Supply Side creationism

Not sure I get it.

I am not the 99 percent. I am definitely not the 1 percent. I am the 53 percent. I work 45 hours per week, pay 30 percent in taxes even though my income is $11.30 per hour. On top of that I am expected to pay for my neighbor's medicaid, medicare, welfare, food stamps, and all 91 his children's needs so that he can go buy shiny wheels for his SUV, go buy gold teeth and new rap records and a new big screen tv to watch the game on? Sounds like one sided deal to me. Instead of the super rich paying a little more in tax, why not let the frauds t the bottom pay for their own cable, cell phone, television,rap cds, new shiny wheels, neew gold teeth and old jewelry, so on? What wrong with them paying for their own stuff? I gueesonly we evil rich white people have to do that eh?

I object to your racist insinuation that only white people can be rich and evil, and suspect similar prejudice lies at the root of the rest of your post.

That said, there absolutely should be mechanisms in place to minimize and try to eliminate people who take advantage of safety net systems. However, anecdotes like yours, which is not a very strong one to begin with, do not provide useful data about how many of your tax dollars are wasted on undeserving welfare recipients.

I don't know if it is a lot, but I do know that it has been a right wing distortion since Ronald Reagan's war on welfare queens.

And BTW, for the purposes of these discussions, the 99% includes people in the 53rd percentile.

Sorry. I fail to include myself in a group of violent left wing protestors, many of whom ae leftovers from the summer of sin (1967). Fellow, that failed era is over. The only thing the violent left wingers contributed to society in the 60s ws the new era in sin without consequence. Thanks for that by the way. More evil is what we all wished for. I happen to belong to the party of Abraham Lincoln, not Karl Marx.

I am not the 99 percent. I am sovereign individual. My rights come from God and not government. I determine my own fate, not you nd not the government. I am a free man, not a percentage personality. I refuse to be part of your violent left wing movement for so called social justice and so called economic justice and world governance. I am nd will always remain a sovereign individual accountable to God. The only thing that can change that is death and not even death is permanent.

Good luck trying to use the tired worn out old race card to get what you want and to try and silence people. We just laugh at you and keep moving. That trick was a nice one while it lasted, but we caught on. Time to learn some new tricks man.

"I fail to include myself in a group of violent left wing protestors, many of whom ae leftovers from the summer of sin (1967)."

The vast majority of protesters at Occupy Wall St etc were not even born in 1977, let alone 1967.

"The only thing the violent left wingers contributed to society in the 60s ws the new era in sin without consequence.

I'm going to throw in equal rights for women and blacks as well - but I guess rightwing nut jobs like you would rather return to the days of oppression. 1967 was a particularly important one in my country in the struggle for recognition of indigenous rights. But hey, I guess the rights that blacks possessed prior to that would have come from god, so how could the government possibly have granted them any more?

" My rights come from God and not government."

And since there is no such thing as god except in the mind of man, I guess you are stuffed then. And all the rights you or anyone else possesses comes from government - and government can take them away. Just like they government didn't allow equal rights for all in the past.

I refuse to be part of your violent left wing movement for so called social justice and so called economic justice and world governance

Yeah - can't have justice for all can we?

"We just laugh at you and keep moving.

The difference between you and me is that I am moving forward. You are trying to move backwards to a place that never existed. Good luck with that. I laugh at you and keep moving forward. Time to learn some new tricks - like equality and justice for all, rather than just the privileged few.

insufficient combattant, well said. the only thing missing is that agw is complete bullshit and renewable energies a bad joke.

and mandas is already on his way to hell

"On top of that I am expected to pay for my neighbor’s medicaid, medicare, welfare, food stamps"

Incorrect.

Social Services were paid out of the money given to the government out of the wage packet.

However, this 22Trillion (IIRC) was raided by George W Bush to pay for tax cuts for the 1%.

Because this money had "gone", there was nothing to offset the costs of social security and so they were now "underfunded".

You are now having to pay for others social security because someone raided the piggy bank to pay for tax cuts for the rich.

Everyone already knows tht American Global Warming (AGW) is bull. It is a wealth redistribution ponzi scheme. Now I realize that Al Gore and his band of merry men all believe that when everyone goes to bed at night carbon fairies come out and sprinkle carbon dust into the sky and heat the earth. I m not one to believe in such nonsense. Even evolution is easier to believe than man made climate change and believe me, evolution has made a monkey's uncle out of mankind. Silliest bunch of crud that was ever thought up. Drwin was nothing more that a grouchy old life support system for a hairy face.

Yeah I saw all the old hippies and all the new punks at the Occupy rallies. They littered the streets with their filth and then had the gall to preach to everyone else about saving the environment. Hypocrits. Violent ones at that. Their violent reactions looked like something we would see Hamas do in Israel. If the world ever ran out of liquor, bottles, and rocks, hippies and islamic terrorists wouldn't have anything to throw at normal people.

Geoge Bush never gave "tax cuts for the rich" as you people call it. The tax custs went to everyone. I make $11.30 per hour. My take home pay went up about $32 per month becuase of the tax cuts. That sounds like very little but it adds up over the years. The tax cuts were based on PERCENTAGE, not dollars. So, if a person making minimum wage and a person mking a trillion dollars a minute got a 5% tax cut, guess who will get the most dollar amount tax cut? Yep, the trillionaire, becuase the cut was based on PERCENTAGE. If you people would read and do mth instead on crapping on cop cars, littering the streets with used liquor bottles, and complaining about not being able to steal from people who have more than you, you might learn something. Try using your head for something besides a hatrack.

Mands, you are typical liberal. Always griping becuase people are not "moving forward". You are not moving forward, you are moving downward into hell. You keep moving "forward", and I will keep on staying in the place where thing are normal like they were created to be. Usually when we "move forward" there is hell to pay. The last time we moved forward we got gay so called marriage a fake healthcare system designed to control population. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but endorsing sin is NOT "moving forward" at all.

No wonder Insufficient Combatant is so angry. He makes just above minimum wage but that is most likely because he failed to get "sufficient education". He is a desperate fool who is angry about everyone and everything when he should stop and look at himself and ask where he went wrong. He probably skipped most of his education. No wonder he gets just above minimum wage with an attitude like his.

I don't know how old he is but there is probably still time for him to get an education and pull himself up by his boot straps and get that huge chip off his shoulder.

Minumum wage is $7.25 where I am. I did not skip education, though I did skip many math classes in high school. I caught hell in college math, but made it through.

Besides. In a few years when Jesus comes backs and incinerates this earth and makes us a new one, what difference will my education make then? Or yours for that matter?

I hve no intention of a further education. It is a waste of time and money for me. I am 33 years old by the way. You are supposed to trust me. I am under 35 right? Eventually I may look for a new career that is unless Obumbles gets elected again and the economy gets worse. And it will. No wants to hire if they have to pay more taxes.

Besides I am working on a plan of my own to earn some extra money. I have a unique opportunity at a technology not many have seen. I am working on a way of getting that technology into the market for sale. I didn't create it, but if I get my hands on, it will for sale to the highest bidder.

Living easy, living free
Season ticket on a one-way ride
Asking nothing, leave me be
Taking everything in my stride
Don't need reason, don't need rhyme
Ain't nothing I would rather do
Going down, party time
My friends are gonna be there too
I'm on the highway to hell
Highway to hell
Highway to helllllllllllllll

And I'm going down yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

"Everyone already knows tht American Global Warming (AGW) is bull."

Well, since you just made that up, yes, it is bull.

AGW is the natural consequence of human actions on the climate, though.

"Geoge Bush never gave “tax cuts for the rich” as you people call it"

Yes he did.

Tell me, are you just going to make shit up for the hell of it?

"The tax cuts were based on PERCENTAGE"

And paid for out of social security, causing it now to be unfunded. And the percentage cut in taxes were higher for the higher brackets. I knew USians often had no idea of the history of the world, I didn't know it extended to the history of their own country.

Or were you home-schooled?

"I did not skip education, though I did skip many math classes in high school."

So you did skip education.

" In a few years when Jesus comes backs "

Including skipping English.

PS JC's currently nearly 1,100 years late so far.

"No wants to hire if they have to pay more taxes."

If they hire, they get profit from your work. Unless revenue is taxed directly, they would be refusing extra money for YOUR work.

Apparently this is the result of skipping maths classes. You decide that if you get more money then you won't bother hiring people because you pay taxes on that more money...

and wow skipped everything to become a decent human being, he is just an annoying arrogant green leftist, poor and ill-mannered european brat of fucking old europe without any knowledge and education, especially regarding climate, weather, economy, history, biology, mathematics, medicine, physics and atmospheric sciences. as a failed unemployed he hates everybody who is successful, rich, and good looking. what a poor pig, this poor wow is.

I think a WHOOOSH is appropriate here for our latest bratty whining anklebiter.

Insufficient Understanding:

Everyone already knows tht American Global Warming (AGW) is bull. It is a wealth redistribution ponzi scheme. Now I realize that Al Gore and his band of merry men all believe that when everyone goes to bed at night carbon fairies come out and sprinkle carbon dust into the sky and heat the earth. I m not one to believe in such nonsense. Even evolution is easier to believe than man made climate change and believe me, evolution has made a monkey’s uncle out of mankind. Silliest bunch of crud that was ever thought up. Drwin was nothing more that a grouchy old life support system for a hairy face.

This looks like a textbook example of the Dunning-Kruger effect. Knows nothing about how science works, but is confident it's all a hoax. Can't imagine that anyone else knows more than he does. Thinks that scientific understanding is equivalent to religious belief. Thinks Al Gore (who?) made climate science up. Knows nothing about evolution, but knows he doesn't want to be related to monkeys. Saw a picture of Darwin once, so he knows Darwin was just a hairy, grumpy old man.

Darwin himself said "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge". Insufficient Understanding, your confident ignorance defeats us.

kai:

insufficient combattant, well said.

I've said elsewhere I think kai is a spambot, but it's able to distinguish comments it likes from those it doesn't. Now I'm wondering if kai is actually Neil Craig. If it starts calling everyone a Nazi, then I'll know for sure.

"If it starts calling everyone a Nazi, then I’ll know for sure."

Already happened.

Guys, your being trolled. Nobody really says "I work 45 hours per week, pay 30 percent in taxes even though my income is $11.30 per hour. "

Right?

http://us.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/hourly.php

I am pretty sure blueshift is right about insufficient combatant being a troll, just like kai. Which is why I just laughed at his pathetic attempt to get a rise out of me by saying I was going to hell.

Anyone who claims to have gone to college but only makes $11.30 an hour is either lying, did not graduate, or went to the worst college in the world. Community college perhaps?

The best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them or laugh at them.

Yes community college.

Yes I make $11.30 per hour which the gorss amount would be $462 for forty hours of work.

What I actually get to take home with me is about $302 every week. Of course my health insurance accounts for $50 per week, but the other $110 is pure taxes. Federal, state, medicare, social security. Of course I am a white single male, so I have to pay more.

Yes Jesus will come back. He didn;t say the exact date, but He gave clues to his appearance many of which we see happening right before our very eyes today.

Yes Darwin was a grumpy old fart with failed ideas and has a modern band of grumpy old fart followers who have even worse ideas than he did.

Not only did Al Gore invent the internet, he invented American Global Warming (AGW) as well. He has profited greatly from this ponzi scheme. Now let's arrest him for fraud.

I would not call anyone here a Nazi. It takes brains to be a Nazi. However, there is the anti-Israel sentiment in the democrat party ...

Mandas, I like your little song there. Do you like mine?

There once was a man name Darwin
who was never very charmin'.
He was old and grumpy
becuase his pillow was lumpy.
He face was hairy
and his brain scary.
He nevr used a fork or a plate
becuase he ate like his cousin the ape.
He told children lie about man
and while sat on thye can.
He was dope
he had no hope
He hated the Pope
and he smoked dope.
When he told the kids about apes
they threw at him some grapes.
He was now angry bitter and high,
but the kids just laughed at him becuase they knew he was a lie.

This was the story of a hairy old fart
who used his hat a s shopping cart.
Of darwin, people are not a fan,
he was just a sick grumpy hairy old man.

Hmmmmmm, who to believe on this issue?

Scientists with PhDs and years of experience, writing peer reviewed papers in science journals based on mountains of evidence,

or........

A redneck fundie community college drop out who's job consists of asking customers "would you like fries with that?"

I do not work in fast food.

Who do I believe on this issue? 6500 years of Biblical wisdom from the God of the universe or a hippie with a belief in carbon fairies and monkey to men evolution complexes?

Your phDs and your "peer reviewed" journals are crap. They only dignify your political stance. A PhD is just a piece of paper. It can burn like anything else. My soul is forever.

Peer reveiwed? Who exactly are the peers who are doing the reviewing and what political contribution do you stand to gain by their support?

And for your informaton, I did not drop out. I did graduate with a degree. It was an Associate of Applied Science degree. But like I said earlier. it is just a piece of paper. Most of the classes that I was forced against my will to take had nothing whatsoever to do with the area of my degree. Schools make you take crap in order to keep you there longer so they can make more money. College is just another money making racket these days.

For example. If you were going to learn to be a carpenter, why the hell would you need to take a class in Child development? Biology? Do these subjects have anything whatsover to do with building houses?

I am no carpenter, just an example of needless classes that you will never use. Money wasted and time wasted. If I ever do decide to go back, I will only take the classes I need to for the skill that I wish to learn. No more wasted time and money on something that will not be used.

Biblical wisdom huh? Well then, you should be able to answer a question for me since you know so much about the bible.

In Genesis 8:15-19, it says:

15 Then God spoke to Noah, saying, 16 “Go out of the ark, you and your wife, and your sons and your sons’ wives with you. 17 Bring out with you every living thing of all flesh that is with you: birds and cattle and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, so that they may abound on the earth, and be fruitful and multiply on the earth.” 18 So Noah went out, and his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives with him. 19 Every animal, every creeping thing, every bird, and whatever creeps on the earth, according to their families, went out of the ark.

There is an animal in my country called a koala. You may have heard of it. Slow moving arboreal creature. Only eats certain varieties of eucalypt leaves. I was wondering how it managed to get to Australia from the middle east. It can't swim, and there would have been nothing for it to eat on the way home. Bit confusing that one.

And I have some friends in New Zealand. Their national symbol is the kiwi. Nocturnal flightless bird. It can't swim either. I was wondering how it got back to New Zealand as well.

I have lots of questions - but these will do for a start. Perhaps after that you can explain all the internal contradictions in the bible. Since you are an expert in science with your - what did you call it?.... associate degree in applied science - you should have no problem.

Oh goody, the boy with no educashun get sot explian things to the Doctor. With pleasure. it is quite simple my hairy palmed friend.

Before the tme of the flood, australia did not exist as we know it today. Well, technically it existed, but there was not seven continents. Only once. The seperation of the continents was partially the result of the flood and the breaking apart of the land. Much of the water that covered the earth came from rain, but much of it also came from "the great deep" as well.

Over time after the flood man traveled and seperated into nations. Mne traveled the globe. The contnets directly after the flood and after the incident at the Tower of Babel were not as far apart as they are today.

Not only that but land bridges due to the ice age that followed the flood allowed people and animals to travel to differnt regions as well. So, animals got spread all oer the world by boat, land bridges, etc.

Most of the dinosaurs that survived on the akr reproduced for a while, but due to the following ice age and due to tribal hunting parties, most were either hunted to exinction for sport of from fear. The rest starved or froze to death.

Good enough, or should I redirect you to ken ham and a few thousand more creationist leaders?

What internal contradictions do you speak of?

A smart "scientist" like your self should be able to get on the internet machine that Al Gore created and google "bible contradictions" and see the many unwinnable debates that you liberals call internal contradictions floating about the Gorenet these days.

What EXACT contradiction do you claim is in the Bible?

What about all the contradictions to American Global Warming? There is not but about 35,000 science majors who are weather and climate science majors who disagree with the UN on this issue. The trouble is they get silenced.

Don't change the subject. How about you answer the questions I asked you about the bible.

You see my idiot acquaintance, I asked you how koalas walked to Australia and kiwis walked to NZ after the flood.

Since, as you just said, the continents were separated after the flood and there was water in the way. There was no ice age and no land bridges 4000 years ago - there is no reference in the bible nor in the geological record.

So - try again. And provide evidence for your answer. Even a biblical passage will do.

"What internal contradictions do you speak of? "

1) What was the order of creation.

2) Where was Jesus born.

3) What caused Joseph to move.

"What about all the contradictions to American Global Warming?"

What contradictions?

@mandas,

whoever believes in "the flood" has never talked to someone working in a zoo. It is utterly ridiculous to think that just seven or so people would have been able to look after ALL the spicies in the world for over a year, when it takes around a hundred or even more to keep a TINY fraction of this alive in a zoo.

Similarly ridiculous is the notion that a ALL-KNOWING god should not have known the further course of events but learns it the hard way: "And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth" (Genesis 6,6).

And as a consequence the ALL-LOVING god then decides to wipe out 99.99999% of all their creation? Excuse me, how ridiculous is that?

By the way, Genesis 6 has some more things that give believers something hard to chew on: "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose."

SonS of god having sex with women on Earth? Was Jesus among them? According to the christian faith he exists eternally so he must have been present then. NO contradictions in the bible as Insufficient Combatant claims? I doubt that he has ever read the thing, at least he did not understand what it says!

"So, animals got spread all oer the world by boat, land bridges, etc."

I just imagine the Aborigines taking all those harmful, poisonous snakes, spiders, etc. with them in their boats when they first settled in Australia.

"Good enough, or should I redirect you to ken ham and a few thousand more creationist leaders?"

Leaders? These people are either completely out of their minds when they honestly believe what they preach or - much more likely - they are simply frauds who have found a clever, albeit deeply depraved way, of making gullible people part with their money.

When believers give the tithe to their "church" it only takes a few dozens of followers for a self-proclaimed "priest" to be able to live comfortably on what they give to him.

Sorry typo: "spicies" should read "species".

Contradictions in the bible?

Just a short list, naming but a few:

God good to all, or just a few?
War or Peace?
Who is the father of Joseph?
Who was at the Empty Tomb?
Is Jesus equal to or lesser than?
Which first, beasts or man?
How many stalls and horsemen?
Is it folly to be wise or not?
Human vs. ghostly impregnation
The sins of the father
Rabbits do not chew their cud
Snails do not melt
Fowl from waters or ground
Odd genetics
The shape of the earth
Snakes, while built low, do not eat dirt
Earth supported?
Heaven supported too
The hydrological cycle
Order of creation
Moses' personality
Righteous live?
Jesus' first sermon plain or mount?
Jesus' last words
Years of famine
Moved David to anger?
The genealogy of Jesus?
God be seen?
Cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious or kind, merciful, and good
Tempts?
Judas died how?
Ascend to heaven
What was Jesus' prediction regarding Peter's denial?
How many times did the cock crow?
How many beatitudes in the Sermon on the Mount
Does every man sin?
Who bought potter's field?
Who prophesied the potter's field?
Who bears guilt?
Do you answer a fool?
How many children did Michal, the daughter of Saul, have?
How old was Jehoiachin when he began to reign?
Marriage?
Did those with Saul/Paul at his conversion hear a voice?
Where was Jesus three days after his baptism?
How many apostles were in office between the resurrection and ascension?
Judging
Good deeds
For or against?
Whom did they see at the tomb?
God change?
Destruction of cities (what said was Jeremiah was Zechariah)
Who's sepulchers?
Strong drink?
When second coming?
Solomon's overseers
The mother of Abijah
When did Baasha die?
How old was Ahaziah when he began to reign?
The differences in the census figures of Ezra and Nehemiah
What was the color of the robe placed on Jesus during his trial?
What did they give him to drink?
How long was Jesus in the tomb?

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions…

Another good website dealing with the absurdities of religion ist this:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

I particularly like its clear and unrefutable logic. There is not much that believers can argue in return.

Nice start there Jan. Of course, as the death and resurrection of hey-sus is the most important fairy story in the collection, you would think they could get that one right. But....

Who carried the cross?
What did the two thieves say to hey-sus?
What was written in the sign above the cross?
What were hey-sus's last words?
Who prepared the body?
Who discovered the empty tomb?
What did they see when the did?
What did they do next?

I mean, if you can't get those basics right, what hope is there for the rest of the collection of fairy stories?

And on the subject of zoos, floods and animals - yes, I know what you mean. I work with wildlife, so I am pretty familiar with what is required to feed and house them etc. I just picked koalas and kiwis as an example.

There is of course the issue of all the fish. How did they survive the flood? Was the water fresh - if so, all the salt water fish would have died. Was the water salty? If so, all the fresh water fish would have died.

And a talking snake? Since snakes possess neither ears of vocal cords, it was probably unlikely.

But then, logic, evidence, and rationality have never swayed a creationist from their unshakeable belief that a book of fairy stories written by bronze age goat herders is a 100% accurate account of the history of the universe.

I think I will stick with the facts.

The geological record could be wrong. After all, geologists say the earth is billions of years old when the Bible accounts the creation of man 6500 years ago.

Yes there were land bridges and an ice age after the flood. Perhaps koalas nevr walked there. It could have been sea faring travelers who spread all over the earth who took these creature hither and yon. At any rate, yes they could have made it there on their own using land bridges and ice glaciers.

Jan your so called contradictions are laugable. I see no contradictions at all. Which specific contradiction do you refer? You cna read for yourself the answer to every question you asked.

I am not sure of your intnet on these undisputed so called contradictions. Judas hanged himself by the way.

"What contradiction to global warming" I say? Just 30,000 plus men and women of difference scientific backgrounds including NASA officials who say that your doomsday carbon fairy fear mongering global wealth redistribution scheme is caused by the SUN and natural earth cycles.

Glaciers melt. They come and go. It's natural.

As for talking snakes, there was also a talking donkey as well. It was not the snake or donkey itself who talked, but the angelic or demonic entity controlling it who spake from it. Even King Solomon in The Testamnet of Solomon and The Lesser Key of Solomon possesed a talisman that allowed him to communicate with animals as if they could speak directly to him. This ritual has been in the practice of black magic for centuries, though so called witches to my knowledge have ever been able to tak directly to animals. Solomon's ring and talisman was of angelic messengers, not made from human hands.

" just imagine the Aborigines taking all those harmful, poisonous snakes, spiders, etc. with them in their boats when they first settled in Australia."

Imagine velociraptors and T rex on the ark!

Sons of God who laid with the daughters of men and gave rise to a new race of giants. Yes this happened. There is evidence of giants all over the earth including california, Nevada, new Mexico, and all over the world. There is even Viking lore of warriors who got lost in the underworld and encountered a race of giants and other ugly creatures whom they killed and fled away. The sons of God were the angels who rebelled against God and whom God threw out of Heaven and forced to wander the earth until the time of the judgement. It was demonic entities who created this new race.

The bronze age goat herders were smart eneough to know they were created by God and stupid enough to believe they were just another animals like the ones they were herding. I cannot say the same for some men today.

You go ahead and stick with your demonic inspired "facts" . they will do you well on earth, but will be more than useless on judgement day.

So I ask again:

Who carried the cross?
What did the two thieves say to hey-sus?
What was written in the sign above the cross?
What were hey-sus’s last words?
Who prepared the body?
Who discovered the empty tomb?
What did they see when the did?
What did they do next?

It's quite funny to see our combattant come with an appeal to scientific authorities...and then claim the existence of a god.

Well, here's something to think about next time he wants to refer to scientific authorities:
93% of the members of the National Academy of Scientists classify themselves as atheists.The top scientists in the US reject your silly beliefs!

"The geological record could be wrong."

And the bible could be wrong.

When you look at it, it HAS to be wrong since it contradicts itself in what is supposed to be accounts dictated by an omnipresent observer.

@Insufficient Combatant,

"The geological record could be wrong. After all, geologists say the earth is billions of years old when the Bible accounts the creation of man 6500 years ago."

The important diffenrence being that for the former there is evidence, for the latter there is none other than silly claims in a book that is pathetic at least as far as statements about the early history of the real world are concerned. (I won't discuss all the other pathetic statements in that book for now.)

The age of Earth is 4,6 billion years, there is no doubt about that since a number of scientifically testable facts unmistakably point in that direction.

The mistake that YEC (young Earth creationists) make is nearly a million-fold. It's like claiming that the distance between NY and LA is only a few inches and not 2800 miles (courtesy to R. Dawkins for that comparison).

Geology is definitely NOT wrong about the age of Earth. Just learn about the basics of geology and then watch almost any movie or documentary that shows mountanous landscapes. In most of them you can see the layered structures of sedimentary rocks. Even better: go and see for yourself in real nature!

WIth a little knowledge of geology you will soon understand that each individual layer - sometimes only an inch or less in thickness - may take as long as a hundred years to be formed. And what's more, some of these layers can only be formed on the sea bed, while others are formed by erosion and wind only on dry land. And these layers alternate! So how could they have been formed within a few days as YECs claim? Absolutely impossible!

And then there's radioactive dating, a method that has been developed and tested for more than a hundred yeras now and gives very reliable data about the age of the material probed.

These are but two examples of how the old age of Earth can be demonstrated scientifically beyond any doubt.

The sad thing is that most YECs (and also OECs in the filed of biology) know they are talking rubbish and consciously lie to their fellow human beings. So much for honest Chrisitans!

Those who honestly believe their nonsense are too stupid to argue with. They would not accept nor understand any facts about the real world because they have formed their own, utterly ridiculous, view of the world from religious hearsay and are totally immune to facts, reason and logic.. (Mind you, the vast majority of those people who call themselves Christians are totally ignorant of what the bible really says, they just believe what others have told them about the book. )

I too work hard and know many in the high tech corridors who spend 70-80 hours a week on average. I can assure you that they don't have enough spare time to write long childish diatribes like "InsufficientCombatant" does. This guy is a loser who seems to have wa--a--yy too much time on his hands. Ignore him. He's a NOBODY.

From now until the time of Christ's birth is roughly 2012 years.

From Christ back to Abraham is roughly another 2000 years give or take 50 years.

From Abraham back to ADAM, the first man, is roughly about another 2000 years.

This puts mankind's age at about 6000 to 6500 years.

The grand canyon is how old? Being that it formed as a result of the global flood in Noha's day, it is fairly young along with many other things that you say are very old.

Dating rocks on top of the ground exposed to radiation and fires is NOT an accurate way to tell the age of anything.

The Bible is wrong? Well, you are entitled to your opinion. It is your manmade history and geology books that are wrong my hairy palmed friend.

No, it puts the age of the fictional geneology at 6000 years. Or maybe 10,000 years. A lot depends on which geneology you think is right out of the TWO DIFFERENT geneologies in that bible.

However, mankind as a Hominid has lasted 5-7 million years, with many species occurring millions of years before that.

You would have thought that the writers of the bible would have mentioned a Diplodocus or a T-Rex, wouldn't you, if it were right that mankind was made such a short time after the first creatures made.

No such thing as your mythical "millions of years" and no such thing as evolution. Apes were created as apes and man was created as man. Fully intact as you see them now.

There was leviathan and behemoth. An animal so large that its tail was "like a cedar tree". That hardly dexcribes a regular lizard. King nebuchanezzar had in his possession a great "dragon" which his peope captured and kept locked away. This captured dinosaur or "dragon" was there even when Israel, or Judah, was captured and Daniel and the Israelites were led into captivity.

So, yes the Bible does kind of talk about dinosaurs. Even when Moses was leading the Israelites to the promised land larged winged creatures (flying dragons) would swoop down and try to pick up people. I hardly thing a buzzard or an eagle could do such a feat.

Some Pterasaurs still exist to this day. I once saw an old photo from th civil war with union soldiers who killed a larged winged creature with no feathers. This beasts wings were enormous. The body was arger than the soldier who killed it. The wings had to be 7 or 8 feet long each. Even in the congo there are still reports of large creatues with leathery wings that stil fly around, not to mention Mokle-Membe, the smaller dinosaurs that were sighted as late as the 1990s. Even in malta such reports have occured as late as 2003.

I feel i am wasting my time trying to get you to think outside thee science box and listen to reality. Science cannot explain everything. Somethings you just have to accept and move on without an explanation.

Oh, Conservapedia is really predicting that 2013 is going to be a bad year for darwin worshippers. Looks like evolution is going to crumble. Oh and you are just in time as well. They are talking about your mythical Bible errors there today as well.

And, in line with previous accuracy records, conservapedia will be wrong again.

Mythical bibe errors?

You've never read the bible, have you.

wow, you won't even be close to understand of what i am trying constantly - without any success - to instruct you: your insane climate idiocy is by far more primitive than anything else you are criticizing here. just shut up blaming others they are idiots when you by far are the biggist idiot around.

I'm still waiting for an answer:

Who carried the cross?
What did the two thieves say to hey-sus?
What was written in the sign above the cross?
What were hey-sus’s last words?
Who prepared the body?
Who discovered the empty tomb?
What did they see when the did?
What did they do next?

@Insufficient Combatant,

I wonder if conservapedia qualifies for the biggest heap of BS in the universe.

Reading that stuff is an utter waste of time, there are hardly any correct claims among the collections of errors and lies that they spread.

Conservapedia is an insult to any honest conservative (provided, there are any). :-)

As I said before, anybody ho believes that Earth could not be older than 10,000 years, is an idiot, who does not have the slightest knowledge of the world about them.

Have you ever heard of ice-cores? They are one of the many, many different ways of proving YEC to be wrong.

In Greenland the ice is some 10,000 feet thick and its age is about 600,000 years, which is easily shown:

Each year a new layer of snow is formed and during the short summer there is a partial melt at the top which makes it easy to distinguish one layer from the other. So when scientists extract an ice-core by boring a vertical hole into the ice they can actually count backwards over long periods of time and pin down a layer to one particular year. So there is absolute calibration of the age of the ice. Errors can be ruled out because the dating can be cross-referenced to historical events whose years are known from other sources, e. g., the eruptions of volcanoes that leave volcanic ash in the corresponding layer.

Mount Vesuvius may serve as an example: as almost everyone knows, one large eruption, in which Pompeii and Herculaneum were destroyed, occured in the year 79. So when scientist examine ice from that and the following year they do find deposits of volcanic ash that can be verified as coming from Vesivius, since each volcano on Earth has its own characteristic combination of elements (and their isotopes) conserved in its ash. Game over for those ignorant idiots who claim a young age of Earth! :-)

@Jan

I offer my apologies for being wrong. I understand that you were there to witness all this isoptopeness and volcanic ashiness happening? If so, my apologies. If you were not there, you are wrong. Ice cores prove nothing. The largest flood in earth history happened 4500 years ago and the proff is on every continent on the planet and you talk about some ice core. Ice can for m rapidly and core can be decieving just like telling the age of a tree by its rings. Some years have more than one ring growth. Ice cores are an even worse example.

As for your beloved and wrong assumption about ice cores see article http://www.icr.org/article/355/

If that is not enough I can get you much more. Don't even start on oil either. I can hurt your feeling real bad on the subject of natural earth made oil.

Come on IC, I am still waiting for you to check your book of fairy stories for the answers to my questions. When are ytou going to respond?

Who carried the cross?
What did the two thieves say to hey-sus?
What was written in the sign above the cross?
What were hey-sus’s last words?
Who prepared the body?
Who discovered the empty tomb?
What did they see when the did?
What did they do next?

Which book of fairy stories would that be?

I do not have any evolution or global warming books, so I cannot look at a book of fairy stories.

Typical creationist. Hasn't even rad the source of his ideology so he can't answer questions about what is in it.

At least I base my views on things I have read and understand. You should try it sometime IC. It's called having credibility. A new word for you I know. It stops people from laughing at you when you make a claim about something that is totally at odds with what the original material actually says.

So, I'll make it easy for you since you haven't read the bible yet. Just answer the first question then we will come to the rest.

Who carried the cross?

And since you haven't read it yet, I will even give you the references to save you looking it up. Obviously you will find all the details in the gospels. Try:
Matthew 27:32
Mark 15:21
Luke 23:26
John 19:17

So now you have the references, how about you look up what they say and let us know the answer. I say answer, because, as you say, there could not possibly be any contradictions. Could there?

@mandas,

I do not think we'll get an answer from IC.

The bible passages you pointed out to are too embarrassing for any Xtian who asserts that that book is inerrant.

The bible is full of contradictions and above all, extremely immoral demands by Yahwe. There is manslaughter, mass murder, genocide and many, many other atrocities dierectly commanded by the god of those bronze age people.

And Jesus justified all those things when he said that not a iota must be taken away from the old scripture.

When Xtians claim that the bible is full of moral commandments and even the very basis of morality, they are negating all the ghastly things in the book, they are cherry-picking to the extreme.

Our modern world view is a result of the age of enlightenment and most ethical insights were achieved against the fierce resistance of organised religion.

And without the Old Testament, there's no Original Sin for Jesus to be crucified for, nor any reason for anyone else to follow him to remove that (nonexistent without the OT) sin.

Looks like IC has left the building. Must have become too hot for him.

No the temperature down here is just fine. In the upper 50s and lower 60s. Quite nice.

WOW is right. Jesus chose to come here and offer salvation becuase of what happened in Genesis.

So how are you going with your research IC? Read the bible yet?

Jan,

The people who were destroyed were not destroyed for no reason at all. They were wicked and evil and had no hope of ever returning back to God. Sort of what we see here today. Every person is a sinner before God. However, if those nations whom God judged had repented of they following of Satan, He would not have destroyed them. Instead He would have saved them and blessed them. They made their own choices to be destroyed.

Many of the cities and people who were judged were given multiple warning to repent and be saved, but they freely chose to ignore the warnings and kept living in sin. They brought judgement upon themselves.

The fierce resistance of religion? Every human on earth including the most militant atheists have a religion and a God. Fir you your God is your science. it is your idol. It is what you look to for answers and since you put it first in our life, it has become your religion and your God. There is no such thing as opposition to religion in that sense. Your global warming (earth worship) and your evolution (idol worship) is your religion nd it is well organized. The thing you have to do is seperate the false satanic religions from any real religion. Yours is one of satan. It is HE who tricks you and causes your to think as you do - backwards.

