Just when I thought I had heard every bone-headed historical analogy by antivaccinationists

Ever since SB 277 became law, I didn't think I'd be writing about it much anymore. Actually, I probably won't be writing about it much any more, because it's now a done deal. It's the law of the land in California. Beginning in 2016, non-medical exemptions (i.e., religious exemptions and personal belief exemptions) to school vaccine mandates will go away. Only medical exemptions will be permitted, which is as it should be. Sure, implementation will be a big deal, and I'll probably have something to say about it as news of how it will happen filters out. However, right now, not much is going on. So why blog about it now? The reason is simple.

I've just seen an analogy made about SB 277 that I've never seen before.

I had thought I'd seen them all. To antivaccinationists, SB 277 is the Holocaust with antivaccine parents being labeled the same way Jews were labeled during Hitler's Germany. It's the equivalent of the Tuskegee syphilis experiment. It's fascism, authoritarianism, and Communism all rolled up into one! In brief, it's pure evil. At least, that's how antivaccinationists see it. Indeed, I thought I'd heard it all, but leave it to the so-called "Thinking Moms' Revolution" to provide a new, ever more ridiculous example, that I'd never heard of before and that never would have occurred to me. Of course, the reason it never would have occurred to me before is the same reason it never would have occurred to any sane person with a rudimentary knowledge of history. It's so incredibly, hysterically exaggerated and ahistorical. In this, it is like antivaccine analogies invoking the Holocaust.

Did it ever occur to you that SB 277 is exactly like 1700s Ireland? I know because a "Thinking Mom" whom I've never considered or encountered before tells us so:

Many attempts were made to thwart Ireland’s nationalistic pride. (In fact, there is a side of the history of Ireland and Great Britain that is still not fully resolved.) So how does this have any bearing on SB 277?

The Irish at the time spoke Gaelic, not English. They were scholars and poets, religious and traditionally devout. Religious leaders spoke Latin and Greek. Beginning in 1702, a series of Penal Laws were passed in Ireland by Great Britain aimed at extinguishing this rich Irish culture. One of the first laws stated, “Whereas it has been found by experience that tolerating at papists keeping schools or instructing youth in literature is one great reason of many of the natives continuing ignorant of the principles of the true religion, and strangers to the scriptures, and of their neglecting to conform themselves to the laws of this realm, and of their not using the English habit and language, no person of the popish religion shall publicly teach school or instruct youth, or in private houses teach youth, except only the children of the master or mistress of the private house, upon pain of twenty pounds, and prison for three months for every such offence. 7 Will III c.4 (1695)” [Editor’s note: don’t you love it when educational reformers sound like they themselves haven’t been educated?] As noted here, “The Punishment Laws passed by the Anglo-Irish parliament were so harmful to the Irish people that the Frenchman Montesquieu described them as “conceived by demons, written in blood, and registered in Hell.” Sound familiar? One commentator said that “It was not merely the persecution of a religion, it was an attempt to degrade and demoralize a whole nation.” Or, to put it mildly, a kind of religious apartheid.

Many have been the examples of a ruling nation trying to stamp out the religion and culture of a nation throughout history. Such examples exist today. If there is one depressing tendency throughout history, it's the tendency of conquerers or colonizers to eliminate anything that might fuel rebellion or resistance. Rulers vary in just how brutal they are about suppressing dissent and cultural characteristics that fule that dissent, but the tendency is the same.

So why does ShamROCK mention this particular time period in Irish history? Surely you can see what's coming. If you can't, ShamROCK is more than happy to make it explicit:

SB 277 threatens a similar apartheid based upon the vaccine status of California’s children. Perhaps what transpired in Ireland could serve as inspiration for the future of California.

Because requiring that children be vaccinated before they attend school or are enrolled in day care is exactly like the Penal Laws in Ireland in the early 1700s, just as it is exactly like the Holocaust, the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, fascism, Communism, and whatever evils antivaccinationists can imagine as being related to SB 277. This sort of nonsense leads "ShamROCK" to opine:

I don’t see the “vaccine debate” as being different from a religious debate. By their nature, it’s impossible to debate people’s personal religious beliefs — simply because they are beliefs that are personal. That’s why we have the First Amendment. In a similar way, it has become equally impossible to debate the merits and demerits of vaccination in a civil manner because of the collision of personal beliefs on both sides of the question. Obviously, those who use personal belief exemptions are doing so based upon their personal beliefs, but the rationale for mandating vaccines is also hinged on personal beliefs, albeit scientific-sounding dogma about “herd immunity,” “resurging disease,” “debunked theories,” and vaccine reactions being rare, that have little basis in fact, logic, or science.

Although I've not infrequently likened alternative medicine and destructive beliefs that flow from it to a religion or a cult, the "vaccine debate" is nonetheless not the same thing as a religious debate, no matter what someone like ShamROCK believes. Wait. Scratch that. It is somewhat like a religious debate but not in the way ShamROCK thinks. It is antiscience versus science, as the battle between creationism and evolution is. However, in the case of the antivaccine movement, rarely is the motivation explicitly religious, as is the case with creationism. Nor is it an entire culture and world view, as, for example, Irish language and culture and Roman Catholicism were for the Irish. Indeed, SB 277 has nothing to do with stamping out religion or culture of the usually affluent, nearly always privileged members of the antivaccine movement. Rather, it has everything to do with protecting the rest of society from their antiscience and infectious disregard for the rest of society.

Right on cue, Shamrock demonstrates that disregard:

We live in a complex world and unless we build a wall around each state, that ever-elusive perfect “herd immunity” cannot be achieved. California already has high rates of vaccination, including measles vaccine, and we can see that their high rates of vaccination did protect them in the Disney outbreak, keeping rates of infection quite low, despite the high number of adults who either were never immune or are no longer, thereby invalidating that justification in the Pan/Allen bill. No panic. No spread of disease in schools. Not one school was shut down. No national emergency at all — except for media-propagated hysteria. Vaccinating the remaining tiny percentage of shoolchildren who have not been vaccinated already cannot prevent future outbreaks of measles as long as people are free to travel to places where measles is still endemic. In spite of all that, heavily influenced by pharmaceutical company donations and political posturing (see Doctor Bob’s Daily for June 25th at 3:35 p.m.), SB 277 emerged and fast-tracked its way through the legislature to become law, and children whose parents wish to abstain or delay even one vaccine are being marginalized. They are being denied their basic rights as citizens afforded to them by the constitutions of California and the United States, based on their religious or personal beliefs. Religious segregation if you will.

The appeal to high statewide vaccination rates is, of course, a common factoid trotted out by antivaccine activists that seems reasonable but is quite deceptive. Yes, California has high statewide vaccination rates. That's not the problem. The problem is pockets of children with low vaccination rates in the very affluent communities that are home to antivaccinationists, rates below that necessary for herd immunity. That's where the outbreaks begin, as predicted when those pockets were first noted. These are the communities that are home to antivaccine or antivaccine-pandering pediatricians like Dr. Jay Gordon or Dr. Bob Sears, the latter of whom touts that only 50% of his practice is completely unvaccinated. Yes, an increasingly mobile population means that traveling can result in exposure to diseases like the measles—which is all the more reason to be vaccinated! Similarly, travelers from areas where measles is endemic can bring measles to the US—which is also all the more reason to maintain high vaccination rates, so that even if one or a handful of people catch the measles a larger outbreak is prevented by herd immunity. Finally, most adults have been vaccinated against te measles, but even so in the case of immunosuppression they can lose their immunity. Indeed, the first death from measles in years occurred in just such an adult.

As for "freedom," one can't help but note that among antivaccine activists, "freedom" is all about the parents' freedom and "parental rights" and seldom, if ever, about the rights of the child to good quality preventive medical care, which includes vaccines to protect them from dangerous illnesses. It's all about the parents, not the children. Indeed, the overall attitude tends to be the one explicitly stated by Rand Paul in what had to be a Freudian slip: “The state doesn’t own the children. Parents own the children, and it is an issue of freedom.”

The freedom and rights of the parents über alles, that is. The parents' appeal to "freedom" and "parental rights" are what I like to call an antivaccine dog whistle, reasons that resonate because everyone's for freedom and rights, because...'Merica!

ShamROCK ends thusly:

The United States was founded on the principle that people should be free to practice their religion based on their own beliefs. That principle is being tested right now in California. Constitutional rights must and will prevail, but only the will of the people will see it through. It is going to be a fight, maybe the fight of our lives. The lesson from Ireland is that it can be done — even if it takes 120 years. We don’t have 120 years; we have only a matter of months. But there was no social media in 18th century Ireland . . .

Because, to antivaccinationists, SB 277 is just like the battles waged by the Irish against the British. Of course, if that analogy is taken far enough, it could easily go to a very, dark place. I'm referring, of course, to the numerous bombings carried out by the Irish Republican Army and other groups over the course of over three decades last century, particularly the 1970s. Is that where ShamROCK really wants to go with this. One really needs to be careful when making boneheaded historical analogies.

I can't help but finishing wondering what off-base, tone-deaf historical analogy antivaccinationists will come up with next for their "plight." Hmmmm. Let me think. Will it be the oppression and genocide committed against Native Americans? I wouldn't put it past them, although one can't help but note that a lot fewer Native Americans would have died if they had had access to vaccines against diseases brought by the European conquerors.

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"...we can see that their high rates of vaccination did protect them in the Disney outbreak, keeping rates of infection quite low..."

And this is an argument against ensuring a vaccinated population, how?

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

The United States was founded on the principle that people should be free to practice their religion based on their own beliefs.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Freedom from religion is a necessary condition for freedom of religion. That means that it is appropriate to restrict religious beliefs that are actually harmful to others That category includes sending your kids to school when they have not been vaccinated because of your religious beliefs against vaccination. Such kids are a danger to other kids who either cannot (for legitimate medical reasons) be vaccinated, or in whom the vaccine fails to take.

People like "ShamROCK" can still home school their unvaccinated kids. SB277 does not, and should not, prevent that. But that would mean she has to take responsibility for her children's education. That may not be an ideal outcome, but at least her spawn won't be endangering other people's kids. And at least she would be putting her money and effort where her mouth is.

By Eric Lund (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

In a similar way, it has become equally impossible to debate the merits and demerits of vaccination in a civil manner because [while the merits of routine childhood vaccination are established as fact the presumed demerits of routine childhood vaccination represent articles of faith].

FTFY

The United States was founded on the principle that people should be free to practice their religion based on their own beliefs.

And SB277 has donenothing to deny anyone that freedom What you're really complaining about is that doing so is no longer as likely to be without consequence, and you'll no longer be allowed to place others at increased risk of infection as a consequence of your exercising your freedom to practice your religion based on tyour own beliefs.

In fact, there is a side of the history of Ireland and Great Britain that is still not fully resolved.

Hmm - mistress of the understatement, isn't she?

By Rebecca Fisher (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

They're using this analogy wrong. As Ireland is not a hotbed of the Church of England nowadays this should be their rallying cry for successful subversion of the evil occupier. A hidden Sears book in every household, a Gordon hole to hide from raids. Of course, there's the issue with Ireland not becoming the land of poetry etc until 150 years later, and was mainly considered the most backwards corner of Europe for most of the 17th and 18th century. But that again fits with the analogy, antivaccinationists are truly the 18th century Irish of the 21st century.

"California already has high rates of vaccination"
"and we can see that their high rates of vaccination did protect them in the Disney outbreak"
"No panic."
"No spread of disease in schools."
"Not one school was shut down."
"No national emergency at all"

Wait a minute...

Interestingly, she elevates her cause by comparison to a historical one that most likely involved a great number of people over centuries.

So I guess that means we're English now, not N-zis.

I read this the other day and have yet to run it past my select committee of Irish born cohorts ( both Irelands, -btw-). I know that their responses will probably involve cursing in both English and Gaelic, not Latin and Greek.

At any rate, as if this isn't wild enough, SIMULTANEOUSLY AoA posted a link to an article by a woman who is protesting Merck, carrying signs, who compares her 'quest' to that of the Polish people who opposed various conquerers/ rulers.

She has even written a poem on the matter.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

At any rate, as if this isn’t wild enough, SIMULTANEOUSLY AoA posted a link to an article by a woman who is protesting Merck, carrying signs, who compares her ‘quest’ to that of the Polish people who opposed various conquerers/ rulers.

Oh, FFS. Dare I look? Not now, I think.

The Polish and Irish have a sort of national bromance, BTW. It's very sweet.

Un-freakin'-believable.

By Selena Wolf (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

@ JP:

I advise that you not read her poetry/ blog unless you have a few hours to recover from that incredibly sublime experience.

Oh wait, you read students' exams/ papers in a foreign language: you'll survive.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

...and we can see that their high rates of vaccination did protect them in the Disney outbreak, keeping rates of infection quite low...

By the same logic, just because the dam springs a few minor leaks here and there is no reason to start fear-mongering about how it needs to be repaired and reinforced; there'll be plenty of time for panic once the dam fails catastrophically and wipes out a few towns downstream.

I wonder if ShamROCK thinks people should be allowed to practice human sacrifice because of "freedom of religion?"

She's got the "rock" part of her 'nym correct -- from the neck up.

(I have two Irish grandmothers, one of whom used to refer to Eamon de Valera as "that damn dago." This woman is a clueless fool).

For those who also lurk on facebook groups 'Anti-Vax Wall of Shame' and 'Things Anti-Vaxxers Say', they are seriously becoming unhinged over this whole SB277, with many documented cases of violent threats.

Clearly, not all anti-vaxxers are mentally ill and capable of violence, and much of it is insincere e-thuggery, but considering that a number of anti-vaxxers have committed violence against their own 'vaccine injured' children, I would not be surprised if we end up seeing some real violence against pro-vax doctors/politicians/activists.

So frustrating when people are so deluded that rather than accept that their arguments are flawed, they resort to fascist means of silencing opposition...

Since when is anti-vax a religion? I guess it has zealots?

And it's own separate culture, traditions, and history? As much as I wonder what color the sky is in their world I thought they'd mostly been just regular Americans from all of the various ethinicities and cultures that predominate the affluent and privledge communities.

Clearly, not all anti-vaxxers are mentally ill and capable of violence,

I'm not really sure about the way in which you connect these phrases.

Just sayin'.

Maybe we should just create a Mad Libs template for these AVers.

By Chris Hickie (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

Presumably ShamROCK is of the opinion that the current incidence of vaccine preventable diseases in California is acceptable or possibly too low and, therefore, the current level of vaccination is sufficient or too high. One might reasonably wonder what target VPD rate we could all agree on would be.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

Since she's so enamored of older Irish culture, I say we take a page from early Irish bee laws, wherein an individual stung by someone else's bees is able to sue for damages. So to bring the analogy home, anyone infected by shamROCK or her children should be able to sue them for damages suffered.

As I was reading Orac's post, I kept thinking that the next analogy would be something about Europeans and Native Tribes. I planned on mentioning it after I finished reading, and then there it was in the closing.

I can’t help but finishing wondering what off-base, tone-deaf historical analogy antivaccinationists will come up with next for their “plight.”

300 Spartans ... or at least the movie version of the same?

The Founding Fathers were clearly aware of the downside, e,g,, war, of a state supporting one, in this case Christian, sect over another and/or state sponsored persecution adherents of other sects

Obviously they'd been keen to avoid this type of conflict in their new nation, hence the Establishment Clause.

Obviously ShamROCK is acquainted with the same, now historic, facts, the Founding Fathers knew.

However, after relating the historic facts, ShamROCK goes on to state:

I don’t see the “vaccine debate” as being different from a religious debate. By their nature, it’s impossible to debate people’s personal religious beliefs — simply because they are beliefs that are personal. That’s why we have the First Amendment.

This entire paragraph is patently ludicrous ... as is everything that follows.

Mostly just the same old "underdog fighting the forces of evil" that anti-vaxers ... among others ... prefer to view themselves as being, rather than the outright wrong loons that they actually are.

Speaking of the Founding Fathers though, I wonder what side folks like Ben Franklin would come down on in the vaccine non-debate?

Would it be the science side or the anti-vax nonsensical belief side?

#18

I am waiting for the Trail of Tears/Bataan Death March/Khmer Rouge Killing Fields mash up.

Being personal may mean that she has the right to believe any fool nonsense, including her implied belief that personal beliefs come to people randomly and full-formed, rather than being influenced by anyone or anything around them.

It doesn't mean we don't get to disagree with or debate those beliefs: if someone asserts that (making this one up) all people born in the month of August are sleeper agents for the Albanian government, I don't have to say "that's a nice belief, dear. I guess you don't want to see my friend Alan." I am--legally as well as logically and ethically--free to say "that's ridiculous" or "where did you get that idea" or "prove it."

I can say the same about anti-vax "beliefs" or someone's religious beliefs (as they can about my lack thereof): in fact, a huge amount of discourse is people asserting and debating their not-always-personal beliefs about religion, art, politics, and sports.

I am willing to grant her implied claim that she has neither factual nor logical support for her anti-vax beliefs, that they're all about her self-image or tribal identification. But they didn't come from nowhere, or from a radio receiver that the CIA implanted in her brain--she got them from other people, and is trying to spread them to other people.

@EBMOD

There's a particularly egregious example over on The Poxes blog. It's so incoherent I can't even tell if its a serious threat or not - he mentions castrating pro-vaccine advocates with butter knives, among other things.

Actually, as soon as I write is out sequentially like that, it becomes obvious that it is a serious threat. The original was much more...confusing.

How about a War of The Worlds analogy?

The Martian conquerers oppress the Earthlings until they are wiped out by diseases that they have no immunity against.

What?

The English? Come on, you can do better than that for a historical villain!

How about Julian the Apostate, still pretty weaksauce as far as historical villains go, but you can keep the tortured analogy of SB277 being like outlawing a group you disagree with from being teachers. One of the main elements of his kinder, gentler brand of christian persecution was forbidding christian teachers from using pagan texts (the core of the Roman ciriculum) and only funding pagan teachers from the state treasury.

The Martian conquerers oppress the Earthlings until they are wiped out by diseases that they have no immunity against.

Wait, if we eliminate vaccine preventable diseases with an effective vaccination program, won't we leave ourselves defenseless against the Martians? Until they land, we can't know which diseases will be most effective, so any move to reduce or eliminate disease could have dire consequences. We should eliminate immunization immediately to be prepared for the Martian invasion!

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

I can’t help but finishing wondering what off-base, tone-deaf historical analogy antivaccinationists will come up with next for their “plight.”

When I saw the photo of the fortified house at the top of your post, I immediately thought of the Highland Clearances.

By Rich Woods (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

@DGR

Speaking of the Founding Fathers though, I wonder what side folks like Ben Franklin would come down on in the vaccine non-debate?

Would it be the science side or the anti-vax nonsensical belief side?

They would probably say that Franklin would be on their side, and as support use this quote:

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

"As for “freedom,” one can’t help but note that among antivaccine activists, “freedom” is all about the parents’ freedom and “parental rights” and seldom, if ever, about the rights of the child to good quality preventive medical care, which includes vaccines to protect them from dangerous illnesses. It’s all about the parents, not the children. "

Part of this stems from the concept of rights. The right of parents to raise their kids as they see fit is a negative right (it requires no action by another person or government). In contrast, your talking about children's "right" to healthcare requires another person or government to provide it and is called a positive "right." But no all people believe in the concepts positive rights.

Paul in particular is not a fan of positive rights that require someone else be forced to do or pay something in order for the positive right to be fulfilled.

But, setting conditions for attending public school is not an issue of rights or freedom. It is setting conditions on the privilege of attending a public school.

Considering the track record the US has on obesity, childhood development and infant mortality this law fits right in.

looking forward to seeing the state screw up again, at least it's Americans blue on blue for a change.

Well done the Senate, maybe it will help with population control, Connie will be swiveling in her box.

"They would probably say that Franklin would be on their side..."

Franklin probably knew that people could be unreasonable enough that they would need a law requiring vaccinations of children for the benefit of their families and their neighbors in order to participate in school but I doubt he thought it would be a "thing". I am reminded of career politicians here for some odd reason.

Anyway, no one knows what he would have said about this. Antivaccinationists are just throwing out arguments to see what catches on much like politicians do. I suppose historical Ireland is as good as any idea in that strategy, but it did give me a good laugh. Especially after the recent Magna Carta series by Dr. David Healy. He is "pro-vax" in case you were wondering.

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

Two things come to mind.
Since California's exemption was never a religious one, but rather personal belief, I wish we had a breakdown of how many of them were actually based on religious belief, and how many were more along the lines of, "I don't think it's safe."
Also, ShamROCK's post comes as close as anything I've seen to admitting that the AV mindset is actually a matter of belief and has nothing to do with science.

As easy as it is to claim to be a religion these days, I would predict a "Church of Bodily Purity" of some such to be founded by the antivaxxers. It wouldn't help immediately in California, of course, but they might be able to mount a challenge based on the Religious Freedom Restoration Act.

By machintelligence (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

I can’t help but finishing wondering what off-base, tone-deaf historical analogy antivaccinationists will come up with next for their “plight.”

Well, I drew Albigensians in the office pool, so I'm hoping...

