If there's one thing that will annoy an antivaccinationist, it's to call her what she is: Antivaccine. While it's true, as I've pointed out on numerous occasions, that there are some antivaccinationists who are antivaccine and proud, unabashedly proclaiming themselves antivaccine and making no bones about it, the vast majority of antivaccinationists deny they are antivaccine. They frequently retort that they are "not antivaccine" but rather "pro-vaccine safety" or some such dodge. Most recently, we've seen this tack taken by Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. (and, of course, Bill Maher) himself, the man whose unhinged conspiracy mongering screed was my "gateway" to noticing and deconstructing antivaccine beliefs nearly a decade ago. it's a refrain I first noticed in a big way when the celebrity face of the antivaccine movement, Jenny McCarthy herself, started using it. Whenever I start hearing that "I'm not antivaccine" refrain, I like to dig up examples of rhetoric from the antivaccine movement to put the lie to that claim. Of course, "dig up" is probably the wrong term; I rarely have to look far, and so it was this time..
Mike Adams let it rip, possibly surpassing even what I thought to be the most vile analogy every made about vaccines. It was by an Marcella Piper-Terry, comparing vaccination to rape. True, it could be argued that comparisons to the Holocaust are worse, but let's just say it's a tossup. Not surprisingly, Mikey's latest rants are in response to California bill SB 277, which is a bill currently wending its way through the California Senate that would eliminate nonmedical exemptions to school vaccine mandates. Of course, any attempt to make exemptions to chool vaccine mandates harder to obtain causes the antivaccine movement to go into paroxysms of Holocaust analogies, complete with images of jackbooted fascists knocking on parents' doors in the middle of the night, syringes in hand, to throw the parents aside and vaccinate their children forcibly.
Coming back to the rape analogy, that's where Adams goes with a post entitled Progressive lawmakers in California violate women's rights with SB 277; children to be physically violated by government without parental consent and SB 277 will unleash "medical civil war" in California as parents demand doctors be arrested for felony assault. The level of paranoia in these screeds is truly beyond belief; that is, unless you've never encountered Adams before. Actually, the spin Adams tries to put on this is to make "vaccine choice" a matter of women's rights:
Seriously, this is stupid even by Mike Adams standards. Here's a taste of the written version, but to experience the full stupidity, you really need to watch the video:
California lawmakers pushing the mandatory vaccine initiative SB 277 are almost all Democrats. These are the same people who defiantly defend the right of "a woman's choice" to decide the issue of abortion. We are repeatedly told that abortion is the woman's choice alone, and that no government, no man and no doctor can force a woman to do something with her body against her will.
This also holds true with the issue of sexual encounters, where we are frequently reminded that NO means NO. If the woman doesn't consent, then it's called rape. So what do you call a forced medical intervention that physically violates a woman's body against her wishes? "Medical rape" doesn't seem quite appropriate. There must be a more poignant term for it.
Do you see the the problem with this analogy? It's incredibly obvious. SB 277 has nothing to do with forcing women to receive vaccinations they don't want. There's nothing in the bill that would do that, nor is there anything any pro-vaccine advocate proposes that would compel an adult woman (or man) to be vaccinated against her (or his) will. That's not what school vaccine mandates are about. None of this stops Adams from going full mental jacket antivax on the video, ranting about "toxins" and "formaldehyde" while referring to vaccines "maiming" children and implying that the government will require pregnant women to be vaccinated, thus causing all sorts of birth defects. His antivaccine dog whistles are whistling to the point that even mere humans can hear them behind Adams' cries of "choice," "human dignity," "civil rights," and "human freedom."
There's another aspect of Adams' truly silly analogy here that might not be obvious on the surface. Adams goes on and on about the supposed disconnect between what liberals believe about women when it comes to reproductive choice and giving consent to sex, as well as its anti-corporatism, to what he describes as their advocacy of giving corporations the power to "violate" women with "forced vaccination." Think about the assumption behind this whole line of "reasoning" (if you can call it that). The only assumption that makes this argument coherent (if you can call it that and even then it's still wrong on many other levels) is if you assume that the child is an extension of the woman's body. Thus, "violating" the child by "forced vaccination" is violating the woman. It's hard not to look at it any other way.
Indeed, Adams seems to be doing Rand Paul even one better. Remember how Rand Paul, interrupting a female reporter's question about his stance on school vaccine mandates, said, "The state doesn’t own the children. Parents own the children, and it is an issue of freedom.” Here, Adams seems to be saying that children aren't even property. They're just extension of the woman's body.
Either that, or Adams thinks his audience is too stupid not to discern the difference between forcing an adult woman to be vaccinated (which is not what is being considered, given that every adult has the right to refuse any medical intervention and no one—I mean, no one—is questioning that) and requiring a child to be vaccinated before she can attend school. It could easily be either—or both.
Adams tries to make hay out of claiming that "injection without consent is a violation of the American Medical Association's code of ethics:
A mandatory vaccination policy -- forced vaccination of unwilling recipients -- is, by definition, a medical intervention carried out without the consent of the patient or the patient's parents. This directly violates the very clear language in the Informed Consent section of the AMA Code of Medical Ethics which states:
The patient should make his or her own determination about treatment... Informed consent is a basic policy in both ethics and law that physicians must honor, unless the patient is unconscious or otherwise incapable of consenting and harm from failure to treat is imminent.
The AMA's Code of Medical Ethics statement is very clear: "physicians must honor" the policy of informed consent. In fact, the AMA describes this as "a basic policy in both ethics and law" and only makes exception if the patient "is unconscious" or if harm from failure to treat "is imminent."
Except that, again, this is not "forced" vaccination. Parents can still refuse to vaccinate their children. However, if they do so, then they must realize that there will be consequences flowing from that decision. Children attending school have a right to a safe school environment, and unvaccinated children endanger that environment by making outbreaks of vaccine-preventable disease more likely. Questions like this always boil down to a question of balancing individual rights versus the good of society. Also in the mix is the right of the child to proper medical care, particularly preventative care like vaccines, a right that people like Rand Paul and Mike Adams dismiss completely. To them, the child is nothing more than a possession or extension of the parents.
In any case, as Dorit Reiss explains, the doctrine of informed consent does not trump public health mandates and potential tort liability:
Does the Doctrine of Informed Consent Trump Public Health Mandates and Potential Tort Liability?
To repeat, the short answer is no. First, public health regulation always imposes some burden on the exercise of autonomy. Second, one may have both the private right to informed consent before vaccination and the public health obligation to be vaccinated. And the existence of the doctrine of informed consent does not mean there will be no other consequences to the informed decision that one makes.
And:
Since the famous case of Jacobson v. Massachusetts, states have had wide powers to regulate for the public health – and, more particularly, impose immunization requirements – even at some cost to individual rights. Note that even Jacobson acknowledged that individual rights are not absolute. Laws passed by the states in this context must meet constitutional standards. For example, most scholars see Jacobson as constitutionally requiring that a state allow a medical exemption to immunization requirements.
But as long as they meet constitutional requirements, states may legislate or regulate to protect the public health. The requirements they put in place are not inconsistent with and do not violate informed consent. For example, quarantine laws are extremely coercive, imposing very strong limits on private autonomy – but they are constitutional, and no, they do not violate informed consent (pdf), either. Nor do school immunization requirements – even those without non-medical exemptions.
In other words, Adams' argument, as you might imagine, is a smokescreen without any basis in law or a compelling basis in ethics. Not that this stops Adams from predicting a "medical civil war" in which parents will demand that doctors be arrested for felony assault. Now, I'm not a lawyer, nor do I even play one in the blogosphere, but even I recognize Adams' legal reasoning as being—shall we say?—fantasy-based. He uses as part of his basis a law in Ohio that allows charging an HIV-positive person with "felonious assault" for having sex with someone without informing him or her of that positive HIV status, which makes me wonder why the same law doesn't include people with hepatitis B or C, both of which are also potentially deadly diseases and far more likely to be transmitted in a single act of sexual intercourse than HIV. Adams also cites federal law:
According to federal law enforcement, a needle is categorized as a "weapon" in the context of a physical assault. For example, if you were to acquire the blood of an HIV-positive person, fill a syringe with it, then assault someone with that needle, you would not only be charged with a felony assault, but an assault with a deadly weapon (the needle).
Under Ohio law, for example, it is explained as: "...causing or attempting to cause serious harm with a deadly weapon or a firearm -- referred to in the Ohio statutes as a 'dangerous ordnance.'"
When administered without consent, a vaccine injection is a physical violation of a human body. The substance contained in the vaccine is provably harmful and, in some cases, even deadly. Under Ohio sentencing guidelines, an individual forcing a vaccination upon someone without their consent would be committing a "felonious assault with dangerous ordnance."
Excuse me. I can't go on; I need a break. I'm laughing too hard as I read the above passage again.
OK, I'm fine again.
Talk about some mental contortions! See Mikey shamelessly mix federal and state law (of a single state, yet) to come up with a new legal "theory" that lets him label vaccination as a "felonious assault with dangerous ordnance"! The rest of what flows from Adams' assumptions is simply too dumb to be real, except that I know it is real, because Mike Adams is capable of such depths. Read his rationale for how doctors committing "vaccine violence" against children would earn 41 months in federal prison (or more). But be prepared. Steel yourself. If you have any critical thinking skills, knowledge of vaccines, and even a rudimentary knowledge of the law on par with what many educated people do, you will have a headache from tightly clenched teeth, which will lose some enamel from grinding. It all depends upon Adams' considering needles on syringes containing vaccines as needles "containing a potentially dangerous substance" and such needles are considered a "dangerous weapon" by all law enforcement organizations. Based on this speculation, Adams cranks the crazy up to 11 and writes:
Under both federal and state law, parents who believe their children face the risk of imminent harm from a violent attack upon their bodies have every right to call 911 and request armed police officers come to their defense to stop the assault and arrest those attempting to commit those acts of violence.
I am now publicly predicting that, should SB 277 be signed into law, we will see a wave of California parents calling 911 to report their doctors while demanding the government press felony assault charges against medical personnel engaged in vaccine violence.
The sad thing is, I have no doubt that, should SB 277 pass (something that is still going to require a battle), there will be an antivaccinationist or two (or maybe even three) who will try what Adams suggests. My counter-prediction is that any police called for such a purpose will not take it seriously, to put it mildly. I can picture the 911 operator silently laughing and pointing at her headset, as if to say, "Get a load of this loon!" Even Adams seems to recognize that, predicting that the police won't arrest the doctor or nurse giving the vaccine, but still asserts that "parents will retain the right of CIVIL prosecution of those doctors for violating their civil rights." Yes, I'd love to see someone try that argument in front of a judge. The entertainment value would be enormous.
Meanwhile, the "not anti-vaccine" minion at the antivaccine crank blog Age of Autism, Ken Heckenlively, wonders when they'll "start shooting antivaxxers."
