All drugs are poisons, and that's OK

There are a number of aphorisms that one imbibes over many years of medical education, especially in medical school. Some are useful; some are not; but some stick with you for reasons that even you can't figure out. For example, I still remember my first day of medical school over 30 (!) years ago. It started with an introductory session beginning at 8 AM that lasted about an hour, an "orientation," if you will, after which classes began as normal. During this orientation, members of the medical school leadership, such as deans and the chairs of certain major departments, got a chance to speak to the brand new medical students, introduce themselves, and impart a little wisdom, such as they saw it. Not surprisingly, there was the usual "rah rah" about how lucky we were to be attending the University of Michigan Medical School, how we were the elite, the 170 or so students accepted out of over 3,000 applicants, the usual blather. I imagine that it's the same sort of thing they do now in "white coat ceremonies," but back then there was no real ceremony, and, as far as I'm concerned, it was good that there wasn't. I personally find white coat ceremonies that nearly every medical school now indulges in when a new class enters the school to be just a little too reminiscent of rituals welcoming new initiates into a religion for my liking.

Be that as it may, one thing I remember from the thankfully nonexistent pomp and circumstance I experienced starting medical school. The first was one of the professors (I forget which one) telling us that, ten years after we graduated, we will have forgotten at least 75% of what we learned, but what we remembered would be the "right" 25% for our patients. He also told us that at 50% of what we learned would be out of date; so we would have to learn to learn.

Another aphorism that I distinctly remember from later in my medical school experience was delivered on the very first day of my pharmacology class. Within the first five minutes the professor told us that all medications were poisons. They all interfere with normal cellular processes in some way. The ones we use as physicians just interfere with cellular processes in a way that can be beneficial in disease, and, quoting Paracelsus, he noted that the dose makes the poison.

So, yes, all medications are poisons in that they "poison" an enzyme or other biomolecule. (Look for a quack near you to quote mine that statement by saying, for instance, "Orac says all medications are poisons" and leaving out the rest of the sentence.) I'll give you an example: Aspirin. Aspirin, as many of you know, is acetylsalicylic acid. This particular molecule irreversibly inhibits an enzyme called cyclooxygenase (COX), which is involved in the production of mediators of inflammation, among other things. The exact details aren't important, such as how aspirin inhibits the COX1 version more than COX 2 or how it does so by attaching an acetyl chemical group to the active site of the enzyme. The point is that aspirin permanently inactivates an enzyme. It poisons the cell. That's how it works. In fact, when used as a "blood thinner," aspirin permanently poisons a certain kind of cell, namely the platelet. Because a platelet doesn't have a nucleus, it can't make more COX. What it has when it's made is all that it will ever have, and if that COX is irreversibly blocked, that platelet's function is impaired for the rest of its lifespan. Again, without getting too technical, that's how aspirin works as a blood thinner. It's an antiplatelet drug.

Speaking of blood thinners, I couldn't help but think of that medical school aphorism from pharmacology class as I read a particularly brain dead article published on the website of that über-crank and quack, Mike Adams, entitled POISON PRESCRIPTION: Warfarin rat poison widely used as prescription blood thinner. (Alternate Google cache link, given that Adams seems to have some sort of weird redirect thing going on.) Oddly enough, given the inflammatory language in this article and the general level of neuron-numbing medical ignorance on display, the article actually wasn't written by Mike Adams himself. Rather, its author by someone named S. Johnson, who is apparently too embarrassed to use his or her first name:

Many drugs pushed out by Big Pharma are equivalent to rat poison, but only a handful can actually claim to be rat poison. Meet warfarin: a widely used blood thinner which, prior to being used to treat a common heart rhythm disorder called atrial fibrillation, was used as rat poison.

This is, of course, true. Warfarin and related chemicals have been used as rat poison. However, warfarin is also used as a useful drug. Thee is no inherent conflict in this concept, nor is "big pharma" trying to poison us like rats by using warfarin. Indeed, there is only a conflict between these two uses if you buy into the idea that anything pharmaceutical is evil and anything "natural" must be good and utterly forget the concept of the dose making the poison. Something that in small doses can have a useful therapeutic effect can be toxic in large doses. In small doses, warfarin inhibits coagulation by interfering with one set of proteins that promote coagulation. In high doses, not surprisingly, it causes massive bleeding. The former is useful in preventing thrombosis-related complications of various diseases, like atrial fibrillation. The latter is useful because rats will eat warfarin up until they start bleeding.

Johnson goes on:

The compound responsible for bleeding – dicumerol – was discovered in 1934. In the early 1940s, it started to be tested in people as a blood thinner. In 1945, a stronger version of dicumerol was patented and named after the Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation (WARF).

Around that same time, a close cousin of warfarin, named coumafuryl, was marketed as a rat poison under the brand names Rat-A-Way and Lurat. Coumafuryl was considered an effective rat poison for its odorless and tasteless quality, making it easier to feed to rats.

Warfarin was originally too strong to be given to people. However, it was prescribed for medical use in 1954, and increased in popularity in the early 1990s for slashing the risk of annual strokes by two-thirds, from 4.2 percent to 1.4 percent.

Patients prescribed warfarin for atrial fibrillation will likely be dependent on the rat poison for the rest of their lives. Although warfarin is widely prescribed, particularly to the elderly, few patients are aware that they are literally ingesting rat poison. Warfarin is now one of the most widely used oral anticoagulants in the United States.

Yes, it is, and with good reason. It's inexpensive, and it works. Johnson also neglects ot mention that the reason why warfarin/coumadin could be used in humans was the development of a blood test to measure how much of an anticoagulation effect it was having, which allowed for monitoring and dose adjustment and made its administration much safer.

Of course, coumadin does have a number of downsides, as Johnson notes. It requires monitoring. Bleeding complications are too common. Specific foods, particularly any food rich in vitamin K, can interfere with its effects. I know as well as anyone how tricky coumadin can be. During, any time I was on a vascular surgery rotation I'd be faced with trying to monitor and titrate patients' coumadin doses based on their blood tests. Indeed, back then, before the development of better anticoagulant drugs, it was often my job to switch patients over from intravenous heparin to oral coumadin, and patients couldn't go home until their blood values were within a therapeutic range. I know as well as anyone else that coumadin is a problematic drug, and physicians have always known it's a problematic drug. so much of what Johnson writes is not anything any physician who prescribes coumadin doesn't already know.

Next, Johnson points out that there are downsides to coumadin:

In particular, the researchers found that the rate of interracial hemorrhages associated with the use of blood thinners in the Cincinnati area increased from 0.8 cases per 100,000 people in 1998, to 4.4 cases per 100,000 people in 1999. For people 80 years of age and older, the rate jumped from 2.5 in 1998, to a shocking 45.9 in 1999.

"For many people, the benefits of preventing ischemic stroke continue to outweigh the risk of a hemorrhagic stroke. Our findings should not discourage the use of warfarin when it's appropriate. Doctors can use these findings to make sure they are weighing the risks and benefits of warfarin use for their patients. For researchers, these results may stimulate efforts to develop safer alternatives to warfarin and better treatments for people with brain hemorrhages," said lead author and neurologist Dr. Matthew L. Flaherty.

According to Dr. Michael B. Rothberg, a former associate professor at Tufts Medical Center, doctors should consider the risk of stroke versus the risk of bleeding when prescribing warfarin.

I wondered what article Johnson was citing; so I did some PubMed searches. This appears to be the report. Not surprisingly, there appears to be a bit of cherry picking going on here, because this report was from 2007, and a more recent report from 2014, which encompassed a nationwide study in Sweden, found the risk of warfarin-associated intracranial hemorrhage to be low. Still, there's no denying that warfarin increases the risk of intracranial hemorrhage. How could it not. It "thins" the blood; it decreases the blood's ability to coagulate. That's its purpose.

As noted above, whenever a physician treats a disease or condition with a drug—or any other treatment, for that matter—it's a question of balancing risks with benefits. All real physicians know that. It's what they are trained to do. It's only in the fantasy world of deluded idiots like Mike Adams, Joe Mercola, antivaccinationists, and the usual assortment of quacks and cranks that there are medications or treatments for illness that have real therapeutic effects that don't also have risks and side effects. In some cases, these side effects and risks can be serious. Even when true, that doesn't invalidate or otherwise render useless the treatment and its therapeutic effects.

Here's an example I like to give. The treatments for cancer often include a combination of surgery (sometimes radical), chemotherapy (which is definitely very toxic), and radiation (which can be toxic). Given that the cancers for which these treatments are routinely used can kill you, on balance, the use of such "poisonous" treatments can be justified. Yes, they can cause horrible toxicity. But, also yes, they save lives. On balance, the benefits usually outweigh the risks. The science and art of medicine involve determining when the benefits do and don't outweigh the risks and to proceed accordingly. It sounds straightforward, but it most definitely is not.

Of course, this being NaturalNews.com and all, there is no such thing as nuance. Demonization of pharmaceuticals is the name of the game. This becomes clear here:

Fortunately, there are alternative blood thinners out there without the dangerous side effects anchored to prescription drugs. Both cayenne peppers and vitamin C, for instance, are great for the blood vessels and heart in general. Other natural blood thinners include foods rich in salivates, a natural chemical that serves as a major ingredient for pain-relieving medications. Sources of salivates include cinnamon, turmeric, peppermint, oranges, raisins, blueberries and honey.

Here's the problem None of these "alternative blood thinners" can do what warfarin does. If they could, physicians would use them. None of these "alternative blood thinners" can "thin the blood" to anywhere near the degree or with anywhere near the potency as coumadin. Moreover, there are now other drugs designed to have similar effects as coumadin, albeit through different mechanisms, drugs that don't require the close monitoring that coumadin does. One example is Plavix and related drugs.

So why call warfarin rat poison in such a blaring headline and repeatedly in this article, as Johnson does? Yes, it's true. You got us! Coumadin/warfarin was (and still is) used as rat poison! You brilliant Mike Adams drones! We evil pharma minions can't pull one over on you!

So what if coumadin is rat poison?

All drugs are poisons, and that's OK. They couldn't work if they weren't poisons. It's the nature of the poison—and the dose—that determines their usefulness, and all drugs have risks to go along with their benefits. Damn that nuance.

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interracial hemorrhages

I am trying to work out what Johnson meant to write there before Autocorrect intervened.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

Intracranial, I suppose.

The compound responsible for bleeding – dicumerol – was discovered in 1934.

"1934"? Heaven only knows what sources Johnson is using, but every other source says 1938-1940 for the isolation and identification of the chemical (patented in 1941).

It's a perfectly natural chemical, produced by fungi in damp clover silage; you'd think a NN author would be enthusiastically in favour of dicoumarol and its derivatives.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

there are alternative blood thinners out there [...] vitamin C

Vit C, a blood thinner?
True, vitamin C is needed to make resilient blood vessels, but that's not the main problem of people in need of anti-coagulants.

Pro-tip: when your drain is clogged, wrapping duct-tape around your pipes isn't really going to help with your issue.

These m0r0ns are dangerous.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

We have evolved brains with ingrained patterns of thought that deal most easily with medium-sized things, such as other brain-carriers, and medium durations, like hours or days. Even excluding the very large and very small, the world is pretty complicated, but holding such a blinkered perspective makes it easier to expect that any problem should have a simple solution, if one can only find it. Medicines may be poisons, but they're targeted poisons that can provide benefits far outweighing the costs. And that's more complexity than a lot of people will admit into their mental models of the world.

You may be overlooking an obvious possibility, herr doktor: Johnson meant "intercranial hemorrhage," where the patient is bleeding profusely between their heads. cf. Bill O'Reilly's "I would have put a bullet right between [Al Franken's] head."

"
In particular, the researchers found that the rate of interracial hemorrhages associated with the use of blood thinners in the Cincinnati area increased from 0.8 cases per 100,000 people in 1998, to 4.4 cases per 100,000 people in 1999."

Interracial hemorrhages? I can't imagine what he really meant to say. Intracranial? Can you say Freudian slip?

By Michael Finfer, MD (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

@ hdb

I am trying to work out what Johnson meant to write there before Autocorrect intervened.

What about "salivates"? I don't think Johnson is advising its lectorat to chew gun.

Did he mean "salicylates" - as in aspirin, with extra stomach ulcers?
(my own autocorrect says yes)

By Helianthus (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

I learned from Agatha Christie novels that sodium citrate is an anticoagulant, useful for when you wish to splash around some unclotted blood and mislead investigators about the time when a murder occurred, but I will not vouch for its medicinal uses.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

I don’t think Johnson is advising its lectorat to chew gun

Now I am unsure whether to put a sinister connotation on "chew gun", or ascribe it to Autocorrect.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

Sources of salivates include cinnamon, turmeric, peppermint, oranges, raisins, blueberries and honey.

This may or may not make your mouth water.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

Ah Warfarin. What an excellent product, far better than the alternative of blood clots causing strokes. If you ever want to get the full experience of being a lab rat, get a blood clot. Going for a 'natural' less effective drug is simply not an option in the circumstances.

The main side effect was not being able to consume alcohol. Bad, but still better than death.

Seriously people like S. Johnson need an intercranial organ transplant.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

I am trying to work out what Johnson meant to write there before Autocorrect intervened.

