Grant time again! Since today--yes, today!--is the deadline for a rather big grant I'm writing (not quite R01 level, but a respectable three year project if I can get it), I was up until the wee hours of the morning trying to put this sucker to bed. Being the ever-benevolent blogger, though, far be it from me to deny you some Insolence. It's just recycled Insolence. Of course, given that this is nearly four years old, if you've been reading less than four years, it's new to you! I'll be back tomorrow; that is, assuming I've recovered. As I look at this post, it occurs to me that I haven't written about evolution in a while. I might have to remedy that sometimes soon. After all, Dr. Egnor is still around and still laying down the flaming stupid.
Dr. Michael Egnor must really want to operate on my brain because he's sure as heck doing his best to cause it damage with his latest antievolution "broadsides," even to the point where it needs the loving ministrations of a neurosurgeon! His latest screeds produce in me a nearly irresistible urge to pound my head against the nearest hard surface to make the psychic pain stop. He's placing me in danger of real, physical pain, from epidural hematoma (in fact, I wonder if I'm in the middle of a lucid interval right now) to subdural hematoma to cerebral contusions.
First of all, regular readers may have noted that I haven't yet responded to the latest broadside against me launched by the Discovery Institute's new resident medical "expert," creationist neurosurgeon extraordinaire Dr. Michael Egnor. There's a reason for that, and it's quite simple. As I've said before, I don't want this blog to become "all Egnor, all the time." There is such a thing as too much of a good thing (having a good laugh at the expense of Dr. Egnor for his ever increasingly incorrect and even mutually contradictory assertions about evolution--or "Darwinism," as he insists and calling it with a sneer), and even my (hopefully) amusing deconstructions of his silliness run the risk of being tiresome after a while. Second, I am somewhat sympathetic to the complaint that I've occasionally heard voiced that Dr. Egnor is just so ridiculously--nay, flamboyantly--wrong about evolution that he's not worth the effort that it takes to debunk him. Afarensis has even gone so far as to speculate that Dr. Egnor and Dembski's attack "intelligent design" mouse DaveScot are actually one and the same person. It's a tempting thought, but I don't think so after having heard Dr. Egnor on some of his podcasts. Finally, I rather suspect that Dr. Egnor has figured out that "answering" criticisms leveled against him is a good way to get a lot of bloggers interested in evolution to link to the pathetic Discovery Institute blog, thus driving its traffic to many times its usual level. So far, it's working. However, even at the risk of doing that, Dr. Egnor did directly address me directly with his latest mangling of logic claiming that evolution "is of no use" to understanding cancer. It's almost as though he's asking for yet another dose of Respectful Insolenceâ¢.
Actually, there's no "almost" about it.
Consequently, in spite of the fact that I've been trying to ration my responses to Dr. Egnor and even was tempted to leave his latest volley alone, in which he criticizes my discussions of how evolutionary theory is increasingly being used in understanding how cancer develops and grows, specifically my year-old discussion of the use of the Shannon index to predict in which patients Barrett's esophagus will develop into frank cancer as opposed to never progressing, I feel obliged to grant Dr. Egnor his wish and give him a taste of what he apparently craves. Oddly enough, though he left alone my more recent discussions of how evolutionary theory is being increasingly used not only to study tumor cell populations but how evolution helps us to understand why various alleles predisposing to cancer do not disappear from the human population. In any case, his response to my discussion of evolutionary theory and cancer left me truly, truly puzzled. Once again, in his eagerness to "rebut" me, he's apparently forgotten what he's written before and, once again, amusingly appearing to rebut one of his own earlier arguments.
