Creationist miscellany

HEY!! There is nothing wrong with hangin out with prostitutes or crying!

But I suspect you knew that already and were making "an joke". I've heard about them. Don't like 'em.

Now I am not (absolutely not) advocating plying one's trade as a prostitute, engaging in trade with prostitutes, or indeed any aspect of prostitution, but prostitutes are people too. Please don't damn them by association with the odious likes of Ben Stein.

Louis

I think it looks more like a fruit fly on that pie.

HEY!! There is nothing wrong with hangin out with prostitutes or crying!

Those poor prostitutes!!! Hanging out with Ben Stein might have an upside though. Would make any self respecting working girl think about a career change.

I used to love Ben Stein, back when all I knew about him was his game show. Now it's ruined forever for me, and I hate him for it.

For what it's worth, Jesus is said to have hung out with prostitutes too. And to have wept.

Plus he was Jewish.

Coincidence?

Re, Noah's Ark math problem.

The Big Boat story is one of the biggest scandals in Xianity. They have been covering it up for 4,000 years.

We know all the animals got on the Big Boat.
We know that some of them got off the Big Boat.

We also know that at least 99% of all animals that ever lived are now extinct. There is an ooppsy in there somewhere, someone dropped the ball bigtime. A salvage operation that results in a 99% mortality has to be rated a serious failure. Among the victims were our dearly missed dinosaurs.

This was despite heavy supernatural backup. One of the greatest screwups in history and the Xians never, never, even mention it. It is time, who knew what and when did they know it?

..Sounds more like Ben took advice from the prostitutes. He is now a whore for The DI and ID

Filling out Jib Jab templates? That's what they're doing with their lives?

Is it wrong that I now feel pity?

"As has been frequently noted by critics, Noah's Ark has a math problem."

Absolutely. Mass of world's species >> Usable capacity of any damn boat, past, present, and future.

Note: scientific symbol ">>" means "way the hell greater than".

Is it just me, or are your attacks getting increasingly personal, PZ? The bile quotient certainly seems to have risen and I must admit it's putting me off reading this blog. Stick to analysis and facts, PZ, and I'll continue to visit. I'll draw my own conclusions about the people you so obviously despise. The constant ad hominems are beginning to get very tedious.

(As a Limey I have no idea who Ben Stein is, and no wish to find out. I suspect many of your overseas readers feel the same way.)

Forget the religious nonsense, publish your pumpkin pie recipe, it looks great. Do you know how hard it is to get pumpkins in Ireland?

I once saw Ben Stein get his knickers in a twist on his talk show when he got the answer to the question, "Whose was the the immaculate confection, oops I mean conception?" He was sure it was Jesus's and not Jesus's mum. It wasn't a pretty sight. Re Noah's ark: I asked my wife how the kangaroos got on the ark. "They hopped on, of course!" she replied.

Do you know how hard it is to get pumpkins in Ireland?

Not in the least. What do you use for Halloween, squash?

They are very easy to grow in a temperate climate. One type can get over 1,000 lbs.

Jack-O-Lanterns are an American thing, we just shoot off illegal fireworks. (no independence day)

Andrew Cooper, if you have "no idea" who Ben Stein is, then you couldn't have been reading this blog for more than a week, as there have been multiple posts about the man, his upcoming movie, and his dishonest treatment of PZ and other scientists.

If you aren't interested in informing yourself on the culture wars shaping the societies of the world, if you'd prefer to duck your head in the sand and pretend it isn't happening, then you really shouldn't be here. However, complaining that PZ isn't running his personal blog to your taste is pretty much the height of arrogant stupidity. Is it that you just aren't smart enough to know what a blog is?

Shoot, you don't need a reason to shoot off illegal fireworks, do you?

Re: Ben Stein and Jesus both hanging with pros, weeping and being Jewish -- PZ went to Lutheran Sunday school, so he presumably knows his bible (and if that didn't do it for him, he is an atheist, and probably knows it for that reason). I'm fairly certain he was making a conscious joke.

As for Stein, he is a pillock, but I will start to think much more highly of him if he turns some water into wine for me (extra bonus points if it's a 1990 Sassicaia).

Was it your intention to make me feel sorry for Ben Stein?