Yeah, probably, as was pointed out, Johnson's attempt to type "intracranial" autocorrected to "interracial." OK, everyone. We all know that Johnson used "interracial" instead of "intracranial" for whatever reason. No further comment on this autocorrect faux pas is necessary. :-)

Oh, and crap. That link to Johnson's article is now going to the damned "Top ten scientific achievements of Natural News and the Health Ranger (so far)." I really do think Mike Adams has set up some sort of redirect to that article for traffic from this site. You might have to go to the link and find the Google cache. The original link:

http://www.naturalnews.com/053542_Warfarin_rat_poison_natural_alternati…

Google cache link:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:uBtv2vgyVFwJ:www.n…

(I'm posting this under a different pseud because I don't want someone out there correlating my medical information with other data from my usual comments.)

This one gets me where I live.

I'm a survivor of two cases of deep vein thrombosis with pulmonary embolism. The first one very nearly killed me, as in, my blood pressure numbers were upside-down and two close friends had to carry me into the ER because I could barely walk. The doctor said I went in there "with two feet hanging over the grave" (I told him to be frank about what was up and whether it was going to kill me).

I expect to be taking my "rat poison" every day for the rest of my life, as it appears that if I don't, I'll be up for another DVT. Since DVTs have a 30% fatality risk, colloquial statistics (yeah I know) say I don't get a third one, or if I do, I don't live to tell the tale. I'm not scared of death as such, but all factors equal, I don't like thermodynamic equilibrium, so I'd sooner stick around for a few more decades.

The side-effects are minimal and manageable, plus or minus that not being able to ride a bicycle is annoying to my ecology ethics. Reduced risk of stroke is a benefit.

So how can I say this in G-rated language? Quacky Mikey and his pernicious pals can all go straight to Hell with a capital H. That article may discourage someone from taking warfarin, for whom it would make the difference between life and death. That makes Mikey and his buddy guilty of long-distance murder. Too bad they can hide behind the 1st Amendment, and here's to the day when that will no longer be possible.

Toads --- I'm also using a different alias than usual for the same reason as you -- too easy to correlate. I too had a pulmonary embolism - mine was much less severe, though it hurt like hell for a while. Felt like I'd broken a rib!

The ER response was to diagnose carefully and then send me home with a supply of fast-acting injectable anticoagulants and a scrip for coumadin. After a brief while I ended up on Eliquis (apixaban), which is way more expensive than coumadin but which doesn't require constant monitoring. My understanding is that its main downside is that it doesn't have an instant-off switch like coumadin (just inject vitamin K and coumadin stops working instantly), though the superb haemotologist I consulted with didnt' seem to think that was a very serious issue.

I'm a little surprised you can't ride a bike, unless it's because you were so severely weakened. Are they afraid you'll hit your head and get an intercranial (or is it "interracial"?) bleed?

Incidentally, if Big Pharma is conspiring to bilk us all by overcharging for coumadin, they're going about it very strangely, since it's cheap as dirt. It should be obvious to any properly conspiracy-minded observer that they were playing the long game -- first they gave us a cheap drug that works but has drawbacks, anticipating that they would develop much more expensive alternatives later. Do your own research, sheeple!

By P. Suede Onym (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

Mikey doesn't understand that whole dose/ poison thingie:
a few days ago he posted that a food additive common in meat products is being used to kill feral hogs. Actually, he doesn't mind the feral hogs that traipse about his ranch. He probably feels for rats as well.

At any rate, the other loon @ prn instructs his enraptured audience to make up a rescue packet of supplements to always carry with them in case they might feel a heart attack or a stroke coming on:
garlic capsules, mega-doses of vitamin C, cayenne pepper, CoQ 10 etc. NEVER take an aspirin he scolds. No directions concerning doctors or hospitals either.
( I've heard this with variants involving which supplements a few times- but always with C, garlic and cayenne)

So I imagine that if someone followed his sage advice he or she would be saved and not need any medical services or else not be around long enough to sue him.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

Speaking of mega-doses of vitamin C, there is something that has been on my mind lately: I suffer from severe iron deficiency. It is so bad that I regularly have to visit the hospital so that they can give my some sort of iron "slurry" via IV.

Recently I've been reading that taking vitamin C together with iron greatly boosts the uptake of iron. I purchased some iron tablets as well as one of those vitamin C tubes of "pucks" you dissolve in water. However, a singe "puck" contains 1000% of your daily intake of Vitamin-C! That is a whole lot and I am reluctant to go through with it because of it.

As we all know, vitamin C is a favoured "wonder drug" of the alt-med movement and as such I am having a very, veeeery hard time finding any accurate information on taking so much of it... help?

I've heard rumours of kidney stones, but again nothing concrete. :/

What I am worried about is that ONE "puck" has 1000%(!) of the daily recommended dose of vitamin C!

I’ve heard rumours of kidney stones, but again nothing concrete.

A kidney stone made of concrete would probably be extra-painful.

By palindrom (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

*badum-tish!*

@ Amethyst:

My handy dandy nutrition guide says that vitamin C doesn't seem to be toxic in doses of up to 5000 mg per day although people have ingested much more for long periods of time without apparent problems
BUT it can interfere with absorption of other nutrients/ meds, alter results of certain medical tests and cause gastrointestinal distress. People who take huge doses and then cutback may get "rebound scurvy"**

One of the loons I survey thinks nothing of prescribing doses of 20000 mg per day ( or even greater- 100K- if by IV).

** how's that for a band name?

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

Too much water daily is toxic. So is too high a concentration of oxygen, especially when scuba diving. Gah. If we had too little gravity on planet Earth, we'd be drifting off. Too much and we'd be crushed. Too much sunlight can lead to skin cancer. Too little sun exposure can cause a vitamin D deficiency. I suspect many of these quacks know and understand these nuances. For them, however, it's easier and much more profitable to prey on those who don't, scaring them with the toxins gambit over and over and over.

By Chris Hickie (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

I’ve heard rumours of kidney stones, but again nothing concrete.

Reminds me of a joke one of my professors in college would tell once a year, and only after constant badgering from the class. It was called "the wolf joke"

Q: What's grey, covered in fur, made of cement and howls at the moon?

A: A wolf.

(the cement is to make the joke harder)

By Chris Hickie (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

Chris -- I'll have to remember that next time I write an exam question.

By palindrom (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

Maybe we should stop eating garlic (a popular alt remedy) because it is a Poison! (it has anti platelet activity, and the AAFP suggests patients on a high daily garlic dose stop taking it 7-10 days before surgery due to risk of bleeding complications:

http://www.aafp.org/afp/2005/0701/p103.html

An article in today's Wall St. Journal could fan the flames of the garlic woo-troversy. It highlights a vegan preschool, and mentions another that "bans what it calls "static foods" such as garlic and onions, which its director said 'aggravate the calmness of the mind'".

This is an obvious explanation for why many ancient cultures that valued garlic and onions died out, as well as why Mexico and Italy are not major world powers.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

@Amethyst: yes, vitamin C *can* help with the absorption of some oral iron preparations. As a midwife, we recommended our patients take any iron with orange juice (or other juice), and used to prescribe an iron/vit C combo for those who were anemic. Drug names are escaping me and I have to run to a MD appointment or I'd google and list.

Don't Jains ( or Sikhs?) ban garlic and onions as well?

Can't look it up now-
also things that look like blood?

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

# 23 Dangerous Bacon

It highlights a vegan preschool, and mentions another that “bans what it calls “static foods” such as garlic and onions, which its director said ‘aggravate the calmness of the mind'”.

I would have thougth one would want the little rugrats to be excited and curous about the world around them. Still it reduces the stress on staff if the kids are a bit zombie-like.

This is an obvious explanation for why many ancient cultures that valued garlic and onions died out, as well as why Mexico and Italy are not major world powers.

If I remember the cook-book I was reading last night, China seems to use a lot of garlic and seems to be a world power again. Maybe the chilis and soy sauce counteracts the garlic effect?

BTW for those interested in Chinese cooking--and did not grow up in China--I highly recommend the book "Every Grain" of Rice by Fuchsia Dunlop.

By jrkrideau (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

My mom had double knee replacement several years ago then experienced a DVT and pulmonary embolism. She will be on Coumadin for life. My dad recently had his aortic valve replaced. He will also be on Coumadin for life. I am grateful for their lives and for the lifesaving effects of these drugs. Mikey and crew can go and smoke it.
Amethyst - I thought that excess vitamin C is quickly eliminated in the urine, and that it is fairly non-toxic. So you should be OK, taking the doses as long as you don't go crazy.

Let's not forget the Coumadin/coumarin OMG WORDS SO SIMILAR issue, which stops those of us in the U.S. from using delicious tonka beans and cheap Mexican "vanilla extract."

But it's from a PLANT how could it be DANGEROUS (*cough*)

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

The discussion of garlic and onions recalls a fine memory, where I was invited to an Iranian family's table.
The appetizer was raw garlic and onions, to which I dug in as eagerly as the rest, to their surprise. This American has a love of spicy foods, rather than our reputation for bland foods. :)
I'd enjoy another appetizer like that again, but it might result in a divorce. ;)
No medicinal claims were made, it was a companionable meeting of the family of a friend and neighbor.

But, poisons... Garlic and onion are lethal to cats, chocolate is lethal to dogs, we oddly then concern ourselves with the welfare of rats.
Or something. As long as that something is sold by the one issuing the "warning".
I'm reminded that I've had my dosage of really nasty poisons reduced, in the case of metoprolol, from 300 mg to 200 mg and likely soon, to 100 mg per day. That's due to the methimazole being raised from 20 mg twice a day to 25 mg once, 20 mg the second dose.
For those not knowing, the latter is an anti-thyroid hormone drug, it prevents thyroid hormones from being made. Great in those with hypothyroid, not great to those with healthy thyroids, it'd be a poison eventually.
Metoprolol is a beta blocker, 300 mg is a rather strong dose, toxic as all get out to a healthy human that isn't hypertensive! Total poison there and beta blockade can be a life threatening emergency. But, the dose makes the poison, otherwise it's medicine.

One person was quite relieved to learn that when prescribed Lasix (furosemide) for heart failure, that it was also used in race horses to make them supposedly run faster, but the person had to stay away from the salt lick. Became the afternoon tea conversation for anyone willing to listen. Never saw veterinary applications of the whole host of drugs used on animals presented by Mikey. Should be good for a firestorm or did it happen and I missed it?.

Then there was the joke birthday gift of a box of Warfarin bought at the garden center to confirm to the recipient what the doctor truly thought of his patient with coumadin. The recipient fortunately found it hilarious, as did the prescribing physician when it was brought up.

Overheard at introduction to pharmacology " one as*burn is the same as the next as*burn" done in the sort of appropriate drawl.

By Ross Miles (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

Well, doctor and I did discuss the relative merits of using rat poison, erm, anticoagulants for my atrial flutter.
Fortunately, that seems to be rapidly resolving as my BP and pulse remain within human limits and hopefully, the moderate LVH should resolve as well.

Damn! I'm fresh out of dog poison, aka chocolate! I'll have to run off to the store and get some.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Ross Miles (not verified)

Round here, the warfarin-rat poison connection is well known by people taking it, and, apart from offering the opportunity for a bit of ribbing, is accepted as perfectly in order. Often it's been the prescribing doctor who tells them, jokingly. No need to be furtive about it.

I've been told that what makes warfarin effective as rat poison is that it's fairly slow-acting, so the critters go away after ingesting and die somewhere else. Rats are not that dumb, and avoid eating where there's dead rats decaying, so laying out quick-acting poison would only kill one rat.

By Peter Dugdale (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

Don’t Jains ( or Sikhs?) ban garlic and onions as well?

Vaishnavas do (as well as mushrooms). They're considered tamasic foods.

Without garlic and onions, pasta sauce is merely tomatoes and basil. ;)

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Narad (not verified)

I find that duel therapy 9.5 mg/kg ACA + 181 mg/kg EToH to be a superior blood thinning elixir.

It has the additional efficacy of increasing absorbtion of the EToH while decreasing it's metabolism so that one gets a grin again and again. Also, it lets any excess bad blood harmlessly spew out through one's jejunum.

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%86%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B…
This woman was diagnosed in 1998 with stage IV breast cancer and as far as I could get, she discovered in the gardening shop that her chemo drug had been used also as pesticide (active component was the same, I think) and she is still very much alive. Actually she started writing during the period of chemo. She could have chosen a quack, because the first oncologist she met had been very rude, but luckily she did not, and she is outspoken advocate for real medicine.

By Ieva Zagante (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

Chinese Buddhists don't eat garlic, either. And maybe onions, I can't recall.

Damn! I’m fresh out of dog poison, aka chocolate! I’ll have to run off to the store and get some.

One of our dogs is a fiend for chocolate, to the point where we no longer eat it in her presence. The drooling is beyond the pale.

Peter @ #33
Rats also can't vomit, so even if they feel awful after eating something they are stuck with it. It's amazing how fast they learn to avoid the bait, even if the rat unlucky enough to ingest the warfarin moves away from the bait. Rats ain't stupid.

It just occurred to me: I hope the Food Babe does not decide to branch out into medicines. Mikey is bad enough but she a) commands a very large audience, b) is totally clueless about silly things like chemistry and biology and c) apparently likes to sell things.

She could kill a lot of people in no time.

By jrkrideau (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

Without garlic and onions, pasta sauce is merely tomatoes and basil.

The Vaishnava substitute is asafoetida. I doubt that it would play well in Italian cuisine, though.

Heck, the warfarin-rat poison connection was referenced on an episode of Arrow a couple of years ago. It's hardly an unknown thing. Granted, the person making the connection on the show (and grabbing the poison to act as an emergency blood thinner) was a chemist and forensic scientist named Barry Allen...

