It is finished.
I wonder how many of our Catholic friends have heard of the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215? This is the event where many of their important dogmas were codified, including the ideas of Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, that the Eucharist was the sacrament that only properly ordained priests of the Catholic church could give, and that the Jews were a pariah people, who could hold no public office, had to pay a special Jew tax for their right to exist, and were required to wear special clothing to distinguish them from Christians. The yellow badge marking the Juden was not an invention of the Nazis, but a decree by faithful Catholics in the Middle Ages. That's an interesting juxtaposition, that a symbol of Christian exceptionalism was formalized at the same time that they formally decreed the Jews to be inferior, and a target of hatred.
That combination was useful, too. Declare something cheap, disposable, and common to be imbued with magic by the words of a priest, and the trivial becomes a powerful token to inflame the mob — why, all you have to do is declare a bit of bread to be the most powerful and desirable object in the world, and even if it isn't, you can pretend that the evil other is scheming to deprive the faithful of it. Now you could invent stories of Jews and witches taking the communion host to torture, to make Jesus suffer even more, and good Catholics would of course rise in horror to defend their salvation. None of the stories were true, of course — Jews and infidels see no power at all in those little crackers, and the idea that they were obsessing over obtaining a non-sacred, powerless, pointless relic is ludicrous — but heck, it's a cheap excuse to make accusations illustrated by cheesy woodcuts of hook-nosed Jews hammering nails into communion wafers and lurid tales of blood-spurting crackers and hosts that pulsed like and beating heart, and thereby providing a pretext to encourage massacres.
The first recorded accusation was made in 1243 at Berlitz, near Berlin. As a consequence all the Jews of Berlitz were burned on the spot, which was subsequently called Judenberg. Another famous case that took place in 1290, in Paris, was commemorated in the Church of the Rue des Billettes and in a local confraternity. In 1370 in Brussels, the charge of host desecration, long celebrated in a special fest and depicted in artistic relics in the Church of St. Gudule, led to the extermination of the Jews of the city. The case of 1337, at Deggendorf, still celebrated locally as "Deggendorf Gnad", led to a series of massacres across the region. In 1510, at Knoblauch, near Berlin, 38 Jews were executed and more expelled from Brandenburg. The alleged host desecration in 1410, at Segovia, was said to have brought about an earthquake, and as a result, the local synagogue was confiscated and leading Jews were executed; the event continues to be celebrated as a local feast of Corpus Christi. Similar accusations, resulting in extensive persecution of Jews, were brought forward in 1294, at Laa, Austria; 1298, at Röttingen, near Würzburg, and at Korneuburg, near Vienna; 1299, at Ratisbon; 1306, at St. Pölten; 1325, at Cracow; 1330, at Güstrow; 1338, at Pulkau; 1388, at Prague; 1399, at Posen; 1401, at Glogau; 1420, at Ems; 1453, at Breslau; 1478, at Passau; 1492, at Sternberg, in Mecklenburg-Schwerin; 1514, at Mittelberg, in Alsace; 1558, at Sochaczew, in Poland. The last Jew burned for stealing a host died in 1631, according to Jacques Basnage, quoting from Manasseh b. Israel. Casimir IV. of Poland (1447).
That is the true power of the cracker, this silly symbol of superstition. Fortunately, Catholicism has mellowed with age — the last time a Catholic nation rose up to slaughter its non-Christian citizenry was a whole 70 years ago, after all — but the sentiment still lingers. Catholicism has been actively poisoning the minds of its practitioners with the most amazing bullshit for years, and until recently, I had no idea that a significant number of people actually believed this nonsense, or that the hatred was still simmering there, waiting for an opportunity to rise up in misplaced defense of absurdity.
All of the regular readers have seen it — thousands of mindless comments by Catholics, demanding that no harm come to a cracker. My email is melting down with swarms of insults, threats, pleas, and promises of prayers because I
Mark Sutton is representative of the majority of my email. No threats, at least, but instead he simply takes for granted an astonishing piece of insanity.
Professor Myers,
I was saddened to hear of your plans to harm our Lord Jesus Christ.
It obviously isn't the first time and it won't be the last.
I know you do not believe, but what if it truly is Jesus that you are attempting to hurt?
You are in my prayers.
You would not believe how many people are writing to me, insisting that these horrible little crackers (they look like flattened bits of styrofoam) are literally pieces of their god, and that this omnipotent being who created the universe can actually be seriously harmed by some third-rate liberal intellectual at a third-rate university (the diminution of my vast powers is also a common theme).
Jim Nicholson cranks up the crazy even more. Not many accused me of being a freemason — I've got lots that call me a Jew, which is illuminating given the history of this issue — and I cringe at the thought of a circumcised heart. But yeah, this kind of angry rant is fairly common, too.
You must be the devil himself as even he knows the power in the Holy Eucharist (don't you dare disparage the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by calling Him Who died for you a cracker!). You must be a freemason, or just a very sick man who needs healing and believe me, I will pray for your conversion. Pray you live to see that day so you can ask Him to forgive you and your uncircumcised heart. Just the mere thought of desecrating the Holy Eucharist is enough to get one into hell, but, maybe that is, for now, the horrible place you are aiming for. I dare you to read about Our Lady of Fatima and the accounts of hell as the three children saw, then, maybe you will change you sick mind. God forgive you. However, it was great that you got many people praying for your conversion since you showed the world how sick you are, and maybe God will convert your hard heart. Pity you. From a lay evangelist who prays for you and the rest of this sick world of secular humanists.
Another common theme has been the attempt to turn away the desecration of a Catholic symbol into the desecration of an Islamic symbol. Obviously, it's not desecration they find disagreeable — it's the idea that someone would offend their weird sectarian sensibilities. Here's one from Jack Isaacks that fits the mold.
Dear Professor Meyers,
If you REALLY want to do a courageous, revolutionary act, defecate publicly on a copy of the Quran.
Or do you have the cojones?
Christians won't attack you for desecrating a host, but will those wonderful cuddly peace-loving Muslims be as forbearing if you used their book for a toilet?
Well, how brave are you?
Yeah, right. Catholics won't attack me, but Muslims will. Never mind that the Catholic League demands that I be fired, thousands of Catholics write to me demanding I be kicked out of the university immediately, and that they send me death threats, both the explicit kind and the vaguely menacing kind. Let's not forget Webster Cook, who started this all by simply walking back to his seat with a cracker, and now faces censure and possible expulsion from his university. Oh, those Catholics sure are forbearing and tolerant.
And since I mentioned yesterday that I was taking my oldest son to the movies, these good Catholics have leapt to the opportunity. Since I'm not demonstrating any fear over their threats against me, well hey, let's try a new target! KJ Atkins of Bellarmine University thinks cowardly warnings against my family might be effective.
You fool, the vengeance for your sacrilege will not be . exhausted against you, but it will be carried out on your child. Wait and see.
Oh, I'm sorry, KJ. I'm only impressed by significant material concerns, and yours and other slanders against my family (I'm looking at you, Miki Tracy, the despicable person who thinks making up lies about my father might be persuasive) are not going to convince me of anything other than that religion breeds the most disgustingly vile haters in our country, and that Catholicism fits right in with the rest. I will note, however, that since Bill Donohue tried to get CAIR to join him in his crusade, I have gotten no email from outraged Muslims, over a span of time in which I've received thousands of Catholic hate mail messages.
If you want to see the deep danger of religion, you have to read this comment from Isaac.
As a Christian it is an insult for anyone to call my beliefs stupid shit. I have respected every religion and every idea for years.
Ah, what a beautiful illustration of the complete open mind — utterly undiscriminating, lacking any criteria for acceptance, simply blissfully and uncritically according every idea his full respect. Although, of course, it's also a lie: Isaac does not regard every idea as equally deserving, since he clearly considers the atheist idea that the sacraments of his faith are empty foolishness to be an outrage. Rather, what he loves is the idea that everyone else must respect his beliefs, no matter what they are, and that any disagreement is an insult. This is exactly the kind of uncritical, unskeptical, nonjudgmental idiocy all religions seek to promulgate, because they all know that if we tore off the blinders of tradition and artificiality and mindless etiquette, we'd see right through their lies. Respect every idea! Especially mine! And if you find the idea that this cracker is a god stupid, why, you must be disrespectful and no gentleman!
For even deeper inanity, let's not forget the Catholic blogs! We're talking some serious derangement there: look at Mark Shea's reaction.
I won't mince words. Myers is an evil man. And as evil men, particularly evil intellectuals, tend to be, he is also a mad man as are most of his acolytes and followers.
Myers and Co. are enmeshed in these lies because they have chosen evil. It is evil--archetypally evil--to desecrate the Eucharist. It's the sort of stuff archetypal bad guys in the movies do. It's completely unnecessary gratuitous evil.
To the Mark Shea's of the world, I would say…it's just a cracker.
I think if I were truly evil, I would have to demand that all of my acolytes be celibate, but would turn a blind eye to any sexual depravities they might commit. If I wanted to be an evil hypocrite, I'd drape myself in expensive jeweled robes and live in an ornate palace while telling all my followers that poverty is a virtue. If I wanted to commit world-class evil, I'd undermine efforts at family planning by the poor, especially if I could simultaneously enable the spread of deadly diseases. And if I wanted to be so evil that I would commit a devastating crime against the whole of the human race, twisting the minds of children into ignorance and hatred, I would be promoting the indoctrination of religion in children's upbringing, and fomenting hatred against anyone who dared speak out in defiance.
I'm sorry to say that I only aspire to be a teeny-tiny bit evil, and my target is a handful of virtually inedible crackers in my possession. It's not much, and all I can say in my defense is…it's a start. A very small start. I'm going to need lots and lots of people to rise up and follow suit, subjecting old, dishonest institutions of hardened dogma to our chief weapon of ridicule and deris…our two weapons of ridicule, derision and laughter…no, three weapons of ridicule, derision, laughter, and skeptici…oh, never mind. You know what I mean. Get to work.
OK, time for the anticlimax. I know some of you have proposed intricate plans for how to do horrible things to these crackers, but I repeat…it's just a cracker. I wasn't going to make any major investment of time, money, or effort in treating these dabs of unpleasantness as they deserve, because all they deserve is casual disposal. However, inspired by an old woodcut of Jews stabbing the host, I thought of a simple, quick thing to do: I pierced it with a rusty nail (I hope Jesus's tetanus shots are up to date). And then I simply threw it in the trash, followed by the classic, decorative items of trash cans everywhere, old coffeegrounds and a banana peel. My apologies to those who hoped for more, but the worst I can do is show my unconcerned contempt.
By the way, I didn't want to single out just the cracker, so I nailed it to a few ripped-out pages from the Qur'an and The God Delusion. They are just paper. Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything. God is not great, Jesus is not your lord, you are not disciples of any charismatic prophet. You are all human beings who must make your way through your life by thinking and learning, and you have the job of advancing humanity's knowledge by winnowing out the errors of past generations and finding deeper understanding of reality. You will not find wisdom in rituals and sacraments and dogma, which build only self-satisfied ignorance, but you can find truth by looking at your world with fresh eyes and a questioning mind.
It is still just a cracker Sandi.
I love all the evil crap you idiots seem to think is equivalent to throwing away a cracker.
I love the fact that you completely ignore what started this whole thing.
Shorter Sandi:
"I'm agressively stupid and don't know what I'm talking about!"
(Sorry, MAJeff for stealing your schtick. You can have it back now.)
OMFG! How *could* you throw that banana away with such abandon! Have you no respect for the feelings of the bananists??? ;P
Cheers, PZ! Greatest post ever!
Gee, killing muslims and desecrating what they consider to be holy was such fun! What shall we do next? I know, let's burn witches on our front lawns, and yell "I hate witches!" to every witch we see. Better yet, let's wear swastika tee-shirts emblazoned with the words, "The holocaust was a fake!" Boy, do I love being an intolerant hate-filled Catholic. And it's great to have the Pope and many folks as my compadres in arms. The world is a much better place because people like us rule it, right? Morons.
Bob Smith #1454 wrote:
Since goodness and beauty are evaluations -- reactions by a subject or observer -- it makes no sense to talk of them as being totally 'objective.' But that doesn't mean they're necessarily totally arbitrary. There is also the category of "intersubjective" -- shared in common by all subjects.
Could God be "objectively good" or "objectively beautiful" and yet fill every reasonable human person (including yourself) with horror and disgust? If so, then the "objective" label doesn't add any value to those concepts. Instead, the word becomes meaningless. If not, then you -- like us humanists -- are forced to appeal to the rock of intersubjective standards grounded in humanity itself.
Something cannot be "beautiful," and yet every person know it, understand it, and consider it ugly. The standard we measure things against -- even when it comes to God -- has to be internal. It's the same whether God exists or not.
"Truth" is different, I think, in that something could be true, and yet all humans could believe it to be false. The external standard we measure our beliefs against is reality -- and it never cares what we think.
Paul Zachary Myers is awesome.
Sincerely,
David Duke
Hey Myers: Thanks for ranting about the Catholic Church in the Year 1215. Did you know we're now in the year 2008? Maybe you didn't get the memo. I've heard of long grudges, but this is ridiculous. Maybe you're compensating for your shortcomings in other areas. Tee-hee.
I am saddened and sickened by your blatant disrespect for others beliefs as well as your mistreatment of Christ in the most holy Sacrament of the Altar especially on Thursday the day devoted to the Eucharist. You will remain in my prayers for a long time. May God have mercy on your soul. I should not want to be you at the moment of your death.
Pax et Bonum,
Debra
Nick, I'm afraid you're confused. The good professor said, as I quoted, that we have a job to do, but there's no one and nothing to assign us that job. Ergo, we don't have a job. There are tablets of stone, of course, and we are free to believe them, just as we're free to believe anything else, and we're free to decide by rational debate or by force or however that it is we come to believe what we believe. I'm not saying you don't believe your life has meaning or purpose. I'm saying that whatever meaning or purpose you believe it has is entirely a creation of your own, and, to use your phrase, has no purchase on the rest of us. The dear professor may think his life worthwhile, even sacred, but that isn't binding on anyone else.
Did Debra just say boner in latin?
Debra, try reading. He did this on WEDNESDAY. It wasn't revealed until Thursday (after the trash had been taken away)
Bob Smith (1454)
Objective (truth, beauty, love) vs. the subjective of such is a false dichotomy. This argument is constructed by theists to denigrate those who do not believe in His Royal Proclaimations.
You might want to try catching up with the 21st century. Goodness, love, beauty are all evolutionary constructs. They are not denigrated by being such nor are they some ideal of perfection.
Sandi and Ed really think that treating a wafer as mundane = membership in a murderous organization? I thought we've always been assured religion was supposed to be morally enlightening.
TO #1504: don't put my name on your lousy posts. If you don't have an original thought, keep silent. "It is far better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
Gee Sandi (#1495) - only a True Christian could unabashedly use the N-Word. Good job on that.
JBS
he said it "question everything".....that photo is an obvious fake.
Ed,
Are you 4 years old? Shouldn't mommy put you to bed now?
I teach English at one of Asia's premier science and technology universities, working with its graduate school of life science. There are many Christians in the department, both among the faculty and students.
And even among the non-Christians and atheists, such a juvenile act would never be considered. In Confucian societies, the title "professor" presupposes a certain level of maturity.
Also, the professors and students here in South Korea tend to stay in their labs until midnight or after everyday of the week, studying protein interactions and such things that might someday lead to cures for cancers and other diseaseas.
You've got too much time on your hands, sir, and are covering up the fact that you're not a very good scientist.
Sandi #1514
Now the irony meter has to go back to the shop for recalibration.
perhaps Paul Zachary Myers is reading his "atheist creed"....oh wait, nothing is sacred.......or is it......
deang , I understand your point. I assume he just used what was laying around the house at the time though. This whole jebus cracker BS was not on his list of priorities. The catholics sent him copies of the Koran, so he happened to have that, and of course, he happened to have The God Delusion.
I'm sure there's someone out there who might be willing to find a large collection of religious items and desecrate them, but most of us don't care enough to bother.
I have thrown Korans and Bibles in the trash. Not because I felt any anger or wanted to desecrate them...but because I was moving and wanted to lower our weight. (we're military, we have weight limits). To me they are nothing but books and not wanting to facilitate the spread of those religions, I threw them in the garbage. To me, they are garbage and were put where they belong.
Something happened once that was very odd . My mother took one of the Korans my ex-fiance gave me (He is Muslim). I wondered where that one had disappeared to. Well, Last year she told me she had it and had been reading it for the last few years. I asked her why. (She's a Southern Baptist nutjob fundie). She answered that she wanted to see just how evil and vile Muslims really were. She has become quite hate-filled towards Muslims. (Her church also encourages this). I asked her if she replaced the god of the bible with Allah or another name would she perhaps look at the bible the same way she looks at the Koran, as a book full of vile, evil things. (I'm not even sure if she realizes Allah and god are the same make believe entity)
She got mad at me and refused to discuss it further.
The Western Confucian
A question for you.
Is a cracker more important than a person?
You're very kind, melior. :)
Probably this Meyer fellow everyone keeps talking about. He gets up to all kinds of things.
#1497 by Cafeeine
OMG - you don't know how many times my digital copy of the bible (I think it has 10 different translations) has been desecra... deleted from my hard drive! I'm a true sinner and there is no hope for me now! Don't anyone bother even praying for my soul as I obviously have none.
JBS
Am I the only one that finds it hilarious that Ed took 4 minutes to go from 3 lines of X's to several more...Ed: learn how to use cut and paste. It's really a waste of effort to type that many X's. Not that I really want you to become more efficient at spamming, but it is pretty funny. Btw...you Christians are the ones who believe that the only way to get meaning in life is for someone else to tell you that is is meaningful and what that meaning is. You are the ones open to life not having meaning if there is no god telling you what it means. I feel sorry for you guys...
Of course I DID achieve orgasm through the creative use of a crucifix.
Thomas@1509,
You really are remarkably stupid, or else dishonest. I think the latter more likely because of your patently insincere labelling of Myers as "the good professor". Myers final paragraph outlines what he would like people to adopt as their goals and purposes. He is trying to persuade people to adopt particular values. It's part of the free debate I mentioned in my last post.
The dear professor may think his life worthwhile, even sacred, but that isn't binding on anyone else.
Do you know, Thomas, that sounds remarkably like a threat. But cleverly done - not too explicit.
observer #1491 wrote:
This has been puzzling me too. Why this insistance by some of the believers here that the episode must have been "faked" out of fear?
I don't know, but my guess is that they're trying to imply that PZ (like all people, including all atheists) really knows -- or suspects -- there's a God, and therefore he can't quite bring himself to bring down God's wrath by desecrating an actual consecrated wafer. He has to fake it. The fantasy is that this will be found out, and it will become another atheist-in-a-foxhole type anecdote which will be gleefully passed around, confirming their faith and winning over converts.
I fear some of them are caught up a bit too far in their own propaganda.
Paul Zachary Myers is further proof that evolution is a farce.
PZ wrote: And if I wanted to be so evil that I would commit a devastating crime against the whole of the human race, twisting the minds of children into ignorance and hatred, I would be promoting the indoctrination of religion in children's upbringing, and fomenting hatred against anyone who dared speak out in defiance.
This child abuse is why, in my opinion, all religious people are extremely immoral, no matter how moderate they think they are.
I can't imagine any crime worse than lying to children, which is what all religious indoctrination is. There's no excuse for it. Parents and priests do it anyway, because they know that without brainwashing of young gullible children, their idiotic religion would be extinct in less than a century. This child abuse is what all religions have in common. It's the reason why children virtually always have the exact same religion as their ancestors, going back several centuries. The stupidity and insanity is passed on to each new generation. Some way must be found to stop it, even though the problem seems hopeless.
I suggest relentless ridicule of people who make a living from the money making scam called religion. I'm talking about the priests and the preachers. Every priest and every preacher makes a living from lying to children (when they aren't busy raping them). They're all assholes, and they all deserve nothing but contempt.
Gee Sandi (#1495) - only a True Christian could unabashedly use the N-Word. Good job on that.
Hey JBS #1495: To quote the great Professor Myers, "Nothing is sacred." Can't have your cake and eat it too, pal.
That's right, wrap yourself back up in that security blanket. Here's a pacifier for you, Dear.
*sticks something warm and squishy in Ed's mouth*
Thank you. Your blatant disrespect and ignorance have encouraged me to increase the humble practice of my faith. Thanks to you I am now a daily communicant and intend fully to pray the Rosary and remember you at Mass.
Debi
Me @ #1514: "It is far better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
Aren't I ironic?
Why do people keep on claiming the picture was photoshopped? I mean, there's nothing in the photo that is physically impossible to arrange in that fashion. Do they think it the picture was altered because the host isn't bleeding or something? Someone else claimed that the host wafer would have broken up when the nail was driven through it, but they do get considerably softer and spongier when stale (I grew up Catholic and pocketed a few wafers in my pre-adolescent days just out of curiosity).
I for one have had enough of the sock puppet troll fest.
Yeah, importing trees with a dangerous virus, what was he thinking?
Ref. #1421 - "Many generations ago, there were so many different believers in various messiahs that one has to wonder how come Christianity and Islam and Hinduism were selected for successful propagation over their many competitors."
The answer is simple;
-"Every major religion today is a winner in the Darwinian struggle waged among cultures, and none ever flourished by tolerating its rivals." - [ Edward O. Wilson; 'Consilience: The Unity of Knowledge' ]
Good job, PZ. It is truly amazing that people in the 21st century actually believe that a stupid cracker is the flesh of an invisible man in the sky, and that you could actually harm this supposed omnipotent being by harming this cracker. There truly is no hope for mankind if we persist in such idiocy. Come on people, IT'S A GODDAMNED CRACKER!!!
What shall we do next? I know, let's wear white hoods, burn crosses on our front lawns, and yell "I hate Niggers!" to every black person we see.
And *this* is a perfect example of why I think some of the crap the Catholic church teaches is not just harmless stupidity. It is virulent, soul-killing, mind-rotting stupidity that deserves to be ridiculed. You actually think threatening a wafer is the same as threatening or insulting a human being.
Re Tyler DiPietro @ #1429 and Ryan B @ #1433:
It was hardly the point of my analogy that some Catholics have the maturity of three-year-olds concerning their religion. But naturally that is true. Just as one can find a good many atheists that act childishly about their convictions, or conservatives that display immature conservatism, etc. None of which in any way or form excuses Prof. Myers'. What he claims to have done is - insofar as it is a highly publicized act - a gratuitous disturbance of the social order and of the emotional peace of a good many people, which has no redeeming features. In particular it will not contribute significantly to "making Catholics see the light of atheism", if one considers that to be a good. You need not believe in God in the least to see that.
Re Michael Glenn @ #1426:
Concerning the relevance of the supposed Qur'an desecration to God, from my perspective that is still an intended insult to the God of Abraham - it's just that the means chosen are to me not as significant per se (a Muslim would of course see that differently). But even if Prof. Myers' tried to piss off some neo-pagans by desecrating some symbol of Zeus, my basic point remains: nothing good will come of this even by atheist reckoning (well, perhaps some entertainment), but plenty of bad, so why on earth do it?
I wonder if any of the morons trolling this thread have realized yet that the most likely reason why none of them have been banned yet is because PZ wants their idiocy to be on full display. Stupid people are so predictable.
May the Lord God have mercy on your soul - God help you!
To those arguing about whether not the photo is faked: There is in fact no demonstrable difference between real desecration and fake desecration. If PZ turned up tomorrow with a video of him photoshopping up the photo, the Catholic league and its hordes of Jesus-flesh fetishists would still be ranting, raving, praying, making death threats and downloading low quality spam bots. This is true precisely because the consecration ceremony is without material effect, and the belief that it transforms a wafer into the Jesus-flesh requires that one accept the demonstrably fake as real. It is an inescapable consequence of a religion which has made thousands of outlandish claims about the world, and entirely failed to show evidence for any of them.
NOTHING IS SACRED....EXCEPT FOR MY "ATHEIST" CREED AND MY WHITE HOOD.
SINCERELY,
PAUL ZACHARY MYERS
Oh wow, at least one Catholic blogger is calling for August to be "Pray for PZ's Conversion" month. Some of the faithful are gonig to go to daily Mass, observe fasts and abstinence, and say lots of extra rosaries just so PZ can see the light and become Catholic. I think I'll celebrate my August with debauchery. Maybe I'll help to keep PZ an atheist that way.
