(I bet this will get me all sorts of incredibly useful search engine traffic...)
Some time back, I asked for car-buying advice, and got a wealth of it in comments. Yesterday, Kate and I did a little car shopping, and visited a handful of local dealers to look at various cars. As with the last time I did this (circa 1997), just sitting in cars was enough to narrow the choice dramatically.
We tried pretty much everything in the big car/ small SUV line at the Honda dealership, and there wasn't a vehicle there where I didn't bang my knee into the steering column while switching from the gas to the brake. The Subaru wagon/ SUV vehicles were likewise hopeless, to the point that even the salesman couldn't work up any enthusiasm for pushing new things at me. Toyota was somewhat better, but still had significant knee position issues. The one car we tried there that didn't bruise my knees was an Avalon, which fails the cargo space criterion, as the back seats don't fold down (which is the primary cargo issue with my 1999 Taurus).
That pretty much narrows it down to two vehicles, with a number of pros and cons and car questions that I'll put below the fold, to build suspense...
The two vehicles that were comfortable enough to actually drive around a bit were the Ford Freestyle, which is basically a station wagon version of the Five Hundred (which replaced the Taurus), and the Ford Escape, which is a small SUV. Both had ample leg room, and the wheel was positioned in a way that gave me a good deal of freedom in positioning my leg (the Honda and Toyota cars would've been ok, if the wheel could've been adjusted upward another few degrees).
This is pretty much what happened the last time I looked at cars, too-- I ended up with a Ford because they were the only cars that were well designed for my height. The new round of Fords aren't quite as good-- they've gone to a built-in center console that restricts movement a bit-- but they're still better than anything else we tried.
Of the two, I'm leaning in the direction of the Freestyle, because the one we drove was pretty nice. The Escape comes in a hybrid model with considerably better mileage, but they didn't have one on the lot, and the 4-cylinder model that was suggested as being similar in feel to the hybrid was a little too truck-y, and seemed under-powered (for me to say that is really something, as that's the knock on my Taurus, and I've never had a problem with that). Consumer Reports also declines to recommend the Escape and variants due to a tendency to go up on two wheels in side impact tests, which is also a factor.
In the Pro-Freestyle column, we have: Nice ride, lots of room, generally good reviews on the Interwebs. In the Anti-Freestyle column: the mileage is good but not great, and Ford is having some trouble at the moment. Others would probably add that Fords don't have the reliability record of Honda or Toyota, but I've had fairly good luck with them in the past, so I'm not too worried on that account.
If anybody has any experience with either of these two vehicles, I'd be happy to hear more opinions. The customer reviews on the Consumer Reports site are generally good for both the Freestyle and the Escape, though I haven't looked around to see if they just tend to get only good reviews for everything (suggestions of cars to check out in search of bad user reviews are also welcome).
Also, a couple of car-buying queries, as I am not a Car Guy:
1) How important/ useful is the All-Wheel Drive option on these? I know the point is supposed to be that it improves handling in bad weather, but how big a deal is that? The Taurus is front-wheel drive, and I haven't had any major problems with it up here. The AWD versions are a bit more expensive, and the mileage is a little lower, though neither of those would be a huge obstacle if it's worth having.
2) The Freestyle has a Continuously Variable Transmission, just like Kate's Prius. I know that this takes a little getting used to, but are there any significant downsides to it other than that it feels weird after years of driving regular automatic transmissions?
3) What options would you consider essential? The standard features on the "SEL" version look fine to me, but that doesn't mean there isn't some critical feature in the "Limited" option package that I'm missing.
4) I wouldn't mind hearing can't-miss financial advice, either, if there's some conventional wisdom about the best way to approach new car financing (what's the optimum combination of downpayment, loan term, interest rate. etc.). Kate handles most of that sort of stuff, as I'm Bad With Money, and prefer to leave it to her, but I'm happy to pass along useful tips.
Feel free to suggest other cars that we really ought to look at before making a purchase. There isn't a huge rush, here, though we'll probably do something in the next few weeks.
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I thought the Fusion was the Taurus replacement, and the 500 was bigger; I could be wrong on that, though.
As for reliability, you're fine. Except for a few specific models, reliability is a general non-issue (the Ford Fusion, for instance, got better marks from Consumer's Reports than the Accord or Camry).
On the AWD front, it definitely does help, but the bigger thing is Dynamic Stability Control (or whatever Ford calls it). If this is an option, absolutely get it; studies have shown that it's the biggest safety improvement since seatbelts, and I can say from experience that it makes it almost impossible to make a car do things you don't want it to do. My car has both AWD and DSC, and I can't even make it spin out in corners when the plow hasn't come through yet and I nail the throttle and steer sharply and suddenly.
My parents own a Freestyle and have yet to have any problems with. My limited experience with it has been positive. It drives well and gets okay mileage for cars of the bigger variety.
I apologize if this is more on topic for your original post, but for what it's worth, I went through a similar decision process a few years ago (2001). I came down to the Ford Escape and the Hyundai Santa Fe. I went with the Santa Fe and have been extremely happy with it. It comes with a 5yr/50k warranty, upgradeable to 10/10, and has more of car-feel as opposed to truck-feel when driving. As basically a city guy, I found it to be a good compromise on space without getting all the "I'm really a mountain man in disguise" extras that impress your friends but one rarely uses.
Check Edmunds ( http://www.edmunds.com/ ) and Kelly Blue Book ( http://www.kbb.com/ ) for price sanity.
The best plan is to pay cash, of course, if you have it. Failing that, try to finance less than 80% so that you aren't under water with the loan if you decide you need to trade the car in in a few years.