@Denice Walter #7
When I read Orac's last paragraph, I briefly considered such possibility, but then I thought it was a bit over the top, and also that Polish history is not that well known. As I see, I was mistaken.
And now I just want to start swearing in Polish - and my, isn't our language just perfect for it (well, to be frank, Russian might be even better).

@machintelligence

Check out the Church of Illumination. It's a religion basically set up seemingly for the sole purpose of rejecting vaccines (and some other medical treatments).

It wouldn’t help immediately in California, of course, but they might be able to mount a challenge based on the Religious Freedom Restoration Act.

It doesn't apply to the states: City of Boerne v. Flores. California didn't enact a "mini-RFRA" in response, either (Mississippi did).

And now I just want to start swearing in Polish – and my, isn’t our language just perfect for it (well, to be frank, Russian might be even better).

I have been witness to passionate arguments about which language is better suited for swearing, Polish or Russian. I'm afraid I must remain a neutral party.

@JP

So, Swiss (Germand, French, Italian and Romansh)?

Say what you will about shamROCK post, she got one thing right. For her and likeminded fellows, the question of vaccines is religious one. It is not about science, it is about evil pharma spirits stealing souls of their precious snowflakes.

Which is refreshingly honest and over the table approach. No "pro safe vaccine" bovine feces or "we need proof". Nope. It is religious debate about what their beliefs are.

By The Smith of Lie (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

Actually, I like English for swearing as it has both the Germanic guttural aspect and the more smoothly-flowing, mellifluous Romantic side. Contrast is good.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

German. There is no language like it for vituperation.

There exists -- allegedly -- a Budeswehr</I anecdote in which an old-line NCO begins by scolding a private in the second person formal (Sie sind) and descends through every grammatical level to finally letting him have it in the third person, plural (Es ist!).

I suppose you have to German to appreciate the social nuances, though.

Sigh. Italics fail.

Actually, I like English for swearing as it has both the Germanic guttural aspect and the more smoothly-flowing, mellifluous Romantic side. Contrast is good.

English swear words are pretty much universally Germanic, I think; mostly one-syllable, good strong endings. That's what I like about them, and of course swearing in one's native tongue always has more impact that hearing or saying swears in other languages.

I can't deny the incredible creativity that Slavic morphology presents when it comes to profanity, though. I actually don't do much swearing myself in foreign languages, though, beyond things like "the devil take it," which is very mild.

Considering the track record the US has on obesity, childhood development and infant mortality this law fits right in.

I'm curious why you're referencing child mortality. It can't be to imply that the US record regarding child mortality is inferior to other developed nations, as I'm sure you're aware because different nations calculate child moratality rates in widely divergent manners it doesn't a valid metric by which to compare the quality of their health care services.

Second, what was your point re: child development?

Oh, I dunno, JP. Such high-value swears as "gosh", "darn", and "pshaw" don't strike me as having very strong endings. Now, "heck", there's a strong ending for you.

A wonderful old Dilbert has the pointy-haired boss "slipping in like a panther" to take the last cup of office coffee without making more. A guy dressed in a pseudo-devil suit carrying a giant spoon leaps out from behind a file cabinet to revenge this minor infraction, and shouts: "I am Phil, Prince of Insufficient Light! I darn you to heck!"

On the subject of euphemisms, I'm fond of telling those I am thoroughly sick of to "take a sexual departure".

By palindrom (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

Franklin is not the AV'ers friend.

"11/21/1736
Franklin Loses Son

Benjamin Franklin’s four-year-old son died of smallpox.

Rumors began to circulate claiming that the boy had been inoculated. Franklin published a denial and advocated inoculation.

“In 1736 I lost one of my Sons, a fine Boy of 4 Years old, taken by the Small Pox in the common way. I long regretted that I had not given it to him by Inoculation, which I mention for the Sake of Parents, who omit that Operation on the Supposition that they should never forgive themselves if a Child died under it; my Example showing that the Regret may be the same either way, and that therefore the safer should be chosen.”

— Benjamin Franklin, quoted in Franklin on Franklin by Paul Zall"

http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/benjamin-franklin

I wonder what side folks like Ben Franklin would come down on in the vaccine non-debate?

Would it be the science side or the anti-vax nonsensical belief side?

Well, from The Medical World of Benjamin Franklin:

Most significant, perhaps, was his lifelong endorsement of smallpox inoculation. [...] Franklin wrote articles promoting inoculation and its safety as early as 1731.

So Franklin was in fact a great fan and promoter of the basic idea of vaccination DURING HIS LIFE; remember that initial inoculations against smallpox started nearly three hundred years ago.

Franklin was fairly well-versed in medicine for his time, which is to say he regarded a lot of it with a skeptical air. I remember reading one quote which I can't track down right now (so take that for what it's worth), where he was talking about how several of the people he saw for treatment seemed much better as they left his place, but fell back into feeling as bad as before a few days after. He considered the possibility that the treatment was actually doing nothing at all, and that the act of getting up and traveling through the fresh air to see him was responsible for most of the 'improvement' seen. So he actually seemed to have an inkling of some form of placebo effect.

I think Franklin would have come down pretty hard on the science side, though he likely would have wanted to look things over himself first; he seemed to have a (completely valid) distrust of things sold as cure-alls.

By Jenora Feuer (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

Seeing as how Ben Franklin was one of the greatest scientists America has ever produced, and an incredibly smart man overall, I don't have much doubt that he'd be on "our" side.

I'm not about to dig him up and ask him, though. When they tried that with Beethoven, they found him sitting up busily erasing ream after ream of sheet music. Asked for an explanation, he said "Can't you see? I'm decomposing!"

By palindrom (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

German. There is no language like it for vituperation.

My grandmother taught me to swear in German; she was from the old country and wanted me to be able to respond to Germans properly.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

SB277 eliminates parents' ability to participate in decisions about their children's' health care. It's a poorly written unintelligent law and deserves your scrutiny and disdain.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

ShamROCK's thesis implies that you should not have to make your kids wear seat belts in the car, and you should be exempt from speed limits, if you want. Any arguments about the safety of children and of the general public, is, to her, just "sciency-sounding dogma".

By DanielWainfleet (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

And, apparently, I can't even write two sentences without a typo so I better be careful criticizing the poorly written law . . .

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

Just the other day an elderly German neighbor assured me that there are no swear words in German. I hadn't the heart to disillusion her.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

palindrom @ #49:

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Jay:

Take a sexual departure.

By Chan Kobun, th… (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

Dr Jay: How does the law eliminate parents' ability to participate in their child's health decisions? Certainly, a parent who is given ALL the necessary information - true risks and benefits, not the lies from NVIC - can then make an informed decision with the help of the physician, based on the child's health status. After all, it's the children who are at risk here, correct? And you ARE an advocate for the child, not for the parent, as a pediatrician, RIGHT????

The law does not eliminate TRUE medical exemptions. However, "special snowflake" is not a medically billable diagnosis, nor is it a reason not to vaccinate.

To clarify: it's the children's health which is at risk, if they are left vulnerable to vaccine-preventable diseases just because the parents are poorly educated regarding the true risks and benefits.

JP,

I really like the British phrases "Bloody hell" and "The hell you say". No idea if they really use them but when you say them in upstate NY no one quite knows how to take them. It's fun to express your anger and confuse others at the same time.

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

In Orac's article entitled ACUPUNCTURE TROPES ON PARADE he writes,

"I sometimes catch flak for repeating this, but there was a time when I thought there might be something to acupuncture."

MjD says,

Your reminiscing about the article from the Canadian Medical Association Journal entitled,

ACUPUNCTURE THE BEST MEANS OF VACCINATION AGAINST SMALLPOX.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1584424/?page=1

By Michael J. Dochniak (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

@Jay Gordon

SB277 has nothing to do with "parents’ ability to participate in decisions about their children’s’ [sic] health care" - parents are still perfectly free to refuse vaccination, they just can't send unvaccinated children to school. You know what does adversely affect a parent's ability to make health care decisions for their children? Misinformation campaigns that prey on parental anxieties to line the pockets of people like you.

SB277 eliminates parents’ ability to participate in decisions about their children’s’ health care. It’s a poorly written unintelligent law and deserves your scrutiny and disdain.

Poor, befuddled Dr. Jay still repeating the mummy warrior cries from their failed SB277 protest. Please tell us Dr. Jay how SB277 eliminates any parents' ability to participate in decisions about their healthcare? The only thing deserving of scrutiny and disdain are poseur physicians like you who enable more-money-than-sense Santa Monica hausfraus with delusions of superior offspring. Oh and I see your arse is still smarting from that smack-down you got at open-mik during SB277 testimonies. Typos are the least of your worries BTW.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

There's a legal question I've wondered about with respect to Jay Gordon. As I understand it, a child who is permanently injured due to a vaccine-preventable disease cannot sue his parents for denying him the vaccine. But when he reaches majority, can he sue Gordon for malpractice? What if the child suffered injury because the parents relied on Gordon's idiotic advice to use homeopathic nostrums instead of real medicine?

Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP@51

It’s a poorly written unintelligent law and deserves your scrutiny and disdain.

Dr. Gordon! Good to see you again after you bravely ran away last time. I would argue that you are the one that deserves scrutiny and disdain.

@53

And, apparently, I can’t even write two sentences without a typo so I better be careful criticizing the poorly written law . . .

Fear not. I can't even post my comment to the right thread.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

"There’s a legal question I’ve wondered about with respect to Jay Gordon. As I understand it, a child who is permanently injured due to a vaccine-preventable disease cannot sue his parents for denying him the vaccine. But when he reaches majority, can he sue Gordon for malpractice? What if the child suffered injury because the parents relied on Gordon’s idiotic advice to use homeopathic nostrums instead of real medicine?

Great question, LW. Yes, I assume responsibility for advice I give parents about vaccines and other medical care. Complete responsibility. I don't ask parents to sign waivers. If I give advice, including delaying or deferring vaccines I consider myself responsible for the consequences of that advice.

The "flip side" of that is also interesting: If there are adverse reactions to vaccination, I have no liability. That seems wrong to me.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

Science Mom . . . OK, you win.

By the way, watch my testimony again. I think I was great.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP@64

If I give advice, including delaying or deferring vaccines I consider myself responsible for the consequences of that advice.

The “flip side” of that is also interesting: If there are adverse reactions to vaccination, I have no liability. That seems wrong to me.

Well, the major difference being that advising delaying or deferring vaccines for reasons outside of the CDC's recommendions is a deviation from the well defined standard of care. IANAL, but I would think that this would be much easier to argue as a breach of duty than administering vaccines on schedule (in the absence of real contraindications of course).

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

Oh, look. Dr. Jay, Pediatrician to the Stars(tm), is back.

Dr. Jay, are you ready to defend your claim that your anecdotes don't belong at the bottom of any reasonable hierarchy of evidence? You know, the way the entire Enlightenment would argue? http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/10/06/cries-the-antivaccinationi…

(link might not go straight to that comment; it’s #112 on that page)

#9
@Selena Wolf

Are you by any chance related to the Mark Antony/James De Wolf family of Bristol R.I.?
There is a Canada branch.

"The late Dr. J. Ratchford De Wolf, of Halifax in his contribution to the Salisbury Family Histories, says: " The American De Wolfs, whether of New England or Canada, are noted for their habits of enterprise and industry, their love of change and adventure, their freedom from ostentation, their domestic virtues and their numerous progeny; as also for their healthiness, and the frequent instances of longevity among them." Of the family of Mark Anthony De Wolf the common ancestor of the Bristol De Wolfs, the late Dr. John De Wolf, of Providence, R. I., also writes for the above volumes: "His wife is said to have been a woman of noble character. Most of the children, eight sons and five daughters, grew to be men and women and as a rule were distinguished for the elegance of their manners and great beauty of person.

"Among the members of the family who were thus," as Mrs. Salisbury writes, "carried away from their birthplace in search of adventure or to better their fortunes," were three cousins Nathan, Simeon and Jehiel De Wolf, who followed twelve months later the exodus of about two hundred emigrants who in 1760 went from Connecticut to repeople Acadia; to settle in Nova Scotia whence the French peasants had gone forth in exile."
http://guweb2.gonzaga.edu/~dewolf/perry/chapter3.htm

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

"Actually, I probably won’t be writing about it much any more, because it’s now a done deal. It’s the law of the land in California. Beginning in 2016, non-medical exemptions (i.e., religious exemptions and personal belief exemptions) to school vaccine mandates will go away. Only medical exemptions will be permitted, which is as it should be."

Does anyone who knows more about this kind of stuff than I do have any thoughts on how likely this is to happen?

"SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) – California’s secretary of state says the proponents of a ballot measure to repeal the state’s new mandatory vaccination law can begin collecting signatures for their effort.

Secretary of State Alex Padilla cleared the initiative for signature-gathering Tuesday.

Proponents will need to collect nearly 366,000 signatures for the initiative to appear on the 2016 ballot. The law also takes effect that year."

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2015/07/14/opponents-of-mandatory-vaccin…

"I don’t ask parents to sign waivers."

As I understand it, the parents couldn't waive the child's rights anyway. That's why I was considering the child's right to sue you, not the parents' right.

By the way, I know a pediatrician who didn't turn away unvaccinated children, though she did her level best to persuade them to vaccinate. Thanks to people like you, Jay Gordon, she didn't always succeed, so when there was a measles outbreak in her community, one of her patients caught it and suffered serious, permanent brain damage. Of course she wasn't at risk of suit from the child because she'd done her best to get him vaccinated.

But that's just perfectly fine with you, isn't it, Jay Gordon? A child's life destroyed because of your pretense of knowing that vaccines are dangerous and vaccine-preventable diseases are harmless because of your "clinical experience"?

"By the way, watch my testimony again. I think I was great."

We'll be the judge of that, Dr. Jay. Thanks.

In other anti-vax news:

Their fave journalist, Sharyl Atkisson, will have a television show of her own on Sinclair- whatever that is- in the autumn.
I assume in the US
but one never know, do one?

I thought she was angling for a right-leaning network. I have no idea if that is one. ( or do they just develop shows or suchlike?)
Could it be Canadian?

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

I, for one, am very pleased to see Dr Jay communing with us.
How fondly I recall the good old days of him arguing with lilady and then.offering her lunch or wine or something.

So cheers!

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

@ Ren:

Tell us more about your adventures there.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

It is probably a good sign that antivacinationists are having to reach so deeply inside themselves to find something, anything no matter how irrelevant to a wider public in order to buttress their self-belief and confidence. ShamROCK clearly has a great deal of self-affirming pride in her ancestry and is reaching for that in order to keep going through what are thin times.

When the argument is 'vaccinate your child so it doesn't die/cause others to die' and your response is 'The Old Pretender!' then you've probably already lost.

By Gemman Aster (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

Annie @68 -- Oh, man, a ballot measure fight.

After Prop 13, nigh these many decades ago, I'm convinced that ballot measures are a terrible idea.

By palindrom (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

Hi Denice!

lilady was something. It took me a long while to figure out that she was coming from a place and from a set of experiences that I didn't understand well enough. I miss her, believe it or not. I regret not trying harder to understand her and her point of view.

LW, I'm not sure the adult child could sue. If so, I continue to aver that negative consequences from my advice or my treatments are my responsibility.

Not a Troll: Yes, OT. Right?

Ren! Yes, let me know what you think. And email me pictures of your adventures. If you don't have my email address, please ask David for it.

I am giving more vaccines these days than ever before. Partly because of some of the collected wisdom here that's been imparted to me.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP.

Call me a troll. There wasn't a Dr. Bradsteet thread I could find, and I didn't check on what I was interrupting here. My sincerest apologies.

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

"Actually, I probably won’t be writing about it much any more, because it’s now a done deal. It’s the law of the land..."

YEAH, THAT'S WHAT THEY SAID ABOUT THE ORIGINAL CONSTITUTION!!!!!
So ORAC, you wanna go back to the "GOOD 'OLE DAYS?"
How well can you work with FRACTIONS???????

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

CALLING ALL PROVAXXERS:

Please call the CALIFORNIA ASSEMBLY and work to OVERTURN THE THIMEROSAL BAN!
Here are your talking points:

CALIFORNIA IS ONE OF TWO STATES BANNING THIMEROSAL
Why do you continue to keep LIFE-SAVING THIMEROSAL out of California vaccines?????????? ARE YOU JUST RACIST? DO YOU WANT TO CONTINUE TO DRAIN THE TAXES OF CALIFORNIANS UNNECESSARILY?
AN EXTRA $.50/ JAB TO TAKE OUT A HARMLESS SUBSTANCE THAT KEEPS VACCINES SAFE. AN INCREASED COST OF UP TO $18.4 MILLION!
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=CALIFORNIA+POPULAT…

IF IT’S GOOD ENOUGH FOR AFRICA,
IT’S GOOD ENOUGH FOR CALIFORNIA!

Please vote to OVERTURN THE CALIFORNIA BAN ON THIMEROSAL!
It is SAFE. It is EFFECTIVE, and it is CHEAP!
BRING BACK THE ECONOMICAL MULTI-DOSE VIALS!
Supported by Californian’s HOPING for some CHANGE to pay the BILLS.

http://www.semissourian.com/story/147068.html
“The outcome reflected the position of the World Health Organization that the small amount of thimerosal used in vaccines is safe. Even the American Academy of Pediatrics, which called for thimerosal to be removed from children’s vaccines over a decade ago, last year came out in favor of exempting the preservative from the mercury treaty.

The exemption also stemmed from a widely shared economic judgment that the cost to make and distribute thimerosal-free vaccines would be steep and couldn’t be justified by the uncertain benefits.

Richard Mwendandu, a delegate from Kenya, said African nations that expressed concerns about thimerosal agreed by the end that the preservative is still critical to vaccination programs aimed at reducing childhood deaths, and should be used until a good alternative is found. “There is no cost-effective and reliable alternative at this moment,” Mwendandu said.”
http://www.salon.com/2013/06/30/world_health_organization_approves_use_…

“Senator Elizabeth Warren: Vaccines are safe, effective & protect our children”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79UlXgoQwGk

CONTINUING THE THIMEROSAL BAN MAKES CALIFORNIA LOOK RACIST AND IT MAKES IT APPEAR THAT ANTI-VAXXERS ARE TELLING THE TRUTH: THIMEROSAL CAUSES VACCINE INJURY.

Now is the time to OVERTURN THE BAN. The MANDATED VACCINE LAW passed with flying colors. THE CITIZENS KNOW ALL VACCINES ARE SAFE, INCLUDING ONES WITH FULL THIMEROSAL DOSES. NOT OVERTURNING IT GIVES A FOOTHOLD TO THE ENEMY!

CAN I COUNT ON YOU TO CALL THE CALIFORNIA ASSEMBLY MEMBERS AND PUSH FOR THIS BILL?

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

Yes Benjamin Franklin was actively pro-vaccine.So was George Washington and Thomas Jefferson.

I think some of you may be missing the obvious about ShamROCK's post.Antivaccinationism has long since taken a right turn past logic and science,and has,for the true believers,become nothing short of a religious cult.ShamROCK here more or less admits it.Anybody that doubts this need look no further than online videos of any of Andrew Wakefield's speeches in the last few years at places like AutismOne.These speeches are not unlike old time tent revival services,with Wakefield as the charismatic preacher.These are the true believers,they don't care if his studies were based on fraud,have been retracted,or that Wakefield has lost his license to practice medicine.They believe.For them that is enough.

By Roger Kulp (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

Dr Jay @ 78

"I am giving more vaccines these days than ever before. Partly because of some of the collected wisdom here that’s been imparted to me."
Good for you.(y) Glad to hear it.

By Roger Kulp (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

#1 @Not a Troll

“…we can see that their high rates of vaccination did protect them in the Disney outbreak, keeping rates of infection quite low…”

And this is an argument against ensuring a vaccinated population, how?

This point came up in the local paper a couple of weeks ago, and I suspect that we will be seeing more of it. The idea is that Wakefield et al pushed down the vaccine rates but that didn't do any harm because nobody died - just look at the Disney outbreak! Measles is harmless, children die from the vaccine, so it's actually a good idea to roll back the vaccination rates until we hit the sweet spot where illness deaths plus vaccines deaths is minimized.

There was a small bit of push back on the grounds that 1) vaccines don't kill children and 2) that is a recipe for a massive epidemic, triggered without warning, that would overwhelm the hospital system.

However, I was concerned at how little concern there was by the commenters as a whole at the smooth presentation by the obviously practiced antivaxxer. Our public education mission is no where near done.

By Robert L Bell (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

Science Mom . . . OK, you win.

So I take it that you can't support your claim that: "SB277 eliminates parents’ ability to participate in decisions about their children’s’ health care. It’s a poorly written unintelligent law and deserves your scrutiny and disdain."

By the way, watch my testimony again. I think I was great.

