Why, when you apparently are an agnostic or atheist, did you get married in a church? And are you going to baptize your baby? Raise him/her in a religious framework?
Now, here's a nice volatile question...
Why did we get married in a church? Because religion is more than just superstition and mythology. I've written about this before, and will no doubt write about it again.
My family is Catholic, and I was raised Catholic. I got out of school for an hour or so on Wednesday afternoon for religious education classes in middle school, and in junior high, I went to confirmation classes on Sundays after Mass. I haven't set foot in a church in a couple of years, but I can still recite (well, reconstruct) the Nicene Creed from memory, and large chunks of the rest of the Mass as well.
That instruction didn't particularly take-- as I said, I don't go to church any more-- but it was an important part of my upbringing, and it's an important part of my family. And my family is a big part of my identity.
I pushed for a church wedding because of that, and Kate went along with it because she's way too good to me (and because neither of us knew in advance that we'd end up kneeling through the whole ceremony...). It was important to me to have a church wedding as a tribute to my family and my heritage. In a sense, it was similar to the Polish wedding dance at the reception-- a way of honoring family traditions on a special occasion.
(And, let's be honest, it's just hard to beat Catholicism for pomp and circumstance on liminal occasions, at least among Western religious traditions. If you get married or buried in the Church, you get your money's worth of ceremony...)
This is the element that I think is missing from most of the current discussions of religion, and it's why I find the "New Atheists" so incredibly frustrating. They hammer on the mythological aspects of religion ad nauseam, but barely acknowledge the social and cultural aspects. But those are a huge piece of the picture-- I bristle at the oh-so-witty references to pedophile clergy that pop up whenever Catholicism pops onto the radar not because I agree with Church doctrine (capital punishment is about the only point of overlap), but because the Church is part of my cultural heritage. My reflexive "Oh, fuck you" reaction to Catholic slurs has nothing to do with belief in God, and everything to do with my parents and grandparents, aunts, uncles, and cousins.
Family and community are a powerful part of the attraction of religion, and they don't get addressed in most of the current discussions. Probably because it's a Hard Problem, and not the sort of thing that provides a great platform for incredibly witty ways of calling churchgoers stupid. Which, in turn, leads me to write most of the "New Atheist" movement off as irretreivably childish.
Returning to the original question, having gotten married in a church, will we have FutureBaby baptized? Almost certainly not.
The way I see it, a church wedding was an appropriate time and place for paying respect to family heritage. A wedding, after all, is not just about the couple getting married, but about their friends and families coming together as a community to witness the marriage. It's not just about the bride and groom, but also about the people who helped bring them to this point, and will help carry them forward. It's a time to honor the past, as well as celebrate the future.
The birth of a child, on the other hand, is a new beginning, and an appropriate time to break or alter traditions. FutureBaby is our child, and he or she will be brought up in a manner of our choosing. He or she will still be part of the family line, but he or she is also the start of a new line.
Will he or she be raised in a religious framework? Not really. (Though, ironically, we looked at potential day care options last week, and we're strongly leaning toward the day care program at the local Jewish Community Center...) He or she will no doubt pick up some bits and pieces here and there-- as I said, my family is Catholic-- but Kate and I don't go to church, and we're exceedingly unlikely to start going with FutureBaby. Some basic knowledge of Christian theology is essential information for navigating the world we live in, so I'll probably explain it a bit, but I can't see enrolling him or her in any formal religious instruction.
So, quite frankly, it would be waste of time for almost everybody involved to have FutureBaby baptized in the church. We don't go to church, and we're not going to start now. I'd feel awfully hypocritical standing in the front of a church and pledging FutureBaby to a whole bunch of stuff that neither of us really believe. A sufficiently mellow parish would probably take our money and do the ceremony, but really, what would be the point?
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1) I am not too good to you.
2) If I had to do it all over, I would insist that we do more research into the church than "looks nice, near the reception." It wasn't just the kneeling, it was all the _other_ old-school stuff that had me thisclose to insisting on a Vegas elopement . . .
obey?
;-)
As the atheist daughter of two utterly tepid Catholics, I didn't think I'd get married in church either, but my husband would probably have been, at the time, best described as a "cultural Methodist." He grew up in that denomination,graduated from a Methodist college. and belonged to a very liberal, socially activist Methodist congregation at the time. Although I never joined the church, I really liked the people there.