Here's what Dr. Egnor said a while back:
This is the age of pseudo-Darwinism. Pseudo-Darwinism is the synthesis of Darwin's theory and 'anything you can think of.' We have the synthesis of Darwin's theory and the discovery of the genetic code. We have the synthesis of Darwin's theory and the biotech industry (transgenic organisms are designed and bred to produce human insulin--thanks to Darwin!). We have the synthesis of Darwin's theory and cancer research. We have the synthesis of Darwin's theory and psychology (evolutionary psychology), Darwin's theory and sociology (sociobiology), Darwin's theory and culture (memes), Darwin's theory and literature (literary Darwinism), Darwin's theory and cosmology (multiverses), and Darwin's theory and, well, everything (Dennett's universal acid). None of these have anything to do with Darwin's theory--the theory that all natural biological complexity arose by non-teleological variation and natural selection.
Got it? According to Dr. Egnor, applying "Darwinism" to the study of cancer is "pseudo-Darwinism." However, in his eagerness to attack me, he seems to have changed his mind:
Yet Darwin's theory is related to cancer, in a very important way. Darwin asserted that all natural integrated biological complexity arose by random variation and natural selection. Cancer does seem to grow in accordance with Darwin's mechanism. The "variation" of cancer cells seems random, and cancer cells are certainly "naturally selected," in the tautological sense that replicating cells eventually outnumber non-replicating cells. Darwin's theory can be applied to cancer, trivially.
The converse is more interesting: cancer can be applied to Darwin's theory. Cancer is a Darwinian process, unlike the examples of experimental molecular design and artificial selection that Darwinists often cite inappropriately as applications of Darwin's theory. Darwinists claim that "random variation and natural selection" is a model of cancer growth, and they're right.
Come on, can't Dr. Egnor even keep his misinformation straight? In the first quote, he rails against the application of "Darwinism" to the study of cancer as "pseudo-Darwinism" but now turns right around and admits that, yes, cancer is indeed a Darwinian process. Indeed, shockingly, he gets one part mostly right when he points out that random mutation leads to phenotypic changes that allow uncontrolled proliferation, the ability to evade the immune system, invasion, angiogenesis, and ultimately metastasis, and indeed the cells in a tumor mass are genetically heterogeneous. Among this heterogeneous population of cells, the selective pressures of the immune system, hypoxia (requiring angiogenesis to overcome), and the normal signals the body is always producing to keep cells from proliferating when they are not supposed to proliferate eliminate tumor cells unable to do these things and lead to the preferential proliferation of more malignant clones.
A better description of natural selection in action on a cellular level, I have a hard time imagining!
I have to admit that I remain very confused. Think about it. If, as Dr. Egnor admits, cancer is indeed a "Darwinian" process, then how on earth can he say that understanding evolution (or, in Egnor-speak, "Darwinism") is useless for understanding cancer and designing more effective therapies? Does anyone see the logical fallacy there? Basically, Dr. Egnor's just admitted that the evolution of a cancer from random genetic mutation is "Darwinian" but then says that "Darwinism" tells us nothing about cancer. True, he uses the same lame and fallacious claim that natural selection is a "tautology" in this context, just as he did when arrogantly dismissing the role of evolution and selection in the evolution of bacterial resistance to antibiotics. It's such a lame argument that it was debunked long ago, one deconstruction being featured on TalkOrigins.org. He also uses the same old straw man that Darwin said that "all" complexity arises from random variation and natural selection, when in fact Darwin said that he thought natural selection was the main (but not the only) force responsible.
Dr. Egnor's understanding of chemotherapy and radiation theory could use some fine-tuning, as well:
Chemotherapy and radiation therapy are designed with the view that the tumor is a heterogeneous collection of cells. That's why radiation therapy is usually delivered in fractionated doses over a period of time, to destroy cells that are cycling through intervals of sensitivity and insensitivity. Is the view that pre-cancerous lesions are "thousands of cells" and not just a "single organism" really novel to Orac, who is a surgical oncologist? Of course not.
