12 lies about "12 mainstream vaccine lies" refuted

Listicles. I hate Listicles. I don't do them. Yet, as much as I hate them, I can't deny that in this brave new world of click bait, listicles bring the clicks, which is why so many blogs and websites post them. Indeed, there's a website, Thrillist, that is dedicated to pretty much nothing but listicles. Not surprisingly, quacks and cranks love listicles as well, because they can go viral, getting passed around through the fevered swamp of antivaccine and quack Facebook pages and Twitter feeds like measles through a Waldorf School.

So it was that I came across yet another one of these annoying listicles, and something in me said: Enough! I need to respond, just for the educational value and because it perturbed me. Such is the benefit of having your own blog. I'm referring to this annoying listicle from Kate Tietje, a.k.a. Modern Alternative Mama, entitled 12 Mainstream Vaccine Lies You Probably Believe. Not surprisingly, the list consists of misinformation and straw men about vaccines, all backed up by references to a rogue's gallery of well-known antivaccine pseudoscientists, all served up with a heapin' helpin' of victimhood, as evidenced by her pre-emptive attempt to inoculate herself against deconstructions of her misinformation and lies by painting all skeptics who question her as nasty, abusive people:

I know — uh-oh, I said the v word. It’s probably the most controversial topic out there right now, and it can lead to seriously vicious attacks. So before we even get started, I ask you, please remember that whatever ‘side’ you’re on, there are real people on the other side of the screen. It is possible to discuss this topic without getting nasty. And I’m not going to publish comments that swear, insult others, or are unnecessary and don’t further the discussion. If you wouldn’t say it to someone’s face, don’t say it here. Differing opinions are welcome; nastiness is not.

Well, I would be happy to say to Tietje's face anything I write here. Stupidity, pseudoscience, and just plain idiocy need to be called out. Also, I'm not writing to change her mind. Her past history shows that that's a fool's errand. I write to counter her misinformation among those whose minds might still be changed. In any case, claiming victimhood and painting herself as badly abused by those oh-so-very-mean pro-vaccine activists is classic Modern Alternative Mama. It's what she does. She also likes to pull what I like to call the "Help! Help! I'm being repressed!" gambit, confusing legitimate criticism of what she says with criticism of her personally and an attempt to shut her down. It's a common tactic of antivaccinationists, who seem to think that freedom of speech means freedom from criticism. It does not.

So, on to the list! Fallacy number one:

1. If you’re vaccinated, you can’t catch the diseases

Sorry, but no.

No matter what, vaccines are not 100% effective. Some people will fail to develop any “protection” at all. Some will find that protection wanes after only a short time. In fact, the pertussis vaccine (DTaP and Tdap) are among the least effective vaccines, with any protection fading in a matter of months (this study explains waning protection). There’s also no evidence (and can be no evidence) that the disease would be milder if you were vaccinated first.

One study showed that a single dose of DTaP was only 55% effective — and only at preventing hospitalization, not the infection itself. And even then, only very temporarily.

The bottom line is, you actually can catch the disease, even if you’ve been vaccinated.

Of course, if there's one place where this fallacy exists, it's among antivaccinationists. Either that, or they disingenuously use this claim whenever it is pointed out how low vaccination rates endanger herd immunity. How many times have you heard an antivaccine activist retort to someone criticizing them something along the lines of, "Why are you worried about my child? If your child is vaccinated, my child is no danger to yours"? I've lost count over the years.

It's also not as though those of us who counter antivaccine pseudoscience don't discuss these issues, either. I've written posts about the problem with the low efficacy of last year's flu vaccine and about waning immunity from pertussis vaccination. In fact, it's because vaccines aren't perfect and do not provide 100% protection that herd immunity becomes important. Think of it this way. Wearing a seatbelt decreases your risk of dying in an auto accident by "only" 45% and of serious injury by "only" 50%? Does that mean seatbelts aren't worth wearing? Of course not! Antivaccinationists like Tietje tend to be prone to black and white thinking. To them, vaccines are 100% safe and 100% effective, or they're dangerous crap. The real world doesn't work that way.

Fallacy number 2:

2. If you’re vaccinated, you can’t spread diseases

Again, no.

If vaccines work as advertised, then you may come across an illness and not catch it — that’s kind of the whole point. However, you can still become a carrier of that illness, and you can still pass it on to others. An article by Suzanne Humphries, M.D., explains that you’re actually more likely to be a carrier if you’re vaccinated. And, a study shows that DTaP is not preventing transmission and infection. That’s the real reason why we’re seeing outbreaks of disease right now — that, and vaccine failure (see point 1).

Let's just say this. Quoting Suzanne Humphries to back up your argument is akin to quoting Mike Adams or Joe Mercola or citing Whale.to or NaturalNews.com. She is antivaccine to the core, and has been known to refer to vaccines as "disease matter," just like Bill Maher. a primate study that questioned whether the pertussis vaccine prevents transmission, which might or might not be applicable to humans, and (2) an article by Suzanne Humphries that cites evidence that, although it prevents disease from the bacteria, the pertussis vaccine might produce a suboptimal immune response that allows colonization of vaccinated, so that they can pass the disease. Whether true or not, this is not a rationale for not vaccinating. It's a rationale for developing a better pertussis vaccine. Of course, a lot of the shortcomings of the current pertussis vaccine came about because concerns about neurological injury from the whole cell pertussis vaccine in the 1980s (which subsequently turned out to be unfounded) led to the development of the acellular pertussis vaccine, which has fewer antigens but is also arguably less effective. It's not as though they aren't recognized and discussed.

Fallacy #3:

3. Titres mean that you’re immune to the disease

Of course, low titres don't mean you're not immune to the disease either. It's not as though immunologists don't know this. On the other hand, the article Tietje cited doesn't actually say that titers are meaningless, either. It's a lot more complicated and nuanced than that. In fact, it even includes a table showing what antibody titers are correlated with protection after various vaccinations.

Fallacy #4:

4. Safe treatments for these diseases don’t exist.

No.

While our medical knowledge 50 or 60 years ago was clearly more limited, we have made great advances now. We’re now able to treat many illnesses with simple, non-invasive means. Vitamin A supplementation is used to prevent complications of measles. Mullein is an herb that’s excellent at treating pertussis (along with vitamin C) and other illnesses. We know so much more now. And alternative medicine often has an answer!

Plus, if you’re concerned about polio, read up on that.