Yes I have. have you? Mandas, many ibs say that Jesus was a socialist. What is your thoughts on this. Your repsonse will determine wether or not YOU have actually read the Bible. I am not a gambling man, but if I had to gamble I would give ten trillion dollars to say you think Jesus was a left wing communist. It is how liberals think - backwards.

So since you have read the bible IC, could you answer my question please. Who carried the cross?

"They were wicked and evil and had no hope of ever returning back to God"

Because God killed them, just like he kills 90% of unborn children, pychopathic monster that he is.

@IC,

"The thing you have to do is seperate the false satanic religions from any real religion."

Real religion? You must be joking. Just see what Mark Twain wrote about human beings and religion:

"Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion--several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to happiness and heaven."

Do you really believe in such a thing as satan? Wake up! We are living in the 21st century, not the Dark Ages. Leave your childhood superstitions behind and grow up!

If you believe that your god gave you the abilitiy to use your brain, why don't you put it into practice? If your god was real, they would have made a much better job of making themselves perceptible to intelligent beings.

All that you and followers of any other religion have are old books that all full of contradictions and do not hold up to any severe scrutiny. Only people with a twisted mind would accept those scribblings as "truth".

When you are a catholic you believe that your religion and your god are true, when you are a protestant you believe that your religion and your god are true, when you are a muslim you believe that your religion and your god are true, when you ... etc., etc.

They cannot all be true. All of them are full of logical mistakes, so they neither of them can be completely true, but it is almost certain that all of them are completely false.

I think that Steven Weinberg was right when he said:

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

So please stop insulting our dignity and stop spreading your rubbish all over the internet.

@Wow,

I think you have come across this quote by Richard Dawkins:

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

Everyone who has read the bible must admit, that Dawkins's description fits Yahwe to a t.

jan, your german english is really one big shame

jan, why do you always write "... xxx have come across ..."?? is your english really so primitive that you don't know anything more elegant in comparison to your low-level sub-classes english?

@Wow,

it rather amuses me when a moron like kai (I know, you prefer to call him something else), who has just about enough knowledge to use an online translator, thinks he can correct other people's English.

Poor chap, he suffers from an inferiority complex, which he tries to compensate by boasting about abilities he doesn't possess and never will. And extremely funny when he tries to do so in his Pidgin English. :-)

jan, "it rather amuses me" is "rather" poor english. in addition you have a lot of grammatical troubles in correctly using personal pronomina, because you always mix up "who", "which", "that" and "which", which bothers me a lot. please do me a favor and try to improve your basic german school english.

kai, your English is terrible. "It rather amuses me" is perfectly fine. "Pronomina" isn't even an English word - it's Latin. The word you seem to be looking for is "pronouns". Oh, and "grammatical troubles" is incorrect - it should probably be "grammatical trouble", but even that is a clumsy construction which no native speaker would ever use in this context. You also seem to have some sort of problem with capitalisation.

@Dunc,

you are absolutely right. Kai's command of English is certainly far below standard.

And whenever he tries to be clever, he puts his foot in it. Trying to boast with his grammatical knowledge, he only shows that that is nonexistent. As you pointed out, he does not know the correct terms and what is even worse, he mistakes one term for the other, because "who", "which" and "that" are pronouns alright, but other than he thinks they are relative pronouns and not personal pronouns. :-)

What an idiot that Kai is: Only a fool like him would constantly make a fool of himself :-(

dunc, hahahaha

jan, hahahaha

plain idiots, the two, but no surprise: they are low-intellect agw hysterics, hahahaha. they are just angry ugly climate dwarfs who (not "which" or "that", jan, that what you have to learn) ...

ps: jan, your terrible german school english is utter impertinence

ps2: dunc: i assume you don't know latin, isn't it? should we make a test with you? please translate the following into english: nihil sunt mores aequitoribus substantiae principitis spectavit

jan, again style corrections for you:

you said:
"Trying to boast with his grammatical knowledge"

this is very poor english

you should better say:

"kai always impresses me with his perfect knowledge of the grammar of the english language"

Looks like IC has run away with his tail between his legs. He must have read the bible for the first time and noticed that it is full of contradictions.

I'm imagining something like a 60's TV robot that had conflicting instructions. All his life he has been told that the bible is the literal word of god, and as soon as he notices that it is full of mistakes, smoke started to come out of his head and he spun around in circles saying 'Does not compute!'.

Poor creationist. Don't you feel sorry for them?

"Poor chap, he suffers from an inferiority complex"

Nothing complex about it: He's inferior.

@Jan

Satan is as real as God. Better read you Bible. WHO was it that tricked Eve into partaking of the forbidden fruit? He still tricks people today. The moder forbidden fruit is some of your science idols like evolution and global warming. As long as Satan can keep people believing that there is no God, the more people he takes down to hell with him on judgement day.

The century does not matter. God and satan was real when this earth was created, they are real now, and 999 trillion forevers from now they will still be just a real. Nothing has changed except perception. God does not change. Period.

Richard Dawkins is just a loon who craves attention and cries when people do not give it to him. Mark Twain is irrelevant to any serious conversaion about religion. Apparently dawkin never read the part about where God OFFERED to saved those who would repent. Again, the people chose their own path to destruction., They were given multiple warnings and plenty of chances to turn back, but freely chose not to. Dawkins is an idiot.

Still waiting for an answer from IC.

Who carried the cross?

kai, you said:
"who of you cowards and blatherskites, wow, whirlpool, mandas etc. dares to risk your OWN money to bet that in the next few years there will be a new arctic sea ice minimum, you terrible hypocrites and decadents : RISK YOUR MONEY IN ORDER TO DEMONSTRATE THAT YOU TRY TO STICK TO YOUR HYSTERIC CLIMATE CO2 CATASTROPHE CONVICTION"
and I replied:
" I will gladly take you up on a $10,000US bet that a new record low in the arctic sea ice extent as reported by NSIDC will be set on or before October 2020. You may choose if you prefer that to be a daily reading or a monthly average."
and reminded you of it once already. Clearly you don't believe the crap you write or you would accept what you claim should be easy money. Well no one else does either, so please just go away.

I would love some of that action as well. I will put my $10,000 up against kai, and we will get a neutral party to hold the cash.

mandas,

Who carries the cross?

Well at first Jesus did, then Simon of Cyrene.

Not sure what the point of your aggravating repetative malfunctions are , but there is your answer.

Thanks for your response IC. But as I am a sceptic, I will check the source document to see what it really says:

From John:
19:16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.
19:17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha.
19:18 Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.

Hmmmmmmm - can't see any mention of anyone called Simon. In fact, it specifically says that Jesus carried it himself ("he, bearing his cross...."). Perhaps you are thinking of Matthew:

27:31 And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.
27:32 And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.
27:33 And when they were come unto a place called Golgotha, that is to say, a place of a skull

That's a little confusing. Matthew clearly says that Simon carried it, but John clearly says that Jesus carried it. And neither of them say that there was any sharing going on.

So thanks for your response. But as it isn''t correct, we can't really call it an answer can we? The word I would use is "lie".

Never minf IC. perhaps you will do better with my second question:

What did the two thieves say?

coby, 2020 is too late to get my money from you, as you are maybe already dead. so let's say by 2013 to have a quicker decision and that I get my money from you quicker within reasonable time. agreed?

No kai - it is not agreed.

We either stay with the original terms of the wager, or you apologise for your idiotic statements.

Mandas, you are confused.

Matthew, mark, and Luke all mention Simon of Cyrene.

The common consensus is that Jesus did in fact start out carrying the cross, but due to his massive beatings and loss of blood He was unable to make it all the way. Simon of Cyrene helped.

Matthew 27:32
Mark 15:21
Luke 23:26

Also can you account for the prophecies in the Old Testament about Christ that came true? Isaiah lived roughly 800 years BC yet he accurately predicted the coming of Christ.

http://www.sharefaith.com/guide/Christian-Holidays/old-testament-prophe…

Jesus was carrying His own cross and was unable to finish his journey, then came along Simon of Cyrene.

If this is one of your alleged contradictions, it is a weak one. No contradiction whatsoever. The Romans drafted Simon to carry the cross the rest of the way.

You have probably been window shopping at some left wing anti-God website again. Those who make claims of contradictions becuase they have little else to do than to argue with people.

Wrong! You can't just make shit up and expect people to accept it.

You and all your ilk claim that your book of fairy stories is infallible, and that it is the literal word of your god. Unfortunately, for you, John very specifically states that Jesus carried his own cross, and does not mention anyone called Simon at all.

And that's just one contradiction. Let's move on to the next one in this particular story:

What did the two thieves say?

mandas, shut up, who has asked you? what low class people like you will never understand is that the rich and strong define the conditions, in other words, me and not you. when you accept my rules i decide whether you can be part of the game or not.

as there appear to be here folks with some rudimentary latin:

quod licet iovi non licet bovi (do i have to translate this for you, mandas, you language ignorant?)

i offer now a sea ice (arctic) bet for 2013 (that no record minimum will be seen in 2013) because i do not want to wait until 2020 to get my money from coby who will lose all bets against me.

Let's not move on to anything until you have understood the first one. Really do not care if you do not believe it. I know there are no contradictions and the fact that I destroyed your alleged contradiction angers you. When you accept the answer I gave you for your first alleged contradicion, we will move on the the second.

Jesus carried His own cross until he no longer could. The the Romans got Simon of Cyrene to carry it.

Write it 5,000 times until you can accept it and then we will move on to your next alleged contradiction.

Mandis,

What planet are you originally from? Are you draconian, reptilian, grey, grey-reptile hybrid, or Mantidian?

I think you may be a plant. Answer me this? Do you have a soul from God or is your soul captured via your machine or is it an artifical soul your kind created for healing?

No IC. It is not that I don't believe it. I don't believe anything. I accept evidence.

And you have no evdence for your views on what the bible says. The evidence is quite specific - it does not say what you think. It says the opposite. If you think it says what you claim, provide the quote here for all of us to read. And until or unless you can provide evidence, your viewpoint is just a bunch of meaningless, unsupportable assertions.

And soul? No such thing. I am an animal, just like all the other animals I study. I am no better, no worse. I just evolved differently.

@IC,

"Satan is as real as God."

Full agreement, but other than you think neither exists. Thereis not the tiniest bit of shred to prove the existence of a god, let alone the Christian god.

And about your soul: forget it. There is no such thing. Neurology has clearly shown that consciousness, personality and all the rest are produced by the brain. When the brain stops functioning, all these qualities cease to exist. There is even a fraction of the brain that is responsible for religious feelings or other illusions.

Chemicals (drugs) can strongly alter the way the brain sees things, when parts of the brain are injured the personality - some people call it soul - of a human being can change completely.

Insanity is a malfunction of the brain - no demons involved.

To believe in satan is to believe in a childish fairy tale. If your god was merciful - as you claim they* are - they would not condone such an entity as satan - or do they not have the power to get rid of satan, that "allmighty" god?

You see, your belief and your world view is full of contracdictions, I do not even need the bible to prove you wrong, somple logic suffices.

* I use "they" because it is not clear whether your alleged god is a he or a she or does have any gender at all:

"When god created man, SHE was only practicing." :-)

Your bible even uses the plural when it talks about its god!

BTW, what Christians believe to be extraordinary, i. e., the resurrections, seems to be quite normal to Matthew (ch. 27):

"52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

Strange, very strange!

It's more than that Jan.

If a god were to exist, it would have to be gender neutral - an 'it'. Male and female are biological entities, and are simply two 'halfs' of the one whole. You cannot have male without female. If - as all monotheistic religions claim - their god is male, then it automatically implies that there must also have been at some time or other a female as well. You can then take that further, and show that a single breeding couple is also nonsensical, and there must have been sufficient in the population of the 'god' species to ensure its viability.

Now, you might claim that a single male is all that remains of the species - and that of course is a possibility. But of course, if it is all that is left of a species, then the members of that species can hardly be considered to be omnipotent. Maybe that's what happened to all the other gods mentioned in the old testament. The Abrahamic god was certainly jealous and worried about them - always telling his followers that they had to worship him and not the others.

That's the problem with all these poor deluded fools. They believe the bible is the literal truth, given to man by an all powerful singular deity. But when you check that 'literal truth', it is easy to see that it is full of holes and contradictions. Creationists fill those holes by 'interpreting' the bible, to see things that aren't really there and which they believe 'should' be there. IC's claims about who carried the cross are a perfect case in point.

But of course, the person doing the interpretation and the differences in interpretation between the various religions is the whole reason why we have conflict. Each religion believes their version of the truth is the only real one, and every other faith is wrong and deluded. The largest christian church in the world no longer believes that the bible is the literal word of god, and now believes that it is a collection of fables. They accept evolution and the fact that earth is not the centre of the universe, and believe that AGW is a significant moral and existential threat to humanity. Fundamentalist creationists like IC believe something different.

The difference in beliefs can only be attributed to the personal views and teachings of the leaders of those particular churches - the clergy. And when you base you beliefs, laws, and morals on the directions of a clergy, you have a theocracy. And I would prefer not to live in a theocracy thank you very much.

Mandas, you admit that you are an animal. So, if you go out and kill 50 people and eat their flesh why should you be viewed different than a crocodile or lion that would do the same thing? They are animals too. Why two sets of rules if we are all just animals?

No mandas, I am not animal. I an man. I have a soul created by God. Adam, the first man, had a soul. He was created, not evolved. Jesus was present at creation. How many times in the New Testament does Jesus mention creation? How many times does he mention Adam?

He came to fix what Adam and his wife Eve along broke.

Believe what you want. If you want to be an anima, then sell your home, take off all your clothes and throw away all your possessions and go into the wild and live like an animal. Otherwise, do not state that you are an animal unless you are willing to back it up with actions of animals.

Of all the deluded things I have read from a creationist - and just about everything they write is deluded - that last post by IC would have to be right up there with the best of them.

Kill and eat 50 people because I am an animal huh? My dog is an animal, and I can't remember the last time he killed and ate 50 people. Nor my snake. Not too many antelopes or birds kill and eat people either.

You want me to back up my actions with the actions of animals? I do it every day. I do it every day when I eat and breath. I am a heterotroph (look it up).

And I will say it to you again until you get it. I don't 'believe' anything. I accept evidence. And until and unless you provide any evidence for any of your assertions, they will remain exactly that - evidence free assertions.

"if you go out and kill 50 people and eat their flesh why should you be viewed different than a crocodile or lion that would do the same thing?"

Well, why should that be viewed differently?

"then it automatically implies that there must also have been at some time or other a female as well."

There IS a "Mrs God" in the bible (Old Testament).

"There IS a “Mrs God” in the bible (Old Testament).

I take it you mean Asherah, who most biblical scholars accept was the wife of Yahweh. That's probably true, although all direct mentions of her have been removed from the current biblical canon. However, she is still known in the Hebrew Bible as the Queen of Heaven, and was worshipped alongside Yahweh as two of the principle gods of the Israelites.

That's what is so fascinating and important about history. When you study it you learn about the basis and background for all sorts of things, and you can place current culture and practice into context. .

We also understand the political underpinings of religion and how the practices of religion are bound up in struggles for power and influence. Look no further than the influence of Constantine and the Council of Nicea to understand how that has affected christian doctrine to this day.

Of course, creationists don't understand this. They are so entithetical to knowledge and science that they are blind to anything other than what their clergy tells them. That is why creationist churches oppose education. They don't want people to know the truth - it would jeopardise the power they have over the gullible.

@mandas,

"That is why creationist churches oppose education. They don’t want people to know the truth – it would jeopardise the power they have over the gullible."

That sums it up very nicely. Thank you.

To believe means not to know. Believers make up things as they go along and never mind what discrepancies may arise from their fantasies.

The bible is 100% man-made, it was evenly arbitrarily put together from a host of religious writings of the time, so the bible is a random selection of what people in the past thought about their god.

How arbitrary especially the Chrisitan religion is, is demonstrated by the fact that there are thousands of different denominations, each laying stress on different aspects of what they think the bible says. And each follower of a denomination is convinced that they are the only ones who see things correctly and everybody else is wrong.

However, most people do not take their religion seriously and actually know very little about even the basics of their creed. Unfortunately this makes room for the extremists, who can spread all sorts of nonsense and only non-believers see through their outrageous claims that mock all reason, logic and even plain perception of the world around us.

I am always flabberghasted anew when I have to realise that there still people around who actually believe that Adam and Eve were REAL and not just the result of a feeble and shoddy attempt of explaining the origin of human beings, ergo a mere product of fantasy.

I feel pity for people like IC, who have been brainwashed into believing the most absurd things, but contempt as well, because they constantly refuse to use reason and logic to challenge what they have been made to believe, despite the fact that it deeply contradicts what they could know about the real world.

Well mandas you just go on being a monkey's uncle and accept your little manmade evidence andI will go on believing in what the creator and sustainer of the universe has done.

Yes kill and eat 50 people. Your dog has not killed and eat 50 people becuase it is domesticated. If it were wild it probably would kill and eat people. Other dogs like wolves and such will occassionally attack and kill children )people). However the difference is, your dog is trained and instructed, and domesticated. Your snake has not killed and eat people becuase it again is domesticaed and probably is not large enough to eat someone. If you had a 50 foot anacond with a three foot girth in your home as a pet we might not be having this conversation becuase you might have been eaten by now, and YES anacondas get that big. They can swallow deer and grown men. Ask any tribal elders in the amazon.

So antelopes don;t kill people. Wanna bet? Get one cornered and see what happens. Birds don't attack people? Hmmms. The elusive thunderbird picked up and carry a small child from a field in 1871 in north mississippi. Eyewitnesses have seen birds in Pennsylvania at night on the side of the raod near dead carcasses large enough to carry off a person. If you corner a bald eagle or a buzzard they will attack.

Liberalsalways seem to think the soft little innocent pant eating animals are not dangerous. Some of the most dangerous animals on earth are herbivores. The Black Rhino, wild elephants, Buffalo, Moose, Water Buffalo (Black Death they are called in Africa), etc. So don;t think just becuase an animals is a plant eater that it means you no harm.

You keep looking for your evidence. let me know when you find it. As for me, I don't need your evidence. I already know what I need to know.

If you are looking for evidence of global warming and evolution you probably will not live the 999 trillion millenia that it would take to find out that there is no evidence for either one.

Yeah that's right IC - you don't need no stinking evidence or none of that education. You already know everything!

And thanks for the information about animals. You do know I am a wildlife scientist, right? But what would I know? All my knowledge came from years of university education, working with peers and mentors, and working in the field - collecting evidence and analysing what I and others find. In fact, I am off on Sunday for a month working in the field in Queensland on an endangered species recovery program. My wife is an animal scientist and works with ART - and we will be looking at a surrogacy and cross fostering program using two closely related but separate species. It's fortunate that the two species are still capable of interbreeding, despite their distinct morphological and genotypical differences resulting from their evolutionary divergent paths caused by geographical isolation. Unfortunately, this is not the case for other close relatives who are no longer capable of interbreeding, despite having a common ancestor. Marsupials are fascinating creatures. They are one of three different mammal sub-classes (do you know what the other two are?) and are found almost exclusively in the southern hemisphere (with most in Australia). In fact, of the other two sub-classes of mammals, one exists only in Australia, while there is only one example of the other sub-class which is indigenous to Australia, despite that sub-class being the most common in the world. Evolution is a fascinating thing, don't you think?

And monkey's uncle huh? Nope - but I am an ape and so are my nephews and nieces. So I guess that makes me an ape's uncle. But given that you are an expert on the subject, you would know the difference between a monkey and an ape.

Oh - and you forgot hippopotami, which is one of the biggest killers of people in Africa. None of those herbivores tend to eat people though. See if you can tell me which animal is the biggest killer of humans (hint - it is neither a herbivore or a carnivore).

You've still neglected to say whether this:

“if you go out and kill 50 people and eat their flesh why should you be viewed different than a crocodile or lion that would do the same thing?”

is something you think would or would not happen.

Not sure what animal is the biggest killer of people. Never given it much thought. My guess would be big cats or bears, but I really do not know and could care less.

Apes and monkeys are similar, but are different, but they are NOT human. They have similar physical characteristics, but they lack a soul like humans do. They lack being accountable to their creator.

No evolution is not wonderful. Evolution is a lie.

Sure there are different species or "kinds" of marsupials. A wolf, a coyote, and a cocker spanial are all the same "kind" of animal derived from a canine. Now, canines will nevr be anything other than canines. They will never grow scales, become cold blooded, and become cave dwelling creatures who hunt by sound. Evolution is impossible. You cannot turn one animal into a different kind of animal altogether over time. Now speciation changes and branches of that information break off to fom new species, but all those species are still exactly the same "kind" of animal and always will be. There is no way for nature to change the DNA of a monkey to form a man. That is impossible. There is no way for nature to change the DNA of a reptile into a bird. Not possible.

Reptiles, mammals & marsupials, birds, fish, and man were al created as seperate and distinct creatures in a short period of time.

Evolution does not exist no matter how many bearded old men get angry at the fact that half the population does not believe them.

I am glad you consider yourself an ape. Now go pick some lice and swing around in,a tree like one. I am man, CREATED in the image of God, not ape.

Oh, and for the record. I love animals. Especially with gravy.

Ahhhhh - IC has been watching Kent Hovind videos on youtube. You should always reveal your sources IC. That way we can deal with the original idiot, instead of the mindless parrot.

Evolution is a lie huh? But you said speciation occurs. You do know what the definition of evolution is, right? And you might want to read up on ring species. That's where one 'kind' turns into another 'kind' and can no longer breed with others of it's 'kind'.

Education is a wonderful thing. Pity you never got one.

Oh, and for the record, I have always wondered why an all powerful deity would create a creature in it's own image, but put so many flaws, unecessary parts, and limitations in it's creation. Are you saying that your deity is similarly limited, or that it made a few mistakes in the creation process, or deliberately put flaws in it's creation (and hence did not create it in it's own image)?

Is your god flawed, a liar, or malicious?

Evolution is impossible. You cannot turn one animal into a different kind of animal altogether over time.

Yet it has been seen to happen (check out Helacyton).
Most people who do not accept the theory of evolution are incapable of giving a brief summary of it. Can you?

I am man, CREATED in the image of God, not ape.

I've always been puzzled by this. Why does God need a belly button and why did we get a non-working gene for vitamin C production? Bit of sloppy workmanship there, wasn't there?

Kai, you're an elusive sucker aren't you?

I'm trying to get in on the wagering action about Arctic Ice minumum.

You suggested "...the next few years..." and I've proposed 5 years exactly as the period. Like you I'm disinclined to wait longer, but anything less is hardly a scientific/statistical test of a trend, is it? If you beg to differ, please explain with reference to statistical conventions why you do so.

You referred to a "... new arctic sea ice minimum..." and I have proposed PIOMAS Arctic sea ice as the measure. It's the most objective quantification of the amount of ice, after all. Again, if you disagree, please present a scientific case explaining why. Further, I've given you a huge advantage by not only pegging the wager to breaking the current minimum (your suggestion) of 3.3 thousand km3, but by proposing that it will actually fall below 2.0 thousand km3 within the period I propose. In other words, I'm giving you a 1.3 thousand km3 headstart. That's 40% of the current record minimum set a month or so ago. Can't be fairer than that, short of just giving you the money.

So, when do we start collecting the gold for holding by a third party, in accordance with my terms in the link above?

Still avoiding why you ask someone else if a human killing and eating the flesh of 50 people should be viewed differently or the same as an animal that does so.

"Why does God need a belly button and why did we get a non-working gene for vitamin C production? Bit of sloppy workmanship there, wasn’t there?"

I think it's far worse than that Richard. You would have to wonder why an all powerful deity would have:
- only two arms and two legs. ten fingers and toes.
- two eyes with a very restricted field of vision, only a very limited detectable range in the electromagnetic spectrum (can't see infra-red or ultra-violet light for example, and certainly can't detect x-rays or microwave radiation), no night vision and a blind spot where the optic nerve meets the retina.
- can only detect sound from about 20 - 16,000 Hz,
- no sensors capable of detecting electric or magnetic fields.
- vestigial organs such as the appendix
- hair which is denser in places which are more susceptible to heat loss, but sparse in other places
- sweat glands for thermoregulation
- pain receptors (how can an all powerful deity experience pain? - sounds pretty weak to me)
- expandable lungs for gaseous respiration
- 32 teeth for chewing food - some of which being surplus to requirements and only cause trouble (wisdom teeth)
- separate tubes for food and gaseous exhange
- an anus to allow the excretion of surplus food
-- a penis and testes for reproduction (with who or what?)

I could go on and on, but anyone with the ability to think would get the picture. If we are created in the image of IC's god - it is a pretty piss-weak god.

Richard Simmons,

Why no gene for Vitamin C production eh? Are you serious? If Adam and Eve had not sinned, they would still be young and alive today. When man was first created, he was an eternal being. There was no sickness or death. So God's craftmanship was pretty great. However, man sinned and God cursed man with death and sickness. We were a perfect race of beng incapable of dying, impervious to disease, and eternally young in the beginning. You really should stop doing so many aerobics and read Genesis more often. As for your helacyton gartleri story, nice try. So if evolution is right, this blob of cancer is going to one day become an intelligent being right? Your cancer blob proves nothing except that SIN results in death. Now if sin had never entered the world back in Genesis, cancer would not exist for this blob to have formed in the first place. Besides, so called scientists say that it has been chnaging for the past 50 years. Ok, but it remains still a cancerous blob of tissue, nothing more. It is not going to turn into a 20 stoy tall killer alien with superhuman intelliegence of anything. In 999 trillion millennia it will still be a blob of cancer tissue taken from a woman. it cannot turn itself into anything else.

Mandas, read what I just told aerobics television instructor Richard Simmons there. We were created in His image becuase that is what He chose to do. However, were are still lower in rank than the angels, except for the fallen ones in wich those of us who are saved are higher than they are in rank.

WOW,

Yes a human killing and ating the flesh of other humans is different from an animal doing it. We are NOT animals. We are man, CREATED in the image of God instructed NOT to kill each other. Animals have such instructions and are not accountable to their creator becuase they have no soul and are not godlike beings.

There was a group of "scientists" who one day got tired of God. They thought they knew everything that man could learn from the universe and so one day that had a meeting to discuss telling God that they no longer needed Him.

So, they all met with God and flat out told him that they could make man even better than He had made in the beginning. God accepted their challenge gladly but laid down only one rule, "You have to make man EXACTLY" the same wya that I made him in the beginning" He exclaimed.

"DEAL!" exclaimed the group of scientists. So as one of the scientists reached down to grab a handful of dirt, God suddenly shouted "NO NO NO! Your make your own dirt!".

So we are a perfect race, incapable of dying, and if Adam and Eve couldn't get sick or die, why did they have an immune system? Why did they need to eat, drink or breathe? Surely if they couldn't die, they could go without food, water or air and be perfectly healthy? And if they would remain forever young and couldn't die, surely the world would get a little crowded with all those people being born from being fruitful and multiplying, Indeed, what is the purpose of reproduction if there is no death?

Perhaps you should stop just reading genesis, and give a few seconds thought to what it is saying.

On the subject of Genesis, what was created first - humans or plants and other animals?

So if evolution is right, this blob of cancer is going to one day become an intelligent being right?

No. This one sentence demonstrates that you do not even have a Grade 5 level of understanding of the Theory of Evolution. Besides, it is not just a blob of cancer. You seem to have paid no more attention to a description of Helacyton than you did to the spelling of my name. Or is that your idea of humour? If so, that too belongs back in the school playground.

BTW: We've all heard that anecdote many times. It is stupid.

@IC,

your fundamental flaw is that you take the bible literally. Absolutely hilarious!

How can you be so blind to reality as to believe what the bible says about the beginning of the universe?

Read the first chapter of genesis carefully. Then you will see for yourself that the account of full of logical blunders and stark contradictions.

If you take that nonsense for real, you will believe anything within your religion and dismiss everything that your religious leaders tell you not to accept. And that's the whole idea: gather a number of gullible people around you and then make them part with their money. Alot of self-proclaimed "spiritual leaders" in your country make a good living out of people like you.

"WOW,

Yes a human killing and ating the flesh of other humans is different from an animal doing it. "

In what way? This:

"We are NOT animals."

certainly isn't it. How is it different? A lion eating 50 people is different from a pack of hyenas eating 50 people because one is a lion and one is a group of hyenas. So saying that the difference between us eating people and animals eating people cannot be just "because we're a different species".

And your next sentence begs the question: where do you get the idea we're created?

RCC says that you are eating the flesh and blood (literally) of Jesus Christ in communion. Indeed it is from the literal word of the bible he appears in that they do this: it was DEMANDED of them.

Cannibals.

Talking of which, there were many races who were cannibals.

So it happens.

But why do you blather on and on about caniballism? Secret passion of yours?

" instructed NOT to kill each other"

Exodus 32:27
Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side ... and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.

Communion is symbolic of Christ's broekn body. His sacrifice for us. Apparently you have never listend through preaching r have never been to church at all. If you dd go didn't pay much attention and now you get it all wrong.

I get the idea that we were created from the fact that were were created as Genesis said we were. if were not created, then please explain in specific details how life began. Strt before the big band and work your way up five minutes ago. Please explain in very specific detail how every germ was formed and every living organism throughout the vast universe just appeared all by itself from nothing. This I have to hear ...

Jan,

If I were you I would lay off the whole "gather a number of gullible people around you and then make them part with their money. Alot of self-proclaimed “spiritual leaders” in your country make a good living out of people like you." that you said. Seems like you are one of the gullibel people who believe in man made-up climate change. You know, quite a few of your false prophet leaders like Al Gore have profited very well from people like you.

Mandas,

Ah, the old population control gambit game. I love it. You should apply for a job in the UN making sure people have only one child and that mandatory abortion and sterilization is enacted.To heck wth freedom. it's over rated right? Too many people eh? Angels have not physical bodies. They do not die. They do not thirst. They do not hunger or get sick, yet the Bible says that heaven has plenty of fresh water, fruit, and all kinds of food. DEATH, sickness, and disease is a curse upon man as a result of sin. There was no death or sickness on earth before that event.

Richard Simmons,

So, you do admit that evolution is a mere theory? It seems like I have got the best of you when you resort to the school playground analysis. Changing from one living thing completely into another IS the theory of evolution. Gigantic terrible lizards turning into tiny birds over time? How is THAT not the same thing? Impossible.

@IC,

"So, you do admit that evolution is a mere theory? "

A MERE theory?

Not sure who this character is, but I think evolution passed his kind by a long time ago. He is a unique species of his own.

@IC,

A MERE theory?

So you admit that you haven't got the foggiest idea of what the word theory means in science!

A theory is a the best possible explanation for observed facts and incorporates the whole body of evidence.

A MERE theory is an oxymoron and this expression is typically used by people who don't know what they are talking about.

"Angels have not physical bodies."

Are you an expert on angels? Where have you got your "knowledge" from? Angels not only do not have physical bodies, they have no existence at all. Angels are a mere product of fantasy.

"His sacrifice for us."

This one really beats me. Are you serious. You are saying as much as that the "holy trinity" committed suicide in one of its forms so it could forgive people for original sin, committed by Adam and Eve - characters that never actually lived? How mad is that?

If your god was real and "he" really wanted to forgive people, could "he" not ist have forgiven them?

Why did "he" have to have one third of his entity destroyed so people could be rid of their sins? When you really think about that, don't you see for yourself that it does not make the tiniest bit of sense?

The real story is the other way around: a wandering priest was crucified justlike thousands of other people before and after him and his followers then made up a whole bunch of stories of what a miraculous person he had been and why it was part of a heavenly plan that he had to end his life on the cross.

The real Jesus - if he existed at all - never performed any miracles. What the younger books of the bible say about them are all yarns invented long after his death in order to glamourise him and trick people into believing in him. That's all there is to it and all that ever will be to it. Amen!

What business do you have to talk about Global Warming? You are totally ignorant of things scientific as you proved beyond any doubt by your silly use of the word "theory". Who are you to judge other people who have formed an opinion on a scientific issue that is based on observable facts?

Climate change is real and it is to a good deal caused by us human beings.

Climate denial is also real and fact is that climate deniers are either extremely stupid and gullible or have their pockets lined by th energy industry. Not difficult to guess which group you belong to.

Yes Jan, a MERE theory. Only a man made idea. A very poor one at that.

"Communion is symbolic of Christ’s broekn body."

Nope, RCC it IS Christ's body. It changes in the blessing TO BE HIS ACTUAL FLESH.

"I get the idea that we were created from the fact that were were created as Genesis said we were"

Which version? There are two incompatible versions there.

There are also the people of Nod and there's also the women Cain and Abel married who weren't created by God.

But basically the problem is that the book doesn't explain how you got created. It just says it is.

Well, if you're going to believe a book, then believe on on Evolutionary Biology.

"and every living organism throughout the vast universe just appeared all by itself from nothing. This I have to hear … "

You don't ask your bible to give you that detail.

"So, you do admit that evolution is a mere theory?"

Gravity is a theory.

Go jump off a tall building.

I prefer not to jump off of tall buildings. The fall will not kill you, the sudden stop will.

Graviton are a theory too. String theory anyone?

I will never believe in evolutionary biology becuase it is a false science preached by false teachers.

We might as well end this discussion becuase you are not ever going to believe in God, that is, until judgement day when you stand before Him and have to give an account of yourself and your beliefs. And I will never believe in your evolution or man made-up climate change/population control schemes. I do not think either side is getting anywhere here. You will never convince me of your false science and I will never convince you of creation. So why bother?

"The fall will not kill you, the sudden stop will."

The fall is from gravity, which is only a theory.

But, no, you're a chickenshit. Buck buck buck bkaaawk!

Your god doesn't exist and you know it, so are trying to hold of the crapping fear by being an arsehole.

IC: You have come up with another comment consisting of a mishmash of garbled nonsense.

As Wow says, RCs claim that consecrated wine and wafers are literally Christ's blood and flesh. Ludicrous, isn't it?

