Because we all love Paleogene 'ungulates'

Please Darren...make 'one day' a day that'll come soon!

you wicked tease!

one day I'll get round to them

When you do, could you please sort out the entire Condylarthra 'sensu traditionali' mess?

Love perhaps isn't the word when it comes to mesonychians - I live in a place with plenty of Hugenot and Waldensian traditions, and Gevaudan has left a lasting impression ;-) (the guy who works on the desk next to me claims to be a descendant of Dorothea Viehmann, who told Little Red Riding Hood to the brothers Grimm) - it's rather a mix of awe, fascination and fear.

BTW, this is awesome: http://patriatyrannus.deviantart.com/art/Late-Eocene-of-Death-Valley-91…

Something that can put an entelodont to rout! And it's horned, for God's/Cthulhu's/Bartzabel's sake!

When you do, could you please sort out the entire Condylarthra 'sensu traditionali' mess?

Sure - would you like me to end all war and solve global poverty at the same time?

I love the Eocene hoofed mammals, especially the terrier-sized horses and he of the six horns and huge canine teeth, Uintatherium. I'll be anxious to see this topic discussed in greater detail!

Dear Darren, I'm really surprised because mu knowledge of palaeogenic mammals (expecially if meat-eating)is very poor.
But I have never understood what creodonts are. Can you tell me something about this question?
I have seen in these days a new genetic tree of placental mammals. I have read that the split beetween carnivora (and pholydota) and perissodactyla is more recent of the split beetween these and cetarctiodactyla.
So in the same period there would be meat-eating forms belonging to four orders: early carnivora, creodonts, mesonychidae and the pig-related form. Is it right?
thank you

RE #4:

Is "Pyrokerberus" the correct spelling of the alleged horned mesonychid's name? Google Scholar turns up no results and Wikipedia has a sourceless stub. Horns on a mesonychid sounds more than a little strange and it would be nice to see some original material (if any exists!) in order to tell if the structure(s) are an artifact of preservation or osteological irregularity (like "horns" on some jackals) rather than something which could truly be called a horn.

I have similar problems to Cameron. I can't find any record of a mesonychian with this name; likewise for Antillodaeodon, the entelodont supposedly found in the same sediments. Both animals are said to be from the Eocene of Death Valley, California. If you know more, please share. At the moment I think both animals are hypothetical.

Awesome artwork. I've always loved those pieces that showcase multiple species; it gives my non-professional mind a better grasp at the size difference between some animals.

These teaser posts that you do seem to end up with us readers imploring/begging for topics that you'll cover. I know I feel like a kid in a candy store: "Ohhh, what about multituberculates?! And Miocene neosuchia radiation (i.e. Purussaurs)?! And solving global poverty! Yarr!"

To my knowledge, the entire Paleocene and Eocene are missing in Death Valley, the oldest Cenozoic formation there being the Oligocene Titus Mountain Formation. So something is certainly fishy here....

Whoops. Make that, Titus Canyon Formation.

Neil: this was one of the first things I thought of. But I saw references saying that the Titus Canyon Fm is Chadronian... and doesn't it contain brontotheres?

But I have never understood what creodonts are. Can you tell me something about this question?

I believe they are still considered a clade of stem-carnivorans (i.e., a clade closer to carnivorans than Manis is). Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

An weird and mysterious crowd...

Uintatheres = Anagalid-relatives ("terror-hares", lol) or pseudo-eutherians ?
Meniscotheriines = Afrotherians?
Phenacodonts = perissodactyle-ancestors or afrotherians?
Where is the craddle of pangolings? Southern Asia or Africa? If they are Carnivores' sistergroup, where we can fit hyenodonts and oxyenids?

On creodonts....

Short answer: Mike (#14), you're wrong. But no-one else knows what a creodont is, either.

Long answer: This is going to require an entire post. I'll have it up at my site before the end of the day (promise...)

Creodonts are usually put as a sister group to miacids. The fossil record seems to indicate that in the paleocene, the proto-ferans split into two groups, one that tended to be larger and nearly obligate carnivores (creodonts) and one that was smaller and more varied in diet (miacids). Of course, new evidence can always turn such ideas on their head.

Sorry for the double post, but by miacids, I meant all other carnivorans. And on Phenacodonts, I hear they are considered the nearest outgroup to Perissodactyla proper.

Ah mammal phylogeny, just when you thought reptile phylogeny was bad...

Darren: You're right on both counts, of course. That's what I get for taking structural geologists at their word...

Darren, if your objective with this post was to annoyingly tease, it is a very successful post.

johannes - the 'love' in relation to mesonychians is probably Lovecraft - some of them would fit in to his imagination nicely.

Okay, I've finished the long answer on creodonts.

Darren: Picture a paleomammal fan sitting up and begging!
--
Here's a topic I'd love to see someone knowledgeable discuss: as between Chriacus, Ganungulatum and space aliens, which on the basis of available evidence is more likely to be closeley related to Artiodactyls? (Sorry: Ganungulatum was described by Ting et al. in the 2007 "Vertebrata Palasiatica" with a suggestion that it might be close to the origins of the Artiodactyla, and I have seen no furtherr discussion or comment at all. The origins of the extant "Ungulate" orders are... a mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped....!)

I would love to hear more from the wicked palaeocene, eocene and oligocene world. But there is not much out there.

I learned more about the Borhyaenidae on this blog than in all the books.
It would be fantastic if you could put 'more flesh' on the bones of these enigmatic underrated but highly important creatures.

