The long, sordid antivaccine history of Donald Trump

Photograph needs a caption. Something about prostate screening.

Those tropes remind me people telling 'ya know i've nothing against stranger, but they better stay in their country - no i'm not racist i know a black guy. -

Trump is really, really scary, not just because of his views of vaccines. He seems really dangerous in other ways. Can you imagine what would happen to diplomacy if he goes around insulting people like Putin?

I am starting to think that President Trump is not such an outlandish possibility, and I am wondering where I might hide in embarrassment in that event.

It doesn’t hurt anybody other than probably the pharmaceutical companies, because they probably make more money putting it into one shot. Maybe it hurts the doctors. I don’t know. But I can say this. Everybody would get the vaccines. They just, they wouldn’t be pumping these massive amounts of liquid into a child.

Trump seems to think that all vaccines come as single-antigen and they are just added together to make combination vaccines. The joke is on him since his child undoubtedly received combination vaccines.

I wonder: Why isn’t there a huge groundswell in the autism advocacy community for Donald Trump? We seemed to like him better when he was not in a position to do anything. Here we have the first leading major party candidate to say the studies are fudged, the shots are too many too soon, and the result is autism.

Dan has been in that echo chamber for so long he has no self-awareness left. AoA isn't representative of the autism community and perhaps, just perhaps the rest of his like-minded comrades are more turned off by Trump's bigotry, misogyny and complete incompetence as a POTUS candidate than they are turned on by his vaccine causation nonsense.

I am starting to think that President Trump is not such an outlandish possibility

OK, so one time I found myself in a bay in the ED, and the nurse asked whether I knew what the date was. I answered correctly but also confessed that I would have been off by a day had I not overheard the correct answer from the bay to my left.

The nurse kind of chuckled, but she said that it would have been OK either way.

What is the true way? This is September 15, 2015.

Where do you start with this guy?

What does the volume of fluid have to do with anything? If his hypothetical baby required a drip would he stop the doctor due to the, ya know, monster amount of saline being, ya know, pumped into that little body? Come on USA you good guys have to stop this bullying ignorant oaf.

My main gripe with him however is that he has taken over the hotel where my sister got married. It's now called Trump Turnberry Hotel. Just vulgar.

The lack of logic defies belief. Why would it profit pharmaceutical companies to put "all" vaccines into one shot? Particularly if this made it more risky? It may save doctors time which would be a good thing but it certainly couldn't serve the profit motive that anti-vaccine idiots like him seem to think is the only motivation behind vaccination strategies.

I dread to think of the amount of stupid that would be unleashed if this man becomes President but then if Australia have got rid of Abbott finally then maybe there is currently a deficit and nature does abhor a vacuum. I just hope the anti vaccination vote is actually so tiny despite its inflated online presence that it has no significant effect on the overall outcome.

There are some things that man is not meant to splice!

What does the volume of fluid have to do with anything?

You are perhaps unfamiliar with the "weight-adjusted dose" "challenge" that enjoys some popularity among the AoA, etc., set. Maybe he got mixed up.

this massive shot of fluid

Every time I saw him quoted talking about massive shots, I kept wondering if Trump has actually seen a real vaccine syringe.

I think you are being to charitable to Andrew Wakefield when you say ... like Andrew Wakefield, he believes that the MMR is associated with autism... . Well, given cognitive dissonance, perhaps Wakefield now does believe this but I think originally he believed in his bank account.

I think the rest of the world is watching Trump, and the rest of the Republican contenders, with bewildered amusement tinged with the slight fear that one of those bozos might get elected.

On the other hand, a number of our fence post manufacturers are gearing up and setting up US subsidiaries in case The Donald does get elected.

he was challenged on this by Gretchen Carlson, who noted that “the studies have said that there is no link” and that there hadn’t been any mercury in vaccines for years

Keep in mind that Gretchen Carlson's job is to act like a bimbo, and she has kept her job for this long because she is very good at it. (Ditto her Fox News teammate Megyn Kelly.) Carlson chose this of all issues to step out of character and speak truth to a billionaire. Trump, being Trump, didn't take the hint.

At this point I think the Republican nomination for President is Trump's to lose. The Iowa caucus and New Hampshire primary don't happen until early February, and it's still possible that Trump will self-destruct his candidacy, but I don't see any of his Republican opponents taking him down. He's toxic for a number of reasons--not only this issue but things like immigration--but this is actually a strength for him in the Republican primaries. He's saying what potential Republican voters want to hear, and he isn't hiding it in code phrases.

At this point I think the Republican nomination for President is Trump’s to lose.

I wish that I had something more than a Universal M-7000 decoder (with hidden WEFAX, mind you) with which to stake a bet.

As of now. Odds new republican leader

Jeb Bush 15/8
Donald Trump 7/2
Marco Rubio 6/1
10/1 bar

So not beyond the boundS of possibility!!!

Orac, your post inspired me: Donald Trump's "Massive" Vaccines.

As of now. Odds new republican leader

Are these based on the parimutuel book model?

I am starting to think that President Trump is not such an outlandish possibility.

He's got more chance than none, which is alarming. I personally find it comforting that Nate Silver says he won't get the nomination, if that helps. It's not a guarantee. And I don't entirely agree with his reasoning. But he's usually right about such things. Much more so than I am.

Also, I think Orac may have just kicked off the beginning of the end. That he's anti-vax has much better potential as material for the other side's oppo internet elves to work with than anything else I've seen so far.

Oh, I don't know. It's not as though the other side's opposition research people aren't aware of Trumps antivax proclivities.

Unfortunately, one of Trump's most outspoken critics is - alas!- another anti-vaxxer: Bill Maher, who was sued because he suggested that the mogul's father was an orangutan and who has now parodied his fabled anti-Mexican immigrant stance with an anti-Australian immigrant rant ( see the Daily Kos/ 9/12 for a video clip and script) who take jobs in the movie and recreation business in LA whilst they steal your SO.

"Are these based on the parimutuel book model?"

No fixed odds.

I just recalled what Washington journalist/ television commentator, Eugene Robinson, has said in the past about Republican presidential candidates from NY and NJ ( he was speaking, of course, about Mssrs Giuliani and Christie)- that ( my paraphrase) their style doesn't play very well in the south, the midwest and mountain west and that partisans in those places may not be exactly thrilled with their region of the country and what it represents. ( Mr Robinson is black and I believe that he may hint at other areas' dislike of urban reality and cities' more liberal acceptance of multi-culturalism)

Trump exemplifies the brashness associated with NY, as well as its tendency to overflow with money and his speech is even more a stereotype of New Yorkese- INMNSHO- than either of the aforementioned candidates.

Still, what gives? It seems that he gathers large crowds in conservative areas that have eluded other quasi-liberal republican NY area crea... gentlemen like those whom I've mentioned.

Maybe it was the television show which reached across regional barriers and levels of education to the abysmal mucky depths not unlike the Dead Marshes of Unreason which prevail at sites like AoA.

Forget The Donald,it's time to #BernBabyBern.

Oh, I don’t know. It’s not as though the other side’s opposition research people aren’t aware of Trumps antivax proclivities.

That's becomingly modest of you. But it's much more valuable to them now that you've written about it.

...

Seriously. Maybe it's wishful thinking. But I think that if this gets picked up, it will turn most people who hear of it off in a way that the rest of his insane, ugly visionary pronouncements don't. Nobody (who's not anti-vax) wants to live in that brave new world. And since that's what he's selling,that'll plant a seed that's a real problem for the brand.

I'd definitely be grateful to you, if so. Apologies in advance for going Godwin. But every time I look at him, I think about making a line of T-shirts that say: "Trump. It's only funny until someone invades Poland."

@ ann:

Altho' I don't know enough about the Argentinian leader to know whether it's appropriate- a commenter compared Trump to Peron-
-( paraphrased) "Everything is totally corrupt and awful and I alone can fix it"
I wonder how that would sound in LOL speech?

Ann@23
Donald Trump is no Hitler.Il Duce and The Donald are both all about propaganda and The Cult of Personality

@ann, @Denice: Comparisons to Mussolini are not unwarranted. Mussolini liked to claim that he made the trains run on time, although that appears not to be true. Trump is the supposedly savvy businessman with at least four corporate bankruptcies in his past. One of those bankruptcies was of a casino bearing his name--how bad a business manager do you have to be to go broke in a business where your customers are effectively giving you free money?

There is good reason to think that Trump will get at least 27 percent of the vote. The question is, how far above that does he go? Maybe some will be turned off by his anti-vax stance, but I suspect they aren't Trump's core constituency. On the contrary, crank magnetism implies that people who buy what Trump is selling on immigration are disproportionately likely to buy his anti-vax schtick.

@Denice --

He is kind of Peronist in some ways, although that's maybe too flattering. Also, not having an army or militias makes a difference. Happily.

I was really just joking. Or half-joking, at least. I mean, he's a charismatic irredentist xenophobe with a strong populist appeal. That's plenty bad enough.

@Roger Kulp --

I actually agree. It just makes a better T-shirt the other way.

I looked over a few odds makers' sites and- believe it or not- one of the better ones gives him not-so-very-different odds of attaining the nomination as frontrunner ( there, at teast) Bush. That's rather upsetting. ( see oddsmaker, betvega, P----Power).

@ Eric Lund:

Perhaps Mr Robinson's intra-national regional bias that I mentioned above will keep the percentage around where it is.

