What would it take to wipe out human rabies?

Yeah... April Renee also encouraged people not to vaccinate their pets... Because you wouldnt get sued out the ass after your rabid dog killed someone because you wouldnt vaccinate it...

LOL ! Wipe out rabis, where did I read that before? Oh yeah, that Louis Pasteur fraud said that too. Vaccination! But 100 years later, on scienceblogs, same question again. How can we get rid of rabies? What a bunch of dopes you are with your science will set free fantasy. May I be the first to pop that little fucking bubble of yours, and send you hurtling back to the truth? You can't get rid of rabies any more than you can get rid of the more general phenomenon of the epileptical crises. Unless, of course, you find a way to get get rid of things like panic and fear.

The things you can get rid of, very easily this time, are the things that were made up by greedy men. Like HIV causes AIDS and the avian flu pandemic. HIV=Aids=Death? Stop believing that bullshit today and tomorrow the equation is gone.

Thanks, Tara. I had no idea rabies was so potentially controllable, at least in humans and dogs.

The big problems get most of the attention, as you said. So we need to be reminded of the smaller ones.

Damn, those vaccinato-fascists have had us confused all this time! All those people who got tetanus and polio just needed to stop believing their infections would cause harm, and then BAM! Problem solved. Where was jspreen when we needed him/her?

Sure Jan, and if we stopped believing in gravity we could save a lot on airline flights too. Nobody has ever isolated gravity according to my rules of isolation, so it must not exist right? It's just the greedy airline industry wanting to sell plane tickets so the made people believe in gravity to keep them from levitating... It's all a corporate/industrial conspiracy!

Of course, Duke. Stupid examples prove others are wrong and make sure you are right. What a dope you are, man.

Oh my god, Dr. Maniotis was right, the anthrax attacks were an inside job, the history channel has concluded this in an investigation, that it was the Ames strain............And you guys calls us nuts! This gives even more credence to the Nicolsons claim if illegal mycoplasma biowarfare testing in his book Project day Lily. See it and weep, The anthrax attacks as concluded by an investigation by the history channel was an inside job. Are you "scientists" going to respond or just name call as usual?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdamOzrfZI0

Coolaid,

Do you know the difference between fact and fiction? Project Day Lily is a work of fiction; the authors say so themselves.

I'm going to be sorry I asked, I'll betcha, but WTF are the "epileptical crises" that jspreen mentioned?

Has anyone here known anybody who has died from rabies?

I certainly haven't. Sounds like continued hype.

Rabies has a very high mortality rate. I have seen kids sentto infectious disease hospital with rabies who as I heard never made out.

No Project day Lily is a true story that had to be slightly fictionilized to protect the Nicolsons sources in the Pentagon and stay out of court. Remember they were 2 of the top cancer researchers at the MD Cancer center and were threatened by Armed DOD agents when the found Mycoplasma Incognitus in the blood of Sick gwi vets, a microbe that Shyh ching Lo from the army just published on killing every animal he inoculated.

Nice way this country treats its vets and the people that try and help them. Its really sad that some of you people couldnt care less.

What would it take to wipe out germ theory denial?

Rabies!

Sorry Cooler, but it's a publicity stunt. The same one used for the DaVinci Code.

Cooler,

Sascha is right. If you start believing in Project Day Lily or that the US government uses maffia methods, you're on a slippery conspiracy slope that'll make it impossible for you to distinguish fact from fiction. You'll start believing historical fables such as biological warfare used against native American Indians, slavery, at least one nuclear weapon dropped on Japan for no reason, Tuskegee style medical experiments, Napalm used on Vietnamese civilians during that heroic and well-intentioned effort to stem the tide of Communism, that Saddam was our best friend at the time he was conducting chemical warfare on Iranians and Kurds, that there were no WMDs secretly smuggled to Syria under the watchful eye of our spy sattelites, immunity from the rule of law under the Patriot Act and similar documents for the Government and large corporations, such as pharmaceuticals, chemical manufacturers and latest the telecommunication companies.

HIV causes AIDS Cooler! Embrace it before it's too late.

Cooler,

Sascha is right. If you start believing in Project Day Lily or that the US government uses mafia methods, you're on a slippery conspiracy slope that'll make it impossible for you to distinguish fact from fiction. You'll start believing historical fables such as biological warfare used against native American Indians, slavery, at least one nuclear weapon dropped on Japan for no reason, Tuskegee style medical experiments, Napalm used on Vietnamese civilians during that heroic and well-intentioned effort to stem the tide of Communism, that Saddam was our best friend at the time he was conducting chemical warfare on Iranians and Kurds, that there were no WMDs secretly smuggled to Syria under the watchful eye of our spy sattelites, immunity from the rule of law under the Patriot Act and similar documents for the Government and large corporations, such as pharmaceuticals, chemical manufacturers and latest the telecommunication companies.

HIV causes AIDS Cooler! Embrace it before it's too late.

Third time's a charm, MEC? Going for a hat trick?

Slavery is a fable? Hiroshima and Nagasaki are fables? The use of Napalm in Vietnam is a fable? Halabja is a fable? Sadam's relations with the US is a fable? Tuskagee is a fable?