By Jenora Feuer (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

Of course, Gilbert must have meant ~1700 mg/kg of EToH -- The stated low value was obviously not efficatious; It's possible he lives in a land that thinks a couple drinks warrants a moving violation and arrest... Sux to be him.

By Mitzi Dupree (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

@ Amethyst #16

Please don't take this as a medical advice, but as a pharmacologist, I can tell you that Vitamin C is perhaps the least toxic vitamin you can think of, and you can't really overdose it. It is not stored, readily excreted in the urine. 10X the daily recommended intake (that is the minimum recommended) it not that much. Generally, you take greater care with liposoluble vitamins like A, D, E, K. Some group B vitamins have reversible side effects. In your case, I'd worry more about the iron than Vitamine C overdose.

It's probably one reason the quacks feel safe about I.V. vitamin C. Possible side effects are more related to the procedure than the compound itself (unless it is tainted). It is remarkable in its almost complete lack of toxicity.

Friend of mines elderly mother always tells us she's on rat poison when we visit, she thinks it's hilarious.

Peter Dugdale, I was taught that the need for rats to go and die elsewhere is an important component of any rat poison for the reason you cite in the biodeterioration class I took. As the person taking it was part of a unit that reseached such things I think it's very likely to be true

As I always like to do, I checked the NN store for the recommended natural alternatives. Mike sells cayenne tincture, vitamin C, tumeric tincture and honey. Cinnamon, peppermint, orange (peels) and blueberries are ingredients of various supplements and organic snacks. No raisins surprisingly, but he does sell grape seeds.

Never forget, Mike Adams is always in it for profit.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

Zen Buddhist, shojin, cooking doesn't use garlic or onions (or shallots, leeks, and similar vegetables) - one of my Zen cookbooks says that strong-smelling vegetables such as these were "believed to promote sexual energy" and were therefore forbidden to monks. Seems to me like a good reason to eat them, but perhaps not in a monastery.

By Derek Freyberg (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

"It’s probably one reason the quacks feel safe about I.V. vitamin C. Possible side effects are more related to the procedure than the compound itself (unless it is tainted). It is remarkable in its almost complete lack of toxicity."

As with homeopathy. Their toxicity is only due to the patient using these rather than actual medicine, as Orac has written about many times.

@45 "It is not stored, readily excreted in the urine."

That's what I thought, so how on earth can mega-dosing Vitamin C be at all beneficial when the amounts your body doesn't need are going to be excreted away?

By Selena Wolf (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

rs@49: Actually, I think you'll find homeopathy is extremely neurotoxic, rapidly and irreparably destroying all capacity for rational thought within those who imbibe it. Heck, even just being exposed to homeopathic blather for any length of time is enough to knock a good 20-40 points of one's own IQ. Nasty, nasty corrosive stuff.

I drove up 101 to the north end of the Olympic Peninsula this last weekend (went up to Hurricane Ridge). As I was driving along 101 there was sign saying, this way to Natural Health We have Hydrogen Water.

I am still trying to figure out what hydrogen water may be. I have a minor in physics/chemistry and can't figure it out. Is a third hydrogen somehow added to the water molecule, is hydrogen bubbled through water?

Can anyone define this substance.

@35 and 36,

There was a funny short film called "Too Much Oregano" that won a prize. At Cannes about the time our host was doing his undergrad work at Ym
Michigan.
Other involves a back and forth argument between a restaurant reviewer and the chef about the spaghetti sauce.

Regrettably it doesn't seem to be available for online viewing.

Our favorite food comment joke is "needs more garlic."

By squirrelelite (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

Of course, Gilbert must have meant ~1700 mg/kg of EToH

Of course, Mitzi Dupree #44; You queen of the ping pong, you. How's it working out with the ex and the self-medicating kids and all? Still jaundiced?

Oh how I wish the either french canadian or south african PgP would pop in and whoop me over the head with her metaphysical, bigoted bo stick -- High, the memory carried on....

Regarding Vitamin C, the only potential problems I remember hearing about it involve somebody doing megadoses for long periods of time and then stopping. Normally your body is extremely efficient at capturing (and re-capturing) Vitamin C and moving it around (it has to be since we don't produce it like most animals); but when you're on megadoses your body can just rely on diffusion and not bother with being too careful. The result is that if you stop taking megadoses cold turkey it can take some time for your body to stabilize its Vitamin C handling again.

Granted, this is half-remembered from years ago, so take that for what it's worth.

By Jenora Feuer (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

First things first: an interracial hemorrhage would be the result of a knife fight between me and Beautiful Rockin' Wife.
Second, a couple of squares of dark chocolate or a grape or two would be a undersized snack for me but would be enough to kill Old Rockin' Dog (A tragedy, there can never be too many cairn terriers in the world.).
Third, I had my mitral and aortic valves replaced in a single surgery, and it was precisely because of coumadin that I opted for bovine valves, well, that and I would go insane listening to two ball and cage valves clicking away for the rest of my life. Young Rockin' Daughter rocks the vegan thing hard but couldn't begrudge me anything as basic as my life. She finds solace in that my next set of valves will likely be printed instead of biological. Or does anyone know if there is a plant-based substitute for an aortic valve, maybe something to do with xylem, or phloem, or Venus flytraps? Or maybe Venous flytraps?

By Old Rockin' Dave (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

@ Rich: beats me. Hope some one knows.

For the past couple of years I've seen a product in grocery stores called "Waatah." It's water with oxygen injected into it.

I haven't bought a bottle to see if it is in fact hydrogen peroxide. Since it's incredibly toxic when ingested, I have to question the veracity of this company's claims.

WAY too much vitamin C can give you the runs, which a visiting friend learned after thinking my Halls vit. C drops would be good for a sore throat and going through the whole bag - I got home and she said "great, a cold AND g.i. illness at once" and I quickly went to get a bag of Ricola. It is very short term, just stop the excess C. I doubt a single puck will do that to ya, though, Amethyst.

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

@panacea - if you search for "oxygen water" you will find many brands. As well as debunking.

Now I want to pit the oxygen water and hydrogen water enthusiasts against each other. If we don't get a nice explosion from the reaction I will be disappointed but not surprised...

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

Now, I have nitrogen-oxygen water.
There's an aerator on every tap. :)

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Emma Crew (not verified)

A well conceived article, Orac. No, really.

By Eddie Unwind (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

Wzrd1 -- You mean the air in your house is mostly nitrogen? Everyone knows nitrogen is worthless, and the air in any decent house should be 100% life-giving oxygen.

I'd demand a refund from the real estate agent, and tell him or her that Food Babe sent you. And maybe Gus Grissom.

By palindrom (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

Palindrom - No thanks, I have no desire to emulate Apollo 1 with a pure O2 fed fire, thank you. :)
I'll stick with the lower test version of air naturally found on this planet. I'll reserve Premium for medical emergencies and welding.
Besides, I'd suffer from a new form of oxidative stress when dinner burned in a high O2 atmosphere and I'm baking bread right now, burning it would upset me. ;)

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by palindrom (not verified)

P. Suede Onym @ 14:

For one thing, serious physical exertion for any length of time, or riding a bike even a mile, and I get blood in my urine. Annoying but manageable side-effect (unless someone here knows otherwise) since I can avoid the types of activity that cause it.

For another, any accident on a 2-wheeled vehicle that causes a whole-body impact (hitting the street) or head impact (even with helmet) = an ambulance ride to the ER to check for bleeding, which I can't afford. And if there's one thing in my life that I seek to protect above all others, it's the chunk of gray stuff between my ears, so yeah fear of intracranial bleeding. Thus no electric scooters either. However I have my work life mostly on telecommuting, and my gasoline consumption is about 1/4 of average for Americans, including both work and personal trips. (Climate denialism is the ultimate deadly quackery, so we all need to do what we can to reduce our impacts.)

Lucky you getting discharged quickly with injectable blood thinners. My first one cost me ten days in the ICU including three days of morphine (it didn't get me high and the only "withdrawal symptom" was the end of the constipation) and a week wearing a pressurized breathing mask ("hey do I look like an Air Force pilot?";-)

The second one got me an overnight in regular inpatient and then a 2-week supply of injectable Lovenox ("grab the flab and give yourself a jab";-) At which point I decided that if I went through life with only one inexpensive prescription to take every day, that would be OK, and all the better if it was a pill rather than a needle.

As for Evil Big Pharma, inexpensive lifesaving meds are part of Teh Conspiracy. Surely you know about Teh Conspiracy, to get us all believing in science-based medicine, so we won't buy homeoquack woo-water or ask for magical hand-waving over our hospital beds. Think of all the well-meaning fuzzbrains we're putting out of a job that way! Oh the humanity!

Mitzi Dupree: It’s possible he lives in a land that thinks a couple drinks warrants a moving violation and arrest… Sux to be him.
From what I've seen of Gilbert, his med of choice is a lot more potent than alcohol, though his general personality does not improve, no matter what substance he ingests. I suspect alcohol, marijuana and lsd which really ought not to be mixed. (Do your neurons a favor, one mind-altering substance per ingestion!)
As far as moving violations go, it depends on the drink, weight, and tolerance of the person. I've figured out a fairly surefire way to avoid tickets- it's called a bus.

Gilly boy: -1- - that's a middle finger. Sit and spin. It's kind of cute, really, how wrong you are about me. If you could find somewhere else to be stupid, that'd be great.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

Michael Finfer, MD
Edison, NJ April 7, 2016”
In particular, the researchers found that the rate of interracial hemorrhages associated with the use of blood thinners in the Cincinnati area increased from 0.8 cases per 100,000 people in 1998, to 4.4 cases per 100,000 people in 1999.”

Interracial hemorrhages? I can’t imagine what he really meant to say. Intracranial? Can you say Freudian slip?

TO: Michael Finfer, M.D. and Orac: wow! and both of you are MD.'s ? eh?
Differences in Stroke Between White, Hispanic, and Native ...
stroke.ahajournals.org/content/29/1/29.full

Differences in Stroke Between White, Hispanic, and Native American Patients The Barrow Neurological Institute Stroke Database

Images for interracial hemorrhages
search.aol.com/aol/image
These images contain adult content.

See more images for interracial hemorrhages

Toads -- Ouch, sounds like you have poor insurance and probably not the best of care (on top of having a really awful PE the first time, unlike the much less destructive one I had).

I am (emphatically) not a doctor -- well, not a real doctor, merely a PhD -- but blood in the urine from modest exercise sounds like it's worth looking into. Hopefully you're getting your coagulation checked regularly, since that's pretty much required for Coumadin (that's the downside. It's cheap, but it's high-maintenance).

Also, two PEs without provocation is, well, worrying. Did they ever do a thromobosis screen to see if they can figure out why these happen to you? I got one that uncovered a mutation that elevates my risk by a factor of several, making it all that much less bizarre.

By P. Suede Onym (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

Gah! Perfect example of a little information being touted as absolute knowledge, and being absolutely dangerous.
Which of course, is the MO of Mikey and his ilk. As well as the 'buy my stuff'.

You know, I used to use a nitroglycerin spray under my tongue to control high blood pressure. Nitroglycerin! Big Evil Pharma had me taking dynamite! /sarcasm

By Anonymous Coward (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

Hydrogen water is obviously generated by joining atomic hydrogen into H2 in the presence of oxygen, which creates pure organic GMO-free free-range water that is cage- and cruelty free, without growth hormones or antibiotics, and free of BPA.

By Old Rockin' Dave (not verified) on 07 Apr 2016 #permalink

Opposed to dihydrogen monoxide which can be wicked deadly.

How do you find the time to write so many articles and do the doctor thing?

Because as a box of blinking lights, Orac suffers from none of the biological needs and wants of puny, fleshy human doctors.

Squirrelelite @54

Our favorite food comment joke is “needs more garlic.”

Crocodile Dundee?

We use that one a lot in as close to an Australian accent as 2 folk from the north east of England can manage (with apologies to Chris Preston and any other resident Ozzies).

@murmur, "needs more garlic" is a second joke, the only older joke is, "needs more barley".
The background on the barley joke was, early in our marriage, I wanted chicken stew and my wife wanted to make chicken soup. So, "It needs more barley", with barley subsequently added and hence, the soup turned into chicken barley stew.
I'm still infamous for using an entire onion of garlic in a batch of pasta sauce. That said, I make my sauce in batches of two gallons or so. The rest are canned in the pressure cooker or frozen (around a 30 - 70 mix or all canned, depending upon the season).

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 08 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Murmur (not verified)

S. Johnson? There’s a disqus profile which uses that name:

https://disqus.com/by/disqus_sRBOQuvlcQ/comments/

They frequently post on a site called greenmedinfo.com, whose domain should self-explanatory.

If it’s not the same S. Johnson, then it’s a great philosophical doppelgänger. As expected, he’s anti-vaccine (according to some choice quotes from his profile):

"That does not mean that he is wrong. Natural immunity has been shown over and over to be superior to vaccination (artificial immunity). http://articles.mercola.com/si…”

"You are missing the point. How can you even quantify how many people did not die because of the vaccine??? There is no measurement, nor is there one showing how many people were killed or maimed by vaccines."

"Jeesh. People need to take care of themselves. Take plenty of vitamin C (2000 Mg / day), zinc, magnesium, iodine and vitamin D3. Your immune system will fight off just about anything if you give it what it needs. I haven't had the Flu in over 10 years and never get "The Shot". The worst I've had is a slight cold that lasted a couple days."

-Knows the true cure for Ebola and is a population reduction conspiracy fan:

"Cure for Ebola = High doses of Vitamin C or Intravenous Vitamin C. It's been known for years but is suppressed because the powers that be want less population."

