Just thinking about a previous look at Roy Spencer:
We believe Earth and its ecosystems—created by God’s intelligent design and infinite power and sustained by His faithful providence —are robust, resilient, self-regulating, and self-correcting, admirably suited for human flourishing, and displaying His glory. Earth’s climate system is no exception.
in the context of this recent post of his that finishes with this similarly fact-free gem:
It’s time for the 99% to start supporting the 1% a little better, because in the end it is the 1% who enables the 99% to maximize their standard of living.
I don't know that there is any better response than we have in the brilliant satire found at "The Gospel of Supply Side Jesus", well worth the few minutes required to read all 11 panels!
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" he tacitly admits not only that evolution does happen but also asserts that it happens at a pace many times faster than what biologists deem possible.
Exactly right Jan. EAP is so stupid he doesn't even realise that he accepts the fact of evolution. I would love him to tell us what caused the explosion in speciation over the last 4 millenia. So what is it EAP? Natural selection?
As I have been saying, EAP just cuts and pastes his opinions from other fundie deniers, because, like all fundies, he is incapable of thinking for himself, and must rely on the directions of their priests and evangelical leaders. They would do well in a theocracyt, which is what they want to turn their country into anyway, since they don't believe in the ideals of democracy and freedom.
Most of EAP's opinions on this issue come from Kent Hovind, a convicted criminal who put out a bunch of videos to fleece the gullible of their pittance of an income. Unfortunately for all the gullible followers of Hovind, not even he can maintain a credible position, because he was constantly being debunked and forced to adopt a new position once his previous one becomes untenable. That's exactly where this nonsense about 'changing kinds' comes from. There is a good youtube video that summarises this all right here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-ilMYc5xdQ
Pity EAP didn't watch it first before he tried to troll us with his idiocy.
@mandas,
speaking of youtube you may have come across this hilarious series of videos that explain "why we laugh at creationists".
It takes the mickey out of all that creationist BS that they spread all over the internet and elsewhere:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS5vid4GkEY
Very good entertainment value but it also gives you a lot of insight into their insane way of "reasoning". Highly recommended.
Another interesting point about the first video in the series is that it features VenomFangX, who must be one of the most dishonest creationists out there (well, second to Ken Hovind of course):
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/VenomFangX
Good thing about the internet is that anyone who wants to know can do some research and throw some more light on any issue. Not very diffcult to separate the chaff from the wheat.
Even the bible can be useful at times: Mark 4:22-23 :-)
" Oh yes Noah will be there if if you play your cards right, you can ask him yourself how he did it. I just hope I am standing nearby to see the expression on your face as God and Noah teahes you about reality, miracles, and how the world works."
@IC has truly risen to new heights of idiocy! It is such fun backing him into a corner and then watching to see what he comes up with. This tops the lot.
Ok, let me see now.... Since he has no idea how to resolve these logical, physical and practical contradictions (thanks IC for reminding me of the dinosaurs, all 3000 species of them. It just gets worse :-D), he is now proposing that I talk to Noah and fantasizes how my jaw will drop when Noah explains how he did it! Then Noah and God explain the reality of miracles and how the world works!
What a friggin idiot! The reality is, there are no miracles. The world works according to the blind laws of physics. Always has, always will.
Errr.. That's it! There is no more. If IC had bothered to listen when he (allegedly) darkened the doors of higher learning institutions, he would know this.
I am done with this too, IC. You are the most ignorant, bigoted, misbegotten and under-educated individual I have ever had the misfortune to communicate with. Add to this your complete lack of critical thinking and reasoning abilities; and well frankly, it just leaves me speechless....
wow, it's just incredibe how incredibly primitive you express yourself. nobody likes you since you are such a big asshole without knowledge, intelligence and morale. you are so far away from science that you should just shut your mouth. your scientific understanding of biology is too low to be able to understand well-based criticism on evolution therapy.
kai, you're a pointless idiot whining on the internet about how great you are and how poopy everyone you don't like is.
You're an annoying fucking retard.
wow, you are a shame for mankind
We are still waiting for Kai to demonstrate his superior scientific knowledge by explaining to us the latest molecular research contradicting evolution that he is always harping on about. (accompanied by suitable references).
The fact that he can't is because such evidence does not exist. He is just making shit up, as usual.
debunker and further ignorants, i explain this only to people who have a minimum basic formation in molecular genetics, general biology and medicine, but not with plain laymen like you poor idiots here.
"evolution therapy?"
Is that an indication of your superior scientific knowledge Kai?
More on alleged Biblical errors ...
http://www.apologeticspress.org/apPubPage.aspx?pub=1&issue=554&article=…
@ debunker,
"The world works with the laws of physics". Yeah? Do you not suppose the God who created the universe knows about the same physics He created? I assume that if one has the ability to create physics as we know it, He must also be able to bend or break those same rule eh?
debunker, haha haha hhaha hihi hoo hahahahaha
@>Debunker,
to sum up IC's link:
Person 1: "The bible is inerrant!"
Person 2: "How do you know?"
Person 1: "It's obvious, the bible says so."
BTW: Happy New Year!
"Do you not suppose the God who created the universe knows about the same physics "
If that thing exists it isn't the one you keep harping on about.
" He must also be able to bend or break those same rule eh?"
Has a miracle ever been reliably observed? I am not talking about a bunch of credulous nomads sitting in their tents in 500 BC. The answer is no. Certainly nothing that could not be attributed to natural causes. Ergo, they do not happen. No matter how hard you pray, if you jump off the Empire State building, you will splatter on the pavement at 120 miles per hour. Every time.
Hmm IC,
I looked at your link and pretty unimpressive it was too. It consisted of scores of quotations from the Bible claiming it is true because scripture is infallible. This boils down to "why is the Bible infallible? Because the Bible says so!"
You aren't going to convince anyone with that one. It's a circular argument. The Muslims make the same argument as well. Is the Koran infallible too?
I also looked at the 7 vs 2 pairs of animals in the ark explanation on the same link. The supposed answer was that God decided to err.... "supplement" the instructions he gave to Noah. Why did he need to give additional instructions? Did it slip his mind in the first place?"
I can just imagine God slapping his head and saying, "Ah bugger! I forgot! I want him to sacrifice some clean animals to me after this flood crap is all over, so he needs to take on more of 'em". This creates a picture of either a bumbling, absent minded God, or one who can't see into the future to realise he needs these extra animals, or both!
Either way, he is not very infallible. This doesn't even begin to be an explanation.
Heck, making the Statue of Liberty disappear is pretty miraculous.
Does that make David Copperfield a God?
So does 'The Water Babies'.
OK. I'm listening. Go ahead.
@debunker
It matters not wether you believe it or not. Some people are just prone to believing only satan's lies. So you believe the UN on global warming and you beleive the hairy old turtle herder darwin on evilution. Two of the worst lies ever told and you believe them over centuries of miracles witnessed by thousands? Sounds about right.
@Debunker,
IC keeps repeating the same old BS.
I think he is immune to any form of information. All one can do now is to ridicule him.
I do not believe in Global Warming and evolution either: I know them to be facts. And that is the most important difference between people like IC and us. We only accept things AFTER we have tested them and found them to hold water, while IC was indoctrinated with the most hilarious fairy tales in early childhood and has never learned to make a difference between reality and Never Never Land. He never grew up, he will always remain someone caught up in his wishful naive thinking (i. e., if you can call what he does "thinking").
He does not even realize that the shit he believes in was only made up to keep people like him stupid and useful idiots, who follow leaders (remember, the vast majority of German Nazis and Russian Bolsheviks were Christians, who also had been brought up to believe things rather then think for themselves) andhand over a substantial part of their money to their church.
And - as George Carlin noted (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o) - their god cannot handle money, he/she/it keeps asking for more.
Talking about differences, here is a very entertaining piece by Bill Maher, where he explains the difference between sane people on the one hand and religious people on the other (watch from 8'08", although the whole thing is worth watching):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o
And here's a link to Pen and Teller, wo have something important to say about the veracity of the bible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaLaTMaKjdY
If IC sees that he will go up the wall. :-)
And in the real world of science, there is an interesting article in the media this morning:
http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/planets-oldest-fossils-found-…
The paper is here:
https://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2012AM/finalprogram/abstract_205981.htm
You keep raising molecular genetics, but you don't actually explain how it contradicts evolution.
As someone who as studied and worked professionally in both disciples, I would be very interested to hear something substantive from you. I'm by no means a lay person in these matters, so you have no excuse to avoid trying to educate me - unless of course you are speaking shit, as Debunker noted on 1 January 2013...
In case you missed it the first time 'round, this is what I said the last time you raised the subject:
The fact that you are assiduously avoiding any detail only indicates to people that you know nothing at all.
@Bernard,
good idea to make kai look like the fool he is. Of course, he will not be able to present anything substantial to support his claim.
He will either not answer at all and keep trying to insult everybody or he will copy some nonsense from creationist websites. Either way, everybody will be able to see what a fool he is.
What he and most of the critics of evolution do not realize is that evolution is a non-disputable fact, because the evidence is so obvious. The only field still open for discussion is the question how exactly evolution works. But even here Darwin's ideas have been corroborate time and again over he past 150 since his theory has become publicly known.
I have a feeling that kai may have misunderstood (i. e., if understanding is within his intellectual capacity) some of the hypotheses bought forward by epigenetics. But let's wait and see what - if at all - he comes up with. :-)
@IC
"“The world works with the laws of physics”. Yeah? Do you not suppose the God who created the universe knows about the same physics He created? I assume that if one has the ability to create physics as we know it, He must also be able to bend or break those same rule eh?"
I submit the following as evidence that the Biblical God does not even know the basic laws of Physics to start with, let alone knowing them well enough to break them!
"And he [Hiram] made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one rim to the other it was round all about, and...a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about....And it was an hand breadth thick...." — First Kings, chapter 7, verses 23 and 26
Here the infallible and inerrant Bible is clearly making the claim that PI has a value of 3. A God working with this value of PI would not even manage to create a functioning planetary system, let alone populate the 3rd planet with semi-cretinous morons to sing his praises!
debunker, the "semi-cretinous morons" are yours. why by satan do you consider yourself superior to anybody else with such a poor track record in any dimension and as a mean low-performer representative of eco-green mainstream lower society classes? you have no relevant academic degree and were never high class nowhere. so, just shut up your bollocks-sptting mouth. YOU ARE IRRELEVANT
@Kai
First of all, you don't know anything about me or my schooling, so have no basis for making any of those comments, and second of all:
Have you figured out what auto-coprophagous means yet?
Just asking.....
debunker, as i am superior to you in any imaginable aspect, i need not lookup any word you are able to write on the internet, because my general knowledge of everything is terribly superior to your lower-class knowledge
@Debunker,
oh yes, kai has become an expert. When he used to be a layman he knew nothing about everything, now as an expert he knows everything about nothing. :-)
P.S.: Will you really go on feeding the troll? To my mind he is no longer amusing but increasingly annoying because of his insurmountable stupidity.
I no longer engage directly with him. To me it suffices, when I point out the crazyness of his "arguments" from time to time.
I know he is a lamentable psychopath but since I am not a headshrinker I do not feel obliged to save him from his condition.
@Jan,
You are right, I won't respond directly in future. Kai is a complete waste of space and a good argument for retrospective abortion.
@Debunker,
I would not go as far as doing away with him: Nobody is really useless, they can still serve as a bad example and kai is definitely one of the worst. :-).
jan, i would even say that debunker is not completely useless, and also you, despite the fact that you don't know anything about molecular genetics and medicine
@ Deunker,
Abortion is illegal. Oh and Pi is 3. most all numbers can be added to when a decimal is placed behind said number. Duh.
@ Jan. Nazis were not Christians. Perhaps Apostate christains maybe if you wish to refer them to religion at all. REAL Christians KNOW that Israel is God's chosen people, therefore if Nazis were Christians they would have been DEFENDING God's people, not killing them.
While were were on the subject on nazis and sheeple, most commies, nazis and other DICKtators of the world chhose to enslave their own people. Disagree with the government and you get punished. Weapons owned by mere peasants is a big no-no becuase wepaoned peasants might come to their senses and rebel agiast the all knowing all seeing all powerful government. Sound familiar? The USA is headed for tyranny and the left is to blame. Some people on the left are even calling for the assasination of NRA leaders and GOP leaders. They demand that we give up our guns in order for them to kill us more easily? Sounds very Hitlerish to me. Oh and if these left wing satanic tyrant from hell do indeed end up communizing America I wish no less than the fires of hell for them. They deserve the most severe punishment that can be comprehnded. The sick dog humping traitors. Maybe someone will feed them their own entrails in hell. I
Come on EAP. We have had this discussion before.
If you are going to troll this site with poe, it has to be real poe, not that last crap. Lift your game!
jan, again: "I know he is a lamentable psychopath but since I am not a headshrinker I do not feel obliged to save him from his condition"
please, could you really improve your primitive german school english and concentrate more on what you were trying to say. no one can understand your rubbish.
"The USA is headed for tyranny and the left is to blame."
I live in a country where purchasing and owning of guns is very strict and tyranny is nowhere near. Must be some US-thing - or ICs paranoia.
@JV,
as soon as IC puts his hands on the keyboard, rubbish is the inevitble outcome.
@IC "Oh and Pi is 3. most all numbers can be added to when a decimal is placed behind said number. Duh."
It is difficult to quantify the sheer idiocy of this comment. Every time IC comes back with an answer I think, 'That's the dumbest thing I have ever heard, and I always think, that's it, he can't possibly get any dumber, but then he does!
IC, PI is not 3. It is as below, to an infinite number of decimal places.
π = 3.1415926535897932384626433832795 (and more...)
You cannot write down a simple fraction that equals Pi.
It is known as an irrational number in mathematics, and it never repeats, and there is always another term.
I can understand it if you do not know this, but God really should. As I said, you cannot build a functioning planetary system, or much else without knowing this number.
You obviously were asleep during all your maths classes, even in High school, let alone those institutes of higher learning that you claim to have visited. The amazing thing is that you appear to be proud of your lack of learning, it is almost as if you wear it like a badge of honour!
Unbelievable! (shakes head vigorously)...
@debunker,
Your Pie still starts witha 3 does it not? My point proven. Try again. 2 plu 2 equals 4. Of course you could say 2 plus 2 equals 4.0000000000000000000000000000000000 if want to be exact but everyone knows what you mean.
Perhaps if you would stop shaking your head vigorously, you would not have these is understandings so often young man.
Jan, my computer has evolved a smooth place in the middle in which i control the outcome with my forehead. It took millions of years to form that smooth spot just for my forehead. Hey if evolution can happen to animals then I suppose it could happen to inanimate objects as well. Same principle. an object develops a new charicteristic all on its own. Wait, not an inanimate object would need , GASP, an INtelligence Designer. Same thing with animals. HA HA! Gotcha.
@JV
The fact that your govenrment has the authority to control you as it does is by definition tyranny. See, you even think like they want you to think. I refuse to comply.
@ mandas, sorry for the gun rant, but it had to be said. If this traitor gun ban nonsense goes through, I just hope the Joint Cheifs step in and offer a new outlook to those about to commit treason. After all, our military does swear an oath to protect the Constitution and the people under it, so if any amendment is under attack, then why not get the military to step in and defend it? It would be a perfectly legal move given that they swore to defend their country from threats foreign and DOMESTIC and right now the largest threat to the American people is its own government, mostly in the democrat party, but not entirely.
I finally agree with something EAP has said:
"After all, our military does swear an oath to protect the Constitution and the people under it, so if any amendment is under attack, then why not get the military to step in and defend it?
The military should be used to defend the constitution from all those who seek to overturn the first amendment and article six.
"Your Pie still starts witha 3 does it not? My point proven
First of all its "Pi", not "Pie". And yes, it starts with 3. But by your logic, since 1,000,000 starts with 1, we can just simplify it and write 1, correct?
"2 plu 2 equals 4. Of course you could say 2 plus 2 equals 4.0000000000000000000000000000000000 if want to be exact"
No you can't. 2 + 2 does not equal 4.0000000000000000000000. It equals 4. But then, they teach degrees of accuracy and rounding in high school maths. You should have been listening to your maths (and science) teacher instead of your preacher.
Oh, and just so you are aware, I am not in favour of gun control in the US. In fact, I think that every American should be given an assaule rifle, handgun, uzi and high powered sniper rifle by the government as a first birthday present .
The less Americans there are, the better the world will be.
@ mandas
Yes less americans in the world. Who do you think it was that has been keeping the world for the last century and a half? If it were not for us, you would probably be some commie's nighttime buddy or some slave to a muslim overlord by now. I say your owe us gratitude for you even being alive at all.
I did listen to my math teacher. 2 plus 2 equal 4. pie is 3.14 or as you said, rounded off, a plain old 3.
monkeys never turned into men. Instead of listening to fantasy tales about bearded hairy old men herding turtles on a deserted island, you should have paid attention to reality. No such thing as evolution. As far as global warming fairies go, they probably exist. But I have never seen one. Let me know when you catch one. I will be sure to let al gore know that his troubles are over.
"The military should be used to defend the constitution from all those who seek to overturn the first amendment and article six."
and defnitely the second amendment becuase the first amendment and the second amendment are dependent upon each other. The founders put the right of peasant to defend themselves against their own govenrment as the second most important thing on their list right behind the right for those same peasant to have freedom of expression. Everything else came afterward. So, the second amendment is pretty high up on the importance list in human freedoms I would say.
Dear oh dear EAP. Your poe is getting worse.
"you would probably be some commie’s nighttime buddy
So why is that a problem?
"monkeys never turned into men."
You really should have listened to your science teacher. No-one has ever claimed monkeys turned into men. Go away and do some reading, then we can chat.
" No such thing as evolution."
Then why do you admit that there is? You have already said that all dogs are derived from a single canine species. But I already knew that. The only difference is that you think evoluion of canids took only a few thousand years. I will go with the evidence that suggests it took longer.
"As far as global warming fairies go, they probably exist.
You are the only one around here who believes in fairy stories, so I'm not surprised by that statement. Me - I will go with the evidence thanks.
"as the second most important thing on their list right behind the right for those same peasant to have freedom of expression. Everything else came afterward.
Yeah, you missed a couple of bits. There is the other part of the first amendment - see if you can work out what that is. And you do know that all the amendments came AFTER the original constitution, that's why they are called 'amendments'. All the articles of the constitution came before the things that you think the founders did first - years earlier in fact. So there is that little thing about Article 6 - no religious test and all that stuff. It came before the right to bear arms, so I guess everyone thought it was far more important. Do you? And I wonder if you would be prepared to send in the military to support that one.
You should have listened to your history teacher as well. Did you do any listening at school at all? So far we have established that you didn't listen during maths, science, history and english (spelling, grammar and punctuation). You don't even know your bible very well.
Not much good for anything really, are you?
@mandas,
" No-one has ever claimed monkeys turned into men.
I don't think that we derived from monkeys either. I don't even think that we derived from apes. We ARE apes!
Human beings are just another species among the suborder of Haplorrhini and the family of Hominoidea.
Of course, IC does not know all this. He still believes that he is a direct descendent of Adam and Eve, two fictional characters that according to his believe where formed from dirt.
IC is proof that not all humans evolved.
@IC
"Your Pie still starts witha 3 does it not? My point proven. Try again. 2 plu 2 equals 4. Of course you could say 2 plus 2 equals 4.0000000000000000000000000000000000 if want to be exact but everyone knows what you mean."
Dear oh dear! You really have no idea. For a start, it's PI not Pie, minor quibble.
However, lets try a little experiment. Lets you and I fly around the world in an aircraft. You use the Biblical value of PI (3), and I will use the accepted value of PI to 4 decimal places, (just to make it easy)
diameter of earth = 12 756.2 kilometers
Your value for the total distance you would need to fly is:
3 x 12,756.2 km = 38,268.6 km
My value of PI is 3.1416 to nearest 4 decimal places so,
3.1416 x 12,756.2 = 40,074.9 km, with me so far?
So, we both take on enough fuel for the flight, you for the distance you calculated, and me for the distance I calculated. If we fly Eastwards, from say the coast of California, and travel around the world, then as we are approaching California again, you find that you run out of fuel some 1806.3 kilometers from the coast, (or 1122.38 miles), and plunge into the Pacific and drown, more than 1000 miles from land, while I continue on to a hero's welcome and a well earned beer in San Francisco.
We are talking multiplication here not addition, and getting the calculation wrong could mean lives being lost. I find it incredible that we are even debating this, it's basic first year high school stuff.
Did your mother not teach you that if you know nothing it is better to keep your mouth shut, rather than open it and prove it? Seriously, I would be embarrassed to parade such ignorance in public.
"The fact that your govenrment has the authority to control you as it does is by definition tyranny. See, you even think like they want you to think. I refuse to comply."
Huh? So you don´t pay taxes, for example?
@ JV, Yes I pay 33 percent of my paycheck in some form of tax, plus state sales tax, property tax, vehicle tax, and when I die I get to leave the govenrment even more of MY money just becuase I'm dead. So, I am a 53 percenter. I pay much more tax than should be required.
@ debunker.
I do not plan on flying around the world. If I do I am sure thy have pie in first class provided I survived the TSA molestation program.
Let's do another experiment - pi still has 3 in it. Also, cubits were used back in Biblical days and was not an exact measurement, but soemhow I still think the enlsaved Jews did a pretty good job of building the pyramids for Egypt given they thought pi was 3. Try again.
@ Jan
"we are apes". Well you may be an ape, but I am a human who was CRETATED by a sovereign God, given a soul, and am accountable unto Him. I am no ape nor a monkey's uncle. Your preach blasphemy.
@ mandas
why is that a problem? Well first of all I am no commie, hippe, socialist, or any other rare breed of demon spawn and I certainly no homo, so to be a commie's nightime buddy would be a double sin.
I do not believe in fairies, although fairy stories abound in olden times. You my hairy palmed friend do happene to believ in such nonsense as global warming and evolution. Two of the most unbelievable things in human history. Evidence? what evidence? Please show me the evidence. I would love to see it. Ice melting at the south pole is your evidence that carbon fairies are warming the earth? Well if that is the case then tehy are also hard at work on MARS where the polar ice caps are melting there too. Then again the martians do drive alot of SUVs and have too many coal plants. Maybe that's the culprit eh?
Without the second amendment, all other amendments remain null and void. The right of the citizens to proteact all other amendments from destruction is a fundamental asset to our freedom.
Try again.
"but soemhow I still think the enlsaved Jews did a pretty good job of building the pyramids for Egypt given they thought pi was 3."
Wrong on every count. The pyramids were not built by enslaved jews, since that whole story is a myth. Even if they did, the labourers would have built the things under direction, they would not have designed the things. And what has pi got to do with building a square structure anyway?
"I am no ape nor a monkey’s uncle
Definitely wrong on one count, and probably wrong on the other. You, me, and every hominid is an ape, so that's definitely wrong. And I wouldn't be surprised if members of your ignorant redneck family went around fucking monkeys, so the second point may well be wrong as well.
"so to be a commie’s nightime buddy would be a double sin.
