The annals of “I’m not antivaccine,” part 19: Del Bigtree and Polly Tommey edition

It’s been a while since I paid attention to the movie, but the publicity among the antivaccine movement for Andrew Wakefield’s and Del Bigtree’s movie VAXXED: From Cover-Up to Catastrophe continues apace. Sadly, I missed my opportunity to see Bigtree himself doing a Q&A for the movie when it rolled through Detroit a a week and a half ago, mainly (1) the evening Del Bigtree and Polly Tommey rolled through my neck of the woods happened to coincide with a day that I had to drive to Saginaw for a 7:30 AM talk (hint: it’s nearly a two hour drive from where I live) and then had to give a talk at our 5 PM cancer committee meeting and (2) I didn’t want to give Wakefield and Bigtree any of my hard-earned cash for their antivaccine propaganda film. In retrospect, perhaps I should have made a greater effort to attend, but I was just too tired at the end of the day to be willing to drive the 12 miles or so to the theater and potentially get into a sparring match with some antivaccine activists. Maybe next time. Or not.

My admission of human weakness aside, even as I maintain a pseudonym that is the name of a supercomputer from an old British science fiction television show, if there’s one thing the producers of VAXXED keep trying to convince reasonable people (you know, the people who aren’t antivaccine loons), it’s that they aren’t antivaccine themselves. Oh, no. Borrowing a page from the Jenny McCarthy playbook, Bigtree and company are frantically trying to paint themselves as vaccine safety advocates instead of the antivaccine nutters (to borrow a British word, given the involvement of Tommey and Wakefield) that they really are. The problem is, they keep doing Periscope videos that reveal that claim to be a delusion or lie. Certainly it’s not the truth. For example, the other day, they recorded a Periscope video in Atlanta. (Don’t worry, I downloaded it for when it disappears. Oddly enough, Periscope seems to be allowing videos to remain more than 24 hours right now. I don’t know how much longer, but it appears to be at least four days.)

In any case, Tommey and Bigtree are clearly sitting outside of a hotel lounge. They’re in rather poor light, with the bar televisions visible behind them, and they’re talking—what else?—vaccines. They’re also being very, very antivaccine.

For example, early on in the video Tommey describes a radio interview she did:

This one guy called in, and he says, “I have a four year old daughter who’s unvaccinated. Everything’s great. But now I have to vaccinate her.” And I couldn’t get him to say, “No you don’t have to vaccinate her.”

Here’s the thing. Parents are so worried—well, they should be worried; they’re in California. There’s no school, no job, no house, no anything worth putting a vaccine in your child, and it doesn’t seem to be sinking in, and I’m not judging, because I used to be that person. I mean, he saw VAXXED; yet he still says , “I live in California. I’m going to have to vaccinate my child.”

But, no, Tommey’s not antivaccine. Oh, no. She just thinks that nothing is worth vaccinating your child for.

Bigtree chimes in, and he’s no better. First of all, he regurgitates the misinformation that the “CDC whistleblower,” William W. Thompson had confirmed that the MMR vaccine causes autism and that the CDC was covering it up. Clearly, Bigtree is impervious to facts, because that is not what happened. The most you can say about what Thompson said was that he disagreed with not fully reporting a result that was almost certainly spurious. He never said the CDC committed fraud. He never said that vaccines cause autism. He just said that he thinks the spurious result should be followed up on. Showing his ignorance, Bigtree throws a reference to thimerosal, the mercury-containing preservative that was in some childhood vaccines until 2002 but never in the MMR. It's still in some flu vaccines (for which thimerosal-free versions are available) but no other childhood vaccines.

This inspired Polley to double down by saying:

Say your child’s four years old, with no vaccines, and she’s doing really well and then saying, oh, well California law says you have to vaccinate him. You don’t have to do jack shit. Don’t take your child to school. I know it’s awful. They’ve got their friends, you’ve got your friends there. But it’s just not worth it.

But Polley’s not antivaccine. Oh, no. How dare you call her antivaccine?

Not to be outdone, Bigtree chimes in:

I mean, you kind of have to think about it like this. Well, we’re going to have to the right hand off of every child before they can go to school; so I guess I have to do it. It’s time for school. I mean, at a certain point, what is the safety of the child? Is their education—I mean, it’s really fascinating when you think about it. School is all about the development of their brain, the development of their mind. That’s what school is for. And you look at one of the major side effects of these vaccines is destruction of the brain, destruction of the mind. So yes, you’ve got your child in school, but they’re not thriving there because you’ve injured their brain with a vaccine.

But Bigtree’s not antivaccine. Not at all. Perish the thought! He just likens vaccination to cutting off a child’s right hand and believes that vaccines destroy children’s brains.

Polley and Bigtree are very unhappy with Senator Richard Pan. Of course, antivaccinationists hate Senator Pan with a passion, because he was one of the two California senators who spearheaded the passage of SB 277, the California law that eliminates nonmedical exemptions to school vaccine mandates. Indeed, the level of demonization Sen. Pan has endured is astonishing, so much so that what I’m putting up with now from a certain well-known Internet crank seems pretty tame in comparison. In any case, Bigtree bemoans how people on Senator Pan’s Facebook page allegedly treat parents of children with autism. No, those of us who are pro-vaccine don’t criticize parents of children with autism unnecessarily. Certainly I don’t. In particular, I try not to be too hard on antivaccine parents of children with autism who have been misled by antivaccine misinformation. I have nothing but empathy for such parents’ difficulties and have said many times I don’t know if I’d have what it takes to do what many of them do.

However, we do criticize the parents of children with autism who actively promote dangerous antivaccine pseudoscience. Let’s face it. The leaders of the antivaccine movement (like Polly Tommey) often have special needs children. Even as we have empathy for the good they do raising their children, on the other hand having a child with autism is not a free pass to spew antivaccine misinformation without criticism. They do not get to hold up their children with autism—and, make no mistake, that is what some of them do—as shields against criticism when they go around promoting antivaccine misinformation. I’m sorry. They just don’t.

Hilariously, Bigtree says that the antivaccine movement (I know, I know, he doesn’t call it that) has to “take the high road.” He claims he wants his critics to meet him on the “level of science and truth.” I couldn’t help but think that, sure, that would be nice, but what planet is he living on? The only time anything in VAXXED resembles “science and truth” is by coincidence, and even then Bigtree and Wakefield did their best to twist everything to promote antivaccine pseudocience. After all, just take a look at what our friend from Austin (not Andrew Wakefield) has been saying about me.

Bigtree’s call to “take the high road” is even funnier and more hypocritical based on what happened the other day:

On Monday, Vaxxed producer Del Bigtree arrived at Pan’s office without an appointment to talk. After Pan exited without granting an audience, Bigtree pursued him down a hallway.

“He darted out,” Bigtree said in a followup interview during which he linked “defective” vaccines to rising autism rates. “You’d think people wouldn’t be wanting to put children in harm’s way, and that’s what we believe Sen. Pan has done.”

Posts recounting the incident, including a video, have circulated among vaccine skeptics who have gleefully promoted the hashtag #PanRan (they’ve also leveled more threats; one wrote on Facebook she hopes Pan gets hit by a bus).

Here’s the video Bigtree made:

PAN RUN_Vimeo from Francesca Alesse on Vimeo.

Basically, Bigtree knows that this sort of ambush puts the subject in a very difficult situation. If the subject stays to talk, he’ll be harangued by cranks on camera until he’s forced to turn his back and get to work again. (And, make no mistake, Bigtree and Wakefield are cranks.) If the subject walks briskly away, he’s accused of running away, and Bigtree gets to come up with a cutesy hashtag like #PanRan. Don’t get me wrong; there’s a role for the “ambush” in journalism, but Bigtree and Wakefield are not journalists. It is very clear from how they approached their “ambush” and what they did afterward that they had no desire to illuminate a topic, have an honest dialogue, or get answers to report. They weren’t doing anything resembling legitimate journalism. They were all about propaganda, given that VAXXED is a propaganda film.

I do have to admit that Pan’s communications director Shannan (Velayas) Martinez did about as well as she could against this sort of stalking:

Of course, one can’t resist pointing out a bit of irony here, as 12 years ago, it was Wakefield running from questions:

Again, whatever you think of the “ambush” interview (and, again, sometimes they are very effective tools in the armamentarium of a real journalist like Deer, but they can also be misused), Wakefield, as always, is a hypocrite. When he turns his back on a journalist and walks briskly away to avoid an interview, he views it as completely justified. When Pan turns his back to decline an interview, he’s a coward. Wakefield never changes.

As much as Bigtree, Tommey, and Wakefield try to deny that they are antivaccine, they can’t help but let their antivaccine freak flag fly by likening vaccines to cutting off children’s right hands and insisting that nothing is worth vaccinating your child. If that’s not antivaccine, I don’t know what is.

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Of course the best example of this kind of bullshit doorstepping is the legendary clip of Bart Sibrel hounding Buzz Aldrin. I don't advocate punching Wakefield's lights out, but I don't think I would be the only one to laugh out loud if it happened.

By Guy Chapman (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

I'll admit I got a laugh out of Ms. Velayas's tweets. Healthy adults should be able to handle a flight of stairs without trouble. Del Bigtree apparently wasn't. And he's the one saying that vaccines damage people's health.

By Eric Lund (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

You're not that bright, Orac. Take Polly (as an example)... Fully trusted doctors (NOT anti-vaccine), child's health is destroyed within a day / few days of vaccinations, becomes concerned about safety of vaccines... Rightly so! Is that being "anti-vaccine" or a intelligent human being? People (you) would put me in the category of "anti-vaccine" (no doubt) and yet, I simply tell people to research the vaccines and their ingredients, spread out vaccines as much as you can, reject the crazy ones (hep b at birth, flu, etc). When you make these kinds of posts, it is fair game to call you a pharma shill. Whether you are or aren't, I'm not sure but the comparison between the name calling game is the same. I think if we could ever have safety tests and non-fraudulent studies done on vaccines, I would be willing to give a newborn a small few vaccines (possibly 3), until then though... Why would I trust that broken system? And hilarious that you supposedly had better things to do than go to a screening and / or Q/A for the movie? Do you expect people that? Lol. Please...

@JoeyC: About those "fully trusted doctors". Even if they exist (and frankly that is a big if, most of them turn out to be the Bob Sears types), they are outweighed hundreds of thousands to one by equally trusted doctors who fully support immunisation.

That's part of the problem with anti-vax bullshit: it relies on the idea that a tiny handful of people with vested interests and usually no actual expertise, are the Bringers of Truth, while a huge array of doctors, medical scientists, health policy experts and others from countries at every part of the political spectrum, are all part of a vast conspiracy to hide The Truth(TM).

By Guy Chapman (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Joey C (not verified)

Last sentence should be: "Do you expect people to believe that?"

There is a lot of fun being had about that video on twittersphere. Bigtree and Wakefield are coming off second best from the show.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

Bigtree ran DOWN a flight of stairs and was winded. I expected him to be running UP. That is hilarious.

Is that a "Max Factor" t-shirt that Polly Tommey is wearing? If so, you'd think the company would pay her $$$ not to. She's evidently a mascara junkie, but there are limits.

Although maybe the t-shirt actually says "Antivax Freak".

And that'll be my NastyPost for the day.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

@Eric Lund, #2: I expect Mr. Bigtree has been vaccinated as a child. That must be why he's winded. See, vaccines are bad for your health.

Of course, I expect Dr. Pan is up to date. Hmmm.

By Dorit Reiss (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

So far, I don't know too much about BIgtree: what's in it for him?

I said that he met Andy at a fundraiser in LA a while ago
( most likely that event Orac wrote about- I think it had a red carpet ). Del claims that he left his work as a television producer in order to make this film. which sounds rather odd- did he mean *temporarily* or permanently - perhaps seeing this as a way to break into film making. He said he thought it was a Watergate type opportunity. Bigger, even IIRC.

We don't know if he is motivated like many anti-vax parents: does he have a child with autism or is there one in his immediate family? I once speculated that all the anti-vaxxers I knew about either had a child or grandchild with autism or offered an altie treatment ( except for Jake, of course, who has AS).

Did he really think that this film would offer him money, exposure or career opportunities? From what I know about woo-fraught documentaries it seems that the director/ chief woo can sometimes finagle students or newbies to work for nearly nothing because it will fill their empty resumes. Del ain't no newcomer- he's over 40.