Skills for running one kind of business don't transfer well for managing a different type of company. Why does anyone think they'll transfer well to government work? Trump's used to working with people he can fire at will, how would he handle Congress and the courts?

It looks like most of the Republican presidential candidates are pro-vaccine (especially Marco Rubio, Bobby Jindal and Jeb Bush), but there are multiple candidates with varying degrees of waffle (including Ben Carson).

So the frontrunners (Trump and Carson) have bad and dubious credentials respectively on this issue, and I really, really doubt most of the others will bash them on it.

A Republican platform in favor of sound science just doesn't seem like a solid bet.

Link regarding GOP candidates and vaccination:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/02/2016-candidates-child-vaccinat…

There is good reason to think that Trump will get at least 27 percent of the vote.

If he gets the nomination, sure. (Maybe I misunderstood. But that's what they're talking about there, as I read it.) the thing is that's a big -- or at least a non-trivial -- "if." The party really doesn't like him.

On the contrary, crank magnetism implies that people who buy what Trump is selling on immigration are disproportionately likely to buy his anti-vax schtick.

But that's way fewer than 27%. In order to win, he has to be acceptable to non-buyers who are willing to overlook what they don't buy, and not just cranks. That's not an insurmountable obstacle with the immigration stuff, because (unfortunately) people find it relatively easy to overlook other people's problems. But that doesn't apply to the anti-vaxitude.

I'm not saying it's a dealbreaker, in conventional terms. But I think it will turn people off on a personal level to hear about it. It has...I'm not really sure what to call it. It kind of has the feel-bad factor. It will make many people feel bad, at least transiently. And there are a lot of voters to whom that's more important to than agreement/disagreement, human nature being what it is.

But what do I know? As I said, it could all be wishful thinking on my part.

It doesn’t hurt anybody other than probably the pharmaceutical companies, because they probably make more money putting it into one shot.

And the patients who need more doctor's visits which cost more money and the insurers who foot most of the bill. And surprise: the pharmaceutical companies. You'd have to be an idiot to think they would charge more for three seperate shots than one MMR.

The Trump campaign was funny at first but it is starting to worry me. Here's a question: will Trump's AV beliefs turn opinion against him or will it cause people to question vaccines? Certainly some of both but I winder what the majority will be.

Orac, your post inspired me: Donald Trump’s “Massive” Vaccines.

And your post inspired me to add another photo to my post near the end. :-)

@Orac

Glad to have returned the favor! I'll admit, your pic has a much nicer punch to it than mine.

# 15 Todd W.
Perhaps Trump owns horses. Those syringes are huge. We used them for water fights in residence.

I'm not a psychiatrist, but I'm certain that TRump is a textbook case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder
Of course he knows more about vaccines than all those dumb scientists and doctors. He's The Donald!!!
I ccan't comprehend how anyone with a brain could could consider him for President, however my fellow Canadians in Toronto elected Rob Ford for Mayor.
Sometimes I despair.

Seriously. Maybe it’s wishful thinking. But I think that if this gets picked up, it will turn most people who hear of it off in a way that the rest of his insane, ugly visionary pronouncements don’t. Nobody (who’s not anti-vax) wants to live in that brave new world. And since that’s what he’s selling,that’ll plant a seed that’s a real problem for the brand.

I don't know if this is an issue that the dems can really use in their favour or at least have to be very careful about it. This 'health freedom' nonsense is arguably the most successful anti-vaxx campaign yet; it resonates with pro-vaxxers who are suspicious/angry with 'big government'. Trump has given himself a loop-hole by vaccinating, his support comes from white/lower SES (from what I've read) and there is a bipartisan rejection of establishment politicians. The argument, if there ever is any should be framed carefully so as not to sound as though there will be more government interference in peoples' daily lives.

@jkrideau

I doubt he's seen horse syringes, either. In my meme, I was originally going to go with a side-by-side of a horse syringe and a vaccine syringe, but the mad scientist look seemed more fitting.

He's staked out a rather odd position...apparently he is not anti-vax, he's just anti-the-recommended-time-schedule. He's fixated on the idea that this schedule results in "massive doses" which are somehow more dangerous than smaller doses.

Don't get me wrong, it's obviously a net-negative that he is spreading unwarranted misinformation and fear about the recommended schedule. On the other hand, is he likely to appeal to the anti-vax nutters out there? For most of them, vaccines are evil and dangerous regardless of when and how much.

His position would seem to appeal to no one. Not the anti-vaxxers who would be appalled that he gives vaccines to his own kids albeit at a reduced schedule, and not the science-minded who find his ignorance of the scientific process galling.

Is there a cohort for which the "vax are okay but it's too much too soon" POV is popular?

@jrkrideau #11:

I think the rest of the world is watching Trump, and the rest of the Republican contenders, with bewildered amusement tinged with the slight fear that one of those bozos might get elected.

Yup. At the moment the show is more amusing than anything, but with the advent of certain events and the inevitable responses, the amusement is giving way to repugnance.

@Science Mom

The weird part is that for all of Trump's anti-establishment rhetoric, he also espouses a lot of dictatorial notions more in line with monarchy or despotism.

Is there a cohort for which the “vax are okay but it’s too much too soon” POV is popular?

Of course there is. There are several levels of antivax. Pure antivaxers (against all vaccines) are rare. Most fall somewhere in the "too many too soon" camp or a camp that only thinks a few of the current schedule are necessary and/or advisable. In fact, that seems to be the largest cohort of antivaxers.

Just build a wall, you can solve this whole problem. Gotta make it huge, though. A HUGE WALL.

@MarkN

Just build a wall, you can solve this whole problem. Gotta make it huge, though. A HUGE WALL.

Can we build it around Trump?

MarkN @46 -- the correct spelling is YOOOOGE.

Just build a wall, you can solve this whole problem. Gotta make it huge, though. A HUGE WALL.

Don't forget the BEAUTIFUL door.

@MarkN: Don't forget, the wall also has to be classy.

@Todd W. #44

I don't find it that strange. For some reason I've noticed that a fair number of the people wanting to ensure no one can have the power/control over them do not seem to want other people to be free to do as they please.

Not sure if it is one of those two sides of the same, "has control issues," coin or not or somehow their personal sense of freedom is somehow doesn't feel like freedom unless everyone is doing as they do, or more often doing as they say but don't do.

Meanwhile, the Republican candidate who actually has a previous career in the pediatric neurological field is so strongly pro-vaccine that he had to reassure his Tea Party voters that he isn't in favor of forcing them against people's wills.

Just build a wall, you can solve this whole problem. Gotta make it huge, though. A HUGE WALL.

I think I remember some walls in Europe, though one was called a curtain, it still was some kind of wall.
Still some people succeded in passing it.

@ Dangerous Bacon

Ben Carson is supposedly polling a somewhat distant second to Trump.Isn't it interesting the antis really haven't gone after Carson because of his company Vaccinogen?

Does Trump also believe our reptilian overlords are illegal aliens ?

Lord Draconis Zenica will not be pleased.

A uuuuge wall of a different kind.

@KayMarie #51: Whenever someone talks about freedom, the important thing to ask is "whose freedom?" and "freedom to do what? For many of them, its "my freedom" to do "whatever I want, whenever I want, to whoever I want."

They get pumped up with this huge pile of liquid, with many, many different vaccines, and their child turns out to be autistic after it.

Color me shocked - SHOCKED, I tell you! - that Trump apparently does not understand the basic properties of liquids. Or the English language, whatever.

Slightly pedantic point, but it is amusing that, grammatically speaking, The Donald evidently believes that it is the parents getting pumped up with huge piles of liquid that renders their children autistic.

I don’t know if this is an issue that the dems can really use in their favour or at least have to be very careful about it. This ‘health freedom’ nonsense is arguably the most successful anti-vaxx campaign yet; it resonates with pro-vaxxers who are suspicious/angry with ‘big government’. Trump has given himself a loop-hole by vaccinating, his support comes from white/lower SES (from what I’ve read) and there is a bipartisan rejection of establishment politicians. The argument, if there ever is any should be framed carefully so as not to sound as though there will be more government interference in peoples’ daily lives.

Oh, I agree. I don't think the candidates themselves should go near it unless they're asked. I think it's good fodder for internet oppo elves.

Altho' DT has many odd habits of speech and of delivery, I think that one really stands out from the crowd:
if he gets called on anything, e.g. speaking disparagingly about women, Mexicans, whatever, he rapidly responds with

"I LOVE...." women, Mexicans or whatever.

For some reason, I find this hilarious.

Ben Carson is supposedly polling a somewhat distant second to Trump.Isn’t it interesting the antis really haven’t gone after Carson because of his company Vaccinogen?

Heh, I had no idea he was involved with that. Well there's always the out of, "it's a therapeutic vaccine".

“I LOVE….” women, Mexicans or whatever.

But only if they're hawt and STFU.

@Science Mom

And don't forget he's only joking. If they're offended, then it's just because they have no sense of humor.

a fair number of the people wanting to ensure no one can have the power/control over them do not seem to want other people to be free to do as they please

This is the basic contradiction of libertarianism as practiced in the United States. As well as the people howling about "religious freedom", which they have redefined as "freedom to assume that everybody else subscribes to my religious beliefs."

I find libertarianism to be like communism. Both are superficially attractive political theories, the successful implementation of which depend on several counterfactual assumptions about human nature.