-A chemtrail fan:

"There are whistle blowers and pictures of the inside of the Chemtrail planes. Just google it. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=chemtrail...
There are also patents explaining the process. Now... not all planes that look equipped to spray are spraying but there have been whistle blowers and the patents do exist."

-& is apparently a bitter middle aged man who believes that us hormonal women can flip like a switch at any moment (better watch out):

"Women can flip a switch. 2/3rd's of divorces are initiated by Women in the U.S. Women are heavily influenced by society and men tend to be severely hurt emotionally while women mask and hide it. I speak from experience. 15 years of blissful marriage 90% of the time and one day, flip a switch. She even said that it was like a switch being flipped from 1 argument that lasted 20 minutes.”

"Women hold major grudges and never forget a mans mistakes. Ladies, you meed serious mental help. Stop treating men like Sh#t. We are not a meal ticket for you."

"Going that route now. Snipped years ago and now 41 and Separated and sure to be divorced. My wife shut off emotionally (Hormones?). May as well try for all that tail I didn't get in our 20 years together."

By Anonymous (not verified) on 08 Apr 2016 #permalink

If it’s not the same S. Johnson, then it’s a great philosophical doppelgänger.
He sounds nice.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 08 Apr 2016 #permalink

I'm feeling quite smug now as I've known that Warfarin is both a blood thinner and rat poison for around 30 years. Can't remember how that came up at school but clearly the UK education system is well ahead of the US in teaching children about effective and ineffective poisoning.

Incidentally, S. Johnson also seems to have plagiarised an article from askdrlouise.com who also seems a fairly cranky character but in a slightly more scientific way. I can't decide if that's better or worse.

Ah, Paracelsus. My favorite alchemist.

Yep, he knew all about "the dose makes the poison." So much, in fact, he needed to prove it to everyone. So he and his brother alchemists decreed that alcohol was the Elixir of Life. He started drinking heavily, and subsequently died of liver disease.

Gee, an alcoholic who dies of liver disease. Too high of a dose, man.

By Marry Me, Mindy (not verified) on 08 Apr 2016 #permalink

“Women can flip a switch. 2/3rd’s of divorces are initiated by Women in the U.S. Women are heavily influenced by society and men tend to be severely hurt emotionally while women mask and hide it. I speak from experience. 15 years of blissful marriage 90% of the time and one day, flip a switch. She even said that it was like a switch being flipped from 1 argument that lasted 20 minutes.”

“Women hold major grudges and never forget a mans mistakes. Ladies, you meed serious mental help. Stop treating men like Sh#t. We are not a meal ticket for you.”

“Going that route now. Snipped years ago and now 41 and Separated and sure to be divorced. My wife shut off emotionally (Hormones?). May as well try for all that tail I didn’t get in our 20 years together.”

Does he have an online dating profile? Asking for a friend.

That Gilbert is a scoundrel, Politicalguineapig.

It was 1996 when my father, a cop, cited him for driving on a section of interstate they had closed to practice "unconventional ticketing tactics". Well he blurted out in court that he was going to "pimp out your son to pay for this!"

He did just that; He pimped out my douchebag brother and he pimped me out as well. I learned...stuff...about myself that I had not ever even dreamed of before; The least of which, age of consent laws are stupid. It's been a love/hate relationship between us ever since.

After Joey manned up and quit peeing on people, they sort of bonded as they're both weed feinds. Daddy didn't look at me 'that way' anymore, like it was my fault or something that I got pimped. My father accidentally blew off his pecker in the mens courthouse restroom and subsequently O.D.'d on Tylenol as he was adamant against any kinds of mind altering drugs; especially if it would cause one to be in a state of relaxation or relieve pain -- He spent his whole career depriving others of such; He was no hypocrite.

Love him and hate him, he gives me stuff, ya know?

By Mitzi Dupree (not verified) on 08 Apr 2016 #permalink

He knows how to broaden one's horizons, Politicalguineapig. Even if they're too trashed to remember just how they got broadened.

By Mitzi Dupree (not verified) on 08 Apr 2016 #permalink

@Delphine at 79: Does he have an online dating profile? Asking for a friend. With friends like you... :p

@MI Dawn, some friends are extremely considerate. They even save one the trouble of going out to meet new enemies, fulfilling the duties themselves. ;)

-Once the pin is pulled, Mr Grenade is no longer your friend.
Anonymous

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 08 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by MI Dawn (not verified)

Mitzi Dupree: Ok, you're obviously Gilly-boy's sock puppet, so don't talk to me again. I'm glad you are far away from me, as I think people in your vicinity are in danger of losing brain cells from the contagious stupid. Also, dude, I could totally take you.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 08 Apr 2016 #permalink

Thanks for all the advice, people. I decided to give it a go.

Let the placebo-effect commence!

"'Fortunately, there are alternative blood thinners out there without the dangerous side effects anchored to prescription drugs.'"
Um...that doesn't make any sense. It's worth noting that if any substance (cinnamon, sunlight, or snake oil) could thin the blood, it too would have the risk of increased bleeding. As Orac says, how could it not? It is the sine qua non of being a blood-thinner!

By Dr. Chim Richalds (not verified) on 09 Apr 2016 #permalink

Well, Doc, there is always magic, mysticism and mayhem or something.
Or there's the, "Oh, it's natural and it can't hurt you". To the latter crowd, I'd happily provide them with a fine Jimson weed tea and discuss it in detail. Other herbs might harm them, what I'd make wouldn't be well controlled dose wise, but properly diluted to only cause mild atropinization.

I have a kitchen cabinet full of different herbal teas. They're not there as any form of medication, they're there for their taste. :)
If I need medicine, I see my doctor.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 09 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Dr. Chim Richalds (not verified)

Is S. Johnson's first name Bloody?

By Yerushalmi (not verified) on 10 Apr 2016 #permalink

but properly diluted to only cause mild atropinization.

You never know when you might be accidently exposed to nerve gas, it's always wise to have some atropine on hand as an antidote.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 10 Apr 2016 #permalink

Yeah, but without pralidoxime chloride, isn't the point rather moot? :/
Although, I do admit, there is some question about efficacy of pralidoxime chloride, it should still unbind non-central nerve junction acetylcholinesterase.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 10 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by herr doktor bimler (not verified)

I had surgery, chemo and radiation for my Stage 4 cancer, and I am glad to say, am living to tell about it.

I (yeah!) just had my port removed and I joked every time they flushed it with Heparin that they were giving me rat poison. No one told me until a year or so later that Heparin != Warfarin. Oops.

@Anonymous Coward, true enough. I recall several case reports each year of fitness types dying from water intoxication.
They learn of the wonders of hydration, but fail to continue studying the matter and learn of the perils of water intoxication.
It's just another object lesson of moderation in all things is good, excess in anything can be lethal.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 16 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Anonymous Coward (not verified)

I calculated that I would need 6930g of water to poison myself to extinction...

Alain

addendum: and no, I don't have any desire to poison myself to any of that degree.

Al

Half that weight in good dark chocolate would take out a good sized child or a smallish lady. It's better to go out doing something you love!

By Mama-Don't-Sleep (not verified) on 17 Apr 2016 #permalink

addendum: and no, I don’t have any desire to poison myself to any of that degree.
Indeed. One more reason to stick to beer.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 17 Apr 2016 #permalink

H2O must be diluted before drinking.

By Daniel Corcos (not verified) on 17 Apr 2016 #permalink

Absolutely right, Daniel Corcos.
I prefer to dilute my H2O with ETOH. ;)

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 17 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Daniel Corcos (not verified)

Best of luck!

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 17 Apr 2016 #permalink

HDB,

Thanks you very much. I've mulled over the plan (and several other) for some years but now's the time I give myself a solid jackboot in the *ss and do it :)

Alain

I prefer to dilute my H2O with ETOH.

Precisely, Wzrd1 #100. There is no 'ask your doctor if' for the condition of having too much blood in ones' alcohol stream. The mind boggles.

Fuck PgP,
Feel the Bern,
9-11 was an inside job.

9-11 was an inside job.

Umm...Okay, if it float your boat. Want some more inside job, vote for Trump :D

Al

Alain, I've learned to just let the assholes believe what they want. They won't even listen to an explosive demolition expert about what is required for controlled demolition of structures, their delusion is quite fixed.
Just another spectacular case of Kruger-Dunning.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 17 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Alain (not verified)

Wzrd1,

Don't worry, my comment was sarcasm & mildly dark humor which I do a hell of a lot on daily basis. I, basically, never go against human nature; it open up too many cans of worm otherwise. I was only having fun.

Al

Al, dark humor is common in ED personnel and EMS. :)
Add the military side, my humor is quite dark.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 17 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Alain (not verified)

Wzrd1,

I know, these professions take a friggen huge toll on the mental well-being of these professionals (which I include you). I think I'd love your humor if I were to pay you a beer in real life :)

Alain

I’ve mulled over the plan (and several other) for some years but now’s the time I give myself a solid jackboot in the *ss and do it

Unsolicited advice: Don't go for the one-egg, one-basket approach. I'm reminded of a Kazakh prodigy for whom I did some happy Englishifying. It's not really parallel, but he wound up going for the UMass Boston Navitas program (financial aid, I have no idea about).

Gil: Bernie doesn't want morons like you. Vote for Trump or Jesse Ventura, as they are closer to your mental capacity and Trump, like you, supports rape and incest. And fuck you too.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 17 Apr 2016 #permalink

"They won’t even listen to an explosive demolition expert"

Doh k, Wzrd1 #106

...This is controlled demolition.

You're sure?

Absolutely, it's been imploded. This was a hired job, performed by a team of experts.

-- Danny Jowenko, a demolitions expert

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMdLVw3AsV4#t=21

July 16, 2011

Danny Jowenko, one of world's leading building demolition experts, was killed in a one-car accident last week when his car slammed into a tree. Jowenko received international attention as the expert who unequivocally described the collapse of Building 7 at the World Trade Center on 911 as a "demolition." Jowenko made the judgment before he knew it was WTC7 he was watching on the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtbRd6gzFWk

Pull it

-- Larry Silverstein, owner
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p34XrI2Fm6I

9/11: A Conspiracy Theory
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuC_4mGTs98

WTC7 won't go away.

""like you, supports rape and incest.

Thx, PgP #111. I'd not realized that I supported*(**) those things until now; before feeling compelled to cringe low before the awesome awareness of eclectic enlightened edification you emetically eminate out of your esteemed emissarial role.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_Tennent#Emissarial_role

*Incest is a family affair -- No place for government interdictions.

**Parker Brothers' Incest™: A Game For the Whole Family might deserve a little minarchian Randinan love, only if one supports the TPP and Steve and Jills' DMCA takedown request.

WTC7 won’t go away.

It already did. It caught fire, burned down, fell down, and the rubble was carted away.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 18 Apr 2016 #permalink

"Danny Jowenko, one of world’s leading building demolition experts, was killed in a one-car accident last week when his car slammed into a tree."

Because people never get killed in one-car accidents, right?

And because a conspiracy so powerful as to destroy the World Trade Center and damage the Pentagon would totally wait ten years to off someone who isn't even laying low, right?

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 18 Apr 2016 #permalink

So, 2/3 of the structural supports were removed in secret, nobody noticed the immense fleet of dump trucks with the remnants of the support columns, nobody noticed the noise of removing those concrete and rebar columns and thermite burns sideways because of antigravity.
Gotya. Antigravity and magic.

WTC7 went away, in many, many dump trucks. My cousin died in the south tower, so fuck you with a 40mm bore brush.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 18 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Calli Arcale (not verified)

""It already did. It caught fire, burned down, fell down, and the rubble was carted away.

Suppose some father's kid, let us say 'Robin' just for shits and giggles, was deadified, drained, dressed, dug a hole, dropped in, and dirged -- One's own mental health prudence says 'forget about it'.

Calli Arcale: And because a conspiracy so powerful as to destroy the World Trade Center and damage the Pentagon would totally wait ten years to off someone who isn’t even laying low, right?

Personally, I think Dick Cheney would be a lot more creative. What always bugs me about 9/11 conspiracy theories is that these people seem to have forgotten one very important thing- Bush was one of the stupidest presidents we ever had. One of my great grand-dad's favorite sayings was 'never ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence.' or more bluntly, 'there are many fools in the world.'

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 18 Apr 2016 #permalink

one of world’s leading building demolition experts

So famous an authority that no-one the Intertubes had never heard of him prior to 9/11 truther conspiracies.

Jowenko received international attention as the expert who unequivocally described the collapse of Building 7 at the World Trade Center on 911 as a “demolition.”

Oh joy, even the conspiracy addicts admit that the guy was unknown, and that they have appointed him as The Expert precisely because he said what they wanted to hear.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 18 Apr 2016 #permalink

o.k. herr doktor bimler; It was fires. Did I leave the stove on? Because I'd hate for a skyscraper to come down on thousands of people because of my burnt brisket -- So easy.. Maybe that's why it was deemed unsafe to release the 911 Omission Report's building 7 findings.

Ohh. Also, no concrete and steel skyskrapers ever fell due to fires before 9/11 or since 9/11... Perhaps it was a biblical sign of something that they did so??? Do that funky hand job wave...