You have a very strange view of the world, MEC.

Has anyone here known anybody who has died from rabies?

I certainly haven't. Sounds like continued hype.

If you aren't vaccinated, or given the vaccine soon after exposure, it is extremely fatal. There are stll 1 or 2 deaths a year in the US from rabies. There are an estimated 30,000 rabies deaths a year in the Indian subcontinent, where treatment is not so available.

While deaths from rabies are rare, it is a terrible way to die and is almost always fatal once symptoms develop.

In late August of 2001, I found a dead bat floating in our dog's water dish by the front door as left for work. The dog had spent the night on the deck. I fished the bat out, taking appropriate precautions and was going to throw it in the community bear proof garbage bins (we live in a small village in foothills of southwestern Alberta). Halfway to my car, it occured to me that a neuroligically healthy bat shouldn't drown in a water dish. I took the bat with me and after a few phone calls, I was told that a vet from the Canadian Food Iinspection Agency would come and pick up my bat. We also discovered were a month late for the dog's rabies booster.

About a week later, I got a phone call from another CFIA vet who said he would be coming out to assess the dog (and us) and make a decision regarding quarintine. He examined the dog and our fence and decided to place the dog in a loose quarantine (leash walks with 2 people and tied up or accompanied in the yard) for a month. He also told us about reading the diary of backpacker from Calgary who had contacted rabies from a bat while camping. This individual did not feel the bite, all he felt was the bat brushing against his face. We also learned that often rabies results in a severe depression rather than the steretypical agression. Wild animals with rabies may act tame, resulting in contact with humans. There was a case in Jasper National Park where some children were playing with a rabid bat. If a bat collides with you, you should probably assume it is rabid and assume that you have been bitten even if you did not feel anything.

Veterinarians and Animal Health Technicians are usually vaccinated for rabies as a precaution.

He was using some brilliant satire Sachsa

No. It was a typical strawman argument. Give examples of events nobody disputes and then claim they are all disputed. Adding a few truly disputed events helps to associate these with the real events.

"No. It was a typical strawman argument."

And an non-sequitor. It reminds me of how 9/11 troofers like to claim that Operation Northwoods, a 40 year old Pentagon reccommendation that was rejected by the State department and never implemented, should automatically be taken as evidence for a 9/11 conspiracy. It's innuendo, and saves them a lot of effort as far as actually making a solid case goes.

Sascha, it was satire.

But tell me which are the few events you say are "truly" disputed? Let's have your definition of "truly disputed".

There are stll 1 or 2 deaths a year in the US from rabies.

Wow! So, in the US, many more people die from slipping in the bathtub than from rabies. So, why are we even talking about a virtually non-existent risk, and why is the host using standard propaganda technigues (snarling dog picture) to make people think rabies is a problem?

Well, to begin with your contention regarding the use of biological warfare against native Americans. No one disputes that diseases introduced by the European invaders caused a widespread death; but that this was intentional is disputed.

Something is truly disputed when a sizable portion of the people involved in the field do not agree with a given conjecture. The notion of sizable is a disputable notion but it should be taken as representing more than just a few researchers.

Read the history of scurvy on wikipedia, the cure was found hundereds of years in advance by tribespeople and a doctor named Lind. It was Ignored for hundereds of years by mainstream experts because of their arrogance and stupidity. Thousands of people died horrific needless deaths because of how stupid small cadres of powerful experts can be. Sound Familiar?

Consensus means nothing, as experts have shown themselves to reach a consensus not based on facts and evidence, but rather groupthink, politics, arrogance and money etc. Its the strengh of the hypothesis that matters, not a buch of second rate scientists that mindlessly pursue a bad theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scurvy

Mindlessly pursue an idiotic hypothesis and refuse to pursue others.

Reminds me of whats going on today, A couple of brilliant scientists, Lo and Nicolson found mycoplasma penetrans/incognitus to be pathenogenic in humans and a clear correlation with several diseases Like CFS etc(misdiagnoses in reality), but ignored because of massive stupidity by the establishment, while everyones focused on hiv, which might turn out to be harmless. This is what Nicolson found in sick GWI vets and 50% of civilains with CFS.

Lo SC, Buchholz CL, Wear DJ, Hohm RC, Marty AM.
Department of Infectious and Parasitic Diseasesi Pathology, Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, Washington, D.C. 20306-6000.

The newly recognized human pathogenic mycoplasma M. fermentans (incognitus strain) causes a fatal systemic infection in experimental monkeys, infects patients with AIDS, and apparently is associated with a fatal disease in previously healthy non-AIDS patients. An apparently immunocompetent male who lacked evidence of HIV infection developed fever, malaise, progressive weight loss, and diarrhea and had extensive tissue necrosisi involving liver and spleen. M. fermentans (incognitus strain) was centered at the advancing margins of these necrotizing lesions. Following the treatment of 300 mg doxycycline per day for 6 weeks, he recovered fully. He has no fever or diarrhea, and his abnormal liver function tests have returned to normal. He regained all lost strength and 14 kg of lost weight and has remained disease free for more than 1 year.