Please explain in very specific detail how every germ was formed and every living organism throughout the vast universe just appeared all by itself from nothing.

I will, once you have described how to drive from New York to San Fransisco, including the pressure applied to the accelerator and brake at all times and the exact angle through with the steering has to be turned.

. . . your false prophet leaders like Al Gore . . .

I've asked denialists before and never had an answer, so I'll ask you. Why do you have a fixation on Al Gore? By the time Al Gore graduated from college, I'd seen enough evidence to convince me that global warming was very likely. Gore is not a leader in climate change. He is a follower of science and an effective publicist but has never contributed to the science of the subject.

So, you do admit that evolution is a mere theory?

Virtually every sentence you write confirms that you know essentially nothing of science. A theory is a well-tested explanation for a body of facts and observations, that enables predictions to be made. It is not a guess or speculation.

Changing from one living thing completely into another IS the theory of evolution.

Wrong. What you described, with some clarification, might pass as the most elementary description possible of evolution, but it is emphatically not a theory, which describes how populations of organisms change over time. BTW, in fact, there have been several theories of evolution, with the one now commonly called 'the Theory of Evolution' owing its genesis to the thoughts of Darwin and Wallace. Darwin's grandfather and Lamarck both produced earlier theories of evolution.

Gigantic terrible lizards turning into tiny birds over time? How is THAT not the same thing? Impossible.

Why? How does an organism know that it has diverged as far as is permitted from the stock type and that it must change no further? Could you give an example of a couple of stock types with the limits to the variation that is permitted?

We might as well end this discussion becuase you are not ever going to believe in God,

What has a belief in God to do with an acceptance of the theory of evolution? There are many Christians (and people of other faiths) who accept both. Check out the views of the RC and Anglican churches, for example.

What has a belief in God to do with an acceptance of the theory of evolution?

You are kidding I hope. Why would anyone choose to worship a God who cannot speak things into existence? Those so called churches you speak of have a name. They are apostates. There are also churches that accept homosexuality as normal when the Bible clearly teaches that it is a sin. They might as well endorse adultery,murder,and greed as normal too.

Al Gore is the official spokesperson for man made-up climate change. he profits from it and passes his pagan earth worship teachings on to others. Man made global climate change is a joke. Only God is control of climate. After all He created it and i figure anyone who can speak the universe into existance also has the power to control climate.

My God does exist. Unfortunately for you WOW, your God is satan and for that alone both of you will share the same lake of fire. You deny it now, but you will not deny it on judgement day. You will beg for mercy, but it will be too late. You will seek death, but you will be immortal and death will not come. Immortal and yet burned and tortured for all eternity becuase you choose to follow the path of evil. What a loss.

What has a belief in God to do with an acceptance of the theory of evolution?

You are kidding I hope.

I see you are as ignorant about religion as you are about science.

There are also churches that accept homosexuality as normal when the Bible clearly teaches that it is a sin.

It also teaches that eating lobster and cheeseburgers is a sin, as well as praying in public (but keeping slaves is OK). Are you pressing for these to be made illegal, too?

Al Gore is the official spokesperson for man made-up climate change.

Where did you find this rubbish?

After all He created it and i figure anyone who can speak the universe into existance also has the power to control climate.

To quote a favourite saying of creationists, 'How do you know. Were you there?' All the evidence is that Genesis was dreamed up by a bunch of guys sitting around a campfire, taking a creation myth from upland goat herders and another from lowland marsh dwellers and smodging the two together, which is why Genesis contains two completely different stories of creation.

You will seek death, but you will be immortal and death will not come. Immortal and yet burned and tortured for all eternity becuase you choose to follow the path of evil.

And you consider this to be the will of a benevolent god? Only a mentally sick person could contemplate this with equanimity.

@IC,

"I will never believe in evolutionary biology"

No one is ever asked to "believe" in evolution. It is not a matter of faith, rather it is the outcome of diligent and honest research.

The Question is, whether YOU are willing to accept the facts that are clearly there for everyone to be seen or whether YOU prefer to sacrifice honest thinking for the believe in an old book that is full of contradictions and outrageous crimes ordered by a jealous god, whose greatest fear is that people might not accept his authority and worship some of the other gods around.

"You will seek death, but you will be immortal and death will not come. Immortal and yet burned and tortured for all eternity becuase you choose to follow the path of evil.

YES! That sums it up nicely. You are wallowing in the idea that people who do not agree with your childish belief will suffer eternally while YOU and your ilk will experience never-ending bliss. Very gracious of you!

Richard Simons is right: those are the musings of a sick mind.

Hell, IC isn't even able to accept the fact that his bible can't be the word of god.

Not just because his god doesn't exist, but because it can't be written by the creator of the universe.

He's now left without a place of "specialness" and had only value to himself from that religion.

Hence he'll refuse to leave it.

His life has NOTHING ELSE in it. Pathetic. Isn't it.

"Richard Simons is right: those are the musings of a sick mind."

More, anything bad that happens to other people is "God's Will" and is right, but anything bad that happens to him is bad and he wants a doctor/lawyer/government to make it all go away.

@Wow,

provided Obama wins the elections and the outcome is partly due to Sandy, it'll be interesting to see if those right-wing evangelists come to the conclusion that everybody who voted for Robme actually acted against the will of their god.

Richard, I am not mentally ill or defective. It will be too late for you when you realize how wrong you are. You can argue all you want but on judgement day, your arguments will no longer be an excuse and it will be too late. Evolution can neer be accepted by a real church. It can be accpeted by apostates.

Jan,

"musings of a sick mind"? Really. Please take that up with John who prophesied and wrote the book of revelelation and take it up with Jesus as well. I did not make it up, it was forteold centuries ago. If you don;t like it don;t take it up with me, I'm only the messenger.

And what do you mean "if" Obama wins? He is definitely going to win. Evil usually triumphs temporarily. Of course he is going to win. There is no way he will not win.

Romney is not my choice for president. I can't stand Obama and his pro muslim anti american rhetoric and his anti Biblical crap either. I am not sure exactly what he is. Is he atheist? Muslim? He says he is pro Israel, but that is just to get Jewish votes. His actions show otherwise.

Romney is a nut. I do not like him at all, but i have little choice other than to vote for him. It's either the mormon big mouth or the muslim goofball for president. I guess I'll vote mormon bigmouth. it's the closest thing to a traditional American president we have to vote for at this time.

@IC,

"I guess I’ll vote mormon bigmouth. .

So you are going to vote against the will of your god? Did he not send the hurricane so that Obama would have a better chance of winning the election? Or is he no longer interested in the fate of "His own people"?

Do you think that the "creator of the universe" will forsake his most ardent adherers? Can you not trust him any longer? I thought you knew his plan.

Evolution can neer be accepted by a real church. It can be accpeted by apostates.

Aah! The 'no true Christians except those who agree with me' argument.

I can’t stand Obama and his pro muslim anti american rhetoric

Obama? Muslim? The president who has ordered illegal drone strikes that have killed hundreds of Muslim civilians in Pakistan? Anti-American? You truly are off your trolley.

It also teaches that eating lobster and cheeseburgers is a sin, as well as praying in public (but keeping slaves is OK). Are you pressing for these to be made illegal, too?

You did not answer this. Are you avoiding the question or do you need your pastor to tell you what you think about it?

BTW: Were Adam and Eve both created on the sixth day, after the animals, or was Adam created on the first day, then placed in the Garden of Eden created for him, followed by the animals and lastly by Eve?

"Please take that up with John who prophesied and wrote the book of revelelation and take it up with Jesus as well."

Neither existing, though, any more than Dumbledore or Gollum.

" I did not make it up, it was forteold centuries ago."

You keep gloating over a fiction.

Inasnity: doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different outcome.

And wasn't Adam offered the beasts to bugger first, but he didn't like the idea and God made Eve to give him an alternative to bestiality?

Doesn't that mean bestiality was God's intent all along?

Baaa!

wow, i hope you are no pervert.

Kai, sounds like he is a pervert. Only liberals think like that. backwards and evil as always.

Jan,

Sandy was a hurricane. Looks like Al Gore, the father of man made-up global warming sent it. Perhaps Obama ordered HAARP to create it just in the nick of time? I do wonder how FEMA came up with so many RFID tags for al those displaced people so shortly, yet could not come up with bottled water that quickly for the same people. Perhaps tracking people is more important than feeding them? Aaron Dykes did a wonderful story about the RFID tags by FEMA today.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/new-jersey-contracted-rfid-evacuee-tracking…

I doubt if it is the will of God to vote for a person who denies God exists in almost every platform he has performed on. He ignores the motto "In God We TRust". He refuses to take part in any National Day of Prayer events, and even intervened in the Mt. Soledad cross scheme. So, why would God want someone who ignores him and defies him to be president? Perhaps it is the will of Allah for him to president eh?

Oh and for the record, msulims kill other muslims all the time. Sunni and Shite muslims do have wars with each other. Both have terror organizations, but sometimes ignore their differences and come together to fight against us instead. They when we leave, they go back to killing each other, so your argument fails about Obama and his drone strikes. besides the CIA runs most of those strikes, not the president.

It was funny that a texan shot a police drone down over the summer though. That was great. We will probably see alot more of that in the future as goverment monitors and tracks our every move. Some people will just not tolerate such acts of aggression and illegal spying.

No, unlike Lot, I didn't get shagged by my daughters.

Unlike Cain, I didn't shag my mother (either that or there are a pile of humans that God didn't make. Or Cain and everyone else is a half-breed).

Look, just because your hero wanted people to shag animals doesn't mean everyone you don't like a pervert for not shagging animals like your God wanted.

Mostly because the bible is a work of fiction and your god doesn't exist.

PS kwai-boy, managed to save up ten grand for your bet from your pocket money yet?

Christians kill all the time IC. Indeed two godbotherers started a war and think that it is fine because God will judge them if they're wrong.

That's how religion makes people do evil.

@IC,

"I doubt if it is the will of God to vote for a person who denies God exists in almost every platform he has performed on."

Then why did your god send the hurricane that undoubtedly will help Obama win the election? (In less than 48 hours we will know the outcome.)

So again: if Obama wins you must admit that it was your god who helped him win, otherwise it would not have sent Sandy.

You said so yourself: "Man made global climate change is a joke. Only God is control of climate."

Since climate is the sum of all weather over a longer period of time (normally 30 years), your god can only crontrol the climate by controlling the weather. Thus it must have been part of the plan to help Obama by sending Sandy (at least, according to your "logic").

Obama wins --> your god helped him win.

If you do not vote for Obama, you will commit a sin against your god, because it clearly wants Obama to win.

And if Obama does win, even if it wasn't caused by the Hurricane, then it MUST be that God WANTS Obama as President of the USA.

Heck, didn't God want Obama to win last time?

@Wow,

on second thought, you're right. Whoever wins the election, it's an act of god, or more precisely of IC's god, because that probably differs from most other gods that people make up.

And whoever votes on the losing side, has diosobeyed that god's will, thus has become a sinner. Simple logic. isn''t it? :-)

BTW, an interesting article by Business Week:

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-11-01/its-global-warming-stup…

I wonder f IC is aware that more and more people abandon his silly beliefs? On climate AND on religion!

"Obama wins –> your god helped him win."

My God also gave Satan PERMISSION to torture Job. Remember that story? That's right. The demon who tells you about evolution and socialism is the same demon who has to get permission from his own creator in order to tempt you with your nonsense. Looks like My God is still in control after all.

Yes Jan, people are bound to abandon their beliefs. That describes the end times very well. More and more apostates and non believers and more evil among men. They trade their faith for a lie and lose their soul to hellfire. And your point of these madmen who trade their faith and soul for material matters would be ...... ?

Just becuase some business magazine prints stuff about man made-up global warming doe snot make it true. How many times has National Pornographic produces issues that deal with evolution. Doesn't make it true!

If you really want to tie in the end times prophecies with modern day global warming paganism, I recommend the book called The Global Warming Deception by the late Grant Jeffrey.

Don't worry Jan. I'll just point my orgone blaster in your direction and you will melt.

Kai.

I'm still waiting for your formal acceptance of my wager.

Please do say yes - my circumstances have been very fortunate of late, and I'm keen to use ounces as the currency, rather than half ounces.

If you are compelled to decline my enthusiastic offer to accept your original invitation to bet, please provide your reasons for doing so. Note - I will cheerfully accept cowardice and blatherskittishness as valid reasons. I will also accept that such are an explicit admission that you know that you are wrong to deny human-caused climate change.

Tell me, Insufficient Combatant, does God want his priests to abuse helpless children on sacred ground, on church time?

Also, can you direct me to the evidence that demonstrates that prayer has any effect over randomness?

Please.

No one is wrong to deny man made-up global cooling, global warming, global climate change. Whatever the name you are calling it now. It does not exist. it is only used to fund global governance and for that alone everyone involved should be banished from civilization and forced to live naked in a tropical climate such as Siberia.

You really should read what Maurice L. Newman ha to say about this fraud that the left wing is running. I move that someone prosecute the UN, Al Gore, and the EPA for fraud and defund all of them on their way to prison - refferably in Yemen when they will not recieve a warm welcome of inviting accomodations.

What is it about fundamentalist religiosity and low intellect/poor education that seems to predispose folk to excessive aggression and belligerence, along with paranoid fantasies and a propensity from selfishness? Not to mention an overweening lack of discernment and an absence of any ability in critical analysis...

What is it about fundamentalist left wingery that projects a vast inheritance of general propencity to the vast age of galactic nebulizor moon force protocol banana peels with evolving monkeys into professors and an enhanced image of Gorish perplexity to weather modification by evolved ape like creatures in a state of floridated bliss?

I can speak just like Bernard now.

Guys, I cannot believe you are still arguing with insufficient combatant. He's referred to prisonplanet and now numerologist Grant Jeffrey. He's so deep into the conspiracy thinking, I am not surprised he's also deep into religious nuttery. He needs it to be able to live with his paranoid delusions.

Marco.

Prisonplanet?

I had no idea that IC was so ill.

Your case rests.

the worst idiotic ill-mannered creationists in history are the low-intelligence agw church members because these stupids think they can create climate, hahahaha

I see that you're still steadfastly avoiding my wager Kai

How does it feel to be a cowardly blatherskite?

bernard, i don't know, but you certainly do, since you are a poor unermployed gambling addict without any serious background. what you completey misunderstand is that you as the poor underdog are not qualified to dictate any conditions. you can only get what is nicely given to you, not more. first of all you have to learn what respect towards the superior means, since you are lacking this character quality completely.

yup, kai knows nothing.

I wonder if this arsehole is whiney neil graig with a different jumper on.

Hey, child, why did you offer THREE TIMES (with 180 grand and 10 grand) ti gamble?

Are you not only a snide little shite of about 12 years age, but a lying bastard too without any courage?

Yup, that seems about right.

"My God also gave Satan PERMISSION to torture Job."

Odd that.

So you admit that god is a nasty little shite in your fantasy book?

Kai.

I am fully and gainfully employed.

I have more tertiary qualifications than you have thumbs and toes.

I do not gamble. I'm quite boring that way.

In fact my proferred wager with you is not a gamble for me, and you know this - which is why you are so chicken-shit scared to take it on.

Remember as well that you challenged us to bet with you, and that gives me, Coby, and anyone else willing to call your bluff the right to dictate terms. Heck, I even gave you a huge headstart over your own original starting point.

And still you wriggle away like the yellow-bellied, lily-livered coward that you are. All talk and no action.

And as these are your defining characteristics, I willingly bow to your total superiority in this regard...

@Wow,

"“My God also gave Satan PERMISSION to torture Job.”

Odd that"

Yes, really queer, but at least IC admits that he has got his very own special god that differs from any other gods people believe in, and a very nasty one at that.

The story of Job has always puzzled me: The all-knowing Jahwe, who is supposed to know past, present AND future, engages in a wager with the devil.

A bit unfair, because he already knows the outcome, but also extremely pervert, because he kills dozens of people just for the sake of a wager! The REAL devil in the story is Yahwe, not satan. Job should have kicked him in the arse when he found out about the wager and so should everyone else who learns about the background of the story.

As Dawkins said: " ... the most unpleasant character in all fiction ..."

No kai, Bernard is a stupid canadian. He hates Prison Planet but loves the ever so truthful Huff and Puff Post and MSLSD with Chris the Crank Matthews. .

Jan, it was not a wager. Satan is evil and you are influenced by his minions. Dawkins was just another possum herder who sniffed to many possum holes and got high off the dung fumes. The most unpleasant character these days is Chris Matthews. The second most unpleasant is Dawkins for his hateful racist remarks. He was a racist and a fearmonger and probably a whoremonger as well.

Job was a good man, but Satan though he could turn Job against God. he tried every dity trick in the book from death of his family to serious illness, yet Job never turned his back on God. Satan lost. Eventually here on earth Job as blessed with far more than he had to start with includinga new family. Now in heaven he has both families and even more rewards for faithfulness. The fact is Satan had to actually ask permission to do these things which proves that he is not in control of anything and anyone who does not follow God is not in control as well. God also gave a warning unto Satan telling him that he could tempt Job in various ways, but he order Satan to not take Job's life. Guess what? Old evil grin knew his place and obeyed. Eventually this character will be bound in shackles for 1000 years before being eternally tortured in a lake of fie with all those who also choose to rebel against their Creator - that is, the same Creator Obama puposefully left out of many of his speeches faily to recognize that God, not government , has the authority to give human rights.

Yes Marco, I read Grant Jeffrey. I realize he is above your level of comprehension, but those of us who understand how the universe works can relate to his work. Yes i read Prison Planet. The reason? Becuase other so called new netowrks refuse to cover real news. Though Fox does a pretty good job of it, but others suck at it. If you don't like it don't read it. You stick to your Fidel Castro newspapers and websites and I'll stick to the ones run by free individual sovereign citizens. Huffington Post is a commie run site. Anything posted there should be immediately disqualified as news. Might as well be reading a Media Matter blog post.

Actually Dawkins is a rather unpleasant character himself.

Job was rewarded for his faithfulness and Satan will later be eternally tortured for his rebellion and those who follow him on ths earth will also follow him into eternal torment as well.

Dawkins, like many hateful liberals do not understand God or the Bible. The lack understanding of reward, obedience, faithfulness, and punishment. The same thing goes for economic issues. Reward and risk are non concepts to liberals. I wonder if they never punish their children we they do something wrong?

Bernard evidently lacks the intelligence (Candian?)to understand that the Huff and Puff post is not the only "news" website around. There are others out there.

Marco, do me a favor and go find Polo.

Now with the election over, Kai is having fits and keeps banging his head on the wall, because his beloved Robme has lost. :-)

As a European I am quite content with the outcome. Robme as president would have been a disaster not only for the overwhelming part of the US population but also for the rest of the world.

This world is too complex for religious nutcases like Robme, we need people who can view problems realistically and are not blinded by their ideology.

Bernard is a stupid canadian.

No, I'm not.

But if I were, I'd be proud of it.

I'm still not sure whether you're just a miserable poe, but it's worth noting that it was the rantings of folk exactly like you that convinced me as a primary school boy that the Christian fundamentalist religion I'd been taught from day dot had its head up its arse, and that science was a far superior rational avenue for understanding the world. You simply confirm for me that my seven year old self had it pegged from the start.

On the matter of science, how do you square the eternal damnation in lakes of fire with the second law of thermodynamics? I don't care whether you're just a poe or if you're really a god-botherer, I am curious to watch the scotomatic Gordian knotting of your irrationalisation.

"Actually Dawkins is a rather unpleasant character himself. "

Well if you define "unpleasant" as "won't let me browbeat people who don't believe in my fairy tale", I suppose.

But he's never tortured someone for even one minute.

So a far far better person than your god figure.

Jan,

Not blinded by ideology? Seriously? Obumbles represents the european marxist ideology of evil. He is all for stealing people's money to redistribute it to others. He is a for "carbon tax" and other silly superstitions hat deal with man made-up global warming schemes as well as gay so called "marriage" and a host of other issues he has got all wrong. Of course he won. Natually blacks would vote for him, so he had that demogrpahic in the bag without even campaigning for it. Next come latinos. Now traditionally latinos are catholic and usually vote against gay marriage issues and sometimes again abortion, yet they vote for people who represent the opposote of the views. Figure that one out. Next come young people. Of course silly giggly little 18 year kids are going to vote for Obama becuase its the popular thing to do. many times young kids like the ones who voted yesterday will wake up when they enter the real world and by the time they turn 35, they look back on their life of liberalism and think WTF was I thinking. When I was in high school I was more liberal, but after college when I started life in the real world I woke up. I am now a full fledged neo con and proud of it.

The next election must have one thing. The church has to be present. I advocate that churches have to start firing ministers who water down their messages. We are losing youth becuase of watered down sermons. We need our churches to take the message of salvation and good versus evil serious enough that the minister in the pulpit will not regret stepping on toes and insulting people in the congregation. We are going to have to get rid of this modern day watered down chruch stuff and return to the old ways of preaching and soul winning. During the next four years Republicans need to identify themselves with latinos. It is possible that Republicans can win the latino vote by a majority if we can get lationos to identify with us ona religious and moral level. Repulicans an latinos both see the same religious views and we need to capitalize on that fact and get the latinos to see the democratic party as the party of homosexual sin, fornication, drug abuse, lazy hippie lifestyles, pro drugs, and baby killers. We will need to get religious catholic latinos to see the democratic party as the opposition of Biblical morality. If the Baptists can team up with catholics and creationists can get involved, it and be done and we have four years to work on it.

Oh and the fact that you are european is not shocking. I just wish european policies would stay in europe and stay out of here. We are, or were at one time, a free sovereign nation. After last night, we will have to see how it goes. The only message I have to americans who love euorpean ideals so much is for them to pack up and move there and stop changing things for the worst.

I do not know where exactly you are, but the fact that Europe has abandoned God and accepted Islam is shocking and disturbing. A warning: Sharia law will come to europe and an all out jihad will happen if you continue down your path. Islamic extremists are acalling for a global caliphate and europe is first on the list. They are assmebling their one large middle eastern nation as we speak. They already have Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Tunisia, Sudan, Yemen, Libya, and soon Syria. All they need are a few more leaders ousted and they can form one large Islamist caliphate country. Once thye have accomplished this eurpope will be helpless against their onslaught. Europe has no money and few troops and citizens have relatively no way of defending themselves due to euro gun grabber goobers there.

----

Wow,

Every time dawkins opened his mouth or went out into the public it was considered torture to some.

Sorry some nillweekd deleted me again. But then again, that's to be expected by you kind of people.

Dawkins was an idiot. Just him ging into public was considered torture to many.

I do not have a God figure. He has commanded that figures and idols be destroyed.

No one has deleted anything you have written.

If you would stick to just one fake email address, you would not keep going into the moderation queue.

Sorry. I suffer from a loss of identity. Sometimes I transform into a 12 foot tall albino reptilian with wings. Then sometimes I am normal.

I suffer from a loss of identity. Sometimes I transform into a 12 foot tall albino reptilian with wings. Then sometimes I am normal.

Given your bizarre paleolithic superstitions and red-neck bigotries I'd say the closest that you ever approach to normal is when you transform into a 12 foot tall albino reptilian with wings.

@IC,

your view of European political reality is grossly distorted. The European Union consists of 25 countries, each of them having an independent government, covering a wide range of the political spectrum, but none of them have an extremist stance (otherwise they coudn't be member countries).

Other than the USA no country is tolerated that is in fvour of capital punishment, that barbaric legacy of ancient despotism and of course "biblical thinking".

If you and your ilk had your way, the USA would be marching straight back into the Dark Ages.

Your understanding of the real world is next to nothing, which is illustrated by your admission that you are a neo con (and pour of it). Neoconservatism is the most backward of all political idelogies, There is no future in it.

I take it that you are also a supporter of the Tea Party that bunch of political clowns who make your country the laughing stock of the rest of the democratic world.

You should not be proud, you ought to be ashamed of yourself, especially because of your religious extremism!

How dare you claim that you have "woken up to the real world", when you believe such utter nonsense that the unsiverse is only a few thousand years old and that fictional characters like Adam and Eve were real people?

You have not woken up, you are still fast asleep in your preposterously perverted religious dream that keeps you from perceiving the world in all its beauty and possibilities.

jan, complete bullshit, as always with you

Well said, Jan.

I guess God wanted Obama to win, then.

"Every time dawkins opened his mouth or went out into the public it was considered torture to some."

Yes, fools say that to people who don't put up with fools all the time.

He treats your fantasies with the scorn they deserve.

Because you have no sense of self, this is a constant harrowing pain for you.

Boo hoo, cry me a river, baby-boy.

@Wow,

since Kai does not agree with my giving IC an earful, I am convinced that he is also one of these religious idiots who think that creationism is the best explanation of the world around us. Just shows, how distant these dullards are from reality.

Kai is particularly unpleasnt because he combines extreme ignorance with a very foulmouthed diction.

heh
heh
heh

he said "dicktion"

heh
heh
heh

(dropping to kai level)

@Wow,

"(dropping to kai level)"

Be careful you don't get hurt. Dropping to kai's level means going down a very steep cliff. :-)

Jan,

Yes I am a tea party conservaive and who gives a crap about what the rest of the uncivilized world thinks about it? We tea partiers are in the world but we are not world citizens, we are sovereign individuals who happen to agree on core issue that are being destroyed by evil satanic influences. There is no future in liberalism and sin and evil either unless you count the eternal lake of fire as apossible future scenario. Capital punishment? Seriously? So, I suppose the uropean method of dealing with criminals is to reward them? Give them room service and a warm glass of milk with cookies, maybe a nice porno magazine? Not here buddy. In some states if you commit a crime you actually get punished for that crime. If you don't like it, move from that state. You should be ashamed of your self for your anti-religious left wing extremism. Your views and that of fidel castro are not so far apart. It is DICKtators like Che the mass murderer and rapist, Castro, Chavez, Stalin, and others who really scare people. Now you are adopting those same policies and wonder why people give you a hard time. Also, you did NOT give me an earful. You do not have the intelligence or authority to do so. I am a sovereign individual. You do not have the authority to have any influence over me with left wing nuttery. What you say to me goes in one ear and right out the other without the slightest decrease in velocity or without ebing processed. You can say whatever you want. It will not do you any good. I will not conform to you, your New World Order, your global warming pagan cult, or anything or anyone else. I was created by God. I am sovereign man who rules over the creation given authority by the Cteator and you or anyone else on this planet or universe has any authority over me whatsoever. I will not conform.

Bernard. Thank you for the comment. next time I turn into a 12 foot tall reptilian with wing I will get in my flying saucer and abduct you and perform anal probing on you. It should be a service well like since you are pro gayism and sodomy. I guess that's what we get when we let canadians ansd europeans infuence our culture. I would move except that the last free nation on earth to move to just got killed off by the same people who run all the other screwed up countries. Nowhere else to go. Well there is still Agartha, but due to cold weather, insufficient funds and a lack of group support, I will have most difficulty finding the place without getting captured or killed. Very few ever find it and half of those never make it back to tell the story.

WOW,

Yeah the feeling is mutual. I treat Dawkin's wacked out drug inhalation fantasies the same way. I get it now. Evolution wasn't dreamed up until the bearded turtle herder darwin was high. Everytime he got high or drunk he envisioned people as apes, confused it with reality, and the wrote a book about it that would be taken seriously for decades. By the way, darwin and his fancy childrens book is not longer valid or taken seriously by anyone but liberals. Sure there are some church members who sort of believe it, but they haven't woke up yet. That or their former years of being a liberal were spent getting high and saying "peace" so much that it fried their brain and they are now not able to recognize truth from fiction. Dawkins is a idiot. I wonder if he was canadian? Alot of missing brain cells there to be american. I wonder if he lived in a zone where fluoride was in the water? I have noticed that in larger cities where fluoride is in the water, liberalism abounds, but outside of theh fluoride zone, conservatives prevail. I wonder if there is a connection. I guess Ann Coulter was right. It is something in the water making people crazy.

I deny evolution.
I deny man made-up global warming
I deny American global warming (AWG)

I DEFY the UN, world governance, liberals, canadians, and the devil. Everything else I accept. Well, except hoot owl pie which tastes horrible.

And your denial means nothing to reality.

Deny the car rushing down the street toward you and it won't give a shit.

PS your tinfoil hat needs replacing. New world order indeed...!

@IC

"What you say to me goes in one ear and right out the other without the slightest decrease in velocity or without ebing processed."

I'm not suprised because there is nothing in between that could slow it down or even stop it for processing.

You know nothing at all, do you?

Just for your information:

Richard Dawkins is a British citzen and still alive and well ("WAS Canadian"?).

The 'A' in AGW does not stand for "American" but for anthropogenic, i. e., man-made, Global Warming.

"American" Global is an oxymoron. Something that is American cannot be global at the same time, but stupid people like you do not even understand their own language, let alone anything else.

wow and jan, didn't you really recognize how infinitely inferior you are regarding intelligence, wisdom, dignity, knowledge, culture and all other core values of a civilized citizen in comparison to IC

unfriendly regards

kai

Remember, Jan, that IC is considered to be the same crackpot who calls EVERYONE who he claims wrong "a canadian".

Nobody knows why.

don't worry, kai.

I'll pray for you.

wow, like mandas you are on your way to hell, you primitive atheist without dignity and values

I'll pray very hard.

You're in desperate need of it.

@Wow,

"IC is considered to be the same crackpot who calls EVERYONE who he claims wrong “a canadian”.

Nobody knows why.

Well, maybe, he once met a Canadian whom he considered stupid by his own standards and now he not only thinks that ALL Canadians are stupid but also that everybody whom he believes to be stupid must be Canadian.

The way IC's neurons work (provided he has got any at all that work, which is hard to imagine), he does not make a difference between people outside the USA. In his narrow universe they all seem to be Canadian. Same as everyone who does not share is ridiculous religious belief, is a madman on their way to hell. He does not even realise that hell is only a product of fantasy and does not exist in the real world.

Isn't it a shame that grown-ups like IC still cling to silly beliefs that even a child who has not been brain-washed by other religious crackpots can tear to shreds in seconds?

The only chance for him to keep escaping reality is to make himself immune to information that could shatter his silly, religiously distorted and rigid worldview.

It really shocks me over and over again, when I realise that some people (for goodness' sake their number is slowly shrinking) in the face of all contrary evidence still believe that creationist BULLSHIT!

Or met a canadian who said he was an idiot and then he just considered it "canadian" to be so rude to a redneck rube screaming "DIE YOU FAGGOT LEFTIE COMMIE NAZI WATERMELON!" to their face.

I mean, he was only being redneck. Not like he actually knew enough about what he said to think it an *insult*.

So rude of someone to tell him to shut the f up! He has the Freedom Of Speech! As long as he can shout everyone else down for being obviously Left of him.

Most canadians I have met were stupid. If they did not have someone there to tell them what to do, they would have no idea what to do.

American global warming or anthorpogeneric or what ever. it's all man made-up global warming. An imaginary scenario that could not even happen if you wanted it to.

Hell is a real place just like heaven. You are given achoice of which you will go to, but pagan earth worship of man made-up global warming and denying your creator is not exactly the best path away from hell.

So my denial of yoyur new world order means nothing. Maybe not to you, but to me and 53 percent of the rest of us it means a great deal. It means we do not have to "move forward" (or downhill in your case) for following the ways of the evil world. It means we can stay the same as we are now for all eternity. Why not? God never changes either. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Every time some liberal in tv says the words "move forward" it makes me cringe. It's almost like an engineering who redesigns something to make it "better" when in fact it is far worse. Seldom does change make anything "better". Some changes are positive, but most end up makes us more miserablae and worse off than before.

Yes I believe in a literal creation. So what? darwin and his ape man fantasy tales is just a sideshow. He was a delusional beared turtle herder who kneweth not of what he spake. His ideas are the laughing stock of many conservatives. I will be a creationist now and 900 trillion millenia from now as well. There is no force on the earth r under the earth or above the earth or in the universe that will ever change that. You can preach germ infected slob knob ape to mud to monkey planets evolution all you want. I'll put my fingers in my ears, smile real big, and sing "LA LA LA! CAN'T HEAR YOU" until your heathen pagan ways are decreased to null and void and you go away in anguish and desolate bliss.

After the depressing Tueday night election results, I have obtained a positive piece of election news froma usually lair source - the Daily Kos, or Daily Gross, whichever you prefer.

Obama may have had his minions and slaves to send him back in for forty more years, but I learned of a stunning victory for right wing conservatives on that night that dwarfs our loss to Obama and his youth army.

Here it is straight from the left wing press daily kos:

4,000 Georgians write in Charles Darwin against unopposed creationist candidate: You might remember tea partier Rep. Paul Broun, the know-nothing wackjob that represents Georgia's 10th congressional district, which includes Athens, home of the University of Georgia, where science is actually taught. The candidate, who had no Democratic foe on the ballot, was videotaped in September saying evolution, embryology and the Big Bang theory are "lies straight from the pit of hell." The 4,000 write-ins were not enough to put Darwin ahead, however. Broun got more than 209,000 votes. "

This fact alone gives me confort knowin that we one at least one important fight Tuesday night and that the Obama Youth Army still has no real standing south of the mason dixon line. Thank God for that and thank God for Rep. Paul Broun for standing up to the creeps and liars who peddle darwin turle herder fantasies.

"Most canadians I have met were stupid."

What? Even more stupid than yourself?

"Hell is a real place just like heaven."

Yeah, just as real in the sense that neither does exist. People who still believe in heaven and hell belong to the Dark Ages. Why don't you wake up to the present and to reality?

"His [Darwin's] ideas are the laughing stock of many conservatives."

Ignorant people like you and your conservative friends always laugh about things they are too stupid to understand.

"I’ll put my fingers in my ears, smile real big, and sing “LA LA LA! CAN’T HEAR YOU” until ..."

Which is the typical reaction of an ignorant twat: If you refuse to listen to the truth, you can continue to live in ignorant bliss. Learning is work, sometimes hard work, that is why you shun away from it.