Coming back to the frequent clutching of pearls exhibited by antivaccinationists in response to being called "antivaccine," it's hard to take them seriously when, to them, seemingly vaccination is the Holocaust. It’s the Oklahoma City bombing. It’s Auschwitz (complete with Dr. Josef Mengele’s horrific experiments), before which antivaccinationists view themselves as much victims as Jews in Germany during the Nazi regime. It’s Stalin. It’s the Tuskegee syphilis experiment. It’s a tsunami washing away everything before it.
And it’s a "violation" (i.e., rape) too.
And now it's felonious assault, violence, an attack worthy of calling the police over. Adams might be what I like to colloquially call batshit crazy, but his rhetoric is useful because it tends to be the same as that of other antivaccinationists, just with the conspiracy mongering an crazy turned up to 11. If you look at others, you'll find echoes of the same sort of rhetoric. Rare is the case when I see anyone on the “antivaccine” side publicly call out rhetoric like this, even when someone like Mike Adams likens vaccines to the Holocaust, sexual assault, human trafficking, or felonious assault. It is worth repeating that the reason, I suspect, is because most antivaccinationists are at least sympathetic to such analogies but don’t use them publicly because they know how inflammatory and despicably ridiculous those not steeped in the false victimhood of the antivaccine cult find them. Perhaps next time I will provide more examples, this time from antivaccine physicians, some of whom we've met before. After all, even a seemingly "mainstream" (in the antivaccine movement) group like the Autism Media Channel refers to "vaccine violence."
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Heheheh. You best me to it. :-)
Chaste tree is an actual tree (I have one in the back yard, I like the shape and the flowers and the butterflies and other nectar eaters enjoy the flowers as well).
It was historically used to lower the libido.
Many thanks. I have learned something new today. Still, if Brogan is offering her clients an anaphrodisiac (however ineffective) in lieu of contraception, this does not speak any better of her character.
I see that she also promotes a computerised rhythm method calculator. No wonder she hates the HPV vaccines. Oh noes, people are having the sex without suffering in consequence!
It would be really nice if you understood things BEFORE you posted them.
Optimist.
Theo, it is impossible to talk to goats. The only option open is to wait for them all to die off. It is only the same 4 or 5 people who keep popping up, well one less now. So the future can only improve the situation.
Apparently vaccines are so safe no one can possibly die from having one. That's medical science-in a class all on its own.
johnny, that was utterly heartless. Apologize. Now.
"Cure is far more costly than prevention." Greyfukwit
Well it is if you are selling snake oil medication. The best prevention is to avoid seeing a doctor for health advice. How many doctors websites have advice on a good diet?
More specifically, how can you revel in lilady's death? That is disgusting.
It's also not possible to kill them by staring at them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Men_Who_Stare_at_Goats
johnny's latest comment addressed at me is also pretty bad:
1) Obscenity is not clever.
2) Does he not know how much was spent treating the latest measles outbreak?
3) Mainstream doctors do discuss nutrition. If he spend five minutes outside his little "alternative" bubble, he'd know that.
You believe harsher language is required? Perhaps, but that puts you into the moderation queue, so l think it's best I stick with 'quack'.
Does it mater why? The only meaningful question is (whatever her motivation) there is a body of evidence which supports her oppsition to routine vaccination. To date neither she nor anyone else has identified any, despite assertions "it's all around us".
Chasteberry is Vitex agnus casta: woo-meisters and herbalistst/wysewomyn see recommend it for nearly everything that could be related to female hormones- supposedly, its anaphrodisiac qualities were utilised by Christian nuns and given to Roman soldiers' wives during their husbands' absence. Also called Monk's Pepper.
I can't find my herbal book ( Michael Tierra) - which lists its compounds- right now but see herbwisdom.com for a taste of the woo.
@1006 --
He's just going to amp it up. He's nothing if not monotonously predictable.
...
I really can't imagine what it would be like to feel that weak, frightened, and angry. But I'm sure that it's as much to be pitied as censured.
For practical purposes, I guess it doesn't matter, though.
Naah. He's trying to get banned so he can brag about how dangerous he is.
Reading #1000
It's cute then a young enthusiast comes around and reinvents the wheel right in front of our eyes.
Well, one can argue he is jumping the bandwagon and hoging some new terms he barely understand, like "epigenetics". Or "immune system", for that matter.
(trotting outliers in front of biologists, seriously?)
Re: the troll
I almost posted yesterday something about stopping feeding the troll, as he is doing a very good job all by himself at gathering enough ropes to hang himself, metaphorically speaking.
(the bit about his citations being set in stone, but our citations being just "anecdotes" was priceless in this regard)
I'm not surprised he went so far. Someone whose only motive here is to rile us up won't stop at anything.
Well, right now he has enough ropes to hang himself a hundred times.
Again, metaphorically speaking.
As bank robber Willie Sutton said: "Because that's where the money is." Gotta pay for that Madison Avenue office somehow.
I have much more respect for Sutton. He only threatened the lives of people within shooting range.
More like pathetic. That's a better word to describe it.
So johnny who claims to be a medical professional- and is probably a Christian, given the videos- gloats over someone's death.
Unfortunately, I predicted that lilady's opponents would do as much early on the obituary post. ChrisP notes how Parker behaved as well. One time I don't enjoy being right.
IN the past few months, TMR has lost one of their own, BK, and the anti-vaccine community lost Dr Mayer Eisenstein, whom they held in high regard as an excellent doctor and advisor.
I didn't see any scoffing by SBM supporters at AoA ,TMR and related websites because of *their* losses. Believe me, they would tell their followers about how despicable we all are if we did so, even if they didn't publish the comments.
And WE'RE the heartless ones!
re Brogan's "impeccable credentials"-
right, just like Peter Duesberg's and Luc Montagnier's prior to their respective conversions to hiv/aids denialism-
which sort of botched their resumes.
Heck, even Andrew Wakefield had halfway decent credentials before he turned antivax.
One need look no further than Dr. Oz, who was a very well respected cardiothoracic surgeon prior to his descent into an uncritical embrace of all things woo, to demonstrate having "impeccable credentials" just ain't enough.
Yeap. That's not your equipment that matters, it's that you do with it.
What about the Jimmy Kimmel experiments?
10 out of 10 kids preferred a lollipop to vaccination!
Don't go into the light, Carol Anne!!! The TV people are banging on their keyboards from their sales-job call center cubicles across the nation.
The vaccines are falling, the vaccines are falling.
Just try and stay out of my way. I'll get you, my pretty, and your little dog, too!
What a world...what a world....
Why would a young Medical doctor with impeccable credentials properly trained jump ship and come out against vaccines?
I do not offer psychiatric diagnoses across the intertubes. Not unless someone pays me to. Professional ethics!
Naah. He’s trying to get banned so he can brag about how dangerous he is.
Johnny has so little class, he's a Marxist utopia. I was wondering how long he could resist the temptation to gloat.
AND 'why would a young medical doctor with impeccable credentials properly trained'..
become a member of Fearless Parent Radio/ show and blog, write for Green Med Info, maintain a woo-fraught website, present at AutismOne, take part in woo-drenched films etc?
Beats me.
Easier money than working 60-70 hours weekly as a regular doctor? Less fashion restrictions? She likes vegan restaurants more than steakhouses?
Denice Walter and the rest of you including the high priest ORAC
AND ‘why would a young medical doctor with impeccable credentials properly trained jump ship?
Let me answer this. its quite simple she has learned the TRUTH and is now a leader and leading voice for this new paradigm. Not this toxic soup of chemical quackery you all pimp out.
Your reign is eroding a new paradigm is well underway! She sees it. you don't
I dont need a medical degree to see whats going on. This is a no brainer!
What its this truth?
Functional Medicine, Nutrigenomics, Nutrition, epi-gentics Holistic view, MicroBiome etc
Its happening so rapidly its amazing. This new science OVERRIDES your archaic antiquated outdated pharmaceutical model. which includes vaccines and all the other drugs you peddle.
Whats really fascinating about all of this? All your precious degrees never taught you this new science that is emerging. BAHAAAAA Your like a commodore computer from APPLE back in the 1980s unable to compute. Your training is dangerous to the American people You have no new ideas just more continuing education funded by drug companies promoting the never ending pipeline of drugs and vaccines the human bodies don't require. Who's the idiot now? You better go back and learn about nutrition. You know that subject you don't know shit about? Its over for you unless you change like Brogan did.
"Years later, as a newly minted doctor on the wards seeing real patients, I found myself in the same position. I was still getting a lot of questions about food and diet. And I was still hesitating when answering. I wasn’t sure I knew that much more after medical school than I did before." translation he was completely ignorant
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/16/health/16chen.html?_r=1&
The link between food and health is well documented but people still struggle to find the right balance between energy intake and energy expenditure. Whether its malnutrition or over-consumption, people are looking for disease preventing and health promoting foods that match their lifestyles, cultures and genetics. Nutritional genomics is a systems approach to understanding the relationship between diet and health and will ensure that everyone benefits from the genomic revolution.
Whose goal is to take proven nutrition- and immunity-based technologies and deliver them as health solutions to developing and low-income countries. The GHSI's initial focus will be to use mucosal immunity and bioactive foods to reduce cardiovascular disease, infectious disease and malnutrition.
Now thats exciting!! and the future!
H/T Ken http://nutrigenomics.ucdavis.edu
@johnny Goats? your too much
I finally made it to the end of this thread. A lot of the disagreement seemed incoherent at best, but maybe I am just tired.
You have my sincere condolences.
She also charges 1000 US$ cash for an initial consultation and $450 for a 40 minute followup. No on-call, no committee work. Nice work if you can get it!
#1030 TB
She certainly is not prescribing these drugs....
"Sales of aripiprazole and its competitors, quetiapine (Seroquel) and olanzapine (Zyprexa), have skyrocketed. At more than $450 a bottle, Abilify was prescribed to nearly 9 million Americans in 2014 and grossed $7.8 billion — making it the second best-selling drug in the U.S., just behind the new (and very expensive) hepatitis C drug Sovaldi, according to healthcare analytics company IMS Health.
www.buzzfeed.com/catferguson/the-antipsychotic-boom?utm_term=.paLXk4oPZ…
^^Is that more empathy I see?
Theo, your evidence that the 'truth' you believe she's discovered actually is true, or that any of the ingredients in the vaccine formulations you characterize as 'toxic soup' actually are toxic at exposure levels achievable as a consequence of routine childhood vaccination, would be ...what, exactly? Be specific.
Oh, wait--that's right. You don't have any.
I wouldn't be surprised. I doubt that Brogan has very many, if any, people with schizophrenia in her practice.
Yah. I will credit Iliya for finally having come with a useful idea, though:
I heartily recommend "johnny Goats" as a form of reference for anyone who's still responding to Phildo Hills.
^ Erm, "to anyone"; you get my drift.
Your like a commodore computer from APPLE back in the 1980s unable to compute.
I prefer to compare myself to a TRS-80 from Sinclair.
ohnny Goats?
And dozy doats and liddle lamzy divey
@TBruce
Precisely. I also doubt she treats bipolar 1 and schizoaffective disorder much. And the reason that Abilify has such high sales is that it's the atypical that people are likeliest to find helpful as an adjunctive treatment for major depression.
However, I seem to recall that ken was able to resolve her problems with depression via CBT.