First off, I never said that treating a tumor as thousands of clones of cells (not cells, Dr. Egnor) is something novel. I merely pointed out that that's how the researchers did the study that I described and applied evolution and the Shannon index to the development of esophageal cancer from Barrett's esophagus. Second off, radiation therapy is not given in fractionated doses to destroy tumor cells that are cycling through "periods of sensitivity and insensitivity." Rather, it is given that way to save as many surrounding normal cells as possible from the radiation. The basis of this effect is that tumor cells are generally defective in DNA repair and cannot repair damage from radiation to their DNA as efficiently as normal cells. By giving the normal cells a "rest" between smaller fractions (doses) of radiation, we allow the normal cells to recover and repair their DNA, while the tumor cells are not as good at doing that and thus continue to accumulate DNA damage with each new fraction. Thus, giving radiation in multiple fractions, usually separated by a day, maximizes the differential toxicity of radiation to the tumor cells compared to the normal cells, sparing as many normal cells as possible. If radiation therapists just blasted away with a single fraction, the "collateral damage" to surrounding normal tissue would be severe. (It's known as a burn.) Radiation oncologists sometimes do that when fast tumor shrinkage is urgently needed (for example, in the case of a tumor compressing the spinal cord), but usually they do not. As for chemotherapy, it is indeed true that chemotherapy regimens are in some cases timed to provide better synchronization with the cell cycle, but in reality such strategies tend not to work that well, mainly because the cells in a tumor replicate asynchronously; i.e., they're randomly distributed between the phases of the cell cycle, and it's quite difficult to synchronize them. In reality, though, the main reason for multi-drug combinations aimed at different molecular targets is that tumors very rapidly develop resistance to single-drug regimens. How does Dr. Egnor think tumor cells accomplish this? His "tautology" of selection does it quite well, selecting for resistant clones, which exist because of the high mutation rates in tumors. Dr. Egnor should know the mechanisms by which radiation and chemotherapy kill tumors and the rationale behind why they are administered the way they are.
It's amusing indeed that Dr. Egnor successfully refutes his own argument. Now that I think about it, I didn't even have to make reference to his previous posts. Dr. Egnor refutes himself quite well all in the same post. But, sadly, he wasn't done, yet, alas. Just when I think that Dr. Egnor can't elevate the stupid any higher, he straps on rockets and and hits the "lift off" button. Mike pointed me to this new gem by Dr. Egnor, in which he attempts to refute neurologist and skeptic Dr. Steve Novella's discussion of why a previous tract by Egnor was wrong:
Dr. Novella is missing a much better example of random mutation and natural selection that's not metaphorical at all. Cancer is a test of Darwin's theory. Cancer is real biological evolution by random mutation and natural selection, writ fast. There's no reason to invoke encyclopedia typos or tractor engines in order to understand what "chance and necessity" can do to a living system. Brain tumors are perfect little Novellian "two-cycle engines" nestled inside the skull, "random mutations" coming out the ears, and "natural selection" like there's no tomorrow (excuse the metaphors). Brain tumors are constantly generating new biological variation, and they are avatars of natural selection. They provide a tremendous spectrum of variation, from "variation jet-engines" like malignant glioblastoma multiforme to "variation tortoises" like benign pilocytic astrocytomas. Cancer wards are full of patients brimming with "two-stroke engines" of evolutionary change.
Besides noting that, once again Dr. Egnor refutes his previous assertions that evolution is "useless" for studying cancer. He even characterizes tumors as "'random mutations' coming out the ears, and 'natural selection' like there's no tomorrow, "avatars of natural selection"!
Thanks again, Dr. Egnor.
Here's where he dives more deeply into the stupid after describing himself, quite appropriately, as "just a rube" (certainly with regard to evolution he is):
The best real biological test of "shuffling around information, duplicating, and altering the information" is cancer. According to Dr. Novella's reasoning, brain tumors ought to be generating quite a bit of "meaningful and even useful new information." Better neuroanatomy and better neurophysiology ought to be popping up "easily." Better frontal lobes and cognition, from cancer. Better temporal lobes and memory, from cancer. Better cerebellums and coordination, from cancer. If random mutations and natural selection--Dr. Novella's "two stroke engine"--is the source of all functional integrated biological complexity, brain tumors ought to help our brains evolve in some way.