"Thank you. Your blatant disrespect and ignorance have encouraged me to increase the humble practice of my faith. Thanks to you I am now a daily communicant and intend fully to pray the Rosary and remember you at Mass.
Debi"
So you're now accomplishing even more nothing than the respectable amount of nothing you were previously achieving.
Awesome.
Here's what I just sent to the University President.
I just wanted to send a quick note in support of Dr. Myers. The demonstration that not everyone shares the same sensibilities, while certainly jarring to some, is a lesson in free speech that is sorely needed in these Politically Correct times.
I strongly urge you to ignore those who are calling for his censure by the University (or worse), and stand squarely behind his freedom of expression and ideas. Just because ideas are based in religion, does not mean they should be immune from the light of examination and, sometimes, ridicule.
Me at #1464: "Oh Sandi's back again, yay! Man, you're a frigging idiot, Sandi.
But you know, I really do feel sorry for you. You just have no idea how much you're missing out on in life."
Aren't I so right?
#1482
In point of fact you cannot 'believe in' or claim to have objectivity without there being a Creator, a God. You yourself say it is relative whether or not atheists are objective - objectivity's existence is relative to the individual atheist is what you say (which makes it subjective, then, by definition).
Look at the stars in the night sky in a one-meter by one-meter square area. Each one is relative to another. None can claim to be the 'center' of the square meter of sky, but from each star's point of view, that star is the center.
Look at each country's 2-dimensional worldmap -- each country places itself at the center of their worldmap. And since we know the earth is a globe, none are actually the 'center' but each claims to be.
An outside observer is needed to objectively state which star is in the center, or which (or no) country is objectively in the center. An outside, non-partial, 'observer' or arbitrator is needed for there to exist objectivity.
So it is a contradiction for an atheist to say they believe in objectivity of truth, or goodness, or beauty.
That is what the j-man as getting at in his #700 post.
So you can either be an atheist or objective regards to truth, goodness, or beauty; but not both.
#1504 Posted by: Sandi | July 24, 2008 9:41 PM
You do realize that we atheists, liberal or otherwise, almost universally protest and decry the war on Iraq. However, your holy brother in office has prosecuted this war. Granted he isn't a Catholic - but it seems the irrational hatred by Christians of "others" isn't so constrained as to be solely the province of one denomination.
So, who exactly is hating on Islam, again?
JBS
Nick, yes, he's trying to get people to buy his made-up values, rather than the goods the other guy is selling. But why don't we laugh at both?
I'm certainly not threatening the good professor. Why would I want to hurt him? Others might, but that's between them, from my point of view, and I'll happily stay on the sidelines.
ndi | July 24, 2008 9:36 PM
I'll ignore the racist slurs since someone's already clocked you for that.
The KKK would not accept PZ. They are incredibly religious. Atheist are not allowed.
You are too particularly bright Sandi.
Let's repeat this one more time:
To all of you saying that critiquing religious ideology and assaulting and tormenting other human beings on the basis of their ethnicity are equal, here's a newsflash: you are insane. Ethnicity is not a choice and does not in itself make any truth claims. People are born into their ethnic identity without having a say in the matter. Religion is an individual's choice, and one which can be critiqued by others on the basis of the truth or falsity of that religion's truth claims. There is no reasonable ground for critiquing someone on the basis of their ethnic identity. Therefore, saying that the act of PZ Myers tossing those items into a garbage can is comparable to an ethnic hate crime is absurd. Get a grip. Think a little.
Observer, I'd suggest that the accusations of fakery are coming from those who truly want to believe that the true Eucharist, if desecrated, really would leak blood and ichor, scream, or do any of the miraculous things that it was described as doing when the Jews were accused of desecrating them. The cognitive dissonance produced by the idea that PZ simply and nonchalantly pierced it with a nail and tossed it in the trash without thunder and lightning and veils being ripped asunder is too much. If that's bogus, then what other doctrines are similarly so? Thus, the cracker must not be a Eucharist.
A second motivation for these otherwise baseless accusations is evinced when these Desecration Denialists (witness the birth of a conspiracy meme!) call PZ a coward. PZ is only a coward if he were deep down inside afraid of the wrath of Yahweh and substituted the consecrated host with an unconsecrated one in a version of Pascal's Wager. It's convenient to think of atheists and those of other religions as consciously aware of the truth of Jesus and in denial because they prefer hedonism, divorce, worshiping false idols, or whatever--by blaming the 'victims' of unbelief, God and his eternal torment no longer violate the universal aspect of justice. It's a trick to get around the question of the fate of the Noble Savage. If the Savage is actually not 'savage' or naively innocent but a willful apostate instead, then he must not be a Savage.
To us, the question of whether or not the cracker is consecrated is moot; the act of desecration and the response it provoked is salient. Hell, as you put it, we don't even belief consecrated ones exist in any meaningful way. But to them the cracker can't possibly be consecrated. Jesus just can't be tossed into the trash without a peep like the relics of any other of the gods whom they know to be fake.
I've just shit myself. I'll be back in a minute...
Ed
I'll ignore the racist slurs since someone's already clocked you for that.
The KKK would not accept PZ. They are incredibly religious. Atheists are not allowed.
You aren't too particularly bright Sandi.
THANK YOU, THANK YOU PAUL ZACHARY MYERS FOR RESCUING ME FROM THE CLUTCHES OF STUPID ATHEISTIC IDEOLOGY. I'LL NEVER HAVE TO BUY INTO YOUR CRAP EVER AGAIN OR THAT RIDICULOUS ATHEIST CREED!
IngoB,
I, for one, think occasional "gratuitous disturbance of the social order and of the emotional peace of a good many people" is a good and necessary thing, especially if said people have forgotten that the worth of one of their own is infinitely greater than a carbohydrate wafer. Why this is even controversial is beyond me.
My post at #1549 is in response to Sandi's post at #1534, just to put some perspective on what may otherwise appear as a very self absorbed post. You people post too fast... they were supposed to appear in succession, not with 20 other posts in between, haha!
Very well done, Mr. Myers.
The simplicity of the deed is most befitting of these useless items. Your closing paragraph is definitely a keeper, and words to live by.
#1508 Posted by: Debra | July 24, 2008 9:44 PM
Well, Debra, I can tell you for a fact, and without reservation, that not only would I not want to be you at your death, I wouldn't want to be you at any time.
JBS
Your last words were really something to print and frame in walls.
How pathetic that we live in an age with no rules, few, if any, moral boundaries, and outright hatred and disdain for the sacred and holy. Sadly, this freight train of debauchery is typically lead by our so-called intellectuals, egg-heads like Myers who proclaim themselves God and pretend to be the all-knowing lords of the universe.
I've got news for you Myers (and your mindless followers). One day, every knee will bend and every tongue will proclaim the greatness of our Lord Jesus. Sadly, for you and your followers, you'll at the same time be on your knees begging for forgiveness before His thrown of judgment.
May God have mercy on you all.
ATHEISM IS FOR KIDS.
SINCERELY,
PAUL ZACHARY MYERS
bob smith #1550 wrote:
Only if everyone agrees that this observer is the standard.
You have the same problem.
Did you miss me? Ok, back to my ranting....oh oh....I feel a full bowl coming on...oh no.......damn it....I've shit myself again....
Hey, I'll be right back for some more PZ hating....
"Hey Myers: Thanks for ranting about the Catholic Church in the Year 1215. Did you know we're now in the year 2008? Maybe you didn't get the memo. I've heard of long grudges, but this is ridiculous. Maybe you're compensating for your shortcomings in other areas. Tee-hee."
I've heard that some people are still sore at Jews for something that happened 1960 years ago or so. Somebody got crucified. That is a long grudge.
Ignignockt@1559
And it's a simple carb at that. Or do they sell whole wheat versions?
I am a Catholic and ask that even though you do not believe as we do that you look at the act itself. I would not take something you hold dear or care very much about and desecrate it. As a decent human being this is tacky and tasteless. No one is perfect and I will not judge anyone it is not my position to do so I will say that I am disappointed in the act and it saddens me to see this done but if you are correct nothing will happen and if you are wrong I cannot judge but he will judge.
God Bless
Joe
"You actually think threatening a wafer is the same as threatening or insulting a human being." #1540. Cheezits: Are you really that thick or are you just pulling my leg? Last time I checked, I was a human being. Catholics are human beings. By intentionally desecrating what I consider to be holy (i.e., the Eucharist) and by intentionally insulting and baiting Catholics, you insult me as a person. Therefore, my analogy to Blacks and Jews is perfectly on point. I don't consider the Holy Eucharist to be just a "wafer," I consider Christ to be present in it. Sorry, but I'm not going to lie down like a doormat and let you get away with insulting me and all that I consider to be sacred. Moron.
PZ, I came across your blog during this cracker controversy, and well...I...I think I love you.
Here's an interesting question:
Has a single supposed Catholic...in any of the multitudinous cracker threads...simply said "I forgive you?"
Sure, lots of them say, "May God have mercy on your soul!"...usually with an unspoken gleeful undertone of, "Boy, are YOU gonna get it when Dad gets home!"...but has any of them actually done the Christian thing and forgiven Prof. Myers?
Dear John nor would I wish to be you either. I am sure my husband is happy you are not I. Peace to you also. I am wonderfully content with my faith and my life. I hope you can say the same.
Ed, stop acting your age. It is embarrassing. At least *try* to look like a grownup.
Thanks for the Russell's Teapot link, whoever that was. Never read this comic before. It's a hoot!
http://russellsteapot.com/comics/2007/host-desecration.html
Paul & Mary Myers
300 College Ave
Morris, MN 56267
Oldest Son Alaric Myers, graduated from St. Cloud University 9/07
Middle Son Connlann Myers
Daughter Skatje Myers Attending UMM
Actually, let me revise that:
To all of you saying that critiquing religious ideology and assaulting and tormenting other human beings on the basis of their race are equal, here's a newsflash: you are insane. Racial identity is not a choice and does not in itself make any truth claims. People are born into their racial identity without having a say in the matter. Religion is an individual's choice, and one which can be critiqued by others on the basis of the truth or falsity of that religion's truth claims. There is no reasonable ground for critiquing someone on the basis of their racial identity. Therefore, saying that the act of PZ Myers tossing those items into a garbage can is comparable to a racial hate crime is absurd. Get a grip. Think a little.
Ok, I'm Back again.
I HATE EVERYONE THAT DOESN"T LOVE GOS LIKE I LOVE GOD WHO LOVES ME LIKE I...I.....oh SHIT....I just shit myself again....God DAMMIT!!!
I'll be right back..
Hey, Bobby Bambino. Good to see you're doing well.
Unfortunately, these "humanists" don't seem to have very much faith in the human race. They continue to tell me that human beings are not capable of only having sex with their spouse; they're telling me that human beings essentially have no choice but to have sex with multiple partners. They're telling me that free will is an illusion. I guess that means that Professor Myers didn't actually do anything courageous or intelligent; since free will doesn't exist, the professor had no choice in doing what he did.
I fail to see how it's a "humanist" point of view to argue that a human is incapable of exerting any sort of control over his or her actions. We Catholics, on the other hand, believe that people are responsible for their actions. Whether those actions are the rape of children, the murder of the unborn, the desecration of the Eucharist, or other serious sins, the blame lies with the person who committed such acts - not with his "genes".
You humanists blaming your genes for your bad actions... you might as well be using the old "the devil made me do it" defense.
Sandi, when you say something as ridiculous as 'I consider christ to be present in it (the wafer)' you lose all rights to call anyone else a moron. You're the definition of a moron, moron.
Regarding liberal education and thought, of which I am a strong advocate, how can you be so naive to exclude spirituality when 85% of the world believes in some form of higher power? Discounting the spiritual nature of humanity is an awfully narrow-minded world view. It was Aristotle who said "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" What troubles me is not that is being excluded; what troubles me it the voraciousness of the attack against it.
The Catholic Church has been persecuted for over 2000 years. The Catholic Church will always be persecuted - it's an occupational hazard. Regardless of your intentions and biases, we will pray for all of you.
It was the warm squishy thing I placed in Ed's mouth. (I filled it will a laxative.) Or maybe it's just his shit-fer-brains making it's debut.
Objectivity, relativity.
Complexity is measured on an absolute scale just like temperature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov_complexity). There is math in beauty, particularly symmetry. Symmetry of body is difficult for DNA to accomplish and shows that the specimen is healthy and desirable.
A decade ago, there was an article in Scientific American about game theory: simulated population with various heritable strategies such as tit-for-tat (revenge), altruism, and other strategies. The results were surprising. So we can say that there is no Optimus Prime that dictated all that has arisen from evolution, but to say that what has risen is relative is wrong. Just like the temperature scale, you are saying Celsius, when reality is saying Kelvin. There is objective beauty, complexity, value, and morality. But, as you'd see in chaos theory, there is no one true path handed down on a mountain.
That Ecclesiastes quote that "there is nothing new under the sun" is wrong, since the permutations of possibilities aren't linear. We come from chaos, and always there is something new that was never seen before.
What has become obvious is that some of you NEED to believe that an athiest can not become a happy, healthy, productive and upstanding person on their own. That would be a direct assault on your beliefs and so you reject the notion completely. Because if it were true then people wouldn't need to believe in all your nonsense and where would that leave you? Having spent so long with shackles on you telling you how to live and who to be? So, there is no point arguing with you because you can not face the reality.
"Verily, I say unto you, should an atheist strike you on the left cheek, yellest thou loudly at him and raise your voice unto the heavens. For his firing shalt thou loudly cry out; yea, verily, also shalt thou threaten his life. Callest thou all those who do not agree with you morons; mock and ridicule them."
The Gospel according to Sandi.
Bravo, PZ! I'm not sure I could have resisted eating the cracker--I'm a carb addict.
dear Catholics,
thanks for confirming in this thread that of those posting here most of you are
- vile
- immoral
- unconscionable
- closet anti-Semite
- authoritarian
- ignorant
- childish
- bed-wetting
- pedophilia-ignoring
- threatening
- death obsessed
- xenophobic
and much more.
Utter foolishness and infantilism on both sides here. This sort of crap is evidence of the variant effects that account for the erosion of a respectable liberal culture.
Sadly juvenile from an otherwise smart scientist.
This does not absolve Donahue and his ilk who speak for a specific grouping of Catholics not representative of all. It is all stunts of self-aggrandizement and whining that only divert attention from either doing good theology or good science.
Moreover, this nonsense is an affront to the respectability of the academic community. It is embarrassing that anyone of letters would engage in such juvenile whining in order to promote their pet project which has neither to do with reasoned behavior, nor responsible liberal citizenship.
Dr. Myers and Mr. Donague appear to be very suitable bedfellows indeed.
Hey Keith....look up Federal anti-discrimination policy. PZ Myers tossing the Holy Eucharist into a garbage can is absolutely comparable to an ethnic hate crime; even more so since it is blasphemy and disrespect toward OUR LORD AND SAVIOR (yes, He is your Lord and Savior whether or not you choose to believe). His actions were not only juvenile, but vile and representative of the worst hatred and disdain that humans can display toward one another. Clearly, Myers is a sad, small-minded, hate monger on par with the worst hate-mongers of the world; ie. KKK, Nazis, etc. There is no distinction.
Wow, Anon.
Post #1577 is the most vulgar display of cowardice I've ever seen.
Just want to give a big old HELL YEAH PZ! before this thread gets shut down.
Bob Smith @1550
All theists, without exception, are non-objective with regard to truth, goodness, and beauty. You really need to think these things through more clearly.
WHO KEEPS POSTING IN MY NAME?? YOU ARE MAKING ME LOOK LIKE AN IDIOT!!! STOP IT OR I'M GOING TO TELL MOM!!!
Amazed to keep refreshing on the thread to see how fast it grows. Now Ed has gone CAPS-TROLL insane and apparently its the atheists that are mindless. And #1564 which god or imaginary friend did you want to have mercy?
And as for the 'faked' eucharist - how exactly could you tell? Bleeding crackers makes think..
"
Do you get wafers with it?
'Course you don't get bleedin' wafers with it, its a 'bleedin albatross
"
Another Communique is due soon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2YpoiFddXs
Dear Black Wolf I have called no one names nor attempted to insult others. How interesting that you can garnish so much from so little. Either way as I have said I am sure myself and other Catholics fully intend to offer reparation to our Lord for this offense.
Pax et Bonum,
Debra
#1577
I disagree with PZ. However, I don't really give a crap how much you agree or disagree with him. The information you posted was over the top, abusive, and just general asshattery.
PZ speaks for himself. Drawing his wife and family into this situation is beneath contempt.
Shame on you. You have no place in civilized society.
Western Confucian, if you are going to teach English, you should learn the difference between everyday and every day.
Ray @1590 - like most rabid theists, you are wrong. Had you actually READ the federal anti-discrimination policy, you would know that what Dr. Meyers did was not discrimination.
Where are the intelligent or at least semi-intelligent theists on this thread?
what? no blood? no lightning bolt?
Ray, I notice you pick two religious groups. Bravo.
John Lewandowski (#1580) wrote: We Catholics, on the other hand, believe that people are responsible for their actions.
Did you think atheists don't believe that people are responsible for their actions?
In particular it will not contribute significantly to "making Catholics see the light of atheism", if one considers that to be a good.
Who cares about seeing the light of atheism? Just showing the world what an *unbelievably* (in every sense of the word), not to mention evilly, stupid doctrine the Catholic church espouses is good enough for me. You don't have to be an atheist to recognize stupidity. Or idolatry for that matter.
Now, any Catholics who are capable of seeing the stupidity for what it is have probably already left the church. Or maybe this little flap will be the deciding factor for some.
This is in fact the most over the top thing I have ever seen on the internet, or anywhere else. It's an honor to witness it.
P.Z., I do hope that you're taking appropriate measures to keep yourself and your family safe.
Keith, the desecration of the Eucharist is not a racial hate crime; it's a religious hate crime. But it is definitely a hate crime, by definition. From the Random House Unabridged Dictionary:
hate crime
-noun
a crime, usually violent, motivated by prejudice or intolerance toward a member of a gender, racial, religious, or social group.
What's the crime? Vandalism. Destruction of private property. Accessory to theft.
Sandi #1571 wrote:
I don't agree. The 'desecration' of the eucharist wafer was a direct response to the truth of an assertion: the cracker should be treated as if it were a sacred person, because that is what the Catholics believe, and this should be respected. The issue came down to whether or not it is reasonable to either conclude, believe, or act as if a statement of fact is true, when, to an impartial observer, it is clearly false. Should we pander?
So it's not like attacking someone's race or person. It's like attacking pseudoscience.
Sandi: Maybe your problem is that you think a piece of paper is more valuable than have a decent, respectful society. Where here have people been respectful to PZ's beliefs?
What if I had the belief that it was an atrocity for you not to send me $100? Would that in any way sway you to send me the money, even if I got really offended?
Of course not.
Y'all need to start acting like adults living in the 21st century and give up the juvenile and medieval barbarism.
I can't believe no-one's said this yet:
Garbage in, garbage out!
Sandi, you're a moron - on so many levels that I need a spreadsheet to keep track of all of them. You say things like: Did you know we're now in the year 2008?
If that's the case, why are you still obsessed with events that took place around 32CE? You say we're living in the past?
And the KKK? It's a proud Christian organisation. No atheists allowed. They just read a different bible from you, and hate most of the same people you're taught to hate.
Being 'black' or 'a jew' is a race not a religion (Judaism, however, is a religion and one can convert to it; that is a separate issue) and not something that is based on an idea. Religion is based on ideas, and is therefore open to criticism.
You give it away in your words: what I consider to be sacred - what you consider to be sacred. We don't consider it to be sacred. Your right to choose how to perceive something cannot trump our right to choose how to perceive that same thing.
We're ridiculing your beliefs - you don't want that to happen? Simple - stop holding beliefs people can consider ridiculous.
#1531 Posted by: Sandi | July 24, 2008 9:55 PM
Funny, I'm not even sure which Sandi this may be...
And funny too, because that may actually be a good point...
I'll have to think about it. Still, even if nothing is sacred, there are a lot of things that are good ideas and worth pursuing, such as avoiding using certain words as relative to certain portions of the population, not killing other people, and not filling heads full of mush with lies and false faiths.
I never claimed "Nothing is Sacred", BTW, nor am I an automatic follower of all PZ says.
JBS
Oh diddums! You poor persecuted Catholics. You like to go around spouting your intolerances under the guise of "conscience of faith." Yet, when someone plays with one of your little symbolic god-crackers, you start crying and sh***ing your colons with rage. Awwwww! Bigots are so cute when they demand unilateral respect.
@Drew #1589
Read over all the related posts by PZ on the matter. I think you have completely missed the point.
Again, witness the NEED to believe that we all somehow know the Truth yet are in denial.
Ray, I'll pay you five bucks to be a subject in a research study.
BobC: "Did you think atheists don't believe that people are responsible for their actions?"
I didn't think you believed that, but you have told me so. Numerous humanists on this very blog have informed that they think it is impossible for human beings to avoid having sex with multiple partners. In other words, they disbelieve in free will.
Nice one Sandi! I mean it's not like you believe that people who don't share your religious beliefs deserve to be tortured for all eternity. That would be mean and wrong. It's a good thing your idea of compassion isn't "You have the opportunity to agree with me and not be tortured."
Clearly it's the theists who hold the moral high ground. Thank you devotees of the one true roman and apostolic church hold strong against a rising tide of intolerance.
Rock on PZ.
I love irony. Self-important theist hate-mail makes me giggle.
If it was some other religion arguing for their silly magical practice to be respected, they'd be able to see how crazy they sound-- but when it's their own "woo"-- they are blind to the spinning they do to keep it alive. (Try it, Catholics, --plug in "magical Mormon undergarments" for "the Eucharist and see for yourself. Or plug in L. Ron hubbard instead of Bill Donohue or the Pope) See? Joyous.
Religions make people who need to spin and spin because they believe that "believing" in the right unbelievable story will make them live happily ever after. It's a crazy little mind virus-- I'm sure glad I was cured.
Praise be to PZ for vaccinated others against this virus and attempting to toss a life raft of critical thinking to the infected.
Let's walk into the 21st century together folks... come on... you can do it... it really IS just a cracker. We know you want us to understand your analogies... but try to understand ours. We really truly believe that it's time to put a rest to superstitions past so we can move forward with the kinds of truths that are the same for everybody no matter what they believe. We don't mind if you don't feel comfortable joining us just yet-- but we are offering a hand-- and we WILL continue to laugh at you, (because you are hysterical.)
Thanks for providing entertainment to this former Catholic girl-- --current proud atheist
I don't agree with posting Mr. Myers address and family names either. But in his own words "Nothing is to be held sacred".
A little history for all you religious idiots complaining about PZ's "blasphemy."
From Wikipedia:
"The last U.S. conviction for blasphemy--at least that of any significance--was of atheist activist Charles Lee Smith. In 1928 he rented a storefront in Little Rock, Arkansas, and gave out free atheist literature there. The sign in the window read: "Evolution Is True. The Bible's a Lie. God's a Ghost." For this he was charged with violating the city ordinance against blasphemy. Because he was an atheist and therefore couldn't swear the court's religious oath to tell the truth, he wasn't permitted to testify in his own defense. The judge then dismissed the original charge, replacing it with one of distributing obscene, slanderous, or scurrilous literature. Smith was convicted, fined $25, and served most of a twenty-six-day jail sentence. His high-profile fast while behind bars drew national media attention. Upon his release he immediately resumed his atheist activities, was again charged with blasphemy, and this time the charge held. In his trial he was again denied the right to testify and was sentenced to ninety days in jail and a fine of $100. Released on $1,000 bail, Smith appealed the verdict. The case then dragged on for several years until it was finally dismissed.
The US Supreme Court in Joseph Burstyn, Inc v. Wilson, 343 U.S. 495 (1952) held that the New York State blasphemy law was an unconstitutional prior restraint on freedom of speech. The court stated that "It is not the business of government in our nation to suppress real or imagined attacks upon a particular religious doctrine, whether they appear in publications, speeches or motion pictures."
May you be struck down by lighting!
Anon, you might want to do a little research on terroristic threats etc....it's pretty easy to see your intent and it will hold up in a court of law.
You demonstrate nicely why rational people think many religious people are evil. The possibility of putting children at risk seems to give you great pleasure. You're such a good christian. Your brethren must be proud.
I don't agree with posting Mr. Myers address and family names either. But in his own words "Nothing is to be held sacred".
