If there's one thing that will annoy an antivaccinationist, it's to call her what she is: Antivaccine. While it's true, as I've pointed out on numerous occasions, that there are some antivaccinationists who are antivaccine and proud, unabashedly proclaiming themselves antivaccine and making no bones about it, the vast majority of antivaccinationists deny they are antivaccine. They frequently retort that they are "not antivaccine" but rather "pro-vaccine safety" or some such dodge. Most recently, we've seen this tack taken by Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. (and, of course, Bill Maher) himself, the man whose unhinged conspiracy mongering screed was my "gateway" to noticing and deconstructing antivaccine beliefs nearly a decade ago. it's a refrain I first noticed in a big way when the celebrity face of the antivaccine movement, Jenny McCarthy herself, started using it. Whenever I start hearing that "I'm not antivaccine" refrain, I like to dig up examples of rhetoric from the antivaccine movement to put the lie to that claim. Of course, "dig up" is probably the wrong term; I rarely have to look far, and so it was this time..
Mike Adams let it rip, possibly surpassing even what I thought to be the most vile analogy every made about vaccines. It was by an Marcella Piper-Terry, comparing vaccination to rape. True, it could be argued that comparisons to the Holocaust are worse, but let's just say it's a tossup. Not surprisingly, Mikey's latest rants are in response to California bill SB 277, which is a bill currently wending its way through the California Senate that would eliminate nonmedical exemptions to school vaccine mandates. Of course, any attempt to make exemptions to chool vaccine mandates harder to obtain causes the antivaccine movement to go into paroxysms of Holocaust analogies, complete with images of jackbooted fascists knocking on parents' doors in the middle of the night, syringes in hand, to throw the parents aside and vaccinate their children forcibly.
Coming back to the rape analogy, that's where Adams goes with a post entitled Progressive lawmakers in California violate women's rights with SB 277; children to be physically violated by government without parental consent and SB 277 will unleash "medical civil war" in California as parents demand doctors be arrested for felony assault. The level of paranoia in these screeds is truly beyond belief; that is, unless you've never encountered Adams before. Actually, the spin Adams tries to put on this is to make "vaccine choice" a matter of women's rights:
Seriously, this is stupid even by Mike Adams standards. Here's a taste of the written version, but to experience the full stupidity, you really need to watch the video:
California lawmakers pushing the mandatory vaccine initiative SB 277 are almost all Democrats. These are the same people who defiantly defend the right of "a woman's choice" to decide the issue of abortion. We are repeatedly told that abortion is the woman's choice alone, and that no government, no man and no doctor can force a woman to do something with her body against her will.
This also holds true with the issue of sexual encounters, where we are frequently reminded that NO means NO. If the woman doesn't consent, then it's called rape. So what do you call a forced medical intervention that physically violates a woman's body against her wishes? "Medical rape" doesn't seem quite appropriate. There must be a more poignant term for it.
Do you see the the problem with this analogy? It's incredibly obvious. SB 277 has nothing to do with forcing women to receive vaccinations they don't want. There's nothing in the bill that would do that, nor is there anything any pro-vaccine advocate proposes that would compel an adult woman (or man) to be vaccinated against her (or his) will. That's not what school vaccine mandates are about. None of this stops Adams from going full mental jacket antivax on the video, ranting about "toxins" and "formaldehyde" while referring to vaccines "maiming" children and implying that the government will require pregnant women to be vaccinated, thus causing all sorts of birth defects. His antivaccine dog whistles are whistling to the point that even mere humans can hear them behind Adams' cries of "choice," "human dignity," "civil rights," and "human freedom."
There's another aspect of Adams' truly silly analogy here that might not be obvious on the surface. Adams goes on and on about the supposed disconnect between what liberals believe about women when it comes to reproductive choice and giving consent to sex, as well as its anti-corporatism, to what he describes as their advocacy of giving corporations the power to "violate" women with "forced vaccination." Think about the assumption behind this whole line of "reasoning" (if you can call it that). The only assumption that makes this argument coherent (if you can call it that and even then it's still wrong on many other levels) is if you assume that the child is an extension of the woman's body. Thus, "violating" the child by "forced vaccination" is violating the woman. It's hard not to look at it any other way.
Indeed, Adams seems to be doing Rand Paul even one better. Remember how Rand Paul, interrupting a female reporter's question about his stance on school vaccine mandates, said, "The state doesn’t own the children. Parents own the children, and it is an issue of freedom.” Here, Adams seems to be saying that children aren't even property. They're just extension of the woman's body.
Either that, or Adams thinks his audience is too stupid not to discern the difference between forcing an adult woman to be vaccinated (which is not what is being considered, given that every adult has the right to refuse any medical intervention and no one—I mean, no one—is questioning that) and requiring a child to be vaccinated before she can attend school. It could easily be either—or both.
Adams tries to make hay out of claiming that "injection without consent is a violation of the American Medical Association's code of ethics:
A mandatory vaccination policy -- forced vaccination of unwilling recipients -- is, by definition, a medical intervention carried out without the consent of the patient or the patient's parents. This directly violates the very clear language in the Informed Consent section of the AMA Code of Medical Ethics which states:
The patient should make his or her own determination about treatment... Informed consent is a basic policy in both ethics and law that physicians must honor, unless the patient is unconscious or otherwise incapable of consenting and harm from failure to treat is imminent.
The AMA's Code of Medical Ethics statement is very clear: "physicians must honor" the policy of informed consent. In fact, the AMA describes this as "a basic policy in both ethics and law" and only makes exception if the patient "is unconscious" or if harm from failure to treat "is imminent."
Except that, again, this is not "forced" vaccination. Parents can still refuse to vaccinate their children. However, if they do so, then they must realize that there will be consequences flowing from that decision. Children attending school have a right to a safe school environment, and unvaccinated children endanger that environment by making outbreaks of vaccine-preventable disease more likely. Questions like this always boil down to a question of balancing individual rights versus the good of society. Also in the mix is the right of the child to proper medical care, particularly preventative care like vaccines, a right that people like Rand Paul and Mike Adams dismiss completely. To them, the child is nothing more than a possession or extension of the parents.
In any case, as Dorit Reiss explains, the doctrine of informed consent does not trump public health mandates and potential tort liability:
Does the Doctrine of Informed Consent Trump Public Health Mandates and Potential Tort Liability?
To repeat, the short answer is no. First, public health regulation always imposes some burden on the exercise of autonomy. Second, one may have both the private right to informed consent before vaccination and the public health obligation to be vaccinated. And the existence of the doctrine of informed consent does not mean there will be no other consequences to the informed decision that one makes.
And:
Since the famous case of Jacobson v. Massachusetts, states have had wide powers to regulate for the public health – and, more particularly, impose immunization requirements – even at some cost to individual rights. Note that even Jacobson acknowledged that individual rights are not absolute. Laws passed by the states in this context must meet constitutional standards. For example, most scholars see Jacobson as constitutionally requiring that a state allow a medical exemption to immunization requirements.
But as long as they meet constitutional requirements, states may legislate or regulate to protect the public health. The requirements they put in place are not inconsistent with and do not violate informed consent. For example, quarantine laws are extremely coercive, imposing very strong limits on private autonomy – but they are constitutional, and no, they do not violate informed consent (pdf), either. Nor do school immunization requirements – even those without non-medical exemptions.
In other words, Adams' argument, as you might imagine, is a smokescreen without any basis in law or a compelling basis in ethics. Not that this stops Adams from predicting a "medical civil war" in which parents will demand that doctors be arrested for felony assault. Now, I'm not a lawyer, nor do I even play one in the blogosphere, but even I recognize Adams' legal reasoning as being—shall we say?—fantasy-based. He uses as part of his basis a law in Ohio that allows charging an HIV-positive person with "felonious assault" for having sex with someone without informing him or her of that positive HIV status, which makes me wonder why the same law doesn't include people with hepatitis B or C, both of which are also potentially deadly diseases and far more likely to be transmitted in a single act of sexual intercourse than HIV. Adams also cites federal law:
According to federal law enforcement, a needle is categorized as a "weapon" in the context of a physical assault. For example, if you were to acquire the blood of an HIV-positive person, fill a syringe with it, then assault someone with that needle, you would not only be charged with a felony assault, but an assault with a deadly weapon (the needle).
Under Ohio law, for example, it is explained as: "...causing or attempting to cause serious harm with a deadly weapon or a firearm -- referred to in the Ohio statutes as a 'dangerous ordnance.'"
When administered without consent, a vaccine injection is a physical violation of a human body. The substance contained in the vaccine is provably harmful and, in some cases, even deadly. Under Ohio sentencing guidelines, an individual forcing a vaccination upon someone without their consent would be committing a "felonious assault with dangerous ordnance."
Excuse me. I can't go on; I need a break. I'm laughing too hard as I read the above passage again.
OK, I'm fine again.
Talk about some mental contortions! See Mikey shamelessly mix federal and state law (of a single state, yet) to come up with a new legal "theory" that lets him label vaccination as a "felonious assault with dangerous ordnance"! The rest of what flows from Adams' assumptions is simply too dumb to be real, except that I know it is real, because Mike Adams is capable of such depths. Read his rationale for how doctors committing "vaccine violence" against children would earn 41 months in federal prison (or more). But be prepared. Steel yourself. If you have any critical thinking skills, knowledge of vaccines, and even a rudimentary knowledge of the law on par with what many educated people do, you will have a headache from tightly clenched teeth, which will lose some enamel from grinding. It all depends upon Adams' considering needles on syringes containing vaccines as needles "containing a potentially dangerous substance" and such needles are considered a "dangerous weapon" by all law enforcement organizations. Based on this speculation, Adams cranks the crazy up to 11 and writes:
Under both federal and state law, parents who believe their children face the risk of imminent harm from a violent attack upon their bodies have every right to call 911 and request armed police officers come to their defense to stop the assault and arrest those attempting to commit those acts of violence.
I am now publicly predicting that, should SB 277 be signed into law, we will see a wave of California parents calling 911 to report their doctors while demanding the government press felony assault charges against medical personnel engaged in vaccine violence.
The sad thing is, I have no doubt that, should SB 277 pass (something that is still going to require a battle), there will be an antivaccinationist or two (or maybe even three) who will try what Adams suggests. My counter-prediction is that any police called for such a purpose will not take it seriously, to put it mildly. I can picture the 911 operator silently laughing and pointing at her headset, as if to say, "Get a load of this loon!" Even Adams seems to recognize that, predicting that the police won't arrest the doctor or nurse giving the vaccine, but still asserts that "parents will retain the right of CIVIL prosecution of those doctors for violating their civil rights." Yes, I'd love to see someone try that argument in front of a judge. The entertainment value would be enormous.
Meanwhile, the "not anti-vaccine" minion at the antivaccine crank blog Age of Autism, Ken Heckenlively, wonders when they'll "start shooting antivaxxers."
Coming back to the frequent clutching of pearls exhibited by antivaccinationists in response to being called "antivaccine," it's hard to take them seriously when, to them, seemingly vaccination is the Holocaust. It’s the Oklahoma City bombing. It’s Auschwitz (complete with Dr. Josef Mengele’s horrific experiments), before which antivaccinationists view themselves as much victims as Jews in Germany during the Nazi regime. It’s Stalin. It’s the Tuskegee syphilis experiment. It’s a tsunami washing away everything before it.
And it’s a "violation" (i.e., rape) too.
And now it's felonious assault, violence, an attack worthy of calling the police over. Adams might be what I like to colloquially call batshit crazy, but his rhetoric is useful because it tends to be the same as that of other antivaccinationists, just with the conspiracy mongering an crazy turned up to 11. If you look at others, you'll find echoes of the same sort of rhetoric. Rare is the case when I see anyone on the “antivaccine” side publicly call out rhetoric like this, even when someone like Mike Adams likens vaccines to the Holocaust, sexual assault, human trafficking, or felonious assault. It is worth repeating that the reason, I suspect, is because most antivaccinationists are at least sympathetic to such analogies but don’t use them publicly because they know how inflammatory and despicably ridiculous those not steeped in the false victimhood of the antivaccine cult find them. Perhaps next time I will provide more examples, this time from antivaccine physicians, some of whom we've met before. After all, even a seemingly "mainstream" (in the antivaccine movement) group like the Autism Media Channel refers to "vaccine violence."
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My card-carrying Dad is rolling in his grave. Awful. David "I like The Smiths I really do" Cameron has made Scottish independence almost a certainty and doesn't care if you leave the EU.
Topic. I am always surprised when anti-vaxxers have been to a developing country. Makes me realize how ignorant and privileged they truly are. Then again, it's not like I needed more evidence in this case particularly...
Herr Doktor, you disappoint me. You're supposed to post "but I told you to stay out of those places."
Before I forget, from Big J:
This is a classic.
Mephistopheles re 403 406
I take it from your non-response that your are accepting the validity of my last comment. Thanks for demonstrating what a rationally articulated debate should look like.
Herr Doktor, you disappoint me.
If it's any consolation, I disappoint myself.
This is a classic.
Detroit... Rockford... near enough for Government work, right?
@zebra, re #406,
But in respect to the issue at hand, vaccination or medical exemption as a requirement of attending public school, we're not talking about the government protecting you, zebra, from yourself, or any other person from himself. We are talking about the government taking some action to protect minors (not competent to consent to or refuse medical treatment) from ill-advised decisions of their guardians.
In other words, with respect to children, there is no case 1; the government is trying to protect others (children directly or indirectly affected) from the consequences of decisions made by adults.
In fairness to zebra, I was the one who introduced case 1 (the self interest argument). It is the weaker of the two with regard to government's interests, and I'd be ready to concede that the government's interest in protecting you from the consequences of your own actions should be less than in protecting the rest of society from you. I find it odd that it is also, in zebra's opinion, the more problematic argument if you argue strictly from a body autonomy perspective. Apparently an appeal to altruism is somehow less threatening than an appeal to self interest.
JGC
I get the hunch that you are a medical doctor or nurse practitioner. You are very rigid in your response which tells me you have been trained a certain way and this vitalism philosophy eludes you and is hard for you to comprehend.
Except, of course, when all too frequently we fail to be self-healing, and die or suffer chronic illness and injury instead.
What causes that JGC? answer toxins or deficiency A drug is not answer
Helianthus as for Paleo look it up !!
What you medical professional fail to understand is that FOOD is what is causing most of the heath problems in this country and FOOD is the only way to heal those problems. writing prescriptions will solve nothing. Dont you feel useless sometimes when you prescribe drugs?
My mother is 81 years old doesnt take drugs but takes a lot of vitamins and eats good. I dont need your peer review studies to know what vitamins do. They work
Paleo is considered an anti-inflammatory diet. Thats why its CRITICAL for patients suffering Auto-immune conditions like MS
By the way I put money where my mouth is. My son who is approaching 9 months old WILL NEVER get vaccinated. And guess what I have 100% complete confidence he is going to thrive. I dont buy into your philosophy of fear mongering that the human body requires vaccines, nor do most doctors outside of the pharmaceutical religion based on fraudulent peer review. There are 10's of 1000's unvaccinated kids kicking ass in the world. my son will be one of them.
He needs optimal nutrients like a Ferrari needs octane fuel. GET IT!
zebra:
How self-serving. Your point had already been dealt with. Antivaccinationists conflate the two, as you have already been notified. That you are now trying to go round in circles isn't our problem. Nor does it compel us to engage you on an already refuted point.
THEO, Native Americans had plenty of good nutrition. Why did so many of them die off from measles?
Mephistopheles, I explained that.
["In 1, the government is acting to “protect” me from myself.
In 2, the government is acting to “protect” others from me."]
We are talking about whether there is a rational basis to be concerned about the government infringing on your autonomy, whether with respect to your body or your decisions about your children.
In case 1, the threat is open-ended. The government could also decide that it is protecting you from yourself by forcing you to eat/serve broccoli, and not eat/serve meat, for example.
In case 2, there is no such threat.
What do you disagree with about what I said?
zebra, you forgot to take something into account: diseases spread. I suggest you seriously re-think your arguments based on that fact.
Poor Olivia Dahl, with her affluent parents, lovely homes, vegetable gardens. Shame that child wasn't better nourished. If only she'd had more nutrients.
I guess THEO is going to be disappointed:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/goatsandsoda/2015/05/07/404963436/scientists-c…
THEO your son is not your personal property. He'll likely make choices of his own. Some of those choices may not align with your worldview. Welcome to parenting.
zebra, we have dealt with this already.
In this case, there isn't.
1) Vaccination protects both the vaccinated and those around him/her. It's Case 2, not Case 1.
2) Insisting that a child who has no medical contraindications be vaccinated as a prerequisite to entering school does not violate parental autonomy. It's inconvenient, but a parent who wishes his/her to remain vaccine free can homeschool or go to a Waldorf school.
Your argument is invalid.
THEO,
Let's say that when your unvaccinated son is 18 he decides to take a few months out to travel around Asia or Africa. He will very likely have no immunity to measles, mumps, rubella, polio, pertussis, tetanus, hepatitis A, hepatitis B and various other diseases that he is likely to encounter.
Many of these diseases are extremely unpleasant and even life-threatening, particularly in adults. Almost 1% of adults suffer complications of measles such as encephalitis, impaired consciousness, behaviour changes, motor disturbances (including fits, involuntary movements, or paresis), pneumonia (or severe bronchitis), otitis media or deafness. Between 5% and 14% of adults with chickenpox develop lung problems, such as pneumonia. With mumps, 40% of adult males develop orchitis (painful swelling of the testicles), 15% develop meningitis and 5% suffer pancreatitis. If you think that what you believe is a healthy diet will prevent these complications you are very much mistaken.
What evidence do you have that would lead you to gamble your son's life on what you surely must realize are beliefs shared by only a tiny minority of people?
BTW I recommend you, and everyone else, read the article Lawrence linked to at #514. It seems that the immunosuppression measles causes lasts even longer than previously thought, reducing immunity to other diseases and greatly increasing mortality. Not giving your child MMR does him a great disservice.
"Let’s say that when your unvaccinated son is 18 he decides to take a few months out to travel around Asia or Africa. He will very likely have no immunity to measles, mumps, rubella, polio, pertussis, tetanus, hepatitis A, hepatitis B and various other diseases that he is likely to encounter." -- THEO's son will either not catch any of those diseases OR will fight them off through the amazeballs nutrients he ingested throughout his childhood.
Oh, the places THEO's son won't go... http://www.who.int/ith/ITH_country_list.pdf
Mephistopheles O'Brien@507
It doesn't make sense considering a commom AV complaint is "why should I endager my child to protect yours." In #392 I already quoted the awful Dr. Wolfson who may be the most striking example of this. Another one that sticks in my mind is Rhett Krawitt, the boy with leukemia who was in the news because his father was campaigning for his school to remove personal belief exemptions. This was about as pure "case 2" as it gets. The father was basically saying "do what you want with your child, so long as it doesn't endanger my child." And yet:
I get that it's difficult to comprehend that they can be so terrible and self centered but it has been pointed out enough times that I'm fairly certain zebra is just being deliberately obtuse (no surprise given his history).
Well, you don't have to go to any of those dirty places with brown people to get tetanus, you can get that in your garden. So, I guess, like the thing that shall not be mentioned has advocated, THEOspawn will stay on the sidewalk, for ever and ever.
Or maybe a hamster ball.
Let's say Theo's unvaccinated son gets drafted (since I don't know where Theo lives, that's always a possibility). At his induction physical Theo's son will begin cursing Theo's failure to save him from getting all those shots.
@Theo
I wanted you own definition, dude (or lass). Just to see if you know what you are talking about.
I guess my conclusion shall be "you know nothing".
@THEO
I'm still working on the response to the last thing you said to me, but in the meantime, here 's my comment on something more recent you said:
How oddly specific. Why only toxins and not all poisons? What is special about toxins that makes it so that the self-healing self-healer can't self-heal from them even though it can self-heal from anything else if it has the right building blocks?
So, since arsenic is not a toxin but is poisonous, if someone gets killed by it, they must have some deficiency, since that's the only other option. What is the nutrient that they are deficient in, and how much do you have to date in order to survive ingestion of a large quantity of arsenic? More practically, what nutrients and how much of them do I have to take to self-heal from decapitation? Because that would be really cool to demonstrate to friends at parties.
Not even antidotes to toxins?
So let's see. Worldwide, the most common diseases by incidence are diarrhea, lower respiratory infection, malaria, measles, pertussis, malignant neoplasm, dengue, stroke, tuberculosis, congestive heart failure, and AIDS. What are the FOODS that cause each of these? You can skip any you're unsure about and I'll just assume you just don't know for those.
Watching you deal with a flat tire must be fun. I imagine you pull the nail out of the tire and then go and puncture the other tires with it. After all, you have to solve a problem with whatever caused it. There is no other way.
Why does your son's vital force even bother with this whole nutrients thing anyway? It seems like it only gets in the way. Can't it vitally force things without . . . stuff?
Leaving Theo's issues for a moment, did anyone notice what came out of Texas yesterday in the case of Wakefield vs Deer et cie?
TO THE 250TH DISTRICT COURT OF TRAVIS COUNTY, GREETINGS "This is an appeal from the judgment signed by the trial court on August 3, 2012. Having reviewed the record and the parties’ arguments, the Court holds that there was no reversible error in the trial court’s judgment. Therefore, the Court affirms the trial court’s judgment. The appellant shall pay all costs relating to this appeal, both in this Court and the court below."
Ruled by Judge Jeff Rose.
My son who is approaching 9 months old WILL NEVER get vaccinated.
Sounds like THEO intends to kill his son before he's old enough to opt for vaccinations himself. Perhaps we should inform the authorities.
a whole foods diet like PALEO?
THEO has his own special Paleo diet which centres on supplement pills... as was the original caveman way.
He needs optimal nutrients like a Ferrari needs octane fuel
"Octane fuel"? ORLY?
zebra, @#504
I take it from your non-response that your are accepting the validity of my comments at #414, #415, #417, and #419, all of which met the specs you requested at #398.
Thanks for the multiple concessions.
^^
"you are accepting," I mean.
Apologies for the typo.
I feel that I should remember the line item for the indigent fee on the cost breakdown. It's page 3 of the mandate, here.
Time has run out for him to sue Emily Willingham, as well. Oh, how humiliating.
^ Here, that is.
What is that fee for? (Fo fum.)
I mean....I assume he filed to proceed in forma...Wait. No, I don't. I'm confused. What is that fee for?
Also, is it me, or does Wakefield's argument about why special appearances were waived make so little sense that they sound like they were collaboratively written during a conference call made on Dixie-Cup telephones by a group of a people who weren't native English speakers while extremely drunk?
It was kind of hard to follow, I thought..
I really have no idea at this point. DiNovo Price is Parrish, his attorney. Perhaps he had an outstanding balance when they cut him loose.
^ Eh, that doesn't make sense, assuming they're time-ordered.
According to this study measles-vaccination seems to protect against a lot more, than just measles. Alas I can only read the abstract.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/348/6235/694.short
But I believe that if the government were to cite it, zebra's entire existence would be at its mercy.
Could be I'm missing something, though.
zebra,
Forgive me, I've been to busy to reply.
You have introduced a new principle unrelated to body autonomy - that government's role should not be to protect you from your own actions. No such principle is generally accepted, and I'll bet you can think of multiple examples in the fields of occupational safety and health, vehicular travel, and various laws regarding alcohol. To date these have not put your entire existence at its mercy, the slope has not slipped, and it is not rational to consider such actions as a class as a threat.
You also misconstrue the point of vaccination which is not to protect you from yourself, but to protect you from others. In this case, the "others" are those people you come in contact with who are contagious with a vaccine preventable disease.
You may ask whether the government can make you take an action to protect yourself from others. The answer, of course, is yes. The most obvious example would be screenings at the airport. A less obvious one is requiring you to pay taxes to provide a police force and legal system - how fair is it that you, as a law abiding citizen, have to pay your money so that your government can protect you from criminals?
Now, I suppose that concept could, in theory, be abused. If someone were to threaten you with a knife, a particularly fast runner would have a better chance of escaping unhurt and un-robbed than someone in bad physical condition. An extension of the concept that the government can require you to take actions to help protect you from others might well be to require, say, physical education in schools.
@THEO
Just in case others didn't make this clear, there is no evidence for any of this. There are, to date, no life processes that have been observed that cannot be adequately explained without resorting to an unknown, unobserved "someone or some intelligent energy source or some non-material force or inborn power". None.