"Obama Youth Army still has no real standing south of the mason dixon line."

It has been known to the ouside world for along time that people south of this line are particularly stupid and backward. So your observation does not come as a surprise.

"Thank God for that and thank God for Rep. Paul Broun for standing up to the creeps and liars who peddle darwin turle herder fantasies.

Have you got any idea why your god favours the stupid?

And if your "almighty" god has any doing in this, then why did it not manage to get Obama voted out of office?

See, your worldview is all in shambles, it does not add up, you contradict yourself in almost anything you say. And this is not only due to your inability to use your natives language properly.

sorry, must be "native" language.

IC, face it, either God wanted Obama to win or he doesn't exist to influence the vote.

"“Hell is a real place just like heaven.”

Yeah, just as real in the sense that neither does exist"

What about purgatory and limbo? The former was merely invented because otherwise there is no use in praying (or, more pertinently, paying churches to pray) for someone who has died.

Go on, point to heaven or hell.

I'll point to lollipop land.

He's a poe.

Just a really grubby one.

At least, I hope that he is - otherwise he's a seriously sick individual.

Nevertheless, Evolution was a fantasy of that old bearded turtle herder dawin. You still follow his failed fantasies as if they were true. You can say heaven or hell is not real and God is not real all you want. it changes nothing.

Yes we down here in normal land south of the union border consider people north of the mason dixon line a little backwards too. I mean, who else makes dressing with loaf bread for Pete's sake? Down here we, for the msot part, have ignored european ideals and marxist ideal and the left wing establishment. We do alot of laughing at liberals down here becuase we find ther ideas funny, almost alien. They make no sense whatsoever.

Oh well. Looks like liberalism is here to stay, at least until judgement day anyway. At least we are 53 percent free of it down here and peope like Paul Broun can still win elections down here. I hope that never changes.

@IC,

"I hope that never changes."

In other words: you want to stay ignorant and stupid forever.

Just how stupid guys like Broun and his crony Todd Akin are, is clearly shown here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/06/republican-congressman-paul…

Even his spokeswoman distanced herself from the silly attitude Broun displays:

" Dr Broun was speaking off the record to a large church group about his personal beliefs regarding religious issues."

No intelligent person can take that unbelievable nonsense Broun and his ilk are spreading seriously. If you do, it just proves how darn stupid you are.

BTW, Broun claims to have evidence for a young Earth. How come he never produces any?

There is evidence for a oung eath and it has been produced. we need more politicians like Broun and less like Reid.

He was unopposed in his re election bid. Any takers who can tell me why the democrap party did not challengeMr. Broun since he happens to be so wrong? There was the 4000 turtle herder darwinists who wrote in the bearded turlte herders name, but was beat by 203,000 votes and rightfully so.

Anyone who believes in the turtle herder darwin and his fantasy bedtime storiesa of apemen and fish lizards has a serious mental defect.

Yes Mr. Bround was speaking to a church group. You know the CHURCH who believes in creation and NOT evolution.

No, there's a lack of evidence you will accept of an older earth.

The only evidence for a young earth is "It is written in this book wot I says is right".

Same goes for old earth fantaisies as well.

There is no evidence of an old earth. The fossils you see is evidence for a global flood. So is the Grand Canyon, the Tetons, and a host of other objects and mountains in nature.

@IC,

"There is evidence for a oung eath and it has been produced

What you call "evidence" is utter BS. No one who is right in his mind can deny that Earth is indeed billions of years old. The evidence is there to see and test for everyone. Only people who want to deny reality say otherwise.

Have you ever seen a tree grow? It takes time, often hundreds of years. Layers of rock form much more slowly. But Earth bounds with whloe mountain ranges where you find thosands of these layers on top of each other. And waht is most striking, some of these layers can only have been deposited on the ocean floor, while other only on dry land. You find these sort of layers alternate, so the same piece of rock that today is a mountain thousands of feet high, once was ocean floor, then rose above sea level and a few millenia later was submerged again, thus taking millions of years to accumulate all the material that now forms its substance.

To claim that such a thing could have happened within a few days (the flood BS myth) is nonsense to the extreme! You must must the facts: there is nothing that you have in support of your silly claims apart from that bronze age book, where cattle herders thought up how the world around them might have come into existence. How wrong they were!

Entire mountain ranges were formed rapidly due to one large land mass dividing at the time (and partial cause) of the global flood in Noah's time. Same goes with the grand canyon.

Yes trees have rings? Your point would be? Some years have two growth rings or sometimes more, leaving your tree ring evidence as false.

Nothing you claims supports your darwin apeman fantasy book where the turtle herder thought up how the world around him might have come into existance. How wrong darwin was.

@IC,

you really believe in that nonsense story about Noah' flood?

Go to a zoo and ask any of the poeple working there what theyx think of that BS fairy tale that seven people can have looed after all the species of animals and plants in the world on a tiny vessel that could not even have been built with the equipment and tools of the time for over a year.

What about all those creatures who depend on a well-balanced evironment for their survival. How did fresh water fish survive that mixture of fresh and salt water that would have covered the Earth if the story was true, what about the salt water fish that had their surroundings dilugted whe masses of rain came pouring down? And so on, and so on.

No one who has the slightest knowledge of the natural world would take that primitve and extremely unlikely - no impossible - tale seriously. Only religious nuts, who believe anything that is in the old crappy book, buy that utter nonsense.

Sorry for being so blunt but it makes me mad when I must learn that even today there are people around that deny reality to such an extreme that they accept the impossible as eternal truth.

"Some years have two growth rings or sometimes more, leaving your tree ring evidence as false. "

Incorrect. Some TREES have two growth rings or sometimes more - and with a little practice they are easy to detect. So when you use more then one tree - and that's what you do - you have a bunch of dates. Furthermore dendrochronology is in agreement with other dating methods.

"The fossils you see is evidence for a global flood."

So why do we find different fossils in different strata?

Different strata? Layers eh?

Well, why do we find fossils at all? becuase these animals were rapidly buried in mud. How man animals just die and then fossilize? ZERO. They have to be rapidly buried usually alive to be fossilized and especially to be fossilized while they are stil eating. Fossils themselves are evidence of the global flood of Noah's time. As far as your whole strat layers are concerned, you can have multiple layers of soil, mud, etc from a short single season flood. If that is pssoble, think of a flood that lasted 40 days and water that lasted 6 month before there was enough dry land to land a ship on. Now think of all the run off over the entire globe as things started to dry out and drain down. Trillions of animals and plants buried.

How did sharks survive fresh water and how did largemouth bass survive salt water? I don't know and don't care. I am quite sure that some species had to not survive eventually. I assume tha Creator who spoke the universe into existence could probably handle the small task of saving a few fish from salt inhalation.

Go to the zoo and ask a monkey feeder about the flood eh? Good idea. I will get right on that. I bet they know everything at the zoo. They should know everything. Afyer all, they do have conversations with the animals. Maybe the tigers could answer your questions. I'll ask them and see what they say. Then again, I better ask the apes since you say they are related to you. I'll ask them if any of them know you as well. They will probably deny everything.

Insufficient compos mentis.

You really have no idea of science, nor of the psychological scotoma that your superstition inflicts, do you?

No. I do not. Please enlighten me.

And ... which "superstition" would that be? As I recal I have no superstitions. Black cats do not bother me and walking under a ladder I have no issues with. So, please enlighten me. I await your almighty, all knowing response.

I do have an idea of science. I work with science in the electrical engineering/RF field. It's cant get much sciencier than RF, complex electrical circuits, and such.

However, I have never witnessed a complex circuit make itself. it had an intelligent designer. Please do explain your logic of life making itself over time. Please also explain exactly how much time is required for matter to form from the blackness of nothingnessand eventually create life all on its own. Go ahead. Enlighten me. I await your all knowing answers.

Ah, further support for the Salem hypothesis.

How apposite.

Note sure who salem is, but you make my point. Either you are canadian and do not know any better or you seriously believe that matter formed from nothing on its ownand later came to life. And you tell me I live in a fantasy world? HA!

By the way, you never did do any explaining. I still await your answer if you really have one.

As I recal I have no superstitions.

You're a young-earth fundamentalist creationist. You adhere to religious superstitions including the existence of supernatural beings and the intercession of supernatural influences in the operation of the physical universe - both for which you have no evidence beyond a much-edited book written by tribesmen, scientifically-illiterate priests, schizophrenics, politicians and sundry other folk with distorted perceptions and intentions.

You're no different from someone who believes that Santa Claus rides a magic sleigh and drops down chimneys on one night of the year to deliver presents to hundreds of millions of children. The only difference is that you're an adult who thinks that his sky fairy is real, and you smile smugly at others whom you think are missing your amazing insight.

Like I said - psychological scotoma.

It’s cant get much sciencier than RF, complex electrical circuits, and such.

OK, so explain why your job is as sciencey as it gets. With examples to both your work and the work of other disciplines.

However, I have never witnessed a complex circuit make itself

Straw man.

Please do explain your logic of life making itself over time.

Oh, I could spend several chapters worth of typing to detail the best understanding of it to you, but I know that you wouldn't listen past the first sentence.

Also, there's a logical fallacy in your presumption that if we don't know it all, we know nothing, and hence a superstitious belief is an acceptable substitute.

Go ahead. Enlighten me.

Enlighten yourself - let go of your fears of mortality and of humanity, and accept that you are clinging to what is nothing more than a prehistoric emotional crutch and a tool for social cohesion. Use logic, and the evidence of the physics of the world around you, physics that you claim to understand, and you will see that your beliefs only maintain integrity in your mind whilst you deny their inconsistencies and incompatibilities with the reality of the laws of nature.

"As far as your whole strat layers are concerned, you can have multiple layers of soil, mud, etc from a short single season flood."

And why do we always find fossils of species A in stratum X and fossils of species B in stratum Y?

@IC,

"Go to the zoo and ask a monkey feeder about the flood eh? Good idea. I will get right on that.

Yes, please do. Ask them if they can imagine that a small bunch of eight people could be able to look after ALL the species of plants, animals, fungi, a. s. o. on a tiny vessel for more than a year.

The answers you will get will tear your silly belief to shreds: "No way!"

"How did sharks survive fresh water and how did largemouth bass survive salt water? I don’t know and don’t care."

Yes, that explains it nicely. Whatever facts interfere with your misconceptions about the real world, are met with a shrug of your shoulders and nonchalantly brushed aside. What do you care, when your belief does not add up? What do you care when you wade hip-deep in contradictions? What do you care when you spread obvious lies to other people?

Fact is, you do not! You very well know that you are wrong but keep asserting the opposite. You are nothing more than a pharisaic, deceiving hypocrite.

" I don’t know and don’t care.”

And you don't know and don't care how evolution works.

Since not knowing and not caring means you accept the word, you accept evolution.

"You adhere to religious superstitions including the existence of supernatural beings and the intercession of supernatural influences in the operation of the physical universe" ...

Yep. Except I just call Him Jesus instead of going into a frenzied excessive paragraphical tirade.

Fears? Mortality? Sky fairies? Well, Mr. Bernard J canadian let me let you in on a few secrets of the trade.

1) Fear is common to all man. You yourself are so afraid of God that you use man made science to take the place of Him therefore creating a false idol. So, Sir, you do indeed worship a God - the God you call "science". it is your idol. However, it is a false idol. It has no salvation qualities whatsoever. It cannot bring back the dead. It is a false idol. let go of YOUR fears and let go of your man made science and embrace the whole picture.

2) Mortality? Seriously? You actually think that when I die that is the end? NO! One day my body will be ressurrected and renewed as immortal - perfect. Can your science ressurect a human from death and make it immortal? NOPE! Jesus willingly came here in order forus to have ETERNAL life - a ressurection will occur some day and those who died who relied on Him will reign eternal with Him. Those who did not will be subjected to be punished with satan and his allies in a lake of fire for all eternity. So, Mr. Bernard J., there is no such thing as permanent mortality.

3) While you brong up he subject of sky fairies, let me remind you that it is you wo worship little fairies who sprinkle their carbon dust over the earth to warm it. That is just about as close to a sky fairy as you can get.

Jan:

I doubt seriuously if a zoo keeper has any answers whatsoever to give about Noah and the ark. Most of them probably do not even know what a boat is or what it is used for, but for your sake I will ask one the next time I go. I can;t wait to see the look on theei faces when I ask them how Noah fit a T Rex on the ark and how he fed it without getting eaten. ALERT! I have the answer, but I doubt if zoo boy has the correct answer. Wanna hear it or should I let you figure it out?

@IC,

I'm quite eager to "learn" how a hypothetical Noah would have managed to feed a T Rex (by the way, what on, meat (where from?) or bananas (and again, where from? How do you manage to keep bananas and other fresh food that animals eat for more than a year in edible condition? What about the Koalas, who depend on freshly picked eucayptus leaves?)?

But I'm quite prepared to get another preposterous assertion from you instead of any sensible reply.

It's like talking to a rock - which is what happens when trolls are lit by the harsh rays of the sun.

1) I'm not Canadian.

2) I'm not living in fear of any god.

3) Science is not my god. Science is simply the most efficient way to employ logic, data, and truth to understand the universe.

I was raised Christian, and I eschewed religiosity as a boy afte I saw in fundamentalists the mental contortions, the paradoxical thinkings, the refusals to understand, the ignorings of the truth, the lyings to selves and others, and the denial of the obvious - amongst many other intellectual failings.

And "having faith" doesn't mean that one must be blind to the laws of physics - as so many fundamentalist Christians are.

4) "Eternal life"? Hell? "Lake of fire"? Tell me, Insufficient compos mentis, have you reconciled yet the Second Law of Thermodynamics with your superstitions? Tell me, where exactly is Heaven? Where is Hell? What fuels the lake of fire? What is the minimum amount of anti-god activity required to be tortured for all eternity? How does a benevolent god justify such disproportionate cruelty for finitely definable misdeed? Do Catholics go to Heaven? Protestants? Will unbaptised babies be allowed in?

Tell me... Does God condone polygamy? If so, why do our churches not allow us to marry multiple partners? If not, how then will people who married more than once after widowing live? Is polygamy OK in heaven?

Tell me... Will we need to eat in Heaven? Do amputees get their limbs back? Do bald men get their hair back? Do old people get their youth back? Do dead kids get to grow up and have their own kids? If not, why not? If so, who many people will end up living in Heaven?

Do unborn babies have souls? Do embryos have souls? Do zygotes have souls? Do gametes have souls?

How do you know?

5) "...you wo {sic] worship little fairies who sprinkle their carbon dust over the earth to warm it. That is just about as close to a sky fairy as you can get. "

Eh?

Try as you might there's no denying that humans have added over 115 ppm (~41% extra) CO2 to the atmosphere.

Try as you might there's no denying that CO2 is a 'greeenhouse' gas.

Try as you might there's no denying that CO2is warming the planet.

Try as you might there's no denying that a warming the planet spells serious problems for the ongoing survival many species, and of of humans as a civilisation - and perhaps as a species ourselves.

This is demonstrated by science and by empirical evidence. Where do you see the magic?

"You yourself are so afraid of God that you use man made science to take the place of Him therefore creating a false idol."

Boring! 'You don't believe in God, so that must be because you are afraid of him!' The all-time fundamentalist lullaby.

IC just because you're terrified at life doesn't mean fear runs everyone else's life.

bernard, jan, wow: your problem in this debate is that you completely lack any konwledge in the fields of general biology, molecular biology, molecular genetics, biochemistry, medicine, physiology, pschology, zoology, bacteriology, virology, phytology and other bioscences. hence you have zero basis for a competenz discussion with IC. therefore, you better shut up being such poor non-performers.

... unlike kai, who knows everything...

@JV,

what's wrong with kai? He actually used two capital letters in his posting. Could it be that by chance he found the shift key on his computer keyboard?

Yes, kai is a universal genius, he started off knowing a litlle about many topics and as time went by he learned less and less about more and more subjects till he kneow nothing about everything. Then he started to learn more and more about less and less and now he knwos everything about nothing.

One way or the other, that guy is so full of shit, if you gave him an enema he would afterwards fit into a matchbox.

Hi Guys. Miss me while I am away?

Just in civilisation for a couple of days so I thought I would catch up with the happenings. Just a request though - please don't be so hard on IC. It's not his fault he is the way he is.

There are obviously systemic problems which allow children to grow up uneducated, so it is partly the fault of the US education system. But really, I blame the parents. They should be imprisoned for child abuse for what they did to his young mind - filling it full of their own twisted fears.

Oh - and just a point on evolution. I really cannot understand why creationists have such an obsession with Charles Darwin. Darwin did not 'invent' evolution. Darwin just developed a theory to explain why evolution occurs. And science has moved on in the last 150 years. There isn't a biologist in the world who still adheres to Darwin's theory, just as there isn't a physicist in the world who thinks that Newton's ideas explain how the universe works. I would like to suggest that creationists get with the times and try to criticise current scientific thinking, rather than focussing on 150 year old ideas. But then, when you base your whole world view on a 600 year old book that is a bad translation of a few 1,500 year old texts which are bad accounts of some 2,000 - 4000 year old oral fables, what do you expect?

Bernard,

There is no such law of thermodynamics in a spiritual world. Besides this earth will be BURNED - everything destroyed and replaced with a new Heaven and a new Earth.

The requirement for Heaven is simple - be saved. Jesus came here to set right what went wrong in Eden and He willingly chose to die in our place so that we can have eternal life.

Baptism is not required to be saved. it is symbolic of an old sinful life being washed away and a new life beginning. Multiple "partners" as you call it was NEVER in the plans of God -
He CREATED one man and for that one man He created ONE WOMAN, not tow, not fity, and not another man. Multiple partners and same sex partners was NEVER the original plan of God.

Yes amputees get their limbs back. What a silly question. Our bodies will be renewed - brand new bodies with ZERO flaws. Perfect vison, perfect teeth, bones, no sickness, no death.

Not sure how many people will be in heaven, but the New Jerusaelm as described in Reveleation is 1000 miles in all four directions. An enormous city. That is just the city alone. That does not even cover the expanses of
the rural areas. So, technically you could fit every person ever born there and still have room for several trillion more generations. Yes unborn babies have souls and one daythe people who took their lives will
face those men and women face to fae and have to ive na account of their selfish actions. Zygotes? Uh, a repeat - unborn babies have souls. A zygote is a baby. When coneption happens the soul is made.

Fairies sprinkling carbon dust to warm the earth is my version of your global warming God. Co2 is irrelevant. The last time Mount St Helens erupted it produced more CO2 than ever car and every factory ever made combined.
nature produces far more carbon than man. Our carbon footprint is more like a grain of sand n the middle of the galaxy compared with the C)2 that comes out of the planet through vents and volcanoes. So, yes your science is right.
The earth is warming. But you are wrong. it will get cool again. The earth has natural cylces. Get over it. I suppose the ice melting on mars is from too many martian driving SUVs or mining too much coal? You may or may not be Canadian,but your method of thinking corresponds to places where sodium fluoride is daily ingested. Your intelligence and willpower is shrivling. I would move if I were you.

JAN,

I am not terrified at life? Why would I be. A promise of eternal life in perfect health and peace? Why would I fear that?

Mandas,

Leaders who imprison parents who teach their kids different from the leading authorities have a name - COMMUNISTS and if that is not illegal here, it should be. Mandas, you should move to Cuba or China if you
like making these thing illegal. You would fit right in with the rest of the tyrants and creeps. It is the responsibility of the parent, NOT the government to educate a child. The modern government helps, the soul
responsibility is with the parents, not some tyrant overlord official in a corrupt government system. Here in the USA we believe in INDIVIDUAL sovereignty and individual human rights granted by God and not by government.
As "collectivist" as our dear leader may wish us to be, we spitefully protest and absolutely refuse to be anything other than what were were created to be. He has no authority over GOD given rights. We are not the collective. We
are sovereign individuals CREATED by a common God and Him only do we serve. We will not comply. Got that or do I need to run the whole FREEDOM thing by you one more time? What screwed up tyrant run overlord country do you come from anyway?

@IC,

" He willingly chose to die in our place so that we can have eternal life."

Where is the logic in that? It's a classical non-sequitur.

If your imaginary god had wanted to "forgive" people for something that their imaginry ancestors has done, he could just have forgiven them.

If your neighbour insulted you, would you beat up your son in order to forgive your neighbour?

Don't you see how mentally distorted you belief is? What about that religious rubbish you presented in your last posting? It's all made up. There is no way of knowing anything about this. You believe in things that do not exist.

And you do have a sub-standard knowledge about how the bible originated. Bringing in "revelation" says it all. Not even believers - provided they are not immune to reason - accept that book as a valid part of the bible und admit that it was included just by accident.

"responsibility is with the parents"

Yes, it should be. Parents are responsible for their children getting the best education available. But home schooling parents abuse that responsibility by feeding their children all sorts of trash, trash that their silly minds believe to be "eternal truth". It's a vivious circle, because these children will also want to pass on their gravely distorted worldview to their own children, a. s. o.

Please do not talk about a subject you know absolutely nothing about: science.

Science is the pursuit of real knowledge and that is permanently put to the test. What you want is a permanent confirmation of what you believe you know, even if it means twisting the facts.

Take Mount St Helens. You have absolutely no mind for figures and your knowledge about such things is zero. You just parrot nonsense that you pick up from denier websites.

What about some real informaton? Look here for a start:

http://scienceblogs.com/illconsidered/2006/02/volcanos-emit-more-co2/

Funny to think that you criticise others because you believe they subject themselves to tyrants, when at the same time you follow the greatest tyrant imaginable, who is willing to destroy the lives of billions of people if they do not obey his orders: your biblical god. Is that your idea of freedom?

This is most likely familiar to most of you, but just as a benefit to those who have not come across it yet and as a reminder of how absurd the writings of the old testament are, which a lot of people - in cluding IC - believe to be eternal truth:

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/drlaura.htm

"Yes amputees get their limbs back."

Why? Do they need them in eternal life? Why don´t they get them back in this life?

"Perfect vison, perfect teeth, bones, no sickness, no death."

What about appendices? I mean this little organ is far from being perfect. And will God remove the crossing of trachea and oesophagus?

@IC,

Doing a little research I found this interesting bit of information about the priest and geologist Buckland, who lived in the early 19th century.

This is what Buckland, a fromer believer in the biblical flood, wrote and said in 1831 about the "event":

"'Having been myself a believer, and, to the best of my power, a propagator of what I now regard as a philosophic heresy, and having more than once been quoted for opinions I do not now maintain, I think it right, as one of my last acts before I quit this Chair, thus publicly to read my recantation.... 'There is, I think, one great negative conclusion now incontestably established -- that the vast masses of diluvial gravel, scattered almost over the surface of the earth, do not belong to one violent and transitory period....

'We ought, indeed, to have paused before we first adopted the diluvian theory, and referred all our old superficial gravel to the action of the Mosaic flood.... In classing together distant unknown formations under one name; in giving them a simultaneous origin, and in determining their date, not by the organic remains we had discovered, but by those we expected hypothetically hereafter to discover, in them; we have given one more example of the passion with which the mind fastens upon general conclusions, and of the readiness with which it leaves the consideration of unconnected truths.'"
http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/part-21-summary-on-flood.html

It seems that you and your silly beliefs about the "truth" of the flood are much closer to the Dark Ages than to our modern day and age.

BTW, the blog from which I quoted this is a good starting point for everyone who wants to test their knowledge of what really happened in the early history of Earth:

http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/part-1-general-description-of-flood…

It was written by Alan Feuerbacher, also a former believer in the flood, who after intensive studies came to the unavoidable conclusion that he had been told a bunch of deliberate lies by those people who made him believe that silly story about Noah and his "loving" god's wrath, that "almighty" being, who had no other means of controlling a few sinners but to destroy most of his wonderful "creation".

Even for a much lesser being there would have been numerous even more effective ways of doing this. And let's use a little logic again: considering that Sodom and Gomorrha and all the rest happened AFTER the flood, your god did a hell of a lousy job inflicting the flood on a few poor sinners,

A few more questions: Do you really believe that of ALL the people who supposedly lived at the time of Noah (let's assume for the sake of the argument that Noah is NOT a purely fictional character), ONLY Noah, his wife, sons and their wives were righteous people and ALL the others were wrotten sinners. What about the in-laws of Noah's sons? If they brought up righteous and god-fearing daughters, could they have been so sinful that they also deserved death?

You see, the more you think about the flood legend the more absurd the whole thing becomes. Let's face it: it does not at all add up and only people with a distorted mind will buy into that rubbish.

Kai:

bernard, jan, wow: your problem in this debate is that you completely lack any konwledge in the fields of general biology, molecular biology, molecular genetics, biochemistry, medicine, physiology, pschology, zoology, bacteriology, virology, phytology and other bioscences. hence you have zero basis for a competenz discussion with IC. therefore, you better shut up being such poor non-performers.

Snigger. I've studied for my undergrad degree and postgrad degrees - and/or worked in for the last several decades - every single one of these fields.

What's your experience?

IC.

There is no such law of thermodynamics in a spiritual world.

On what basis do you claim that the laws of physics will be suspended after death? Are you claiming that Heaven and Hell exist in a universe separate to the one we inhabit?

The rest of your screed is astonishingly based in childishly imaginative thinking, but I am still interested in whether people will have children in Heaven. If they do, how many on average per child? And if everyone lives for eternity, do you know how many decendants everyone will have even halfway* to the point?

Do you know what the final population of Heaven will be?

[*Yes, that's a trick question...]

...how many on average per child couple?

@ Bernard:
"What’s your experience?"

Let´s see: Based on his rants one can assume that kai is about 15 years old. That gives him 9 years in (or of) the German school system.

This is really getting rather silly. I already said that when the resurection happens your body will be made anew. Perfect. If you do not know what that word means, please consult Merriam Webster.

Why don;t amputees get their limbs back here? Uh, for the same reasons pancakes cannot fly and frogs cannot sing and dance. The question is silly. You say you support your science books, but fail to use that knowledge. We as humans have no yet unlocked the ability to regrow our limbs should one get amputated. When SIN entered into the world EVERYTHING in the world changed. Plants, animals, humans, etc. It all changed. Before sin, there was no death., There was no sickness. Bushes with thorns did not even exist. It was a perfect paradise. No shortage of water. No danger from "wild" animals since animals did not kill each other before sin. Even after the ressurection things will be this way again. We are told that the lion will lie down with the lamb and the lamb will not be harmed, etc.

Oh, and if you really wnat me to bake your limp noodles, then how about explaining why hundreds of Biblical prophecies came true? Explain to me how Isaiah predicted the coming of the Messiah and how he would arrive 800 years before it even happened. Ayone care to explain that?

Better yet explain this. John tells us roughly 2000 years ago that in the end time there would be an image of a woman riding a beast in a multi nation empire. Well, he was right. The upcoming new Euro scheduled for May will have the image of a woman riding a beast. Unless your science books can predict future happening with precision and accuracy second to none, I will keep believing in my Bible.

Better luck next time.

http://www.prophecynewswatch.com/2012/November14/144.html

Ah the hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance of the fundie creationist. See if you can pick what is wrong with this statement by IC:

"Leaders who imprison parents who teach their kids different from the leading authorities have a name – COMMUNISTS and if that is not illegal here, it should be. Mandas, you should move to Cuba or China if you
like making these thing illegal. You would fit right in with the rest of the tyrants and creeps.

IC won't see it of course, but it is obvious to everyone else. IC believes in freedom and democracy, and that parents should be free to choose how and what to teach their children - as long as he agrees with what they teach. He believes that it is wrong to make the teaching of creationism illegal. But the teaching of communism - well, that should definitely be illegal.

This is the perfect illustration of what is wrong with the fundie mind. They simply can't see the hypocrisy and contradictions in their own worldview, which is probably why they are completely incapable of seeing the obvious contradictions in their book of fairy stories.

Fundies believe in frreedom - but only if they agree with the philosophy that is being espoused. And fundies are christians - they just don't adhere to the principles of christianity.

There is an important parable in the bible about hypocrisy. In John 8:7, jesus speaks to men who are about to stone a woman for adultery, saying:

<i"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

The lesson is obviously lost on IC, who doesn't really know or understand what is in the bible anyway. I guess that is why he is such a hypocrite and liar.

@IC,

"Explain to me how Isaiah predicted the coming of the Messiah"

A lie does not become true by repeating it. In fact, Isaiah did NOT predict anything of that kind, which is proven by the fact that the Jews are still wainting for their messiah.

Iasaih only said as much that a young woman (NOT a virgin, that is a mistranslation of the septuaginta) would give birth to a boy and call him Immanuel. So what? The name is worng for a start and the rest is commonplace.

Fact is, there is not a single "prophecy" in the bible that cannot be explained by shere coincidence, but for the vast majority of them it takes more than a twist to fit them to a later event.

Talking about twists, I take it that you are referring to Revelation 17:3 when you mention the womanon the beast. Let's just see, what the text actually says:

"There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns."

Really impressive! Are you really suggesting that a woman on a "scarlet beast" with "seven heads and ten horns" bears any resemblance whatsoever to the mythical figure of Europa riding the bull?

It is preposterous how religious cranks like you babble the most mind-boggling nonsense imaginable and still give the impression that you actually believe what you are saying.

There is not a single "prophecy" that withstands any scrutiny. The horoscope of any tabloid contains more prophecies come true than the silly book you believe in.

As for your assertions, they are just that: assertions. Anything you claim to "know" are just fantasies of a sick mind, at best parroted nonsense you picked up from other sick minds or clever frauds who exploits simple-minded folk like you.

Jan

The reason there are so many predictions in the bible that have come true is because the bible was written after the events it describes.

It's pretty easy to make a prediction after the event.

Why don;t [sic] amputees get their limbs back here?

Straw man fallacy.

I didn't ask this question. I'm not interested in the reasons for humans on Earth not regenerating their amputations. The point is not about why amputations do not regenerate in humans on Earth, it's about the regeneration of amputations in Heaven.

If there is such regeneration, one would assume that there is a physicality in Heaven. Which begs my previous questions - where exactly is Heaven, and why do the current laws of physics not operate there?

Speaking of amputations... Do foreskins regenerate? Why? Didn't God want good Christians to remove these emcumbrances? Or will they be regenerated and circumsized at regular intervals for all eternity? If so, why?

Uh, for the same reasons pancakes cannot fly and frogs cannot sing and dance.

Wrong. This is the logical fallacy of false analogy.

The reasons for non-regeneration of amputations is very different from the reasons that "pancakes cannot fly and frogs cannot sing and dance".

The question is silly.

If you're referring to the question "Why don;t [sic] amputees get their limbs back here?", you asked it not me. And yes it is silly because it is, as I've just indicated, a fallacy of logic.

You say you support your science books, but fail to use that knowledge.

No, I did not say that. I said that "[s]cience is simply the most efficient way to employ logic, data, and truth to understand the universe".

You are the one who has on at least two previous separate occasions referred to "science books", which is telling insofar as it indicates an apsect of your psychology where knowledge is simply something that is written. In fact real, operational knowledge is a much more sophisicated thing - but your disinclination to understand this likely reflects an attempt, whether conscious or not, to place your single reference - mythic book, albeit one containing useful cultural wisdom - on the same footing as the vast body of human scientific endeavour.

This is the red herring logical fallacy of appealling to equality.

We as humans have no yet unlocked the ability to regrow our limbs should one get amputated.

So what?

This is largely the logical fallacy of argumentum ad antiquitam. If and when human understanding develops sufficiently that we can regenerate amputations, will God then evaporate in a puff of irrelevance?

When SIN entered into the world EVERYTHING in the world changed. Plants, animals, humans, etc. It all changed. Before sin, there was no death., There was no sickness. Bushes with thorns did not even exist. It was a perfect paradise. No shortage of water. No danger from “wild” animals since animals did not kill each other before sin.

What?! Are you serious?!

Did carnivores have only molars before human "sin"? Did raptors have blunt beaks and claws? Were cheetahs stumpy-legged, and did animals across taxa not have camouflage? How do box jellyies make a living? And sharks - did they munch on seagrass and kelp. What about a tuna - they are completed shaped to chase prey - were they a different shape before "sin"? How did Cordyceps reproduce? What did female mosquitoes drink with their mouthparts? For what did crustaceans such as lobsters and pistol shrimp use their claws? Were spiders fangless and webless? If plants did not have spines and chemical defences, what stopped them from being grazed to extinction? Did humans not have appendices and thymus glands and Peyers patches and spleens and tonsils and adenoids?

Was there no summer and winter before "sin"? If so, did God tip the planet by 23 degrees just to spite his creation? If there were no seasons, did animals not then migrate or have their adaptations for migration, and did hibernating animals not then hiberate or have adaptations for hibernation? Was deciduosity non-existent before "sin"?

Was death by breaking a neck from falling out of a tree impossible? Was death by drowning in that surfeit of water impossible?

As I have asked previously without answer, what is your evidence for your responses? And why was of of this astonishing redesigning required because one woman ate one wrong piece of fruit?

Even after the ressurection [sic] things will be this way again. We are told...

Yes, you are told, but by whom, and how did s/he know? Upon what evidence was this claim based?

...that the lion will lie down with the lamb and the lamb will not be harmed, etc.

So all of the adaptations to avoid predation and herbivory will once again disappear? Summer and winter will cease to exist? Immune systems will disapear, and death by accident will once again be impossible?

Oh, and if you really wnat [sic] me to bake your limp noodles, then how about explaining why hundreds of Biblical prophecies came true?

Because most prophecies were written after the events prophecied, or because both prophecy and event were written about after the times claimed for them, or because they describe in the first place non-existent events that were subsequently claimed to have occurred, or because the prophecies were so vague as to inevitably describe some event at some point in the future.

Explain to me how Isaiah predicted the coming of the Messiah and how he would arrive 800 years before it even happened. Ayone care to explain that?

See above.

And see Jan's post.

Better yet explain this. John tells us roughly 2000 years ago that in the end time there would be an image of a woman riding a beast in a multi nation empire. Well, he was right. The upcoming new Euro scheduled for May will have the image of a woman riding a beast. Unless your science books can predict future happening with precision and accuracy second to none, I will keep believing in my Bible.