Wow! So, in the US, many more people die from slipping in the bathtub than from rabies. So, why are we even talking about a virtually non-existent risk, and why is the host using standard propaganda technigues (snarling dog picture) to make people think rabies is a problem?

Fleming, did you go over to Correlations, or to the Judson piece, and read? Worldwide, there's a human death from rabies almost every 10 minutes--most of them in children. The vast majority of these rabies cases in humans come from exposure to rabid dogs. Therefore, if we'd spend a fairly small amount of money to institute mass vaccination campaigns in dogs, we could, as the title notes, practically wipe out rabies in humans--as we've done here in the U.S., where as noted, there's only a handful of human rabies cases each year (and most of those are due to wild animal exposure, such as bats and skunks).

55,000 human deaths every year from rabies may be small potatoes to you, but I think it's a travesty for a disease that's almost entirely preventable.

Sascha, the most famous example of biological warfare against Indians is the Lord Amherst case. Here it is my impresson it is not the intention that's questioned, but whether the deed was actually carried out succesfully. Here's a brief overview including links to original documents:

http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/amherst/lord_jeff.html
I don't know if a significant portion of people in the field dispute the letters referred to. But I don't think you can find many cases of intent that are not disputed.
Even official government guidelines or tacit policies are seldom specific enough to establish intent in a concrete case.

Take for instance Abu Ghraib. The intent as found in the guidelines, or in the prevailing "culture" from Rumsfeld down, to torture was not clear enough to convict anybody of importance.

At the same time a torture case in Guantanamo was resolved
precisely by appealing to what was within the "scope of the job". The "scope of the job" being defined by the court in such a way that torture became "foreseeable".

The court further ruled that detainees in Guantanamo are by definition not persons, which again makes torture
"foreseeable". What the court is talking about here is precisely the prevailing "culture" which dissipates and deflects questions of intention and guilt.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/24654.html

The two contrasting cases from Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo demonstrate nicely that intention and guilt can be deflected up and down the chain of command depending on what is needed in the paticular cases, making it possible for a significant number of people in the field to argue whatever suits their personal agenda.

Now compare these examples with the Spanish, French, English, American armies and the intent behind their - and the majority of settlers'- conduct against native Indians. Intent being in the eyes of the beholder, it should be easy to grasp why the whole question of whether Indians were "intentionally" infected with smallpox on this or that occasion is a red herring.

There will always be "aignificant dispute" about a fact as long as it serves the needs of the powerful.

Isn't "rabies" just a new name for old diseases? And the "vaccination" push, a distraction from the real problems, such as lack of money to buy books by Dr. Null?

There will always be "aignificant dispute" about a fact as long as it serves the needs of the powerful.

There will always be a "aignificant dispute" about a fact as long as anyone disputes it. One needn't be "powerful" to dispute a fact. Disputing is often the recourse of the powerless. While the "powerful" are expected to present evidence when they dispute a fact, the powerless--rendered somewhat less so today by leveling media like the internet--are not so hampered.

Today, the powerful (except in a completely totalitarian state) are unlikely to spend their power trying to "change" a fact. They are usually unable, and if they try, they must suffer the consequences. Witness what happened with the US Administration and WMDs. Careers ended, popularities plummeted, and to what end? The facts remain. There are no WMDs in Iraq.

Unencumbered by power they could lose, disputers of fact merely raise their questions and prop them up with streams of nonsense. Other outcasts observe, admire, and glom on to the new denialist movement.

LOL!

Brave Sir Elkie, I always knew you were a great social scientist and political philosopher.

This one has to go into my archives. Could you please sign with your real name Sir Elkie? There's a few "leveling media" outlets I'd like to send this to and I want you to get full credit for all the profundities.

Why would you want to wipe out teachers in the Judaic faith??

Just messing with you. I do have a serious question: what's with the picture of the dog?

I know it's a rabid dog (as far as I can tell from the attribution), but what do you perceive it as contributing to your blog on this topic?

I see this in magazines and newspapers a lot (I first really started to notice it on news.bbc.co.uk. It's like they're forbidden to post an article unless there's a picture with it!).

The media will put a picture in there whether or not it has anything to do with the article. Typically if the story has to do with bodies, they have a picture of a woman. If it has to do with sports, it'll be a picture of a man. If it's about babies there will be a picture of a baby which usually has nothing whatsoever to do with the story.

Do they think their readers don't know what a baby or a body looks like?!

I know we're a visual species, but this really seems to me to be an odd phenomenon. Does including a picture, regardless of relevancy, increase readership or is it nothing more than an icon?

If so, what's the point of an icon which doesn't convey anything (or anything more) about the article's topic than the headline already has? It certainly doesn't seem to improve understanding.

I can see the point of a pic if, say, Hubble digs up a fabulous image of something out in space - we've never seen it before and in the case of the so-called "Pillars of Creation". It's hard to really imagine that without seeing the pic.

Most of us have never directly encountered a rabid dog before, but the description itself conjures the image so what more does the pic contribute?

Of course, you're entitled to do whatever you want with your own blog. This isn't a criticism, but I'm curious about why people do this.

Elkie darling, while I agree with you on WMDs in Iraq, your analogy is confused and incoherent.