Anon #1577: I hope your implied threat is not typical of those of your faith - whatever that may be. I suppose not using your name gives you some forgiveness from your "saviour"?
Act of Reparation to the Most Blessed Sacrament
With that most profound respect
which divine Faith inspires,
O my God and Saviour Jesus Christ,
true God and true man,
I adore Thee,
and with my whole heart I love Thee,
hidden in the most august Sacrament of the Altar,
in reparation of all the irreverences,
profanations, and sacrileges, that I,
to my shame, may have until now committed,
as also for all those
that have been committed against Thee,
or that may be ever committed for the time to come.
I offer to Thee,
therefore, O my God,
my humble adoration, not indeed,
such as Thou art worthy of,
nor such as I owe Thee,
but such, at least,
as I am capable of offerings;
and I wish that I could love Thee
with the most perfect love
of which rational creatures are capable.
In the meantime,
I desire to adore Thee now and always,
not only for those Catholics
who do not adore or love Thee,
but also so supply the defect,
and for the conversion of all heretics,
schismatics, lebertines,
atheists, blasphemers,
sorcerers, Mahomedans,
Jews, and idolaters.
Ah! yes, my Jesus,
mayest Thou be known,
adored, and loved by all
and may thanks be continually given to Thee
in the most holy and august Sacrament!
@gdlchmst #1612
I indeed have read over as much of this junk as I could swallow.
It's infantile and stupid. The comments I have also read on this thread are likewise. It is a caricature of puerility and nothing more. None of this is "civilized".
I got the point, and my reading of the situation is not favorable to either the ignorant atheists who continue to stroke the ego of their atheist heroes or the religious folk who are feeling bad about themselves due to this stupid self-aggrandizing act by someone who should be finding his business in other matters. All of it is stupid and not indicative of building an effective liberal democracy. I use that term because Myers apparently likens himself as a liberal. None of this crap is indicative of that position in the world.
Wow, at least one poster on a message board says that PZ "crucified Jesus anew" and that he even committed Deicide. PZ killed God?! No way!
articulett, have you come up with the ought that comes from is? If not, then why does it bother you that others are comfortable with their superstitions, just as you are with your new ones?
Act of Reparation to the Most Blessed Sacrament
With that most profound respect
which divine Faith inspires,
O my God and Saviour Jesus Christ,
true God and true man,
I adore Thee,
and with my whole heart I love Thee,
hidden in the most august Sacrament of the Altar,
in reparation of all the irreverences,
profanations, and sacrileges, that I,
to my shame, may have until now committed,
as also for all those
that have been committed against Thee,
or that may be ever committed for the time to come.
I offer to Thee,
therefore, O my God,
my humble adoration, not indeed,
such as Thou art worthy of,
nor such as I owe Thee,
but such, at least,
as I am capable of offerings;
and I wish that I could love Thee
with the most perfect love
of which rational creatures are capable.
In the meantime,
I desire to adore Thee now and always,
not only for those Catholics
who do not adore or love Thee,
but also so supply the defect,
and for the conversion of all heretics,
schismatics, lebertines,
atheists, blasphemers,
sorcerers, Mahomedans,
Jews, and idolaters.
Ah! yes, my Jesus,
mayest Thou be known,
adored, and loved by all
and may thanks be continually given to Thee
in the most holy and august Sacrament!
Ray@1590,
I'm no lawyer, so if you care to post relevant links to correct me, please do...but I'm very doubtful that anti-discrimination laws apply in this case, and I think you're just making crap up. Again, I could be wrong. If I am, please show me the laws.
I am absolutely sure there are no valid blasphemy laws in the USA. The implication that PZ could be prosecuted for blasphemy is just nuts.
It is not a crime in the USA to insult somebody's religion. Under most circumstances it's just rude. Under some circumstances it can be a moral obligation. If, on the off chance that it is, in fact, illegal to insult somebody's religion, then doing so would definitely be a moral obligation.
Great!
let's show everyone reading this thread how peaceful, tolerant non-threatening and morally superior Catholics really are, and how much they're being persecuted, by publishing the Myers' address, their places of education and their contact data after their lives have been threatened. Oh dang, a good Catholic's already done so.
Cowards. Jesus would punch you in the face.
You better stock up on band-aids to take with you in your coffin, because you're going to need them. And he's not using gloves either.
Cheezits wrote: Now, any Catholics who are capable of seeing the stupidity for what it is have probably already left the church. Or maybe this little flap will be the deciding factor for some.
I think you're right. For every dozen batshit crazy Catholics visiting this blog, there might another Catholic who has what it takes to realize the Catholic beliefs are bullshit, especially after watching the overreaction of the Catholic terrorists to cracker abuse.
So what if Catholics believe it is Jesus? If they believe that, then let them believe it, and leave them alone. Why attack them? Why bother them? Why provoke them? The poster about the white hoods and burning of crosses is on the mark -- this professor is demonstrating hate and bigotry of a group of people, just like the KKK. The KKK persecuted and killed Catholics as well as African-Americans (and also Jews and others too). This man is acting the same in his display of hatred towards others.
Most of those who claim support of his actions only launch into ad hominem attacks on posters who are against this act of hate - they claim to be of superior intellect but do not use their superior reason to explain why this act is different than the KKK's throwing a brick through a window of a black man's home with a note attached telling him to 'move away or else'? Or Nazis vandalizing Jewish shops to intimidate the Jews?
I see it as an offensive act that shows hate of a group of people just because you despise their beliefs. Just like the KKK or Nazis.
It is offensive. It is hate on display.
I see nothing but hate here.
(Here's an idea: why not go to Istanbul and enter the Muslim mosque, insisting on keeping you shoes on, since you find their requirement that shoes be removed due to it being sacred ground, to be nonsense. What the heck, right?)
Just leave people you don't like alone, will ya?
(and you have no standing in the UCF issue - any court could tell you that -- it is, in a word, none of your business about what happened at UCF.
Your argument can be paraphrased like this: I saw on the news that in another state a white man got removed from an NAACP meeting for yelling at the Blacks and making a spectacle of himself, so in support of that white guy, I am going to do the same thing over here.)
I repeat, just leave people you don't like alone, will ya?
Cheezits said: "Now, any Catholics who are capable of seeing the stupidity for what it is have probably already left the church. Or maybe this little flap will be the deciding factor for some."
A bunch of hateful atheists bragging about their master sticking a nail through the Eucharist will cause Catholics to abandon their faith? How's that?
The Eucharist has been abused by people for nearly 2,000 years. That doesn't mean we like it or intend to put up with it any time soon, but you shouldn't think that this kind of pointless bigotry toward Catholics is something new.
Does the Oxford World Classic Qu'ran count as the real thing?
I personally would not have f'ed with the Qu'ran after seeing the violence unleashed by mere Muhammed cartoons. And I also would not want my fellow Soldiers f'ing with it if I were stationed in Iraq or Afghanistan unless of course the Bible were right up there beside the Qu'ran on the target range.
Gladly bob, gladly. When they stop sending unsolicited crap, and stop trying to force their views being law, they can be left alone.
The argument that there's no difference between a real and fake desecration because one cannot detect whether a host has been consecrated is false.
While atheists and Catholic doctrine agree entirely that only the eyes of faith can see the body of Christ in a consecrated host, this does not mean that a consecration is undetectable by "objective" means. One can find out with high degree of confidence whether a priest has valid Catholic orders, and by direct observation, whether he is using the correct form and matter for the sacrament. Given these conditions, "ex opere operato" one knows that the host has been consecrated as far as Catholics are concerned. Hence it can then also be desecrated as far as Catholics are concerned. This knowledge is objective to the Catholic by faith about the sacrament, and objective to the atheist via prior knowledge about Catholic faith.
It's irrelevant whether Catholic faith is delusional or not, the difference consecration makes to Catholics is certainly real and detectable - and determines whether a desecration is "fake".
to all the morons hung up on "nothing should be held sacred": PZ was referring to ideas. No idea should be beyond criticism. Jesus f...ing christ, how old are you guys that these elementary things need to be explained? I mean seriously I normally try extra hard to be polite, even when confronted with utter imbecility. But you guys have collectively crossed a line today.
More mental masturbation from a deranged death cult.
PZ
If you've read my comments you know by now that I disagree with how you've handled this situation.
However, you're a biology professor and generally deal with other scientists, university folks, and students who generally fairly well put together individuals.
I deal with crazy folks day in and day out. #1577 really gives me pause.
My philosophy of life is "don't stir up the crazy folks." You can't deal with them on the same level as rational individuals.
Seriously PZ, #1577 is probably the most scary post that I've seen. People get pissed off and threaten to "beat your brains in." Most of those are just blowhards.
#1577 is what I'd classify as a "real" threat.
Be careful, you've really stirred up a whole bunch of crap.
protocol, what's the difference? I mean, there's this idea that says people shouldn't harm the good professor for his little performance. Is that idea sacred? If it isn't--if in fact someone concludes it isn't true--then that means something, right?
BobC, the unbelievable hatred that appears in your posts suggests to me that atheism is worse than the most twisted perversion of Christianity. Heck, you're even more hateful than Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist "Church".
Knowledge and wisdom are nothing without love. They cannot be separated; one cannot be in fullness without the other. Knowledge and "wisdom" without love are mere useless statements and quotes. Academia and all its lectures, discourses and books cannot even begin to equal true knowledge and wisdom. The fact is, science cannot explain existance. Physics, mathematics, biology and chemistry can talk ABOUT existance, what it's made of, and how the molecules move, but they effectively and wisely cannot explain the origin nor the reason nor the depths of existance.
Sorry, but I'm not going to lie down like a doormat and let you get away with insulting me and all that I consider to be sacred.
But you're still going to insult me, right? :-D
And I'm going to keep reminding you that what you believe is fucking STUPID and constitutes IDOLATRY. And I bet you know it too. It doesn't matter how hard you believe it - a communion wafer is not, in fact, anything but a wafer. Consider it sacred all you want, but don't expect respect. You can't help that your church fed you this nonsense when you were too young to defend yourself, but now you have no excuse. You choose to be offended by something insignificant.
John Lewandonski, #1606, wrote:
Er, wrong. Vandalism? Can you explain to me what is supposed to happen to the cracker? Isn't intended to be destroyed? I'm fairly sure that's not vandalism, since - apart from anything it does not affect the value of the object which is intended for destruction anyway.
Ditto destruction of 'private property' and accessory to theft. If you actually read through the post you'll find that the cracker he used was one obtained by a catholic who kept it and sent it to him.
So it was freely given - both to PZ and the person who sent it to him. No theft; not 'private property'.
Many ex-catholics have reported doing exactly that to crackers over the years. If you're going to charge PZ for what he did then I suspect you're going to have to do exactly the same to many thousands of people.
Good luck with that.
#1582 Posted by: JDH | July 24, 2008 10:13 PM
And the Jewish people have been persecuted for a few thousand years longer, if you read and believe their documentation... So what's your point?
Some of my ancestors were nearly wiped out by the invasion of Christians on multiple occasions and forced into slavery or some other horror because we were pagans. Generally, I don't waste time with that.
You really need to get over yourselves... since for several hundred of those 2000 years, Christianity (the Catholic, or Universal, variety) was the default government of most of the western world - you can't claim to be in-charge and persecuted at the same time. Well, technically, you can, but you'd be incorrect in said statements.
JBS
Sandi (1371)
"(you)...insult me as a person."
It is your ideas that are being ridiculed. If others are not allowed to criticize and laught at your ideas then you are not allowed to criticize of laugh at any other religion's ideas including jihadism or satanism. Get it?
That you personalize these criticisms is not our responsibility. You keep making a comparison between racism and your freely chosen set of ideas. The comparison, as has been pointed out, is baseless.
Bob,
How is the assault, harassment, and death threats towards the UCF student no one's business? Who issued the death threats again? Explain again how mocking the idea of transubstantiation = throwing bricks through windows. Do you really need someone to explain why a human life is of greater value than a wafer, and why this situation and those responsible should have been "left alone"?
All those who've refuted Bob Smith's ramblings, bravo. You've met the nail and the hammer. ANd JohnathanL sums it up best saying, "What has become obvious is that some of you NEED to believe that an athiest can not become a happy, healthy, productive and upstanding person on their own. That would be a direct assault on your beliefs and so you reject the notion completely."
The only thing I'd add is that, when a 'truth' is passed down via edict (such as being written in the bible), it is completely subjective. It is the subjective 'truth' of the book (or, you would say, your god) that says gays are an abomination or that uncovered nakedness is a sin. Claiming that your god is being objective for you... that's all kinds of weak, man...
My mother is Lutheran, so slightly different beliefs about what the cracker "is" than Catholics, but either way she is allergic to gluten, so she cannot take the cracker at communion... seems inconvenient for someone not to be able to partake in one of the two sacraments.
the good news is she cannot desecrate the flying spaghetti monster either
my new mantra:
WWPZMD?
Igni, I need an explanation of why a human life is of greater value than a wafer. I mean, I need a fully satisfactory one, that doesn't derive an ought from an is. Don't go giving us more of your made up moralizing--I can get that from the Catholics.
Okay, then please enlighten us.
Is the wafer in the picture consecrated?
Amanda, I'm going to quote a Christian writer named CS Lewis, so this will be in words you understand. It's from memory but I assure you the gist is correct:
Think about that for a moment. Assuming for the moment that the biblical narrative were true, Jesus said of people who pierced his physical (both in accident and in virtue) body; "Father forgive them, they know not what they do." But of anyone who would harm a child, he said; "Woe anyone who would cause one of these little ones to go astray. It would be better for them if a millstone were tied around their neck and they were cast into the sea." He said; "Let the little ones come to me, for of such as these are the kingdom of heaven."
Now I'm trying to imagine Jesus showing up and hearing you say that injuring a ceremonially blessed cracker is worse than stealing, worse than rape, worse than covering up rape in the name of God, worse than, well, anything. You think we should be impressed with your religious whining?
bob smith,
PZ didn't touch a single person. He did not go on Catholic blogs to attack them, threaten their lives, publish their addresses after his friends had threatened their lives, demand they burn American flags and crosses etcetera.
That is what your friends in faith did here.
If you think publishing your opinion on a blog and demonstrating what you think of primitive superstition equates exterminating an entire people, your conscience is practically non-existent. As many others have here, you are the one demonstrating why PZ did that. He brought your immoral, death-obsessed, ethically ignorant mindset to light. We now know that it is people like you who the world needs to fear, and that apparently Christianity is no better in its hatred of freedom and intellect, and its love for submission, totalitarianism and oppression than Islam, National Socialism and Communism. Thank you.
You don't even know what you're trying to talk about. Free will? Free from what? Your genes? Your genome doesn't predetermine everything you're going to think and do. No one with any cursory knowledge of modern genetics would argue that.
As for the sex part, here's a newsflash: most normal young human beings like to fuck, a lot. It's what keeps us growing as a species and it is one of those things that we do have a strong predisposition for. Read some legitimate academic studies on sex education and condom usage versus abstinence only programs. Those studies send a fairly clear message: pretending really hard that young people can stop fucking each other doesn't make it so, so it's best to try and make sure they do it safely and in such a manner that prevents unwanted pregnancies.
As for the multiple partners bit, I have no idea what you're referring to. Monogamy works just fine for me. Open relationships tend to complicate things on my end, but I suppose they could work for others. Not my call.
Most of the atheists I know believe profoundly in developing personal responsibility. We don't say "God did it" or "the Devil did it" or "I was possessed." We live right here, right now, and we accept that we are very much responsible for our lives and our actions, not supernatural mumbo jumbo.
As for sin, there's no such thing. There's evil and immorality, to be sure, but the concept of sin is once built around a superfluous supernatural struggle for acceptance and forgiveness from your particular Invisible Alpha Male in the Sky. We don't buy it. We believe in natural laws and natural law enforcement, coming straight from other Homo sapiens.
A bunch of hateful atheists bragging about their master sticking a nail through the Eucharist will cause Catholics to abandon their faith? How's that?
More likely, seeing the insane responses from their fellow Catholics is what will scare them off.
Hey fucktard John Lewandowski- What about the actual fathers that abuse their children. I was sexually abused by my CATHOLIC father for the first 14 years of my life and do you know what the judge said on his sentencing day (23 years ago)? He said: (and I paraphrase here) "I can't believe you are a man of God and served in the military and were caught (yes he said CAUGHT) doing this." I do not for a moment assign blame to the catholic church for his abuse but I do know that humans are just animals. We are prone to the instincts of survival and we are not a perfect specimen.
As an aside: my father was abused by his priest, the local candy store owner (a man who also was catholic) and his aunt (whose family, including my grandparents, were strict catholics). Go figure that out.
"I am saddened and sickened by your blatant disrespect for others beliefs as well as your mistreatment of Christ in the most holy Sacrament of the Altar especially on Thursday the day devoted to the Eucharist. You will remain in my prayers for a long time. May God have mercy on your soul. I should not want to be you at the moment of your death." - Debra.
But if God does have mercy on his soul, will the moment of his death be fine?
@1631:
He didn't destroy anyone's property, he didn't physically assault anybody, he didn't threaten anybody's safety or well-being--he posted a picture on the internet. Now who needs to leave who alone?
black wolf, please, share some ethical enlightenment with us.
Best post... full stop.
I pray also for whoever contributed our Lord to this horror and I pray for the professors safety both in this life and the next.
#1639 is on the mark with this relativism and atheism thing. If everything is relative, then if #1577 decides that, in his individual view of morality, doing harm to the professor is what his 'creed' calls for, then you others must support him and his right to act like this.
That is the logic you are espousing by defending this professor's actions.
And that is the problem with relative morality -it justifies one's doing harm to another. Who are you to say that he cannot do harm to another, if that is what he believes, if that is his 'religion'?
Amazing how many (deliberately?) misunderstood the "Nothing is sacred." statement.
That nothing is sacred doesn't mean that nothing is important, or that nothing is meaningful, or that nothing is deserving of respect. It means that no belief should be protected from a critical mind. And if a belief is unable to defend itself against criticism, it shouldn't be protected from the ridicule it deserves.
Calling a belief "sacred" just happens to be the most popular way of protecting it from questions and potential ridicule.
Since this thread is infested with Catholics, I would like to explain one of the reasons I threw out your insane religion 41 years ago.
An interesting thing about Catholics is they must believe what the pope tells them to believe. Thinking for yourself is a mortal sin (penalty for thinking = eternal torture in hell). When I was growing up we never ate meat on Fridays. Since the penalty for eating meat on that day was torture, eating it was out of the question. Unfortunately my mother (a wonderful person) was not too good at cooking fish. So one day a week, for my entire youth, I went without meat and fish. Then the pope said "Starting today, go ahead and eat all the meat you want on Friday. You won't go to hell for it." My reaction was 'what the fuck!' Why did I have to spend my entire youth going without eating meat on Friday? It wasn't long after that, after getting tired of my asshole pastor demanding more money every Sunday, that I finally figured out Catholics are insane gullible morons, and suckers to give their hard earned money to shithead priests. I stopped going to church and eventually I figured out the 'magic sky fairy hiding in the clouds' idea was nothing more than an idiotic invention.
a gratuitous disturbance of the social order
Be still my anarchist heart.
FrereJacquesbaudet, not only were the Nazis not real Christians, I bet they weren't real Scotsmen either. The bastards.
"He doesn't know the humble God of the universe who he seeks to desecrate.
Posted by: dina624"
Exactly! And if anyone knows how to be humble (or loving, or merciful), it's a deity who created an entire species whose sole purpose is to bow, scrape and worship or face eternal torture.
In fact, God reminds me of an old friend of mine, perhaps the greatest parent I've ever known. He had four children, two boys and two girls. Like any good parent, he loved his sons and sometimes even his daughters (when he noticed they existed, at which times he would remind them to remember their place and obey their brothers). He loved them so much, he demanded they praise him several times a day.
One day, his younger son decided to stop praising him. He told the boy he'd better start praising again, or he would be hit in the face with a hammer for 24 hours straight. The son refused, but the next day the father, being the epitome of love and mercy, gave him another chance. This went on for a month, but the boy still refused.
So the father started hitting him in the face repeatedly with the hammer for 24 hours. It pained him to do so, he didn't want to punish his son like this, but the boy wilfully refused to obey. He got numerous chances to change his errant ways yet would not.
So for 24 hours, this loving, merciful, and humble man beat his son's face with a hammer in the most loving, merciful, and humble way I've ever seen. My friend said the punishment would have been longer, possibly even forever, but he is only human after all. Not as gloriously omnipotent as God.
The poor man though. After all that hammering, he couldn't even move his arm the next day! He's decided that next time one of his children disobey, he's going to set fire to them.
I know I'm an adult and already have two parents of my own, but I want to see if this loving, merciful, and humble man can adopt me and be my father too. And no, not just because he's going to start hitting people who refuse to be his children in the face with hammers!
Damn, P. Zed, this has been enlightening. I honestly didn't know that the Catholics were so seriously fucked in the head. I'll never pass another of their fugly churches without cringing at the thought of the intentional brain damage being inflicted inside.
Muslims, sure, we all know about them, and the Jebus-humping evangelicals too... but the willful (WILLFUL!) ignorance displayed here by the Catholics is vertigo-inducing. What century is this?!?
Hey, Catholics! Being decent human beings: You're doing it wrong.
It's just a cracker. You mean Jeebus was from North Carolina too? Cool.
keith, you believe in made up laws coming from other people, as opposed to a story about those laws coming from other people. Why do you think that's a profound difference?
You are wonderful!! Did you have more than one cracker? If so, you should do a series with different demises for each...without going to any expense, of course. ;)
I will so have to watch this blog now!!
Good night sweethearts. #954 made me all squidgy, now I'm out for a shower & sangria. ;)
protocol, what's the difference? I mean, there's this idea that says people shouldn't harm the good professor for his little performance. Is that idea sacred? If it isn't--if in fact someone concludes it isn't true--then that means something, right?
do these ideas make truth claims? o.k. if you are not convinced by that, let us have a rational discussion about the "idea" or "principle" of not harming or threatening harm to anybody who happens to symbolically offend you. you non-vegetarian catholics offend me every day by eating meat (say i am jain, and religiously so). should i threaten the first catholic i see eating meat with violence? should i stalk them by email? should i threaten every catholic that laughs at, for instance, hindu beliefs (and trust me i have actually talked to enough Christians who openly mock polytheism, but somehow do not recognize their monumental hypocrisy)? hell the official catholic church discourages practices of other religions it sees as heretical and condemns those practices (the idea, i guess is to show "light" to the poor heathens and polytheists). notice no one here advocated actually physically threatening catholics for their beliefs. so by your logic all atheists should also openly threaten all catholics who have posted against pz here. indeed, we should actively seek all of them out and send them threatening emails because they threatened pz.
#1658, he offended and upset and hurt many people by doing what he did. Just like yelling 'nigger' at a black person is offensive. No property is taken in that situation either. What Jesse Jackson said off-mike the other day about Barrack Obama was offensive (he used the n-word).
For Thomas at #1659 - and the various sockpuppets he's using - try reading the post and the various comments here:
http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/an-atheists-creed.html
Well done PZ! Well done indeed!!!!!
Thomas,
A human life > wafer for a whole slew of reasons. The most utilitarian of which is simply that altruism = enlightened self-interest.
Janus, I'm inviting you to defend a proposition that others on the thread might ridicule: No one should harm the good professor because of his little stunt. Defend away! But, again, please don't derive an ought from an is. And to the extent you rely on little moralistic sayings, recognize that some of us know that those are entirely conventional--they're no different from the religious beliefs other people have, and worthy of no more respect.
Catherine said: "Hey fucktard John Lewandowski"
Hey polite lady Catherine.
Catherine said: "What about the actual fathers that abuse their children."
What about them? They are just as rotten as the priests who do it.
Catherine said: "As an aside: my father was abused by his priest, the local candy store owner (a man who also was catholic) and his aunt (whose family, including my grandparents, were strict catholics). Go figure that out."
That's terrible. I will be certain to pray to God that such atrocities no longer take place.
So, anyway... did Catholic teaching tell them to rape children? I don't remember reading that in the Catechism.
Thank you Dr Meyers. Thank you for proving that you don't need religion to be a complete prat. That being a douche is acceptable if you're certain that you're right. That it's perfectly right to be an idiot if you feel the other side is stupid. Thank you for ensuring that rational thought will never be brought into the equation. In short, thank you for being a fundamentalist moron.