Since 9/11, how many jet aircraft have slammed into concrete and steel buildings?
Do you even know what jet fuel is? High grade kerosene, which atomized and ignited, thereby igniting crushed desks and paperwork.
No, it's all magic and bullshit, can't be what the report fucking said, it's really a dismantled building, secretly dismantled at that, with the rubbish being teleported away from the site.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 18 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Gilbert (not verified)

And minarets can be brought down by what?? Some towel-headed broad that left a candle on, that's what. I'll remember that next time I need to get away clean with dropping somebody's rock-hard, phallic tower.

""my god, it's full of structual fail" -- 9/11 ommission report

Unsolicited advice: Don’t go for the one-egg, one-basket approach. I’m reminded of a Kazakh prodigy for whom I did some happy Englishifying. It’s not really parallel, but he wound up going for the UMass Boston Navitas program (financial aid, I have no idea about).

Narad,

I'm not sure your statement compute well enough for me to understand it but from what I understand, I can explain that the Latin alphabet don't contain enough letter for me to cover all of the plans I think about or dream of but that said, I'm working on the probability of success for all of them.

Alain

the Latin alphabet don’t contain enough letter for me to cover all of the plans I think about or dream of

Perhaps you would like to borrow the Cyrillic alphabet?

Gilly-boy: Suppose some father’s kid, let us say ‘Robin’ just for shits and giggles, was deadified, drained, dressed, dug a hole, dropped in, and dirged — One’s own mental health prudence says ‘forget about it’.

I realize you are astonishingly dim, but that's a new depth of stupid. Do you not understand what fiction is? Of course not, you're too dumb to even understand insults, so it's no wonder you are confused by history. Or for that matter, the difference between jet fuel and a candle.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 18 Apr 2016 #permalink

Well, good, I'm glad to know that buildings cannot be destroyed by fire. Guess I should cancel that insurance.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 18 Apr 2016 #permalink

I'm going to say a little about 9/11 and I won't engage with any responses, pro or con. I go down the rabbit hole with things more immediate quite enough.
First, what aim would be worth the risk of being caught in something so monstrous? A war in Iraq? Don't joke with me like that. I might break a rib laughing. If "they" needed a cassus belli they could have cooked one up much simpler than that one. Hitler only needed about two dozen SS men and two dead political prisoners to "justify" invading Poland.
A conspiracy of the size needed to do all the things that conspiracists claim would by necessity have to involve many thousands of people, all of whom would have to be let in on pieces of the puzzle, and many of whom would after the fact have attacks of conscience or potentially have had relatives or friends among the dead and maimed. No one could possibly monitor so many people in so many places all the time; credible firsthand witnesses would by now be all over the place. It would be a big arrow pointing to a conspiracy for so many whistleblowers to start having "unfortunate accidents".
The Pentagon was a target in the attacks, so why was Donald Rumsfeld in his office when the plane hit the Pentagon? If he was in on it, he would have made himself scarce well before. If he wasn't, he would have found out the truth soon enough, and a pissed-off Secretary of Defense is a seriously dangerous enemy, with vast resources to draw on. Donald Rumsfeld may be a lot of things, but stupid was never one of them.
If NORAD was ordered to stand down, why didn't the one-third of its personnel, including the deputy commander, who were from Canadian Forces rat the whole thing out? Publicized by the CBC or the Globe and Mail, it would be a devastating scandal. Revealed to the PM in a private briefing, it would give him immense blackmail power over the White House. There is no good evidence of the latter ever having been exercised.
WTC 7 was built around an electrical substation, meaning that there was a four-story enclosed space in the center front where there were no supporting columns other than at the sides. It was inherently flawed, and when the heat caused the steel to weaken it couldn't hold.
If you look at films of controlled demolition, and that's one of my aspie enthusiasms, you will never see one come down from the top, only from the ground level, and the Towers would each have needed thousands of separate charges placed on structural elements to bring down in a controlled way.
Some claim that Flight 93 was brought down by a Customs or similar agency plane, either with missiles or guns. Someone would have to notice a Falcon or Learjet with a pair of twenty-foot-long Sidewinders or a pair of 20 mm gun pods under its wings, let alone the fact that modifying a business jet to carry weapons would require extensive complex modifications that someone would notice. Making the intercept with a plane not inherently faster than a large commercial airliner while carrying several extra tons of not very aerodynamic armaments would be a pretty piece of flying.
So here you have a few of my thoughts on the matter. One thing we can all do is to use common sense analysis with what we already know.

By Old Rockin' Dave (not verified) on 18 Apr 2016 #permalink

My late uncle told this story:
after the attack on the towers, he was frequently called by people mistaking him for his son ( a well-known engineer who designed systems in high rises) because they wanted commentary/ grist for their conspiracy mills. My cousin refused any interviews, including from legitimate reporters on television: he was already bothered enough at his work by people who wanted to write books/ make documentaries to have his name made more well-known.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 18 Apr 2016 #permalink

#16 Amethyst
I've been taking Vit C in megadoses( 1,000-2,000 mgs) for over 45 years. No joint pain (I'm 73) and do most of the Yoga poses w/o blocks. Just lucky so far I guess.

""can’t be what the report fucking said

I also would be interested to see what the report fucking said -- that part was classified because releasing the report would "jeopardize public safety".

""Since 9/11, how many jet aircraft have slammed into concrete and steel buildings?

Though I was limiting my scope to building 7 which was not hit by any plane,

a 1945 aircraft accident in which a B-25 Mitchell bomber, piloted in thick fog over New York City, crashed into the Empire State Building. The accident did not compromise the building's structural integrity, but it did cause fourteen deaths

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-25_Empire_State_Building_crash
============================

Tomorrow is the anniversary of the Waco massacre; I just wanted to remind people that "non-pyrotechnic" literally means "no fire method" should be used to disperse the CS powder because it was highly flammable.

Tomorrow is also the anniversary of the Murrah Federal massacre. We never got to see even one record of the many surveillance cameras and devices aimed toward that building; We never questioned the semantics of kids at kindergarden as to why they walked around chanting "Boom, Boom".

ken, I have not taken bunches of Vit C for 45 years. I don't have joint pain either. I'm only a dozen years younger than you.

Perhaps you would like to borrow the Cyrillic alphabet?

32 letters right? Maybe it could fill the bill.

Alain

Perhaps you would like to borrow the Cyrillic alphabet?

There (used to, probably) exist a rule in a journal that shall remain unnamed in which affiliations were to be set with romanization so long as it didn't involve some sort of crazy script from Yellow People.* Oh, and street abbreviations were not allowed.**

I once dutifully performed this task to spec with Armenian, IIRC. (My recall may not be so hot, but I just may have the table I used stashed away somewhere; I needed a Rollaboard® and then some to clear out during the failed dénouement, though. Did manage a kitten rescue during the last day, though.)

* It was actually more complicated.
** N.b. "ul." is not straightforward.

#131 Chris- you missed the point. I was answering #16- (if you weren't so trigger happy but I guess that's what you are paid for)
I meant I had no problems. I don't care if people take it or not- Drs say food should supply it. My mother lived to 95 w/o taking vitamins.

#131 How much are you paid to comment? These posts are
hilarious in their repetition of the party line.

ken: "Chris- you missed the point. I was answering #16"

Why should I care? Especially since you think I am paid to post my little anecdote. Which I posted so that you know that your anecdote is not data. Does that sound familiar.

Are you paid by those who sell Vitamin C pills? You must be a Vitamin C pill shill.

By the way, the longevity of your mother is probably a better anecdote than you consuming lots of vitamins and making very expensive urine. Your supplement store must love you, well not you.. they love your money.

By the way, it is has been fairly warm here this week. So I got my Vitamin C by lemon in tea, and actually eating fruit. I also munched lots of lovely veg that included my garden asparagus, kale and chard. Plus some the coleslaw (cabbage!), and the lovely potato salad with lots of sweet onion (who know onion was a really good source of Vitamin C).

I'm a shill for fruit and veggies. Especially since I have an edible garden. I had lots of garden parsley and oregano for chimichurri this weekend. Last year's kale is going to seed, but that okay because that means lots more volunteer plants. The apricot, cherry and pear trees are all setting some good fruit. I am still waiting on the persimmon and apples.

ken, would you like some good leads on nutritious food you can grow on your own? Herbs are super easy, and they pack lots of nutrients in a small package (and they are the reason I can make chicken and beef stock with very little salt).

Seriously, why would I want to go to a store to buy pills when I can spend time a garden growing really healthy food? If I am a shill for anything (and no one pays me), it would be for learning how to grow and cook your own healthy food. Something I have been doing for almost forty years.

Hey, Chris, can you e-mail attach some of that garden asparagus? My garden's just getting started, after being briefly stunted by a surprise frost.
I'll have to pass on the kale though, my endocrinologist told me flat out not to eat it yet. :/
Annoyingly, not a single musk melon or honeydew seed sprouted. :(
My corn seeds are also a lot dodgy this year, with one out of six plantings actually germinating.
Tomatoes, peppers and spices are all growing nicely though. :)

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 18 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Chris (not verified)

Sorry for the late night bad grammar. The most glaring bit: "(who knew onion was a really good source of Vitamin C?)."

ken, work on your diet. If you don't want to grow your own, at least visit your local farmer's market for fresh local produce (it is time for morel mushrooms... yum!). Figure out what is or is not in season. Learn how to cook. Don't get your nutrients through pills made in a factory.

"Tomatoes, peppers and spices are all growing nicely though."

Aaargh... the leeks, basil, dill and sunflowers are sprouting, but not the peppers. Those are in the greenhouse.

In our area it is too soon to do corn (but I have the seeds ready). Plus, sadly, we are too far north to grow melons. Which is odd because our maritime climate allows us to grow oregano, thyme, sage, bay laurel (it is a 20' tree!), and rosemary through our mild drippy winters. Our summers are just too short. We don't put tomatoes, beans or peppers out until late May/early June.

Hey, a day in the garden beats any minute in a supplement store. You don't know what you are missing, ken.

We just relocated to the Shreveport region, so earlier growing conditions are the norm. We had one surprise frost after I had put the plants into the ground, but it appears that the plants are recovering nicely.
The radishes are already close to harvest size. Hanged if I know the story with the melons and corn, I've never had such problems with seeds in the past.
Back when I retired from the Army, I started contracting for DoD and I had a super garden going in the Persian Gulf. Corn, watermelon, spices galore (I also learned, never put mint near basil, they'll cross-pollinate), peppers, tomatoes, green beans, peas, cucumbers (the version of cucumber common in the region is more like a gerkin, so our Arabian neighbors were astounded with our US sized cucumbers) and more.
I had gotten that garden started from the soil up, as it was a hole in the corner of our yard. I filled it in with soil/droppings from the livestock market, cat litter for clay binder and peat moss. We also had excellent pollinators in the local bees, which the first time I saw a nest, I was shocked - they have exposed combs and the bees cover them with their bodies.
It makes sense, a hive like we have here in the US and Europe would stifle in 120 degree temperatures.
I'll be spending my "weekend" in the yard for sure. The garden needs weeding badly and the neighbor's tree dropped a foot wide branch on our fence, crushing 8 feet of it and we're expecting rain until at least Thursday. :/
What I was going to spend on a lawnmower will now be going for a chainsaw. :(
Oh well, I still don't have the strength back yet to be mowing the yard, my thyroid caused quite a bit of muscle wasting and moderate left ventricular hypertrophy. Heaven save us from the retaliation of a thyroid enraged by the immune system!
I am taking protein supplements, per doctor's orders, to rebuild muscle mass again. Oh well, nothing reconditions one like doing yard work and fence repair!
Plus rebuilding my server farm, now that we've relocated. Fileservers aren't light beasts. :)

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 18 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Chris (not verified)

I also learned, never put mint near basil, they’ll cross-pollinate

Even worse, the very smell of mint will "antidote" homeopathic remedies. I regret that I'm not going to go digging for whether the Steinerites have a formal stance.

Heh, one other plant that I planted is usually considered a weed, horsemint. It makes an excellent tea.
Another plant is referred to as "Saudi mint", a slightly mint flavored plant as well, makes a wonderful tea.

I have a full kitchen cabinet full of teas of various sorts, largely herbal, for taste, not "medicine".
Well, save chamomile tea, which is mildly effective for my hypertension and was studied by U of P some time back.
The rest, for wonderful tastes. Aroma isn't relevant for me, as I don't have a sense of smell, in a way meaningful for humans. Seriously rotten food (such as a fridge without power for a month), ammonia and high proof ethanol are what I can detect.
But, I seem to also be a "super taster", an excessive number of receptors on my tongue, which allows me to huff and taste an aroma to some extent.
The lack of a sense of smell has also contributed to my food poisoning lack of sensitivity. I've not smelled food being off often enough to frequently get food poisoning and hence, I'm moderately resistant. One important point is, if I'm rapidly sickened, it's probably norovirus.
For the rest, if I'm sickened, it's mild "hershey squirts", overall and minimal vomiting. Everyone else is down hard.
That came in handy tracing a food borne infection some years back. While we suspected the cause, following the epidemiologist's questionnaire scientifically proved the source was one cook that attempted to scramble eggs in a humongous pot, the result was runny, salmonella infected, partially cooked eggs that were sent to the field. Those were subsequently consumed in the dark, at O-dark o'clock.
I'll admit to consuming a significant amount of Immodium and an attack of flatulence causing the evacuation of an entire barracks of sick infantrymen.
True story.
The cook was reclassified as an infantryman, where he caused no further harm.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 18 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Narad (not verified)

^ Oh:

Annoyingly, not a single musk melon or honeydew seed sprouted.

I do appreciate it when someone makes the distinction that not everything in the set is a "cantaloupe."