If you ever find either something that requires such a "someone or some intelligent energy source or some non-material force or inborn power" or you find some evidence for same, please share.
You also misconstrue the point of vaccination which is not to protect you from yourself, but to protect you from others. In this case, the “others” are those people you come in contact with who are contagious with a vaccine preventable disease.
You may ask whether the government can make you take an action to protect yourself from others.
This is not the basis for the states' authority to impose school vaccination requirements in any event, even considering Prince v. Massachusetts.
^ Gah, I typed "<blockquotw>."
THEO’s lapsing into something resembling the English of a native speaker is, of course, diagnostic of a cut and paste.
Yep, if I wanted to argue about the gaping gibbering stupidity of "intelligent energy source" or "some non-material force' or "inborn power", I would go directly to the source at Genesis Chiropractic, and argue with the organ-grinder.
I guess I've always hazily figured that the basis for that was we, the people, having ordained and established the constitution of the United States in order to promote the general welfare.
Is it, more or less?
The Preamble does not grant substantive power to the state (and the Fourteenth Amendment hadn't been incorporated at the time of Jacobson). Rather, the states have an intrinsic* interest in protecting public health (and safety) and, therefore, the ability to exercise their police power to this end so long as they do not infringe upon the rights secured by the Constitution.
* I don't think the "compelling interest" test showed up until the 1950s, but I haven't looked particularly hard.
Mephistopheles,
I expressed my appreciation for your #403 because it was what I think of as serious debate-- focused on the point with which you were disagreeing, and making a clear, concise, statement of your position-- something I had to think about to counter. But now you are going back to the kitchen-sink disorganized and distracting norm of this blog.
So, to plagiarize you a bit, I do not choose to discuss anything but the proposition as stated.
So, is case 1 a rational starting point for a slippery slope argument, while case 2 is not?
I'm not saying whether the slippery slope arguments are correct, I'm not saying whether government protecting you from yourself is good or bad, I'm not saying anything about what the actual claim of the government is or isn't, and so on.
Now, I honored your request not to discuss the Snickers analogy, and if you want to discuss this, please stick to the basic question.
The short answer:
Case 1 is not an attempt to save you from yourself. If it were, it might be a rational starting point for a slippery slope argument.
Slippery slope arguments are often regarded as fallacious unless there's some evidence that the steps between points of the slope will occur.
Please tell me in what way this is not clear, concise, or focused on the argument:
Because it seems to me that disagreeing with your argument that it's not unreasonable for her to be concerned about a threat to her parental autonomy on the grounds that a moment's reflection would be enough to show a rational person that it wasn't being impinged upon is the very definition of clear, concise, and focused.
Otherwise, thanks once again for the multiple concessions.
Mephistopheles,
1) "Case 1 is not attempt to save you from yourself."
Here's what you said:
Case 1 sounds exactly like the government wants to make you vaccinate in order to get the benefit, even though you don't want to. Sounds like protecting you from your own bad decisions to me.
Case 1 is an attempt to protect you from the actions of others and from the environment. This is not dissimilar to the government saying you shouldn't walk on railroad tracks.
That, frankly, is the difference between your Snickers example and this one. You stated
Note that the discussion hinges only on the presence of Snickers bars. It does not rely on the presence of some other condition in the environment or actions by the other children.
Digression, which you are free to ignore: given lunchroom dynamics it may well be that the child never actually eats all three Snickers bars. The child may well trade them for a sandwich, a pack of peanuts, and fruit. The child may well brush his/her teeth following eating the Snickers bar, which would at least partially negate the "rot your teeth" argument (and possibly mitigate argument 2 as well).
Mephistopheles,
"Case 1 is an attempt to protect you from the actions of others and from the environment....
....This is not dissimilar to the government saying you shouldn’t walk on railroad tracks."
That makes no sense at all. If the government is saying I shouldn't walk on railroad tracks, the government is protecting me from my bad decision to walk on railroad tracks. Case 1.
What do others have to do with it?
If the justification is to protect public health, that's case 2. You seem to be losing track of your own argument.
No... the government is protecting the railroad, the insurance companies, and the local EMS units from your bad decision. You'll be dead and safe out of it.
The entire digression is pointless, and the railroad prong particulary so: the only laws in this respect are those of trespass.
Z. is perseverating solely because he sniffs "scoring a point." It's a fantastically stupid one, because vaccine requirements are not predicated on parens patriae, which itself triggers due process requirements.
This has played out exactly like the last two appearances: he knows nothing whatever about the antivaccine crowd but figured he'd pop in to Provide The Solution anyway, because First Principles!!! Unfortunately, it was prima facie even worse than the status quo (as highlighted by the silent emendation to include "sans children") and logistically preposterous – to the point of offering more reason to be paranoid about privacy – so merey started jabbering about his personal autonomy ("you are simply trying to go back to your already refuted claim that I was talking about vaccination") and is now reduced to insisting that a counterfactual scenario provides a rational basis for a slippery slope argument.
^ "so he merely"
@#549 --
In itself, your bad decision can't hurt you and/or anybody and/or anything else. A train running you over, on the other hand, might do all three.
The latter is what keeping you off the tracks protects you (and/or others) from, therefore. .
I mean, per the example, the government is not saying you shouldn't decide to walk on railroad tracks. It's just saying you shouldn't do it.
Again, it's the generally minor crime of trespass. There do exist more salient intrusions upon AUTONO-MEEE!
For example, Ohio Rev. Code § 4511.47. Whatcha ya gonna do if I carry a white cane and wear sunglasses?
What next, brightly colored canes?
^ Eh, screw it, I'll try to fix that one, because the due respect of sophomorism is at stake.
-----
Again, it's the generally minor crime of trespass. There do exist more salient intrusions upon AUTONO-MEEE!
For example, Ohio Rev. Code § 4511.47. Whatcha ya gonna do if I carry a white cane and wear sunglasses?
What next, brightly colored canes?
Nope, the slightest understanding of the legal basis is the "kitchen-sink disorganized and distracting norm of this blog," warranting an embarrassingly childish demonstration of asshurt.
NobRed - are you still playing smokescreen games. The thread is about the tired old chestnut of vaccination pro anti.
We all know that the 'evidence' for vaccination is, as the ex editor of the British Medical Journal has said, has an evidence base stance - peer reviewed medical research - that is effectively nonsense and a sacred cow ready for slaughter.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientific-peer-reviews-are-a…
Yes we know that some people do actually believe in the Resurrection and chocolate eggs but they aren't really scientists. I am proudly antivaccination because there isn't any evidence for its efficacy. It is the logical position to take. I will not base my stance on the study of bovine entrails. You are welcome to debate the true date of Easter as long as you like. Just use your own tissues.....................
johnny,
"We all know that [...], <a href="">as the ex editor of the British Medical Journal has said," (FTFY):
"Three million children die every year in poor countries from diseases that can be prevented by vaccination." Krusty Krab
So citation needed. If it's one of those peer reviewed medical comics - it isn't worth the paper it is written on.
Here is what the CDC say about deaths from poor sanitation. It leaves your Kindergarten stat in the blocks
Disease & Death
An estimated 801,000 children younger than 5 years of age perish from diarrhea each year, mostly in developing countries. This amounts to 11% of the 7.6 million deaths of children under the age of five and means that about 2,200 children are dying every day as a result of diarrheal diseases 4.
Unsafe drinking water, inadequate availability of water for hygiene, and lack of access to sanitation together contribute to about 88% of deaths from diarrheal diseases 1.
Worldwide, millions of people are infected with neglected tropical diseases (NTDs), many of which are water and/or hygiene-related, such as Guinea Worm Disease, Buruli Ulcer, Trachoma, and Schistosomiasis. These diseases are most often found in places with unsafe drinking water, poor sanitation, and insufficient hygiene practices 8, 9.
Worldwide, soil-transmitted helminths infect more than one billion people due to a lack of adequate sanitation 10.
Guinea Worm Disease (GWD) is an extremely painful parasitic infection spread through contaminated drinking water. GWD is characterized by spaghetti-like worms up to 1 meter in length slowly emerging from the human body through blisters on the skin anywhere on the body but usually on the lower legs or lower arms. Infection affects poor communities in remote parts of Africa that do not have safe water to drink. In 2012, 542 cases of Guinea Worm Disease were reported. Most of those cases were from Sudan (96%) 11.
Trachoma is the world’s leading cause of preventable blindness and results from poor hygiene and sanitation. Approximately 41 million people suffer from active trachoma and nearly 10 million people are visually impaired or irreversibly blind as a result of trachoma 12. Trachoma infection can be prevented through increased facial cleanliness with soap and clean water, and improved sanitation.
Prevention
Water, sanitation and hygiene has the potential to prevent at least 9.1% of the global disease burden and 6.3% of all deaths 1.The impact of clean water technologies on public health in the U.S. is estimated to have had a rate of return of 23 to 1 for investments in water filtration and chlorination during the first half of the 20th century 5.
Water and sanitation interventions are cost effective across all world regions. These interventions were demonstrated to produce economic benefits ranging from US$ 5 to US$ 46 per US$ 1 invested 6.
Improved water sources reduce diarrhea morbidity by 21%; improved sanitation reduces diarrhea morbidity by 37.5%; and the simple act of washing hands at critical times can reduce the number of diarrhea cases by as much as 35%. Improvement of drinking-water quality, such as point-of-use disinfection, would lead to a 45% reduction of diarrhea episodes 7.
In order to meet the United Nations' Millennium Development Goal 13 to halve the proportion of people without sustainable access to improved drinking water and basic sanitation by 2015:
An estimated 784 million people will need to gain access to an improved water source.
o An estimated 173 million people on average per year will need to begin using improved sanitation facilities (accounting for expected population growth) 2.
Even if the United Nations' Millennium Development Goal 13 for improved drinking water and basic sanitation is reached by 2015, it will still leave:
An estimated 790 million people (11% of the world’s population) without access to an improved water supply.
An estimated 1.8 billion people (25% of the world’s population) without access to adequate sanitation 15.
* An improved water source is defined as water that is supplied through a household connection, public standpipe, borehole well, protected dug well, protected spring, or rainwater collection.
Did you notice - VACCINATION NOT MENTIONED ONCE!!!!!
It also doesn't mention car crashes even once. Does that make standing in the highway safe.
It's a page on water sanitation so vaccination isn't an appropriate topic.
Vaccination has it's place but so does public health initiatives like clean water as there are lot of diseases out there, and probably far more than we know will depress your immunity for a few months to a few years rather than being designed to make humans healthier in all ways.
johnny,
I linked to the source you dingbat; it's a quote from your hero Richard Smith.
Those "Walk" and "Don't Walk" signs at intersections, for example. I mean, first they deem me to be potentially non-ambulatory, a priori. Then they deem me to be potentially ambulatory, a priori. It's very invasive.
Besides, it's my right to decide when and how I cross the street, dammit.
Okay, anyone else see the irony of johnny using the CDC as proof of one thing, but not another? How about using PubMed articles to support his position, while at the same time saying all PubMed published research is fraudulent?
Cognitive-dissonance much?
Lower-case johnny, vaccine syringes are not filled with pixie dust dissolved in water from the Holy Grail. They're not magic, and nobody has ever argued that proper vaccination would save everybody from all the diseases and remove them from need of water and sanitation, because that's a really stupid thing to argue. Do you think that you're scoring a point against pro-vaccinators by rebutting stupid arguments that nobody makes while ignoring all rebuttals to your own generally-false-yet-bulldoggishly-reiterated claims?
[reads through all 559 comments]
Yes... yes, you do. Wow.
I took part in FIRST Robotics in high school. One year, my group tried to assemble a number of varied and most auncient pieces of leftover wood into a simulacrum of the "goal" so that we could practice scoring once our robot was complete. All went well until we laid the final piece over the top and tried to attach it, only to find that nothing could penetrate that sap-forsaken chunk of wood. It turned aside all nails and even melted the tips of two drill bits without showing a mark on its dully gleaming surface before we turned to duct tape as our last hope.
A friend of mine reverently named that omnipotent old two-by-four "The God Wood," and I was reminded of it by certain commenters on this thread, on whose beliefs no information or argument can leave an impression. Nonetheless, I always learn things from the commenters who take the time and energy to push back, when I have the wherewithal to follow a thread, so thank you to all here except the obvious few. Cheers.
This would imply that Philip Hills had any appreciable cognitive equipment to begin with.
Perhaps you should come to the Netherlands. I often seem to be the only one waiting, if the sign says don't walk.
\
Theo, your evidence that this protocol is more effective as a treatment for arthritis than Enbrel would be what, exactly? Be specific.
Which diseases, and what evidence demonstrates they actually can be reversed with diets supplements and lifestyle changes? Again, be specific.
No, they don’t. Some multi-dose preparations may contain thimerosal as a preservative but that’s not at all the same thing, any more than table salt is metallic sodium or gaseous chlorine.
In that there’s no evidence that they’re inappropriately safe, you mean? I agree.
What long term implications, and what evidence indicates these implications are associated with the consumption of GMO foods? Be specific. The ciatation you provided offers none (did you fail to note it addresses glyphosate exposure in farmworkers applying it to crops, not as a result of dietary exposure?)
FTFY.
What makes the citation ‘kapooti’? Be specific. I mean, it’s something other than the fact it doesn’t support your preferred conclusions re: the utility of fiber supplementation—right?
Citations needed, Theo: what diseases is this the root causes of?
What evidence demonstrates that because the soil does not contain the nutrients it did 100 years ago, crops grown in that soil do not supply the nutrients they did 100 years ago, and as a consequence the majority of people today are nutritionally deficient?
Johhny is schooling you people again on water and sanitation Thank your plumber not your doctor. DUH
herr doktor bimler
Sounds like THEO intends to kill his son before he’s old enough to opt for vaccinations himself. Perhaps we should inform the authorities.
Oh Really? Sorry I just dont believe the WOO you have been spoon fed. The human body IS the POWER not the drug or vaccine. Feed the body optimally and the immune system will perform. Your sketchy vaccine interventions are not necessary.
Only rigidly trained medical professionals believe what you stated. Your the same ignorant doctors who dont understand the importance of the micro-biome and the immune system when you overuse antibiotics and kill good bacteria, you never bother to ask patients what their diet contains completely overlooking the food that sustains the immune system. Dairy products are a leading cause of many health problems and inflammation in children. Instead of getting to the cause you pre programmed robots go right for the symptoms. Installing tubes in the ears for chronic ear infections, cutting tonsils out for strep throat, cutting out the appendix for appendicitis.
in 2012 researchers discovered the tonsil…is a ‘factory’ for immune cells” – specifically, for T-cells. T-cells are vital for fighting viruses and cancers caused by viruses (like lymphoma or sarcoma) and T-cells play a role in auto-immune diseases”
http://www.jci.org/articles/view/46125
"The appendix, they said, is a safe haven where good bacteria could hang out until they were needed to repopulate the gut after a nasty case of diarrhea, for example."
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090820175901.htm
Screw it lets cut out these 2 organs out since we don't know what they do. Where did these arrogant ideas come from? Certainly not from our understanding of the human anatomy, immune system or scientific studies.
We need the tonsil, we need the appendix both are important parts of the immune system. But wait there is more. The same medical arrogance and authority that thinks it knows how to protect the body from diseases by using vaccines is the same authority that doesn’t understand the importance of the micro biome, tonsil and appendix in the immune system? How can we trust you? Actually GFY
CHECK F*-++**NG MATE
YOU LOSE!
You are losing faster much faster than you realize.There is another health paradigm shifting right under your feet. Based on Vitalism, Life Force, Holism as my Mother calls it.
Stay away from my family and my son with your Chemical quackery and scalpels. Modern medicine and pharma based trained MD's are dangerous to your health. Your entire reductionism premise is flawed you are losing credibility every year.
KREBBY PANTS if my son wants to get jabbed when he is an adult while traveling abroad that will be his decision but by then the science of vaccines and the dangers will have been fully exposed and a completely new paradigm will be underway. its unsustainable we are at the very early stages of a paradigm shift in health care that will take decades to be fully accepted and embraced.
What evidence do you have that would lead you to gamble your son’s life on what you surely must realize are beliefs shared by only a tiny minority of people? Vitalism is my premise and proof! without food, water and oxygen you die. How can we OPTIMIZE all 3 factors that of your life force to live abundantly and protect health. The answer does not include vaccines and drugs. Answer is found here See Mark Hyman Functional medicine. essentially based on the premise of Vtialism. All life is based on that premise. Epi-genetics is proving this conclusively. Its over ok? You lose
Its sad you doctors have no faith in the human body and think it ALWAYS needs your god-damn toxic chemical intervention…. .arrogant a-holes!
@Theo - my appendix was black, 5" long & gangrenous when it was finally removed.....another 24 hours & I would have been dead.
Doesn't really sound like it was okay to me.
Live by the cut and paste, die by the cut and paste.
Try thinking rather than THEOnking.
Funny how every single MD I've ever seen has asked about my diet, including psychiatrists.
Simple facts of biology are proof of vitalism? News to me.
Are you generally in the habit of including others in your own ill-defined "we"? It says a lot about you, really.
THEO, couple of things:
The thymus is the usual organ involved in synthesizing T-cells. This study is simply providing evidence that tonsils MAY have a role in supplementing T-cell supply if the thymus fails or is excised (a pretty rare situation). Besides, tonsillectomy is much rarer than it was 50 years ago and is done for pretty specific indications.
Appendicitis is a lethal condition if untreated. All this stuff about how it "repopulates the gut" after enteric infections is fascinating, however, I don't believe any studies have shown any health problems attributable to the absence of an appendix. So what would you do if one of your unfortunate children comes down with acute appendicitis? As her appendix ruptures, and those "good" bacteria spread through her abdomen and into her blood stream, are you going to shout at the surgeon "But she NEEDS that!" when appendicectomy is recommended?
It's the Royal We, of course.
It's good to be da King, right, THEO?
@TBruce - exactly....it isn't like surgeons are out there taking out appendix & tonsils willy-nilly.....
I.e., people who actually possess training and experience which enables them to understand and evaluate the evidence informing vaccine safety and efficacy. Why do you say that as if it were a bad thing??
What exactly does one "feed the body" of a patient who has developed AIDS as the result of HIV infection which will result ins his to "inmmune system [sic]" performing optimally, Theo? Be specific.
Theo, your evidence that the immune systems of people who have had tonsillectomies and/or appendectomy as uniformly less capable of responding when exposed to infectious diseases than people who have not would be--what, exactly? Be specific.
What food do you feed someone who has developed acute appendicitis which will lead to better outcomes than emergnecy appendectomy? Be specific.
Always happens when I trot out a '[sic]'...
THEO:
If you really care about immune competence in children, you might want to check this out:
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-measles-vaccine-protects-again…
It's written by none other than Orac's "special friend".
THEO, the natives of Hawaii had plenty of good food and water. Why were they nearly driven to extinction by measles? If you cannot answer this question, then your premise is utterly invalid.
"KREBBY PANTS if my son wants to get jabbed when he is an adult while traveling abroad that will be his decision but by then the science of vaccines and the dangers will have been fully exposed and a completely new paradigm will be underway."
Your privilege makes me want to puke. Let's take measles/ Yes, let's invent a COMPLETELY NEW PARADIGM to eradicate a disease with NO ANIMAL RESERVOIR instead of RELYING ON THE ONE THAT IS ALREADY EXTREMELY EFFICACIOUS in order to PREVENT AN AVERAGE OF 400 DEATHS A DAY in populations who frequently WALK FOR MILES and LINE UP FOR HOURS because they'd rather not suffer and possibly DIE from a PREVENTABLE DISEASE that has within recent memory HARMED OR KILLED their friends and family.
Puke, your privilege, it makes me want to PUKE.
And yeah, your son, Theo, he's an infant? And let's say during his gap year he decides to travel to the beaches in Accra, like so many Euro kids do. Lovely beaches, friendly people, cheap as chips for late teens and twenties. Good luck with him getting in without proof of yellow fever immunization. And no, there won't be some COMPLETELY NEW PARADIGM in 17 years that will allow your OH SO SPESHUL SNOFLAKE to bypass that requirement.
I think we've already established that THEO doesn't have any moral qualms about "sacrificing" his son on the altar of vitalism.
Hey THEO, what's the ugliest part of your body?
To follow up on what Delphine wrote:
in the past 15 months or so, my cousin, a graduate student in architecture, got a notice that in several weeks her design group ( which is what they call them) were being shipped off to Bangladesh in order to design/ work on a new water system that was being funded by an NGO- completing said project was a prerequisite for graduation.
So she went. Many vaccines were involved.
Also, THEO, don't brag about victories that you haven't won. James Buchanan's last words were reportedly "History will vindicate my memory."
Which foods? How do you know? How do you measure how well such foods sustain the immune system? What is the evidence that particular foods sustain the immune system, and what is the quality of that evidence?
Please provide a link to the peer reviewed, replicated, high quality studies showing the existence of a Life Force.
Thanks.
you never bother to ask patients what their diet contains
Theo hasn't been to a doctor EVAR, I take it. My APN is on my ass all the time about my diet.
JGC for Arthritis take Glucosamine (as HCI), MSM and white willow bark. cured no side effects. in harmony with the body.
You don’t need a drug for arthritis.
Methylsulfonylmethane? Theo's guiding principle for dividing synthetic chemicals into "drug" versus "non-drug" is whether it's being sold by the supplement industry.
Holism as my Mother calls it
Stupidity runs in the family.
"Please provide a link to the peer reviewed, replicated, high quality studies showing the existence of a Life Force." mesteppedincrap
You obviously are not up to speed oh slippery one - the world of medical peer review is falling around our ears - did you not read what the ex editor of the British medical journal said about medical peer review old boy?
Most of it is complete nonsense - it is the pizza you pay for. Lack of publication in medical peer review about vital process is indeed validation of vitlalism.
I suppose you believe in the big bang and all that genetic claptrap - keep posting - like the laughing
"Which foods? How do you know? How do you measure how well such foods sustain the immune system? What is the evidence that particular foods sustain the immune system, and what is the quality of that evidence?" mesteppedinbiggershit
Well coca cola and pizza isn't vital food, nor are twinkies - do you really need a study to demonstrate that living off highly processed food is gonna make you sick?
Oh you are a 'proper doctor' right, of course, I should have worked that out by the dimbutnice level of question.
raw fruit and veg are good......................
"Your privilege makes me want to puke. Let’s take measles/ Yes, let’s invent a COMPLETELY NEW PARADIGM to eradicate a disease with NO ANIMAL RESERVOIR instead of RELYING ON THE ONE THAT IS ALREADY EXTREMELY EFFICACIOUS in order to PREVENT AN AVERAGE OF 400 DEATHS A DAY in populations who frequently WALK FOR MILES and LINE UP FOR HOURS because they’d rather not suffer and possibly DIE from a PREVENTABLE DISEASE that has within recent memory HARMED OR KILLED their friends and family. Puke, your privilege, it makes me want to PUKE." the delphie one
What a pile of anecdotal tosh. You cannot include measles deaths from 3rd world countries with 1st world as part of the same cohort for you appeal to emotion. 3rd world measles deaths are about malnutrition and poor sanitation. In the recent bullshit Disney outbreak in America there was not one recorded death - totally disproportionate scare mongering. What makes me puke and hose brown stuff simultaneously is a jerked up medic reading the riot act from a piece of toilet paper given to you as a an undergrad.
medical peer review is dead, you can't quote it as anything else but a stinking anecdote. Hang your head in shame - loser
Back in moderation for quoting the fartwits on this thread who are pro poison. Looks like we are winding them up Theo, it is like shouting 'god is dead' in a catacomb.
I tried shouting "God is dead" in a catacomb once. Didn't even get good echoes. However, someone did shush me.
I don't "believe in" the big bang, but there is substantial physical evidence that can only be explained with the big bang model. As to "all that genetic claptrap", you'll have to be more specific.
If you don't like peer review, please provide any evidence whatsoever that Life Force exists or is necessary to explain an observation.
From our theologist
No side effect?
The active component of willow bark, Salicin, is known to occasionally upset our digestive system and in high dose to favor stomach ulcers.
@Helianthus #594
Those of us who cannot take NSAIDS would also suffer pain, bleeding and possibly death, and if the bleeding didn't kill me, the kidney failure (chronic kidney disease here) would. But, I'm probably wrong, because it's "natural."