Nobody is against anyone believing whatever crazy crap they want. People have been believing crazy crap for eons. Some of them are even schizophrenic or have other reasons for believing it. Some believe it because they were promised "happily ever after" for believing it. Some believe it because they are afraid they will be punished forever if they don't believe it. You theists must quit pretending that people are trying to get you to stop believing... just because they laugh at you. You laugh at Scientology, right? Aren't you atheistic towards Xenu? Are you trying to convert Scientologists? Our reaction to your nuttery is the same. Get over yourselves. It isn't the Scientologists being the wackaloons here.
Beliefs like fetishes ought to be kept private if you don't want people giggling at them. Just saying-- you don't get to demand what we are supposed to "believe in" or demand our respect. Yes, it's true, we do think you are deluded and we do think we are smarter than you. But you think you are saved for believing a silly story-- so we are equal.
Yes, I know you've been indoctrinated to "believe" that atheism is another "faith"-- it isn't. It's a lack of faith. It is the same as your lack of belief in Scientology or Astrology or fairies. Really. No more. No less.
Your brainwashing has lead you to believe it is something to fear or despise-- that's how faith works... like a chain letter-- pass it on and you get rewarded; bad things happen to those who don't. But try and use what brain cells your faith hasn't damaged to understand that atheism is just exactly like your non belief in Voo Doo. That's it. It's a nothing. If you don't believe in voo doo dolls you don't worry about whether you might be desecrating one. See?
Really pretend it's Mormons posting hear all upset because of desecration of the magical undergarments. See how ridiculous you sound-- how nasty, superstitious,threatening, dishonest, and goofy you sound. That's how you sound to us. I don't need to try to understand you because I WAS Catholic--I had the brainwashing... I'm sure I may have been the same bigots against atheists you were before I learned to reason--I understood that all faiths need to make believers fear the nonfaithful--because it's the biggest threat of all to keeping their delusion alive.
If you theists are lucky, you may have the blinders fall of your eyes too. There is no more evidence for your magical beliefs than there is for all the other crazy things you don't believe in. And you are only more moral in your delusional minds. It doesn't translate to reality.
If not, blame a brain seeped in faith.
But if you really have faith-- quite trying to spin your delusion here... the bible tells you to pray in the closet, remember? And I think your magic guy can fight his own cracker battles and smite PZ without your threats if he feels like it. Since you imagine all atheists are going to your Christian hell (which is no problem since you all are going to Muslim hell)-- why don't you be nice to us here since your faith tells you we will be suffering for all eternity. You know-- show that compassion you imagine you have. It really should exist somewhere other than in your head.
My two cents: I approve.
Thanks for the history lesson, PZ. It amazes me to think that this whole Eucharist thing started back with the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215 and involved so much ugly hatred. I know I had never heard of them before.
At first I really wondered why you were getting involved with the Florida student incident, but I didn't realize how very serious the situation had become in the US. The troll comments are very revealing as well as the threats the student and you received.
This whole cracker business should be a wake-up call to those both in and outside of the US. The situation could get worse if we ignore it, and it could spread outside the boundaries of the US. Rather than arguing with trolls maybe we should be discussing what we could be doing to prevent violence from happening over religion. I don't want to see history repeat itself.
Beautifully written PZ, and brilliantly executed. (Bad pun, sorry).
Nicely put. I've been aware of the cracker concept for a long time, never thought it would get exposed like this. Or especially that the catholics would be exposed as catho-islamists. I'm waiting for an embassy burning at this point.
What a sad cult.
Keyword, you vile and disgusting piece of shit is, noTHING.
Trying to endanger children's lives is not the same as upsetting people by dissing their religious beliefs. I know that to you they are the same, because you practice idolatry and worship crackers and wine and feel as though they are more important that living people.
(BTW, funny how that "blood of Christ" still gets priests drunk and the church opposes stricter drunk driving laws because they fear priests getting nailed for driving drunk. You'd think jebus would de-alchololize himself if he could. I wonder why he doesn't...could it because he's not real?)
Your reaction to Anon's post is exactly why I hold catholics in such low regard. Many of you care nothing about others, and especially nothing about children. You behave as though you're morally superior and yet you do unspeakable harm and evil.
wowbagger, "self evident" is a cop out. I mean, nothing's sacred, but some things are really fucking stupid. So, please, don't go asserting that the made up moral premises you want to live your life by are somehow self-evident. That's a way of avoiding the question.
Igni, I suppose that someone might adopt the view for all sorts of reasons, but what would you say to someone who declined? That they'd really be better off if they believed that the principle is true, or at least acted as if they did? Wouldn't some people say that about religion?
protocol, that's no a defense. You're saying that you think it'd be bad for Catholics if they declined to believe in the proposition under debate. But that's not a reason to believe that the proposition is true, is it?
BobC, you do realize that the prohibition on eating meat on Fridays is actually still in place, don't you? It's just that in the United States, that Friday sacrifice can be replaced with another form of sacrifice aside from not eating meat.
It's the sacrifice that's important, and not eating meat one day a week is a form of sacrifice. The meat in and of itself has nothing to do with anything. It's too bad you were never able to understand that.
JoeyD @ 1641
Right on JoeyD! Science cannot explain how the universe came to be. As all civilized people know the universe was created when the warm air of Muspelheim mixed with the cold air of Niflheim to create a cosmic cow and Ymir. To believe anything else would just be stupid!
John at #1687: it's too bad that you were never able to understand that a ritualistic Friday sacrifice is not, indeed, important. It means nothing!
I feel bad for you as well. You really are missing out on alot in life. Have fun depriving yourself.
Rayven, are you arguing with yourself? "Trying to endanger children's lives is not the same as upsetting people by dissing their religious beliefs. I know that to you they are the same..." Well, if to this person they are the same, that's the end of the story isn't it? I mean, unless you think your made up morals are true and his are false. You don't really think that though, do you?
Well done.
Christianity is a dangerous life-style choice. Today, we examine a particularly bizarre extention of this cult, called "Catholicism."
The typical lair of the Catholic is decorated like a charnel house, complete with multiple idols of a half-naked dead man, hanging on a cross of wood. Many inculde potraits of a long-haired white man with a flaming heart bursting out of his chest. This speaks volumes about their obsession with death, and torture... something their Church has been commited to, throughout it's history.
Though their men folk are almost always authoritarian, over-bearing predators, with a perchant to prey on children (in ways psychological, and carnal), their women folk tend to be timid, stubborn, and intensely stupid cows, who have neither the power, nor will, to oppose the atrocities of their men folk.
The most mystical and mysterious of the Christian Cults... Catholics are much more likely to scrape, and throw themselves prostrate before corpses that they consider to be Saints. It's true! This death cult actually keeps corpses of their dead, to flaunt in front of their fawning followers! It is a culf rife with magic practice, including exorcisms, magic spells (called "Novena"), and communion with unearthly spirits.
This is only some of what I believe of Catholics... so now you must respect my views as truth. Any attempt to discredit my words will be met with sticking my fingers in my ears, closing my eyes, and yelling "blah blah blah blah!" as loud as I can.
It's very sad that these so-called followers of Christ need atheists to remind them that their own alleged lord's opinions on what sort of action to take in situations like is quite plain:
Forgive PZ, think about your own sins, and pray.
I don't see 'go to a blog, splutter, spew hate and make death threats' anywhere in there. No wonder the other sects think so little of the papists.
Bob you, and others, have repeatedly said that all priests are pedophiles. If you truly believe that then act on it. When you see a priest immediately attack and kill him. He is a pedophile right? You would be protecting children. Don't you want to save the children? So either act on it or shut up. You are either lying and don't believe it or you are a coward and will let children suffer because you won't kill the evil priests. You have justified killing them, so let's see you put your money where your mouth is.
The fact is that you are using the children. You are abusing them again. You take their pain and suffering to use for your cause. You are raping those children all over again for your sick pleasure. You don't care about child abuse one bit, it's just a throw away line for you. They are meaningless to you.
For freethinkers you all seem to think and say the same thing. You claim that when an atheist does something bad it is as an individual and that we can't blame atheism. If I say that when a Christian does something bad it is as an individual and you cannot blame the religion under any circumstances will you buy it? The fact is that many atheists have killed for their atheism (and yes that includes guys like Stalin and Hitler both of whom were atheists). Don't bother to deny it, we aren't buy it. Atheism kills.
One poster here not only called me a pedophile but referred to me continually as "it." By doing so he was objectifying me. That makes it easier to kill ones victim. Sociopaths do that. They deny the humanity of their victims. There are some very dangerous people posting here that truly believe nothing is sacred. You atheists admit it. They reject the humanity of those who disagree with them. Atheism is inherently violent. You doubt me? Then read this eyewitness account of atheist Christopher Hitchens at a meeting in New York:
"At the end of the event as he staggered, sweating and red faced, out of the room, he [Hitchens] advanced on Father Rutler in a threatening and physical manner, screaming that this beloved pastor and brilliant scholar whom he had never met was `a child molester and a lazy layabout who never did a day's work in his life'. His behavior was so frightening that a bodyguard put himself between Hitchens and Father Rutler to protect him. Several of the event organizers then escorted Hitchens to the men's room and when he emerged he continued his psychotic rant, repeating the same calumnious and baseless screed as before."
Atheism at its best.
Lisa has it almost right: It means nothing. Except I'm guessing she doesn't really think that. I mean, having fun in life means nothing too, and yet she thinks it's important.
Great post! That last, beautiful paragraph in particular.
Dear PZ,
I set the large version of the picture to be my desktop background. However, it was too gross. Anyway, thank you.
What I find amusing is all the catholics still posting here. PZ has obtained about 1700 posts in this thread in about 8 hours. Probably not a record, except maybe for Seed and ScientBlogs, but still very significant. This is ammo he can use with the University administration if they ever bother to discuss the issue with him.
John Lewandowski wrote:
Mr. Lewandowski, 'hate' is a very strong word. I don't think I hate anyone.
However some people are so bloody stupid, so gullible, and so obviously insane, I don't think I would want to have anything to do with them.
All religious people have something wrong with them, otherwise they wouldn't be religious. But fortunately some religious people, including Catholics, are not totally insane. They would probably give a shit if somebody didn't want to eat a cracker. They probably go to church only once or twice a year.
Unfortunately a large percent of religious people are so completely out of their minds, they're dangerous. They're so insane that they would violently attack a person who didn't want to eat a magic cracker. They would try to get that person, if he was a student, expelled from his university.
If a religious wacko was a world-class stupid asshole priest like Fr. J, he would try to get the person put in jail for not eating the magic cracker.
These kind of people deserve to be ridiculed for the rest of their pathetic lives. They are no better than Muslim terrorists and they deserve to be treated like terrorists.
Sam said: "Thanks for the history lesson, PZ. It amazes me to think that this whole Eucharist thing started back with the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215 and involved so much ugly hatred. I know I had never heard of them before."
Professor Myers is entitled to his own religious beliefs, but not his own facts. The belief in the Eucharist existed hundreds of years before 1215:
"And he was carried in his own hands. But, brethren, how is it possible for a man to do this? Who can understand it? Who is it that is carried in his own hands? A man can be carried in the hands of another; but no one can be carried in his own hands. How this should be understood literally of David, we cannot discover; but we can discover how it was meant of Christ. For Christ was carried in His own hands, when, referring to His own Body, He said: `This is My Body.' For He carried that Body in His hands."
-St. Augustine, 4th century
AHAHAHHAHA
A.
GOD.
DAMN.
CRACKER.
!!!!
John, you do realize that the point of fish on Friday isn't sacrifice, right? A corrupt pope made that edict after getting bribed by fishermen.
Fr. J: so you admit that child molestation and rape by priests is a real problem? Then why the fuck aren't YOU doing anything about it?! Why are you not sickened and appalled by it as we are? Your last post really shows what a sick and dangerous fuck you are. Catholicism at its best, my friend.
@Bob Smith #1631:
This is the internetz, not a church, not somebody's home, not actually a public place. It's virtual (in a teleological way).PZ threw the cracker away in his own house. He published his thoughts on his blog.
No one is obligated to come here and read what he did. If you hadn't come here of your own free will, you would not have been offended. Now get thee hence and say 3 Hail Marys.
Sandi, the Haldol is in the medicine cabinet. Go take some and then say a rosary.
Ed, ok Senator McCain, we're on to you. Glad to see that you've learned to get online. Now get the hell off!
It's really sort of depressing how many "good Christians" are willing to wink knowingly at #1577's actions. Bob, I'm looking in your direction here.
"Bluster, splutter, well, of COURSE I don't condone posting information that could possibly put innocents in danger...but, gee, he had it coming, and he kind of asked for it, and, and, and..."
I see no difference between these folks and the "moralists" who insist that they don't condone rape, but, gee, if that little Jezebel hadn't been dressed like a tramp and had been at home where she belonged, it never would have happened...
Hey Sandi!
Why don't you get your codswalloped brain out of attack mode and answer the questions I asked in post #1340.
Let me repeat them for you-
How exactly do you determine the validity of the consecration of a wafer resulting in its transubstantiation? How do you arrive at that logical conclusion that the wafer then transforms into the physical flesh of Jesus, or is it the essence of Jesus?
I smell a hypocritical turnip, and its name is Sandi.
.
ChristOCrackers - Without 'em, you don't stand a Holy Ghost of a chance!
...
..
.
Fuck you god I hate you.
LisaJ said: "I feel bad for you as well. You really are missing out on alot in life. Have fun depriving yourself."
Lisa, self-denial teaches a person humility and temperance. Perhaps if more humanists developed these abilities, they would find it possible to not have sex with multiple partners.
You don't need to be religious to value humility and self-control.
"Lisa has it almost right: It means nothing. Except I'm guessing she doesn't really think that. I mean, having fun in life means nothing too, and yet she thinks it's important."
What?!?
It's the sacrifice that's important, and not eating meat one day a week is a form of sacrifice. The meat in and of itself has nothing to do with anything. It's too bad you were never able to understand that.
Posted by: John Lewandowski
The only thing I needed to understand was I wanted to eat meat but I couldn't eat meat because your asshole shit-for-brains pope said I couldn't eat meat.
By the way, us atheists can eat anything we want, and we don't have to sacrifice anything.
You gullible morons let your idiotic religion run your lives. You're slaves and you don't even know it.
You threw in the garbage something you believe to be a cracker, while garnering all the attention you could milk out of it, solely for the purpose of showing a billion people - who never did you any harm - how much you hate them. Congratu-fucking-lations.
@GOD, 1439
--whoo--
eep. dood. big hit. all yours. man. whoah. good stuff. thanks for that.
----phooooooo -----
Wow. Jah love. 'S funny stuff, innit?
"You deserve to die for this. You are lucky that Catholicism, unlike Islam, is not a violent religion. Nonetheless, watch your back.
Posted by: Inquisitor"
LOL!! Professor Myers, I believe you have succeeded in proving what you set out to demonstrate.
Lisa, child abuse is a problem among all races, classes, religions, and yes atheists. It is a human problem. If priests were the ONLY abusers you would be right. But the vast majority of children are abused by relatives, teachers, and others. Percentage wise the number of priests is below the national average.
BUT if you really want to know the problem, and this is not politically correct, the problem is homosexuality. Now the homosexuals will go nuts, but even they privately know it is true. They get you to concentrate on a few priests and to ignore the real culprits. That is sick and dangerous. It is even more dangerous that you are so easily manipulated. Now if you think I am being hateful and bigoted...think of the children. If you care about them then concentrate on the real threat. You should be brave enough to go against political correctness if that means dealing with the real problem, right?
"#1658, he offended and upset and hurt many people by doing what he did. Just like yelling 'nigger' at a black person is offensive. No property is taken in that situation either. What Jesse Jackson said off-mike the other day about Barrack Obama was offensive (he used the n-word)."
Yes, those are both highly offensive, but neither one is comparable to any of the scenarios you described earlier (which involve acts of physical destruction and the literal invasion of personal space), nor is posting a picture on a personal blog, no matter how offensive it may be to some people. No one is twisting anyone's arm to visit this site, and as has been said countless times before, there is no such thing as the right to not be offended.
Um, excuse me.
Does Prof. Myers ever find time to conduct scientific research, publish in Biology and lecture to students of the subject in between torturing crackers and posting bizarre, anti-catholic blog entries?
And does the University of Minnesota have an Islamic Students Association? They might not be so harmless as the christers.
Fr J:
A bit of reality. Hitler was a christian, not an atheist. It is, of course, inappropriate to tar all christians with the brush of Hitler. But you are either lying or grievously misinformed.
@Fr J, #1694
Hitchens was a Marxist pundit before he was an atheist pundit. Marxism is unscientific in that its propositions are not falsifiable per Karl Popper nor are its hypotheses divisible, Marxism is meant to be indivisible and unfalsifiable. Hitchens came from a non-scientific background and now he's the show atheist on Fox News or what have you, but that doesn't mean that rank and file atheists subscribe to his style.
That said, he is good at ripping into people, now and then.
BobC, for some reason, not eating meat one day a week doesn't COMPLETELY RUIN MY LIFE. Wow. Talk about a Holy Cow.
And you're being hateful again!
Rob said: "John, you do realize that the point of fish on Friday isn't sacrifice, right? A corrupt pope made that edict after getting bribed by fishermen."
Was that before or after the Easter Bunny ate Santa Claus' Gingerbread Men, resulting in the Salem Easter Egg hunt?
What I could see of the Quran page was in English. If it's an English translation of the Quran, then by Islamic standards it's not a Quran at all, and indeed belongs in the trash. (Which of course puts in doubt any non-poetic meaning of the Quran, but that's another issue.)
PZ, despite yourself you are a religious thinker. You wish to debunk images, like Abraham smashing idols, or a Zen master burning a Buddha statue, or Russian Iconoclasts breaking ikons, or Puritans making a bonfire of the vanities.
Such purist zeal is refreshing, within limits. If you tell this sort of joke once then you're a wit, but if you tell it twice then you're a half-wit. And alas, those in most need of the jest are the least likely to get it.
Skewering (literally!) atheism along with Catholicism and Islam was a nice touch. It shows circumspection and irony. You say; doubt all, even me. Well, yes.
You FUCKING BASTARD!!!! You will pay for desecrating a the God Delusion!! Richard Dawkins will drive nails through your eyes and rip your ears off and pull your teeth out for all eternity for this!!! And I'll be laughing the whole time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No Fr. J, the problem is organized religion. It is sick and dangerous, as the so-called religious posters, yourself included, have demonstrated time and time again.
Before I even read the posts to come calling me names for pointing out the problem of homosexuality let me just say:
Nothing Is Sacred........right?
Posted by IngoB #1541: -"It was hardly the point of my analogy that some Catholics have the maturity of three-year-olds concerning their religion. But naturally that is true. Just as one can find a good many atheists that act childishly about their convictions, or conservatives that display immature conservatism, etc. None of which in any way or form excuses Prof. Myers'. What he claims to have done is - insofar as it is a highly publicized act - a gratuitous disturbance of the social order and of the emotional peace of a good many people..."
A gratuitous disturbance of the social order? A disturbance of the emotional peace of a good many people? WTF???
You can have 'social order' and 'emotional peace' in a PRISON mate, but that doesn't neccessarily mean that the rest of us would like to live in one.
Every time I look at this page, it seems that one more piece of idiocy has been added to it.
"May the Lord have mercy on the cracker, and may God forgive you, because I won't!" (mumble fuck, mumble fuck)
Lisa, just what I said. You tell yourself that what you believe is true, but your beliefs have the same foundation as the beliefs of those you disagree with. "Having fun" isn't any different from anything else people believe is important. And none of its important, except to you.
I don't know why we have to keep repeating this but here goes AGAIN....
For those who think we Atheists are ever so mean for picking on religious folk by doing this, please take a moment to look around and notice where you are.
This is not a Catholic website. We did not invade their space and force them to watch PZ desecrate a cracker.
This is PZ's PERSONAL blog. It is frequented by mostly ATHEISTS. This is PZ's space. the catholocs invaded and WANTED to get offended.
They feel violated because they WANT to feel violated. They are here by choice. They came here for the purpose of getting offended. They need to take responsibility for that choice.
We did not walk into their *home* and start picking on them, they came to ours and chose to get angry about what a group of Atheists were doing to a cracker in a personal blog.
That is the problem with religious thinking. You feel people are forced to respect your silly beliefs even within their own personal space. That is what is abusive. Someone desecrating cracker and sharing the experience with friends in his own personal blog is not abusive.
Intrusting. PZ desecrated The Frackin Cracker... and yet the world has NOT in fact come to an immediate and spectacular end! What could this MEAN, I wonder? Maybe that the whole Body of the Host is a LOAD OF CRAP?
Because the major laws we have in this country today, while not being anywhere near perfect (nor should they ever be expected to be), have evolved through centuries of intellectual trial and error and progress. Most of them are on the books because they currently make some sort of good sense, but are subject to change once better understanding comes along. This is very much unlike the Bible, which claims to have had all of the answers a little under two thousand years ago. Freethinking people have consistently shown this not to be the case and that the Bible is very wrong on very many fronts. You may want to start researching beyond your little holy book, it's outdated.
I prefer law which is human made and gradually self-correcting over untouchable sacred nonsense any day.
IM WITH #1721.
F*CK YOU MYERS. YOU THINK YOUR SO TOUGH, DESECRATING "THE GOD DELUSION"... IF YOU HAD TOUCHED "BREAKING THE SPELL", EVERYONE WOULD BE RAISING HELL RIGHT NOW. EVERYONE IS ALWAYS PICKING ON DAWKINS. I BET YOU WOULDNT MESS WITH A COPY OF "GOD IS NOT GREAT", COWARD.
bob smith #1662 wrote:
You can only persuade people to change a moral point of view by appealing to a common standard which they already share. You don't get an 'ought' from an 'is' -- you get it from an 'if/then.' If you wish to be moral (good, fair, kind, just, happy), then you ought to do X.
Even religious morality relies on this. IF you wish to be moral (or happy), THEN you ought to obey God. It works the same way.
The problem is, that there is nothing more subjective than religious belief. Gods go everywhere, in all directions. What a person chooses to have "faith" in -- and how he interprets what he believes God wants -- is largely the result of arbitrary accident of culture, upbringing, and matters of taste. And, unlike secular morality, it can't be firmly anchored in common ground and demonstration.
Who are you to say that the Muslims suicide bombers are wrong about God, when they know themselves that God doesn't want them to listen to you? The easiest way to justify causing harm to another is through religion, because human accountability is allowed to hide behind God's commands. What appears true on the surface can be 'false' to the believer initiated into secret revelations held only by the other believers like them, and given by a God whose demands cannot be questioned.
I think you have it backwards, then. Secular morality can more easily find common ground, because we all share this world, and a common human nature. Ethics which are relative to God can throw off the world, and we don't share a common religion.
Once morality gets into arguing over what God wants -- instead of what leads to fairness and happiness here on earth -- then all bets are off. It is easier to persuade someone that they're wrong about a fact in the world than it is to persuade them that you know God, and they don't.
Fr. J @ 1694
Hitler was a catholic. He went through confirmation. He even claimed to be a catholic on numerous occasions.
"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."
Hitler donated money to the catholic church up to April of 1945. I guess that when he used the word god in all those speaches he was referring to a different god or something. Or perhaps he wasn't a true Scotsman.
Hey God you make me sooo wet. God, why don't you stroll over here and place that wooden stake in my hot quim? You can eat crackers in my bed anytime you big immortal being you. God I am sooooo fucking hot for you, like a choir boy in heat spread eagle on a pew. Waiting patiently for you smoldering love bone... Fr.J
Nothing sacred, right?
Fr. J - disingenuous turd:
You do seem to have trouble with reading comprehension, but I'm feeling indulgent (and you don't even have to pay me for it, unlike your church leaders).
Atheism = not believing in god/s.
That's it. The whole thing, summed up. Nothing else. No moral code, no rulebook, no instructions on how to behave, no guidance - nothing. Atheists may construct their own equivalents, but that's up to them. Nothing to do with their non-belief in god.
I'll re-use an analogy you conveniently ignored before - you're looking at a bald man and telling him his non-hair is parted on the left and not the right.
That an atheist can be an asshole has absolutely no reflection whatsoever on atheism.
Your religion, on the other hand, claims moral superiority because of a special relationship with god. Oh, of course there's the convenient excuse of free will or human failings or the corrupting influence of original sin or whatever tapdance routine your professional obfuscators have come up with to try and conceal the facts that people who believe are no more moral than those who don't.