And seriously, hasn't Dr Pan been threatened because of the vaccination law? I doubt he would feel comfortable with several people harassing him in his office.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

@ Joey C

Your points would be better received if they had some sort of rationale behind them.

spread out vaccines as much as you can,

Why?
What is the expected benefit?
As far as any serious scientific research has shown, spacing out vaccines has no benefit (aside from making more trips to be doctor).
OTOH, if you delay a vaccine for 1 month, that's one month more to have chance to catch the wild form of the disease the vaccine should be protecting you against.

reject the crazy ones (hep b at birth, flu, etc).

Explain why these are crazy. Be specific.

I think if we could ever have safety tests and non-fraudulent studies done on vaccines,

Define which safety tests would make you trusting vaccines. Define what characterize a non-fraudulent study. Does a study funded by the NIH will be OK? A study from another country than the US?
If you ask for a double-blind study, would you volunteer your children to be injected some random solution?

I would be willing to give a newborn a small few vaccines (possibly 3)

That's no different, or little different from your current position (space out vaccines, reject "crazy ones").
In other words, no matter what we show you, your opinion won't change.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

@ Dangerous Bacon:

Ha! Max Factor!

Unfortunately many OTHER companies are selling product that produces a great wad of black gum that's supposed to look like thicker, longer lashes altho' the trend has ameliorated somewhat recently.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

Polly Tommey and Del Bigtree are not antivaccine, in my opinion, but simply coping with sensory and information overload from the VAXXED experience.

Furthermore, Mrs.Tommey and Mr. Bigtree are aggressive vaccine-safety advocates trying to affect the issue of forced vaccinations with respect to parental rights.

In simplification, Polly and Del believe vaccines can do harm and present their point-of-view with passion and purpose.

@Orac,

Good article, Thx.

By Michael J. Dochniak (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

I should note that I am very pleased that our peerless leader doesn't want to pay money for woo.

I've managed to NOT spend any money for my activities altho' I did spend a little in the 1990s when I attended presentations about New Agey topics including yoga and t'ai chi- a few did feature exercise classes so I felt that it wasn't as bad.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

Helianthus @11

Is there not research (someone will be along to enlighten me no doubt) which shows that spreading out vaccines or using single dose instead of multi-dose (separate measles, mumps and rubella vax instead of MMR, for example) causes a reduction in uptake?

And I join you in wanting to know why giving flu or Hep B vax to babies is "crazy".

I don't see Pan running - I see him walking (briskly) away. The camera is mainly shooting Del Bigotry's back.

By Rebecca Fisher (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

He said he thought it was a Watergate type opportunity. Bigger, even IIRC.

And like so many Woodward/Bernstein wannabes, Bigtree ended up looking like Geraldo when they opened Al Capone's vault. Which Bigtree could have avoided if he had actually followed Deep Throat's advice to "follow the money"--he would have seen that there isn't that much in it for Big Pharma, and looked for something with a more promising angle. Preferably without looking like the Bloom County Beacon's interactions with Senator Bedfellow in early 1980s Bloom County strips.

By Eric Lund (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

In addition to being an antivaxx nutter, Polly Tommey shamelessly exploits her autistic son for her own gain. Typical of these people who don't think their children have a right to privacy nor dignity. Her daughter Bella is just as bad.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

Tomney's son is still in her custody? He ought to be removed from the home for his safety- she already murdered one autistic boy. Can anyone explain why she's not in jail? I'm sure there's a law against inciting and encouraging murder.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

There is another video from the Vaxxed team that is interesting. This is what it is like to debate Del. He interrupts and badgers and refuses to consider any evidence contrary to his opinions. In his mind, the Thompson et al CDC study is THE definitive autism study upon which all other studies are based and it is fraudulent and nothing else matters.

https://www.facebook.com/vaxxedthemovie/videos/593332574177783/

Helianthus and Murmur: I think Joey fell for that old canard that Hep B is sexually transmitted, and is completely unaware that there are actually three strains.
For some reason, that particular trope drives me up the wall, probably because I knew there were three different strains before I graduated from high school, (I dunno where I found that out, exactly, but not the point), and these are, supposedly, educated adults who can't be bothered to even google Hep B or refer back to their high school health notes.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

child’s health is destroyed develops autism within a day / few days of vaccinations....

Do you expect people to believe that?

FTFY.

"Three strains", PgP #21? HBc, HBe, and HBs are not 'strains' but gene proteins. Variants and mutations of the virus are a continuum differing from person to person. Perhaps you were thinking of HepA, HepB, HepC, and HepD?? No, wait. That's four... Never mind.

You know what's worse than forced vaccination? Forced education!!!

" (Ontario) Health Minister Eric Hoskins tabled a bill Thursday that would, if passed, require any parent filing religious or moral objections (to vaccination) to complete a course intended to inform them of the importance of immunization, the dangers of foregoing it and the purpose of “herd immunity.”

"The bill lands the same week as nearly 600 students were suspended from school in Waterloo Region, according to CTV Kitchener, for outdated or incomplete vaccination records and amid a chicken pox outbreak in Michigan and a whooping cough outbreak in Alberta."

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/ontario-pare…

As to learning about herd immunity, I'm reminded of a classic antivaxer post I once encountered, in which the person complained the using the term was insulting, as it compared humans to cattle.

Wake up, sheeple!

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

Dangerous Bacon "Wake up, sheeple!"

To what????

BTW the Health Minister has a very good grounding in these matters:
D.Phil. and Rhodes Scholar, University of Oxford, 1994
Graduate Degree, London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine, 1988
Graduate Degree, University of Aberdeen, 1988
MD, McMaster University , 1985
B.Sc, McMaster University, 1981

By Ross Miles (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

@ Denice #10

I've figured Bigtree got into this mainly as a career move, hoping it would make his name as some sort of film/video auteur. Thus, yes, I think he thought Vaxxed would bring him exposure , opportunities and money – though not cash in his pocket but funding for other projects. Delusional, maybe, but hardy uncommon in the film world.

However, there does seem to be something else behind his passion for this particular project. You'd think if someone in hiss life had suffered from 'autism blight' he'd say so. Maybe he's an anti-government CT nutter who hates the CDC, FDA etc. etc. Just guessing at what his angst might be, but I'm pretty confident there must be one. Even within the sensationalist genre, his behavior is a bit over the top for a film producer trying to make the big time.

One thing we can say is that he probably didn't learn about anti-vax from a recent meeting with Andy. He worked with Jim Sears for years on 'The Doctors', and Jim is featured in the trailer for Vaxxed. I assume Jim Sears introduced him to Bob Sears, and Bob then got Del and Andy hooked up. The Sears connection likely accounts for Vaxxed putting the 'delay the schedule' line over the 'don't vaccinate at all' line. This makes the 'vaccine safety' claim more credible, but it seems obvious that's just a strategic move, and one the hardcore AVs like Tommey only went along with grumbling and biting their lip – thus leading to stuff like the hotel video Orac discussed where they let their guard down and the full anti-vax flag waves high.

Say your child’s four years old, with no vaccines, and she’s doing really well and then saying, oh, well California law says you have to vaccinate him. You don’t have to do jack shit. Don’t take your child to school.

To be fair, at least Bigtree and Polly seem to have a more accurate understanding of SB277 than most of the people whining about "compulsory" vaccination.

Take Polly (as an example)… Fully trusted doctors (NOT anti-vaccine), child’s health is destroyed within a day / few days of vaccinations, becomes concerned about safety of vaccines… Rightly so!

It's funny - I hear this tidy, edited little story again and again, but in the relatively few instances where I'm able to verify any of the info, it's never true. Literally not one time. The real story always turns out to be some variation on "kid gets shots -> kid has perfectly normal and fairly common reaction (fussiness, fever, etc.) -> kid recovers fully -> at some later point (often months to years) kid is diagnosed with autism (or any of the rapidly-growing grab bag of illnesses people are attributing to vaccines these days) -> parent encounters antivaccine info and starts "thinking back" (i.e., reconstructing memories to incorporate this new info) -> parent decides kid was "never the same" after vaccines -> parent edits out all those messy middle parts and starts telling the "I took a normal kid to the doctor's office for his/her shots and took a broken kid home" version of the story.

@Ross Miles: DB is being funny. He's pro-vaccine, really.

@DB #23

I actually dislike that move. Too easy to liken it to the US-based moves to impose "information sessions" to women wishing to have an abortion. I also think it would not change that many minds.

I'm all for more information to parents. My move would be to completely ban religious and moral exemptions, then provide the course to all that wants it, including on-the-fence parents and those who want an exemption and want to know why it's not a good idea. There should also be a course on how to spread the word.

The forced course would add a barrier, so would probably increase uptake, but would not prevent parents with already established ideas to go for moral and religious exemptions.

For the record: I am against mandatory re-education camps in which recalcitrant Canadians would be held until they developed a sense of humor.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

@DB: need the /sarcasm or /humor tag? I've got a few here from recent encounters!

@ Helianthus #11

Oh my... Spread them out so you limit possible side effects. Are we so far apart in our beliefs that even that simple point is confusing to you? It's as if I go to my doctor and they want to know what meds I am on before prescribing another one. Or, in the case of a child... Say my child comes home from school feeling unwell but unable to put into words what specifically is wrong. Do I simply give her a dose of Advil, a dose of Tylenol, a dose of cough syrup and a dose of antibiotics all at once just to be sure and send her off to play while hoping for the best? Of course not. We, in my opinion, need to stop looking at these vaccines as these wonder drugs with side effects. They are medical interventions, pharma drugs, whatever you wish to call them... They come with dangers and side effects.

As to your point about safety studies... You do have a point there in terms of my ability to trust any safety studies... It is very true that I would have a difficult time at this point trusting any safety studies (knowing what I know now).

And come on... Hep B vaccine... You really need specifics on why that is a crazy one to give to newborns? I really can't be bothered...

Above should say "wonder drugs without side effects"

Did he really think that this film would offer him money, exposure or career opportunities? From what I know about woo-fraught documentaries it seems that the director/ chief woo can sometimes finagle students or newbies to work for nearly nothing because it will fill their empty resumes. Del ain’t no newcomer- he’s over 40.

I strongly suspect that Bigass didn't leave The Doctors on his own and hooking up with Andy was his only real career path. That and probably an ignorant noggin full of conspiracy theories and his own self importance.

By Science Momss (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

In simplification, Polly and Del believe vaccines can do harm and present their point-of-view with passion and purpose.

"point of view" is the oddest spelling of lies and misinformation I've ever seen. But then you don't really care about facts or truth do you mjd?

He ought to be removed from the home for his safety- she already murdered one autistic boy.

Huh?

I think Joey fell for that old canard that Hep B is sexually transmitted, and is completely unaware that there are actually three strains.

Huh?

By Science Mom (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

@ Science Mom:

I wondered about that as well: why leave an at least semi-lucrative regular job in television to do a one-time docu by a non-well known film maker. Maybe his contract wasn't renewed or suchlike.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

Maybe you should meet with them or see the movie before you write your 1 sided article. There is corruption at the CDC and instead of bringing attention to the corruption you mock parents with Vaccine injured children. How humane of you. Now unless you were the one that conducted the study, why wouldn't you want to dig deeper into things?

What's most disturbing to me is that in our free-thinking country, questioning and investigating the truth about something is welcomed and expected - questioning religious beliefs, questioning the pros/cons of organic, genetically modified or processed food, questioning our government and the politicians that run it, etc. But as soon as it comes to questioning and investigating vaccines, there's an automatic stonewall and immediate social shutdown without any room for flexibility in opinions. This is very disturbing and extremely telling that something isn't right here. I just hope that the day will come where the cover gets blown and those responsible will be held accountable for all the harm that's being caused and covered up. Remember vaccines are a product for powerful businesses to which injured or killed people are only a statistic and collateral damage. Not nearly as many as you think have you or your children's best interests in mind.

A. If you had followed our host's blog you would see that he had carefully examined the claims of the cdcwhistleblower manufactroversy multiple times. And explained why Wakefield's version doesn't hold water.

B. If you read this post, you would see this is not about mocking parents of any type of children.
But you can't promote anti vaccine misinformation and claim immunity from criticism or countering by claiming your child is vaccine injured.if you are going to promote misinformation designed to scare parents from protecting their kids from disease the responsible thing to do is counter it. Because you're putting others at risk.