As a matter of opinion, of course, you were trying to be grandiose and inspiring but failed miserably and came off as defeated and goofy. BTW, I'm not attempting to just denigrate you; I hold physicians in high regard (altho' don't hesitate to slam non-SBM ones as you may have noticed) which is why I'm hard on you. You have so much more responsibility to your patients than you provide. I can say that you at least have a more likable personality than Bob Sears and the recreational beach volleyball in your neck of the woods is some of the best I've played.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

I have looked into the historical analogies and have found a few more things that SB.277 is *exactly* like:
The Rwandan Genocide, the Whiskey Rebellion, the Baltimore Slave Raid, the Battle of Teutoburger Wald, the Death Star's destruction of Alderaan, the Blair Witch Project, The Day the Earth Stood Still, the Businessman's Plot of 1934...I could go on, but I think that's enough to hold them for a while.

By Old Rockin' Dave (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

Robert L Bell @82

Thanks for the explanation. I read her statement as an obvious concession to high vaccination rates preventing an outbreak. But if her argument is that not everyone needs to be vaccinated, how did her group "win the lottery" to be the ones to opt out? Because they're better than the rest of us (keeping in mind they believe vaccines are dangerous).

Regarding the smooth presentation - after working with Marketing Depts in a number of positions held, I think it would have raised suspicions had it been anything but. Everything is too polished these days. And for what isn't, you should see the effort that goes into making them appear "organic".

Side note: I ran across an interesting article a couple of days ago about what is not reaching this population
Vaccines Still Don’t Cause Autism. But Are These Studies Helping?
.

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

@ Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP - if one of the children in your practice is unvaccinated and later identified as patient 0 in another measles outbreak, and an infant too young to be vaccinated who is infected from that outbreak later develops SSPE, who bears responsibility for the care and resulting loss of that life? The doctor who counseled parents that the disease isn't that scary and delaying or even avoiding some vaccines was fine, the parents who made the decision?

Should we, as a culture, expect social responsibility, or is this new. "I've got mine; go jump in a lake" a much better life ethic for all? See, I am an uneducated person, and I know you're really smart and a doctor with super star patients and television interviews and all that, so I am sure that it means you know a lot more than me, and your discernment in complex ethical questions would be much more finely nuanced.

#86
WOO
CAN I COUNT ON YOU TO LOBBY THE CALIFORNIA ASSEMBLY TO OVERTURN THE THIMEROSAL BAN, and bring back the cheaper, safer multi-use vials?
So far, I have NOT HAD ONE PRO-VAXXER SUPPORT MY EFFORTS! UNBELIEVABLE!

IF IT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR AFRICA,
IT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR CALIFORNIA.
CALIFORNIA IS ONLY ONE OF TWO STATES THAT BANS THIMEROSAL!

ARE THE ANTI-VAXXERS RIGHT? DO YOU THINK IT IS DANGEROUS?

Inaction by provaxxers on this effort means only one thing....
THEY DO NOT BELIEVE THIMEROSAL IS SAFE.
I WILL CONTINUE MY CAMPAIGN, until the ban is overturned and ALL CALIFORNIANS will once again use the safe and CHEAP multi-dose vials with the ORIGINAL THIMEROSAL LEVELS, just like they use in AFRICA.

I HOPE YOU WILL JOIN ME IN THIS EFFORT. Otherwise, your "challenges" to the "doctors" IS QUITE MEANINGLESS.

PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

@Denice

Sinclair media is a conservative - leaning media group, which owns a lot of TV stations in the Midwest and South.

Hope that helps.

Dr. Chris #16:

Maybe we should just create a Mad Libs template for these AVers.

It's been done over and over and over again, already, at Whale.to and divers other websites. They just copypasta the verbiage into comments and even twitter.

"@ Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP – if one of the children in your practice is unvaccinated and later identified as patient 0 in another measles outbreak, and an infant too young to be vaccinated who is infected from that outbreak later develops SSPE, who bears responsibility for the care and resulting loss of that life?"

WOO, perhaps you should address your question to measles vaccine INVENTOR, Dr. KATZ:
Ultra-Orthodox communities refusing the 50-year-old vaccine were linked to a third of US measles cases last year
BY RENEE GHERT-ZAND December 11, 2013, 12:16 pm
http://www.timesofisrael.com/measles-vaccine-developer-warns-jewish-ant…
Conclusion: NO BIG DEAL!

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

somewhat off topic
Good news, people. After a bit of a cliff-hanger, SB792, which requires child-care workers to be immunized against measles, pertussis, and influenza* passed the last Assembly committee. Next stop: the Assembly floor, and then on to the Governor for signature into law.

If you live in California, please do call your Assemblymember to register your support of the bill.
______
*This one has a Personal Belief Exemption out. It is still better than no requirement at all.

#95
"The last surviving member of the team of researchers that developed the measles vaccine 50 years ago believes it is “ludicrous,” however, to get upset over the Center for Disease Control’s December 5 announcement that there were 175 cases of the disease in the United States in 2013, a tripling of the annual average.

Notably, 58 of those cases were among Hasidic Jews in the Brooklyn’s Boro Park and Williamsburg neighborhoods. It was the largest outbreak of measles in the US since 1996.

“It’s ALL SO RELATIVE,” said Katz, who was HONORED last week by the CDC. “True, there were 175 cases in the US so far this year, but there are 3-4 million cases a year worldwide. In Western Europe alone there are 25,000 cases per year.”"

Ultra-Orthodox communities refusing the 50-year-old vaccine were linked to a third of US measles cases last year
BY RENEE GHERT-ZAND December 11, 2013, 12:16 pm

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

#96

LIZ DITZ- There you are!
Can you also give us an update on the CAMPAIGN TO OVERTURN THE CALIFORNIA THIMEROSAL BAN?

We need to GET 'ER DONE! ALL THESE NEW ADULTS GETTING VACCINES without THE SAFETY OF THIMEROSAL!
The continued increase in vaccines will continue TO BUST OUR BUDGET.
THIS SHOULD BE YOUR FIRST PRIORITY.

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

Jay Gordon wrote,

By the way, watch my testimony again. I think I was great.

Through the Magik Mirror (tm) I've been able to read what the Warrior Mommies in Red* (WMiR) think about Jay's testimony.

Many of them blame him for the bill not being killed in the last hearing, the Assembly Health Committee. The WMiR were irate because he defended vaccines, and depicted vaccines as "safe" and "necessary". Gordon was "weak" and "pandering". In their view, if Gordon had condemned vaccines the Health Committee would have seen the wisdom of killing the bill.
-----------
*The dress code has changed. They now are sporting white. Don't ask me why; I do not know.

Mrs. Woo: I wrote a paper about that for the University of Michigan Law Review about six years ago. It may be dated. Let me know what you think.

http://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1077&contex…

Every time one walks out one's front door there is risk. I must repeat, for the third time, I take full responsibility for the advice I give and the medical care I administer. This includes the recommendation to almost all families to vaccinate later and slower than is recommended by virtually every expert. They know my bias and all of my patients can read well, discriminate between confirmation bias and reality and can get second and third opinions when they want them.

I can send you a copy of my paper if you'd like.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

#79
" I regret not trying harder to understand her and her point of view."
Exactly what was her point of view? Bitterness?
Sad .

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

Did any of you ever read this (very old) chapter with an excellent quote from world's experts about vaccination?

http://www.princeton.edu/~ota/disk3/1978/7805/780505.PDF

The relevant quote is below. The formatting is not great.

Case 3:
Chicken Pox Vaccine
A successful vaccine produces, without harm to the recipient, a degree of protection
that approaches the immunity that follows a disabling attack of chicken pox itself. A vac-
cine is a preparation of bacterial or viral material that has been inactivated or weakened.
This material can stimulate the body’s immune system and prepare it to attack the agents
of the corresponding disease should they invade the body.
By preventing disease, rather than treating them or their symptoms, vaccines have
averted suffering and saved lives. Immunization programs have reduced financial as well
as human costs. Vaccines such as those against smallpox, measles, and tetanus have
prevented a variety of infectious diseases.
Chicken pox is an infectious disease caused by the Varicella-Zoster (VZ) virus.
Chicken pox is a common, usually mild, childhood illness. The United States recorded
154,248 cases of chicken pox in 1975, an increase of almost 13,000 from the previous year
(388). In 1974, only 106 deaths were reported from chicken pox.
Early in 1977, Japanese investigators reported the development of a live, attenuated
(weakened) virus vaccine against VZ. Twenty-six children who had been exposed to
chicken pox were given the vaccine after exposure. None of them developed clinical
chicken pox. A control group of 19 exposed children was left unvaccinated, and all
developed typical chicken pox. Blood tests demonstrated development of immunity to
chicken pox by those given the vaccine. On the basis of preliminary evidence, the
Japanese vaccine can be considered to produce immunity to VZ virus and to prevent the
development of chicken pox in those inoculated (12,13).
A vaccine against chicken pox, which appears to be a definite possibility, might pre-
vent thousands of cases and more than 100 deaths per year. Most of those deaths, how-
ever, probably occur in individuals at high risk, such as those with leukemia. The danger
of chicken pox in high-risk individuals could be reduced by a well-organized program of
passive immunization with gamma globulin, which contains antibodies against chicken
pox produced by other infected individuals (48). *
The risks of the chicken pox vaccine are unknown. Some normal children could
react adversely. Because high-risk individuals would be likely to have variable reactions
to the vaccine, it could be expected to cause a certain level of morbidity and mortality in
this group (48).
The most worrisome risk, however, is the possible effect of the vaccine on the rates
of zoster, another disease caused by the VZ virus. Zoster (shingles) is usually a disease of
adulthood. It occurs in persons who have recovered from chicken pox many years after
their recovery. The percentage of individuals who develop latent infection**
is unknown, although the rate of zoster in high-risk populations, such as those on chemother-
apy for cancer, has been reported to be as high as 50 percent (6). Why latent virus causes
disease years later is not known, and the relationship between chicken pox and zoster is
not well understood (134).
The vaccine could postpone infection from childhood, when it is a mild illness, to
adulthood, when it may be quite severe. This could occur if immunity produced by im-
munization of infants and children waned in adulthood. Although reimmunization might
prevent this problem, persuading adults that they need a vaccine against chicken pox
might be difficult. In addition, the attenuated virus might itself become latent and cause
infection years later. Because the latent period for zoster can be 10 to 30 years, results of
vaccination would need to be studied for decades in order to establish the health benefit
(48,388).
Furthermore, viruses related to the VZ virus have been shown to cause cancer in
animals and have been related to some cancers in humans. This suggests some risk of
producing cancer with such a vaccine (48).
Weighing these possible benefits and risks, Brunell has stated that “the mortality and
morbidity produced by varicella (chicken pox) in normal children could hardly justify a
major effort to eradicate varicella” (48). The National Institute of Allergy and Infectious
Disease (NIAID) agrees regarding the use of live vaccine in normal children. Carefully
controlled trials in children with cancer or leukemia under conditions of isolation may
merit consideration. A killed or inactivated vaccine, such as a subunit vaccine free of
nucleic acid, is also a possibility for varicella as for other herpes viruses (388).
‘Passive immunization refers to injection into the patient’s body
of antibodies derived from another source, human or animal.
Active immunization occurs when the antibodies are produced by the patient due
to injection of a vaccine.
Passive immunization of gamma globulin, therefore is not a full substitute for vac-
cination.
* *The state of continuing viral infection without clinical illness is referred to as “latency.”
Assessing the Efficacy and Safety of Medical Technologies

NIAID has shown that a drug, adenine arabinoside, reduces the mortality of herpes
encephalitis, thus offering promise that a drug efficacious against VZ virus may be
developed. A natural antiviral substance, interferon, has been shown to limit the severity
of VZ infections manifested as herpes zoster.
The live chicken pox vaccine is a case where efficacy can be predicted, but long-term
risks in normal children are unpredictable without studies that would take decades. The
benefits, although positive, are relatively small, while potential risks are large. This con-
cern about potential risks has led NIAID to decide not to test the vaccine in normal
children. A live chicken pox vaccine for general use seems to be a technology that will
work, but that will not be developed in this country unless further research makes it
possible to minimize risk.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

Holy Crap, Liz!!! The Women in Red wanted me not to pander to . . . I forgot to whom this time!?!

Science Mommy, I surf right in front of those volleyball courts at Tower 24 on weekends. Watch for me.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

Anne at #68: here's the timeline and some predictions.

July 1st-July 15th: Raise money, organize & train Signature-Gatherers (oops, they were not able to organize any training in that time period)

July 15-20th: Print & distribute petitions statewide thru existing groups, and continue to train signature-gatherers (oops, they have only one training organized in one low-population area)

July 20th-Sept 27th: Collect 365,880 valid signatures

September 28: File signatures with AG office (presuming they collect the required number)

If and only if the referendum petition reaches the required number to be placed on the November 2016 ballot, SB277 will not affect incoming kindergarteners and 7th graders to be vaccinated against 9 diseases.

Run-up to vote:
September 28 2015 to November X 2016: Raise more money, and run campaign.
November X: Election Day.

The rule of thumb is a minimum of $2/validated signature, so the "defeat SB277 by referendum" camp will have to have a war chest of about $740,000 to have a hope of getting it past the first hurdle -- enough signatures.

Jay, we actually shared the same air space before noon on June 9th. I was perching in the California Legislature cafeteria before the hearing, when I saw you come in. I started to get up to introduce myself when I realized you were in the company of Ms. Estepp and others of the opposition, well, no, this would not go well. So I quietly ankled off.

@Not a Troll #85 Thanks for the link (Flashplayer is broken, I read the article) which actually makes me feel better, in a way, for I hold that the crackpots will never change their minds - no matter what evidence we put up - so we do better to speak to those who have yet to make the leap of faith. One aspect I like to emphasize is that we have a limited pool qualified to do research, and they have limited time and money, so every study showing once again that MMR does not cause autism is a study not done on heart disease or cancer or malaria or any other serious issue.

As to the issue of driving down the coverage rate until it starts to hurt again, I have a real grudge against free riders and the last people we want to reward are the kooks and the crackpots - exaggerating the dangers of vaccines and minimizing the risk of an epidemic are standard antivaxxer tropes, and they have to stop. The pragmatic difficulty is that the ideas are superficially plausible yet dangerously wrong - but neither of the proofs are easy to demonstrate, to the uneducated, especially in the face of established resistance.

By Robert L Bell (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

Hmm. There are more laws preventing parents from making health decisions for their children:
- penal laws preventing starving and hevy beatings,
- CSA preventing use of e. g. heroine as sedative or cocaine for cough

You think we can goad Thinking Moms into rebelling aganst those as well?

By The Smith of Lie (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

I really like the British phrases “Bloody hell” and “The hell you say”. No idea if they really use them but when you say them in upstate NY no one quite knows how to take them.

I have a rather hard time believing this, but my experience was mainly in Ithaca. Anyway, regarding the bolded one, I prefer Buckaroo Banzai's "The deuce you say!"

4th Doctor Found Dead, Gunshot Wound to Head

Someone tell Tom Baker.
This is going to screw up the whole Whoniverse continuity.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

@LW:

There’s a legal question I’ve wondered about with respect to Jay Gordon. As I understand it, a child who is permanently injured due to a vaccine-preventable disease cannot sue his parents for denying him the vaccine.

Well, I don't know that it's been tried, and I'm way too tired to look, but a "next friend" can generally sue on behalf of a child, in this case for negligence. If you want to look more, I'd start with general child-neglect suits.

But when he reaches majority, can he sue Gordon for malpractice?

That strikes me as dicey in the extreme. Just skipping to the concrete part of the question, I don't know offhand how (or if) the statute of limitations is tolled for minors in different states.

What if the child suffered injury because the parents relied on Gordon’s idiotic advice to use homeopathic nostrums instead of real medicine?

It's a second-hand theory of negligence. Again, maybe it's worked, but the usual idea is that X sues Y for the immediate breach, and then Y sues Z if they received bad advice. I mean, X might as well sue Y and Z for the hell of it, but I dunno in practice.

Great question, LW.

Meaningless and almost certainly false answer, though:

Yes, I assume responsibility for advice I give parents about vaccines and other medical care. Complete responsibility. I don’t ask parents to sign waivers. If I give advice, including delaying or deferring vaccines I consider myself responsible for the consequences of that advice.

Are you saying that you have no malpractice insurance? The decision to litigate is not necessarily yours if you do.

Do you require new patients to agree to submit to binding arbitration?

Someone tell Tom Baker.
This is going to screw up the whole Whoniverse continuity.

Peter Davison is apparently toast, as well.

Peter Davison is apparently toast, as well.

I can't find an accessible copy of James Blish's "Statisticians' Day", but the gimmick is that actuary science becomes sufficiently precise to determine the exact day when a given profession is over-stocked with practitioners and ready for a culling.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

"I have a real grudge against free riders"
#106
Yeah. CALIFORNIA IS A THIMEROSAL-FREE RIDER.
WILL YOU JOIN MY CAMPAIGN TO OVERTURN THE CALIFORNIA THIMEROSAL BAN? We are throwing MILLIONS of taxpayer dollars away to remove life-saving thimerosal from the vaccines! THIS IS COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY AND ENDANGERS THE LIVES OF CITIZENS! We need to get a rider on SB792. Can we count on your HELP?

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

#112
"a child who is permanently injured due to a vaccine cannot sue his parents for giving him the vaccine."
YES, THAT'S WHAT VACCINE COURT IS FOR. BTW, what happens to all the UNUSED VACCINE TAXES????????

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

"I have a rather hard time believing this, but my experience was mainly in Ithaca."

There would be your answer. Cornell Uni / Ivy League. Enough said.

If not too personal, did you attend Cornell? In what years?

"...I prefer Buckaroo Banzai’s “The deuce you say!”

Never saw the movie except for bits of it. I think you just inspired me to watch it.

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

I wrote a paper about that for the University of Michigan Law Review about six years ago.

First Impressions is not Mich. L. Rev.

It may be dated. Let me know what you think.

The payload: "There is no medical basis for holding them liable." This doesn't mean anything.

Dr. Jay conveniently omitted the full table of contents, which is here, on the off chance that anybody wants to examine the other contestants.

Sigh. Another italic end tag fail. I guess it goes with the territory after you've been up for 20 hrs. No, I don't know how you doctor/scientist types stay up like this and function. But you have my undying admiration for it.

"Peter Davison is apparently toast, as well."

This is just hinkey, that's all. And to make it even more strange, I saw the story first on Pinterest. I rarely visit that site and when I do, I'm certainly not expecting to find a news story.

I hope the search goes well for the missing doctors.

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 14 Jul 2015 #permalink

The Germans have a saying that's almost impossible to render properly into English: Man sagt schneller „du Arschloch“ als „Sie Arschloch“. A very rough translation might be: "It's a lot easier to say, 'Hey, you, asshole' than 'Mr. Asshole, sir.'" The aphorism is an admonition to err on the side of respect and formality in one's everyday dealings, a sentiment that felt jarring at first but I came to appreciate during my time in Germany. Ever since studying abroad, I've become a lot less comfortable with the almost frenetic egalitarian informality we see in modern American society.

That being said, I don't find German to be a good language for profanity at all. The language has a long, proud history of being effortlessly, almost unconsciously scatological, with references to bodily excretions or sexual functions being built right into everyday conversational words. This gives rise to such beautiful formulations as "scheißkalt" (really fricken cold), "scheißkerl" (bastard; literally, "shit boy"), and "Klugscheißer" (smartass; literally, "clever shitter"). Martin Luther laced his theological treatises liberally with obscenities, while Mozart wrote a canon entitled "Leck mich im Arsch." And these are some of the more polite examples.

But that's just the problem. Profanity is so ubiquitous, so ingrained in the vernacular, that it's virtually devoid of effect. No one bats an eyelash when two-year-old Tom or 80-year-old Berta let loose with an explosive "Scheiße!“ or "so ein Mist!“ ("such bullshit!"). Swear words have been neutered through overuse.

Ironically, one of the expletives that still seems to retain its vituperative effect in German sounds pretty tame in English: "verpiss dich!" (piss off!).

There's a reason why the younger generations in particular swear in English when they're good and pissed off. English really is a better language for cussing.

By Rourke Decker (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

@Llz Ditz

Thanks. It does seem like getting 365,000 signatures is going to be a big hurdle for them...

They seem pretty convinced they can do it, though.

Well, Polish for swearing has one nice feature - there are several rather imaginative and vivid metaphors to say that someone has gone crazy - and they all include vulgar terms for male or female reproductive organs. For example one that could be translated "Have you switched your head with your dick?"

@capnkrunch

Do you think Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (important letters, dontcha know) will ever get around to answering the question about why he deviates from standard of care and the recommendations regarding vaccine administration?

Just a reminder, Jay, titers are accepted evidence of immunity, but checking titers is not the recommended standard of care.

Dr. Jay @ 95

Sounds like you haven't given up "too many too soon",in spite of studies and immunological common sense.I guess I should be disappointed in you,it seems you haven't learned that much after all."Too many too soon" really does refuse to stay dead,especially in California,as the video posted today at AoA proves.Too bad Dr. Jay couldn't use whatever influence he has to put an end to the lie of TMTS.

By Roger Kulp (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

Another article about it:

"Led by former assemblyman and Republican gubernatorial candidate Tim Donnelly of Twin Peaks, the opponents must collect the signatures of 365,880 registered voters on petitions by Sept. 28 for the referendum to qualify for the ballot.