I am not sure why someone's politics or nationality have anything to do with whether or not they would make a suitable bedmate. I think I would be reasonably satisfied to spend all night in bad with Anna Kournakova, but if that''s not your thing and you would rather be in bed all night with George Bush, then go for it.
"I do not believe in fairies"
Yes you do. You said, very clearly: "...As far as global warming fairies go, they probably exist...."
So either you believe in fairies, or you were lying when you said it, or you are lying now. In either case, you have broken one of the ten commandments. Not much of a christian are you?
"You my hairy palmed friend do happene to believ in such nonsense as global warming and evolution".
No I don't. I don't believe in anything. You need to go back and read what I have said - on multiple occasions.
"Without the second amendment, all other amendments remain null and void."
So not only did you not listen during maths, science, history or english, you didn't listen during your civics classes either and are spectacularly ignorant of your own constitutional processes. Go and do some reading - any of the articles or amendments to the constitution can be changed without affecting any of the others.
How come you keep spruiking such ignorant nonsense all the time? It is not even good poe.
"Evidence? what evidence? Please show me the evidence. I would love to see it.
Ahhhh - so you need evidence for this claim do you? Why are you such a hypocrite about evidence? Don't you read your bible and follow it's teachings? I am going to defer to a guy called Sam Harris on this one,because he says it so well:
"Water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen. What if someone says, “Well, that’s not how I choose to think about water.”? All we can do is appeal to scientific values. And if he doesn’t share those values, the conversation is over. If someone doesn’t value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove they should value it? If someone doesn’t value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?"
And on the subject of evidence, here is another quote from Harris:
"Tell a devout Christian that his wife is cheating on him, or that frozen yogurt can make a man invisible, and he is likely to require as much evidence as anyone else, and to be persuaded only to the extent that you give it. Tell him that the book he keeps by his bed was written by an invisible deity who will punish him with fire for eternity if he fails to accept its every incredible claim about the universe, and he seems to require no evidence what so ever."
“It is time we admitted, from kings and presidents on down, that there is no evidence that any of our books was authored by the Creator of the universe. The Bible, it seems certain, was the work of sand-strewn men and women who thought the earth was flat and for whom a wheelbarrow would have been a breathtaking example of emerging technology. To rely on such a document as the basis for our worldview-however heroic the efforts of redactors- is to repudiate two thousand years of civilizing insights that the human mind has only just begun to inscribe upon itself through secular politics and scientific culture. We will see that the greatest problem confronting civilization is not merely religious extremism: rather, it is the larger set of cultural and intellectual accommodations we have made to faith itself.”
More good ones here:
http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/16593.Sam_Harris
"“we are apes”. Well you may be an ape, but I am a human who was CRETATED by a sovereign God"
And you know this how?
“The fact that your govenrment has the authority to control you as it does is by definition tyranny."
So your god, who has ultimate authority to demand compliance is by definition the ultimate tyrant.
@Wow,
how does IC know? Well, his babble tells him so.
And as he also knows, everything his babble says is true!
How does he know that? Well, his babble says so. :-)
I particularly like this quote by Sam Harris:
"Tell a devout Christian that his wife is cheating on him, or that frozen yogurt can make a man invisible, and he is likely to require as much evidence as anyone else, and to be persuaded only to the extent that you give it. Tell him that the book he keeps by his bed was written by an invisible deity who will punish him with fire for eternity if he fails to accept its every incredible claim about the universe, and he seems to require no evidence what so ever.”
Thanks, Mandas! That' religion to a "t"!
@IC,
The value of PI is not really up for discussion. Even your church elders would agree on it. If you take a commercial flight, the GPS your aircraft uses will be using the accepted value of PI, and certainly not the biblical one. In fact, none of our modern satellite telecommunications or GPS's would work if the biblical value was used, and that includes your mobile phone.
Also, it has been conclusively proved by archaeologists that enslaved Jews did not build the pyramid. Apart from that, it is all rectangles, squares and lines, hence no need for PI.
Your lack of education is showing again. My point is, that it would have been extremely easy for God to show us that the Bible is divinely inspired, by getting the value of PI correct, before the Greeks discovered it, or perhaps revealing the existence of a seventh planet, a couple of thousand years before it was discovered. But no, the authors of the bible had precisely the level of scientific knowledge that we would expect some desert nomads to have circa 700 BC.
No divine inspiration here!
@Debunker,
"... hence no need for PI."
Correct, there was no need to know the value of PI. Nevertheless for all I know, the Cheops Pyramid has the value of PI in its measurements, because the ration of length to height is PI.
But that is easily explained: Since the Egyptians worshipped the sun, they may have used a big disk and rolled it along the ground, say 100 times to set the length of the pyradmid's base. And then decided to set the height to 100 diameters: and BINGO! there's your PI since the circumference of a circle is diameter (which equals twice the radius) x PI (the last bit is for IC to understand what I am talking about, as I take it that his knowledge of maths does not exceed very basic artihmetics.) :-)
So even if PI is found somewhere in the basic measurements of ancient buildings, it does not necessarily mean that its builders where aware of the value of PI.
"Tell him that the book he keeps by his bed was written by an invisible deity who will punish him with fire for eternity if he fails to accept its every incredible claim about the universe, and he seems to require no evidence what so ever.”
Pfft.
Those are WEAK faithiests!
The TRUE faithiest, i.e. the IC (weiner) level of faithiest would DEMAND infinitely reliable proof of it being NOT written by some magic sky fairy!
IC
"@ JV, Yes I pay 33 percent of my paycheck in some form of tax, plus state sales tax, property tax, vehicle tax, and when I die I get to leave the govenrment even more of MY money just becuase I’m dead. So, I am a 53 percenter. I pay much more tax than should be required."
And you don´t see how this ridicules your "huh, you let the government control you" nonsense, do you?
Pffft. It completely devastates his "I will not comply" libertard psalm.
@JV
You are correct. It is a prime insult for me to pay taxes so that someone else can sit at home and play video games while I have to work for 45 hours per week or longer. A while back I was hearing some eft wing chatter regarding the deportation of tea party members. Well, go a head and deport all the conservatives and see how long your welfare state lasts then. That's right. Deport all the people who pay for other people's stuff. Real smart.
Terrible. Them making you have to work and all.
Shocking.
Of course, you could always give up work and live off state handouts.
I mean, if it's all so lovely and gets you so much money, like you say, then you'd be a fool not to resign right now and go on the dole!
Of course the biggest scroungers of them all...
http://chamber.350.org/2011/04/how-to-get-government-handouts-for-oil-c…
It is also very un-Christ-like your hatred here for taxes.
Mark 12:17
And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.
You would deny the commandments of your lord?
YOU ARE GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL
That´s just gibberish...
Given that EAP's job mainly consists of asking people: "Would you like fries with that?", I can say with absolute certainty that the pittance that he pays in taxes does not even go close to paying for the full range of government services that he receives.
EAP - and all his ilk - are huge drains on the government purse, and we all would be better of without him.
My "that´s just gibberish"-answer was - I think I don´t need to point it out - for Insufficient Combatant. When I posted yesterday there weren´t comments between my answer and his post... (?)
@mandas,
All of your fairy global warming stories and attempts to poke fun at me have been in vain up until your last comment. I receive no government benefits. I get no government check, no food stamps, nothing. Ziltch. ZERO. I am unhappy to announce that I pay for most everyone else's stuff around me though. I do not work in fast food and never have. I work in the electronics industry and am quite capable of troubleshooting, repairing, and even in some cases designing and building RF related electronic equipment. No, not silly little CB radios either. I work on equipment similarly in relation to how MRI and CT machines work. So, I guess you could call me a scienctist of sorts, except I have never seen a transistor evolve from nothing all by itself. I wonder if we put some copper, cobalt, aluminum, plastic and a whole host of components togetehr, just how long would it take for a fully functional MOSFET to evolve? In the world of electrical current and RF, assure you that God is present in its creation.
@Wow
I am sorry that I cannot do what you ask. I am honest, therefore I cannot steal from others' hard work in order to pay for my own handouts. Besides, the state would never let me do that. I am a single white conservative male. Those types are not allowed to receive benefits, just pay for yours. Any other bright ideas?
You won't see them evolve until you see a mummy transistor and a daddy transistor have a little baby transistor. However, once you have replication with the possibility of variation in the progeny, then you will see evolution.
Nevertheless: Something like that exists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolvable_hardware
Well looks like EAP is - once again - completely oblivious to the world around him. When I said this to him:
"the pittance that he pays in taxes does not even go close to paying for the full range of government services that he receives.
His response was:
I receive no government benefits. I get no government check, no food stamps, nothing. Ziltch. ZERO. I am unhappy to announce that I pay for most everyone else’s stuff around me though.
I have to wonder, though EAP. Who pays for the armed forces? Who pays for your police department and fire brigade? Who builds your roads? Who empties your garbage?
You have no fucking idea how much you receive in government assistance. The value of all of these things far exceeds the pittance you pay in taxes. You are a nett beneficiary of government assistance - you get back more than you put in.
Not only that, it is people like you - redneck southerners - who benefit the most from government assistance. Southern redneck states are drains on the economy, and the north would be far better off financially to cut them free.
Poke fun at you? I'm not poking fun at you. You're poking fun at you. I'm just pointing to all the stupid things you say.
"I am no commie, hippe, socialist, or any other rare breed of demon spawn and I certainly no homo, so to be a commie’s nightime buddy would be a double sin."
you realise that women are capable of holding political opinions too, right?
@mandas,
but you must admit that there is one thing IC never received as a government benefit: a proper education! :-)
IC you have broken the commandments of your saviour.
You are not a christian.
"You have no fucking idea how much you receive in government assistance."
No IC, like all redneck idiots, believes that all these things he gets from government are his by right and aren't a benefit.
He thinks "benefit" only means cash money.
Because, unlike his saviour, money is all that IC thinks of. They love money. And we know what that means.
"I am sorry that I cannot do what you ask."
No, you definitely can.
You will not.
Because despite all the whining and moaning about how brilliant these people have it, you know that the existence on welfare is a horrendouse struggle in poverty.
The same deal happens with all the whining about "Free medical in prison" and how inmates get their free Playstation 2s etc. They know that this is all bullshit, else they'd go in prison.
Despite your whining, welfare isn't a life of luxury.
Which is why you won't do it.
Mor evidence of IC's apostasy:
Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me
@ wow,
I think you should go back and read the whole story and then get back to me. Seems like you left out a good bit of background information there.
@ ligne,
Yes I am aware that WOMEN are capable of holding political positions as well as opinions - Sarah Palin, Nicki Haley, Michele Bachmann, Ann Coulter, etc. The list goes on. What is our point?
@Richard Simmons
Ok, but where does the mummy and daddy transitor come from originally - an intelligent creator has to make them. Right? Epic fail on your part. Please go do some more exercises. Oh and replication with variation has a name - speciation, or adaptation for weak minds like yours. No such thing as evolution. I doubt if that trasistor would ever be anything other than a transistor. Sure you can change polarity and styles and make a MOSFET or JFET, but guess what? They are still a transistor. No change. Now, if you could through your so called replication and variation change that transistor into an ice cube or a hamburger over "millions of years" then ok, I will accept evilution - when I see it. After all that's what you propose. In animate objects floating into empty space beoming living creatures over long periods of time. Sounds nearly as foolish as carbon fairies warming the earth.
@ everyone else
I have received ZERO government benefits. Sure you could count "education" as a government benefit, but more like a taxpayer benefit since government cannot exist without the working man's money.
"I have received ZERO government benefits.
EAP still doesn't get it, so let me explain how governmen's work - in the simplest possible terms for a moron like him.
You pay taxes to the government, and in return the government provides you with things like services and infrastructure. You know - your tax dollars build the roads you drive on, the schools you go to, and they pay the salaries of people like teachers, fireman, police and soldiers.
And in the case of people likee EAP, they pay far less in taxes than the cost of the things they receive. Government services are not just welfare benefits - they are things like roads and schools. They subsidise the cost of the petrol you put in your tank and the goods you buy at the supermarket and at walmart. They pay for the military forces that keep you safe, and they assist companies to set up factories etc in which rednecks are employed. They even subsidise the cost of the church in which you pray to your mythical sky fairy.
But because people like EAP are so spectacularly ignorant of government processes, they just don't get this. But then, I have to ask, what does EAP get?
"I have received ZERO government benefits."
You've received many benefits from being governed.
Your church receives many benefits from government.
You, however, are no Christian.
"Seems like you left out a good bit of background information there."
Nope. You want that to be true, but you're just plain wrong.
You are apostate and not a follower of Christ.
You're just a cult member with delusions of grandeur.
"But then, I have to ask, what does EAP get?"
He gets told he needs to be angry at government because it's a nigger in the whitehouse, and a nonchristian (i.e. nigger) too!
(note I use that word because that is PRECISELY the word they mean to use)
I have looked up dictionary definitions of insanity, and have to conclude that IC is most probably insane or psychotic.
Consider this definition of insane :
extreme foolishness or irrationality. Yup, that's IC!
Then Psychotic:
mental illness in which thought and emotions lose connection with external reality. Yup, IC to a T!
However, I suspect he is not neurotic, because neurotics are still able to distinguish what is real from what is not.
IC fails miserably there. Just thought I would share this :)
@ wow
I am no apostate. So called churches who embrace the opposite of good are apostates. Homo marriage, infanticide, fornication, etc. "churches" who embrace sin as normal are apostates. Methinks you need to look up the definition of apostate.
@ mandas,
Part of what you stated is supposed to be how government works. You ledft out the part where fornicators can get free baby killer drugs and get their sex diseases paid for by taxpayers. I wonder where in the constitution the founding fathers envsioned sex diseases as top priority for government taxation?
You also left out the part where exhibit a gets to work and pay taxes so exhibit b can exploit his reasosn for not wanting to work and get benefits that exhibit a paid for while exhibit a gets denied the same benefits that he paid for someone else to have.
mandas, I recieve ZERO government benefits. I recieve no food stamps, welfare, sex disease check, fornication pills (birth control), not any other item. The roads, schools, military, police, an such are a given. They are necessary, the other crap is not. So, I actually pay for raods and military and police and schools and such, but I also get to use them. I am no left wing fornication addict, so I suppose I have no need in government subsidies offinancial government support of immoral lifestyles. Try again
Fuck you are an idiot EAP. When are you going to get this?
"The roads, schools, military, police, an such are a given. They are necessary, the other crap is not. So, I actually pay for raods and military and police and schools and such, but I also get to use them......I recieve ZERO government benefits
Wrong as per usual. Roads etc are NOT a given. They are built and supplied by governments using the taxes that they collect. You derive a benefit from using them. The only problem is, that you do not pay nearly enough taxes to cover the cost of the benefit that you derive from them. Do you get this yet? The taxes you pay do not cover the full cost of the services you are provided with by governments. You and your ilk suck at the teat of governments.
You are a useless leach who relies on the government to subsidise your lifestyle, and you are a very poor christian. You are a liar and a hypocrite who does not even follow the laws laid down by your god. You know nothing about mathematics, science, english, history or civics. You don't even know what is in the bible, despite all your moralising and preaching.
I have to ask - what the fuck are you good for? You claim to be a single white conservative male. Nothing surprising there - at least we will be spared the horror of such an uneducated moron producing any offspring. No self respecting woman would ever want to have sex with you, and would certainly abort the lump of cells inside her if she was ever drunk enough to do so.
Watch EAP's head explode:
http://news.yahoo.com/national-cathedral-perform-same-sex-weddings-0503…
“The roads, schools, military, police, an such are a given. They are necessary, the other crap is not. So,"
So you think they are all free.
They are built and maintained and staffed for no fee?
mandas, you should apologize in front of the audience for your rudeness and primitivity
"I recieve no food stamps, welfare, sex disease check, fornication pills (birth control), not any other item. The roads, schools, military, police, an such are a given. They are necessary, the other crap is not"
Welfare and food stamps are "unnecessary crap"? What a highlight of a Christian you are...
"27 And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own.
28 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year’s produce and store it in your towns, 29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands." (Dtn, 14)
Yup, IC is disregarding his Holy Book and His God at every turn.
If there were to be an afterlife, we'd be laughing our bollocks off at IC trying his in Hell.
In the US, food production is also heavily subsidized through, for example, the Corp of Engineers being responsible for keeping major shipping routes open at no or minimal charge to shippers (eg maintaining the Mississippi) and the provision of low-cost irrigation water. Even if IC does not buy these products directly, they reduce the market costs nationally.
What if I choose to grow my own vegetables and kill my own meat mr. Richard Simons? I really do not like your new fangled GMO crap.
@JV
I see no mention of government aid to fornicators in those verses my friend! Can you provide one? I thought not.
@mandas
Yes I already know all about the apostate cathedral preachers in washington performing blashemer marriages. That's nothing new. I just wish I could see the look on that apostate's face when God asks him why he sided with satan but still resided in the cathedral
Roads are paid for by 53 percent of the population. The rest pay no taxes, so does that mean that only people who pay taxes get to ride on the roads? Sounds good to me. What a racket. 53 percent work to pay for the roads, the turn around and pay more taxes so government can provide free cars to those who paid in no taxes at all. They contributed nothing. SPONGE!
I am glad some drunk woman does not want to sleep with me. Prefferably I stay away from woemn who are alcoholics, left wingers, militant feminazis, and the rest of modern ilk. I may die alone, but I assume that is better than living with a modern tyrant know it all who does nothinhg but rant, rave, and give order and expect more money.
What are you good for mandas? Teach people how monekys turned into men over time? Worship carbon fairies who warm the earth. Fall at the altar of the government God? No sane person would ever give a person like you power. That's how castro got where he is. Marxist kook. You know nothing about the Bible, Creationism, or anything. You know even less about real life. Do me a favor, be a good little left winger and go stand at the edge of the grand canyon and do what you do best - "move forward". Oh and on you fall downawrd please notice how the grand canyon was formed as a result of the global flood of Noah's day. Try again.
"I receive no government benefits. I get no government check, no food stamps, nothing. Ziltch. ZERO. I am unhappy to announce that I pay for most everyone else’s stuff around me though........The roads, schools, military, police, an such are a given. They are necessary, the other crap (welfare and food stamps) is not" EAP
"But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him?" 1 John 3:17
"What are you good for mandas?........ You know nothing about the Bible, Creationism, or anything. You know even less about real life. Do me a favor, be a good little left winger and go stand at the edge of the grand canyon and do what you do best – “move forward”. EAP
"Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality. Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. Romans 12:13-15
In the beginning God CREATED the Heavens and the earth.
Mandas has still not provided a verse where fornication and sex diseases are supposed to be covered by tax payers. I thought adultery and homosexuality were illegal?
Oh and atheists cannot quote a book from which they do not believe exists. Its like a conservative quoting al gore on global warming and such.
Mandas has still not provided a verse where fornication and sex diseases are supposed to be covered by tax payers.
Not only did I not realise that I was supposed to do this, I actually don't care what it says in the bible - only you do. Interestingly enough, I can't find anywhere in the bible where it says anything about using taxes to build airports either.
"I thought adultery and homosexuality were illegal?
Then, as usual, you thought wrong. They are illegal in theocracies like Iran and Saudi Arabia though - maybe you were thinking of that. Perhaps you would prefer to live in a theocracy. But then, given that you have said how much you support for the US constitution, you would obviously oppose to the death any attempt to impose a religious test for public office, right? I would love to hear your views on this. Please enlighten us all.
"Oh and atheists cannot quote a book from which they do not believe exists"
I'm pretty confident there isn't an atheist in the world who thinks that the bible does not exist, so it is pretty easy to open it to a random page and quote from it. I even own a copy. It is in my bookshelf in the fiction section, right next to Grimms's Fairy Stories.
And what's the matter EAP? Don't you like having your failings as a christian pointed out to you? If that's the case, you should start following what the bible teaches, rather than what you are being told by your evangelist leaders. But first you need to read it and understand it. You're not doing too well in that regard so far.
Looks like you do not understand it. marxism is nowhere in the Bible. As a matter of fact marxism is evil.
Theocracy? Well technically when Jesus returns and His people rule the nations I suppose you could call that a theocracy. Homosexuality and adultery are illegal according to the LAW of God. That trumps the law of man since man gets law from God in the first place.
EAP? I never said my name was Wyatt.
Unpraying Mandas. HA! I assume you keep a copy of Rules for Radicals and the communist/a-hole Manifesto in the trash section too? If not, I urge you to burn them before kids get a chance to read that satanic dribble for thought.
Mandas, someone should catch the flu on purpose just so that they could walk up to you and lick your face and give it to you. Don;t worry. I can offer you some colloidal silver. That is a great plan though. If the feds are pestering someone about guns and they plan on confiscating guns I urge flu plagued gun owners to sneeze, cought an lick their guns and then hand them to them over with joy. Nothing like all of washington reaping the benefit of their labor.
Well that was a lot of gibberish EAP - WTF are you talking about?
But you never addressed my request. Would you please tell us about your views about the how the constitution prohibits there being a religious test for public office.
You seem to be a great suporter of the constitution, judging by your posts. Tell us, do you support the constitution, and would you actively oppose any attempt to allow a religious test for public office? It's not a difficult question - give it a go.
"That trumps the law of man since man gets law from God in the first place.
I checked, and I could not find anything where your god has mentioned anything about insider trading, or not burning flags, or air traffic control regulations. Looks like you are wrong again EAP (and it is Wyatt EARP . You are showing your ignorance of history again). Laws come from the parliament. Even in secular countries - like yours - they have laws you know. In fact, I specifically remember something in your constitution about not making laws respecting the establishment of any religion. What do you think of that one as well? Would you fight to the death to support that one?
my point? well, lets review that particular thread.
IC: If it were not for us, you would probably be some commie’s nighttime buddy
mandas: So why is that a problem?
IC: why is that a problem? Well first of all I am no commie, hippe, socialist, or any other rare breed of demon spawn and I certainly no homo, so to be a commie’s nightime buddy would be a double sin.
can see what you did yet?
“That trumps the law of man since man gets law from God in the first place."
If so, why do we wear cotton mix clothes?
Why is eating shellfish not a crime?
Why isn't it a capital offence to blaspheme or work on the Sabbath?
Why isn't the Sabbath Saturday for Christians?
If God gave us laws that trump our own, we're not following them.
Especially not YOU, IC.
"Mandas has still not provided a verse where fornication and sex diseases are supposed to be covered by tax payers."
There isn't.
But when you live in the USA, you live by the USA laws.
Or are you wanting a Islamist fundamentalist state to be there in the USA instead?
You know, EXACTLY like the Taliban?
IC proves time and again that he does not know his bible:
IC says: "marxism is nowhere in the Bible. As a matter of fact marxism is evil."
But the bible says (Luke 18:22):"You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven."
If that's not marxism? :-)
Yes, IC is definitely not a Christian. fundamentalists like him are never Christians, because they stick with the Old Testament, that book of horrors, where the most abominable characters appear.
Take, e. g., the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, after they have been destroyed. Lot - the most righteous of all people alive (hilarious laughter!) - flees the city with his two daughters. Some time later he gets so drunk he does not know what he is doing and knocks up both of his daughters.
