could be praying to about this kind of piddling shit?
God may have to listen to you, but we sure as shit don't.
Idiot.
I just skimmed through the report of the SSA visit on Ham’s blog:
“A young man (apparently from Canada) was asked to turn his atheist T-shirt inside out”
As a Canadian, I’m not sure whether to be insulted, amused or proud. Mostly, I’m just baffled. Was the reporter surprised because Canadians are often regarded as particularly polite and thought the shirt out of character for a Canuck? Or was it a matter of “what do you expect from a foreigner”? Maybe it was “he’d get away with it at that godless old-earth Royal Tyrell Museum, but he ain’t a gonna do it here”. Gotta pop up to the RTM one day soon & look for dinosaurs with saddles.
And to make it all perfect, she's riding sidesaddle, like a real lady.
*pauses to snerkle
Well Yippy-kiyayy cowboy!
Speaking of Creationist nutters, Colorado now has a "religious bill of rights" bill that has been proposed in their state legislature (not sure what that entails as I'm not in Colorado). It's mostly officially allowing things already allowed under the first amendment (religious garb/greetings/etc), but with two provisions that could allow teachers to teach creationism and get away with it.
Discussion on Bad Astronomy, with link to the full text of the bill: http://mblogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/tag/religious-bill-of-r…
I don't buy the claim that adults are prohibited because they cause less wear and tear than children. Kids would cause more wear and it can clearly support an adult. I think there's an administrative reason they don't want adults on the thing. Why the false testimony, Ham?
FFS. Didn't this happen like 6 internet years ago? He's STILL bitching about it?
PZ, You'll score more points if you keep your right arm straight and higher.
By the way, this is 'Merica. I'll bet some wee chillin have been on that ceratops that outweigh PZ by 20kg.
*darts back into the thread, shakes fist at Caine, darts back to Clients from Hell in state of shock*
Some days I'm stunned that business actually gets done. At all.
Still learning,
Robert
Desert Son, OM @ 70:
I'm sorry! It is like being caught in a trainwreck. I recently had to to a custom CSS for my husband and asked him "what do you want on your header?" I got back "I dunno. You're good, you know what I want." Aaarrgghh.
Damn it, Ompompanoosuc. You made me spit beef stew all over.
Caine at #71,
lol, no worries. Part of the shock is that I've lived it, too, and it's a bit like a bad flashback.
I once spent a half hour explaining to a CEO light dynamics for a product shoot. The product had a brushed stainless steel casing. He wanted it to reflect like polished chrome.
Granted, not everyone knows light dynamics on different surfaces, fine, BUT, dude, you're the CEO of a company with several chains of command below you, including me, the (then) director of creative production! Go worry about the fucking company vision and direction! Let my team worry about the brushed stainless steel!
I swear, some corporate/client micromanagement makes military life look like an anarchic commune.
Still learning,
Robert
"Was Ham "there" at PZ's birth?"
Was he even there at his own?
PZ, I still regard you as one of the funniest people on the internet.
Just wanted to thank you. Again.
(My wife just told me to "Stop smiling!". Not kidding.)
Anyone else read about the billboards in Sacramento? They're up to nearly 5,000 comments on it! Go Sacramento Atheists!)
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/scavenger/detail?entry_id=57062
MikeM
I think you could have made a deal with him PZ:
When the pigfucker respects science, you'll respect his amusement park's pissant rules about riding fake dinosaurs.
@Doug
Kenny probably emphasised the visitor's Canadian citizenship to reinforce the notion we're a particularly vile, godless country. We let queers marry and let women kill their babies.
... absolutely.
Also, let us look at this from the view of Complex Theology™: clearly, the deity, who knows all, sees all, and has the whole world in his hands (strums guitar) has no difficulty whatsoever with this development...
So, clearly, it's all part of his plan, Kenny. This is your role, the part you are to play...
And I expect if you look back over your life and search your heart, you will discover that you always knew (Hallelujah!) it had to be this way...
I mean, you were not so much gifted with much in the way of wisdom, certainly little or anything in the way of simple honesty. Indeed, if we review the material in your dissertation, it seems rather unlikely you are gifted, exactly, with such advanced abilities as the ability to tie your own shoes...
But then, why should you feel any bitterness over this, when you consider what shoes you were blessed with! Clown shoes from the get go, baby!
So this is your destiny, Kenny! Clown for Jesus! And who are you to argue with The Will of God™?
(/Yea, he knows all, he sees all... And, if he actually existed, I'm pretty sure he'd be laughing at Ken Ham, too...)
I followed the whole visit on Pharyngula & Twitter. IIRC, the age warning was on a movable floor sign that was blocked when everyone crowded around PZ & the triceratops; someone only noticed it after PZ had climbed aboard & had the picture taken. The "damage" was done by then....
I am sure that, had PZ seen the sign before he climbed on, he would have respected the rules - 'cause he's that kind of guy.
And I am sure it happens all the time - people climb aboard before they see the sign.
I climbed a few steps of the Parthenon many years ago because I didn't see the "Keep Off" sign and had 3 guards shoo me down. But then, the Parthenon is just a pile of rocks - not half so important as a fiberglass dinosaur.....
I refer you to comment #26
Is anyone else amazed that Ham managed to turn PZ cimbing onto a plastic triceratops into an example of atheist immorality? Kind of scraping the barrel there, aren't you?
I have a simple question.
What material is Ken Ham's saddle made out of?
It wouldn't happen to be made out of leather from dead animals would it?
I know, I know. And I'm not happy about this...
I mean, c'mon. They used to go on about we murdered babies, seduced good Christian youth into lives of immorality, sent innocent believers randomly off to the salt mines just for kicks... You got the picture atheists were badass, y'know? Like we were the kinda people who'd rip a believer's head off with our bare hands and take a shit in the bleeding hole as soon as look at 'em...
Now... What? Now we're down to 'They ride our toy dinosaurs without paying attention to the posted signs?' That's it?
People, this just won't do. Bad for our image, I tells ya...
(/So who's been slacking off on the baby murdering detail? Fess up!)
¿La Virgén de Guadalupe? But… she's Tonantzin, more precisely Xochiquetzal. She can simply feed flowers to the Nothronychus. :-) And then, presumably, ride it.
Ken Ham's museum is saddled with bronze-age mythology. To be succinct: It's saddled with stupidity.
Ken Ham is such a joke everything about him makes me puke in my mouth. Especially his creepy beard, that just scares me. Your beard is so much cooler PZ.
I love seeing my hat on Pharyngula.
The Creation Museum was the scariest place I've ever been in. The dragon movie gave me the shakes.
PZ: How far off is the 1,000,000th visitor to the museum ? Is there no way we can arrange it so that you are the one millionth visitor ? I'd love to see the look on Ken Ham's face.
In 1987 Australia held a competition with the aim of attempting to to increase the overall intelligence and sanity of the country. After many rounds of competition and then the heats and finals Ken Ham was selected as the person most likely to achieve this aim. And so it came to pass that as his prize he was given a one way air ticket to the United States.
As vindication for the proponents of the scheme it was noted that as soon as his aircraft exited Australian airspace the overall intelligence of the nation rose a full 25 IQ points. It has been claimed that such a concentrated accumulation of stupid is in astronomical terms the equivalent of a black hole in the core of a galaxy. Supporting this hypothesis is the fact that despite the distance involved his sphere of inanity still affects us on the other side of the world.
(Sorry if this pic is too big)
PenguinFactory | February 16, 2010 10:13 AM:
I'm not surprised at all. After all, it's happened before. Nisbet turned PZ sitting with a toy panda into an example of atheist militancy.