Perhaps Dr. Novella has data that show real evolutionary improvements in the brain caused by brain tumors. If he has, he should show us.
I have to admit that this is a creationist argument that I had never heard before--after I wiped my drink off my computer screen, that is. The reason, I suspect, is that even Kent Hovind on a weekend bender wouldn't make an argument this monumentally bad. It's the Mt. Everest of dumb. Of course, Mike and Mark completely shred this mind-bogglingly idiotic argument quite handily, but I'll elaborate somewhat. As Mike points out, Dr. Egnor is completely ignoring the distinction of what selection is working on in this example, specifically whether Darwinian processes are working on the organism as a whole or on the tumor cells. Evolution only works on heritable variation, leading to an increase in the frequency of alleles in subsequent generations that increase fitness and a decrease in those leading to a decrease in fitness. The only way for evolution to "improve the brain" (whatever that means) is through many generations of offspring under selective pressure. However, at the level of the tumor cell, Dr. Egnor again unknowingly presents a great explanation why tumors represent a Darwinian process, all the while denying that they do. Again, random mutations in the tumors lead to high degrees of genetic variability, and selective pressures act on that variability so that each generation of tumor cell progeny develop a greater degree of "fitness" for doing what tumor cells do, namely growing, invading, tricking the body to supply them with blood and nutrients, and metastazing. My only quibble with Mike is that there's no "sometimes" about this process. It happens in virtually all tumors, beginning right after very first mutations lead to loss of growth control, as the tumor microenvironment selects for clones that proliferate, invade, induce angiogenesis, and metastasize, etc.. These same sorts of mutations are naturally selected for after a a cell is transformed into a malignant cell, and when a tumor is treated with chemotherapy, resistance is artificially selected for.
You know, I used to joke about putting a paper bag over my head in embarrassment at Dr. Egnor's antics. I was kidding then. Maybe I shouldn't have been. In fact, given that Dr. Egnor has seemingly settled in to become a permanent fixture and a permanent embarrassment to the profession of surgeon, maybe it's not too late to get the more permanent solution that I had once mentioned, namely a Doctor Doom-style metal mask. In the meantime, while having the Doom mask forged by Tibetan monks, I could wear a hockey mask.
I could borrow it from EneMan.
ADDENDUM: Dr. Novella adds his two cents here.
Most amusingly of all, Dr. Egnor adds some more rockets to the stupid, enough to blast it to Mars, here, where he basically claims that all science is based on the Judeo-Christian "design inference." He even has the chutzpah to mention Galileo as evidence. (As a Catholic, doesn't he remember that little thing about the Catholic Church putting Galileo under house arrest and forcing him to recant?) He also seems to forget that the origins of science lie before Christianity, namely among those pagan Greeks and Egyptians, among others.
"In fact, given that Dr. Egnor has seemingly settled in to become a permanent fixture and a permanent embarrassment to the profession of surgeon..."
Like all surgeons (or doctors) are god-like -Here is a nice clip from CBS showing surgery fraud
@1 - and that relates to the topic of this post... how?
Most amusingly of all, Dr. Egnor adds some more rockets to the stupid, enough to blast it to Mars, here, where he basically claims that all science is based on the Judeo-Christian "design inference."
He refers essentially to the adoption of the cosmology of Plato's Timaeus and Aristotelian causes by medieval christians. Of course, such fantasies have long been abandoned by science primarily since they denied the usefulness of empirical methods. Like any unsupported hypotheses they were eventually replaced by testable theories.
Dr. Egnor is as bad a historian as he is a surgeon.