Apart from anything else, your religion teaches you that it's okay to do bad things, seriously bad things, as long as you ask god for forgiveness. Rape, kill, steal - that's fine; you've got a get-out-of-jail-free card. Doesn't matter about the victims of the crime; you're back in with god because you said 'pretty please with sugar on top.'
Are you familiar with the levels of religiosity in the US prison population? Perhaps you should check those out - they say a great deal about the relative moral values of theists vs. atheists.
As for the priests repeatedly raping children and being protected by the church hierarchy: if the god you speak of it truly kind and loving then he would not have let one child be molested. That it happened many, many times, with the blessing of the church, is enough reason to believe that if your god exists he is monster.
Was that before or after the Easter Bunny ate Santa Claus' Gingerbread Men, resulting in the Salem Easter Egg hunt?
I'm just dying to see that movie. :-D
Keith, I think you are entirely confused. You think there's such a thing as a "perfect" law, but it isn't clear what kind of standard there would be for that. You think that "better understanding" is possible, but of what? Moral "truths"?
Are you sure the bible claims what you say it claims? I think that's a contested claim, to say the least. Certainly Catholics don't believe that. You don't understand the beliefs you want to make fun of, and you don't understand your own beliefs.
You don't have a problem with religion, you have a problem with Freedom and what people choose to do with it. Individuals are free to exercise religion as they see fit, particularly when it doesn't impose anything on you. It is true that the Church does engage in public policy issues as an organization of individual citizens collected under the banner of shared belief, petitioning the government for certain laws, etc., which *might* impose on your life somehow. But rather than engaging in debate or protest against the public policy issues that may affect you, you instead steal property from the Church and desecrate it. While you could more reasonable object to the Church being involved in a public policy process, you instead target for ridicule and desecration the Eucharist which is stolen and are, in effect, assaulting the individually chosen beliefs of fellow humans for no other reason than to express your own hatred for their self-determination and for free expression. We could also assume that you are smart enough to know that this is not a way to open people eyes to the mistaken ways of their beliefs. I guess you lacked the sophistry and semi-intellectual capabilities of Dawkins. But you aren't smart enough to realize that this was a great way for you to get yourself killed by our less tolerant brothers, the Muslim Fundamentalists (see Pim Fortuyn) - but at least we Catholics will pray for you.
Hey, God just got killed.
Why hasn't society collapsed yet?
Unless God isn't REALLY A CRACKER?
Also, come on guys, push this to 2000.
I don't know what all the fuss is about. The cracker is God, OK, I buy that. As a loyal member of The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster I consume my lord's body on a weekly basis. I think the question we need to all ask ourselves is this : Marinara or Alfredo sauce?
This sad excuse for a professor is a good example of someone educated far beyond his intelligence. He to make up for his mediocrity by attempting to gain attention by shocking people.
Ah #1732 I guess homosexuality is sacred to you. Truth hurts eh?
Apparently not every post by Fr. J is from the real Fr. J. I am afraid I don't have time to go back over 1700 posts to see which ones are really mine.
Hitler was raised Catholic, renounced his faith, and embraced atheism. That makes him one of you. Read on:
All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:
National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)
10th October, 1941, midday:
Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)
14th October, 1941, midday:
The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)
19th October, 1941, night:
The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.
21st October, 1941, midday:
Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)
13th December, 1941, midnight:
Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)
14th December, 1941, midday:
Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)
9th April, 1942, dinner:
There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)
27th February, 1942, midday:
It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)
He sounds EXACTLY like you people.
Dude (Fr.J), I was one of those children, so I don't need any instruction from an idiot like you on how to correctly 'think of the children'. I am off to bed, because I have a real job to go to in the morning, where even a day full of mouse dissections and PCR will contribute more to humanity than you ever will (in your current state of delusion anyway).
As for your spiel on homosexuality. Real original. You're disgusting. Can't you see how your religion has bred hate into your thought process? Seriously, take a good objective read over your posts here. It should be very enlightening.
I won't be responding to any more of your posts here. Anything else you may have to say to me will be the same old crap anyways, so just look back at my previous posts for a fitting response.
I'm not much of a confrontational fellow, so I would never pull a stunt like this, but I've got to say that the responses from the reactionary quarter of Catholic America have been...illuminating. If he were alive today, I think Jerry Rubin would be impressed at your ability to "highlight the contradictions," PZ.
I looked it up. Catholics were required to abstain from meat on Fridays. They changed the rule in 1966. Then, finally, the asshole pope allowed me to eat meat on Friday.
I went to Catholic school from kindergarten thru 8th grade. Except for one year all my teachers were nuns. I know every Catholic belief, every Catholic ritual, every Catholic rule. I look back on it all now, and I have to say the Catholic religion is the most idiotic invention in history. Every single one of their beliefs is pure bullshit. The idea that one old man, who wears a dress and a funny hat, has the final word on what every Catholic must believe, is way beyond insane. There is nobody more gullible than the Catholics. They're all suckers. The priests and other Catholic leaders who make a living off the suckers are all assholes.
Reread Thomas, I didn't say anything about laws being perfect. As for where law should go knocking when it wants knowledge to base itself off of, I say that academic science and non-religious philosophy is a wonderful place to start.
It's interesting to see that Fr.J is the sort of person who believes that as soon as the imprimatur of "sacred" is removed, the appropriate response is to wallow in emotional crapulence.
Curiously, Father, I know quite a number of atheists who don't do that. Why is that, do you suppose? Also, why is it that I only ever hear "Without God, there are no morals" from supposedly good and pious folks?
#1704, it is all over the news (on internet news sites) - the news said he desecrated it and had a link that led to this blog.
I think you are missing the point (or being a hypocrite?) The professor WANTS this to be public -- he claimed to do this in defense of the UCF student who interrupted a Catholic Mass and took a Host. He is on some 'holy' crusade to show how Catholics are stupid, or something like that, and how anybody therefore has the right to interrupt their doings because they are stupid people worthy of being hated.
Why? I can only fathom from what he said and did, because he hates them. No other reason comes through. He despises their beliefs, and hence despises them, and so he offends them by attacking what they hold dear. And in a very public manner. He is publicly flaunting his hatred of Catholics. (Some of his students, if he has students, are most likely practicing Catholics and he no doubt has offended them greatly.)
Why he chose to take a stand on this is beyond me. Why anyone would reveal themselves and go public with so much hate, is beyond me.
"Look at me world, and look at how much I hate Catholics!!"
Sure Jesus tastes great, but why isn't he more filling?
For more uproarious amusement, see the way the holy Catholic Church's official apologists wrestled each other to a stalemate in a massive battle of mental masturbational skills:
Catholic Encyclopedia - The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist
It only lost some of its funny when they killed everyone who laughed.
WHAT!!! You desecrated a banana??? Damn you! You monster!
Fr. J - those were from those forged Hitler diaries. Nice try.
And PZ's minions rejoiced. *Yay!*
I see Fr. J is still being a fuckwit and a wackaloon. Homosexuality does not equal pedofilia, and to say so if bald faced lie. Get a grip on reality, and do some real research in the psychology journals. For a supposedly intelligent you come across a doddering senile fool.
My problem with the church and the pedophile priests is the cover-up. Any other group is appalled by such crimes and tries to punish the perpetrators. Not the catholic church, which makes it an immoral organization. Sir, you claim to belong to an immoral organization. Time for you to either work at making it more moral, or getting out of it. Be a man, and make a decision and live with consequences.
Actually, Fr.J, I believe Hitler would wholeheartedly agree with your views on homosexuality and its evils.
To Matt and all the other Catholic cowards with fatwa envy who wave imaginary evil muslims about while claiming Catholics are so much better:
Here's the current tally of messages in my email from outraged religious people.
Catholic hate mail: approximately 12,000.
Muslim hate mail: approximately, umm, precisely...0.
Guess which one worries me more?
You don't get to claim the moral high ground. My experience so far is that there is a subset of Catholicism that is truly vile and hateful, and will readily threaten evil acts against people who find their crackers foolish.
Lisa, all abuse is wrong. But to hate an entire class of people because of the actions of a few? If someone said all Muslims were terrorists would you accept that? I was once robbed by a black man, so should I hate all black males? It makes sense to blame the person who hurt you, but not to hate all of us as a group.
Once morality gets into arguing over what God wants -- instead of what leads to fairness and happiness here on earth -- then all bets are off. It is easier to persuade someone that they're wrong about a fact in the world than it is to persuade them that you know God, and they don't.
Sastra, have I ever mentioned that you're my idol? :-D
People who use the phrase "relative morality" when speaking of secular morality reveal a poor understanding of how humans determine what is right or wrong. In a humanistic system of morality, harming other people is never justified on the basis of "that's just his religion". If you want to know if something is wrong, just ask yourself how you would like it if someone did it to you.
So, in other words, you do think trying to put children's lives in danger is equal to my (or PZ's ) dissing of your religion? I'm very thankful that most of the human race disagrees with you.
I would like to see a few decent and sane Catholics come here and tear you evil whackjobs a new one. I have known Catholics who would not do such an evil thing as to place children in danger, so I know they exist. I suspect they are not here because the only ones who know or care about this issue are Donahooey and his cult. I can't wait until IP's are traced and we find out which one of you is the great hooey himself.
"Professor Myers is entitled to his own religious beliefs, but not his own facts. The belief in the Eucharist existed hundreds of years before 1215."
Who cares when they made this nonsense up. It isn't true--the little piece of bread is not Jesus. Really, it's not. I grew up (nominally) Catholic and the only thing that really scares me about this whole thing is that there are actually (alleged) adults who believe this nonsense. This is stuff that at I could see through at the age of 9. This whole thing is ridiculous. Magic god-damned wafers and flying leprechauns. Sigh. This is really why the human race is doomed.
Jesus is dead. It's been 2000 years. Get over it. This isn't healthy.
#1748
First off... # 1748? Will the saga of the cracker and the koran NEVER END?
Secondly, of course he desecrated a banana. Bananas are an atheist's worst nightmare, after all.
This is such an awesome post. I've loved all the drama this week. My favorite bits are the catholics who come in who so obviously DO NOT GET IT and just keep driving your point home again and again.
"Lisa, all abuse is wrong. But to hate an entire class of people because of the actions of a few?"
You've made your hatred for atheists pretty plain, and you certainly make no bones about talking about atheists as one homogeneous mass. What did you call them? "You people?" I used to hear that one down in Louisiana, but it wasn't directed at atheists.
I love how the religious nuts like to say "He's your Savior and Lord too whether you believe it or not!" while they simultaneously say we can't insult their religion. Hello? Irony anyone? Telling me your God is my God too is insulting to me. So take your fairy tale somewhere else.
Well I've missed quite a bit!!!
Kisses to you too Ed!!!!
Here! Have some hugs with those kisses!!!
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
This post isn't about hating people; this is about criticizing beliefs. We need to be able to express our opinions even if others disagree.
Matt Braynard wrote:
Matt, you're wrong. You might not be affected but that's not to say that others won't be. Numerous deconversion stories say that mocking, irreverence and the refusal to acknowledge a chosen belief system as 'special' is exactly what prompted people to free themselves from religion.
If you read everything from the start you'd realise that PZ was inspired to do what he did because some people in a church tried to force someone to adhere to their interpretation of a belief system.
Professor Myers committed a completely ignorant and closed-minded, hateful act. Does it really matter if he believes that this is the Body of Christ? It is complete and total arrogance that he insists that he, a zealous man to the point of irrational ideology, has seen clearly what 92% of humanity cannot comprehend.
I love Professor Myers and will never wish harm to come to him or his children. I am not even convinced that he should lose his job over this. If I could meet him and simply talk, that would be enough for me - no need to spew forth the kind of anger and hatred that Jesus Who Catholics believe the Eucharist is died against.
He offended my most deeply held beliefs, something I forgive him for. I do not believe his beef is with me, though. He did not simply offend me. If I am right, He desecrated the most sacred thing in the universe. What gives Myers the right to declare nothing sacred?
What Myers did in his own self-centered ignorance is between him and God, or at least his conscience. But he should acknowledge that many of his fellow humans are horrified that he can desecrate something seen as sacred by so many people.
-Matt, Harvard 2011
You just don't get what people have been saying over and over again, have you? The problem isn't the abuse (although that is a problem, no matter who does it). The problem is the coverup. That's not the actions of a few, that's actions of many.
This is the real Fr.J. In fact, I like to make stuff up about Hilter, so you can really just skip that part, but everything else I've said is true. Did I mention I was abused as an adult? I'll be right there daddy..did I just write to? Hmm. Anyway, you atheists are all wrong because I have a book that says so. It was writena a long time ago by Noah and Moses and Jesus and Abraham and Earl and Daryl and his other brother Daryl and a few other really neat people. In my church we spike the wine with Viagra for a fun sunday afternoon picnic. The premium tither ladies really enjoy the show I tell you. Anyway, back to my point. Jesus is in the cracker and it really, really true. There was a study in Liberia last year by a doctor who said it was true and even Fox news reported it so it must be true. Besides, if you don't believe it my loving God will burn you forever. I'm told that's a very long time. Gotta run, Project runway is on.
Blessed be the God of love and may he send all of you to the firey pit of Hell.
Love,
Fr.J
#1751 will you admit that priesthood also does not equal pedophilia? Will everyone else here agree to that?
Rob, no they are from his Table Talk.
PZ, how nice of you to drop by. Have you read the hate mail aimed at me on your blog? I am catching up to you fast. No one can hate like an atheist. I doubt you are worried one bit. You will sleep soundly.
Good night. Pax
Fr. J,
All of your intense pondering, ranting and reaching for signs of weakness and moral depravity of your rational enemies doesn't give your argument any more weight. Your doctrine is not true. God is imaginary. It is the product of poorly evolved men who sought power in life as all humans do. There is no perfect way to live.
I think you should actually read PZ's post and try not to hate him while you do it. Your insecurity and hatred has put you in a bubble of your own "self-satisfied ignorance". I understand that forcing yourself to believe has probably been your life's work. You are, presumably, in the business of keeping yourself gratified by what you tell yourself must be true. What if it doesn't have to be true? Is it not possible that your wrong?
It is possible that I'm wrong. I'll believe your doctrine for ANY reason; so long as I actually believe it. However, I'm not going to force myself to believe it. Is that what I must do? In order to believe as you do must I force it upon myself by surrendering even my faculties of reason. How would I then defend my beliefs, even to myself?
I'm sure you believe. But your beliefs are indefensible.
Funkstronaut #1692
diggin' the style. rawk on!
oh and i found the bong god was looking for earlier. turned out i was holding it. my bad.
Number 1700:
"And he was carried in his own hands. But, brethren, how is it possible for a man to do this? Who can understand it? Who is it that is carried in his own hands? A man can be carried in the hands of another; but no one can be carried in his own hands. How this should be understood literally of David, we cannot discover; but we can discover how it was meant of Christ. For Christ was carried in His own hands, when, referring to His own Body, He said: `This is My Body.' For He carried that Body in His hands."
I thought that was about masturbation.
Hey faithers... there is no such thing as divine crackers, divine truths, heaven, hell, invisible forms of consciousness including ghosts, souls thetans, incubi, demons, hobgoblins, angels, or aliens from another dimension. You guys are all on the same ground when you claim to know something about these mystical immeasurable truths... the same ground as those preaching the myths of yesteryear. When something is real, the evidence accumulates. The evidence that is accumulating regarding faith is that humans are very vulnerable to magical thinking and will die and kill for crazy things because somebody made them believe it was a magical message from a divine source.
Yes, science doesn't know everything. But faith has never revealed anything measurably true or useful. Science has an error correcting mechanism-- faith does not.
If crackers had god in them, then we should be able to test it and the evidence should accumulate... you know, like it's done for DNA. Religion shouldn't be so afraid of scrutiny--if it were true, that is... and had nothing to hide.
Remember, Airplanes fly whether you believe in them or not. And the internet exists and evolves without a planner. Medicine advances as does technology and our understanding of the universe. These things are brought to you by science. What in the hell has religion given us except various groups of people all certain that they are saved and more moral than everyone else because of what they BELIEVE. Sadly, they all believe different things.
You are on a site for rational thinking.... try showing some of that respect you demand for your idiocy-- or go to a place where you can slap each other on the back while telling yourself how moral and great you are while spinning prejudice against those who tell the truth-- the real one-- not the magical divine one that you have to "believe in" for it to be true.
Ugh... I know all theists are not as vapid and hateful as the ones posting here... but damn I'm glad I never inflicted the idiocy on my kid as it was inflicted up me. And I am proud of PZ for helping to skewer the idiocy of it all.
John Lewandowski @1614. I'm afraid you've just told a lie. Please prove that you're not lying by specifically citing all these atheists who tell you that " they think it is impossible for human beings to avoid having sex with multiple partners. In other words, they disbelieve in free will."
You will be unable to support your irrational claim.
Bearing false witness carries with it the penalty of eternal damnation, I'm afraid.
thanks @Rob, #1749
I was worried that having misplaced the definitive link on those quotes that I'd never find it again. Looks like googling for the text doesn't help since infidels.org doesn't know better (you'd think they would.)
I better Fr J thinks that Abraham Lincoln was a Christian. Lesson is that the theist liars are always willing to make up false history after the fact. Witness the fake deathbed confession of Darwin to being a theist, or the apocryphal story of Spinoza and the mud puddle. Liars will do as liars will lie.
Thomas,
I'm not sure why you would ask me to "defend" a moral belief. Moral beliefs are preferences. They're subjective. They can only be argued about with someone who shares (some of) the same moral premises. For example, if we both hold the belief that self-aware life has value, and a few other common moral premises, it's fairly easy to reach the conclusion that PZ shouldn't be murdered. If you don't share this moral premise with me, there's no debate to be had, and I can do nothing except take action against you.
It's not that moral premises are unfairly protected from criticism, it's that "criticizing moral premises" is a meaningless phrase, exactly like "criticizing one's taste in ice cream".
That said, moral beliefs which aren't premises can be criticized on objective ground in two cases.
First, if two moral beliefs held by the same individual contradict each other. For example, some people claim to believe that people should be free to do everything that doesn't harm or impinge on the freedom of other people; but they also believe that people shouldn't be free to take drugs, or to kill themselves, or other such things. A logical contradiction is an objective fact, and can be attacked as such.
Second, if a moral belief is based on a belief about reality that is false. For example, Muslims believe that the creator of the universe wants them to kill apostates, therefore they should kill apostates. A claim about reality is an objective claim, and can be attacked as such.
And that is what's different between purely subjective beliefs and religious beliefs. Religions are composed of faith-based (and therefore, almost certainly false) beliefs about reality, and of moral beliefs based on these beliefs about reality. Therefore all religious beliefs can be criticized.
Thomas, the difference is (and we've all raised this sentiment over and over and over and over again), that if someone interfered my ability to have fun on say a Friday evening I would not write to their boss to demand that they lose their job, threaten their life or safety of their family, or condemn that person to burn in a fire dungeon for all eternity.
This would really never happen though because, as a grad student I have no time for fun. So your entire argument to me falls flat. I find it creepy how you thought that you even knew something about me personally in the first place.
Anyways, once again, goodnight.
Get your head on straight, no one here said they hate all catholics, no one here abused you or any other catholic for being catholic. We ridicule you because we don't respect you, as an individual. And that is because respect has to be earned, and you have earned nothing but contempt from us.
#1749 Posted by: Rob | July 24, 2008 11:34 PM
I was just going to ask Fr. J if he had the correct Hitler Diary, because there was a fake (or possibly several), but you've taken care of that - thanks, Rob.
JBS
And God smiled. ;^)
PZ, you have invoked all the trickster gods today -- bravo.
Just in case anyone missed it on another thread, Fr. J came out in favor of putting the student who didn't want to eat the cracker in jail. He said he himself would try to do that if he ever caught anyone not eating his magic cracker. He would demand that the police put the person in jail. Of course any policeman would laugh at the shithead Fr. J if he tried that.
I'm sure everyone here agrees that the priest Fr. J is an asshole, but I thought I would share this information anyway.
Catholic hate mail: approximately 12,000.
Muslim hate mail: approximately, umm, precisely...0.
That doesn't surprise me. Muslims in America keep a low profile. The only terrorists living in America are Catholics.
I agree with #1682 and perhaps it should start with MORE public cracker destruction. PZ shouldn't have to bear the brunt of the nutjob fury. If youtube suddently explodes with cracker desecrations the Catholic Justice League will be forced to 1) ignore 2) recant or 3) prosecute every "hate crime".
If they want this to be fought in a public forum with real consequences then so be it. We should take the fight to them.
I did not claim that the rite of communion did not exist before 1215. I said the 4th Lateran Council codified the doctrine that only an ordained priest could carry out the ritual.
Fr. J, I've found you to be quite good at hating. And at being very stupid. Your whining is inappropriate.
PZ just won the month of July.
Fr. J - you mean those talks that have no independent verification and have never had similar ideas expressed in any other communication, public or private? Those talks?
The next six months will tell us whether the cracker is just a cracker.
Meh. I'm going back to the octopus thread.
Whoa... This comment thread must be an epic thread if it's got Woot posting.
Of course, this now means that I can nominate Woot for a Molly. Freakin' awesome!
Sandi you stupid, ignorant fuckwit. Black people come by their blackness naturally. PZ has no interest in making fun of people for characteristics over which they have no control. Demented assholes who have a choice over whether or not to believe a bunch of superstitious bullshit deserve whatever ridicule they get for believing in superstitious bullshit.
Obviously you are incapable of making such a distinction, and you deserve to be mocked for your monumental demented fuckwittery.
I firmly believe in your right to believe in whatever you want, and to proclaim it as loudly as you like, just as I have the right to tell you that your beliefs are demented, stupid, bullshitty superstition.
Your belief that calling black people "niggers." is the same as calling your beliefs moronic is well... as stupid as your belief that a cracker IS the body of a dead guy.
So, you've made your case. It has been found wanting, repeating it doesn't make it any better. You are a dumbfuck. It is time for you to shut up now. You stupid fuck.
But you're not, it's just a cracker. So you can understand now why we're all laughing at you.
Phentari at #1760: thanks for responding so I don't have to. I totally concur.
Matt said:
How charitable of you.
recipe #138: Our Lord and Sushi
Top cracker with a small portion of aerosol cheeze wiz. Slice pimento olive in two and place one half on top of the cheese layer. Drape a thin anchovie over the top. Add one drop of tobasco to simulate the pain and suffering of His sacrifice and to give the hors d'oevre a spicy kick. Some crackers can be darkened with a drop of wine (i.e. human blood) to give the appearance of white meat and dark meat. Goes well with lamb and fish. Instantly cures and blindness, lameness and leprocy. Does not cure sciatica, tendonitis or excema. God knows why...
For the real Fr. J (aka Disingenuous Turd):
Why do you keep confusing race/ethnicity with beliefs/ideology? You do realise they are different, don't you? For someone who claims to have such a high IQ and hold many degrees, you seem a bit thick if you can't understand that one is a choice and the other isn't. That's kind of important when you're talking bigotry.
Or do you remember the process where you got to choose to be a straight, white male (because, obviously, you would'nt have chosen to be gay, female or black/jewish - since you've displayed your loathing of those kind of people over and over again) before you were born?
Rarely have I seen a more delusional and hypocritical twit than "Fr." J.
Hitler, you paralyzed prat, was never excommunicated. Please tell me why that is. There was only one Nazi leader who was because and that's because he married a protestant woman. A case of the enmey of my enemy, eh? The truth is the Nazis were coddled by the church, and don't try to deny it.
And in recent history, the entire world saw the church protect pedophiles so they could ply their craft over and over again. We won't even touch the crusades, the inquisition, the orgies popes had and the millions that were tortured and executed.
We (I'll take the liberty to speak for all the nice folks here on Pharyngula) deal with evidence here. We don't accept the ramblings of an ancient book as anything other than a second-rate story told by people who did not understand the universe around them and who wanted a base for controlling the population.
So just go away. You are a complete loony tune and do not belong in a discussion with rational people. Go practice your medieval crafts on the sheep that listen. You are hopeless.
Fr.J @ 1714
So homosexuals are the real problem? It has nothing to do with someone being in a position of authority sworn to celibacy and with access to children and cloaked in the internal secrecy of the church.