Indeed, the proper nomenclature should be always used. :)
I'm still annoyed that the bloody things didn't sprout, as my wife loves the melons. Heavily salted, of course, *@^&#!!!.
Oh well, I'll reseed soon. If those seeds fail, I'll seek a refund and recall.

Annoyed: Whatever happened to the two or three foot long watermelon?!
As an obligate omnivore, I resent the hell out of removing food choices!
If it ain't moving, I'll eat it. If it is moving, I'll get a bite on the run. ;)

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 18 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Narad (not verified)

Some claim that Flight 93 was brought down by a Customs or similar agency plane, either with missiles or guns. Someone would have to notice a Falcon or Learjet with a pair of twenty-foot-long Sidewinders or a pair of 20 mm gun pods under its wings, let alone the fact that modifying a business jet to carry weapons would require extensive complex modifications that someone would notice. Making the intercept with a plane not inherently faster than a large commercial airliner while carrying several extra tons of not very aerodynamic armaments would be a pretty piece of flying.

I find it odd that they would simultaneously claim NORAD was stood down AND that a non-USAF jet shot down the airliner. So, which is it -- the USAF cooperating, or having to go behind the USAF's back? Why not just use a fighter?

That said, Dassault makes a maritime patrol variant of the Falcon, which can be fitted with hardpoints to carry external stores. Various Falcon models are in service with militaries around the world. (The US Coast Guard even used to have a few, although they have since been retired.) So I'm not sure it would require a particularly unusual bit of flying on the part of the pilot.

My big problem with it all is the *pointlessness* of the alleged conspiracy. What could anyone possibly have gained by doing 9/11 as a false flag? Why hijack that jet only to shoot it down? Yeah, I know, to give us hope to rally around, but we were plenty mad without that jet. It would not have mattered. It's a rather quixotic thing for a nigh-omniscient super conspiracy to do.

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 19 Apr 2016 #permalink

If I'd been around that "demolitions expert" I'd have kicked him in the rear. I stood at the windows and watched the damn second plane fly into the towers, and watched them fall. Demolition my right foot!

DO NOT pull that "inside job" crap on me, Gilbert (by the way, you are a disgrace to that name). I lost friends in those towers, and now I'm going to crawl back into my hole and have shakes and nightmares again.

Also: fool: there's a HUGE difference in size, speed, weight AND fuel between the B-52 that hit the Empire State Building and the jets that hit WTC. Now, I have to go throw up. I avoid these conversations usually because they make me so sick, but I absolutely HATE the conspiracy freaks who weren't even close enough to WATCH.

MI Dawn: *HUGGLES*

I was very lucky not to lose friends or family in the attack. My cousin and her husband lived in Manhattan, but were commuting to work outside the city. She was working in Connecticut, so she spent a lot of time on the train. They were thinking about moving to ease the commute, and 9/11 pretty much cemented the decision for them. They lived close enough they weren't able to go home for a while after the collapse. I know they *did* lose friends.

My uncle (on the other side of the family) knew people who died as well. There were a bunch of small-town Minnesota banks that were planning a merger. All of their top executives met in New York to finalize the deal and celebrate on 9/11/01. At Windows on the World. Yeah. It of course was a major crisis for this nascent Minnesota banking organization, to have basically lost its entire leadership all at once. It was years before it really recovered.

That's the worst part of the conspiracy theories, of course. They are accusing everyone who was there of lying and colluding in the deaths of people they cared about. Which is pretty damn monstrous accusation to make without a scintilla of evidence beyond wanting it to be so. And god help someone who *wants* that to be so.

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 19 Apr 2016 #permalink

MI Dawn, have a remote hug on me.
But, a niggle: It was a B25 that crashed into the Empire State building, with a partial load of aviation gasoline. Differences were the type of construction used in the building, a hell of a lot of difference in airspeed of the two aircraft and a quarter million pounds of jet A kerosene.
Oh, the report that does't exist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Complete_9-11_Commission_Report.pdf

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 19 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Calli Arcale (not verified)

Here's one Meridian Plaza fire, resulting in the loss of the building, but was only started with oily rags.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Meridian_Plaza
I remember that fire, several firefighters lost their lives in the fire and eventually, firefighting efforts were halted out of concerns of a collapse.

My wife was in DC & actually saw the 737 hit the Pentagon....I hate conspiracy theorists.

Calli Arcale, I will bend my rule just a little bit. I was aware that the Falcon has a maritime patrol version, but it could hardly fail to be noticed flying around inland with 20-ft. long missiles under its wings.
Since maritime patrol planes don't have a role in aerial combat, and business jets aren't built for speed, adding in the electronics that allow pilot and missile to "talk" to each other and make the launch, or the fitting of a gunsight and firing mechanisms, would take a lot of work and money. The maximum speed of a Falcon, as one example, is not all that much more than the cruising speed of a 757, and the pilot would have to fly fast enough and high enough to make the intercept and come into visual range without the agility of a fighter aircraft and with the airliner's transponder turned off so no help from the FAA, while itself showing on air traffic radar. Beside that, the site of the crash couldn't really be controlled, so evidence might fall into the "wrong" hands.
(Did I say a little bending, and not engaging to begin with?
"Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself." - Walt Whitman)

By Old Rockin' Dave (not verified) on 19 Apr 2016 #permalink

Here's a unique aircraft launching a hellfire missile.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_208_Caravan#/media/File:An_AC-208_…
We don't use that type of aircraft to fire weapons, as we have specialist aircraft to fire missiles.
For the record, a hellfire missile is pretty much the worst missile to choose for antiaircraft purposes.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 19 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Old Rockin' Dave (not verified)

My location was supposed to be "On a high horse I can't get off of."
Tiny keyboards and hand tremors don't play nice together.

By Old Rockin' Dave (not verified) on 19 Apr 2016 #permalink

#139 Chris- I eat tons of organic veggies and am a good cook. I'm in better shape than my mom at the same age. She had 2 operations at that time (even though she lived to 95) She had very stiff joints. Vit C is not expensive and it can't hurt. There is research supporting supplementation. Would love to have your garden;alas I'm a city dweller. Grew tomatoes on my terrace when I had one.

Intravenous vitamin C administration improves quality of life in breast cancer patients during chemo-/radiotherapy and aftercare: results of a retrospective, multicentre, epidemiological cohort study in Germany.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22021693I

Ken: There is research supporting supplementation.

Well, yes, but for most medical professionals supplementation is considered to be the last resort or as a way to make up for a nutrient that's not there or that the body isn't processing properly. For example, most men don't need folate supplements, as they can get enough from their diet. A woman will need folate if she's pregnant.
I, personally, need iron supplements, as I'm damn near anemic- I do actually ingest enough iron, it just doesn't stick around long enough to do any good.
If somehow you end up subsisting on a mix of freeze-dried food and potatoes, then you need supplements.
If you're eating a lot of fresh fruits and veggies- or even fresh salsa- you shouldn't need extra vitamin c. But if you want to literally piss your money away, then supplement away.
Wzrd: I wish I was you. All I'm doing this weekend in the yard is checking if the hummingbird feeder is getting customers. Assuming it doesn't rain. I have no green thumb, but I'd love to try if the growing was that good.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 19 Apr 2016 #permalink

#158 The cost of Vit C is about 10 cents/day.

And in case anyone had any doubts that Gilly is a horrible person, he's now apparently suggesting that Timothy McViegh's victims were complicit in their own deaths. Victim blaming kindergartners, buddy? Things living at the bottom of the Mariana Trench have more class than you.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 19 Apr 2016 #permalink

Old Rockin' Dave -- oh yeah, it'd absolutely be expensive. I was just pointing out that its basic aerodynamics can handle that just fine. There are also maritime patrol/attack variants of some other bizjets; they're popular for sale to countries that can't afford more purpose-built types of military aircraft. I think Embraer does one too.

One of the things I've been involved with is the addition of electronics to such aircraft for stores management. So yeah, you're absolutely right that it is not cheap. ;-) Missile wouldn't have to be 20 feet long, though. That's overkill. Most air-to-air missiles are less than half that. A maritime patrol aircraft might carry a Harpoon; that can take out a ship, and it's about 13 feet long. Also costs over a million bucks apiece, and would be a terrible choice for shooting down an airplane. ;-)

Now, if we're to think like a conspiracy theorist (ew), the transponder turning off isn't a problem, since this is a false flag -- the hijackers are cooperating with the government. So they would presumably fly it to a predetermined point. But the problem with *that* is why not just go old school and bring a bomb on board? The whole connection of things you have to believe in order for it to be a conspiracy is massive and include several direct contradictions. It makes no sense.

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 19 Apr 2016 #permalink

BTW, I remember a conversation online with someone not terribly long after 9/11 regarding the "shot down by a bizjet" idea. There was actually a bizjet someplace not hideously far away, close enough at least to give the conspiracy theorists ideas, and she was adamant that it had missiles. From her description, though, it was actually wingtip fuel pods, which aren't all that unusual as range extenders on bizjets.

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 19 Apr 2016 #permalink

Is anyone else getting a serious sense of de ja vu? Gilbert is reminding me, strongly, of a long gone troll here (c00lr) who was so unspeakable that they ended up getting dis-em-vowel-ed over at Aetiology.

That troll also loved to whine on endlessly about "building 7". What's next, the moon landings?
And what does any of this have to do with medication?

By JustaTech (not verified) on 19 Apr 2016 #permalink

Gilbert is reminding me, strongly, of a long gone troll here (c00lr) who was so unspeakable that they ended up getting dis-em-vowel-ed over at Aetiology.

Given Gilbert/Tim/tiM/TIm/Timmeh/Élan [sic*] vital/Mitzi Dupree's general bad trip, it wouldn't surprise me.

* No accents on French caps, if you can edit your way out of a wet paper bag.

Ken: Still, that's $3 a month, $36 at the end of the year. And that's ONLY if you buy the bottom-priced, no brand-name supplement. I can think of a lot of better things to do with thirty-six dollars.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 19 Apr 2016 #permalink

32 letters right? Maybe it could fill the bill.

33 actually, but it might be the case that some sources don't consider miagki znak (soft sign) to be a letter, since it doesn't make any sound on it's own (it never appears on its own), but only softens the consonants it comes after.

I just asked my mom why she doesn't have a vegetable garden; she says there are too many deer around now that our old dog is dead. (She died when I was in college.)

She adopted a cat that the neighbors left behind; she was even letting it sleep inside during the winter. He and I have been slowly making friends; he's kind of a scaredy-cat. Taking suggestions for names; my mom just calls him "kitty cat."

@Wzrd1: oops...my numbers dyslexia got to me again. I flip number sequences ALL the time unless I'm really careful, and I was posting in a hurry. Thanks for the correction. (And I kinda like the B-52s anyway.... LOL)

MI Dawn, I know the deal with dyslexia, I'm dyslexic myself.
We've B52's aplenty here, Barksdale AFB is down the road and they routinely overfly my house.
Watching them make a delivery is also an impressive sights as well. :)

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 19 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by MI Dawn (not verified)

ken: 2 niggles. Vitamin C might be cheap, but you were also referencing IV infusion, which *isn't* cheap...around here, I've heard $40-60/infusion, and they usually get up into the 90s in number of infusions.
Second: you pee out what you don't need, so you're not only getting expensive urine, you're setting yourself up for scurvy if you stop taking high doses after a while, as your body gets used to eliminating the excess.

I'd rather just eat fruit and vegetables, and (due to surgery), take my daily multivitamin.

Should have been miagkii znak above, but I suppose it's not like anybody would notice the mistake.

it’s not like anybody would notice the mistake.
You never know with Narad.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 19 Apr 2016 #permalink

@ JP:

Kitty Cat? I had an aunt, Kitty. She and her mother were both Katherine.

I have of late liked first names that people use. The obvious Tom and Bob. I had a Sam, one of my gentlemen had Sheila.

My friend has a cat found on a golf course named Bogey. Another, found under a snowed-in porch, was Frosty ( big and white). A third was Andy. She didn't know AJW.
I know someone with a cat called Jerry Garcia. My other aunt had a black cat named Lucky. My cousin's wife has Mojo.
How about Pookie?

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 19 Apr 2016 #permalink

I'll leave it as an exersize for the reader to verify that a 1994 US Geological Survey showed the same crater and scar that was allegedly left by the crash of Flight 93.

JP: Miagkii actually sounds like an awesome cat name. As for my family, from a poll of four pet owners, we have Toby, Aeneus, Spooky, Ovid, Dog (long story), Wild Thing, and Maximillian. There was also a neighborhood cat who I nicknamed Big Fur. I'm pretty sure he had Maine Coon in him somewhere, and he took over a dog house.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 19 Apr 2016 #permalink

The current cats in residence here are Molly and Kaja; before that, we had Julian. I named Molly; the other two had those names when we adopted them.

""Victim blaming kindergartners, buddy?

Not at all, PgP #160. It is that those kids are the most unbiased thus most reliable witness for what really went down.

"Boom .. Boom"

An echo? I think not.

I have of late liked first names that people use. The obvious Tom and Bob. I had a Sam, one of my gentlemen had Sheila.

I am much of the persuasion that full, given cat names should be three syllables in length, with intrinsically different vocalic patterns, and have some enunciable semantics, whether intrisic or extrinsic.

The "vocalic" element is predicated on having multiple cats and their being able to recognize a personal singsong call when being searched for (this has proved effective with one who kept escaping to return to his stomping grounds at the previous apartment, which was no mean feat).