The poor people of Sodom and Gomorrah, who acted not much differently, were wiped off the face of the Earth, but Lot - as we all know, was the most blessed person of his time (hilarious laughter again!).
If more people actually started to READ the bible, rather than to refer to it from hearsay, it ought to be indexed for being liable to have an undesirable influence on the moral development of young people. And not only young people for that matter. The bible corrupts anyone who tries to follow its teachings:
Homicide, genocide, infanticide, mysogyny, and many more legal and moral crimes are performed to follow the will of thie biblical god, you know: the most unpleasant character in world literature.
IC says:
"Unpraying Mandas. HA! I assume you keep a copy of Rules for Radicals and the communist/a-hole Manifesto in the trash section too? If not, I urge you to burn them before kids get a chance to read that satanic dribble for thought."
Well, IC should be told NOT to give kids a chance to read his bible, for it would corrupt their young minds if they believed what they were reading.
Fortunately no intelligent being that has ever read the bible in its completeness, actually fell for it.
Take Winston Churchill as an example:
"There is a funny story about WC when he was in the army. He had borrowed one of his fellow soldier's bible to read. As he was laying on his bunk reading the borrowed bible, every now then they he would laugh out loud and exclaim "Isn't this God of yours a total S*it!!"
@ Jan
Hmmm. So I suppose the Billions of christians in existance never read the entire Bible once? Prove it!
Yes Jan Lot sinned. Guess what. Mankind is sinful. We fall for satan's temptations. No man is righteous enough to enter into Heaven. That is why Jesus died in our place, so that those who believe in Him would have an eternity in Heaven rather than in hell with satan and the fallen ones. The most righteous men of the Bible were all sinners. Every person ever born is a sinner.
You liberals still advocate that socialism is Biblical, but it is not. CHARITY is what you are thinking of. Jesus did tell people to sell everything they had and ive the money to the poor AND to follow Him. You left that part out. Undersocialism religion is banished and the government itself becomes the God authority. Oh and under socialism Jesus would have had the Roman army just to confiscate people's wealth at the point of a sword and have the Roma government to redistribute it. What Jesus advocated was charity and kindness from the heart, not armed robbery. Technically marxism is a legal way of pointing a weapon at someone and confiscating their belongings. Jesus never advocated this.
@WOW,
The USA was founded upon Judeo Christina principles, not muslim principles. The taliban are anti-christian and pro caliphate meaning they will more than likely support or even bring about the coming muslim anti-christ. You give poor examples for soemone who claims to be so smartsy.
@ligne
No. what did i do? Call communism a sin? Well, stealing is listed under the 10 commandments as a sin and communism is a federal version of armed robbery, so it is a sin.
@ mandas
under our constitution, government cannot establish a religion, nor can it prohibit the exercise of religion. If kids ina schools want to pray, that is NOT government establsihment. That is established by the kids and parents. Usually the government does prohibit though.
There is no religious test for public office per say, but voters themselves have a right to vote for thir candidate of choice based upon the criteria that they feel is the most important. You may vote for a person who endorses same sex "marriage" and infanticide while your neighbor may only vote for someone who is a Christian, Jew, Muslim, or whatever it may be. It is the voters who choose the religious test for running candidates. I would never vote for a candidate who talked down about America suhc as abolishing the second amendment, waging war on Christmas, endorsing gay so called "marriage" and infanticide. Sorry, but if both candidates happened to be insane liberals, my bet bet would just to stay home.
I'm sure what you'll find is that the prohibition of the school organizing prayer sessions, not a prohibition on prayer itself. Indeed, how is it possible to prevent someone from praying, especially as anyone following Christ's teachings will do it quietly, to themselves, so no-one else notices?
If the paryer session is prohibited, then is the prayer as well not prohibited since the purpose of the session was to have PUBLIC prayer? What i would love to see is people take pictures of the school and the grounds and set up giant cardboard cutout posters of the school somewhere on private property and make it look exactly like the school surroundings and get together and pray there and pretend they are at the school do to annoy the prohibitors.
Great job EAP - now answer the question.
Would you defend to the death any attempt to change the constitution to impose a religious test for public office, or to allow the making of a law respecting the establishment of any religion?
Simple really.
"What i would love to see is people take pictures of the school and the grounds and set up giant cardboard cutout posters of the school somewhere on private property and make it look exactly like the school surroundings and get together and pray there and pretend they are at the school do to annoy the prohibitors
Stop talking about it and do it then. Of course, no-one would care, since it wouldn't violate the constitution or any laws. It would just be par for the course for fundies to act in such a deluded manner. But if it would make you feel better to mumble an invocation to a pretend deity inside a pretend school, go ahead.
Even though the founder of Christianity specifically enjoined his followers not to pray in public? Perhaps you should think of the legal ban on public prayers in schools as a means of enforcing one of the tenets of Christianity.
@all
IC said: "Hmmm. So I suppose the Billions of christians in existance never read the entire Bible once? Prove it!"
That's fairly easy to prove. All you have to do is talk to Christians and test them on their knowledge of the bible. The vast majority of them fail utterly!
Even in the "most Christian of all countries" - the USA, only a self-professed 10% to 30% claim to ever having read the bible completely. Subtract the liars and those who only BELIEVE to have read all of it and you will end up with considerably less than 10%.
Fact is that a much higher percentage of atheists in western countries have a sound knowledge of the bible than the so-called Christians.
"Even though the founder of Christianity specifically enjoined his followers not to pray in public?"
Indeed their actions that are EXPLICITLY AGAINST the teachings of their god indicates that IC and other godbotherers no more believe in Heaven and the afterlife than any atheist or nihilist.
If they DID believe in it like they said, they'd not be risking eternal Hell merely so that they can gain material wealth in this life.
"So I suppose the Billions of christians in existance never read the entire Bible once? Prove it! "
Easy.
You say you suppose billions of christians never read the entire bible once.
Therefore this proves you suppose billions of christians never read the entire bible once.
"The USA was founded upon Judeo Christina principles, not muslim principles"
Where did I say that it was founded on muslim principles?
I said you wanted the USA CHANGED to a fundamentalist muslim country just like the taliban.
Which you do.
PS you're also incorrect about the founding principles of the USA. It was founded on the principles of atheistic enlightenment. Because there's one thing religion like yours wants to do: BAN ALL OTHER RELIGIONS. Therefore religious freedom is only going to come from atheist enlightenment.
@Wow,
“The USA was founded upon Judeo Christina principles, ...”
This is actually one of the myths - or rather lie - purported by the so-called Christians. However, in reality it is nothing more than an easily refutable falsification of history:
"The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense founded on the Christian religion
by Jim Walker
Many Religious Right activists have attempted to rewrite history by asserting that the United States government derived from Christian foundations, that our Founding Fathers originally aimed for a Christian nation. This idea simply does not hold to the historical evidence.
Of course many Americans did practice Christianity, but so also did many believe in deistic philosophy. Indeed, most of our influential Founding Fathers, although they respected the rights of other religionists, held to deism and Freemasonry tenets rather than to Christianity."
http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm
So-called Christians like IC tend to lie about everything as long as it serves their despicable agenda.
And the pilgrims were latecomers, moving to the USA not for religious freedom but the freedom to exclude other people their religious freedom.
I.e. a Taliban fundamentalist government.
@Jan
I did not say that the founders intended for the nation to be soley Christian, but the principles upon which it was built was primarily of Christian history and heritage. Freedom itself is a Christian principle.
http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755
@wow
No I do not. I am not waging war in order to form a global caliphate to be ruled by one man. I am not advocating the same thing as the taliban / muslim brotherhood/ hezbollah/hamas, etc.
Richard Simons,
Really? Exactly WHO was the founder of Christianity. To my knowledge Jesus prayed in public many many times. I never once read about Him asked his followers to be respectful of evil men and NOT pray in public.
@mandas,
No I would not fight to the death to defend some stupid politician no matter what his religion is. Would you fight to the death to get obummer elected for a third, fourth, fifth and sixth time under Resolution 51?
However, I would not bow to the god of a dictator. The day is comi9ng when one man rules the entire earth and everyone will be forec to bow to a man made idol of which he will have the power to bring to life. Anyone who does not bow to this idol will be beheaded. Sounds like a muslim anti-christ to me. I will not comply. Going down in a balze of glory an inheriting a kingdom is far better than bowing to a false idol and burning in hell.
@Wow who has never read anything
You said and I quote (with my eyes rolled):
If so, why do we wear cotton mix clothes?
Becuase we are not under the law of leviticus. Those laws were made by Jewish elders. The children of Israel were given 10 laws to follow and out of those ten they created 614 more. The thing about eating bugs with four legs and wearing cloth were Jewish religious law and the moment Jesus fulfilled prophecy by coming here the old Testament laws were replaced by grace and salvation through the death and ressurection of Jesus.
Why is eating shellfish not a crime? See answer for the last one.
Why isn’t it a capital offence to blaspheme or work on the Sabbath? It is. Perhaps not under mortal man's code, but it is still considered a sacred day under God's law. It would not bother me if every retail store in America closed on sunday.
Why isn’t the Sabbath Saturday for Christians? What difference does it make? The sabbath was A day, not a certain day of the week. When God CREATED (not evolved) man, he was instructed to labor for six days and to rest on the seventh. I read nowhere in the text where God told Adam to rest on saturday.
If God gave us laws that trump our own, we’re not following them. You are correct. You are finally geting it. It's called SIN and rebellion.
"I am not waging war in order to form a global caliphate to be ruled by one man"
Neither is islam.
Like I said, you want to create an islamist fundamentalist state just as the Taliban want to do.
"No I would not fight to the death to defend some stupid politician no matter what his religion is. Would you fight to the death to get obummer elected for a third, fourth, fifth and sixth time under Resolution 51?"
So what happened to your defence of the constitution then? Looks like - yet another - example of EAP's hypocrisy. Let's just list some of them:
He advocates freedom - but only for the principles he endorses.
He supports the constitution - but only those articles and amendments he likes.
He doesn't believe in evolution - but acknowledges that all canids descended from a common ancestor.
He requires evidence of global warming - but not for the claims in the bible.
He says he is a christian - but does not follow christian teachings.
He doesn't like the welfare state - except for the benefits he derives from the government that he doesn't pay for.
He claims to have a tertiary education (well, community college anyway) but does not understand basic maths, science, english, history or civics.
He lies - a lot!
Not only is he a terrible christian - he is a terrible human being.
And when are you going to get this EAP? Do you really need me to spell it out to you? I would not fight to get Obama reelected because - wait for this - I am not an American.
Are you really that stupid that you haven't worked that out yet?
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.
I wonder what tree hugging hippie commie said that?
@Richard Simons,
that only proves once again that people like IC - and like MOST people who claim to be Christians - DO NOT know what their religion is about. They only blabber out things they have picked up from hearsay.
Any intelligent person who actually READS the bible must inevitably realize that it is full of mutually exclusive claims. That also explains why there are more than 30,000 Christian denominations in the USA alone, because whatever way people's minds are twisted, they will always find something in the bible to "support" their view and the more ruthless among them then found a new denomination so they can start to milk their flock.
As to be expected the website IC linked to, is one of historical falsification.
John Adams had a far more differentiated view of the Christian tenets than IC would like us to believe:
"Summary of Religious Views:
Adams was raised a Congregationalist, but ultimately rejected many fundamental doctrines of conventional Christianity, such as the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus, becoming a Unitarian. In his youth, Adams' father urged him to become a minister, but Adams refused, considering the practice of law to be a more noble calling. Although he once referred to himself as a "church going animal," Adams' view of religion overall was rather ambivalent: He recognized the abuses, large and small, that religious belief lends itself to, but he also believed that religion could be a force for good in individual lives and in society at large. His extensive reading (especially in the classics), led him to believe that this view applied not only to Christianity, but to all religions.
Adams was aware of (and wary of) the risks, such as persecution of minorities and the temptation to wage holy wars, that an established religion poses. Nonetheless, he believed that religion, by uniting and morally guiding the people, had a role in public life."
http://www.adherents.com/people/pa/John_Adams.html
Like all intelligent people of their time, Adams was critical of Christianity, although, as a politician who wanted to be re-elected he could not be too outspoken about his personal beliefs.
"I never once read about Him asked his followers to . . . NOT pray in public. "
"But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. Mathew 6:6""
Thereby proving IC hasn't read the entire bible.
A nice video that fits our discussion to a t:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPnUzRFDyQw
Also interesting to see that the bible itself disproves trinity:
"Mark 13:32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
If the bible accepted trinity, it could not make a difference between "Son" and "Father", i. e., Jesus and god. According to Chrisitan dogma they are one, so what knows one, so must know the other.
Of course, trinity is a - not very clever but rather primitve - trick: if a believer accepts the dogma of trinity, which is a totally irrational and absurd concept, they will believe any other nonsense that their church tells them as well. :-)
Religion in context:
http://www.jesusandmo.net/
Ok, lets go through these silly items one at a time:
He advocates freedom – but only for the principles he endorses. REAL FREEDOM SOMES FROM GOD AND NOT MAN
He supports the constitution – but only those articles and amendments he likes. I SUPPORT THE CONSTITUTON UNLESS SOME TRAITOR PROPOSES SOMETHING THAT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL
He doesn’t believe in evolution – but acknowledges that all canids descended from a common ancestor. YES A COMMON ANCESTOR THAT WAS CREATED BY GOD SPEAKING IT INTO EXISTANCE.
He requires evidence of global warming – but not for the claims in the bible. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SO CALLED MAN MADE GLOBAL WARMING, SO EVIDENCE OF IT IS NULL AND VOID.
He says he is a christian – but does not follow christian teachings. I DO TRY. I MAY FAIL AT TIMES, BUT I AM ONLY HUMAN. MARXIST IS NOT CHRISTIAN, IT IS SATANIC.KARL MARX WAS A LAZY BUM THAT WANTED FREE STUFF AND WANTED SOEMONE ELSE TO WORK FOR IT. THAT IS NOT BIBLICAL BECUASE BIBLICAL PRINCIPLES TEACHES THAT MEN SHOULD WORK FOR WHAT THEY HAVE, NOT GET FREE STUFF FROM THE FRUITS OF OTHER PEOPLE'S LABOR
He doesn’t like the welfare state – except for the benefits he derives from the government that he doesn’t pay for. I DO NOT RECEIVE GOVERNMENT BENEFITS. I GET ZERO WELFARE.
He claims to have a tertiary education (well, community college anyway) but does not understand basic maths, science, english, history or civics. I UNDERSTAND THEM PLENTY, I CHOOSE TO IGNORE TEACHINGS THAT CONTRADICT REALYY. EVOLUTION IS NOT SCIENCE. LIBERALS HAVE A WARPED SENSE OF HISTORY THAT I IGNORE AND SO SHOULD EVERYONE ELSE. CIVIC IS NO LONGER TAUGHT IN SCHOOL. HIPPIES BANNED THAT LONG AGO. IT INTERFERED WITH THEIR ANYTHING GOES, NO JUDGEMENTS TYPE THINKING.
He lies – a lot! ONLY WHEN I AM SLEEPING OR WATCHING TV ON THE COUCH.
for everyone else:
I belive what I believe and you go on being what you are and believeing in your stuff and both of us will be happy. while you are handing out websites, might as well look at www.apologeticspress.org I should have guessed you would have called wallbuilders a fake information device, but I have yet to see any of you correct it if you do indeed think it is fake. I wish I could get my hands on a textbok written in the 1920s on american hisory. What a different story it would tell. Just proves that "revisionist" history is a load of crap.
Looks like EAP's head finally exploded. Nice one EAP - did your Caps Lock get stuck?
I would love to take you up on all your points, but I am still confused about your support for the constitution, because you have't answered my question. It was pretty simple:
Would you oppose any attempt to introduce a religious test for public office, and would you oppose any attempt by Congress to make a law establishing a particular religion?
Come on EAP, give it a go, we know you can do it.
And I am glad that you support the constitution unless some traitor proposes something that is unconstiutional, because, we all know, that laws making abortion illegal are unconstitutional, as are laws which provide for prayer in school.
I wish I could get my hands on a textbok written in the 1920s on american hisory. What a different story it would tell.
It sure would! For example, it would probably leave out anything that happened in the past 90 years. Isn't that still a bit modern for you though? You normally get your views from a book that is 500 years old. Still - none of that modern stuff huh? You would much prefer to stay locked in your little time warp.
And here you go EAP, don't say I never do you any favours:
http://www.amazon.com/History-United-States-Illustrated-Press/dp/140653…
" REAL FREEDOM SOMES FROM GOD AND NOT MAN"
Not one you support, though. He wants only slavery. That's what he keeps demanding in that book of yours.
"THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SO CALLED MAN MADE GLOBAL WARMING, SO EVIDENCE OF IT IS NULL AND VOID. "
Shouldn't that be the other way around, no evidence, therefore it doesn't exist?
You know, like reality. Not like religion.
"NOT GET FREE STUFF FROM THE FRUITS OF OTHER PEOPLE’S LABOR"
So build your own roads, police your street yourself, etc. Stop sucking on the government teat.
PS Marx wasn't a satanist. He didn't believe in God, remember?
"I DO NOT RECEIVE GOVERNMENT BENEFITS. I GET ZERO WELFARE. "
You get nonzero benefits. Police, armed forces, water, roads, television reception and a lack of epidemics.
"I CHOOSE TO IGNORE TEACHINGS THAT CONTRADICT REALYY"
Not really.
More the complete opposite.
"I belive what I believe"
You have no reason to believe it though.
"I DO TRY. I MAY FAIL AT TIMES, BUT I AM ONLY HUMAN. "
Pfft. You're not even TRYING. You're adamantly violently AGAINST trying.
Clothe and feed the needy? No, you violently disagree with it STILL.
Render unto your government what is their due? No, "I will not comply".
Accept wisdom and knowledge from the knowledgable? No, you YELL ALL IN CAPS HOW IT DONT EXIST.
You're not even trying to try.
In short, IC, YOU ARE GOING TO HELL.
@IC,
"He claims to have a tertiary education (well, community college anyway) but does not understand basic maths, science, english, history or civics. I UNDERSTAND THEM PLENTY,"
Hmmm, You didn't appear to understand the concept of PI, or even the decimal system earlier on, which is pretty basic maths. Then of course the whole Biblical creation thing about the Universe being, at most 10,000 years old, shows you don't understand basic Physics either. The scientifically derived value for the age of the Universe of around 14 Billion years is based on the distance to the earliest galaxies, which is in turn based on the Doppler effect and the speed of light.
Perhaps you could give us a dissertation on the Doppler effect and then explain why that doesn't contradict your Biblical value for the age of the Universe. You 'understand Physics plenty' so that shouldn't be too hard.
IC says,
"NOT GET FREE STUFF FROM THE FRUITS OF OTHER PEOPLE’S LABOR"
Again he does not know his bible. Matthew 6:25-32 says:
"Matthew 6 (New International Version)
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Matthew 6
New International Version (NIV)
Giving to the Needy
6 “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Prayer
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
9 “This, then, is how you should pray:
“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]
but deliver us from the evil one.[b]’
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Fasting
16 “When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 17 But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18 so that it will not be obvious to others that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Treasures in Heaven
19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy,[c] your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eyes are unhealthy,[d] your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.
Do Not Worry
25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[e]?
28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them."
That website he linked to is absolutely hilarious, as we would have expected, the usual young Earth creationist CRAP.
It has such "wonderful" articles as
"Did the Trees of the Garden of Eden Have Rings?"
As I said: absolutely hilarious. BTW, that reminds me:
Why do people laugh at creationists? (Full video):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Eo5MdHMNcw
As I said: hilarious. IC#s link to that CRAP website advocating young Earth creationism makes interesting reading:
Wrint about the notorious Michael Behe:
"Christians be warned: the poster child of the Intelligent Design movement is no Bible-believer."
http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=9&article=2555&…
So there is one idiot calling another idiot an idiot. :-)
I wonder how IC would do with this quiz? The rest of you might enjoy it too.
http://ffrf.org/legacy/quiz/bquiz.php
“Becuase we are not under the law of leviticus.”
That’s not what JC said. According to Matthew 5:18:
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law
Who is JC?
@Jan
I think that you still do not know the difference between sacrificial giving called charity and forced confiscation and redistribution called socialism. The Bible plainly teaches charity and the giving to those who are in need. Giving of one's time, talents, and money willingly, not becase government pointed their guns at you and forced you to do it.
Oh and people with gold teeth, multiple Cadillacs, a big screen tv with the highest price cable package and the latest cell phone is not by definition a "poor" person. Try again.
@Debunker
Why would you need seven sets of pairs on the ark? Would not one pair be enough? The ark could have held a great number of animals, particularly if the animals were youth and were smaller in stature. It makes sense. The young animals would have been most desired becuase they could reproduce the fastest, they would consume less food, take up less space, etc. Why put a grown t rex on baord when you could put two babies?
Now you talk about physics again. I think you should go back and read Genesis. There are also a great many books dealing with you alleged stars, galaxies, etc problem that you have tried to make up to disprove God's creation. I do indeed beleiev you will fail in your attempts. If not sooner, then later, but you will fail. Pick one from ths site:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers/daily-articles
This is only one of hundreds more like it. I can direct you to some books, authors, articles, websites, whatever. You cannot and will not discreit God's creation, becuase if you do, then as part of God's creation, you discredit yourself to exist.
@Wow
Here we go again. Let's once again go through your pun y little list of rants:
Not one you support, though. He wants only slavery. That’s what he keeps demanding in that book of yours. IT IS NOT MY BOOK. I DID NOT WRITE IT. WE ARE ALL SLAVES TO SIN AND DEATH.
Shouldn’t that be the other way around, no evidence, therefore it doesn’t exist? NOPE.
You know, like reality. Not like religion. RELIGION? WHO IS ATALKING ABOUT RELIGION? I AM REFERRING TO THE GOD WHO CREATED THE UNIVERSE. THAT IS NOT RELIGION. THAT IS FACT.
So build your own roads, police your street yourself, etc. Stop sucking on the government teat. I HAVE BU8ILD ROADS BEFORE. AND BUILDINGS. THE GOVERNMENT IS SUCKING ON MY TEAT. THEY TAKE FROM ME REMEMBER? IF IT WERE NOT FOR MY MONEY AND YOUR MONEY THEY COULD NOT FUNCTION.
PS Marx wasn’t a satanist. He didn’t believe in God, remember? NOT BELIEVING IN GOD IS EXACTLY WHAT SATAN DESIRES EVERYONE TO DO. THAT IS HIS PRIMARY OBJECTIVE. LOOKS LIKE MARX WAS WAY UP ON THE LIST OF SATAN'S HIT LIST.
You get nonzero benefits. Police, armed forces, water, roads, television reception and a lack of epidemics. I GET POLICE. I GET WATER AND CAN GET FREE WATER IF I CHOOSE. IT'S CALLED A WELL. TELEVSION RECEPTION? ONLY ON FAIR DAYS DUE TO GOVERNMEMT CONVERTER BOX CRAP. I LACK AN EPEDIMIC. I AM NOT SICK, BUT IF I WERE, IT WOULD BE DUE TO FORCED VACCINATION FROM THE GOVERNMENT. THESE ARE NOT GOVERNMENT BENEFITS, THESE ARE PRIMARY NECESSATIES. A BENEFIT IS SOMETHING YOU RECIEVE LIKE A GIFT. If you get a paycheck every week, then it is becuse you provided a service to yuor employer. If that same employers decided to compensate you further with a large bonus becuase just becuase, then that is a BENEFIT. A benefit is an unecessary gift It is given to show appreciation. So, stop saying "benefit" when you talk about regular services.