Look into David Frum, who coined the term "axis of evil" and realize that he is equivalent to Professor Moore.

The analogy holds up precisely considering this man's career.

From "The American Conservative", 1/28/08, pg 22(Daniel McCarthy):

"On March 25, 2003, one day before the Iraq War began, 'National Review' published online the latest iteration of Frum's favorite theme."

He restated his "hit list" of "antiwar conservatives" a "motley assortment of libertarian and coservatives" including "Lew Rockwell"(!) and "Pat Buchanan": "all of them" with one exception, "opposed the Iraq War".

They, of course, are the equivalent of Peter Duesberg, Ettiene deHarven, Heinrick Kremer, Kary Mullis, etc.
Why? Because they backed it up by analyses that demonstrated critical and rational thinking.

Frum has more for us: he made a charge of "'terror denial' against Robert Novack for disputing Condoleeza Rice's claim that Hezbollah was a greater menace than Al Quaeda; he was guilty of 'espousing defeatism' for writing that the CIA 'is viewed by its Capitol Hill overseers as incapable of targeting Bin Laden,' which, of course it was. Frum insinuated, Frum misrepresented, Frum quoted out of context; the ONE THING HE DIDN'T DO WAS GRAPPLE WITH HIS ENEMIES' ARGUMENTS. Truth was not his goal - only persecution."

And just now I heard on Air America News that Bush is going to address HIV/AIDS tonight.

Manufacturing in the American economy has been pretty much reduced to weapons of war against other populations.

This applies to arms and unnecessary pharmaceuticals, which from this thread it can be inferred that new vaccines for the world will be part of the so-called economic stimulus package.

Thanks Tara for drawing my attention to this.

And OF COURSE, Elkie, take a cheap shot at Gary Null in the best Frum/Moore tradition. He's not here to defend himself with his mastery of the literature on alternatives to vaccinations.

Psst Genie umm its not a complement comparing Pat Buchanan and P Diddy. I wonder whose more insulted Buchanan or Deusberg. Who cares they can both go to hell.

The saddest thing about this thread is that it is clear that if the effort to eradicate rabies is successful then the denialists will just go on claiming that it was all a hoax in the first place.

Meanwhile I'll wait for Jan Spreen, Gary Null and assorted nutcases to infect themselves with rabies (and quarantine themselves)

Dr. Noble, that's very insigtful of you, but why wait? I think I'll just take your bait right now.

Given the general character of rabies symptoms, how many of those 55,000 rabies cases yearly, all in "resource poor settings", were confirmed by virus isolation or another gold standard method?

Since all rabies cases are found in "resource poor settings," according to (pan-virus denialist?) MEC, he or she might wish to contact the families of three US transplant recipients who contracted rabies and died in 2004, or the family of the donor, who had rabies when he died. They will surely be comforted to know that rabies exists only in Asia and Africa...at least in the mind of MEC.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5326a6.htm

MEC's point on the lack of molecular confirmation in "those 55,000 rabies cases" (deaths, actually) is good, though. Without molecular diagnostics in every case, it is possible that some of these deaths could have resulted from other animal-borne viruses that elicit rabies-like symptoms: another lyssavirus, for example, or a paramyxovirus like Nipah, or an as-yet uncharacterized virus.

The lack of 100% molecular confirmation of rabies in resource-poor areas hardly means rabies doesn't exist. If it did, we would have to doubt all accounts of rabies from the ancients until the past century. Perhaps the disease isn't real. Could "rabies" be a response of the body to the stress of being bitten by certain kinds of animals, leading to oxidative stress and encephalitis brought on by negative thinking? Or is "rabies" the result of psychological and economic oppression by the scientific orthodoxy and large pharmaceutical firms?

MEC's implication of poverty as the direct cause of 55,000 deaths as nothing more than a twisted joke. Consider this: Healthy child is bitten by sick, stray dog. Child develops encephalitis. Child dies. After reviewing the case, WHO assigns death to rabies. It could have been another virus, granted, or another infectious agent. And it could be that rabies or other viruses have not been combatted effectively in the child's country because of economic oppression and institutionalized racism. The rabies, though, or a similar virus, was the direct cause of death.

Tara would see rabies eliminated. MEC shrugs off 55,000 deaths per year, denying the problem exists.

Meanwhile I'll wait for Jan Spreen, Gary Null and assorted nutcases to infect themselves with rabies (and quarantine themselves)

Now what difference would that make, you blockhead? People did it in the past, for example to prove that cholera isn't caused by bacteria.
It's such a repetitive story. A guy infects himself, stays perfectly healthy and says to the bystanders: "Look, I didn't fall ill and thus I have given you solid proof that what you think causes the disease simply causes nothing at all".
But exactly like good ol' chrissie when he's trying to grab the meaning of some Aids-Dissident masterpiece, the bystanders don't get it. They've been told for ages what causes cholera, influenza, rabies, Aids or whatever. So they know and each and every person who goes against their knowledge is a nutcase. The armies of dummies, they won't change, ever. They can't, the hardly used brain's too rusted.