Donnelly said he is confident the referendum will qualify, noting that within 72 hours of putting up a Facebook page and website, it already had 10,000 “likes” and some 5,000 people had volunteered to circulate petitions and contributed $10,000.

“I think the chances are as good as anything I’ve ever seen in terms of a referendum and we can do it with volunteers because there are so many motivated people who are already organized around the state,” Donnelly said. On Tuesday, a group of thousands of parents that organized against SB 277 as Our Kids, Our Choice, endorsed the referendum.

Allan Hoffenblum, a Republican consultant and chief author of the California Target Book, predicted the opponents would qualify the measure for the ballot.

“It’s a minority of people but it’s a sizeable minority of people,” Hoffenblum said. “I would be surprised if it didn’t quality. There is a lot of intensity.”

Hoffenblum predicted a majority of voters would uphold the law if it makes the ballot.

A national HealthDay/Harris Poll in March found that 82 percent of respondents say childhood vaccinations should be mandatory for children and 87 percent believe vaccines are safe.

“I think the majority of California voters would want to make sure any kids in the room with their kids have been vaccinated,” Hoffenblum said. Sen. Richard Pan (D-Sacramento), a co-author of the bill, agreed."

http://www.latimes.com/local/political/la-me-pc-referendum-drive-begins…

So that's a little promising at least.

I'm surpised this aspect of Sham's post has not yet received comment:

California already has high rates of vaccination, including measles vaccine... tiny percentage of shoolchildren who have not been vaccinated already... heavily influenced by pharmaceutical company donations SB 277 emerged and .. parents ...are being denied their basic rights as citizens... based on their ...beliefs. Religious segregation if you will.

Note the rhetorical shift away from the standard Big Pharma CT here. If only a tiny % of kids are un-vaxed, Merck et al have no real financial incentive to spend big $ on a campaign for SB277, as the increase is vax sales would be negligible. So, rather than casting corrupt government as an accomplice in corporate profiteering, Sham is casting Big Pharma as an accomplice in an insidious Big Government plot to stifle individual rights and religious freedom. I guess Merck's executives are only pretending to be mercenary to cover the fact they're actually part of the an International Stalinist conspiracy, sleeper-cell totalitarians so bent on recreating a new Gulag out of a mere will for ultimate control for it's own sake, they'll throw bundles of money they'll never get back into the effort.

But then Stalinism is just a front for the Illuminati... Look for the triangles, sheeple, they're everywhere! Connect the dots!!

This includes the recommendation to almost all families to vaccinate later and slower than is recommended by virtually every expert.

Dr. jay, your evidence that vaccinating later and slower than the recommended childhood vacination schedule does anythingat all other than leave children vulnerable to serious infectious diseases for an unnecessarily extended period of time would be what, exactly?

I mean, you do have some--right?

If we're going to nominate good languages to swear in, Yiddish needs to be in the mix.

@sadmar "If only a tiny % of kids are un-vaxed, Merck et al have no real financial incentive to spend big $ on a campaign for SB277, as the increase is vax sales would be negligible."

Great point!

@ Liz:

So they're wearing white now?

I suppose that that is symbolic of their *innocence* of the malfeasance about to engulf California in the form of *forced vaccination*..

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

What sadmar said makes sense

HOWEVER we're not talking about reality here.

That TINY minority represents a dedicated rebel fringe which MUST be stamped out in order for PHarmaCON to continue its dictatorial monopoly UNOPPOSED.

I sound like Draconis.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

If only a tiny % of kids are un-vaxed, Merck et al have no real financial incentive to spend big $ on a campaign for SB277, as the increase is vax sales would be negligible.

Unless and *if* it were to become evident and noticed that unvaxed kids are generally more healthy, sick less... I'd say there is plenty of incentive there, sadmar #118.

... Big Pharma as an accomplice in an insidious Big Government plot to stifle individual rights and religious freedom

^^ You see? the 'incentive' does not have to be 'financial'.

Note the rhetorical shift away from the standard Big Pharma CT here. If only a tiny % of kids are un-vaxed, Merck et al have no real financial incentive to spend big $ on a campaign for SB277, as the increase is vax sales would be negligible. So, rather than casting corrupt government as an accomplice in corporate profiteering, Sham is casting Big Pharma as an accomplice in an insidious Big Government plot to stifle individual rights and religious freedom.

Antivaxers, I find, use whatever argument is convenient at the time. To them, the concept that big pharma pushed SB 277 through to maximize profits is not incompatible with the observation that, given the high statewide vaccination rates in California, there really wouldn't be much extra profit to make by eliminating nonmedical exemptions to school vaccine mandates.

Jay, we actually shared the same air space before noon on June 9th. I was perching in the California Legislature cafeteria before the hearing, when I saw you come in. I started to get up to introduce myself when I realized you were in the company of Ms. Estepp and others of the opposition, well, no, this would not go well. So I quietly ankled off.

I probably would have reacted the same way. Although I wouldn't mind meeting Dr. Jay in person, I have no desire to meet many of the antivaccine movement opposing SB 277. Dr. Jay should also consider the fact that one is known by the company he keeps. If he hangs out with antivaccine activists, is it any wonder that he is perceived as antivaccine?

Liz, David, please let me know if you're ever in my neighborhood (I don't know where the two of you are) so we can have dinner.

As questions are presented, I do my best to answer. But, why has no one addressed my posts about the Varivax or NICU vaccines or the clear research about many vaccines not diminishing carriage of illness and contagion to vaccinated and unvaccinated children and babies??

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

As questions are presented, I do my best to answer.

Please, then, do your best to answer my question @128.

Dr. Gordon: "But, why has no one addressed my posts about the Varivax or NICU vaccines or the clear research about many vaccines not diminishing carriage of illness and contagion to vaccinated and unvaccinated children and babies??"

Because they are off topic and you are cherry picking. Now answer JGC's questions, which are relevant.

JGC, I have answered this one 100 times: I have no evidence that vaccinating later and slower is safer or better.

Just as there is absolutely zero evidence to prove that the routine six-at-a-time schedule is the safest way to give vaccines. The increased duration of vulnerability is miniscule and my opinion ("based on blah, blah, blah decades of experience") is that infants respond better to vaccines given the way I prefer to give them. I think that more parents choose to begin and continue vaccination when they're not faced with the mandatory six at six weeks of age.

Chris, my posts are very much on topic. They are difficult to answer and I am not disappointed that no can address them well.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

@Dr. Jay - as a physician who claims to be "pro-vaccine" have can you associate yourself with individuals who have shown, over and over again, to be blatantly anti-vaccine, up to and including ones that believe that they are part of a government conspiracy to kill children?

Jay Gordon wrote, " I have no evidence that vaccinating later and slower is safer or better. "

OTOH, you do have evidence that increases the risk for some adverse outcomes--such as, say, contracting vaccine-preventable diseases. In particular, I wonder if you tell exceptionally vaccine-risk averse parents that "delayed [MMR] vaccination in the second year of life is associated with more postvaccination seizures than on-time vaccination."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24843064

Lawrence, when I travel, I pay for my own airline tickets, hotels, meals and do not accept money for speaking. Just as there are extremists in the "anti-antivax" ranks, there are people who oppose the way we vaccinate in a completely different way than I do. I neither join their clubs nor speak in support of their ideas. As Liz has observed in #99, they don't like me.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

@Dr. Jay - thank you for the response. What have you done to combat that kind of disinformation being spread by the anti-vax folks that you associate yourself with?

Have you ever had a conversation with Dr. Bob to address the misinformation that he spreads?

And I never asked if you accepted money from them, I wanted to know how you can associate with individuals who truly believe that vaccines are a conspiracy to kill children?

I have no evidence that vaccinating later and slower is safer or better.

But you do realize that not vaccinating 'earlier and faster' children leves unprotected against contracting serious infectious diseases like measles, mumps, rubella, varicella, pertussis, etc., right?

In the absence of such proof, why do you recommend children be vaccinated according to an alternative 'later and slower' schedule, when I'm sure you DO realize it leaves children unprotected against serious infectious diseases (measles, mumps, rubella, varicella, pertussis, etc.) for an extended period of time?

The increased duration of vulnerability is miniscule and my opinion (“based on blah, blah, blah decades of experience”) is that infants respond better to vaccines given the way I prefer to give them.

What evidence is that opinion derived from?

Oh wait, you just told us: none whatsoever.

sigh "leaves children", not "children leves"

While I respect Dr. Jay far more than Dr. Bob - I also realize that he's protecting his income stream....if he followed the schedule, his patients would have no reason to come to him over any other conventional pediatrician.

I'm sure SB277 will be a boon for his business - and that appears to be his number one concern.

As questions are presented, I do my best to answer. But, why has no one addressed my posts about the Varivax or NICU vaccines or the clear research about many vaccines not diminishing carriage of illness and contagion to vaccinated and unvaccinated children and babies??

What about it? You just posted some copypasta with no context. There aren't many vaccines which allow carriage, just two and polio isn't a problem in the Western Hemisphere, yet. BTW, only my children call me mommy.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

"In the absence of such proof, why do you recommend children be vaccinated according to an alternative ‘later and slower’ schedule..."

Is there any reason to believe that Jay Gordon ever catches up his patients to full vaccination? He proudly states that he denies protection to babies for no better reason than his belief that infants do better with fewer vaccines, but what about five-year-olds just starting kindergarten? What excuse does he claim to have for denying them protection?

@Jay Gordon

And how about the question posed in that other thread which I reiterated here in comment #126? Here it is again:

Why [do you deviate] from standard of care and the recommendations regarding vaccine administration?

Just a reminder, Jay, titers are accepted evidence of immunity, but checking titers is not the recommended standard of care.

@Jay Gordon

I'm also interested in your answer to brian's question about increased risk of seizures with delayed MMR compared to on-time immunization.

Is there any reason to believe that Jay Gordon ever catches up his patients to full vaccination?

I suspect that's what is occupying his time now, in the aftermath of the Disney measles outbreak and following the passage of SB277. You'll recall his statement "I am giving more vaccines these days than ever before".

Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP@139

Just as there is absolutely zero evidence to prove that the routine six-at-a-time schedule is the safest way to give vaccines.

There's no practical way to determine that any particular schedule is safest, there's simply far, far too many potential variations. However we do have significant amounts of data demonstrating that the current schedule is very safe, which is something you can't say about your delayed schedule. A while back ken, of all people, provided a nice link that talked about the safety of the childhood immunization schedule (if you have some spare time, the whole thing is an interesting read). Regarding studying modified schedules they said:

Furthermore, the committee found that a trial of a modified version of the ACIP schedule—one that would disperse the timing of vaccinations so that children are visiting health care professionals more often but receiving fewer shots at each visit—would be ethical; however, it would add substantial costs to both parents and providers and, moreover, may be unacceptable to insurers if its effectiveness—measured as a decreased rate of adverse safety outcomes—was negligible. This modified schedule would provide immunizations within the time intervals approved by ACIP and would address the concern about immunization with too many vaccines at one office visit, but the committee did not view this option to be feasible for study.

Todd W.@155

Do you think Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (important letters, dontcha know) will ever get around to answering the question about why he deviates from standard of care and the recommendations regarding vaccine administration?

Hopes are not high, but at least he is giving more vaccinations.

Just a reminder, Jay, titers are accepted evidence of immunity, but checking titers is not the recommended standard of care.

Not only that, checking titers is explicitly not recommended and appropriate immunization supersedes the results of titers. But Dr. Gordon knows this already.

Serologic screening for measles, rubella, or mumps immunity before vaccination is not necessary and not recommended if a person has other acceptable evidence of immunity to these diseases (Table 3). Similarly, postvaccination serologic testing to verify an immune response is not recommended.

Documented age-appropriate vaccination supersedes the results of subsequent serologic testing.

ACIP MMR Recommendations

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

Huh, that should be Todd W.@124. Who knows where 155 came from.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

@frankenmom
"You just posted some copypasta with no context."
IGNORANCE ON DISPLAY!
It was in context. It just challenged your FIXED BELIEFS.
#148
"There aren’t many vaccines which allow carriage, just two and polio isn’t a problem.."
THE GODDESS OF SCIENCE PONTIFICATES FROM ON HIGH!
How about some statistics and references, eh?

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

Lawrence, when I travel, I pay for my own airline tickets, hotels, meals and do not accept money for speaking. Just as there are extremists in the “anti-antivax” ranks, there are people who oppose the way we vaccinate in a completely different way than I do. I neither join their clubs nor speak in support of their ideas. As Liz has observed in #99, they don’t like me.

Now, Dr. Jay. You know that's false equivalence that conveniently lets you paint yourself as being a "reasonable" middle position, a fallacy known as the fallacy of the golden mean. Unfortunately, although appealing to a middle ground is reasonable in political debates, in medicine quite frequently the correct answer to a controversy is not somewhere in the middle. So it is with vaccines, and especially the antivaccine fringe.

Dr Jay @102: How old is that chapter? The latest date I could find was 1978, which makes me think it was published in the early 1980s (at best).

It's a very long section, so it is unclear what specific point the original authors made that you wanted us to discuss.

I will say that all of that stuff about gamma globulin is what made me think it must be very old, because I would think that there were several years when the idea of giving pooled, untested blood products to children with cancer would have been totally unacceptable (the early years of the AIDS crisis).

So you bring a statement that is dated beyond usability to our discussion. What was your point?

By JustaTech (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

capnkrunch: Thanks. Where can I find that link?

Lawrence: I would have a full and fulfilling practice with far less drama in my life and far more income if I adhered to the usual vaccine schedule. SB277 in fact could greatly increase the size of my practice but I do not have room for that many new patients.

Sorry, Science Mom, that was an unintentional name change! Pertussis is the one I worry most about.

Orac! "fallacy of the golden mean"--Do you make this stuff up as you go along??

Justa: I don't know how old that chapter is. I like it though.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

@JGC
"But you do realize that not vaccinating ‘earlier and faster’ children leves unprotected against contracting serious infectious diseases like measles, mumps, rubella, varicella, pertussis, etc., right?"

THIS IS NOT A COHERENT SENTENCE. PLEASE TRY AGAIN.
THE DOC COULDN'T VACCINATE THE KIDS 'CAUSE THEY WERE earlier and FASTER! LOL!
Try reading this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Eats-Shoots-Leaves-Commas-Difference/dp/0399244913

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

In other anti-vax news...

Jake ( @ Autism Investigated) doesn't like the idea of putting the new law up to a popular vote because it'll certainly LOSE!

And the vote may interfere with legal actions.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP wrote:

And, apparently, I can’t even write two sentences without a typo

Oh you silly, did you misspell QAAK again?

Oooops!
by LOSE I mean of course that his side will lose.
OBVIOUSLY.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

@Dr. Jay - so, would you commit to publishing a response to the misinformation spread by anti-vaccine activists?

"If only a tiny % of kids are un-vaxed, Merck et al have no real financial incentive to spend big $ on a campaign for SB277, as the increase is vax sales would be negligible."

AU CONTRAIRE!
The UNPOPULAR and dangerous HPV vaccine is wildly EXPENSIVE, and "the HPV vaccine has had a far more sluggish entree into medical practice than other vaccines at a similar point in their history, according to a report in Tuesday's JAMA."
http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/07/14/422934914/early-pus…

THE CALIFORNIA COMPULSORY VACCINATION LAW is just what the doctor ordered for SLUGGISH HPV SALES.
In fact, there is NO LIMIT to how many NEW VACCINES can be added to the FORCED VACCINE SCHEDULE.

On the other hand, if such a "tiny %" of kids are unvaxxed, California was well above the mythical HERD IMMUNITY RATE of 55%. It begs the question, WHY DID WE NEED SB277 anyway?

Now Dr. PROFFIT'S dream of 10,000 vaccines AT ONCE is about to come true! I'm sure LIZ DITZ is fighting to be FIRST in line to get her FAIR SHARE!

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

@Dr. Jay

I don't know you, but let me give you a piece of blogging advice:
Don't put yourself at a disadvantage in public. On this blog you post as yourself, an identifiable professional with a medical practice. Everyone else on here blogs incognito and is at much greater liberty to express their opinions (lies, insults) with less risk to their personal reputation. If someone blogged here as "Mr. So and So, President of Merck Pharmaceuticals", you might be on equal ground. I appreciate your attempt to defend your position, BUT YOU OWE THIS CROWD OF "PAID" SHILLS, NOTHING. It would be to your advantage to blog on your own CONTROLLED website, and ignore these attempts to "WAKEFIELD" you. Personally, I would leave California and let them have all the RADIATION, DROUGHT, and AUTISM they want. Throw in MULTIDOSE THIMEROSAL VIALS for good measure. Citizens in other states would LOVE TO HAVE YOUR SERVICES.

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

Yes!

All I need from you is a commitment to a response to the misinformation spread by anti-anti-vaccine activists.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

And please point out exactly what that would entail and what points you believe are false Dr. Jay......

So some people say they want 'freedom from religion' versus 'freedom of religion'. I want 'freedom from know-it-all-scientists'. You see, science has turned into a religion. Religion says you cannot question your priests. Likewise, parents cannot question their scientists, even if those scientists go insane. Yes, now injecting mercury, aluminum, squalene, human aborted fetal tissue, MSG, gluten, peanut oil, insects, raw eggs, cancer viruses among other things is GOOD for you and you're 'anti-science' if you question your priests -- I mean authoritarian scientists and technocrats. You cannot tell a priest they're wrong without being lynched in a crusade. Likewise, you cannot tell everyone the scientist-emperor has no clothes on or you lose your right to an education or to getting a job. I hope all you know-it-alls go right ahead and give yourself Alzheimer's with the amount of aluminum you confidently inject yourself with. I would rather homeschool my kids personally than give them brain damage and infinite health problems to avoid the loads of garbage in each injection.

Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP, on July 15, 2015 #157 sez:

Orac! “fallacy of the golden mean”–Do you make this stuff up as you go along??

Even the Pfffft of all Knowledge knows about it. Why doesn't purportedly educated person such as yourself?

By Bill Price (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

#164
I like it.
The middle ground between the Big Lie of Satan and the Truth is a lie.
YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

#167
@Lawrence

Why do you ask?
Toto CONTINUALLY POINTS THEM OUT, with nary a PEEP from the PROVAXXERS. PART 1 :

"Statement on Risk vs Benefit of Vaccinations by David Satcher, M.D., PH.D.
Assistant Secretary for Health and Surgeon General
U.S. Public Health Service
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services

Before the House Committee on Government Reform
August 3, 1999

...Vaccine approval also requires the provision of adequate product labeling to allow health care providers to understand the vaccine’s proper use, including its potential benefits and risks, in order to communicate with patients and parents and to safely deliver the vaccine to the public. Vaccines are also subject to lot release testing and protocol review to further ensure their quality.

Although extensive studies are required for licensure, post-marketing research and surveillance are necessary to identify safety issues which may only arise or be detected following vaccination of a much larger population. Rare events may not come to light before licensure, or, if noted, the evidence may not be adequate to prove that such events were due to a vaccine. The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) is a valuable post-marketing tool for just such safety surveillance. I will describe VAERS later in the testimony. In addition, post-marketing studies of a specific vaccine are required by FDA in order to obtain additional safety or other data. Also, after licensure, monitoring of the product and of production activities, including periodic facility inspections, must continue as long as the manufacturer holds a license for the product.

No system is perfect and no medicine or vaccine can ever be guaranteed to be 100 percent free of possible side effects or adverse events, particularly when administered to millions of people. For these reasons, the Department, its constituent agencies (FDA, CDC, NIH, HRSA), the scientific community, and industry strive for continuous improvements in vaccine safety. Speaking for the Department and its agencies, we welcome all constructive input and criticism in this regard….”
http://www.hhs.gov/asl/testify/t990803a.html

Government Wipes Recent Vaccine Injury Data from Website

Recent Rise in Vaccine Victims’ Court Decisions and Concessions Not Reflected in Revised Government Chart

"In March, the federal government removed the latest vaccine injury court statistics—more than a year’s worth of data—from one of its publicly reported charts. It was an abrupt departure from the normal practice of updating the figures monthly.

Wiping the latest data means the “adjudication” chart on a government website no longer reflects the recent, sharp rise in court victories for plaintiffs who claimed their children were seriously injured or killed by one or more vaccines.

Since January of 2014, twice as many victims have won court decisions than the previous eight years combined. In these court decisions, a judge ruled the evidence showed vaccines “more likely than not” caused the plaintiff’s injuries.

Also on the rise is the number of vaccine injury cases the government has “conceded”: up 55% in a little over one year.

As a result of the recent website changes, neither of these trends is reflected on the current “adjudication” chart."

https://sharylattkisson.com/government-wipes-recent-vaccine-injury-data…

“FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE-AUGUST 27,2014

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM W. THOMPSON, Ph.D., REGARDING THE 2004 ARTICLE EXAMINING THE POSSIBILITY OF A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN MMR VACCINE AND AUTISM

My name is William Thompson. I am a Senior Scientist with the Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention, where I have worked since 1998.