As for the "religious freedom" nuts, they need to be reminded, often, that freedom of religion is not possible without freedom from religion. The ones who insist that government should be run according to religious principles, I would encourage to move to Saudi Arabia or Iran, countries which actually are governed according to religious principles. What, those aren't your religious principles? My point exactly.

And don’t forget he’s only joking. If they’re offended, then it’s just because they have no sense of humor.

I know right? A bunch of humourless bints are we.

I’m not a psychiatrist, but I’m certain that TRump is a textbook case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

Perhaps more accurate to say that the persona he projects is that of narcissism... because that's what his supporters want.
They can't get away with the dreams of narcissistic omnipotence themselves -- they don't have his freedom to go around spouting grandiose self-aggrandising nonsense that goes unquestioned -- but at least they can lick the boots of someone who is living the dream.

He does not have a prayer in the Deep South. Where I am, it is true that the anti-vaxx stupid will be well blended with his other forms of stupid to make an appetizing mix for those not inclined toward any form of critical thinking. That is of course true anywhere, but loud-mouthed New Yorkers are still detested in many areas here and will never have traction--ever. This is also what Hillary Clinton in her supreme wisdom is overlooking and why she will flame out here in spite of her time in Arkansas.

Never underestimate the size of the educational bell curve in rural areas of the US. There are people here who are confused by the whole idea of vaccination and revert to their libertarian programming rather than try to confuse themselves by thinking about it.

My younger sister contracted ITP following a battery of immunizations prior to moving overseas. The fact is nobody actually knows what causes ITP and it is irresponsible to suggest that there are never negative side-effects to immunizations. To suggest otherwise destroys one's credibility. I understand that immunizations are life-saving and very, very safe but to suggest they are completely 100% risk free is false.

A lot of people were asking the question

Jenny McCarthy, writing in the Chicago Sun-Times on April 12, 2014:

I am not “anti-vaccine.” This is not a change in my stance nor is it a new position that I have recently adopted. For years, I have repeatedly stated that I am, in fact, “pro-vaccine” and for years I have been wrongly branded as “anti-vaccine.”

Jenny McCarthy to CNN on Sept. 26, 2007:

I mean moms and pregnant women are coming up to me on the street going, I don’t know what to do. I don’t know what to do. And I don’t know what to tell them, because I am surely not going to tell anyone to vaccinate. But if I had another child, there’s no way in hell.

Libertarians remind me of the callow teenager in Frank Zappa's Teenage Wind:

Free is when you don't have to pay for nothin' or do nothin'!
I want to be free! Free as the wind!

The fact is nobody actually knows what causes ITP

Then I can't see its relevance.

We people claim we given too may too soon and want to do one at a time I like to ask what they consider one at a time. Is PCV13 one vaccine or 13? Is IPV one vaccine or four?
This question enlightens them, I hope, that they do not know what they are talking about.

"WHEN" people say... Not "we" people

Reporter: Mr. Trump, Mr. Trump, which specific diseases do you want to come back by not vaccinating our children?

The Donald: why the greatest, the classiest, the biggest, the best disease! Smallpox!

*shocked gasp, followed by chaos as reporters flee the room*

The Donald: What? Can't you take a joke?

Mike Danger,

My younger sister contracted ITP following a battery of immunizations prior to moving overseas. The fact is nobody actually knows what causes ITP and it is irresponsible to suggest that there are never negative side-effects to immunizations.

We do know one thing that commonly causes ITP: measles, and less commonly rubella and chicken pox. We also know that MMR causes ITP in fewer than one in 25,000 cases.

It's very unfortunate when someone has an adverse reaction to a vaccine, as your sister may or may not have done - ITP is also associated with a number of genetic mutations so it is by no meas certain it was a vaccine. It seems to me that high MMR and other vaccine coverage greatly reduces the incidence of ITP, which is surely a good thing.

It should come as no surprise that Mike Adams of NaturalNews is a Trump fan, feeling that his election would "help prevent America from descending into full retard status", and of course praising his antivax views.

For those eager to read about Trump without filtration by the lamestream media, Mike has come to the rescue. "By the way, I recently launched Trump(dot)news, the only independent media news aggregation site in the world that focuses entirely on Donald Trump."

Should be great stuff.

*apparently Mike is pleased by the Bernie Sanders surge too, at least until Bernie swoops down and takes his guns.

Hey Peabrains.

Trump is not running for Surgeon General or Dictator. He's running for President. That means his job is to get the things Congress wants, done. Trump is good at getting things done.

Not entirely OT as it concerns The Donald:

A while back I wrote about how DT supposedly got his nickname- that it was an ESL/EFL error by his then wife, Ivana ( her native language is short on articles it seems)

Well, I found the reference ( actually, a reference to the reference in Vanity Fair) seems I read an article long ago by Jonathan Van Meter where it was narrated as such by Ivana herself.

A few recent articles ( such as "Why does everyone call Donald Trump 'The Donald?'" washingtonpost.com) recount the tale as well. I am familiar with Van Meter who now writes for Vogue.

Just curious why there is no discussion with regards to the CDC scientist William Thompson who initially authored or co-authored the report saying there was no connection with autism and vaccines in 2004 and now is looking for whistle blower protection and has turned over 100,000 documents that indicated the study was fraudulent.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/os-bill-posey-vaccines-aut…

http://www.topsecretwriters.com/2015/09/media-ignores-cdc-whistleblower…

All I can say is that it is either one heck of a coincidence or there is something to this. The oldest of my three children had a bad reaction to the MMR vaccine and was never quite the same and later clinically diagnosed as being in the autism spectrum.

Many are quick to label Trump on this topic, but I really do not think the public is truly informed. While I understand the benefits of vaccines, i think a lot of people are fooling themselves if they do not believe there is also an inherit risk associated with this. It only makes sense, there really cannot be any one solution that fits all. Wake up and do a little critical analysis. I have researched it fairly extensively and compared the stories with others because I have a horse in this race. Trump has his issues, but I really do not think he is off the mark on the vaccines, it does not work for everyone, maybe most, but what is the acceptable risk? Think about it before you spout off and make judgments. You really think the US government is going to readily acknowledge this since it is their mandate. If they could hold private industry responsible it would be a massive class action suit, but it is not. They just feed you the propaganda they want you to believe.

@Denice:

Ah-ha! So you are vindicated. ;-)

"the only independent media news aggregation site in the world that focuses entirely on Donald Trump.”

A totally independent puke-funnel! Yay!

@ JP:

I would never forget weird crap like that!

Perhaps more accurate to say that the persona he projects is that of narcissism… because that’s what his supporters want.

Chance being a fine thing, I actually had occasion to speak with him once, twenty years ago or so. And fwiw, he doesn't just project that persona for his supporters.

It was really pretty socially challenging, tbh.

Also, though I might not be remembering this completely accurately, he and Ivana used to get a lot of local press coverage back in the '80s. And at least as far as I can recall, he was very much the same kind of insatiably attention-seeking, boastful freak then as he is now. He was continually announcing grand schemes that went nowhere or didn't work out and so on. And just for the sake of announcing them, seemingly. Would show up for the opening of an envelope. That sort of thing. It wasn't for the sake of politics. And I'm pretty sure he wasn't even a billionaire yet.

I think it might be who he really is, in short.

@ Dangerous Bacon

Mikey-poo would most likely wet his pants ( and not in a good way) if he knew that Sanders advocates civil rights, women's rights, abortion rights, immigrants' rights, LGBTQ rights and workers' rights! He believes that the rich should be taxed progressively! He's a socialist! The dude is a native New Yawker- born in the People's Republic of Crooklyn yet- and Jewish.

Well, I found the reference ( actually, a reference to the reference in Vanity Fair) seems I read an article long ago by Jonathan Van Meter where it was narrated as such by Ivana herself.

Yes. He did a legendary takedown of her for Spy, which used to routinely refer to Trump as "a short-fingered vulgarian." It was unforgettable. With the possible exception of their references to "bosomy dirty-book writer, Shirley Lord," probably their most unforgettable epithet.

It was a cover story. "Ivanarama," IIRC.

ann said:
"he was very much the same kind of insatiably attention-seeking, boastful freak then as he is now. He was continuously announcing grand schemes that went nowhere or didn't work out and so on"
No wonder Mike likes him.

-btw- I should note that our most esteemed and gracious host has returned from his holiday just when those wretched, slimey swamps overbrimming with buzzing chaos disguised as information ( AoA, PRN, NN etc) are hatching new plots, endeavors and papers for our sceptical pleasure.

-Mike disses Folta and liberals, loves DT and Food Babe
-Gary whistleblowers Seneff & Co against Monsanto ( FOIA paper)/ joins with Celente, Nader et al in a peace movement
-AoA continues searching for relevance/ Dan is back!
- and Jake endures.

Woo hoo. Indeed.

And fwiw, he doesn’t just project that persona for his supporters.
I think it might be who he really is, in short.

"Genuinely narcissistic" is certainly a more parsimonious explanation than "feigned for effect."

It is that narcissism, anyway, which seems to provide the appeal to his supporters (notably Mike Adams). They've been told over the decades that this is the personality of winners..

So you have a sector of voters who feel cheated and betrayed by "establishment politicians" who never give them what they want, and instead they are lining up behind the guy who's made a career from walking away from bankruptcies and leaving his creditors in the lurch -- the guy who boasts in his book about reneging on deals -- because they think he's the one they can trust.