The idea that the Judeo-Christian religion is the foundation of modern science is a conceit only found among uninformed, dogmatic christians. If it weren't for Islamic and Hindu mathematics, the work of the pagans Euclid, Hipparchus, Ptolemy, Galen (to name a few) western europe would have remained the scientific backwater that it was for most of its history. What's more, even despite these riches there was a strong movement to suppress the scientific quadrivium in medieval europe and adopt instead the Augustinian doctrina christiana which strictly forbade scientific curiosity. In short, there were simply no christian scientists of stature in the middle ages or antiquity. Dogmatic christians like Egnor are somehow proud of their adoption of platonic cosmology and aristotelian physics, not understanding, or simply not caring about, their serious and well-known shortcomings.
Dr. Egnor hasn't even learned Galen's lesson:
"And when he reaches early adolescence he must become possessed with an ardent love for truth, like one inspired, neither day nor night may he cease to urge and strain himself in order to learn thoroughly all that has been said by the most illustrious of the Ancients. And when he has learned this, then for a prolonged period he must test and prove it, observe what part is in agreement, and what in disagreement with obvious facts; thus he will choose this and turn away from that. To such a person my hope has been that my treatise would prove of the very greatest assistance. Still, such people may be expected to be quite a few in number, while, as for the others, this book will be as superfluous to them as a tale told to an ass."
-Galen, On the natural faculties 3.10
...sounds like something to add to your cancer-fighting arsenal; but safer than chemo...
I don't think that linking a six year old CBS story about private insurance fraud is the topic of discussion here. The linked video shows a failure of a private health care insurer's to monitor the appropriateness of certain procedure in storefront surgical centers (endoscopy and colonoscopy for children), inflated payments for such procedures and so-called cosmetic procedures (which are usually only covered by public and private insurance for repair of congenital facial deformities or reconstructive surgeries following an accident or cancer surgery). I think Blue Cross/Blue Shield had very lax claims department review staff; oftentimes further arrests are reported because staff within the claims department are in on the scam.
Are there crooked doctors who game the system?; sure. Are there crooked durable medical equipment suppliers?; definitely. That's why private insurance companies have their own investigators and why the Medicare/Medicaid fraud bureaus are actively pursuing and prosecuting those who commit fraud.
At issue here is a physician Dr. Egnor, who perhaps is so blinded by his evangelical christian beliefs, that he is willing to commit intellectual fraud. He has aligned himself with the Discovery Institute; one of their "in-house" intellectuals. This group are science-deniers who seek to impose their belief system on public school children's science textbooks, in our health care system and in politics, because they state this is a "christian" country.
@ lilady** : You know, I think that often those with rigid belief systems ( e.g. woo true believers, anti-vaxxers, HIV/AIDS denialists, YEC's)- have a curious advantage over us ( not that I'd change anything)- easy answers, lack of tolerance for ambiguity, black-and-white thinking, self-righteous indignation, inability to take the other person's perspective, solipcism, lots of fuel for rants and trolling, etc.- while our own flexibilty and hopes for equitableness can be mis-interpretted, by them, as uncertainty, weakness, or god-knows-what: it makes life easier for them. And the difference cannot be taught quickly.
It's more difficult to balance our communications with those *not* of like-mind. What do we do about the trolls? They have surely descended upon us recently. A certain part of me (the geisha) says, " You can catch more flies with sugar than with vinegar" while I simultaneously feel that presenting simple, unadorned statements about SBM may be most direct pathway to influencing others. Then again, sometimes ridicule is the only avenue. So I guess, we go for a multi-pronged assault.
** (BTW, fine job you've done with you-know-who)
You know, I think that often those with rigid belief systems ( e.g. woo true believers, anti-vaxxers, HIV/AIDS denialists, YEC's)- have a curious advantage over us ( not that I'd change anything)
Supportive politicians. No incentive to learn. Intellectual laziness. Tax breaks at the drop of a hat. Total trust without needing a scrap of evidence. Their fans' infinite forgiveness for bad grammar and spelling.
Success in their work is allowed to be indistinguishable from failure. People aren't closed-minded about positive outcomes having to look like positive outcomes. They're free to declare any measure of their work that looks bad to be inapplicable.