C. I saw Vaxxed. It added nothing new to previous claims and tactics. And had a lot of misinformation, like the claim that vaccines are not tested, like misrepresenting the study in question and the Thompson documents and calls, as Dr. Matt Carey also detailed, and like ignoring the many studies from all over showing MMR doesn't cause autism.

The only misrepresentations and problematic treatment of information I see so far is on the part of Hooker, Wakefield, and potentially the other makers of Vaxxed.

The movie did take the misuse of children to new levels. Like the many videos of children with autism at their most vulnerable, or the child made to tell his parents not to vaccinate his 18 months old sister against measles, mumps or rubella.

By Dorit Reiss (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

In reply to by #Vaxxed (not verified)

Science Mom: Don't tell me you forgot the Alex Spourdalakis case. Tommey was all over the mother, and so was Lisa Goes and Wakefield. While they didn't actually murder Alex, and all three were out of town when the deed was down, I hold them as responsible for Alex's murder as the mother and godmother.
They convinced Mrs. Spourdalakis that Alex's life was worthless, and left her and the godmother high and dry, knowing what would happen. And logically, if Tommey thought Alex was worthless, what does that say about what she thinks of her son?

As for the Hepatitis thing, people continually mix up Hep B and Hep C, and believe that Hep B is only a disease of the unclean- not that hep c should indicate anything other than being unlucky.But because hep c can be sexually transmitted, most of the hard-of-thinking assume that is true of the other sorts of hepatitis.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

@DW and Science Mom: of course, there's absolutely no possible way to get Hep B besides sex and needle sharing, doncha know? And toddlers never bite each other or get cut and bleed. I have to say, it's obvious "joey" doesn't know anything about Hep B and ways of transmission besides teh seks.

Joey C really has some good points, which can be applied to other "wonder drugs".

For instance, I wonder why physicians don't spread out antibiotic doses in smaller amounts to limit side effects.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

@Joey C #33 - The problem is that you're trying to apply your idea of "common sense" to vaccination without appearing to have the slightest idea of what vaccines are or how they work. Vaccines aren't like common drugs that stimulate or block receptors, mimic hormones, etc., so they operate under entirely different principles of dosing, pharmaceutical kinetics, etc. No matter how many vaccines you give someone, you can only have one systemic immune response at a time. Multivalent vaccines have to be carefully formulated, not because they could "overwhelm" the immune system, but because the immune system's usual response to being presented with multiple antigens at once (which is what happens every time you're exposed to a foreign organism) is to ignore most of them and concentrate and the most immunogenic epitopes, which may or may not be the most effective for generating neutralizing antibodies (which is the mechanism of protection for nearly all of the vaccines currently in common use.) Ditto the practice of giving multiple vaccines at once - you have to give them in different locations so the antigens go to different draining lymph nodes and are "seen" by different pools of naive T cells. And, again, they have to test different combinations to make sure the immune response to one doesn't actually inhibit the immune response to the others, not because giving 4 vaccines is somehow going to result in 4 times as much fever, malaise, etc. - the immune response simply isn't additive like that.

And as for the Hep B vaccine - it's given to newborns because the earlier you contract the virus the more likely it is to become a potentially deadly chronic illness - and most people with chronic Hep B didn't have any known risk factors, so it's not as simple as testing the mother and not letting the baby have unprotected sex or use IV drugs.

TL;DR: you don't know what you're talking about.

Ross: DB was being ironic.

The thing is, 'herd immunity' IS insulting, as it reflects that from an immunological perspective, human beings are functionally the same as sheep. The connotations of that may be 'unintentional', but they're there. That this term came into standard use, betrays, at the minimum, cluelessness (if not callousness) in the 'scientific community'. Anti-vax aside, if you want to encourage immunization, you have to think of how any parent is likely to react to the notion their child is part of a 'herd'.

Now, add in the 'freedumb' ideology behind the pejorative 'sheeple', and 'herd immunity' just confirms the libertarian bias that Big Guvment is out to destroy all individuality and reduce everyone into some malleable passive gray mass. Anyone still using that language is simply being irresponsible. Anything else -- 'community immunity', 'group immunity', whatever, is not just an improvement, but a necessary due diligence to the political realities of promoting public health.

Don’t tell me you forgot the Alex Spourdalakis case.

Of course not but such hyperbole doesn't help and is stooping to the same level that Wakefield et al. engage in regarding the murder of Alex.

As for the Hepatitis thing, people continually mix up Hep B and Hep C, and believe that Hep B is only a disease of the unclean- not that hep c should indicate anything other than being unlucky.But because hep c can be sexually transmitted, most of the hard-of-thinking assume that is true of the other sorts of hepatitis.

Hep C, A and others are not strains of Hep B. They are distinct viruses and named so because of what they cause, not their genetic relatedness. Currently only Hep B and Hep A have vaccines to prevent them.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

@ MI Dawn:

That wasn't me discussing Hep B but I agree.
That's why an early vaccine makes sense.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

That this term [herd immunity] came into standard use, betrays, at the minimum, cluelessness (if not callousness) in the ‘scientific community’. Anti-vax aside, if you want to encourage immunization, you have to think of how any parent is likely to react to the notion their child is part of a ‘herd’.

I know antivaxxers talk as if the entire concept of "herd immunity" was made up just to guilt people into vaccinating, but (as usual) they're wrong: the term was actually coined in the 1930s to explain the observation that measles cases declined in the years immediately following an outbreak (this was before the measles vaccine was developed, so obviously encouraging vaccine uptake wasn't an issue.) Someone, I forget who, has proposed using the term "community immunity" in order to avoid the negative connotations of "herd," but of course once a term is established it's difficult to change (especially in science. As someone (don't know this one's name either) once observed, "scientists would sooner use each other's toothbrushes than each other's nomenclature.")

Robert Heinlein stated that ignorance is its own death penalty. Unfortunately, many that have this death penalty inflicted on them are children that had no choice in the matter.

Sarah, if the minions start using community or group immunity instead of herd; we may slowly change which term is used,

I know antivaxxers talk as if the entire concept of “herd immunity” was made up just to guilt people into vaccinating....

Don't forget the rank hypocrisy of invoking not just "cyclic diseases," but also the complaint that the varicella vaccine will result in more shingles cases as a result of the lack of "natural boosting."

As I've said before, the notion of depending of the sickness of others to maintain one's own health, rather than getting a freaking booster, strikes me as utterly rancid.

Sadmar, see

Topley WWC, Wilson GS. The spread of bacterial infection: the problem of herd immunity. J Hyg 1923;21:243-9.

The experiments were designed to investigate "immunity as an attribute of a herd . . as a separate problem, closely related to, but in many ways distinct from, the problem of immunity of an individual host.

I could find no evidence that the mice in the studied colony were offended by the reference to a "herd."

^ "depending of on"

Hep C, A and others are not strains of Hep B. They are distinct viruses and named so because of what they cause, not their genetic relatedness.

Indeed. The hepatitis A and C viruses aren't even in the same family (or Baltimore class).

Thanks for hipping me to his.

^ "to this"

Usual cat-on-arm excuse.

SM and Denice:

I have no inside info, but given that Jim Sears is in Vaxxed I'd guess he and Bigtree are buds, and thus Del's departure from The Doctors might have something to do with Dr. Jim getting eased out from the show after the tabloids picked up the story he was being investigated by the police for threatening his girlfriend's ex. Whether Bigtree was pushed or jumped, it was probably a 'personal' thing with the executive producers, and wouldn't have affected his chances of landing a similar gig at another daytime talk-show.

Just producing Vaxxed wouldn't have hurt future employment opportunities in his old line of work, either. He's probably burning some bridges by being so visible and contentious a spokesman for the film. He may be trying to move from a behind-the-camera role to one in-front-of-the-camera. I'd guess the odds of success for that would be low, but stranger things have happened.

Anti-vaxxers.....big on research...not big on comprehension.

By NumberWang (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

For instance, I wonder why physicians don’t spread out antibiotic doses in smaller amounts to limit side effects.

Surgery would similarly benefit if the operation and the administration of anaesthetics were spread out over a much longer period.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

@ Dorit

You seem to think you know it all. You are all over the place in every article with your comments and Pans page. What is your obsession? You are a professor of law and nothing more. I would love to see YOUR study on Vaccinated vs. Unvaccinated.

I highly doubt you saw Vaxxed. But keep sticking your kids with these poisons. Don't forget if you have not had all the 70 doses you yourself cannot claim to be fully vaccinated. Go troll elsewhere. YOU are part of the problem.

The thing is, ‘herd immunity’ IS insulting, as it reflects that from an immunological perspective, human beings are functionally the same as sheep.

Sadmar, you are incorrect. Sheep occur in flocks (or in some places in the world mobs), not herds.

The correct term that is used in professional settings is community immunity. Of course in the press and colloquial use the older term that referred, as others have stated, to the reduction of cases after an epidemic.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

I strongly suspect that Bigass didn’t leave The Doctors on his own and hooking up with Andy was his only real career path. That and probably an ignorant noggin full of conspiracy theories and his own self importance.

This exactly. Particularly the last part. Aided and abetted by the blandishments of that very minor celebrity Andrew Wakefield.

What strikes me as odd is that if Bigtree really wanted to do an ambush interview of Pan, what on earth was he doing letting Andrew Wakefield tag along.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

@ Dorit

You seem to think you know it all.

This is what a proper education and proper research gets you. Proper knowledge. As opposed to your Google education and Google research.

Of course, Dorit does not think she knows it all. She will quite comfortably tell you which areas she has no expertise in. Unlike the anti-vax commentariat , who don't recognise their lack of expertise.

Lastly, it is unnecessary to sit through the pile of bilge that is Vaxxed to know that it is a pile of bilge. One merely needs to view the various snippets that are online and understand the incorrect arguments the film is making.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

Don’t forget if you have not had all the 70 doses you yourself cannot claim to be fully vaccinated.

I've had all my childhood vaccines at least 3x. Have also had vaccines not on my country's current schedule, to include TB, yellow fever (3x), typhoid, and one or two more I'm probably forgetting. Does my opinion now old weight to you?

"You seem to think you know it all. You are all over the place in every article with your comments and Pans page. What is your obsession? You are a professor of law and nothing more. I would love to see YOUR study on Vaccinated vs. Unvaccinated."

I am not sure why it's so surprising that a parent would be concerned about anti-vaccine misinformation. I wish more parents would speak up. This is dangerous to our kids.

As to Dr. Pan, he earned my respect in his work to pass SB277, and in the way he stood up - and still does - to anti-vaccine harassment. It is disturbing to see the vicious attacks on him on his page, so naturally, like other pro-vaccine advocates, I do my best to respond to these attacks.

As you point out, I'm a professor of law - with neither the training nor the ability to do any type of scientific study. But when it comes to vaccine safety, luckily we have many, many studies from all around the world, stretching back decades. When experts say that vaccines are safe and effective, they base it on that large body of studies from all over. If you want to challenge that literature, you should have some reasonable basis. Vaxxed doesn't provide one.

I've seen Vaxxed, thank you. In New York, with one other person in the theater. I've referred to some of the content above, but really, whether you believe me or not doesn't matter. As Chris pointed out, and as Matt Carey pointed out, since the content of Vaxxed is no secret, you can point out its problems without seeing it.

If you think Vaxxed adds anything to the claims made in the alternative media about the CDCwhistleblower manufactroversy since 2014, please point what exactly is new in the movie. Because really, my best assessment is that it has no new claim. The same old - and debunked - claims in a slicker package.

I certainly intend to keep protecting my children from disease. I owe them no less.

As to being up to date, to remind you, the schedule is not similar between adults and children. For a reason. Some vaccines are more important in certain age groups than others. I am up to date. I suggest examining the different schedules, and making sure that you, too, are fully protected from disease.