Despite his liking to play Catholic dress-up, Phildo seems to be remarkably out of step with the Vatican.
@johnny
FTFY.
Look, if being in moderation bothers you so much, why don't you remove one of the letters from your keyboard that is part of your favorite automoderation trigger word? I suggest H, but I, T, and S are also options.
@THEO
Schooling? Didn't you notice that according to johnny's numbers, vaccine-preventable diseases kill four times as many children as sanitation-preventable ones? I'm pretty sure everyone else did.
That means that you should thank your doctor at least four times more than your plumber.
Z
I am still enjoying the spectacle of Theo extolling the advantages of (a) eating only foods available to cavemen, the all-natural Paleo diet*, and (b) gulping down pill-bottle-fuls of synthetic chemicals like MSM until one rattles.
He also bangs on about the "building blocks of life", meaning perhaps that the diet must be further augmented by eating Lego.
* Or being Theo, the PALEO diet.
Philip Hills seems to be remarkably in step here
I can't say the same about the cinematographer.
I know I've already played what about the real world? with Z.'s solemn corpus, but the first comment on Gamondes' Capitulum VII is a standout:
"[E]veryone is treated equally, and it is a community activity."
("Results might be interesting; we [sic] could do a study on compliance." [Meaning of difference from noncompliance unspecified.])
^ "VIII"
I'm waiting for him to replace two washers. I doubt that anyone would trust a plumber with the stack proper.
In other news, D. medinensis eradication has had bugger all to do with plumbing.
The human body IS the POWER not the drug or vaccine. Feed the body optimally and the immune system will perform.
That makes no sense. What happen if food is drug? what happen if herbal is drug?
Installing tubes in the ears for chronic ear infections, cutting tonsils out for strep throat, cutting out the appendix for appendicitis.
Yes. Tubes work. Tonsil, don't know but a number of peoples including your's truly (myself...) got their removed without any issues. Appendix; mine tried to kill me before getting removed. Did you know that having a too strong immune system can kill you in a frigg*n h*ll of a heartbeat? I do know that from personal experience (no citation because I don't need any for you not disregard my experience). Of course, I could have kept my appendix but then, does it make a difference in my daily living? you be the judge :)
We need the tonsil, we need the appendix both are important parts of the immune system.
Ok, do tell me why I live successfully without any of them?
arrogant a-holes!
projection here?
Al
my appendix was black, 5″ long & gangrenous when it was finally removed…..another 24 hours & I would have been dead.
Don't know about mine's colour but they had to cut wide open (lap chole not possible) because my powerful immune system caused it to burst and throw its content into the right & left upper quadrant of the abdomen and the moment is was undergoing surgery was 36 hours after I really noticed something was wrong. and that moment something was wrong was noticed 9 day after very minor pain to the lower right quadrant.
I don't feel pain. go figure :)
Al
Forgot,
Powerful immune system without having the benefit of a tonsil present :)
Al
The homeless guy I fed the other day seemed to think otherwise.
The homeless guy I fed the other day seemed to think otherwise.
I could echo that with the homeless inuit guy I regularly feed with 5 guy's burgers and beer :)
I've even recruited him to work on a biochemistry degree at my alma mater to learn how to make beer and then, work for me to handle the production of beer for 2 establishment for now (potentially 500L of beer per week) going on to 20+ establishment next year (10 00L of beer per week minimum).
Al
correction, 10 000L of beer per week next year.
Al
Just to add to the others' rebuttals of THEO's points @569.
My sister had to have her tonsils removed. They had died and, instead of being preventers of infection, they became hosts and incubators to infection. Prior to her tonsillectomy, she suffered wheezing to the point where she needed a Ventolin inhaler and was at times quite sickly. Afterwards, no inhaler, no wheezing, and her general health improved by a fair amount.
@Alain - the surgeon figured it had been going bad for quite some time (I had stomach issues for a while, but chocked it up to stress) - I also get migraines, so my pain threshold is incredibly high (as I can continue to function when most people would be cowering in bed).
My small intestine had actually wrapped itself around the appendix to keep it isolated from the rest of my body. At the time, it was impossible for me to gain weight - I could eat entire pizzas and was still 125 lbs. I figured out, after the fact, that my body was burning itself up to stave off infection.
When the appendix finally ruptured, it was pretty bad....though the fact that it wasn't where the doctors expected it would be, because of the wrapping of the small intestine, meant that I wasted a trip to the ER & a misdiagnosis of food poisoning.
Fun times, let me tell you.
I am not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV.
Yes, please. And by the way, that is not a proper answer to the question, "Which foods? How do you know? How do you measure how well such foods sustain the immune system? What is the evidence that particular foods sustain the immune system, and what is the quality of that evidence?"
I hope you'll understand that I don't take unsubstantiated diet advice from random people on the internet, even those who aren't osteopaths in Essex. If you're going to say that particular foods sustain the immune systems - which, how much, and how do you know?
Thanks!
the soil does not contain the nutrients it did 100 years ago, your body is deficient in lots of nutrients.
Me, I was a farm-boy once. I love hearing from inner-city eedjits about The Soil.
Well, for tuberculosis we can actually thanks Dr Pasteur. Sterilizing milk neatly cut the propagation of mycobacteria from cows to humans.
Plus, it allowed a steady supply of clean milk to reach the cities' inhabitants. In my country, at the turn of the 20th century, free distribution of milk in schools provided to children a much-needed source of calcium, an important "building block of life", I believe someone said.
For diseases spread through waste water, a better sewer system did help. Same with food poisoning and freezers.
Although, with diseases like measles, polio, we hit a snag. The advantages of cleaner water/food were offset by urban conditions: when plenty of people are living in enclosed spaces, a lot of germs were happy to spread by close contact rather than through circuitous routes like waste water. A plumber can't do much to protect you from the germs brought by people you are sharing the pool with.
Especially germs who were already airborne specialists.
@THEO
So does dairy cause diarrhea, lower respiratory infection, malaria, measles, pertussis, malignant neoplasm, dengue, stroke, tuberculosis, congestive heart failure and AIDS, or should I assume that you don't know which FOODS cause those diseases?
Having the same thing be both your premise and your proof is the definition of the logical fallacy of Begging the Question. Your answer is neither as clever nor as original as you thought.
Proof by blatant assertion, I see.
How so? The epigenome is certainly affected by current conditions (including food). How does it prove vitalism conclusively?
THEO's starting to sound familiar. I think this is the same person who made the mistake of bragging about all the money she made selling supplements, unaware that the concept of "conflict of interest" applied to her as well.
@Gray Falcon:
You mean the one that also had a young child they were willing to sacrifice for science?
@justthestats:
The same. The worst part was that she didn't seem to have any idea how vile her idea was.
"I'm not anti-orange! I'm pro-apple."
@ohnny dude you crack me up thats is some entertaining writing.
JGC What exactly does one “feed the body” of a patient who has developed AIDS as the result of HIV infection which will result ins his to “inmmune system [sic]” performing optimally, Theo? Be specific.
Here is the best answer to vitalism and all of your questions. This is the paradigm I am talking about that is coming your way to topple the pharmaceutical industry and medical establishment and usher in a new paradigm. This is how you avoid appendicitis. prevent cancer, boost the immune system etc. This is how you optimize your body.
The most powerful tool you have to change your brain and your health is your fork. Food is not just calories or energy. Food contains information that talks to your genes, turning them on or off and affecting their function moment to moment.
Food is the fastest acting and most powerful medicine you can take to change your life. We call this nutrigenomics. Think of your genes as the software that runs everything in your body. Just like your computer software, your genes only do what you instruct them to do with the stroke of your keyboard.
The foods you eat are the keystrokes that send messages to your genes telling them what to do—creating health or disease.
http://drhyman.com/blog/2015/05/09/skip-the-pharmacy-and-hit-your-farma…
And for good measure
Mexico halts some vaccinations after 2 children die, 29 are hospitalized
http://www.latimes.com/world/mexico-americas/la-fg-mexico-vaccines-2015…
By the way I have personally helped change the minds of 3 friends not to vaccinate their babies. Guess what? Nobody is fearful, its empowering we believe in the innate intelligence and power of the human body just feed it properly. YOU however do not you put your faith in vaccines, drugs and Medical Doctors who need your submission and need your dependence on them. Wow are you people insecure. #sad
@Theo - how about some facts for a change?
"The CEO of the Mexican Social Security Institute, José Antonio González Anaya, confirmed that hepatitis B vaccines that were applied to 52 children in the community Pepper in Chiapas did not cause health complications in 31 infants nor the two deaths.
He said that so far it has been detected that there was a contamination by an external agent, a bacterium that has yet to be identified.
The official gave a press conference where he was joined by the head of the Federal Commission for Protection Against Health Risks (COFEPRIS), Mikel Arriola and Undersecretary for Prevention and Health Promotion, Pablo Kuri.
They reported that this afternoon will leave the hospital 10 children who have improved their health, although they will continue under observation 72 hours.
Continue interned in Dr. Gilberto Gómez Maza of Tuxtla Gutierrez, Chiapas, 14 children, of whom four are reported as serious Medical Center.
Gonzalez Anaya said investigations are continuing to determine the type of bacteria that contaminated the process of applying the vaccine.
Meanwhile, Pablo Kuri said immunization campaigns will continue without any problem throughout the country. This was determined by the National Immunization Council at the special meeting that was held this afternoon. "
THEO:
An ADVERTISEMENT?
To summarize: "Buy my book! Buy my supplements!"
You are a fool, and your friends are fools, too.
@ Theo
The sheep is not fearful of the shepherd. Yet one day the shepherd will cause its death.
I don't put faith in the hammer I use, either.
I know it has limitations and try to get the best use I can out of it. I am thankful for the good work it's doing, but I certainly don't worship it.
How much of a markup is THEO's source selling their supplements for?
Furthermore to drive home the point of
TOO MANY CHEMICALS ALREADY.
http://healthysustainableliving.blogspot.com/2015/05/this-family-ate-on…
THEO, do you even know what the word "chemical" means? Everything contains chemicals.
Tbruce.......its called epigenetics distilled to nutrigenomics something MD's know nothing about! Hyman is presenting FACTS and yes he has book that provides REAL solutions to REAL complex health problems not more medications that you push.
Grey falcon Indians do not have optional nutrition ok
Helianthus you are scared just like Delphi. Nobody is going to die if they dont get jabbed. Contrary! they will do much better and that will be proven as more and more kids avoid the MYTH that you hold dear.
Lawrence I am sure they are trying to spin that story as quickly as possible. Give me a break
@ Theo
Die? Maybe not (although the parents of the young boy who died in Berlin recently would like to differ).
Getting sick and maybe having to deal with complications, scars and other sequelae? Most certainly.
I'm a microbiologist, dude. People who don't concern themselves with microbial pathogens are fools.
The very annoying part is that, weird claims aside, you got something right: nutrition and hygiene are important.
But by saying that nutrition and hygiene are sufficient, you are like someone who claims that wearing underpants and shoes are all the clothes you need. And to top it, with your false paleo diet and vitalism, you are actually advising people to wear the underpants on their head.
Please provide the data to show that treatments based on nutrigenomics cure or prevent vaccine preventable diseases so that nobody is going to die.
Thanks.
Historical note: The American Indians were far better nourished than the Europeans. They stood on average a head taller thanks to better food.
@THEO:
So quit beating around the bush, THEO! Which specific foods, which specific keystrokes cause appendicitis, cancer, diarrhea, lower respiratory infection, malaria, measles, pertussis, malignant neoplasm, dengue, stroke, tuberculosis, congestive heart failure, and AIDS? Which specific ones cure them?
If you don't answer with specifics at this point, I'll have to assume that there is no answer.
Right. No medications.
Just refined chemicals, given the alias "supplements".
Mephistopheles O'Brien
May 13, 2015
Please provide the data to show that treatments based on nutrigenomics cure or prevent vaccine preventable diseases so that nobody is going to die.
I have already covered this but the main reason death occurs in VPD is due to a number of factors Vit A deficiency and Vit D deficiency specifically. Nutrigenomics solves that problem. Also poor sanitation and hygene
Let Proper Dr Mark Hyman Explain
https://www.functionalmedicine.org/What_is_Functional_Medicine/Why/Evid…
@Helianthus But by saying that nutrition and hygiene are sufficient, you are like someone who claims that wearing underpants and shoes are all the clothes you need. And to top it, with your false paleo diet and vitalism, you are actually advising people to wear the underpants on their head.
Are you saying Vaccines are REQUIRED? and that the human body is not equipped to handle disease? Is that what you are postulating?
''Six hundred years ago they were using forks in the Serbian court while the Germans, the Americans and the Austrians were eating like barbarians with their hands! Forks!''
''It is your ridiculous story about forks that got us into this tunnel.''
A pretty village is pretty when it burns, n'est-ce pas, Iliya THEO?
The northwest coast First Nations were prosperous and had an enviable diet - plenty of fish and game, and a wide variety of plant source foods. They had sophisticated food preservation methods for the off season. In other words, the ideal Paleo diet. Yet they were nearly wiped out by the new infectious diseases brought in by the Europeans.
You can see the whole story at the Royal BC Museum in Victoria.
Why dont you read his article in full about Nutrigenomics. It will save your life
Justthestats
May 13, 2015
@THEO:
The foods you eat are the keystrokes that send messages to your genes telling them what to do—creating health or disease.
So quit beating around the bush, THEO! Which specific foods, which specific keystrokes cause appendicitis, cancer, diarrhea, lower respiratory infection, malaria, measles, pertussis, malignant neoplasm, dengue, stroke, tuberculosis, congestive heart failure, and AIDS? Which specific ones cure them?
Great question that is a work in progress but I think its safe to say fruits veggies lean proteins are a solid place to start.
When in Doubt, Stick with this One Rule
If it came from the earth or a farmer’s field and not a food chemist’s lab, then it is safe to eat. Like Michael Pollan, author of Food Rules says, “If it came from a plant, eat it; if it was made in a plant, don’t.” It is really that simple.
If you don’t answer with specifics at this point, I’ll have to assume that there is no answer. its evolving and very complex based on individuality
#639
TBruce
May 13, 2015
and yes he has book that provides REAL solutions to REAL complex health problems not more medications that you push.
Right. No medications.
Just refined chemicals, given the alias “supplements”.<-----EXACTLY your ignorant if you are not taking them
Even with a perfect diet, the combination of our depleted soils, the storage and transportation of our food, genetic alterations of traditional heirloom species, and the increased stress and nutritional demands resulting from a toxic environment make it impossible for us to get the vitamins and minerals we need solely from the foods we eat. (8) The evidence shows that we cannot get away from the need for nutritional supplements. (9)
That’s why you need a full complement of vitamins and minerals, and you may need to individually correct specific deficiencies, including deficiencies in chromium, biotin, vitamin D, (3) magnesium, (4) zinc, alpha lipoic acid, (5) and omega-3 fats. (6, 7)
Are you saying Vaccines are REQUIRED? and that the human body is not equipped to handle disease? Is that what you are postulating?
We aren't saying it; mortality statistics for the past several decades say it.
@ Theo
No. You are the one saying they are not, in any way.
As a matter of fact, I got most of the childhood disease the natural way and survived. So no, vaccines are not REQUIRED.
That I am saying is that vaccines are efficient tools at helping us fight diseases.
I enjoyed the sick days away from school, and I didn't got lasting harm from the diseases. But I was lucky. Some others weren't. If we have the tools to protect the unlucky ones, we would be fools not to use them.
That I am saying is that it is not a either/either situation. Nutrition and vaccines each have a role in disease fighting. Different roles.
And there are situations where nutrition and hygiene are a luxury.
Would you suggest that people who are too poor to afford good nutrition should give up on vaccines as well?
Smart boy, vaccines work precisely because our bodies are equipped to handle diseases.
The bits of pathogens introduced by vaccines are used as target practice by our immune system, and as a result it becomes faster and more accurate at fighting the real version of these pathogens. Nothing more, nothing less.
You are telling me police officers have a gun and only need bullets to fight criminals, I am telling you bullets are well and good but the police officers will do a better job if they spend some time at the shooting range, so they can learn which end of the gun to point at the target.
The time spent training is not REQUIRED, but hopefully trained police officers will be faster and more accurate.
Some farmers grow castor beans. Ricin, a poison far more lethal than cyanide, comes from castor beans. Almond nuts are safe to eat, but consume any other part of the almond plant and you will likely die from cyanide poisoning. Rhubarb, if it isn't forced, is poisonous. Do not eat potatoes if thy're green because that means they're poisonous.
You are very, very ignorant.
THEO:
So food will prevent all illnesses. Except that it doesn't. So load up on those chemicals. Just the right ones, mind.
And maybe you could explain why aboriginal populations repeatedly were nearly wiped out by European diseases. I suppose it was " the combination of ...depleted soils, the storage and transportation of ... food, genetic alterations of traditional heirloom species, and the increased stress and nutritional demands resulting from a toxic environment " that did them in.
Yep. For sure.
BTW, your footnotes don't exist. You may want to do something about that.
If it came from the earth or a farmer’s field and not a food chemist’s lab, then it is safe to eat.
Theo, have you ever in your entire life span lived in the country?
Helianthus
Smart boy, vaccines work precisely because our bodies are equipped to handle diseases.
The bits of pathogens introduced by vaccines are used as target practice by our immune system, and as a result it becomes faster and more accurate at fighting the real version of these pathogens. Nothing more, nothing less.
Nice analogy except for the fact that we are OVERUSING them. and the fact that they contain NASTY chemicals and adjutants that are a "net negative" in the body. We don't buy into your premise that we need target practice. There is no evidence that its necessary. Thats pharmaceutical dogma Im ok with my son getting measles rather than altering his immune system artificially. Thats the flipside and another philosophy, both are up to the individual to decide whats best for their family. Ok?
Stop the medical TYRANNY show some respect to freedom for the love of god. This aint CHINA
Got any clean green vaccines? if not keep your neurotoxins away.
FTFY. Now go gather some delicious wild mushrooms for yourself.
THEO, you take in more "toxins" and pathogens breathing and eating each day than you ever would from vaccines.
Oh, and THEO. Houses and computers are artificial. Why aren't you living under a tree, writing us messages in the bark?
THEO:
There is more formaldehyde and more aluminium salt in an apple than there is in the entire vaccine schedule. And given that the death toll from the diseases we vaccinate against have plummeted and that dying before 18, once the norm, is now rare enough to be considered a tragedy, I have to take issue with your assessment of vaccines as a "net negative".
@THEO:
@ Theo #649
Highschool biology textbooks beg to differ. There is evidence for the usefulness of training the immune system with harmless decoys. It's called immunity and seroconversion.
You know how you usually only get an illness once, and after this first time you don't catch it again? That's because your immune system learned to fight the responsible pathogen and is going to do it much faster the next time, stopping the germ before it could get a hold on your body.
Vaccines provide our immune system with this first time.
I got immunity from measles by having it once. My younger sister got it by vaccination (and a good thing, since she is more likely to have pulmonary complications, due to some birth defects).
From the point of view of becoming immune to measles, same difference, except I got to miss school, and now I'm remembering about it, had the joy of spending a few days in pajama in a darkened apartment.
As I said, I got lucky. Many children got lucky. Some are not. Ancient cemeteries are full of tiny tombs. My mom is the only survivor of 8 siblings.
AFAIK, if I was to look at the antibody content of my blood and my sister's, I wouldn't be able to tell if the anti-measles antibodies were produced in answer to vaccination or a true infection. Well, maybe with some complicated immunological tests.
Also, [citation needed] for your overuse/toxic content claims.
If you are talking about thimerosal, there aren't any in MMR shots.
Dude, I'm on the other side of the planet. I'm not going to bash your door and stick needles into you or yours.
And I don't think any American on this site really want to do that, too.
You want the freedom to not vaccinate? Fine. No problem here. But a lot of people want the freedom to send their children to places where the risk of catching some annoying diseases is at a minima. Vaccines are useful tools to minimize these risks.
If you don't want vaccines, you are free to go anywhere else, and that's plenty of other places.
@Julian Frost:
Yeah, but I bet you're one of those people who thinks that child sacrifice is a net negative as well!
Oh yes, the freedom from the tyranny of responsibility, it seems.....
Anti-vaxers want their cake & eat it too - all well and good for them to make decisions for themselves and their children, but to not accept the responsibility to others that comes with that choice makes them sound just like Ayn Rand Libertarians (with all the hallmarks that come with that label).
Excellent article by Dr. Mark Hyman
Can Autism be Cured?
drhyman.com/blog/2010/05/12/can-autism-be-cured/#close
#581 JP
ты чё, сука, охуел, бля?
#659 Oops wrong phrase.
@ken - you might want to look at this first, before posting anymore:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/?s=Mark+Hyman
I take it that THEO™ would apply the same standard to the Schaibles.
Well, that was nonsensical.
#661 Lawrence
I have no doubt that Orac is a dedicated breast cancer surgeon.
@ken:
Ты вообще говоришь по-русски? Или просто «знаешь» некоторые слова? А зачем прямо «на ты»? Мы же не друзья.
#659 Oops wrong phrase.
Well, that was nonsensical.
I don't often try to look intelligent or blessed with a good personality... but when I do, I too start cutting and pasting random fragments from webguides to swearing in Russian!
Great Article Ken. Hyman is spot on! all of you would be wise tp consider his approach.
Frankly who the hell wants to learn Russian?
Did you miss this link about the family in Sweden? its 2 mins and eye opening. My question is how do all these pesticides in the body react with Vaccines?
http://healthysustainableliving.blogspot.com/2015/05/this-family-ate-on…
"What does vaccination supposedly do to “prepare” the body against the future invasion of a particular germ? It stimulates the production of antibodies against that germ.
Antibodies are immune-system scouts that move through the body, identify germs, and paint them for destruction by other immune-system troops.
However, since the entire immune system is involved in wreaking that destruction, why is bulking up one department of the immune system—antibodies—sufficient to guarantee future protection?
On what basis can we infer that bulking up antibodies, through vaccination, is enough?
There is no basis. It’s a naked assumption. It’s not a fact. Logic makes a clear distinction between assumptions and facts. Confusing the two leads to all sorts of problems, and it certainly does in the case of vaccination.
Furthermore, why does the body need a vaccine in order to be prepared for the later invasion of germs? The whole structure/function of the immune system is naturally geared to launch its multifaceted counter-attack against germs whenever trouble arises. The antibodies swing into action when a potentially harmful germ makes its appearance, at age five, eight, 10, 15.
It’s said that vaccination is a rehearsal for the real thing. But no need for rehearsal has been established.
And why are we supposed to believe that such a rehearsal works? The usual answer is: the body remembers the original vaccination and how it produced antibodies, and so it’s better prepared to do it again when the need is real. But there is no basis for this extraordinary notion of “remembering.”
It’s another assumption sold as fact."
https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2013/02/05/dumbed-down-populations-a…
Ken never fails to disappoint when it comes to a little stupidity, arrogance, or anti-intellectualism. I did at least have a giggle break while poring over all these Bakhtin quotations.
Frankly who the hell wants to learn Russian?
@ ken
Russian people?
@ Theo
So, apart from "Eat your greens", any useful dietary advice?
Because, that last one, I got it free of charge from the physicians and health agencies of the last 3 countries I was lucky enough to visit. This includes the USA.
OK guys -what is wrong with the nutritional approach that he used to help his patient? Not double-blind placebo controlled trial? What exactly would SBM do that would get the same results?
Reposting for all the skeptics-Excellent article by Dr. Mark Hyman
Can Autism be Cured?
drhyman.com/blog/2010/05/12/can-autism-be-cured/#close
JP You are delusional.
Ken, if you want to insult JP, you could just do it in English, rather than making yourself look like a total sh1tweasel by copy-pasting garbled phrases from Russian webpages and then blaming your illiteracy on your source for being in a foreign language.
Not currently, but thanks for your concern.
ken -- autism is not a disease, it is not caused by toxins, and one child is an anecdote, not data. Could you please do a little reading in the posts and comments here and surprise us by coming up with something relevant?
How about completely undocumented, prima facie nonsensical in places, and entirely consistent with the well-know fact that developmental delay is not developmental stasis?
How do you know that Hyman's stupid experimentation didn't prolong the time to shedding the diagnosis?