When I was a teenager a young seminary student was assigned to my parish for a summer. He was gay. Very very gay. Flamboyantly gay. He was also one of the most cheerful and positive people I ever met despite the fact for years equal amounts of guilt and pity had been heaped on him by his family and parish priest for him being gay. He had been advised to enter the seminary and devote his life to god as atonement for being attracted to men. Evenn being as young as I was I knew it was wrong that he couldn't live the life he wanted without being forced from the church he loved. That was one of the many reasons I left the church.
As a side note he gave me a copy of The Life of Pope John Paul II published by Marvel Comics. Before that I had no idea that comics could be used to tell a story more complex than an adolescent power fetish involving a buttkicking directed towards criminals. So not only did meeting him help me leave the church it also started a lifelong interest in comics. Viva la Spider Jerusalem!
Awesome! Good job, PZ!
sorry for my typos guys. I got excited :-)
... reminds me of something williams s. burroughs once said:
Bybelknap, hey! Long time no see? It's hard to tell with the insane number of posts lately.
Have you been busy or just avoiding the cracker insanity?
I've been trying to spend less time on here myself but it's just too hard. It's more like crack than crackers...
Emmet Caulfield @ # 1033: Thanks for the suggestions.
The best such book I've found in several years of casual digging is Michael Phayer's The Catholic Church and the Holocaust, 1930 to 1965 - highly recommended, though not for those with high blood pressure problems.
Susan Zuccoti's Under His Very Windows: The Vatican and the Holocaust in Italy also fills in a number of important details (including how low-level Catholics risked their lives trying to stop what their Holy Father unhesitatingly condoned).
Would it be gratuitous to point out that the current occupant of the Throne of St. Peter is the only pontiff known to have fired upon British and American troops? Oh well: that's how the cracker crumbles.
Thomas says: [I]"Second, if a moral belief is based on a belief about reality that is false. For example, Muslims believe that the creator of the universe wants them to kill apostates, therefore they should kill apostates. A claim about reality is an objective claim, and can be attacked as such." [/I]
First, Thomas, you don't know what the "creator" of the universe is telling Muslims.... he's invisible and undetectable and indistinguishable from a voice in the head-- right?
And by your own reasoning above, the claim that consecrated crackers have Jesus in them or are different than regular crackers can be attacked because it clearly conflicts with objective reality.
Yes, we know morals are subjective... everyone thinks they know what god wants... unfortunately they don't agree with each other. That's why we live in a secular world--so your wacky beliefs aren't inflicted on me. I don't need to believe in magic crackers and I don't need to believe that god wants me to die for him... and I don't need to believe that psychiatrists are evil and that my problems are due to body thetans.... I don't need to "respect" or defer to any of it. It's all wackadoodle to me. Keep it in the closet please.
Fr. J, those quotes are from 'Table Talk', by the anti-Catholic Bormann. There were no recordings whatsoever of these conversations except for what Bormann wrote on hearsay, edited and most importantly, never provided any originals. Hitler's alleged thoughts in TT are unique compared to all of his recorded speeches and writings. They contradict every thing Hitler ever said on any other occasion. They never denounce Jesus or his personal Christianity; in fact Hitler allegedly speaks admiringly of Jesus in TT.
So, do you choose to believe a very questionable source of uncorroborated and contradictory hearsay, or do you believe Hitler's evidential own words? Both can't be true.
Fr. J, there must be someone who needs excommunicating. Go! Go! Go!
fantastic! apparently, mr. donahue is not familiar with the finer points of law -- anything that would offend him gets a cry of "discrimination!"
but, because pz did not single out catholics, applying his "desecration" with a broad brush stroke to all things unsacred, there is no way a discrimination charge will stick.
genius!
it's about time these thin-skinned christians learned to live with offense like the rest of us,,, that's life.
cheers
Wowbagger,
As the "real Fr.J", I am offended by not being offended (or properly addressed) by your post. It is me you should be addressing, not some "Disingenuous Turd" who doesn't know a cracker from his ass. The "other" Fr.J is a fake. Anyway, my IQ is in the high 60's, it seems to follow my age, but in reverse...
fantastic! apparently, mr. donahue is not familiar with the finer points of law -- anything that would offend him gets a cry of "discrimination!"
but, because pz did not single out catholics, applying his "desecration" with a broad brush stroke to all things unsacred, there is no way a discrimination charge will stick.
genius!
it's about time these thin-skinned christians learned to live with offense like the rest of us,,, that's life.
cheers
#1715, i think it was the professor who wanted this to be a public spectacle. He did it with the intent to offend. Why? Because some kid disturbed a Catholic ritual - a Mass - and took a Host to piss off the Catholics at that Mass. So the professor went on a 'holy' crusade to also desecrate a Host to show his support of the offending student who caused a scene at the Mass.
This I believe is his stated motive and he did it on purpose and wants it public -- he is purposely poking Catholics in the eye, deliberately provoking them, by purposely showing his hate for them.
He could have just left them alone and minded his own business, but no, he felt this action had to be taken against those hated, idiotic Catholics.
It is he who instigated this - it is he who showed hate and wanted to show hate of Catholics on a world stage.
Ask him why he did it, please, if you are unclear.
BRAVO!
That's not science, dumbass. That's you being mocked and pilloried because you've repeated every moronic talking point like it's a fact and have refused to acknowledge your ineptitude.
There are no Hindu Gods, we are both atheists to the Hindu Religion.
We are both atheists to the Muslim religion.
We are both atheists to Chinese Ancestor Worship.
We are both atheists to Mormonism.
We are both atheists to a great many religions current and extinct.
The only difference is that you are Atheist -1 where I am Atheist 0. You just have to hold onto one religion, in which you're heavily indoctrinated like any cultist, that's just as phony as the rest. The archaeological record shows your religion to be nothing but a heavily cobbled-up version of Judaism originating from the Essenic Jews.
But you'll never go there because you're afraid. You're a gutless coward who can't face his death and non-existence.
And because of that, you end up in a bizarre nihilistic religion that makes you and its fellow practitioners miserable. Even as you kid yourself that you're happy.
Face it, dude, Paul was the L. Ron Hubbard of his day. Christianity the Scientology. And you've got nothing.
Live your damn life. It's the only one you'll get.
I have a message for you from heaven, "You Will See HELL when you go there" - Padre Pio. I really pity you for what you have done. I hope you are in the Philippines because I ASSURE YOU it will be a living hell for you. During the concert of the BEATLES here, almost everyone attended the said concert and after the concert, they could not believe the great crowd before them so one of them shouted "We are even more famous than Jesus Christ!" Everyone started throwing things at them. Anything that the people could pick up. If you were here you will regret it. Please repent! I KNOW WHY YOU DID THAT BECAUSE NO ONE LOVES YOU. NO ONE CARES FOR YOU AND EVERYONE IGNORES YOU YOU DID GET THE ATTENTION BUT THE PEOPLE HATED YOU MORE. AND THAT INCLUDES ALL OF YOU AGREEING TO WHAT HE DID.
"ADOREMUS IN AETERNUM SANCTISSIMUM SACRAMENTUM!"
Hail o Adorable Face of Jesus present in the most Blessed Sacrament more resplendent than the sun. Hail thou noble seal of the divinity thou mirror of divine perfections with all the powers of my soul I turn to thee of Jesus and humble pray thee to imprint upon our hearts all the Features of thy divine countenance"
email me and react anonymous_anon2001@yahoo.com
PZ,
After reading all this crud from these delusional cretins throughout the day, I'm forced to admit I was wrong in #793. Clearly you have had much more first-hand exposure than I have to these idiots. When I'm wrong I'm the first to admit it.
Perhaps this is one hornets nest that needed to be whacked :-)
Well done Professor Myers!!
bob smith:
Since your attempt to guess PZ's mind here was such a spectacular fail, why not go read his post and the previous ones now where he explains very clearly why?
John,
"Professor Myers is entitled to his own religious beliefs, but not his own facts. The belief in the Eucharist existed hundreds of years before 1215:..."
Strawman! PZ did not say the belief didn't exist prior to that date, he said it was codified in 1215, and he is correct. Either you have a problem with basic reading comprehension, or you are deliberately obfuscating the issue in order to falsely make PZ appear ignorant.
Dear PZ
I have been watching (read lurking) all of this unfold, and have felt it a great roller coaster of emotions.
I have read things I would NEVER expect to come out of Christians mouths. Accordingly, some of the atheist tribe haven't exactly been ambassadors of their beliefs as well.
There have been times where I have been cheering for you and times where I have been confused by your actions. Overwhelmingly there have been the times where I have feared for you and your family's safety.
It has been a very thought-provoking time, especially when the darker side of the power of the internet is exposed...
I am glad that the desecration was "tasteful" and that you included the God Delusion as well a point hugely worth making, and I am so glad you did. Mr Dawkins would heartily approve no doubt.
Take care of yourself and your family PZ, hopefully things will settle down somewhat, and we can look forward to many more postings about "sciency", squidey, eight appendaged thingies .
Thank you for forcing a lot of your 'lurkers' way out of the comfort zone. That's why I love your blog.
I remain your gentle reader!
Looks like the shitstorm over the last two weeks was just warm-up. Kudos, Professor Myers. I won't pray for you, but I will hope you can weather what's coming.
You... you SHOVED A RUSTY NAIL THROUGH A CRACKER?!
Man, the Georgia State Patrol is gonna BURN YER ASS!
(Really, that was awesome, PZ. Simply awesome!)
I for one am horrified that the entirety of the Philippines hates PZ, me, my fellow posters here, and the Beatles. So are crazed religious zealots still crucifying themselves in the philippines during easter week? Or has a wave of sanity washed over the country?
Christians are domesticated terrorists. I wouldn't be worried if I was you. They got tamed after Britain broke up with the Pope. Before that they were hardcore, now they're all cuddly.
Matthew
5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Note those are the words of the J-man himself.
PZ, this post is wonderful. The eloquence of the prelude you wrote before the "big" reveal was a joy to read, and including "The God Delusion" was a nice touch. I linked your post on my blog.
You have support all over the net! Keep on truckin', PZ!
Mark Macaspac (or is it Anon?), PZ is not in the Philippines, so you and your Jesus can go suck on a lemon. Last I heard, people in the Philippines use catholicism to forget about the corrupt government. You religion is little more than opium.
BEST.
POST.
EVER.
EVER.
EVER.
SUPERB.
Bob Smith - get your facts straight.
At a church service, Webster Cook (a Catholic, btw) tried to take the host with him rather than consume it. He did not do it to 'make a scene' or 'piss of catholics'; he was going to show to a friend who was curious.
Was that wrong? Yes, but only by the standards of the church. If it had stayed within the church none of this would have happened. They could have spoken to him about it and dealt with it themselves.
But they didn't. The catholics tried to make a big deal out of it; the 'faithful' responded by making threats of violence, legal action and expulsion.
PZ heard about it and responded.
Feel free to criticise what PZ did, but make sure you have the whole story first.
And the hits keep coming...
"During the concert of the BEATLES here, almost everyone attended the said concert and after the concert, they could not believe the great crowd before them so one of them shouted "We are even more famous than Jesus Christ!" Everyone started throwing things at them."
I'm sorry, but if you have enough of a hate boner for the friggin' BEATLES that you fabricate a story like that, then you're just a failure as a human being. Give me John, Paul, George, and Ringo over Jesus, Moses, and Mohammed any day of the week.
Bob Smith @ 1550:
Sure. All that holds if you maintain a very simplistic view of both atheism and objectivity. There are much more nuanced understandings of both that are compatible with one another. The kind of "relativity" I suggest is not one that threatens the notion of an objective atheist evaluative scheme. Please see Amartya Sen's paper, "Positional Objectivity", for more. There are, of course, some problems with his arguments but it will give you a good starting place for understanding a more nuanced conception of objectivity that can handle your challenges without invoking the supernatural.
As he says, Dr. Myers did not assert that the rite of communion began in 1215. His second paragraph does seem to imply, though, that the actual presence of Christ in the sacrament was invented at that time in order to provide something with which to stir up mobs against Jews. That is false. The real presence is taught in the New Testament, or, if one finds the New Testament ambiguous, it's also taught by Ignatius of Antioch in the early second century, long before the Catholic Church had any temporal power (Christians, including Ignatius himself were being put to death for their beliefs, so those beliefs would hardly be advantageous in a worldly sense).
Furthermore, would it make any sense for the Church to invent something for the purpose of inflaming mobs against the Jews and then forbid Christians from mistreating them? That is what the Church did. Christians, on pain of excommunication, were forbidden to forcibly convert Jews, 'seize, imprison, wound, torture, mutilate, kill or inflict violence on them', or 'disturb them in any way during the celebration of their festivals'. The pope who issued the statement was also adamant that the lies about Jews killing children and other such nonsense cease immediately, so much so that he decreed that a Christian witness should not even be accepted against a Jew.
By now, I would hope that anyone who doubts the truth of the above would be demanding evidence, a thing I've seen precious little of on this thread so far. Anyone who's interested will have to copy and paste though, because I don't know how to do links.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Greg10/g10jprot.htm
I don't know how the atheists who disagree with PZ can read all these religious posts and not think that these people need a serious slap in the intellectual face.
@Kel, #1820
Not to interpret your history, but isn't the whole turn the other cheek about code duello. As in, back then there would be a cheek smacking to call someone out to a duel, and for your cult, the response would be to ignore the challenge? Or am I wrong here and the conventional interpretation of that passage as a generality the correct one?
Fr. J appears to be caught in some type of time warp. Based on his comments, I would guess late fifties to early sixties. Anything that happened after that, including his last post and responses to it, just doesn't seem to register.
Sandi has a similar problem. She just can't seem to update her ideas with reality. Any atheist can be moral, and most I know start with the Golden Rule. This is backed up by game theory, so there is a semi-scientific basis for using it. This allows real limits to be drawn on politeness and true criminal behavior. Using the Golden Rule, religion just becomes one philosophy amongst many with no special powers. Asking me to respect your cracker like you do is asking for special powers. If you applied this to the orthodox jew down the street, you would be required to keep a kosher household as otherwise it might offend them.
My apologies for my earlier spelling and grammar errors. Time for bed.
It will be a glorious day when the theists are hiding in the closet fearing mockery--and rationalists are free to speak their mind without fear of the irrational who threaten to bash in brains because someone doesn't respect their holy wafer.
Thanks for moving us one step closer to that day, PZ.
I consider the bluster to be dying squeals of the "faith in faith" paradigm.
So what if Catholics believe it is Jesus?
It ISN'T Jesus. Claiming that it is offends the former Christian in me - they are worshipping a friggin' piece of *bread* and making life miserable for some guy just because he didn't worship it the way he was supposed to. I can understand someone worshipping Jesus; I think it's wrong to worship a person, but at least I can respect that. A wafer is nothing to kill or die for.
IngoB wrote @ #1541:
"What he [Professor Myers] claims to have done is - insofar as it is a highly publicized act - a gratuitous disturbance of the social order and of the emotional peace of a good many people..."
Both you and your 'social order' are welcome to go shaft yourselves. (Patricia, do you still have that pineapple?)
You sound just like every other petty, theocratic despot who has ever sought to subjugate his fellow citizens under his own iron fist.
Read this verse from the Koran, and see if you can spot the difference between it, and what you claim to believe about your own religion.
I offer it to you in three different translations, so that I can't be accused of bias.
Koran: The Dinner Table. 5:33
-Y: "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter"
-P: "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom"
-S: "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"
'Social order' was very important to Mohammed, wasn't it?
'Social order' was also very important to the Catholic church, wasn't it?
Inquisition anyone?
The Overton window definitely moved with this post! Doing the unthinkable and criticizing the Eucharist has clearly made a number of people uncomfortable - major cognitive dissonance. The fact that we can openly discuss and critically think about the effects of irrational attachment to symbols here is very positive. Thanks, PZ.
I bet Mr. Donohue pictures his own face gracing the cracker you nailed, PZ.
"Weird. Is this TG also a 911 truther?
There's nothing remarkable about getting a communion wafer and tossing it in the trash." - PZ Myers
There is nothing remarkable about making an insufficiently documented claim and expecting others to believe it based on the claimer's presumed authority. It happens all the time in non-science circles. You have presented no concrete, objective evidence that you did what you said you did. That's how hoaxes and magic acts work.
At any rate, you do seem to be in something of a pickle. For, if you were to produce concrete evidence that you did pierce a consecrated host with a rusty nail and throw it in the trash, eventually you probably will be fired. Wouldn't count on the Catholic League giving up or U Minn regents and admin countenancing any suggestion that they approve of your actions. You basically have left them no choice.
On the other hand, if you happen to produce evidence that you did not do what you claimed and it was all a fraud, then your credibility as a servant of truth, which every good scientist is, will be destroyed by your own hand. That has serious, far-reaching professional consequences as well.
It seems to me that in either scenario, what you said you did to merely "a cracker" you, in fact, have done to yourself.
A helluva a price to pay for a stupid stunt, but that's exactly how it works with these kinds of things in the grown up world. Or didn't you know?
*to the background sounds of "All Along the Watchtower"*
Whew, this has been a wild ride. Apparently the Catholics have headed for bed whereas the godless are still about. Me, I'm done in too. (Articulett, if you're still up, will you join me? I especially loved post 1680.) By the time I hit the post button, will God grant me #2000?
#1831, you are not living by the Golden Rule when you do something that shows so much hate. The Golden Rule is based on love of neighbor, not hate of neighbor. What this guy did is in no way an application of the Golden Rule. It is nothing but hate being purposely put on display.
TG: Do you expect to get a video feed of everything that happened to the cracker from Sunday mass to Wednesday trash? With no breaks or edits? It's not going to happen. So you're just wanking.
To be clear, your response to the Litany of examples of hatred you claim on behalf of Catholicism is to...
Ridicule, disparage, insult, and in the end take the most sacred element of someone else's faith and make a complete mockery of it and publicly desecrate it?
If this is somehow a claim of reason and moral high ground, you have failed miserably, whether your reader and audience is Catholic or atheist, if the reader is being intellectually honest.
All I see is an attention-seeking, cold-hearted, reactionary who is to be pitied. And, yes, despite the fact that I expect you to laugh at the suggestion, I will, in fact, pray for you.
My goodness, goodness gracious....
I have been assured by Christians of every sort, every which way, coming and going, rightsideup and upsidedown, that nobody REALLY believes the Eucharist to be the ACTUAL body of Christ. Everybody tells me that no matter what the catechism says, Catholics aren't stupid or superstitious enough to believe any such thing.
I will bookmark this discussion...next time someone tells me that, he can come here and argue with the Trolls In Christ about the proper doctrine...
Barry
Eucharist + Koran + God Delusion + coffee + banana = CRAZY DELICIOUS!
Fake Fr. J,
It's obvious you didn't read my post about Atheists not having an Atheist club and how I, (or any Atheist), is no more linked to any other Atheists as I, (or any green eyed person), is linked to any other green eyed person. This included despots from days long gone.
I have the feeling you aren't reading anything other than you're own drivel.
It doesn't matter whether Hitler was an Atheist. Let's pretend he was. So what? Since Atheists are all individuals with no code of Atheist Ethics, no club, no philosophy, what the fucking hell would Hitler have to do with me or any other Atheist?
Nothing what-so-ever.
The church on the other hand, is an entity you have agreed to follow and you abide by it's laws, rules, and customs. Which means when they do evil things, you are partially responsible.
If I were to join a cult of green-eyed, brown-headed *whatevers* and they had a policy of abusing and killing people, I would be responsible for my participation and support of those horrors.
Will you ever be able to grasp this? it is so incredibly simple but you stubbornly refuse to think rationally.
You scare me, seriously. Luckily I am a pro-gun advocate, so I would not panic if you showed up on my doorstep.
Cunt! You don't deserve to exist if you can't even grant an internetz request! Impotent tosser.
A hundred years from now some biologist will have a blog just like this one, with a Random Quote just like PZ has. For sure this will be one of the famous random quotes:
Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything. God is not great, Jesus is not your lord, you are not disciples of any charismatic prophet. You are all human beings who must make your way through your life by thinking and learning, and you have the job of advancing humanity's knowledge by winnowing out the errors of past generations and finding deeper understanding of reality. You will not find wisdom in rituals and sacraments and dogma, which build only self-satisfied ignorance, but you can find truth by looking at your world with fresh eyes and a questioning mind. -- PZ Myers July 24, 2008
Poor, delusional TG.
(You might want to look up "tenure", btw.)
Elijah, #1828, wrote:
No, Elijah, I'm sure no-one's ever found the New Testament ambiguous. Otherwise there'd be just one church and not some ridiculous number of christian sects with their own interpretations.
Why do I keep hearing the number 38 000?
Oh, and I've prepared a kilt, bagpipe, sporran, and haggis for you if you're the sort who might choose to climb Ben Nevis at Hogmanay....
That could very well be correct, but I feel the previous line about the "eye for an eye" puts it into perspective, and it seems like not reacting to provocation sounds the best interpretation. It says similar in Luke as well
"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also." (6:27-29)
Silent prayer seems to be the answer to What Would Jesus Do? Dropping down to a game of revenge is pretty much the antithesis of the Jesus message.
Though I'm just a heathen so what would I know? :P
bob smith,
"Why? Because some kid disturbed a Catholic ritual - a Mass - and took a Host to piss off the Catholics at that Mass. So the professor went on a 'holy' crusade to also desecrate a Host to show his support of the offending student who caused a scene at the Mass."
You have been here for a while, and all accounts of what happened at that church are freely available. In assuming you have read those accounts, I am calling you a liar now.
The Catholic student who didn't do what they expected him to do in not immediately consuming the wafer was physically assaulted and threatened, then decided to take the wafer with him, because the attacks on his person pissed him off, not the other way around as you deceptively try to assert. Then he was further threatened, and the people whose sheep you are tried and are still trying to get him expelled from his university. The student didn't cause a scene, he merely didn't strictly follow the ritual. He was attacked before anyone even attempted to explain why his behavior was wrong.
So tell us, where exactly did Jesus tell people that lying was ok? If he didn't, where did you get that idea from? If this thread is any indication, it seems to be common Catholic practice.
Digg digg digg! (as if this needs more publicity... oh wait, it does!)
http://digg.com/educational/Atheist_Professor_Makes_Good_on_Promise_to_…
melior @ # 1747, quoting the Catholic Encyclopedia: According to the best founded opinions not only the substance of Christ's Body, but by His own wise arrangement, its corporeal quantity, i.e. its full size, with its complete organization of integral members and limbs, is present within the diminutive limits of the Host and in each portion thereof.
Ah, now I get it! Jesus is Ray Palmer, who becomes the size- and weight-changing superhero The Atom in DC Comics!
Oh, how much longer until the Justice League movie comes out?
Bravo Mr.Myers!
Though Nabisco might be after you next.....
This thread isn't closed yet?
What a dick.
If people want to believe their crackers are divine, and their belief isn't harming anybody, then who gives a fuck?
(Oh yeah, bigoted PZ and his band of irrational, uncritical, fascist, atheistic thought-police do.)
"TG: Do you expect to get a video feed of everything that happened to the cracker from Sunday mass to Wednesday trash? With no breaks or edits? It's not going to happen. So you're just wanking."
As I wrote above, it doesn't matter much now. PZ sealed his fate when he posted his picture today.
But, a well-documented chain-of-custody might be something in the way of evidence. The protocol for that is well established among real scientists, who by the way never link to a YouTube video to say "I got my materials here." LMAO.
Don't start a new Digg. There's already one with 36 Diggs. Vote on that one. If we can get it up to 150 we can probably make the front page.
http://digg.com/general_sciences/Pharyngula_The_Great_Desecration
PZ FTW!
"Poor, delusional TG.
(You might want to look up "tenure", btw.)"
You might want to look up Dismissal for Cause".
Luke 23:34
TG: Logician wannabe :-)
You're not "LMAO". I am.
Thank you Professor Myers for exposing the hypocrites for what they are. How anyone can believe the bullshit these religious bigots spew is beyond belief...unfortunately they do believe it. And unfortunately they continue to spread their blight on humanity.
It IS just a cracker. Not even a very tasty one either. As an ex-catholic I can tell you the wine is often better. No wonder so many priests are alcoholics! Then they get drunk and molest kids. Nice religion chaps! The leader of their church wears dresses and calls himself Father. Ya gotta wonder! There are so many inconsistencies it's hard to know where to start.
Keep it up Professor!