This is, of course, utter nonsense. There are not "safe and natural" treatments for serious diseases, as much as naturopaths and useful idiots like Tietje argue otherwise. As for polio, in her article linked to, Tietje basically argues that polio isn't dangerous and even going so far as to dismiss all those pictures of iron lungs thusly:

As for those iron lungs, they’re outdated medical technology, pure and simple. Doctors today have much more sophisticated machines that they use when someone is struggling to breathe. So, even if the absolute worst did happen — no, we would not see a recurrence of iron lung machines.

Yes, she really said that. To her, just because we now have positive pressure ventilators and long-term tracheostomies for people who can't breathe on their own, it's damned deceptive to be showing iron lungs because we don't use them anymore. Sorry, Kate old bean, but that's history, and, quite frankly, while being hooked up to a modern ventilator via a tracheostomy is better than being stuck in an iron lung, it's still plenty bad.

The rest of her article cites nonsense like the claim that lead arsenate pesticides and DDT are the actual reason polio epidemics started occurring more frequently in the 1930s through 1950s. It's dangerously ignorant misinformation I've deconstructed at length before.

Fallacy #5:

5. The formaldehyde, aluminum, etc. in the vaccines is similar to amounts found in food, etc. and is not a concern

Wrong!

Well — technically, the amounts are similar, or the amounts in foods are even greater. But, ingested aluminum (etc.) is not the same as injected! One study shows that aluminum adjuvants in vaccines are correlated strongly with the development of autism. This study links autoimmune disorders to aluminum adjuvants in vaccines (and cautions against the ever-increasing vaccine schedule). This study suggests that the relationship between aluminum adjuvants in vaccines and autism is probably causal (ie. vaccines cause autism).

Once again, as I've discussed so many times before, the tiny amount of formaldehyde in vaccines is not a threat, as much as antivaccinationists claim it to be so. As for the other "studies," they aren't really studies but review articles by the latest tag-team of antivaccine scientists spewing misinformation, Lucija Tomljenovic and Christopher Shaw. If you want to get an idea of just how bad this not-so-dynamic duo's arguments are, check out my discussion of one of their studies. Let's just put it this way, Tomljenovic and Shaw are fast on their way to becoming the Mark and David Geier of the 2010s.

Fallacy #6:

6. The antigens in vaccines are low and children run across more in daily life

Yes — but.

The antigens in vaccines have been reduced because older versions of vaccines were causing significant reactions. Vaccines bypass the normal immune system defenses — the mucus membranes (stomach, nose, throat) and are injected, which is why large amounts of antigens caused a serious reaction. It’s worth noting that the antigens children run across in daily life do not bypass those initial immune defenses.

They replaced the higher levels of antigens with the adjuvants to stimulate a reaction without so many antigens. But as we saw in the point above, those are quite dangerous.

This is an old antivaccine trope, and a truly ignorant one. (Aren't they all?) For instance, nasal flu vaccines, which are the form of the flu vaccine that many children receive, don't bypass the normal immune system in the mucus membranes. The live attenuated virus vaccine is squirted right onto the mucus membranes of the nasal passages! As for the rest, does Tietje think that kids never cut themselves or never have breaks in their nasal or oral mucosa? Of course they do. The tetanus vaccine, for instance, would be unnecessary if kids didn't cut themselves on dirty objects so often. That's how tetanus is introduced. As for the rest, this is nothing more than the claim that anything not viewed as "natural" must be inferior.

Fallacy #7:

7. Vaccine reactions are incredibly rare/almost never happen

Unfortunately, this might be the biggest lie of all.

Thousands of children have been injured and even killed by vaccines. I personally know dozens of mothers who have vaccine-injured children, and some who, themselves, were injured. It’s not nearly as rare as we’re led to believe.

We do not have solid data, however, because vaccine advocates dismiss almost all reactions as “coincidence.” When a child gets a round of shots and develops a high fever hours later, the mother is usually told that “s/he must have been exposed to something a few days ago; some children will just get sick after shots but the shots do not cause it.” This is a lie.

Wrong again. The reason such reactions are attributed to "coincidence" is not because of a reflexive dismissal of claims of vaccine injury. It's because the question has been looked at in numerous studies and there is no increased incidence of the the reactions attributed to vaccines after vaccination above the baseline. For instance, there's no evidence that children manifest the first symptoms of autism within close proximity of vaccination any more than any other population of children who didn't receive vaccines in that time would develop those symptoms in the same time period.

8. Vaccine companies are liable if reactions do occur

This may surprise you, but no. They are not.

In 1986, Congress signed an act that removed vaccine manufacturers’ liability for any vaccine injuries. There were so many lawsuits that the companies threatened to stop making vaccines. So, Congress gave them legal immunity.

If you are injured by a vaccine, first you must report it. Then, there is a special court system set up. Most cases are dismissed — the vast majority. The few that make it through the entire (long, expensive) process will get a payout from the government. There is a tax on every vaccine dose to pay for this system.

Not quite. All the law says is that claims for vaccine injuries have to go through the Vaccine Court first. If the Vaccine Court rejects the claim the parents can pursue their claim through federal courts, although admittedly post-Bruesewitz, state court claims have been virtually eliminated for product defect suits. Also, as I've explained time and time again, the Vaccine Court is actually set up to make it easier to make claims. For instance, win or lose, complainants will be reimbursed for their legal expenses, which is utterly unlike any other court. Of course, the reason we needed a special court in the first place was that in the 1980s there was a real possibility that vaccine manufacturers would stop making vaccines due to the number of lawsuits being brought against them.

9. The dose of the vaccine varies depending on age, weight, etc.

Again — no.

Vaccines are typically one dose. Occasionally there are two dose options, for certain shots (like high-dose vs. regular flu shot), but generally there is one. That means that the same amount of antigens, aluminum, etc. are going into a 10-lb. baby and a 200-lb. man. Babies and young children, whose bodies do not metabolize drugs like adults’ bodies do, are treated exactly the same when it comes to vaccination.

More nonsense. Vaccines are designed to be safe for children. It's also not true that vaccines aren't adjusted based on weight. For instance, there are specific adult and pediatric versions of these vaccines: hepatitis A, hepatitis B, and tetanus, diphtheria, and pertussis vaccines.