See above.

And see Jan's post.

And to repeat a previous point, science is much more than what is found in "science books".

Further, science predicts far many more things than does the Bible, with far more detail and accuracy. Nothing in the Bible cannot be easily explained by sledgehammer perception, or by post hoc documentation, or both.

Insufficient compos mentis, you are labouring under a religious delusion, sustained by a tremendous pychological scotoma manifested by a primal need to avoid the cognitive dissonance that your childish superstitions would otherwise bring to bear.

The only person you are convincing is yourself. The rest of us can see your naked intellectual depauperacy.

Aw, crap. A hanging html tab.

And I see that mandas pre-empted my comment about the Bilble's chronology.

"Not sure how many people will be in heaven, but the New Jerusaelm as described in Reveleation is 1000 miles in all four directions. An enormous city. That is just the city alone. That does not even cover the expanses of the rural areas.

Why are there rural areas in heaven? Do they need to grow crops? What crops do they grow? Who grows them? Are there seasons? Rain? Do they need to use farm machinery? Trucks to transport the grain to factories to make bread? Who makes the bread? What means of remuneration is used to recompense the workers for their time? Do they do office work in the cities? Do the workers catch the subway to work?

For fuck sake! The very concepts espoused by IC are so deluded I have finally realised it is Poe.

And if some form of industrial activity is required to sustain the 'economy' of heaven, as surely there must be, what is the power source to sustain this industrial output and what is the means of power generation?
If 'God' made the world and decided there would be fossil fuels as part of its inventory, did 'He' get this idea from 'His' template of heaven? If so, can we assume there are fossil fuels in heaven and that they are burned as part of power generation schemes? If so, how does 'God' manage the inexorable increase in heavenly concentration of CO2, given that the population of heaven must be increasing (rapidly) all the time and so there must be more food creation in these wondrous "rural areas" and thus more industry to support this overall 'economy', and thus more CO2 output from this industry if such industrial output is underpinned by fossil-fuelled power generation? Is 'He' on the verge of cracking down on angel-pogenic heavenly warming? Or does heaven just have really good air-conditioning?
If your 'God' has the solution to the above, why doesn't 'He' let you know so you can inform the rest of us?
Actually, when was the last time you heard from your 'God'? And if 'He' speaks to you, then from where and by what means? When you make your pleas to your 'God', how long does it take for your words to reach 'Him', remembering that nothing in our universe at least can travel faster than the speed of light?

Can I take it for granted that your own parents were/are fundamentalist christians also and that everyone you consider as being in your circle of friends is also a fundamentalist christian?

I have been pretty sure he is a poe for a while now....but one never knows for sure.

IC,

You really need to think through this flood geology thing much more carefully. Take the existence of Koala bears (as mentioned previously), for instance. This really is a problem for flood geology. If Koala bears were present in the Ark, we would have to believe that they somehow managed to make it back to Australia, across thousands of miles without the only food source that they could eat, eucalyptus leaves. These trees did not exist anywhere outside Australia, so they would have had no food source. Also, we would expect to find Koala fossils all around the middle east if they originally existed there, which we do not. The only way this could be explained is if a couple of bears travelled all the way from Australia to Turkey just so that they could be saved, then travelled all the way back (without food). You can see how farcical this is getting. There are literally thousands & thousands of issues like this that would have to be resolved before young earth flood geology could be made to work.

Also, there are literally hundreds of thousands of diseases which afflict humans (and animals). In order for these diseases to exist now, they would ALL have had to exist on the Ark, (unless you are willing to posit a far higher rate of evolution than even the most ardent evolutionist). The denizens of the Ark would have had to be the sickliest bunch
of people & animals around.

These are the sorts of really serious issues with flood geology that people like you will have to address if you wish to be taken seriously, and if you don't realise they are insurmountable, then you are not thinking hard enough.

'Don't know & don't care' just doesn't cut it.

"Explain to me how Isaiah predicted the coming of the Messiah and how he would arrive 800 years before it even happened."

Isaiah didn´t predict Jesus as a messiah - read your bible.

"Why don;t amputees get their limbs back here? Uh, for the same reasons pancakes cannot fly and frogs cannot sing and dance. The question is silly. "

No, it isn't. If it is such a big deal that the human body - which we can assume is absolutely useless in eternal (spiritual) life - will be new and perfect, then the question why that doesn't happen in this life isn't silly at all.

"No shortage of water. No danger from “wild” animals since animals did not kill each other before sin."

So they didn´t eat? Or did they eat plants? Oh no, they couldn´t - because no plants had thorns so there were no herbivores either...

"Better yet explain this. John tells us roughly 2000 years ago that in the end time there would be an image of a woman riding a beast in a multi nation empire. Well, he was right. The upcoming new Euro scheduled for May will have the image of a woman riding a beast. "

Simply not true....

@Debunker,

it is really fascinating to see how the creationists make up "theory" after "theory" to "explain" all these riddles.

When asked about the distribution pattern of animals around the world some of them claim that prior to the flood there was only one continent which then broke apart and all the marsupials just happened to be on the part that later became Australia (just think of the enormous speed the continents must have had if they were to reach their present destination within the last 4000 years or so and how again they have to make up another unlikely "explanation" as to what physical forces were at work for the continental drift and why they move only so slowly today), while others claim that it was the descendants of Noah who took these animals with them (again, that leaves the question, why these people were so daft as to take all those poisonous animals and plants with them, and - in the example of Australia - "forgot" to take some of the more useful mammals like cattle, sheep and pigs with them. A. s. o., a. s.o.

There is no end to the problems that have to be "explained" away if they ernestly uphold that nonsense about Noah's flood.

The sad thing is, there is little point in arguing with these people, because they are absolutely immune to reason, facts and logic, but ridiculing them is so much fun! :-)

P.S.: One of my favourites: "God is very fond of whales, because each time a species became extinct he created a new one." But following that logic, god is much fonder of beetles!

I'm almost convinced that IC is a poe, but he is so invested in pushing the fundamentalist line that he'd have to be a very diligent poe indeed.

And that reveals its own psychological peculiarity, therefore whichever is the truth - poe or fundie - IC is carrying around some serious intellectual maladjustment.

JV,

Simply not true? Wjat is this, ignore the news day or something? The new Euro is going to have an image of a woman riding a beast on it. That fact is not up for debate. Come may, I'll get some new Euro currency and send it to you and let you see it for yourself if you refuse to believe it that much. Yes Isaiah DID predict the coming messiah and so did the Psalmnist David. You are ignoring these things becuase you now I am right.

This whole post and all its comment are a testament to one of teh predictions of the end times - men shall call good things evil and evil things good. That's right, people will get it all backwards calling socialism bad and commuism good. Adultery and sin good and family values bad. That's right, all you people fit right in that little prediction about backwardsness in the end times.

Debunker,

Thousands of diseases? Hardly. Disease has progressed over the years. There would not have been as many diseases then as there are now. We wnet from Eden where there was no such thing as disease until sin entered to now when we are plagued with one disease after another. Some man made. Men spend longer underwater in submarines than Noah and his family and the animals did on the ark. Somehow those men seem to make it just fine on their food, etc.

Mlax,

Seriously? CO2 is a joke. There is no man made global warming. Get over it. Industry in Heaven? I am not sure of that. The heaven that exists now is not the heavne that will be someday. The earth and heaven that exists now will be destroyed an a new heaven and earth will be created later after the Judgement.

If we are going to be like the angels of Jesus why would industry need to occur? I am sure we will have some task or job to do. Even the amngels who are higher tan us have specific tasks. Even the demons who have fallen away from God who were once loyal angels to Him still have tasks and jobs to do. Ever read the Lesser Key of Solomon or the Testamnet of Solomon? Some sicknesses are the job of certain demons whom I will not mention their name. Besides if there are 999 trillion people tripling the population every few years and fossil fule is be used there, what is your point? Global warming is a forwarned ancient pagan earth worship religion that has arisen once more. It does not exist.

Yes. Definitely Poe.

What a Gish gallop of rabid young-Earth creationist nonsense and illogicality.

Whether poe or genuine, if heaven is meant for the likes of childish, illiterate, superstition-hugging numpties such as IC, it won't be a very nice place to be.

IC, I note that there are dozens of questions about the nature of Christianity, heaven, and the afterlife that you have not answered.

If you require background reading to assist in your endeavours, try:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.ht…

www.cs.umd.edu/~mvz/bible/bible-inconsistencies.pdf

http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Inconsistencies_in_the_Bible

http://www.bidstrup.com/bible2.htm

http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/about/inerrancy-1.html

http://www.project-reason.org/scripture_project/Annotations:contradicti… (with a nice visual, also here)

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Problems_with_biblical_inerrancy

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Scientific_errors_in_the_Bible

http://biblebabble.curbjaw.com/bible.htm

http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/The_Bible_and_Science (with some humour...)

@mandas,

yes, I agree. As for me, I will no longer respond to IC. He's getting so much over the top, it would be a waste of time to deal with him any more.

jan, mandas. wow and other evolutionists: the problem i have in discusding with you the questions you are tackling here with IC is that you don't have any sufficient background of the current state of science in the field of molecular genetics which would provide you with knowledge and wisdom that would trash most of the wrong speculation of Darwin and dependent traditional geneticists who haven't learned much from modern molecular biology

Kai said:

jan, mandas. wow and other evolutionists... [garbage garbage garbage] ...modern molecular biology

Care to put forward an example of molecular biology contradicting evolution?

He isn't a poe.

What you're alluding to is him being a troll.

IC

"Some man made. Men spend longer underwater in submarines than Noah and his family and the animals did on the ark. Somehow those men seem to make it just fine on their food, etc."

Oh dear oh dear oh dear... How this answers my specific point about Koalas managing to find their way back to Australia after the flood without access to their only food, I don't know; but since you bring it up, those Koalas would also have had to be fed fresh eucalyptus leaves every day whilst on the ark. Where was Noah going to source that? Come to think of it, an African elephant eats about half a ton of vegetation every day! Where was Noah going to source a ton of vegetation a day to feed a pair of elephants? (plus 50 gallons of water each).

That's if we accept Genesis 6:20
Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

If we go with Genesis 7:2
Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

Which is it to be? And you say the bible doesn't have contradictions! Feeding seven pairs of elephants, (assuming elephants are clean, who knows?) just doesn't bear thinking about. (oh, Noah would also have had to take Asian elephants too as they are different species, so the problem just compounds).

Comparing that to men in a high tech, nuclear powered sub, with canned, high protein food, plus frozen food, technologies Noah wouldn't have had, just doesn't even begin to be an answer.

Your God presumably went to a lot of effort to give you brains. He must be very disappointed that you are making so little attempt to using them

(oh, Noah would also have had to take Asian elephants too as they are different species, so the problem just compounds)

And the pygmy elephant.

Thanks Wow, I was going to mention that but I didn't want to make things too difficult for him... Also, there are two species of African rhino, plus a couple of Asian ones, although they are just about extinct due to gullible Asians believing in their 'medicinal powers'. The horns are just keratin, they may as well grind up their own toe nails for all the good they will do...

"Simply not true? Wjat is this, ignore the news day or something? The new Euro is going to have an image of a woman riding a beast on it."

No, it´s not. Only if you interpret... hm... "a little".

"Yes Isaiah DID predict the coming messiah"

No, he didn´t. As I said: Read your bible. Isaiah wrote: "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel." And in the original text there is no mention of "virgin" but "young woman". Even more: The text referres to the clash of two kings - both of them were already dead, when Jesus was born.

You have to read the whole passage - not only the pieces which fit.

Bernard J.

who said "Whether poe or genuine, if heaven is meant for the likes of childish, illiterate, superstition-hugging numpties such as IC, it won’t be a very nice place to be."

Uh ... Ever hear of a fellow named Isaac Newton? Cotton Mather? James Parkinson? Jean Deluc? All men of science, and yet all men of God who believed in young earth creationism. I bet you never heard of Benjamin barton eh? The botanist who was also a young earth creationist? Look up John Kidd - the founder of most modern uses for coal and so called fossil fuels - another creationist.

Sir John William Dawson, the famous Geologist who also accepted ceatisonism. Charles Smyth, a famous astonomer who though that principles of the Bible should be taught in science. Look up Phillip H. Gosse and see what he believed.

Balfour Steward was the dicoverer of the ionosphere and Scottish physicist who once stated that there should be no conflict between the facts of science and the fundamentals of Christianity.

Bernard, what happened? I can name you at least 100 founders of modern science who were outstanding Bible believers as well as opponents to evolution. This modern stance that you have to be a left wing population control hippie communist atheist to be in the science field is a load of crap. Back in the day, REAL scientists knew that the world they studied was CREATED. That's before the creeps crept into the science field and ruined it with monkey to man fairy tales and global warming money laundering schemes. No matter how many links you list, the fact remains that some people try to invent ways to get around God. So far, the whole thing has been an utter failure. Better luck next time.

Debunker,

Give it a rest. Many of the animals on the ark had to be very young adults or even infants in order to sustain them. If you had to take a T. Rex on baord, would you want two grown ups or two infants? Which would be easier to feed and handle? Besides. There were not as many species of animals on earth then as now. How do you even know that Koala's were around yet.? The Koala is a KIND of animal. A species of another type of animal. For example. A wolf, coyote, fox, and poodle are different species of the ame KIND of animal - the canine. The modern cow, buffalo, etc. is the same KIND of animal derived from a single source. Same thing with deer, moose, antelope, and elf. Same with lions, tigers, bobcats, housecats, etc.

The Bible states that Noah had two of each KIND of animal, not two of each species of animal. I also like your 50 gallons of water comment. Being that the one continent divided into seven and water spewed up between them from "the great deep" and it rained for forty days and forty nights, I am quit sure that having enough water was the least of their worries. All he needed was some barrels to collect the water in. Duh!

JV,

Isaiah and David both predicted the coming of Christ. I am not sure what you wish to accomplish by arguing scripture, unless you are trying to get the war on Christmas re started all over again. You are not anti semitic are you? And yes the new Euro is going to have an image of a woman riding a beast. Did you not read the news? I am willing to bet that if I told you that concrete is hard, you would argue that it is soft. People like you just liek to argue I guess. It's the only reasonable explaination to your arguing with 100 percent news facts. Like I said, let me know your address and I will send you one of the new Euro money peices with a woman riding a beast when it comes out in May. Perhpas when you see it for yourself you might believe. Then again, you probably believe Obama's picture is on the 100 dollar bill and Goerge Washington was Darwin's wing man. You are silly.

Insufficient compos mentis.

You are referring to scientists who lived hundreds of years ago, and did not have the benefit of the detailed understanding of modern biology and geology - and indeed of modern physics - that we now have. They were raised (= indoctrinated) with the pervasive social religious superstitions of the day, and their more limited understanding of the universe left sufficient large gaps that it was a much more simple matter to avoid the conflict with their religious beliefs. Had many of them lived today, they would most likely have discarded their creationist beliefs in the face of scientific evidence, analysis and understanding.

This is not to say that some good scientists do not still hold religious beliefs. However, most who do are not creationist, and of those who are there is almost always a significant psychological scotoma or fantastical rationalisation in action in order to avoid cognitive dissonance.

The simple fact is that once science is applied to the questions of origin of the universe and the phenomenon of life, a magical sky fairy is not required to 'explain' them. Religious belief is a redundancy that hangs over from less sophisticated sociocultural and intellectual conditions. This is why religiosity and especially creationist fundamentalism is not widespread in scientific circles, especially outside the USA.

bernard said "This is why religiosity and especially creationist fundamentalism is not widespread in scientific circles, especially outside the USA"

wrong, you should have said:

"This is why religiosity and especially climate creationsm fundamentalism is extremely widespread in climate scientific circles, especially inside and outside the USA"

"Isaiah and David both predicted the coming of Christ."

Just repeating it doesn´t make it right.

IC

Again, Oh dear Oh dear Oh dear. You really haven't thought this through have you?

Firstly, the water. There would indeed have been heaps of it, but sadly, it would have mixed with the sea water in a very few days and would have been brackish and undrinkable.

Secondly, Koalas are not a 'kind' of bear. They are a marsupial bear which carry their young in a pouch. I am not aware of any other bear that does that. (You still have not explained how they got themselves back to Australia after the flood by the way)

As to your argument about 'kinds'. I would love to hear how a few 'kinds' would explode into thousands of species in a few thousand years. You are postulating a speed of evolution that even the most ardent evolutionist would not.

Finally, it is gratifying that you realise that feeding all these animals would have been a problem on the Ark. However, your solution of only taking infants on board is yet again, poorly thought through. Many of these animals, especially Elephants have long lactation periods. Years in the case of Elephants, which means they depend upon their parents for all that time. Also, just about all wild animals depend on their parents to teach them what to eat and how to survive. If you take that learning away, they would starve to death once they were released.

Take a course on animal ecology at night school, then see how you view the viability of the Ark story.

"I would love to hear how a few ‘kinds’ would explode into thousands of species in a few thousand years."

Evolved?

@Wow, Debunker, JV,

fact is, arguing with a fundamentalist about anything is tantamount to taking a trip to Absurdistan.

No matter how rational your own ideas, they will not really grasp what you are talking about or at least pretend they do and then come up with an absurd "explanation".

Of course, IC picked all these things up from the various website where creationists tout such nonsense. The obvious thing is that they make up thier "explanations" as they go along and do not give a hoot whether what tey are saying now is directly contradicted by something they have said before.

Most of these people are extremely dishonest, the rest are totally dumb and quite a few are both.

agreed Jan, but I always hope that a rigorous application of logic may make them question their ridiculous positions, if only a little.

BTW, Inefficient Combatant has unwittingly chosen a most apt name for himself. He is a perfect example of Don Rumsfeld's 'Unknown unknowns'. He doesn't know what he doesn't know. (goes for Kai too).

Bernard,

Scientists who lived "hundreds of years" ago makes no difference. These were men who knew that nature and the study of nature was the study o God's creation. Even some (few) modern scientists still believe in using science as a testimony to God's creation. There are over 30,000 names science officials who do not believe that your man made-up global warming is even real. The UN has all but ousted them for not complying with state mandated beliefs. Who cares what the UN thinks anyway?

Debunker,

If animals were so dependant on their parents, then what did the very first animals created in the Garden of Eden do when they had no parents?

Wow,

In order for ev0olution to occur, a species must GAIN DNA information. However, usually over time species LOSE information instead. it is this loss of inforation that forms variations from the original host. I know you will call it evolution, but evolution is non existant. For example, whatever the original canine was, the modern canine was derived from it. However, little has changed at all. They are still both canines with the same physical structure, but with a slightly different appearance.

In other words, a 100 foot long cold blooded reptile cannot over time change into a tiny handheld bird. That is impossible becuase one KIND of animal cannot turn into another KIND of animal if it had all eternity to do so.

Jan,

You peddle this notion of pagan earth worship (global warming) in order to spead someone else's money around the world and you call US dishonest? There is nothing in the universe more dishonest than a socialist. They are theives. Nothing less. They always want to give someone else's stuff away while haording for themselves. Stubborn, arrogant, selfish, socialists. The worst tribe of mankind to ever exist. At least one day socialism will be null, void, and destroyed.

Debuker has chosen the perfect name for himself too. The old "conspiracy theory" Obamanoid debunker type. Anytime someone says something he doesn;t like it is automatically a conspiracy that must be debunked. Too bad that most people just ignore this childish game, laugh and keep on doing what they are doing anyway.

"then what did the very first animals created in the Garden of Eden do when they had no parents?"

Yes, debunker, please explain that..... :-)))))))

Looks like IC would be better off in this thread:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/11/18/the-science-of-antediluvi…

Here's a website, where 101 false claims made by YECs are rebutted:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/101_evidences_for_a_young_age_of_the_Earth…

This once again proves how dishonest or stupid or both the young earth creationists are.

Inefficient Combatant,

'If animals were so dependant on their parents, then what did the very first animals created in the Garden of Eden do when they had no parents?'

WTF? is this supposed to be an argument? The whole point of this discussion is to show that stories like the garden of Eden and the biblical flood are meant to be allegorical, and if taken literally, they lead to absurdities such as your comment above.

' How do you even know that Koala’s were around yet.?

Again WTF?

How do you suppose then that the Koala came into existence? Spontaneous evolution in 6000 years, from what? Normal bears are of totally different physiology.

You have backed yourself in a corner and are just making stuff up, hoping nobody notices.

Insufficient Combatant is entirely accurate. You've brought a knife to a gunfight....

@Debunker,

"You have backed yourself in a corner and are just making stuff up"

It should go without saying that people like IC ALWAYS make things up. Lacking any solid argument they would have to remain silent otherwise.

No, that´s simply not true! People like IC don´t make things up. They ruminate things from other people who made them up.... ;-)

"Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen.” .... A great American Patriot

Debunker,

I prefer a knife. It gets the job done without alerting everyone else to your presence. Knives and arrows come in handy during an invasion. That's how the UN gun grabbers will be defeated. Silently, with knives, spears, and arrows laced with poison.

Anyway, back to the real topic. MY whole point is that I DO indeed take Genesis literally and my question is serious. How did animals who had no parents know what to do? The correct answer is simple. They had to learn what to do.

I have not backed myself into any corner at all. I do not back into corners, I stand my ground till the bitter end.

"They had to learn what to do."

Learning without a model?

IC

“Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured… but not everyone must prove they are a citizen.” …. A great American Patriot

Err.... Hello? What was the point of that? That is not even remotely connected with the discussion.

As for the 'knife to a gunfight' reference, that was clearly an allegorical reference. You may prefer a knife, but even you must realise that in a gunfight, you would not get close enough to use it, you really wouldn't stand a chance, Similarly, you have brought religious thinking based on a 3000 year old, flat earth cosmology to a science blog, so you are totally out gunned.

You are of course correct in one thing. You are being completely consistent. If you buy into the whole young Earth rubbish then a little thing like the impossibility of getting a Koala onto the Ark (and back to Oz again), would not be a problem. I mean, no doubt God could have created them in situ in Australia after the flood event! I mean, what's one more miracle after so many?

However, if you are trying to persuade us that the Flood was an actual, factual event, then you have failed because clearly, the Ark story couldn't be made to work without having quite a few associated miracles alongside. The very antithesis of the 'scientific' approach, which Creation 'Science', (as proposed by types like Ken Ham), is hoping to present.

.

3000 year old flat earth? Don't you mean "millions of years"?

If you sare trying to persuade me that evolution is real and that the earth is warming due to insignifiacent amounts of carbon that humans produce, then you have failed clearly, becuase the evolution and global warming/cooling/climate change(whichever phrase you have changed it to now) is impossible with a miracle.

Oh, and never openly bring a knife to a gunfight. Wait until the gunfighter is asleep or off his guard and get him from behind.

Hi Debunker

It is now obvious from his posts that IC's real name should be Edgar Allen. I think you can stop taking him seriously and accept that he doesn't really believe the nonsense he is putting forward.

mandas, debunker, jan, wow: you kill any discussion here with your content-free "contributions". please improve before you write

Feel free to set a good example, kai.

Yes I do believe in young earth creationism, Mandas.

No you don't.

Just repeating a lie over and over does not make it true. I am on to you, and will refer to you as EAP (for Edgar Allen Poe) from now on. It is true that there are some morons in this world who believe in the literal truth of the bible and all that entails, but you aren't one of them. Your inability to answer even the simplest question about the bible, and your cut and paste of Kent Hovind videos gives you away.

Hmm Mandas,

Could you please elaborate on your last post? What other information do you have on Inefficient Commentator that is not obvious from these posts?

It is quite obvious that IC is totally devoid of scientific knowledge, but he appears to know very little about young earth creationism as well, which is his claimed speciality.

He is also totally devoid of any critical thinking as well, but that goes without saying!

BTW, I am surprised that Kai still has the brass neck to continue posting on this forum, considering that he failed to take up both Coby's and Bernard J's offer to bet him on future polar sea ice extent (on anothr blog). Especially when he instigated the bet in the first place. You would think he would be too embarrassed to show his face.

debunker, what about you with betting? do you consider betting immoral or even criminal? would you risk your small money that mean global temperature in 2020 is lower than 1998?

Yes I do. I will refer to you a an agent of the new Wolrd Order from now on. Someone who is obsessed about global governance and a complete destruction of Christianity. You probably are not a mason or an illuminati member, but you are equally as evil and bad. Now go tell your reptile friends to break their alliance with the NWO and pledge their allegiance to free men who will grant them freedom in return after the war is over.

Mandas I am on to you. You are either a person who sincerely believes in evolution and does not believe the Bible OR you live in a place where the water has sodium fluoride in it and the radio waves have brainwashed you and you have become an agent of evil.

The Annunaki will tell you anything to keep you busy while they scheme and plot. Henceforth Mandas, you will be referred to as Annunaki slave boy.

"You are either a person who sincerely believes in evolution and does not believe the Bible ..."

no one is expected to BELIEVE in evolution, because there is a host of evidence in favour of it, whereas only fools who cannot perceive reality believe the bible.

The bible is also called "the boo of books" - and rightly so, becauses it consists of a multitude of different books, written by many different people over a fairly long period of time. And any one book contradicts most of the others, very often an individual book even contradicts itself, like genesis, where you find two mutually exclusive accounts of the "creation" of the world, of which neither makes sense. Both are naive and simplistic would-be explanations of how primitive, bronze-age herders thought the world had begun. It beats me how anyone could take one or the other of these accounts seriously.

sorry typo: "the book of books" - no pun intended.

They take these accounts seriouly becuase these event are true. You probably believe Jesus never existed either, yet our calenders express his birth and ressurection - BC and AD.

There is no use arguing with you. You do not believe it all now, but on judgemnet day you will and then it will be too late. Good luck.

Oh, and I know globalists changed BC and AD to BCE and CE, but it still means the same.

BCE - Before Christ's Era
CE - Christ's Era

So, next time some smarty pants liberal globalist decides to chnage something he might want to think real hard about its meaning becuase people like me will just find a way to change it back. And just for the record, I still use BC and AD and I DO NOT mark lines through my zeros or sevens on paper. I am not in Europe.

@IC,

"yet our calenders express his birth and ressurection [sic!] – BC and AD."

That's a real gem of logic! :-) (And wrong as a statement, because the supposed resurrection hs nothing to do with BC or AD)

You have just proven that TIW also exists, because he is the origin of the word Tuesday:

"The English name is derived from Old English Tiwesdæg and Middle English Tewesday, meaning "Tīw's Day", the day of Tiw or Týr, the god of single combat, victory and heroic glory in Norse mythology."

And that also proves the existence of all the other gods that were celebrated in human history, because following your "logic" they must exist when people arrange a special day for them.

"you probably believe Jesus never existed either"

Oh, I know there were many Jesuses at the time; it was a very common name. As for the Jesus who is said to have performed miracles like turning water into wine or feeding 5000 people on five loaves of bread and two fishes it is certain that he never existed. These are just made up stories.

Have you ever heard of Robin Hood? We now a lot of stories about him and yet, he never existed. It is just the same with the Jesus of the NT. There may be a kernel of truth in it (am itinerant preacher named Jesus got into trouble with the authorities (Romans) and was executed, then his henchmen made up all these stories about what a wonderful man he had been.) but when you get to the bottom of it it is just fairy tales.

poor english jan: yo wanted to say "know" ("wissen" in german) and not "now" ("jetzt","nun" in german)

please improve your german elementary school english to make yourself understood here. thank you!

Now I know that Kai is a fool.

(Not really just NOW, because it has been known for a long time to all readers here and everywhere else where Kai is up to his mischief that he is a willfully ignorant phoney.) :-)

Seems to me that Jesus was healing the sick, rasiing the dead, and performing many miracles BEFORE the Romans had Him crucified. His permonace of miracles and His preaching is what made people follow Him and is ultimately what got him into trouble with both the Jewish elders and the Romans. I think you need to re-read the stories again. Seems like you got it backwards. Then again, if you believe in fairy tales like monkeys turning into men just becuase a few years passed by, then I can certainly unerstand how Satan has entrapped your mind.

fuck off you annoying pointless pair of timewasting twats.

and that goes for you too, you cowardly little fuck, coby

@IC,

"Seems like you got it backwards."

Going backwards is your domain.

The gospels were first put into writing decades after the supposed crucifiction, so there was plenty of time for oriental fantastical embellishment as we know it from a host of other texts that were traded down over longer periods of time.

Fact is that there is no historical truth in the miracle tales whatsoever. Miracles do not happen today, will not happen in future and definitely did not happen then. Jesus as a person was a mortal, maybe a gifted orator and probably a rabble rouser, so the authorities deemed hin a danger to the public safety and order. Reason enough to have him put away.

Most other things that you read in the gospels are later additions of "facts" solely made up for the purpose of creating a myth around him that was not there while he was still alive.

Fact is, everything people claim to "know" about Jesus is little more than speculation. The gospels are not reliable as a source of information, for one, because they are only based on hearsay not on solid facts, and for two that in those days such reports were never expected to be factully precise, as lond as they served a certain purpose. So if the idea of the gospel was to convince people of Jesus's greatness, this is exactly hwat one would expect to find in them: stories about miracles.

@Wow

I understand your anger. As we continue t annoy you, you continue to harvest the rage that Satan has implanted into your tiny mind. Once that rage has been fully harvested, you can then condens your evil into action as you have shown. You failed in this pathetic attempt to get me to curse you. Your temptation failed. Try again.

Jan, believe what you will. I give up on you. You can go on saying these things, but I know in my hear the Bible is true and you nor any other figure on this planet has the power nor the authority to chnage that.

@IC,

You can also believe what you will, but why do you try to proselytise reasonable people with your nonsense?

The bible may have some merit as a piece of literature and quite a few present-day idioms in your and my language have been derived from the first translations of the bible into those languages, but that's about all.

The bible cannot be true, because it contradicts itself in so many places, the writings are not coherent, because they have so many different authors with different backgrounds and from different eras. There is no consistent message like you would expect from something what you think the bible is (your god's inerrant word(s)).

All you and all the other bible thumbers do is cherry-pick. You take out bits and pieces which you find suitable for your purpose and just ignore the rest that would debunk your contortions.

The bible stems from a time where primitive people had naive ideas about the world about them and cannot serve as a guideline for modern democratic societies. If you had your way, we would be forced to live in a society that would not be much different from an Arabic theocracy under sharia law. We would move backwards in science and other fileds of knowledge, because your bible would forbid any more progress that can be made there.

Yes, give up on me, because you have nothing in your "reasoning" that could convince me. Your view of the world is akin to that of the Dark Ages and they became the Dark Ages because people ignored what great men had found out about the physical world and give in to that narrow attitude towards life that is encouraged by your bible. Go on with your silly beliefs, convince the gullible but do not continue to spread your nonsense where you cannot find like-minded people. You are wasting out time.

This is definitely the last reaction you will get from me.

Typo: You are wasting our time.

Look what happens when I leave you kids alone in the house for a while! How could you DO this?

You KNOW what happens when those kids from down the street get in here. They wreck the joint. And you just let it all happen around you. What a mess! I suppose you thought it was fun while it lasted. Fun?! I'll show you fun. If you're looking for pocket money this week, forget it.

It is interesting to note that many creationists try to establish a link between DArwin and Hilter, claiming that Hitler only carried out ideas which had been put forward by Darwin.

Nothing could be further from the truth. In reality, the Nazis in their vast majority were not only Christians (very few atheists among them) they were in act creationists, because they believed that they as Aryans were directly derived from Adam and Eve and the garden of Eden, while what they called "sub-human races" were a separate creation:

http://coelsblog.wordpress.com/2011/11/08/nazi-racial-ideology-was-reli…

Nazi ideology was firmly rooted in the Christian belief system, the majority of the guards and killers in concentration camp were both Protestant and Catholic Christians, who probably believed that they were doing their god's will, when they murdered Jews.

Linking Nazi ideology and the fact of Darwinian evolution is by no means the only falsification of history perpetrated by creationists and like-minded people.

jan, i am very concerned about your mental condition: it is really very suspicious that you talk so much about hitler, the more as you are a typical representative of middle to lower class german society. i therefore consider it paramount that you expose here your position regarding the terrible history of your people related to mass murder during the second world war due to hitler and nsdap nazism and hope sincerely that you personally nor your whole family have nothing at all to do with all the crimes committed by your people which adored so much hitler but also darwin

You can give it up guys. EAP (nee IC) is definitely a Poe troll. He really doesn't believe the shit he writes - he is just saying it to try to get a rise. Take this for example:

"I will refer to you a an agent of the new Wolrd Order from now on. Someone who is obsessed about global governance and a complete destruction of Christianity. You probably are not a mason or an illuminati member, but you are equally as evil and bad. Now go tell your reptile friends to break their alliance with the NWO and pledge their allegiance to free men who will grant them freedom in return after the war is over......Mandas I am on to you. You are either a person who sincerely believes in evolution and does not believe the Bible OR you live in a place where the water has sodium fluoride in it and the radio waves have brainwashed you and you have become an agent of evil.

That is such an obvious attempt at trolling using Poe that it actually fails as Poe - it is not subtle enough. Radio waves? Sodium fluoride? Reptile friends? You need to a better job if you want to write good Poe, EAP - and we know you can do better. Keep quoting from Kent Hovind - he is good for a laugh.

About the only things accurate in that nonsense is that I can't wait for the destruction of all religion, including christianity, and for the start of the new green world order where all people who profess a religious belief are tortured until they confess, then killed according to their irrational belief system. EAP would have been crucified upside down if he actually believed what he wrote.

Believe in evolution? Not me, I don't believe anything. I accept evidence, and since I can see evolution happening around me, I would be pretty stupid not to accept that it occurs.

Don't believe in the bible? Oh I know it exists, so I am not sure how I would not believe in it. But then, I also know that Grimm's Fairy Stories exists too. And it is just as accurate an account as all the various versions of the bible.

Jan

You are actually wasting your own time. I have all eternity. With what you believe there is no eternity for you.