From Wikipedia -
"In psychology, cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling or stress caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a fundamental cognitive drive to reduce this dissonance by modifying an existing belief, or rejecting one of the contradictory ideas."
"Often one of the ideas is a fundamental element of ego, like "I am a good person" or "I made the right decision." This can result in rationalization when a person is presented with evidence of a bad choice, or in other cases. Prevention of cognitive dissonance may also contribute to confirmation bias or denial of discomforting evidence. If not corrected, this can lead to further bad choices for the sake of consistency, rather than learning from mistakes."
Does this look familiar with what we are seeing in some of the comments?
Religion: The root of MOST evil.....fuck the fucking cracker!
CW 1855
Everyone who believed that yesterday is still able to believe that today. Just like people who believe that cows are sacred animals is freely able to believe that regardless of the amount of beef you eat. Or that Santa Clause brings you toys every Christmas despite what the mean kid told you in 2nd grade.
If you actually recall the start of this saga, it came about because that belief led to a student being assaulted by members of the church and death threats from catholics world wide...
Barry Trask, #1842
It does seem that it's a very small proportion of believers who are making a fuss out of this.
As I've asked before, if it's such a monstrous attack on catholic beliefs, why hasn't the pope stepped up to reassure the faithful in their time of need? No-one's managed to give a proper answer.
We really are dealing with some bonafide Scary Loons for Jesus™ here.
Actually.... NO. The only person who thinks PZ is in any sort of pickle is you as seen by your incessant, pointless, paranoid ranting and squawking.
Really, man. I feel pretty fucking sorry for you.
If this isn't enough proof for you, well, I'm sorry asshole, but you're gonna lose some sleep apparently.
TG: So basically you're saying that you don't believe he really did it, but you think he should be fired anyway.
Wanker.
Good to see that there are saner and more rational folks out there, whether they're religious or not, who can find common ground and call PZ out for what he really is: a senseless bigot.
PZ. You fail.
melior @ # 1747, quoting the Catholic Encyclopedia: According to the best founded opinions not only the substance of Christ's Body, but by His own wise arrangement, its corporeal quantity, i.e. its full size, with its complete organization of integral members and limbs, is present within the diminutive limits of the Host and in each portion thereof.
Ah, now I get it! Jesus is Ray Palmer, who becomes the size- and weight-changing superhero The Atom in DC Comics!
Oh, how much longer until the Justice League movie comes out?
Way to go, PZ! This is a rare post for me to your site, but I read it all the time.
I applaud your excellent writing, your propensity for challenging some of the most harmful, mindless inanity that surrounds us, and respect you tremendously for it.
Please keep it up.
I love the term wanker!!! I wish it would catch on here in the U.S. Kudos Rey Fox!
Is it really that spectacular?
But their beliefs are harming people, millions of people.
You flatter us, we don't really have that kind of power. The statement would be better applied to the catholics.
"But, a well-documented chain-of-custody might be something in the way of evidence. The protocol for that is well established among real scientists, who by the way never link to a YouTube video to say "I got my materials here." LMAO."
Quick, PZ, show some receipts. And video of you with the cracker in a test tube, holding it up to the light and squinting at it. In your best lab coat. The Real Scientists are watching.
The decision to also include The God Delusion among the desecrated words was brilliant. Because Richard Dawkins is not going to be a whiny "respect my work or die" putz about it, so it will make a nice contrast to compare against. "I descrated both, but look how only one causes an irrational outrage - consider what that means."
#1837 Posted by: TG | July 25, 2008 12:22 AM
While that might be a perfectly valid criticism, this was not a scientific endevour (at least as far as I know). So the research documentation effort would be overkill. However, since the host is a just a bit of bread, it really didn't require extreme efforts to accomplish, and really doesn't need extreme evidence. But that won't satisfy you. Tough. PZ did what he said he would and presented reasonable evidence to that effect.
Now, whether it was truly an officially consecrated host or not, we might not ever be confident of. Certainly the chain of evidence would never hold up in a court of law. I'm going to give the donor the benefit of doubt on this.
I've be party to a number of conversations with former and current Catholics who have smuggled a host out. Their claim does not seem unreasonable, nor do they have any reason to make a false claim regarding this. It seems a number of Catholics don't know this is a mortal sin.
Anyway, given the level of the claim, the evidence is sufficient for provisional acceptance and I'm not going to worry about it beyond tonight.
JBS
So, you didn't read the post, huh?
And you call us "uncritical." You've got some nerve little fella.
Oops - sorry for the double post.
Time to go say some Hail PZs...
#1833, you say "and making life miserable for some guy just because he didn't worship it the way he was supposed to".
This is not accurate. The kid in Florida purposely went to a Catholic Mass to rant against the Catholics, and to take a Host, to piss off the Catholics. He didn't go to their Mass to "worship" - he went to espouse hate, and to provoke.
So the analogy of a white guy who hates blacks going into an NAACP meeting and ranting against blacks, and then being told to leave, fits the situation here.
The kid, and now this professor, are ATTACKING the Catholics -- they are interfering with them. The Catholics were minding their own business and doing their thing and this kid started causing a ruckus and took a Host. And this professor, in support of the kid, did this.
Those are the facts. The kid and this professor have gone on the attack against something they disagree with, and hate. They are the ones who are sticking fingers in the eyes of Catholics.
If the professor simply wrote in this blog and elsewhere about how Catholics are wrong, stupid, idiots, etc. then that would be one thing.
But to go on the attack and procure something Catholics deem as sacred and then purposely declare to the world that he is going to 'abuse' it and also declare he is going to show pictures of his abusing it to the world -- that is hate. That is aggressive hate. That is not the Golden Rule.
Again, these are the facts of this case, and they are indisputable. The professor is aggressively attacking Catholics by willfully, purposefully, publicly desecrating something he knows they hold as sacred.
TG,
Did PZ use any university resources to do this? Are there any UM logos anywhere? Did he do this during class? Is he making viewing the picture a compulsory aspect of passing any of the courses he teaches?
You're an idiot. UM are going to do no more to him than what Oxford did to Dawkins after he published The God Delusion and toured the world insulting far more believers than a tiny minority of one sect of one religion.
Why do i say tiny minority? Because if it affected the majority of catholics then the pope would have stood up to reassure the faithful in their time of need. He hasn't; ergo: no big deal for catholics with half a brain.
Long live free thought.
Thank You Dr. Myers.
"The only person who thinks PZ is in any sort of pickle is you as seen by your incessant, pointless, paranoid ranting and squawking."
We shall see what happens. Minnesota ranks 13th among the 50 states in Catholic population by pure numbers and percentage-wise is 21.5%. That's a heck of a lot potential angry voters and taxpayers, not to mention lost enrollment at PZ's home campus.
Sandy at #816 said, "Thanks for giving us your take on the Year 1215. Did you know we're now in the year 2008?"
Perhaps you should apply that bit of logic to your beliefs in a magical cracker? It was semi-okay to believe in magic in 1215. It's 2008 and we know a heck of a lot more about the inner workings of the universe.
#1839 Posted by: bob smith | July 25, 2008 12:25 AM
Well, Bob, if you saw a deaf person about to walk off a cliff, would you stand there and watch, or bodily drag them away from it? We're trying to drag you away from that cliff, but you can't hear us yelling about it, so we've resorted to sometime you will notice.
JBS
bob smith @ # 1880: The kid in Florida purposely went to a Catholic Mass to rant against the Catholics, and to take a Host, to piss off the Catholics.
Hey bob, you're as fact-challenged as your uncle Joseph.
ATTN: Bob Smith
It's a cracker. Get over it.
I'll be willing to bet that absolutely nothing happens to PZ.
The little worker bees are busy aren't they?
Great post. But because I'm an ass... a question.
"Nothing must be held sacred." - PZ Myers
What about truth?
It seems respect for anyone or anything is a hard thing to come by nowadays, from the religous, AND the anti-religous. So you don't believe, okay whatever, do you really have to pull a stunt like this? Seems like a petty cry for attention... easy to understand though, since shock value is quite the rage these days. Still, as a Catholic convert I would just like to say that I respect anyone with a different opinion, I would just ask the same respect for something that we hold sacred.
"TG,
Did PZ use any university resources to do this? Are there any UM logos anywhere? Did he do this during class? Is he making viewing the picture a compulsory aspect of passing any of the courses he teaches?
You're an idiot. UM are going to do no more to him than what Oxford did to Dawkins after he published The God Delusion and toured the world insulting far more believers than a tiny minority of one sect of one religion.
Why do i say tiny minority? Because if it affected the majority of catholics then the pope would have stood up to reassure the faithful in their time of need. He hasn't; ergo: no big deal for catholics with half a brain. "
Obviously, you don't know how these things work. Wait and see what PZ has brought down on himself. Your juvenile arguments mean nothing in the world of real adults playing for keeps. Nor will his, probably, at the end of the day.
Christophe Thill #776,
Actually, before the war, in order to join the SS, who were originally Hitler's bodyguard, you had to prove that you were a catholic in good standing in the church. You also had to be blond and over 6 feet tall.
838,
"No one is forcing you to believe in God, to believe in the Eucharist."
But they're doing their best. Are you unaware of how much atheists are hated and kept out of positions of influence by your church?
Kinda like saying "Sure, no one is forcing you to be heterosexual, but if you don't act like it, you won't ever make a living and your life will be in danger."
You are a complete, fucking idiot. No, there is no gun put to my head to believe in god. At least there hasn't been yet. But it's happened plenty in the past. Atheists who do the same? No, not really. Although there have been some horrible, terrible atheistic sociopaths, very few of them killed in the name of atheism, the belief that there is no god. How many have been killed because of a belief in a specific god? You do the body count.
"If you actually recall the start of this saga, it came about because that belief led to a student being assaulted by members of the church and death threats from catholics world wide..."
Stupid. Since when does a tiny fraction of people who identify themselves as catholics equate to the whole fucking religion? There are assholes in every group, genius. Does that mean we should act like PZ, lazily blame the whole religion, and become pompous bigots?
And if he thinks by 'desecrating' equally Catholicism, Islam, and Atheism, he is safe from being accused of attacking Catholics in a hateful, disrespectful, discriminatory manner, his prior posts where he announced his intentions, and where he announced he added the Koran and others because Catholics said he wouldn't dare do it to the Koran, convict him of discriminating against Catholics, as does his diatribe at the head of this blog which addresses Catholics and their Eucharist. Note that Muslims and the atheists are not discussed by him in the introduction of this blog - only the Catholics and their Eucharist are addressed.
His intentions are clear -- he is specifically attacking and mocking only Catholics, for their beliefs concerning the Host.
Back in the days of Usenet, we had good bunk-house lawyers.
You, OTOH, are an idiot. You've jumped to conclusions and invented crimes that don't exist.
Guys, can you please stop saying that the kid was assaulted by the people in church?
According to every report I've heard, some lady grabbed his wrist and tried to pry his hand open. That's not really assault unless you're a little kid or something. It's stupid, it's a dick move, but it's not like he was beaten up. He was accosted, more than assaulted. I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, it just makes us seem like we're trying to blow it out of proportion and take as much advantage as possible. That's the kind of thing that they would do.
Also, for the Christians: How many different ways can you say "I have faith and so should you!"? Goddammit, people, do you seriously think that we don't believe in gods just to piss you off? If it's so true, why the hell can't you give us a good reason to believe it? And why the hell are there other religions? What special insight do you have? (Please don't say it's the warm fuzzies you get in your heart when you see Jesus nailed to the cross.)
Since when did I say that people who act like assholes are the "whole fucking religion"? The comment was that the belief doesn't hurt anyone, yet the whole incident started because someone was physically assaulted and had their life threatened over that belief. Where does that say that every catholic is an arsehole? Just inferring meaning to maintain your indignity. Pathetic.
Yeah, so? Are you saying that your beliefs concerning the cracker are above criticism? Where do you get off welding this kind of privilege?
...sick world of secular humanists.
Nice of him to give a special shout out to the ilk and minions.
"His intentions are clear -- he is specifically attacking and mocking only Catholics, for their beliefs concerning the Host. "
Why do you people ignore all the posts where he's mocked the beliefs of Muslims - of Mormons, of Jehovah's Witnesses, of UFO fanatics, of Astrologers... etc?
You are not that special, but you act like the beliefs of Catholics are the only ones ever criticized here.
"The Golden Rule is based on love of neighbor, not hate of neighbor. What this guy did is in no way an application of the Golden Rule. It is nothing but hate being purposely put on display." - Posted by: bob smith
Would that be 'Normal Bob Smith'?
If you really want to see some serious 'blaspheming', then click on the links below.
(DISCLAIMER - Neither PZ Myers, nor the University of Minnessota, nor DingoDave deem themselves to be in any way responsible for any adverse reactions whatsoever which Christian fanatics might experience after clicking on any of the following links)
Click and Enjoy. : D
http://www.jesusdressup.com/
http://www.muhammaddressup.com/
http://www.normalbobsmith.com/flash_jesus/flash_jesus.htm
http://www.normalbobsmith.com/revenge/
http://www.normalbobsmith.com/
"And you call us "uncritical." You've got some nerve little fella."
Shut the fuck up. Yes, you're uncritical. Congrats for letting an irrational bigot like PZ do your thinking for you.
Now run along and blindly repeat the mantra as you've been trained: "It's just a cracker." "It's just a cracker."
Nevermind all those humans who value different things for different reasons, be they religious or just plain sentimental.
May the pseudo-skeptical grandstanding continue...
Bob Smith
...he is specifically attacking and mocking only Catholics, for a rabid minority of their cult members wanting special privilege for their beliefs concerning the Host above the beliefs of others.
Fixed it for ya.
TG - if it's such a big attack on all Catholics, where's the Pope reassuring the faithful?
#1833: that is just not an honest assessment. Nobody is forced to go to a Catholic church and worship the Eucharist. The person in question attended Mass at a Catholic Church voluntarily and then did something sacreligious in nature, which evoked a reaction from someone present - proper or improper - to protect the host. I understand you find it all silly, but it doesn't matter. It's not as if someone brought it to him and demanded that he worship it.
And this is why the post above which is so lauded by you like-minded folks is so unfortunate, and you are so hate-filled towards the Catholic Church and/or beliefs that you cannot see it for what it is. There is no point in it other than to harm the emotions of others. Oh, I suppose there is the purpose of reveling en masse in the joyous hatred you all share, but that is infantile at the same time that enlightenment and superb intelligence is claimed. It is not only irony in action, it is so clearly evident to most, and yet completely missed by the cheering section who can see nothing else but some inane vindication. And vindication how? No Catholic who believes in the Real Presence claims that the Host will bleed if stabbed with a nail. So, the reality is nothing has been proved or disproved, other than the bigotry and intolerance of a great number of people.
One post admonished the lack of Christian forgiveness on the comments. Forgiveness is not an easy thing. But, it is a valid point. Forgiveness can be difficult to give, particularly when high emotions are involved, but will it be accepted? Acceptance of forgiveness may be even more difficult, because it requires the person to acknowledge that an act was performed for which forgiveness is required. I will forgive any and all for their actions and comments here that demonstrated sacrelige, hate and/or bigotry. It rings hollow if it is not accepted. I leave that to the receiver of that forgiveness.
That's pure projection. As a previous commenter said, when you godlusters proclaim the evils of nonbelief it's "witnessing" or "evangelizing". When PZ spreads the light of commonsense you call it "hate".
Just think of him as Spreading the Good News of Reason to save you from the horrors of Eternal Mockery.
Wow- up to 1179 posts. With many repeats. 2000 Atheist /
1 billion Catholics not even counting Christians and other religions. Man, you guys have a lot of campaigning to do if you want PZ to publish a book. And a book about what? you losers and your posts. Ha,ha,ha,ha! better start a kitty folks, he's going to need money for heat this winter. Think about it- no matter who gets involved, this country is a whore for the almighty dollar. Once the college starts seeing a drop in attendance he'll be gone. Besides there are more who believe in God than those who don't. How is he going to keep his classes filled? The college is going to pay this guy to teach a handful of students. Even if he doesn't get canned for this, he'll be gone by next summer- Pure economics folks-
The banana was a nice touch! Though Roy Comfort will probably interpret that as a dig at him (intended or not), and he'll be pissed off at you too!!
Your legendary status with the infidels in now assured. Stay safe my friend ...
Axolotl
If you REALLY wanted to piss them off, you should have fed the cracker to some poor hungry child. They would call you a communist and Satanist and lock you up.
I'm disappointed!
THE DARK AGES WERE ONCE SOMEONE'S TODAY. YOUR TODAY WILL BE SOMEONE ELSE'S DARK AGES.
Thanks for a great, eloquent post. PZ- you're my hero!
We all have our cusses to bear.
If you could somehow fuse Poe's law and Godwin's law, you might have the perfect method to describe this thread.
Repeating "irrational bigot" isn't exactly helping your case. Exactly where was PZ irrational? And do you understand what "bigot" means?
Irony alert...
And it is just a cracker, albeit one that you people think is the summoned flesh of christ, which you then proceed to devour.
You've just missed the entire point of the exercise. Actually *read* the posts, and get a clue.
#1886 he was mad that student monies were going to religion, and he wasn't even Catholic, from what I read. He took a Host (he shouldn't have gone up for Communion if he wasn't Catholic) and did not consume it but brought it back to the pew and was accosted by concerned Catholics. If this is not the gist of what happened, then what are the facts?
(btw, Catholics know and it is a fact that practicing satanists often try to obtain a Host to abuse Jesus in their satanic rituals. And the fact that devil worshipers attack only the Catholic Mass and the Host has led to conversions of non-Catholics, since even satan knows the Host is Jesus.
But to my point - Catholics, when seeing someone take a Host and not consume it, suspect satanism might be involved, or at least atheism, so of course they get defensive and protective of it since to them it is very sacred.
If someone walks up to you and your mother on your porch and spits in your mother's face [I assume you hold your mother, or held her if she is passed away, in respect], how do you react? No doubt the same as the Catholics at the Mass reacted toward that kid who took the Host - they were angry and offended that he would come into their Mass and take a Host. It does not matter that you do not hold the Host in respect, they, the Catholics do, and they were in their element, their Mass, doing their rituals and the kid should not even be there if he doesn't believe in any of it. He provoked.)
CW said:
> Shut the fuck up. Yes, you're uncritical. Congrats for
> letting an irrational bigot like PZ do your thinking for
> you.
You know what, CW? The initial posting on the earlier cracker incident might have been ever so slightly offensive and over the top, but **everything** that has happened since can and should be laid squarely at the doors of the asshats who overreacted to Professor Myers' ever so slightly offensive initial post.
#1392 - "Am I the only one that got the Monty Python spanish inquisition skit reference?"
No. I had a chuckle over it as well. It'll probably be lost on most Catholics though.
"Since when did I say that people who act like assholes are the "whole fucking religion"? The comment was that the belief doesn't hurt anyone, yet the whole incident started because someone was physically assaulted and had their life threatened over that belief. Where does that say that every catholic is an arsehole? Just inferring meaning to maintain your indignity. Pathetic."
So someone's hand being grabbed by a senior citizen is now "physical assault". Great logic there.
But that's not the point anyway. What follows from the fact that a small fraction of catholics got mad at a kid for stealing a cracker? That we should act like bigots and assclowns to the whole entire religion and follow PZ's example? Again, great logic there.
Learn to distinguish between lunatics and the actual groups they claim to represent. Every group has them, religious or not. (With PZ taking the cake for atheism.) It doesn't follow that we should bash an entire group of sincere people who don't do us any harm based on the actions of a small subset of jerks within the group. Stop being stupid.
Hurry up with the comments people; we need to hit 2k before PZ closes the thread!
Wow- up to 2000 posts. With many repeats. 1900 Atheist /
1 billion Catholics not even counting Christians and other religions. Man, you guys have a lot of campaigning to do if you want PZ to publish a book. And a book about what? you losers and your posts. Ha,ha,ha,ha! better start a kitty folks, he's going to need money for heat this winter. Think about it- no matter who gets involved, this country is a whore for the almighty dollar. Once the college starts seeing a drop in attendance he'll be gone. Besides there are more who believe in God than those who don't. How is he going to keep his classes filled? The college is going to pay this guy to teach a handful of students. Even if he doesn't get canned for this, he'll be gone by next summer- Pure economics folks-
look at the the busy little worker bees, while the queen sleeps
He's lying again.
Just over 4% for Catholic Priests, right around 2.5% for the general population.
He also lies about charities. Non-Secular charities do far more work for the poor and "last resort" people. Religious charities tend to be more focused on members of their faith.
Actually, he pretty much lies about everything.
That catholic encyclopedia (reference way back up the post!!!) was hilarious thanks. I never realized quite what crazy thinking went on what seemed to be a fairly lame ritual of the cracker (well if you overlooked the whole mumbo-jumbo of playing with a taboo of cannibalisation to show what powerful magick da catholic is). So this is lots of little entire Jesus's being consumed not just a little bit of flesh. And here was I worried about Jesus weight loss - but no omnipotence extends to being present at every Eucharist and every piece of it. Wow. You can fit that much bullsh*t into a cracker? A cracked? A cracker????
PZ, you were a fool to not close this thread before going to bed. Before you wake up it may well exceed 3000 posts - and that's not even counting the sane, reasoned comments.
Sweet mother of Jesus, if my calculations are correct this thread is averaging nearly 3 posts per minute for 11 hours non stop, or 1 post every 20 seconds!
I'm still waiting for a beef-eating Catholic to explain to me how THEY'RE not being a hateful bigot for desecrating the Sacred Hindu Cow.
You made my day Dr. Myers; thank you.
dave said:
> ...Once the college starts seeing a drop in attendance
> he'll be gone. Besides there are more who believe in God
> than those who don't. How is he going to keep his classes
> filled?...
Yo, dave, except for the Jesuits (none of whom are posting on this thread) your co-religionists aren't really known for a love of science and, by and large, wouldn't qualify to study with Professor Myers in any case. There may be many reasons not to expel you, that you will be missed in Professor Myers' classes is not among them.
Bed-time for me. Arguing with Catholic Trolls and other wackaloons that should be institutionalized is not productive.
(btw, Catholics know and it is a fact that practicing satanists often try to obtain a Host to abuse Jesus in their satanic rituals. And the fact that devil worshipers attack only the Catholic Mass and the Host has led to conversions of non-Catholics, since even satan knows the Host is Jesus.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Sir, please stop. There are people sleeping in the building in which I live. My loud guffaws are going to wake them.
Do yourself a favor and try not to be such a noisy little drama queen. You'll save a lot of energy by throwing fewer tantrums.
Anyway, because I see a belief in the supernatural, I am somehow now letting PZ do my thinking for me? Is that what you're saying?
You really are quite rock-stupid, and you shouldn't throw around words like "uncritical" or "bigot" when you have no fucking clue what they mean.
Zaphod- watch and learn grasshopper, watch and learn.
Very well done Dr.Myers, I was hoping you would do something like that. I also thought it was in good taste that "The god Delusion" was in there also because of the people who say that atheist worship Richard Dawkins. Although..if I had to chose a religion..that one does sound pretty cool=)
BRAVO!
This whole indecent, which I am certain isn't over, has made me nothing but happy. And this ending to the part one (it was so good) leaves be wanting part two... I just got back from checking out the Catholic Leagues posts about this. I didn't see if PZ ever stated that his job was actually safe.
Good luck and such.
Wow, that was really terrible. Getting bumped off by something so meek must be insulting.
It's become apparent to me that fairy-tale-worshiping psychopaths don't know the definition of irony. That, or they don't bother to read anyone's posts but their own. That would definitely explain why they keep repeating the same empty bullshit despite being trounced...
Joe, #1905:
The point is if the people at the church had reacted the what Webster Cook did in the same well-thought-out, rational way you have posted here today then we wouldn't be here writing about it.
But they didn't. It was if he'd crucified Jesus all over again - and many posters here have confirmed that, in their opinions at least, what he did is just as bad.
One thing has been proved: there are catholics whose attitudes are sickening by the standards of any honest, decent human being. We've been told that his not eating a wafer is as bad as (if not worse than) as kidnapping, rape and murder.
I don't see any of the atheists on this blog advocating torture or murder or beatings; no-one here has advertised Bill Donohue's home address - I can't say the same for the so-called adherents of the religion of the 'Prince of Peace'.
That is sickening, inhuman insanity, and it deserves to be broadcast to the world.
His job is long gone folks-
he won't make it to this time next summer
It seems no one has the time to read the bazillion posts and most don't realize Dawkins has already posted his appproval. He thought the addition of his book was amusing. His comment is buried way up there someplace.