By Dorit Reiss (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Delphine (not verified)

all the 70 doses
Suspicious minds cannot help wondering whether this figure is another example of AntiVax New Maths.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

When he was asked about how vaccines are tested for safety, Wakefield spewed this nonsense during the Q&A following the New York Premier of Vaxxed at the Angelica Theater:

Let's just take measles vaccine, the live-virus vaccine, the World Health Organization recommendations to the phamaceutical industry for testing these vaccines before they are put into trial in children. They recommend that you take primates, non-human primates, monkeys, and that you take no fewer than ten animals. You inject these animals with the virus for the vaccine, not the vaccine itself but the virus of the vaccine. You don't inject them subcutaneously, you put the injection directly into the thalamus of the brain. You then observe these animals for neurological signs over the next 17 to 21 days, and then you terminate the animals, and then you look at their brains under the microscope. If an animal dies in the first 48 hours,
you can replace it in the study. It's not the vaccines fault, it's the animal's fault for dying. If more than 20% of the animals during that study, then you can quit the study and start all over again. It's the animals' fault, not the vaccines fault.

Now, there are no controls. There are no animals that have saline injected into their thalamus in place of the virus. That is the basis, after that has been done, then it is safe to go into children.

Anyone who still wonders if Wakefield is anti-vaccine should listen to him lie, beginning at about the 20:35 mark:

httphttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2AAvwbERCYs://www.youtube.com/watch?v=…

I'm not even a state legislator, but if anyone dared to show up at my office without an appointment, they would get kicked right down the hall. I don't care if you're bringing the Ten Commandments down from the mount, have enough respect for my schedule to get a damn appointment.

By Garnetstar (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

I am really, really tempted to see if we can screen the movie at the school of public health, with Wakefield et al there. Except that we would pause it after each lie or misrepresentation to correct the record and ask Wakefield et al to explain themselves. I'm sure hilarity would ensue.
Maybe something to look forward to next fall?

They don't deserve to be able to say they spoke at John Hopkins.

No matter how badly it goes it will give them undeserved legitimacy.

By Dorit Reiss (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

You seem to think you know it all. You are all over the place in every article with your comments and Pans page. What is your obsession?

One would ask you the same given how many anti-vaxx comments are on Dr. Pan's page and every article on vaccines, you showing up here and your 'nym. Why is is good for your "side" but no others?

By Science Mom (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

They don’t deserve to be able to say they spoke at John Hopkins. No matter how badly it goes it will give them undeserved legitimacy.

Not really. They can say they spoke someplace if they just walk on campus. (Some AV folks rented a room at the University of Minnesota and tried to pass it off as an school-approved event...) All kinds of wighats get to speak at approved events in various university departments anyway. Anyone who knows academia understands that the context of the invite matters. Anyway, Andy would never accept an invitation to any possibly unfavorable venue. If he did take Hopkins up on a talk, he wouldn't be able to brag about it on the web afterwards, since he wouldn't want anyone to Google what happened at the event and find a detailed discussion of the films misrepresentations.

@Sarah A #45

You just gave a great description of some of the X's and O's of vaccines... Let me simply say, my stomach is turning... Your entire description sounds exactly what I know it to be... A mass experiment on babies. They have never tested all these vaccines together in the schedule they give them. Never. It's so very sad and tragic. I feel so helpless for all the poor families whose babies have been killed and maimed by these vaccines.

"They have never tested all these vaccines together in the schedule they give them. Never. "

That's just incorrect. Before a vaccine is added to the schedule, as part of the stage III trials, the vaccine's safety is examined on the background of the existing schedule, in what are called concomitant studies. In other words, to be licensed, you need to show that the vaccine is safe as part of the schedule. We have a lot of these studies now.

To remind you, extensive evidence shows that harms from vaccines -single or in combination - are very very rare. It's certainly sad for the few families whose babies are those harmed. It's also sad when a baby or child (or adult) is harmed and vaccines are blamed wrongly - but that shouldn't be used to attack vaccine, though it is.

We should sympathize with anyone whose family suffered a tragedy. And we should vaccinate on schedule unless there's a contraindications because that's the best way to prevent and minimize tragedies. Vaccinating is a lot safer than not vaccinating. And vaccinating on schedule is safer than not doing it.

By Dorit Reiss (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Joey C (not verified)

#67
Events were included in this list because of the seriousness or frequency of reporting. Because these events are reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their frequencies or to establish a causal relationship to components of Tripedia vaccine.

To set this matter in context, the same reporting mechanism includes a claim that vaccines grant super powers aka turning children into The Incredible Hulk.

By Robert L Bell (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

# 70: Ren

"I am really, really tempted to see if we can screen the movie at the school of public health, with Wakefield et al there. Except that we would pause it after each lie or misrepresentation to correct the record and ask Wakefield et al to explain themselves. I’m sure hilarity would ensue."

A lot of people have thought such things over the years. He would run rings round you, lie in terms that you would be unable to field his responses, video it, and do you significant damage.

When we first encountered him, in 2004, he refused to be interviewed by The Sunday Times unless the journalist investigating him - myself - wasn't present.

So three other journalists interviewed him. They simply didn't know what they didn't know, and were quite incapable of fielding his answers. I listened to the tapes recently, and even I was astonished by the way he will mislead.

I'll just give you a couple of examples from that time.

(a) He claimed that children for his Lancet paper were recruited in1995 - long before his legal contract, and hence couldn't have been recruited persuant to that contract.

The truth was, ONE child was seen - at a different hospital, on his recommendation - in 1995, and sent away as showing no signs of bowel disease.

In 1996, after he got his legal deal, he then solicited that child, had him brought to the Royal Free and scoped for the research.

(b) He claimed that there was nothing wrong with the legal sponsorship of his research, and cited another research project it had funded.

That other project, producing a paper in the BMJ, had written all over it how it was funded by legal aid and that subjects were litigants.

So, you think, as others have, that you can corner him, and you simply will not be able to.

The only people who got him were the General Medical Council lawyers, who boxed him in over weeks and weeks of testimony.

I could give you dozens and dozens of examples - some much more egregious.

By Brian Deer (not verified) on 13 May 2016 #permalink

@Brian Deer #77

Why are you still trying to insert yourself into this? You are old news and quite irrelevant. For a long time I listened to what others were saying about this and I wondered about Dr. Wakefield's integrity. Then, I actually READ the paper in the Lancet and my eyes were opened to the absurdity of it all and how Dr. Wakefield was harassed for no good reason. The paper tells the story. The paper NEVER concluded that vaccines (mmr) causes autism. It asked for more studies to be done. You apparently had a problem with that... What is wrong with you? Aren't there any other issues going on in the UK that you can fixate on?

Well, Joey, if you think you can evaluate Wakefield, or anything else by "actually" reading his paper and having your eyes opened, then you are a pretty naive individual.

Did you check the children's falsified diagnoses? Their concocted symptoms and signs. Did you learn how they were recruited? Did you check their involvement in anti-vaccine groups, and law firms before their selection? Did you discover Wakefield's contract with a firm of lawyers to create evidence against MMR? His patent application for a single measles vaccine, eight months before the paper was published?

Have you sat with parents of children in the study, directly accusing Wakefield of fraud: of fabricating information about their children? Do you hold hundreds of documents proving, beyond question, that his research findings were falsified and fabricated?

Huh? Any of that?

If not, you can read much of it here. I don't suppose you will, because you're one of those smart guys who can read words on a page and know if they're true or not.

http://briandeer.com/solved/slapp-amended-declaration.pdf

I don't "insert" myself. Wakefield keeps me inserted, with four lawsuits - all of which he has lost - and his relentless campaign of lying to mothers, and to those such as yourself, as his last refuge against ruin.

Don't you worry. I'm not going away.

By Brian Deer (not verified) on 14 May 2016 #permalink

@Brian Deer #79

Actually Brian, I have read it all... I've read Wakefield's book and listened to him speak in MANY conferences (via You Tube) and read/listened to your view as well... I look at both sides. Sorry to tell you, you come across as a nasty little gnat. Dr. Wakefield comes across as someone who actually listened to parents. Let's be clear here, this "issue" involves only a certain segment of the population. So, the difficulty in getting this topic out there and discussed in the mainstream is enormous... Because if I were a parent who went to the doctor and had my child vaccinated with 6 different vaccines and went home with no issues, I would have a hard time believing it as well. But the mmr IS dangerous to many, many children. You flitting around Dr. Wakefield all day like a gnat certainly doesn't change that.

At the end of the day, Dr. Wakefield is doing great good. He knows the science inside and out. People are listening to him and believing in him because they saw what happened with their children and/or they can see through the attacks on his character by a paid shill journalist like yourself. Honestly, you are a tiny, tiny speck on this story now... Look where we are today. Wakefield is opening up eyes left and right with an amazing story about total fraud at the CDC and you little Brian, are left sulking on Orac's blog. Oh how the "mighty journalist" has fallen.

"Why are you still trying to insert yourself into this? You are old news and quite irrelevant."

Said the clueless assclown. Why should anyone care about your opinion, Joey-boy?

@Moon #81

I imagine no one does care about my opinion, Moon. (Although I note that you apparently do since you responded). I'm a nobody in this and perfectly comfortable with that. Brian Deer is entitled to his opinion... I'm just saying that his opinion doesn't mean much in this controversy. It's the science (connection with mmr, bowel disease and autism) in conjunction with the facts about cdc fraud and corruption that really matter now. I also must say... Brian is still so fixated on the Lancet/Wakefield paper that he hasn't realized that the majority of people have moved way beyond that. That's old news now... Just shows how irrelevant Brian Deer has become. Is that the same over in the UK? Just wondering if people actually take him seriously over there? Anyone from the UK here?

It’s the science (connection with mmr, bowel disease and autism) in conjunction with the facts about cdc fraud and corruption that really matter now.

What science? What connection? There is literally no credible evidence of this, and a mountain of evidence to the contrary.

By Guy Chapman (not verified) on 15 May 2016 #permalink

In reply to by Joey C (not verified)

@Joey C, actually, the only place Wakefield has any real traction left is in the anti-vax crowd. For any time he goes near a proper reporter, which is something he tends to avoid like the plague nowadays, who isn't part of his circle he gets his rear handed handed him, like on Anderson Cooper.

On this side of the pond (UK), much of the press who were only too happy to print his proven fraudulent research back in the 90s are only too happy now to start off any article about him with his losing his medical licence, his fraudulent research and his unethical treatment of the children in his 'study'. Also, in the UK vaccine rates are climbing again now that the truth about Wakefield has filtered down into society more generally. Though that doesn't forgive the damage or the deaths that he is responsible for. And no, Wakefield isn't old news over here, though not in a positive sense for Wakefield as him and his fraudulent research is always brought up whenever we get another measles outbreak due to yet another enclave of unvaccinated children. Fortunately, with the uptick in MMR vaccination rates there is hope for the future but in the meantime we will still likely see the occasional outbreak over here.

Those in the know and who have followed this over the years tend to hold Brian Deer in high regard over here.

BTW, if Wakefiled was so right, how come he has lost all those cases against Brian Deer and other media outlets like the UK's Channel 4> Not forgetting hearing at the BMJ where the language they used to condemn him while stripping him of his licence, was about as strong as it could be coming from such an establishment.

Sadly Joey C, I think you are suffering from Dunning-Kruger if you think Wakefield was in any way right..

By John Phillips (not verified) on 14 May 2016 #permalink

$74 Let me simply say, my stomach is turning

Perhaps you have rotovirus. Have you considered vaccination?

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 14 May 2016 #permalink

@John Phillips #83

Anderson Cooper? That was in 2011!? Great job bringing up the dark ages. Watch a little bit closer. Dr. Wakefield is much more mainstream now and I assure you it's in a good way (from my point of view, not yours). Trust me, I see it everyday...
People are waking up to the dangers of vaccines. If you are still living in the Anderson Cooper interview days, you better fast forward to 2016 quickly.

As for Deer, I took a quick peek at his website and was unimpressed. If he's held in high regard by anyone over there,
that's too bad... But to be honest, knowing Deer's personality as
I do (from a distance just through his "work"), I'm sure I'd be seeing many more accolades, speaking engagements, awards, etc... If he was truly respected over there. It's simply not there.
This leads me to believe that you are lying or stretching the truth about Deer. My how the tide has turned. Deer condemned to the bowels of Orac's blog while Dr. Wakefield is greeted with love, praise and admiration everywhere he goes. Thank goodness as truth matches on...

As for me, I will be marching on from here as well (for now at least..). So, feel free to bash me in the way out. I often have to weigh the idea of engaging here and possibly giving Orac more hits on his site along the way and simply allowing you all to converse amongst yourselves. The regulars, Orac, Deer, Dorit and all the other sock puppets out there... Enjoy your time playing with each other.