Mandas,

I accept evidence of CREATION all around me. Evolution is a fairy tale for grown ups. Oh, and your new green world order is already here. The only problem is, people like me would rather die fighting than to comply with your tyranny. It's ok, we all know who wins in the end. End of Christianity? Well when Jesus comes back with a billion or so immortal soldiers, let me know how that works out for you.

"The only problem is, people like me would rather die fighting than to comply with your tyranny.

I am perfectly happy with that as a concept. Please hurry up and die.

Adelady

"You KNOW what happens when those kids from down the street get in here. They wreck the joint. And you just let it all happen around you. What a mess! I suppose you thought it was fun while it lasted. Fun?! I’ll show you fun. If you’re looking for pocket money this week, forget it.

Oh please mummy, we will be good. What if we ignore the troll and make him go home. Can we keep playing please?

Mandas has it.

And it's a lame-arse looser who keeps playing the poe so hard after blantant self-exposure. It takes a very developed and specific pathology to persist no matter what - perhaps a greater psychological pathology than is required to hold fast to childish superstitions long after adult reasoning demonstrates the implausibility them.

jan: "Typo: You are wasting our time"

as somebody like you with reduced english language capabilities and dramatic limitations to express appropriately what you intend to say in understandable words i have to inform you that you again committed a fundamental language error:

somebody else cannot waste your time, but only you yourself can waste your time. for example, i consider it a waste of my time to try to explain to you why darwin was so incredibly limited, a waste of my time because you and others here, like mandas, bernard, wow etc., are not able to discuss fundamental new insights of molecular biology and molecular genetics because of severe lacks of information, comprehension and above all basic formation in the science involved.. therefore you better shut up and write somewhere else where you would not elicit so much anger and bad emotions like here.

I see Mandas is one of them tyrant types. He would make a good commie dictator - killing Christians and Jews and such. He probably would take up sides with Mulsim terrorists though. Sounds about right for someone his speed.

"Hurry up and die"? Seriously? You need help son. At least when I do "hurry up and die" I know that I will be in a place of peace and NOT where you are going.

My point was this - your little world is anti-freedom and some men would risk life and limb to keep people like you from implementing a world of tyranny that your little brain thinks is so good. In other words, free men will alwasy stand up and fight to the death to keep people like you from being dictator.

"The only problem is, people like me would rather die fighting than to comply with your tyranny."

How does a fundamentalist christian fight? I thought, he has to turn the other cheek....

[...]i consider it a waste of my time to try to explain to you why darwin was so incredibly limited, a waste of my time because you and others here, like mandas, bernard, wow etc., are not able to discuss fundamental new insights of molecular biology and molecular genetics because of severe lacks of information, comprehension and above all basic formation in the science involved..

Knock yourself out Kai and start explaining how molecular biology supports creationism. Dazzle us with your advanced understanding.

"How does a fundamentalist christian fight? I thought, he has to turn the other cheek…."

No JV. Fundamentalist christians don't actually follow the tenets of christianity. They yell and selectively quote from the bible - but they don't actually believe in the teachings of jesus.

Turn the other cheek? Never! Love your enemies? They would rather kill them.

They are hypocrites, every last one of them. They even ignore the lessons about hypocrisy in the bible - you know, the ones about he who is without sin casting the first stone and about removing the plank from their own eye. There isn't a single fundamentalist christian who doesn't love to spend his time criticising everyone else for their supposed sins - unlike their hero, who preached against such behaviour. Perhaps if they had an education above grade 3 (which is difficult if you are homeschooled by morons). Maybe then they would be able to actually understand what is written in the bible, rather than having to rely on the interpretations of other other morons with similar levels of education - but with an uncanny ability to exploit the gullible.

[snipped homophobic and abusive portion of comment]

Hi Coby

Is it possible to moderate the thread so you put an identifying mark on the sock-puppet wow, so we know it is not the real wow?

I know it's obvious from the fact that the sock-puppet wow is nothing more than a trolling moron, but something to show the difference would be appreciated.

Fundamentalist atheists are pretty hypocritcal at times as well. Sure they preach about the environment but usually they do most of the littering. Sure they preach about what everyone ELSE should be eating and drinking, but the message stops at their dinner table.

How does a fundamentalist Christian fight you ask? I suppose the same way a fundamental "tolerant" liberal fights. You preach tolerance and equality, but you are the most intolerant of all souls on earth. Sure you are tolerant when Muslims fly planes into buildings, but just let someone put up a nativity scene at CHRISTmas and you go all to pieces trying to tear it down. Tolerance for all or tolerance for none. Which is it mandas, the NWO slave boy.

Sure the Bible says to turn the other cheek.However, if your enemy is an aatheist like you and he does not believe that Jesus ever existed, then why follow a rule that was made by someone who never existed?

Perhaps Christians are not really supposed to fight, but self defense is not unlawful not immoral. Turning the other cheek implies a tolerance of one's enemies in regards to non believers, but when a nation of unbelievers tries to take over the world and wipe you from existance, turning the other cheek is not an option any longer. Self defense is implied. Did Israel turn the other cheek when muslim terrorists funded by Iran fire hundreds of rockets into their land? NOPE. They responded appropriately.

Mandas, do me a favor and do not preach to me tolerance until you learn some yourself. Liberals like you are the most intolerant beings in the universe. You preach to me about me expecting everyone to believe in the Bible, but you fal to realize that you do the EXACT same thing with your pagan earth worship global warming ponzi scheme and you mud to monky to man bearded turtle herder evolution fantasies. That's right. Darwin was nothing but a miserable old crank turtle herder who was so angry at God he thought he would start a anti-God revolution with his "theory". Nice. Because of him several million Jews died. Thank you "science". "Science" has killed more people than you realize. The A-bomb, chemical warfare, predator drones - all derived from your beloved worshiped "science". So, in theory your science God has killed more than my REAL God. When we get a chance to catch up by exterminating liberals in the day of judgement, get back to me.

"Mandas, do me a favor and do not preach to me tolerance until you learn some yourself.

It's not me preaching tolerance EAP - it's jesus. Why aren't you following his teachings? Oh that's right - you're a hypocrite. Me - I never claimed to be tolerant.

"...your pagan earth worship global warming ponzi scheme and you mud to monky to man bearded turtle herder evolution fantasies. That’s right. Darwin was nothing but a miserable old crank turtle herder..."

Really? Is that the best you can do? Come on EAP, we know you can write better Poe than that.

Hi mandas,

Unfortunately this is the real Wow. Same email and same IP address as all 880 other comments he's left. The comment above is not the first I've had to edit very recently, not sure what is going on with him...

His excuse is he does not like my moderation policy of almost no moderation, so I guess he wants to prove it is necessary by being so over the top.

I find it very unpleasant to deal with.

That's right mandas, you never claimed to be tolerant. You claimed to by tyrannical instead. So tell me mandas, when the Muslim Brotherhood along with Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda and other groups start killing Christians becuase they refuse to comply with sharia law, should the Christians defend themselves or offer to get their heads chopped off willingly? There is a line between fighting and defensive course of action.

You are a hypocrit as well. You peach global warming religion but I bet you litter more than most people who laugh at the fantasy of global warming. Come on admit it. You preach envirofascism, but you follow your own tirades against others who use "fossil fuels" do you? I will write to Hugo Chavez and make a recommendation to him. I recommend you to be on his terrorist FATAH team to enforce "justice". You would fit well in a world like that. The ony problem is, people like you always want control, but you never get it becuase somone always takes a stand against your tyranny. You should try to go run Iraq since you like being a Saddam Hussein type figure. A sun God worshipper with a christian white man hatred complex. Sounds like you and Saddam would have been good pals. Only thing is, your European American (white) bretheren would have found you hiding in your hole while we laugh at you.

"So tell me mandas, when the Muslim Brotherhood along with Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda and other groups start killing Christians becuase they refuse to comply with sharia law, should the Christians defend themselves or offer to get their heads chopped off willingly?

Willingly or not, I don't care. As long as you die. And what do you mean "start killing christians"? Having they been doing the work of god and killing followers of false religions like you for some time now?

"I will write to Hugo Chavez and make a recommendation to him."

You know his address? I bet he is waiting on tenterhooks to hear from you.

"You should try to go run Iraq since you like being a Saddam Hussein type figure.

Naaahhh. Iraq is too hot and dry - and there are far too many religious extremists (americans) there. I like your first suggestion. Venezuala sounds much nicer. And they treat americans with the respect they deserve.

"You peach global warming religion but I bet you litter more than most people who laugh at the fantasy of global warming."

Ahhh - I think we have found the problem! Ok EAP, read this next bit carefully and memorise it. Say it over and over until you get it right.
Global warming is not caused by litter. It is caused by anthropogenic greenhouse gases.

Now have you got that? I know it is difficult since you are obviously scientifically illiterate, but keep repeating it until you have it ingrained in your memory. There's a good troll.

"“Science” has killed more people than you realize."

What an ignorant twat!

He does not seem to realise that in fact science has saved billions of lives.

Where would most of us be if had not been for the modern achievements of science like fertilsers, vaccination, medicine, technical inventions, a.s.o? Right, we just would not exist, before our ancestors would have died as infants and never left any offspring.

IC is someone who longs back to the Dark Ages, when ignorant hordes of bible thumbers terrorised people in the western world. Only by emancipating from their terror was it possible to develop modern science and a modern and humane world.

Early christian law was not any different from sharia law. Why don't people realise that the koran is based on the OT and its teachings, like an "eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth", "go kill your son when he is disobedient", "kill or enslave everyone who does not share your belief" and many, many more. IC is a member of the christian taliban and if he and his ilk had their say, we would have to go looking for a place, where independent people who a still in command of logical thinking could live in peace.

Fortunately these people are on the losing side since nothing is more convincing than the truth. And the truth is with those people who can use reason and logic to understand the world around them and are not forced to look into an old and outdated book full of error and lies that they call their bible.

"Unfortunately this is the real Wow"

Yup, certainly is!

;course you're only egging me on with talking about me, you chickenshit, so really this is entirely YOUR problem.

Diddums.

What a self-centred prick you are. If you get slammed, oh is that a problem.

Anyone else? Hey, it's free speech, baby!

mandas, by the way, the graphic is a visual hash of the email address entered. Being a hash, it isn't easy to dupe, though you can get similar-enough-to-be-confusing. However, that would be easy to spot since you'd do a lot of trying and failing.

I have had several try to pretend to be me, but pointing out the changed art by the post gets them to fuck off.

I still don't get what you are complaining about. No one around here does more "slamming" than you do, so you should quit whining and take it if you want to dish it out.

And so far I have only edited your comments to remove the more vulgar examples of you homo-erotic fixation. Grow up.

wow

I am not sure why you have a bee in your bonnet about this, but I would like to suggest that if you want to attack the various trolls and associated morons then go ahead. But attacking coby for an open policy regarding moderation and language is rather silly.

I would much rather that he allow everyone to express themselves virtually without interference than to have my comments deleted. It's up to you, but please think about the implications of your actions.

A prophecy against Damascus:
“See, Damascus will no longer be a city
but will become a heap of ruins.
2 The cities of Aroer will be deserted
and left to flocks, which will lie down,
with no one to make them afraid.
3 The fortified city will disappear from Ephraim,
and royal power from Damascus;
the remnant of Aram will be
like the glory of the Israelites,”
declares the Lord Almighty.

Isaiah 17:1-3

Prophecy is happening before our eyes. 2800 yeas ago Isaiah predicted Damascus would fall. As Al Qaeda rebels pound Assad in Syria to make way for a global coming caliphate this prophecy is about to come true within the next few weeks.

Who says the bible isn't accurate now?

---------------

Mandas, Venezualea is hot too. A there are alot of Catholics there and even as many terror organizations as Iraq wih some of the same connections. The only difference is that Iraq is ruled by Islamic law and Venezuela is ruled by communist law. Then again, not much difference in the two. They both hate Jews and Christians equally and both hate individual sovereignty concepts and neither can get hanlde the thought of someone else having more money than themselves. You would fit nicely into either culture. I am sure Al Qaeda would accept you into their ranks. Socialists, communists, and Islamic radicals have been combining forces to eradicate Christians since WW2. Why should they stop now? Hitler used militant Islam to help him with his hatred of the Jews. Little did the islamic nuts know that when Hitler wa done using them to kill Jews, they would be next on the target list.

Global warming is NOT caused by any kind of gas. it is a made up fallacy designed to fund UN poulation control programs. It is a ponzi scheme. it does not exist. Man does not make CO2 even remotely close to what nature makes. Volcanoes and ocean vents naturally spew CO2 at a much large volume than every pollutant man has ever produced since man has existed. Got that? if not I will keep repeating it until you do. AL GORE needs to be in prison. Ted Turner, Bloomberg, most the EPA members, and most of the UN members need to be there as well, preferably in the same cell. Now they are discussing another tax - the carbon tax. How about we create the left wing fascist dictator tax and that way we can collect about a trillion dollars an hour since there seems to be so many of them out there. I do agree that there should be a carbon tax AND that left wingers should be the ony people to pay it. Non believers should not have to ay into a scam like this.

If for some unknown reason our brilliant legislators do incorporate a so called carbon tax, then I place a curse on them. May an asteroid hit on the very spot and very second of the sign of the law and may the only suvivors be those who do not believe in carbon fairies.

Jan,

Yes science has saved lives, but has kille dmore than has saved. Abortion has taken over 55 million lives in the US alone since the immoral and sinful law of Roe v. wade was suspiciously passed. Abortion has kille more Americans than the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, WWI, WW2, Vietnam, The Gulf War, Iraq (2003) and the war in Afghanistan combined. Total it up worldwide and it a few BILLION babies killed ... that we know about.

The prophecy says Damascus is ruled by a "Royal Power".

It isn't.

Ergo, the bible is wrong. Again.

That's much better EAP. Your last post was more like your Poe of old.

Iraq ruled by islamic law. Brilliant satire!
Hitler using islamic law. Great Poe!
AGW not caused by any type of gas. Hilarious!
Volcanoes and ocean vents. Marvellous!
Left wing dictator tax. Priceless!
Curse on legislators. Wonderful idiocy!
Roe vs Wade "suspiciously" passed. Completely nutty!
Abortions killing babies. Fantastic insanity!

The way you have used conspiracy theories and words that make yourself sound like a complete lunatic is the perfect way to show just how insane fundies really are.

Love your work.

I still don't get what you keep posting to me about, cobe.

I guess you like the abuse, eh, you spineless coward! Well, I guess you can't keep your cherished self-image of "defender of the speech" when it comes to yourself.

Much better to blame everyone else for the crap you're letting on here. Even if you can't actually make anything coherent stick. Because

a) you're a moron
b) you're running on faith (of this Free Speech Uber Alles bollocks)

But I have the freedom to call you out on your chickenshit operation and your preening arrogance.

Well it looks as if wow's descent into meaningless irrelevance is complete.

wow, are you completely devoid of any acceptable minimum standard behavior? yes you are a typical low-class poorly raised street brat with zero understanding of climate and weather science. please shut your small mouth for about two months.

Uh, Assad is of British royal decent is he not?

ergo, it is correct?

mandas,

AHHHH. Now it comes out. Ok Mandas, which bearue are you working for? Ever since Oama took office his adminsitration has been had soem fetish over discounting people who tell thr truth and calling it a "conspiracy theory". So, tell me which federal agency do you work for?

Abortions killing babies is insane?Well, not exactly since there is a baby present inside of the womb until dr. doom and gloom abortion doctor sucks out the brains, saws off the limbs and removes the now DEAD baby from the MOTHER's womb.

Let's face it, no matter what you call it - baby, fetus, zygote, neprocatilizitises, or whatever, it is still ALIVE until the abortionist makes it UN alive. So, no matter what you chnage the name of it to, you are still killing a living thing inside of another living thing. Get it?

Hitler did not use Islamic law. He used islamic arabs to help him eliminate Jews.

Iraq is not completely ruled by Islamic law - yet. Egypt is getting pretty close to sharia law. Syria will be next. So, instead of killing out Al Qaeda we are now arming them and helping them to establish their own network of countries in which they will turn into a Muslim extremist superstate when all is said and done?Way to go CIA. Instead of getting rid of our enemies, the funded them and made more and gave them more power. Yay for us.

Roes v wade would NOT have been passed unless a cetain judge ruling on the case had not had a neice who was pregnant and wanted an abortion. He was influenced by outside forces. If it were not for that Roe V. Wade would not have passed. He should have been impeached and exiled.

oh and for the record, it is your beloved "science" that says ocean vents and volcanoes produce CO2. I guess until now you probably thought they produced cotton candy and gold bullion?

"Ever since Oama took office his adminsitration has been had soem fetish over discounting people who tell thr truth and calling it a “conspiracy theory”. So, tell me which federal agency do you work for?"

It looks as though reading and comprehension are not EAP's strong suit. Perhaps if you actually read any of my posts before you go off on your Poe you would know how stupid that question really is. Go on, give it a go. Read back over some of my posts and try to answer the question yourself. The information is all there you know. But I will tell you something that is not contained in any of my posts - I am a graduate of the Air Force Air War College. Does that help? (still do the reading though - that hint might be misleading)

" it is your beloved “science” that says ocean vents and volcanoes produce CO2."

Golly gee. Really? So you do read some science then? Here is some more for your reading pleasure, courtesy of the US Geological Survey:

"The published estimates of the global CO2 emission rate for all degassing subaerial (on land) and submarine volcanoes lie in a range from 0.13 gigaton to 0.44 gigaton per year (Gerlach, 1991; Varekamp et al., 1992; Allard, 1992; Sano and Williams, 1996; Marty and Tolstikhin, 1998). The preferred global estimates of the authors of these studies range from about 0.15 to 0.26 gigaton per year. The 35-gigaton projected anthropogenic CO2 emission for 2010 is about 80 to 270 times larger than the respective maximum and minimum annual global volcanic CO2 emission estimates. It is 135 times larger than the highest preferred global volcanic CO2 estimate of 0.26 gigaton per year (Marty and Tolstikhin, 1998).
http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/hazards/gas/climate.php

Oh - and the things removed from a woman's body during an abortion are neither babies nor alive - they are unwanted accumulations of cells. It's a pity your mother didn't have one.

Actually it does help to know that you were once a federal employee - Air Force. Were you ever inducted into the Above Top Secet society? I bet you weren't. If you were, then my apologies as you lie in more danger than do I.

Uh, anything with a beating herat is ALIVE you dummy. Unwanted accumulation of cells? Like I said, you can rename it a trillion times an hour, but it is a living organism. To normal people, it is often referred to as a BABY?

Have you ever witnessed a pregnant women being asked the question, "What gender will your unwanted clump of cells be when it becomes a human on the delivery table?"

Mandas, you are an unwanted clump of cells. I am an unwanted clump of cells. Every living organisism on earth fits your description of a accumulation of cells. However, you should take a biology class and learn that the accumulation of cells has a name - LIFE, derived from term ALIVE. Even individual cells are ALIVE!

When a woman is pregnant, there is living human being inside of her. End of story. Case Closed. Jury dismissed. Class dismissed. There is no debate to counter the fact that a BABY is INSIDE of the mother.

If that is not the case then consider just not calling the woman a mother until AFTER the clump of cells is pushed out.

Oh, and your silly little study was done by people who are promoting the global warming scam. Kind of like getting Mexican drug cartels to speak to students at school about NOT using drugs. Your study was extraordinarily biased. Get some people without bias towards socialism to do your study and the outcome will differ. Fudging the numbers prove nothing. Go to the library or go to a bookstore that sells old books. Then look at waht old encyclopedias say about volcanoes and CO2. See, in the olds days facts were printed. Now "scienctists" fudge numbers so they can gain more money and recognition.

Going back to the "conspiracy theory" crap ... In the beginning of the administration, any conservative who posted online comments, wrote articles about the president, or commented on video negatively about this administration was to be labeled as a conspiracy theorists so as not to raise awareness. Luckily this propoganda hit piece of crap illegal legislation never caught on. Of course some kooks on the left fell for it and started labeling people as conspiracy theorists. We just rolled out eyes, ignored, and kept doing what we were doing. The Obamanoids failed.

Then again when Obamacare kicks in and conservatives are the targets of death panels, we can officially call it Obamacide.

Oh, and your side killing billions of babies through illegal and immoral satanic practices of abortion has a name - Infanticide.

Just hilarious as usual EAP.

First of all, great Poe about old books and volcanoes. I wonder who wrote those old books? Could it have been......... scientists? Of course, in the world of fundies, science stops as soon as it agrees with biblical principles. You must have a problem with Copernicus then.

"Actually it does help to know that you were once a federal employee – Air Force."

Bzzzzzzzz - wrong. You didn't do any reading did you? Try again!

"However, you should take a biology class....

Not only have I taken them, I have taught them.

"If that is not the case then consider just not calling the woman a mother until AFTER the clump of cells is pushed out. "

First accurate thing you have said. A woman is NOT called a mother until after she has given birth - never has been, never will be.

"I am an unwanted clump of cells..."

Nailed it!

"Uh, anything with a beating herat is ALIVE you dummy.

Couple of videos of hearts beating, right here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaCvA_0uMEs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmhBEeEMqYo

So I assume that you think the baby inside of the mother is not really a baby until it comes out of the womb?

NOT!

Science stops when it agrees with Biblical principles eh?

Hmmm. I wonder how Isaac Newton felt about that? As a matter of fact, up until about 7 decades ago this seperation of science and God was relatively non existant. All of the major founders of modern scientiic princples were men of God and used science to study the nature that God created.

Ever hear of Louis Pasteur? Issac Newton?

Ever hear of William Kirby? Take a look at famous astronomer John Herschel and his quote about science doscovery and the Bible.

I bet you never heard of Riemann Geometry have you? Bernhard Riemann was a mathematical genius who was adament in proving the Book of Genesis by using math to do it.

James Simpson, the father of anestesiology, got his ideas of putting people to sleep from the book of Genesis where it talked about God putting Adam into a deep sleep to remove a rib from him.

If it were not for Gd fearing science men like him and amny others, your own study field may not even exist at all.

So, your logic that science and religion cannot co-exist is not only WRONG, it deprives discovery from happening.

Jean Deluc, the man who coined the term Geology, was a young earth creationist and a pioneer of modern geology.

James Parkinson, the man who discovered Parkinson's disease among other discoveries was also a studier of geology and was the first to recognize the plant origin of oil and coal. He wrote extensivley on the formation of oil and coal due to - get this, the Biblical Flood of Noah's day!

Do I have to keep naming more men of God who used Biblical references and knowledge to make science discoveries? I can name a few hundred more just to let you know how your point is null and void now.

Science and God has not always gotten along, but for the most part, early pioneer science observers were "radical christian right wing extremists" by today's modern views. The combined science and God. Whta happned? Who is the dillweed who came up with the idea that men of scince cannot believe in God? Name me soem names so that I can laugh at them in the afterlife.

Heh, I don't think that even a die-hard poe would be that well versed in Creationist pseudo-rebuttal.

Name me soem [sic] names so that I can laugh at them in the afterlife.

With that sort of attitude you won't be invited into Heaven, even if it exists.

You hypocritical fundies are the worse advertisement for religion that one could find. You're on a par with the Catholic kiddie-fiddler priests - all pious and righteous in public, and black-hearted misanthropes when out of reach of justice.

Thanks. Well technically there will not be much laughing at liberals in the afterlife. It will be a time of great sadness seeing so many people cast into hell for not accepting Jesus as savior while so many who did accept it are rewarded.

"Abortion has taken over 55 million lives in the US alone since the immoral and sinful law of Roe v. wade was suspiciously passed. ....... Total it up worldwide and it a few BILLION babies killed … that we know about."

Roe v Wade is a new kid on the block in terms of abortion. You might have noticed that we've had sticks and stones, knitting needles and crochet hooks for a very long time. Most abortions occur in countries where abortion is illegal and contraception is difficult if not impossible to obtain.

As for "biblical" attitudes to baby versus foetus, the people who know most about this are the ones who stick entirely to the Old Testament for their rules on everything, including pregnancy. If you look at pregnancy, abortion and childbirth guidance to Jewish midwives you'll find that they rely on purely biblical notions. That a baby isn't a baby until it has taken its first breath. If labour is obstructed (shoulder dystocia, for example) and the mother's life is in danger midwives are instructed to save the mother even if it means killing and dismembering the baby. If pregnancy is causing health problems for the mother - abortion is perfectly legitimate and it does not, repeat *not*, involve killing a 'baby'. Babies are not babies until they breathe - according to the bible.

If you want to go by biblical guidance - use it properly.

Pfft. The biggest baby killer in history is God.

Pregnancy not carried to term?

God killed the baby.

Billions a year die from that mass murdering scumbag god.

If he existed.

wow, mandas, jan and all other climate hypcrites: now as you have again fiercely lost a climate battle, the ridiculous one at doha

Well technically there will not be much laughing at liberals in the afterlife.

So now liberals aren't welcome in heaven?

Poe or fundie, you/re a waste of space.

55 million known abortion have occured in the USA since 1973. Pregnancy is preventable even without your acclaimed contraception - especially in non married couples. It's called abstinence.

Sure you will bring up the rape subject, but how many pregnancies occur due to rape compared with unwanted pregnancies due to immoral fornication? Many babies are killed becuase the mother simply does not want the baby. She does not want the responsibility that her actions has now given her. In other words most abortions occur becuase it is more convenient for the mother to murder the infant inside of her than to take care of it and raise it.

Now, I know you will broing up your predicted subject about taking care of the baby after it is born and how the taxpayers should fund someone else's poor decisions. Tell me, if you go light a building on fire, should the police lock you up for arson, or should they pick some random person and lock him/her up for that crime? Why should you or I pay for someone else's sin?

"Pregnancy is preventable even without your acclaimed contraception – especially in non married couples. It’s called abstinence."

No form of contraception is 100% effective, not even abstinence.

"Many babies are killed becuase the mother simply does not want the baby. She does not want the responsibility that her actions has now given her. In other words most abortions occur becuase it is more convenient for the mother to murder the infant inside of her than to take care of it and raise it.....Now, I know you will broing up your predicted subject about taking care of the baby "

So what? That's fantastic that young girls have the good sense to do that. And I don't actually give a flying fuck what you think about abortions.

Abortions are legal and that rule is not going to change in the foreseeable future and that's the end of the story. Your opinion on the subject is meaningless, just as your opinion on climate change, evolution and the non-existence of an after life.

Perhaps if abortions had been legal in your grandmother's time she could have aborted the useless lump of cells that went on to become your mother. That would have avoided her growing into an abusive parent who should have been gaoled for twisting and warping her son's mind.

"Why should you or I pay for someone else’s sin?"

If you want to stay with USA figures alone, the last I heard 60+% of women seeking abortions already had one or more children, *and* most of these women were married. Most of them mentioned financial problems due to lack of healthcare coverage for themselves or their children - or - inadequate income or loss of job (or job hours) meaning they were having difficulty caring for their existing children and couldn't cope with another one, and couldn't afford healthcare because of that anyway. The other big issue, of course, is losing your job because you're pregnant or being unable to work when pregnant, which is a huge issue if you already have rent to pay and children to feed. (One big advantage of healthcare coverage is access to procedures for long-term contraception like IUD insertion or to reduced cost prescriptions for hormone tablets.)

The idea that abortions are an indulgence for promiscuous idle layabouts is a bit silly. For the most part it's women who are coping, sometimes just barely, but coping, with the children they have and/or the circumstances they're in, but a child, another child or a known-to-be difficult pregnancy is just beyond them.

"Well technically there will not be much laughing at liberals in the afterlife.

There is no laughing at all in the afterlife, because - technically - dead people don't laugh.

"No form of contraception is 100% effective, not even abstinence."

Yeah, the silly cunts even have the VIRGIN BIRTH to show abstinence doesn't stop pregancy!

wow, your are a great asshole and totally insane: why the hell do you dare to attack brave pregnants, one of those have even given birth to such an uneducated brat like you

"Why should you or I pay for someone else’s sin?

Looks like EAP does not believe in emulating the actions of his hero. What's the matter EAP? Don't you think you should try to act like jesus?

Wow, how many "virgin" births have you ever heard of except for Jesus? Well, perhaps aliens implantng semen into a virgin woman. It could happen I suppose, but really? Seriously? Virgin births? You say that liek it is commonplace.

Perhaps you need to talk to mommy and let her explain the birds and the bees becuase you clearly missed that little talk. A woman cannot get pregnant WITHOUT sperm fetilizing the egg and that can only happen so many different ways and abstinence is NOT one of them.

Why should you or I pay for someone else’s sin?

There are billions of people in the Third World, and there will be billions of people in the future (not to forget the rest of the biosphere) asking this exact same question with respect to the Western world's warming of the planet with their carbon emissions.

Apparently the answer is "because Westerners have the right to fuck up things for everyone else as long as it means that Westerners can munch through the planet's resources like a locust plague, all for the cause of living indolent lives of convenience.

It seems to me that murdering in slow motion a huge swath of life on Earth is about the biggest sin that anyone could commit. And how many fundie Christians and other conservative "law abiders"are lining up to protest?

Does IC really believe that the birth of Jesus is the only ancient myth claiming a virgin birth? He must be pretty ignorant then. There are many myths around virgins giving birth to supposedly important people:

According to one story, the Roman Emperor Augustus's mother was worshipping in the temple of Apollo when she fell asleep and was impregnated by the god [Suetonius Lives of the Caesars: Augustus 94]
Other examples of virgin born Gods
Krishna was born of the virgin Devaki
Savior Dionysus was born of the virgin Semele.
Buddha too was born of a virgin,
The old Teutonic goddess Hertha was a virgin impregnated by the heavenly Spirit and bore a son.
Scandinavian Frigga was impregnated by the All-Father Odin and bore Balder, the healer and savior of mankind.
Source: http://www.entheology.org/pocm/pagan_origins_virgin_birth.html

There is one thing that ALL these stories - including that of Jesus's birth - have in common: their credibility is next to zero.

@IC

"Uh, Assad is of British royal decent is he not?

ergo, it is correct? (re the Damascus Prophecy)

I think IC is making stuff up again. The Assad family originated in the northern Syrian mountains in the village of Qardaha. Assad' grandfather's only claim to fame was that he was a good fighter. Unless IC can give us a credible reference to the Assad's being of British Royal descent (not decent), then the prophecy is clearly wrong.

As in fact is the much discussed Isaiah 7.14 prophecy. IC apparently cannot grasp the fact that the original Hebrew bible says 'a young woman will be with child'. The Hebrew word used is 'Almah' for young woman, which was badly translated into 'parthenos' (Greek for virgin), in the Septuagint, which is where Matthew got it from. If Isaiah had wished to indicate a virgin, he could have used the specific Hebrew word for virgin 'bethulah', and given that this was supposed to be the most important prophecy in the Bible,one can't imagine that he would have been so sloppy with his language.

It is amazing that this whole cult of the Virgin Mary is due to one, single, sloppy, translation. Not only that, but if you look at the original context of the prophecy, it is clear that it concerned the current King at the time, King Ahaz, and couldn't, even remotely refer to an event 700 years later.

Although I have no expectation that IC will bother to look at it, I provide the following link which provides the best explanation I have yet seen of the origins of this so called prophecy:

http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/virgin.html

Any rational person who reads this would have to conclude that there is in fact, no prophecy here at all. Who could have foreseen that such a trivial translation error would result in such a monumental misunderstanding? Certainly, not Isaiah.

@Debunker,

thank you for your source, it makes interesting reading. Here is another part that might make IC look embarrassed:

http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/prophecies.html

It deals with the false and unfulfilled prophecies of the bible and also puts an end to the false claim that the bible contains ANY genuine prophecies at all.

As most people know and as can easily be proven from reality, such a thing as a prophecy cannot exist, if "prophecy" is used in the sense that it predicts any event in human history that is not predetermined by the physics of the universe (e. g., solar eclipses and the like).

Contrary to the belief of millions of people there has actually NEVER been any detailed prophecy that came true. Of course, a statement like "There will be a terrible earthquake in the east." will sooner or later be fulfilled, but only because of its vagueness.

Despite the claims of thousands of frauds and madmen, none of the so-called "seers", "prophets", "fortune-tellers", "astrologers", a.s.o. has ever been able to predict anything of any importance beforehand. But they certainly excel in making prophecies AFTER the event.

Try and look for anybody who predicted WW I or WW II, 9/11 or the tsunami of 2004, to name just a few notable events. You won't find anyone!

Most laughable are all the attempts of "experts" to explain the "prophecies" made by Nostradamus. And again, millions of people fall prey to those fraudulous pranksters although it is really easy to unmask them: just get hold of (but beware NOT TO BUY one) a copy of a "Nostradamus Yearbook" from 2012 or earlier and compare what has been "predicted" by what really happen or did not happen for that matter. That should sober up any believer.

Yes @Jan,

This whole 'prophecy' methodology consist of nothing more sophisticated than thumbing through the Bible, looking for anything even vaguely relevant to your current times, regardless of whether you take it out of context or not. This ridiculously naive approach is constantly used by fundamentalists trying to show that we are living in 'the end times'. Every now and then, one of these idiots will stick his neck out and predict a specific date for the 'second coming', with laughably predictable results! After 2000 years of unsuccessful predictions, you would think they would get the message, but apparently not...

It gets worse guys.

If you think about the whole concept of a prophesy, then it must be based on one of two possibilities. The first is that the prophesy is based on the likelihood of something coming true. Such a prophesy is nothing more than a prediction based on odds - eg that such and such will win the next election. That is not a real prophesy, just an estimate of likely events based on current knowledge.

The second is that a certain event will come true because the future has been foreseen. If that is possible - to foresee the future - then it means that the future is fixed and cannot be changed. If it could, it would mean that it cannot be foreseen and therefore prophesies would not be possible.

Of course, if the future is fixed, then there is no free will and everything that we do or say is already predetermined. Nothing we do can change the future.