"Furthermore, why does the body need a vaccine in order to be prepared for the later invasion of germs? The whole structure/function of the immune system is naturally geared to launch its multifaceted counter-attack against germs whenever trouble arises. The antibodies swing into action when a potentially harmful germ makes its appearance, at age five, eight, 10,.."
So what happened to the millions of children who were born before vaccines were developed? Why didn't their antibodies swing into action?
@ Theo 669
Oh for Pete's sake.
To start with, look up IgM, IgG, well immunology 101.
(and my bad, in a previous post I used the term "seroconversion" inappropriately. What I mean is the phenomenon where the first answer against a pathogen is made up of IgM antibodies, and during the next answers antibodies are now of the IgG classes)
To continue, there is a whole industry based on the production and harvesting of antibodies directed against specific molecules, Not just antivenom sera, but also for production of molecules able to catch and isolate something of interest for a scientist or a physician. Look up Elisa test.
A little slice of this industry is specialized into isolating little cute cells called memory B cells, and cultivating them to produce specific antibodies.
Here is an example of such enterprises. Disclaimer: I selected this enterprise by internet search with the terms "immortalization lymphocyte B".
Research teams all over the world, including the ones in big pharma labs, are willing to pay over-inflated prices for such cells or antibodies.
Other research teams, some I met, work on using antibodies from camel or the equivalent molecules in shark, because of their special properties. Other work on producing lines of mice which express modified antibodies with human properties.
All of these works would be totally useless if 1- specific, selected antibodies did't have a fabulous specificity and 2- the immune systems of mammals didn't have cells whose sole purpose is to produce specific antibodies ten years from now.
But it's all an "assumption not fact". I guess all of these immunologist people are just sitting all day sipping coffee or whatever, and no-one noticed.
Not my fault you are too blind to learn. I hope you are not going to kill anyone with your stupidity.
#679 Shay Interesting question. My mother, who would be 108 had she lived (she died at 95) was one of 7 children, 5 who lived to their late 80's all in good health. Born before vaccines- they had the luck of the genes, nutritional food, developement of anti-biotics, better sanitation.
@ken- Olivia Dahl had all those as well. She died of measles at age seven.
#682 Wouldn't the term rare measles complications be a better term.
Measles notifications and deaths in England and Wales: 1940 to 2013
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/measles-deaths-by-age-group-…
Let's continue with the stupidity of known-nothing Rappoport #669, shall we?
Nothing is guaranteed in this world, save death ant taxes. And death only comes once.
We "bulk" the antibody part because it's a part we can reach.
Still, there is more.
Antibodies are produced by lymphocytes B. In order to produce them, they need the go-ahead signal from lymphocytes T helpers.
But other lymphocytes T could be activated as well, the cytotoxic ones (the ones going against cancer cells and cells infested with viruses).
Funny how "just one department" is actually a large chunk of the immune system, the adaptive response. The whole thing will be exercised by the vaccination.
Actually, it's not.
Cells and structures involved in non-specific immunity will be operating all the time, sure.
But cells from our adaptive response? They need to be recruited first.
Each and every one of the lymphocyte B and T cells which exits our bone marrow is only able to target one specific molecule.
There are millions of lymphocytes per millimeter of blood and lymph, and we have a few liters of these fluids. Only a few carry useful receptors against pathogens. The cell and the pathogen will have to meet if the specific immune response is to start. Thankfully, there are cells whose job is to catch flotsam, digest it and then go around showing the digested bits to all the lymphocytes they may encounter.
If the targeted molecule happens to be one of our own molecule, this lymphocyte cell will be found out in specific organs (Thymus for T-cells) and be ordered to die. If this cell didn't meet the targeted molecule within a few months, it will die.
Cells who have encountered their target, on the other hand...
They are going to multiply. Enormously.
The stronger the interaction between the antibody and the targeted molecule, the higher the impulsion to multiply.
Most of these new cells will inflate themselves and produce antibodies like crazy. But some will remain quiescent, and will stick around quietly around your lymph nodes. Until the day their target reappears. Then the cycle starts again.
End result of a first infection/vaccination: instead of having a few dozen transient cells with a half-liking for the measles virus (or whatever) in your whole body, you will have thousands of long-lived cells. And all of these cells will have been selected for the strength of their antibody at latching onto the virus.
Hence, next time, these cells will be found more quickly, and produce antibodies very specific of the invader. Faster, more accurate.
True enough. (They sometimes used knives.) But forks are quite recent. Not so very long ago there were some who felt very much about forks as some feel today about vaccines, as a matter of fact:
@ann:
I guess I could deobfuscate that comment a little; I was in fact referencing a particularly dimwitted Serbian nationalist character in a movie, and thereby insinuating that THEO himself is a Serbian apologist/nationalist. He hasn't seem interested thus far in countering those assumptions.
Unbelievable. You stride in here and play the expert when you don't have a clue. This is Grade I immunology.
You really are a fool.
Okay, now I get it. You're using Jon Rappoport as a reference.
This guy:
http://americanloons.blogspot.ca/2014/05/1050-jon-rappoport.html
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/07/23/depopulation-by-vaccines/
I called you a fool. I was too kind.
You stride in here and play the expert when you don’t have a clue.
More precisely, Theo is copy-pasting from some other loon playing the expert who doesn't have a clue. But remember, it's the other commenters who "put their faith" in scientists!
THEO:
On what basis can we infer that bulking up the rest of the immune system, through good nutrition, is enough?
Dude. Nobody ever said that vaccination was some sort of substitute for adequate nutrition. But adequate nutrition only goes so far. Wouldn't it be best to have *both*?
Well, you would know, dude that Theo quoted. Funny you keep doing it.
"The antibodies swing into action when a potentially harmful germ makes its appearance, at age five, eight, 10, 15."
Only if you think they can travel in time. Antibodies are developed in response to an infection; the body cannot deploy antibodies that do not yet exist against a new infectious agent. It has to learn the infectious agent, develop an antibody, and then start making it. If it can do this before the body is too weakened to continue fighting, you will overcome the infection. If not . . . well, you won't.
Seriously, knowing all this, why the heck would anybody prefer getting immunity "the old-fashioned way"?
His standout moment for me was when he announced that Thompson had been physically removed from the CDC grounds.
My mother, who would be 108 had she lived (she died at 95) was one of 7 children, 5 who lived to their late 80’s all in good health. Born before vaccines- they had the luck of the genes, nutritional food, developement of anti-biotics, better sanitation.
And they caught all of the vaccine-preventable diseases, too. Their antibodies did not swing into action, did they?
I have some bad news for regular commenters. The person going by the 'nym Lilady passed away unexpectedly last month. ToddW has written a lovely homage:
http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2015/05/in-memoriam-lilady.html
If you have a memory you would like to share, please do so over at Todd's blog. He has been in touch with people who knew her in real life.
@JP
I saw the link. I just thought I'd remark on the history of table forks in western civilization. Because, you know. This thread's been too damn topical.
As has our host:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/05/13/in-memoriam-lilady/
If Ken's mother was born "before vaccines," she would be a lot older than 108 if she was alive today. But it's true that being able to vaccinate against many diseases is better than only being able to vaccinate against smallpox.
More to the point, not everyone has the advantages of "good" genetics, whatever that means in a certain context. Even if they do, they may not have access to good nutrition: millions of people, including children, go hungry even in developed countries. Vaccines won't make up for that, but vaccine-preventable diseases make it worse.
#696 Should read born before vaccines were given in the boonies with the exception of the smallpox vaccine which was the only one I received before the age of 13.
Came across the Blog and many good (exhaustive) comments here. It is very time consuming to post all this here and the Great 'Orac" should enjoy the debate. The great Orac seems very determined to stir things up here. How about instead of chasing the "snake oil salesman" of which I am sure there are few out there on the other side of vaccinations, why not offer something that pushes the debate forward instead of placing politics into medicine of which it has no place. Maybe offer your winded writing to actually "answer" lingering questions. Such as: Why are the CDC figures always "so" lagging behind? Best I see, this stats are from 2010.... yes 2010. Does it take much effort for the CDC to compile data like this? I think not, and the Great Orac, if you have a plausible answer to that I have not seen ( please do share). Are they simply over worked? Underfunded? Their computers do not talk to each other? Have heard that all before from so many Govt. agencies. Maybe their Hard Drives crashed. Yes, I think maybe that could be it. Cannot get this data from the thousands of Hospitals and doctors across our country on an ongoing/ incoming basis? Yes, please do comment. Right now the CDC shows that the ASD prevalence rate is 1 in 68.... repeat 1 in 68. Their own site. This is an extremely high unacceptable number in "any" medical condition would you not agree? Any business model, or any metric of which we would judge "anything". Except winning a lottery in which case it would be good. So, if the stats are from 2010, and the Bell Curve has been going "UP".... don't say you cannot deny this.... then how and why? What are the linking factors of different countries that are inclusive to the bell curve spike upward? Again, 1 in 68 is absolutely shocking on it's own and the data appears to be 4 years old. In fairness I have not read this whole thread or your other postings, but seem to lean towards what you call maybe "truthers" with a little politics thrown in.If however there is shilling going on for one side of the other instead of finding ( not commenting) on what is "not" causing something, then "all" is a waste of time. I take oh great Orac, that you "are" stating that there "is not " and "never could be" anything in current vaccine compounds that could trigger a negative effect in humans? That every compound, process and delivery is perfectly correct and helpful 100 % of the time? Pretty bold statement if so. I am sure many comment who do have (or know) someone with Autism disorder whether mild or severe would like the conversation to contain what "is " causing" ASD rather than your pesky commentary on what is not. At 1 in 68, sure you have crossed paths with a child inflicted with ASD . If the curve goes up anymore, one city block could contain a child with some form of ASD. A child that will struggle his whole life, a parent that will struggle with them at a high cost both emotionally and financially. A child turning into an Adult who will never marry statically. Never produce children for the most part. Thus, a child who will never generationally go forward. You may also feel that this would reduce the carbon footprint in lockstep some say so sorely needed, and help with the population overall a little at a time. Bold statement....? You bet. Great Orca............could this be something to consider in your oh so wise opinion.
Tbruce
Unbelievable. You stride in here and play the expert when you don’t have a clue. This is Grade I immunology.
You really are a fool.
Its an assumption that is not withstanding scientific scrutiny WTF are you talking about? Its an old archaic idea that was great 60 years go but NEW science is here to take its place but the pharmaceutical cartel wont let you find out. The drug industry is the “biggest obstacle to world health” and since then, numerous books have been published describing the devastating impact that this organized fraud has on people and societies around the world.
TBRUCE hey buddy wake the up bruh you have been duped
Calli Arcale
On what basis can we infer that bulking up antibodies, through vaccination, is enough?
On what basis can we infer that bulking up the rest of the immune system, through good nutrition, is enough?
"its an emerging science and paradigm that will change the world in due time. Maybe if we could do a study with unvaccinated kids and optimal nutrients we could find out. But no the medical mafia/cartel in this country dictates that it would be unethical to do such a study? STFU
Real meaning we don't want you to find out that being unvaccinated is significantly superior. We must control ALL aspects of healthcare because if the american people found out it would create mistrust in other pharmaceutical dogma that we perpetuate. Like are phony solution to cancer Chemotherapy Etc and on and on. So...........
YOU WILL FOLLOW OUR VACCINE PLAN.
Dude. Nobody ever said that vaccination was some sort of substitute for adequate nutrition. But adequate nutrition only goes so far. Wouldn’t it be best to have *both*?
it would be great to have both if in fact vaccines were not so problematic. Containing awful ingredients-toxins and tricking the immune system leading to allergies and autoimmune diseases etc.
Thats the Achilles heal of this medical intervention. You can’t have immunity to all these disease with out a COST.
Nothing is free in life……. surely you understand that right?
You do understand that right?
THERE IS A COST get that through your brainwashed skulls.
Every single drug, every single vaccine and every single surgery comes with a cost and side effect to the human body. playing God with immune system when we don’t fully understand all aspects of it is dangerous! We are seeing that with our children now with exploding chronic disease rates. unexplained by pediatricians
Think about all of the tylenol we gave babies for decades thinking there was no cost or side effect?
After controlling for numerous factors, including breast-feeding, antibiotic use and parental smoking, they found that children given acetaminophen before age 1 had an almost 50 percent increased risk for asthma, eczema and allergy compared with those given none.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/07/health/research/07chil.html
OOPS sorry we damaged your children with this benign Tylenol.
Same story with vaccines They are dangerous to your long term health PERIOD
Seriously, knowing all this, why the heck would anybody prefer getting immunity “the old-fashioned way”?
YES give my son measles mumps rubella ETC Build that innate immunity. I will pump him up with 5000 MGs of Vit C and an arsenol of other nutrients and BEHOLD the power of the human immune system in action. sure it would be scary to watch my son suffer but it would be worse if he got cancer or Lupus or Asthma etc
Here is the difference between our philiosphies
YOU believe in external toxic medical interventions I believe in the power of human body. It will perform when given the proper building blocks. Its vastly more powerful than any drug or vaccine or arrogant fucking doctor who knows nothing about nutrition.
Maybe just maybe this will protect him from cancer one day.
Came across the Blog and many good (exhaustive) comments here. It is very time consuming to post all this here and the Great ‘Orac” should enjoy the debate. Seems very determined to stir things up here. How about instead of chasing the “snake oil salesman” of which I am sure there are few out there on the other side of vaccinations, why not offer something that pushes the debate forward instead of placing politics into medicine of which it has no place. Maybe offer your winded writing to actually “answer” lingering questions. Such as: Why are the CDC figures always “so” lagging behind? Best I see, this stats are from 2010…. yes 2010. Does it take much effort for the CDC to compile data like this? I think not, if you have a plausible answer to that I have not seen ( please do share). Are they simply over worked? Underfunded? Their computers do not talk to each other? Have heard that all before from so many Govt. agencies. Maybe their Hard Drives crashed. Yes, I think maybe that could be it. Cannot get this data from the thousands of Hospitals and doctors across our country on an ongoing/ incoming basis? Yes, please do comment. Right now the CDC shows that the ASD prevalence rate is 1 in 68…. Repeat 1 in 68. Their own site. This is an extremely high unacceptable number in “any” medical condition would not all agree? Any business model, or any metric of which we would judge “anything”. Except winning a lottery in which case it would be good. So, if the stats are from 2010, and the Bell Curve has been going “UP”…. don’t say you cannot deny this…. then how and why? What are the linking factors of different countries that are inclusive to the bell curve spike upward? Again, 1 in 68 is absolutely shocking on it’s own and the data appears to be 4 years old. In fairness I have not read this whole thread or your other postings, but seem to lean towards what you call maybe “truthers” with a little politics thrown in. If however there is shilling going on for one side or the other instead of finding (not commenting) on what is “not” causing something, then “all” is a waste of time. I take it as moderator, that you “are” stating that there “is not ” and “never could be” anything in current vaccine compounds that could trigger a negative effect in humans? That every compound, process and delivery is perfectly correct and helpful 100 % of the time? Pretty bold statement if so. I am sure many comment who do have (or know) someone with Autism disorder whether mild or severe would like the conversation to contain what “is ” causing” ASD rather than your pesky commentary on what is not. At 1 in 68, sure you have crossed paths with a child inflicted with ASD . If the curve goes up anymore, one city block could contain a child with some form of ASD. A child that will struggle his whole life, a parent that will struggle with them at a high cost both emotionally and financially. A child turning into an Adult who will never marry statically. Never produce children for the most part. Thus, a child who will never generationally go forward. You may also feel that this would reduce the carbon footprint in lockstep some say so sorely needed, and help with the population overall a little at a time. Bold statement….? You bet. Could this be something to consider in your oh so wise opinion.
@#700
"In fairness I have not read this whole thread or your other postings"
Then maybe before taking the time to expend 604 words, you should have.
@THEO
"and an arsenol of other nutrients" It's ARSENAL. Thank you.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/53/Arsenal_FC.svg/870p…
THEO, Mr Dunning and Mr Kruger would like a word.
Noah:
You no doubt have some good questions, but they are hard to make out in the midst of that spew. Take some time, finish reading this post and the comments, and follow the links. Then, ask your questions clearly. That would really help.
johnny
May 11, 2015
“Your privilege makes me want to puke. Let’s take measles/ Yes, let’s invent a COMPLETELY NEW PARADIGM to eradicate a disease with NO ANIMAL RESERVOIR instead of RELYING ON THE ONE THAT IS ALREADY EXTREMELY EFFICACIOUS in order to PREVENT AN AVERAGE OF 400 DEATHS A DAY in populations who frequently WALK FOR MILES and LINE UP FOR HOURS because they’d rather not suffer and possibly DIE from a PREVENTABLE DISEASE that has within recent memory HARMED OR KILLED their friends and family. Puke, your privilege, it makes me want to PUKE.” the delphie one
What a pile of anecdotal tosh. You cannot include measles deaths from 3rd world countries with 1st world as part of the same cohort for you appeal to emotion. 3rd world measles deaths are about malnutrition and poor sanitation. In the recent bullshit Disney outbreak in America there was not one recorded death – totally disproportionate scare mongering. What makes me puke and hose brown stuff simultaneously is a jerked up medic reading the riot act from a piece of toilet paper given to you as a an undergrad.
medical peer review is dead, you can’t quote it as anything else but a stinking anecdote. Hang your head in shame – loser"
Why am I not surprised that the point I was making went right over your angry little head. The fact that some privileged, ignorant tool thinks we should or will invent a "COMPLETELY NEW PARADIGM" when there are people dying for lack of access to the PARADIGM THAT ALREADY WORKS is beyond your entitled brain as well, apparently.
Unfortunately, my experience in the field isn't anecdotal. I'd give you the list of everywhere I've been and the damage I've witnessed from VPDs, but it would be a waste of my time.
Theo @625
Your "best answer" isn't an answer at all-it ignores the direct question you were asked.
I'll repeat it:
What exactly does one “feed the body” of a patient who has developed AIDS as the result of HIV infection which will result ins his to “inmmune system [sic]” performing optimally'? Be specific.
Quite the contrary: per the WHO, worldwide in 2013 145,700 died because they contracted a measles infections. That works out 400 deaths a day of people who 'didn't get the jab'
Noah:
Amazing to see so much ignorance packed into such a short sentence. The CDC has to gather and report data from around a country of hundreds of millions of people. It can take a very long time to gather, verify, process, and render into a readable format. It's like you don't know the first thing about data analysis.
Autism is not a medical condition. And no, I wouldn't agree. 9% of the population has asthma and approximately a third of all people are short sighted.
Aspie here. And I have an official diagnosis from a psychiatrist. And you'd be wrong about a lot of things. I don't find Orac's commentary "pesky". As for what causes autism, the evidence points very strongly to a genetic cause. In fact, if you met my father you'd know why I'm an aspie.
One last thing: that 1 in 68 statistic is just the rate of diagnosis. I doubt very much that the true rate of autism is increasing, and that broadened diagnostic criteria, diagnostic substitution, increased awareness and previous underdiagnosis are the real reasons for the supposed "increase".
@ken
My grandfather would be 115. He was born into an upper middle class family in West London, the youngest child of 12. They had a summer home in the bucolic countryside with a lovely vegetable garden, plenty of good food. He was breastfed until he was 2 years old. Healthy, happy, prosperous family.
He was the only boy to survive childhood. 4 of 12 died, not including the one stillborn due to postdates. Scarlet fever took two. TB took his mother at the age of 44, two years after the birth of her last born.
Oh, those golden days of yonder.
Theo, your evidence that we are all-caps OVERUSING vaccines would be...what, exactly?
Your evidence that any of the ingredients in vaccine formulations are harmful at concentrations acheivable by routine vaccination such that the risk associated with being vaccines exceed the risk associated with remaining vulnerable to infection by the disseases they protect against (i.e., 'are a net negative in the body') would be...what exactly?
Be specific. I mean, you do actually ahve some-right?
JGC looks like nature has a solution to Aids as well. Imagine that no need for drugs. Now of course the research is hard to develop when only the pharmaceutical industry is in control.
Black Seed Extract 'Cures' HIV Patient Naturally
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/black-seed-completely-cures-hiv-case-s…
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/38-natural-alternatives-hiv
@theo - please feel free to step up & be part of the double-blind study.
JGC Theo, your evidence that we are all-caps OVERUSING vaccines would be…what, exactly?
Exploding rates of chronically sick children that cannot be explained by the medical establishment. However accurately explained by defecting Medical Doctors and scientists that don't adhere to your official answers. Um your Pharmaceutical model that you worship is not God and all knowing Ok?I know thats hard for you. But for the rest of us we are not buying it. We what answers not excuses and mysteries capeesh?
I believe the use of all those single quotes ably demonstrates you are perfectly aware Orac has made no such claim.
How exactly have you established that those 'exploding rates' are due to the overuse of vaccines, Theo? Be specific.
Delphine#708 You are conflating what I said and taking it out of context. I do not think vaccines are the greatest achievement. I think SBM medicine has made greater achievements. My father died at 59 from early rheumatic fever and untreated hyperthyroid condition. My aunt lost 2 babies because of an RH-incompatible factor. My aunt had a brain damaged child from lack of oxygen at birth.
There are no vaccines for Scarlet fever or TB. Antibiotics were in full use only after WW2. Certainly not the good old days but posters often exaggerate the importance of vaccines. The majority died from other causes in childhood; rotavirus is often indistingushible from norovirus without lab testing.
Theo, when the evidecne you offer feels the need to place the word cures in single quote, and is published on a website that offers a standard quack miranda ("This article is not intended to provide medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those of GreenMedInfo or its staff"), then....well, even you must be able to see the problem with your
evidence'.
Then again maybe your problem is that you can't.
JGC
May 14, 2015
Exploding rates of chronically sick children that cannot be explained by the medical establishment.
How exactly have you established that those ‘exploding rates’ are due to the overuse of vaccines, Theo? Be specific.
How about you answer that question? What is cause it and dont say better diagnosis and screening. Be specific.... What is CAUSING this increase?
THEO:
Citation needed that the rates of chronic illness are "exploding".
@ Theo
Ah, the alt-med dualism.
A natural molecule sold by Big pharma = drug
A natural molecule sold by Theo = not-drug
And then he talks about "pumping his son with 5 MGs of vitamin C".
What do you think digitaline, morphine, curare, insulin are?
Its a damn good thing I am a visionary and don't conform. I always ask questions. and question authority. its served me well
I am light years ahead of you guys in this new future of healthcare its stunning.
what would those great achievments be, ken? The only one that I can think of off the top of my head that comes close might be the development of surgical anesthesia, but I seriously doubt that comes close to saving as many lives as does vaccination (the WHO estimates that measles vaccination alone prevents between 2.5 and 3 million deaths every year).
#716 indistinguishable
#722 "estimates" is the operative word here. Many many survived Ebola in the 3rd world A very hardy immune system indeed. (Yes I know many died)
Explain how all those people survived Ebola- t cell counts etc.?
It's stunning alright. I nearly pass out from laughing so hard reading your stuff.
JGC #722 you have just displayed incredible ignorance by that statement-the only thing you can think of is anesthesia.
"How about you answer that question? What is cause it and dont say better diagnosis and screening. Be specific…. What is CAUSING this increase?"
Non-responsive--I'll repeat my question:
How exactly have you established that those ‘exploding rates of chronically sick children that cannot be explained by the medical establishment’ are due to the overuse of vaccines, Theo? Be specific.
Ken, your post also is non-responsive. i'll repeat the question I asked you:
What achievements has science based medicine realized that you believe are greater than safe and effective vaccination?
Surely you had something in mind when you first voiced the opinion that it had.
ken, you said: "My mother, who would be 108 had she lived (she died at 95) was one of 7 children, 5 who lived to their late 80’s all in good health. Born before vaccines- they had the luck of the genes, nutritional food, developement of anti-biotics, better sanitation."
You're extolling the virtues of genetics, nutrition, antibiotics, and sanitation. I'm simply saying that despite having tremendous advantages, my grandfather's family was not so fortunate.
"Certainly not the good old days but posters often exaggerate the importance of vaccines" - You fail to realize the importance of vaccines. The failure is not theirs.
"The majority died from other causes in childhood; rotavirus is often indistingushible from norovirus without lab testing." What? Diarrhoea is one of the leading causes of death of children <5. What's your point, ken? Should we say sod it to the rota vax, or what? http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.4161/hv.7.7.15511
"There are no vaccines for Scarlet fever or TB. " True on the first but you missed the point and false on the second, ken. YOU may not have been immunized against TB. Millions have, including me.