Hence my comment about empathy.
JGC
May 19, 2015
Theo, your evidence that the ‘truth’ you believe she’s discovered actually is true,
1000's of testimonies of patients healing from chronic diseases across the world repeated over and over and over the restorative effects of food and nutrition are obvious and self evident.
Care to go test this hypothosis yourself?
Go eat Mcdonalds and have 16OZ sodas with each meal for 30 days
See how you feel afterwards check you blood.
Then have an organic gourmet chef cook for you for 30 days. Preparing Kale salads ,Grass fed beef,free range chickens, wild Salmon, Bone Broth supplemented with extra vitamins and minerals omega 3's etc.
Do the blood tests and look in the mirror and OBSERVE.
There is your evidence.... Are you so rigid you need a study to prove this? This is the effing problem with you folks your a slave to peer review science and are waiting for others to dictate science to you. How about observable evidence in your own life? By the time this is all in published studies many years from now and a forgone conclusion (WHICH IT IS) you will be DEAD or your children will have missed out on this valuable information because of you were too stubborn and lacked the intellectual curiosity.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3121546/
When people ask to see the evidence for Functional Medicine, they often mean, “Where are your research trials, comparing Functional Medicine to conventional medicine in a clinical setting?” Unfortunately, current research models do not have a way to test each individualized, patient-centered therapeutic plan that is tailored to a person with a unique combination of existing conditions, genetic influences, environmental exposures, and lifestyle choices. Clinical trials do play a significant role in evaluating and comparing the efficacy of new pharmaceutical treatments, especially when it is important to rule out placebo effects, but they have many inherent limitations which constrain their ability to inform clinical decision making.
- See more at: https://www.functionalmedicine.org/What_is_Functional_Medicine/Why/Evid…
In the event that there's any confusion about it:
"Empathy" does not mean "the ability to share and understand the feelings of others when their being the same as yours makes it convenient, effortless and self-rewarding."
It just means "the ability to share and understand the feelings of others."
Something tells me that being an MLM scammer doesn't actually allow for this sort of food budget, but if there's one thing that immediately marks someone as either a poseur or an outright food ignoramus, it's use of the barbarous neologism "bone broth."
Quick, link a dynamo to Steve Jobs' rotating corpse. The energy output could power New York for a few months.
Trivia: I read somewhere that space probes and rockets are using old computer technology (well, quite obviously for those sent two decades ago).
The reason being that it's better to use tested technology rather than jumping on the new one before the bugs have been ironed out.
We all know the effect of overeating, of junk food, etc. Thanks for stating the obvious.
And all physicians I know would be very upset if I was only eating burgers and fries. They didn't waited for you to discover this.
Between MacDo and organic kale, there is a large realm of balanced cuisine, you know.
Half of us here are not in America, you self-centered twit.
Missed this.
I prefer my vitamins and other nutrients coming from my food, thank you.
So much for eating "naturally".
@Helianthus- THEO/iliya will probably say that we can't get enough nutrients from food anymore due to soil depletion. Never mind that:
a) Vitamin and mineral deficiencies have well-documented effects that we are not seeing.
b) If the crops aren't getting enough nutrition, they wouldn't grow in the first place.
Also, THEO, let's say you're shopping for a new car. The salesman for one brand tells you about the quality brakes, and tells you the following:
1) His car's brakes are capable of preventing all traffic accidents. There's no other cause of accidents but poor braking.
2) No other company sells cars that have brakes, at all. Most manufacturers don't even know what they are.
3) The stories you hear about drunk drivers were just invented by people selling cars without brakes. Whenever there's an accident, people just assume that someone was drunk, without bothering to take any measurements.
Would you be inclined to trust that salesman? Tell me, then, why are you brazenly lying to us?
A kiddly divey too, wouldn't you?
It's amusing to me that THEO the Great, who is leading the way to the New Paradigm of Health and spearheading The Revolution, doesn't know the difference between "your" and "you're".
It's simple. Substitute "you are". If it makes sense , it's you're. If it doesn't make sense, it's "your".
However, it might not work in this case, because nothing THEO writes makes sense.
It is amusing that suppletwit moans about the need for sup's because soils are depleted of essential soiliness while flogging sup's many of which are made of ground up plant bits grown on ...
@THEO
Do all of your "reliable sources" have the same unusual belief that Down Syndrome is caused by a single gene, or are they not all reliable on that point?
JGC
Or that any of the ingredients in the vaccine formulations you characterize as ‘toxic soup’ actually are toxic at exposure levels achievable as a consequence of routine childhood vaccination, would be …what, exactly? Be specific.
Although the brain has classically been considered “immune-privileged”, current research suggests that there is extensive communication between the nervous and the immune systems in both health and disease (Carson et al., 2006; McAllister and van de Water, 2009). The primary goal of this review is to discuss recent evidence that a large number of “immune” proteins are expressed in the central nervous system (CNS) where they play critical modulatory roles in activity-dependent refinement of connections, synaptic transmission, synaptic plasticity, and homeostasis during brain development. These roles for immune molecules during neural development suggest that they could also mediate pathological responses to chronic elevations of cytokines in neurodevelopmental disorders, including autism spectrum disorders (ASD) and schizophrenia.
Implications for Neurodevelopmental Disorders
The formation of functional neuronal circuits in the CNS during development provides the substrate for human learning, memory, perception, and cognition. Improper formation or function of these synapses may lead to a number of neurodevelopmental disorders including ASD and schizophrenia. ASD and schizophrenia are complex diseases that appear to be caused by combinations of genetic changes and environmental insults during early development (Boulanger, 2004; Arion et al., 2007; Patterson, 2009). Although a wide range of environmental stimuli have been proposed to play a role in the pathogenesis of these disorders, many of these stimuli have in common the ability to "ALTER IMMUNE FUNCTION" <------- BINGO
Vaccines alter immune function and disrupt the CNS
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3059681/
When you take into account Flouride in the water, Glyphospate, BPA, insecticides, food additives etc each infant comes into the world with varying level of toxicity in the body. So you now you have newborns already with elevated levels of toxins coming from the umbilical cord.
Then you start administering powerful vaccines with more toxins and inflammatory effects. This overwhelms the threshold and the infants ability to process it. This leads to activated microglia in the brain resulting in developmental disorders. This is why not everyone is equally impacted by vaccines. Some mothers eat healthy others don't Some babies tolerate it others don't.
This is not as difficult as you make it... Toxicity and Deficiency DUH!!!!
This is why we are screaming for susceptibility tests prior to vaccinating. One size fits all medicine is not based on science. Thats nonsense WOO
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/newborn-babies-chemicals-expo…
"Something tells me that being an MLM scammer doesn’t actually allow for this sort of food budget, but if there’s one thing that immediately marks someone as either a poseur or an outright food ignoramus, it’s use of the barbarous neologism “bone broth.” NOBred or inbred - you decide
It is actually cheaper to cook from scratch in the UK. Unfortunately the US has effectively banned fresh food from onsale - the size of the average yank speaks/weighs for itself. In the UK we have managed to stall the onslaught of the Monsanto but in the US the population just rolled over and accepted their fake food programme.
Narad - whatever you are - it's a no brainer - shit food = ill health. However much a septic you are this can't be up for debate. If 60% of the people with the gene for breast cancer don't get breast cancer, why are idiots like you studying the 40%? Because you want to shore up a broken religion?
“Something tells me that being an MLM scammer doesn’t actually allow for this sort of food budget, but if there’s one thing that immediately marks someone as either a poseur or an outright food ignoramus, it’s use of the barbarous neologism “bone broth.” NOBred or inbred – you decide
It is actually cheaper to cook from scratch in the UK. Unfortunately the US has effectively banned fresh food from onsale – the size of the average yank speaks/weighs for itself. In the UK we have managed to stall the onslaught of the Monsanto but in the US the population just rolled over and accepted their fake food programme.
Narad – whatever you are – it’s a no brainer – Duff food = ill health. However much a septic you are this can’t be up for debate. If 60% of the people with the gene for breast cancer don’t get breast cancer, why are idiots like you studying the 40%? Because you want to shore up a broken religion?
"It’s amusing to me that THEO the Great, who is leading the way to the New Paradigm of Health and spearheading The Revolution, doesn’t know the difference between “your” and “you’re”."T boner
YOu know what TB, you lot here don't know the difference between a discussion and a rant. Is eating properly and resting a revolution, what kind of work gopher are you?
I suppose if I spent all day 'researching' complete wong and getting paid for it, maybe I would urinate on anything that threatened to take teddy away?
I am antivaccine and very proud of it. vaccination is a stupid idea, it doesn't work and makes people chronically ill.
I don't research complete wong. I don't think Mr. Wong would take kindly to me snooping into his business.
What, 'Merika's banned fresh food--when did that happen?
Well no one's told the farmer's market down the street or the CSA's or any of the grocery stores around here. Whatever will that plethora of locovore restaurants in these parts do now?!
I dunno Big Organic (if you think that conventionally grown food isn't fresh even if it is picked off the tree and goes straight in my belly without any machinery grinding it up) seems to be getting it's talons into more and more places, is isn't just Whole Foods and weirds little coop's anymore. Last I read Whole Foods was having to come up with cheaper foods (thus may lose its Whole Paycheck nick name) as way too many other groceries are selling organic foods for less.
Doesn't sound banned to me? But maybe banned means something different in johnny-world.
Helianthus:
It depends on what you mean by "old". ;-) But it's true by just about any definition. There are several reasons. One is realibility, for sure. The stakes are much higher when you can never touch the computer again after launch. There's also the limited market -- space computing technology supplies a tiny volume compared to consumer electronics, which of course means they will evolve more slowly. And then there's radiation -- older technology does tend to be more resistant to damage from radiation because of larger wire sizes, so there is real reason to hesitate in jamming more circuits on a chip.
And sometimes there are just weird reasons. I know for an absolute fact that the computer that landed the Dream Chaser is about ten years old. Literally, as in it was manufactured probably ten years ago. That's an unusual case, though; the computer was surplus from a program that got cancelled. Damn good computer too, and still a competitive design today.
:)
Oh, johnykins, you're always great for a laugh.
Theo, regarding your post at 1050, it's completely non-responsive, offering not evidence that at exposure levels achievable as a consequence of vaccination any of the ingredients in vaccine formulations are toxic or otherwise harmful.
Care to try again, or is "Oooooh--ingredients! Scary stuff!" the best you have to offer?
what I see when I think of NARAD
http://tinyurl.com/n5gmof5
And lets not forget JP
http://tinyurl.com/ldzkv34
He's sort of adorable, actually - quite a bit better looking than Iliya Torbica, in my opinion, but I am admittedly weird.
The glasses are almost accurate, actually, but I do not have such a fine mustache.
@ Calli
Thanks for the details. There were some reasons I didn't think about.
As my lab director likes to say, everyday we learn something news.
#1034 TB You didn't read the article. These were prescribed for depression.