I myself detest Ben Stein, though I find this particular personal attack distasteful (unless I'm misinterpreting it). I don't care if someone cries or hangs out with prostitutes.

It's neither arrogant nor stupid to disapprove of what you feel is distasteful vitriol, despite what H. Humbert says. And not knowing who Ben Stein is doesn't necessarily entail ducking one's head in the sand.

Well, raised as a Lutheran means we favor Nordic stoicism over that kind of weepy Jewish/Catholic guilt and neuroticism. But yeah, we also learned all that traditional Jesus stuff, like hanging with the prostitutes, and as everyone knows, "Jesus wept" is the easiest bible verse to memorize.

I think hanging out with prostitutes is actually laudable, for a Christian. Too bad Stein is a dishonest slimebag.

#11 Branedy-

This year's US sugar pumpkins have been a disappointment (IOW flavorless), so we used butternut squash to make the following "Pumpkin Pie Brulee" from Epicurious:

http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/105850

It was delicious. Hopefully butternut squash can be obtained more easily....

Weird. I didn't consider the comment about Stein at all vitriolic -- unless you think just associating with prostitutes is a crime.

True confession: when I was a college student, I'd have to transfer buses at 4th and Pike in Seattle, near a certain infamous donut shop that was well known as the place to fence stolen items or meet young prostitutes (the homeless, desperate kind). I got to know several of the girls there (but not in a professional sense), and would sometimes buy them donuts. I know, it doesn't compare with Ben Stein giving them stock tips. But if mentioning an association with working girls at some time in one's life is a vitriolic attack, you're now free to turn around and attack me.

I don't cry much, though. Except in romantic movies.

I think hanging out with prostitutes is actually laudable, for a Christian.

Many Republican members of Congress seem to agree with you on this. ;)

Sorry, PZ, I thought what you said about Stein was in a disparaging tone. But now I see that you said it playfully, tongue-in-cheek.

You have so many different modes of sarcasm, PZ, that it's sometimes hard to tell which one you're using. Good anecdote, by the way.

I think it looks more like a fruit fly on that pie.

Blasphemer. And besides, you're not even right.

On the other hand, pumpkin pie is an abomination. Mysterious are the ways of the FSM! Praise the FSM! Ramen!

The Uncommon Descent thread has magically vanished. Not the first and certainly not the last to do so.

Quoting HH:

However, complaining that PZ isn't running his personal blog to your taste is pretty much the height of arrogant stupidity.

I have to say I've never quite understood this line of thinking. To some extent, blogging is, in fact, about saying what you want to say, rather than what someone else wants to hear. But plainly that's not its only purpose... or you'd just write a private journal. You're also writing to please an audience, and given that, I think it's wholly reasonable that members of the audience should let the blogger know what they're expecting. The blogger can then do whatever he wants to with that data - either respond to feedback he gets, or not, but with the understanding that he may be driving away readership if he doesn't. Insulting other readers of the blog for expressing their opinions about the blog is rude and unreasonable.

Louis - advocate away! I think prostitution should be legalized (like other drugs).

Hell, I'm not down on Ben Stein for being a financial advisor to prostitutes. They shall be "first in the Kingdom of Heaven" you know - and talk about a sweatshop. (I mean that - not just being snarky.)

I just wish he would give better advice!

Branedy - no offense, but I think it's time that Britian fought for (and celebrated) its independence from America. Then, yes, the Ben Steins wouldn't matter as much.

Note that this same video posted on You Tube has comments disabled, likely because since then stocks tanked and the "overinflated" Euro has gone gangbusters. (You didn't know "The Fridge" was a financial advisor too, did you? Man, that's real freedom of speech, all right.

Limey concern troll.

I don't cry much, though. Except in romantic movies.

The ones with the boy-meets-girl girl-meets-squid squid-eats-boy love triangle, I bet.

Sean, Andrew was not offering constructive criticism. He was suggesting that PZ cease and desist all subjective commentary and provide him only with "facts." Hardly a reasonable request considering what a blog is (Hint: it's not a newspaper.) Also, he admits to having no idea who Ben Stein is, but he's confident PZ is treating him unfairly.

Don't stoop to defending such idiocy. Stevie_C got it right. He's a concern troll.