# 39 TBruce

... my fellow Canadians in Toronto elected Rob Ford for Mayor

Wait just a minute here; are we sure Torontonians are true Canadians? I've always leaned towards the reptilian aliens theory myself, probably Her Majesty's colonial cousins.

Still I don't suppose there is anything in the Citizenship Act excluding reptilian aliens as long as they were legitimate immigrants so perhaps....

So you have a sector of voters who feel cheated and betrayed by “establishment politicians” who never give them what they want, and instead they are lining up behind the guy who’s made a career from walking away from bankruptcies and leaving his creditors in the lurch — the guy who boasts in his book about reneging on deals — because they think he’s the one they can trust.

Hm. Well, he could be borderline, now that you mention it. But those Cluster B personality disorders all look alike from a distance.

Of course, he could also just be a self-involved blowhard. Or even a perfectly swell fellow to those who really know him, although that seems unlikely.

He's a potentially scary and unwelcome political phenomenon, though.

#43 Rich Woods

Trump : “My followers are very passionate.”

Has he just declared open season on Latinos? That's certainly what it sound like.

He certainly seems to be appealing to the lower level pond scum. Do they vote in a primary or just carry metal poles and harass the voters?

So you have a sector of voters who feel cheated and betrayed by “establishment politicians” who never give them what they want, and instead they are lining up behind the guy who’s made a career from walking away from bankruptcies and leaving his creditors in the lurch — the guy who boasts in his book about reneging on deals — because they think he’s the one they can trust.

Well duh, he's totally up-front about screwing you over and hey, it's only those dirtbag financial institutions. He's a man for the people dude. And he would make the White House way more classy than those "other people".

"Wake up and do a little critical analysis. I have researched it fairly extensively and compared the stories with others because I have a horse in this race."

Total noob. They don't know who they're talking to. Most of us on this comment thread -- the non-anti-vax ones -- have done more than a little critical analysis. Some of us have even stood in front of people who know better and defended our theories about these things. And others have seen children die of vaccine-preventable disease, never quite being the same after that.

Wake up and do a little critical analysis. I have researched it fairly extensively... They just feed you the propaganda

Needs more "SHEEPLE".

I see that Scott swallows the "100,000 documents" invention, just to prove that he is an independent do-you-own-researcher.

Ren: "Some of us have even stood in front of people who know better and defended our theories about these things."

Oh, yes. Who can forget an oral examination? Even though I did end up dropping out of grad school (mostly due to lack of money/time), it did prove very helpful when it came to defending my structural analyses in front of skeptical customers during a critical design review.

Though recently I had very little success in communicating to Dr. Deisher my concerns about her work. She was not big on me presenting a paper that said the opposite of what she claimed.

herr doktor bimler @ 1 takes the cake, the frosting, the sprinkles, and the naughty joke written on top in blue.

How 'bout "Would you get a prostate exam from this man?"

---

Someone with solid standing in the science-based medical world needs to get in touch with the Sanders and Clinton campaigns, and warn them about this, lest some ill-informed person on their staff try to "pick up some voters from Trump" by jumping on the anti-vax bandwagon.

There _is no_ picking up those voters. Leave them in their swamp, and avoid catching something from them into the bargain.

WHOMEVER WROTE THIS ARTICLE IN FAVOR OF VACCINES, HAS LIKELY BEEN PAID BY PIG PHARMA TO ACT LIKE A JACK-ASS AND DO SO. HE IS A JERK, BIG TIME. EVIDENCE IS PROFOUND THAT VACCINES WITH MERCURY AND ALUMINUM ARE EXTREMELY DANGEROUS. MERCURY IS THE SECOND MOST TOXIC ELEMENT IN THE WORLD, SECOND ONLY TO PLUTONIUM. INJECTING THAT INTO A 20-30 POUND INFANT IS HORRENDOUS, AND IN A MINIMALLY EFFICIENT IMMUNE SYSTEM, CAN BE DEVASTATING AND SOME DAY WILL BE EXPOSED IN FULL.-AND THEN BIG PHARMA WILL PAY IMMENSELY..... HEALTHY-AGAIN.COM

Ren@94
Reminds me of these images:
http://starecat.com/content/wp-content/uploads/vaccine-research-laborat…
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B8XBu5HCEAEPZ7H.jpg

Of course as 'shill' relying on a 'broken peer review system' for evidence your critical analysis is really just glorified advertisement.

And others have seen children die of vaccine-preventable disease, never quite being the same after that.

Another group that I think gets forgotten about but faces some of the most serious consequences from declining herd immunity is children with legitimate medical exemptions and their parents. In my (admittedly not representative) experience they realize the importance of immunization more than anyone else. AVers would be surprised at how bad they want to not have that exemption. So often the response I get when I ask about vaccinations is something like "she hasn't had x, y, and z but the doctor said she might be clear for them in (some amount of time) so we're hoping to get them then."

Interestingly, William B. Risley, chiropractor (or CHIROPRACTOR as it were) actually does stand to profit from "advertising" (if you can call it that). To be fair, he needs the money for a new keyboard, the capslock is broken on his. It would help if he knew how to make links clickable but I'm not complaining. He's clearly a disseminator of dangerous pseudoscience, not just antivaccine but also quackery for every condition (including ones where quackery is very dangerous like asthma and cancer).

@william

Thanks for the laughs at your nonsense. I'm sure typing in all-caps makes your post something to be taken "seriously".

@William #99

As a real physician licensed to practice medicine in AZ (and not a chiroquackter like you), it saddens me you have chosen to display how absolutely uneducated and unintelligent you truly are.

William B. Risley, chiropractor (or CHIROPRACTOR as it were) [...] clearly a disseminator of dangerous pseudoscience, not just antivaccine but also quackery for every condition (including ones where quackery is very dangerous like asthma and cancer)

And Alzheimers. Which is caused by heavy-metal poisoning with aluminium! And curable with chelation. We know this thanks to Cayce's clairvoyant visions.

William B. Risley seems to also have an issue with anatomy. From one if his pages:

You may have a problem in your intestines - poison accumulation, or constipation, and that may be causing your migraine.

(by the way the rest of the page is a hoot!)

Oh my, a new chew toy! (99) If he's making unfounded medical claims on his website, someone with M.D. after their name needs to report him to his state licensing board, stat.

---

Michael Finfer, MD @ 3: I've been thinking the same thing: Trump on the phone with Putin during an international crisis, uh-oh. As for where to hide if he gets in, anywhere with 4' of earth over your head will protect you from nuclear weapons fallout. Damn, I wish that was funny.

For his economic populism, Trump is attracting much ire from the almost-appropriately-named "Club for Growth," which IMHO was a typo and should read "Club for Growths." We can be thankful neither of them have a nuclear button right now, or they'd be using it on each other. This may be the beginning of a serous implosion on that side of the aisle, and it's to be heartily encouraged.

In particular, since former brilliant neurosurgeon and current "skeptic" of both climate change and evolution, Ben Carson, is #2 in the Republican polling, we should be stirring up the nasties between Trump supporters and Carson supporters. Visiting online forums and going hyper-partisan for either of them _and against the other_, may be helpful or at least deserves to be tried.

As all scientists have known for quite some time, the road to the Nobel is always paved in gold when publishing in all-caps.

GO PIG PHARMA, GO!!

constipation, and that may be causing your migraine.

I am reliably informed that the microbial contents of the large intestine comprise our "third brain" so this ALL MAKES SENSE.

NOOOOO!!! Chris and HDB..don't you realize that even mentioning the gut will being in our "resident expert" on how the intestines lead to ALL problems?

http://www.naturalnews.com/SpecialReports/VaccinesFullStory/v1/VaccineR…

# 106 Grey Squirrel

Trump on the phone with Putin during an international crisis, uh-oh.

Admittedly not reassuring but Putin is a highly skilled and experienced politician. He probably would sell The Donald a pup before Trump knew it and the Russian navy would be using Newport News as a docking facility in no time. Of course the Kremlin would be known as the Trump Kremlin Towers but it would be cheap at the price.

Besides foreign leaders are used to weird American communications. I loved George W. Bush. He sent the Supreme Leader of Iran a bible as a gift and it is reported that one communication with the President of France was written in biblical apocalyptic terms that was so confusing for the secular French that they sent it to an expert in Switzerland for translation

Fergus: Trump doesn't own most of the properties with his name on them. The owners license the use of his name from him. He's simply a brand, a label, in everything he does.

Believe it or not, one of AoA's faithful, Dan Burns, attended a Trump rally in Texas and isn't at all pleased with the braggadocio-spouting billionaire. He feels that DT uses the vaccine issue and concerned parents to fulfill his own aims.

I love the comments section on the link IKZ posted. I particularly like this one:

I ALWAYS find the Onion to be hilarious, and they have not missed a beat of their comedic timing in this article. Well played satire, Onion.

I think most of the bloggers on AoA are Rand Paul supporters anyway. I have peeked at their Facebook profiles and seen pictures of Rand with Mark Blaxill, Jennifer Larson, John Gilmore, Kevin Barry, Eric Gladen, and Ginger Taylor.

Yes, the pseudoscientific branch of the movement is with Rand.

Unfortunately, being anti-vax is not really a Republican view point. According to polls, more Democrats think that the MMR shot is unsafe than Republicans. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/02/09/heres-how-many…
By being anti-vax, Trump is expanding his base and becoming more of a populist.