In the cases of hepatitis A and hepatitis B vaccines, adults receive greater quantities of the components that afford protection in order to produce a protective response. However, in the case of the latter vaccines, the quantities of components of the diphtheria and pertussis vaccines used in adults are less than those found in pediatric doses because adults are more likely to experience side effects from these vaccines. As the CHOP vaccine website points out, in the case of hepatitis A and hepatitis B vaccines, adults receive greater quantities of the components that produce protection. In contrast, in the case of the other vaccines, the quantities of components of the diphtheria and pertussis vaccines used in adults are less than those found in pediatric doses because adults are more likely to experience side effects from these vaccines. This whole argument is nothing more than an appeal to one's "special flower" who must have completely individualized dosing. It's a fallacy. Doses of vaccines are not arbitrary. They are determined in the usual series of clinical trials that lead to FDA approval.

Fallacy #10:

10. Vaccine mandates are rational policy.

Not even a little bit.

With the mounting evidence of potential harm from vaccines, the wisest course of action would be to develop new methods to screen children for anything that would increase their risk of harm (auto-immunity in the family, certain genetic mutations, etc.). Also, to delay vaccination, to spread them out, to carefully document any reactions to particular vaccines in each child, to do an individual risk-benefit analysis and decide which one(s) are worth getting for a particular child and which ones are not. It would be wise to practice individualized medicine, as well as to give fewer vaccines overall — reserving the practice for the truly important ones.

Once again, this is utter nonsense, as is usual for Tietje. There is not "mounting evidence of potential harm from vaccines." Vaccines are incredibly safe. The rest of this is nothing more than pseudo-educated technobabble that makes it sound as though Tietje knows what she's talking about when she clearly does not. The bit about "individualized" medicine is nothing more than latching on to the latest buzzwords, like "personalized medicine" or, as it's now more commonly called, "precision medicine." Here's the problem that is easily demonstrated by simply repeatedly asking point blank of people who spew this nonsense: What, precisely, are your criteria for determining which diseases should be vaccinated against? Which vaccines do you consider safe and effective and therefore recommend? Why? How, specifically, would you determine which children are more at risk for vaccine-related adverse events? What tests would you use. Inevitably, antivaccinationists will dodge the questions, respond vaguely, or unleash a bunch of quackery about tests that purport to predict vaccine reactions.

Fallacy #11:

11. The diseases we vaccinate for are incredibly dangerous

Thankfully, no.

Most of these diseases were normal childhood illnesses and were a very uncomfortable week or two, but were not dangerous for healthy children. Read more about measles, a risk-benefit analysis, and pertussis. It’s not to say that there aren’t a small number of children who were seriously ill or died in the past, but medical knowledge has advanced quite a bit since that time, and we still haven’t answered the question which is truly safer for our children long-term, the vaccines or the illnesses. That’s important.

This is just so wrong it's not even wrong. Hepatitis B, for instance, is incredibly dangerous. For measles, as I discussed in the wake of the Disneyland measles outbreak, actually hospitalizes a significant proportion of children who get it, while one in a thousand can develop encephalitis. When tens or hundreds of thousands of children get measles, the number of children who develop encephalitis or die becomes significant. Measles is not benign, and benefits of the measles vaccine actually go beyond preventing measles because measles suppresses the immune system and children die of other diseases at a higher rate in the two years after having the measles. When weighing the risks and benefits, there's no doubt: Vaccination is far safer than the diseases.

Finally, fallacy #12:

12. There is a clear scientific consensus on vaccines, and doctors recommend them because they fully believe in them.

As we can tell from all the information above — which is not shared in the mainstream, but which many doctors and researchers believe and share through alternative means — there is not.

Um, no. This is nothing more than a technique beloved of cranks everywhere: Cherry pick poorly done science from a crank fringe and then use it to claim that there is a scientific "controversy" about a scientific consensus. Creationists do it. Anthropogenic global climate change denialists do it. Cancer quacks do it.

And antivaccinationists do it. A lot.

Indeed, there's a whole cottage industry of people doing bad science designed to demonize vaccines, including a cast of characters we've met many times before and whose descents into the depths of pseudoscience I've documented over the last decade, names like Mark and David Geier, Andrew Wakefield, the aforementioned Lucija Tomljenovic and Christopher Shaw, and, unfortunately, many others. This "science" is then cited by antivaccine advocates as "evidence" that there's an actual scientific controversy. There isn't.

Hilariously, Tietje finishes with a challenge:

I have no interest in getting into a fight with anyone over issues that can’t be informed by science. And by the way, for those who will argue with this post, if you are going to state that the science I relied on is wrong, you need to be prepared with your own peer-reviewed information. Newspaper articles do not count. Saying it exists and not sharing it does not count. Saying that your science is right and my science is wrong will be ignored (and not published). Acknowledge it’s a complex issue and we’ll discuss it rationally.

Such an utter lack of self-awareness due to the worst case of Dunning-Kruger effect that I've seen in a long time amuses me.

I didn't have time or space to refute each reference that Tietje listed point by point, as that's beyond the scope of a single blog post. However, I can do that. I have done that sort of thing many times in the past, as I linked to past discussions of the bad science of the antivaccine movement. If I thought Tietje were serious, I'd even drop the snark for such a discussion. However, I know how such a discussion would go. I'd point out the flaws in a study in detail, and she'd reject my criticisms. I'd cite many studies showing the safety and efficacy of vaccines, and she'd reject them as being hopelessly tainted by big pharma. I'd point out where her understanding of the basic science of vaccines is wrong, and she'd interpret that as trying to suppress her freedom of speech or "attacking" her. It wouldn't matter how polite and civil I was. That's how it would go.

So I created a counter-listicle instead.

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There's more intellectual stimulation debating a 2-year-old having a tantrum than trying to get the attention of AV Luddites like Modern misinformative mama. MAM and most other AV sites censor all posts that challenges them--unless they feel there is a chance they can "pile on" to the token opposing post they occasionally let through. No actual debate allowed by them, unlike here.

Tietje loves to blather on about "medical advances" , but her understanding of those advances is nil. May her children never be severely ill, because people like MAM can and do let their children be hurt or die rather than seek timely medical help.

By Chris Hickie (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

So glad you wrote this. I don't know why I keep going to her site and reading her ridiculous posts, they just make me angry.

Her latest one, "12 More Mainstream Baby Lies", really tot to me. She basically tells people to ignore medical professionals. She says back is not best for sleep, breastfed babies don't need vitamin D, well-child visits aren't necessary. This is dangerous stuff!

So, she knows dozens of vaccine-injured children? Really? I have small children and I don't know any vaccine-injured children. I do, however, know of someone who almost died from measles and has been in a wheel-chair almost her whole life from complications (my aunt).