I regret that my coauthors and I omitted statistically significant information in our 2004 article published in the journal Pediatrics. The omitted data suggested that African American males who received the MMR vaccine before age 36 months were at increased risk for autism. Decisions were made regarding which findings to report after the data were collected, and I believe that the final study protocol was not followed…..

My concern has been the decision to omit relevant findings in a particular study for a particular sub group for a particular vaccine. There have always been recognized risks for vaccination and I believe it is the responsibility of the CDC to properly convey the risks associated with receipt of those vaccines.”
http://www.morganverkamp.com/august-27-2014-press-release-statement-of-…

REPRESENTATIVE POSEY OF FLORIDA (House Science, Space, and Technology Committee) is in possession of an estimated 100,000 non-redacted pages of CDC vaccine safety documents sent to him electronically, by WHISTLEBLOWER William Thompson on September 8, 2014. NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE WITH THEM. Dr. Thompson still works for the CDC.
OBVIOUSLY, vaccines are not safe and effective.

#CDCWhistleblower Update: US Congressman Posey’s Office In Possession of Up To 100,000 CDC Whistleblower Documents
Posted on September 8, 2014 by ChildHealthSafety
By: Ben Swann Sep 8, 2014
CDCwhistleblower
Congressman Bill Posey’s office has confirmed exclusively toBenswann.com that a “very large number” of documents have been turned over by CDC scientist, Dr. William Thompson, who has admitted that the CDC suppressed information about the links between the MMR vaccine and autism in some cases.
According to Congressman Posey’s spokesman, George Cecala, “I can confirm that we have received a very large number of documents and we are going through those documents now. There are a lot of them, so it will take some time.” Cecala could not say exactly how many documents are in possession of the Congressman’s staff though sources tell me that as many as 100,000 documents have been handed over.
Read rest of article here:
Update: Congressman’s Office In Possession of 100,000 CDC Whistleblower Documents? By: Ben Swann Sep 8, 2014

MISSISSIPPI HAS MANDATORY VACCINE LAW. Here are the results. The statistics support Whistleblower Dr. Thompson’s claims:

MISSISSIPPI 99.7 % vaccination coverage
http://www.msdh.state.ms.us/msdhsite/_static/23,15969,341.html

MISSISSIPPI 38% African-American population
https://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/facts_for_features_sp…

MISSISSIPPI 1 in 88- AUTISM rate. A 563% %t RISE in the number of public school children with autism in the past 11 years.

http://www.dmh.ms.gov/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/2013-MAAC-Report-Final…

Note: Autism rates have increased every year since the roll out of the “new” vaccine schedule in 1986, the year Big Pharma was removed from all vaccine product liability.

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

#167
@ Lawrence
PART 2 :

Dr. Hooker’s letter: Alleged scientific misconduct, CDC: VACCINES SAFETY STUDY! (CDC Whistleblower co-author, Dr. William Thompson)
http://media.wix.com/ugd/b3aa2b_da6435ff9a2144d6aa3358fec58550af.pdf

U.S. Media Blackout: Italian Courts Rule Vaccines Cause Autism – See more at: http://healthimpactnews.com/2015/u-s-media-blackout-italian-courts-rule…

Oldies but Goodies:
PLEASE READ ENTIRE ARTICLE
http://www.whale.to/a/blaylock.html

Scientific Review of Vaccine Safety Datalink Information June 7-8, 2000 Simpsonwood Retreat Center Norcross, Georgia
http://thinktwice.com/simpwood.pdf

1999 CDC Thimerosal safety report by Dr. Verstraeten (prompted Simpsonwood meeting above)
http://www.ashotoftruth.org/sites/default/files/exhibit_22_-_verstraete…

After 10 years, this CDC FOIA requested document was released in Feb. 2014 by court order: The above link is now dead. This is what I transcribed while it was still working:
“FILE 10 25 of 334
“Verstraeten, Thomas M, MD, NIP, Division of Epidemiology and Surveillance, Vaccine Safety and Development Branch, Mailstop E-61, 770-639-8327.
EIS Class Year of Entry: 1999…”

“Thomas M. Verstraeten, R. Davies, D. Gu, F. DeStefano” (note: same Dr. DeStefano who co-authored Thompson’s claimed to be fraudulent 2004 paper)

“Increased risk of developmental neurologic impairment after high exposure to thimerosal-containing vaccine in first month of life…”

“Results: ….The relative risk of developing a neurologic development disorder was 1.8 (95% confidence intervals…) when comparing the highest exposure group at 1 month of age (cumulative dose greater than 25 micrograms) to the unexposed group. Within this group we also found an elevated risk for the following disorders: autism (RR 7.6…), non-organic sleep disorders (RR 5.0 …), and speech disorders (RR 2.1…).”

MEASLES VACCINE FAILURES:

"Epidemiologic Basis for Eradication of Measles in 1967” (CDC)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1919891/pdf/pubhealthrepori…

Measles Control in the United States: Problems of the Past and Challenges for the Future

DAVID L. WOOD* AND PHILIP A. BRUNELL

Ahmanson Department of Pediatrics, Cedars-Sinai Medical Center, Los Angeles, California 90048

CLINICAL MICROBIOLOGY REVIEWS, Apr. 1995, p. 260–267 0893-8512/95/$04.000

Copyright 1995, American Society for Microbiology

http://cmr.asm.org/content/8/2/260.full.pdf

Ultra-Orthodox communities refusing the 50-year-old vaccine were linked to a third of US measles cases last year
BY RENEE GHERT-ZAND December 11, 2013, 12:16 pm

"The last surviving member of the team of researchers that developed the measles vaccine 50 years ago believes it is “ludicrous,” however, to get upset over the Center for Disease Control’s December 5 announcement that there were 175 cases of the disease in the United States in 2013, a tripling of the annual average.

Notably, 58 of those cases were among Hasidic Jews in the Brooklyn’s Boro Park and Williamsburg neighborhoods. It was the largest outbreak of measles in the US since 1996.

“It’s ALL SO RELATIVE,” said Katz, who was HONORED last week by the CDC. “True, there were 175 cases in the US so far this year, but there are 3-4 million cases a year worldwide. In Western Europe alone there are 25,000 cases per year.”

DSC_0158-195x293.jpg
Dr. Samuel Katz was honored this year, the 50th anniversary of his developing the measles vaccine. (photo credit: courtesy of Samuel Katz)

On an average day, 430 children die of measles worldwide. In 2011, there were an estimated 158,000 measles deaths.

In a phone interview with The Times of Israel, Katz, professor emeritus of pediatrics at Duke University, emphasized that the measles cases in the US were all the result of the IMPORTATION of the virus from other countries.

“We can tell this by looking at the GENETICS of the virus. We can even tell what country it came from,” Katz said.

“We are about to declare the Western Hemisphere MEASLES- and rubella-free, EXCEPT FOR IMPORTATION,” said Katz’s colleague, Dr. Louis Z. Cooper, professor emeritus of pediatrics at COLUMBIA University. Cooper is an expert on the rubella vaccine and CONSULTS with the WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION on infectious diseases.

The CDC reported that the outbreak last spring in HASIDIC Brooklyn was caused by an INTENTIONALLY UNVACCINATED 17-year-old who was infected with measles after a trip to ENGLAND.

Among the Brooklyn cases, 21 percent were among children TOO YOUNG to have received the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine. In Boro Park, there were 28 cases, all members of three extended families who had REFUSED to vaccinate their children.

The primary reasons for lack of vaccination among the 30 infected in Williamsburg were REFUSAL and delay to vaccinate.

Although there were NO DEATHS associated with the outbreak, Hamodia quoted a New York City Health Department spokeswoman as saying that there had been two hospitalizations, a miscarriage, and a case of pneumonia associated among those infected with measles.

Dr. Louis Z. Cooper is concerned about ‘under-immunized pockets’ in the US. (photo credit: courtesy of Louis Z. Cooper)

In 2010, there was an outbreak of mumps among 1,500 JEWISH BOYS and young men in BROOKLYN. In that case, an 11-year-old boy brought the virus back from BRITAIN and infected other boys at an ORTHODOX summer camp in Sullivan County, New York. These boys in turn carried the disease back to their home communities in Brooklyn.

At that time, Dr. Eli Rosen published an open letter in a Crown Heights publication emphasizing that the illness is preventable, and urging the community to get vaccinated."

http://www.timesofisrael.com/measles-vaccine-developer-warns-jewish-ant…

In an update Dr Eli Rosen released, he answers many frequently asked questions about the recent mumps outbreak in Crown Heights. The doctor states that the outbreak is “of unprecedented proportion.”

ROSEN ADMITS MUMPS VACCINE FAILURE:
"Is this epidemic caused by a new strain of mumps?
No, the current epidemic is caused by mumps strain G which is one of the strains included in the vaccine that has been available for the last 50 years.

Is the mumps vaccine effective?
Yes, despite my earlier concerns that the vaccine may have been ineffective, it appears that the best possible way to be protected remains receiving 2 doses of vaccine. However, the vaccine does not always “take” and since there is a “wear“ off” phenomenon, this allows for even vaccinated individuals to contract the mumps.

Children who have been given a dose of MMR at age 1 and again at age 4 seem to be protected in the vast majority of cases up until around age 12.

Beyond age 12 (including adults) immunity seems to wear off to levels that are not protective in a significant percentage of individuals.

Vaccinated individuals, primarily children, who contract the mumps are less prone to develop the complications of mumps (orchitis, meningitis, deafness).

Who is being most affected by the current epidemic?
Males are being much more frequently affected than females. Over the past few weeks, young adults (parents and teachers) seem to be contracting the illness at increasing rates. Unfortunately, adults are more prone to develop the complications of mumps than children.

Is Mumps Vaccine Available?
Vaccine is available in plentiful supply in a preparation combined with measles and rubella called MMR . There is no single component (“plain mumps vaccine”) available

Is MMR vaccine safe?
MMR is a safe vaccine although it cannot be used in pregnancy and in a few other medical conditions. Women who receive the vaccine should avoid getting pregnant for at least 28 days following vaccination. Individuals who manifest “full”blown emergency type” allergic symptoms to eggs should not take the vaccine.

Is there a reaction to the MMR vaccine?
MMR vaccine does cause some individuals, particularly adults, to have a brief flu“like illness usually one week following vaccination.

MMR and Autism?
In the past, there have been questions regarding autism and MMR. These questions were raised 14 years ago by Dr. Wakefield in England. Since then, he has been thoroughly discredited, his study withdrawn and numerous subsequent studies have shown no causative relationship between MMR and autism. However, because of this bogus but very popular research, vaccination rates have dropped and there has been a resurgence of the illness.

A recent outbreak of measles (an illness much more severe than mumps) in England has resulted in some serious consequences. The current “fashion” of not vaccinating children is clearly having an effect on the incidence of these diseases. In the presence of many infected individuals the virus can spread to those who are vaccinated, and as vaccination rates drop, the situation becomes more tenuous.

Why are vaccinated individuals contracting mumps?
There are 2 possible factors for this: waning of immunity with time and the large viral load present under epidemic conditions which seems to overwhelm the immune response.

Is a third dose of MMR effective?
It is my contention that a third dose of MMR is necessary to stem this epidemic in all older children and adults who have been previously vaccinated and have had recent close exposure.

Has a third dose been approved for use by the health authorities?
Unfortunately, not at this time. As such, it cannot be routinely given to those who have clear evidence of having received 2 doses of MMR.

Am I susceptible to Mumps?
Traditionally, we have used an IGG antibody blood test to determine immunity to mumps. Unfortunately, it would appear that this blood test (with the values used in the past) is not an accurate predictor of susceptibility to mumps. It is unclear at this time whether readjusting the normal range or refining the test will help us decide which individuals require another dose of MMR.

It is my contention that robust antibody levels (i.e. those higher than the normal cutoff) may be useful in determining who should receive a booster dose among those who have previously received 2 doses of vaccine.

What about being vaccinated after exposure?
Previously, it was stated that vaccination after exposure was not beneficial (too little, too late). However, with the current epidemic, the health authorities have approved the administration of vaccine for those who were recently exposed to a case of mumps and are unvaccinated or unsure of their vaccination status.

Individuals who have had mumps and those born before 1957 are considered immune. "

http://crownheights.info/psa/24436/mumps-virus-alert-dr-rosen-addresses…

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

#167
@ Lawrence

I HAVEN'T HEARD FROM YOU!
Will you support my campaign to OVERTURN THE CALIFORNIA THIMEROSAL BAN?
So you approve of using UNSAFE THIMEROSAL-FREE VACCINES?
HMMMM. Do you have children?

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

#173
That's a LIE.
"On 8 November 2013 at 0440 am a category 5 typhoon, Haiyan (locally named Yolanda), made landfall in the Guiuan municipality, Eastern Samar province, moving steadily north into the province of Northern Cebu, with maximum winds of 235 km/hr and severe gusts of 275 km/hr. The typhoon made subsequent landfalls in Tolosa municipality south of Tacloban City, Leyte province, Daanbantayan and Bantayan Island, Cebu province, and Conception, Iloilo province. The typhoon affected the city of Roxas in Capiz province and the tourism centre of Borocay in Aklan province.At least 18 million people live in the worst affected regions. "

"First reports from Government of the Philippines, UN Disaster Assessment and Coordination Teams (UNDAC) on the ground, and initial eyewitness reports/social media report massive devastation and deaths in areas directly in typhoon path:

All homes/buildings in the path of the storm have been seriously damaged

Areas of Cebu, Roxas and Tacloban devastated; Samar, Leyte, Iloilo, Aklan

and Coron badly hit

- Tacloban City - massive damage, large parts of the city flattened. Storm

surge over 7 metres. Entire coastline communities washed away.

- Palo City - very large number of casualties

- Samar – 80% destruction of buildings (see map of damaged houses in Annex 2).

Power and communications infrastructure have been seriously damaged.

Seaports and airports remain closed. Transport is very difficult and possible

only by helicopter at the moment

Security is of concern

In these areas, medical personnel will have been heavily affected and health facilities have been extensively damaged, including submerged ground floors, damaged and destroyed medical supplies, equipment, records, office equipment and buildings.

The Secretary of Health has formally requested assistance from WHO and partners for the immediate deployment of field medical teams (e.g. trauma), and emergency supplies (e.g. trauma kits, supplies, hospital tents). Requests for further assistance are expected.

Major risks to public health:

Major trauma and injuries are the first health concern following a typhoon. They require surgery and post-operative wound care to prevent infection and disability.

Population displacement, overcrowding, poor shelter, exposure, lack of safe water, sanitation and hygiene facilities, vector breeding and poor nutritional status, lead to

- increased communicable disease transmission and potential for outbreaks of

diseases such acute respiratory infections, MEASLES. diarrhea, typhoid fever

and viral enteric diseases.

- increased exposure to vector-borne diseases such as dengue and

chikungunya or malaria. Flooding may initially flush out mosquito breeding, which can restart when the waters recede. The lag time is usually around 6-8 weeks before the onset of increased disease transmission.

- displacement of animal populations leads to human rabies from the bites of infected cats and dogs.

Flooding is a known risk factor for outbreaks of leptospirosis

Disruption of health services and access to health care result from damaged and/or flooded health infrastructure, loss of medicines and supplies, and injured or dead health staff.

Malnutrition and communicable diseases. In children who are already undernourished or malnourished, prolonged and severe infections are more frequent.”

2.3 Diseases associated with displacement, crowding and flooding

Population displacement caused by flooding can result in overcrowding in resettlement areas, raising the risk of transmission of many communicable diseases. Acute respiratory infection, MEASLES, diphtheria, and pertussis are transmitted from person to person through respiratory droplets generated during coughing and sneezing, and the risks are increased when shelters are overcrowded and inadequately ventilated. The transmission of meningitis, waterborne and vector- borne diseases is also increased in such conditions.”

"Measles

There is a moderate to HIGH RISK of measles outbreak. The Philippines continues to report sporadic cases and outbreaks of measles (such as in 2011). National levels of vaccine coverage are RELATIVELY HIGH, however local levels in some of the affected areas are much lower.

Current recommendations are to conduct flood-response MEASLES IMMUNIZATION with vitamin A supplementation for ALL children 6-59 months old, REGARDLESS of their vaccination status, in ALL Internally Displaced People (IDP) SHELTERS that contain more than 1000 people. "

"Table 1. Routine vaccination coverage at one year of age, 2012, the Philippines:

MEASLES CONTAINING VACCINE 85% coverage

* Official country estimates reported to WHO/UNICEF, 2012” see p. 11

"Malnutrition

This problem is still present in certain areas of the Philippines, particularly for children aged 6-24 months. Under-nutrition is an important underlying factor contributing to childhood mortality, and has also been linked to impaired cognitive development. Anemia in preschool children is considered to be a moderate public health problem. The affected populations will be at increased risk of acute malnutrition if there is a lack of access to appropriate and adequate food, and reduced access to health and nutrition services. This will disproportionately affect vulnerable groups such as young children, pregnant and lactating women and older persons. Children with moderate acute malnutrition (MAM) need urgent food support or they will move into severe acute malnutrition (SAM) and potentially severe infection and death. In 2008, 34% of infants 0-6 months were exclusively breastfed (DHS). Nutritional needs among the flood-affected populations must be addressed urgently. "

"Immediate priorities:

Provision of food, safe drinking water, appropriate sanitation, shelter, and other

essential non-food items including fuel for cooking

Trauma care for the wounded with tetanus prevention

Provision of medicines and medical supplies

Establishment of emergency primary and secondary care for medical, surgical

and obstetric emergencies

Risk communication to the public

Management of dead bodies with retrieval and identification of victims

MEASLES VACCINATION, and polio vaccination in high risk areas

Establishment of an EARLY WARNING SYSTEM for early detection and response to

outbreaks

http://www.who.int/hac/crises/phl/sitreps/philippines_ph_risk_assessmen…

NOTE: OVERALL, PHILIPPINES HAD A HIGH VACCINATION RATE AND A CONSISTENT VERY LOW RATE OF MEASLES CASES UNTIL RIGHT AFTER THE TYPHOON HIT. IT WAS AFTER THE VACCINATION CAMPAIGN THAT A HUGE MEASLES OUTBREAK OCCURRED. THE PHILIPPINES MEASLES GENOTYPE IS BEING CALLED B3 and IS ALSO BEING IDENTIFIED AS THE GENOTYPE FOR 9 DISNEY CASES. HOWEVER, ACCORDING OFFICIAL RESEARCH, B3 IS ENDEMIC TO WEST AFRICA. THERE IS A BIG PUSH BY MSM TO BLAME 2014 U.S. OUTBREAK ON PHILIPPINES AND AMISH AID WORKERS THERE.

VERY IMPORTANT CDC GRAPH
“Measles cases by month of rash onset: Philippines, 2009-2014”
Shows confirmed cases made HUGE JUMP in Dec., Jan., and Feb, AFTER TYPHOON VACCINATION CAMPAIGN.
SCROLL to slide 12

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/ed/ciinc/downloads/2014-05-22/Wallace-measl…

DESCRIPTION OF TYPHOON
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/10/us-philippines-typhoon-idUSBR…

AMISH OUTBREAK:
"But that's wrong. The real story behind the 2014 outbreak isn't on the West Coast. It's in Ohio Amish country, where a missionary returning from the Philippines turned an otherwise unremarkable year for this virus into one of the worst in recent history. "
"At the time, this Amish population was generally against vaccination. This, however, wasn't a matter of religious principle but one of health concerns.

In the 1990s, Miller explained, two Ohio kids allegedly got sick after they took the MMR shot, which protects against measles, mumps, and rubella. Rumors about vaccine safety spread through the Amish community like a virus. "That put a scare in us and we quit," Miller says. This made it incredibly easy for measles — the most contagious virus known to man — to move through this cluster of unvaccinated individuals.”

"When he returned to Ohio, and fell ill, a doctor misdiagnosed him with Dengue fever, so he continued to pass his disease along to friends and neighbors, many of whom had refused the vaccine out of those concerns over adverse effects."

"The outbreak that Fletcher spent months working to contain ultimately infected 382 Amish Ohioans by the time it was declared over in August of last year. Nobody died, but nine wound up in the hospital with more serious symptoms.”

"The actual story of the 2014 outbreak complicates the narrative that has developed in the wake of the new outbreak of measles at Disneyland in early 2015: that a growing number of parents, led by Jenny McCarthy, have begun to opt their kids out of vaccinations, letting the disease spread easily.

Federal data shows no drop off in vaccination rates over the past decade
In fact, it's only about two percent of the population that refuses vaccines outright. All 50 states have had school immunization requirements since the early 1980s, though some now allow medical and philosophical exemptions. Even so, there hasn't been a drop off in vaccination rates in the past decade, the National Immunization Survey shows. Coverage for the MMR vaccine stands at 92 percent."

http://www.vox.com/2015/1/29/7929791/measles-outbreak-2014

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

A little HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE:

"In addition to treating medical concerns like cholera, dysentery, consumption and rheumatism, laudanum was in demand for military use. By 1841 the U.S. ARMY was using 2.8 million ounces of OPIUM tincture (Laudanum) and 500,000 opium pills each year. And one portion of the population in particular demanded laudanum – women. "

"As the British gained control of India, they also controlled its opium production and began sending as much as 2000 chests of opium per year to China. The Chinese emperors responded by making illegal the smoking of opium in 1729, then opium itself in 1799. The British refused to stop the vastly profitable trade and in 1839 began the First OPIUM WAR with China. The Chinese lost the war, gave in to the opium trade, and even ceded Hong Kong to the British. Many wealthy Americans, including Charles Cabot, John Cushing and JACOB ASTOR began to trade in OPIUM to China as well, finding the PROFITS irresistible."