I rather see people waking up to the dangers of vaccine preventable diseases. Alas it's the children who have to suffer first.

Wakefield is opening up eyes left and right with an amazing story about total fraud at the CDC and you little Brian, are left sulking on Orac’s blog. Oh how the “mighty journalist” has fallen.

Let's see, Wakefield with no relevant experience in autism nor vaccinology, Wakefield who was stripped of his medical licence for egregious ethics violations, Wakefield who was exposed for the fraud he is by Brian Deer has now been reduced to making silly little conspiracy videos that no one outside of anti-vaxx circles take seriously whilst Brian Deer has won British Press Awards. Who do you suppose is sulking Joey?

By Science Mom (not verified) on 14 May 2016 #permalink

A few things...

-Right, people like Andy would make a great big deal of an appearance at a revered institution like Johns Hopkins- rather than honestly labelling it as an event where he was there solely because of his dodgy science, to be questioned by students and professors, he would portray it as having been asked to instruct or lecture - as though he were invited because he were worthwhile.

And his performance there would probably be an exhibition of sliminess, self-promotion, half-truths and downright lies.

Recently a few of the Thinking Moms spoke at the UN about environmental issues ( vaccines): similarly a well-known woo-meister makes much of his Earth Day appearances there as well- I imagine that they rent out spare rooms or suchlike.

- Joey doesn't get that Andy is not a great success in either the UK or the US- he speaks, writes and makes films for an EXTREMELY limited group of believers. He didn't get his work into the Tribeca FF because it was *selected*, because of its merit but because he had an 'in' with De NIro through his wife.

Andy doesn't have a real job but is a figurehead of sorts who is paid to lord it over a group of anti-vaxxers. Those who admire him have set him up with a foundation and 'media channel'.

Andy could not work legitimately as a physician or instructor ANYWHERE unless it were, again, special circumstances and probably illegal.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 14 May 2016 #permalink

@ John Phillips:

" in the UK vaccine rates are climbing again"

Dan Olmsted today ( AoA) reports that one third of kids in the UK have problems with school readiness et al.
Of course, Dan knows why.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 14 May 2016 #permalink

Joey C, as I said, you're a classic case of Dunning-Kruger.

Do you know one of the reasons I didn't use anybody later? As ever since Anderson Cooper ripped the fraud a new one, Wakefraud has avoided all but friendly reporters and interviewers or situations where he can control the interview. If you Google the name of any UK national newspaper alongside Andrew Wakefield's name you can see for yourself how they refer to him nowadays, even the ones who promoted his fiction at the beginning because it sold papers. Though it has gone relatively quiet over the last twelve months or so as there haven't been any recent major measles outbreak as the vaccine figures have been improving year on year since 2007. Though there have been a few smaller outbreaks over the last few years often due to the pool of still unvaccinated children and teens combined with the total figures still being slightly under the figure required for herd immunity, but it's getting there. One of the reasons for this pool is that many of those who didn't get the MMR after the Wakefraud scare still haven't had it. But there is an ongoing effort to find them and usually as soon as there is an outbreak in an area, many parents double check that their children are up to date and if not get their children vaccinated there and then.

In fact, two things have been largely responsible for the uptake in MMR vaccination in the UK over the last 8 years or so. One is the truth about Wakefraud becoming better known and two, the occasional outbreaks of measles. Especially when an outbreak caused by another pool of unvaccinated in S Wales caused the death of a teenager a few years ago and some 1300 cases.

BTW, in an article in The Telegraph last month brought about by De Niro and Vaxxed at the Tribeca festival, the only mention of Wakefield is a not very flattering one liner about his fraudulent research and his losing his licence at the very end. Any time you see Wakefraud mentioned in an UK paper you can guarantee there will be, however brief, a mention made of his fraudulent research and the loss of his medical licence.

But hey, you keep on imagining that your hero isn't a sick money grabbing monster.

P.S. you do know that for all the noise you and your ant-vax cohorts make, vaccine rates are still high in the US. It's just that it should be better. In states like California it is on the rise, and not only because of SB277, and this is also reflected in many countries around the world. So keep hoping that you will be right one day and can prevent children being vaccinated in huge numbers and you can make the proud claim that you too were responsible for the vaccine preventable injury and deaths of many children.

By John Phillips (not verified) on 14 May 2016 #permalink

You know what is concluding today? The International Meeting for Autism Research (IMFAR). Did the Wakefield-Tommey-Bigtree Roadshow make any effort to participate? No. Did they arrange for a screening in Baltimore (the venue)? No.

Paul Shattuck of Drexel University gave a barn-burning talk this morning on how little research there is on the lived experience of autism across the life-span.

The take-away: Vaxxed is irrelevant but destructive.

JoeyC claims

At the end of the day, Dr. Wakefield is doing great good.

At the end of the day, Wakefield thinks autism is "a blight". Wakefield and his fellow-travellers in the "vaccines cause autism" camp are doing great and irreparable harm to actually autistic people and their families.

Vaxxed isn't really about anything other than building Wakefield's brand.

Wow, Joey C is a real Wakey fanboi. He doesn't realize that making idiotic movies is how Wakefraud keeps trying, and failing, to be relevant.

Wakefield never had any credibility, and his first public lie was during the 1998 video conference announcing that now retracted paper. That first lie was when he suggested single vaccines instead of the MMR.

Here is the crux of that lie: there was nothing in that paper that supported that suggestion. Another problem with that lie were that there was never an approved mumps vaccine in the UK. Which meant certain clinics illegally imported Urabe measles strain vaccines. The Urabe being the strain that caused caused to much asceptic meningitis, the reason the UK dropped two MMR vaccines in 1992, and just kept the one with the Jeryl Lynn mumps strain. And the biggest lie of all was that Wakefield was making it out to be a "new" vaccine, but there had been MMR vaccines in use elsewhere since 1971. Almost two decades before Wakers had even heard of the MMR vaccine.

Joey, I am afraid you have been asleep at the wheel. You seemed to have missed out on so many of the lies. Public health officials are finally tired of the impact and are taking action. Ontario is going actually have parents take a class on vaccines if they want to be exempted:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/vaccination-legislation-1.3580593

Joey C, I can tell you that Brian Deer is respected in the UK. He has twice won a UK Press award and his integrity should be amply illustrated by the fact that he has investigated what you might call Big Pharma too. That he exposed Wakefield for the fraud he undoubtedly is has given Deer many unearned enemies, including yourself. Your diagnosis of his personality is likely to be different to mine. I see him as someone who stands for truth and honesty, something a million miles away from Wakefield. By association, Joey, you appear uninterested in either truth or honesty too.

I might be wrong, but I don't think Wakefield has any scientific or medical friends left in the UK. I suspect they would cross the road to avoid the stench of hypocrisy he gives out, just like the fivers he gave out at a notorious kids party he attended. Why that never led to a prosecution is beyond me.

By Fragmeister (not verified) on 14 May 2016 #permalink

Dan Olmsted today ( AoA) reports that one third of kids in the UK have problems with school readiness et al.
Of course, Dan knows why.

I notice that the site redesign originally announced for last Monday and then silently redacted to "in a few days" has yet to materialize.

Dr. Wakefield is much more mainstream now

Which is why he is reduced to spieling to the tinfoil hat brigade on board a cruise ship for a living?

By shay simmons (not verified) on 14 May 2016 #permalink

Liz Ditz says (#93),

At the end of the day, Wakefield thinks autism is “a blight”.

MJD says,

A definition of blight is something that impairs.

The scientific name for autism is Autism Spectrum Disorder.

A disorder can impair or is an impairment.

Therefore, I won't judge this Wakefield character too harshly when using the word blight instead of impair/impairment.

FYI - I've heard whispers that being one of Orac's minions is an impairment wherein said minions often disrespect the concept of vaccine safety advocate.

By Michael J. Dochniak (not verified) on 14 May 2016 #permalink

Therefore, I won’t judge this Wakefield character too harshly when using the word blight instead of impair/impairment.

Another sign of your lack of honesty. They keep piling up.

A blight is not "something that impairs." It is something that spoils or damages.

synonyms:affliction, scourge, bane, curse, plague, menace, misfortune, woe, trouble, ordeal, trial, nuisance, pest

Yeah, that's really sympathetic to the autistic. Oh, wait, Wakefield doesn't give a flip about anyone but the parents and himself.

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 14 May 2016 #permalink

Emma Crew says (#101),

A blight is not “something that impairs."

MJD says,

From the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

3: something that impairs or destroys

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/blight

Emma Crew also says (#101),

Yeah, that’s really sympathetic to the autistic.

MJD says,

Suggestive wording - Yeah, that's really sympathetic to a person that has an autism spectrum disorder.

By Michael J. Dochniak (not verified) on 14 May 2016 #permalink

The paper NEVER concluded that vaccines (mmr) causes autism.

Of course, if one examines the paragraph immediately preceding that disclaimer, it sure the fυck insinuated it:

"Rubella virus is associated with autism and the combined measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine (rather than monovalent measles vaccine) has also been implicated. Fudenberg[16] [heh] noted that for 15 of 20 autistic children, the first symptoms developed within a week of vaccination. Gupta[17] commented on the striking association between measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination and the onset of behavioural symptoms in all the children that he had investigated for regressive autism. Measles virus[18,19] and measles vaccination[20] have both been implicated as risk factors for Crohn's disease and persistent measles vaccine-strain virus infection has been found in children with autoimmune hepatitis.[21]"

At the end of the day, Dr. Wakefield is doing great good. He knows the science inside and out. People are listening to him and believing in him.. Look where we are today. Wakefield is opening up eyes left and right with an amazing story about total fraud at the CDC...while Dr. Wakefield is greeted with love, praise and admiration everywhere he goes.

I hate to tell you this, Joey C, but he's not going to sleep with you.

I hate to tell you this, Joey C, but he’s not going to sleep with you.

I have image loading turned off on my main machine, so I only saw the Tommey/Bigtree screen capture on my phone last night.

Am I the only one who thinks it has "caption this" written all over it?

@Brian Deer
Sociopaths and Sith Lords are my specialty. :-p

@ Narad:

My thoughts exactly..

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 14 May 2016 #permalink

"It’s the science (connection with mmr, bowel disease and autism) in conjunction with the facts about cdc fraud and corruption that really matter now."

It's sad it's almost funny that you actually think you'd get this from a crank like Wakefield.

# 102: Narad

You're also missing that administration with MMR is described in the paper as the "apparent precipitating event", and a "possible environmental trigger".

Wakefield has long made much of the paper saying he didn't "prove" the association, but

(a) he then goes on to say that the syndrome (he was commissioned by lawyers to find) apparently represented a "unique disease process"

and (b) he uses "prove" in the way Lt Columbo's suspects used to use it. You know: "But what can you PROVE?"

In other words, we know it was MMR, but we can't PROVE it, based on 12 children.

So, what he's said since, it but another example of his relentless dishonesty. But, of course, his victims and the profiteers, who have turned autism into a cash crop, cling to it, they way they will.

By Brian Deer (not verified) on 14 May 2016 #permalink

So I learned from Joey that
1. "It’s the science (connection with mmr, bowel disease and autism) "
2. "Dr. Wakefield was harassed for no good reason. The paper tells the story. The paper NEVER concluded that vaccines (mmr) causes autism."

So Wakefield was unfairly accused of trying to link vaccine and autism, and also was totally vindicated and proven right about this claim that he never made.
OK.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 15 May 2016 #permalink

Orac writes,

I didn’t want to give Wakefield and Bigtree any of my hard-earned cash for their antivaccine propaganda film.

MJD says,

In Vaxxed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia it is written:

Professor David Gorski calls the film's 'CDC whistleblower' affair "the central conspiracy theory of the antivaccine movement" and in response asks:

... How on earth did this documentary full of antivaccine lies ... get into Tribeca?

— David H. Gorski, Oncologist & scientific watchdog - The LA Times.[11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaxxed

Who is being dishonest now?

By Michael J. Dochniak (not verified) on 15 May 2016 #permalink

In continuation of post #112:

@Orac,

Many honest hard-working Americans make sacrifices for the better good (e.g., forced immunity).

Please consider watching Vaxxed (with a paid receipt) and provide a review.

By Michael J. Dochniak (not verified) on 15 May 2016 #permalink

Who is being dishonest now?