WILLIAM @99,

Sorry to hear that your keyboard is broken with the caps lock stuck on. Did you try turning it off and back on again?

Assuming you are not a Poe, how are you unaware of the fact that no vaccines in the routine childhood vaccination schedule contain thimerosal?

Just think if DT is the president he could name Oz as Surgeon general.

Anti-Vaxer logic cures death. Observed fact: every person who has every died took a breath just before they died. Therefore: taking a breath caused their death. So to keep on living one must stop breathing.

Bad logic leads to bad results.

William: hope you are better at twisting backs than at science!

BIG BILL ALL CAPS #99
It must have all been so very important.

@BCL1 #117

Best evidence I've seen, from Dan Kahan, is that vaccination, for now, unlike climate change and evolution, is ideologically neutral, for lack of a better term -- there are clusters of true believers across the ideological spectrum, from the Whole Foods, pastoral fantasy, anti-modernist types in wealthy coastal zones (often Democrats) to libertarians and various kinds of religious fundamentalists, who tend to be more right-wing. For whatever reason, the Canary Freedom groups, who are awfully loud, seem to skew Rand-ish. But they are emphatically not all of anti-vax-land. There is a non-trivial risk that the freedom rhetoric, however awful, will work and make anti-vax an issue for Tea Party types more generally, beyond the tiny minority already so obsessed. That would suck.

I agree that anti-vax rhetoric lets Trump grab a pitchfork and rally against the man, which is amazing when one thinks about who he is and where he comes from. It really is bravura performance art.

(1) Note that when Trump was asked whether he would change his mind if presented with facts from scientists, he did NOT answer the Q, but rattled off a another series of anecdotes and conjectures which basically just repeated what he had said before. Which shows his arrogance and stubbornness.No amount of scientific reality will affect his opinions or his policy. (2) To Eric Lund (post #26) Under Mussolini, train schedules were regarded as works of fiction.High-ranking gov't and military officials could commandeer a train for personal use with no advance notice, making predictable scheduling impossible.

If you think about it, California went through this same phenomenon when it elected Arnold Schwarzenegger. Populous vote swept him into office, he was terribly ineffectual and thankfully didn't do much harm, didn't even run for a second term. In fact, Arnold was irrelevant long before his term expired, with the state going about its business without him (with the threat of governor veto, of course). DT is alarming, but in the long run, elected or not, irrelevant.

It's like those people who don't believe in the karate five finger palm of death punch; but it's true, I've seen it; a man gets hit with the five finger palm of death, and sure enough 5 or 6 years later, he dies.

http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/03/13/cid.cis307

IKZ, thank you for that interesting link. But I'd like to point something out.
It may be true that receiving inactivated flu vaccine temporarily depresses immunity, but do you know what else does and even harder? Catching illnesses like the flu. Secondary infections are known to occur when a person is ill. That's one reason antibiotics are prescribed for flu, even though it's viral. They help to prevent secondary infections.
I've mentioned this before. I once had a very bad bout of flu. In bed for two days, sick for three whole weeks, lost 9 kg. I'd rather get the jab and risk maybe getting an infection than go through that again.

however my fellow Canadians in Toronto elected Rob Ford for Mayor. We get another chance in 2018 if he's healthy.
Sometimes I despair. Only sometimes?

I really appreciate WILLIAM's edict on root canals. I had no idea they were bad for you, and in hindsight, I'm so glad that I was hundreds of miles from a dentist or anyone with anything stronger than a mild narcotic when I had a molar go haywire. That abscess tasted and felt really amazing. The swelling was quite comely and I looooved feeling like the left side of my jaw was giving birth.

Saw this and had to post it here. It fits Trump down to the ground.
http://www.fin24.com/Economy/Dawie-Roodt-Powerful-people-think-power-me…

[Economist Dawie Roodt] said the powerful often confuse their power with competence.

"They prevent people from being free, because they think people cannot be trusted and they can make superior decisions – how naïve," said Roodt

This blogger argues,somewhat naively,thatBen Carson should be challenging Trump on vaccines.I seriously doubt Carson would never do this,for any number of reasons.Maybe Carson is hoping for a job in a future Trump Administration.Surgeon General,perhaps?

Trump went HUGE

@Roger Kulp --

Agree that it's naive. But at least he kinda disagreed.

BTW, unless Trump's anti-vaxitude has been in the media elsewhere recently, I'm sure that the reason the issue came up in the debate is that Orac wrote about it here. Couldn't be surer. That's how they do, in TV-news producing. They go looking for headlines that will lead to more headlines.

During last night's debate, Trump re-affirmed his anti-vax position via anecdata whilst Carson did a god job citing SBM that denies a link. Rand Paul appeared wishy- washy on the science but held that parental rights trump all.

Surprisingly, this was provoked by an actual question from the moderator.

As expected. Mike Adams continues his admiration for DT ( hey, wouldn't one scheming entrepreneur look up to one who has earned billions that fashion - rather than his own- probable- mere millions?) at Natural News.

Surprisingly, this was provoked by an actual question from the moderator.

I really think that was thanks to RI. When they put together the questions, they'd have been looking for something (anything!) on Trump that wasn't just the same-old. Because people eventually stop paying attention to the news if there's never any news, even with Trump. This post would have stood out.

Dan also chimes in at AoA ( see top of page, left).
Perhaps he thinks that now *their* issue will become a factor in determining outcomes of the nomination/ election process.

Oh crap, now their advocacy efforts will go into overdrive.

@ ann:

Well, we all KNEW that eventually the Power of Oracianism would extend across divers galactic realms- so why not political news?

An extensive analysis of the anti-vaxx lunacy on display last night:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/09/17/the-gops-d…

@Denice --

Indeed.

It showed good story sense on their part that they asked, imo. Among other things, he actually answered the question. And that's quite an achievement. He usually evades with generalities, or attacks, or both.

Every site and new agency--even some more right-leaning commentators--I've been on have had that exchange fact-checked as the first or one of the first items as UNEQUIVOCALLY WRONG. And sane autism advocacy groups are rightfully demanding his head on a platter.

Perhaps this will be what blows up in his face and sinks this $hit-show.

"I wonder: Why isn’t there a huge groundswell in the autism advocacy community for Donald Trump? "

Because, Dan, if you get out of your echo chamber you would notice that most of us don't believe in vaccines causing autism.

But being actually in touch with facts, or the autism community, has never been one of Dan Olmsted's strong points.

Ironic too that Olmsted--who has been phoning it in for years--wants a groundswell. The guy can't manage to write more that a 20 word post a week most times. But, hey, it's us in the autism advocacy community who aren't doing enough?

It's been said before--Olmsted would have to take a few steps up the journalistic ladder to reach the level of hack.

Perhaps this will be what blows up in his face and sinks this $hit-show.

It's definitely helping.

Orac is a Trump-slayer. Now that is something to be proud of. Honestly, I would die happy, if it were me. Go team.

BTW, the Washington Post is now just copy-pasting RI, then rearranging it somewhat.

Wrongly attributed one of the earlier quotes to the debate, too.

Orac is a Trump-slayer.

Not that there's any knowing for sure, but I'm totally serious about that. I used to work in media. I'd be very surprised if they came up with that question on their own, via original research. Very.

Very, very.

They either picked it up here, or from the August Daily News piece. But I doubt it was the latter, because that wasn't specifically about Trump. And that wouldn't really stand out. It's much likelier that they saw it here.

I think that's quite delightful.

More concerning is what Carson said in his response.

Michelle@138
Thanks for the link. The article is great but I made the mistake of skimming the comment. It's mostly partisan grumblings of the "damn liberals blowing things out of proportion" sort with a dash of true anti-vaccine garbage. The later was expected but I'm somewhat disappointed with the former. Is party loyalty really so strong? Sigh.

Mark N @ 144. Exactly. He made one reasonable opening sentence in response to Trump then drove off a cliff with it. I heard the quote thing, "WTF does he mean by many pediatricians?" Is that like his "many climate scientists?" "He's just reinforced the lack of evidence for any link, but we should change the schedule ANYWAY? BECAUSE? The problem is everyone deferred to him as the physician when the question should be why believe someone who denies basic science?
Oh, and ON BEHALF OF ALL OF ARIZONA I APOLOGIZE FOR WILLIAM @ 99; WE'VE HAD A CAP KEY SHORTAGE OVER THE LAST YEAR. DAMNED OBAMA!!!

I read it as Carson cleverly playing politics:

first, he is SBM - no studies link vaccines and autism- in fact, he re-iterates this, hints about Andy.
Then, he caters to the libertarians and naturalistas by echoing their concerns- parents' rights, too many too soon and purity whatever.
Thus, he addresses/ courts two different sets of possible voters..

I wish he had the courage to say what he plainly said last February.

"Certain communicable diseases have been largely eradicated by immunization policies in this country and we should not allow those diseases to return by foregoing safe immunization programs, for philosophical, religious, or other reasons when we have the means to eradicate them."

Of course, no candidate of either party could survive if people knew he was calling for a repeal of religious exemptions for vaccination.

As would be expected, AoA ( the Canary Party and Ann Dachel) are absolutely head-over-heels in love with the three candidates' various degrees of anti-vox.

For those keeping score, it appears that Attkisson's insane "hacking" lawsuit has failed to survive summary judgment.

OK, while I'm at it (and don't have the energy for anything else), Here goes another round of the Jan Gabriel Memorial Docket Update! Update! Update....