Check with your credit union for a "pre-approved" loan. Some credit unions have ways to get fleet prices for you too. The dealership finance officer will probably try to get you to switch to his deal, but caveat emptor! (For an example of credit union services, see http://www.goamplify.com/auto/index.cfm )
Unfortunately our credit union's loan rates at the moment are considerably higher than Ford's financing offer on the Freestyle. I'd like us to go through the credit union, but it doesn't appear to make sense here.
(When I bought my 2003 Prius, I took Toyota's financing to get a discount on the purchase price and then turned around and bought out the Toyota loan with a credit union loan; the credit union's rate was higher by a negligible amount and I'd rather deal with my local credit union if there are problems.)
I've a 2004 Escape that I'm happy with. Plenty of pick up for merging on the freeway and heading up-hill to Flagstaff, plenty of room for my 6'1" frame, and enough room in the trunk for errands and my daughters sports gear etc.
used Buick LeSabre or its replacement model (Lucerne?). Very reliable 6 cylinder with 27-9 MPG, and the knee banging will end.
As far as getting dealer financing and then buying it out later at a lower CU rate, make SURE there is no early payoff penalty, those are much more common now.
Perry: how very sucky of manufacturers to do that. Obviously that wasn't an issue for me, and I think I checked; but as I said, I don't think we'll be doing that here, because the rates just don't compare.
You really need to read the book
"Don't Get taken Every time" by Sutton.
Here's the Amazon link, and I don't know how
to make it just say "link"
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/103-8528756-6767844?url=search-alia…
He's a former car dealer, and explains how sales
really work.
In my previous life at a biotech company, a copy
continuously circulated among the various PhD's,
MS's, techs... and EVERY last one of said it was the
most important thing they did before buying a car.
In the last 2 car purchases I've made, I've seen every sales
trick in the book. Literally, not figuratively. My father-in-law (deceased) owned a dealership, and we had many discussions about sales. The sole duty of the salesman is to get you to sign the contract, and maximize his comission.
The contempt (there is no other word) that salesmen and dealerships hold for their "customers" is boundless.
To summarize.... the price on the sticker is meaningless, and the amount they are willing to sell a car for on any given day may be less than their "price". The MSRP is a joke, and any customer who pays it is considered an ignorant boob.
The system depends on Americans not wanting to be
confrontational; if you aren't willing to seemingly be
an intransigent haggler, you pay thousands and thousands
more. What to you is "haggling" is simply a delay in getting you to sign (to them). The current trend of women as salesmen is their greatest advance in sales in decades - the average Joe is FAR less likely to haggle with a women, as they don't want to appear like a penny-pinching
pain-in-the-ass....and so pay more. Often much more.
Oh.....can't forget Saturn's "this is the price, and you don't have to haggle - and we won't either". Great psychology, and great system for them. They've made billions depending on the American sense of "fair play".
And if you don't look at Edmunds.com - you are equally
a schmuck. You have to know the price the dealer pretends is their "cost"...which of course isn't.
really. read the book. it's astonishing. and accurate.
I am not a crank about this. Just read the book. You'll see.
From all of my friends with such experience: FWD (or RWD!) + winter tires > AWD/4WD + all-season tires.
Depending on how much snow you get and how quickly the roads get plowed, you may not even need winter tires OR AWD/4WD.
Asad
As a discalmer: I am vey biased against American vehicles. The two worst vehicles I've owned were both American. And I've owned British sports cars and old Harley-Davidsons. I will never own another American car.
First, I would not by a new car without the following:
Side airbags
ABS
Stability control
Nothing without the above would be on my shortlist.
Unless you are in really snowbound country, I would put my money into 4 snow/ice tires on their own rims before I would put my money into AWD. As far as AWD goes, I think that you would want to consider how much experience the manufacturer has with AWD and in this case the American manufacturers leave me a little cold. They have been known to put systems into production before they are fully developed (GM 350 diesel anyone, that pretty much ruined the American market for diesels).
CVTs have been around for quite a while and are a proven technology, they are simple and reliable. I believe that the CVT that Ford uses is a ZF unit designed in Germany. It's hard to beat the Germans when it comes to tranmission technology.
On the options front, I would insist on side airbags (if those are available). I would not by a car today without side airbags (Friends of ours just had a catastrophic failure of the brake system in thier Mercedes station wagon. Hit a new Honda Civic in the drivers door. The Honda driver walked away uninjured. I don't belive that could have happened without side airbags). Heated outside mirrors are next, followed by split and folding rear seats, then heated front seats. I would also like a sound system that would recognize an ipod.
Financing: If you can get intrest rates from Ford below those that you would get on savings acount at a credit union, I would go that route. I see that Ford has 0.9% for 36 months. Hard to beat that. Makes for steep payments, but you are alway right side up in the car. I've never paid more than 10% down on a car.
What would I buy today? In the market you looking at I like Subarus, but you don't fit. Toyota seats kill my butt (not an uncommon complaint about Toyotas) so they are out. GM is forever on my shitlist so they are out. Mazdas have a solid repution for engineering but I have zero experience with them so cannot pass judgement. Difficult to say anything bad about Honda, but fit is an issue again. Chrysler will have a had time convincing me they are serious about building quality vehicles. That pretty much leaves Ford. The reviews are generally solid on Ford. Friends have a new VW Jetta diesel wagon and it's a really sweet car. 50mpg.
Just one note on front wheel drive vs AWD. Although I like AWD, I remember a big snowstorm in Atlanta (yes, and it would have qualified as big in most places in the US) back in the mid-80s. I had a cheapo Civic station wagon in which I drove all over town with no problems while most people were thrashing about. Part of it was that most didn't have a clue about how to drive, but a lot of it was simply the car. I was sold on the capabilities of FWD for snowy conditions. Unless you have lots and lots of slippery conditions, FWD will almost certainly suffice.