Sometimes I think there should be some kind of restrictions on what lay people can post on the internet about medical topics. MAM gives medical advice, regardless of her disclaimer. She even self-publishes books about natural remedies for children, she has a new one coming out any day now. Uh!

It’s not to say that there aren’t a small number of children who were seriously ill or died in the past, but medical knowledge has advanced quite a bit since that time

News flash for Tietje: there are still children who become seriously ill and die from these diseases. And, yes, medical knowledge has advanced quite a bit, but preventing a disease is still better than treating it (or providing supportive care until it naturally resolves). $20-$30 for a vaccine vs. hundreds to thousands for hospitalization? Plus lost productivity. Plus increased risk of spreading it to others.

Acknowledge it’s a complex issue and we’ll discuss it rationally.

She keeps using that word. I don't think it means what she thinks it means.

As most of Orac's readers know, lots of bad papers make it through peer review. It seems to be a particular problem in biomedical fields, because woo practitioners have learned how to game the system such that the reviewers are almost certain to be like-minded. It's standard practice, at least in my field, to have graduate students discuss papers and criticize things that those papers got wrong. More than once, as a reviewer, I have gone back to published papers by the same author(s) and found flaws in those papers, which I mentioned in my review recommending rejection of the manuscript I am reviewing. Maybe it's not standard practice in Orac's field, but perhaps it should be--it would have the effect of giving medical researchers practice in rebutting spurious studies that woo-pushers like to cite.

By Eric Lund (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

I'm so relieved that modern breathing machines have superceded the iron lung. That makes polio all right then! /heavy sarcasm

By palindrom (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

Recently in Germany a child died from measles, but I suppose ms. Tietje has some excuses for that dead, probly the child wasn't healthy, or something else, but it's never just the disease.

And yes, I suppose there are advances that make iron lungs not as clumsy as the once one can see on pictures. Just like wheelchairs are more lightweight and probably motorist. Still I'm sure people in a wheelchair would rather do without.

News flash for Tietje: there are still children who become seriously ill and die from these diseases. And, yes, medical knowledge has advanced quite a bit, but preventing a disease is still better than treating it (or providing supportive care until it naturally resolves). $20-$30 for a vaccine vs. hundreds to thousands for hospitalization? Plus lost productivity. Plus increased risk of spreading it to others.

Silly Todd, most of those are little brown children mostly in other countries not this one. They don't count. /sarcam

By Frequent Lurker (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

@Frequent Lurker

I know, I know. Or if they are in this country, they're probably immigrants, or malnourished because their families are poor, or they eat too much sugar/gluten/white rice/meat/preservatives, or don't take supplements, or they weren't breastfed, etc. Always a reason to minimize the suffering and death.

Counter-listicle FTW!

Now if you could only fit that into a Tweet.

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

@ Todd W.

Plus suffering. The flu is no fun.

By Paul de Boer (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

All the law says is that claims for vaccine injuries have to go through the Vaccine Court first. If the Vaccine Court rejects the claim the parents can pursue their claim through regular courts.

Sigh. No, not post-Bruesewitz.

Concerning #9, Last year Ireland had to ask people to come back for a flu booster because some people inadvertantly received a child's dose. It's even marked on the throwaway syringe but for some reason the training didn't make clear that adults were meant to get the full whack. So yeah some vaccines have larger doses for adults / children.

I'd like to write a buzzfeed list of the 5 stupidest ideas in the history of mankind. No. 2 would be that formaldehyde in vaccines represents a health hazard. No. 1, by a long way, would be homeopathic prophylaxis. Open to suggestions on the last three!

By VaccineTruthUK (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

I always wonder how people like her can claim to know if so many vaccine injured children. As a primary care physician, I've taken the family medical history of probably around 10,000 patients. Not once has anyone ever given me a family history of a vaccine injury in their child or family member. Not once. Although I did recently take the history of someone whose brother died of a vaccine preventable disease before there was a vaccine available- meningococcal meningitis.

By NH Primary Care Doc (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation funds vaccine programs in poor countries. Bill Gates said that we are a victim of our success, that in places like America most people have no experience of life in an a pre-vaccine society, but in countries with low vaccination rates, anti-vaxxers get short shrift. MAM thinks polio is not a "very dangerous" disease. Try saying that in Nigeria.

By DanielWainfleet (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

@VaccineTruthUK: 3. Aluminum in vaccines cause brain damage, Alzheimer's,, etc 'cause toxins 4. Colloidal Silver can cure all ills 5. It's only a Flesh Wound!

@ #11

That decision must have cheesed some ambulance chasers off.

Is there a maximum to the damages the Vaccine Court can award?

#14

Odd that one: my colleagues and I took many, many developmental histories as part of autism assessments and I cannot recall "vaccine injury" cropping up...

I can however remember encountering folk who lived with the long-term effects of childhood polio in the 1940s, including my aunt.

Mumur - sad isn't it. What is that expression about taking one generation to forget. Personally I think we are now onto forgetting in a year or less. Regardless, there has to be some way to translate the dangers of communicable diseases without having to have outbreaks up close and personal.

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

I always wonder how people like her can claim to know if so many vaccine injured children.

I'd guess that for her "know" means folks who've commented on her blog, "friends" on FB, etc.

@DGR: Yes, I expect that self-selection is part of it. She is probably also defining "vaccine injury" much more broadly than most doctors would: I'd guess that she defines any case that is filed with the Vaccine Court to be a vaccine injury case, whether or not the court rules in the parents' favor (and as Orac notes, the rules for that court are quite generous, so even restricting the definition to favorable rulings will likely get you lots of false positives, and no or nearly no false negatives).

By Eric Lund (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

Did you skip a sentence or something in your response to #2? It seems to flow poorly.

By Chan Kobun, th… (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

@Eric Lund

I'd wager that a lot of those who are opposed to vaccinations define vaccine injury as any adverse health outcome that manifests sometime after receiving a vaccine that have no other plausible explanation...and even some that do.

palindrom@5: Yeah, funny how where us lot see a roomful of quadraplegic men, women, and children, Tietje sees only a roomful of soulless metal machines. What a humanitarian.

MAM thinks polio is not a “very dangerous” disease. Try saying that in Nigeria.

There is good news on that front. I have seen reports that there have been no new cases of polio in Nigeria in the past 12 months.

Here is one report (The Guardian)

It’s probably the most controversial topic out there right now

Bit of an over-inflated ego, has she?