We were married in that church by three Methodist ministers -- the pastor of the church and two of my husband's college friends. That pastor also was a calm, positive voice for us later when we went through some of the inevitable stresses of newlywed life. Although my husband and I don't consider ourselves religious now, I'm happy we got married in that church by people who knew us and cared about us. The "church" part wasn't at all important to me, but the "knew us and cared about us" part was.
Two blind drunk Irishmen are staggering down the road loudly singing off-key, puking and pissing themselves, and flat on their faces in muddy horse dung were it not for each leaning on the other sorry sod. One rabbi says to the other rabbi...
Hindus have 30 crores of gods - 300 million deities. How well is India doing? In the whole of human history across the entire planet not one deity has volunteered Novocain or pi to five decimal places. It is a telling omission.
I agree with you on the social/cultural values of family and "community," whether that community be religious or something else.
The traditional function of a baptism or christening is the introduction of a new member to *your* community. In that sense, my wife and I had our daughter "christened" into the folk music community at a folk festival. Now married and a mother, she and her family are still involved in and a part of the folk community.
If you and Kate have some "community" that is significant for you (SciFi? Blogdom?), you might want to consider some small ceremony to introduce your child to that community.
I am an Atheist and my husband was raised as a (now non-practicing) Catholic. I had refused to get married in the Catholic Church (for my own reasons), even at my husband's urging.
After much arguing, then finally civilized, discussion with my husband, he was pushing the issue to please his parents, and not because he wanted it (he really did not). He finally stood up to them. He decided it was more important to please the woman he planned to spend his life with, rather than please his parents and introduce family conflict into our marriage.
We decided since we were paying for everything, we would do whatever we wanted. We were married in the gardens of the local Planetarium by a justice of the peace. It was very beautiful.
That was almost 5 years ago, and we do not regret anything about our wedding ceremony.
As far as rasing our (not yet conceived) children, we decided they would not be baptised or raised Catholic. We felt it was more important to raise children to be decent, kind and caring, than to use religion to guilt them into being decent, kind and caring.
Those of us that have been shunned or estranged from family members that chose their "community" over family probably beg to differ.
Those of us that have been shunned or estranged from family members that chose their "community" over family probably beg to differ.
Absolutely.
Family ties to religion are only an attractive feature for people who happen to get along with their families. Of course, this is true of anything-- political affiliation, sports fandom, musical tastes-- not just religion.
ah after 12 years of Catholic school, I'm still recovering years later. And Kate, as Bill Cosby taught us, the kneeling is how we find out who the non catholics in church are. 1-2-3 KNEEL!!!!!
I married a divorced woman in a Presbyterian church so am probably excommunicated by now anyway.......She really wanted a church wedding, so did all the parents, so I said fine.
And Chad forget the priests...It was the nuns, with those rulers, always the nuns..........
We have been members of a Presbyterian church (the frozen chosen, most boring services I've EVER attended.) Only good thing was it was always 50 minutes, except CHristmas or Easter. You could set your watch by it. Now we frequent a predominantly African American Baptist church, where there is always an hour of music or so before it starts, and you may end up there all day. It has been very interesting in lots of ways, but I'm still a cafeteria religion person, when they say there was no big bang, or the earth is 4000 years old, I just don't listen. I ain't gonna change their minds........
After much arguing, then finally civilized, discussion with my husband, he was pushing the issue to please his parents, and not because he wanted it (he really did not). He finally stood up to them. He decided it was more important to please the woman he planned to spend his life with, rather than please his parents and introduce family conflict into our marriage.
I should probably clarify, not that it will do any good in the comments, that I did not push for a church wedding to please or appease my family. I wanted it because it was important to me for reasons having to do with family, not because my parents or anyone else insisted on it. I don't think my parents said a single word on the subject, one way or the other, and I suspect they would've been fine with whatever we decided to do.
As Kate notes, I probably should've done more checking, so we could've ended up with a less old-school church, though we did get a couple of good anecdotes out of the process.
Was the actual service Catholic? As in, did you spend most of your time liturgically thanking God for the love you feel for one another, or was it more secular?
Was the actual service Catholic? As in, did you spend most of your time liturgically thanking God for the love you feel for one another, or was it more secular?
It was the short-form Catholic wedding service-- not a full Mass, but a religious ceremony, with Bible readings and stuff. I forget what the Old Testament readings were, but we had the obvious 1 Corinthians reading, because it's a beautiful piece of writing, and the gospel was the wedding at Cana.