You have no reason to believe it though. I BELIEVE WAHT I BELIEVE FOR THE REASON I SO CHOOSE AND NO FORCE ON THIS PLANET HAS THE POWER NOR THE AUTHORITY TO CHANLLENGE IT.
@mandas
Yes mandas I oppose government trying to establish a particular religion., Outside of obama coddling muslims, which particular "establishment" of religion has out government ever been guilty of? Oh, and a history book written in the 1920s should not differ in its telling of mthe American revolution or the founding of Jamestown as a book written in 2013. History does not change unless some liberal changes it in order to fulfill an endless war against Christianity.
"I DID NOT WRITE IT."
NEVER SAID YOU DID.
But it's the one you prattle on about following. Except you don't. Only when it is convenient.
I.e. apostasy.
" I HAVE BU8ILD ROADS BEFORE. AND BUILDINGS"
YOU HAVE NOT YOU LYING PIGFUCKER! You can't even SPELL it.
"THEY TAKE FROM ME REMEMBER?"
THEY GIVE YOU STUFF FOR IT.
"NOT BELIEVING IN GOD IS EXACTLY WHAT SATAN DESIRES "
HE DOESN'T EXIST EITHER.
"I GET POLICE."
YUP. YOU GET BENEFITS.
"I GET WATER AND CAN GET FREE WATER IF I CHOOSE. IT’S CALLED A WELL"
Which isn't polluted to fuck because of laws and regulations and the inspectors.
ALL BENEFITS YOU PAY FOR AND RECEIVE.
"I LACK AN EPEDIMIC. I AM NOT SICK"
YUP. Because government funded research has eradicated many diseases.
A BENEFIT YOU REAP.
"THESE ARE NOT GOVERNMENT BENEFITS, THESE ARE PRIMARY NECESSATIES"
THEY ARE WHAT YOU PAY GOVERNMENT FOR!
Yet you want these necessities and don't want to pay?
SUCKING ON THE GOVERNMENT TEAT!
"A BENEFIT IS SOMETHING YOU RECIEVE LIKE A GIFT."
NO IT ISN'T.
A benefit is something you receive in return for association.
Health, police, roads, education, etc.
" If you get a paycheck every week, then it is becuse you provided a service to yuor employer. "
And if you pay the government out of your paycheck, then it is because the government provided a service to YOU.
Health, police, roads, education, etc.
"I BELIEVE WAHT I BELIEVE FOR THE REASON I SO CHOOSE "
That reason being "you're a fucking lunatic".
As i have said over and over again, EAP has no frigging idea what is in the bible, and just relies on the direction from his masters on what to do. Take this in his last post for example:
"Why would you need seven sets of pairs on the ark? Would not one pair be enough?
Well EAP, you would need seven pairs of animals on the ark because...... THAT'S WHAT GOD TOLD NOAH TO TAKE.
Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female."
And the reason for this is pretty obvious:
"And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him..... Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.....And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
The first thing Noah did when he got off the ark was to kill and sacrifice a whole bunch of animals. So unless he had a few spare lying around, those particular animals weren't going to be doing a lot of breeding. And there are a LOT of clean animals, so Noah would have had to take a lot of 7 pairs. These include:
cattle, bison, antelope, goats. sheep, moose, reindeer, giraffes (yes - giraffes are mentioned in the bible as clean animals), chickens, geese, ducks, swans, turkeys, etc, as well as dozens of fish species. (there a lots more - these are just examples)
So here's a tip for free EAP. If you are going to be a fundie poe troll, you need to have a basic understanding of what is in the bible. You........ don't.
Oh, and if there is anyone around who thinks that a single breeding pair is sufficient to re-establish a species, they obviously know nothing about biology and species population dynamics. For example, elephants do not reach sexual maturity until they are about 15 - 20 years old. They have a gestation period of nearly 2 years, and do not breed again for 4 - 5 years. EAP has claimed that Noah took babies on the ark (even though it says nothing about that in the bible - he just made it up) so on that basis it would have been at least 17 years afterwards that the first elephant baby would have been born - and 23-24 before the second was born. Not exactly a great way to reestablish a population - especially if one of them had been eaten by a hungry lion (and they would have been very hungry!). And yes EAP, I know the bible says they only ate grass etcc before the flood - but what did they eat afterwards?
@ wow
I have built road and building. Do not be so ashamed and embarrased that you have not. Calling me names will not stop me from building more roads and more buildings in the future. A driveway is a road is it not? A shed is a building is it not? Do not be jealous. be of good cheer. i am sure that somewhere a taxpayer is waiting to build you one for free.
Saying satan doesn;t exist is also a trap. You fell for it. The oldest lie on the face of the earth. Evil does not exist. Welcome to hell you will be told one day.
Government funding also brought about many diseases like AIDS and cancer. Some types of cancer did not exist before government funded labs to create new viruses and chemicals that would eventually cause cancer. Can you say Monsanto? Hundreds of kids today would not be dead, paralyzed, or autistic if it were not for government funding of dangerous and unnecessayry vaccines. Thank you governement.
The water from my well is not polluted not becuase government says so and government regulations, but becuase the poeple who live in the area were smart enough and had enough common sense not to pollute the water with chemicals. They did not need government to tell them this. it was sort of just a common sense approach to life. Self regulation if you will. Sort of like the founders wished the nation to be.
A benefit is not a necessity. It is a gift. It is optional. get over it. I do not oay the government. They confiscate from me against my will. and , I do not fornicate with lunatics. Try again.
@mandas,
How convenient it is for one to quote from a book in which he doesn't even believ to be true. So I am a little rusty on EXACT verses. Bet you had to look them up as well. What website did you use? How juch is Think Progress paying you to do this?
Ok, to the point and to make it short - The flood of Noah's day was worldwide. The only humans and land animals alive were on that boat. Period. The end. Believe? Don't believe it? Guess what, i could care less. All I ask for you to stop pushin gainst it with crap about monkeys turning into fish and birds turning into spiders and whales evolving into dragonflies and all other such evolution nonsense.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers#/topic/noahs-ark
"How convenient it is for one to quote from a book in which he doesn’t even believ to be true. So I am a little rusty on EXACT verses.
No EAP - you just have no idea what is in the bible. That information is well known to everyone that has read the bible and understood what they read. Why didn't you know it? You believe it, which means you should know what it is in it, otherwise how can you determine whether it is true or not? Believing something to be true, without even knowing what it is, is the mark of a gullible moron.
All I ask for you to stop pushin gainst it with crap about monkeys turning into fish and birds turning into spiders and whales evolving into dragonflies and all other such evolution nonsense.
I can't ever remember saying that monkeys turned into fish and birds or that whales turned into dragonflies. Could you show me where I did please? But then, you have repeatedly said that you accept the facts of evolution. I can even quote you:
"Oh and one more thing. All dogs are derived from a single canine species. Wolves, coyotes, foxes, and pit bulls, germna shepherds, etc. are all related to the single source animals that was created. Insufficient Combatant December 28, 2012
So since you said that you accept evolution, there is one of three possibilities:
1 - You accept evolution as being true.
2 - You lied on the 28 December
3 - You are lying now.
Which is it?
@IC
"Now you talk about physics again. I think you should go back and read Genesis. There are also a great many books dealing with you alleged stars, galaxies, etc problem that you have tried to make up to disprove God’s creation"
Err, IC. Didn't you say you "knew plenty about physics"? Then why do you tell me to look at the Bible for answers? The people who wrote the Bible were a bunch of desert nomads. They didn't even know galaxies existed. We didn't prove their existence until the earlier part of the 20th Century. They do exist, we have magnificent pictures of them, and they are unbelievably far away because their light is shifted so far to the red end of the spectrum. Because they are so far away, we know they must be far far older than the miserable 10,000 or so years that a literal reading of the Bible would allow. That is Physics. Not some fairy tale dreamt up by some nomads sitting around a camp fire.
As a result, we know that "Gods creation" is vastly more beautiful and elegant than those nomads could imagine.
I suggest that not only do you not know "plenty of Physics", but you don't even know about the actual origins of the ancient tome that you put your faith in. For your information, since you plainly do not know, the seven pairs of animals bit was inserted into Genisis by some eagle eyed priest during the Babylonian exile,, because he realised that the silly twit who wrote the first bit hadn't allowed for the sacrifices that Noah would have to make when the flood subsided. Hence, even in those days, people were adding to and probably cutting out from the original text that "God" wrote. It can be proved that this continued to be ongoing throughout the history of the Bible. So how do we know which bits "God" actually wrote?
"I have built road and building."
Yeah, just like you "read the entire bible", yet don't know what's in it.
Bollocks.
"A driveway is a road is it not?"
No.
You can tell because it has a very different name.
"Government funding also brought about many diseases like AIDS and cancer."
Nope, God did that (if he existed).
Government (though it definitely DOES exist) didn't.
But you're a fucking fruitcake, so what the hell.
I think IC, be he a genuine fundamentlist nutcase or just a POE, is useless to argue with. His "reasoning" is so stupid and so far from reality that trying to refute him will actually lead nowhere.
How can one honestly argue with someone who links to "answersingenesis" to support his view? That site is run by the notorious liar Ken Ham, who even according to his "brothers in faith" deliberately misleads people into believing rubbish.
Just to prove what kind of primitve fraudsters most creationists are, one should take a look at websites that reveal all the deceiving practices applied by creationists:
http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/creationist_out_of_context_quotes…
When someone quotes out of context it is absolute proff that they are dishonest, have a weak case and try everything to hide the fact.
Also interesting reading makes the website Lying for Jesus, where more of the dishonest practices of creationists are unmasked:
http://www.proof-of-evolution.com/lying-for-jesus.html
Quote: "Dishonesty in creationist arguments is among the most powerful arguments there is for the accuracy of the theory of evolution."
Six hundred and forty three comments in, and you're just figuring this out?
Well this:
“Government funding also brought about many diseases like AIDS and cancer.”
would be the clincher for clinically insane.
He's only just got COMPLETELY nuts out in the open recently.
You know what I find amusing about Ken?
His schtick about how the banana was made just right to fit in your hand to eat.
Well the penis is JUST the right size to grasp and wank with.
Obviously God wants us to wank ourselves silly!
Isn't this IC to a t:
"Well, you heard the man. It doesn't matter what evidence comes to light, he is sticking with his faith and interpretation of the bible. This kind of blind, violently dedicated faith should scare us. Just what kind of person will not change their minds even when their beliefs are bankrupt and all of the evidence is against them? This type of nonsense reaches millions of children, teenagers, and young adults via AiG and ICR's magazines and websites. One thing is for certain: This is not good."
http://aigbusted.synthasite.com/Baum_Irrational.php
More readable stuff from that site:
http://aigbusted.synthasite.com/Ten_Answers.php
http://aigbusted.synthasite.com/God_Killed_the_Dinosaus.php
http://aigbusted.synthasite.com/Irrational.php
@Wow,
pardon me for correcting you but the "banana man" is Kirk Cameron:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0geHA2yHSZI
Or have I overlooked something?
Oops,
sorry, of course not Cameron but Ray Comfort, although Cameron is another of these nitwits who keep uttering nonsense.
Oh, aye, Ken is the vegetarian T-Rex, isn't he.
@ Dunc
"Six hundred and forty three comments in, and you’re just figuring this out?
No, I figured it out ages ago. I just enjoy poking fun at him.
@wow
"Well the penis is JUST the right size to grasp and wank with.
And it comes with a bulge on the end to stop your hand slipping off!
@EAP
" I do not fornicate with lunatics.
Since only a lunatic would have sex with you, that obviously means you are a virgin.
@ Jan who is scared of Americans who said:
Well, you heard the man. It doesn’t matter what evidence comes to light, he is sticking with his faith and interpretation of the bible. This kind of blind, violently dedicated faith should scare us. Just what kind of person will not change their minds ...
There has been no evidence to come to light that you speak of. So true faith scares you. I assume you love apostates eh? Yes it is our mission and goal that less evolution and global warming propoganda reach children and more traditional Christian faith reach them instead. If America is to survive, the we have to get rid of these left wing ideals. If we cannot do it in the schools, we can do it AFTER school in the privacy of ourhomes and at churches and on private property. We can and will UNteach what the children we subjected to during the course of the week. I do actively participate in handing out free articles and newletters from a number of organizations such as Jerusalem Prayer Team, Family research Council, Answers in Genesis, Apolgetics Press, and a number of others. I post them on my facebook page, email them to youth, hand them out in churches, etc. So what?
@ mandas
I think you are a jealous fornicator.
@ Dunc. Thank you. Finally someone actually gets it. It is futile to argue with me. I will not comply.
@ wow
a driveway is a road. I do not like fruitcake, but you can still have a slice. I am feeling charitable today. If I were felling socialist, I would have confiscated soemone else's fruitcake to share with you. Hope you are getting the difference between willing charity and forced coersion socialism. Yes government does fund labs that created new modoified viruses, so yes government is partly responsible for new diseases and YES God was the creator of the original viruses, but in the beginning man did not et sick. Only after sin, did death become reality. Please read more. Try again.
@debunker
God actually wrote the first written laws - the Ten Commandments. Other writings were not physically written by Him, but by His prophets who were instructed to write down what they heard and saw. If I can be of further assistance, please feel free to call upon my again. Thank you. I'll be here until bedtime which is around 10:00 or so. Sorry I cannot hang around longer. Have to get up early and go to work. it is my duty to go to work so that others may have some of my money.
@mandas
I can’t ever remember saying that monkeys turned into fish and birds or that whales turned into dragonflies. Could you show me where I did please? But then, you have repeatedly said that you accept the facts of evolution. I can even quote you:
“Oh and one more thing. All dogs are derived from a single canine species. Wolves, coyotes, foxes, and pit bulls, germna shepherds, etc. are all related to the single source animals that was created. Insufficient Combatant December 28, 2012
Ok, let's go through this exercise again...
If an original animal - canine, over time changes its appearance, say longer hair or shorter, maybe a different color, chnages sizes, etc. that it NOT evolution. It is speciation. Even if 999 trillion millennia passed the animal would still be a CANINE. nothing at all ahs changed except over time through reproduction each generation lost some DNA information and changd slightly. There is not enough time in eternity for one KIND of animal to change into a different KIND of anima altogether. That is both physically and mathematically impossible.
A whale "evolving" into a dragonfly is an example of the same crazy insane assumption that a 100 foot long 45 ton lizard can over time turn into a palm sized bird. Same principle exactly. If a giant lizard can turn into a bird, then why can a whale not turn into a dragonfly? Why can a human not "evolve"wings and fly instead of using airplanes? Try again, my hairy palmed friend.
@ mandas... I think you are a jealous fornicator.
I am definitely a fornicator.
If an original animal – canine, over time changes its appearance, say longer hair or shorter, maybe a different color, chnages sizes, etc. that it NOT evolution.
ummmmm - yes it is.
"That is both physically and mathematically impossible.
This coming from someone who doesn't understand the concept of Pi.
"A whale “evolving” into a dragonfly is an example of the same crazy insane assumption that a 100 foot long 45 ton lizard can over time turn into a palm sized bird.
Correct - both are crazy, insane assumptions. That is why there isn't a biologist in the world you would claim it. Such assumptions only exist in the mind of the creationist fundie.
If IC is not a poe, he must have been pithed at birth.
But poe or otherwise, he is mentally diseased and should be kept far away from matches, guns, knives, large rocks and keyboards.
mandas, are you nuts?
every scientist on the face of the planet except the real ones claimed that birds evolved from dinosaurs. They even made up a fake crap about some dinoaurs having feathers in order to make their fallacy look legitimate. So what I said about a 100 foot long 45 ton lizard turning into a palm sized bird just becuase of an alleged long period of time elapsed, is true according to your scientists. Now you contradict yourself. Did birds "evolve" from dinosaurs or didn't they? make your your mind. You keep bellyaching about me "not knowing my Bible". So, you must not know yours either. Your Bible is darwin;s book.
Pi is 3.14. Understood. I thought we already covered this meaningless topic.
"I am definitely a fornicator". At least you finally admit sin and evil. A first step in the right direction ...
ummmmmm- no it ain't. It is speciation. no such thing as evolution. Like I said if 999 trillion millenia passes, one particular KIND of animal is not going to turn into a completely different KIND of animal. it cannot happen. In order for that to happen, each generation would need to gain DNA information. Instead, each generation may lose information. it is genetically impossible unless you manually add extra DNA to something, and that's still not evolution. That is crackpot mad scientist gone batcrap crazy. Try again. You still failed.
@Bernard
Yeah I already know about your bun ban schemes and how to cast everyone you dislike as metally defective in order to give more control and power to yourselves. Oldest tyrant dictator trick in the book. Sad that patriots keep letting it happen. Then again, I think we may be pretty close to NOT ever letting it happen again.
mandas, are you nuts?
Only if I think I can persuade you with logic and evidence. But since I don't, I probably aren't.
every scientist on the face of the planet except the real ones claimed that birds evolved from dinosaurs.
No they don't. Some think that dinosaurs evolved into birds, but others don't. There is insufficient evidence to draw a definitive conclusion yet.
So what I said about a 100 foot long 45 ton lizard turning into a palm sized bird just becuase of an alleged long period of time elapsed, is true according to your scientists.
No its not for many reasons.
Firstly, dinosaurs weren't lizards, so that's incorrect.
Second, no-one has ever claimed that huge dinosaurs turned into small birds, but many think that small dinosaurs turned into birds. And yes, there were LOTS of small dinosaurs - and many of them were smaller even than modern birds. All the big dinosaurs became extinct - they didn't 'turn into birds' at all. Did you not listen at all in your science classes?
You keep bellyaching about me “not knowing my Bible”.
You keep proving that over and over. How come you didn't know about the 7 pairs of clean animals on the ark?
Your Bible is darwin;s book.
Scientists don't have bibles. We know that science advances, and it is not stuck in the bronze age like religion. And there isn't a biologist in the world who isn't aware of the limitations in Darwin's work. It was a good start, but, unlike religion, we have learned new things in the last 150 years.
I am definitely a fornicator”. At least you finally admit sin and evil.
I never said anything about fornication being a sin. I just said I was one. Fornication is only a sin if you are a fundie virgin like yourself. And we know you are a virgin since you told us you aren't married. So, either you are virgin or you have sinned (according to your own morals) and are a fornicator. Which is it?
It is speciation. no such thing as evolution
Speciation IS evolution.
one particular KIND of animal is not going to turn into a completely different KIND of animal
Define 'KIND", then we can talk about this, because the word 'KIND" is never used by biologists. And tell us all how to discrimate between different 'KINDS' sso we know what you mean. Not vague generalities, tell us EXACTLY how to discriminate between two different KINDS based on things like morphology, reproduction and genes. In other words, saying 'Its obvious to a five year old" isn't good enough.
In order for that to happen, each generation would need to gain DNA information. Instead, each generation may lose information
Oh oh, looks like my last request was in vain, because you know NOTHING about genetics. That claim was so laughably wrong that I don't even know where to start. Go and read a biology textbook. You really should have paid attention during high school science.
IC, January 16, 2013:
IC, January 15, 2013 (his previous comment):
IC:
Speciation is just evolution that has progressed enough so that populations no longer interbreed.
Check out Helacyton.
'Information' when used in reference to evolution is an invention of creationists that they have never defined. Why do you consider an allopolyploid like Spartina townsendii to have less 'information' than its parent species?
Another sucker has fallen for the fake statistics of Bill Dembski.
IC says,
"I do actively participate in handing out free articles and newletters from a number of organizations such as Jerusalem Prayer Team, Family research Council, Answers in Genesis, Apolgetics Press, and a number of others. I post them on my facebook page, email them to youth, hand them out in churches, etc. So what? "
SO WHAT??? It should be considered a crime to deliberately spread falsehoods, especially to young people, who are still learning about the way the world works.
Any adult with a minimum of intelligence and education and the will to inform themselves can easily see through his web of lies, distortions and prepostrous claims against all evidence, repat: AGAINST ALL EVIDENCE.
And this is what the crimes entails: people like IC lure young people into accepting things that do not have any evidence whatsoever in their favour, thus spoiling their young minds and throwing back their reasoning to bronze . age times. But this is bound to backfire on IC and his ilk. The more intelligent among they young people they are trying to mislead will soon realize what a bunch of stupid frauds IC and his comrades are.
@ Jan
You said " It should be considered a crime to deliberately spread falsehoods, especially to young people, who are still learning about the way the world works. "
I agree jan. That is why I consider it a crime to brainwash youth about man made-up global warming and so called evolution.
@ mandas
Some dinosaurs like the velociraptor were pure old fashioned LIZARDS - no feathers.
Others resemble animals such as hippos, rhinos, elephants, etc. Their feet are the same feet as other plant eating animals like I just mentioned. So are their bodies. However, both rhinos and dino existed at the same time as man and every other creature. Dinos went extint for a variety of reasons - an ice age shortly after th flood killed many. Other were hunted for sport. The rest may have died from starvation due to GASP, climate change. Yes dinosaurs producd alot of fossil fuels back then with their luxury SUVS and coal plants.
"scientists don't have Bibles"
REAL ones do. Only the fakers ignore the creation of God.
Fornication outside of marriage is a sin. If you wish to change that, then I suggest you see a lawyer and formally draw up a legal request and submit it with God who made that law. Nothing i can do about it old buddy. It is a sin, it was a sin and 999 trillion millenia from now it will still be a sin. You cannot change the wrongness of something.
Speciation is NOT evolution. Evolution does not exist. Darwin was an angry old man who used God's creation in order to disprove God's creation. A mute point indeed, but the old hairy turtle herder felt it necessary. more power to him.
Each generation's DNA may change mandas, but it cannot be added to. You cannot add more DNA, you can only change what is already there. Reconfiguration is not the same as adding more.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers#/topic/genetics
Anyone can read one of your biology textbooks. I had Biology in high schools as well as Anatomy & Physiology and did quite well in them. Evolution was barely mentioned because of the uproar the teacher would have had to deal with from parents, so all that was said about evolution was just for us to read the chaper and learn what it says so that when the government test comes at the end of the year we can answer the questions according to what the Biology textbook saya that the answer is. That is EXACTLY what we did. No one there believed evolution, so why bother? Once in college we had this hot shot professor try to talk down to us about evolution ina physcial science survey class. he learned real quick that evolution did not belong in that classroom becuase most of the students there with an exception of a few basically turned on him. As they should have.
Some dinosaurs like the velociraptor were pure old fashioned LIZARDS
Dinosaurs were not lizards. A 'lizard' is a particular sub-order of reptiles, and dinosaurs - none of them - were part of that order.