“What’s happened recently is remarkably heavy marketing of antipsychotics,” Allen Frances, former chairman of the psychiatry department at Duke University School of Medicine, told BuzzFeed News. Doctors, he added, are prescribing antipsychotics for depression “too quickly, without clear indication, and under pressure from pharmaceutical companies.”Frances, who led the group that developed the fourth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, is an outspoken critic of the pharmaceutical industry. But he’s by no means the only expert who says antipsychotics are probably overused."
#1039 ann See link
Suggest you read before commenting.....
http://www.buzzfeed.com/catferguson/the-antipsychotic-boom?utm_term=.pa…
BTW I felt like a zombie on Paxil...
I’m trying to understand the argument you’re advancing, ken. As far as I can tell it takes the form
1: Antipsychotics are likely being overprescribed
2: (sound of crickets chirping)
Therefore
3: Routine childhood vaccination is neither safe nor effective
Perhaps you could fill in that second step for us?
" Unfortunately the US has effectively banned fresh food from onsale"
Ah, so the aisles of produce I see when I walk into the grocer's are a hologram.
(I use the term 'grocer" advisedly. He has two stores, which I don't think qualifies him to be a supermarket chain).
#1067 JGC
You conflate different issues because you did not read the posts addressed to 2 people by the nyms of ann and TB not related to vaccines.
ken @ #1065:
You have a point, right?
I thought of THEO and johnny earlier when I came across a reference to monte and shell games earlier. These are variants of the game 'find the lady' that have been used for centuries to part millions of fools from their money using a cunning combination of sleight of hand, deliberately looking inept, and the use of clumsily marked cards or cups and/or shills to make the mark believe he has figured out how to beat the con artist. He hasn't, of course and will continue to lose money until he is cleaned out or the players are forced to skedaddle by the cops.
The first time I encountered the scam was in the early 80s in Amsterdam. I was familiar with it, having read a newspaper article, and was fascinated to see an example in the wild. One of my companions was not so lucky and fell for it hook, line and sinker, refusing to believe that his perceptions and emotions had been so carefully and successfully manipulated. He was begging me to lend him some money as we attempted to drag him away and IIRC he found some other sucker to lend him more money to throw after the past lot.
THEO and johnny's protestations that no one could be so dumb as to fall for the scam of SBM strongly remind me of my friend's anger when I wouldn't believe he had seen through 'find the lady'. When you are focused on only one part of 'the game' and allow your attention to be distracted by false information you can find yourself believing in BS just as strongly as my friend did. If you don't see the bigger picture you may find yourself being manipulated to believe whatever someone else wants you to believe.
Good grief.
Well, well, if it isn't the same old, trivially false excuse provided by homeopaths.
@Narad: Worth noting many of these people specializing in "individualized" treatments prescribe the exact same cure for everything. Again, my car salesman analogy in #1045 applies.
Since Ken is predictably f(l)oundering, allow me:
2. Kelly Brogan isn't a Big pHARMa sherson, but rather a Truth Teller who has Seen The Light.
#1071 Kreb Amazing slight of hand-watched many in NY- wise enough not to play.
Declined further Paxil. Declined Levaquin. Declined Lipitor.
Diet and exercise work. (symptoms aggravated by sugar and dairy) Only anecdotal but it works for me.
@ken- So? They don't work for measles. If they did, large numbers of American Indians wouldn't have died off so quickly.
#1074
Narad refer back to #1069
I am biased and have heard too many anecdotes. I will not advise people to vaccinate or not vaccinate. My children and grandchildren have been vaccinated.
My grandchild had a very bad reaction to the DTap at 6 yrs old and had to receive IV fluids. No lasting effects but scary.
#1076 OBVIOUSLY
ken, if nobody can figure out what you're trying to say, maybe the issue is with you.
Buzzfeed interviewed an anti-pharmacology campaigner about the Secret that Psychiatrists Don't Want You to Know!
You won't believe what happens next!!
So even after stipulating the healthiest diet he can imagine, Iliya still can't resist the temptation to pimp his feckin' MLM pills?
This is RI, you doofus; no-one here is going to contribute to your income stream, you can take a break from the relentless advertising.
#1080
Allen Frances is a professor emeritus at Duke University and was the chairman of the DSM-IV task force.
@ken- And what does that have to do with vaccines? If the answer is "nothing", then why are you going on about it in a thread about vaccines?
@ken --
I know they're prescribed to treat depression. As I said:
Sorry if my not mentioning the Seroquel and Zyprexa specifically confused you.
But I wasn't effing replying to anything specific to the article.
I was replying to your saying that Little Miss Quack MD didn't prescribe those drugs, as if it would be to any doctor's credit that he or she didn't.
Yes, I remember you're mentioning something like that before. I'm glad you were able to find another way of addressing the depression. It's treatment-resistant for more than a few, no matter what they do.
A lot of people are helped by those drugs, although many are not. But since people who can't tolerate them are free to stop taking them, as you did, I don't really see what you have to gain by holding onto a narcissistic grudge about it. Depression is difficult to treat. Those drugs work for some people who haven't been helped by SSRIs or SNRIs alone. And empathy still means what I said it did.
I mean, what thing so terrible that it can't be forgiven happened to you? A treatment was tried; it made you feel transiently unwell; you discontinued it. End of story.
It's not even like there's a need to publicize it for the greater good, at this point. Millions of people have probably had that experience by now and survived it unharmed.
Let me ask you something, as a matter of fact. Was it a complete surprise to you that the Paxil was sedating? Or did the doctor who prescribed it mention that it might be? Or did you already know it? Or what?
It's not all about you, irrespective. But as long as we're talking about you, I'd be curious to know.
@Gray Falcon
Because a troll has to troll and staying on topic means they put fewer lines in water so less likely to get the continued negative attention that keeps them alive.
#1084 Exactly what are your qualifications? Better qualified than Allen Francis to comment?
Allen Frances is a professor emeritus at Duke University and was the chairman of the DSM-IV task force.
I agree that atypicals are overprescribed, btw. So are SSRIs, ftm.
I don't actually think that....Well. Never mind. It's a long story. The short version is that they're both overprescribed, but (as far as I'm aware), the problem with that is people not being helped rather than people being hurt.
- and how about those Canucks, eh?
Since I'm considered a troll- just ignore my posts. I'm fair.
Ken, if it’s only anecdotal you don’t know if it works for you, do you?
You may believe it does, in the same manner you might believe wearing your lucky socks on game day will increase the likelihood your team will win the ball game, but that’s hardly the same thing.
ken -- our very own Emily Litella.
If people don't wnat to put them on the back of school children's chairs the government sholdn't force them to....What? Oh--that's very different.
Never mind.
You seem to have a very severe problem with recognizing when someone is already a step or more ahead of you. I had to do that in order to go back further, Sherlock. Are you unable to recognize links if they're properly marked up?
Yet you're more than happy, for no reason whatever, to mindlessly barf up a stock antivaccine talking point that has recently been making the rounds.
Who the fυck cares? This is just your standard fallback attempt at deflection.
Allen Frances is a professor emeritus at Duke University and was the chairman of the DSM-IV task force.
Credentialism? Really?
Each recension of the DSM has been an interesting social phenomenon. Also an exercise in careerist log-rolling and claim-staking, with various lobby groups contending to get an official imprimatur (i.e. insurance coverage) for their speciality. The key criterion for inclusion of a purported syndrome in the DSM has always been whether a large enough group of psychologists are making money by claiming to treat it. It has about as much scientific validity as the Diet of Worms or Vatican II.
I am happy to believe that some perfectly decent people were involved in the sausage-making so I do not hold Allen Frances' participation against him. If he wants to spread his message through bottom-feeding click-bait churnalists like Buzzfeed, good luck to him.
@#1086
I agree with Francis, ffs.
That has nothing to do with my point.
So if you have a non-heartless, non-witless case to make against the overprescription of psychotropic medications, which occurs because there are many people -- quite a few of whom don't have the luxury of other treatment options, as you did -- for whom they're helpful and whom doctors have no way of identifying in advance so that they can be separated from the great big cry-babies who can't get over having briefly taken a mildly sedating medication once, please make it.
Because you purport to be about empathy, as I understand it.
(b)
Predictably, Brogan's a fave of CCHR.
So if you want to know what all the doctors you were comparing unfavorably with her when you made your original, empathy-free post have going for them that she doesn't, it's this:
They're not promoting the ideology and agenda of the Church of Scientology.
Goes a long way in my book.
I had a very bad reaction to the pertussis vaccine myself. But I can't say it had no lasting effects because I haven't f-cking had pertussis.
If the same is true for your grandchild, I humbly submit that it's relevant. Because you know what else is very scary? Whooping cough. Children die of it. It potentially has the lasting effect of death.
The name of Kelly Brogan's organisation -- "Personalized Lifestyle Medicine Institute" -- is a fair indication of her client base, i.e. narcissistic self-obsessed special snowflakes suffering from little more than a need for validation. She is careful to avoid dealing with sick people who might need medication.
On the topic of Brogan's credentials, I am still wondering about the “Rudin Scholarship for Psychiatric Oncology” that she touts in all her biographies, and which has no existence outside her biographies. There is a "Louis and Rachel Rudin Scholarship" funding Cornell students, but it does not specialise.
It's cute that the G&mdas;le Analytics custom ad campaign tracker is included. One can only wonder how Ken wound up with this paid-for search result.
So how do you know what is the right treatment for me with my exact set of existing conditions, genetic influences, environmental exposures, and lifestyle choices? How do you even know what the relevant genetic influences and environmental exposures even are? Cilantro tastes utterly foul to me, that's genetic; is that relevant? I've lived in a number of different cities, is it relevant which ones, when, and for how long?
And assuming you have some answers to these and similar questions, how do you know you're right?
Congrats to you
http://tinyurl.com/n8zm25x
THEO- You're a total stranger we only know on the Internet. Why should we even consider trusting you?
@JP- thank you for the condolences. Really.
I have a stepson whose nickname is JP. Strangely, those aren't his initials, and no one admits to knowing how those initials were chosen.
On the back-and-forth - I found the "individual" assertion ironic when contrasted with the recommended diet contrast (which was the same regardless). As was mentioned, SBM agrees good food is important for optimal health. I have friends who climb on this wagon and assure they are much better. I end used wondering how many hundred a month it takes to convince yourself of that. I also still see posts about their disease flares, sick days, etc., etc., in between visits to their naturopath, acupuncturist, massage therapist, and sharing of their unprocessed food/raw/veggie smoothies, etc.
One went to an unaccredited school, became a nutritionist, "cured" herself on a vegan smoothie diet. Her daughter got breast cancer. Mom knew just what to do. Mega alkaline, raw veggie juicing is the cure for everything!
Her daughter died. So she switched to whole foods with locally sourced grass fed beef and pasture-raised chicken and eggs. She still sells her nutritional consults to cure your diseases.
I feel so sad for her. I know she is a true believer, not someone just making money. I am sad for her clients, too, if they are led too far down her rabbit hole.
Oh how much I would love to have preview back.
These are in fact my initials. I sometimes go by them, mostly among a certain circle of friends from college. Somebody started calling me "JP" one day for whatever reason and it stuck.