Attkisson v. Holder: gov.uscourts.dcd.170295. Voluntarily dismissed without prejudice. Cue the sad trombone, but beware that the slide might start moving "by itself."

U.S. ex rel. Krahling v. Merck: gov.uscourts.paed.381331. This is the keeper; check out document 86 (PDF).

Doctor's Data v. Barrett: gov.uscourts.ilnd.244564. Nothing much going on here.

Hooker v. HHS: gov.uscourts.cofc.2340. Ditto.

Tobinick v. Novella: gov.uscourts.flsd.443251. Mr. Laser Hair Removal seems to have gone through a weird frenzy of demanding sanctions that nobody was much interested in. Trial set for October 26.

Requests for further document downloads will be prioritized to Krahling & Wlochowski, if anybody wants any. Fifteen bucks only goes so far, and everybody in the U.S. gets them and can install RECAP.

I was going around to the dark places of the blogosphere looking for talk of the debate; AoA and NN were the only two and Denice Walter already mentioned both (speaking of NN no wonder Mike Adams loves trump. In my travels I came across what might be

Le sigh. On further consideration the post I was looking at isn't actually that bad. Carry on.

I found this in the NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/18/health/republican-presidential-debate…

Posted it on Thursday's column, and CapnKrunch @ 15 over there pointed me here.

Carson is trying to dog-whistle two notes at once, and attract two different kinds of dogs at the same time. I'm inclined to believe he thinks that each side won't hear the whistle that's directed toward the other. Ha, too late!

If WaPo is borrowing materials from here, good for them and good for Orac getting the word out even if he isn't getting credit where credit is due.

IMHO we should encourage Trump and the Fifteen Dwarfs (or are there fourteen now?) to hop on the antivax bandwagon all the way, because that will sink them in the general election if the Democrats want to use it. The vast majority of parents are with _us_ on this issue, and parents who see a direct threat to their kids go into instant protector mode.

Once they take the bait: first thing to do: label the Republicans "The Measles Party" and make it stick. Next, link this to their other anti-science positions. Next, have prominent religious figures come out saying that Republican anti-science is not pro-religion, it's just garbage in a shiny wrapper. The Pope has certainly been doing his share, and there's an Evangelical pastor who had a position in the Bush Admin who has just come out for Sanders, so he and other progressive Evangelicals may get onboard with this.

That kind of consensus across the board would be very difficult for the Rs to beat, and they would go down in a blaze. In order to come back to national relevance they would have to repudiate their anti-science BS.

It's worth a try.

Clarification: "once they take the bait" = once _the Republicans_ take the bait, label them The Measles Party...

"Depressingly, Ben Carson, while defending vaccines, fell into the “too many, too soon,” trope"..."

By their silence they all supported this.

The Financial Times labeled the entire debate "abysmal" whilst our USA media gleaned every stray morsel for meaning. Too many too soon applies to this screwball Republican performance.

GS,

I think turning vaccination into a partisan issue is a terribly dangerous idea. For the moment, unlike other forms of denial, it spans the ideological spectrum, which helps keep their numbers down. The Canary Freedom Party etc would like nothing more than to hitch their cause to a larger ideological current. Those larger currents are not going away, but there is still the chance that the merry bands of idiots do. They depend overwhelmingly on just a few people.

I should say, they're not going away, but they might just blend back into the crankosphere. At least one can hope

U.S. ex rel. Krahling v. Merck: gov.uscourts.paed.381331. This is the keeper; check out document 86 (PDF).

...

Maybe I'm reading it wrong. But what that document says to me is that Merck doesn't want to discuss the allegedly falsified tests and has succeeded in lawyering its way around doing so in response to the questions posed.

That kind of suggests there's more to what Krahling and Wlochowski are saying than nothing at all -- whether it's that the tests in question were in fact dubious or whether it's just that they could be made to appear that way.

Do we have a reason to think Krahling and Wlochowski aren't real whistleblowers who fell in with questionable bedfellows? The account in the complaint seems basically plausible to me.

That's not to say that it's true. I actually wouldn't be surprised if that's not provable either way. I just mean it doesn't sound like what they're saying was invented out of sheer antivaxitude or a false sense of persecution, at least in any obvious way.

Shorter version:

It sounds like they don't want to say anything about those tests until they're sure they know what K&W are holding. That suggests the tests are potentially problematic.

Thank you so much Narad for the legal updates; they are of great interest and hope you keep an eye on them. I read the document for Krahling v. Merck and I have to quibble with the use of the term efficacy as it is described on p. 3 of the .pdf. The lawyer is actually describing effectiveness. The numbers they used would also support this.

@ Narad:

Thanks for the legal information.

Heh. Attkisson has gone nowhere. Doctor's Data and Hooker
on the same path.

But how long will they go on beating those dead/ dying horses, I ask you?

^ Comment 150 was actually a different lawsuit from its description, which is the one in comment 151.

The first one was her attempt to ferret out the massive dossier that the FBI had accumulated on her, which proved to be seven uninteresting pages.

There's yet another one somewhere against HHS, but I'll worry about that later. She doesn't seem to have been "fearlessly" keeping her devotees apprised of these. Then again, Wakefield

^ Then again, Wakefield v. Willingham, etc.

Maybe I’m reading it wrong. But what that document says to me is that Merck doesn’t want to discuss the allegedly falsified tests and has succeeded in lawyering its way around doing so in response to the questions posed.

I left out one crucial detail, which is that searching on the gov.uscourts.* numbers will yield links to the archive.org dockets (which is why I mentioned requests for additional documents).

There's always going to be jockeying about discovery, but in this case, K&W really were just making a nonsensical demand.

That kind of suggests there’s more to what Krahling and Wlochowski are saying than nothing at all — whether it’s that the tests in question were in fact dubious or whether it’s just that they could be made to appear that way.

Do we have a reason to think Krahling and Wlochowski aren’t real whistleblowers who fell in with questionable bedfellows? The account in the complaint seems basically plausible to me.

Oh, I don't think they care about the antivaccine crowd at all. At this point, they're in it for the money; qui tam relators get a big chunk of any money decision.

^ K&W lost this one, BTW.

More pro-vax goodness from Bernie on Rachel Maddow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2oMcq3dTzM

Go to 6:17

Bernie says the science is clear vaccines do not cause autism,and parents are putting their kids at risk for serious diseases by not vaccinating.Bernie is no doctor,but it's a much more forceful statement than we heard from Dr. Carson at the debate.

Oh, I don’t think they care about the antivaccine crowd at all. At this point, they’re in it for the money; qui tam relators get a big chunk of any money decision.

Aha.

I guess I'd somehow formed the vague impression that reasonable people were rooting against them. I mean, for more reasons than that one would obviously prefer to think that Merck is not foisting off an inferior product on the nation.

A friend just posted this awesomeness on Facebook:

http://www.chadhayesmd.com/the-presidential-candidates-brief-guide-to-v…

James Lind @ 157:

Yes, that's the valid counter-arguement: don't polarize the issue, that might backfire against public health.

OTOH what's more dangerous than anti-vaxers are climate denialists. See also, all over Science Blogs, for the fire alarms from climate scientists about the absolutely devastating impacts we face from climate change. Even a novel flu pandemic isn't a risk of a near-extinction event for humanity. Climate change _is_. Ultimately, polarizing the anti-vax issue is a reasonable course of action, is because linking all the Republican anti-science stances will bring more people together to fight all of them.

Bottom line is, each of us needs to recognize that all of the anti-science stances are dangerous to every one of us, and our adversaries do not play nice: they play for keeps in a "winner take all" mentality. As the old saying goes, don't bring a knife to a gunfight. To which I would add, bring a platoon of Marines and armored infantry.

---

Roger @ 168:

Excellent, ten points to Bernie for stepping up to the plate on this one. We can reasonably expect Hillary to do likewise shortly, and we shouldn't criticize her for making a statement after Bernie made his. What matters is that they both make these statements.

---

It's already going partisan. We can't stop that now. The only question is how to use it for the largest general good. Admittedly, it's a risk, and James has the counter-arguement. But we are already living in dangerous times, and that situation is not going away. So IMHO we need to face it square-on and be willing to take on the fight.

I just came back to cry about Carson's statements. *cries* He needs a good long chat with Dr. Offit. I want to see that debate (Trump and Rand Paul not included, they're just delusional).

OTOH what’s more dangerous than anti-vaxers are climate denialists.

If members of a political party are willing to adopt climate-change denial, evolution denial and blastocyte personhood as badges of tribal identity, I don't really see how politicising the antivax credos into another shibboleth is going to break the camel's back and suddenly convince the party's voters that "Oh no, we were wrong all along".

I just came back to cry about Carson’s statements.

I am SHOCKED to find a presidential aspirant running away from statements of principle and preferring to pander and tergiversate.

Although I am on my way out the door...
dear old Dan ( AoA) certainly seems pleased that the vaccine question came up during the debate however, he is unhappy about how the mainstream media handled coverage. Right, he from his lofty position as editor of AoA can criticise outlets like the Times .

herr doktor bimler

I don’t really see how politicising the antivax credos into another shibboleth is going to break the camel’s back and suddenly convince the party’s voters that “Oh no, we were wrong all along”.

Yup. I think far more likely is that Republicans will buy into AV paranoia if only to tow the party line.

Gray Squirrel@171

Excellent, ten points to Bernie for stepping up to the plate on this one.