This may be a dumb question, but what's a concern troll?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=concern+troll

Kristine,

I was distancing myself in that comment from the pros and cons (no puns intended...but damn they are good!) of prostitution. The reason being it's a murky sidetrack to get into. Personally speaking I think it should be entirely legal and above board, regulated so that the ladies and gentlemen who become prostitutes (for some, amazingly perhaps, choose to do so as opposed to being forced by "circumstance" where circumstance covers a multitude of sins.) can be kept as safe as possible.

I was trying to avoid staggeringly huge prostitute related derailerisation.

Louis

For the purposes of this blog, PZ defines concern trolling as:

A particularly annoying form of trolling in which someone falsely pretends to be offering advice to favor a position they do not endorse; a creationist who masquerades as someone concerned about the arguments for evolution as an excuse to make criticisms.

There is a fine line between expressing an opinion about the nature of the opinions commonly rendered here and concern trolling. I don't think Andrew quite crossed that line. PZ's measured response indicated he merely disagreed with Andrew's interpretation of the Ben Stein comment.

The reality is however, that this blog is not just a science blog, but a commentary and active player in the culture wars. I too feel occasionally excluded as a Canadian (case in point: our Thanksgiving was a month ago, and how come no Grey Cup post?), but here in North America, the reasonable are under attack. The more I've come to learn about the dishonesty about many of those on the religios' side, the more I realise that anger and vitriol are warranted and nearly impossible to suppress by those of us that passionately feel for the subject.

Pleas for "more science/less vitriol" aren't likely to be answered. But don't let that turn you off, Andrew. There are all sorts of good posts here that should suit your fancy.

I was distancing myself in that comment from the pros and cons (no puns intended...but damn they are good!) of prostitution.

D'autant plus en français...

D'autant plus en français...

I should explain, but didn't want to break the brevity of my previous post.

Louis mentioned the puns of the "pros and cons" of prostitution, and mentioned "damn they are good!". "Pros" is pretty clear in English; another one is there as well if you happen to know that "les cons" literally means "cunts" in French (it has figurative meanings, as well).

So, as I observed to Louis about his observation about puns, "even more so in French...".

I would have explained there, but I liked the brevity.

Vous parlez français aussi?

Most people don't notice when I'm being subtle, let alone subtle across two languages, you did! The reason is not a lack on the part of other people but mainly because I am so blunt it's utterly unexpected.

I take an entire milliner's produce off to you sir or madam.

Should we ever meet in meatspace,the beverage of your choice is yours.

Louis

That's no miracle! It's just my favorite home baked holiday treat, octo-pie that I praised on an earlier thread.

Error in Noah's Ark math thought experiment

Although I agree with Jeffthefish that the creationists do not have much of a grasp on reality I have to disagree with his use of math in this thought experiment.

Taking the amount of mammal species alive today and simply dividing that through the numbers of years since the "flood" (according to creationists) to give about 1.35 speciation events from the original 153 "kinds" on the Ark is erroneous (I will also assume that "kinds" are analogous to taxonomic families). This approach assumes that all speciation events (or should it be "kindification" events...!) occur sequentially, one after the other, and no simultaneous events occur.

If, however, one follows a more realistic cladistic approach then each mammal "kind" would diversify to two new "kinds", and these two new "kinds" on their turn would give rise to four new "kinds". In effect, starting with the original 153 "kinds" straight out of the Ark, we would get a sequence like this : 153 - 306 - 612 - 1224 - 2448 - 4896 - 9792. It is clear that should these events occur roughly simultaneously one would require slightly more than 5 mass or bulk speciation ("kindification" anyone?) events to reach the present 5400 species of mammals. Dividing these 5 events through 4000 years yields 5 periods of 800 years and then one would get that every 800 years there would be progressively more potentially observable speciation events. And the last 800 year period would have had potentially 4800+ events to observe. These 8 centuries also include the times when Linnaeus (1707 - 1778) - and those naturalists who preceded and followed him, until the present- were actively making rigorous scientific observations to come to grips with biological diversity.

Likewise birds with about 10 000 species within 227 families will give a sequence that also requires slightly more than five bulk events (227 - 454 - 908 - 1816 - 3632 - 7264 - 14528) with about 7200+ bird speciation events for Linnaeus & Co. to observe. More diverse animal groups such as insects, with a conservatively estimated 5 000 000 species within about 200 common families ("kinds"?), would actually require slightly more than 15 speciation events (200 - 400 - 800.....all the way to 3 276 800 - 6 553 600), or one bulk event every 267 years. This leaves Linnaeus & Co. with over 3 000 000 potentially observable insect speciation s events for the last 3 centuries.