"The British also firmed up their position on the supply side. In addition to India, they monopolized the purchase of Turkish opium, sending it exclusively to England and the U.S. WESTERN USE continued to SOAR at this time. By 1830, England was importing 22,000 pounds of OPIUM per year, and by 1840 the U.S. was importing 24,000 pounds. However the writing was on the wall. ADDICTION rates in Western nations were soaring with estimates ranging from 250,000 to 1,000,000 ADDICTS in the U.S. by 1900. The government would soon be forced to take action.

In 1875 SAN FRANCISCO banned OPIUM DENS. In 1890 the U.S. Congress imposed a TAX on OPIUM and morphine. In 1891 CALIFORNIA required warning labels on narcotics (any psychoactive compound that produces the morphine-like effect of relieving pain and inducing deep sleep."
http://www.thomsonsolutionsllc.com/TheOpiumStory.en.html
The Opium Story
Part One: The History of Opium
by Bruce Thomson, Thomson Solutions

1950's
"U.S. efforts to contain the spread of Communism in Asia involves forging alliances with tribes and warlords inhabiting the areas of the Golden Triangle, (an expanse covering Laos, Thailand and Burma), thus providing accessibility and protection along the southeast border of China. In order to maintain their relationship with the warlords while continuing to fund the struggle against communism, the U.S. and France supply the drug warlords and their armies with ammunition, arms and air transport for the production and sale of opium. The result: an explosion in the availability and illegal flow of heroin into the United States and into the hands of drug dealers and addicts."
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/heroin/etc/history.html

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

Sorry, Science Mom, that was an unintentional name change! Pertussis is the one I worry most about.

Pertussis is certainly a concern and we undoubtedly need a better vaccine, or revert to the whole cell version which would address current issues of effectiveness. But even with the flaws in current pertussis vaccines, there is no denying that those vaccinated are proffered better protection in the form of disease attenuation and are less likely to spread disease to distal contacts than unvaccinated people. So that is not many vaccines and refusing to offer it or enabling erroneous beliefs is simply wrong and not in the best interests of your young patients.

Orac! “fallacy of the golden mean”–Do you make this stuff up as you go along??

Uh that one's been around for quite a while and is very apropos to describe your comment. And Becky Estepp really? WTH were you thinking?

By Science Mom (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

Science Mommy, I surf right in front of those volleyball courts at Tower 24 on weekends. Watch for me.

Sorry, when I'm there my friends like to go to the Pier courts. And next year will be San Diego.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 15 Jul 2015 #permalink

Religion says you cannot question your priests. Likewise, parents cannot question their scientists, even if those scientists go insane. Yes, now injecting mercury, aluminum, squalene, human aborted fetal tissue, MSG, gluten, peanut oil, insects, raw eggs, cancer viruses among other things is GOOD for you and you’re ‘anti-science’ if you question your priests

Oh, you can question scientists.
However, it is very frowned upon when you repeatedly ask a question they answered over and over and act as if they never answered anything.
Or as if they never conducted studies to check these claims.
Or when your only argument is an argument from incredulity.

OK, it's not a historical analogy, but it is boneheaded and analogous to the spluttered VaxTwoof billboard effort:

Courtesy of AoA's "TELL A FRIEND IT'S VACCINE INJURY, one has the following refinement:

BILLBOARD: “Know the Signs of Vaccine Injury: inconsolable screaming, loss of eye contact, migraines, stops talking, self injury, intractable diarrhea, feces eating."

I heartily endorse this marketing approach.

History? I can assure you that the Ireland of 1700 bore no relation to the frenzied delusions that inspired the post. For starters, the word "nation" meant something entirely different. Most Irish people were scholars and poets? Um, no. Just no. Which is no excuse for what the English did. As always, a little context would go a long way.

By James Lind (not verified) on 16 Jul 2015 #permalink

@CD:

mercury, aluminum, squalene, human aborted fetal tissue, MSG, gluten, peanut oil, insects, raw eggs, cancer viruses among other things

Worst Chinese restaurant ever!

By justthestats (not verified) on 16 Jul 2015 #permalink

CD, I'm a Lutheran. I know for a fact that there are numerous religions that started from "questioning priests."

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 16 Jul 2015 #permalink

I don't like their answers =/= parents cannot question their scientists.

Sorry. Typing's a bit problematic today.

Oops sorry.Michelle beat me to it. :(

By Roger Kulp (not verified) on 16 Jul 2015 #permalink

shay: "With a bottle of Vicodin on onehand and a splint on the other*"

Ah, I see I have company in that club! I now have almost full movement in the wrist where I broke my arm a few months a go. The orthopedic surgeon keeps telling pain is good,.

A few weeks after surgery I have to move in order to stretch the tendons, muscles, etc to remove the stiffness. That is where pain is supposed to be good. Hopefully I won't have to see a physical therapist. My neighbor is a PT in a burn unit, she told me her job is to torture people.

I hope you have a good recovery. I have found pruning trees and swimming the breast stroke in the pool have really helped increase my wrist's flexibility.

Yes, now injecting mercury, aluminum, squalene, human aborted fetal tissue, MSG, gluten, peanut oil, insects, raw eggs, cancer viruses among other things is

How do they got not just one but several raw eggs into the tiny vial, much less squeeze them through a syringe's needle?

Unless...do vaccines contain caviar?

#168

Should there not be a law or a dictum or something which states that those who call science a religion clearly understand neither science nor religion?

Disclaimer: brought up a Methodist, trained as a scientist and a nurse.

James @ 163

Yup, it doesn't sound much like anything I have heard of Irish history - my Irish ancestors certainly weren't poets and scholars, more like farm labourers who got out during the Famine, only to end up working in quarries and coal mines in north eastern England.

@ shay:

I hope that you're already feeling better.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 16 Jul 2015 #permalink

JCG #191

Lumpfish roe, shirley? Caviar would eat into the mega profits Big Pharma makes on Teh Ebil Vaccines and then how would all us shills be paid?

#174 Brian
Experts praise chichenop vaccination program (Toronto Star 2015-07-16, pg. A1)

“Ontario's publicly funded chickenpox vaccination program appears to have dramatically reduced the number of children who get infected with he virus, researchers say.

In a study that looked at 20 years of data Public Health Ontario found a 71 percent drop in doctor's office and emergency room visits and a 59 percent decrease in hospitalizations due to chickenpox among children under 18 after the public immunization program was introduced in 2004, compared with two earlier periods.

And news from the nuttier part of the antivax world
http://the-toast.net/2015/07/10/today-i-learned-about-the-anti-vaccinat…

Since I come from what was and may still be the rabies centre of the world though the provincial governments have done a great job of containing it, I am not at all impressed. I get twitchy when near a wild or free-roaming animal that I don't know has be vaccinated.

By jrkrideau (not verified) on 16 Jul 2015 #permalink

With a bottle of Vicodin on onehand and a splint on the other*

Ah, Vicodin. I got a few of those once after I had this cyst on my neck lanced and whatnot (which was totally gross) and I tried to ask for some more one day when I went to UHS to get the packing changed, and they were like "Hahaha no." Which is a good thing.

Heal up quick, shay.

Sorry, Dr. Jay. If you want to see my pictures, make sure to check out the blog, or my flickr page. Or Twitter once I make it public again when I get back.

A lot of the people I've met here have less than 1% the wealth that most people in the US have, and they are very happy to go get vaccinated. Why? Because they haven't done their research? Because they don't know any better?

No, because they want to be wealthier. They have come to see how vaccinated children grow up and contribute to the family more than the children who have died from vaccine-preventable diseases. People here in "The Third World" see vaccination and other public health measures as the great equalizers that will give them that much of a better shot at making it into the "Developed Nations" club. Their parents not too long ago saw the ravages of things like measles, German measles, typhoid, etc. Then they saw vaccines come to be law and required of all children, no excuses, and see schools fill up with kids who in a few years time will fill colleges and universities and become professionals who will lift themselves and their towns out of poverty as well. It's a long process, but one that has benefited from public health interventions that work.
Choosing to be anti-vaccine comes from the comfort and complacency of being fat and wealthy. Period.
Choosing alternative vaccine schedules comes from the delusional idea that years of experience with a limited and self-selected subset of the population is applicable to the entire population, and that hard work put into answering questions at a population level is to be suspect "just 'coz".
I wholeheartedly invite any antivaxxer reading this to come along with me next time I travel to a developing nation and look people in the eye and tell them that your way is better than what public health has to offer. Tell them that their sick or dying child will be better off in the long run. If you manage to do this with a straight face, then that will only reveal the kind of monster you are.

Somewhat tangentially related. SB792, which requires day-care workers to show proof of immunity to measles, whooping cough, and influenza*, passed the Assembly Human Services Committee 6-1. Next stop, Assembly Appropriations.
_______
* a PBE is available for this one. I'm not in favor of the PBE, but I'd rather have that than have the bill die in committee.

hope that you’re already feeling better

Thanks to my friend Vic O'Din, yes, I feel much better. It was a stupid and entirely preventable household accident* that forced my forefinger and thumb into a position never intended by Nature.

(*I tried telling my interns it wa asa bar fight. They ddint' buy it).

Re Bradstreet's suicide, after reading the Washington Post article

I wonder if Bradstreet had a record of a GcMAF patient fatality, or at least some serious adverse reactions, hiding in his records. The magic potion certainly seemed to come with side effects, based on the comments on autism web.com. If so, having those records in the FDA's hands would certainly go a long way toward explaining the suicide.

In fact, it wouldn't even have to be a GcMAF patient - it could be one of his chelation patients. Or any of the other flavors of toxic woo he peddled.

Was Bradstreet ever sued by the parents of a patient (victim, rather), or am I thinking of someone else?

Jay Gordon @ 166:

All I need from you is a commitment to a response to the misinformation spread by anti-anti-vaccine activists.

That's interesting -- you object to anti-anti-vaccine activism. Yet you say you yourself are not antivaccine, and that you object to people who are antivaccine; you're merely in favor of spacing them out more, and of parental choice.

So why, then, do you object so strongly to antivaccine opposition that you label it as misinformation? I thought you said you were not antivaccine, and that you support some vaccines. Have you just spoken a little more honestly than you intended?

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 16 Jul 2015 #permalink

shay, all I have to say is "ouch!"

Most of my broken bones have stupid stories. The last one was due to getting both legs into one side of the jammies, the previous was because I slipped on dog poo at a park while chasing down a toddler. One bit of advice: drink plenty of fluids because the Vic O'Din can cause issues with your intestinal function,

JGC @191

Blenders. The miracle of modern science.

By Roger Kulp (not verified) on 16 Jul 2015 #permalink

@Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP - I am in the middle of a hot move on top of my normal life (livestock don't really care what else is going on, hay is all about dry sunny days, etc.), and didn't get back to this until today. Thank you for your response and honesty. To frustrate me a little more, the PDF reader glitched on my latest tablet update and every attempt to read the paper failed, requiring me to actually get the dreaded laptop (as my eyes get older, the tablet gets too small in the evening anyhow - time to upgrade beyond my little HDX7).

So. Germs are everywhere, free riding hiding in the herd is their risk, parents with children who are immune compromised or too young for vaccination taking them to doctor appointments or hospitals is their risk, and their own fault for risking their child in the first place. I bet you charge a lot more for house calls?

My son's pediatrician was equally skeptical about varicella vaccination, but I couldn't get him infected naturally before kindergarten and mandatory vaccination hit the schedule. It has been a bad thing for my 19-year-old niece, who has been somehow diagnosed with shingles (twice!) already. She also has developed anaphylaxis to something and got an epipen. I never got an update on all that went on there.

@Toto - I am a nobody, honest. I dabble a little in writing and things like that. No one of consequence.

I would love to afford/have access to the right books in the right order to understand the actual science behind this. I know I do not have the education required to understand epidemiology or immunology. I understand cell culture a bit better than the average parent (wrote marketing and marketed educational materials for a biotech company for a product roll out), so I understand a lot of what is included in the scary ingredient list and why they are there, but that, and maybe a better than average understanding of very basic biology and chemistry is all that sets me apart from anyone.

@shay - owie! At one job I was required to have a standard pre-employment physical. It was an office job, but it was company-wide; it was for a utility company and a lot of employees were union, so I could understand. When the interviewing doctor read my broken bones list, he actually asked if I was a bull rider at one point... something about the calcaneus, septum, phalanges, etc., etc., etc... at least he didn't accuse me of being a boxer.

@ shay:

Yiii!
A guy fell on his finger ( probably broken) at tennis last week but played anyway this week by holding his racquet in an interesting manner- he can switch to left as well.

@ Chris:

I have had a few fractures which have bizarre stories-
at eighteen, I was dancing around the house ( in preparation for a concert later that night) and stepped on something metal ( part of a table leg perhaps) to avoid stepping on a Siamese cat who circling about me like a loonie: I went to the concert but three days later I learned that I had two broken bones in my foot but needed no cast , I just limped.

Driving a few years later, I skidded on wet pavement into another car - no real damage to either- but hit my nose on the steering wheel *ET voila!* - it was broken but didn't move and thus, didn't need any work done. But it hurt for a month or two.

I also slipped on icy concrete steps and broke a toe- no cast.

@ Mrs Woo:
You have many other qualities that set you apart.
Believe me, I know about these things.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 16 Jul 2015 #permalink

I sprained my ankle really badly a year and a half ago while I was visiting friends in Portland; I managed to do it on my birthday. What was really fun was telling people that I got it by falling out of a bus and watching their faces. (It is technically true, as I was stepping out of the bus, my ankle slid under me, and I took a very hard spill.)

Luckily, a nice lady gave me a ride back to the house, and adrenalin or something helped me up the stairs and inside, where I said pretty non-nonchalantly to my friend Andrine, "I think I may have f*cked up my ankle." It's a good thing she was there, too, because otherwise I probably would have just carried on with making dinner, drinking a couple beers, etc. F*cking ankle was the size of a grapefruit. Was on crutches for weeks.

***That should be marketing education materials, not marketed; I wrote for the marketing department.

With the way my body works I get one good day, crash, burn... in crash and burn from another productive day. My eyes and brain never work right then. Ha! Maybe by the end of the move we can find the me that moved us here before I got sick. Maybe she is just far back in an attic space...

Maybe by the end of the move we can find the me that moved us here before I got sick. Maybe she is just far back in an attic space…

Aw, Mrs. Woo, this got me right in the feels.

I don't believe in an interventionist G-d*, but sometimes I wish I did. It sure seems like some of us could use a little intervening.

(Mr. Cave just lost a son, I found out; 15 year old kid fell off a cliff in England.)

BYE - BYE AMERICA!

My ancestors founded this country and established the Constitution. THIS GENERATION JUST TOOK IT DOWN!
It couldn't have happened to a more DESERVING GROUP OF PEOPLE!
Romans 1:27-30

http://abcsofdumbdown.blogspot.com/2015/07/red-alert-red-alert-red-aler…
http://abcsofdumbdown.blogspot.com/2015/01/lamar-alexanders-re-authoriz…
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6zikOSdV-TAdHRPSFhNdWtmcW8/view?pli=1
THIS WILL APPLY TO HOME SCHOOLERS AS WELL.
All exits are locked.
Here are your new Children's DATA MASTERS:
http://dailysignal.com/2015/06/25/irs-employees-erased-422-backup-tapes…

THE GREAT STATE OF CALIFORNIA'S NEW STATE FLOWER:
Coming to a yard near YOU!
http://enenews.com/yahoo-news-mutated-plants-fukushima-gain-internet-fa…

HAVE A NICE DAY!

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 16 Jul 2015 #permalink

#182
"BILLBOARD: “Know the Signs of Vaccine Injury: inconsolable screaming, loss of eye contact, migraines, stops talking, self injury, intractable diarrhea, feces eating.”"

One of mine had ALL of these symptoms. HE HAS A DOCTOR'S WAIVER FROM FUTURE VACCINATION.
This is why I post. Go to He**!
Oh yea, you're already halfway there.

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 16 Jul 2015 #permalink

#198 Ren
"Choosing to be pro-vaccine comes from the comfort and complacency of being fat and wealthy."
YOU CERTAINLY FIT THAT DESCRIPTION, "REN"
LOL!
Please push your cr*p somewhere else. We all know that any "poverty" is a result of the U.S. BACKED DRUG LORDS there.
My spouse grew up in Columbia. Spouse's dad worked for the GLOBALISTS. Of course all the "free" vaccines you dish out are from FULL THIMEROSAL MULTI-DOSE VIALS. Way to go!
Perhaps THAT IS WHY they are still in need of help?

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 16 Jul 2015 #permalink

#186
"Some seemed well aware that GcMAF was not an approved medicine."

Yes, let's look at the ACCUSATIONS against one that WAS FDA approved....
"The two scientists, Stephen Krahling and Joan Wlochowski, filed their whistleblower lawsuit in 2010 claiming Merck, the only company licensed by the Food and Drug Administration to sell a mumps vaccine in the United States, skewed tests of the vaccine by adding animal antibodies to blood samples.

As a result, they said, Merck was able to produce test results showing that the vaccine was 95 percent effective, even though more accurate tests would have shown a lower success rate. The plaintiffs said these false results kept competitors from trying to produce their own mumps vaccines, since they were unable to match the effectiveness Merck claimed."
HTTP://WWW.REUTERS.COM/ARTICLE/2015/06/04/HEALTH-VACCINE-IDUSL1N0YQ0W820150604

AFTER READING THE NON-FACTUAL SLAM JOB "NEWS STORY"
I am more convinced it was FOUL PLAY.

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 16 Jul 2015 #permalink

@JP - as we pack I remember more and more - "I carried bundles of that red oak in, helped lay it, sanded it, tacked it and finished it;" "I painted this house in a week..." "I laid the tile there..."

Terrible news about Mr Cave. No one should lose a child. My youngest is only a year and so older. Feeling so sad for the man - tonight we had an argument over how he dresses. Part of it is just adolescent rebellion. If the worst he does is wear torn t-shirts in public, I am a blessed mother, but I want him to be aware, too, that people are always watching. Sometimes they make judgments that are very wrong based solely on appearances. Is it probably not a good idea for them to do so? Yes. Is it a very common habit of human nature? Most definitely. He will outgrow it on his own. If I were a girl about his age and told him he looked like he spent his days dumpster diving, he probably would throw every single shirt away the minute he got home.

Poor Mr Cave. The hardest part of the death of a child, I think, is the death of all of the hope and promise. You don't have a "plan" per second - no picked out imagined spouse, college or career for your child, but you do anticipate all of these milestones, and with that death, they are gone, and a hole is opened in your heart that you learn to live with even as it gets tugged at and reopened at every wedding, graduation, baby... every milestone, birthday...

Those missing the boy will weigh heavily on my heart.

The tangent in the middle - an argument with my son. Made more poignant because of Mr Cave's loss. I was actually crushed. My son was so insistent on dressing as he pleased he refused to change to go out to dinner. We left him home. It broke my heart. I guess a woman who has pet chickens is too tender-hearted for too much teen rebellion.

If the worst he does is wear torn t-shirts in public, I am a blessed mother, but I want him to be aware, too, that people are always watching. Sometimes they make judgments that are very wrong based solely on appearances. Is it probably not a good idea for them to do so? Yes. Is it a very common habit of human nature? Most definitely. He will outgrow it on his own.

Heh; maybe. I was fairly recently reminded by my advisor that I'm going to have to start wearing real grown-up clothes some day, to which my response was something like, "Yeah, yeah," I think. He also mentioned that I actually look a little sharper than he did as a grad student, since my T-shirts don't actually have holes in them.

He's a very snappy dresser these days, actually, which I think is something of a reaction formation to being told he looked like a homeless person at some point as a grad student. We both were/are kind of feral, I guess, except that he is from Atlantic City and I am from the middle of nowhere.

as we pack I remember more and more – “I carried bundles of that red oak in, helped lay it, sanded it, tacked it and finished it;” “I painted this house in a week…” “I laid the tile there…”

It's funny how going through boxes, or packing them, can bring up memories like that. Slightly different, but a little over a year ago, my friend Vlad and I were hanging out and had been up all night, gone down to the river, had indulged in several different substances, etc. We were back in my apartment in the wee hours and I decided I needed to show him something that was in my closet, and eventually I came across a box with the few possessions that I'd kept since leaving home. (I was down to what would fit in a backpack at one point.) I hadn't looked at them maybe since college, somehow; what's funny is that I kept several mementos of really painful events. I mean, there were other things too, photos of friends, zines we had made, other funny things like that. My "archive," Vlad called it.