You.

I don't get it:
MJD thinks Orac shouldn't have an opinion unless he's seen the film?

Listen, Andy's position and ideas are very well-known amongst sceptics - do you seriously think that Andy, the father of trumped up vaccinophobia, is going to suddenly change his tune whilst on film?

I am nowhere near Orac's level at reading and watching woo propaganda and even *I* could tell you, chapter and verse, where Andy stands on most relevant issues. I have watched loads of his videos and read much of his written material, In addition, I have read commentary on his work on both sides of the fence. I even regularly read all of the tripe his advocates splash over the internet.

We know that the film is about the whistleblower- indeed many of us have read the documents that Matt graciously provided. We have watched video promos about said whistleblower and watched Andy ( and others) speak about him. I heard AJW *et compagnie* live on prn/fm, discussing their Meisterwerk. What! Is there anything new in the film?

Perhaps he's admitting the error of his ways?

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 15 May 2016 #permalink

And, of course Wakefield and Bigfoot put their allegations to CDC and included this in the film, along with the response to Wakefield's complaint to ORI.

By Brian Deer (not verified) on 15 May 2016 #permalink

Pop the bubbly, the mighty Orac made it onto Wiki

-btw-
This has been bothering me for a while. Really.

What the f@ck kind of name is Bigfoot.. I mean BIGTREE anyway?

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 15 May 2016 #permalink

Denice Walter says,

MJD thinks Orac shouldn’t have an opinion unless he’s seen the film?

MJD says,

So, Orac's understanding of the Vaxxed film is based on an educated guess?

Let's be honest, Orac refuses to pay theatre prices for popcorn and this is the rate limiting step in his effort to view the documentary.

By Michael J. Dochniak (not verified) on 15 May 2016 #permalink

The paper NEVER concluded that vaccines (mmr) causes autism.

Of course not - the paper had to make it through peer review, and in any case not many parents read the BMJ. That's why Wakefield called a freaking press conference for the express purpose of starting the national panic that he was planning to profit from. Apparently this is the only extant video footage of Wakefield that Joey C doesn't have under his mattress.

Joey C's comments should be preserved for posterity as a cautionary tale about the power of a charismatic personality over dry facts. He couldn't have proved Brian Deer's point (about Wakefield's almost Saruman-like power to deceive the unwary) better if he'd tried. Everything Wakefield says is automatically regarded as "fact," not only in the absence of supporting evidence but frequently in the face of contradictory evidence. By contrast, Brian Deer's investigative reporting, which included documentary evidence of Wakefield's patent for a monovalent measles vaccine (among other shady business dealings,) subjects' medical records contradicting the diagnoses reported in the study, interviews with the actual parents who participated in the study, and, of course, reams of transcripts from one of the longest (I think it might have been the longest) hearings in the GMC's history, is airily dismissed with the phrase "you're entitled to your opinion." You almost can't help but feel a sort of horrified admiration for how this utter douche nozzle can openly joke about making kids throw up and cry for their mothers and still leave his audience believing that he's "Jesus and Nelson Mandela rolled into one."

What the f@ck kind of name is Bigfoot.. I mean BIGTREE anyway?

Could it be related to one of Stephen Stucker's lines in Airplane?

I suppose it could be related to Chief John Big Tree in some way.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 15 May 2016 #permalink

@ Mephistopheles O'Brien:

When I first heard his name I thought of driving along 101 in Northern California near the Avenue of Giants where there is an odd mercantile that sells Sasquatch memorabilia.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 15 May 2016 #permalink

MJD: Orac refuses to pay theatre prices for popcorn and this is the rate limiting step in his effort to view the documentary.

Have you seen what the big theaters charge for popcorn lately? They don't even put *real butter* on it anymore. (Besides, the only way to watch Vaxxed is either fortified with drinks or in the company of a pair of snarky robots.)

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 15 May 2016 #permalink

I'm don't think it's about the price of popcorn..
and I doubt that Orac is impoverished.

In my own case, I don't think that I should contribute in any way that enriches pseudoscientists or their allies.
Even if his share of the profit were only 1%.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 15 May 2016 #permalink

What the f@ck kind of name is Bigfoot.. I mean BIGTREE anyway?
It's pronounced BigbooTAY!

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 15 May 2016 #permalink

@Herr doktor bimmler #125: Congratulations, you won this thread. Comments may now be closed.

By Guy Chapman (not verified) on 16 May 2016 #permalink

In reply to by herr doktor bimler (not verified)

Besides, the only way to watch Vaxxed is either fortified with drinks or in the company of a pair of snarky robots.

YES! (To the robots; alcohol gives me a tummy ache.) I wonder if we could persuade the guys at RiffTrax to do it as a public service...the only problem is that people would still have to buy the movie itself.

Also, congrats to Orac on getting his own Wiki page. I wonder if this means we'll have to devise a new unofficial IQ test for drive-by commenters...nah. It's not exactly as if the info was difficult to find before.

@ herr doktor bimler

So Wakefield was unfairly accused of trying to link vaccine and autism, and also was totally vindicated and proven right about this claim that he never made.

Ah, you noticed this, too? Here I was, thinking I was a big meanie for nitpicking about Joey's contradictory assertions.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 15 May 2016 #permalink

Also, congrats to Orac on getting his own Wiki page.

Orac has had a Wikipedia page since 2013. The blinky box on the other hand has had a page since 2006.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 16 May 2016 #permalink

So Wakefield was unfairly accused of trying to link vaccine and autism, and also was totally vindicated and proven right about this claim that he never made.

I enjoyed this one as well.

In the annals of other stupid things anti-vaxxers write, I have been told elsewhere on the web by anti-vaxxers that David Gorski is being investigated by the FBI.*

*Yes, I know they got this idea from Mike Adams, but I don't remember Adams going that far.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 16 May 2016 #permalink

Of course the best example of this kind of bullshit doorstepping is the legendary clip of Bart Sibrel hounding Buzz Aldrin. I don’t advocate punching Wakefield’s lights out, but I don’t think I would be the only one to laugh out loud if it happened.

http://www.phawker.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/BUZZ-ALDRIN-CONSPIRAC…

You could easily add Wakefraud and his cohorts to Buzz's hit-list there.

# 129 Chris

They've simply started to fabricate now - pure and simple. Wakefield apparently now says I have some kind of deal with GlaxoSmithKline, with whom I have no connection whatsoever. Just a rank fabrication. Right down in the gutter now. Not that he's ever been far from it.

Mind you, a few years back he fabricated that I was supported by the Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry.

Just imagine that: lying to get money out of the parents of disabled children. Just think about that. What a wretch.

By Brian Deer (not verified) on 16 May 2016 #permalink

I've been reading bits and pieces of this for a while...

it appears that VAXXED!!!! will be featured at Autism One in Chicago, in less than 2 weeks
-there will be a showing ( Saturday night)
- with a red carpet
- dinner and
- Andy
- Polly
- and Del

Wouldn't it be great if some sceptics/ journalists/ minions attended?

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 16 May 2016 #permalink

It would Denice but Ken Reibel has tried and was thrown out of Autone. This will be no different, in fact I'm sure they will form a human shield if necessary to protect their St. Andy from unfavourable questioning.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 16 May 2016 #permalink

Right, I remember.
Maybe a lesser known or a great disguise.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 16 May 2016 #permalink

It would have to be someone who is unknown to them. For instance, if I were to try to get into AutismOne, it likely wouldn't take very long at all for one of the antivaxers to recognize me.

That reminds me. I was thinking of going to the Detroit area VAXXED screening with Del Bigtree and Polly Tommey doing the Q&A afterward a couple of weeks ago and almost did. (The problem was that I was exhausted after a very long day.) Depressingly, I later heard that there were over 400 people there (I don't think any of the theaters at Emagine Novi seat that many people; so I take that estimate with a grain of salt.) In any case, if there really were a lot of local antivaxers at that screening, I almost certainly would have been recognized.

We need a sceptic from the area who is not well-known by name ( I heard that they ID people) or looks.

( If only I wasn't so far away - it would be a good excuse to buy a wig, possibly dark brown)

One problem for possible attendees is that this festival of faux science will cost REAL MONEY - conference entrance is 79 USD, gala is 99 and the film is 10. I don't know if they'd let someone buy a film ticket alone. Somehow I doubt it.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 16 May 2016 #permalink

herr docktor:

What the f@ck kind of name is Bigfoot.. I mean BIGTREE anyway?
It’s pronounced BigbooTAY!

That is EXACTLY what went through my head! Thank you!

Incidentally, by total coincidence, today came the news that Kevin Smith is seeking to launch a Buckaroo Banzai TV series. I have absolutely no idea how to feel about this news.

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 16 May 2016 #permalink

Denice Walter@138

We need a sceptic from the area who is not well-known by name ( I heard that they ID people) or looks.

I fit that description. However, I don't much care to spend my money for it. Especially considering I'm almost certain they don't accept Pharma Lucre.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 16 May 2016 #permalink

capkrunch,

Disguise your Pharma Lucre as monopoly money and you shouldn't have a problem.

Clearly he can't be a Red Lectroid from Planet 10 because his first name isn't John.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 16 May 2016 #permalink

They’ve simply started to fabricate now – pure and simple.

Brian, you are correct. As they have a paucity of real facts, the only way forward is to invent some. They get more and more ridiculous, but the faithful never waver in their acceptance of them.

There is some interesting commentary about the fake information spread by Wakefield at PLoSBlogs.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 16 May 2016 #permalink

Thanks for that link Chris Preston -- wonderful article, links to real science, and this:

Wakefield has, then, written at least two major works of fiction disguised as fact: his retracted Lancet paper, and now the pseudo-documentary Vaxxed. And in doing so, he is playing out a real world narrative that gives his followers a way to process inconvenient realities.

Setting the stage:

Editor’s Note: PLOSBLOGS invited independent science journalist Beth Skwarecki to assess and contextualize the controversy which errupted in the US surrounding last month’s release of Vaxxed, a documentary film made by and about anti-vaccine proponent and discredited doctor Andrew Wakefield. Our purpose in publishing the post that follows is not to review this film (problematic in any event since preview copies were not made available to press), but rather to provide a context for the reignited debate about vaccines that it has already provoked–and may still cause as its distribution expands to Asia. We want to help our readers–including parents attempting to make the correct decision about vaccinating their children, public health providers responding to vaccine hesitancy on the part of worried parents and public health researchers charged to provide evidence-based guidance on best practices for communicating vaccine efficacy and safety–to counter the current re-emergence of anti-vaccine messages, many previously addressed and carefully debunked by the scientific community. The post has been lightly edited for clarity. — Victoria Costello for PLOSBLOGS

Calli Arcale: Incidentally, by total coincidence, today came the news that Kevin Smith is seeking to launch a Buckaroo Banzai TV series. I have absolutely no idea how to feel about this news.

Could be awesome, could be terrible. Could be awesomebad but canceled after one season. A lot of the stuff I really like in concept tend to get axed early on. I have heard that Buckaroo Banzai was originally planned to be a series of movies, so it's not that far-fetched.

(Though, please let's have Buck be half-Asian, and I demand that his dad or crazy uncle be George Takei. Considering what Hollywood's done to Asian actors and actresses lately, I suspect Buck will still be lily-white. No I'm not mad about the Ghost in the Shell live-action movie at all.)

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 16 May 2016 #permalink

I understand Orac's refusal to pay actual money to see Wakey's slop, and agree that his not having seen it doesn't detract from his criticism.

Still, there may be something surprising in the film. I don't mean facts or TRUTH, just something unexpected.

I live in an anti-science, alt med, conspiracy theory enclave. At the farmers' market one of the managers has a table marked 'FREE HEALTH INFO' with DVDs you can take. My toddler put a bunch in with our veggies, when I got home I found 6 copies of a DVD called FLUORIDE, VACCINES, EMR & GEO-ENGINEERING.

Being a long time reader of this and the other blog, I thought I'll watch it for a giggle but there won't be anything I haven't heard before. Well, colour me surprised. I knew about SV40, but did you know somethingsomething JFK ASSASSINATION blahblahblah AIDS DENIALISM? This DVD told me that vaccines cause autism, but then it told me EMR causes autism, and then it told me chemtrails cause autism!!