However, both rhinos and dino existed at the same time as man and every other creature. Dinos went extint for a variety of reasons – an ice age shortly after th flood killed many. Other were hunted for sport
HAAAAHHAAAAAAHAAAAAA HAAA! Oh that's great poe EAP. Much more like your old self. Hilarious!!
Fornication outside of marriage is a sin.
So are you a virgin or a fornicator?
Anyone can read one of your biology textbooks.
Reading is not understanding. If you want discuss any subject, you need to understand what you are talking about. Unfortunately, you want to talk about the bible, but you don't know what's in it. You want to talk about Darwin - but you don't know what's in Origin of Species. You want to talk about biology, but you don't know anything about DNA and genes. You want to talk about the constituion, but you don't know what it says. You say you are a christian, yet you don't follow the teachings of jesus.
Arguing from a position of ignorance is a really stupid thing to do EAP. Seriously, if you want to criticise something, or if you want to tell us how much you accept what something says to be true, you should at least have the first clue about what you are saying, otherwise you just look stupid.
Oh, and how are you going with your definition of 'kind'? What defines a 'kind'? How can we tell the difference between two different 'kinds'?
Insufficient compos mentis sprays:
and repeats:
These claims show how ignorant of genetics IC really is.
1) Genetic content can be increased by the duplication of codons, or of strings of codons.
2) Genetic content can be increased by the duplication of whole gene elements, and by the duplication of non-gene elements.
3) Genetic content can be increased by the duplication of whole chromosomes.
4) Genetic content can be increased by the duplication of whole genomes.
5) Genetic content can be increased by the incorporation of viruses that give rise to endogenous (retro)viral elements, and which may subsequently evolve into functional elements within the host.
IC does not understand biology. IC does not understand ecology or evolution. IC does not understand physics. IC does not even understand theology.
IC is a menace to knowledge and to rational understanding. If IC had been born into Spartan society, he would have been vacuumed out of the gene pool before he had a chance to contaminate it.
Yes Bernard,
Everyone who paid attention during biology class knows that genetic content can be 'added to' by numerous mechanisms. This has been known about for a very long time (before I was born), including horizontal gene transfer (interspecies transfer of genes) which was first described in a paper in 1951:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC386063/?page=1
You can read about it on wilkipedia if you don't have access to paywalled papers, or if you are not so scientifically literate in biology:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_gene_transfer
Perhaps if EAP had listened to his biology teacher, instead of getting his mummy and daddy to threaten the teacher for teaching facts, or for ignoring his community college teacher because he thought he knew better, he might not be so ignorant today.
@ mandas
Jesus CREATED the universe. To adhere to evolution teaching would be anti-Jesus would it not?
Hilarious? Why? Dinsaurs existed alongside man at early creation. If you are to get the Christian religion, then you have to start at the beginning - Genesis. In the beginning there was no death. That included plants and animals. Death and suffering did not appear until AFTER man sinned. So if there was no death and no struggle to survive, then your alleged evolution had no place there. Violent deaths of animals due to hunting each other and man hunting them for food, clothing, and shelter did not occur until much later. So why is it so funny to say that dinos were hunted by man? We have numerous drawings in caves and on rocks all over the world depicting dinosaurs. So, if they were extince "million of years" ago, then how come people drew pictures of them being hunted? Ask St. George about killing the "dragon"(dinosaur). Ask Marco Polo about the Triceratops he saw pulling large wagons in China. His description of three horned brownish enormous animals pulling wagons can only be fit by one animal ...
http://www.gotquestions.org/dinosaurs-Bible.html
the term KIND means exactly what it says. A canine is an animal. A dog and a wolf are the same KIND of animal - canine. A horse and a zebra are the same KIND of animal. A whitetail deer and an antelope may be different in ways, but they are the same KIND of animal.
@ Bernard
Give it up son, you are losing.
Mandas that same professor who you claims is so smart was not so smart after all. He was caught one day after class getting some youth to help jump start his car after he left the lights on and ran down the batter. What an idiot. I doubt if he knew the difference between a spark plug and bumper.
More people in class need to stand up to their professors and demand crap like evolution be restricted to the fairy tale section of the school. My "mummy" never threatened the teacher becuase she didn;t have to. The teach who taught us Biology didn't even beleive in evolution herself. She basically just told us to learn the material that the government provided so that we could pass the government exam. She said we had to learn it, but we didn;t have to agree with it. We need more teachers like that.
And dinosaurs were lizards. many of them were anyway. Velociraptor. Looks like a danged lizard to me. Same skin, same walk, same everything, only bigger. A pygmy elephant is still an elephant. get over it.
wikipedia? seriously? Why not just direct me to the Democratic national Convention website? it would have been easier.
Wrong - they were not lizards and did have feathers.
Every statement in this paragraph is ludicrously wrong.
Why not?
Darwin trained for the clergy and apparently lost his religion with great reluctance, virtually never speaking about his religious beliefs. He was devoted to his wife, who was deeply religious, and a reluctance to upset her was one reason that delayed his publishing. What you write is balderdash.
You seem to be proud of your poor education. It's really not something to boast about.
You didn't follow my comment about Spartina, did you? If you were capable of understanding it, you would know enough to realize that essentially everything in AnswersinGenesis is a lie or a misrepresentation.
From IC's last link:
Er - I wonder if they realize that 'tail' was often used as a euphemism for 'penis'?
To adhere to evolution teaching would be anti-Jesus would it not?
The pope doesn't think so. And since the pope is the head of jesus' own church - the one that jesus told simon peter to found - I guess not.
In the beginning there was no death. That included plants and animals.
Oh really? So what happened to the plants when they were eaten? Did they continue to live inside the intestines of animals? Or didn't the animals have to eat? I guess not, since there was no death. So..... if humans couldn't die, does that mean they didn't have to eat either? If not, why did god tell them to do so?
the term KIND means exactly what it says. A canine is an animal. A dog and a wolf are the same KIND of animal – canine. A horse and a zebra are the same KIND of animal. A whitetail deer and an antelope may be different in ways, but they are the same KIND of animal.
Just saying that a kind is a kind is a kind is not an explanation. I asked you how I can tell the difference between two kinds. And just listing a couple of animals and saying they are the same kind is not an explanation. You need to explain that so I can look at two animals and know if they are the same kind or not. Is it morphology? Is it genetics? What is the difference!!!????? What happens if I look at two animals that I haven't seen before? How do I know if they are the same kind or not? What test should I use?
Mandas that same professor who you claims is so smart was not so smart after all. He was caught one day after class getting some youth to help jump start his car after he left the lights on and ran down the batter. What an idiot. I doubt if he knew the difference between a spark plug and bumper.
So ummmmm, where did I claim your community college professor was smart? I just said he knew more than you about biology. You proved that yourself with your idiotic statements about DNA.
And dinosaurs were lizards. many of them were anyway. Velociraptor. Looks like a danged lizard to me.
You have seen a velociraptor!!?????? And you appear to be saying that the criteria for knowing what 'kind' of animal something is what it 'looks like'. A velociraptor 'looked' like a lizard, therefore it is a lizard. Is that right?
wikipedia? seriously? Why not just direct me to the Democratic national Convention website? it would have been easier.
I wasn't directing you - I know you want to remain ignorant. I was linking for others here who want to learn things. And I am still waiting for an answer to my other question:
Are you a virgin, or are you a fornicator?
This IC idiot keeps making hilarious remarks:
"No one there believed evolution."
He still hasn't realized that evolution is nothing you have to BELIEVE IN. All you have to do is take a careful look at the evidence, then you see that evolution DID take place and is best explained by the THEORY of evolution (Why on Earth do poeple keep confusing the two?). That is what all sane people with a minimum of intelligence and basic education accept.
Ignoring evidence or even refusing just to look at it is insane to the extreme.
"Dinos went extint for a variety of reasons – an ice age shortly after th [sic] flood killed many."
This one is impossible to beat for stupidity, for it reveals IC's utter ignorance about ALL things scientific. According to his ridiculous belief "the flood" happened just over 4000 years ago, yet he claims that there has been an ICE AGE since and for that matter an ice age that was so extensive that it had the capability of killing dinosaurs the world over!
He does not seem to realize that for an ice age to come and go it takes MANY, MANY thousands of years, because it takes TIME to cool the Earth and it takes even more time to build up layers of ice thousands of metres thick over large areas. And it takes at least an equal amount of time for the ice to disappear again. Absolutely insane what IC purports as "fact"!
"She said we had to learn it, but we didn;t have to agree with it. We need more teachers like that."
Yeah, that's him alright. He wants teachers who tell their students just to believe stuff. Never ask any intelligent questions, never doubt if such and such a statement could be true.
Teachers ought to teach critical thinking in the first place, NOT to accept without supporting evidence what they WANT to believe at face value.
It can easily be shown from history that progess was often made ONLY when people stopped to believe that "god did it" and as a consequence found the real cause behind a phenomenon.
If people like IC had their way, science would stop dead in its tracks, there would no longer be any progress. Fortunately in our past many intelligent and inquisitive people were not content to say "god did it" and looked behind the real reason, thus ensuring more and more insight into reality. Just look what happened or rather DID NOT HAPPEN during the Dark Ages. Hardly any progress was possible because people seldom questioned anything and were content to say "god did it", while at the same time perpetrating the most cruel cromes imaginable, because they believed it was the will of their god to fight everything and everyone that might question their silly belief. I shudder to think that people like IC are longing back for such times when he says, "We need more teachers like that." :-(
"We have numerous drawings in caves and on rocks all over the world depicting dinosaurs."
No, we have not.
Maybe he thinks the pictures of birds are pics of dinosaurs that evolved into birds...
"but by His prophets who were instructed to write down what they heard and saw. "
Mohammed, for example...
@IC
"Pi is 3.14. Understood. I thought we already covered this meaningless topic."
Hallelujah! We seem to have some minor agreement here. However, IC fails to realise the whole point of that post. The fact that the Bible maintains the value is 3, when it is plainly not, shows that the people who wrote the Bible were not divinely inspired, because God would not have made such a basic mistake.
That coupled with prophecies which are based on a translation error (Isaiah 7.14), which as a result, cannot be termed prophecies. Plus prophecies by JC himself, which turned out not to have been fulfilled, plus places where humans have plainly added to the divine words of the Bible, (the seven pairs bit), plus a whole load of plainly impossible stuff, such as Jonah spending 3 days inside a Whale and surviving; should all paint a red flag for IC, (as they do for every rational person), that the Bible is not a factual, historical record.
"They even made up a fake crap about some dinoaurs having feathers in order to make their fallacy look legitimate."
Why is that "fake crap"?
@JV,
IC's god must be a real anarchist when you look at the way his "divine book" is cobbled together.
Have a look at this for a convincing argument of why the bible IS NOT a very impressive book:
http://whydoesgodhateamputees.com/bible.htm
@Jan
God hating amputees eh?
Well that is a first. They will not always be amputees. After this earth has been destroyed on purpose and a new Heavne and a New Earth is created we who believe in Jesus will be given eteranl life. no more sickness. No more death. No more suffering. No pain. Each creature will live in harmony with the other. The lion will lie down the lamb and the lamb will not be eaten. The child can pet the T. Rex and not be harmed. Etc. We will be given new, incorruptable bodies. Amputees will get their limbs back. Doesn;t ound like God hates them to me. Giving thos loyal to Him a perfect eternal paradise does not sound hateful to me.
@JV
Scientists have assumed that some lizards like velociraptor had feathers when in fact that did not. Folds in reptile skin under the rapid fossilization and decay process can be frayed and appear as feathers. These scientists who study these things are so caught up in their fallacy and agenda to dethrone God that they lose sight of the real world. FAKE feathers.
@ debunker
3 or 3.14 makes little difference. Builders back then used different technology than we do today. We do not know what type of technology and skills were used ebcuase it was all destroyed in the global FLOOD. However, pi is 3 for short. Howold am I/ Oh, I am 34.3 years old. Why not just say 34?
@JV if you think that we do not have drawings of dinosaurs on rocks and cave walls and building walls, then you need to go hermitize yourself becuase you have become useless. Ever heard of the little country called Iraq? Ever heard of Nebuchanezzar? Oh wait. He was in the Bible. He didn't exist. nevermind your perverse thought process. On the last standing remnant of the Book of Daniel is a drawing of the great dragon (dinosaur) that king Nebuchanezzar had locked up. he fed prisoners to it. That hgate called the gate of Ishtar that the Prophet Daniel was led through centuries ago still stands today. I urge you to contact your muslim brotherhood/hamas/hezbolla/al qeada guys over there to let you go look at it for yourself. and go read a real book. http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=9&article=2416
@ Richard Simons
I do take great pride in not being forced against my will to learn evolution in school. I hope many more have the same freedoms that I had. Velociraptor was a lizard. He had no feathers. Get over it.
@ Jan
forgive me for not endorsing your pathetic "move forward" campaign. usually moving forward indicates a desire to destroy anything that you do not agree with and proceed with sinister agenas to benefit everyone but the people wh thought it up.
More from the "I can't believe how fucking stupid fundies are" department:
"...no theory has successfully unified the laws governing mass (i.e., gravity) with the laws governing light (i.e., electromagnetism), and numerous attempts to derive E=mc² in general from first principles have failed. Political pressure, however, has since made it impossible for anyone pursuing an academic career in science to even question the validity of this nonsensical equation. Simply put, E=mc² is liberal claptrap. Biblical Scientific Foreknowledge predicts that a unified theory of all the laws of physics is impossible, because light and matter were created at different times, in different ways, as described in the Book of Genesis.
http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=E%3Dmc%C2%B2&diff=1029541&…
And still waiting for an answer from EAP.
Define 'kind'. How can I tell whether two animals are the same kind or not?
Are you a virgin or a fornicator?
Oh - I forgot my other question that EAP is avoiding.
If there was "..there was no death. That included plants and animals.." what did the animals eat? Indeed, why did they eat? After all, god told adam that he could eat anything he wanted, except from the tree of knowledge. Why would god tell adam to eat when it would have been completely unnecessary to do so?
And if he did eat, did the plants stay alive in his intestines? What happened to the bacteria in his faeces when he took a shit (or when animals took a shit)? Why wouldn't they have died - and if not, what happened to them?
Scientists have assumed that some lizards like velociraptor had feathers when in fact that did not.
So, let;s just review what we know about velociraptors, since we get all our information from fossils - the same source that EAP has to use (unless he really has see one like he claims).
Large sternum for anchoring pectoral muscles.
Fused, curved wrist bones to allow the arms to fold flat on the side of the body and to make a downwards sweeping stroke
Lightly built skull
Hollow bones.
Nodules identical to feather anchoring points
Endothermic
Large brain case
Lays eggs in a nest that it then broods
So let's use the information that we have - the same informatoin tnat all of us have and it is all we have to go on - and see if we can work out what 'kind' of animal it is. Five minutes to answer..............
You did not read my link, did you? Perhaps you will prefer this one. No, it has nothing to do with frayed folds of skin.
Dinosaurs were not lizards. To quote from a site dedicated to showing that people and dinosaurs lived alongside each other (yes, I know it's rubbish, but less extreme rubbish than you are spouting):
Really? How so? Can you quote anything that I said that is untrue, or that does not prove that you know nothing about genetics? Please. In detail, with particular reference to why my comments are wrong, and why yours are superior.
You are no different to Spangled Drongo over at Deltoid who's demonstrating to the world that he knows nothing of oceanography. You avoid all facts that are laid out in front of you, and you simply claim that your defeater has not defeated you, and you expect that the saying so will make it true.
Guess what numpty. The universe only works like that in your head.
The answer is "because what you said isn't in the bible".
Though even THAT needs the hidden coda "that I agree with and have been told about, 'cos I've not read it myself"
@IC,
Ithought we had sorted out all this crap about PI.
PI is not "3 for short"
Almost nothing that we take for granted including cars aircraft, mobile phones, TV's, GPS etc etc, would work if you used a value of 3 for PI. It is a fundamental constant of the Universe we live in.
That is why getting it wrong, proves that the Bible was not divinely inspired. (amongst all the other contradictions, misinformation and mistakes).
“And he [Hiram] made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one rim to the other it was round all about, and…a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about…"
pi times 10 cubits does not equal 30 cubits, even "for short". If you were using cubit lengths, you'd use 31 rounded down or 32 rounded up.
And if you measured the internal diameter and the external circumference (as I've seen as an explanation) the answer would have been wrong in the opposite direction.
@Richard
Depends on what the measurement of a cubit is.
@ Debunker
Nope. Try again. PI may in fact be 3.14, but you can stil say 3. Try again.
@ bernard
The universe is mysterious and works exactly as God created it to work. if he has the power to speak it into existance in one breath, then i am quite sure He still has control over it and that makes your puny little man made-up stuff just a little bit too insignificant when compared to the power of God. If you have the power to speak a universe into existance and make everything in it work in perfect order and harmony, then I humble myself before you and offer you an apology. If not, then you fail. Try again.
@ Richard Simons
The velociraptor was LIZARD. A cold blooded, reptile. If you shrunk it down to palm size it would be callsified as just a lizard. Get over it. So a few bones are differerent. Bones in a chicekn are different to bone in a buzzard but BOTH are still BIRDS.
@ Mandas
I already answered you three times.
You can see if two animals are the same KIND or not by using your eyeballs and your brain. Look and ye shall see. All you gotto do is use common sense. If you looked at a coyote and then saw a dog, there is no way in hades that you could sit there and tell me using logic and commone sesne that those two animals were the same KIND of animal.
I am a fornicator. A dirty right wing conservative confederate creationist rich white gun owning Bible thumping knife weilding axe throwing fire starting rebel flag waving 4 wheel drive mud riding global warming denying meat eating bigoted homerfobic fornicator and PROUD of it. Now get lost boy. You bug me.
What on Earth are you driving at? Please explain. Surely you can't possibly be as innumerate as this reply suggests.
Even though its bones have features found only in birds? And what do you make of the bird fossils that have been mistaken for dinosaurs?
Earlier you said that zebras and horses are the same 'kind'. Now you are saying that dogs and coyotes are most emphatically not the same kind. To me, horses and zebras are more different than dogs and coyotes. BTW: most creationists insist that not only are dogs and coyotes the same kind, but foxes should be included too.
IC says,
"You can see if two animals are the same KIND or not by using your eyeballs and your brain."
So a whale becomes a fish and a slowworm (Anguis fragilis) a snake. Hilariuous.
@Richard Simons,
IC is at the end of his thether. All he has left to do now is spew out nonsense.
"You can see if two animals are the same KIND or not by using your eyeballs and your brain. Look and ye shall see. All you gotto do is use common sense. If you looked at a coyote and then saw a dog, there is no way in hades that you could sit there and tell me using logic and commone sesne that those two animals were the same KIND of animal.
So let me get this straight. You are saying that the test for determining whether two animals are the same 'kind' is that they look the same? Is that correct?
So I guess then that an antechinus and a mouse are the same kind then? Same with dunnart and shrew? I could provide lots of examples, but those couple will do for now. So please EAP, tell me if they are the same kind or not.
And while you are there, given that they look nothing alike, I guess an echidna and a platypus aren't the same kind either? An echidna must the same kind as a hedgehog, right?
I am a fornicator.
See you in hell bubba!
@IC
"Nope. Try again. PI may in fact be 3.14, but you can stil say 3. Try again"
I can't believe you are as dumb as this! Are we having to argue about the value of PI again? Please go and see your church elders, preferably one with some mathematical competence and have them explain it to you. You cannot replace 3.14 by 3 and have any calculations regarding spheres or circles (used for pretty much all of our modern technology ), and have the calculation come out correctly.
This was what I meant when I said you were bringing a knife to a gunfight. You don't have the education or apparently the intelligence, to argue with anyone on this site.
And by the way, the value of PI doesn't depend on the value of the cubit used. It is unit independent. It is just a number, so how big a cubit is, is irrelevant.
“Nope. Try again. PI may in fact be 3.14, but you can stil say 3. Try again”
And you'd still be wrong saying so.
Try again.
"IC is at the end of his thether. All he has left to do now is spew out nonsense."
IC only had nonsense to begin with.
Of that there is no doubt.
@Wow,
"IC only had nonsense to begin with.
Of that there is no doubt."
Agreed. My phrasing was a bit sloppy, sorry.
What of meant of course, was that his nonsense has become so shrill by now that it can hardly be topped any more.
Correction: "What I meant ..."
@ debunker
No, WE are not arguing the value of Pi again. You are arguing it. Do not say we.
Education is mute and pointless if you are educated in the wrong way. Evolution does not exist, yet you find yourselves infatuated with it. Global warming is a hoax designed to spread wealth and gain more power, yet you keep on preaching it as face and call yuorself educated. Ha.
@ mandas
In hell? I have made arrangements for my escape. It is called repentance and salvation. Then of course if you do not beleive that Jesus ever existed, i cannot be sure that He would aknowledge your existance on Judgement Day either. DSo, I doubt if you will see me in hell. But in case you do, I will make sure to annoy you most excessively in person. Imagine mandas. Would you really want to spend eternity with me pestering you all th time? You fail. Trya again.
@ Richard
yes foxes, wolves, dogs, coyotes, ec. are all the same kind..
You wrote that there is no way you could consider a coyote and a dog to be of the same kind. Did you know that chimpanzees are far closer to us than dogs are to foxes?
Says someone who has not the slightest clue about why scientists anticipated global warming decades before it was measurable. Disagree? Then let's hear your understanding of the reasons scientists give for expecting global climate change.
Still waiting for EAP to dig himself out of the hole he dug for himself:
So I guess then that an antechinus and a mouse are the same kind then? Same with dunnart and shrew? I could provide lots of examples, but those couple will do for now. So please EAP, tell me if they are the same kind or not....
And while you are there, given that they look nothing alike, I guess an echidna and a platypus aren’t the same kind either? An echidna must the same kind as a hedgehog, right?
So come on EAP - you are the one who said that it was obvious which animals are the same kind - all you have to do is use your eyes and common sense. So what about those animals?
And what about snakes and legless lizards? Or pythons and rattlesnakes?
"Did you know that chimpanzees are far closer to us than dogs are to foxes?"
Heck, look at the chimp kids. Very much more humanlike. Just hairer.
I also guess that since an early stage embryo looks like a lizard embryo, that they aren't humans, right?
Chimps do not have kids. Goats have kids.
@wow
Chimps are animals. They possess no soul. Humans do. Some humans claim to be related to chimps. They are often called chumps for beleiving it.
Pythons and rattlesnakes are snakes. Any idiot could look at eithe rone of them an see that they are the same KIND of animal.
@ Richard
what your blessed and all righteous "scientists" dd was to predict what is predictable - NATURAL climate chcange caused by the Sun, the magnetic poles, and numerous other factors EXCEPT human involvement - unless you count Bill Gates's sulfur seeding weather change prgrams or the US Army's weather warfare programs, which by the way China and Russia now are testing in their own countries.
While we dilly dally on natural earth cycles, which prophets of the Bible predicted LONGER ago than your moderns PhD nuts at the UN did, here is a site for you confirming end times natural disasters getting worse and increasing in frequency - just as John fortold. Too bad for you. Try again, though you will fail again.
http://theextinctionprotocol.wordpress.com/
Not at all. Face it - you don't have a clue. You are like a little kid running around with a toy plane and making vrooming noises, insisting that is how real aircraft fly.