RE: food woo: it is amazing how many completely different "alternative" diets are out there, each one claiming to be the one that cures what ails you. I had a certain vulnerability to some of it when I was pretty young, for whatever reason - social contagion, I suspect. I remember deciding to try that "Master Cleanse" thing during my first year of college, the one where you basically live on lemonade for a week. I started feeling really ill on about day three and threw in the towel. I remember people saying things like, "Oh, that was just the toxins coming out! You just have to get past the three day hump!" I'm pretty sure there was a more parsimonious explanation for it, like the fact that I had been living on lemonade for three days.
I would like to second Narad somewhere above about how grating the whole "bone broth" thing is. It's f*cking stock. I guess somebody figured out that you can sell chicken stock for 8 dollars a jar if you give it a trendy name, even though you can go get a bowl of Pho, which is "bone broth" with stuff in it fog significantly less money.
I'm just waiting for a "bone broth" cleanse or something to start making the rounds.
Way to go Theo.Thanks for your posts and links.
One of the latest woo trends is fetishising *sauerkraut* for after all, it is fermented and just loves your microbiome.
( Although I can recall woo-meisters being afraid of "carcinogenic" pickled/ fermented foods -esp those the Japanese eat- years ago.
Yoghurt and kombucha were always considered *de rigueur* except that vegans chose soy yoghurt of course. Some alties recommended sauerkraut juice for ulcers though).
So TMs and woo-mavens trade recipes for fermented foods.
HOWEVER I don't see much about breads and alcoholic products- aren't they also magical ferments?
Denise -- I'd gladly eat kimche on a regular basis if only the spousal unit would let me.
Yeah, you're right, Anna. Posting unflattering pictures and saying 'you look like this' is the height of wit and a logical argument that simply cannot be refuted. If you're freakin' three years old, that is.
Proper Johnny
Accept no substitutes
There has been news lately about an actual link between high consumption of pickled/fermented foods - in the Korean diet, I believe, where this is the traditional method of preserving vegetables for the winter - and stomach and esophageal cancers. I am not giving up my (fermented) pickles and sauerkraut, though.
There are certainly some hippies out there, some of my friends included, who are into making homemade fermented products of all sorts - mead, sourdough bread, sauerkraut, pickled garlic, etc. My friend Andy recently had to give up making kimchi, though, because his housemate was complaining about the smell.
HOWEVER I don’t see much about breads and alcoholic products- aren’t they also magical ferments?
As m'father used to say of beer, "Fluessiges Brot!"
@ JP:
Well, hippies and woos can overlap. But adamant alties despise gluten and alcoholic beverages.
There is also the heritage foods movement which tends to develop in affluent areas outside large cities- the nouveau bohemian countryside- which attempts recreating ancient breads, cheeses etc. AND these people like wine, mead, beers, ales- some of them attended prestigious culinary schools. I seem to wind up in places like this.
Interestingly, someone I know has been frequenting Russian stores for jarred sauerkraut and (pickled?) salads also in jars.
Not the fellow who believes in Celtic sea salt. That's another story.
My friend Andy recently had to give up making kimchi, though, because his housemate was complaining about the smell.
During the preparation, or after the consumption?
But adamant alties despise gluten and alcoholic beverages.
People who hate beer and pretzels are just sad excuses for human beings.
My mother recently took up vegetable gardening as a hobby, and started pickling the extra cucumbers and jalapeno peppers. I couldn't even walk in the kitchen when she was making pickled peppers. She insists there are health benefits to eating pickles, but was kind of vague about what they were. They tasted wonderful, though, and it's a good way to deal with extra vegetables.
Also, what is up with "Bone broth"? Seriously, people don't know what soup stock is anymore? Maybe we are too reliant on pre-prepared foods.
@Proper Johnny- When a commenter acts like a spoiled child, perhaps it's time to make him stand in the corner.
Russian sauerkraut is typically of the fermented, rather than vinegar-soaked, variety, and available at considerably cheaper prices than the stuff at the co-op or the shi-shi grocery stores.
When it comes to salads, it's hard to say. "Salad" is a very broad term in Russian. What I'm imagining one might often come by in jarred form is what's called "vinaigrette," which is a salad of mainly chopped root vegetables, always including beets, in a sweetish vinegar dressing.
Back when I frequented MDC, I more than once saw comments from people who were freaked out that they had messed up their "bone broth" because it turned into Jell-O in the fridge.
These don't even seem to be good stocks; I got the impression at the time that people cooked them until the bones frankly dissolved, which just makes for a gritty mess, and often don't bother browning them.
You get exactly two runs with a quick necks-and-backs brown stock, and the second one is only for reducing to glace.
Ha. During the preparation. I think part of the offensiveness was due to the sheer amount of garlic that he was using, though in related news, I went through almost a whole clove of home-pickled garlic on Monday afternoon at a friend's house and nobody even complained about my breath. Maybe they were just too nice.
^ Almost a whole head of garlic. I should get some sleep.
Narad: "Back when I frequented MDC, I more than once saw comments from people who were freaked out that they had messed up their “bone broth” because it turned into Jell-O in the fridge." .... "You get exactly two runs with a quick necks-and-backs brown stock, and the second one is only for reducing to glace."
The reason I started making my own stock over thirty years ago was to get decent glace de viande. The stuff they sell at upscale kitchen stores is a salty abomination.
My last batch of chicken stock was incredibly good. It helps that the garden herbs are in their springtime prime. Lots of fresh thyme, parsley, marjoram and bay laurel... with a touch of rosemary.
I forgot to say: "because it turned into Jell-O in the fridge.”
That is hilarious, and very silly.
You're supposed to bury it in the ground.
This also reminds me of some of the sauerkraut hilarity that was on display back in the day at MDC. (I have my paternal grandmother's cookbooks from the Old Country.)
Then again, I must confess to once naively trying to hang sausages that, out of laziness, I had formed in cheesecloth and painted with lard. This was likely a (merited) misreading of some part of Mastering the Art.
What really surprises me, though, is that there are no search results for 'pistachio sausage' + 'wasps'. Until now, I suppose.
Lookee here, it's two for one quack day! johnny's favourite, Susan/Suzanne/Suellen Humphries makes an appearance, in a video series sure to make you chew the inside of your mouth until someone notices and says, "hey, stop chewing the inside of your mouth."
http://kellybroganmd.com/article/natural-birth-breastfeeding-replaceabl…
Brogan makes me ill. According to her, "birth is not a medical problem to be managed." Until, of course, it is.
Yes Kelly, natural childbirth and breastfeeding are entirely replaceable. Next question, please.
That homebrew kombucha is more than happy to reach beer strength if handled with Goddess-love.
@ JP
Eh, don't beat yourself over it. The basic premise of any diet regimen is correct: if left to our own devices, most of us will overindulge food, especially the fried and/or sugary and/or creamy sort.
So, out of concern, out of a sense of guilt, we are primed to be listening when someone is reminding us to eat a healthier regimen.
And actually, any diet regimen, as wacky as it could be, is likely to make you lose weight, if for no other reason that you are now watching what and how much you are eating.
Where if falls apart, inevitably, it's in the long term. As Harriet Hall put it over at Science-Based Medicine blog, the main issue in health is individual compliance. If we were all perfect, with an iron discipline, we would all be slim and fit and muscular...
With really wacky diets, the fall is more likely to happen in the short term, as you experienced.
Don't worry, I have much more "substantial" things to beat myself up over. I did, of course, lose some weight on the "Master Cleanse," but I didn't need to at the time and it wasn't really why I was doing it.
I gather that this is hard to do during a Wisconsin winter.
@ Helianthus:
Well, what do you know, I'm perfect. I've always suspected as much** Merci.
You do hit upon the way woo-meisters manage to keep their marks coming back for more:
first, followers get results due to massive restrictions but then they fail. So their gurus can say that they're JUST not trying hard enough or they're not worthy enough. Usually these lunatics present their own success stories - displaying photos of themselves or showing OTHER happy customers- fit and perfect, enjoying life- which is contrasted by unattractive portraits of average folk- overweight, ill, old before their time BECAUSE they followed medical advice and watched television.
Unfortunately I hear often hateful speech directed at people who are heavier than what some orthorectic loon decides is desirable- not what SBM says is healthy. It is rather their own fixation.
I've heard 1700 calories per day for an active adult male, 60 grams of protein, below 10% body fat. ( PRN).
** I'm joking.
I've been trying to change my dietary habits, but my biggest issue isn't lack of certain nutrients, it's psychological. I deal with stress and pressure by snacking, and that has not helped my waistline in any way. I've been tracking my eating and my weight, and cutting back significantly, and that has helped my weight somewhat.
@ Gray Falcon:
It iS very difficult to lose or manage weight for MOST people- that's why it's a huge industry and very much prime territory for woo and fitness businesses.
I've found that having scheduled exercise 2 or 3 times a week is the foundation for me. I somewhat watch what I eat but do not follow any bizarre regimes like the idiocy I monitor.
I DO wonder how much genetics plays into the equation because- like my father- I've never been overweight- without much effort.
I chose the right father I suppose..
@THEO
Nice strawman you got there. What does that have to do with reality?
I’ve been trying to change my dietary habits, but my biggest issue isn’t lack of certain nutrients, it’s psychological.
Being able to eat anything and everything I wanted in my 20's and 30's hasn't helped my current less than lean status (nothing to do with my metabolism and everything to do with being in a profession where everyone went out and ran six miles over lunch).
When diet is wrong medicine is of no use, When diet is correct medicine is of no need.
I made it easy for you to understand
THEO: We need evidence. It doesn't get easier to understand than that.
That's why they do it before the ground freezes in Korea. (It was the primary winter source of vitamin C, as I recall.) Good and ripe by the time you got to the end of it come spring.
Here Grey start here and see where it takes you dont trust me though. http://nutrigenomics.ucdavis.edu/?page=Home
And Justthestats. Specifically which part of the meme do you not find to be true?
THEO, they are selling a product. By your own standards, that means anything they say is inherently untrustworthy.
You’re supposed to bury it in the ground.
Any recipe which involves "bury in the ground", we are in Icelandic cuisine territory, and I am noping out of there as fast as I can nope.
Which culture now extant do you believe comes closest to or has acheived eating a 'correct' diet, Theo?
When diet is correct medicine is of no need
Why do you sell supplements, then?
Vaccine Injury Stories: the Sacred Cows of the Internet?
GREY that is a university program they are not selling anything but that latest science based on the TRUTH.
JGC Its not about cultures its about individual discipline to eat correctly. Following a Paleo diet eliminating dairy and wheat gluten is a great starting point. Those foods cause inflammation in the body and create chronic disease states. Your medical doctor will not even consider this idea. If you are unable to identify a root cause of headaches for example likely caused by dairy or gluten what fucking good are you? Not much! What are you going to do prescribe medications or do surgery while the chronic disease is still festering in this persons body? of course you are! Thats what you were trained to do by your pharmaceutical overlords. You don’t know another way. However Dr. Brogan found another way and ran with it Why? Because she is curious unlike you.