Agreed. Hopefully Hilary follows suite and doesn't see it as an opportunity to garner support from the crunchy, natural liberals. My guess would be that she will release a pro-vaccine statement because any good advisor should realize that they represent a small minority.

Right after that Sanders talks about how debates should involve both parties from the beginning. I totally agree. Right now they're more like press conferences than proper debates.

Hilary has flirted with Heyman and anti-vax in the past, but has left it behind. She has already made clear statements condemning the flat earth fundamentalism this time around.

Antivaxxers be like:
"Mission Accomplished! We got us a world leading physician to buy into our bullshit and proclaim it in prime time.. High five bitches!!"

Here is a rhyme about Donald Trump that illustrates how I feel about him.
I made this rhyme up.

Donald Trump is a stupid chump.
Trump belongs in a garbage dump.
Trump is dumber than a donkey's rump.

What do you think?

Answer to Donald Trump

Professor Johan van Dongen
Microsurgeon/Author

AFRICA
Bio-warfare Laboratory of German and Japanese War Criminals Under Guidance of the USA

The Revealing Voices of Aids/HIV Theory Dissidents

The horrific Aids pandemic tremendously has generated scientific controversies within and outside the scientific establishment. Only a minority of scientists, like Johan van Dongen, and other engaged people have access to inside information concerning (bio-warfare) Aids and Ebola research.

As an experimental microsurgeon Johan van Dongen, in the early seventies, almost at the beginning of the multiple organ transplantation era, has carried out thousands of experimental organ transplantations. In order to deal with organ rejection he administered, radiation and sera for diminishing the immunity of the organ receiver. Besides that he also administered uncountable agents to recipients of organs in order to trigger, diminish or completely whipe out the immune capacity which can be compared with Aids.

During his university and hospital appointments in the early seventies, and later undercover in the pharmaceutical industry, he discovered at that time that animals did'nt die because of rejection of the transplanted organ but because of multiple infections which can be compared with human Aids victims. So, Johan van Dongen noticed that Aids can be induced by radiation, aflatoxins, Immuran/prednisolone combination, anti lymfocyte sera and many other bio-warfare agents.

Dormant HIV virus

As head of the the Department of Experimental Microsurgery, and involved in all transplantation and immunological experiments, Johan also have been involved in many controversies. Especially the connection of his work and the polemic concerning the transmission of HIV in many ways he discovered not only in his experiments but also in the extensive scientific literature the role of an obligatory cofactor that transactivates the “Dormant” virus HIV in specific human cells. And this obligatory cofactor which transactivates the “Dormant” virus in specific human cells are deliberately introduced into mostly black-skinned African people, governed by massive environmental factors as you can read in our book: “Aids and Ebola the greatest crime in medical history against mankind,” in order to depopulate Africa.

Therefore we will always like to enlighten readers about the real origin of Aids and the true nature of famous international researchers as Robert Gallo.

And as far as Gallo is concerned, Ricardo Veronesi, professor of the Faculty of Medicine at the University of Sao Paulo, was personally informed about the true nature of Gallo's research long before this controversy turned into a public scandal and as a consequence thousands of scientific Aids dissidents.

It was no less then Francoise Barré-Sinoussi of the French Pasteur Institute who revealed the criminal intention of Gallo. And not only she became an Aids dissident but also the discover of the HIV virus Luc Montagnier disputed Gallo, the fake discoverer of the HIV virus.

In their opinion the major bursts in the common scientific approach lies in its ignoring that the pathogenicity of the HIV indeed is governed by multiple deliberate environmental factors. And one of these determinant factors is the PCR test (Polymerase Chain Reaction Test).

Polymerase Chain Reaction Test

This test is a technology in molecular biology used to amplify a single copy or a few copies of a piece of DNA across several orders of magnitude, generating thousands to millions of copies of a particular DNA sequence. Especially the diagnosis of hereditary diseases; the identification of genetic fingerprints, used in forensic sciences and paternity testing; and the detection and diagnosis of infectious diseases the PCR test can be used to investigate the connection of diseases to the specific black race. Moreover, PCR can be extensively modified to perform a wide array of genetic manipulations not only in humans but also from microorganisms which causes Aids and Ebola.

Using and extrapolation of these kind of techniques we can conclude that almost all persons who have HIV in their bodies, were purposely infected with this virus which can lead to Aids. Biowarfare scientists are able to made black-skinned people artificially susceptible for HIV or Ebola by using controlable diseases as a cover-up.

Most of the biowarfare research using viruses which causes Aids and Ebola was predominantly carried out in Germany and Japan until 1945 and since then mainly in the USA and France, using Nazi and Japanese (military) scientific war criminals.

The Revealing Voices of Aids/HIV Theory Dissidents

The official scientific origin of the diverse HIV-strains has been placed somewhere between 1938 and 1948 when scientist T.F. Smith et al published an article in the authoritative medical journal Nature about this period in 1988 named: “The phylogenetic history of immunodeficiency virus”.

And he was'nt the only scientists who revealed the true nature of the HIV virus. Smith's efforts to reveal the real origin of HIV was followed, to name a few, by Sharp et al with his article: “Understanding the origins of Aids viruses”, also in Nature, followed by Meyers et all with: “The phylogenetic analysis of the HIVs”. But the most important article is described in the top of the bill of medical journals the Lancet by scientist L.A. Evans et al who discovered the; “Simultaneous isolation of HIV-1 and HIV-2 from an Aids patient”.

And all these mentioned scientist agreed that the distribution of the HIV virus was an intentional action. Their findings makes it very conceivable that this distribution was intentional because sometimes both the new viruses HIV-1 and HIV-2, respectively HTLV-IV, are existing in one and the same person according to Evans. And because his publication is checked by the editing and scientific boards of the Lancet the outcome of his investigation is true. And this counts also for thousands of publications in other medical journals as described in our book “Aids and Ebola the greatest crime in medical history against mankind”.

German scientist Wolff Geisler

According to the famous Aids/HIV theory dissident Wolff Geisler further evidents of the intentional distribution, out of the mentioned simultaneous infection of the same persons, it was described as a second Aids epidemic in the same black-skinned population by an inefficient transmission of the HIV virus. The appearance of this extreme rare retrovirus among the African Aids patients is so conspicious that some world famous scientists uttered a sentence about it. They alleged this to be; “Only another acquired opportunistic infection but rather an additional death sentence”. But? Is it?

In Africa the probability of an early death of HIV patients is three times bigger then eslwere when HIV patients are simultaneously infected with HTLV-1 as described in the Lancet by Page et al in his scientific publication: HTLV-I/II seropositivity and death from Aids among HIV-I seropositive intravenous drug users (Lancet, 1990; 335: 1439-41), an even more extremely important publication for the Aids/HIV theory dissidents. Because especially HTLV-I, amongst many other HIV viruses, was only demonstrated in Uganda, Ghana, South Africa and Namibia. In HIV patients only in these countries appear simultaneously up till now. According to Wolff Geisler the concommitant existance of HTLV-I and HIV produces the observed rate of Aids patients in Uganda, Kenya and black-skinned people in Florida, USA and some Caibbean Islands, even though in general black-skinned persons are by nature more resistant against HIV-infection than pale-skinned persons (see below). This means the HIV viruses are geneticly engeneered as describe in our book.

No less than Luc Montagnier et al, the discoverer of the HIV virus stated that this virus is made out of the Nazi eugenics and genetic engeneered experiments as well as the development of Aids causing viruses in horses. In a very talked about article he described in the authoritative Annals of Virology: “A new type of retrovirus from patients presenting with lymphadenopathy and acquired immune deficiency syndrome”: Structural and antigenetic relatedness with Equine Infecious Aenemia Virus EIAV (horse Aids), 1984; 135E: 119-31.

Equine Infecious Aenemia Virus EIAV (HIV/Horse-Aids) made by Nazi Germany.

If we compare these findings to our references in:“Aids the greatest crime in medical history against mankind” the book now available at Amazon, the HLA-A, B, C, DR3 and DR5 loci, is examined by the Nazi’s led by Otmar Verschuer.

In 1956 he joined the American Eugenics Society and worked under auspices tiis of the Rockefeller-fund. He was also head of the Department of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute in Germany.

Furthermore we have to take into account that within people who have blood type HLA-DR3 Aids, it is much less common than in people who have the HLA-DR5 type. Under the Nazi’s research, it is important to note that precisely the HLA-DR5 type occurs mainly in Jews. The HLA-DR3 type contrast is most common in dark-colored Africans.

These two evidences or references are enough to let you know vividly what took place. In general you can say that it is harder for blacks to get Aids than as it is for whites, but blacks have been made susceptible for a broad spectrum of brand new diseases caused by Germans, partly under the auspices of the South African Apartheid regime, and after the war under guidance of the U.S.A.

Nowadays we now know that monkeys do not get Aids when infected with the human Aids virus. The same goes for tuberculosis until the moment that monkeys in a laboratory made receptive. Therefore black-skinned people are under no circumstances contaminated with Aids by monkeys with or without eating them. That is so to speak a criminal scientific ferrytale.

"It's about time we had some more walls of cut-&-pasted text from conspiratorial barmpots," said absolutely no-one.

Question To Donald Trump

Why Aren't You Killed
Like Jeff Bradstreet Or
Other Opponents Of Vaccinations
Which Not Only Causes Autism But Also Aids And Ebola?