MORE HISTORY:
The origins of the original "HIPPIES"
"The opium trade, which China had been forced to recognize as legal, had become an extremely sensitive subject. Thousands of addicts (known as "hippies" because they would lie on their hips while smoking opium) had created a serious social problem. Elements in Parliament called for an end to commercial activities that perpetuated the pain and suffering of these addicts. The issue was seized by nationalists who argued for an end to the domination of colonial powers in China, and it eventually led to uprisings such as the Boxer Rebellion and the Republican Revolution. For its own protection and business interests, Jardine Matheson was forced to curtail trading opium.
Read more: http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/history2/51/Jardine-Matheson-Holdin…

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 16 Jul 2015 #permalink

MORE MORE HISTORY
The origins of Jardine Matheson....

"William Jardine was born in 1784 in Dumfriesshire, Scotland. After studying medicine, Jardine went to work for the British East India Company as a ship's surgeon, but left the East India Company in 1832 to establish a trading company in Canton, China, with James Matheson, the son of a Scottish baronet, who had served for several years as Danish consul in China.....Unable to make money selling manufactured goods to the Chinese, Jardine Matheson began smuggling opium into China aboard ships chartered from Calcutta in British India. Opium clippers sailed under cover of darkness to forbidden ports, while company agents bribed harbormasters and watchmen to prevent being discovered by the authorities."
Read more: http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/history2/51/Jardine-Matheson-Holdin…

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 16 Jul 2015 #permalink

"Lord Sassoon, a former UBS Warburg banker who had been a junior minister in the British Treasury since May 2010, joined Jardine Matheson as an executive board member in January 2013. This appointment brought together members of two great Asian trading dynasties, since Jardine Matheson and the Sassoon family were rivals in the 19th century when they competed to open up and grow trade in Hong Kong and China."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jardine_Matheson

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 16 Jul 2015 #permalink

Anyone notice how Dr. Jay Gordon tends to disappear from the comments when the questions get a little too hard for him or when it's pointed out how he deviates from standard of care?

Toto: why don't you say "bye bye" to America and just leave? I hear there are several nations in various parts of the world where vaccines aren't readily available, and I'm sure you'll be very happy there.

#198 Ren
“Choosing to be pro-vaccine comes from the comfort and complacency of being fat and wealthy.”
YOU CERTAINLY FIT THAT DESCRIPTION, “REN”
LOL!
Please push your cr*p somewhere else. We all know that any “poverty” is a result of the U.S. BACKED DRUG LORDS there.
My spouse grew up in Columbia. Spouse’s dad worked for the GLOBALISTS. Of course all the “free” vaccines you dish out are from FULL THIMEROSAL MULTI-DOSE VIALS. Way to go!
Perhaps THAT IS WHY they are still in need of help?

The drug wars aren't entirely responsible for the terrible poverty in Columbia. Newsflash, Columbia was poor long before the drug wars.

You really need to get your head out of your privileged behind. Do it from behind your computer, I'm totally not suggesting you experience extreme poverty firsthand. I wouldn't want to inflict you on people who deserve far better.

That Washington Post article was really well done. Anyone know what the progress is of those private investigators hired to confirm the manner of death? And what's the over/under that they'll find some anomaly and call it all a conspiracy?

Ren, I've already read articles/ comments wherein anti-vax partisans include Bradstreet with other alt med practitioners who died suddenly recently.

-btw-
I enjoyed reading about your work in Columbia.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

Ren! I found your blog. Nice stuff. Great adventure.

Parents of children with autism are often desperate for advice, treatment, improvement, cure. They are vulnerable to everyone from conventional ASD docs who stretch out the evaluation and treatment to fringe docs who think they may have an answer, albeit an unproven answer.

We all know that there are doctors and others unfairly taking money from families.

If I had a nonverbal 7-year-old with autism, I would look everywhere including to doctors with very unconventional solutions.

If none of that worked, maybe I'd kill myself by shooting myself.
In the chest.
With a handgun.
While standing in a river.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

Todd-- I disappear when my workload gets too heavy. Today, I am scheduled to see patients from 8:00 AM to 6:00 PM. What do you do?

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

You'd consider killing yourself rather than parent a nonverbal 7 year old autistic child?
Wow.

AdamG . . . no. That was an ironic note about the plausibility of Dr. Bradstreet's death actually being suicide.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

Dr. Jay, did you really mean to phrase it that way? Because that kind of stuff -- that it's better to be dead than deal with autism -- is very dangerous thinking. I hope you just typed faster than you can think.

Denice, thanks for reading.

This is why Dr. Gordon, Sears, Bradstreet and the rest of their ilk disgust me.

Especially attending a talk on special needs trust at the local children's hospital. It is amazing how many parents of twenty-something children with normal intelligence and autism who are trying to navigate the system. We need services to get our children gainful employment, supported housing and help with dealing with the world (like their anxiety). Not idiotic and expensive cures.

Gordon, stop wasting our time and endangering the health of children.

Well, Dr Jay. In all honesty...if you were guilty of passing off an illegal biomedical as a cure for autism, I wouldn't be surprised if you killed yourself. However, I'll give you that much credit. While you do promote some quackery, you don't go THAT far.

Ren, the one thing I really like about you is that you never sound unintelligent and clueless. Until the above two posts.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

And, Chris, you're anonymous and can say anything you like whether it makes sense or not. Your contributions are therefore worthless.

MI Dawn . . . thank you.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

AdamG . . . no. That was an ironic note about the plausibility of Dr. Bradstreet’s death actually being suicide.

As explained here, in the US, the most common method of suicide used by doctors is a firearm. Nearly half of all physician suicides involve a firearm.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/07/17/gcmaf-autism-and-the-appar…

Moreover, in both the US and UK, the percentage of physician suicides in which a firearm is the method is very similar to the percentage of suicides among the general population utilizing firearms.

Even the Pfffft of all Knowledge knows about it. Why doesn’t purportedly educated person such as yourself?

Yeah, it's pretty amazing to me that Dr. Jay doesn't know what that logical fallacy is.

All I need from you is a commitment to a response to the misinformation spread by anti-anti-vaccine activists.

All I need from you are some concrete examples of "misinformation spread by anti-anti-vaccine activists." I'll wait.

If I had a nonverbal 7-year-old with autism, I would look everywhere including to doctors with very unconventional solutions.

Dr, Jay, when you went looking for these solutions would you hold the 'unconventional' ones to the same standard of proof of safety and efficacy you would hold the conventional scienced-based solutions for autism to, or for that matter the standard of proof you now presumably require for science-based solutions for indications other than autism?

And, Chris, you’re anonymous and can say anything you like whether it makes sense or not. Your contributions are therefore worthless.

Dr Jay, if you think Chris has posted something that doesn't make sense, identify what that is and demonstrate it doesn't make sense.

It isn't enough to simply wave your hands and assert "Your posts don't make sense because ANONYMITY!": Arguments stand or fall on their own merit, not on the basis of the identity of the person advancing them.

That was an ironic note about the plausibility of Dr. Bradstreet’s death actually being suicide.

You say that as if it were implausible to beleive that Dr. Bradstreet's death to be the result of suicide--why?

Ren, I believe I have read and commented on your blog, unless there are other regulars here involved in similar pursuits.

I am in awe of what you do. I might romanticize it a bit (maybe not - when I was in the Navy, I preferred the poorer parts of the islands to the tourist traps; I love meeting people). You touch lives that will remember you, some of them forever. My little place in the world only helps displaced dysfunctional Americans - ex convicts, aged out foster kids, when we can. I hope to maybe make more of an organized effort for aged-out foster kids in the future once the farm is up and running. I see new research on my illness all the time (some which even suggests my frustrated yearning for drastic measures should be tempered with patience), but I know as well as the next medically-literature person that in vitro studies do not equate to successful human trials. They are promising direction for further study which may yield fruit a decade or longer away.

@ Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP - from 1987-1989 I worked as the managing caretaker in two different group homes for a non-profit organization. The adults living in these homes had diagnosed including retardation, Downs syndrome, autism, and most actually had multiple diagnoses, which is pretty common. I was responsible for teaching them living skills, menu planning, medication, accounting for their spending money, keeping order, supervising a part-time aide in the afternoons, meals, etc. The house with the fewest clients (4 to 5) also had the most disabled, and the higher-functioning clients (8-9) had two or three who were verbal and one who could bathe oneself.

I wasn't paid greatly. Wasn't paid terribly. Had to be first aid/CPR certified, had to be licensed to administer and track medication including subQ injection for insulin, etc. Worked mostly with the profoundly disabled. Two were severely autistic - the moaning, hand-flapping, hand-biting (one had terrible calluses from a lifetime of doing so), grunting, sniffing you... other people quickly taught you what upset them, what they liked - most parents of autistic children I know now (my grandson is autistic, and another good friend has a daughter who is autistic that she blogs about) - they recognize that these human beings can be over stimulated and overreact. They recognize these children are sick.

I know that these clients weren't my kid. I know my grandson is my grandson. I know the passion of any parent is to do everything we can to prevent our child's suffering. But, gee. Suicide over my autistic child? When that child needs me to advocate for it, teach it and translate for it a world that assumes that different equals bad? When I, more than any human than its other parent is the only person personally and profoundly motivated to give that child everything they need to succeed?

Dr. Gordon, you have it wrong. As someone with an incurable illness in a family that has dominant hereditary spinocerebellar ataxia type 1 (4 cases currently - that isn't mine, I haven't done that test), I know all too well that there are people all over the world peddling hope to parents, partners and children who just want to relieve the suffering of the person they love. They will buy anything labeled "cure" that they can afford. They will take out second mortgages and cash in retirements. Anything.

But they won't suicide over a diagnosis. Not by a long shot. They will fight until their last breath to cure the precious person they love the most, and when it comes to autism and Aspergers and similar spectrum illnesses, the sooner the general public learns these are developmental, not static, that there is often progress... maybe if they learned some of the science of autism they could be less taken by conspiracy theory and made a little less poverty-stricken by vendors of false hope.

Oh how I miss preview function. Why autocorrect believed I did not intend to use diagnoses the first time, etc., etc., I am not illiterate, honest.

Implausible . . . with no more details than I have now, I'd have to say that further investigation is very important. I do find it possible that he killed himself this way.

And MI Dawn: oh, never mind.

Orac: I was invited, I wrote. I received approbation from other more important places.

Part of the "merit" you mention, JGC, involves taking responsibility for one's statements. Anonymity guarantees that one will never be held responsible.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

@Orac - when I dug out my laptop so I could read the paper, my brain began to suggest that you had analyzed it, but I didn't take the time to search. I even considered doing it last night, but got distracted and then promptly forgot.

Dr. Jay @ 229 and even JGC @ 244

Just out of curiosity,can you name me any "unconventional" treatments for autism that are not based upon the idea that the autism was caused by,or triggered by,vaccines? Offhand I can't think of any.

Chris @235

As someone who has a sister with high functioning autism,and comorbid bipolar disorder,I agree with what you say,but there is also a finite amount of both resources,and the funding for same.There is a debate we are not having in society about where should those resources go as far as helping autistic adults.At the higher functioning or at the lower functioning end of the spectrum?Is there anything we could do to help lower functioning adults become higher functioning?One reason we are not having these discussions is because of all this silly stuff about vaccines that refuses to go away.

By Roger Kulp (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

Dr. Gordon: "Anonymity guarantees that one will never be held responsible."

So what? You don't understand most of the parents with autism because you only associate with the few who have the means to ignore their responsibilities to society, and who really don't care that they are sapping the resources we need.

You are shirking your responsibility to the science, and to actually offering real valid advice to your privileged patients. You are endangering children, and causing harm by deflecting away from the real issues.

Also I am not anonymous to our blog host (who I have met in real life), nor am I anonymous to the hospital when I complained about seeing Polly Tommey's "Autism File" rag in their gift shop. They were not at all happy when the vendor left copies of a magazine that had Andrew Wakefield as a "science editor" in the shop just down the corridor from the heart transplant clinic.

You, like the "information" in that magazine (thankfully only online, not in print anymore), are a public health danger.

Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP@232

AdamG . . . no. That was an ironic note about the plausibility of Dr. Bradstreet’s death actually being suicide.

A rather tasteless note to say the least.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

I respectfully disagree with Dr Jay:

if Chris says something of merit that adds to the conversation, includes data, instructs people or just makes a point- it's not meaningless.

How different would it be if she called herself 'Chris Wilson' or whatever name she uses? It's the information.

This isn't a court of law.

AND if someone DID say something damaging or problematic ( e.g. make a threat) they COULD be held accountable despite their anonymous status.

Now I hope that saying this doesn't queer my chances of getting invited surfing or to a luau.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

Denice--Evaluating a person's opinions is easier when you something about their credentials. But the main issue is that one can be inaccurate, profane, rude, disrespectful and much more when anonymous. I'm a vegetarian. No luaus. Waves? Yes

capnkrunch--I agree. Too hastily typed and sent. Poor taste.

Chris--you are 100% anonymous and that allows you to post the way you post. Zero accountability. Zero.

Roger--I'm not sure about the first part of your post. As for the second, we allocate resources poorly and the government has far too little regard for the needs of families affected by autism.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

Regarding parents who will do anything for their children - I have a cousin with 3 children. 2 of whom have an inborn metabolism error that will kill them, probably before their parents, likely before they turn 30. They have gone from verbal to nonverbal, intelligent to greatly afflicted. My cousin and her spouse work hard to advocate for their children and others like them, and to also support their "normal" child. Suicide would never cross their minds. Despair, sorrow, frustration? Sure. But they would never leave their children.

Evaluating a person’s opinions is easier when you something about their credentials.

Doxxing them and harassing them at work is also much easier when you know their name. No, I'm not saying that you do that or approve of it. However, a lot of antivaxers who look up to you do do that, as I found out personally. You might recall that five years ago, some of your admirers at AoA did just that to me, writing letters and e-mails and phoning my dean and the board of governors at the university, alleging an undisclosed conflict of interest.

Let's just put it this way. When the dean sends you a message to call her on her cell phone right away, there is agita involved. Fortunately, your friends over at AoA, Safeminds, etc., were so clueless that the lie was so ridiculous that it wasn't hard to explain why it was a lie to my dean. I likened the antivaxers to animal rights protesters in their irrationality, and she "got it" right away. She even asked me if I felt threatened physically and offered the support of the university.

However, I'm in a university, where the culture is academic freedom, free speech, etc. It's a culture inherently resistant to punishing academics for complaints about their views. Indeed, the same thing happened at the last university I worked for before this one when my 'nym was first cracked. My chairman dismissively called the guy who harassed me there for my blogging a "bully" and suggested that I ignore him. So I did.

If I really did work for a drug company or if I worked for a private hospital, there's no guarantee that the administration would be so supportive. (Indeed, the clinical leadership I've dealt with have not been so militantly supportive of me as the medical school and university leadership.) People who work for private companies can easily be silenced under threat of losing their job when cranks complain about their online activities. I know people who have come under such threat.

That is why some people remain pseudonymous or anonymous. That's why I used a pseudonym exclusively when I first started blogging. Back then, I learned quickly that antivaxers and quacks who didn't like what I was writing frequently focused obsessively on finding out who I was. I note, Dr. Jay, that you demonstrate a bit of that characteristic yourself in your denigration of people who post under 'nyms and your rather intense curiosity about who your critics are.

Here's a word of advice. Just concentrate on the quality of the arguments and the data and evidence used to back them up, and not so much on the identities of those posting here under 'nyms. In the end, that's what matters.

Orac, your defense of cowardice and lack of accountability in online communication is eloquent.

I think that the harassment you're discussing is disgraceful. I have nothing but criticism and disdain for anyone claiming to be on "my" side who does that and equal criticism for the people on your side who have made certain that I have been subject to constant harassment and threats for years.

Because of that, I understand your fear. I will persist in denigrating unaccountable posters. They deserve it.

Agita responds to Tums better than to homeopathy in my experience.

Cell phone?? How about when UCLA terminates your academic appointment for invented reasons or when the head of your department at another hospital calls you aside to remind you that your hospital privileges are reviewed annually and that complaints have come in from doctors outside of the institution's staff.

What matters is accountability. Anonymous posters have none. That trumps everything else.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

But, it's your sandbox and you make the rules.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

Dr. Jay, unlike you, I'm not a pediatrician publicly suggesting that it's perfectly okay to colour outside the lines when it comes to public health. If I were, I'd have no qualms about posting my real name. Indeed, one of your harshest critics here, a fellow MD, is also willing to stand naked in the wind.

Delphine, your reasoning is backwards. Much to lose and advocating alternatives in medical care would instead encourage anonymity. Orac just said that.

And, my harsh critic Dr. H. is not a Board Certified pediatrician. He may have completed a residency but he is not affiliated with the largest group of pediatricians in the world as a Fellow. He has far less accountability than I.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

Because of that, I understand your fear. I will persist in denigrating unaccountable posters. They deserve it.

Would you like me to name some of those who participated in the attempt to get me fired? We'll see how brave you are if I do that.

What matters is accountability. Anonymous posters have none. That trumps everything else.

Bullshit, Dr. Jay. Many pseudonymous posters are well known under their pseudonyms and just protective of their reputation online under the pseudonym as others are under their real names.

You know nothing, Jay Snow. (Couldn't resist, although I probably should have.)

He may have completed a residency but he is not affiliated with the largest group of pediatricians in the world as a Fellow. He has far less accountability than I.

Seriously? You're going to go there? You know as well as I do that all board certification means is that you passed a written and oral test, keep up with your CME, and take a test to recertify every so often. (In the case of surgery it's ever 10 years.) But if you want to go there, then let's go there, as it speaks to "accountability." Remember, you opened the door by attacking a regular here. I'm just stepping through and following your argument to its logical conclusion.

So, Dr. Jay. You're old enough that you might have been grandfathered in as far as having to periodically recertify, aren't you? I don't know when the pediatrics boards started requiring recertification but I know some surgeons about your age or above don't have to recertify because they were grandfathered in when the recertification requirement was adopted by the American Board of Surgery.

When was the last time you recertified, Dr. Jay? Inquiring minds want to know! The answer speaks to just how accountable you are. If you've been grandfathered in, then you are in essence no longer accountable to the board, because you don't have to recertify ever again. If you don't have to recertify again, either because you're grandfathered in or because you plan on retiring before your current certification expires, you are just as "accountable" as you accuse Dr. H. of being.

No, my reasoning isn't backwards, and while I can appreciate your point, you have apparently failed to understand mine. But on the subject of your point, you actually have a lot to gain by appealing to the Maughmee Brigade and you know it. You've carved out quite a nice alterna-niche for yourself. Much to lose? Maybe. But a lot to gain, definitely.

As for "but he's not Board Certified", I'll let Dr. Hickie weigh in on that one.

I just love the internet!

I get to read a lecture on cowardice from a man who is afraid to back up his statement about anti-anti-vax folks, one who appears to be afraid to tell his patients the truth about vaccines lest it slightly reduce his income.

Let's see now, what was that old saying about pots and kettles?

Ygritte!!! As you know, those were her dying words. Don't die on me. You gloss over the threats I receive and the punishment meted out and that which could still be meted out for being publicly accountable.

David, as the saying goes, don't argue with people who buy ink by the barrel. Or begin a pissing match with . . . people who buy piss by the barrel??

Delphine--I have a lot to lose and a lot to gain, you're right. I've never said otherwise. I love my job and I love the way I practice.

You keep saying "pseudonymous posters are well known under their pseudonyms" You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means. (I too should have resisted, but I just couldn't)

Have a wonderful weekend. I'll stay in touch. (Did you get an Apple Watch, David?)

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

Surely you can tell us the last time you certified/recertified with the American Board of Pediatrics before you go, can't you? Hmmmm?

Opus, to quote from another famous movie: "You don't know shit about what I do."

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

Actually, Dr Jay may not be afraid to write about the anti-anti-vax issue. He may simply have nothing to back up his views. If so, I apologize.

Orac--As you know, I am grandfathered in. I have thought about recertifying but have too lazy, um, I mean too busy, to do it.

Opus--My opinions are just that: I have an unaware of peer-reviewed literature supporting many of them.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

Enough typos to make that incomprehensible!

Orac–As you know, I am grandfathered in. I have thought about recertifying but have been too lazy, um, I mean too busy, to do it.

Opus–My opinions are just that: I am unaware of peer-reviewed literature supporting many of them.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

No, I didn't know, but I guessed that you probably were. So when you didn't answer the question I went to the American Board of Pediatrics website and looked you up. I learned just a few minutes ago that you were grandfathered in.

What this means is that you are not "accountable" to the American Board of Pediatrics. You certified in 1981, and the ABP didn't require recertification until the group of pediatricians that first certified in 1988. Seriously. You never have to bother to recertify again if you don't want to.

He may simply have nothing to back up his views.

That goes without saying, based on what I've seen him write and say over the last decade or so.

Dr. Jay, why do you refer to him as David when his 'nym here is Orac?

I mean, if you went by CoolCashOnlyPanderingPedsGuy, I'm sure we'd all show you the proper respect and refer to you as such.