Your nothing but pre-progammed robots downloaded with whatever continuing education pharma wants to train you in. You lack flexibility in your thinking, You rule out nutritional supplements as a solution. Everything is quackery unless you learned it in medical school. Your entire training is biased towards toxic chemicals. You don’t see food as medicine. You adhere to DOGMA allowing others to do your thinking for you. Thats fucking dangerous! #BOOM #KO
As I have stated before your training is great for trauma, bullet wounds, surgery and acute care. But an utter failure in treating chronic diseases.
The Paradigm is moving AWAY from your trusted dogma and training. You have been warned.
Check mate!
http://tinyurl.com/lmjm6e6
THEO- I got a look at that nutrigenomics site. Interesting, you're right, they aren't selling anything. They also didn't say anything at all supporting your claims. There is nothing even remotely suggesting that proper nutrition can prevent all diseases. So in other words, you are either too stupid to read your sources, or a liar willing to twist people's words to your advantage.
Now, tell me something THEO, now that we've established you're either a) a fool, b) a liar, or most likely c) a foolish liar, why should we trust anything you say?
So many unsupported assertions, so little time
Nonsense—traditional cultural diets vary enough that if your premise is valid you should be able to point which come closest to approximating your postulated ‘correct diet” and which are least like it. Offer an example form each end of the spectrum, please.
Or admit you have no idea what this putative correct diet would even look like in the first place.
Citations needed: your evidence that consumption of dairy products and gluten (in anyone who does not actually have celiac disease) are inflammatory and “create chronic disease states’ would be what, exactly?
I’m quite sure he will, once you provide good evidence this idea is anything other than speculative I can show him/her. Can I expect some anytime soon?
But if one’s unable to identify a root cause on what rational basis should attribute the headaches to consumption of dairy or gluten rather than anything else at all (including, of course, insufficient consumption of dairy and gluten)?
What evidence demonstrates Dr. Brogan’s ‘other way’ provides better outcomes than standard of care science based medical interventions? Be specific.
Translation: Why won’t you listen to me, even though I have no evidence to offer in support of my claims?
Not at all: there are some indications for which nutritional supplementation has been shown to be efficacious—rickets, for example, or scurvy. If there’s actual evidence demonstrating supplementation is beneficial we’re more than happy to ‘rule it in’. So—got any?
Which chronic diseases has nutritional supplementation been shown to be successful at treating, theo? Be specific, and link to the evidence demonstrating it is actually beneficial at treating these chronic diseases>
Uhh—theo? You appear to have tipped over your own king.
Hey grey they are not going to come out and tell you they have to be cautious.
Oh JGC you are a hoot!
LMFAO
What evidence demonstrates Dr. Brogan’s ‘other way’ provides better outcomes than standard of care science based medical interventions? Be specific.
Start with this Doctor. or this Doctor
http://www.drfuhrman.com
dr perlmutter see his new book about the brain.
Omega 3 fatty acids are REQUIRED by the body we don't get enough from our diet look what they can do.....
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25936773
Translation: Why won’t you listen to me, even though I have no evidence to offer in support of my claims?
Translation
Dogma is a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority (Pharmaceutical Co.'s) as incontrovertibly true. It serves as part of the primary basis of an ideology or belief system, and it cannot be changed or discarded without affecting the very system's paradigm, or the ideology itself. You sir believe in Dogma!
Which chronic diseases has nutritional supplementation been shown to be successful at treating, theo? Be specific, and link to the evidence demonstrating it is actually beneficial at treating these chronic diseases>
Irritable Bowel, high blood pressure, Auto immune etc
Go to Pubmed and search out probiotics and IBS. Omega3 and Lupus or Vit D3 and immunity.
I am not here to do all the heavy lifting go research yourself and discover this Truth. Brogan did...or are you so rigid and so incapacitated by DOGMA you are paralyzed?
Very Likely
I know why too see below
"The Brainwashing of Medical Education
Yes, indeed, we are most certainly brainwashed by our medical education. There is a set of attitudes and behaviors that are expected of us while in training that become subconscious and automatic by the time we are board certified. These automatic behaviors set us up for physician burnout in private practice.
Here are the four flavors I routinely see in my over stressed physician clients.
NOTE: None of our instructors, professors or attendings has ever tried to “brainwash” you consciously and on purpose. The expectations and attitudes that create this subconscious programming are built into nearly every facet of our medical education as NORMAL and “the way things have always been done around here”. To most physicians in private practice the programming is invisible and unrecognized and the automatic behaviors it produces are dysfunctional and baffling. You will see in a second why this “brainwashing” virtually guarantees physician burnout in your 40’s and 50’s if it continues to sit in your blind spot.
Basic training in the military is 8 weeks. In that time they can condition an 18 year old to take a bullet on command. Medical education is a minimum of 7 years. (how long did it take you from your first day in medical school to your first day in private practice?) I believe there is no more thorough conditioning program on the planet than becoming a doctor. <-----ROBOT PROGRAMMING "
~the happy Md
THEO, we did not ask you about Omega-3 fatty acids. You made a very specific claim. Please provide evidence that claim is true.
Your medical doctor will not even consider this idea
I'm sure she would if there was evidence to substantiate it. Youtube videos and sales pitches, btw, don't constitute evidence.
Theo, regarding Dr. Fuhrman, I found no evidence at the website you linked to indicating Dr. Brogan’s ‘other way’ provides better outcomes than standard of care science based medical interventions.
Did you perhaps copy/paste the wrong URL?
Re: omega 3 fatty acids, the article you linked to provides neither evidence we don’t get enough from our diets—in fact that author’s note explicitly that no dietary reference intake has been established.
It also offers no evidence that supplemental omega 3 is effective as a treatment for breast cancer. It suggests instead that it may reduce one’s risk of developing breast cancer, but does not make a particularly strong case-- especially when the authors are seen to somehow interpret a study (PMID: 22194528) which concludes “Overall, there was no significant association between ω-3 PUFA [poly-unsaturated fatty acid] intake and breast cancer risk (P = 0.31)” as suggesting instead reduced risk of breast cancer in premenopausal women with higher intakes of omega-3 fatty acids from diet and supplements.
No, I do not: I go where the evidence leads, whether that would be my preferred course or not. Provide actual evidence that you’re correct, and I’ll gladly revise or abandon my position re: the benefits of nutritional supplementation. To date you’ve provided no such evidence whatsoever—in fact, given that you have attempted to support your claim by providing a URL to Fuhrman’s website it’s seems likely you have no real idea what form evidence supporting your claims must of necessity take.
Theo, surely you really it’s not our job to hunt for evidence that (if it did exist) would support claims you have made. Have you got any, or not?
Why then are you wasting everyone’s time by making extraordinary claims you lack either the willingness or ability to support?
As I’m not a physician, theo, clearly I’ve not been subjected to the ‘robotic programmed’ you believe occurs in medical schools.
THEO - do you, by chance, know of a diet that will prevent or cure rabies? Thanks in advance.
OK. It's weaksauce.
THEO #1142 Absolutely agree (though I wouldn't call it Paleo but close enough) Feel terrific at 72. Fortunately studied nutrition in my 20's and this has made all the difference. Unfortunately many of my friends chose to continue their early eating patterns (when you can eat anything in your 20's and 30's) and are not in good health!
I now can't tolerate dairy, wheat also will produce chronic sinus and breathing problems. If I waited for A PubMed study on this I would be miserable, unable to breathe, probably on an inhaler which I was prescribed before I gave up dairy which I love! It's takes discipline and the willingness to try it as a preventive measure.
I was prescribed vitamins by my Ob-Gyn when pregnant.
Studied nutrition when I was pregnant and changed my college ways. (coffee and cigarettes, scotch and soda, and all nighters)
As long as we're accepting anecdotes as evidence, my father smoked cigars and enjoyed a nightly brandy highball for most of his entire life, loved sweets and red meat, and took no exercise other than walking to and from work (despite the gangrene that took six of his toes in 1945. Before ken or Theo claims that was due to his diet, let me point out that a Teutonic gentleman pinched his jump boots and left him to freeze in a cellar).
He died at age 89 with all his own teeth and most of his hair. Granted, he had to use a wheelchair his last few years, but we blame the Wehrmacht.
I can't recommend a diet of black pudding, beer and coffee, but it's always worked for me.
@#1145 --
Vitalism is dogma, ffs.
OBVIOUSLY, eating a healthy diet is good for your health. Neither the government nor the medical profession is trying to keep that a secret. On the contrary. They teach it to small children in elementary school. They even draw pictures showing plates covered in vegetables and leaflet the country with them for the benefit of the reading challenged. You are living in a fantasy world.
@1151, #1152 --
Not so fast, Ms. Bleeding Heart.
Before we return to the fascinating litany of your many personal triumphs over routine, minor challenges, you owe me a reply.
JGC your making me work over here. The holistic/vitalism philosophy world has known this stuff for well over 20 years its understood.
Do you know why there isn't an abundance amount of evidence? It's because you cannot patent a nutritional supplement. They are all created differently by different companies slightly different formulations. If you cannot patent it you have no exclusivity. That a disincentive for investors.
However we do have research its ongoing and growing but no where near the amount of shiny turds the pharmaceutical industry puts out in its quest for world health dominance.
Your evidence
These results provide supporting evidence for the anti-inflammatory effects of DHA supplementation, and reveal previously unrecognized genes that are regulated by DHA and are associated with risk factors of cardiovascular diseases.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21775114
In this study, we concluded that probiotics confer beneficial effects for alleviation of IBS symptoms. Generally, use of different scales to analyze the mean differences of symptoms in various studies is the main limitation of all existing meta-analyses in IBS. Further well-designed clinical trials are still needed to confirm the effectiveness of probiotics on major IBS symptoms and patient quality of life.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4356930/
Theo: Which *specific* paleo diet should we follow?
The "Manage to kill a large mammal every-other week" diet?
The "Constantly hunting down tiny birds" diet?
The "Delicious grubs" diet?
The "gorge yourself on easy-to-collect oysters" diet?
These are all known paleolithic diets, which one is *right*?
#1153 shay
What is it you don't understand? Your father got the luck of the genes like my grandfather who smoked!
If I go off my diet I get ill. I did during the holidays and wound up in the ER having difficulty breathing. If I go off my diet my LDL goes way up. I choose not to go off my diet thus avoiding using an inhaler and Lipitor.
I understand that anecdotes are not evidence. You don't.
#1039 Ann
There are many people who don't have health insurance.
Abilify costs $450/bottle - hardly within reach of people w/o health insurance.
The inhaler I was prescribed costs $100+ and wasn't covered by my insurance. Lipitor costs over $300/bottle.
Drink your milkshakes and eat your white bread! I really don't give a *uck!
THEO sez:
I would call your attention to a box-front you can find at your neighborhood pharmacy (at least, CVS and Walgreens carries it). It's for a product named "PreserVision Eye Vitamin and Mineral Supplemenmt". The front includes a standard Quack Miranda warning, and the legend "Patented Formula". On the back is a standard-form "Supplement Facts" table. Inside the box is a leaflet containing the text "Patented—not available as a store brand." The inner folder claims "US Patent 6,660,297".