Sir Elkie,

The organ transplant and subsequent viral "isolation" story is very convincing indeed. However, I must persist in my insenitive generalization that rabies is something that happens to Third Worlders.

I must also insist that it's not always easy to know where virology stops and toxicology begins considering the curious overlap in symptoms. Especially in the case of encephalitis, as you are so keen to point out, Dr. Elkie, there is a whole host of viruses ready to accept the blame. A virus for every occasion so to speak.

And if it ain't a dog that bit the unfortunate child, it's a bat or a mosquito or bacteria creeping into the food. Not in a single out of those 55,000 cases could we entertain the idea it could be toxic pollution, a drug, vaccination, right Dr. Elkie?

Btw, we all know you are big on sociological and political issues, especially the relationship between the powerful (those that would never twist a fact) and the powerless (those that take advantage of equalizing technology), so perhaps you could tell us how the economic oppression and institutionalized racism causing death aound the world comes about?

Like the good doctor, Stubbins Ffirth, who managed to apply Yellow Fever to him in every way possible except the actual route of transmissions, methods included drinking the vomit of one suffering from yellow fever, and covering his body with their urine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stubbins_Ffirth

Jspreen, don't forget when infecting yourself with rabies, you must inject it directly into your brain because, as the article linked by Tara explains, the "RO" of rabies virus is less than 2. If you inject it in your leg, there's somewhere betwee 0 and 10% risk of getting infected - dependent on just how resource poor the setting is I presume. By "infected", I take it, is meant infection of the brain. Hence, it's hardly fair if Dr. Noble has to reject the germ theory of encephalitis just because you injected the stuff in the wrong spot.

Rabies is a result of poppers abuse. Get with the programme.

Jspreen, don't forget when infecting yourself with rabies, you must inject it directly into your brain

How could I possibly forget? The crazy dogs exclusively plant their rabies infected teeth in the brain of their victims, hence the danger. Everybody knows that.

You don't need to get it directly into your brain, although that saves it a lot of work. But you need places with lots of nerves, which is why bites on the hands/fingers tend to be worse than some place like your leg, there are tons of nerves in your fingers.

Although you probably don't care.

Godz this guy MEClaus is stupid. Mosquito and bacteria causing rabies!! Sheesh it is manly from dogs!!

Prev Vet Med. 2000 Mar 29;44(1-2):73-85.
Community-based active surveillance for rabies in Machakos District, Kenya.
Kitala PM, McDermott JJ, Kyule MN, Gathuma JM.

This place has highest rabies in Kenya, 97% animal bites of people are from dogs, most rabies is from dogs. Some one who has rabies signs, if they got bit from a dog they have rabies not a mosquito bite, not a flu vaccine. Poor Claus needs to get out more. Godz above.

P Diddy ... you stumped me with that Adele ...

But these rhabdoviruses, they should be easy to see before we go shooting up those dogs?

And Adele, Elkie, it says they're pleomorphic. Can you tell me if that has anything to do with Bechamp? And how about taking a look at their cousins, Ebola, from getting bit by bats. Shouldn't we do something about saving Africans from that horrible fate?

Who's saying they don't exist?

In any event I hear Pat Buchanan calling ... what's that Pat ... the Euro has doubled in value against the dollar ... China and Japan have $2 trillion in cash reserves? ... Don't they know about Bono? What? ... the Arabs also have $2 trillion in petrodollars ... Can't they see the value of our biotechnology? ... Does this mean the world doesn't want our toxic drugs?

http://virology.net/Big_Virology/BVRNArhabdo.html

Morphology: Distinct viral structures visible in thin sections of infected tissue; virions enveloped, or not enveloped (in viruses that are considered possible species of the family); virions slightly pleomorphic; virions in unfixed preparations bullet-shaped, or bacilliform (in cases of plant viruses when fixed prior to negative staining); virions 45-100 nm in diameter; virions 100-430 nm long. Surface projections of envelope distinct; spikes (5-10 nm long and about 3 nm in diameter. They consist of trimers of the virus glycoprotein); dispersed evenly over all the surface (except for the quasiplanar end of bullet-shaped viruses. A honeycomb pattern of peplomers is observed on the surface of some viruses). Capsids filamentous (when uncoiled). Nucleocapsid consists of an RNA and N protein complex together with an NS (M1) proteins and is surrounded by a lipid envelope containing M (M2) protein. The nucleocapsid contains transcriptase activity and is infectious. Nucleocapsids with obvious regular surface structure; uncoiled about 700 nm long; uncoiled 20 nm in diameter, or 30-70 nm in diameter. Symmetry helical. Nucleocapsids cross-banded (spaced 4.5-5 nm, in negatively stained preparations and thin sections). Incomplete virus particles present (defective particles proportionally shorter). Virions only of one kind (that is a virus with defective genome, usually significantly shorter than the full length).

Adele, the minimum requirement for participation is a working knowledge of the alphabet. You don't get rabies from being bitten by bacteria either, yet I mentioned bacteria didn't I?

Would it be because I was discussing causes of encephalitis, whereof rabies virus is just one, with the distinguished Sir Elkie? Have somebody read the Comment out loud for you then make up your own mind.