”Pythons and rattlesnakes are snakes. Any idiot could look at eithe rone of them an see that they are the same KIND of animal.”
Thanks for that EAP. So let’s just examine all of this shall we.
In the beginning, god created snakes. God gave snakes venom glands which apparently weren’t very useful because there was no sickness and death – even for plants - and all animals were vegetarians. This was slightly confusing, because as well as venom glands and hollow fangs designed to inject poison into the body of an animal, snakes also possessed a digestive system for processing nutrients, a respiratory system for gaseous exchange, and a circulatory system to transport gas and nutrients to parts of the body where they were needed. This is rather curious, since snakes could neither get sick nor die, so they would not have had any use for gas and nutrients. But not to worry, all the plants that the snakes ate just passed through the digestive system unaffected anyway, since those plants couldn’t die either. Apparently the snake ate them, they passed out the snake’s anus unaffected and the plants continued to live.
A couple of thousand years later, the all powerful and all knowing god realized that he had made a huge mistake (another one – he made a lot of them) and decided that humans weren’t living up to his expectations. So in a fit of anger he decided to wipe the lot of them out except for one family. Rather than just clicking his fingers or thinking it so, god decided to wipe out all the animals and plants as well (why isn’t explained) in a huge flood, but he would ensure each species survived by putting a pair of each kind on a big boat. So one pair of snakes turned up and got on the boat. Apparently no fish got on the boat, which is curious since they all would have died when the seawater became fresh from all the additional water. And we know it must have been fresh water, since salt water would have rendered all the land completely incapable of supporting the regrowth of plants for decades after the water receded. Not only that, it would have wiped out all the fresh water aquatic species – so it is a little unclear whether the flood water was fresh or salty. Nevermind, it doesn’t matter. It is only modern humans who wonder about this, the bronze age nomads who wrote about the flood didn’t know enough about biology, so the subject never came up.
After a year or so, the flood waters disappeared and everything, including the snakes, got off the boat. One of the humans immediately killed one of each of several hundred species that he had carefully looked after for the past year, and set them on fire. God thought this was good, since he enjoyed the smell of burning animals.
The other animals dispersed to repopulate their species. God decided for some reason that they were now free to eat each other and not just plants, which must have seemed a relief for animals like snakes, since their digestive systems were appallingly badly designed for the processing of vegetable matter (but since god designed them, it was heresy to question this problem). Their teeth couldn’t pluck of graze plants and their intestines could not process them, so it was good they could now eat meat. There was a downside though. There simply wasn’t any meat for them to eat, since there weren’t that many animals around, and every time a snake (or lion, tiger, wolf, etc) ate one of them they wiped out an entire species.
Fortunately though, snakes somehow survived and the spread out across the world, including crossing oceans to live in places like American and Australia. They would have had to do this when it was hot though, since snakes couldn’t travel in cold weather.
In doing so, these snakes underwent remarkable speciation (not evolution – there is no such thing). Some snakes lost their fangs and developed rows of replaceable teeth. Some snakes developed pelvic girdles that were completely unnecessary since they didn’t have any legs. Some snakes grew huge – over 15 metres long – and moved to live in rivers and swamps. Some lived in the desert and grew rattles on their tails. Some even adapted to live in the ocean, while others lost the ability to see and lived underground.
Even more remarkable, some completely lost their venom glands and had to rely on strangulation to kill their prey, while others changed the type of poison they used to make it more potent against their new food supplies. And all this speciation occurred in the blink of an eye – less than four thousand years – and none of it involved any ‘increase’ in their DNA, since DNA can only degrade over time.
So thanks for all that EAP. I am now much more knowledgeable about how the world works thanks to you and the bible.
Oh, and just to make a slight correction, when I said that the speciation of snakes occured in less that four thousand years what really meant to say was that it took place in a few hundred years, since both constricting and venomous snakes were well known in Egyption and Roman times.
@IC "No, WE are not arguing the value of Pi again. You are arguing it. Do not say we."
IC is contradicting me, there WE are having an argument. (although, it has to be said, it is not much of an argument). IC has the intelligence of a dung beetle, though in a dung beetle's defence, they are at least useful.
I can't imagine what use IC could be put to, except to serve as a warning to kids:
Do your science homework or you will end up like him!
The question is "will these masturbants survive another fifteen years without global warming?"
Evolution and the laws of science
http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=12&article=2786
@ Richard
Man made global warmin g is a hoax. natural cycle climate chnage is very real. The earth is warming. No one is debating that. Howver, man has nothing to do with it. it is natural. The will warm, and eventually it will cool again. God is still on His thron in control of our climate. I assure you that you have little to worry about. Then agian, the Bible does say the earth will burn witha fervent heat and a new one will replace it.
@ mandas
There is a difference between plants dying and plants getting digested. You really do not get it.
Death did not come until AFTER the fall.
oh and if you think I stumped you on evolution and no death before sin, just wait until after Judgement Day when all is eternal - again, there will be no death and just try explaining THIS verse with your man made evolution theories:
On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be any curse. - Revelation 22:2-3
Mandas, how does YOUR idea of evolution explaina tree like that AND how it will feed BILLIONS of followers for all eternity with trillions more coming through the unending ages. I bet darwin is gazing up from hell puzling and puzzling until his puzzler is sore as to how tree like this "evolved" in heaven.
If you use some common sense instead of darwinisting thinking, you can logically follow Genesis. You have to be willing to lay down darwin;s brain and use your own in order to get it.
"There is a difference between plants dying and plants getting digested. You really do not get it."
So explain it to me then. How does something get digested withouth dying?
"Mandas, how does YOUR idea of evolution explaina tree like that AND how it will feed BILLIONS of followers for all eternity with trillions more coming through the unending ages
First of all, I have never published any theories attempting to explain the mechanisms underpinning evolution, so there is no such thing as 'my idea' of evolution. But as far as the published literature on evolution is concerned, it does not attempt to explain any fairy tales, so it is an idiotic question.
"If you use some common sense instead of darwinisting thinking, you can logically follow Genesis.
Such a short sentence, so many mistakes. I never use 'Darwinist thinking' in regard to evolution, because I know far more than Darwin ever did about evolution. Science, unlike religion, has moved on in the last 150 years. But I do admit to using 'Darwinist thinking' in regard to drawing conclusions based on evidence. You should try it some time - having evidence for your views rather than just making shit up is fairly important.
Next, I do understand Genesis, because, unlike you, I have read actually read it. And if you think I don''t understand Genesis and you think there is something wrong with my 'snake' story, how about you explain it to me so I can learn?
And in regard to my snake story, given that there is zero doubt that there are a large number of snake species in the world, including snakes that lay eggs and snakes that give birth to live young, as well as venomous and non-venomous snakes, could you please explain to all of us what mechanism causes this dramatic 'speciation' to occur in just a few hundred years.
There's a good fundy.
"The question is “will these masturbants survive another fifteen years without global warming?”
Yes Paul - that most certainly is a question. I can tell that by the punctuation mark at the end, and the use of the preposition 'will', which is interogative. It's a stupid question, but a question nonetheless.
Here's another question:
How much evidence does it take to convince an ideologically driven denier libertarian that they are speaking out of theiir arse?
Sorry, it's a trick question. Ideologically driven denier libertarians NEVER care about evidence.
The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe. It's even documented. But if that one doesn't suit, there are plenty of other stories, each as worthy as the others of the claim of the One True History:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_myth
Personally, I prefer the route of scientific objectivism for my understanding of the origin of the universe. I left a guileless acceptance of fairy stories behind long before adulthood.
And IC, if you really believe the shit that you dump here, you are deluded in your belief that you would be allowed into heaven. You express no humility, or inclination to help yourself intellectually - both qualities which were demanded for his worshippers by the God synthesised by the Jews. You are violent and inclined to embrace the idea that it is justifiable to kill, when your god expressly stipulates that you turn the other cheek. You are not meek, and it is the meek who are supposed to inherit the Earth.
You are a danger to the security of God's creation, both through your hypocritical, un-Christian politics and your willful ignorance of science - the best tool we have to understand how best to live in/ and with the world: the only world that we have and will ever have.
"Scientists have assumed that some lizards like velociraptor had feathers when in fact that did not."
Ah. They hadn´t feathers because IC says so. Ok, I'm convinced.
And you cambodian dinosaur is a rhinocernos - as you can even SEE.
or hippopotamus
and your dinosaur in the book of Daniel (more exactly in one of the non-canonical books, but that will let your head explode):
"It is a mythological hybrid, a scaly dragon with hind legs like an eagle's talons and feline forelegs. It also has a long neck and tail, a horned head, a snakelike tongue and a crest."
Ok - THAT is a dinosaur. Dinosaurs couldn´t have feathers and such crap - but the features described above? No problem! :-))))))
I doubt IC will understand what the article is about, but nevertheless here is an interesting bit that illustrate how scientists work to determine what path human evolution took in the past:
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/01/17/1221359110
You can also get free access to the full article:
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/01/17/1221359110.full.pdf
and some more for free while others are behind a paywall. :-(
"There is a difference between plants dying and plants getting digested. "
No.
Guys, I think we are being unfair to EAP. He is on to something, and I for one wants to hear his explanation for something so that I can learn.
EAP - you have told us that there were only a few 'kinds' of animals on the ark, and that all modern animal species descended - through speciation - from those original few kinds. But I am a little unclear on something.
We know that there are now millions of divergent species. Some of them, like snakes, have a huge range of characteristics - for example some lay eggs and some don't; some have extra bones that others don't; some have two lungs and others have one; some have venom and fangs and some have rows of teeth. There are others like hedgehogs and echidnas, or dunnarts and mice, that even have different reproductive systems. And we know that all this speciation occured in just a few hundred years, given that we have records describing many of these animals going back to ancient Egypt and other ancient civilisations.
So please EAP - so that we can all benefit from your knowledge - what is it that causes speciation like this to occur so rapidly? And what is the evidence too support your explanation, so that we can check and confirm and pass this on to students.
Thanks.
I wonder if masturbants can define "self immolation"?
just sayin' . . .
Not sure Paul, why don't you ask one?
Hell, why doesn't he ask himself??
@ mandas
Speciation occurs rapidly. Evolution does not exist. The thought behind slow evolution rather than rapid change is absurd. Sure as the amd scientist that you are, you could breed some lab rats and tell me that in just a few generations (100 or less) there are distict differences from the orginals. Observse with your own eyes and explain it yourself.
@ bernard
citiing wikipedia to me is the same as I citing Alex Jones or Glen beck to you. It doesn;t work. Try again.
@ mandas again
show me evidence that the SUN and earth magentic fields are NOT causing climate change and maybe I will believe you. To date man causes quite an insignificant amount of carbon as compared to nature. One volcanoe can spew more carbon in one erutption than mankind has ever dreamed of creating. The plar caps on mars are melting. I guess we better stop those martians from driving their SUVs and eating meat eh?
You do have snake problem though. You spend more time listening to the evil serpent that is on this world, than you do to the truth. That is why you stay confused.
Again, no such thing as man made global warming. Climate chnage is happening, but it is a natural cycle. Nothing man made about it except the men who use it as a tool to gain more wealth and power.
"Speciation occurs rapidly..."
I didn't ask that - you have already said it does. I asked you to tell me HOW it occurs. What mechanism causes it?
show me evidence that the SUN and earth magentic fields are NOT causing climate change and maybe I will believe you
You don't believe in evidence, so why would I bother? How about you show me evidence for your god, and then maybe I might believe you.
"One volcanoe can spew more carbon in one erutption than mankind has ever dreamed of creating.
No it doesn't, and I can show you evidence for this. If I do, will you apologise for your error?
Excuse me?!
All I did was to link to a site that lists some well-known creation myths, in order to point out that there are many fairy stories that seek to explain how the universe came to be. Are you saying that these tales don't exist simply because they're documented in Wikipedia?
Or are you using the bog-standard "if it's in Wikipedia it can't be trusted" gambit to avoid admitting that Christian Creationism is no different to hundreds of other mythologies, and indeed that it draws on other cultural stories for some of its content?
It must be a bloody mess in your head Insufficient compos mentis, trying to avoid admitting to yourself the continuous scroll of mistakes, lies, and misunderstandings that you promulgate. You're a strong argument for chlorinating the gene pool.
@mandas,
if EAP looked into his bible he would also have to claim that Earth is flat and the sun is moving around it.
Furthermore he would have to deny that there is such a thing as mental disorders - people who we think suffer from them are just possessed by demons. How else could Jesus have expelled them from the poor person the bible talks about (e. g. Mark 5:1-20). Mind you, there were eye-witnesses, so how can anyone doubt the truth of the story?
Interesting to note that the many demons went into a herd of pigs who rushed into the lake and drowned - two thousand of them! But no one sued Jesus for the damage he had done. I think killing two thousand pigs in those days was not a minor crime.
On second thought, what was such a huge herd of pigs doing in a part of the world where people did not eat pork?
http://www.jesusandmo.net/
Jan
You are lost. WHERE does the Bible state that the earth is flat? There is one passage about the CIRCLE of the earth giving rise to the fact that prophets hundreds of years BEFORE Jesus came to earth knew that the earth was round. You need help.
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. Isaiah 40:22
Nice to know that Isaiah knew the earth was ROUND 800 years BC.
@ Bernard
You still fail. Wikipedia is a crock. Try again.
@ mandas
NO.
You are avoiding the issue. Are there many creation myths, or are there not?
If there needs to be any proof that the Bible is completely made up fiction, look at IC.
LARPers are thinking "he's a bit odd, isn't he?".
Africans knew it was round about 3200BC.
Indeed any seafaring nation would be able to tell the earth was round.
And round doesn't mean spherical.
The hint is that they use different names. If they'd been the same thing, they would have used the same name.
PS how many corners does a circle have?
Still waiting for an answer from EAP:
What was the cause of the rapid speciation that resulted in a huge number of animal species with divergent characteristics to emerge from a single breeding pair in only a few hundred years?
Magic.
It's the only thing dumb enough for that fundie to understand.
Him and the Taliban, two peas in a pod.
Daniel 4:
10 Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.
11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:
Could someone explain to me how you could see a tall tree from the far side of a spherical globe?
You're arguing with a guy who believes fairy tales are real.
Get a grip.
"BEFORE Jesus came to earth knew that the earth was round. "
I wonder where the bible states that Jesus knew the Earth was "round"? (And as Wow remarked, "round" and "spherical" are not the same.)
Jesus did not know more than about the universe than other people of his time, because he was nothing but a human being, i. e., if the Jesus of the bible existed at all and is not a fictional character comparable to Robin Hood. Jesus was a common name in those days, so they may have been the odd wandering priest called Jesus.
It is perfectly clear - even from just studying the bible - that the miracles he is said to have performed were later additions and thus never occurred - they were only added, because people at that time believed all sorts of nonsense, similar to fundamentalists like IC today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt6VH1mVPAo
Yes, IC does confuse 'Round' with spherical. The devil, of course, tempted Jesus when he was in the wilderness by showing him the entire Earth spread out below the mountain top. This would have presupposed an Earth shaped like a dinner plate, which is round but not spherical.
It is a horrifying statistic that 40% of Americans believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. Nearly half of the population of the greatest Military and Nuclear power, believe absolutely in myths and fairy tails! That is why, even if they accept Global Warming, which most don't; they couldn't care less about it because "God will sort it out". It will just bring the day of judgement that bit closer, and they will be all right, (they smugly tell themselves).
The sad thing is, that they believe absolutely, in this God, no room for a shadow of a doubt; whereas I, whilst I don't believe in God, do entertain the possibility of his (however unlikely) existence, which means, I am open to changing my mind if provided with objective proof. If I am wrong, no big deal, but if they are wrong, and succeed in delaying action to curb Global Warming(probably too late already), then they condemn the whole of humanity to deal with the hellish conditions which will almost certainly come. They will find that God won't be there for them, as he wasn't there for the Jews in WW2. It took the combined might of the Western Forces to free them from to the concentration camps. I didn't notice God in much evidence there.
It would be interesting to see how much IC believes in the return of Jesus. If we are so near the "end times" as he says, is he willing to bet, say 10,000 dollars that it will happen before 2020, for example?
I would gladly take that bet! Christians have been waiting for 2000 years, based on Christ clearly telling them that he would return within the lifetimes of some of his disciples. What a cruel joke to play on your believers! And 40% of Americans still believe it! 2000 years later! Madness!
I wonder how many of those are saying they believe a literal interpretation SOLELY to make people like IC shut the fuck up and stop bleating at them?
Because you know the only way to get that ignorant bastard to shut up and piss off is to agree with him entirely.
@>Debunker,
"And 40% of Americans still believe it! 2000 years later! Madness!"
Yes, very much so. And these people get brainwashed by their parents and priests from early childhood. No wonder they are unable to accept reality and stick fast to their insane world view..
@Jan
That means 60 percent of Americans have been duped by satanic ideals like evolution? I guess so. So sad to see America on the decline. Thank you 1960s sin revolution people.
@ Wow
It is a horrifying fact that 60% of Americans do not believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible and that Adam was the first man CREATED, not evolved by God. Sad.
@ Debunker
Yes. I am 100 percent certain that Jesus will return, but I will not bet on when becuase that is a bet well lost since no one knows when the return will be. His own angels do not even know the time. Only He knows. The end times are here. God's people have returned to their homeland of Israel. An Islamic anti-christ is about to rise. After the rapture, YOU will be his slaves.
@ Jan
Of course jesus knew the earth was round. Why would He not? He created it.
@ bernard
yes there are many creation myths. evolution is one of them. The difference that seperates others' myths from Bible fact is that Jesus, who CREATED the universe was actually physically her for people to witness. He was cricified and rose from the dead. Now, if your other creation myths can be backed up by their Creator actually dying for the people they created and rising from the dead and aclaiming all authority over the entire universe in person, then I will believe them. Until then, they are myths.
"Now, if your other creation myths can be backed up by their Creator actually dying for the people they created and rising from the dead and aclaiming all authority over the entire universe in person, then I will believe them. Until then, they are myths."
And why is it the Resurrection that makes the biblical myth real? Other creation myths have other magical beliefs.
@JV
IC says, "no one knows when the return will be"
Obviously not even Jesus knew, because he believed it would be soon after his death. So he not only fooled his disciples, he actually (i. e., IF the whole story ist true and chances for THAT are extremely slim) FOOLED HIMSELF!
So much for the "creator of the universe."
It cannot be denied that religion has been made solely for the foolish and the gullible. No wonder Jesus permanently appeals to uncritical thinking (if you can call that "thinking" what believers are doing):
cf. Matthew 8:26 and many, many other passages: "you of little faith"
Of course, to accept all that nonsense that the bible teaches, you must have faith, faith and faith and never doubt anything that you are told, however absurd and in contrast to reality and logical thining it may be.
"And why is it the Resurrection that makes the biblical myth real?"
Hell, you have to prove the resurrection first.
All the time IC talks about Jesus as the creator of the universe. So if Jesus = God, then all the talking about dying is no big deal. How can an immortal god die?
And if he did, wouldn't that be suicide?
And isn't that one of the BIG sins?
@JV,
I'm afraid there is no conceivable answer to your question. The concept of trinity is hilariously insane:
One god in three entities, but nevertheless they are (or must it rather be: "it is") still one thing!
However, I think this is a clever PR gag, for whoever is prepared to swallow that nonsense is also prepared for any other BS that this religion has to offer. No wonder they are on the lookout for the gullible.
...anything else the priest wants them to swallow...
Note here that "priest" also includes those faith healers and other ministers who have been caught out in flagrante with boys, girls or other animals...
Dear fellow unbelievers, darwin slurpers, earth worshippers, sinfilled fornication addicts, and whiny left wing tyrants who hate America, the Bible, and anyone who isn't a marxist, an atheist, a global warming fruitcake, homofascist, or other made up new class,
I come to realize that it is now impossible to try and argue the point of FAITH with you and that you will NEVER get the concept of FAITH. No matter what you say, you do indeed have a God. That God is your accalimed science and all of its human errors. My God created the things you study, but you would rather worship the created objects rather than the entity who spoke them into existance.
That's ok. You go right ahead with that. Let me know how it all works out on Judgement Day when you have to explain it.
Now get this:
There is no made made global warming. You have been duped. It is a marxist hoax designed for money redistribution and power grabs. nothing less. Everyone involved eventually in this life or after Judgement Day will be punished for this crime. There is no evolution. Satan loves to spread lies about God and evolution is just what Dr. Satan ordered. it is believable just enough to gain the attention of whiny insignificant hairy old men who are angry at that same God whom satan says does n ot exist. Go ahead and beleive in your failed evolution crock. Half the country just laughs at your ideas anyway.
With this say, I leave your in peices and hope that youy tiny fluoride overdosed inferior minds that has been damaged by eons of left wing evil madness does not implode.
Peace out. oh, and one more thing. Confiscation usually causes revolution, Just remember that. So wether you try to confiscate one's money, guns, gold, God, or anything else, just remember that many will defend what others come to steal.
We accept your capitulation.
Richard Dawkins explains to his ten-year-old daughter, why evidence is so important and should always be given preference to tradition, authority and above all "revelation":
http://goo.gl/PD87c
Lots of interesting postings about some of the things we have been discussing here and a host of links to even more interesting sites.
Can the internet kill religion? This topic is discussed here:
http://www.richarddawkins.net/news_articles/2013/1/16/-religion-may-not…
And finally one of many good quotes by Neil deGrass Tyson:
“... there is no shame in not knowing. The problem arises when irrational thought and attendant behavior fill the vacuum left by ignorance.”
Irrational thought? I wonder if Neil knew about IC when he coined this quote. :-)
More from Neil:
http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/12855.Neil_deGrasse_Tyson
Can it be that IC has left the building?
However, with his final ramblings he has demonstrated yet again, that he knows nothing about the history of the very book that he puts all his faith in.
Prior to the Jewish exile, the Jews believed the dead went to a place they called Sheol. Good or bad, you went to the same place, somewhere underground. It was in Babylon that they picked up the teachings of Zoroaster:
"Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam; yet it is in Zoroastrianism itself that they have their fullest logical coherence ..." (Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians, pg 29):
So, a large part of what IC believes (certainly the important bits), does not come from the divine inspiration of God, but from a pagan religion! Imagine that, IC a pagan! Even if we hear from him again, I doubt he will be able to explain that away, (even to his own admittedly low standards of evidence).
So shoot first, then, you recommend?
Fair enough.
I'll remember not to bother asking for your gold, guns and god, I'll just shoot you all down dead first.
@ wow
shoot me down with what? You are an advocate of gun bans are you not? Oh, nevermind. I fogot. liberals who advocate bans on anything always exempt theselves from it first. Feinstein is exempt from her own illegal gun ban bill. Convenient. Sort of like what Castro would do.
@ debunker
if you worship monkey to many evolution and your worship fairies that sprinkle carbon dust and allegedly warm the earth with it, then my hairy palmed friend, it is YOU who are the pagan.
@JV
acceptance denied.