Without struggling, I can cite three topics a lot more controversial than vaccines, with political platforms built almost solely around them, and lengthy dissertations about them in all good philosophical libraries.
These topics share a common thread, the morality/ethics of ending a life.
But maybe that's just me.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

VPDs are mild?

Back through the mists of time...
when I was a child I contracted measles prior to receiving my scheduled vaccine. Although I was old enough to recall this, I really can't -except about being stranded in a darkened room and forbidden to read, write, draw or exercise.
Older cousins inform me that I was sick for 3-4 weeks and that adults were very worried about my vision.
I possibly have visual issues related to the episode.

One of my gentlemen retired early from a corporate job and chose to work part time with school children** in Posh Town where he often spends time in a library: a few winters ago he developed a persistent cough that he believes was pertussis which he treated himself**: he believes the condition exacerbated his asthma which had been under control previously.

I study dance with a young woman from South America: although she is quite lively- and hilarious- she often seems sad which I had attributed to her perhaps missing her homeland and struggling with English daily . I was wrong: she spoke about how she had married a local guy after she moved here- he was wonderful. Suddenly, one day after work he became extremely ill so she called an ambulance for him - he was diagnosed with meningitis and died after a week. He was 29 and had never been ill. This happened 5 years ago. He was probably of an age that his schooling did not require the vaccine.

** go figure

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

Sigh. No, not post-Bruesewitz.

You're right; I added a clarification about state courts. I was running out of time to finish this before I had to leave for work and didn't do the points in order. That was the last point I worked on.

Antivaxers want to believe that today some vaccine-preventable diseases are easily cured, and therefore vaccines are useless.
The last epidemic of such a benign disease as measles in Italy (2010-2011) was reported in EuroSurveillance (Volume 18, Issue 20, 16 May 2013).
More than 5,000 cases were reported (prevalently from rich areas, where people believe more readily to AV lies, as Orac reported.) 1,300 were hospitalized, 135 had pneumonia, seven encephalitis, and one died.
The young person who died could not be immunized for a true immunological disease -not a false one such as those for which dr. Bob promised his action.
Which, by the way, shows how herd immunity is indispensable to protect people who cannot be vaccinated.

By perodatrent (P… (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

Have been lurking on an anti vaccine group and am on a thread that is extolling home birth as safer than hospital delivery. The group isn't just anti-vaccine, they are anti-science, anti-medicine... I am horrified at the breezy dismissal they share when real life bad outcomes are mentioned, or that in some states licensing is not required (that got "doctors are licensed and kill 400,000 annually response). My daughter-in-law lost her first child when she opted for midwife only...

People like MAM are dangerous, and their insistence on amplifying their echo chambers with only positive responses makes it worse for someone who hears about "alternatives" and begins to attempt to locate truth.

VaccineTruthUK@13:

I’d like to write a buzzfeed list of the 5 stupidest ideas in the history of mankind. No. 1, by a long way, would be homeopathic prophylaxis.

Warning! Dangerous known side effects of homeopathic prophylaxis can include Andrew Wakefield!

Mrs Woo,

I hope you are feeling better.

It appears that every harm in the healthcare world doesn't exist except for any the real or imaged harms at the hands of the people who have made it possible for them not to be harmed.

It reminds me of the naivete of third-graders who thinking their parents are mean plot to run away from home.

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

#13 VaccineTruthUK

A couple of my favourites.

They laughed at Galileo. They may have; his theory predicted one tide a day.
Or
CO2 is a harmless plant food. This is probably due to an inability to spell “Arrhenius”.

By jrkrideau (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

@ jrkriideau:

CO2 as plant food?
Mike Adams blathered like that in the past year or so.]
Yes, he denies AGW.

And right, he studied SCIENCE at a large university in the Midwest so I suppose he would know.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

Mrs. Woo - So sorry to hear about your daughter-in-law's outcome.

It bears repeating that not all midwives are created equal. An associate of mine worked for years as a hospital-based Certified Nurse Midwife, after two years of advanced science-based training; her practice worked closely with physicians as needed, and had an excellent safety record.

By palindrom (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

As for those iron lungs, they’re outdated medical technology, pure and simple. Doctors today have much more sophisticated machines that they use when someone is struggling to breathe. So, even if the absolute worst did happen — no, we would not see a recurrence of iron lung machines.

Hahaha. Because seeing young children on ventilators is so much better. Have you heard the alarms that vents make? They're downright fun!

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

>>" Doctors today have much more sophisticated machines that they use when someone is struggling to breathe."<<

Spoken in the detached manner of a person who's never actually had to see her own child in respiratory distress.

And sometimes, in this modern age, even those sophisticated machines are not enough. How about preventing the life-threatening illness in the first place?

By Still Shaking Mama (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

Angela@2
My god, is she dangerous.

With safe bedding and safe sleeping arrangements — chemical-free mattresses, relatively firm surfaces, smooth sheets and light blankets until baby can roll/move well — there’s no evidence that back sleeping specifically is necessary or safer. Many babies will only sleep if they are on their stomachs in the early weeks.

She wasn't content just poo-pooing the old Back to Bed campaign, she had to make sure to modernize her misinformation. Safe to Sleep says no blankets, not light blankets. Thank goodness these campaigns have had no effect on the rate of SIDS, otherwise her bullsh*t might be a real public health threat.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

I want to have shirt printed that states:

Vaccines are safe!
Except for these people.... And then list those situations where one might be endangered by receiving a vaccination.

What would those be?

By Tom Hutchinson (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

Thanks

By Tom Hutchinson (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

Sorry if this has already been mentioned; I have a brief lull in a busy day.

As for those iron lungs, they’re outdated medical technology, pure and simple. Doctors today have much more sophisticated machines that they use when someone is struggling to breathe. So, even if the absolute worst did happen — no, we would not see a recurrence of iron lung machines.

Strange that. as of a year ago at least, there were still 10 people living in this "outdated technology," eh, Kate?

I wonder what kind of f*cking lifestyle of positive-pressure ventilation Katesie imagines would supplant it.

I had measles at 3 despite being vaccinated because it was before the MMR was given twice. It *sucked*. I remember being so sick, and the horrible stinging eye drops I had to have to save my eyes.

My grandmother's older sister died at 5 from measles.

I had a great aunt who was bound to a wheelchair because of polio.

A friend's twin nieces contracted meningitis at 6 months old, and one didn't survive.