So instead of just about 350 potentially observable mammal speciation events since Linnaeus we would actually have more than an order of magnitude more. And birds and bugs would blow these numbers completely out of the water.

But here I have to concur with Jeffthefish again. Creationists might whine that these speculative numbers are unrealistic but this caricature of speciation - or creationist "kindification" since the "flood" - flows directly from their initial flood apologetics. If the conclusion is unrealistic their initial argument and the storybook it is based on is equally unrealistic. Garbage in, garbage out.

Is it just me, or are your attacks getting increasingly personal, PZ? The bile quotient certainly seems to have risen and I must admit it's putting me off reading this blog. Stick to analysis and facts, PZ, and I'll continue to visit. I'll draw my own conclusions about the people you so obviously despise. The constant ad hominems are beginning to get very tedious.

People who'll miss concern trolls who misuse rhetorical terms? Hands? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

(it has figurative meanings, as well).

It's the most common word for "stupid" (applied to humans and computers alike).

Deep down, Ben Stein realizes he is just a dumb putz, with a few idiot savant talents. In the end, the joke will be on him when people look back on his "Expelled" appearance and laugh at the dumb putz. Even his psychiatrist will be laughing at that point.

While Ben Stein can only manage a phlegmatic whining whimper-cry: "Nobody realizes how brilliant I am...oh my...ho hum..."

PZ took it easy on Ben. Howzabout this bit that PZ *didn't* use: "He cries when talking about his dog, Puppy Wuppy, which has a large role on episodes of the already taped talk show and, having been run over, is being stuffed."

Named his dog Puppy Wuppy, and had it *stuffed* post mortem? The man's got issues.

People who'll miss concern trolls who misuse rhetorical terms? Hands? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

If I were to raise my hand, would it matter that I'm laughing? ;-)

Ben Stein is a discredited, talentless hack. If you think you're upset about an irrelevant creationist movie, imagine how you'd feel if you followed Ben Stein's disastrous financial advice.

One wonderful example: this August, Stein advised people to buy MER just weeks before they wrote down $5 billion dollars in subprime losses and fired their CEO. Just one example of many.

Ben Stein is an ignorant fool. Anyone who listens to him is worse, and worse off.

Even his psychiatrist will be laughing at that point.

His psychiatrist is already laughing -- all the way to the bank. Two hundred fifty dollars an hour? The mind boggles.

Quoth PZ:

I don't cry much, though. Except in romantic movies.

I bet you cried during "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea", when Kirk Douglas killed the squid.

Nah, that just made me angry.

If you want a tearjerker movie, try "October Sky". Now that's a nerd flick.

About that ark article, shouldn't anti-creationists be just a bit better at math and biology? Jeffthefish's analysis, and even cjk's reformulation, just don't do it for me.

In the first few decades (or generations) after the flood, each of the 153 pairs could have easily produced many hundreds of in-kind individuals. And in this short timeframe, young couples or small groups could have dispersed far and wide.

So the speciatin' gets going pronto, and contrary to cjk's doubling pattern, the micro-evolution towards the 5400 species is simultaneously underway in many different niche environments.

This allows around 4000 years for EACH species to evolve from its ancestral ark-rider, a far cry from jeff's 1.3 species per year.

The plausibility of say, polar bears, black bears and pandas all micro-evolving from a common ancestral couple in 4000 years -- the order of hundreds of generations -- will be left to others to argue.

My theory of Temporarily Vegetarian Lions is still undergoing refinement. Stay tuned.

I think it looks more like a fruit fly on that pie.

Blasphemer. And besides, you're not even right.

On the other hand, pumpkin pie is an abomination. Mysterious are the ways of the FSM! Praise the FSM! Ramen!

(it has figurative meanings, as well).

It's the most common word for "stupid" (applied to humans and computers alike).

Even his psychiatrist will be laughing at that point.

His psychiatrist is already laughing -- all the way to the bank. Two hundred fifty dollars an hour? The mind boggles.