That's a real problem for the god botherers. Because if the future is fixed, it means that a god - just like us mere mortals - has no ability to influence the future either. Their god, by their own definition, is not omnipotent. It's pretty damn obvious when you think about it. If their god is all knowing and can know the future, that means the future is fixed and the god cannot change it (ie it is not omnipotent). However, if the god is omnipotent and can change the future by influencing current events, then that god is not all knowing because the future is variable and prophesy is not possible.

So either free will exists, and prophesies are not possible. Or the future is fixed, prophesy is possible, and there is no free will.

That's an even bigger problem for the god botherers, because without free will it means that their god must have predetermined every single action by every single human over the whole course of history. That makes the god directly responsbile for every evil act in history , including those that led to humans eating from the tree of knowledge, all the evil that led to the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc, etc. Their god must have known they were going to occur - indeed, it set them in motion itself.

But then, logic and reason have never been the strong point of the fundie.

Beranard,

Sorry, but westerner are not warming the earth with our magical carbon fairies. Your fairy tale climate change/pagan earth worship has to end somewhere.

Debunker,

2000 years of failed predictions eh?

I urge you to look up the hundreds of predictions from the old testament that have already been fulfilled.

mandas, your forgot to add Darwin, Che, Chavez, Putin, Ted Turner, Soros,and Obama to your list.

Sorry, but westerner are not warming the earth with our magical carbon fairies.

Oh really?

Based on what disproof of the science, exactly?

Five paragraphs or less please, with reference to the best countering material that you have.

Oh, and for the record science does not require the use of magic or of fairies, nor does it refer to them - unlike your superstitious religion, which is all about non-evidenced sky fairies.

It looks as though EAP does not know the difference between a prediction and a prophesy.

Any fool can make a prediction, because it is just determining likely results based on circumstances.

However, a prophesy is a statement about what will occur based on knowledge of the future. And as I have shown, that is impossible.

"mandas, your forgot to add Darwin, Che, Chavez, Putin, Ted Turner, Soros,and Obama to your list.

You do know what "etc, etc" means, right?

And well done in your attempt to trivialise the issue by focussing on semantics. How about you address the substance of the post.

mandas, as a warfare pilot of the us airforce, where does your qualification on climate creationisms come from: is it only that you are primitive liberal follower fs such a deviated brain as al gore??

From being sane and able to read I reckon.

Two things you and IC can never manage.

@IC

"I urge you to look up the hundreds of predictions from the old testament that have already been fulfilled"

Could you give us a few references to the above please?

I and many others on this blog have already explained why the Isaiah 7 prophecy cannot be considered a prophecy at all. The original Hebrew made no mention of 'Virgin', and a young woman being with child is a pretty common occurrence given our current world population of 7 billion. I urge you to go to the actual source, the Hebrew old testament, which is presumably the one God wrote, because all others are just translations. If you actually bother to check up on this, you will find that I am correct.

As for failed prophecies, here are a couple:

"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." (Matthew 16:28)

"But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:27)

What is being said here is perfectly clear: Jesus is saying to his followers that some of them will still be alive when he returns to inaugurate the kingdom of God. It is quite clear. He, himself, expected to return within the lifetime of his supporters. It is now 2000 years later and where is he?

If the master himself can't get it right, then what hope is there for the other minor prophets?

Oh, and @IC,

Where is the proof that the house of Assad is related to the British Royal family?

That would be interesting to see....

"mandas, as a warfare pilot of the us airforce, where does your qualification on climate creationisms come from"

I checked my qualifications again, and could find no record of ever being a pilot in the USAF. Looks like kai's ability to read and comprehend what he reads is right up there with EAP's

Bernard, who graciously said

"Based on what disproof of the science, exactly?"

Uh, the science that there is no such thing as carbon fairies who go around warming the earth with their carbon dust. Oh, and the fact that antarctica was not always a ice wasteland. Climate changes becuase of natural earth cycles and sun cycles, not because you say so and want to redistribute someone else's stuff and use earth worship as a false flag way of doing it. We know your tricks, now take your bone go.

mandas,

yes I know wat etc. means but important names like Soros, Turner the imfamous rapist and terrorist che must be named. They are so corrup and so much a villain against free men that everyone should be aware of their crimes.

Debumper,

Here are 60 propecies fulfilled. I will see if I can locate for you the rest of them. http://www.bible.ca/b-prophecy-60.htm

I understand whee you are going with "“But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.” (Luke 9:27)" . I am not sure what happened to every single one of His followers as their lives and deaths are not recorded. We know that at least two people in the Old Testament NEVER died. The grandson of Adam was taken by God while he was living. He never died. It could have happened to one of His diciples as well, but unlikely.

Try again.

Oh, their names were Enoch and Elijah ...

When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years. Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away."

GENESIS 5:21-24

"As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind."

II KINGS 2:11

Remember Enoch? The father of Methuselah who was the oldest living human in history? 969 years old. Sources outside of the Bible indicate he died 7 days before the great flood of Noah's time.

"mandas,

yes I know wat etc. means but important names like Soros, Turner the imfamous rapist and terrorist che must be named. They are so corrup and so much a villain against free men that everyone should be aware of their crimes.

And still waiting for a response to the substance of my post, rather than a red herring about semantics. And if you are going to focus on semantics, could you make even a token attempt to write english, rather than the usual gibberish.

Perhaps if your mother hadn't been such a child abuser and allowed you to get a decent education, we wouldn't have this problem.

And for those of us interestes in the actual science and mechanisms behind evolution, here is an interesting article about a paper on the evolution of limbs:
http://theconversation.edu.au/they-came-from-the-sea-the-gene-behind-li…

The paper itself is here:
http://www.cell.com/developmental-cell/abstract/S1534-5807%2812%2900478…

My mother was no child abuser. I had an regular education in a government school. Perhaps that's why I never learned your version of english. If my mother had sent me toa real school insead of government school, perhaps my english would be better. You see, in government school the focus is on tolerance, gays, evolution, global warming fairies, and liberalism. Ina real school, the focus is on subjects like english, reading, math, and real science.

Evolution is a fairy tale for grown ups. Limbs were made in place on everything that is supposed to have limbs. A few thousand years ago, mind you .

Try again.

Uh, the science that there is no such thing as carbon fairies who go around warming the earth with their carbon dust.

No, of course not, and that's not anything to which science subscribes.

Physicists and chemists understand that asymmetric gas molecules contain dipole moments within their inter-atomic bonds, which makes them active absorbers of electromagnetic radiation. This is the science: it is empirically provable, and quantifiable, and it is this character of asymmetric gas molecules that enables them to trap the flux of infrared radiation back to space - with the ultimate consequence of warming the planet.

None of the magic that so appeals to your imagination is required.

Climate changes becuase [sic] of natural earth cycles and sun cycles...

Of course it does.

But this does not mean that it changes only as a result of non-human forcings. You are (quite impressively) engaging in the logical fallacies of "affirming the consequent" , "causal reductionism", and ignoratio elenchi - others can perhaps identify more.

If humans alter the parameters of a forcing - in this case the atmospheric concentration of 'greenhouse' gases - then the planet will warm in response, regardless of whether non-human factors caused warming events in the past.

...not because you say so...

It's not warming because I "say so". You are engaging in the "straw man" version of a "red herring" logical fallacy.

You must try harder. Preferably by learning basic science and logical thinking.

...and want to redistribute someone else’s stuff and use earth worship as a false flag way of doing it.

You can't help but commit logical fallatio at every turn, can you? Let's see...

1) Appeal to fear
2) Appeal to motive
3) Poisoning the well
4) Straw man (again)

You've never darkened the doorway of a higher education institution, have you? Likely you didn't much darken doorways of classrooms much past midway through high school.

If you had, you'd perhaps comprehend the intellectual depauperacy of your understanding of the world around you.

"Limbs were made in place on everything that is supposed to have limbs. A few thousand years ago, mind you "

EAP - once again - failed to read my post. I said - very clearly:

"...for those of us interested in the actual science and mechanisms behind evolution"

See? I said it was for thinkers, and I specifically ruled out comments from morons.

And I am still awaiting a response to the substance of my post on prophesies. Looks like EAP finds commenting on logic too difficult, and can only focus on semantics.

Bernard,

I have darkened the sacred doors of the much over rated education halls. However, that does not mean that I actually believe what the old bearded buzzard profession was spouting off about. Just becuase someone goes to a class that teaches evolution, does not mean that the student actually believes it. He could be forced against his will to take such classes to graduate. It is entirely possible to take these nonsense lectures and pass all tests, but still NOT believe what the professor or the left wing biased textbook had to offer. Oh, and the whole global warming nonsense has ALWAYS been about redistribution of wealth disguised as a legitimate issue. Your side is losing ground on this issue becuase we see through your lies and tricks. We will not comply.

mandas,

go back and read my post. I gave you an example of 60 prophecies that came true. Try again.

mandas, go back and read my post. I gave you an example of 60 prophecies that came true. Try again.

As you are obviously a moron, I will say this very simply so you get it.

I am not asking you for a list of 'prophesies' that came true. Any idiot can provide a list of thousands of predictions that have come true. That is not, nor has it ever been, a point of contention. Now.....

In order to make a 'prophesy', as opposed to a 'prediction', it is required that you are able to see the future in order to be able to see the event that you are prophesising. Do you understand so far?

If you are able to see the future, it means that the future is fixed - it cannot be changed. Because if the future can be changed, then you cannot see it because it has not yet been determined. It might contain entirely different events to what you might have expected. An asteriod might strike the earth for example, or the potential great grandfather of the prophesised person might have an accident and die before he has children. Still with me?

If the future is fixed, then that means there is no free will. Because if we have free will, then we can make the future whatever we want, and it would be impossible to 'prophesise'. Are you getting this?

So the question is this. Is it possible to make a prophesy, or do we have free will?

Given that you have been claiming over and over again that there are lots of prophesies in the bible, I guess you must accept that humans do not have free will.

Since there is no free will, and therefore the future (and the past) is fixed and cannot be changed, that means that everything that has happened in the entire course of history must have been predetermined at the very beginning. In your system of belief, that means that when your god created the universe, your god also predetermined every single event that has occured since, and every single event that will occur in the future. Do you understand this basic concept?

And therefore, since it is your god that predetermined every single event in the history of the universe, then your god is to blame for every single action by every single individual. We are blameless, because it is not our fault - everything we do and are was predetermined by your god. There cannot be any sin or sinners, because we and our actions have been set for all time by your god. Jesus did not 'die for our sins' because we are not sinners. Your god is the source of all evil, and is completely responsible for everything that occurs.

Alternatively, you could state that we do have free will, and everything I have said is not the actual situation. But of course, if we have free will (and are sinners etc), then prophesies are not possible. Unfortunately, if you say that, then it means the bible is wrong when it claims they are.

Oh dear, what a conundrum!

@IC

"We know that at least two people in the Old Testament NEVER died. The grandson of Adam was taken by God while he was living. He never died. It could have happened to one of His diciples as well, but unlikely."

I am not sure where you are going with this. In order to save this prophecy you are either saying that at least one of JC's followers could still be alive 2000 years later, which frankly is an insane proposition; or you are trying to imply that some of these followers might have been taken up to heaven before they died. To bolster this, you provide the Luke version of the prophecy. However, the Matthew version is quite explicit:

"“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28)"

This cannot possibly be twisted any other way. This is not about someone being lifted up prematurely, this is about Jesus coming back and inaugurating his kingdom. This is the obvious meaning of the verse, and this was why it was such a huge problem for early Christians when Christ didn't show up!

I have looked at your list of fulfilled prophecies and I see that the Isaiah 'Virgin' prophecy is right up there at number 2. Given that I have already shown that Matthew arrived at this prophecy by quote mining the Septuagint and seizing on an incorrect translation, isn't it obvious that virtually all of these prophecies were arrived at by the same method?

This was standard methodology in those days. Nobody knew any details of Christ;s early life, So Matthew and luke went looking through the old testament for any prophecy that may be vaguely related. As proof of this, they both came up with radically different birth stories, because, different prophecies interested them. For example, the born of a Virgin prophecy does not appear in Luke, as one would expect, because that was Matthews idea.

Again, the born in Bethlehem prophecy does not appear in Luke because he had devised an entirely different story of Jesus' nativity. In fact, the two birth stories are mutually contradictory, which means that both cannot be true. In nearly two thousand years of trying by some of the brightest theologians the church could produce, (frankly, that is not saying much), the two narratives have not been successfully reconciled. So these are not prophecies at all but made up stories that used the old testament for inspiration, A fuller discussion of the mutual inconsistencies of the nativity stories is here:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/quirinius.html

This discussion also dispenses with the Herod killing the children prophecy, which again, only appears in Matthew and is totally unhistorical because we know that Herod was already dead when Jesus was born.

This raises a major question. How is it possible for something that was written by God, (a perfect being), to contradict itself? How could God say one thing here, and then say something else there about the same event? This should cause you to lose sleep at night IC. The bible is clearly not inerrant, so it cannot be taken literally as which version are you going to take? Animals going into the ark by pairs or seven sets of pairs? Both are in the bible, and both cannot possible be true.

It is only by giving up critical thought completely that anyone can maintain that every word in the bible is true.

“We know that at least two people in the Old Testament NEVER died."

Any of them around when Jesus was talking? 'cos the fairy tale forgot to mention it.

Well if they nevr died, then I suppose they were around. If they were taken to Heaven then yes they were around when Jesus was talking becuase they met Him before He came to earth as human.

Mandas, the prophets did not all see into the future. They were given either visions or verbal statements as prophecies. John was given visions of how the world would end. Some prophets never saw visions but were only verbally told what would happen and was told to record the event.

Debunker,

Methuselah lived 969 years before he died. Elijah and Enoch did not die, but were taken to Heaven while they still lived, so no they were not here on earth so to speak when jesus was preaching, but if you remember the story of where Jesus was transfigured on the mountain, Moses and Elijah appeared before Jesus and the disciples and peter wanted to set up three tents. One for Jesus, one for Moses, and one for Elijah. So, technically yes Elijah and many others were around to see Jesus preach.

"Mandas, the prophets did not all see into the future. They were given either visions or verbal statements as prophecies. John was given visions of how the world would end. Some prophets never saw visions but were only verbally told what would happen and was told to record the event."

So then, you are confirming that prophesies exist, even if the 'prophets' did not see the events for themselves. They were 'told' or 'shown' the future by your god.

So therefore the future must be fixed, otherwise it could not be seen. As a consequence of that, humans obviously have no free will and therefore cannot be sinners as your god is personally responsible for setting in train every action over the entire course of history. Every act by everyone - evil and otherwise - is directly attributal to your god. Bit of an arsehole really when you think about it.

But that won't be a problem for you, because you won't think about it will you?

Except one apparently was taken ALIVE up to heaven.

I.e. not on the earth where Jesus said his stuff (hint: no such event happened, hence why it is contradictory)

And you have to "suppose" they were there? Why didn't they say? Were the people who "God" had decided needed SPECIAL DISPENSATION to live forever didn't deserve a mention? None of the people there thought "Hang on, that looks like that bloke from the Book Of Judah, you know, the dude hundreds and thousands of years old!"?

But you have to "suppose" this? And why is your "suppose" correct?

I would call it circular logic except you're a fuckwit and logic never entered once into your head.

Remember the words, Ignorand Arsehole:

““Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28)”

If they weren't standing there then they don't count as fulfilling any prophesy.

It's also a dick move if he meant "well, I mean those two dudes who will never die". Rather small-print lawyer-prick of him, wasn't it.

Never new The Sun Of God was both a lawyer and a prick.

Debunker.

Speaking of Herod dying before Jesus was born reminds me of a site that I thoroughly enjoyed, and that I mentioned a month or so ago:

http://www.project-reason.org/gallery3/image/105/

I've not yet seen any Creationist unpick that Sydney Harbour Bridge of damning self-contradiction.

Insufficient compos mentis.

Exactly where is Heaven? Is it hiding somewhere on Earth? Is it in our solar system? Where's Hell?

If Heaven is on Earth why is it that we can't detect it? If it's in outer space, exactly how did God whisk the undying there without them popping in the vacuum of space?

If they're somehow shielded from the cold and vacuum of space, and if Heaven is beyond at least Proxima Centauri, when would the undying have reached Heaven? If they did it in a particular finite time, do you know how much energy God would have expended to move them there, or did he suspend the laws of physics for this event too?

If they're so extraordinarily god-like that they can travel infinitely far through deep space in corporeal form, why then not just do the dying thing and trot the soul over to Heaven's Gate? After all, the physical body is just a vessel, is it not?

mandas, nothing is preordained. The prophets were just shown what would happen.

Bernard,

I think that you are not grasping the concept of a God who spoke the unoverse into exisance in one sentence. If He can do this, then I am quite sure He is capable of handling your physics problem there.

After Jesus was ressurected and was in PHYSICAL flesh form he appeared to the disciples who were behind closed and locked doors. he simply teleported from one place to another in the blink of an eye.

I have heard weird stories of thsi happeneing to people before, but this particualr story was intersting. The disciles though He was a spirit becuase he appeared behind locked doors like that, but He was in physical form. It was Thomas who doubted it and touched his scars from the nails. ergo, the term Doubting Thomas.

"mandas, nothing is preordained. The prophets were just shown what would happen."

Are you really so retarded that you can't see the contradiction in what you just wrote? I guess that's why you can't see all the contradictions in your book of fairy stories - you're retarded.

I think that you are not grasping the concept of a God who spoke the unoverse [sic] into exisance [sic] in one sentence.

Oh, I grasp the concept quite well; I had to endure years of Sunday school and church attendance, which gives me a very good understanding of the Christian mythologies.

I just don't see any evidence for instantaneous creation, and I see a whole lot that argues exactly the opposite.

If He can do this, then I am quite sure He is capable of handling your physics problem there.

After Jesus was ressurected and was in PHYSICAL flesh form he appeared to the disciples who were behind closed and locked doors. he simply teleported from one place to another in the blink of an eye.

So what you're saying is that God suspends the laws of physics, but only when scientists and other rational observers aren't looking.

Do you not see anything wrong with this febrile rationalisation?

You do know, don't you, that psychological pathologies and manipulations, including magician-type tricks, can fool those who ascribe inexplicable events to the supernatural?

I have heard weird stories of thsi [sic] happeneing [sic] to people before, but this particualr [sic] story was intersting [sic]. The disciles [sic] though [sic] He was a spirit becuase [sic] he appeared behind locked doors like that, but He was in physical form.

"Weird stories"? Other, anonymous "people"?

Riiight... That's definitely evidence of miraculous intervention.

And I've heard that the British royal family is actually a nest of reptilian aliens.

Whose story is the more credible?

Going back up the thread...

I have darkened the sacred doors of the much over rated education halls. However, that does not mean that I actually believe what the old bearded buzzard profession was spouting off about. Just becuase [sic] someone goes to a class that teaches evolution, does not mean that the student actually believes it. He could be forced against his will to take such classes to graduate. It is entirely possible to take these nonsense lectures and pass all tests, but still NOT believe what the professor or the left wing biased textbook had to offer.

I note that your answer does not confirm that you actually have any tertiary education, and especially any in science, and indeed that you have ever stepped foot on a tertiary education campus. I note also that you subscribe to fundamentalist conspiracy thinking about intellectualism and rationalist learning, and that your standards of grammar, spelling, and sentence- and concept-structure indicate a junior high school (at best) level of attainment.

I really hope that you are merely a (compulsively obsessive) poe. Otherwise you are a very emotionally- and intellectually-crippled individual.

And it's that latter sort that are a serious danger to modern society.

bernard, i offically confirm and confess that you really behave as a emotionally- and intellectually-crippled individual.

you have passed the impairment exam

yes Kai, bernard is a cripple from the neck up.

You are a danger to society with your bans on frredom and religion like a dictator.

Yes I went to collge but I often ignored dribble like evolution. Sure I answered the questions with the expected answers derived from the biased textbook, but I never believed it.

Oh my, mandas said the R word. I thought we were polotically correct around here.

I do not know if the british royal family are reptilians or not. I never met one. There is only one way to ell, but for thse of us who know how to determine that, it is our little secret. We would allow them to take you. You would be stupid enough to go with them though. If you ever want to see one just go to Salt Lake City and hang around the mall after hours. Or go to the Black Mountains of Nevada near Henderson. If you do see one don;t threaten it. It will kill you and feast on your blood.

Some say Obama is a drone of the reptilians. Highly unlikely since drones have more intellugence than what he seems to be showing. However, there is that little hint of socialist dictatorship personality disorder that he often demostrates when talking about confiscating other people's stuff. Perhaps he is a drone. I wonder if he ever got probed. Expains the infatuation with homos and their global conquest to pillage all holes of the same sex.

Oh my, mandas said the R word. I thought we were polotically correct around here.

Nope - you are retarded.

And really EAP?

That last post of yours is the worst Poe ever. Come on. If you want people to fall for it, you have to stop with the shit about reptilians etc. Everyone knows that fundies are morons and you can write just about any bullshit and people will actually believe that a fundy really thinks that way. But when you go on about reptilians, secret worlds, drones, getting probed and homosexual world conquest, you won't fool anyone.

Go back to your normal biblical bullshit.

"Oh, and the whole global warming nonsense has ALWAYS been about redistribution of wealth disguised as a legitimate issue. Your side is losing ground on this issue becuase we see through your lies and tricks. We will not comply."

Whyever not? What people like me want to see is industrialists making buckets of profits and workers earning buckets of wages. We just want them to do this in a cleaner, more modern version of industry. Work ethic, profitability, freedom from dirty air and dirty water, safer jobs, healthier communities. None of these things are opposed to capitalism, only to pig-headed refusal to modernise. Sometimes it feels like arguing with buggy whip makers of a century ago. Yes, your industry is old-fashioned, out of date and on its way out. Find a new way to make more money in more modern industries.

But I suspect that many people see such modernisation through those warped old specs that turn every new idea and every modern vision into some grotesque 1950s stalinist horror film. All that's needed is to take off the specs and you will see the 21st century more clearly.

It appears to be useless trying to use logic and reason with IC. He is totally immune to it. He has been shown how the story of the Ark cannot possibly be true, because it doesn't explain how Kolas (and other marsupials) could possibly have arrived in Australia (amongst other major inconsistencies). His answer was to suggest a miraculous special creation of these animals, sometime after the flood.

He has been shown that the Isaiah prophecy was not a prophecy at all because it was based on a mistranslation (he hasn't even bothered to answer that, no doubt because he can't).

Then he was shown two other failed prophecies by none other than the Master himself, Jesus. Again his only recourse was to speculate that either some of JC's disciples had been taken up prior to dying in the first place, or that at least one of these disciples was still alive! This sort of idiotic response simply beggars belief.

Then it has been pointed out to him on numerous occasions, with chapter and verse supplied, that the bible often contradicts itself, therefore at least one of these versions cannot be true! He again has no answer for this.

A sane and rational person would say, hmmm, perhaps this hypothesis of Biblical innerancy may not be valid. Perhaps I should begin to examine my belief system. I know that this is the process I went through when I found that all those 'true' stories I had been taught at Sunday school were actually pious fabrications.

There is a principle in science called "Occam's Razor", which states that if you have two competing theories to explain the same facts, then the simplest one is most likely to be correct.

So how do we explain the myriad inconsistencies, contradictions, errors of fact and general nonsense like individuals living 969 years, or surviving 3 days in the belly of a Whale (which even the ancient Hebrews knew was allegorical), in a book purportedly written by God?

Instead of attempting to explain miracles by postulating more miracles ad infinitum, perhaps IC should just admit the obvious, that the Bible was written by ancient peoples who had not the first idea of science, or the Historical method, and that it is just a collection of disparate stories with little historical value hence not literally true.

That this would take a fundamental and painful re-alignment of IC's belief system is indisputable, but he needs to start somewhere if he wants to join us in the 21st Century.

@Debunker,

"So how do we explain the myriad inconsistencies

From what I have heard many fundies "argue" that these things are there because their god wants to test his followers, how strong their belief is.

Which leaves us with yet another inconsistency: The very same god who is supposed to have given us our brains expects us NOT to use them, NOT to look at the evidence, NOT to use logic and reason when dealing with the world! In other words that god must want us to perish by ignoring all the means of survival our brains get offer us.

These fundies are completely out of their minds and always have been.

mandas, do you think that there is a correlation between homosexuality and global warming?

Yes Jan,

I am familiar with that 'argument', if it can be so called. God has written a giant lie on the heavens, creating a universe billions of light years old, just so that he can test the faith of a few recalcitrant fundies. To believe in such a malicious God makes a mockery of their own intellect, such as it is.

@ Debunker

Nope. Try again. I will not comply. Try again ...

At mandas,

same as what I told debunker. ...

@ kai

Yes there is a correlation between gayism and the pagan earth worship movement. Both issues have a common denominator - global governnance and the banishment of Christianity. The one thing that they do not understand is that we will not comply.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tech/environment/item/13919-new-report-ma…
Looks like good news for most normal people and bad news for global warming kooks.

@Debunker,

I followed IC's link, but stopped reading immediately when I came across this name: Monckton

Monckton is a preposterously idiotic liar, a fraudster, a paranoid conspiracy advocate who sees world communism marching behind everything that does not meet with his approval.

No wonder, other idiots like IC are his most ardent fans.

http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/03/23/the-demise-of-climate-deni…

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/georgemonbiot/2010/jun/03/monckto…

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/georgemonbiot/2010/jun/08/monckto…

Sigh.... @IC

I am not asking you to comply with anything. I am just asking you to use the brains your god presumably gave you.

Do you agree that the Bible contradicts itself in places? You must, because I and others on this blog have shown you chapter and verse examples. If so, you have to agree that at least those bits cannot have been written by God. Ergo, the Bible is not inerrant and not every word is literally true, contrary to your assertion.

This is simple logic, not rocket science. If you do not agree that the Bible contradicts itself, then explain how these things pointed out previously by myself and others are not contradictions?

Use your brains for Christ's sake!

Hilarious video about one of the dumbest persons ever to appear on American TV:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcUo9Tk0A-s

and another that shows what dumbasses these bible-thumbers are:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5dSyT50Cs8

Well, talking about the subject, just two more must-sees debuning creationists' nonsense:

part 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzoI0_IBpS4

part 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9w26JXXpWU

Absolutely hilarious and it once more explains why creationists must be laughed about.

Monckton's latest caper thouroughly debunked:

http://skepticalscience.com/global-warming-lesson-for-monckton-and-co.h…

jan, your utter-primitive judgement of monckton "Monckton is a preposterously idiotic liar, a fraudster, a paranoid conspiracy advocate who sees world communism marching behind everything that does not meet with his approval" reveals infinitely more about your moral and intellectual impairments and deficiencies than about monckton. monckton is at least 10 times more intelligent than you, debunker, wow, whirlpool and mandas together. your problem simply is: because monckton tells the truth you hate him for it in your undescribable mediocrity

@Debunker,

what do you think of this oxymoron:

"because monckton tells the truth"

Monckton is a notorious liar who cannot help but give false statements all the time, especially when what he says serves his deceiving agenda.

@Jan,

Thanks, I followed the link also and not surprisingly, nothing new there, just some recycled bullshit that has been previously debunked many times. Yes, any time you see Monckton quoted you can tell you are entering a delusional, fact free zone. He has no scientific qualifications whatsoever, being only a classics major. He has also claimed to have discovered a cure for AIDS, so is mega delusional. Frankly, he is so crazy, that if I were a denialist, I would refuse to have him anywhere near for fear of casting even more ridicule on the rest of them.

debunker, jan on monckton: stupid bla bla bla, further stupid bla, bla, bla

when you blame somebody a liar then you need to proof this:

show three examples where lord monckton was a liar

1: ??

2: ??

3: ??

please reference location and content

@ Jan

socialism and communism is growing, not shrinking. Hw many liberals do you know advocating redistribution of other people's stuff? Most of them. That is the OPPOSITE of capitalism.

There is an intriguing paper on the early evolution of terrestrial organisms - or maybe not - here:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature11777.html

And if you want to see a bit of scientific bloodshed and disagreement over the results, have a look at some of the comments in this media article, which discusses the paper and the reactions to its conclusions:
http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2012/12/13/3653112.htm

That's what a real scientific debate among experts looks like!.

Hi Coby,

After all the insane commentary on this thread, I was just looking over the original post and I realised something.

The jesus in the cartoon is not a 'supply side' jesus at all - he is a 'demand side' jesus. The apprentic job was created not because tax breaks were given to the manufacturer, they were created because the consumer had the money to buy the product.

Which - of course - is the best way to create jobs and to stimulate the economy.

show three examples where lord monckton was a liar

1) Losing his house to pay the Eternity prize.

2) Being a member of the House of Lords

3) Hilter youth

And that's without even getting in to climatological stuff!

For background on Monckton lies, try:

http://www.desmogblog.com/christopher-monckton-lies-damn-lies-or-stagge…

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brendan-demelle/monckton-lies-to-ap-denie…

http://timpanogos.wordpress.com/2009/10/18/monckton-lies-again-and-agai…

http://www.politicususa.com/christopher-monckton-man-lies-credentials-q…

http://www.independentaustralia.net/tag/monckton-lies/

http://climatecrocks.com/2011/08/10/more-monckton-lies-deranged-nationa…

http://www.skepticalscience.com/mishmash-Monckton-misrepresentation.html

http://hot-topic.co.nz/monckton-is-a-fraud/

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eternity_puzzle&oldid=92117879

http://climateforce.net/2011/08/11/evidence-is-in-monckton-the-patholog…

Oh heck, why not just do the bloody obvious thing...?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=monckton+lies

@Kai

"show three examples where Monckton was a liar"

This is actually too easy. Monckton lies just about every time he opens his mouth, even about trivial things:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brendan-demelle/monckton-lies-to-ap-denie…

And here's another one where Monckton claims to have authored a peer reviewed paper:

http://hot-topic.co.nz/monckton-high-priest-of-climate-sceptics-tells-l…

It appears he doesn't even know what peer review is.

Claims to have a Nobel Peace prize:

http://www.readfearn.com/2011/07/monckton-not-in-control-of-his-own-bio…

claims to have been appointed as expert reviewer to the IPCC:

http://www.independentaustralia.net/2012/environment/christopher-monckt…

errr Nope. He merely registered, which anyone can do, that doesn't mean he will be appointed.

I could go on. These examples don't even include his lies about Global Warming, which are legion. He even lies about stuff he doesn't need to lie about...

Sorry Bernard, you got there before me. Good example of how often he lies. The only lie of his we had in common was the Hitler Youth comment.... God knows why he even bothered to deny that, as it was on TV. The only answer his that he is a compulsive liar and can't stop himself.

Debunker.

Snap!

Monckton record of lying really is impressive, and yes it speaks to a compulsion.

mandas, you're right about demand-side vs supply side, I noticed that too but decided for the sake of comedy to overlook it...It's probably based more on the less sophisticated ancestor of supply side, Ronald Raygun's "trickle down" economics.

It reminds me of a cartoon I once saw of a mile high stack of people standing one on top of the other and the one on the top looking down saying "now let me explain how the system works..."

Climategate : A crime against humanity.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/climategate.php

Christianity: A crime against humanity.
http://www.captaincynic.com/thread/48859/christian-crimes-against-human…

I have no doubt of christian crimes against humanity mandas. The dark ages was a terrible time. Now, onward toward the future of left wing secularites' crimes against humanity -

1) restriction of free speech unless that speech agrees with said left wing ideals

2) restriction of objects designed for self defense against threats domestic, foreign, in home, out of home, or against tyranny

3) infanticide - the senseless murder of unborn children. 55 million in the USA alone just since 1973. Infanticide - the next generation geneocide

4) The forced coersion of the belief in evolution, global warming, gayism, and self proclaimed human rights. Human rights include the right to free food, free housing, free transportation, free utilies, free stuff from where one may desire. Oh, they already have a place that provides free healthcare, free dental, free meals, free housing, around the clock cabale televsion, free books and magazines and games, free strength training and exercise gyms, free transportation and free utilities all where you just lay back and let "the rich", that those 53 percent of us who oay taxes, pay for it. it's called prison.

Try again.

"I have no doubt of christian crimes against humanity mandas. The dark ages was a terrible time.

I have never heard the 20th century described as the dark ages before. Interesting. Or could it be that EAP didn't read the link?

"the senseless murder of unborn children"

You can't murder something that isn''t alive. And 'murder' is a legal term. And since abortion is legal, it can't be murder to remove unwanted cells can it? It is no different from having your appendix removed. You have heard of the appendix I assume? Vestigial organ? Serves no function in humans? The shrunken version of the caecum that served a digestive function in one of our ancestors millions of years ago? Yeah - you know!

"The forced coersion of the belief in evolution, global warming, gayism, and self proclaimed human rights.

Sorry EAP. No-one is forcing you to believe anything. Feel free to remain as stupid as you like.

@IC

You really are living in a parallel universe.

Restriction against free speach? How come Fox News is allowed to spew forth the rubbish that they do? A Federal judge even ruled that as a news organisation, they weren't even required to tell the truth!

As for your comments on Prison, do you realise that the US has the highest rate of incarceration of any country in the civilised world, by miles? Do you think it might be related to said objects of self defence in your point 2?

The only real threats to freedom are from people without the education and critical thinking faculties to realise what freedom is.

And going back to a previous thread.

Are you going to accept that the Bible contains contradictions? Changing the topic is a standard way for Fundies to wriggle out of tough questions. Does the Bible contain contradictions? Yes or No.

If No, then can you explain why the contradictions we have pointed out on this thread are not contradictions?

"I will not comply" doesn't cut it. It just means you don't have an answer.

debubnker, you crook., you behave as in an criminal investigation, learn to behave better and be more humble, you plain asshole

@Kai,

You are a complete moron. You can't even spell Debunker. There is no criminal investigation here, I would just like to see if IC has any answer, any answer at all to my questions re the Bible. He can chose to answer or not, but changing the topic won't cut it.

As for behaving better, who are you to talk? You still haven't managed to provide us with a link to all this supposed new molecular biology that shows evolution is wrong.