Still waiting for a response from EAP:
What was the cause of the rapid speciation that resulted in a huge number of animal species with divergent characteristics to emerge from a single breeding pair in only a few hundred years?
" come to realize that it is now impossible to try and argue the point of FAITH with you and that you will NEVER get the concept of FAITH.
That' right EAP. None of us 'get' the concept of faith. We 'get' the concept of evidence. We will leave it up to morons like you who would rather 'believe' in something which is contrary to the evidence.
"@ wow
shoot me down with what?"
My gun.
You're an advocate of gun ownership, so you won't mind me owning one, will you.
@ IC
You really need to read more and get out a bit. Even Exxon CEO Rex Tillerson has accepted the reality of Global Warming, though (laughably), he thinks we can adapt.
http://eenews.net/public/energywire/2012/06/28/4
Exxon has been the main funder of Climate Skepticism, and the reason you believe it is all a hoax, is that you have been reading the writings of those he funded. If he has thrown in the towel then maybe it's time for you to face reality.
As for being Pagan, yet again you are showing that you know nothing about the history of your sacred book. There were NO references to Heaven or Hell, Judgement Day or Resurrection in early Jewish thought, until the exiles returned from Babylon.
It has been proved conclusively that they picked up these ideas from the Persians. The Christians then, uncritically, picked them up from the Jews and applied them to their own prophet JC.
This does not appear to have been part of God's master plan from the beginning. Why does God keep changing his mind? Mainly because it is men, not God, who wrote the Bible, sadly, without divine inspiration and with no knowledge of science. So you are indeed, a Pagan.
@wow
I do not mind you owning a gun. It is your right to do so. Just so that you know whihc end the bullets come out of. Oh, and I forbid you to own one of those evil black polymer rifles that shoots more than seven times in a row. I believe the DHS just purchased 7,000 of them. Funny thing is this. As long as the government wants to ban them for US, they are called "assault rifles". BUT, as log as DHS agents can own them, they have to be called "personal defense rifles". So, I guess it matters wether you are a redcoat or a peasant as to what the name of the rifle is. Gun control has never been about guns. It has always been about CONTROL. You fit right in.
@ debunker
I never realized God was a persian. Was not the flood in Noah's time a JUDGEMENT day? Not the one referred to in Revelation, but another type. God will never again destroy the entire earth with a global flood again. next time it will be by fire. Jesus was not a prophet. He was the Son of God who fulfilled numeorus prophecies including His death, burial, and ressurection. Sad that when the times comes that you believe, it will be too late to accept your apology.
And we are still waiting for a response from EAP:
What was the cause of the rapid speciation that resulted in a huge number of animal species with divergent characteristics to emerge from a single breeding pair in only a few hundred years?
This is the logical fallacy of circular reasoning:
You imbue the Christian myth with supernatural power, and then accept its mythology because it is imbued with perceived power. There is no a priori difference between the Christian Bible, and the stories written on the scrolls of other religions, or on the walls of tombs or caves, or told by priests around campfires in forests and on plains or in tents or temples or churches around the world.
Your "faith" is substantively no different to the faith of a Hindu, or a Muslim, or any of those countless other cultural "Just So" stories. The only difference is that your faith of choice (or rather, of indoctrination) is the Christian one... and that it is held within a culture that has the least excuse to cling to it, given its capacity in objective knowledge development.
And then there's this spectacularly ironic display of cogintive scotoma:
Not quite.
We understand the concept of faith (I was subjected myself to a childhood of attempted indoctrination), but we also understand that the Christian admonition to "have faith" is a tactic to prevent logic from over-riding the illogical, and the unevidenced, and the outright contradicted-by-fact. It's a sheet of rice-paper to hide the gaping hole in the wall. It's the motivation for the Doublethink that is required to internalise without cognitive dissonance the mutually-contradictory nonsenses that fundamentalism requires of its devotees.
Remember those contradictions? They're here, if you need your memory jogged:
http://scienceblogs.com/illconsidered/2012/10/supply-side-creationism/#…
Again, an example of you taking something completely on faith, and not understanding that the reality is completely the opposite. You obviously do not know any scientists, or anyone remotely involved in the operation of science, or you'd know that no such conspiracy exists. Of course, your answer will be that the worlds scientists are perpetrating this scam without knowing that they're being manipulated to perpetrate it. This begs the question of how the experimental and empirical data mange to magically cooperate with the invisible conspiracy, and staunchly refuse to support the denialist "truth" that you imagine exists.
Half the country is also of below average intelligence, and it's likely that this half is also the half that you claim is laughing at science, because there is a strong correlation between intelligence and religiosity.
Hell, if there's a scam being done, then at least "God" knows about it and he's doing fuck all.
Maybe he wants people to know about global warming.
"I do not mind you owning a gun. It is your right to do so. Just so that you know whihc end the bullets come out of."
Well, given I use my brain and can reason that the hole in the front is the only place a bullet can come out, this is a pretty simple thing to ensure.
So when I come to take your gold, money, guns and dog from you, I'll just shoot you dead first, because you're a dangerous religious fanatic like those Taliban and Iranian Mullahs.
@Wow,
even if you don't mean it seriously, I DO NOT condone you threatening anyone to kill them!
If you are a man of reason then you are also an ardent opponent to capital punishment. No person has the right to kill another unless in self defence or in order to save the lives of innocent people when they are being threatened.
As it is, IC is not even fully responsible for the nonsense he touts. He was brainwashed into believing trash as a child and since he lacks intelligence and the ability to think rationally, he has no way of realizing his error.
Of course, you - and anyone else for that matter - have got the right to ridicule him, but you - nor anyone else - should physically threaten him, be it in earnest or not.
We re not those primitive people who revert to violence when they have run out of arguments, for we have not. Our case is as sound as it was from the beginning, nothing that IC has posted here was able to sow the slighest doubt on anything we are convinced of. Reason is on our side and a childish, even insane belief on IC's side, so there is no causen for us to lose our temper.
Some good ones found at
http://www.freethoughtpedia.com
If you value faith over science
next time you get sick ...
Go to Church
If God is the answer ...
you're asking the wrong question.
FREEDOM
is the distance between
CHURCH and STATE
SCIENCE > Superstition but to my mind it should be
SCIENCE >>> Superstition
"even if you don’t mean it seriously, I DO NOT condone you threatening anyone to kill them!"
That's OK, you don't have to condone it.
The rednecks have this "Lethal Weapon" fantasy going on.
Ever seen Get Shorty? Where Barboni says to the Hollywood tough "you must be one of those fast draw artists."
Well these redneck idiots think they are the same indestructible god merely because they have a gun and love it like a mother.
Problem is, people they are afraid of are armed by the same idiot phrases they spout.
@IC
I never said God was a Persian. Did you fail written comprehension at school as well? What I said was that the ideas of judgement day, heaven and hell and resurrection came from Persian sources which the Jews picked up in Babylon. As for the Flood being judgement day, you are just making shit up again. That was never the final judgement as Christians understand it. What the Jews picked up from the Persians was a final judgement at the end of time, (so the flood, which by the way, comes from the Epic of Gilgamesh; does not qualify). So yes, Christianity is full of Pagan thought.
The problem is, you picked all this stuff up at your mother's knee, when you were much too young to make any rational judgements. (You ain't so hot at that at the moment either, I might add). You accepted it as all true because you trusted your parents, and never queried it again when you grew up. Young birds imprint on the first thing they see when they open their eyes, even if it happens to be a human, they think it's mum. That's what happened in your case. You accepted this stuff without any concious thought process and now you are stuck with it.
That's why the Catholic church insists on educating the kids in a mixed faith marriage, because they know if they get the kids early enough, they will get them for life. It takes great fortitude and independent thought to resist this sort of conditioning, which of course, you don't have. You have trouble understanding the concept of decimal fractions for pity's sake.....
Jan,
We re not those primitive people who revert to violence when they have run out of arguments, for we have not.
Were that it was so. Unfortunately you are being a little naive here. The threat of violence is a common concept which is used by nations all the time against other nations and non state actors. Indeed, the very reason that nations maintain militaries- and the US has by far the largest in the word - is to enable them to use force when rational argument has failed.
Sometimes you just have to accept the fact that no rational argument will ever work. And when the other person, organisation or nation becomes a threat to your safety and way of life - you use violence as a means to create the conditions where you can negotiate an outcome which is favorable to your objectives.
Fundiies are a threat to the long term survival of humanity. Education is only partly working - but in cases like EAP you can see it has failed. And besides, people like EAP should welcome death for themselves and their families. Indeed, they should be overjoyed to see their children murdered in front of them, because they believe the children will be going to a better place. And if they wouldn't be happy to see that occur, then they aren't very strong in their faith are they?
debunker
sure you use the age old argument that lefties like to use about Gilgamesh, but fail to reason that the story of Gilgamesh happened AFTER the flood of Noah.
What happened to Sodom and Gomorrah was a Judgement from God and what happened to all of humanity in Noah's day was a Judegment from God.
You are mistaken. The judgement day - the final one, was taken directly. Read the Book of Revelation. It was given unto John to write these things down, so this was NOT taken from anything pagan. Try again. You fail.
@ Jan
If you value science over faith
next time you get sick …
Go watch a monkey evolve into a man.
If al gore is the answer …
you’re asking the wrong question.
FREEDOM
is the distance betweenLiberalism and the real world.
SCIENCE > The accumulation of knowledge discovered by God fearing men and turning into atheist crud in order to subvvert power back to man. A failed attempt at a stupid idea.
Still waiting for a response from EAP:
What was the cause of the rapid speciation that resulted in a huge number of animal species with divergent characteristics to emerge from a single breeding pair in only a few hundred years?
IC is definitive proof that even with an army of straw men he and his grassy soldiers have not a brain between them.
This is what happens when 'Mother Nature' is not permitted to chlorinate the gene pool.
"FREEDOM"
Am I free to take your money, gold (lol!), guns and dog away from you?
THEN I'M NOT FREE!!!!
lol to gold? Are you crazy? It is very valueable right now. Even your precious king of the leftists george soros owns a few tons of gold. It is a wise investment. You are a nut. Too bad the US is still not on the gold standard. More and more countries are hoarding gold - Russia, China, Germany, etc. They know that America's debt crisis and free stuff entitlements will eventually crash our system.
As we speak high capacity magazines and ammo has a value increase as well. Wish i had bought stock in these companies before obumma took over. Better yet, wish I had stockpiled alot of things. A box of 380ACP defense (not taget) bullets ten years ago was about $12 per box of 20 rounds. Now the priced jumped to $30 per 20 rounds and climbing. Some 45 auto I have seen was as much as $50 per box of 25. and magazines - a year ago a common Glock 45 auto mag costs around $25 per magazine. Now since the lords of the light in washington plan to derail our freedoms, everyone has bought out the warehouses and new magazines that will not be coming off backorder for TWO YEARS will be about $80 per magazine. That's right YEARS. I wanted to purchase a new Ruger 1911 and no store or warehouse has one avaiable. Ruger has over 2 million orders to fill. I was told to put my name on the two year waiting list. Thanks for screwing us over. You did it with education, food, oil, medicien, and now firearms. Thanks for ruining a once great country.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Redneck fundies with guns!!! A self correcting anomaly in the gene pool.
Speaking of gene pools, how are you going with my question on speciation EAP?
@Mandas
IC will never be able to answer your speciation question, because it is impossible. He would have to postulate a second miraculous creation after the flood, an event which plainly does not appear in the Bible. The animals just walk off to grow up on their own without parental guidance, LOL! (coz they have to be babies to fit on the ark)...
Another question he totally failed to answer was why did JC's prophecy of coming back within his followers lifetimes, fail to work out. He still hasn't come back after nearly 2000 years! IC's answer to that was perhaps one of his most hilarious posts ever. Err some of the ancients lived to 900 years, so one of them may still be alive. After all, not much difference between 900 and another 1100 years right?
One wonders why this guy hasn't sold his story on Oprah Winfrey yet...
IC gets his answers from "answersingenesis", and they sidestep all the tough questions, so he is reduced to having to make shit up.
Debunker,
Yeah, I know EAP can't adequately answer my question on speciation, but it wasn't really my intent to get him to answer.
It is a common tactic of people like EAP - the gish gallop. We used to have another regular here by the name of crakar. They just bring up nonsensical crap all the time, and as soon as you answer them they fail to acknowledge your response and move on to another piece of crap, only to return to the original crap at a later time.
The only way to deal with them is not to play their stupid game, and to keep focussing on the original point. If nothing else, it exposes their hypocrisy.
Creationists are losing left, right and centre:
http://www.repealcreationism.com/endorsements/
"lol to gold? Are you crazy? It is very valueable right now."
It's a useless soft heavy metal.
Apples will get you through times of no gold better than gold will get you through times of no apples.
But you're a lunatic, so why the heck should you let reality impinge, huh?
Another Fun Flood Fact that should do IC's head in, is the question of where the water for the Biblical flood came from. As everybody knows, the Bible states that all the earth was covered with water, even the highest mountains were covered by fifteen cubits (about twenty-two feet) of water during the flood (Genesis 7:19-20). Now, lets consider for a minute. Mount Everest is over 5 miles high. Hence we are talking about a Global Ocean over the top of the existing ocean 5 MILES high!
Where did that water come from? Even Ken Ham admits that if all the water vapour in the atmosphere condensed out, it would only amount to a few inches of water over the entire globe. His solution is the "Fountains of the deep". Wow! Of course! Why didn't we think of that?
http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/audio/answers-daily/volume-076/fl…
Not withstanding that we have never found any evidence of this much water existing underground, and we have pretty well covered the entire Earth drilling for oil, well down to several miles in depth. The entire average depth of our existing oceans is only a couple of miles deep. We are talking 2 and a half times that much EXTRA volume. This is just a ludicrous amount of water.
Added to that, a simple calculation shows that, in order to pour that much water out of the sky in 40 days and nights would require a rate of six inches A MINUTE! A category 5 hurricane can only muster 6 inches per HOUR, so we are talking some very wild weather indeed. SIXTY times as wild, in fact.
All this is supposed to be weathered by a homebuilt boat made of wood, whose size as stated in the Bible, already exceeds the maximum size of a viable wooden boat by about 50% (according to engineers).
We know IC is not hot on maths, but perhaps these elementary calculations will show him what a crock this whole Biblical flood thing is! (apart from all the other impossibilities it dredges up which he has so far, been unable to answer.)
And what is it with you gun nuts?
Learn how to AIM.
It means you don't need anywhere near as many bullets.
One is enough.
what is a gun nut? What kind of tree does that grow on?
Aim? it is hard to aim and shoot MULTIPLE MOVING targets at once with only one bullet. Most civilians are not trained snipers. besides if you have three criminals breaking into your home and you only have one bullet, you better have an axe handy to take on the other two thugs. Maybe all cops should only carry one bullet. Seems like these days they have the ole Barney Fife mentality, so give em one bullet.
@ debunker
Read on my son. It says that the water came from TWO sources - below the earth and from above. One giant continent splitting up and the oceans purin in along with the vast under groud water sources would have made a heck of a flood and created mountain ranges. Try again.
@ wow (again)
gold is a soft metal, but it is very vauble. Where have you been lately. 20 years ago If I had bought gold at $300 per ounce I could have sold it at over $1500 now. That's a good investment. Apples will ruin. Gold will never tarnish. Even the street of Heaven are paved with gold.
@ Jan
we are losing temporarily, but when Christ comes back and sets up His kingdom, we will not be losing.
@ mandas
This nation won its independence becuase of "redneck fundies". They fought off the redcoat tyrants did they not? Try again.
How are you going with my question on speciation EAP?
"...but when Christ comes back..."
It can't 'comeback. if it was never here in the first place. Try again.
" says that the water came from TWO sources – below the earth and from above. "
A couple of points. There is no "below" the earth - unless of course you accept the biblical crap about a flat earth with a dome of sky above it. And second, was it fresh or salt water?
maybe it's flat but in a spherical way...!
"gold is a soft metal, but it is very vauble."
Nope, it's a pointless metal.
It only has value if you value it.
Fool.
"we are losing temporarily"
In the same sense as the solar system is temporary...
"what is a gun nut"
You are.
"What kind of tree does that grow on? "
No, they fall out of trees. Hence the brain damage. They aren't the smartest monkeys in the world...
"Aim? it is hard to aim and shoot MULTIPLE MOVING targets at once with only one bullet."
So you get attacked by only groups of many many people,all of whom are so insistent on stealing your wallet that they are willing to die for it????
"Paranoid delusion" mean anything to you?
" if you have three criminals breaking into your home and you only have one bullet"
Burglers leave an occupied house.
Burglary gets 10 years tops.
Killing someone 25 years.
Do the maths.
Oh, sorry, forgot: you don't know how. Killing someone is a bigger penalty for no greater reward, and the police are more likely to catch you.
Add that one of you could die if the owner has a gun with a single shot in it, and a PS3 isn't worth dying for, so they leave.
Also, do you sleep with the loaded gun under your pillow like Sledge Hammer? Because otherwise, when someone breaks in and sees you, your gun, safely secured and unloaded as per requirements, required for owning a license to have a firearm (and you aren't a LAWBREAKER are you?), you're going to have to have a very accommodating burglar who will wait while you get dressed.
And seven bullets for three people is still far more than you need.
Unless, as I suspect, you're a crap shot.
"Maybe all cops should only carry one bullet."
they don't get 9-rounde berettas for home use. Only for work.
So, yes, if the law required home guns one shot only, they'd have one shot only.
But work is not home.
"That’s a good investment."
Only if you'd sold it.
@IC
You need to actually listen to what Ken ham was saying. He admits all the water vapour in the air would only amount to a few inches of surface water. Hence most of the water would have to come from underground. We are talking more than 5 MILES high of water! There is no way that such an amount would have remained undiscovered underground by geologists.
Also, Ken admits that the water would most likely be in the form of steam, because it would be so deep. Can you imagine the heat content of that much water emitted as steam? Talk about global warming! Every man and animal would literally be scalded.
This is why being a Biblical Creationist is like having a large sign around your neck saying "Moron". You have to believe in stuff that is literally too stupid for words.
"Even the street of Heaven are paved with gold."
Streets? Gold? Funny, that heaven is so - hm, don´t know - it looks like imagined by humans. How could that be?.... ;)
PS:
Why must the flood-story in the bible be taken literally? Jesus used parables, right? Why shouldn´t God do so, too?
"Even the street of Heaven are paved with gold.
Must be a bitch to walk on.
What I want to know is how this fact has been established.
Heaven hasn't been seen through any telescope yet, and humans have looked far away both in space and back in time. There seems to be no reliable documentation of this auric pavement - and no, a lurid hallucination from an anonymous island-dweller doesn't count.
And why gold? If it's so common in Heaven the novelty of it will be absent, and it would be simply uncomfortable on which to walk. Why not velvet? After all, there is no rot in Heaven (apparently) so why not make the roads comfy to walk on?
Or does Heaven have cars? Gold might be slippery for braking, but then, there are apparently no accidents in Heaven, so maybe slippery gold doesn't exist... And if there are cars, why didn't the Bible mention them when referring to the sparkly roads?
Speaking of hard surfaces, what happens if one falls on a gold road? Does one suffer a bump, or a bruise, or a concussion? If not, is it because the laws of physics are selectively suspended, or are the residents all Superpersons?
And what of the twelve gates that go with the streets of gold? Each is "made from a single pearl", which would mean that the oysters that grew them would be the size of a supermarket. Where exactly is the sea that harbours such giant oysters, and what is the source of plankton that feeds them? How do they exchange oxygen with their marine environment, and how big are the avian oyster catchers that eat them? Or are there no oyster catchers in Heaven? And how did the human oyster catchers find and land these massive oysters? Did they use explosives to get in, or did God just magic the pearls out of the oysters? But why did the oysters have pearls in the first place - pearls are a response to irritation, and Heaven is supposed to be free of pain and discomfort.
Please answer. Many people want to know.
@ Bernard J
I do not know why heavenly streets are paved with gold or why the gates are adorned with precious stones - emrald, jade, ruby, etc. What does it matter?
Some say Gold has spiritual properties and stones have always been accused of having sacred healing properties. Perhaps this part of the eternal life mystery. I do not have the answers, but do not really care why it is what it is, as long as I am present there instead of hell and torment.
The size of heaven ( the city itself) is 1000 miles square. No mention of the size outside the city. Guess I will just have to wait and see.
Cars in heaven. I hope so. I would love a ginat jacked up Hummer with big beefy mud grip tires. But if not I will take a UFO style spaceship instead. Are you silly? Angels need not cars and I have never heard of an angel or demon having a concussion or a bruise. Yet we will be like them.
You overthink this whole thing a bit much.
@ mandas
why? Gold is softer than asphalt and blunt rocks. Would you rather walk on gold or rough rocks?
@ wow
9 round Berettas? Are you stuck in 1985? The Marines adopted the 15 round Beretta back in 1985 to replace the Colt 1911 45 ACP. Now they are getting rid of their toy berretas and going back to a man's gun - the Colt 45 1911. Police have generally been carrying Glock, Sig, and Walther with standard 12 to 19 round clip capacity since the early 1980s with the exception of some departments that stuck with 38 special and 357 magnum revolvers in smaller towns and rural areas. And what Beretta uses a 9 round clip? No such thing. The stndard at one time was 10 rounds and now they hold 15 and can fit 17 with an extension. Learn your guns before speaking. and learn some firearm history too. A pop quiz question for you: What was the last crime wherea 50BMG rifle was used to rob or kill someone? I bet you can;t tell me. If you can, I will be surprised.
Also, seven bullets is NOT enough. Some brain dead drug addicts have to be shot more than 20 times before they fall and stop attacking. I personally know a cop whose partner was stabbed by a cocaine addict. The thug stabbed the cop in the shoulder AFTER the cop put four rounds at point blank range in his chest. The criminal fell, got back up and took five more rounds to the back. Got bak up again and took off running with blood squirting everywhere and met another cop who plugged him twice with 12 guage buckshot and then more offciers fired at him and one finally shot the guy in the head with a Glock 45 and killed him. When it was all over with the guy had taken 32 bullets and was still managing to get up and go. The 33rd one - the one in the head got him. So, in a situation where you have some brain dead druggie on top of you, if you gun has seven shots you better aim for a head shot of shove that gun in his chest and hope you hit the heart and point blank range becuase seven bullets in the situation will get you killed. I suggest you read up on criminals taking more than 20 shots to take down before you advocate to someone else how many bullets they should have. You liberals have no clue about reality. If you shoot a druggie in the chest/stomach area seven times and he has a knife, he will killyou becuase he has no clue that he is dying. Just like an animal would do. Of course the 1911 in 45 ACP has only 8 bullets, but they are massive in size and weight and create devastating wound cavities and cause massive bleeding unlike the tiny little 9mm. The 9mm is formidable if using some bonded hollow points or solid copper hollow points with +P loads, but it cannot compare to the 45 or the bone crushing power of the mighty 10mm - a load that the 40 S&W was derived from. The FBI tried adopting it but some of the agents could not take the recoil. We are talking about a load that when first developed was cracking the frames of some guns becuase of the power . They got that fixed now and you better pray some drug addict shooter never gets his hands on a 10mm Glock - 15 rounds of armor penetrating bonecrushing powerhouse loads that can damage a person's wrist if not properly handled. The 10mm can take down black bears and moose and it comes in semi-auto and yes you can turn it into a carbine AR rifle with a kit from Mech Tech Systems. There are few loads as fearedby armor wearing officers as the 10mm.