JGC, I'm not ken but I think the advent of modern obstetrics is equal to vaccines and anesthesia. But not great than.
Your "NEW" science is vitalism, right? It was an "old[,] archaic idea" back in the dark ages. Literally.
The pharmaceutical cartel forgot to suppress my philosophy of science class. Oh, and Wikipedia. And lots and lots of other sources. Pretty careless of them, really. They really should try harder if they want to get anywhere.
I saw the trailers for the movie based on that series. I skipped it because the plot seemed hackneyed and unbelievable. But people liked Twilight so there's obviously a market for that kind of stuff.
How insidious of them to convince the nations of the world to agree that they shouldn't allow experiments in any branch of science on children where there was a serious chance of harm to the child. Terrible stuff, really. I'm sure they knew that sixty years later it would be a great excuse for why they can't be bothered to subject children to diseases that maim and kill for science, even if the parents want them to! Great planning ahead on their part, and no doubt had nothing to do with the appalling* atrocities committed in the name of science that had been brought to light at about that time.
Not doing a good job at that one either. I'm pretty sure you can think of drugs that have been withdrawn from the market, which wouldn't have happened if your conspiracy theory was real.
Please list the toxins present in vaccines, why they are there, what they are there for, and what the consequences would be if they were eliminated. Please also demonstrate you know what the word "toxin" means by leaving out of your list other toxic substances.
Otherwise I'll have to assume you don't know what you're talking about.
I'll assume that means that "natural immunity" to those diseases comes with a COST.
What are the costs to eating vaguely-defined good foods and taking lots of supplements? Nothing is free in life, you know.
Unless you can write a short paragraph explaining the pros and cons of that interpretation of the evidence, as well as at least two other interpretations, in enough detail that would satisfy an introduction to research methods professor, I don't feel like talking with you about that. It sounds to me like you don't even know how much you don't know about study interpretation.
I take that back, slightly. I am interested in knowing why you believe your interpretation of this result, but you don't seem nearly as interested in the results of studies that don't confirm your theories.
If it doesn't protect him from cancer, you would have tortured him for no reason.
This is factually incorrect. My philosophy is empiricism. I believe the only way to know if something is true is to test it out and see if it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't matter how reasonable or nice sounding the belief is, it's wrong. I believe that strong claims require strong evidence. I believe that the universe works in a way that is often quite predictable.
Your beliefs are nice sounding. It could be good if they were true. But you yourself acknowledge that you don't have evidence to back them up, and there is evidence you don't acknowledge that tends to disprove your ideas. That's why you and I part ways.
What are the hard-hitting questions you've asked of people who share your beliefs, and what convincing answers have they given? Be specific, please.
Well sure, and you're quite humble about it. Wait...weren't we just talking about the medieval belief of vitalism? Isn't that lightyears ahead of us in the past of healthcare, technically speaking?
Anyway, you remind me of that guy who also claimed on this site to be lightyears ahead. I don't know if you met him, but he liked to say how he had invented this exercise that made you immortal and he liked to go around naked in winter to prove the point. Or something like that. The details weren't important. You should get in touch with him, so that you both can get even farther ahead of us. He was willing to sell his secret for a large but reasonable sum.
* In some cases they didn't even ask the parents' permission before torturing and killing the children, so you know it's got to be appalling.
Delphine #731 To win the fight against tuberculosis (TB), a comprehensive approach is needed that includes new and more effective vaccines as well as improved diagnostics and treatment. The Bacille Calmette-Guérin (BCG) vaccine developed in 1921 remains the only vaccine against TB. Unfortunately, it is only partially effective: it provides some protection against severe forms of pediatric TB, but is unreliable against adult pulmonary TB, which accounts for most of the disease burden worldwide. Although BCG is the most widely administered vaccine in the world, the number of TB cases have never been higher. There is therefore an urgent need for a new, safe and effective vaccine that prevents all forms of TB, including drug-resistant strains, in all age groups and in people with HIV.
www.who.int/immunization/research/development/tuberculosis/en/
ken:
I know this has been refuted already, but it warrant a second refutation. There IS a vaccine against Tuberculosis. It's called B.C.G., and I have a mark on my right arm just under my shoulder from it.
You are pig ignorant.
ken, seriously, you're in way over your head here. I've forgotten more about BCG than you will ever know - you didn't even know it existed until 5 minutes ago - so please, don't try to school me on efficacy, thanks so very much.
Your arrogance is as astonishing as your ignorance.
ken, you copypasta'd that from the WHO. Verbatim.
I'm speechless. That doesn't happen much, I think I need more tea. What an arrogant bag of sh1T you are.
http://www.who.int/immunization/research/development/tuberculosis/en/
#701- was just being honest here and trying to observe this a Ping-Pong match with no winner. Alternative medicine blogs can only exist because most are looking ( some desperately) for an answer of some sort when they "are not getting any" !
#704- thanks for the little bit of positive. In the same breath "spew" is used and yes, exactly what it is. Heart felt spew. If you could pull out the good points, that would be fine. Simple questions really, and all that follow here ( and moderate) could surely handle.
#707 - wow... answered your own question here. When quoting the 1 in 68 in 2010 (which I am sure many others have) you state you "doubt" it is that high. That is the point, when you doubt, it means nothing and just an opinion. I am sure you can dilute this number down to many form/ factors of Autism severity as you choose, but still if a child has Autism ( confirmed by a board certified medical doctor stating so) this ok with you?
I know a little about data collection, but I am sure not enough. How about you? If you work for the CDC, then the Dept. is going too slow. I work around some in Pediatrics and if each new diagnosis of Autism is recorded, which it is, for every new case in every part of the country, I assume not really hard at all to gather this collective number and put on a graph like they already have? Sorry, do not buy into this comment at all. Four years between snapshots is "way" too long. If this is correct every time you might to Chuck E. Cheese, one or more beautiful children in the room will be affected. I could give a crap less if you say it is genetic or medical ...... the CDC should not discriminate. Might watch what you say here.... some say vaccines mess with genetic makeup .... oops.. this that out of line as well?
I could also care less if someone take a B-17 or Selenium pill in an attempt to help their child. Seems everyone soooo critical. Go find a cure for this dreaded affliction. All of you who spend time typing away (who are you defending)? Give you this.... 1- 2000. That better? Still not good enough
Its a damn good thing I am a visionary and don’t conform
Seeing visions, like hearing voices, is not really something to boast about.
Noah:
You are a liar. I said:
I believe that the rate of autism is more or less constant. We have just got better at detecting it.
Please. Pretty please, bring back preview.
#737 Obviously- Sorry I forgot the quote marks. I gave the link to read. Sorry that the vaccine is not as effective as you thought but don't take your anger out on me. How crude of you.
Ken, an imperfect or incomplete solution is better than nothing. People aren't going around demanding we get rid of seat belts because they don't prevent all traffic accidents.
You're so predictable, ken. Please point out where I said anything about my thoughts on the efficacy of BCG, a vaccine you became acquainted with approximately one hour ago.
#737 Delphine I posted that link in #734 Sorry that the BCG is not as effective as you would like.
ken: I'll ask you this again. Please point out where I said anything about my thoughts on the efficacy of BCG, a vaccine you became acquainted with approximately 62 minutes ago.
You didn't even know it existed. When I pointed out that there is indeed a vaccine for BCG, you tried to school me on its efficacy. I said nothing about how effective BCG is or isn't.
But keep trying. It's like a race to the bottom for you, isn't it ken?
The developement of antibiotics trumps vaccines. I'm biased.
I see. Can't find it, can you?
Maybe you should stay on the WHO site for the rest of the day, ken. It might do you some good. You might, say, become acquainted with other lifesaving vaccines of whose existence you are unaware.
Because just like vaccination, antibiotics prevent millions of people from dying as the result of either bacterial or viral infections annually...
Oh. Wait...
#740 - Wow Liar... please, please don't pull any punches. Could be right about that though in the fact more cases are being confirmed as the sweep is larger now. Still this belittles the Medical Doctors in the field a bit does it not, in the fact they are just catching up? In 1995 some say... have to be careful here.... 1-500. I just gave you credit for 1,500 cases earlier. Just because you work in IT, no not good enough. The CDC or Congress or someone can enact one of those little bills they are so fond which requires all Pediatricians (leave out the Hospitals) to send in data of a quarterly (semi-annual) basis on all new confirmed cases that have been diagnosed. Then you can come back and inform the doctors they are surely mistaken, and it is must be some other kind of life altering condition that they can start a "new" graph for. Just like HIPPA directives etc., these can be done. If there are over a million births a year, surely do not have record them all, just the 1 out of 68 remember? If it was not children, would not care so much.... Fibromyalgia patients are on their own. Was not really attacking you personally, but I have no interest in seeing who can "out talk" each other , cut and paste links that people ignore, and attempt to show my literally intelligence by looking up case studies and medical terms.
And by the way, this last comment: "Some people believe they have been abducted by extraterrestrials. Doesn’t mean we have to believe them" is a little passé don't you think? Sure sounds like a Tin-foil response to a big issue. Children are not aliens.
#749 JGC Interesting article you should read-
Why Are You Not Dead Yet?
www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science_of_longevity/2013/09/…
#749 JGC Dumb- "viral"
I'm wondering why ken expects us to read her links when it's pretty evident that she doesn't.
some say vaccines mess with genetic makeup …. oops.. this that out of line as well?
It's not "out of line", it's just incredibly stupid.
(who are you defending)?
If you can't identify whom people are defending, and have to ask, you should consider the possibility that they are not defending anyone, and that the 'defense' is all in your imagination.
I’m wondering why ken expects us to read her links when it’s pretty evident that she doesn’t.
She has explained earlier that she does not have time to read the links she passes on, so you cannot expect her to know whether they are relevant, or valid, or interesting. Presumably your time is less important, and the hope is that you can do the homework and give her a summary of the links' contents.
Personally not going to read any more of ken's links unless they're in Russian. I suggest we all adopt this policy.
herr doktor bimler, I just have to say, you crack me right up. Thank you for making me laugh quite frequently.
Hey ken, how's the study of BCG going? Any other decades-old vaccines you've learned the existence of today?
RE: the article on slate--you seem to be trying to argue because things that are not medical interventions also effectively save lives we cannot consider the development of safe and effective vaccines to be the most effective medical intervention developed. I don't see how that rationally follows.
And re: "Dumb- "viral"", I'm a loss to understand what you're trying to communicate by this--perhaps you could expand a bit?
Jake has a new post up, where he appears to try his hand at a little science.
http://www.autisminvestigated.com/jama-study-mmr-vaccine-autism/
I rather suspect that he took a page from Hooker's playbook - reanalyze data from an existing study using the wrong tools and methods until you find something you like.
However, I don't have the chops to prove this, so would one of you other minions look at this and see if I'm close?
Proper Johnny
Accept no substitutes
I think SBM medicine has made greater achievements
In #722 JGC stated -
"what would those great achievments be, ken? The only one that I can think of off the top of my head that comes close might be the development of surgical anesthesia, but I seriously doubt that comes close to saving as many lives as does vaccination (the WHO estimates that measles vaccination alone prevents between 2.5 and 3 million deaths every year)."
I suggested in #751 he read this article to put vaccines in perspective.
It was not addressed to anyone else.
Anesthesia?
#754- I was not about to feed someone an answer, just asking a question. They could have said "no one" themselves. Thanks for the Psych lesson anyway. Quite the viewpoint and somewhat correct, but this is how all the manure starts and nothing gets done.
some say vaccines mess with genetic makeup …. oops.. this that out of line as well?
It’s not “out of line”, it’s just incredibly stupid
Ok good doctor,
Let us view your white papers on the subject, as you see you too are attempting to make statements patently true (by stating they are false) and the narrative then works then to your advantage. Another classic move. When I say classic, I mean old and tired. Give us something we can use.
JGC How exactly have you established that those ‘exploding rates of chronically sick children that cannot be explained by the medical establishment’ are due to the overuse of vaccines, Theo? Be specific.
Its a very good theory backed up by defecting Medical doctors, Studies and scientists who are raising the issue ok? I never said it was the ONLY cause. I firmly believe its a contributing cause. That my belief ok.
Now please be so kind and answer my question
Its your turn. What is causing chronic disease in children?
Be specific....I am asking for the cause. Forget about the growth rate lets stick to the actual diseases and help me understand what is happening ok.
http://mchb.hrsa.gov/chusa11/hstat/hsc/pages/212chc.html
JGC How exactly have you established that those ‘exploding rates of chronically sick children that cannot be explained by the medical establishment’ are due to the overuse of vaccines, Theo? Be specific.
Its a very good theory backed up by defecting Medical doctors, Studies and scientists who are raising the issue ok? I never said it was the ONLY cause. I firmly believe its a contributing cause. That my belief ok.
Now please be so kind and answer my question
Its your turn. What is causing chronic disease in children?
Be specific….I am asking for the cause. Forget about the growth rate lets stick to the actual diseases and help me understand what is happening ok.
http://mchb.hrsa.gov/chusa11/hstat/hsc/pages/212chc.html
@Noah
Are you saying that because my child has autism my child is not beautiful?
#763 Absolutely not... saying they "are" beautiful. Sorry you took it that way. Just saying how sad it is that they have to go through this. I too, have 2 Grandkids that have it as well.
@Theo - I particularly liked this page:
http://mchb.hrsa.gov/chusa11/hstat/hsc/pages/209vpd.html
I don't like these stats.
Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD)
Data & Statistics
www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/data.html
And these stats-
"Data from the study showed that developmental disabilities (DDs) are common: about 1 in 6 children in the U.S. had a DD in 2006–2008. These data also showed that prevalence of parent-reported DDs has increased 17.1% from 1997 to 2008. This study underscores the increasing need for health, education and social services, and more specialized health services for people with DDs."
www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/developmentaldisabilities/features/birthdefects-dd-k…
Well, ken, if you don't like the stats, we can always go back to what we did with those kids when I was in school in the 1960s...either put them in the "retard room" in a public school, or insist that they were uneducatible and throw them into an institution. Or, the last alternative - parents just keep the kids home full time and they are ignored by everyone.
I honestly don't think there is more developmental disabilities. I could name several in my classes throughout school who were probably in that group, just not severely enough to be isolated like the one boy in my class who would throw tantrums so severe that he would toss the desks across the room, and it took the principal and 3 other male teachers to subdue him enough to remove him. Or the "weird" kids who never fit in. No, they never had diagnoses THEN. But I'd easily bet a lot of money that if they were children today, they all would.
You can't measure things where the definition has greatly changed in 40 years by comparing years across the board.
It's highly likely that ken didn't read past the bit she posted, or she would realize that the "1 in 6" figure includes kids with any DD, including learning disabilities, ADHD, etc., not just ASD. Autism prevalence is listed at 0.47%.
#769 # 770 Way too too stupid answers. Neither of you are qualified to render any opinion.
Thanks ken for the citation. Now would one of you care to put forth a cause of all of these chronic diseases and DD disorders occurring in children? Beuller bueller?
Genetics, better diagnosis and screening are not valid answers.
Causes please.
@ justthestats I will get back to you. Your at the back of the bus
Mike Adams is a lunatic and homeopathy is placebo "magic water". Yes, vaccines work. That's about it as to the "opinions" I will post. You don't like my links- don't read them. Some lurker might. Resorting to demeaning invectives will have no effect on me whatsoever.
Oh one more - Dr Jay Gordon seems the most reasonable poster I've read on this blog in regards to vaccines and one who is actually qualified as a pediatrician.
clueless ken: "#769 # 770 Way too too stupid answers"
About that "1 in 6" figure. How much is that per a hundred. Do some simple math: one divided by six times 100% equals what?
Now look at a graph of a normal distribution. You see that within one standard deviation is 68% of the data, and in this case "population of children tested."
Let's see how many of that population is below one standard deviation from the mean. So here is the math: 100% minus 68%, and that result is divided by two (to exclude those that are one standard deviation above the mean).
What are the two results? Are they similar or are they different? Do you understand what that means?
ken #774 - Dr. Gordon has stated that he believes parents should follow their intuition when deciding which shots to give their kids. When my dr. told me about the Prevnar shot, my intuition was that because our son was healthy and robust, had no pre-existing conditions, was breastfed until he was 3.5, he didn't need it. My intuition told me he'd be fine. He is our 8th child and we've never had a hospitalization with any of our kids.
When he was 3, we very nearly lost him to Pneumococcal Pneumonia. Emergency intubation, air transport in respiratory distress, 9 days in intensive care, "sickest child in PICU."
One of the things that became painfully clear to me through that awful ordeal is that our intuitions can be 100% wrong, even when it comes to our beloved kids.
Let us view your white papers on the subject
"White papers"? I think those are what governments publish. I am not a government.
Gordon pushes homeopathy. See http://drjaygordon.com/alternative/earinfections-3.html
His advice on trading a cold? http://drjaygordon.com/alternative/natural-cold-remedies.html
Colloidal Silver? And you'd take medical advice from Jay Gordon? You are an idiot.
Proper Johnny
Accept no substitutes
"When he was 3, we very nearly lost him to Pneumococcal Pneumonia. Emergency intubation, air transport in respiratory distress, 9 days in intensive care, “sickest child in PICU.”
One of the things that became painfully clear to me through that awful ordeal is that our intuitions can be 100% wrong, even when it comes to our beloved kids." Sicksuckingmooma
Nice appeal to emotion and nice anecdote. That means all vaccines must work then? We know nothing about the lead up to the Pneumonia and we know nothing about how the child was managed, are we to assume that you thought not having him vaccinated had any bearing at all on this event?
Did the child get filled with antipyretics for weeks leading up to the hospitalization, was he given antibiotics..............
What was the child's diet like.............there is so much missing from the context of your post I can only assume you are a plant, not one with green leaves of course.
More brown logs in a sea of urine............ let's have some science for a change.
"Its a very good theory backed up by defecting Medical doctors," JCB
Well doctors have been totally responsible for the looming antibiotic crisis because they hand them out to placate winging mothers apparently. How much professional discipline does that take?
Well done Theo, they do insist on polishing turds and trying to dish it up as science.
Noah @ #750:
Stick around sunshine. I DON'T pull punches, and I don't tolerate people twisting and distorting what I say (ie lying).
Not at all. Physicians in the past did not have the tools and techniques that are available now. It's neither belittling to say that they wouldn't be able to detect what we can detect now, nor surprising that they wouldn't.
Fair enough. Now tell us YOUR credentials.
Autism is typically only diagnosed at 18 months at the earliest. It's not the case that baby pops out the womb and gets an autism diagnosis slapped on him/her. Also, there are a number of diagnostic tests that must be performed before the diagnosis is given. It's not that simple.
Commenting on your intelligence while misusing "literally" makes you look like a poseur. Also, around here if you post a link, the "shills and minions" (as we call ourselves) won't ignore it. One (or more) of us will click on it, read what's on the other side and tell everyone if the linker is trying to bulldust.
Maybe, but it illustrated my point that just because somebody says "X" doesn't mean we have to believe it. If you can think of a better turn of phrase to make that point, I'd like to hear it.
“Nice appeal to emotion and nice anecdote.”
Thanks. It happened in August 2014, so it’s all still very fresh and difficult to talk about.
“That means all vaccines must work then?“
I assumed they did, but our GP told me that Prevnar protects against ear infections. I didn’t think that warranted a shot. And I wouldn’t have thought pneumonia could be life-threatening in a healthy child. I didn’t think it was necessary.
“are we to assume that you thought not having him vaccinated had any bearing at all on this event?”
I never would have made that connection if the doctor hadn’t told me that it did. Of course, he could’ve been lying, which is what another anti-vaxxer told me.
“Did the child get filled with antipyretics for weeks leading up to the hospitalization”
No, he started a fever on Tuesday evening, which continued on Wednesday. On Thursday, he woke up gray and wheezing. I’ve always been told to give antipyretics sparingly for viral infections (which is what I thought this was).
“was he given antibiotics “
He was given IV antibiotics in the helicopter.
“What was the child’s diet like”
He’s a toddler. We get as much fruits, vegetables and protein in him as we can. Thankfully, he’s not a picky eater.
“I can only assume you are a plant”
I wish.
Thanks so very much for posting, Still Shaking Mama. I'm sure it is difficult to talk about, to say the least. It's to your credit that you're doing it. And I'm glad your son is all right.
Thanks, Ann. I just couldn't let the glowing praise of Dr. Gordon go. My "intuition" failed me so many times during that ordeal. I thought the Med-Check dr. and then ER doc were both completely overreacting (small town). I almost stopped them and took him home, rather than let them start the IV. He had stopped wheezing when I put him in his car seat and said he was "fine." He sat very quietly in the waiting room for 45 minutes and during the first exam. And then we found his O2 sats were 78, and all hell broke loose. The doctors couldn't believe he'd only been sick for 36 hours.
He's almost completely caught up on his shots now, as are the rest of our kids, all the way up to the 19yo! Never again!
@ JGC, Lawrence, Chris. Hairy doctor
Now would one of you care to put forth a cause of all of these chronic diseases and DD disorders occurring in children? Beuller bueller?
In 2007, the parents of 22.3 percent of children reported that their child had one or more of 16 chronic physical or mental health conditions. The five most commonly reported conditions were asthma, learning disabilities, attention deficit or attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADD/ADHD), speech problems, and oppositional defiant or conduct disorder. The least commonly reported conditions addressed in the survey were brain injury or concussion and Tourette syndrome.
http://mchb.hrsa.gov/chusa11/hstat/hsc/pages/212chc.html
Genetics, better diagnosis and screening are not valid answers.
Causes please.
Proper Johnny back in stellar mode
Lowercase johnny: When you're reduced to making statements about excrement, maybe you should consider unconditional surrender.
THEO: Here's another possible explanation for all those chronic conditions. You, personally, are responsible for all of them, because you practice black magic. Tell me, why should we not accept that as a possible explanation?
Well, certainly the rise of childhood obesity has contributed to increased prevalence of juvenile diabetes....studies have also shown that ADD / ADHD have been "over-diagnosed" over the years, and certain allergies can be linked to climate change because of a change in the distribution of pollen and plants over the past few decades.
Attempting to link any and all childhood conditions to a single source, despite them being completely disparate in part of the body effected and distribution among the population (there is no uniformity) makes no logical or rational sense.
You and others continue to cry "Unicorns" when the hoofbeats are mere horses...and in your case, you aren't even at Unicorns, you're claims fall into the realm beyond merely fanciful and down the rabbit hole in to full-blown reptilian conspiracies.
Do you mean categorically? And if so, why not?
I mean, if the evidence shows they're factors, what invalidates them?
Julian # 782. Thanks for the replies always. No I won't be sticking around even though interesting. Info sharing is good, but in the end, it is either one side or the other. What brought me here was a article of David attending a trade show of sorts where he utterly dismissed all there as preying on the attendees and attempting to cash in off of misery. Never considering really that some may actually be trying to offer public information that could and should be considered. Like you in another article, he threw in Chem Trails into the mix at the bottom of the page which is your version of aliens. Combining these so called conspiracies together I am sure seems appropriate to you and David out of frustration, but proves the theory that this Blog should not even exist as minds are made up. How demeaning to the issue of Autism and the like when mixed with Chem Trails and aliens. First comments were that Hospitals could not possibly gather info on 1M of births. Then stated that the diagnose occurs around 18 months, which takes the burden off the birthing hospital. Sorry, if I had the weight of the Federal Government behind me and wanted to get a closer snapshot of this number, I would get it. On 1 and 68, you said you doubted it. Even more reason to find out what the number might be and maybe not as bad as this as you allude to. Almost like you are defending and have no interest in updated numbers only why it cannot be done. I "literally" don't care if every word is used in perfect context and you view this as a sign of intelligence. A poseur ?, I guess if I am being graded here. When things like this are said, the whole conversation is null and void. A poseur, well guilty as charged. I am not a Professor, scholar or think over highly of my intelligence as some seem to here. There are surely many other scientists other than David that spend their entire working life on these subjects, that don't throw in Chem Trails, Aliens and the like into their "serious" discussions. I don't care if he is Oncologist and uses the available tools that are in place. No issue there, but he seems to have an opinion on every discipline and disrespectful to others in specific fields of interest who may be actually looking for answers, alternative or otherwise.