I really want to like you, Dr. Jay. I don't know why, other than your sleep advice when my kid was tiny that I've talked about before, but I do want to like you. And you just keep letting plain old anonymous MSc NGO me down. :(

Orac, your defense of cowardice and lack of accountability in online communication is eloquent.

"Accountability" to whom, Jay? You?

I would so contribute to a Kickstarter to get Dr. Jay and Orac in the same room, with all of us participating via Skype. I would buy the beer for that. Maybe even the plane tickets.

Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP@258

How about when UCLA terminates your academic appointment for invented reasons or when the head of your department at another hospital calls you aside to remind you that your hospital privileges are reviewed annually and that complaints have come in from doctors outside of the institution’s staff.

Honestly, I have no knowledge of what happened but I would hazard a guess it might be related to the whole standard of care thing we keep harping on. And therein lies the difference between you and Orac. The complaints against Orac regarding undisclosed COI's were frivilous. Complaints against you for deviating from the standard of care and spreading misinformation about vaccine safety are legitimate and provable (that said, I think that is absolutely the wrong way to go about things).

Like Orac said, credentials mean nothing if your words and actions don't back them up. In my opinion, the letters after your name don't so much improve your credibility as they hurt the AAP's.

What matters is accountability. Anonymous posters have none. That trumps everything else.

Hmmm... like Denice Walter said in #254 there are ways to identify people when they need to be held accountable. Short of legal reasons making that neccessary, the right to privacy is what actually trumps everything else. As far as what people say, it's the content that should be most important not hiw it is said or by whom. Anyways, I'd argue that the credibility your real name and credentials lend to the FUD you spread is a much worse thing than criticising someone anonymously (or pseudonymously as it were).

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP@271

Opus–My opinions are just that: I am unaware of peer-reviewed literature supporting many of them.

Arguably not the best way to practice medicine.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

Delphine, do you feel it's more respectful if I only call him, Orac? So be it! Because I respect him.

Narad--Words spoken in anger (eg "cowardice") should have a five-minute take back on them like the old AOL and new Gmail "unsend."

Delphine--I am impossible to deal with unless the audience is, as you describe, those in this room. I sound far too "reasonable" to others as I earnestly and honestly voice my objection to the vaccine schedule and not to the idea of vaccinating. I regret past mistakes when I railed against formaldehyde and other evils. That wasn't sensible. I wish for better vaccines and more manufacturing liability but, just one more time, I give vaccines every day and get vaccines myself when indicated. And, I'll buy the beer.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

Capnkrunch, some of what you said is very valid and very correct.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

No, but I think it's less passive aggressive to call him Orac, particularly in the context of a conversation about anonymity/'nyms. We know who he is. It's not hard to figure out.

Do you get a flu shot, Dr. Jay? Do you recommend them to your patients? What would you do differently with Eliza Jane Scovill, given that you've voiced regret with respect to her case on this blog?

What would you do about a 4 year old with night terrors? Asking for a friend.

So, did Dr. Jay ever respond to what "pro-vax" misinformation we should correct?

Flu shots are mandatory at two hospitals where I'm on staff unless I want to wear a mask. I get one because I have to and I consider them almost harmless. There actually could come a flu season during which they work to protect children in the hospital. I am a vector for other non-vaccinable viral illnesses, so the logic of turning pediatricians loose in the NICU as long as they have that annual shot is pretty shaky. Eliza? I'd do almost everything differently. If you'd like to email me privately, I'll be happy to talk with you.

I've found the best treatment for night terrors is to break up a child's sleep cycles: Wake them an hour before the usual hour of the night terror. Absent that predictability, just wake them once about two hours after they've fallen asleep.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

Lawrence, so much extreme pro-vaccine rhetoric is filled with scare tactics, ugly pictures of measles and made up numbers like "42,000 lives saved."

There are facts to support giving some if not all vaccines. I disagree with scheduling and the unscientific practice of everyone getting the same vaccines.

Pretending that the Great Disneyland Epidemic endangered American children is a lie.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

Chris writes (#252),

You, like the “information” in that magazine (thankfully only online, not in print anymore), are a public health danger.

MJD says,

The Autism File magazine can be a great resource of valuable information for everyone on the autism spectrum including adults.

I've been a job coach for adults with autism at "Goodwill of the Heartland" for the last two years.

The Autism File magazine will soon publish an article on how adults with autism can use supported employment to get the "right job". Thanks Autism File Magazine for your support!

What's so dangerous about that Chris?

By Michael J. Dochniak (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

Yeah, Dr. Jay, I'm clueless. I'd rather be clueless than willingly blind and deaf to reality. I know I told you my stance on suicide and why I take that stance, why it became another one of my "wars." If you don't know, there are plenty of hints on the blog. So cracking jokes about suicide kind of make me "clueless," or, rather, my responses to you.
As for the number of lives saved by vaccines, again, do your homework. Look at the number of cases we'd have if there were no vaccines (hint, it's a function of efficacy) and calculate from there the attributable death rate. It's not hard. You can do it before you head out on the town. Bonus points if you pick up some girl by showing them said napkin.
Me? I still have six hours to go before I get home and sleep for three days. When the FARC rebels bomb out power facilities where you are, it's hard to get some sleep.
Peace, y'all.

There are facts to support giving some if not all vaccines.

Please, Dr. Jay. Enlighten us! Tell us which vaccines have facts supporting the and which do not. Please provide the references you used to come to those conclusions!

Personally, for me, the various small outbreaks demonstrate that little voices are amplified on the internet, especially in echo chambers. You have a question or get a little anxious and the wrong parent sends you to NVIC. National Vaccine Information Center. Sounds innocent enough.

This is a reverse alternative thing. My daughter-in-law was a healthy early 20s woman who wanted a midwife home birth. In our area, they didn't have to be licensed. She was examined monthly, but never had many other tests. A beautiful baby girl was born dead a month early. Every child since has been with an obstetrician. Too afraid of the risk.

With your children it takes one whispered risk - "This is the autism shot" "This series causes SIDS" - and any mother in her right mind, especially if she has never seen a case of pertussis, or diphtheria, or measles complications, any mother is going to hesitate. You get enough mothers hesitating because there are people out there saying every affliction under the sun is vaccine induced and more and more of these little pockets will be created. No. The Disneyland measles outbreak wasn't terrible, but it doesn't take a genius to see the risk is there. Worse, as beloved Woo Jr pointed out, if he has teamed option of not doing something vs having to do it, he'll often avoid something just because. I know anecdote doesn't equal data, but some parents who return to vaccination say, "Well, nothing was making me, and I was on the fence, so I decided to just put it off."

Narad–Words spoken in anger (eg “cowardice”) should have a five-minute take back on them like the old AOL and new Gmail “unsend.”

My inclusion of the entire quote does not somehow negate the fact that I was asking about the "accountability" part.

*the option. Dreaded autocorrect. If only it at least knew English.

Ren--
Suicide . . . (I know, I remember, I'm sorry) As I mentioned, my ironic comment was in poor taste. I am sick and tired of all the opprobrium heaped on Dr. Bradstreet and the assumption that this should not further investigated.

The number of "lives saves" by vaccines are pure speculation and fabrication assuming no change in any other factors which influence diseases. They are misinformation and scare tactics.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

@Dr Jay - I wish someone would have recommended you after my son's father left. Fundamentalist Christian parenting advice sources are sorely lacking in the empathy required for a hurting four-year-old, and I could completely understand his sleep issues.

Too heated. Again. And I must stop now. Carry on without me or email.

Ren, I apologize again for my thoughtless remark.

By Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

Thanks for the offer but I don’t need to email you privately, Dr. Jay. I just need to know that you admit that you f&cked up. The manner in which you f&cked up is a matter of record. Maybe in hindsight, kicking Christine Maggiore in her entitled “but my kid doesn’t do daycare/eat Lunchables!” ass would have made for a good start.

And thanks for your advice on night terrors. That actually makes sense, given that from what I’ve read thus far, it’s a transition from sleep cycle thing. Right now our solution on the 1-2 nights a week this happens is to bring her into bed with us. I am in favour of bedsharing if it’s done safely but she hasn’t slept with us in 2 years and I am done with that stage of my life. And besides, I can’t get back to sleep. And it’s upsetting for my husband, though not really for Delphinette, who has no clue in the morning that she’s turned into a miniature of Linda Blair in The Exorcist at some point during the night. We’ll try that. Maybe we will get more sleep that way.

MJD says:

The Autism File magazine can be a great resource of valuable information for everyone on the autism spectrum including adults.

I’ve been a job coach for adults with autism at “Goodwill of the Heartland” for the last two years.

Some pertinent words from Dr. Crislip: "If you integrate fantasy with reality, you do not instantiate reality. If you mix cow pie with apple pie, it does not make the cow pie taste better; it makes the apple pie worse."

This, of course, applies to Autism File. Plus the world always needs more Mark Crislip.

This is a reverse alternative thing. My daughter-in-law was a healthy early 20s woman who wanted a midwife home birth. In our area, they didn’t have to be licensed. She was examined monthly, but never had many other tests. A beautiful baby girl was born dead a month early. Every child since has been with an obstetrician. Too afraid of the risk.

Smart woman, I'm glad she made the right decision, though I'm sorry she had to lose a baby to get to that point.

I briefly flirted with the idea of homebirth. We have RMs here, they are well trained, licensed, yadda. My youngest sister was born at home, delivered by my father, a GP. When I told my Mum I was considering homebirth, she said, "that is a really stupid f&cking idea" and when I pointed out that her youngest child was a homebirth, she screamed, "because we had no other alternative, you nitwit!" (she was born in the DRC and we were an hour away from a hospital and the hospital wasn't great.)

My sister was breech, though my father swore she was vertex right before labour. In any event, my mother's labour after 5 previous kids was quick, and my sister's head got stuck (head entrapment.) Not having any relaxants or tocolytics (we were lucky to have electricity some days) he made some type of incision without anesthesia (where's MI Dawn, she'd know the name of it) and my sister was safely delivered. Needless to say, it was a horrible experience all around.

Delphinette was a perfectly normal pregnancy and labour, until her cord prolapsed without warning. Two pulls of the vacuum and there she was. No problem, right? Then I started to bleed, didn't stop, nearly went into DIC, and now we can't have more kids.

So when women say to me, "I'd like to have this baby at home" I think, man, I hope you get lucky.

"Orac, your defense of cowardice and lack of accountability in online communication is eloquent."

In what way is there less accountability for people who use consistent and recognizable pseudonyms? I have no idea what Krebiozen's real name is, or Narad's, or Chris's, but they have built valuable reputations based on their comments here. How would that change if we knew their names?

Then there are people who have built bad reputations based on their comments here. In some cases they are pseudonymous and in others they've given their names and even the letters after their names. What difference does it make to know their names? Unless, of course, you mean to harass them in real life.

I will add that even if we did all use our real names, many of us might still be effectively anonymous. If one's name is so common that more than 35,000 Americans are estimated to share, using a good pseudonym may be a far better way to build a reputation on line.

Pretending that the Great Disneyland Epidemic endangered American children is a lie.

How many people need to get sick from a preventable eradicable disease with NO ANIMAL RESERVOIR before it becomes a Big Deal to you, Dr. Jay?

Seriously, you're verging on Dr. Bob territory here.

OK, Dr. Jay, would you consider me more "credible" if I started signing these posts "Vicki O'Connor"? Or would it occur to you that "Mary Jane Olsen" can as easily be a pseudonym as "Tania"?

The funny thing is that my last name is only slightly less common than "Jones." Googling me brings up almost fourteen million hits, plus there are several who live in my city. When I was getting allergy shots in my early 20s they pulled a vile of another "Chris***** MyLastName" that I caught just in time because it was not my full first name.

Even when I was trying to take graduate courses at the local university the graduate adviser found two people with my name had attended the university I graduated from (and this was the long form version that I hate of my name, not the shortened version I use).

Essentially knowing my last name will get you no where. Except hubby's last name is not so common. And knowing how there are creepy people on teh internets since one child was stalked through his Facebook page, the youngest has never used it online. She uses her grandmother's maiden name, which turns out is the same as both a medical and physics term. Apparently there is a German family had physician who had something name after him, and his son as a physicist had something else named for himself. Cool... plus it floods the Googles.

I don't know enough about measles and infants to be sure that I am remembering this correctly, but if any of these measles cases (including the Ohio outbreak among the Amish population who were scare away from vaccination by a bad reaction according to one article someone shared somewhere) happened to infect an infant under one year old, we cannot be sure they avoided SSPE for awhile? I realize it is a rare complication, but is it fair to call someone who considered the Disneyland outbreak dangerous a liar? Not only were there real risks, we aren't completely certain the worst case scenarios were entirely avoided.

Sure. We can point to countries where measles is endemic and say, "Hey! The U.S. only had a couple hundred people get measles so what's the big deal if there are communities that share a belief that vaccination is dangerous or even deadly? Our confirmed number of cases, hospitalizations and deaths are nothing compared to theirs.

It's not like they share those beliefs publicly, have anyone credible like doctors or scientists back them up, or journalists give them equal time and make them sound rational. These are just some isolated people who have little possibility of getting infected, infecting others or affecting vaccine uptake. We're all good."

Our last name is Johnson. As you all know, I am not educated and as much of a nobody as one can be. If anything, I chose Mrs Woo as irony, since I married the Mr who is so enamored with all things woo (one day I will have to tell you about his quest for a permanent magnet motor electric generator to have free electricity forever). ;-)

Too heated. Again. And I must stop now.

Yah. Enjoy the "accountability" of the waves.

Pretending that the Great Disneyland Epidemic endangered American children is a lie.

Thank G-d the minimum 136 Lanaudière cases can be hand-waved away.

Who's accountable? There's no need to deploy your plumped-up "legal credentials" again. (My last name is Trabant, BTW.)

Is SSPE just plain un-American? Do you drive a Chevrolet? How's the cooling system?

Who's pretending?

Dr. Bob Jay,

Why don't you take some time off from your practice,and visit some hospitals in China,Brazil,Philippines,Angola or any number of countries where there are high numbers of measles cases?

By Roger Kulp (not verified) on 17 Jul 2015 #permalink

Good morning, fellow minions! A brief check in because I am going to hear a good friend play in a Crosby, Still and Nash tribute band tonight at a winery. So, wine and awesome music is on my horizon. :)

Delphine - not quite sure from your description. You might mean an episiotomy, but another way to free a trapped head is to fracture the symphysis (or do both). I'm glad your father was able to delivery your sister safely, but it must have been terribly scary for both your mom and him.

Night terrors...one child had a brief bout of those. We did find that waking her up (took her to the bathroom) helped. Worse was the sleepwalking. She always had logic as to where she was going, although the multiple perambulations around our bedroom "to go to grandmother's house" were a bit disconcerting, as grandmother lived 300 miles away.

Duhrhissen's (sp?) incisions per my Mum, Dawn.

Happy Saturday, everyone!

I was shocked when I read my newspaper's monthly magazine, Inside Jersey., today. In it was a article about mandatory vaccines for children. The author invokes false balance by interviewing Sue Collins and Louise Kuo Habakus who are both New Jersey residents along with several physicians. I sent an email to the managing editor, expressing my displeasure. http://www.nj.com/inside-jersey/index.ssf/2015/07/in_new_jersey_debatin…

Mrs. Woo @302 --

As you all know, I am not educated and as much of a nobody as one can be,

There are a lot of smart somebodies here (present company maybe included on a good day) who value your contributions a lot. All the best to you! -- p

By palindrom (not verified) on 18 Jul 2015 #permalink

@palindrome - thank you. The vaccine thing, especially with our family medical issues, often makes me wish I might have gone to college and on to medical research after all. Then I could at least have the knowledge to explain why every illness under the sun is not cause by or increased as a result of vaccines. Maybe I should find an "immune system for dummies" series.

I don't know how necessary or effective my anecdotes are as a view from the woo, but hopefully sometimes it is at least a little easier. Have you ever seen the direct marketing the supplement companies start once you buy from them? Scary.

Mrs Woo,

I don’t know how necessary or effective my anecdotes are as a view from the woo, but hopefully sometimes it is at least a little easier.

I appreciate your views and reports. Thank you for them.

Have you ever seen the direct marketing the supplement companies start once you buy from them?

'Round these parts, you don't even need to buy anything, as long as they can get your address from somebody.

By Bill Price (not verified) on 18 Jul 2015 #permalink

@Delphine: close spelling - teh Googlz sys it's spelled Dührssen - which I had to copy/paste because I can't do umlauts on this keyboard easily.. I had to google it, because I'd never heard of that technique much less been taught it as a midwife. I can see why your mom never forgot it. Again, many kudos to your father for doing so and happiness all around that your sister was safely delivered and fine.

I actually love the "back to nature" people. They are so very clueless about life. I usually recommend books on sanitation (where to put your outhouse so it doesn't seep into your potable water, and also not negatively affect nature. And how to deal with the smell that even a modern composting toilet has...)

I had back to nature relatives. I will continue with modern conveniences and modern medicine, thank you. I will admit, though, my BTN relatives never scoffed at modern medicine. They vaccinated, used doctors as needed (not fake doctors like NDs). They just were "all organic", partly vegan (they ate meat - chicken, pigs, duck, geese, fish - but only animals they raised/slaughtered themselves when the said animals were too old to produce/reproduce)

@Jay Gordon (#255)

Evaluating a person’s opinions is easier when you something about their credentials. But the main issue is that one can be inaccurate, profane, rude, disrespectful and much more when anonymous.

As demonstrated by yourself, using one's name is no guarantee against rudeness, inaccuracy or being disrespectful.

So, when you are you going to be held accountable for deviating from standard of care? Oh, right, sorry. You're too busy saving lives or playing soccer or something.

Personally, I trust a person *less* when they feel the need to post their credentials prominently every time they post. It makes me wonder why they feel the need to remind everyone; makes me wonder if they've found that otherwise nobody believes they're really qualified.

So it's a lie to say the Disneyland outbreak presented any kind of risk to American children? Well, first off, I'm impressed Dr Jay was able to determine the citizenship of every child who contracted measles during the outbreak since apparently no American children had it. But more importantly, I think Dr Jay does not understand what risk means. Risk does not mean "problem already definitely happening." It means the degree to which it might, and how bad it would be.

I work in avionics. "Risk" is something we talk about a lot, because people can die if our products are bad in specific ways. We need to quantify what risks exist (there are *always* risks), how big the risks are, how likely they are to happen, and what we can do to mitigate them. There are classificiations of risk, and the classifications are different in different domains. Could a particular failure mode cause loss of mission? Loss of vehicle? Loss of life? If we're talking weapons, what is the risk you could accidentlaly destroy a hospital? Or your own base?

These risks may be extremely unlikely, but because they could involve loss of mission or loss of life, they are taken very seriously. I would rate the Disneyland outbreak similarly. There was a small but very real risk. in my industry, it would be lying to discredit that level of risk, because it's real. You'll probably be fine, since we have a lot of people fully vaccinated and so our defenses are still pretty good. But the risk was not zero, and will never be zero until measles is extinct.

Never mistake actual damage for risk, or attempt to quantify risk afterwards in terms of what actually happened. What actually happened is just one possible outcome out of many, and it is very naive to assume that is the outcome we will always get.

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 20 Jul 2015 #permalink

Evaluating a person’s opinions is easier when you something about their credentials.

That is akin to believing claims made in television advertisements because the actors making the claims were wearing white lab coats.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 20 Jul 2015 #permalink

Once again thank you Dorit Reiss.You do a yeo(wo)man’s job of educating us all!

I hope this lets me off the hook from finishing the reply that I had started to Jake's latest, but I suspect that it may not be idiosyncratic enough, and I'm too tired to find out at the moment.

Jay says...."By the way, watch my testimony again. I think I was great."

Narcissist, table for one!

By Kelly M Bray (not verified) on 21 Jul 2015 #permalink

I had hoped that Dr. Jay's comment was made in jest, but part of me believes it may be much closer to the truth (the narcissism, I mean).

Seems you already broke your promise "not to write about it anymore" that opened the long winded blather on this July 14 piece (of garbage) with your July 22 rant. Anyway glad you clarified here that you're so satisfied with yourself for the passage of medical tyranny which, as revealed in these writings, was always part of your own end game in spite of the obvious lies in past writings concerning a more reasonable position of "putting the informed" in "informed consent".

Anyway the true you is revealed… you promote medical fascism of offering all of our veins to the discretion of this or whatever example of benevolent government follows for however many injections of whatever might be declared "safe and effective".

Not sure how you sleep, but every single vaccine injury that follows by the obvious hazards of inappropriately used live virus to "eradicate" and whatever choice of the numerous neurotoxins added intentionally to every batch is on you and all the other hypocritical villains that fail to carry the usual "my body my choice" concept to the matter of patients having final say in the matter of injections, pills and any other essential personal liberties.

Okay, that's just a word salad, if I ever saw one.....

Was there a rational point in there somewhere?

By Kelly M Bray (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

I'm a bioterrorism and public health planner, Eric, and a major vaccine pusher. I sleep just fine.

Unfortunately for your ilk, science has a reality bias.