Today;s armor can withstand a 44 magnum light load and probably the 10mm as well, but ribs will be broken in any event.
I have heard some stupid liberals call to ban "armor peircing rounds". Well, that is almost 100 percent of all rifle bullets used to hunt deer with. Most any high powered rifle can penetrate armor even at long range. A 444 Marlin will pass through SWAT armor like it was cheese and never slow down. But it is legal to hunt deer with. It is generally a lrge game caliber designed for elk and moose and anything that can blow a hole through a moose can blow a hole through steel and kevlar as well.
Liberals talk big about controlling things, butusually they know very little about the things they wish to control. If they only knew how much others would like to control them for a change.
I do not know why heavenly streets are paved with gold or why the gates are adorned with precious stones – emrald, jade, ruby, etc. What does it matter?
They wouldn't be precious stones in heaven would they? Nothing to buy. No death or illness. Gold and jewellery would have no value.
Just hurry up and die EAP. The average IQ of the world will increase, and there will be less carbon pollution when you stop breathing.
Who has need of spiritual and healing properties in Heaven? Isn't Heaven by definition completely of the spirit, and isn't it supposed to be free of pain, disease and injury?
Which reminds me - you didn't address the question (amongst others) of whether oysters are exempted from the Heaven pain-and-suffering clause. Is Heaven imperfect if it permits the Gozilloysters to have an itch?
Ah, the problem is one of perspective...
The truth is that you underthink the "whole thing a bit much".
Tell me IC, is there hunting in Heaven? Guns?
Are those heavenly oysters really as big as supermarkets? If so, is it only the oysters that are giant, or are there other species that that are supersized in Heaven? And why are some species supersized in the first place? Or are humans actually shrunk compared with the rest of the biosphere of Paradise?
Bernard,
You've nailed it. That's the problem with people like us - we do that terrible thing called thinking. It causes lots of problems when people start to think. We get all sorts of ideas and start questioning what we are told.
Much better to be like EAP. Don't think. Just accept everything that your preacher tells you.
Oh - and don't forget to send in your money.
"Also, seven bullets is NOT enough."
Well, I guess not if you're as crap as you are with guns.
Will be easy pickings taking them off you.
@ wow
and exactly who is the criminal who is going to try and take them from me and why does he think that retaliation would not be sufficient if such an act of treason should occur?
@ mandas
that's right. just do what your government tells you and don;t forget to give them their cut of your labor's spoils.
@ Bernard
gun in heaven? Don't know. I hope so. I have quite an extensive wish list. Why not? The angels have sword and they are immortal. So why not have hunting, guns, sports, recreation, etc?
@ mandas
no such thing as carbon pollution. You are thinking like your world elitists like for you to think. Stop obeying the New World Order and stop sending them your money to "save the planet". They just use it to gain more control over you. Agenda 21 - read it. The most tyranical piece of legislation written in human history. Almost a satanic piece of crap.
"So why not have hunting, guns, sports, recreation, etc?"
Hunting huh? I thought there was no death in heaven.
"Agenda 21 – read it. The most tyranical piece of legislation written in human history. Almost a satanic piece of crap.
I have. But I will bet my next year's salary that you haven't. But that doesn't matter does it EAP, you have been told what to think about it.
And how are you going with your answer to my question about speciation? Got a response from AIG yet? And was the floodwater fresh or salty?
Sorry, I forgot.
If you think that Agenda 21 is 'legislation', then that is just one more thing we can add to the list of things that you know nothing about. It isn't legislation - never was and never will be.
I'm curious about this whole death-in-Heaven thing.
Is Heaven pain- and death-free, or is it not? If Heaven is death-free, what need do angels have for swords? And why swords - why not boomerangs, or boleadoras, or blowpipes?
Is there any death in Heaven?
Bernard
I would also have thought that immortal beings who existed outside space and time would probably have slightly more advance weapons than a bronze age piece of metal. A directed energy weapon perhaps.
But I guess the nomads who wrote those myths didn't have any concept of such technology. Probably the same reason that their concept of nirvana consists of streets made of a soft and valueless metal, with gates made from the kidney stones of giant molluscs.
I was just outside having a joint when I had an epithany. Swords - directed energy weapons. It is all clear to me now!
Angels are Jedi, and their swords are light sabers!
Remember: flaming swords. Light sabers cauterize. Coincidence? I think not.
Mandas.
Yes, it's odd that the weaponry of Heaven anachronistically reflects the technology of desert nomads.
Once IC has cleared up (in his own pretzelated mind) the matter of death and weapons in Heaven, I'm curious to know if those streets of gold wear out as much as gold does on Earth. Being as soft as it is, there would soon be gold-dust clogging all of the gutters in Heaven.
Oh, and do angels have bird wings?
@Bernard,
"Oh, and do angels have bird wings?"
If they do, they would surely have to be classed as insects, as all insects have six extremities as well.
@bernard
desert nomads called the taliban who held two Christian missionaries hostages dopped their personal defense weapons and fled the scene allowed said iostages to escape after witnessing angels with flaming swords coming toward them. This was in 2001 prior to the US invasion of Afghanistan. So, bernrd why did the taliban not see angels with flaming personal defense weapons?
*NOTE: A personal defense weapon is the new definition of "assault rifle". The federal government that just purchased 7,000 of these reclassified them as "personal defense weapons" for thier own teams while naming them "assault weapons" for anyone whom they say does not need one. Same gun,it justyt depends on who has one as to what it is called at the time.
@ mandas
if you want to get into direct energy weapons I can let you in on a secret as to how to obtain one. I know of four distict
locations. Agenda 21 is not legislation. you are correct. It is dicatorial tyranny in the making and everyone involved should be in prison. You want "man made" climate change? You got it. Now tell them to stop it. aircrap.org
Aircrap.org? Was IC one of those responding to the Lewandowsky survey?
"desert nomads called the taliban who held two Christian missionaries hostages dopped their personal defense weapons and fled the scene allowed said iostages to escape after witnessing angels with flaming swords coming toward them.
Ummmmm yeah. I think the men in white coats are needed for this one.
"after witnessing angels with flaming swords coming toward them"
It seems that IC really believes such nonsense. T ome it is proof that those religious nutwings will do anything to fool people, which includes telling the most absurd lies.
Or blowing them up.
There's no difference between IC and the raving loon Taliban.
"So, bernrd why did the taliban not see angels with flaming personal defense weapons?"
Are you really that stupid?
Yes, is the answer, JV.
A whole truckload of "yes".
Interesting find reported here:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0054…
@mandas
You don't really think that the link above is going to change the grey bunch of nerve endings that IC is pleased to call a mind do you? The link contains FACTS, and those do not count at all against an unproven and unprovable bunch of ancient myths, legends and wishful thinking.
I have in the past argued with (relatively) rational creationists, and when shown a clear contradiction, whether in scripture or science, they have realised that yes, there is a huge problem, not with the science, but in their insisting on a literal interpretation of the Bible. Of course, that did not result in them not believing in God, but at least they returned to the more reasonable Christian consensus that science actually has better answers at least, for the age of the Universe and planet Earth.
Similarly, I had a bit of a win with a previously AGW skeptic friend of mine, who had read Chrichton's execrable "State of Fear", and been convinced GW was a hoax. With some patient explanation and on being shown the incontrovertible facts, (plus having the dishonest methodology of denialists explained to him), he finally agrees that I might have a point.
This however, takes some capability of rational thought and objective reasoning. Qualities sadly lacking with IC.
Debunker
Yes, I realise that facts and evidence are immaterial to fundies like EAP. But I am not going to let his nonsense completely troll the discussion.
I will contrinue to act as I always do, and while I might poke fun at the idiocy of the fundie, I will not let it completely dominate everything and I will still post science article of interest for those of us who actually care about reality.
This is both funny and sad on so many levels.
First, it's a huge non sequitur. I asked you very specific questions about Heaven, not about Afghanistan.
Second, what is the source of this story about hallucinating Taliban? Is there actually any evidence that this happened? Or are you stretching your credulity to subatomic-thinness in order to permit that cognitive dissonance to whisper unheard underneath that neuron that you proudly call a brain?
Third, who said "personal defense weapons" must always flame?
Troll or sincere fundie, I hope that your spermatozoa never have the chance to fuse with any ova. There's already sufficient protozoan content in the human gene pool, without skewing it further with contributions from you.
And here's another question for you. Now that Ratzinger has quit his job, is he no longer holy?
If he is, does that mean that his successor is not holy? The Code of Canon Law 332 §2 states "If it happens that the Roman Pontiff resigns his office, it is required for validity that the resignation is made freely and properly manifested but not that it is accepted by anyone", which would seem to imply that he doesn't necessarily get to resign his commission and that holiness is sticky, but what if a pope loses his faith? Is he still holy even when he becomes secular? Just how would that work?
And of course this begs the question as to whether the long line of mediæval lechers, butchers, drunkards, despots and even women who wore the papal mantle were holy...
Yes Bernard,
I too would like some corroborating evidence for the "angels with flaming swords" bit above. Does IC really expect us to accept his say-so for such an incredible claim? He could, at least, post a link showing where he got this from. This is the amazing thing about these Fundies, they expect unreasonable standards of evidence, 100% proof, no less, for anything to do with Climate Science, but then instantly accept without reservation, such rubbish as the "angels" crap above, just because they happened to see it on some blog.
In a more general vein, Paul Krugman has an interesting post on the efforts of the GOP in the US to suppress critical thinking for the general masses.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/11/opinion/krugman-the-ignorance-caucus…
Some choice snippets:
" Last year the Texas G.O.P. explicitly condemned efforts to teach “critical thinking skills,” because, it said, such efforts “have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.”
or
Norfolk is among the American cities most vulnerable to climate change. But Republicans in the State Legislature have specifically prohibited the use of the words “sea-level rise.”
or
In her parting shot on leaving the State Department, Hillary Clinton said of her Republican critics, “They just will not live in an evidence-based world.”
IC to a "T".... I rest my case.... Nuff said.
I think it´ll fit here: Happy birthday, Charles Darwin. Also on behalf of IC.... ;-)))
It appears that IC has given up the mythological ectoplasmic entity.
Yes Bernard. He appears to have given up the unequal struggle and retired hurt. Pity, I rather looked forward to his inane and insane comments in a weird sort of way. He always had the ability to double down, and no matter how stupid a comment he had just made, always managed to follow it up with one even more stupid....
Don't mention his name a third time, guys.
Otherwise it'll be a round of "Hot potato, orchestra stalls, Puck will make amends" in the hope that the curse is warded.
And I would like some corroborating evidence that traditional darwinistic evolution theory, which laymen like Bernard, mandas, wow etc. etc. etc. etc, like so much without scientific understanding, is more than pure speculation.
Proof required, laymen!
Gee, Freddy/Kai is starting to sound more and more like a creationist. I'm also certain that at the very least Bernard has forgotten more about evolutionary biology than Freddy/Kai has ever learned.
"And I would like some corroborating evidence"
Go look at the book "On the Origin of The Species".
I don't think it would be a good idea to start this discussion all over again.
"freddy" (who might as well be kai) is just a troll.
So let's turn the table against him: freddy, can you supply ANY "evidence" AGAINST the theory of evolution that has not been on numerous occasions thoroughly been debunked?
Let me give you the answer as well: NO, YOU CANNOT! There is no such evidence.
Guys (marco, jan, mandas, wow, etc.) that's the only thing you really know "So let’s turn the table against him: freddy, can you supply ANY “evidence” AGAINST the theory of evolution that has not been on numerous occasions thoroughly been debunked?" When somebody asks you to provide evidence, what are YOU able to do: let's turn the table against the enemy. AND YOU YOUSELF are totally unable to provide any evidence in favour of what you want to be true. I don't play your primitive play, but ask you again:
Provide evidence! Proof required! Try to think and write decent statements instead of pure PTE.
There's plenty of evidence for evolution.
Go find some that counters that evidence.
Once one side has shown their evidence, the burden to prove themselves moves to the counterproposal.
So stop trying to run away and prove your case.
freddykaitroll is trolling again. Provide evidence and he'd still not understand it, because it contradicts his ideology.
But it's nice to know he's a creationist at heart. It explains why he's so thick.
Wow said:
"There’s plenty of evidence for evolution.
Go find some that counters that evidence.
Once one side has shown their evidence, the burden to prove themselves moves to the counterproposal"
That's exactly the primitive non-scientific way of argueing OF yours: YOU DON'T PROVIDE ANY EVIDENCE BUT BEHAVE AS IF YOU HAD PROVIDED EVIDENCE. MOUTH WIDE OPEN, SAYING. NIL, AND ARROGANT WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE.
You provide a "theory" and I ihave to falsify it? You are stupid and Marco the troll is even more stupid.
PROVIDE EVIDENCE! And don't tell me your rubbish: "it's self-evident, everybody knows it." This is no valid scientific argument. You appear were far away from scientific thinking and behavior.
wow, you maintain something, and others have to proof it!? Are you really mentally accountable?
wow, I think you have no idea what "evidence" really means.
Define what you understand under "evidence"!!
I also don't supply you with dictionaries or a thesaurus.
That is because you can find the evidence in a book called "On the Origin of the Species".
However, you refuse to read it.
That doesn't mean the evidence isn't there, only that you are ignorant.
"wow, you maintain something, and others have to proof it!?"
Proof?
Surely you mean "prove", right?
And no, I've never asked you to prove evolution.
I've asked you to show proof of your claims. Unless you're asserting that evolution exists, this would be proof of a different statement.
Or don't you do proofs yourself?
Summary:
Evolution is a joke created by a hairy dirty old man with nothing better to do.
Global warming is a hoax designed by elitists who run the world.It is designed to control population while gaining money and power to those alreayd rich and powerful while trampling on the rights of everyone under them and calling it "equality". Man made up global warming is a fraud and those involved should be stripped of their rights and imprisoned indefinitely.
Too much sodium fluoride in the water can make you stupid. Proof? This site. Need I say more. I can almost certain say that everyone who opposed me here lives in a place where poison (fluoride) is added to the water and now the same libtards are advocating adding oil sludge (cancer causing aspartame) to the milk. Idiots.
wow the non-scientist: "That is because you can find the evidence in a book called “On the Origin of the Species""
Obviously you have no idea what "evidence" is. What you call "evidence" is pure speculation without scientific proof.
Freddykaitroll wouldn't no scientific evidence even when it hit him in the head and slapped his face a few times.
"What you call “evidence” is pure speculation without scientific proof."
Wrong.
Again.
So freddy wants evidence?
There is plenty of it:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/search/topicbrowse2.php?topic_…
http://bioweb.cs.earlham.edu/9-12/evolution/HTML/live.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-research.html
Evidence explainend on the level of school children (which is probably more appropriate to freddy's level of education):
http://www.teachthemscience.org/evidence
Or if reading is too straining on him and he prefers pictures/films:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX_WH1bq5HQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cC8k2Sb1oQ8
As the first film says: "There are millions of pieces of evidence FOR the Theory of Evolution"
and - one might add - there is not a single shred of evidence AGAINST evolution.
It is indeed very tiring for scientifically-minded people to have to listen to the same old extremely stupid objections against evolutioon; objections that are NOT based on facts but - to put it mildly - on misconceptions, or - which is quite often the case - on malevolent lies.
IC and freddy do not have the intellectual capacity to engage in a discussion about the finer points of evolution, where there might be competing ideas about the right interpretation of a known fact.
The very basics of evolution have been solid scientific knowledge for well over a hundred years, only idiots and religious zealots who know NOTHING of biology have the insane audacity to try and challenge them.
Still waiting for kai/freddy to present us his knowledge of modern molecular biology which contradicts evolution.
Summary:
Christianity is a joke created by a hairy dirty old man with nothing better to do. Other than protect paedos from justice.
marco, before you write would it be imaginable for you to sort your thoughts and express them afterwards in understandable form. You can happily abstain from feelings of superiority and class, since you lack both.
Do better please and try to stick to a minimum of civilized politeness (I know this is hard for climate church members).
mandas-wow-marco-troll, I am still waiting for your presentation of evidence (not an old book title, please) supporting your claim that the old darwinisian evolution speculation is correct.
Proof required!!
Sorry, fredski. You set the tone. We're just following your lead on it.
"not an old book title, please"
Because you can't read?
Hate your local library?
Freddykaitroll is now also tonetrolling, and follows that by incivility...
There are actually millions of pieces of evidence FOR evolution and there is NO, NADA,ZERO,ZILCH evidence AGAINST evolution.
A simple web search reveals most of this evidence, so we do not have to point out to any of it.
If freddy had some serious counter evidence he could always produce it here, but all he and his kind have is pseudo-evidence that has been thoroughly refuted inumerable times. And all of that is on the internet, too.
He might as well ask for proof that Earth is revolving around the sun and not vice versa, but no one would take him seriously for that.
So why bother? He is either a moron or a died in the wool fraudulent religious bastard.
@wow
Good one. We all know who the hairy dirty old man was that was the father of your beloved evolution fairy tales, but who is the hairy dirty of man who created Christianity that you speak? Do not even say God or Jesus, becuase they were neither dirty nor a man. Nice try chump. Better luck next time. Now close your eyes, count to ten and I will gve you a nice big surprise.
@Marco said:
"Freddykaitroll is now also tonetrolling, and follows that by incivility…"
I do not react to such incivilities of a brat and poorly educated out-of-bond alarmist.
----- ignore ------
Jan: "There are actually millions of pieces of evidence FOR evolution"
I don't ask for millions but just for one. Please write it down in one short sentence and don't refer in a general manner to the internet. "The internet" is no argument, however a sentence with true substance on something relating to reality may be an argument.
One short sentence please on one piece of evidence.
You've ignored the existence of EVERY SINGLE ONE of those millions.
Nothing is going to get past your ignorance, so either you do your own homework or just sit there whining.
Those tempted to respond to freddykaitroll are reminded that the concept of a theory is not that it has "one piece of evidence", but rather encompasses many pieces of evidence and allows testable predictions. Any single observation can be explained by numerous different hypotheses. It is, however, the combination of observations that weeds out the functional and non-functional hypotheses.
Those who are actually interested in learning something, but lack the formal education may try and read Kardong's "An Introduction to Biological Evolution".
Do leave your ideology behind when reading the book, because you will for sure never learn anything about evolution when your starting point is "evolution = atheism = evil".
wow, instead of writing lollypop do the effort to name explicitly a piece of evidence. Don't always hide behind saying nothing. Try at least
Marco said: "Those tempted to respond to freddykaitroll are reminded that the concept of a theory is not that it has “one piece of evidence”, but ...."
This BS strikingly shows that your knowledge of science theory is nil. Please abstain from writing about a "theory" when you don't know what it is.
Cold virus.
Yes, freddie should give us "One short sentence please on one piece of evidence" that is not in compliance with the Theory of Evolution.
Fact is, however, that such "evidence" does not exist. NOTHING that was unearthed as a fossil nor ANY observation made by biologists about contemporary forms of life contradicts the Theory of Evolution, but millions and millions of pieces of evidence support the Theory of Evolution.
Neither freddie nor ICnor any other idiot will ever be able to produce ANY biological fact that could shake the Theory of Evolution even the tiniest bit.
Evolution is a FACT and the Theory of Evolution is the only existing explanation of this FACT.
Freddy, just read (if possible):
http://talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
PS: IC, you don´t need to bother...
I thought thiis thread had died. Oh well.
Did you all know that Charles Darwin was 22 when he embarked on the Beagle, and 50 (clean shaven and balding) when 'Origin of Species" was published? He started to grow a bear in 1863; 4 years later.
I wonder what 'hairy, dirty old man" EAP is referring to?
He just knows one picture. Nothing more. And he understands even less.
IC conspires:
So Freddy wants evidence for evolution in one sentence? Wilst it's obviously a gambit calculated to hamstring those who understand that evolution is in fact a verifiable process, I'll take up the challenge and raise him, by presenting evidence in one word.
Domestication.
Now, it's Freddy's turn to stump his evidence for the existence of the Christian God, and for his Biblical version of 'creation'. And note - the Bible is not a primary reference but rather unverified, fourth-hand mythology filtered by thousands of years of
1) cultural superstitions, assimilations and shifts,
2) transcription and translation errors
3) propagandist restructurings and other alterations
4) other compromising factors that could be listed ad nauseum...
Ahh, I recall the good old days, over a decade and a half ago now, when posters here had global warming to discuss.
What makes you insist that this is a site that only discusses global warming???
I demand that only global warming be discussed on this site.
I htink that's a great idea Paul. But do you mean the science, or the actions we need to take to deal with it?
if you haven't noticed, I've already taken care of it
Well, your demands are not going to be met.
And that isn't really an answer to the question, is it.
Query: What makes you insist that this is a site that only discusses global warming???
Answer: I demand it!
Question still remains: What makes you demand that this is a site that only discusses global warming?
Bernard: "Domestication" as proof of evidence for evolution???
Scientific references required! (peer-reviewed original journal articles only, please!)
You wanted only a single sentence in evidence. You got it.
Working it out is your problem. Do your own homework, you blithering incompetent idiot.
wow, who has asked you?
For someone who is pontificating all the time about others ' supposed lack of scientific knowledge, freddykaitroll apparently has never heard of scientific search engines that allow one to look up scientific papers on the topic.
It is clear freddykaitroll will also not understand any original journal articles on the topic, since they will contradict his ideology. Therefore, I predict that he will dismiss any evidence provided as being evidence.
freddy, who cares?
MarcoTroll
utter nonsense, I am the one who understands easily what such a short intellect is able to expressm but you are totally unable to follow me, due to severe limitations in all dimensions.
Poor MarcoTroll, calm down and try to improve your life, instead of wasting your time with useless hatred and mean emotions. With this kind of work you will never earn reasonable money and your mental problems will grow. For the sake of your family try to improve your severe deficits.
MarcoWowMandasBernardTroll: your low intellect makes it so easy to bring you so fast to your limits.
Poor guys. Your battle is lost. So stop wasting your time. The world will not listen to further CO2 insane statements from fraudulent climatologists and will enjoy a future without YOU, you basterds.
Still being an ignorant tosspot, freedy?
You get precisely what you deserve and all that you can manage. you are ignorant and proud of it, clinging to it and unable (and definitely unwilling) to let go.
You're a fool and an ignoramus.
"So stop wasting your time"
that's precisely what we're doing, troll-boy.
It's a waste of time responding to your demands for information because you are intellectually, ideologically and morally incapable of understanding it because you DO NOT WANT to understand it.
We know the battle to educate you is lost, which is why we didn't bother trying.
Freddykaitroll is projecting once again.
Wow,
Youre right, That wasn't the answer to your question.
It was to demonstrate that your question didn't logically follow my first comment by putting forth a comment which your question could logically follow.
It only demonstrated that you're a petulant and self-centred child.
Domestication.