Noah: Respect is earned, not given.
Gray Falcon,
Wise words. Noah may find the judicious use of paragraphs is a good way to start earning or at least to stop losing.
Uhhh…no, it isn’t. Perhaps you’re not aware of the definition of the word theory as used in the natural sciences (a unifying and self-consistent explanation of fundamental natural processes or phenomena that is constructed of corroborated hypotheses, and which comprehensively, predictively, and tentatively explain all observations within its scope)? The idea that vaccine overuse is asscoiated with development of chronic diseases is not only nothing other than conjecture unsupported by evidence but in fact is contrary to the body of existing studies which have addressed the anti-vax 'too many too soon' meme.
Thank you, theo, for explicitly admitting you have no evidence supporting your claim that overuse of vaccines is responsible for ‘exploding rates of chronically sick children that cannot be explained by the medical establishment’, and that instead it represents nothing other than an article of faith.
Re: cause of various chronic illnesses, you can find much more detailed explanations with trivial web searchs through Pubmed than I can reasonably provide in this forum. ADHD, for example, has a strong genetic component (see PMID: 21247556, PMID: 19506906 and PMID: 17679637), increased risk of ADHD is associated with environmental factors such as cigarette smoking and alcohol use during pregnancy and exposure to high levels of lead from plumbing fixtures or paint still present in older buildings (PMID: 20823730, PMID: 18245408, PMID: 19933729).
I’ll note I’ve found no evidence associating ADHD with routine childhood vaccination.
Why not, if those are the answers the evidence supports?
I've privded you with citations indicating the contribution of genetics to ADHD in my last post, and with respect to autism spectrum disorders a recent Danish study found "Changes in reporting practices can account for most (60%) of the increase in the observed prevalence of ASDs in children born from 1980 through 1991 in Denmark." (PMID:25365033). The recent CDC report that noted the prevalence of ASD's is now 1 in 68 noted explicitly that improved ability on the part of clincians to detect and accurately diagnose peole with ASD's is a singnificant contributor to the increase.
And Noah obviously doesn't know the difference between an oncologist and a surgeon...
Surely the increase in diagnoses of ADHD and learning disabilities of various sorts has nothing to do with the access to educational accommodations that said diagnoses can secure. And the increase in ASD diagnoses must also be completely unrelated to the various supports that such diagnoses can give access to.
Oh wait, THEO FORK just doesn't believe in any of that. Or something.
Noah @790:
You're new to this, aren't you? Those people are offering autism "cures". I've yet to read one that works, and many I've heard of are harmful, even dangerous. Bleach enemas, parasitic worms, chelation, GF/CF (which works if the autistic has a gluten or casein intolerance, but not otherwise). These people are not "trying to offer public information that could and should be considered". They are trying to prey on parents.
You're adorable. There are plenty of blogs that push other viewpoints. Are you going to claim that those blogs shouldn't exist because the people there have also made their minds up?
False. I said that it takes a heck of a long time to collect and process the data from 1 million births. Stop misrepresenting what I said.
I called you out for that exact misrepresentation before. What I actually said was:
The operative word there was INCREASING. Stop putting words in my mouth.
Except in many cases those people are looking for "answers" that have already been refuted by the evidence. Vaccines and "toxins" do not cause autism, yet many "autism treatments" proffered by these people are for "vaccine damage" or "heavy metal poisoning".
I earlier asked rhetorically if you were new to this. I now realise you are new to this.
You have so much to learn.
ken, I am waiting for you to complete the simple math problems since you claimed to be so much smarter than MI Dawn and JP (“#769 # 770 Way too too stupid answers”).
Do you even know what a normal distribution is?
Easy on ken, folks. She's probably still immersed in discovering IPV today in light of yesterday's revelatory BCG finding.
Lacking any particular intellectual acumen or accomplishments himself, Noah prefers to take pride in his own ignorance and/or sloppiness, so that he may accuse others of elitism.
NO.
But Smurfs are so cute!
I am asking for ROOT CAUSES. Ok? not just 1 cause.
Saying genetics is an easy way out, and not the correct answer.
Here is why.
GENES
The giddy back-slapping decoding of the human genome, has given way to a more sober view of the limits of genomics and the remarkable understanding of what we all knew intuitively--that how we live, the quality of our relationships, the food we eat, how we use our bodies, and the environment that washes over us and determines much more than our genes ever will. ~Dr Hyman
Now that we cleared that up
Sure we have better diagnosis and screening but what CAUSES kids to have all of these chronic problems. Allergies, learning disabilities, speech delay. ADHD? ROOT CAUSES As stated earlier forget about the growth rate focus on the chronic diseases. And ask
what could be causing these problems?
@lawrence Attempting to link any and all childhood conditions to a single source, despite them being completely disparate in part of the body effected and distribution among the population (there is no uniformity) makes no logical or rational sense.
Good thing you are not head researcher with that pathetic attitude myopic understanding. You make this more difficult than it actually is.
@JGC your getting warm citing cigarette smoke and lead.
Any other ROOT CAUSES?
THEO- The root cause is you, you're a warlock.
@Gray - I agree...only a magician could come up with that kind of bull out of thin air.
His parents must be so proud.
But we haven't cleared that upTheo, all you've offered in support of your claim that recognizing genetic contributions to chronic diseases is a known logical fallacy termed an argument from authority.
And I would suggest the next time you're forced to resort argument from authority because you lack evidence to support your position, you don't choose as that authority someone with their own entry in the Encylopedia of American Loons
http://americanloons.blogspot.com/2013/11/789-mark-hyman.html
#799 Delphine - You reek of British Colonialism and the damage to Africa. Pro Mau Mau
@Lawrence- Frankly, I'm not sure he understands that "Because I said so, that's why!" and "Because I really, really believe it!" are good enough reasons for us to believe him.
Let's clean that up that first sentence a bit:
But we haven’t cleared that up Theo, all you’ve offered in support of your claim that recognizing genetic contributions to chronic diseases is invalid is a known logical fallacy termed an argument from authority.
"Allergies, learning disabilities, speech delay. ADHD? ROOT CAUSES As stated earlier forget about the growth rate focus on the chronic diseases."
Allergies are not considered part of the one in six that ken was bemoaning, since that was on developmental disabilities. While allergies are often genetic, they are not developmental disabilities.
I sincerely doubt that THEO even knows what a normal distribution is or means, and the difference between developmental disabilities and chronic diseases.
#798 Chris
I'd like to see a "normal distribution" of empathy among all of you without the self-serving snide and egotistical displays of rote intelligence.
ken, I mostly reek of wet dog. When you give 1/1000th of what my parents gave of themselves in aid of the collateral damage of said Colonialism, then I'll start to listen to whatever you have to say on Mau Mau. In the meantime, keep up with your reading. There's a whole world out there just waiting for you to discover it -- OPV, Hib, PCV-7, MMRV, DTwP, DTaP, Td, TT...
ken you've mastered intradermal with BCG! Intramuscular and beyond, keep reading, I know you can do this!!1!
#812 And what exactly is your expertise?
I know all of it- and there is absolutely no evidence that it's not too many, too soon; no one on this blog has provided the evidence that the current schedule is safe.
I'm the daughter of two physicians and granddaughter of a surgeon all of whom left the UK to work in developing countries. I work in development for a large NGO with a specialty in MNCH in SSA. I grew up in what's now the DRC as well as a smattering of other countries, LDCs and developed. That's your short answer. I am not a medical doctor. I'm not an expert on vaccines. I'm just surrounded by folks who are, to include two of my siblings.
You don't know all of it, ken. You didn't even know BCG existed until approximately 18 hours ago, a vaccine used on people since the early 20s, millions of them now, all around the world. As for the rest of your too many too soon current schedule not safe, enough. Don't you people get tired of spouting the same old nonsense, day after day, year after year? Who spoon feeds you this garbage? If you're so smart and "know all of it", why are your critical thinking skills so poor as to believe this tripe?
ken, so you really have no idea what a normal distribution is or means. Because the level of intelligence and empathy on this site is quite reflective of that. There is normally distributive range between "Sid Offit's" terrible quips about sick children, to the very often noted concern for vulnerable children on the other side of the mean.
Uhhh..you do realize that's not how it works, right? That we can't conclude that a casual association exists based on nothing other than a lack of evidence the causal association does not exist?
Otherwise, based on your own argument, you'll have no choice but to accept that Theo is in fact causing all those chronic diseases by his practice of black magic, as there is no evidence demonstrating that isn't the case.
# 800- read again if you can really see such archaic comments that your way superior mind cannot process. I was called a poseur. Definition of POSEUR. : a person who pretends to be what he or she is not : an affected or insincere person.
I tried to be honest in my comments that you all here should be able to handle, but now I am dishonest and affected? Sloppy? Think not. Even by your very insightful and demeaning comments to the contrary. JP, I did not ask what you have accomplished nor do I care, other than by your own unstated proclamation of (something?) I have to assume. There is elitism in this world, but I hope no here is associated and I did not ever say they were. But by basically stating you are better than the next poster in a thinly veiled way, then can accept that label with my compliments. Go cure cancer. Just the mere fact that you respond means my "sloppiness" at least got a flutter from you. And yes, I know what acumen is. It comes in many forms and people have many talents.
Julian, no ill will. Thanks for the comments and I guess I will take my sloppiness elsewhere. I find it refreshing to vent, but also waaaay frustrating as well. I sure you all do too. Too many theories out there that are just that. However when a hard line is drawn that states that there is nothing that could be wrong with any process or problem, I guess we refer back to lead paint and asbestos historically. I know you will eat that comment up, but a bit true. There is some talking down here on this tread, and I am sure that is true of most. Maybe all in too deep to see it. I hope some good comes from this however and people learn by disagreeing (no matter how "sloppy or seemingly "un-intelligent")
JGC I actually thought you were thoughtful and remotely smart but I seem to have stumped you. Just because a blog calls a person a loon is irrelevant.
For the 3rd time. What are the ROOT CAUSES of chronic diseases in children?
What is your working theory right now? I don't need CONCRETE evidence I need a solid well thought out theory from all of you.
Genes? for the love of God?! only preprogrammed robotic MD's think that.
I am waiting
Looking forward to further studies www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=13563&page=161 Study Designs for the Safety Evaluation of Different Childhood Immunization Schedules
ken: "and there is absolutely no evidence that it’s not too many, too soon; no one on this blog has provided the evidence that the current schedule is safe."
Knock yourself out: Increasing exposure to antibody-stimulating proteins and polysaccharides in vaccines is not associated with risk of autism.
That has been posted a few times as part of Vaccine Safety: Examine the Evidence (though the web address changed, the proper one is in the link I provided).
You really should familiarize yourself with basic statistics. You would understand the numbers in the posted papers better if you understood things like normal distribution, mean and standard deviation.
ken, take a look, please. https://www.coursera.org/course/stats1
Study Designs for the Safety Evaluation of Different Childhood Immunization Schedules
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=13563&page=161
And for the third time theo, different chronic diseaseswill have different etiologies--the 'root cause' of MS will not be the same root cause as ADHD which will not be the same route cause as Duchenne's MS, etc.. If you're really interested in becoming familar with the current 'working theory' for a particular disease you'll have to read the current literature regarding that disease, which is easily discoverable by searching Pubmed and similar databases.
As for "Genes? for the love of God?! only preprogrammed robotic MD’s think that", in a previous post I provided seveal links to articles which discuss evidence supporting a causal association between genetics and ADHD. Pick one or two and explain to us all how the evidence the authors provide fails to support that conclusion.
ken, do you know what you've linked to? Can you please describe?
THEO @ 803:
As has been pointed out, Dr. Hyman is not a reliable source.
ken @ 814:
In science, you can't prove a negative. Put simply, we don't have to prove the current schedule is safe, you have to prove it isn't. Time for you to put up or shut up, ken.
#822 Had stat 50 years ago. Had to take it for a course in Experimental Psych. No thanks.
Suggest you read www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=13563&page=161
Study Designs for the Safety Evaluation of Different Childhood Immunization Schedules
#825 Huh? I don't spoon feed.
Oh, as as for "Just because a blog calls a person a loon is irrelevant?"
The fact that he's included on a list of individuals characterized as loons may be irrelevant, but the fact that he is a loon is not.
Note also that even if he were not a loon, you would still be offering nothing other than an argument from authority rather than evidence in your attempt to declare embracing a genetic origin for soem chronic diseases invalid
ken, that's the third time you've posted that link. Can you please describe what it is you've linked to and what it's telling you? I'm merely asking you to stand behind your source. That is not the same as spoon feeding.
Sorry basic math is so yucky to you ken, that Stats I on coursera is free and would likely do you some good.
@THEO
Let me explain this to you with a metaphor. Not every car problem is mechanical. If you bury my car in snow, I can sit in it and do things all day and it won't go. But that doesn't mean that no car problems are mechanical. If the gas pedal is broken, it doesn't matter where you put the car; the only direction you can get it to go is down.
In the same way, it doesn't matter where you put a child, or what you feed or do to her; if her genes don't contain the instructions to make a functional copy of a certain protein, she's not going to make a functional version of that protein, and any copies she does produce of that protein won't do what they need to do.
So yes, having genes that don't work can cause chronic disease. It's also possible to have marginally working individual genes that fail when you combine them together. Just because not all diseases are caused by genetic factors doesn't mean that none are.
* There were surprises that came out of the Human Genome Project. The facts that gene expression gets regulated, and that genes code for proteins that do stuff in the real world were not among those surprises.
Noah @818:
And why did I call you that? Because:
You were affecting intelligence while using a malapropism. That makes you a poseur.
You have twice distorted what I said. You are either not paying proper attention or being willfully mendacious. Neither reflects well on you.
Where has anyone suggested in this post or the comments that "there is nothing wrong with this process"?
Maybe I'm being a little unkind. I'm guessing English isn't your first language. If that is the case, I withdraw my poseur remark and apologise for it.
Should keep in mind herr doktor bimler's words, upthread:
"She has explained earlier that she does not have time to read the links she passes on, so you cannot expect her to know whether they are relevant, or valid, or interesting. Presumably your time is less important, and the hope is that you can do the homework and give her a summary of the links’ contents."
#830 I'm 72 and a succesful artist. All this posting is theoretical anyway. It's basically irrelevant to me since my children and grandchildren have been vaccinated.
Ciao!
@THEO
ken, they're not bringing up the concept of a "normal distribution" to make fun of you or show off. They're just trying to explain why it's not all that surprising that 1 in 6 kids are in the bottom 16%.
and by THEO, I mean ken in the last comment.
# 833 Just when I was beginning to like you... you did it again. This is "not" grammar class and excuse me and I will have to look malapropism. Yes, doublespeak is my first language and English the second.
You said in a earlier post "you have a lot to learn"
Ok, treat me as a convert (on the subject) not Webster's Dictionary. Since all is laser focused here, please guide me to links that prove without a doubt that the protesters/posters here have nothing really to worry about and go on fretting about things like the economy. Would that not be great?
I am being serious here, even though I have poseur status.
Do you have links to exactly what is in a vaccine shot given to a newborn? Full ingredients as it stands today? Any other scientific opinions that date back from smallpox forward that has historical information confirming there is no issues? Any panel discussion like a Presidential debate that affords discussion and say either for against from accredited professionals?? I am sure these threads are really not 'all" about someone trying to sell a nutritional book or voodoo doll that side steps vaccines etc. I know they are there and I would bet most are concerned with the preservatives and compound make up of these vaccines. Guy selling a book dangerous? Possibly. Big drug company losing/gaining "big" revenue? Quite possibly.
You said I had a lot to learn. Please link the best possible info on what you have regarding history and current vaccine schedule, possible effects vs. known benefits.
One caveat however, if you are to group all "truthers" together, (even though I prefer a different description) I can say I am open to any except on the subject of Fluoride.You could paste all the links you want stating that this substance should be in our water and it would make zero difference. Not even talking about any benefit or harm, just the very simple fact that you can get it so many other places. A dentist will look you in eye and say it is appropriate because they are trained to say it. Not in a evil way, just what they believe. They will not remove ( only reduce after years of these same type of debates) conceding that we can now get it from other sources. Really... Slow and unreactive. Stand to lose face, possible pushback from a legal standpoint, tons of a money and a place to dilute their waste. I am untrusting of total transparency because of things like this. When it comes to kids, we should all be watching.
Makes no matter if you link or not, just curious.
It is clear that the root cause of all but one chronic disease in children is...
lack of beer.
The one disease not cause by lack of beer? Alcoholism.
#834 Thank you for your service with the MNCH (yes I looked it up too. Your ego victory)
I do not know why the IOM added this to their report. I read it
and have nothing to say about it. I said if no one is interested don't bother to read or evaluate.
I read all the links I post. Lurkers might be interested.
Why did they add this appendix ?
Committee on the Assessment of Studies of Health Outcomes Related to the Recommended Childhood Immunization Schedule
Board on Population Health and Public Health Practice
INSTITUTE OF MEDICINE OF THE NATIONAL ACADEMIES
THE NATIONAL ACADEMIES PRESS
Washington, D.C.
www.nap.edu
Appendix D
Study Designs for the Safety Evaluation of Different Childhood Immunization Schedules
Martin Kulldorff1
www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=13563&page=161
#841 It states -
"To date, there have been few comparative studies evaluating the safety of different vaccine schedules. A few of the existing studies have shown that there are cases in which the risk of adverse events can depend on the vaccination schedule used. Hence, it is both a feasible and an important area of study........ "
Genes? for the love of God?! only preprogrammed robotic MD’s think that.
That makes perfect sense. Yes, the vast majority of doctors accept a role for genetic predisposition in autism, but only because they are genetically predisposed to do so.
ken: "#830 I’m 72 and a succesful artist. All this posting is theoretical anyway."
So was lilady. The difference is that she was willing to learn.
Also, a link to several studies was presented to you, with several different designs.
Ken, as a believer in the whole left brain/right brain claptrap as applied to personalities, talents, and abilities, seems to think that, being an artist, she should naturally find statistics "yucky." This is a common enough attitude, but what makes ken really stand out from the crowd is that she nevertheless feels compelled to debate, in a uniquely incompetent manner, on a subject which requires at least a basic understanding of statistics to comprehend.
She complains that others lack empathy, yet she seems not to understand why intelligent people might be offended at the suggestion that they are all a bunch of heartless, robotic egg-heads who lack any sort of "emotional intelligence." "Emotional intelligence," of course, is all right brain stuff, so those left-brain people who are into logic, rationality, and evidence must clearly have sacrificed any and all fellow-feeling for their fellow man, like Odin his eye.
She also seems pretty clueless about why people might feel generally hostile towards her, even though she marched in accusing Orac of conflicts of interest, calling us all shills, implying that we're part of some weird cult of personality, accusing certain people of not loving their children enough, etc., etc., etc. Oh, and generally just being a moron.
^ That use of "fellow-feeling" and "fellow man" in the same clause was a frank abuse of the English language. I am sorry.
"#834 Thank you for your service with the MNCH (yes I looked it up too. Your ego victory" - ken, what does this mean? "service with the MNCH" and why is it a victory to my ego that you looked it up, even though I'm unsure if you understand what I was saying?
I have no artistic talent, ken. Zero, can't paint or draw or sculpt or anything. I'm not a scientist, either. Feel better? I just know enough to listen people who are and I've lived and worked in the realm of public health and seen the negative consequences of low/no herd pretty much my whole life.
JP: "She complains that others lack empathy, yet she seems not to understand why intelligent people might be offended at the suggestion that they are all a bunch of heartless, robotic egg-heads who lack any sort of “emotional intelligence.”"
I am not sure who we lack empathy for. If one reads these articles and comments with actual comprehension one should understand that we are very empathic towards children, those with autism, cancer patients and others.
I don't understand how not wanting children to get sick, how not wanting children to be subjected to questionable treatments like chelation, bleach enemas, etc, and not wanting those with cancer throw away a chance to live longer by spending money on quackery is a sign that we "lack empathy."
Are we being empathetic to the wrong groups? Are we supposed to have empathy for those who equate vaccination with rape or that believe children are property? Sorry, I just cannot dredge up any empathy for Mike Adams and Rand Paul.
Empathy, what it's not:
Further to #849 --
Seriously, ken. When you can find one single instance of any of the people arguing with saying, "Well, I got mine, so the health and welfare of others is basically irrelevant to me, what do I care?" you can start casting stones about empathy.
That's a profoundly unempathetic comment. It's the opposite of empathy, pretty much.
Why did they add this appendix ?
Committee on the Assessment of Studies of Health Outcomes Related to the Recommended Childhood Immunization Schedule
Board on Population Health and Public Health Practice
INSTITUTE OF MEDICINE OF THE NATIONAL ACADEMIES
THE NATIONAL ACADEMIES PRESS
Washington, D.C.
http://www.nap.edu
Appendix D
Study Designs for the Safety Evaluation of Different Childhood Immunization Schedules
Martin Kulldorff1
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=13563&page=161
JP quite accurately describes the left/ right brain nonsense.
( Excuse me if I sound more dis-organised than usual but I've had a few drinks)
That's not to say that people don't vary in their abilities relative to brain areas ( see NVLD/ global decisions/ executive functioning/ sarcasm ) but things just don't line up as neatly as proponents of the aforementioned crappy theory believe. And social cognitive and cognitive differences may exist but that doesn't equate to 'emotional intelligence' vs robotic decision making. And it IS rare that brains' hemispheres remain as incommunicato as these simpletons imagine ( many problems would then occur as we know from studies of people who have little connections between hemispheres - e.g HM)
There's an additional crenellation within this tissue of lies that aligns abilities along a simplified male/ female dimension as well. Obviously this hilarity will include intuition, perceptiveness and empathy as female traits which necessarily determines their enviable mothering skills. So they'd be great at that, awful at mathematics and generally chatty I suppose.
Save us from pseudoscience that enables time worn sexist attitudes.
Appendix D
Study Designs for the Safety Evaluation of Different Childhood Immunization Schedules
Martin Kulldorff1 SUMMARY
To date, there have been few comparative studies evaluating the safety of different vaccine schedules. A few of the existing studies have shown that there are cases in which the risk of adverse events can depend on the vaccination schedule used. Hence, it is both a feasible and an important area of study. As a relatively new field of investigation, the big question is what types of study designs will be most fruitful for evaluating different childhood vaccine schedules.
I questioned the schedule-"too many too soon" with profound empathy for vaccine injured children. I also have profound empathy for children who suffered from VPD.
No one bother to answer the question why was this appendix was added.
You are all too chatty by the way.
JP Delphine Chris Denice et al
Why was this appendix added?
ken, have you noticed a bit of disinterest in your spamming that one thing? You are reminding me of my kids when they were little and kept repeating a request. I told them to just repeat the answer they were given before, and that it will not change.
Also, have you read the study I posted? It answered your question.
ken nicely illustrates her basis for evaluation -
women who post frequently are "chatty" but men who do similarly are called (fill in the blanks)
AND we do have men who post frequently or write long posts
I am not unfamiliar with the condition.
Jesus Fυcking Christ.
What's the title of the volume? What happened to "I read all the links I post"?* Do you mean to say that you read just the one fυcking page? Did it ever enter your head that maybe, just maybe, the answer might be somewhere in the fυcking text?
* I'm still waiting.
I'm too tired to go hunting for Kleps's mention.
I'm just going to leave this here without further comment.
Noah, that information appears on the package insert--a legally required document that accompanies each vial of vaccine packaged. You can find copies of the package insert by googling "package insert" plus "Name of vaccine".
For example "Gardisil" plus "Package insert" will offer several links inluding http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedPr…
-
Dang--blockquote fail. Hopefully the links still work
Lets clear this up once and or all.. Seriously I have a business degree in Finance and I have to do all the heavy lifting around here. You are medical professionals. This is why I don't trust your pharmaceutical model.
Sorry Sir your son has ADHD he has a bad gene there is nothing we can do. However we think we can manage this condition with Amphetamines like Ritalin and Adderai. What they dont tell you... He will be stimulated and dependent on them for life and it will change his brain chemistry.
Now lets look at the new paradigm taking shape.