However, I've found this to be a project that depends very much on serendipitous inspiration,* with two-syllable nicknames as likely as not to ultimately prevail in the calling task.

After once or twice, though, I worry that I may be getting lulled into using this phenomenon to limit the search space. I am guilty of one retrodiction.**

* Look, man, the whole thing is rooted in free association. Specifically, I am not recommending the cat name "Terrapin." I don't reject it out of hand, though, but I'd say that "Purity" and even "Purrity" are prima facie stronger. (The comment from the chiropractor about Masonic symbolism is really worth the price of admission, so there.)
** Note to JP: From that Koestler.

Sure.
You don't think that I actually called him Sam?
Sammy Boy.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 19 Apr 2016 #permalink

multiple cats and their being able to recognize a personal singsong call when being searched for

Do not name cats after the Dioskouri. It is all very well to be calling for Castor, but when you wander around at night shouting Pollux! Pollux!, the neighbours are wont to look askance.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 19 Apr 2016 #permalink

Sure.
You don’t think that I actually called him Sam?
Sammy Boy.

In practice? After my previous digression, I'll refrain from further indulgence over vowel doubling for nominally single-syllable names.

Narad: "I am much of the persuasion that full, given cat names should be three syllables in length, with intrinsically different vocalic patterns, and have some enunciable semantics, whether intrisic or extrinsic."

Aaah! We were following a Narad rule without knowing it over a decade ago. Twelve years ago we got "Quicksilver" (because she is a gray cat), and the next year "Mario."

The only reason we had two cats was because two children wanted their own pets after one of the greatest cats in the world, Louie, died at age nineteen. It turned out the cats hated each other and we had literal pissing matches throughout the house. Mario, the stupid, still occasionally piddles on the stair carpet. I "love" trying to explain the waterproof covering on the steps.

Fortunately Quicksie is now living elsewhere with youngest child. Though she may be back as youngest transitions between her present rental and moving to another state. She does promise to take the little gray aging kitty there on the plane.

My furbag is called "Hobbes". Yes, I'm the most original pet owner, ever.

My cat is called Soussou and his mom, who died some years ago, was Touta. My first cat was Kayleigh and I want a cat to name Findus.

Findus...of "Pettson and Findus"-fame?

Yes, that Findus. My dad and I love those books.

I can easily be persuaded to scan pages of "Pancakes for Findus".

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 20 Apr 2016 #permalink

Denice @173 one of our cats is called Ginger Baker, do you think he'd get on with Jerry Garcia?

By Philip Collman (not verified) on 20 Apr 2016 #permalink

We've had several cats. First was Genghis Khan (yes, a Siamese - seal point). Then Chauncey (black and white with a mustache - neurotic animal who loved dried apricots and sliding on the porcelain in the bathtub when it was empty). Triskele (another sealpoint), Tanya - all black, named before we got her from the shelter, and Taji (a blue/silverpoint mix).

A friend has cats named Emma, Nelson and Hamilton.

(For those who can see it, my photo is Taji, who I sadly had to put to sleep after the dummy decided to knock over and eat a bottle of valium.)

As long as we're talking cat names - Valiant Slayer of Moles, or Prince for short.

And a previous dog Giuseppe Fred Saponee.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 20 Apr 2016 #permalink

@ Narad:

Yes. I named him 'Sam' but found out later that he preferred a longer, more musical appellation- therefore, 'Sammy Boy'.

@ Phillip:
Ha!
Believe it or not, Jerry's caretaker is a stoner. And today is you know.
I assume that Ginger Baker is ginger. So is Jerry Garcia.

@ Mi Dawn:
Sad tale..

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 20 Apr 2016 #permalink

If you look at films of controlled demolition, and that’s one of my aspie enthusiasms, you will never see one come down from the top, only from the ground level

Old Rockin' Dave #127, meet your top-down controlled demolition black swann:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJQRK0JjH70

""Oh, the report that does’t exist

Wzrd1 #149, perhaps you could point me to the relevant part of that report which concerns WTC 7. Actually, I misspoke in conflating the Omission report with the Nist report on WTC7:

FINDING REGARDING PUBLIC SAFETY INFORMATION
Pursuant to Section 7(d) of the National Construction Safety Team Act, I hereby find that the disclosure of the information described below, received by the National Institute of Standards and Technology ("NIST"), in connection with its investigation of the technical causes of the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers and World Trade Center Building 7 on September 11,2001, might jeopardize public safety. Therefore, NIST shall not release the following information:

1. All input and results files of the ANSYS 16-story collapse initiation model with detailed connection models that were used to analyze the structural response to thermal loads, break element source code, ANSYS script files for the break elements, custom executable ANSYS file, and all Excel spreadsheets and other supporting calculations used to develop floor connection failure modes and capacities.

2. All input files with connection material properties and all results files of the LS-DYNA 47-story global collapse model that were used to simulate sequential structural failures leading to collapse, and all Excel spreadsheets and other supporting calculations used to develop floor connection failure modes and capacities.
~
Patrick Gallagher Director National Institute of Standards and Technology
Dated: JUL 09 2009

http://911blogger.com/news/2010-07-12/nist-denies-access-wtc-collapse-d…

I know not to plod through 528 pages of tripe to see why the building fell because it's not there; Your blind appeal to authority demonstrates your cluelessness -- What was that about Kruger-Dunning again?

I stood at the windows and watched the damn second plane fly into the towers, and watched them fall. Demolition my right foot!

My condolences, MI Dawn #146. For what it's worth, I was never a 'no planer'. I don't know how planes came up as I was discussing building 7. Strawman much? Though planes can be retrofitted to carry all manner of ordinance -- I once saw a space shuttle piggybacking a 747. The first one, Enterprise.

One thing that may cause such a report to be buried is if it contained information that these large highrise structures are pre-wired for demolition for when the day comes -- That sort of thing makes the tennants too jittery to continue investigations such as Murrah Federal, Enron, and Global Crossing. Paperwork, Wzrd1? There was plenty of that.

Building 7's implosion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-27FGbpBk4

Who Killed John O'Neill?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSyFD51vN_4
=====================================

neurotic animal who loved dried apricots and sliding on the porcelain in the bathtub when it was empty

I had a cat I raised from a newborn kitten after his mom died -- He loved water and would jump in the shower with me every time, reveling in the full spray. I don't know if he liked the water so much as the towel-dry pampering afterwards. Pounces dissapeared one day; Most likely a victim of the many coyotes here.

"One thing that may cause such a report to be buried is if it contained information that these large highrise structures are pre-wired for demolition for when the day comes"

1 - what could be the reason to "prewire" these structures? No, I understand, to demolish them. I mean, what could be the reason to have to demolish them in a jiffy?
2 - because explosives don't have a "use before" date. Sure.
3 - if you are right, where are the other "wired-up" buildings?

By Helianthus (not verified) on 20 Apr 2016 #permalink

“One thing that may cause such a report to be buried is if it contained information that these large highrise structures are pre-wired for demolition for when the day comes”

Yeah, because everyone builds a building, just to blow it up when "the day comes". Someone doesn't have much of a clue on real estate investment!

Back in the late 90's, we had drawn some TNT from the ammunition supply point. It wasn't an unusual thing, as explosive demolitions was part of our duties. What was unusual was the fact that the TNT charges were dated 1958.
Less than a third of the charges properly detonated and we spent the afternoon collecting TNT from the ground, where it had been sprayed by failed detonations, piling it up and sympathetically detonating it with a dozen M112 demolition blocks of C-4.
As we were bitten once, we closely examined the C-4 and fortunately, it wasn't expired. C-4 should be white, just as TNT should be white, both can degrade, but C-4 can degrade into an unstable form that would detonate with little provocation. In that state, it turns brown.
Yes, explosives degrade, some quite rapidly. The higher the destructive force, the quicker it degrades. So, wiring things up in advance won't be effective for very long and one's blasting caps will degrade the fastest of all, as they're hygroscopic in nature, they'll suck the water from the air and the water then inactivates them.
As concrete has quite a bit of water in it, one's charges would fail in under a year.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 20 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Helianthus (not verified)

Gilbert:

Though planes can be retrofitted to carry all manner of ordinance — I once saw a space shuttle piggybacking a 747. The first one, Enterprise.

How very cool that you got to see Enterprise riding one of the SCAs! Was that on delivery to the USS Intrepid museum in 2012 (when it flew over Manhattan) or longer ago? Just curious. If you got to witness an ALT test . . . oh, that is so cool. I am very jealous. ;-) That particular Shuttle Carrier Aircraft, by the way, now lives in Houston, on static display at JSC, with a mockup Orbiter on top. Of course, all the Orbiters got to ride on 747s, many times. Endeavour was the last to do so, on delivery to the California Science Center in 2012. I'm an incurable space nerd *and* a 747 fan, so I still get choked up watching the videos on YouTube of the Orbiters each being delivered to their final homes.

A couple of minor points:

1) A Space Shuttle isn't really ordnance. They didn't even put range safety packages on the Orbiters; they put them on the SRBs and ETs instead. But damn, you picked pretty much the ultimate example of making an airplane carry something. ;-)

2) Just about any airplane can be retrofitted to carry something, yes. If you can afford it. ;-) I just don't understand why anyone would suggest the US government would retrofit an aircraft specifically for this job when they've already got a lot of airplanes that come equipped for that right out of the box. And when it makes no sense for the jet to have been shot down anyway. I'm sorry, I just don't understand how that even all fits in to a coherent narrative.

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 20 Apr 2016 #permalink

A 747 ferrying a space shuttle is cool, for me, cooler would be watching them mount the space shuttle way up there on top of that 747. The rest would just be gravy.

Why someone would gin up an aircraft to launch an air to air missile when they already have a couple of thousand fighter jets that could do that "out of the box" is also beyond me.
It'd be expensive and the aircraft would stick out like a sore thumb in a hammer factory.
I suspect that some people have difficulty understanding that we don't have fighters idling on the runway, awaiting scramble orders to go shoot at someone. We don't for the simple reason that it's crazy expensive to do so in peacetime.
Fighter aircraft are maintenance intensive beasts!

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 20 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Calli Arcale (not verified)

As concrete has quite a bit of water in it, one’s charges would fail in under a year.

I've worked and finished concrete, Wzrd1 #196. It's quite the dessicant drawing moisture inside itself from it's surroundings for some 30 years -- It makes a nasty burn if it gets into your shoe.

Barksdale, hu? Whatd'ya know about the missing 'Barksdale nuke'? Makes me nervous when Lindsey Graham is just sooo sure Charleston is gonna get nuked.

Six AGM-129 cruise missiles, each loaded with a W80-1 variable yield nuclear warhead, were mistakenly loaded onto a United States Air Force (USAF) B-52H heavy bomber at Minot Air Force Base and transported to Barksdale Air Force Base.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_United_States_Air_Force_nuclear_weap…

I seem to recall that a disproportionate number of those involved suffered *single vehicle accidents* or just killed themselves. Rouge spheres are a bit of an embarrassment to the establishment.
============================

I was in grade school, Calli Arcale #197. ~1976-1980

It came in to land at Marshall in Huntsville, Alabama. We got a subsequent tour and I stood under the nose being in awe of the guy heating up and holding in his bare hand a white hot sample of the tiles (high insulatory value, low specific heat) -- silicon carbide.

There were no missing nukes at Barksdale, there was an environment of lousy discipline and non-adherence to standards of care for nuclear weapons.
Especially damning: leaving a half dozen nuclear missiles attached to a B-52, unguarded and unknown that they were there. Once they were discovered, all hell broke loose and they were properly secured.
Yep, a lot of careers ended that day and rightfully so.
Single car accidents aren't uncommon in the military, it's called drunk driving. Suicides are also far too common in the military. Having one's career come to a screeching halt can precipitate drunk driving or suicide.
At least the Army kept proper control of their nukes. Even if I was present to see a bunch of drunken soldiers driving around Germany with a half dozen Pershing missile warheads...

I worked with my father on concrete, poured thousands of yards over the years. Never got burned, my skin seems to not mind it, no clue why. I'm also resistant to poison ivy, no reaction at all.

How was the man holding a tile that is glued to the shuttle in his hand?
We use similar tiles inside of applique armor for armored vehicles, layers of Kevlar and several types of ceramic tile to break up focused plasma jets from incoming RPG's.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 20 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Gilbert (not verified)

Yes, explosives degrade, some quite rapidly.
In a way, that's their job.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 20 Apr 2016 #permalink

By the way, aluminum burns. It is one component of solid rocket fuel. So it was not just the jet fuel that burned.

""aluminum burns

So does steel and iron, Chris #201. It's gotta get hot enough first. Kerosene Jet A does not come anywhere close to those temperatures. And yet, there is much video of semi-molten, red hot beams being pulled out of 'the pile' even from months later.

I know Winston Churchill said this but probably others said it before he did: Two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead. What is the probability of a secret being kept by thousands of people?

Also, everyone knows that the towers were taken down by Crowbar KEWs.

Rich, I don't know, they could have been easily taken down with gridfire and a CAM dusting.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 20 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Rich Bly (not verified)

By the way, aluminum burns.

Clearly the HMS Sheffield was constructed out of aluminium with the intention of destroying it. False flag operation! Inside job!!

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 20 Apr 2016 #permalink

Ah, but the HMS Sheffield had a steel superstructure.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 20 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by herr doktor bimler (not verified)

Wzrd1, as far as I am aware no one has any Crowbars in orbit although

9/11 Truthers are almost worse than anti-vaxers....they love to move the goal-posts & building 7 is a particular favorite, despite all of the real evidence to the contrary.