Artiodactyla and Cetacea probably evolved from some Southern Asian stock of basal mesonychids, still unknown to us, due the absence of Paleocene South Asian records.

Meniscotheriine looks like a bandicoot...

> If you know more, please share.

Nothing scholarly, just the mentioned wikipedia stubs and a few sketches at Deviant Art with the adjacent discussion in the comments, see here:
http://avancna.deviantart.com/art/Death-Valley-Ungulates-BW-91196855
and, intriguingly, one comment in a thread about cars in a (libertarian?) forum, see here:
http://ftp.grylliade.org/node/2668?page=1

> the 'love' in relation to mesonychians is probably
> Lovecraft - some of them would fit in to his imagination
> nicely.

When the excrecable Michael Ende tried to do a Dunsany piece with his "Never Ending Story", he did indeed use an *Andrewsarchus*-like villain. Needless to say, Ende's attempt to rape Dunsany were just as disastrous as his attempts to rape Goethe and Nabokov in "Momo" (but in spite or because of their aesthetic failures, Ende's tomes sold like hot cakes).

Sure - would you like me to end all war and solve global poverty at the same time?

Hey, it's easier than it looks: solving one would go a long way towards solving the other.

:-)

by miacids, I meant all other carnivorans.

Yeah. That's what everyone thought till last year.

At the SVP meeting last year, a great big phylogenetic analysis of taxa from all over Eutheria was presented... it had miacids and carnivorans very, very, very far apart. I don't remember where exactly, and I expect a lot to change before publication, but...

The one thing I can say for sure is that Hyaenodontidae comes from Africa, not on stratigraphic but on phylogenetic grounds. Floréal Solé has probably published on this recently.

So David, does that mean hyaenodonts are indeed afrotheres? If so, I'd expect them to be closest to afrosoricidans. It would certainly be neat to have afrotheres include a clade of macro-carnivores.

So David, does that mean hyaenodonts are indeed afrotheres?

Who knows.

It's of course the most obvious (and the most intriguing! and coolest!) possibility, but AFAIK no phylogenetic analysis exists. Worse yet, Afrotheria itself still hasn't been found in any morphology-based analysis, though support is slowly accumulating.

It's also worth noting, I think, that an African origin for Afrotheria isn't entirely unassailable (so even if hyaenodontids come from Africa, that doesn't necessarily make them likely afrotheres). Many basal afrotheres or potential afrotheres (such as basal tubulidentates, apheliscines, anthracobunids or phenacolophids) are found outside Africa. But then, it's only in recent years that we've started getting much published on early Caenozoic African mammals.

If Africa became some kind of "Australia" across Cretaceous-Paleocene boundary, remaining insulated until Eocene (or Latest Paleocene, since Primates reached it someway), its adaptative irradiation surely must include some carnivore group. So, in Paleogene, we had as macro-carnivores, beside diatryma-like birds and ground-running crocs, Borhyaenoids (Sparassodonts) in South America (and maybe Antarctica), Mesonychians, Oxyenids and Arctocyonids in Euramerica, Mesonychians in Asia, Hyenodontids in Africa (later reaching Holarctica), e no known group in Australia.

no known group in Australia

In all fairness, that's possibly because our knowledge of the early Caenozoic in Australia is pretty much non-existent.

Sure, What I meant to say is that no group is known, because there's no Paleocene site in Australia. Oldest is Tingamarra, from Eocene.

If you know more [about Pyrokerberus, the alleged mesonychid with "horns" (actually, ossicones like a giraffe's)], please share.

Nothing scholarly, just the mentioned wikipedia stubs and a few sketches at Deviant Art with the adjacent discussion in the comments, see here:
http://avancna.deviantart.com/art/Death-Valley-Ungulates-BW-91196855
and, intriguingly, one comment in a thread about cars in a (libertarian?) forum, see here:
http://ftp.grylliade.org/node/2668?page=1

Oops. That last comment was mine. However, all my knowledge of the alleged Pyrokerberus derives entirely from those two appearances on the deviantart.com site. (I guess someone could ask those two artists where they got their information from.)

And yes, that is a libertarian site, but discussion there also ranges widely to other topics. (Even libertarians get sick of discussing libertarianism sometimes. :) )

I posted a little (nothing substantial, just a clarification) about Pyrokerberus, but my comment is awaiting moderation because it has more than one or two links in it, apparently.

Meanwhile, here is some info from the artist "=avancna" at the Deviant Art site:

Pyrokerberus nekrobotrys is a very large "horned" mesonychid from the Late Eocene of Death Valley, California. It had ossicone-like crenulations, and was related to Pachyaena.

Antillodaeodon californicum is a small entelodont with "horns" similar to those found on the true pig, Kubanochoerus, in addition to pom-pom-like warts on its lower jaw.

Both were mired in a swamp when they died, in that, A. californicum was chased into the swamp, where it was mired, then was apparently crushed to death when P. nekrobotrys leaped on top of it. From some of the damage/trauma to the skeleton of A. californicum, it appeared that P. nekrobotrys floundered for a little while before drowning.

[...]

They were just recently discovered last summer [in 2007], and have yet to be formally described or even studied. I would give you more information, but I'm not at liberty to do that, unfortunately. The people at UCLA who told me about these two did so so I can use them in the book I'm working on. Hopefully, there will be more information out by then.

Source.

Also, the artist "~patriatyrannus" at the Deviant Art site seems to have got his information from "=avancna."