In the blame game of genetic disorders, genes are credited with the disrupting lives of millions of people around the world. The disruption of any system in the body is blamed as a bad gene effect. Genetics ruling lives of living systems is a Darwinian hangover. The idea that genes control biology is a hypothesis that has never been proved! This is because of the confusion between causation and correlation. There are many diseases that are correlated to gene dysfunction; but the actual aspect of the defective gene being causative of the disease has never been proven,[1] [see also 2 p. 108]. The metaphor of control by the gene has been assumed without argument; the gene reacts to the signals from the environment for both proper activity and abnormal response. It seems that the environment has a crucial role to play in the health of a cell and ultimately, the health of an individual.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3193653/
The decoding of the human genome at the dawn of the millennium carried the hope and promise of the beginning of the end of human suffering. However, after more than a decade of intense exploration of the human genome the burden of human disease and suffering has only increased across the globe. Heart disease, cancer, and diabetes as well as allergic and autoimmune disorders have all continued to skyrocket. Hope has given way to disappointment as scientists have recognized that, other than in single gene disorders likes Down's syndrome, your genes don't determine your fate.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mark-hyman/human-genome_b_803069.html
So please stop with your GENE DOGMA!
The ROOT CAUSE of ALL disease in the body is distilled down to 2 major factors. Drum roll please...................................................................................................................................................................................................
Toxicity and Deficiency. Perfectly explained by epi-genetics
As the team explained, when everything is going well, these markers keep genes functioning as they should. However, they're vulnerable to environmental assault -- factors such as exposure to toxins, bad diets or aging -- and can mutate.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_151026.html#.VOaOobuZ…
The Exposome: Environmental Influences on Health and Disease
In October 2010 Science magazine(ii) published an important paper that reviewed the notion of the “exposome”—the idea that the environment in which your genes live is more important than your genes themselves. What this suggests is that applying genomics to treat disease is misguided because 70-90 percent of your disease risk is related to your environment exposures and the resultant alterations in molecules that wash over your genes.
The question then is how do we measure and change our “exposome”—or the totality of the impact of the environment on your genes. We must address not just one factor but the whole collection of interacting factors that determine health and disease—toxins, food, microbes, internal chemicals including all the biologically active molecules that control inflammation, oxidative stress, gut flora, and other natural processes.
Emerging biomarkers and analytic techniques will soon allow us to map our exposome from a drop of blood, and measure change over time. Using novel treatments that help identify and remove known external toxins (like pesticides and mercury) and strategies that change the internal environment including diet, nutrients, probiotics, and detoxification would help you change your “exposome” and lower your overall disease risk.
Once this new paradigm of understanding how a lifetime of interacting exposures interacts with your genes to determine your chronic disease risk, once the gene-environment interactions are mapped more carefully, then the promise of the genomic revolution can be fully realized.
http://drhyman.com/blog/2010/12/31/the-failure-of-decoding-the-human-ge…
Sorry JGC and the rest but Vaccines are considered environmental toxins in my book and the book of a growing list of defecting medical professionals and scientists. They are observing links of ingredients in vaccines to chronic disease. This is the new working theory being explored....Is it 100% conclusive or proven? NO!
However the caution flags are being raised and the sharks are in a frenzy smelling blood. Its just a matter of time and it makes logical sense to thinking parents who keep getting told the dogma you have bad genetics. We don't believe you anymore
The revolution is ON!
Bwahahahahahaha! You're killin' me!
"Heavy lifting" to you is cut'n'paste from not-so-state-of-the-art journals such as the Huff Po and the International Journal of Yoga. I am not impressed.
And you have a Business Degree. In Finance! You know, I have a Doctorate. In Medicine! But I don't go to business blogs and make a ludicrous fool of myself telling everybody there how wrong they are and how I know it all about the New Paradigm of Global Economics. I'm smart enough to know better. You are not.
There's a popular opinion that doctors make the worst investors (which, in my opinion, is mostly true). In your case, the inverse is true.
Wow, THEO. Just...wow.
And...
You epitomise the arrogance of ignorance. You have NO medical training whatsoever, and yet you think your degree in Finance qualifies you to pontificate on medicine and health. You are Dunning-Kruger personified.
I'm pretty sure THEO Iliya Torbica thinks he knows the REAL TRUTH about a lot of things, like what happened at Srebrenica.
@ #868: Exactly. What's with cranks these days & epigenetics?
I have a business degree myself -- since when is killing off or crippling potential customers a viable business model?
"I have a business degree myself — since when is killing off or crippling potential customers a viable business model?" SHiyte
Well that's what we keep telling them, actually it is good for business, especially pension plans. You pay in all your life and then when you want to retire and go travelling the good old medic finishes you off.
"You epitomise the arrogance of ignorance. You have NO medical training whatsoever, and yet you think your degree in Finance qualifies you to pontificate on medicine and health. You are Dunning-Kruger personified." JOOlytoyspram
Medical training isn't all it's cracked up to be. Most of it is based on medical peer review - might as well be the bible. YOu are Duvet hoover himself
"You epitomise the arrogance of ignorance. You have NO medical training whatsoever, and yet you think your degree in Finance qualifies you to pontificate on medicine and health. You are Dunning-Kruger personified." JOOlytoyspram
Medical training isn't all it's cracked up to be. Most of it is based on medical peer review - might as well be the bible. YOu are Duvet hoover himself.
"Bwahahahahahaha! You’re killin’ me!
“Heavy lifting” to you is cut’n’paste from not-so-state-of-the-art journals such as the Pubmed and the International Journal of medical peer review. I am not impressed. "Tboner
Wahayyyyeeeeeeee. We are back on Pubmed central - go on quote me some citation needed or some crank off about vaccines saving lives. Someone get NOBred a box of tissues, I can hear him getting all worked up
# 862 - Thank you for a direct link without the further comment. I appreciate it.
# 863- I will check out the second link- the CDC, seen it. Seems to be very little to share here though on a such a huge subject that has so many passionately discussing this.
Yes, I am not sure what "qualified" means. I guess a parent that has a child with autism is not qualified. Anyone concerned other than your little club of experts is not welcome. If you don't have a degree in psycho babble... look elsewhere. Lots of grammar check and sentence structure which has "nothing" to do with the grass roots of the issue at all. Assume by your lofty reply that it is a waste of time to be subjected to such trivial and elementary requests. Make your head hurt? There is a forest through the trees outlook that can occur and is happening here. What if a parent was actually coming here to seek answers or even vent and you tend to rip them up as uneducated either on the actual subject matter or just overall "dumb" Like landing in a snake pit. It is too bad that others give you so much fuel for ridicule with all the whack theories ( Bleach? etc.).... and I understand why you push back.
The bottom line..... as I said originally, that you may think that science is not perfect but it is the best we got and there could be nothing really wrong with the process or product. Period.
That is the bottom line, just stay with your convictions and stop scolding and correcting. You are "not" any better than any other parent who has a child with Autism or any spectrum disorder. The ones that have to work everyday with behavioral therapy to try to get back to some kind of normalcy. if you are not one of those .... then keep your comments on intelligence to yourself and try to help those that might come here.
The Chipldren’s Hospital of Philadelphia Vaccine Eduscation Center..... oh and by the way.... this header is totally miss spelled. I am sure you should have cleaned it up before posting. Does this de-value your entire post? I guess so.
Noah: "I guess a parent that has a child with autism is not qualified."
Why? No one has told me, Matt Carey, Calli Arcale and others to not comment because we have children with autism.
This may be because we don't employ "arguments by blatant assertion", actually provide documentation to support our arguments and avoid posting a wall of text.
"What if a parent was actually coming here to seek answers or even vent and you tend to rip them up as uneducated either on the actual subject matter or just overall “dumb” Like landing in a snake pit."
Wait, you asked a question? Forgive me to missing that. Could you try again and not bury it in a wall of text, please?
Went through looking for Noah's question, but could not find any real ones. But I did find this: "I could also care less if someone take a B-17 or Selenium pill in an attempt to help their child."
I sincerely doubt an aircraft museum would allow any child to chew on a WWII bomber, nor take one out on a thrill ride. There are not that many left, and they don't like them getting damaged.
johnny:
You're perseverating.
Repeating something dumb over and over again doesn't make it right. It just makes it more dumb.
I've been ignoring Noah's word salad, but this one pretty clearly refers to casually dosing kids with Laetrile, which he seems to have made up all by his lonesome as a candidate for autism biomeddlers for no other sake than attempting to express indifference.
I know, Narad, I was just thought it was highly amusing.
And please, I hope the "bleach up the bum" crowd don't get it into their heads that consuming cyanide is an autism cure. It is just as ridiculous as chewing on aircraft museum displays.
D'oh.
THEO™ is an impressive example, given that he seems to be under the impression – given the portion of the entry in... the International Journal of Yoga that he decided to cut and paste* – that epigenetics has nothing to do genes.
* Which also goes on to make hay over "pregenetics," the effect of past lives.
^ Well, that was poorly composed, but you get the idea.
I'm pretty sure the Serbian Orthodox Church would find such notions heretical.
#838 Noah
Ingredients of Vaccines - Fact Sheet
www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/additives.htm
#865 Theo Thanks for the link. Dr. Hyman is my favorite.
"#830 I’m 72 and a succesful artist. All this posting is theoretical anyway. It’s basically irrelevant to me since my children and grandchildren have been vaccinated.
Ciao!" Kendoo
Hey Ken, are you a war artist or a peece artist?
"Repeating something dumb over and over again doesn’t make it right. It just makes it more dumb." Tboner
medical peer review, vaccines save lives, medical peer review, vaccines save lives.......................
a tissue a tissue you all fall down
Well, Ken? You expended four comments bleating about needing to be spoon-fed the reason for the presence of Appendix D before dousing yourself with irony and setting yourself ablaze with yet another attempt at condescension. Have you figured it out yet?
#838 Noah
Adventitious Agents and Vaccines
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2631857/pdf/11485673.pdf
Are you addressing the voices, or what? Nobody here is throwing gene dogma at you, as far as I can see.
Of-effing-course, obviously, your genes do not determine your fate. Fate is not a biological concept.
And also of-effing-course, obviously, that doesn't mean your genes do nothing at all, or that what they do is infinitely adjustable via nutrition or any other factor.
That entire quote is a straw-man argument. It's simply not true that the decoding of the human genome at the dawn of the millennium carried the hope and promise of the beginning of the end of human suffering.
As a general rule, the only people who seriously think in those terms -- ie, who think that genetics, or nutrition, or vitalism, or some other singular, all-purpose force is going to restore to us the natural superpowers that we ostensibly enjoyed at some mythical point in the past -- are fascists.
It's one of the defining features of fascist ideology. In fact.
Anyway. Nobody was spewing genetic dogma at you. Calm down.
Theo is throwing around gene dogma, repeatedly copy-pasting Hyman's genetic-essentialist grift:
So the gene-dogmatist that Theo is complaining about is, in fact, Theo.
Whoever coined the term 'nutrigenomics' never thought how scam-friendly it is, and how easily appropriated by shameless grifters like Hyman.
many problems would then occur as we know from studies of people who have little connections between hemispheres – e.g HM
I cannot allow Denice Walter to confound the case of HM (with his bilateral hippocampectomy) with studies of corpus callosotomy.
#893 UC at Davis has a dept of #nutrigenomics"
I remember my first trip to London in the 70's- worst food ever.
I'm not surprised about the antipathy to food. It must be "epigenetic".
nutrigenomics.ucdavis.edu
"Went through looking for Noah’s question, but could not find any real ones. But I did find this: “I could also care less if someone take a B-17 or Selenium pill in an attempt to help their child.”
I sincerely doubt an aircraft museum would allow any child to chew on a WWII bomber, nor take one out on a thrill ride. There are not that many left, and they don’t like them getting damaged."
I came for the science. I stay for the ripostes.
#895 The mission of the Center is to reduce and ultimately eliminate health disparities resulting from adverse environment x genome interactions, particularly those involving nutritional, economic, and cultural factors. Our goal is to devise evidence-based nutritional interventions to prevent, mitigate and delay the onset of diseases such as obesity, Type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular disease, malnutrition and certain cancers. To achieve this goal, the Center is taking an interdisciplinary approach to develop culturally compatible methods and novel technologies to elucidate the complex interactions between environmental triggers, genes, and disease.The Center is a multi-organizational research collaboration between the
Department of Molecular and Cellular Biology at the University of California, Davis, College of Biological Sciences, University of California, Davis, USDA Western Human Nutrition Research Center at UC Davis, and the California Institute for Food and Agricultural Research at UC Davis
The Center is supported by a grant (P60MD0222) from the National Institute for Minority Health and Health Disparities (NIMHD) at the National Institutes of Health (NIH). The Center director is Dr. Raymond L. Rodriguez, professor of molecular biology at the University of California, Davis. Dr. Somen Nandi serves as managing director of the Center's new Global HealthShare Initiative.
Yes most of my comments are just that. Little pieces of words strung together. May offend some, some may pgive pause. I can read pretty quickly so assume others can too. So if too long and rambling... just skip around (or over).
As it is the weekend ... here is something that is more direct.
More of a poll really might there be any interest in considering.
Subject: (and true story)
4 person/doctor Pediatric office. Each Doctor degreed, certified, qualified and each have a subset of loyal patients.
Big Pharma GSK offers a "Rebate" - street name (Kickback) to said doctor for using their services. These rebates are consistent and can range from 3 to 4 figures per payout.
(normally 600-1,200)
3 or 4 Doctors accept this rebate . One does not.
Do you.....
1. Feel there is anything wrong with this program, or just the cost of doing business like that of a sponsor for Nascar ?
2. If you had a choice knowing up front, that one of the four chose "not" to participate in a rebate program from a specific drug company, would that sway your opinion on whether to pick this specific doctor ?
3. Do you find this doctor who "does not take the money" to he higher moral character?
4. Anyone think that these rebates do not occur and this story is a fabrication?
This is over and above all the Rep CSR's who bring in full blown lunches for entire staff and doctors on a weekly basis... consistently. In fairness, lunches would include all Pharma.
#893 HDB How old are you and in what century were you born ?
Dr. Mark Hyman is hardly a "shameless grifter".
Between the unmatched quotation mark and the bizarrely inappropriate deployment of the octothorpe, one might wonder where this lead-in to nothing was scraped up from.
WHO report: 74% of men and 64% of women in UK to be overweight by 2030
www.theguardian.com/society/2015/may/05/obesity-crisis-projections-uk-2…
5. Crack another beer?
#900 full of sound and fury, signifying nothing (your comment)
Dr. Mark Hyman is hardly a “shameless grifter”.
Maybe he does have a sense of shame but conceals it well.
The core of his scam appears to be "Abandon the old paradigm of rigid genetic determinism, which only exists in my imagination! Adopt, instead, my new paradigm of rigid food-gene determinism!"
He knows his targets... worried-well narcissists who want their orthorexia personally-customised.
At the risk of being further off-topic with ken's latest link:
Of course, there are a number of situations in which "overweight" people have better health outcomes than "normal" weight people, including cancer and diabetes. (Quotes on "overweight" because it's a judgment that assumes that BMI is a meaningful number on the individual level and further assumes that being in a specific numerical range is unhealthy, when that's not always true. Quotes on "normal" because it seems to be neither average nor inherently desirable.)
Still, it's good to have an identified source that ken will take as true, namely the Grauniad. Can we trust the entire paper, or just the "society" section?
ken nice one on the Macbeth there but you ruined it with the parenthesis'd (your comment). Stating the obvious, I'm afraid, remember brevity is the soul of wit.
Typos are atrocious on # 898 for which I take full responsibility. Hope it does not detract too much.
The Center [for Nutritional Genomics] is a multi-organizational research collaboration between [...] , and the California Institute for Food and Agricultural Research at UC Davis
I am relieved to see that the involvement of a agribusiness-funded marketing agency is not (in this case) a cause for concern.
Noah, are you trying to suggest that none of us here are aware that health care fraud exists? What points are you trying to make, that people sometimes behave unethically, to the possible detriment of others?
My parents received a large much-needed box of pens in the back of beyond in the late 70s. Dunno why they were short of pens, pen strike, pen prohibition, but this box of pens helped them out and they were grateful to have been on the receiving end of Big Pharma largesse.
AND SO THEY WERE CORRUPTED. THEY IMMEDIATELY INJECTED SCORES OF CHILDREN WITH (INSERT NAME OF DRUG HERE) BECAUSE FREE.
I remember my first trip to London in the 70’s- worst food ever.
I’m not surprised about the antipathy to food. It must be “epigenetic”.
It's these incomprehensible personal asides that make comment threads so interesting.
Dr. Mark Hyman is hardly a “shameless grifter”.
Perhaps you would prefer "not only a connoisseur of woo but a constant source of amazingly nonsensensical statements about health"?
How about "altmed shill [...] particularly notable for his ability to mangle, misunderstand, and misrepresent research in service of his particular brand of woo"?
Shall we just settle for "mendacious charlatan"?
She thinks that you are from the UK, and that she can thus insult you by speaking poorly of 1970s London cuisine. Also, she seems to think that the 1970s London fare that you were ostensibly raised on (oh wait, wrong century, or something) has given you a general antipathy toward food, because that's the only possible reason you might disagree with Hyman. And all of this is apparently "epigenetic," which is supposed to be witty.
I am not quite sure how I feel about my ability to grok ken.
#910 Poor dear hdb- I really have nothing against bangers and mash.
Enjoy!
Dahlings I am an eccentric.
A sadly stupid and uninteresting one, if so, I'm afraid.
#914 You wish.......
No, you're just apparently too dense to figure it out, as with your own links.
I seem to have the distiction of pi**ing off both johnny and JP.
That is interesting.
You don't p!ss me off, ken; you'd have to register on my emotional radar in some way to be able to do that, and you don't. I just find you hilariously imbecilic. The sheer wonderment at the depth's of another person's stupidity and lack of insight is starting to lose its novelty, though.
#918 Can you be more specific?
#918 Can you dazzle me with some of your profound insights on life,love,joy, fulfillment?
Here's your chance to shine and be brilliant.
@the minions:
I've heard that 401 scammers intentionally make their come-ons so preposterous that only the most gullible marks respond, so that they don't waste their time with people who won't end up taking the bait. I think that Mark Hyman was thinking something along those lines when he wrote
I mean seriously? I knew that Down Syndrome is caused by a chromosomal abnormality, not something at the single gene level when I was in middle school. It's just about the first thing they teach you about genetics. There is no way someone work a medical licence wouldn't know that.
The only reasonable explanation is that he threw that in to weed out anyone who knows anything about biology and isn't willing to take everything he says as the absolute truth.
... that you would quit running away from things that you yourself elected to make a stink about in the first place, sure.
Noah @#898 --
What are the terms of the rebate deal? How does it work?
Reposted from the Autism Research Institute's latest e-newsletter.MMS is too dangerous even for the ARI,one of the biggest promoters of biomed for autism.
Clinicians Warn: Chlorine Dioxide Treatment known as "Miracle Mineral Solution" is Unproven, Potentially "Seriously Damaging"
Concerned about reports of negative side effects from a treatment called MMS, ARI reached out to a handful of clinicians and asked them to share their thoughts. Their response:
We recognize the urgency parents may feel when confronted with a diagnosis of autism, which may lead them to undertake desperate treatments such as Miracle Mineral Solution (MMS, a.k.a. CD for chlorine dioxide, or ASEA). Any medical treatment that uses "Miracle" on its label raises serious questions of old-fashioned fraud. In particular, suspicions arise with MMS, a product whose primary ingredient has side effects known to be seriously damaging. We recognize that there are off-label treatments with variable amounts of data that parents and practitioners will attempt. As pioneers in the use of a biomedical approach to autism, however, we maintain that it is critical that a treatment be considered reasonably safe before we give it to children. We do not consider MMS to meet these standards, and it violates the principal precept of medical bioethics: "first, do no harm."
While many families spend years trying to detoxify their children, MMS introduces a known toxin into their bodies. MMS has properties similar to Clorox® bleach, which can burn the upper digestive tract. The mucous threads that children expel during MMS treatment, which have been touted as worms (though laboratory analysis does not support this claim), are the body's method of protecting itself from induced oxidative stress in the lower digestive tract equivalent to the mid-day sun in its ability to produce severe sunburn.
We simply cannot know what, if any, damage may occur in the long term. We have seen severe mineral deficiencies, malabsorption, loss of beneficial flora, and anemia in our patients who have undergone this treatment. The disruption of children's gut epithelium and flora could have unforeseen consequences to their immune systems. At some point later in life, they may be also at higher risk for esophageal or stomach cancers, among other issues.
Some parents of sick children report dramatic improvements in stool as well as other symptoms. Does this mean MMS is an effective treatment? Not necessarily. Nature's strong impulse toward healing is stimulated by stress. Fasting, physical exertion to the point of exhaustion, sleep deprivation, torture, and severe physical and emotional trauma muster the resources of the mitochondria, muscles, mind, and soul to rise to the occasion. While any resulting temporary improvements may seem "miraculous," there are safer and lower-risk ways to induce a healing response.
Given these issues, we advise against using MMS at this time. We hope parents will remain critical of unsubstantiated claims that children have recovered or greatly improved in the absence of objective proof. We also strongly encourage any parents who choose to administer MMS to their children to report it to their physician so that side effects can be monitored.
Sidney Baker, MD; Nancy O'Hara, MD; Suruchi Chandra, MA; Ali Carine, DO; Dana Laake, RDH, MS, LDN; John Green, MD; Kelly M. Barnhill, MBA, CN, CCN; Maya Shetreat-Klein, MD; Vicki Kobliner MS RDN; and Elizabeth Mumper, MD
Something something pearls before swine, oder epes azoy. Actually, what I meant by "lack of insight" is that you're too dumb to realize how dumb you are.
In any case, I'm not in the right mood to wax poetic or philosophical at the moment, and I'd suggest that, rather than trying to make vague demands that somebody else show her brilliance in an arena in which you so ironically think you outclass her, you instead <a href="attend to the matter at hand.
Ahem. The matter at hand.
Seriously I have a business degree in Finance
THEO should meet Iliya ("a bonafide leader in business and no pushover"), they seem to have a lot in common, like sons who will never be vaccinated.
That's not how it works.
Then it's a good thing that they're for every two years.
I think THEO and iliya are the same person. They certainly made the exact same arguments, using the exact same wording and reasoning.
And areas of academic endeavor.
Narad: "… that you would quit running away from things that you yourself elected to make a stink about in the first place, sure."
I ignore pleas to design certain studies by those who clutch their pearls over any "one in six" statistic, since it is equivalent to the Lake Wobegon notion that all their children are above average. I accept the world is not perfect, and that is why the normal distribution exists.
I also know by personal experience that Childfind intake requires that they test not one, but two standard deviations below the mean in certain areas. Also some of those criteria have nothing to do with intelligence. My son qualified for services due to deficits in several areas like expressive speech, etc, but does have normal intelligence.
One more time, Theo: what evidence indicates that at exposure levels achievable by routine childhood vaccination any of the ingredients in vaccine formulations are toxic or otherwise harmful? Be specific.
You must have some-right? If not, your argument ultimately is reducible to nothing other than "Oooooh--ingredients! Scary stuff!"
Dang Sorry, Orac, I borked the email address in my last post.
@Chris:
Re: the bell curve and normal distribution: it's also the case, or at least I've come to the conclusion that it's the case, that even raw intelligence does not necessarily correlate with not being stupid, and vice versa, so to speak. I myself can be phenomenally stupid at times; usually this manifest as doing stupid things, typically on impulse, or even out a perverse self-destructiveness. As I've said a few times in my life, being smart does not preclude being royally f*cked up.
I also don't think that a person's human worth is predicated upon his or her intelligence, or upon any other outcome of the genetic dice roll. I've known people who aren't overly well endowed in the IQ department, say, but who posses more humility, decency, and good horse sense than a lot of - well, for example - tenured professors I've come across. It would be a mistake to think that being really smart precludes having those other qualities, too, though.
^ Sorry about the typos.
*blink*
This has been in the general category of "an apple a day keeps the doctor away" at least since I was in high school.
JP: "I also don’t think that a person’s human worth is predicated upon his or her intelligence, or upon any other outcome of the genetic dice roll. I’ve known people who aren’t overly well endowed in the IQ department, say, but who posses more humility, decency, and good horse sense than a lot of – well, for example – tenured professors I’ve come across. It would be a mistake to think that being really smart precludes having those other qualities, too, though."
Exactly.
Although the thread has gone on several tangents since then, Ken is actually even more wrong about vaccines.