Or better yet, leave it be and go audition for cheerleader or something. In your case it's probably easier to lose a few pounds than gaining a mind of your own.

And Adele, Elkie, it says they're pleomorphic. Can you tell me if that has anything to do with Bechamp?

No, it has absolutely nothing to do with Bechamp.

Pleomorphic means that the virus can vary slightly in morphology. The RNA however doesn't change. One virus does not magically transform into another as Bechamp claimed.

Mr Natural/Gene Semon/RTmutator you are completely nuts. Go find a rabid dog and get bitten.

PS. Has Andrew Maniotis been into the lab reagents again? Read his comment on Tara's Correlations article.

Maybe he overdosed on squalene.

Tara,

Germany has had nice success in its effort to eradicate rabies. Not only through the traditional vaccination of pets, but also by vaccinating WILDLIFE... in the this case FOXES againt it a well. With an oral vaccine in a bait.

A few links:
http://www.eurosurveillance.org/em/v10n11/1011-228.asp

Pdf warning: http://ec.europa.eu/food/fs/ah_pcad/eradication/art5_germany.pdf

It has worked so well, the boom in the fox population has caused another problem:

A boom in Echinococcus multilocularis. Which is a parasite of mice and foxes (can also infest cats & dogs to a lesser extent)and can also infest humans (but this is a dead end host)... where it causes liver damage. Often extensive.

Humans can pick it up through eating egss on wild fruit, greens ect. gathered in the forest or in a meadow.

Since the fox population is booming, because rabies is gone, human infestations with the worm are increasing as well.

-Jag

MEC sneers,
perhaps you could tell us how the economic oppression and institutionalized racism causing death aound the world comes about,
and suggests that rabies deaths may result from environmental toxins or vaccines. MEC leaves out any evidence for this position, nor does he explain how, say, the after-effects of radioactive fallout from French and American atomic weapons tests can selectively kill children in Pacific Rim countries several days after they have been bitten by dogs.

MEC's attitude towards 55,000 rabies deaths, primarily among children in Asia and Africa, is indicative of a disturbingly colonialist mentality. MEC appears to consider individuals slightly less Caucasian than he to be not only "resource-poor," but also too intellectually deficient to determine the likely cause of a rabies death.

As mentioned yesterday, the typical history in a rabies case involves a recent encounter with a dog. One wonders if MEC has visited the links Tara provided.

It may come as a shock to MEC that there are actual doctors and other medical workers in "Third World" countries, who are capable of examining bite victims and interviewing their families. Even more of a shock to MEC may be the presence of actual molecular biology labs in these countries that routinely examine samples from suspected rabid animals. And most shocking to those who question the intelligence of people in the Third World is the awareness of rabies as a disease and the need to seek out medical attention and to identify the biting animal after possible exposure.

Fortunately, public health authorities in many African and Asian countries are more serious about the problem of rabies than Aetiology's resident denialist-colonialist. In some countries, progress is apparent.

Denduangboripant, et al, "Transmission dynamics of rabies virus in Thailand: Implications for disease control" in BMC Infectious Diseases, 2005, analyze rabies in Thailand based upon flow of genetic information. In Thailand, a massive post-exposure prophylaxis program cut rabies deaths ten-fold in a decade:

In Thailand, the substantial decline in human rabies deaths from almost 200 a decade ago to less than 20 in 2003, has occurred due to the huge and continuously escalating financial obligation in the annual budget required to supply rabies biologicals for human PEP. More than 400,000 patients received PEP in 2003, as compared to approximately 90,000 in 1991 [Ministry of Public Health (MOPH) annual report].

(Please, don't tell Dr. Maniotis that a four-fold increase in vaccination resulted in a ten-fold decrease in deaths.)

During the same time, unfortunately, human deaths in Bangkok increased slightly. This was due to the urban canine population's approximate tripling during the 1990s. And many of these feral or "community" dogs carry rabies, in Bangkok and elsewhere in the country:

The percentage of rabies infectivity of samples sent to diagnostic laboratories all over the country remains high, within the range of 30-40% (MOPH annual report).

Rabies is usually transmitted by dog bite. Molecular diagnostics reveal the presence of rabies in dogs and, in some cases, in humans. The simplest explanation for a death with characteristic symptoms after recent exposure to a rabid dog is rabies. Not environmental toxins. Not vaccines. Not negative thinking.

Though I agree that global vaccination of pet dogs would go a long way towards controlling the spread of rabies (as evidenced by the huge success at rabies control in regions which require that all pets be current on their rabies vaccine), it may be overstating it to say that this would eliminate human rabies. As it is, only extremely diligent efforts on the part of animal control agencies is keeping the numbers down. It doesn't take much to reintroduce it to the wild mammals, which are not being vaccinated. I'm pleased to hear that Germany is vaccinating wild animals. That would be necessary to truly wipe out rabies; eliminate the reservoir.