This article is dedicated to Jeff Bradstreet: By Johan van Dongen

The above question is raised by me and many others, because recently in the United States of America, over seven doctors have been murdered or found dead in dubious circumstances. I find it very necessary to ask Donald Trump this question, because of the statement he made that: “Vaccines Do Cause Autism”, and also find an answer to why the disappearance from medical scene or mysterious deaths of alternative health doctors who have real cures, but opposed and not approved by the FDA.

When I saw the interviews that Dr. Jeff Bradstreet, nothing shows a possible suicide as mentioned by US governmental institutions. During this interview, Bradstreet showed his engagement, for he was not a person who give up easily. It was a very optimistic person with a normal attitude. He was laughing, joking and celebrating, because his autistic son just graduated high-school. The supposed reason for his “suicide” – an FDA raid on his clinic – is nothing new for him. There was nothing new in his life that would have been a reason for him to want to end his own life, only new things that would encourage him to live his life and perhaps encourage others to want to take their lives. Now we have to wait and see what happens with Donald Trump.

The overall conclusion

“Dr. Jeffrey Bradstreet has been under attack by big pharma for his success during all his professional life so there is no way he would have committed a suicide for just another attack. He was murdered; the FDA were clearly involved, and the other suspect is the MMR vaccine co-orporations, who work with the FDA. Dr Bradstreet loudly published the fact we all know: The MMR jab, which makes $ billions, causes autism.”

It is'nt only autism which is caused by vaccines but also Aids and Ebola. For decades Africa is used as a bio-warfare laboratory of German and Japanese war criminals under guidance of the USA, because they hide this Nazi basterds. This makes the USA the land of evil so once Donald Trump becomes president of the United States there is a lot work to do by replacing black prisoners by white pharmaceutical criminals in black three piece suits.
The horrific Aids pandemic tremendously has generated scientific controversies within and outside the scientific establishment. Only a minority of scientists and other engaged people have access to inside information concerning (bio-warfare) Aids and Ebola research.

As an experimental microsurgeon in the early seventies, almost at the beginning of the multiple organ transplantation era, I have carried out thousands of experimental organ transplantations. In order to deal with organ rejection he administered, radiation and sera for diminishing the immunity of the organ receiver. Besides that I also administered uncountable agents to recipients of organs in order to trigger, diminish or completely whipe out the immune capacity which can be compared with Aids.

During my university and hospital appointments in the early seventies, and later undercover in the pharmaceutical industry, I discovered at that time that animals did'nt die because of rejection of the transplanted organ but because of multiple infections which can be compared with human Aids victims. So, Inoticed that Aids can be induced by radiation, aflatoxins, Immuran/prednisolone combination, anti lymfocyte sera and many other bio-warfare agents.

Dormant HIV virus

As head of the the Department of Experimental Microsurgery, and involved in all transplantation and immunological experiments, I also have been involved in many controversies. Especially the connection of my work and the polemic concerning the transmission of HIV in many ways I discovered not only in experiments but also in the extensive scientific literature the role of an obligatory cofactor that transactivates the “Dormant” virus HIV in specific human cells. And this obligatory cofactor which transactivates the “Dormant” virus in specific human cells are deliberately introduced into mostly black-skinned African people, governed by massive environmental factors as you can read in our book: “Aids and Ebola the greatest crime in medical history against mankind,” in order to depopulate Africa and other parts of the world.

Aids and Ebola the greatest Crime in Medical
History Aginst mankind: Book published on:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Greatest-Medical-History-Against-Mankind-ebook/…

Therefore I will always like to enlighten readers about the real origin of Aids and the true nature of famous international researchers as Robert Gallo.

And as far as Gallo is concerned, Ricardo Veronesi, professor of the Faculty of Medicine at the University of Sao Paulo, was personally informed about the true nature of Gallo's research long before this controversy turned into a public scandal and as a consequence thousands of scientific Aids dissidents.

It was no less then Francoise Barré-Sinoussi of the French Pasteur Institute who revealed the criminal intention of Gallo. And not only she became an Aids dissident but also the discover of the HIV virus Luc Montagnier disputed Gallo, the fake discoverer of the HIV virus.

In their opinion the major bursts in the common scientific approach lies in its ignoring that the pathogenicity of the HIV indeed is governed by multiple deliberate environmental factors. And one of these determinant factors is the PCR test (Polymerase Chain Reaction Test).

Using and extrapolation of these kind of techniques we can conclude that almost all persons who have HIV in their bodies, were purposely infected with this virus which can lead to Aids. Biowarfare scientists are able to made black-skinned people artificially susceptible for HIV or Ebola by using controlable diseases as a cover-up.

Most of the biowarfare research using viruses which causes Aids and Ebola was predominantly carried out in Germany and Japan until 1945 and since then mainly in the USA and France, using Nazi and Japanese (military) scientific war criminals.

Autism/Aids/HIV Theory Dissidents Like Jeff Bradstreet

The official scientific origin of the diverse HIV-strains has been placed somewhere between 1938 and 1948 when scientist T.F. Smith et al published an article in the authoritative medical journal Nature about this period in 1988 named: “The phylogenetic history of immunodeficiency virus”.

And he was'nt the only scientists who revealed the true nature of the HIV virus. Smith's efforts to reveal the real origin of HIV was followed, to name a few, by Sharp et al with his article: “Understanding the origins of Aids viruses”, also in Nature, followed by Meyers et all with: “The phylogenetic analysis of the HIVs”. But the most important article is described in the top of the bill of medical journals the Lancet by scientist L.A. Evans et al who discovered the; “Simultaneous isolation of HIV-1 and HIV-2 from an Aids patient”.

And all these mentioned scientist agreed that the distribution of the HIV virus was an intentional action. Their findings makes it very conceivable that this distribution was intentional because sometimes both the new viruses HIV-1 and HIV-2, respectively HTLV-IV, are existing in one and the same person according to Evans. And because his publication is checked by the editing and scientific boards of the Lancet the outcome of his investigation is true. And this counts also for thousands of publications in other medical journals as described in our book “Aids and Ebola the greatest crime in medical history against mankind”.

According to the famous Aids/HIV theory dissident Wolff Geisler further evidents of the intentional distribution, out of the mentioned simultaneous infection of the same persons, it was described as a second Aids epidemic in the same black-skinned population by an inefficient transmission of the HIV virus. The appearance of this extreme rare retrovirus among the African Aids patients is so conspicious that some world famous scientists uttered a sentence about it. They alleged this to be; “Only another acquired opportunistic infection but rather an additional death sentence”. But? Is it?

In Africa the probability of an early death of HIV patients is three times bigger then eslwere when HIV patients are simultaneously infected with HTLV-1 as described in the Lancet by Page et al in his scientific publication: HTLV-I/II seropositivity and death from Aids among HIV-I seropositive intravenous drug users (Lancet, 1990; 335: 1439-41), an even more extremely important publication for the Aids/HIV theory dissidents. Because especially HTLV-I, amongst many other HIV viruses, was only demonstrated in Uganda, Ghana, South Africa and Namibia.

In HIV patients only in these countries appear simultaneously up till now. According to Wolff Geisler the concommitant existance of HTLV-I and HIV produces the observed rate of Aids patients in Uganda, Kenya and black-skinned people in Florida, USA and some Caibbean Islands, even though in general black-skinned persons are by nature more resistant against HIV-infection than pale-skinned persons (see below). This means the HIV viruses are geneticly engeneered as describe in our book.

No less than Luc Montagnier et al, the discoverer of the HIV virus stated that this virus is made out of the Nazi eugenics and genetic engeneered experiments as well as the development of Aids causing viruses in horses. In a very talked about article he described in the authoritative Annals of Virology: “A new type of retrovirus from patients presenting with lymphadenopathy and acquired immune deficiency syndrome”: Structural and antigenetic relatedness with Equine Infecious Aenemia Virus EIAV (horse Aids), 1984; 135E: 119-31.

Equine Infecious Aenemia Virus EIAV (HIV/Horse-Aids) made by Nazi Germany

If we compare these findings to our references in:“Aids the greatest crime in medical history against mankind” the book now available at Amazon, the HLA-A, B, C, DR3 and DR5 loci, is examined by the Nazi’s led by Otmar Verschuer.

In 1956 he joined the American Eugenics Society and worked under auspices tiis of the Rockefeller-fund. He was also head of the Department of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute in Germany.

Furthermore we have to take into account that within people who have blood type HLA-DR3 Aids, it is much less common than in people who have the HLA-DR5 type. Under the Nazi’s research, it is important to note that precisely the HLA-DR5 type occurs mainly in Jews. The HLA-DR3 type contrast is most common in dark-colored Africans.

These two evidences or references are enough to let you know vividly what took place. In general you can say that it is harder for blacks to get Aids than as it is for whites, but blacks have been made susceptible for a broad spectrum of brand new diseases caused by Germans, partly under the auspices of the South African Apartheid regime, and after the war under guidance of the U.S.A.

Nowadays we now know that monkeys do not get Aids when infected with the human Aids virus. The same goes for tuberculosis until the moment that monkeys in a laboratory made receptive. Therefore black-skinned people are under no circumstances contaminated with Aids by monkeys with or without eating them. That is so to speak a criminal WHO/ CDC / FDA scientific ferrytale.

Johan van Dongen
Microsurgeon/Author/Scientist
The Netherlands.