Thus, the product is a nutritional supplement and is covered by a US utility patent, with its attendant exclusivity.
The product is the subject of the AREDS 2 study. References:
AREDS2 Research Group. “Lutein/Zeaxanthin and Omega-3 Fatty Acids for Age-Related Macular Degeneration. The Age-Related Eye Disease Study 2 (AREDS2) Controlled Randomized Clinical Trial.” JAMA, published online May 5, 2013.
AREDS2 Research Group. “Lutein/Zeaxanthin for the Treatment of Age-Related Cataract.” JAMA Ophthalmology, published online May 5, 2013.
Chew et al. “Long-Term Effects of Vitamins C, E, Beta-Carotene and Zinc on Age-Related Macular Degeneration.” Ophthalmology, published online April 11, 2013.
In other words, your excuse does not hold water: you are lying, ignorant, or both. I'd go with door 3.
THEO: I spend eight hours a day working in front of a computer screen, dealing with code fixes, database errors, and several other things paleolithic man could never hope to understand. Why the **** would a paleolithic diet be appropriate for me?
Ken: Patent medicines of the 1800's had numerous testimonials proclaiming their effectiveness. The primary ingredient of most patent medicines was alcohol. Testimonials alone are not sufficient evidence.
An no one is demanding that if you found a diet that controls symptoms reliability you must stop that right now.
The danger is trying to generalize from an anecdote (seems to work for me) to the entire population. Or even that it is working for you for some cause and effect way that isn't person specific.
Somehow I got a conditioned response to raisins that was consistent but highly irrational based on everything else I didn't react that way to. So some dietary reactions may not be about the food but how sick you got at one point when you ate that food because something else made you sick.
When I avoided all of the specific type of raisins that bothered me for an extended period of time to break the conditioned response I wouldn't be upset if other people ate raisins or assume that if they weren't on the avoid all raisin train they were only eating extremely unhealthy food no one would recommend.
@ ken:
Please don't take this as an affront.
If I understand correctly, you may not be taking meds that were prescribed for you- Lipitor
If you do have a condition that warrants their usage - please re-consider. A few years ago, I knew a woman who ran a sports facility, when given an rx for a similar med, she chose instead to use Red Yeast Rice. She had a stroke and survived but had difficulties with speaking, needing therapy for a long time She has never fully recovered. Previously, she was an active person who worked and drove on her own. Her life is compromised now but fortunately she is married and has a daughter who lives nearby.
Think about it- if I am clear about your situation.
#1165 Denice Thank you for your thoughtfulness. I write too hastily. I was prescribed Lipitor before I went on a diet, even though I was not overweight. By diet I dropped my LDL to safe limits. My SBM internist approves.
#1164 I did not advocate my diet or generalize.
SBM recognizes milk as a common allergent.
ken:
They why bother bringing it up?
#1164 There is such a thing as a raisin allergy. Are you saying that you now can eat raisins because you no longer have a conditioned response?
#1167 GF My comment was directly addressed to THEO who mentioned dairy and wheat. It was not addressed to anyone else.
#1167 GF I also assume you are in good health so no need to change your diet.
I don't eat them in great quantity by themselves but I now can eat standard issue raisins when an ingredient in things when I couldn't when I regularly threw up every time I ate them.
It didn't seem to be an allergy as I could eat all other dried fruit with similar additives and the grapes the raisins are made from.
@#1160 --
Yes. Well. A lot of people can't afford to get CBT either. But you did, didn't you?
Also:
WTF does that have to do with Kelly Brogan's ostensibly virtuous refusal to prescribe it and drugs like it? Do you think she offers those "sophisticated specialty lab" tests that aren't covered by insurance at no charge?
Moreover, Bausch & Lomb has been suing infringers for over a decade, including CVS recently for trying to make an end run.
There's a brief discussion of patenting supplements (motivated by the B&L one) here. The author's search criteria generate pretty noisy results, but there's no real shortage of other examples, such as 8,865,767: h_ttp://goo.gl/0ok13Y
^ Meet the patent holder on that last item.
^^ Nothing says "competent mental health professional" like a testimonial page. With people endorsing your supplement.
Boca Raton, true to its history as always.
#1176 As far as I know she wouldn't be licensed to practice psychotherapy in NY. She has no professional degree to warrant such a claim.
When the AMA goes after an MD with justified evidence, I will call them a quack.
#1173 Ann
I was lucky to get CBT years ago- my insurance covered it. Medicare is more restrictive and wouldn't cover it now.
ken: you do realize, don't you, that the AMA has absolutely NO governing power over MDs? That a huge number of MDs don't even belong to the AMA (or any of the specialty groups like the AAP)? MD/DOs in the USA are governed only by their state licensing boards, who are often too understaffed and overwhelmed. Here in NJ, the Board results are public on the internet, and you can see from the investigation results often how much time and effort it takes just to CENSURE a physician, much less suspend or terminate his/her license to practice.
@#1179 --
Medicare covers CBT. But so what? Your objection was to the prescription of psychotropics, Where is your empathy for the suffering of those who benefit from them?
#1181 Ann
I have empathy for those who were wrongly precribed Abilify for depression and suffered side effects.
Here's the quote-
"Many psychiatrists and scientists worry about this antipsychotic boom. They point out that there’s limited evidence of the drugs’ usefulness in treating depression over the long term, and that they have serious side effects, such as sedation, dramatic weight gain, and an increased risk of diabetes. In about one-quarter of cases, these drugs also cause akathisia, a pronounced feeling of restlessness described as making you want to jump out of your skin.“What’s happened recently is remarkably heavy marketing of antipsychotics,” Allen Frances, former chairman of the psychiatry department at Duke University School of Medicine, told BuzzFeed News. Doctors, he added, are prescribing antipsychotics for depression “too quickly, without clear indication, and under pressure from pharmaceutical companies.”
www.buzzfeed.com/catferguson/the-antipsychotic-boom?utm_term=.paLXk4oPZ…
#1181 Ann -
My empathy is for those who were prescribed Abilify for depression and suffered side effects.
Quote from article-
"Many psychiatrists and scientists worry about this antipsychotic boom. They point out that there’s limited evidence of the drugs’ usefulness in treating depression over the long term, and that they have serious side effects, such as sedation, dramatic weight gain, and an increased risk of diabetes. In about one-quarter of cases, these drugs also cause akathisia, a pronounced feeling of restlessness described as making you want to jump out of your skin.“What’s happened recently is remarkably heavy marketing of antipsychotics,” Allen Frances, former chairman of the psychiatry department at Duke University School of Medicine, told BuzzFeed News. Doctors, he added, are prescribing antipsychotics for depression “too quickly, without clear indication, and under pressure from pharmaceutical companies.”
www.buzzfeed.com/catferguson/the-antipsychotic-boom?utm_term=.paLXk4oPZ…
It's not empathy if you reserve it for people who share your feelings,
Those drugs are quite awful in many ways. But they treat conditions that are very painful to have and very difficult to treat. And some people benefit from them.
You're just adding to the stigmatization of the mentally ill by demonizing them. But that's no surprise. You've had some run-ins with stigma-reinforcement before.
@Justthestats start with fruits veggies beans nuts and seeds and lean proteins and avoid dairy and wheat gluten. Go from there and then get a blood test done an IGG test to see if you have any food sensitivities and avoid those foods.
I stand corrected there is a MOUNTAIN of evidence to support nutritional supplements after you have been diagnosed with a disease
Good luck patenting Fish oil or Vitamin C
Re: the DHA study, it again suggests supplementation can reduce the risk of disease, not that supplementation is effectie at treating disease one acquired. That’s the claim you’ve been asked to support –care to try again?
This is just the beginning I am sure if I spent a full 8 hours I could amass significant data. Its all out there but your over lords the pharmaceutical industry censor it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25445629
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25909794
Why would one wish to patent fish oil or vitamin C, when clearly multi supplement companies are realizing sufficient profits by producing and selling them without holding exclusive patent rights?
Theo, doesn’t basic intellectual honesty require you have that significant data already ‘amassed’ before making the statement?
From your first link (bold for emphasis):
“Therefore, the supplementation of these types of lipids may represent additional option treatment for chronic systemic diseases, such as Systemic Lupus Erythematous and other rheumatic diseases. The role of these lipids has not been well established, yet.”
Re: the second link, there’s insufficient information in the abstract to assess the study’s outcome (for example, they state “ω-3 PUFAs resulted in a statistically significant decrease in aortic augmentation index” without providing p values, or describing the statistical analysis performed). If you can provide a full text copy of the translated a publication I’d be happy to discuss it (I trust you have it available, as I’m sure you would not have offered as evidence in support of your argument a study you have not read yourself.)
http://www.nutraceuticalsworld.com/contents/view_breaking-news/2011-10-…
Wow, that non-patented stuff seems to sell pretty well.....
JGC why are you so skeptical about nutrition?
we already know a proper diet can reverse high blood pressure and cholesterol. Then why is it a stretch to think we cant harness that power and put it into a capsule or drink to help HEAL you? thats baffling to me. of course it works
THEO- What we're skeptical of is your claim that it can cure all maladies. "Good brakes can prevent traffic accidents" is reasonable. "You can drink and drive all you want because if you have good enough brakes, you'll never have an accident" is not.
I’m not skeptical about nutrition: I’m instead skeptical of your specific claims regarding nutrition (“When diet is correct medicine is of no need”).
Because to date you’ve offered no evidence ‘harnessing that power to help heal you” has been or may likely be achieved.
Then there should be a robust body of evidence demonstrating that it works, and that “when diet is correct medicine is of no need”. Let’s see it.
To some extent in some people some of the time. It can make a big difference but it is not always do the whole job all by itself.
Because sometimes the diets that change short-term disease markers are as much about what you aren't eating as much of not just what one food or nutrients. Expecting to change nothing and a pill is going to give you the exact same effect as a diet overhaul....really? Especially since only a few of the things they put in pills are actually part of the diet that may reduce your blood pressure or cholesterol.
we already know a proper diet can reverse high blood pressure and cholesterol.
Tell that to Jim Fixx.
"Ester-C® is a patented immune health formula that stays in your immune system for 24 full hours, providing you with around-the-clock immune support you can depend on."
But Theo can't be arsed... never mind, here's something insignificant instead.
It's the worst kind of censorship, where information is suppressed by putting it out in public!
@ Theo
It was tried with red wine a decade ago*. Didn't work much.
Also, for someone who earlier on the thread talked, not without some good reasons, about the superiority of a veggie-heavy diet over fast-food (organic kale vs hamburger and fries, it was), you are not very consistent.
I doubt that gulping pills made of crushed organic kale while still eating junk food is going to make the trick.
Although I would cynically admit that people will buy it nonetheless.
* and for us French people, let's just say that rendering some good wine into a pill and claiming it's the same is just blasphemy of the worse kind.
Then why is it a stretch to think we cant harness that power and put it into a capsule or drink to help HEAL you?
Then it would be a drug. Which Theo doesn't like.
Ester-C patent 1 and patent 2.
You lose, Iliya, again, on the very same subject as comments 1162 and 1174. But you're too damned stupid to quit while you're behind.