Has anyone been disemvoweled yet (O___________O)?
Ooops... Gads this thread is killing me.
That should read: "Anyway, because I see a belief in the supernatural as a silly waste of time, I am somehow now letting PZ do my thinking for me?"
There. That should help with your ridiculous strawman, CW.
#1905:
OK, now that you've made a complete ass of yourself by revealing you haven't even read this post by PZ you are so offended by, try clicking the link in it.
Go ahead, we'll still be here laughing at you when you get back.
Congrats to the "rational" chap above who assumed I must be catholic merely because I'm calling PZ out for being a bigot.
I know it's just a cracker. It's just a cow. It's just a rabbit's foot. It's just a paper with green ink on it with a portrait of a president and the number '100'. But if other people value these material objects, whether for religious reasons or not, then let them alone for fuck's sake. They're not harming you. A kid's hand was grabbed by an old lady and he was harassed by Bill fuckin Donahue. If it pisses you off, then take it up with the particular people within the group. Don't be a bigot and bash the whole goddamned religion, furthering the stereotype of atheists as knuckle-dragging assholes, and thereby marginalizing yourselves even more.
Stop being so uncritical and cheering for PZ without hesitation. Think for yourself.
Thank you PZ. We are surrounded by irrational and frightened people. I am so thankful that my wife and I are not ones who live by the fear that causes a belief in silly gods. We also don't believe in ghosts and santa clause. Imagine that! Religion is such a cancer. We wish we could live long enough to see it's demise. Alas, stupidity shall reign long after we are gone. Again, I say thank you.
Bob, once again you are sliding by the FACTS that after this offending person (sure, he did something which offended the beliefs of some of those in the church) left, he was threatened with physical harm, to the point of death, by you lovely religious people, and now those same people are trying to get him expelled. Wonderful examples of Christian love and tolerance. Not to mention proportionality. It is the Host, an inviolable manifestation of the Holy Spirit, an omnipotent and invulnerable being. No harm was done anyone. Jesus Christ himself was critical of Pharisees such as yourself, who made a great to-do of being devout and following ritual, while allowing actual physical pain and horrible injustice to exist all around them.
Disrespect is not hate. Repeat that to yourself. PZ does not hate Catholics. He thinks some of their beliefs are silly, and mocks them. That isn't hate.
Hate would be if he were to say that All Catholics Must Die; or All Catholics Must Be Kept from Public Office (things which Catholics and other Christians have said about atheists, and which is a basic fact in America today). Hate would be if he were to advocate burning down churches and cathedrals, particularly if Catholics were inside. He has done none of these things.
Hate is a big, powerful emotion; and it comes with lies, threats of violence, and a lack of self-awareness evidenced in hypocrisy in action, all of which you have shown in your posts.
You aren't a good Catholic, nor a good Christian, nor a good person. And I speak as someone who was brought up in the Church and knows the Bible backwards and forwards, and who has seen other variations of Christianity at work, helping the poor and destitute.
Congrats to the "rational" chap above who assumed I must be catholic merely because I'm calling PZ out for being a bigot.
I know it's just a cracker. It's just a cow. It's just a rabbit's foot. It's just a paper with green ink on it with a portrait of a president and the number '100'. But if other people value these material objects, whether for religious reasons or not, then let them alone for fuck's sake. They're not harming you. A kid's hand was grabbed by an old lady and he was harassed by Bill fuckin Donahue. If it pisses you off, then take it up with the particular people within the group. Don't be a bigot and bash the whole goddamned religion, furthering the stereotype of atheists as knuckle-dragging assholes, and thereby marginalizing yourselves even more.
Stop being so uncritical and cheering for PZ without hesitation. Think for yourself.
I must admit it's nice to see Mr. Mayers stop persecuting Christians for a change and go after Catholics. It doesn't matter whether the idols you bow down to are of Mary and saints or of Darwin and monkeys, you're all still turning your back on Jesus and putting a big smile on Satan's face.
One thing the Catholics have right is that it isn't a cracker. IT'S A DEATH COOKIE! (See the following link - http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp - to read a fair and balanced scholarly look into this subject.) I firmly believe that the Bible (the TRUE King James 1611 Bible) is the literal Word of God, and the Lord Jesus was literally talking about a metaphor! "This do in REMEMBRANCE of me!" He never said we are to be cannibals feasting on His sweet and glorious flesh or engorging ourselves on His juicy blood! NO!
Atheists are no better. If God wanted us to use "reason", "logic", or "science", He would have told us in the Bible instead of telling us exactly what to do and think! It takes more free will and brings more freedom to obey unquestioningly than to do whatever you want just because it feels good and doesn't hurt anyone else.
I will be praying for all of you.
McCain/Huckabee '08
#1915 Posted by: bob smith | July 25, 2008 1:11 AM
We obviously have different sources. The one I read said he was raised Catholic. BTW, I have, as a non-believer, accepted the bread and wine at Mass. Surely that's as bad as anything PZ did. Of course, I don't have it on video tape, so I have no proof.
This wasn't a Catholic ceremony, so I'm not sure just how blasphemous my act was.
Sounds like hearsay to me. Not very convincing at any rate. How is a bunch of others of questionable sanity believing in the power of your host supposed to impress me?
Just as atheists and Secular Humanists violently attack those that ... no wait, that doesn't happen. Surely proves your version of Christianity isn't harmless.
I don't have a clue. It sounds like Jesus recommended placing your face up for spit reception, though. Also, attacking, physically, a person is miles different from telling them their faith is insane.
But it's not the same, there are places where accepting a host and not immediately chowing on it is normal. Perhaps not for Catholics, but then, apparently, some Catholics don't hold the sacrament in the same extreme as you, either, or there wouldn't be so many tales of keeping the host as a souvenir.
That doesn't justify manhandling and death threats. And by your statement, fully half of the practicing Catholics should not attend Mass.
JBS
"His intentions are clear -- he is specifically attacking and mocking only Catholics, for their beliefs concerning the Host."
Even if he was so fucking what?
Your religion preaches that I'm so horrible I deserve to be tortured forever you hypocrite.
"TG - if it's such a big attack on all Catholics, where's the Pope reassuring the faithful?"
You really want me to go into it all?
The LORD himself prophesied that he would be handed over to evil men, as he was in Jerusalem. Before that happened, he gave himself at the last supper in the first Eucharist. "This is my body". "This is my blood". So that all who fed upon him would have life to the fullest.
If PZ desecrated the LORD's Eucharistic body, the LORD knew of it happening even back then, at the last supper, at the sacrifice on Calvary. He knew that PZ and people like him would do such things with his Eucharistic body before he established the Eucharist and gave himself to death.
So mad with love for humanity the LORD was, that these offenses against him did not deter him from offering life to all of the Father's children would would partake of it.
PZ is just the latest click on the desecration odometer, as you howling, self-absorbed madmen are. Well, not even that really. The hatred for the God of Love is as alive at this instant as it was when he was crucified.
Unnoticed by you atheistic experts on Catholicism is the very real irony that PZ and his co-conspirator, if all is as PZ says, have reenacted the acts of Caiaphas and Judas, just as surely as the sacrifice of Calvary is reenacted at the sacrifice of the Mass when the host is consecrated.
In my opinion, you guys are incredibly ignorant. Just monsters filled with hate towards a man who never did anything but love, purely, and towards his brothers and sisters, children of God. This makes you completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, even with publicity stunts and fawning words of praise for them.
Let me recap 90% of the comments: we are right, they are wrong.
CW said:
> ...furthering the stereotype of atheists as knuckle-
> dragging assholes, and thereby marginalizing yourselves
> even more.
If atheists were knuckle dragging assholes, the god-pounders would be able to point to some flagrant example of it. For example, oh, I don't know, maybe posting Donohue's home address and the schools his children attend on a public message board...
I aspire to be like PZ... I don't let him do my thinking for me... but he is great at teaching people to think.
Religions teach the opposite of critical thought-- they teach the inane lie that you can know things through faith.
I hope CW isn't in a position where anyone is looking to him to do their thinking for them... he seems poorly equipped for the job and deeply in need of some deprogramming.
Thanks, PZ, for inoculating future generations against such stupidity recalcitrant, self-righteous stupidity. Faith destroys brains. Don't let you kiddies grow up to be CW or any of the other crackaloons here!
To all those who revel in The Fantasy of Getting PZ Fired -
I think he would prefer to stay where he is but really, can't any of you see that being pressured out of his job would push his financial possibilities into the stratosphere? You simply can't buy that kind of publicity.
And to those who like to throw around the word 'bigot'. A person's skin color, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation are not open for ridicule or criticism because they are inate. Your religious beliefs are open to mockery and criticism because if your beliefs can't be criticized then you cannot criticize anyone elses (non)beliefs either including PZ's, jihadist's or satanist's. Or do you have rights that others do not? Your very posts betray the stupidity.
I disagree with #1923. I'm glad the thread is still open. We need to see this - see what Catholics are really like. After this, none of us will have to put up with the hypocritical, soft-spoken Catholic asshole who points at everyone else as crazy fundamentalists.
The last time we saw this hysteria was when a teddy bear was named Muhammed. And everyone watching knows it.
It's time to pick a side. Either respect human life more than your delusions about magical crackers or get ready to move to Iran where that sort of medieval stupidity is welcome.
Ooooh, Catholic vs. Protestant slapfight for the adoration of the God of Love! No hair pulling, please.
So, what you're saying is that in order to think for ourselves, we should disagree with PZ?
Like you.
What happens if we actually agree with you? Does that mean you are thinking for us?
Of course, it could be that we are all perfectly capable of thinking for ourselves, and you're just a bitter little bitch whimpering because no one's paying attention to your inane whining.
Hey, I see my favorite Muslim apologist, Nullifidian, is back!
Phenomenal. Trying to use another word of praise that hasn't been used.
PZ that was a fitting end with a really profound message we should all hear.
Thank you.
Nothing is sacred.
Beautiful provocation of thought in breath-taking simplicity.
I love The God Delusion. Seeing it in the trash along with the garbage was the pinnacle moment and the 'coup de grace' in this whole social exercise. The honest, benevolent death blow to the tired specter of religion. For those who think science to be a religion with adherents who hold its tenants sacred, do you now understand the stark contrast?
Bob Smith,
Webster Cook was a Catholic. If you'd actually read before commenting you'd know that.
CW, how has PZ 'bashed the whole religion'? Only a tiny, frenzied minority of catholics give a crap about what's happened. If it was an assault on the majority of catholics I suspect the pope would have spoken out by now to reassure the faithful.
It's like saying that when someone criticises the Discovery Institute they're attacking the whole of Christianity - it just ain't so.
Catholic League president Bill Donohue is now trying to mobilize Moslems against PZ:
"Moreover, we are also contacting Muslim groups nationwide."
http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1465
This isn't hate towards God, it's hatred towards crackers that people worship as God ;)
Honestly, hearing that people actually take a literal interpretation of transubstantiation is the most insane piece of information I've gotten out of this saga. Yes there are Catholic hypocrites who ware issuing violence. That's to be expected. Yes there is a severe case of fatwa envy from a religion that's fallen from importance faster than the speed of gravity. But above it all, I just can't get over the fact that some people actually believe they are eating the body of Christ rather than just taking the ritual as a symbolic throwback to the last supper.
Non sequitur and a bad use of sarcasm.
For fuck's sake. You are just talking by yourself. Repeating the same BS doesn't make it any less so.
What's with you and your fatuous ego? As if you are the only one in the world capable of an independent thought. Such hubris.
#1936: I was not there. But don't make this all about the person who tried to stop him. I can agree that there may have been a better way of handling things, but it seems to me that you are all too willing to remove all culpability from someone who should not have gone to communion in the first place, and even if innocently done (not the case) should have been cognizant or willing to understand the sensibilities of the situation.
As it was, having gone to Mass all my life, the typical reception of the Eucharist is now done in the hand. You place the Eucharist in your mouth and walk to the side, then back down a side aisle in a typical church. This is not ample time to formulate a thought-out reaction to someone walking away fumbling the Eucharist around in their hand. I can easily foresee and understand a quick attempt at getting the person's attention. Since none of us were there and there is some debate, it seems reasonable to think that the grabbing was in no way an assault, and if the person was guilty of anything, it was an act of overzealousness and distraction, and it could be embarrassing to this kid, though by his own actions it was in part self-afflicted.
Upon some calmness settling in, though, he then placed the Eucharist in his mouth and purposely pulled it back out, and then went crazy and held it hostage and started wanting to sue people. Come on... even you defenders have to admit that this is every bit as insane as you claim us believers to be.
In the end, despite the fact that there may well have been an overreaction, it does not support your favorite professor's actions. It just doesn't. His act is, at best, a toddler-like tit-for-tat with no purpose other than to annoy and insult. At second worst, it is a purposeful act of hatred and bigotry. At first worst, in the unthinkable event (in your eyes) that you are actually wrong, and - imagine this - the Eucharist is exactly what we say it is, then he has performed and you have openly supported an act of outright evil on the Real Presence of Christ. I know, I know... crazy stuff. But you cannot disprove it, and as such I personally would just leave it alone. But I guess some people just can't do that.
Wow- up to 2000 posts. With many repeats. 1900 Atheist /
1 billion Catholics not even counting Christians and other religions. Man, you guys have a lot of campaigning to do if you want PZ to publish a book. And a book about what? you losers and your posts. Ha,ha,ha,ha! better start a kitty folks, he's going to need money for heat this winter. Think about it- no matter who gets involved, this country is a whore for the almighty dollar. Once the college starts seeing a drop in attendance he'll be gone. Besides there are more who believe in God than those who don't. How is he going to keep his classes filled? The college is going to pay this guy to teach a handful of students. Even if he doesn't get canned for this, he'll be gone by next summer- Pure economics folks-
look at the the busy little worker bees, while the queen sleeps
where will they all be when he's looking for work?
Mary Maria Whitford said:
"If God wanted us to use "reason", "logic", or "science", He would have told us in the Bible instead of telling us exactly what to do and think!"
That can only be irony, right?
#1945 - i have not expressed hate in my posts - apparently you have not read them. And your definition of hate is your definition, but what pz is doing is hateful. he despises Catholics - how do you know how far he would go to get rid of them?
I guess my facts about the kid are correct -- you basically agree he went to that Mass to provoke. And so he went there looking for trouble, and he found it.
Basically you agree he went into a groups' place of worship with the intent to disturb their worship. What right does he have to do this? Of course folks are looking at this kid as being fanatical, based on his fanatical actions. I'm sure other's did not agree with monies going to religious groups, but they didn't storm the Bastille like this kid did. They probably wrote letters protesting it. They did not figuratively 'spit in religious folks faces' to protest.
What this kid did - interrupting a worship service, was self-centered, selfish, and in fact dangerous int hat a riot could have ensued.
That is why the kid is being censored - he showed lack of judgement. He has not been expelled, but will most likely lose his Senate seat. Yes, he was involved in student govt. All the more reason to act with moderation and not attack religious groups in such a manner.
Yes, people threatened him to give back the Host. Remember, he purposely took the Host to infuriate the Catholics, and guess what, it worked! He held it hostage, when 1) he didn't have to take it in the first place, and 2) he could have given it up as soon as he saw how upsetting his actions were to the Catholics.
He started it, he provoked, and now the consequences of his actions are coming home - he will most likely lose his Senate seat.
And this professor has likewise gone on the offensive and provoked, in defense of that kid's provocative actions.
I'm confused by the "Satanists go to Mass to steal jebus crackers" crap.
I don't know much about Satanism, but the few I've known and asked questions of all told me they don't actually believe in Satan...it's symbolic. I was told they don't do all that voodoo-ish mumbo-jumbo Christians think they do.
Do we know any Satanists who will come here and confirm or deny the godbot's claims that they go to mass to steal jebus crackers?
TG has finally revealed his true colours - and his love of huffing furniture polish.
"I know it's just a cracker. It's just a cow. It's just a rabbit's foot. It's just a paper with green ink on it with a portrait of a president and the number '100'. But if other people value these material objects, whether for religious reasons or not, then let them alone for fuck's sake. They're not harming you.
Posted by: CW"
How are they not harming me? Are they not harming me by taking away my freedom of reproductive choice, or are they not harming me by wanting to take away my right to marry another woman? I'm Canadian, so I currently have those rights despite their most ardent and very vocal objections, and as long as they want to strip me of those rights I will just as vocally point out the ridiculousness of their religion and rites. Rights vs. rites. Seems fair to me.
But that's just me. There's also the millions of people worldwide being harmed by their insistence, along with other sects and religions, that condom use be left out of the fight against AIDS and HIV.
This religion, like most other major religions, is causing very real, very serious harm in today's world. So excuse me for not respecting their frackin' cracker.
That's right Capital Dan!!
I don't know about any types of moral precepts that fellow atheist bark at each other, threatening each other with eternal damnation if we don't follow them. No moral authority figure that we bow down to and kiss the ring of. No one to tell us how to treat women and dictate if we use birth control. All those ideas come from the moral zeitgeist and our own common sense.
Unlike the obedient pawns of the Pope and other religious figures. Calm, submissive and obedient, which rationality is shunned and though virtuous.
dave: (multiple annoying times)
There are more Muslims than Catholics. Allahu Akbar, loser.
To any drone who uncritically chants, "it's just a cracker." Are you REALLY that fucking oblivious?
People assign value to material objects sometimes. Sometimes, material objects play functional or symbolic roles in people's lives (e.g. money, your loved one's gravestone, collectibles, rabbit's feet).
This object means something to a lot of people, even though (granted) it's *just* another object to you. It doesn't follow that we should be bigots and bash an entire goddamned religion, most of whose adherents have not harmed you in any way.
Wake up. Stop being a dick. Stop believing things just because PZ says-so.
"Nothing must be sacred"
Bull. Shit. That's arrogant dogma. It's an assertion without argument. (No, putting it in bold font does not count as an argument, PZ.) Truth is sacred. My kids are sacred. The ring John's wife gave him when she died of cancer, that's sacred. Fuck PZ for being a simplistic, narrow-minded assclown, thoroughly out of touch and uncaring. A lot of you people claim to be skeptical, yet you let a bigot do you thinking for you. You fail.
Things that are crackers: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3202/2663312162_c4cbdc4c98_o.jpg
"he despises Catholics - how do you know how far he would go to get rid of them?"
Personally, as far as this space alone goes, I'm hoping for a mass banhammering by tomorrow. The nuts have served their purpose showing that they are, in fact, nuts. But we can't have them breaking shit around here forever, it's already grown tiresome IMO.
This a lesson you should all learn from- you are going to see first hand how the world really works, I know you have all been protected till now, being in school and all, but watch and see your idealistic world crumble. You see... you can't just say anything you want. Just like you yell fire in a movie theater or bomb in an airplane. You're "free speech" only goes so far. So my assignment is that you all print this and tuck it under your pillow. By this time next year pull it out and read it.
CW, please for the benefit of the thread, look up "sacred" and it connotations in everyday speech.
I think all the godbots are just cranky because their religion is losing its power and cannot get PZ lynched, jailed, or even fired. The glass is almost half full.
Typical Internet flame, albeit in a bit more flowery language than on the pedestrian message boards.
There are more Muslims than Catholics. Allahu Akbar, loser.
Posted by: melior | July 25, 2008 1:46 AM
In Minnesota?? ha
Joe, #1965 wrote:
Er, Joe - your 'believers' have likened this to rape, kidnapping and murder and have threatened violence of a similar level to people for doing it.
Do you honestly consider this kid's stupid stunt - whatever his motivations were - to be every bit as insane as wanting to physically harm or kill a person?
If you do, Joe, then you're exactly the sort of person who PZ's actions are intended to reveal.
No doubt you consider atheists bereft of morals.
dave,
I don not consider you an authority of free speech. Nor do I have reason to think you skillful at divination or familiar with the concept of tenure.
I have long been acutely aware of how crazed and looney the Christian fundamentalists are - you know, the ones who declare that the pope is the antichrist, who "didn't come from no monkeys," the ones who blindly follow neocon gurus and think Rush Limpdick is just swell. But seriously, until I began following this thread, I had no idea how crazed and delusional so many catholickers were. Makes me glad to be an atheist and more than ever grateful for my new hero Pz Myers, and his stand against general looneydom. In my book you can be the 5th horseman of the atheist apocopalypse. And oh, yes, before I turn in, did I make it to 2000?
PZ, from your retelling of the dark side of the eucharist history, I would sum up your sentiment such that considering the many innocent lives that have been claimed in the name of eucharist desecration, the only morally and ethically decent thing to do with eucharist is to publically desecrate them, to demonstrate that eucharist history deserves revulsion, and not respect. And I see your point. More people should get behind this eucharist challenge movement. It may not affect the RCC much, but they may have to lighten up on their attitude concerning the eucharist until this whole episode is forgotten. So many catholics have posted comments here asking that you respect their beliefs, and you have refused. And now, your response should be sufficient to silence them all. If only they could understand. But that will never happen, will it?
Just wait for the fatwah.....it will probably a while until some irate Imam who wants to pick a fight with the US starts the storm ala the 'Danish cartoons'. Maybe send the photo to Iran to speed things up!!
Too much fun, so little time! Take care.
Check your Wiki dip-shit. I'm going to make sure that it's up to date every day for the next month. After that, nobody will remember who you are, assuming that you are still around.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZ_Myers#Eucharist_controversy
"TG has finally revealed his true colours - and his love of huffing furniture polish."
Hmmmm. Was it the PhD educated biologist and full professor you caught on to first or the Catholic side of me?
You? Your credentials are what? Internet poster? HAR!
PZ, please oh please keep this thread open FOREVER. The lulz go on and on.
CW,
There is a difference between important, sentimental and sacred.
A wedding band, tombstone, children, etc. are important and/or sentimental. So is a cracker, but in this case, some people worship the cracker, holding it sacred. Mind you, this is a violation of the prohibition against idolatry, but Catholics aren't been so good at that anyway.
All the college needs is "one" post written on company time and he represents the college. And I'm sure they will find it.
Ha,ha,ha
That's right Anon. You show them who has the moral high ground.
KenG,
Considering that translating the Koran into English is, IIRC, itself blasphemy according to Islam, I can't imagine they're going to do anything at all.
My cult's penis is bigger than your cult's penis...
So, in other words, all you're saying is "boo!"
Dave? Maybe it would help if you looked up what does and does not constitute protected speech.
Then, print it out, and, along with a fistful of sand, shove it squarely up your backside. Your threats really are quite freakin' comical.
What is up with people not reading the post? Jeez, a lot of you folks are so paranoid . . .
How many times can we say it: criticizing a point of view doesn't mean it's a call to ban the point of view.
So all of you guys claiming that PZ wants to get rid of you ("he despises Catholics - how do you know how far he would go to get rid of them? -- #1968), get over yourselves. He has a legitimate point of view that you don't have to agree with, so politely disagree and get on with your lives. If you want to consider the Eucharist to be sacred, then do it--but don't expect everyone to walk on eggshells around you.
If God exists, He will make me the 2000th poster.
I love you, P.Z.!
"How are they not harming me? Are they not harming me by taking away my freedom of reproductive choice, or are they not harming me by wanting to take away my right to marry another woman? I'm Canadian, so I currently have those rights despite their most ardent and very vocal objections, and as long as they want to strip me of those rights I will just as vocally point out the ridiculousness of their religion and rites. Rights vs. rites. Seems fair to me.
But that's just me. There's also the millions of people worldwide being harmed by their insistence, along with other sects and religions, that condom use be left out of the fight against AIDS and HIV.
This religion, like most other major religions, is causing very real, very serious harm in today's world. So excuse me for not respecting their frackin' cracker."
Hogwash. There are gay catholics and pro-choice catholics. You strike me as another oblivious, one-dimensional pseudo-skeptic who's only rubbed shoulders with the lunatics of one particular religion, and you never bother to think beyond the impression they gave you. So therefore the WHOLE religion is a danger to you. Right. Poor you. You can't go out at night because evil catholic vampires with chainsaws will hunt you down and inquire into your sex life. Yeah, it's really that dangerous.
Nobody's asking you to respect a cracker. There's a difference between tolerating something and respecting it; the former can be practiced without the latter. You're being asked to wise up and realize that people assign value to different things for different reasons. It's what humans do, genius. You're being asked to think for yourself instead of praising the irrational bigot that is PZ Myers.