But, you know, the diseases we vaccinate for aren't dangerous...ugh...

Spoken in the detached manner of a person who's never actually had to see her own child in respiratory distress.

Given that her son had a broken arm for a week before she took him to a doctor, are you sure she'd even notice?

These people... It's like they never get sick or something? I don't get sick often, but when I do, I rarely enjoy the experience (as in never). Even just the flu makes you feel like complete shit.
I got something recently (gastro-entérite?) that glued me to the toilet seat for a week straight. Couldn't eat, yet I was as hungry as I've ever been, had fever, headaches and even mild hallucinations (probably from the fever). Lost about 15 pounds. Believe me, if I could get a vaccine for every possible disease, I would. These antivaxxers puzzle me.

Wow, check out this gem from the comments:

Annie

So all the doctors, medical schools, and researchers all over the world are wrong?

Kate Tietje

The short answer is yes.

Dunning-Krueger writ large.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink
Sigh. No, not post-Bruesewitz.

You’re right; I added a clarification about state courts. I was running out of time to finish this before I had to leave for work and didn’t do the points in order.

I'm glad you had an on-point comment to hand; I was barely conscious at the time.

<>

I would be more shocked at that if I didn't know someone IRL who is the same way. She took one of young boys to a chiro with a neck injury.

I sincerely believe if her 4yo was in respiratory distress like ours was last year, she would've been rubbing essential oils on his feet.

By Still Shaking Mama (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

#44 removed my quote, which was from Shay's #41:

"Given that her son had a broken arm for a week before she took him to a doctor, are you sure she’d even notice?"

By Still Shaking Mama (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

@ capnkrunch:

Sure. That particular sentiment is common amongst those I survey:
a person with the barest semblance of an education criticises
entire fields of research- how can anyone, no matter how bright they are- be informed enough in fields like medicine/. biology which have become incredibly technical and complex over the past 20 years or so to serve as a critic without a standard education in those disciplines as a START?

Then, they jump to an entirely DIFFERENT AREA!
( medicine- economics- biology- philosophy)

They don't know that they are unable to fathom the depths of these areas. They superficially skate atop the surface, dropping terminology to impress those who are even LESS aware ( if that's at all possible) than they are.

It's pathetic really.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

Orac says (Fallacy #7),

... there’s no evidence that children manifest the first symptoms of autism within close proximity of vaccination any more than any other population of children who didn’t receive vaccines in that time would develop those symptoms in the same time period.

@Orac,

I think your trying to say that vaccines don't cause autism?

MJD says,

The really important question that medical science needs to answer is do some autistic children regress after vaccinations?

By Michael J. Dochniak (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

Can Dunning-Kruger even apply to Kate? What is her base of experience/education anyhow? It might just be garden-variety arrogantly ignorant.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

Given that her son had a broken arm for a week before she took him to a doctor, are you sure she’d even notice?

We've (tinw) been through this.

Twice.

Don't be too eager to leap on the tritely scurrilous when there are so many genuine targets, I'd say.

@ Science Mom:

I have a pet theory that someone who indeed has an education in a particular field can possibly estimate the level of a woo-meister's / pretender's faux expertise in that area.

For example, by listening to an alt media honcho elaborate about developmental, cognitive or clinical psych I have a reasonable idea about what he studied- or more likely, did not study. .I just listened to this whole explication of how to 'cure' Alzheimer's and ... well, the less said the better. but.there was astonishing poverty of thought.
Hilariously, the head woo often says, " I'll put it into lay language" as if he weren't a layman.

We've all seen how poorly Hooker and others make use of statistical analysis.

With Kate, I doubt that she has much of an education beyond the secondary level.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

The really important question that medical science needs to answer is do some autistic children regress after vaccinations?

That question has been asked and answered, and that's exactly what I meant when I said that children don't develop their autistic symptoms for the first time after vaccination at a rate that can't be attributed to random chance alone.

The really important question that medical science needs to answer is do some autistic children regress after vaccinations?

"Let's put MJD in charge of ranking priorities for medical research and apportioning research funds," said absolutely no-one ever.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

Nuair bha mi òg, I went for a week or more with an undiagnosed broken arm. It wasn't that my parents were negligent, it was simply that it wasn't conspicuous and not any more painful than a typical minor booboo - not that anyone in that time and place used that term. But the minor discomfort did persist, so it was eventually x-rayed and a cast applied.
In contrast, the greenstick fracture of a few years later was alarmingly conspicuous.

I spent a lot of time at Goggle U this spring trying to find good info on current practice for care of minor traumatic wounds - of the sort arising from things like the rapid transposition of the Z axis of a bicycle and rider with the X or Y axis. Curiously (or not) black salve was not a recommended product.

I can see it being useful for splinter removal - apply to skin around splinter and simply wait for eschar to form and fall off along with the splinter. Perhaps a little lavender oil afterward to sooth the irritation.

In the "small world" department, this from Wikipedia:

The TGA has found the Australian Vaccination-Skeptics Network (AVN) in breach of advertising regulations,[18] and in a separate finding the AVN's former president Meryl Dorey together with Leon Pittard of Fair Dinkum Radio were found to be in breach

(for advertising black salve)

I can see it being useful for splinter removal – apply to skin around splinter and simply wait for eschar to form and fall off along with the splinter.

I am reminded that some podiatrists (one of which I regrettably don't have) recommend "beetle juice," i.e., the blistering agent cantharidin, for the treatment of intractable plantar keratoses (one of which I regrettably do have, bad).

As I recall, the idea is to inject it underneath the nucleation. I've yet to figure out how the dermal remodeling is supposed to work afterward.

I am reminded that some podiatrists (one of which I regrettably don’t have) recommend “beetle juice,” i.e., the blistering agent cantharidin, for the treatment of intractable plantar keratoses (one of which I regrettably do have, bad).

Is there a free clinic or something you could maybe go to? That sounds painful.

Geez, doug, burning away all the skin to get at a splinter sounds a lot like discarding the neonate with the cleansing medium. When I overlapped wheels at 45 kph and took out a bunch of skin and a clavicle I apparently didn't really need anyway, the folks in the ER made due with shooting me up with morphine, scrubbing the road rash with a stiff brush (which was an "ow-ie!" even on morphine), and putting a nice dressing on it.