Although dog bites are the classic mode of transmission, it can be carried by any mammal, and transmitted by other routes. Drinking milk is one. It is therefore imperative to vaccinate dairy cattle. There are recorded cases of rabies transmission by drinking the milk of a rabid cow, and I've read of one tragic case where a woman contracted rabies and then passed it on to her infant through her breastmilk. She did not know she was rabid at the time. It's also been transmitted in slaughterhouses and through consumption of raw bushmeat, though this is probably very uncommon. Recently, there was a rabies scare where a man participated in a flagellation ritual someplace in southeast Asia (IIRC) and subsequently developed rabies symptoms and died; other participants in the ritual were vaccinated as a precaution.

Calli Arcale,

Bless you!

Dearest Sir Elkie,

You want to know how nuclear testing could affect primarily children - in the Pacific Rim or elsewhere?

Elementary Dr. Watson: The genetic mutations as a rule
show up strongest in the children. Same thing with AZT and agent orange, if you don't mind me referring back to previous Comments in this thread. Have you ever read the labels warning pregnant or breastfeeding mothers against using a certain drug? well there's a clue for you.

Of course encephalitis or whatever will be attributed to rabies via a dog bite if a subsequent interview can establish the child has been playing with a dog recently. Otherwise you can just pick and choose between every other animal in the kingdom, because they are all - every single one - reservoirs of encephalitis-causing microorganisms.

I'm happy to learn they've got "actual molecular biology labs (in 3rd. World countries) that routinely examine samples from suspected rabid animals." Only Thailand isn't exactly in the top along with India and Sub-saharan Africa in terms of rabies cases. So to return to my original question, how many of those 55,000 annual cases are confirmed as being caused by the rabies virus?

I see for Thailand, which isn't resource poor at all compared to real 3rd. world countries, you say,

The percentage of rabies infectivity of samples sent to diagnostic laboratories all over the country remains high, within the range of 30-40% (MOPH annual report.

Am I to take that as admitting that far less than half of all suspected rabies cases, animal and human, are confirmed even when referred to a testing lab?

No, as I wrote, and as I quoted from the cited paper, when stray dogs were tested as part of a surveillance program in Thailand, 30-40% tested positive for rabies.

When samples from human rabies patients diagnosed by symptoms are analyzed, the molecular tests usually confirm the diagnosis. This is the case in the "First World," the comparatively rich parts of the "Third World," and the comparatively poor parts of the "Third World."

I'm so glad I encountered these people. I'm glad I don't have to worry about germs and virii as they do not cause disease in humans. Here in Europe the Rabies hysteria fomented by the pharma-fascists can finally be put to rest as it would appear it wasn't the rabid dog but nuclear testing on Muroroa that is to blame. Thank you.

You're quite right, Sascha. The ancient Greeks who called rabies "lyssa" were wrong about dogs transmitting the disease. They were observing the effects of nuclear tests over two millenia in the future. It's an interesting time travel question, but if the Manhattan Project had never gone forward, I suppose rabies would never have existed, for the ancients or for us.

Of course MEC might remind us that squalene adjuvants can also retroactively cause dog-bite-synergizing genetic defects in the distant ancestors of vaccine recipients.

Hence, there is more than one possible chemical/environmental cause for MEC's hypothetical genetic defects that usually express themselves as "rabies" only after interaction of the host with a sick dog or other animal.

As such, thinking like MEC (who believes that, since multiple viruses are known to cause encephalitis, any given virus such as rabies cannot be the cause of encephalitis), we must conclude that MEC's theory of environmental stresses or chemical insults as the cause of rabies is false.

We already knew this for squalene, of course. As Mr. Natural educated us recently, a "pleomorphic" something cannot cause anything. Squalene is combined with surfactants in different ratios in different adjuvants, so these adjuvants are "pleomorphic," cannot cause anything, and probably don't exist. In the same way, I do not fear being hit by a car because cars have different shapes and sizes. Therefore, they cannot harm pedestrians.

Wonderful, this denialism.

Sir Elkie,

I hate to spoil it for you since you're obviously feeling very clever, however, I don't seem to remember where I wrote rabies/encephalitis is never caused by a virus. Would you care to refresh our memories by a quote so we can better enjoy your wit?

In the meantime, here's more wonderful denial for you:

There are still many aspects of the pathogenicity of rabies that are unknown. For example, we have no explanation for the long incubation period (up to 6 years). Furthermore, new patterns of rabies infection present a problem for epidemiologists and virologists alike. There are several cases of human rabies in which there was no history of a bite.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9218287?dopt=Abstract

I'm sure it's quite beyond you or Tara how this relates to a suspicion that viruses might sometimes not be nearly as guilty as charged.

Perhaps the dogs involved were using hard drugs or the kids were on abusing poppers?

Ex abnego, semper aliquid novi.

MEC,

Just because there's no history of a bite doesn't mean there's no evidence of a virus. I don't have any access to an electronic version of that article where I am currently so I don't know what it says beyond the abstract, but we know that there are rabies cases occasionally where there's a known bat exposure, but no known bat bite, for example. This is sometimes because the patient was sleeping when the bat was in the room, and they don't recall a bite. Or it could be because they had contact with the bat but didn't realize it bit them because the teeth are so small and may have only grazed the skin. There are numerous reasons why one could get rabies without a *documented* bite, but the characteristic symptoms, especially when coupled with serology or identification of the virus, show that rabies develops all the same.