Initially I vaguely wondered if I should suggest they maybe provide a source of reality-based information, but now I think that anyone who actually watched the whole thing would likely be put off by how overtly ridiculous it was.

By Can't remember… (not verified) on 16 May 2016 #permalink

This DVD told me that vaccines cause autism, but then it told me EMR causes autism, and then it told me chemtrails cause autism!!

Clearly a DVD by Stephanie Seneff, who managed to author seven different articles in the same special issue of Entropy claiming different causes for autism, before she finally settled on the one-true cause of autism: glyphosate (except when she is appearing in anti-vax films in which case vaccines and glyphosate are working together to do it).

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 16 May 2016 #permalink

You could show Seneff the correlation between autism and organic-food consumption, and the evidence for another cause of autism would merely strengthen her conviction that glyphosate AND vaccine adjuvants AND Tylenol ALSO cause autism.
After all, each new discovery of a cause is additional confirmation of her methodology, validating the role of all the other causes.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 16 May 2016 #permalink

You could show Seneff the correlation

Actually it is Nancy Swanson who is the Great Correlator. Stephanie Seneff merely borrowed her material.

But yes, Seneff would simply add things that she doesn't like to the list of those that cause cancer.

One of my favourites is the failure of "quantum coherent nanomolecular clusters of magnetized water" caused by such things as aluminium and mercury in vaccines, fluoride in water and glyphosate. It causes all diseases known to man, didn't chew no.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 16 May 2016 #permalink

Edit. That should have been "those that cause autism". However, according to Seneff everything that causes autism also causes cancer, it is easy to see how I could get confused.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 16 May 2016 #permalink

No I’m not mad about the Ghost in the Shell live-action movie at all.

I am boiling with rage. Remember the Dragon Ball Z movie? I still do (despite my best efforts to the contrary). Live-action is where anime goes to die - regardless of the race of any actors involved...

"Still, there may be something surprising in the film. I don’t mean facts or TRUTH, just something unexpected."

Facts or truth would be surprising and unexpected.

Amethyst: Forgot to tag that as sarcasm, sorry :) I actually was unaware of the DBZ live-action movie, though I imagine it was cheesier than a deep dish extra-mozerella pizza. The source material was already pretty cheesy. I dunno why, I was just never a real fan of DBZ.
Even before the casting announcement was made, I thought a Ghost in the Shell live action movie was unnecessary. Now a Cowboy Bebop live-action, with all the characters as their canonical races..
Sorry about the nerd display there, everyone, now back into our regular schedule.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 17 May 2016 #permalink

I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes.

Forget a live-action Ghost in the Shell... I'd like to see Clive Barker's Weaveworld or Imajaca animated (especially since he seems to have 'borrowed' much of the japanimation for his more esoteric imagery).

Yahoo, another right-wing libertarian dystopia. Just what the world needed *eye roll*. Also, Gill, out of the fandom. Go watch Naruto with the other twelve-year-olds

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 17 May 2016 #permalink

"right-wing libertarian dystopia"?? It's not like I watch Attack on Titan or Suisei no Gargantia or anything. Hayao Miyazaki's Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind might have just a bit of libertarian bent.

Clive Barker == libertarianism?? I would've guessed him a liberal what with him being from London and all the goulish tales of his.

Don't send the twelve year olds toward Naruto. I'd reccomend Barker's Abarat as a starter for that crowd.

AAARGH! Nausicaa is NOT libertarian in any way, shape or form! I guess it's par for the course, since that lonely brain cell in your head seems incapable of understanding anything! I don't understand why you just don't find a new internet playpen. This is a place for SMART people. And stop watching Miyazaki movies, they're obviously over your head. You just might possibly be the dumbest person on the internet.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 18 May 2016 #permalink

Calm your tits, PgP; Laputa: Castle in the Sky was way over my head (and libertarian).

Gilbert @ 159, please refrain from sexist comments here.

By JustaTech (not verified) on 19 May 2016 #permalink

Gilbert @ 159, please refrain from sexist comments here.

FTFY

Nausicaa and Laputa are two different movies, Drumpf trash. I know you're a libertarian, and therefore also a sexist jerk, so why don't you just go back home to 4chan or Reddit already? Alternatively, get some medical advice, and stop self-medicating with LSD. It's not doing you any good.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 19 May 2016 #permalink

Almost, but not entirely off topic -

AoA has a post with a video of "Doctor" Wakefield trying to answer the allegations that have tarnished his reputation.

http://www.ageofautism.com/2016/05/vaxxed-the-movie-facts.html#more

A few things he says are in conflict with the facts as I remember them, and he (suprise) admits it was wrong to take blood samples at a birthday party. But mostly. It was the government/pharma/Deer out to get him and they made up lies.

He could get his license to practice medicine back, it would be a slam dunk, but it's just not important to him, he says. What's amazing to me is that he says it with such a straight face.

https://youtu.be/f9mNVwgVtZ4

@PGP

Oh my! My deepest apologies for making you aware of it, then. It is as "dumb" as the real thing, but without any of the redeeming qualities that makes the original actually enjoyable*. I hope you didn't actually go look up the trailer or something...!

*I can't blame you for not liking the DBZ anime/manga though; it is basically the Governator movie of anime/manga, and enjoyable for the same reason(s). Not everyone is into that.. :)

@Johnny. I can't make up my mind whether by now he actually believes any of what he says, or is a sociopath or is an out and out lying conman. He could of course be a mixture of all three, as I have sometimes seen before in other conmen. But reading the comments at your link it's almost as if he as a cult of his own going on over there, the cult of Saint Wakefraud. I've seen brain washed members of actual religious cults who are less slavish in their devotion to their holy leader than the followers of the cult of Saint Wakefraud.

By John Phillips (not verified) on 19 May 2016 #permalink

@ Johnny:

I saw the video.

Fortunately, the Skeptical Raptor has a new post by Dorit concerning Andy's "dishonest attempt at self- justification" debunking everything he says.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 20 May 2016 #permalink

@ John Phillips:

Much of what I read or hear from Natural News, PRN.fm and anti-vax sites involves outright worship of their respective idols as well as predicting the future:

which is apocalyptic
whether it describes various physical or social catastrophes
( fire, flood, earthquake, tsunami, drought, sea level rise**, famine, terrorism, martial law, gang rule, economic collapse) or health crises like the rise of autism ( see Seneff) and chronic illness ( see the Canary Party) or cancer due to GMOs and non-organic vegetables.

I find it hilarious that many of these astute seers allow us to look back into their archives to see their PAST predictions- which didn't happen. ( see Gerald Celente)

Besides providing an object of worship and a liturgy of sorts, these cults enable followers to set themselves above mere mortals because THEY are in the vanguard of paradigm shift-soon all wrongs will be righted, criminals/ sinners will be punished and the righteous, rewarded- they'll ascend to their rightful places in the celestial hierarchy.

I think that the leaders of these cults- even minor ones like those at AoA- have to on some level believe in their own myth. They are hucksters but delusional as well.

( Well, I go through all of that without a single mention of 'California Dreaming' ....Ooops!)

** only PRN

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 20 May 2016 #permalink

And in other news Anne Dachel is still going on about how there were no non-verbal people in school (including college) with her ergo they didn't exist. Honestly the woman is a bilge pump of cluelessness.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 20 May 2016 #permalink

@162

" Drumpf trash"

Oow, oowy, oww, oww. I don't really care for the man; His 'get tough on drugs' talk rubs me wrong. Actually, I don't see any reason to vote this season though if it were down to Bernie Sanders then I just might over the single issue of cannabis decriminalization.

FYI, Donald Drumpf is no libertarian and I have never experienced LSD. 4chan??? As if.

@ Denice Walter. Unfortunately, I know only too well what you mean, for I have former friends who went down the rabbit hole. Some with actual dangerous religious cults, some the conspiracy theory via David Icke route, i.e. the British queen is a lizard person believers and they really really believe this and rarely is the belief in just the one conspiracy theory enough, they must have company. To hear them speak, when I still bothered with them, how the world still exists is a total mystery to them but if you question their failed prophecies it is always that 'the man' is playing with us, 'but you just wait, you'll see'. Amazingly, most of them manage to function day to day, sadly not all of them do. The more I read sites like the one Johnny linked to the more I see that kind of delusional thinking as IIRC, can't be bothered to check, the second comment was a perfect example of what you speak.

By John Phillips (not verified) on 20 May 2016 #permalink

Thanks Science Mom. I've created a page of P.R.A.T.T.s on my websites, which I periodically update, and that's another one.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 20 May 2016 #permalink

You're welcome Julian. What does your acronym stand for?

By Science Mom (not verified) on 20 May 2016 #permalink

’ve seen brain washed members of actual religious cults who are less slavish in their devotion to their holy leader than the followers of the cult of Saint Wakefraud.

They are "advocates" for their child. Not all cult members are so dedicated advocate in general.

Al

I find it hilarious that many of these astute seers allow us to look back into their archives to see their PAST predictions- which didn’t happen. ( see Gerald Celente)

Learning materials. Skeptics reminds them of their failures and they weasel words out of the way to gain more followers ;)

Al

@ Science mom. I might be wrong, but I think if you remove the full stops and push the letters together to fomr a word you will get a better idea.

By John Phillips (not verified) on 20 May 2016 #permalink

Fortunately, the Skeptical Raptor has a new post by Dorit concerning Andy’s “dishonest attempt at self- justification” debunking everything he says.

Wherein John Stone has appeared. At the moment he seems to have made half a point.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 20 May 2016 #permalink

herr doktor bimler has the correct answer.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 21 May 2016 #permalink

@ Chris Preston:

I read that.

Reading what John Stone writes is a bit like purchasing a mind altering party drug at a rave**-
you never can tell what bizarre effects you might experience but you can usually bet in advance that being in touch with reality is not one of them.

** not that I would advocate behaving in that manner

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 21 May 2016 #permalink

At about 11:30 into the Q&A following a presentation of Quaxxed in Plano, Texas, Wakefield responded to Jake Crosby's question from the audience regarding whether or not Wakefield will apply for reinstatement. Wakefield replied, "I'm not interested in personal vindication. . . . It's a problem that I'm still wrestling with and I still don't have an answer."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9u4JxVR28Q

BTW, Wakefield told the audience at the Plano Q&A that Jake had been "a tremendous supporter over the years." Here's what Wakefield's tremendous supporter had to say about the issue of Wakefield's relicensure: "Shame on Wakefield for shirking re-licensure to continue to damage the credibility of the CDC whistleblower. And shame on pathetic excuses for vaccine safety websites like ageofautism.com for continuing to encourage him."

Funny stuff.

http://www.autisminvestigated.com/wakefield-re-licensure-priority/

From Brian Deer's GMC link:

"What factors do the medical practitioners tribunal take into account when considering the application for restoration?"

"The tribunal will consider a number of factors, including the following:
a The circumstances that led to erasure.
b The reasons given by the previous tribunal (or committee) for the decision to
direct erasure.
c Whether you have any insight into the matters that led to erasure.
d What you have done since your name was erased from the register.
e The steps you have taken to keep your medical knowledge and skills up to date and the steps you have taken to rehabilitate yourself professionally and socially."

One wonders whether parts c-e in particular would represent a significant stumbling block for Wakefield. :)

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 21 May 2016 #permalink

@Brian Deer:

Always a believer in evidence-based journalism, I offer you the chance to make up your own mind as to Wakefield’s chances of getting his doctor’s license back.

I don't even need to read it. His odds don't even reach "snowball in hell" levels.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 21 May 2016 #permalink

@Politicalguineapig #162

The people that want big fences and guns, sure, we could secure the border, A barbed wire fence with machine guns, that would do the trick. I don’t believe that is what America is all about.

Every time you think about this toughness on the border and ID cards and REAL IDs, think it’s a penalty against the American people too. I think this fence business is designed and may well be used against us and keep us in. In economic turmoil, the people want to leave with their capital and there’s capital controls and there’s people controls. Every time you think about the fence, think about the fences being used against us, keeping us in.

-- A past libertarian candidate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzLnB6L_EkU

And Trump wants to have Mexico pay for a fence to 'keep us in'.

Amethyst: Oh my! My deepest apologies for making you aware of it, then. It is as “dumb” as the real thing, but without any of the redeeming qualities that makes the original actually enjoyable*. I hope you didn’t actually go look up the trailer or something…!