There was , in fact, a vaccine for scarlet fever, developed in 1924 by Drs. George and Gladys Dick. It was discontinued because of poor efficacy and there being many quickly evolving strains of the bacteria that causes scarlet fever. Antibiotics were quickly discovered to be more effective, and the vaccine was phased out when they were introduced.
herr doctor, what was I thinking?
I blithely mixed up HM with that other group of patients.
Serves me right to have drink and respond.
None of us are/ is perfect.
"I think THEO and iliya are the same person. They certainly made the exact same arguments, using the exact same wording and reasoning." Greyflucky
Last time I trod in something - it made exactly the same points as Narad. otherwise known as Nobred
"Noah, are you trying to suggest that none of us here are aware that health care fraud exists? What points are you trying to make, that people sometimes behave unethically, to the possible detriment of others?" Douchine
No, no no, not at all - why would anyone do that. It is a despicable idea, blaming doctors for peecepoor diagnostic skills to keep the bucks flowing. Swine flu vaccine was because the world was falling apart, they got paid you know, still all those kids with narcolepsy, hundreds of thousands of deaths from Vioxx poisoning....... the list goes on and on.
Smokescreens of SBS aka (scientific BS) sprang up with paid, and yes voluntary minions, all pumping the smoke, denying the facts, in a booblebabble of septic weave,
Accept no limitations
What this site needs is a funky bassline
I think I was just trying to make it clear that I'm not one of those Bell Curve types proper, having perhaps made several comments that could be interpreted that way. Or, to put it another way, that I'm not PgP. I didn't think it was particularly insightful.
Also, my brains were/are leaking out my ears due to trying to memorize the lines of a major character - mostly in Yiddish - in a 60 page script, which I need to finish doing approximately today, since tech week starts on Monday. It is not entirely my fault, the procrastination, as the director/writer of the play kept making changes to the script up until yesterday.
JP and Chris have said something important:
it's not necessarily intelligence that predicts how a person relates to reality and other people.
I've come to believe that each person has a set of abilities including intelligence that can be developed or left fallow- although the abilities themselves may each start out at different levels- which are interwoven tightly together. Abilities can be what psychologists measure as well as what they don't take into account.
You can measure person perception skills, reciprocity or recursive thought. Cognitive styles. ASQ. Then there are mental conditions and illnesses that intervene.
But we keep coming across people who have decent educations and who apparently function reasonably well in the real world ( I'm thinking most of the business folk at AoA and TMR) who then fall down one of the deepest rabbit holes there is. I'm don't think that all of them have mental conditions or bizarre manifestations of a particular style of thinking alone.
Contrarians like them may be fuelled by other needs and the social milieu / historical era they live in may play upon their strings as well. Celebrity culture seems to be a trend that inspires many internet raconteurs as well as reality television.
I venture that woo-meisters may have failed in their childhood quest to become scientists or respectable educators- this thread runs through their play acting. Kalichman talks about narcissism being common amongst denialists he's met.
The idea that a random vitamin merchant or a warrior mother can easily critique all of medicine, psychology and education as well as untangle worldwide conspiracies is itself urealistic, even loony.
If you read what the usual suspects write or broadcast, raging anger at successful people, the establishment and medical professionals prevails. They seem to be screaming, "I deserve more!" Hopefully their activities will bring them fame and admiration.
Autism One starts in a few days, we can observe the endless posturing, red carpet, book signings and movie premiers up close.
Anyone live in or near Chicago?
I am generally always happy to have a reason to go to Chicago, but even if I weren't going to be knee-deep in a theatrical premier during half of the conference, I can think of other ways I'd rather spend my money than on registration for Autism One.
But JP you would make a most excellent reporter!
Although listening to them would probably make you want to pull your hair out ( heh).
Narad would be sublime but he may have money issues.
@Narad:
I think the whole "I have come to the conclusion" bit was just to indicate that that was not based on anything except my own observations over a what has still been a relatively short life. I also have had some annoyance with that particular truism, due to the ken-like attitude of assuming that anybody who is BOOK SMURT must obviously have some sort of glaring deficit to even things out or something. I was the focus of this particular false assumption for many years, said deficit usually being said to be in the area of "common sense" or whatever. Having done some subsequent comparisons of myself and the people who felt compelled to cut down the tall poppy, I have come to the conclusion that they were largely full of sh*t.
@Denice:
$99 can buy a lot of beer. Or Malört.
Anyone live in or near Chicago?
I do, but I have better things to do on a holiday weekend.
# 909- Merely asking if anyone felt that this program by GSK is ok and if given the chance that a new patient might pick one Doctor over the other (if full disclosure was given)?
Further if anyone felt that it negates or enhances in anyway influences that could arise?
The one who does not take the rebate has less motivation to accept any new GSK drug that comes on line... pretty sure that could be a least be a "possibility" in any debate.
Do not see why that is too hard to interpret. Looking beyond maybe?
Did not say they were Dr. Evil.
If 3 out of 4 Doctors accept the rebate, was asking "anyone" if they felt this lone doctor was of any higher moral conviction than the others as he/she does not want to be saddled with this rebate as a weight to his/her standing as both citizen or Doctor.
Simple yes or no's here really. I think that is what polls generally are.
#923 - I will get more info for you.
Noah, how does that alleged fraud compare to Andrew Wakefield changes to the data of his small case study of a dozen kids. paying for blood at a birthday party and not declaring his conflict of interest in regards to UK tax funded legal aid from Richard Barr?
And how does what you allege exonerate Mike Adams from comparing vaccination to rape and Rand Paul declaring children are property?
950 - did not call it an alleged fraud. You just did. Was just asking if anyone thought this practice acceptable. Use rebate or kickback, your choice. I am sure ongoing and many are aware.
Cannot seem to be able to get an opinion on that.
This is one Pediatric practice in one city in the USA. Assume this program is far reaching.
Did not know this would an apples to oranges comparison.
Seems like a deflection to me.
I guess if you not do have a comment on whether this rebate program is acceptable in your opinion (and was only asking for a opinion on the specific questions of anyone choosing to comment) then we will not be getting one from you.
...and one less potty mouth in the chorus.
Proper Johnny
Accept no substitutes
Noah: "Seems like a deflection to me. "
Pot, meet kettle.
You are deflecting from above article depiction of several anti-vaccine person by alleging one pediatric practice is doing something. A description you gave without any references but started with "Subject: (and true story). " Why should we believe you?
Did you make it up to deflect from the outrageous actions described in the above article, which are documented at their primary source.
I presume you mean bassline. Anyway, you volunteering to play it?
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/archive/index.php?t-765092.html
#953 - One of the original questions posed was #4 of the original post as noted from # 898
"4. Anyone think that these rebates do not occur and this story is a fabrication? "
Again, a yes or no answer could suffice. Then someone could explain further. Becoming clear that most seem unwilling or unable.
Do these type of questions make some nervous?
Looking for motive?
These simple questions were posed in hopes that someone could engage them. I guess not.
Again, you don't have to believe but only asked you if you did.
Nothing to do with any above article ? and not sure what you might be referencing, but I will back track to check it out.
Noah: "Again, you don’t have to believe but only asked you if you did."
I am not interested in fables, but only evidence. Your little story means nothing unless you provide supporting documentation. The Australian Anti Vaccination Network is not actual evidence.
"Nothing to do with any above article ? and not sure what you might be referencing,"
Are you actually posting your word salad wall of of text comments without actually reading the above article. You actually did not know about these bit:
and
I wouldn't be inclined to spend around two hours each way in transit on the CTA in any event, and it doesn't align with my sleep schedule.
There's also the small issue of not really looking the part for an undercover mission.
# 956 - Again, what in the hell does this copy you have posted twice have anything to do with the questions I posed ? Just asking for an opinion. An opinion. I did not post this original # 898 to follow "the" thread or narrative. Just an original entry, a question of the readers and posters and nothing more. Why can't anyone handle that?
You have now just called me a liar.
No, again I did not read the post that you have referenced twice now, and I read your alert to it the first time. I can see how you may have thought I was following the thread, but I was not. So, have I made that clear? My apologies if I misled.
No one here seems to want to offer a yes/no response for fear they may step out of their own narrative?
Congratulations you have all reduced yourselves to attacking me personally BRAVO BRAVO !#handclap #winning
I am an executive, financial analyst, health enthusiasts, and a new father I look at this from a totally different angle than you.
I asked what is causing chronic diseases in children and none of you had a working theory.
@Tboner and you have a Business Degree. In Finance! You know, I have a Doctorate. In Medicine!
Great then answer the question smart ass! make it easy for my simple brain to understand since you have a doctorate and I only have a bachelors degree. Surely you have a good theory don't you? or are you waiting for the high priest ORAC to tell you?
For the 4th time WTF is causing chronic diseases in children?
JP and NOBRED I envision both of you as court jesters or yard gnomes. useless decorations hehe
JGC
May 16, 2015
They are observing links of ingredients in vaccines to chronic disease.
One more time, Theo: what evidence indicates that at exposure levels achievable by routine childhood vaccination any of the ingredients in vaccine formulations are toxic or otherwise harmful? Be specific.
You must have some-right?
Of course the evidence is all around all of you but your cognitive dissonance and inability to do the mental gymnastics necessary to ANALYZE the data wont allow you to see it.
Conclusions/Significance
Systemic autoimmunity appears to be the inevitable consequence of over-stimulating the host's immune ‘system’ by repeated immunization with antigen, to the levels that surpass system's self-organized
criticality.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2795160/
At 12h after in vitro re-stimulation of the PBMC with pertussis toxin (PT) antigen, 14 immune response pathways, 33 allergy-related and 66 asthma-related genes were found activated.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=18336961
@johhnySmokescreens of SBS aka (scientific BS) sprang up with paid, and yes voluntary minions, all pumping the smoke, denying the facts, in a booblebabble of septic weave,
Accept no limitations LMFAO
If you want to start discussion on unrelated hypotheticals, get your own blog. Or if you must, an open thread on a blog that hosts those, which Respectful Insolence does not.
Don't drop them far down the comment threads about a specific, unrelated topic and then complain when people don't want to answer your questions on that unrelated subject.
FTFY.
# 923 - In response to your direct question. GSK offers a rebate on a quarterly basis. This can fluctuate depending on volume. The average is about 12,000 a year historically in rebates it seems . Did not say if wrong or right.
Ok I get it now. Same thing I felt in the beginning. If not a disciple or devout follower, then not welcome. Pretty creepy actually. These comments everyone avoided like a Big Pharma plague "were" in the sphere of the overall discussion.
Yes this is Orac's blog, no doubt about that. Pretty plain to see.
Seems most here either overly intelligent to the point they cannot even give an opinion on a entirely personal level, or cannot change a gear to offer one. Maybe then, not intelligent enough.
I can feel the little beads of sweat forming on your brow from here. Should I respond? Should I not?
Is it a trap?
Chess move?
If you have an opinion might that poke a little hole in your armor? Either a yes or no has implications to your cause?
You have made it "very" clear I have hit a sore spot (or pocket book). So I could care less if this is the "Big Boy" club or not. So officially kicked off by executive order? So be it.
So go on with the "good work" along with your spell checks and overt criticism.
You consider the observation that you're plainly Iliya Torbica crawled back out of the woodwork with a fresh batch pseudonyms to be a "personal attack"? Did you miss the part where people have been observing over and over that you're a jabbering halfwit who changes the subject when pressed on anything all along?
"GSK offers a rebate on a quarterly basis."
I'd be surprised if GSK was stupid enough to be funneling cash directly to physicians on a regular basis to use their "services", seeing as how GSK was hit with a $3 billion penalty just three years ago for a health fraud case in which they handed out free meals and spa treatments to some docs as part of their illegal drug promotions. Cash kickbacks would be even worse.
I suggest you pass on your knowledge of such an activity (if it exists beyond a hypothetical) to state and federal prosecutors, who'd be eager to handle the case. And there might be a cash rebate (excuse me, whistleblower $$$) in it for you from the government as a percentage of whatever fines were levied.
Perhaps you could cease being coy and inform us which "services" these pediatricians are allegedly using in exchange for purported kickbacks.
"The Australian Anti Vaccination Network is not actual evidence."
I'm not sure they're actual human beings with a full set of chromosomes.
Last one... thanks folks...
This is first person witness comment in her own words so cannot be twisted or interpreted to mind bend gymnastics. Please don't take issue with the forum as probably only one of the very few she has. If not already see of course.
I am sure the great one will take it down. Only 6 mins and urge you to watch it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crqHWOMVnx0
No, you have trotted out a hopelessly underspecified hypothetical and started stomping your feet while crying "What do you think of them apples? Huh? Huh? Huh?"
Your failure to stick the last two flounces doesn't lend much confidence.
Congratulations, you've reinvented the dumbest comment of all time.
Of course, they do have at least one not Sooper Sekrit rebate program.
"I can feel the little beads of sweat forming on your brow from here. Should I respond? Should I not?
Is it a trap?
Chess move?"
Is it safe?
Theo, when you ask a question and the next sentence is a declaration of refusal to listen to any answers that you don't like, why should anyone bother?
damn that pesky aluminum.
@JGC
This strongly suggests that long-term adjuvant biopersistence within phagocytic cells is a prerequisite for slow brain translocation and delayed neurotoxicity.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25699008
By the way I am obsessed with this topic and have numerous reliable sources I use to make decisions. I just need to trust the right research and the right doctors.
I bet you would Call Kelly Brogan MD a Quack too.
This Women is a straight up BADASS! She has come to the other side did the mental gymnastics and GETS IT. Cornell and MIT? must be a MORON? She has some scathing blogs too.
One to watch.
http://kellybroganmd.com/credentials/
As for Mark Hyman he is director of Functional Medicine at the Cleveland Clinic and he is a loon? WTF is a matter with you?
Thank you. But I still don't understand the allegation.
A rebate on what? The volume of what?
Are the doctors buying the drugs from GSK and then selling them to patients? Or....I don't know.
What are the terms of the deal and how does it work? What do the doctors have to do or not do to get the quarterly $$$$? Write prescriptions? Hit sales quotas? Or what?
In case it's not clear what I'm asking --
Are we talking about something like:
If a doctor bulk-purchases enough of GSK's MMR vaccine in a three-month period, there's a rebate?
I assume not, because it's not a kickback. But it's what "rebate" usually means. So I'm stumped. And that's why I'm asking what the terms of the deal are.
Noah, Kelly Brogan is a quack. Just because she attended excellent schools doesn't mean she's not a quack.
I particularly like this: "I would imagine so, but it suggests that surgical birth should be reserved for the fewer than 10 percent of true emergencies that could not otherwise have been prevented by allowing a woman to labor at her own pace, in her own comfort zone, without any interventions… the way it’s been done for millions of years."
http://pathwaystofamilywellness.org/Pregnancy-Birth/birthing-bliss-birt…
Kelly was evidently out hunting and gathering during her Evolutionary Biology courses.
@ Narad:
Oh come on! Anyone can look the part as undercover: after all, this is AutismOne, they have C@nnabis4Autists there!
So you're a hippy- pull your hair back, wear a striped cotton shirt and look awestruck.
-btw- if I can manage to pass at major woo extravaganzas, most anyone can.
O well. I hope someone can get there and report back for our enlightenment and entertainment. I'm too far away and I use ( most of ) my real name online ( so no ID)
@ Delphine:
Agreed. She's a major crank who flaunts her credentials whilst dismissing others'.
She appears with Fearless Parent, PRN, GreenMed, TMR as well as being in every quackumentary to hit the sign-up- to-see-a-film circuit.
Noah is apparently using a variant of the boring dull over used Pharma Shill Gambit. It is not a valid replacement for actual data and evidence.
And, no, Noah I will not bother clicking on any Alex Jones video. Though if you wish to be amused, do read Them by Jon Ronson where hilariously talks about his experience with Mr. Jones.
Also, I did not accuse you of lying. I just asked you why we should believe you, since you did not provide a link to that "true story."
ann: "If a doctor bulk-purchases enough of GSK’s MMR vaccine in a three-month period, there’s a rebate?"
Would it be relevant to point out that GSK does not sell its MMR vaccine in the USA? That would be Merck.
@#978 --
I said "something like"!!!!!
Seriously: Thanks. Might be good to know some day. But that was really just a hypothetical for the purpose of illustrating what kind of info I was requesting -- ie, is this a rebate or is this a kickback?
Because if the former, it doesn't necessarily say anything about their morals. It might. But it might just say something about the size of their practices or whatever..
THEO@972
Totally agree. Thanks for the links!
@Noah you are right we are dealing with a bunch of cowards who can't offer up solutions just sling criticisms That nurse discussing respiratory issues is stunning. Yeah let's give vaccines to 3 lb premature babies.
Insert gum in mouth
Theo, Noah- How do we know that you aren't casting doubts on vaccines because you stand to make a profit? Cure is far more costly than prevention.
Yet Iliya's logo has been deflated. Is it just me, or has there been a spate of irony-fueled self-immolations lately?
ann: "Because if the former, it doesn’t necessarily say anything about their morals. It might. But it might just say something about the size of their practices or whatever."
Yeah, I mention it because if the "scenario" occurred in the UK, there may be different implications because of their NHS.
Are these trolls the worst trolls ever in the history of trolldom, or am I just romanticizing (I know, poor choice of words when talking about trolls) past trolls like Thingy? Noah and johnny and just excruciatingly stupid. They don't even come up with the occasionally funny thing, like Thingy's idea that kids left to themselves will always play on the sidewalk and stay out of the tetanus-laden dirt.
A shout out to Theo before I go. Hang in there and appreciate your comments and attempts to get past the wall here.
You tried to change 'nyms. Sock puppets are not allowed. If you keep posting as "Noah," your posts will go through.
For those who deny vaccine shedding-
MD Cancer Center
The Child Visitation Room provides a safe, supervised area for children when a family member is going to a restricted area...... All children in the visitation room must have a negative screen for recent illnesses, exposure to chickenpox or live vaccines.
If special permission is given for a child to visit a restricted area, they must be screened for recent polio vaccination. A child who has received oral polio vaccine within the past six weeks is prohibited from contact with immuno-suppressed patients.
www.mdanderson.org/patient-and-cancer-information/guide-to-md-anderson/…
Noah, Kelly Brogan is a quack. Just because she attended excellent schools doesn’t mean she’s not a quack.
Kelly Brogan, theocratic anti-contraception campaigner:
http://esciencecentral.org/journals/oral-contraceptives-mind-body-poiso…
#988 Who's not reading? You accuse me of not reading? She is recommending a SAFER method like the IUD.
Candy @985
I hate to admit this, but I kind of miss Sid. Sure, he misrepresented facts (e.g., the actual text of CA law) on a regular basis and he did occasionally go off the rails, but at least there was some logic to his arguments. I could see how he and I fundamentally disagreed.
As for the current crop? I can’t find enough coherent thoughts in their comments to respond to them. In light of lilady’s passing, I shall now thank those of you who have.
#988 Who’s not reading? You accuse me of not reading?
It's not all about you, ken.
And what the fυck is this supposed to have to do with school exemptions?
You've already demonstrated that convincingly. By contrast, the case above is one of your demonstrating that you don't think, either, as though that were necessary.
We (tinw) can't miss you if you won't actually go away, as you keep promising.
Don't worry, "Anna" is now here to lend Iliya some MLM AdvoCaring.
Points to note about this particular screed:
1. The journal is from the Omics stable. Omics journals are renowned as bottom-feeding mockademic puke-funnels that will print anything as long as the cheque clears; non-loons do not publish in Omics journals; the grifters are aware of their negative reputation, so they have spun off a number of 'ghost brands' like the present 'esciencecentral.org' to shake off some of the stench. Because grifters.
http://scholarlyoa.com/2014/12/18/the-omics-publishing-groups-empire-is…
Kelly Brogan is the kind of person who has to pay "Alternative & Integrative Medicine" to publish her deep thoughts. Enough said.
2. The stated uninterest in evidence:
--Note that reference [2] leads to a study of curcumin as an antidepressant, in mice, and the relevance to women and antidepressants exists only in Kelly Brogan's overheated imagination.
This is some high-grade academic incompetence. Did I mention that Ref. [1] in the letter leads nowhere at all? After that I gave up.
3. The language:
"Tacit permissiveness toward reckless unprotected sex"? The central existence of a woman is reduced to "feedback systems that fire up her reproductive age vitality"?
Brogan grudgingly concedes that some women are degenerate sluts who are not content with this: "If it’s not enough to celebrate their right to an optimally functioning hormonal system, and they also want to preserve their right not to have a fertilized egg, then I recommend a non-hormonal IUD".
She also recommends, "chaste tree", which is I can only interpret as "chastity" after it went through the Omics editorial process.
Perhaps Brogan is not personally a feckin' christianist Talibangelist theocrat, perhaps she is only speaking the language of Talibangelist theocracy because that's where the money and influence are.
Hey ken...are you aware that the oral polio vaccine hasn't been used in the USA in many years? And yes, we are all aware that the OPV causes shedding - that's one reason it's used in areas where polio is endemic, to help protect other members of the family who might be exposed to polio. But it's not an issue in the US.
MD Anderson has patients from all over the world, some of whom might have had the OPV recently or might have family members (children, grandchildren) who had. Because of immunosuppression risks, those persons who had OPV need to be kept away from the patients.
It would be really nice if you understood things BEFORE you posted them.
Noah, if as you claim the evidence is all around me it should be a trivial exercise to point it out to me. Please do so.
I'm thinking Noah has to be Iliya--he's referenced the same article about deliberating inducing autoimmunity in mice by repeated immunization I believe Iliya has in the past in an attempt to handwave an argument that the recommended schedule may do the same.
@herr doktor bimler
Chaste tree is an actual tree (I have one in the back yard, I like the shape and the flowers and the butterflies and other nectar eaters enjoy the flowers as well).
It was historically used to lower the libido. Strangely enough it actually has some hormone like compounds in the berries, but nothing that seems to be all that effective for much in the clinical trials.
For the Record calling Kelly Brogan a quack is what is wrong with medical establishment. Why are you so frightened? How about ask this question? Why would a young Medical doctor with impeccable credentials properly trained jump ship and come out against vaccines? WHY? That is the important question not sitting back on your throne and name calling. This is what a paradigm shift looks like folks wake up its happening.
Nearly everything ORAC puts out fall into this category.
What is an error? Put simply, it is a mismatch between our predictions and the outcomes. Put in systems terms, an “error” is an action that looks like a success when viewed through a narrow lens, but whose disruptive additional effects become apparent when we zoom out.
Why do predictions fail to anticipate major complications? Ironically the exquisite precision of our science may itself promote error generation. This is because precision is usually achieved by ignoring context and all the variation outside of our narrow focus, even though biological systems in particular are intrinsically variable and complex rather than uniform and simple. In fact our brains utilize this subtlety and context to make important distinctions, but our scientific methods mostly do not. The problems that come back to bite us then come from details we didn’t consider.
Once an error is entrenched it can be hard to change course. The initial investment in the error, plus fear of the likely expense (both in terms of time and money) of correcting the error, as well as the threat of damage to the reputations of those involved — these all serve as deterrents to shifting course. Patterns of avoidance then emerge that interfere with free and unbiased conduct of scientific investigations and public discourse. But if the error is not corrected, its negative consequences will continue to accumulate. When change eventually becomes unavoidable, it will be a bigger, more complicated, and expensive problem to correct – with further delay making things still worse.
Personally, I think a large part of the brewing paradigm shift in medical science (which I expect to predominate in the near future) comes from the very tension that Herbert describes between the view of bodies, biological systems, as machines that respond predictably and reliably to a particular force or intervention and the view of bodies as “intrinsically variable and complex.” Virtually every area of biological research has identified outliers to every kind of treatment or intervention that are not explainable in terms of the old paradigm, arguing for a more individualized approach to medicine that takes the whole person into account.
As a paradigm is stretched to its limits, anomalies — failures of the current paradigm to take into account observed phenomena — accumulate. Their significance is judged by the practitioners of the discipline. . . But no matter how great or numerous the anomalies that persist, Kuhn observes, the practicing scientists will not lose faith in the established paradigm until a credible alternative is available;
The titanic is sinking and you bafoons are still at the bar getting drunk on shiny turds called peer review and the collective dogma you believe.
http://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/anti-science-you-keep-using-that-word…
Orac already covered that article, THEO:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/05/08/science-you-keep-using-tha…