My reflexive "Oh, fuck you" reaction to Catholic slurs has nothing to do with belief in God, and everything to do with my parents and grandparents, aunts, uncles, and cousins.
I hope you can appreciate that when atheists and recovering catholics slur catholicism (or insert favourite religion here), it has nothing to do with your extended family in any way, who, I am sure, are perfectly wonderful people.
If you can, I don't understand why you have that reflex.
I hope you can appreciate that when atheists and recovering catholics slur catholicism (or insert favourite religion here), it has nothing to do with your extended family in any way, who, I am sure, are perfectly wonderful people.
If you can, I don't understand why you have that reflex.
It's a reflex, not a reasoned reaction. I understand that people aren't directly attacking my family, but that doesn't change my immediate response.
Mind you, I end up sticking with "Oh, fuck you" as my response to a lot of on-line Catholic slurs, because the people using them aren't actually making a serious point, they're just throwing in a "pedophile priest" joke to show how boldly transgressive they are, and I really have very little use for that.
For us, the compromise was a non-denominational wedding in a university chapel. That was the only way we were going to get a Jehovah's Witness and a bunch of Catholics in one building, but it was still a church so almost everyone was happy. And, hey, it was really pretty. (The fact that the minister was of the same faith as my father was raised, and I partly, was just a weird coincidence.)
My wife and I were both raised Catholic and have practicing Catholic parents and siblings. I'm an atheist, she's more of a deist. We chose to get married in our backyard by the town judge (now referred to as "Judge Sneakers" because he wore athletic shoes under his robe). Immediate family and friends only. Everyone had a great time and not a single utterance about (or need for) a deity. We said "I do", turned around, and the party (reception) began!
My sister and I were raised Southen Baptist but were pretty lackadaiscal about it after, say, high school. Until she had children, when suddenly religion became the most important thing ever for her. It was really weird. And watching my father's disintegration to Alzheimer's finally pushed me over the edge into committed atheism.
WE had an interesting panel on atheism at this year's Potlatch. Community *is* one of the things lacking, and I'd like for those of us who subscribe to think about ways around that. Brunch on Sunday morning with like minds? The First Atheistic Church?
MKK
My sister and I were raised Southen Baptist but were pretty lackadaiscal about it after, say, high school. Until she had children, when suddenly religion became the most important thing ever for her. It was really weird. And watching my father's disintegration to Alzheimer's finally pushed me over the edge into committed atheism.
WE had an interesting panel on atheism at this year's Potlatch. Community *is* one of the things lacking, and I'd like for those of us who subscribe to think about ways around that. Brunch on Sunday morning with like minds? The First Atheistic Church?
MKK
We had a Catholic wedding to please my mother, who was going to have a heart attack if we did anything else. It was in the chapel of a Catholic center that served the university, rather than in a parish church, used the short form of the wedding service, and I made damn sure there was nothing sexist in the readings or vows. That was also the last time I ever attended a service in a Catholic church, other than a couple of weddings.
Including all the participants, the total human attendees numbered 17. It was a lovely summer morning, somebody left the church door open, and a neighbor's cat wandered in during the ceremony. I considered that to be an auspicious sign... and so it was. This year we'll celebrate our 28th anniversary.
We were married in my in-laws' backyard by my wife's great-uncle. He was a Baptist minister who insisted that we attend a pre-marriage counseling session with him. Although my wife, a believer, probably didn't agree with 75% of his beliefs, he was still a nice guy in person. The fact that he had married everyone in her immediate family made it less of a religious ceremony and more of a family get together.
That's the only way I could justify it. :)
Honestly, the only reason I we had any ceremony at all was because my wife wanted to. It's just not as interesting to sign a piece of paper and then move in together, but I never cared one way or another.
What, no christening?
I was christened three times, different names each time, and I ended up a hardcore atheist. Is there a moral in there?
My family is in a similar situation as yours, Chad. We had the church wedding, although in our case it was in an outdoor chapel by the lake, done by the pastor I became good friends with in college. We had a church wedding mostly for family purposes since my husband is an atheist and I'm an agnostic. Now that we have kids, my mom keeps wondering about when they're going to go to Sunday school, but that's not at all likely since we don't agree with a lot of what the Christian church preaches (mainly the intolerance).