Oh, no I was just amused at the kitsch factor, and that someone, somewhere, managed to actually get the money to make that turd. I owe you an apology too- I've been away for some days and am attempting to catch up. Not easy, given our host's output. (I did have internet access, but this place makes my tablet crash.)
I think I might have gotten into DBZ more if my access to cable hadn't been so sporadic during my youth, but maybe not. There are a few classics that I just can't get into- NGE, for example. Love the theme song, love the concept, hate just about everything else.

Gil: Maybe you should stop acting like an absolute git if you want people to believe you're not a Drumpf fanboy. Or show signs of intelligence by leaving this board. How much do I have to insult you before you leave?

Alain: They are “advocates” for their child. Not all cult members are so dedicated advocate in general.

I kinda disagree with that. Most people who join up with AOA, Autism "Speaks" and TMR actively dislike the child (ren) they currently have. They aren't advocating for their children, they're advocating for the idea of the child they wanted. I can't think of one useful thing they've done for any of their children or the autistic community in general. You never hear any of them talk about enrolling their child in life-skill classes or extra-curricular activities. Or giving notice to their husbands and leaving the family, which might actually be the best thing they could do.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 23 May 2016 #permalink

@PGP
Not to derail things too badly, but what is your thoughts on Hokuto no Ken (Fist of The North Star) - that is if you know about it.

It is my absolute favourite anime, for pretty much the same reasons DBZ is enjoyable. :)

@ Amethyst

OT
Did someone mention Kenshiro?
(about the only time he shows up in this webcomic, but you may enjoy it...)

By Helianthus (not verified) on 23 May 2016 #permalink

@Helianthus
The customer's face is perfect. I recall seeing one where he is a doctor telling a patient his catchphrase when asked for a diagnosis, but alas I can't seem to find it...

Alain: They are “advocates” for their child. Not all cult members are so dedicated advocate in general.

I kinda disagree with that. Most people who join up with AOA, Autism “Speaks” and TMR actively dislike the child (ren) they currently have. They aren’t advocating for their children, they’re advocating for the idea of the child they wanted.

Why do you think I put the word "advocate" in quote marks? Advocacy can run in any direction :P

Al

Amethyst: I've heard of Hokuto no Ken, but never seen it. I tend to like stuff that's more in the realm of science fiction/fantasy.

Alain: Sorry, missed the quote marks.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 24 May 2016 #permalink

Why is everyone in an uproar about Vaccines? Humans have only been around, what, 10-20,000 years without them? We must need some new 'thing' to jumpstart a new evolutionary response in humans. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger? Does that mean Autistic people will have stronger, better children? Do your own research, find out why every vital bit of information has been redacted from public view since big business/greedy people have been in positions of power.

Sonya, what you've just written is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent comment were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 24 Jun 2016 #permalink

@Sonya: so much fail. Humans have been around about 100,000-200,000 years (you missed a zero, there). And mankind has, in the past, seen spectacular die-offs from disease. Remember the Black Death (plague) that killed about 1/3 of the European population? Do you want to live through that?

No, what doesn't kill you may not make you stronger. It might leave you weakened, paralized, blind, deaf, sterile. And, as a society, we believe that all people have value, so we don't just let those people die off, which is what often happened in the past.

Do your own research, find out why every vital bit of information has been redacted from public view since big business/greedy people have been in positions of power.

AHHHHH...next, you might just call us "pharma shills" and be done with it. What vital bits of informaton have been redacted from public view? Have you never heard of FOIA? Except for some proprietary information, all information is public from the government and state run institutions.

Sonya,

Why is everyone in an uproar about Vaccines?

I personally have never been in an uproar about vaccines. I believe you'll find that the people in an uproar about vaccines are those who, like some of the people mentioned in this blog post, have decided that vaccines are excessively dangerous, despite the best current scientific data saying they're safe (remembering that "safe" is a relative term).

Humans have only been around, what, 10-20,000 years without them?

Well, no, more like 200,000 years give or take. They also lacked sanitation, roads, stable food supplies, dentistry, motorized transport, and so on much of that time.

We must need some new ‘thing’ to jumpstart a new evolutionary response in humans.

Why? Do you feel a need for an evolutionary jumpstart? I use coffee myself ("Jumper cables for the mind").

What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger?

And just because a loose-lipped German philosopher - who can't even make a mention in the Australian Philosopher's Song - says something does not make it true.

Does that mean Autistic people will have stronger, better children?

It says nothing whatsoever about that. Thanks for asking.

Do your own research, find out why every vital bit of information has been redacted from public view since big business/greedy people have been in positions of power.

Wait, every vital bit of information has been redacted from public view? There is no vital information that has not been redacted from public view? Great Scott!

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 24 Jun 2016 #permalink

"Remember the Black Death (plague) that killed about 1/3 of the European population? Do you want to live through that?"

Well now, the human race survived, didn't it, without all the weaker people the plague killed?

You vax people make such a fuss about mass death and suffering like it actually mattered.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 24 Jun 2016 #permalink

Sonya: "Why is everyone in an uproar about Vaccines?"

Now please go to each of your children and tell them that if they get sick it is okay for them to suffer. If they become disabled or die, just comfort yourself that is was for the betterment of mankind.

Obviously, you are fine with getting pregnant and having more kids, since in your world they are disposable and replaceable.

Too bad my grandmother is still not around, she would have told her about the hole left in their family when both of her brothers died within a few years of each other.

I'd add, you must be fine with getting pregnant and exposing your fetus to diseases that could kill, cripple, or maim it.

Mephistopheles:

I believe you’ll find that the people in an uproar about vaccines are those who, like some of the people mentioned in this blog post, have decided that vaccines are excessively dangerous, despite the best current scientific data saying they’re safe (remembering that “safe” is a relative term).

Indeed, vaccination is safer than getting the endless salad bar at your local Ruby Tuesdays. It's safer than crossing the road on foot. It's safer than going for a nice healthy hike in the woods. It's safer, in short, than practically everything we do on a daily basis.

We humans stink at judging relative risks. We mistake the habits we've formed for a safety rating, so anything unfamiliar is instinctively treated with extra suspicion.

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 24 Jun 2016 #permalink

"Too bad my grandmother is still not around, she would have told her about the hole left in their family when both of her brothers died within a few years of each other."

Neither of my grandmother's brothers made to age seven years. So which of you kids would you not mind losing from disease, Sonya?

Oh, that reminds me, you should take your kids to see the new movie The BFG. But before you do that, Sonya, get the book and read it to them. Be sure to tell them with it is dedicated to a little girl named "Olivia."

Calli,

Ruby Tuesday has an endless salad bar? I've been missing out! Is it better than the soup, salad, and fruit bar Frisch's Big Boy?

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 24 Jun 2016 #permalink

In a bit of AoA hilarity, the Dachelbot today flips her lid over discovering the word "vaccinosis":

The mother who was interviewed talked about her children's injuries and she used the word "Vaccinosis." I've never heard that before, but it's the accepted medical term for a vaccine injury.

YES, VACCINE SIDE EFFECTS ARE REAL---THEY EVEN HAVE A WORD FOR IT! I THINK I'M GOING TO USE IT.

"Vaccinosis is a set of symptoms that occurs after the administration of a vaccine(s). These symptoms are more commonly referred to as adverse reactions or events occurring within minutes."

The depth of her research is the first G—le result, viz., "The Dog Place." I'm inclined to doubt that she even read the payload, which even has "dis-ease."

There's nothing Nietzsche couldn't teach ya'
'Bout the raising of the wrist.
Socrates himself was permanently pissed.

Shame, MOB. Shame.

Sonya was quoting a Kelly Clarkson song, not Neitzsche. I believe she meant to disagree with the sentiment.* That is, she does indeed think things that don't kill you mess you up but good: specifically autism. She thinks vaccines are bad, creating all those people 'blighted' with autism; and we pro-vax folks KNOW that blight is happening (#CDCwhistleblower!); and we want it to happen -- because we're some on some kind of misguided Clarksonian mission to make the species Stronger. We must be trying to "jumpstart a new evolutionary response in humans", because why else would we be spreading the autism plague -- which doesn't kill us, jus leaves ust, you know, Damaged -- other than some mad scientist quest to create a race of Übermenschen, or winners on America's Got Talent [American Idol, alas having disappeared into the twilight...

Confusing, I'll admit, but somewhat easier to parse than Neitzsche.

You alsoseem to have mis-interpreted "every vital bit of information has been redacted", confusing this to mean 'information that might be important to somebody'. Sonya is talking about VITAL information -- in the sense of 'vital' as 'necessary to expose the big business/greedy people' doing the redacting. Expose to 'The Public', that is: the mere sheeple -- which does not include Sonya, or the other savvy special snowflakes who have done their OWN research (not just swallowed the lies from "the incredible lying machine") and have discovered Infowars, Adriana Gamondes, and THE TRUTH.

Hope that helps. ;-)

And Julian... c'mon. Reading that comment may have made you feel dumber, but you KNOW it really made you STRONGER! You stared once again into the anti-vax abyss, but rejected Plationic nihilism (in this case, the metaphysical certitude that attempting dialogue with Sonya is a waste of time) and summoned the heroic transcendent Will to respond. I mean, if reading posts from AV trolls really made us dumber, we'd all be Zippy the Pinhead by now.
______
* Or rather what she thinks the sentiment expressed in that phrase is. Which is not what Clarkson meant by it. Nor is it what Freddie meant by "Aus der Kriegsschule des Lebens: Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich stärker", from whence -- in partial and probably inaccurate English translation -- the Clarksonian wording is derived. Not that I, Kelly, or anyone else really know what Freddie had in mind...

Humans have only been around, what, 10-20,000 years without them?
Great, a Young-Earth Creationist of some kind.

We must need some new ‘thing’ to jumpstart a new evolutionary response in humans.
PLease tell me that the 10 hidden strands of DNA in the human genome are involved.

What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger?
In my experience, that which fails to kill me, nevertheless causes a frightful hangover.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 25 Jun 2016 #permalink

Sadmar,

You may be familiar with the album How Can You Be in Two Places at Once When You're Not Anywhere at All, which features on side 2 The Further Adventures of Nick Danger (the case called "Cut 'em Off At The Past", or case number 666 as Nick refers to it in his case file). In it there were two pieces of dialog that struck me:

CATHERWOOD

You'll never get away with this, Rococo.

ROCKY

Oh, yeah? Didn't you ever see Casablanca? Half a Key Largo? The Beast with Five Fingers, you fool?

And later

ROCKY

Stop it! Stop it! Stop singing, you fools! Can't you see someone has been crushed here under this car?! Oh, oh my god, it's me! I don't look at all well! I'm dead! I've been killed! Oh!!! This hasn't happened to me since "M"!

The astute listener realized that there were extra levels to these lines - because after all, Ugarte either "committed suicide or died trying to escape", Hillary Cummins was strangled, and Hans Beckert did not, in fact, die during "M".*

So you have found the joke within the joke.

As to the Kelly Clarkson song - I was unfamiliar with that.

* "Half a Key Largo" would have been a great title for a Cheech and Chong movie.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 25 Jun 2016 #permalink

MOB:
Sonya on vaccines: "What's all this brouhaha? Hahahahaha"
sadmar on Sonya. "She's no fun. She fell right over."

Ignorance of that song is bliss. Here's a better, and much smarter song, withe a renewed relevance considering the events of the last few days.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0LLjwH5xyU

Ah, a classic example of Fudd's First Law of Opposition. But everyone knew her as Nancy.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 25 Jun 2016 #permalink

If it were a good thing it wouldn't be so controversial......DUH!! Just how defensive this little cronies of big pharma saying so much brainwashing stuff and belittling del and Andrew was another dead give away

@jeanine:

If it were a good thing it wouldn’t be so controversial.

If seatbelts were a good thing seatbelt laws wouldn't be needed. If proper hygiene was beneficial everyone would wash hands after going to the toilet.
This "controversy" is a manufactroversy.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 24 Aug 2016 #permalink

Plus, if it weren't a good thing, we wouldn't bother to fight for it.

So, jeanine, do you have any actual arguments to make? Or are you feeling too defensive to do anything other than belittle the opposition. ;-) (Ah, the irony in the content of her post . . . .)

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 24 Aug 2016 #permalink

jeanine

belittling del

Umm, you're the one that just did that. Thanks for the laugh