I'm telling you, trying to actually learn stuff is hard work. Making stuff up as you go along is way more humanistic, man. Let's all just slouch in bean bag chairs and shout random Creationist, Communist, McCarthyist, Wooist and Denialist talking points until a crowd of dumb and easily impressed true believers starts lavishing free beer on us.
The best thing to do with people who use a different standard for measuring truth - namely, true believers for whom "convenient for me" = true and "inconvenient or of no use to me" = false - is to get other people listening to your argument and argue for the sake of the audience.
I used to draw student election candidates into arguments just to try to expose their ideas in front of a crowd. One time we had a guy arguing we should leave the Canadian Federation of Students and have no student union. He could not argue if his laptop, which was on a federal Conservative Party web page of anti-student-union talking points, was closed. As soon as his laptop was closed, he resorted to Godwinisms about gays being Nazis. Arging with him did nothing to change his opinion, but he certainly didn't impress his audience.
So I say go after the biggest, most politically anointed trolls, and bait the trolls into revealing the depths of their ignorance, or any total dependence on political masters to spoon feed them their talking points. It makes things obvious to fence-sitters and passers-by.
Let's all just slouch in bean bag chairs and shout random Creationist, Communist, McCarthyist, Wooist and Denialist talking points until a crowd of dumb and easily impressed true believers starts lavishing free beer on us.
Well, when you put it that way, it does sound appealing. Free beer is a strong motivator.
On a serious note, I don't normally care what people want to believe, but when someone's ideological stance interferes with things like cancer research it's hard to just point and laugh at them.
@ Scott Cunningham: (You realise that my remark and question were mostly rhetorical).
In dealing with trolls, a spectrum of responses will probably address their differing proclivities. There is room for friendly communicators, straight-forward teachers, snarky ridiculers, etc. ( and we have them all!) Of course, it's more likely we actually affect attitudes in the undecided: remember that some people will *always* remain unreachable and may function solely (unfortunately) as "bad examples". It's the way of the world and the world's a b#tch.
As a *slightly* older sceptic, I applaud you and others, like nybgrus, still in undergrad, grad,or med school, out there fighting the good fight.
As for getting people to "reveal the depths of their ignorance", I used to interview people and could tell you stories ...
"...The best thing to do with people who use a different standard for measuring truth - namely, true believers for whom "convenient for me" = true and "inconvenient or of no use to me" = false - is to get other people listening to your argument and argue for the sake of the audience.
"I used to draw student election candidates into arguments just to try to expose their ideas in front of a crowd. One time we had a guy arguing we should leave the Canadian Federation of Students and have no student union. He could not argue if his laptop, which was on a federal Conservative Party web page of anti-student-union talking points, was closed. As soon as his laptop was closed, he resorted to Godwinisms about gays being Nazis. Arging with him did nothing to change his opinion, but he certainly didn't impress his audience..."
"...On a serious note, I don't normally care what people want to believe, but when someone's ideological stance interferes with things like cancer research it's hard to just point and laugh at them..."
Right on! :D
"...He even has the chutzpah to mention Galileo as evidence. (As a Catholic, doesn't he remember that little thing about the Catholic Church putting Galileo under house arrest and forcing him to recant?)..."
Nitpick: Galileo was still Catholic himself and some other high-ranking Catholics (not just the mother superior of the convent his daughters were in either) took his side. Check out the book Galileo's Daughter by Dava Sobel. :)
We have the synthesis of Darwin's theory and the discovery of the genetic code.
No, we have the discovery of genes BACKING UP and ENHANCING Darwin's original theory, by providing the specific mechanism needed to pass on and modify psysical traits over time.
The rest of his idiotic tirade about "Pseudo-Darwinism" is just an admission that evolutionary theory is a LOT more central to all biological sciences than Egnor admits it is.
Orac is right: Egnor can't even make a coherent case here. He's so incoherent, in fact, I'm inclined to suspect an emotional disorder.