The operating temperature of a jet engine is around 2000 degrees C, steel melts between 1300 and 1500 degrees and softens at under 600 degrees (air flow through the engine keeps it from melting). So burning jet A fuel has enough energy to at least soften steel. Once the structural steel is soften it is no longer structural in nature and a collapse will occur.

Lawrence -- the worst is having a dinner partner who not only believes President Obama was born in Kenya, but that George W. Bush will go down in history as Murrka's finest president.

I liked the hostess which put a crimp in my style.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 20 Apr 2016 #permalink

@Rich - a perfect example of a basic working knowledge of metallurgy which seems to allude the 9/11 truthers.....

no one has any Crowbars in orbit
Orbit? I thought they flew at Mach 4, leaving a trail of radiation and reactor-core fragments.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 20 Apr 2016 #permalink

HDB, The Crowbar KEW is a chunk of metal with a guidance package and is dropped from orbit at a target. 100kg mass striking at 18,000 mph will make a big hole.

The nuclear jet engine is idea who's time may come when try to explore the upper reaches of Jupiter's atmosphere.

Remember, they're talking about WTC 7, where Giuliani had large quantities of fuel stored for his "emergency bunker" (something several stories above ground may be an emergency command center, but it's not a bunker). Of course it burned.

A little fuel is the same as a burning super sized tower falling on the building.
The diesel fuel fire was discounted quite early on, when it was modeled and failed to be a significant cause of structural problems.
But, a great bloody office tower falling on the building, nearly splitting it in two did cause some odd problems, go figure.

As for an emergency management center, it can be on any floor in a building, they're not bunkers, they're emergency management centers. While one can have one in a bunker, it's usually a dreadful waste of money to build a bunker for a simple emergency management center.
Just as my building where I work, built in tornado alley, has a hardened area for us to go to in the event of a tornado, but the rest of the building would be severely damaged or destroyed if a tornado hit it. It didn't make sense to fortify the entire building, rather than simply insuring equipment and protecting personnel.
One calculates the expense based upon the single loss expectancy vs the annualized loss expectancy of a specific event. Falling office towers are extremely rare, so one doesn't spend much to protect against them.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 20 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Vicki (not verified)

...steel ... softens at under 600 degrees...

This is something that blacksmiths have known longer than this country has been around, and something I learned in high school.

Between idiots drinking the bong water and the lack of wood/auto/metal shop classes, I weap for this generation.

Johnny: "This is something that blacksmiths have known longer than this country has been around, and something I learned in high school."

And something the engineers of the "Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth" should also know. It is included in the "materials" class required of most mechanical/civil engineers.

I was a structural engineer who did take and get a good grade from my materials class. I also took a thermal/heat transfer class on the behavior of metals to heat. I get a bit ragey when I hear those idiots make stupid claims on the behavior of steel beams.

I agree that the emergency management center for a city doesn't need to be in a bunker.

A sensible person, having put the city emergency management center on an upper floor, wouldn't have repeatedly referred to it as a "bunker."

What an interesting concept, referring to a politician as "a sensible person". ;)
Most wouldn't recognize a bunker hatch if their foot was stuck in it when it slammed shut.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 20 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Vicki (not verified)

I agree that the emergency management center for a city doesn’t need to be in a bunker.

Our county EOC is in the basement, under the jail. Neither cell phones nor wifi work there.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 20 Apr 2016 #permalink

Wzrd1:

A 747 ferrying a space shuttle is cool, for me, cooler would be watching them mount the space shuttle way up there on top of that 747. The rest would just be gravy.

Oh, then here you go! Time-lapse video of Discovery being towed into the Mate-Demate Device and then mated with the SCA. Watch very closely when the nosegear is retracted -- they have very sophisticated devices (modified pushbrooms, yes really) to get the doors latched. ;-) Shuttle never had to raise its gear in flight, so to save weight, they left out the latching mechanism you'd find on a normal aircraft. This was in preparation for Discovery's final ferry flight to Washington, DC.

https://youtu.be/hBN1LHKGjXM

Gilbert:

It came in to land at Marshall in Huntsville, Alabama. We got a subsequent tour and I stood under the nose being in awe of the guy heating up and holding in his bare hand a white hot sample of the tiles (high insulatory value, low specific heat) — silicon carbide.

Oh, sweet!!!! To be able to come that close.... The Rocket City is on my places-to-see list. I want to visit all the NASA centers. So far I've only visited two: KSC and Langley. I did also get to see Endeavour at the California Science Center, which was very awesome -- my places-to-see list also includes going to DC again so I can see Discovery, and New York City so i can see Enterprise. Yes, my number one reason to see the Big Apple is a test article for the Space Shuttle program. I have my priorities. ;-)

Wzrd1:

How was the man holding a tile that is glued to the shuttle in his hand?

Minor clarification on Gilbert's behalf: the man would've been holding a sample tile, not one attached to the Shuttle (which, being Enterprise, didn't actually have any, and, being attached to the SCA, would have been about fifty or so feet up in the air anyway). It was one of their most popular little stage acts to demonstrate during educational events: heat a tile with a blowtorch until it is red hot, and then pick it up with your bare hand. I wouldn't be surprised if they still do it; it's a great materials science demonstration.

They would not allow anyone to fool around with a tile that's actually on the Orbiter. No way.

Chris:

By the way, aluminum burns. It is one component of solid rocket fuel. So it was not just the jet fuel that burned.

Solid rocket propellant also provides an oxidizer. I very much doubt the aircraft fuselage ignited (though I've no doubt much of the rest of the structure of the aircraft did).

Gilbert:

So does steel and iron, Chris #201. It’s gotta get hot enough first. Kerosene Jet A does not come anywhere close to those temperatures.

Aluminum burns at a lower temperature than iron; it is actually plausible for it to combust in an airplane fire. Check out images from plane crashes shortly after takeoff, when there is a large fuel load; there's often very little of the fuselage left. Steel and titanium parts, like fan disks, survive; the aluminum often does not.

Consider, for instance, the Air Frace flight 4590 accident. That was the Concorde that crashed on take-off from Charles de Gaulle. A small piece of debris from a DC-10 punctured a tire, which launched debris into one of the fuel tanks of the Concorde in exactly the right place to cause the tank to rupture. Leaking fuel ignited. This fire caused portions of the wing to partially melt and break away; the aircraft shed debris throughout its short flight as the fire burned through more and more of the structure. Like most aircraft, the bulk of Concorde's structure was aluminum. And bear in mind, this is an aircraft designed to exceed the speed of sound, so it's built to accept a fair amount of heat, and the bits that were melted away on this aircraft did so in seconds. Clearly, Jet-A does indeed burn hot enough.

Rich Bly:

Wzrd1, as far as I am aware no one has any Crowbars in orbit although

Actually, there is at least one pry-bar aboard the ISS! If that counts as a crowbar. ;-) You can see it (or rather its flight spare) in this awesome article here, showing a look at what the ISS's toolchest looks like:
http://toolguyd.com/iss-toolbox-tools/

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 20 Apr 2016 #permalink

They had about three times as many people as I would have thought they needed for the lift.
With heavy lifts, one tries to minimize the number of squishy people about.
To do so with that many bodies about shows some very, very serious coordination!

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 20 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Calli Arcale (not verified)

Calli Arcale, thanks for the info. However, I don't think it would a very god KEW; hard to hit a specific target.

100kg mass striking at 18,000 mph will make a big hole

Rich Bly #216, like this?

‘Project Thor’ is basically summed up as “Rods from God” or “an orbiting tungsten telephone pole with small fins and a computer in the back for guidance.” Once given the launch command, a satellite would drop the ‘pole,’ which would then speed up until going at orbital velocity, around 10 miles a second. At this speed, when it hit a ground based target, it would have the explosive equivalent of a small-yield nuclear weapon and would also have great penetrating power because of its long, thin profile.

This program is the first example of what we now call “kinetic bombardment,” using dense objects traveling at very high speeds to eliminate targets without the need of explosives, no need for nuclear bombs.

http://www.groundzeromedia.org/kinetic-retaliation/

And if it was not a nuke, it was something else incredibly huge, but not a fuel air bomb because fuel air bombs will not leave craters.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/08/25/confirmation-tianjin-was-nuked/

^^ Derpy. Well, if the KEW fits better than a nuke...
==================================

@Calli Arcale #224

I seem to recall the shuttle then was in a building not attached to a plane. I even seem to recall that it had tiles and that they discussed a problem with the glue.

I've a friend that worked for one of the contractors doing powder painting. I'd visit him at work and have seen the large sheets of aluminum they form the external tank out of. He painted the nosecone of Columbia and was questioned after it's demise.

In 1994, I've stood on Merrit Island by the strip (Landing Field - 49, I think) when one came in -- I was running the portable wind profiler (clear air doppler radar) for them then as a previous landing had low level wind shear which blew out all the tires.

I got the briefest tour of the VAB though I'd drive by it daily. Mind the alligators.
=================================

Of course, aluminum burns. And iron. And steel. I've seen plenty a beer can turn to floppy ash under the convection of a nice little camp fire. Iron, once hot enough, is sustained through the addition of water in pulses. And when cutting, the fuel is shut off and only oxygen blown onto the burning slit.

But the mostest bestest fires are when Iron and aluminum burn together. Thermite. It can be made by using electrolysis to make a slurry first out of a pair of scissors and next a couple aluminum gutter nails. Let dry (rust) and mix. It is also an 'eutectic' lowering the melting point of steel and iron -- according to Mark's Engineering Handbook, it's the only way to properly weld a cast iron engine block; The next guy who sends me on a wild goose chase for 'nickel rods' is going to find his Qi balanced by them should they actually materialize.

Thermite vs. car
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdCsbZf1_Ng

I wonder if cherry tomatoes would grow in that pot?

oops, the 'eutectic' would be from the addition of sulfur -- Thermate.

Rich Bly,
"I know Winston Churchill said this but probably others said it before he did: Two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead."
There was a tile in a cafe I used to visit with this French inscription (Sorry, I can't do accents on this keyboard)
Secrete a deux,
Secrete a Dieu.
Secrete a plus,
Secrete de tous.
It loses everything in translation, which goes about like this:
A secret of two
is a secret of/before God.
A secret of more
Is a secret of all.
:

By Old Rockin' Dave (not verified) on 22 Apr 2016 #permalink

@ Old Rockin Dave
More exactly:
Secret de deux, secret de Dieu; secret de trois, secret de tous.
Translation is OK.

By Daniel Corcos (not verified) on 23 Apr 2016 #permalink

@Old Rockin' Dave #229

""It loses everything in translation,

could it somehow be translated that *two gone to/before God* instead of the stated shared secret in God's presence

And then 'Secret a plus...'

If two have died and there be but one more....

I'm pretty sure Franklin took a tour de France somewhere about the time of uttering this quote.

Daniel Corcos: I stand by my source, which was a tile in a cafe in the Village of Oyster Bay. If it was changed, I didn't do it, and it did read "plus", not "trois", "Plus" makes it into a rhymed couplet, and a little more pleasing to the ear.

By Old Rockin' Dave (not verified) on 23 Apr 2016 #permalink

Palindrom: It's a remarkable story, and I'm not saying it couldn't have happened, but there are several differences from most conspiracies. They had no intent to harm and didn't cause any, reducing guilt as a motivation to speak out.. There was no monetary or other personal gain involved. They planned their burglary like a military operation, and carried it out in such a way that the likelihood of being caught was small, and unlike, say, the Lufthansa robbers, had no sudden wealth to throw around or other tells. Staying mostly separated from each other made a chance slipup, such as an overheard or bugged conversation. Their ideological motivation likely reduced the urge to boast.
If this seems a little disjointed, it's late at night and I mightily enjoyed the Passover wine, which is no longer confined to Manischewitz's Malaga cough syrup, but was a nice California kosher Cabernet.

By Old Rockin' Dave (not verified) on 23 Apr 2016 #permalink

Dave, there were other kosher wines than Manischewitz cough syrup. I recall enjoying Carmel Rishon wines long ago, then they seemed to disappear.
There was one ceremonial wine from that vineyard that was excellent, well bodied and not as deadly sweet as Manischewitz products.

By Wzrd1 (not verified) on 23 Apr 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Old Rockin' Dave (not verified)

Gilbert,: My literal, if ugly, translation is a close one. What's lost in my translation is the rhyme of the original. Only twelve words two of them repeated four times, put succinctly what English would need many more to say.
Your version is interesting and maybe more poetic, but you are making it carry more weight than it can carry.

By Old Rockin' Dave (not verified) on 23 Apr 2016 #permalink

@ ORD
When pronounced in French, there is no rhyme with "plus" and "tous". And we say "secret" not "secrete". The person who wrote the inscription was an English-speaker.

By Daniel Corcos (not verified) on 23 Apr 2016 #permalink

Wzrd1, our wine was from the Baron Herzog winery. The choice was a tossup between that and one from Bartenura. Very nice Pesach wines are produced in France, Italy, and (gasp!) Germany, among others.
Kasher l'Pesach wines are usually the best production of the year because commonly every bit of equipment is either steam cleaned, and/or thoroughly scrubbed down by yeshiva bachorim.

By Old Rockin' Dave (not verified) on 24 Apr 2016 #permalink

Daniel Corcos: The passage of time may have caused to substitute "a" for "de", but my French teachers, native speakers all, did indeed rhyme "tous" and "plus", both with the s silent.

By Old Rockin' Dave (not verified) on 24 Apr 2016 #permalink