By palindrom (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

Having been born in the 1950's vaccinations were not available for most childhood diseases. There were several children in my small school who had polio and the long term effects. I had a friend who would use crutches her whole life and another who was required to wear prosthetics due to the damage this horrible disease left.
The only vaccination I received as a child was for polio. I had measles and mumps at the same time and was very ill for several weeks. My mom tells me I was very delirious and the doctor actually came to the house every day. Of course I also had chicken pox.
I made sure my children had all recommended vaccinations on schedule. However, the chicken pox vaccination was not available then so all three had it at the same time including my husband. I really wish I had been able to spare them that experience and the ugly possibility of shingles.
I really despise these anti-vaccination types and the fear and misery they spread.

By Sandy Penrod (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

@Alicia #41

This has undoubtedly been said before: younger generations are easily bamboozled by anti-vaccine nonsense because they have no idea of how common many diseases were in earlier generations. In the U.S. and Canada in the 1950s and early 60s, chickenpox, measles, and mumps were so common, they were practically a right of passage. Like broken bones and wounds, kids would brag about surviving them. But as we later came to realize, viral diseases were not without dire consequences, and you could die or suffer life-long injuries from them.

Within 10 blocks in my neighborhood alone, I recall at least 5 people who lived in braces, walked with crutches, or got around in wheelchairs due to polio. Too young and dumb to know why, it was only later in life that we learned their plight was because of a virus.

By Lighthorse (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

@Sandy Pernod #61

We must have been writing at the same time; your post had yet to appear as I wrote mine.

By Lighthorse (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

MJD @ #49

The antivaccinationists say that autism is caused by vaccines.

They won't be pleased with you saying that vaccination only makes a pre-existing problem worse.

Anyway, as Orac points out, scientists have already investigated, and disproven, your idea that autism occurs before vaccination and that it's only regression that occurs after vaccination.

@Herr doktor bimler:

Thanks for that. We're getting a bit OT, but for those who want to follow up, here are couple of essential historical references to an extract of Venus's flytrap used in the treatment of cancer, neither of which are in English or attended with abstracts:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3902598

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3375655

For some penetrating questions to one of the current purveyors of the extract:

http://supplement-geek.com/carnivora-review-of-research-venus-flytrap-i…

By Lighthorse (not verified) on 07 Aug 2015 #permalink

NH Primary Care Doc #14

I completely agree.

I've spent at least 80,000 hours working in the front line of public hospitals and EDs.

I can't count the number of grizzly infants with a temp of 37.5 I've seen post vaccination. I guess Tietje would label them vaccine injuries. I wouldn't.

I've also seen innumerable sore arms and legs following injections (not all from vaccinations), that include myself, my spouse and offspring. Tietje would probably also label them vaccine injuries. Again, I wouldn't.

The one vaccination injury I have seen, that I would label as such, was an adult who had anaphylaxis following influenza vaccination and is perfectly well a couple of decades later.

Where are all these vaccine injured people she talks about?

Is there a free clinic or something you could maybe go to? That sounds painful.

I have found with both private and public insurance that podiatry is a rare benefit indeed unless one is diabetic. I have no doubt that there's an interestingly detailed reason for this in the literature or some white paper or some documents the CDC had put into a comically oversized trash container to cover up the whole foot–gut–something connection* — and Dear G-d, basic dental is vastly more important for all — but I seem to be an actuarial outlier.

But this is neither here nor there; the "black salve" just got me to thinking about caustic dermatological agents. I mean, does Katesie even really know the difference between the dermis and the epidermis? There's remodeling the dermis, and then there's replacing it with scar tissue.

* I have noticed that Cynthia Parker has taken to "mercury being relased from her bones" or something lately.

Narad, that matches my experience of treatment for plantar warts. My mother painted nail polish around the plantar, then she applied a caustic agent prescribed by the doctor directly on to the plantar. It ate the plantar away and my body generated new flesh to heal.
It still damaged some healthy flesh, though.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 08 Aug 2015 #permalink

Old enough to have only gotten smallpox and polio vaxes and the former didn't take. Caught chickenpox and mumps in the same year and can only remember misery and baths with a high % of Calomil. (Now that is the smell of victory!)

It's impossible for me to comprehend how anyone could roll the dice and think the odds are 1) their kids won't get sick; or 2) they will not get "sick" sick, just a little cough and an embarrassing rash. Adding to that the stunning display of Dunning-Krueger put on by these mavens and it's dumbfounding that anyone could buy into their delusional ranting and self-justification.
I was talking with a new acquaintance at our favorite local brew pub and he said something so simple yet so perfect I was mad I hadn't come up with it first. To wit: "If you don't know what you're doing, the Internet is the worst place to go for medical information."
Too right...
Praise the Old Ones for Orac and the Oracles of the other skeptical blogs.

Narad @68 -- I can see how working on teeth requires a highly specialized skill set, but the fact that dentistry is not covered as part of medical insurance is, well, bizarre, and incredibly cruel.

By palindrom (not verified) on 08 Aug 2015 #permalink

In other anti-vax news..

Dan O seems to have replaced his Weekend Wrap-up with another feature Week In a Word ( last week)/ Week in a Number ( today) AND it's 1938.

That's the "start date" of autism.

He seems quite thrilled that the Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders ran his and Blaxill's "commentary" in their most recent issue.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 08 Aug 2015 #permalink

@Woo Fighter #56

Instead of genuine black salve, which anyone can look up at Wikipedia, I searched her site and found a DIY recipe for making what she calls "black salve", but the ingredients are very different: beeswax, lavender buds, betonite clay, and apricot oil.

By Lighthorse (not verified) on 08 Aug 2015 #permalink

Stuartg says (#66),

They won’t be pleased with you saying that vaccination only makes a pre-existing problem worse.

MJD says,

The Mayo Clinic tells us that boys are about four times more likely to develop ASD than girls are.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/autism-spectrum-disorder/…

A recent study concluded:

Despite earlier calls for sex-specific analyses of clinical studies, we found that vaccine trials were rarely reported and published by sex. Prospectively collated vaccine safety data in children and adolescents should be analysed by age and sex, so that clinical trial results can form an evidence base for vaccine practice recommendations.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24680600

@ Orac's minions (i.e., the Borg),

Why is there a disconnect?

By Michael J. Dochniak (not verified) on 08 Aug 2015 #permalink

Lighthorse, I suspected she probably had a DIY black salve formula. I'm kind of surprised it doesn't have tea tree oil in it, since it seems to be regarded as a panacea by the alt types.
You can find similar recipes on eHow, where everyone claims to be a professional writer, but one actually knows anything (with notable exceptions, including "our" Rene Najera, who authored perhaps the only accurate article on tetanus).