I'm an atheist, so I don't have a great deal of respect for the trappings of religion. I'll go to ceremonies at churches on occassion - weddings and funerals, mostly - but I will not take much part. Not because of my dislike of religion but because of the value I put on my own word. I will not make any promises or other statements which imply that I have some sort of religious belief as that would be deceitful. Thus in the very unlikely event of me getting married I wouldn't go anywhere near a church: it would mean starting off marriage with a lie.
I wonder if there's a lesson somewhere in the fact that Uncle Al's second paragraph could've been written by a New Atheist :)
I don't think any "New Atheist" would have a problem with atheists getting married in church. It's just a building and set of traditions after all. If you have sentimental attachments or just happen to like traditional weddings: knock yourself out. There might be compelling political reasons to boycott particular religious institutions but, on the face of it, I don't see anything inherently wrong with being "culturally Catholic." What's usually objected to is the rather offensive claim that society as a whole needs these institutions.
If you are an atheist being married in a church, with a traditional religious ceremony, you are at least implicitly seeking the approval of God and an institution that exists in his name. Depending on the ceremony, this request may in fact be quite explicit. And you are doing so while privately denying the big guy's very existence. This is not honest conduct. This is living a lie.
Mind you, I'm willing to put up with a certain amount of polite fiction; we all need to get along with people we disagree with, and putting those disagreements on the front burner is probably not the way to do so. If you need a church wedding to stay on good terms with your family, well, OK. But someone doing it for aesthetic reasons really aught to rethink his priorities.
And the same goes for the churches that are willing to perform wink-wink religious marriages.
Chad, I'm wondering about your transition from being raised as a Catholic to becoming more agnostic. Were your parents fairly agnostic as well in your childhood, but more ritually inclined than you are now, or were/are they actual believers? Was your transition gradual and smooth, or fairly contentious and tumultuous? How did you break it to your parents that you would stop attending Mass? I hope I'm not pressing for too many personal details, but I'd really like to know.
I'm the one who asked these questions, and I'm inclined to agree with the commenter who wrote #26. I think it's very dishonest, frankly, to get married in a church and mouth the words to religious vows when you know you don't believe in the Deity whose name you are calling on to witness your vows and bless and approve your union. I've seen too many "cultural" or fallen-away Catholics get married this way, even to the point of lying to priests to hide the fact that they were living together just so they could get married in a church and make mom happy. The Church itself would rather you live as you (dis) believe and not get married in a church setting while pretending to be Catholic for a day just so you can have a pretty setting for your wedding pictures and make your family happy (or keep your "family traditions" alive). To marry without the intentions of keeping a clean soul (according to Catholic doctrine) and the intention of living a real Catholic life is a grave mortal sin of sacrilege in the Church's eyes. Why not be honest and brave, setting a good example for your family in the process, and marry according to how and what you really believe?
Sorry, but that's how I see it. And why I'm getting married in a secular service by a member of the American Ethical Union, even though it will make my family members uncomfortable.
I'm glad to hear that you're not going to keep on playing make-believe by having your baby baptized, though (not that you asked for or care about my opinion, I realize).
Being Japanese, atheist (or non-Christian) couples getting married in Christian churches is not unfamiliar to me, although Chad's case is very different from those of my fellow countrymen and women, of course. I used to find such Japanese couples embarrassing. But I started to see certain freedom in their disregard of the churches as religious institutions.
It is nice that Chad feels that Church is part of his cultural heritage and that he belongs to that community. But what about people outside of that heritage and the community. After living a long time in US, what I find troubling is that being Christianity is seen as a requirement for being a normal decent human being. So, on one hand non-Christians and especially atheists are seen with suspicion and hatred. On the other hand, bigotry by Christians is tolerated. This is a social aspect of religion that I find frustrating.
I've had some interesting conversations with my Chinese-American colleague, who is an atheist. He told me that he didn't quite fit in with other Asian-American children when he grew up because (according to him) the majority of the Asian-American children around him were Christians who went to church regularly. He has disdain for them because (A) he thinks teachings of Christianity are stupid and (B) he thinks there is something phony about Asians practicing Christianity. What he does acknowledge is that the church is important in providing them with communities. That explains why they would go to Chinese or Korean churches instead of churches where other Americans go. But I find it interesting that they feel urge to practice a religion that is not truly a part of their cultural traditions.