Maybe you should change brands on whatever you're gobbling for that purpose.
Resveratrol? A story unto itself.
1200 Indeed!
There is a supplement that really works. It helps to treat "the most common and widespread nutritional disorder in the world" (WHO). It was developed and tested by real (Canadian) scientists. It can be made from junk and it will make no one wealthy.
It's called, in its current version, the Lucky Iron Fish (no links, easy to find).
via Mike the Mad Biologist
Resveratrol, occasionally pronounced as 'reservatrol' ( yes, seriously/ prn) is still being hawked as the be-all and end-all or suchlike.
Of course if you drink wine for it, the deadly alcohol cancels out its life enhancing effects. Or so they tell me.
One might recall that the mere flavor of coffee "antidotes" homeopathics.
Narad, that's hilarious!
So the coffee ice cream I just ate cancelled out all the qi enhancement achieved by the green tea I let steep until it's
somewhat thick.
But woo estimates, I should be dead.
According to Null, each drink causes the loss of "one million brain cells" ( sometimes it's liver cells or both) which obviously explains his astonishing brilliance and our fellow/ sister minions' fabled cognitive inadequacies**.
I've even heard that Orac has been known to have a few.
** family characteristic we enjoy saying the exact opposite of what we mean
That should be BY
Almost, but not totally, unrelated -
http://xkcd.com/1526/
Proper Johnny
Accept no substitutes
Hairy Doctor It’s the worst kind of censorship, where information is suppressed by putting it out in public! MDs have authority in the view of many people. What they say is Gospel . If your Doctor tells you supplements are a waste of money and it doesn't work it effects public opinion. Clearly all of yours. Think about the implications of nutritional supplements working? Which they do. It would destroy billions in revenue, turn upside down the entire medical establishment. Indict decades worth of pharmaceutical training. Its a major threat so of course doctors who promote supplements are quacks. Of course anyone who promotes this is a loon. It baffles me how blind you all are. This movement is happening grass roots we are not waiting for authority to tell us. Thats for the last hold out of deniers to wait for.
Furthermore you rarely ever hear a great story about the benefits of nutritional supplements or the latest research about them on the evening news. Its all Pharmaceuticals. all the time. They spend huge money on advertising so why would the evening news contradict their clients? they wouldn’t. So just face it you are victims of the pharmaceutical industry. You are relics of the past that still think nutritional supplements have no science supporting them.
My claim is that diet lifestyle and optimal nutrition can reverse a lot of health problems. not just pills
http://terrywahls.com/about-the-wahls-
protocol
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17875549
.drperlmutter.
Be curious and maybe you will find the truth its out there but you must seek it. It will not be served to you in a soundbite on CNN.
THEO- You don't seek the truth. You just listen to soundbites. If you spent five minutes seeking the truth you'd know doctors do talk about nutrition.
I guess THEO missed the part where the Supplement Industry is a 30+ Billion dollar a year profit-driven powerhouse with the ability to bend the US Government to its will (for example, the orchestrated defeat of every attempt at decent regulation over the past 30 years).
THEO, your original claim was that nutrition was a panacea, a cure for all illnesses. Native Americans had far healthier diets than their European counterparts. That didn't save them from smallpox or measles, which cut them down by the million. I read of one case where a person with measles entered an Inuit village. Of the 99 inhabitants of the village, only one survived.
A healthy diet is no guarantee against dying from infection.
Or our ancestors, from Egypt, Mesopotamia, Greece, Rome, China, etc. etc. etc. who ate 100% organic foods, yet died in droves from Epidemics, had infant mortality rates of 50% or more, and barely lived more than 30 - 40 years, if they survived childhood.
"Furthermore you rarely ever hear a great story about the benefits of nutritional supplements or the latest research about them on the evening news"
Do I really have to point out the obvious here?
And tyouevidence that tdo in fact work would be...what
Theo, your evidence that they do indeed work as you claim (“When diet is correct medicine is of no need”) would be what, exactly?
Be specific.
C’mon—you’ve had more than eight hours to ‘amass significant data”.
Let's be serious:
even during the darkest days of the Great Recession ( c. 2008-2010+), a quick internet search illustrated that people in North America and Western Europe were still spending billions** on supplements and associated products. During that same period of time, so-called healthy food supermarkets grew by leaps and bounds while more recently, healthier fast food establishments have increased tremendously ( you know the names of these companies) Obviously people value these options. Did they just suddenly decide to eat in a more healthy fashion?
Am I to assume that a news blackout about nutrition kept those poor struggling souls, hopelessly blinded by the agenda of the corporatocray, in the dark or, that perhaps the media might even be complicit in helping push food fads and nutrition myths in order to pad their own ratings?
** IIRC, slightly up in the US and slightly down in the UK -
that should be CORPORATOCRACY
Yes, it is.
And as the above shows, it's a very popular claim, your intimations that its truth is being suppressed notwithstanding.
The question is: On what evidence do you base it?
OK. That study doesn't show diet and lifestyle reversing a lot of health problems.
There's evidence suggesting that Omega-3 fatty acids have a modest anti-inflammatory effect. But that's not what you're claiming.
Again, stipulated that it's a very popular claim. People can make money off of it, even. Good money. Perlmutter is such a person. But he's a claim-maker, not a claim-prover.
And the question is: On what evidence is the claim based?
Everybody on the damn thread who's asked you for specifics is doing exactly that.
That's good, because I don't watch TV barely at all.
@Lawrence
(for example, the orchestrated defeat of every attempt at decent regulation over the past 30 years).
They don’t need to be regulated they are SAFE. unlike the potions with side effects the pharmaceutical industry develops.
"I've said it before and I'll say it again, and again. There's no free lunch with pharmaceuticals. We must disabuse ourselves of the notion that we can yank only one thread out of the spider web. When you pull it, the whole thing moves.
When you expose your body to pharmaceutical grade chemical influence, it is forced to adjust.” Dr Brogan MD
@ JGC is this the kind of evidence you cite and hold up as truth? your truth is based on profit motive .
Peter C Gøtzsche
Psychiatric drugs are responsible for the deaths of more than half a million people aged 65 and older each year in the Western world, as I show below.1 Their benefits would need to be colossal to justify this, but they are minimal.1 2
http://www.bmj.com/content/350/bmj.h2435
@Grey I live the truth.
@Denice the reason its growing is because it WORKS and its spreading word of mouth. Now if there was fair and balanced coverage of nutrition on the evening news and it was supported by your physician it would EXPLODE the only thing keeping a lid on it is the pharmaceutical industry Corporatacracy <——FACT
Terry wahls story should be on the evening news. What harm is going to come from flowing her diet? NOTHING
Not only does the PALEO diet help with MS its heals numerous other diseases utilized by Dr Mark Hyman. Countless testimonies of people being healed by food. Thats Evidence!
Ann
it’s a very popular claim, your intimations that its truth is being suppressed notwithstanding.
The question is: On what evidence do you base it?
Watch the evening news and see for yourself. Ask your doctor and see for yourself. Survey your friends and see for yourself
“I ate breakfast last week with the president of a network news division and he told me that during non-election years, 70% of the advertising revenues for his news division come from pharmaceutical ads. And if you go on TV any night and watch the network news, you’ll see they become just a vehicle for selling pharmaceuticals. He also told me that he would fire a host who brought onto his station a guest who lost him a pharmaceutical account.” ~Kennedy
Sure, it restores all your HP and makes you temporarily invincible, but it also makes you GLOW BLUE for like five minutes.
@THEO- You don't "live the truth". You just swallow every single lie you hear without a single thought.
THEO, although I am definitely not Glenn Greenwald, ferreting out closely-guarded secrets, for some ungodly reason, I manage to dig up diverse nutritional claims on a daily basis and, in fact, I even discuss them and tell people where to access them in their original forms-
mostly for sport.
If this information is being actively suppressed by a grand coalition of government, corporations and the media, why am I, poor simple creature that I be, able to find a never ending supply of stories about natural health, phyto-nutritents, herbs, alternative treatments, brave maverick doctors, warrior mothers, energy medicine, soul psychology and whatnot?
I mean it's EASY.
THEO:
Actually, no it isn't. A testimonial, assuming it's genuine and not made up by the people trying to sell you something, is the lowest form of evidence. All it is is someone's subjective opinion.
THEO,
We don't know if supplements are safe because they haven't been put through the same rigorous testing that pharma drugs have been. When they are tested, we often find they are not safe at all, for example, supplemental calcium tablets that increase the risk of a heart attack by 30%, in the same ball park as Vioxx's CV risk.
That's a curious turn of phrase - "pharmaceutical grade" is a measure of purity, not strength. Brogan links to a paper reviewing the carcinogenicity of various psychiatric drugs that concludes that most of them are carcinogens. However, a closer look reveals that this is based on animal studies using huge doses, and evidence for carcinogenesis in humans is sparse at best. In some cases, fluoxetine for example, these drugs appear to show promise against cancer.
Here's a more balanced look at Gøtzsche's claims, which many disagree with. There may be some grounds for arguing that psychiatric drugs are overprescribed, but I suspect it's another case of younger people not remembering the days before we had effective treatments. How bad could it have been before we had effective antidepressants and antipsychotics? [/sarcasm]
No, you have simply been taken in by a slick and clever advertising campaign that cynically exploits your fear of illness and death.
THEO,
Looking at this study it seems that in the US the use of "nonvitamin, nonmineral dietary supplements" fell from 18.9% in 2002 to 17.7% in 2012. Also:
That's hardly a sign that the dams are bursting, as I have heard people claiming for the past 30 years or more. Fewer than 2% of people using pre or probiotics, despite them being advertised endlessly everywhere? The miracle cure for arthritis (glucosamine and chondroitin)falling out of favor? Fewer people using echincaea? Why are people losing faith in these miracles? Could it be that they don't work?
Why do you think the drug companies want to stop people buying supplements when they are often the ones manufacturing them? In 2007 "83 million adults spent $33.9 billion out-of-pocket on CAM". Why would the drug companies marketing supplements be any more trustworthy than those marketing drugs? Look at Roche's malfeasance in the 70s illegally inflating vitamin prices. If you have little faith in pharma drugs you should have zero faith in supplements.
THEO:
Now that you've had time to think about the fact that supplements can be patented, what do you think about the fact that they typically aren't and they are typically not that well studied?
In other words "I got nothing--maybe you can find some where I've failed."
Watch the evening news and see for yourself.
Wait...I thought there were no news stories about supplements because the media is in the pocket of Big Pharma.
shay,
It'll be on the news just after the item on those FEMA camps that the UN built. You know, the ones they have been about to herd the US public into for the past few decades. That'll be followed by the announcement that Bush and Blair are being impeached for war crimes.
Fine: Think of it like smoking or not-smoking.
Nobody cares if you personally choose to smoke. You can expose yourself to all the risks you like.
You don't get to blow smoke in my face though - that's forcing the risks of your activities on me. Second hand smoke is a thing.
And you shouldn't be smoking in schools, in lung cancer wards, etc. If you do, there will be consequences and people are right to get mad at you