Additionally, regarding the incubation period, that's not a surprise either. We don't, to my knowledge, have a good explanation for the long incubation period of syphilis, or varicella zoster (and other neurotropic herpes-family viruses) either. It's simply a difficult thing to study--it's much easier to study infection in the acute phase than during a long latent period.

Sascha, you mean the dogs not involved were on drugs?

It's hard to determine where the lack is greatest, wit or literacy.

Tara, it's no wonder there isn't always a documented history of a bite, since it could be several years ago and caused by any "warm-blooded animal." It makes the viral rabies/encephalitis/CNS hypothesis impossible to argue with in each case. That was my modest point.

Beyond that I never cease to be amazed that it's considered dandy science to defend every new failure with the previous, or explain one unknown with the next. You say there's a whole host of viruses where we have no explanation for the incubation period as if it somehow makes everything ok, we can all go to sleep now cuz there are no monsters - no real ones anyway.

I cannot access that paper right now either, but it does say "new patterns of rabies infection present a problem for epidemiologists and virologists alike". What you're telling me is that there's no problem after all as long as "rabies develops all the same"?

No, I'm saying I don't know what "new patterns of rabies infection" they're referring to without the paper, so I really can't comment on that statement.

You say,

It makes the viral rabies/encephalitis/CNS hypothesis impossible to argue with in each case.

How so? Again, just because a bite wasn't documented doesn't mean the virus isn't. What would you do for someone where the rabies virus is confirmed (and a number of tests that can do so are listed here), but the patient doesn't remember a bite? Or perhaps, like in some cases, they or a family member will say, "yeah, there was a bat that flew in the house and was acting strangely, but that was 2 years ago"? Wouldn't you consider that as a possible exposure?

Beyond that I never cease to be amazed that it's considered dandy science to defend every new failure with the previous, or explain one unknown with the next.

I don't see them as failures--I see them as mysteries and even better, opportunities. That's how science progresses. If we knew everything, how boring would that be?

I admit, I am not endowed with an imagination fertile enough to deny hiv, rabies, tuberculosis etc...

Wit, literacy, call it what you like. As Truthiness once said: I'm just a bimbo.

So you can get rabies when a dog licks you if you have a cut on your skin so it doesn't have to be a bite more like saliva blood or nerve contact. What the hecks MECTruthie saying any way??s

No wait I just got it what MEC says!!
HIV isn't real bc it only infects primates theres not a good animal model.
Rabies isn't real bc it infects too many animals no virus could do that!!
MEC you are the smartest dude.

Tara,

What would you do for someone where the rabies virus is confirmed (and a number of tests that can do so are listed here), but the patient doesn't remember a bite? Or perhaps, like in some cases, they or a family member will say, "yeah, there was a bat that flew in the house and was acting strangely, but that was 2 years ago"? Wouldn't you consider that as a possible exposure?.

Tara, if I were invested in the viral, and only viral, rabies hypothesis, I would consider anything a possible exposure. Otherwise I would start asking fundamental questions, both with regards to the virology and the epidemiology of rabies.

To determine the incubation period of Rabies virus simply on background of last possible exposure just ain't what virology or molecular biology should be doing.

I also see all these conundrums and unknowns as exciting opportunities. Opportunites to re-examine my assumptions and my certainties. I do not possess the kind of rosy complacency that merely sees every fiasco as an intrinsic part of the scientific progress.

A fifty times repeated failure to produce a vaccine agains "AIDS" is not an opportunity, not an occasion to shower fumbling dogmatic morons with rewards; it remains just that, a digraceful f-ing failure.

Like Duesberg, MEC attempts to build his case on a few reported outliers. Or, rather, on his impression that there exist one or two anecdotes of human rabies cases with multiple-year incubation periods. And his refusal to examine the medical literature.

Like Duesberg, rosily complacent in his denialist dogma, MEC ignores the facts:

Almost all reported human rabies cases follow rabid dog bites.

The incubation period for rabies is several weeks to three months for almost all human victims.

The more bites from a rabid animal, the more severe the bite(s), and the closer to the head, the shorter the incubation period.

When samples from presumed rabies victims are available and are tested, they almost always confirm the diagnosis.

Post-exposure vaccines administered to bite victims help to fight the rabies virus, not environmental pollution or negative thinking. In a given region, for example in Thailand, PEP doses and rabies deaths are inversely correlated.

Areas with few or no human rabies cases are areas with strict animal-control policies that achieve a near-neutralization of the major rabies vector, stray dogs, and impose limits on pets.

A jackal or a bat can also transmit rabies. A small child may be too young to report what bit her. It may take the virus six months to travel from the legs to the brain in a few patients. This doesn't change that most of the 50-100,000 worldwide deaths from rabies involve the same vector, occur after the same approximate incubation period, and are depressingly, disgustingly, disgracefully preventable. Somehow, I doubt MEC's fumbling virus denial will change the situation. Tara, in calling our attention to the problem, is part of the solution. Who is the failure here?

Why is the dog vaccine so much simpler and more effective than the human vaccine?

Also, when I got my rabies shot prior to fieldwork in South America, they said that additional shot would only be given if I had an exposure risk. Why is that?