You have managed to bring absolutely nothing to any discussion you have ever had here and I should say that you are an empty vessel, but that wouldn't be true. Your vessel contains mostly shit, you autocoprophagous imbecile.

talk is all kai can do. Not even that well.

They're just a fuckstain on the internet given a clean sheet by coby because they're chickenshit.

Are you going to accept that the Bible contains contradictions? Changing the topic is a standard way for Fundies to wriggle out of tough questions. Does the Bible contain contradictions? Yes or No.

-------------

My answer is NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

What contradictions do you speak of? There have been entire volumes wriiten debunking your supposed contradictions.

If you want contradictions, look at evolution. The mere fact that man and ape exist at the same time is a contradiction to the theories that man evolved FROM apes.

In any even evolution itself is a contadiction to Christianity. You have to accept one or the other, not both.

Dear God,

Why do you allow such violence in our schools?
Signed, Concerned Student

Dear Concerned Student,

I am not allowed in your schools, so I was not there to protect you.
Signed God

"The mere fact that man and ape exist at the same time is a contradiction to the theories that man evolved FROM apes.

Idiot! You might as well say it is a contradiction because wolves and coyotes exist at the same time. And not even your moronic hero Kent Hovind thinks that.

Just as coyotes and wolves are different kinds of canids and have evolved from a common ancestor; humans, gorillas, chimps, etc are just different types of ape which have evolved from a common ancestor. But if you had listened listened during biology class instead of having your mind twisted by abusive and hateful parents, maybe you would not keep expressing your ignorance so often.

"In any even evolution itself is a contadiction to Christianity. You have to accept one or the other, not both."

Not a problem!

"Dear Concerned Student, I am not allowed in your schools, so I was not there to protect you. Signed God"

Pretty impotent god who can be kept out of a school by a government policy. Even criminals with guns can get in any time they want.

Insufficient compos mentis argues that the simultaneous existence of "less evolved" species and "more evolved" species disproves evolution. This shows an extraordinary ignorance of the basic principles of evolution including natural selection, variable competition, and niche-filling/partitioning. If fundamentalists are this dull it's no surprise that they subscribe to mythic origin tales that are scientifically baseless.

And for what it's worth Insufficient compos mentis' misinterpretation of evolution, when followed to its logical conclusion, would dictate that only one species ever exist at any one time. Evolution argues the diametric opposite for the reasons touched upon in the previous paragraph.

I don't know what's more sad - that Insufficient compos mentis is a genuine fundie Creationist who believes his own drivel, or that he is a poe who simply can't get enough of imitating an ignorant fundie.

It's a sad world where so much of either sort of stupidity exists.

@mandas,

"In any even evolution itself is a contadiction [sic] to Christianity. You have to accept one or the other, not both."

Yes evolution contradicts, i. e., disproves Christianity.

Evolution has all the facts, because it is based on reality, Christianity has none, becaused it is based on an ancient book that is full of errors and misconceptions about the real world.

Just look at the beginnings of Christianity as a state religion under emperor Constantine, then you know why men who are lusting for power and control over their fellow human beings have chosen this religion as a great way to subdue the rest of humankind. And done so very successfully.

A person that accepts the concept of trinity - you have to accept it at face value, because it is a logical contradiction in itself - will accept any other nonsense that they are told to believe as well. In other words: Chrisitanity is a perfect instrument when it comes to controlling people. IC is just one more sad example of this.

"Dear God,

Why do you allow such violence in our schools?
Signed, Concerned Student"

Because he doesn't exist.

@IC

"what contradictions do you speak of?"

Well we could start with the one' s already pointed out previously, or have you not taken anything in?

For one, the Bible clearly states animals going into the ark by pairs, and then later it says 7 sets of pairs. Which is it to be? Is that not a contradiction?

Please see relevant passages below (which you obviously missed first time around:

Genesis 6:20
Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

If we go with Genesis 7:2
Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

We could start with that...

@Wow

"Because he doesn’t exist."

Definitely the onla explanation that makes sense.

During an earthquake, in a plane crash, war beleivers and unbelievers are killed alike. If there was a god who protected his followers there would be a statistically significant difference between victims: those who believed in the "right" god, would have better chances of surviving or most likely would be spared altogether. But this does not happen. Ergo: there is no such god.

In addition to that it would be an insult to any human being if their god expected them to believe in it/him/her in the face of all the odds against it/him/her. How can an entity that is supposed to have given us a brain, expect not to use this brain when it comes to matters of religion?

Epicurus is right after all:

"“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

No believer has ever been able to resovle this problem.

Richard Dawkins also rightly noted that a universe created by a god that had even the slightest resemblance to any god imagined by humnan beings would look entirely different. Thus religion and reality are mutually exclusive: No religion can explain reality but reality can disprove all religions.

How desparate most Christians are when it comes to explaining things is the claim that their god "works in mysterious ways". That is the most primitive cop-out imaginable: As long as things seem to fit they "KNOW" exactly what their god his in mind, as soon as contradictions creep up they revert to the silly claim: "god works in mysterious ways". You cannot show in any other way how miserable such a belief is.

People even got killed in a church:

"On Sunday, December 9, 2007, at about 1 p.m. Murray, armed with a semi-automatic rifle and two pistols, entered the foyer of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs and fatally shot two and wounded three others before himself being shot and wounded by Jeanne Assam, a former sworn Minneapolis police officer and a church member acting as security."

A wonder where IC's god was then? Or is it that those people believed in the wrong god? Maybe some statistical research is needed to find out which of the 30.000 or so Chrisitan sects in the USA alone believe in the one and only? Surely, they cannot all be right, when chances are that they are ALL WRONG.

How come churches don't need lightning rods?

Because their god doesn't exist?
Because he doesn't care?
Because he wants to kill them?
Because they worship the wrong one?

If you buy insurance or have lightning conductors on either your home or the church you go to, you are acknowledging that your god is one of those three:

Nonexistent
Murderous
Wrong

jan, mandas, debnuker, wow, you are just not intelligent enough for a wise discussion among educated people with sufficient background in science.

You're an annoying brainless brat, kai, wallowing in shite of your own making, you sick puke of a human being.

wow, may the lord forgive you your sins, you poor non-performer

kai, may you one day find a brain.

Kai must be a poe.

No-one can be that stupid.

No, he's a kid trying to get his ego inflated by telling everyone else they "suck".

IC is just your standard idiot moron.

For those who came in late (with apologies to Lee Falk). The following are the 4 accounts of the most important story – to Christians - in the bible.

Let’s play that kid’s game that sometimes appears in magazines – spot the difference:

Matthew 28
1 Now after the sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Mag'dalene and the other Mary went to see the sepulchre.
2 And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone, and sat upon it.
3 His appearance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow.
4 And for fear of him the guards trembled and became like dead men.
5 But the angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid; for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified.
6 He is not here; for he has risen, as he said. Come, see the place where he lay.
7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples that he has risen from the dead, and behold, he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him. Lo, I have told you."
8 So they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples.

Mark 16
1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salo'me, bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him.
2 And very early on the first day of the week they went to the tomb when the sun had risen.
3 And they were saying to one another, "Who will roll away the stone for us from the door of the tomb?"
4 And looking up, they saw that the stone was rolled back; -- it was very large.
5 And entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, dressed in a white robe; and they were amazed.
6 And he said to them, "Do not be amazed; you seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen, he is not here; see the place where they laid him.
7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him, as he told you."
8 And they went out and fled from the tomb; for trembling and astonishment had come upon them; and they said nothing to any one, for they were afraid.
9 Now when he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons.
10 She went and told those who had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 But when they heard that he was alive and had been seen by her, they would not believe it.
12 After this he appeared in another form to two of them, as they were walking into the country.
13 And they went back and told the rest, but they did not believe them.

Luke 24
1 But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they went to the tomb, taking the spices which they had prepared.
2 And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb,
3 but when they went in they did not find the body.
4 While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men stood by them in dazzling apparel;
5 and as they were frightened and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, "Why do you seek the living among the dead?
6 Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee,
7 that the Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and on the third day rise."
8 And they remembered his words,
9 and returning from the tomb they told all this to the eleven and to all the rest.
10 Now it was Mary Mag'dalene and Jo-an'na and Mary the mother of James and the other women with them who told this to the apostles;
11 but these words seemed to them an idle tale, and they did not believe them.

John 20
1 Now on the first day of the week Mary Mag'dalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.
2 So she ran, and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him."
3 Peter then came out with the other disciple, and they went toward the tomb.
4 They both ran, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first;
5 and stooping to look in, he saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not go in.
6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; he saw the linen cloths lying,
7 and the napkin, which had been on his head, not lying with the linen cloths but rolled up in a place by itself.
8 Then the other disciple, who reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed;
9 for as yet they did not know the scripture, that he must rise from the dead.
10 Then the disciples went back to their homes.

The winner will be the person who can spot the most contradictions. To start you off, I will show you how to do it with an easy one:

Who went to the tomb?
Matthew: 2 women - Mary Magdalene and the other Mary
Mark: 3 women - Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome
Luke: 4 women - Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, Joanna, and the other woman
John: 1 woman - Mary Magdalene

Your turn! Try another easy one first – who did these women meet when they went to the tomb:

Matthew: ?
Mark: ?
Luke: ?
John: ?

Ha! You can't catch me out!

There was no man GOING to St Ives! He was coming back!!!

Oh, hang on, I think I got the wrong thread...

@ Jan,

Yes I am aware that left wing Christian haters break into churches and shoot people. It has become eident that satan;s strength has grown in recent years. I do not know why God allowed this to happen. I can say that honestly. But I will tell you what. if you wait long enough, you will get to ask Him yourself when you stand before Him on judgement day unless you die before that day arrives. At any rate, you will have the opportunity to ask Him in person.

@Mandas

As for your alleged discrepancies, see http://www.apologeticspress.org/AllegedDiscrepancies.aspx becuase that is just too much to type.

Try again.

.... and while we are on discrepancies in religion, that brins up some contradictions in your global warming religion. Tell me mandas, is the earth cooling or warming? The story seems to keep changing from season to season. One time "scientists" will talk about global warming and how hot it is, then they will switch to global cooling and a coming ice age. So, mandas which is it? Pleas tell your idols at the UN to stop chnaging their minds so often. it hard to keep up with their day to day cooling or warming beliefs. Personally I believe the UN "scientists" are mentally defective.

Looks like EAP is has no answers yet again, since he is incapable of rational thought. So then, the answer to the second question – Who did the women meet? - is:

Matthew: An angel of the lord descended from heaven
Mark: A young man sitting inside the tomb
Luke: Two men
John: No-one

Question 3 – What did these women (or woman if you accept John’s version) do next?

" he is incapable of rational thought" explains the person who believes that the universe just happened to pop into existance all by itself nd that he is related to apes. ...

It appears that more than one person went into the tomb. Not so confusing.

An angel did appear before the women. They saw Jesus in the tomb, peter did not. They went at seperate times. If I went into the kitchen at 9:00 and my brother saw me and my grandmother went in while I stepped out, she would not have seen me there. Therefore i was there but people saw me in there at seperate times. No so hard to comprehend. So far, no contradictions, only people going to the same site at different times and all seeing something different becuase they were there at different times. Perhaps hours apart. The parts that says "Peter reached the tomb first" indicates he was first witness. While he left to go tell other what he had seen, the women were making their way there and saw what they saw. So far no contradictions ...

oh and FYI, these are NOT the most important scriptures in Christianity. The foundation of Christianity is based upon what happened in the first few chapters of Genesis. It was there that sin came into the world and it was there that sacrifice and death were made and it was ultimately Jesus who paid that death payment for us becuase of what happened in Genesis. You got your foundations wrong again. If a church is not going to preach Genesis, then they mights as well not preach the rest of it either. What's the point? Sort of like modern secular depressivessaying the constitution is outdated. If so, then why even have one?

@Mandas,

IC says: "you will get to ask Him yourself when you stand before Him on judgement day"

Pity this cannot happen, because IC's god does not exist, otherwise he/she/it would have a lot to answer for:

" I do not know why God allowed this to happen."

Not only did he/she/it condone but actually order the killing of millions of people: men, women and children. If he/she/it was real, he/she/it would have to be tried and convicted as a mass murderer on top of numerous other crimes..

@mandas,

IC says " If a church is not going to preach Genesis, then they mights as well not preach the rest of it either."

Good idea. I have always asked myself why people should be encouraged to teach BS?

"Tell me mandas, is the earth cooling or warming?"

Quite laughable, that. IC does not have the slightest bit of knowledge about the climate issue. So he gets it all wrong.

Fact is, that in the late 1960s and early 1970 A FEW scientists wondered IF the increasing air pollution MIGHT lead to a cooling. That's all. NO respectable scientist ever argued that we were heading into an ice age in the forseeable future. According to the Milancovic Cycles the next ice age is not due for many thousands of years.

Listen EAP, we need to talk. Grab yourself a beer or wine (or whatever takes your fancy) and have a read and think for a little while.

You need to lift your game EAP. If you are going to troll this or any other site using fundie poe, you need to at least have a very basic understanding of what you are writing about. Otherwise, your efforts will be for nothing.

Your last post was, well,,,,, silly. Genesis is not nor has it ever been the underpinnings of christianity - the resurrection of jesus is. Christianity can exist without the creation myth. It can exist without the flood myth or any of the other myths from the old testament. But it cannot exist as a religion without the story of christ's resurrection. So if you are going to use poe to try and troll us, at least know the basics. You can look up the rest if you want, but don't make yourself foolish by getting the obvious things wrong.

So there's a good chap. Take a break for a little while and do some reading. You could read the bible for the first time, and try to understand it a little so you can at least put a cogent argument together when we point out its obvious failings. And also try and use your own words. Plagiarising nonsense from fundie websites might work occasionally, but as some of use are competent researchers, you will eventually get caught out.

So there you have it. Use this advice as you see fit - but ignore it at your peril. If you want to be a good fundie poe troll, you need to work a little harder at it.

Without the old testament, there's nothing for jesus to do.

Die for our sins?

Those were the Original Sin of the Old Testament.

So JC had nothing to do if you drop the OT.

God doesn't even appear. Satan does.

wow, do you believe in satan?

@Wow,

yes, the gist of all this is that the bible does not add up at all. It is a contradiction in itself, which, taken its origin into account (dozens of authors over a priod of many hundreds of years) does not come as a surpise.

But the most striking inconsistency is the very basis of Christianity itself: Why on Earth was Jesus's death a necessary condition so that the Christian god could forgive humanity for their "sins"? Not even considering the absurdity that it is claimed that those sins go back to people that never even existed: Adam and Eve in the so-called paradise.

The most plausible explanantion is that Jesus was one of many wandering priests and potential rabble-rousers who happened to be crucified and after his death his followers started to invent a phantastic story about his "real nature".

As for the miracles some believe he has performed, modern biblical researches consnet that ALL of the miracles are later additions to the legends, years after Jesus's death, invented for the sole purpose of making him look even more godlike.

The blble is a conglomerat of many ancient texts, haphazardly put together in the forth century CE, as is proven by the fact that there still exist a number of texts that did not make it into the bible anthology. Christians do not even agree what texts should belong to the bible and what not, resulting in the absurd result that "God's own word" differs according to believers' denomination, the protestant bible being in parts different from the catholic bible.

And post-hoc adjustment so that certain Old Testament "prophesies" could then have been "proven to pass".

Which is why JC gets born at two different times in two different locations. The authors of each chapter had different ideas about which prophesy should have been fulfilled.

One they couldn't do is that Joseph was of David's line and the saviour was to be of David's line.

But JC isn't Joseph's child: he was a virgin birth (like Mithras, a much older fairy tale. surely they didn't nick the idea from another religion, did they?!?!).

Therefore that prophesy is falsified within itself.

kai, you suck on satan's love-spuds.

like Mithras, a much older fairy tale. surely they didn’t nick the idea from another religion, did they?!?!

They also nicked the idea of ritual sacrifice from other (pagan) religions, which is how Jesus' crucifixion is rationalised - although rationality is hardly the appropriate term for the convoluted theology involved.

wow, for all your heresies you will suffer tremendous pain in the purgatory and then even more so in the hell where satan will bite you everywhere

No, kai, I'm not the one fellating satan.

@Wow,

as usual, kai does not know what he is talking about. He is quite unware that according to cahtolic belief one cannot go to Purgatory AND hell (of course with "the", but his poor command of the English language always makes him put his foot in :-) ).

Either you are in a state of grace and have only committed minor sins, then you have to spend a limited time in purgatory (hence the term, which is Latin for a cleaning place) or you are gulity of deadly sins, which means you will have to spend eternity in hell.

Kai is such a pain in the neck, always blathering utter nonsense. He must have reached the final step of laymanship:. He started off by knowing very little about a lot of things and as time went by "learned" less and less about more and more and now he "knows" nothing about everything.

Purgatory was invented because otherwise there was no reason to spend huge amounts of money giving to the church.

The church asked for donations for mourners to pray for your soul and the rich would gift huge sums to have this done for eternity to pray them into heaven.

Except without purgatory, you go to heaven (no need to pray them in to heaven) or hell (in which case you ain't getting out).

So purgatory was put in place so that there was a point to prayer, therefore a "need" (completely manufactured) to pay the church to sing your soul to heaven.

Money making scam.

@ Jan

I do have alot to answer for. I am human being, made in the image of God and accountable for my actions to my Creator. So are you. You, however, have fell into Satan's oldest trap. You will see the light one day, but it will be too late.

@Wow

In the Old Testament God appeaed before Satan. Remember that God created the universe and all life there in. He made man in His own image. It was after this that Satan tempted man, or should I say woman. Satan was cast down from heaven becuase of his rebellion. He wanted to be a God himself. At one time he was the most powerful and most beautiful of all God's creation. He got cocky with it and decided he needed more glory and fame and power, so he rebelled and got kicked out along with numerous others. These evil angels still walk the earth to this day. They cause disease, violence, war, etc. Each one has a name and a specific purpose. Read the Testament of Solomon or the Lesser Key of Solomon sometime. If that interests you, you might also read The Sword of Moses.

You say that purgatory (which appeas nowhere in scripture) is a made so that the church can make money eh? A money making scam eh? What do you think global warming and the pagan earth worship religion is all about? MONEY and the redistribution of said money.

Evolution is a MONKEY making scam. It makes a monkey out of evyone who believes it.

I will not understand.

I wil not comply.

The new world order must be arrested.

I will not comply.

To the Rothchilds, Rockefellers, Trilateral Commission, Bilderbergers, and Masons. To the Skulls/Bones, and to the illunimati ... I will not comply. Judgement day will come and your organizations will fall. You quest for dominance, control of the populace, and power will crumble. Your aching baodies will burn in a lake of fire alongside ithe creatures of the great deep that you make alliances with.

... I will not comply.

Eternal refusion to comply.

"According to the widely accepted scientific account, the universe erupted 15 billion years ago in an explosion called the 'Big Bang' and has been expanding and cooling ever since. Later there gradually emerged the conditions necessary for the formation of atoms, still later the condensation of galaxies and stars, and about 10 billion years later the formation of planets. In our own solar system and on earth (formed about 4.5 billion years ago), the conditions have been favorable to the emergence of life. While there is little consensus among scientists about how the origin of this first microscopic life is to be explained, there is general agreement among them that the first organism dwelt on this planet about 3.5–4 billion years ago. Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution."

I wonder which 'monkey' could believe this. Let me check............

Oh, here it is. The 'Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith', at the 'International Theological Commission', headed by 'Pope Benedict XVI'. Nice one head of the christian church guy!

But then, it had already been accepted by Pope John Paul II that evolution was an essentially proven fact, and that:
"...to tell the truth, rather than the theory of evolution, we should speak of ... the different explanations advanced for the mechanism of evolution”
Which of course, is exactly what every biologist in the world would say.

It would seem that even the original christian church thinks EAP is a dick. And I can't wait for EAP to tell us what he thinks of the Catholic Church - the one founded by SimonPeter, who is described in the bible (Matthew 16) thus:

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

I guess Jesus must be wrong as well.

Oh - and the answer to question 3, what did the woman (women) do after they found the empty tomb?

Matthew: So they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples

Mark: And they went out and fled from the tomb; for trembling and astonishment had come upon them; and they said nothing to any one, for they were afraid.

Luke: And returning from the tomb they told all this to the eleven and to all the rest.

John: So she ran, and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.

So she (they) ran away and either told no-one (according to Mark), all the disciples (according to Matthew and Luke), or told just Simon and one other disciple (according to John). Hmmmm, I wonder which one(s) is correct and which ones are wrong?

@Wow,

IC says "human being, made in the image of God"

So this is what IC's god may look like:

http://randomland2.tripod.com/id2.html

"IC says “human being, made in the image of God” "

That's me!

funny how he keeps whining about how nasty I am yet thinks I look like a god!

"The new world order must be arrested."

Why?

The second coming of JC would usher in a new world order. You'd resist that???

"In the Old Testament God appeaed before Satan"

Yeah, I guess you didn't do the alphabet when you were homeshcooled.

Old != New

They use different letters.

Different letters are used to denote different words.

"Remember that God created the universe and all life there in."

Your god didn't.

And I wasn't actually there, but my dad would have mentioned if his wife had been banged by god...

Ever considered you were wrong, IC?

Because fundamentalism like that leads to suicide bombers, fatwahs and oppressive governments.

wow, can it really be true that are not afraid of sufffering terrible pain when satan in THE hell will cut off your tongue and then three fingers, two from your right hand and one from your left hand, and then eat your right eye as punishment of your terrible sins you have committed on earth

Is it incredible to you that I'm not afraid of being captured by Sauron and tortured, turned into an Orc and made to slave in the ash pits of Mordor?

And what terrible sins have I committed?

@ IC

"I will not understand.

I wil not comply.

The new world order must be arrested.

I will not comply

I will not even attempt to use my brains"

Errr sorry, I added the last bit.

What a pathetic attempt to explain the differing resurection stories. They arrived at different times... For Christ's sake! Notice the Bible doesn't mention what time they each arrived. If you believe that, you'll believe anything... Oh, I forgot, you already do...

However, what about the Ark contradiction? Was it 1 pair of animals or 7 pairs of animals? How do you explain that?

And Kai, did you ever look up what auto-coprophagous means? Enlighten us....

debunker, wow, mandas, jan: your unsurmountable problem is, that regarding knowledge, intelligence, sexual attractiveness

@ wow who said

"Because fundamentalism like that leads to suicide bombers, fatwahs and oppressive governments."

Yes I am aware of that. Just ask Bill Ayers, Van Jones, and a whole host of mentally defective youth who go around lighting fires to Hummer dealerships in the name of saving the environment. Well Ayers never did that, but he did plot to blow up the pentagon and Jones wanted to eradicate 25 percent of the population in order to save the environment.

Yes, wow, I am quite aware of how fundaMENTALism works, but you fail to see it works just as bad for your side as it does mine. You do not necessarily need to believe in God to be a terrorist. Terrorism in the name of global warming is a fundamentalist religion of its own. Pagan I might add. A false idol worthy of destruction as well.

Looks like EAP is incapable of addressing the substantial issues I raised about prophesies, the christian church and evolution, and inconsistencies in the biblical account of the resurrection.

What's up EAP? Can't you find a cut and paste from a fundie website yet?

@Wow,

IC says, "You do not necessarily need to believe in God to be a terrorist."

That's true, but it helps tremendously!

I can´t understand why you guys always feed kai. Just ignore him and he´ll leave...

wow, the most terrible sins you have committed are your continuing violations of the greatness of god the almighty. in addition you lack humility and defend and praise sexual aberrations like homosexuality and other perversities which are not politically correct.

@ Jan,

Actually some of the worst tyrants in history have been communists and socialists who despise the very idea of a God. Yes I know there were some brutal people on the other side as well, but generally speaking, tyrants who think that they are God are usually worse than the ones who worship a God.

@ Mandas,

I suppose I could cut and past from Code Pink. That's a pretty fundaMENTAList terror group.

Try again.

Looks like EAP is incapable of addressing the substantial issues I raised about prophesies, the christian church and evolution, and inconsistencies in the biblical account of the resurrection.

What’s up EAP? Can’t you find a cut and paste from a fundie website yet?

Mandas,

I know of no fudie websites from which to copy. Perhaps you could steer me in the direction of your alleged fundie sites? Is code Pink one of them? Democratic Underground? Media Matters? Stink Progress?

You will have to be more specific as to what you are referring to as a so called fundie websites. I did post a link for, though I doubt if you even looked at it, in which case what would be the point of any future posts?

Try again.

@Mandas,

IC says, "I know of no fudie websites from which to copy."

What a pervert liar! Where does he get his utter BS from, if not from BS fundie websites? They abound on the internet. Some of them (the worst?) are listed here:

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/other-links-cre.html

All of them have in common that they are run by the most dishonest people on Earth. They lie, deceive, misquote and are a disgrace to every decent person who sees the internet as a chance to spread knowledge and insight.

Here are some very good comments on why there are so many creationist BS websites around:

http://old.richarddawkins.net/discussions/474263-creationists-websites-…

@mandas & Jan,

I was talking to an American friend of mine recently, and he was saying that the USA has some of the most ignorant and uneducated people on the plant. They are also the most arrogant in their ignorance. They are so ignorant, they do not even realise that they are ignorant. They wear their ignorance like a badge of honour. Look at Bill O'Reilly, "tide comes in, tide goes out; you can't explain that". He was so arrogantly ignorant that he assumed there was no possible explanation! It was seriously funny to observe his reaction (in the video Jan posted above,) when the effect of the Moon was put to him as a solution!

I suspect Kai and IC are probably US based. No other country does ignorance like the US does. Kai still has not provided any support for his ridiculous assertion that modern molecular biology contradicts evolution, mainly because no such support exists. He is just making shit up.

IC keeps changing the topic because he is unable to explain the inconsistencies and contradictions in the Bible. Did the animals go into the ark by pairs or seven sets of pairs IC? You still haven't answered that have you? Makes a big difference as to how big the Ark needs to be..... Not that his answers make any sense. I mean, to save the prophecies Jesus made of his own return (which have manifestly failed), he suggests that maybe some of those disciples may still be alive! I mean, this is ignorance and idiocy on a massive scale we are dealing with here! I suspect he is not a POE,, but a genuine Fundie. There is no other explanation for his lack of even a basic minimum education.

There really is really no point in responding to these two deadheads any more, they are beyond the reach of rationality and reason. It's like trying to argue with a very young and somewhat slow child.

Sorry, typo. I meant to say "most ignorant and uneducated people on the planet".

@Debunker,

"I suspect Kai and IC are probably US based."

IC#s ost likely is, but I know for sure that Kai is European, but English is not his native language, which may partly account for his inability to express himself clearly. The rest is easily explained by his abominable ignorance; I am quite with you in this respect.

And yes, I also suspect that IC is a genuine fundie. For a POE he is far too stupid. There is nothing original about him, he just keeps parroting the usual creationist BS.

Yes I am US based, south of the Mason Dixon line I might add.

You keep on parroting usual fundie evolution global warming BS.

Oh and seven sets of pairs is STILL in pairs. (eyes roll) Still no inconsistency. Go back and look at my previously posted link. I see no one debunking these explanations to alleged Bible contradictions.

I know of no fundie websites from which to copy from. You know before Al Gore invented the internet, we had books like the Bible among others to quote from. Should I go old school on you? If you wish me to quote from so called fundie websites you will need to be specific in what you are calling a fundie website becuase I know of very few and I already named the ones I know of - Code Pink, Stink Progress, Democratic Underground, "science" blogs, Media Matters, etc. All fundie websites. Do I quote from these liars and violent tyrants?

@IC

"Oh and seven sets of pairs is STILL in pairs"

Your ignorance astounds me. Let us see, what is poor old Noah supposed to take into the Ark? One pair of Elephants (2 huge animals), or 7 pairs of Elephants (14 huge animals). How is he to know? It says both in the Bible.

That is a massive contradiction, and for you to concentrate just on the pairs shows you lack even basic math. If we are talking about 7 pairs of animals each then the Ark would have to be much bigger, and it is already at the structural limit of what you can build with wood.

If we just consider animals and birds, (the Ark would also have had to carry the birds too since there was nowhere for them to land), this the number we get:

--Vertebrates: 3% of all known species
`--+--Reptiles: 7,984 species
|--Amphibians: 5,400 species
|--Birds: 9,000-10,000 species
|--Mammals: 4,475-5,000 species

http://animals.about.com/od/zoologybasics/a/howmanyspecies.htm

How you are going to get all these into your 350 Biblical "Kinds" so that they will all fit on the Ark, God alone knows. Then just consider how much extra space for your 7 sets of pairs would be.

But if you could manage to compress all these species into 350 Kinds, then you have to consider the furious rate of evolution that would be needed to generate these extra thousands of species in just a few thousand years after the flood. That had to have happened, otherwise where did all these animals come from? The Bible mentions nothing about a second lot of creation when actually most of the animals were created. Pretty major thing to leave out don't you think?

Can you see how ridiculous this whole Ark notion is yet?

IC is too stupid to see the problems.

You have to be able to reason to see them.

Ergo if he just sticks his fingers in his anus and goes "lalalalalalalalalala!" it doesn't exist.

'course coby is no mental giant, just mental.

"I can´t understand why you guys always feed kai. Just ignore him and he´ll leave…"

But you can explain why coby doesn't ban the shitstorm idiots?

Really?

Or is it just much nicer to blame people who can't issue edicts about how dumb you are?

Really.

There are only three people at fault here:

kai
IC
Coby.

Coby is just simply the pimp.

“You do not necessarily need to believe in God to be a terrorist.”

So many of them are, though

Can you think of a single one that doesn't believe in God and terrorised to spread the word of its nonexistence?

"debunker, wow, mandas, jan: your unsurmountable problem is, that regarding knowledge, intelligence, sexual attractiveness"

... we are as gods?

wow, regarding judgement of the evolution theory you and the other nihilists mandas, debunker, bernard etc have convincingly demonstrated here your complete incompetence. your pseudo-knowledge from school is terribly outdated by results from modern molecular genetics which is far above your level of comprehension. you simply lack all the basics to be mentally in the position to even follow simple new insights. it's the same limitation of yours as talking with you idiots about the human brain. you are just poor ignorants in any scientific discipline and nobody of you is a real scientist, but warfare specialists and of other disgusting professions.

"Yes I am US based, south of the Mason Dixon line I might add.

No surprises that EAP would claim to be from the south. I lived there as well for a short period and I know what they are like. Ignorant bible-bashing rednecks every one of them.

EAP is trying to claim that you can believe in christianity or you can believe in evolution, but not both. Unfortunately, the 'kind' nonsense that he has cut and pasted from Kent Hovind (yes, I know where you get it from EAP) is just evolution using a different word, and the real christian church - the one formed by Simon Peter under the direction of Jesus - accepts evolution as a fact.

I guess that's why fundies don't follow the teachings of jesus - they think they know better than him.

Mandas, your ill fained assumption that the REAL church would acept evolution is nothing less than blasphemy. Jesus was present at CREATION before this universe existed. I recall several scripture where Jesus mentioned Adam and SIN, but not one verse about apes and sin. Hmmm. Interesting that GOD(Jesus) who created the universe would accept the lie of satan which is evolution.

Oh, and your comment about rednecks down here is flattering as we take great pride in making sure NOT to be left wing wackos. Up therer where you come from the people are nothing but freedom banning, homo thumping, global warming fruitcake loving, commie tyrants hellbent on making life as miserable as possible for the "community" around them.

Down here sir, we are FREE! ... and we very much intend on keeping it that way.

Want our guns, our gold, and our Bibles? Ok, come and get them. We bow to no man nor his government. We are free sovereign individuals and will be until the bitter end.

@ Wow,

Van Jones comes to mind. Bill Ayers comes to mind. Mayor Bloomfloomberger of New York comes to mind. Bill Gates comes to mind. George Soros comes to mind. Chris Matthews comes to mind. Shall I keep going and keep naming left wing terrorists who hate the name of God along with those who have an identity crisis and believe they are God? Can you say Piers Morgan? Reverend Jeremiah Wrong?

@ Debunker,

So you think Noah had problems with baby elephants eh? Just wait until I tell you how he fit two T Rexes on board along with two brontosauruses and many others KINDS, not species, of animals.

I could really care less wether you believe the true story of Noah and the global flood or not. As a matter of fact I am done with you on this matter, but not before giving you a suggestion that is 100 percent guarunteed to work. When you die, if evil ever dies that is, and you are bing judged on judgement day, ask for one plea bargain - that you get to ask Noah how he fit the animals on board. Oh yes Noah will be there if if you play your cards right, you can ask him yourself how he did it. I just hope I am standing nearby to see the expression on your face as God and Noah teahes you about reality, miracles, and how the world works.

Oh, and for the record, a horse and a donkey is exactly the same KIND of animal. Oh and one more thing. All dogs are derived from a single canine species. Wolves, coyotes, foxes, and pit bulls, germna shepherds, etc. are all related to the single source animals that was created. Noah would not have had all of these animals on board since they were not yet invented yet.

Better luck next time. Try again.

"Up therer where you come

And where would that be my trolling idiot? In case you haven't worked it out yet (duhh - obviously) I am much more of a southerner than you will ever be. Up there? What an idiot!

"All dogs are derived from a single canine species.

Thanks for finally saying something correct, and something we already knew. Of course all dogs are derived from a single canine species. We call this....... wait for it.............

EVOLUTION!!!!!

@mandas,

Looks as if IC has fallen into the very same pit he meant to dig for others.

According to what most of the bible thumbers believe Noah's flood "happened" as little as 4500 years ago.

Considering that IC also believes that the animals on the imagined ark, which he calls "kinds", were the forerunners of all living AND extinct species today, he tacitly admits not only that evolution does happen but also asserts that it happens at a pace many times faster than what biologists deem possible.

Thus by "solving" one problem, he inadvertently but inevitably creates a new, even bigger problem and stubbornly ignores all the other problems that believers in Noah's flood are unable to explain away.

kai, you're a sad waste of your daddy's sperm.

Please, when you grow up and become an adult, DO NOT go pissing in the gene pool.