For someone who worries about aluminum, Tietje sure is free with the bentonite.

I mean, does Katesie even really know the difference between the dermis and the epidermis?

Presumably she does not have tattoos.

What I find a bit puzzling, is why antivaccine-loonies have no problem whatsoever believing scientists on their word when they identify a particular health hazard (e.g. formaldehyde), but absolutely refuse to listen to these exact same scientists when the latter specify *how much* of it is dangerous. I find this rather insulting to both scientists and science -- because it clearly demonstrates that scientific information is cherry-picked and abused to support unscientific opinions.

Mrs. Tietje once again demonstrates this with her finishing statement, demanding that anyone challenging her points should provide proper scientific evidence for their counter-arguments. So, mrs. Tietje, where is /your/ scientific evidence? Where are all those children with 'vaccine-damage' or even vaccine-caused death? I've been looking for these children in medical records, population statistics and the VAERS database, among other things -- yet it seems to be nigh impossible to identify even ONE such case in scientific/medical .literature. So where are they? So far, the only ones claiming to have seen these children are antivaccinationists and parents of children unlucky enough to fall sick shortly after being vaccinated-- and we're just supposed to take their word for it? Where's the science in *that*? Why, they might just as well claim to have a pink unicorn lurking in their garage ...

I tried to get more information about KT as the MAM website contained bio links that didn't work so I found her older katetietje.com site ( 2012):

she's about 30 now and ( adding things together from both sites) has FIVE children.. They are quite Christian. She homeschools - "un-schools"- her children and is a former music teacher ( she doesn't mention if she is a university educated teacher or a more artistic one e.g. working at a business location/ private classes in home after gaining expertise)

In 2012, they were seeking out a 10 acre farm in central Ohio where they would grow a garden, keep chickens and cows for dairy and beef. They want to live 'sustainably' green.
She cooks 'traditional foods' and creates ' home remedies'.

I imagine that she's one of those creatures who read woo-tinged tomes and websites and then branch out on their own to write and sell books for fun and profit.
UN-education indeed!

We've seen this phenomenon before with anti-vaxxers who study fol de rol and then create their own. ( AoA/ TMR/ LKH are practitioners of this non-art)

Years ago, nearly everyone's grandmother and/ or mother had home remedies** ( self-care really) but didn't make a big deal out of it. It was general knowledge not arcane magic that could be sold.

** my grandmothers- separately- suggested either tea or gin for most ills that didn't require a professional.
I usually agree.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 08 Aug 2015 #permalink

See in my family it was tea, brandy, bourbon or creme d' menthe depending on the ill.

Brandy or bourbon was usually hot either straight up or in fresh made hot lemonade with a cinnamon stick.

My Mom did have one healthcare professional recommend a dark beer with every meal, but she lost a lot of weight during of those "harmless childhood illnesses" she caught from her kids as she missed only that one during her own childhood.

Denice Walter@72

In other anti-vax news..

If we're going off topic, how about this bit of genius over at NaturalNews:

Politifact knows nothing about chemistry or biology
...
Globally recognized expert on mercury toxicity and mercury detoxification, Dr. Chris Shade, explained in an interview with Natural News that inorganic mercury (which includes ethyl mercury) is actually far more dangerous at the cellular level as it kills much more quickly. [emphasis mine]

Bwahhahahaha! Pot, kettle, etc.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 08 Aug 2015 #permalink

@ capnkrunch:

We can be OT today as there is no new post plus I usually re-iterate Dan's weekend detritus. Someone has to do that.

Actually, I did look at NN today wherein Mike rhapsodises politically as he has been recently displaying his poor taste and judgment as well.
I usually don't read his associates' crap as his crap alone is quite enough in of itself.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 08 Aug 2015 #permalink

Denice Walter@81

We can be OT today as there is no new post plus I usually re-iterate Dan’s weekend detritus. Someone has to do that.

And we appreciate that you save us the trouble of having to visit AoA ourselves.

Actually, I did look at NN today wherein Mike rhapsodises politically as he has been recently displaying his poor taste and judgment as well.

The Trump article? Or did you see the one he just posted (sometime between my last comment and now) where calls compensating public figures to appear in pro-vaccination public health campaigns "bribery" and speculates that Senator Pan was bribed by drug companies to introduce SB 277?

I usually don’t read his associates’ crap as his crap alone is quite enough in of itself.

But Mikey has put together such a world class team. You're doing yourself a disservice.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 08 Aug 2015 #permalink

I see everything.

I don't REGULARLY read every piece there.

Occasionally I DO read articles by Huff, Bundrant ( mental health), Benson, Heyes.. they're the top echelon of crap.

I monitor daily:
AoA, TMR, Jake's cesspit, NN, PRN and listen to the crème de la merde, Null's Show as linked at his woo-begone site.

I occasionally make forays into other anti-vax dens of refuse that show up in the aforementioned dreck or trash Orac mentions.

Someone has to do it. And since I am startingly immune to ill effects despite reading- and hearing- loads of unmitigated garbage, it might as well be me.

But thank the ( non-existent) lord for intoxicants.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 08 Aug 2015 #permalink

@NotaTroll-thank you for your kind wishes. I have a life of good days and bad days and a body that has limitations and doesn't like stress. Today is better than yesterday, so there is still (ick) more packing and moving.

@palindrome- you are right. I believe this was an independent midwife. Some states don't have laws limiting who can practice and how. A CNMW in a obstetrics practice is a different (and usually very safe) option vs. a crunchy midwife that prefers homeopathy and herbal medicine to science.

The practice that I used for my son 17 years ago had a CNMW on staff and she had an attending OB at the same hospital (no homebirth). She had quick back up if emergency c-section was required, etc. I am not against certified midwives... against states that don't certify or have standards and people who eschew medical advice as dangerous and do their best to convince others of the same.

She homeschools – “un-schools”- her children

It's quite horrifying to imagine children having their education provided by someone like Tietjeke.

"...like measles through a Waldorf School."

Going to steal that one.

By Dan Andrews (not verified) on 08 Aug 2015 #permalink

@ DGR:

Right. She even has posts about
'de-schooling'.
I've done the math: she's 30 and has been married for 9 years.
So it is -unfortunately-entirely possible that she has a degree in teaching or music altho' she never says so.

-btw- Mike Adams has a degree. So has Kim S, Dan O and many of those we read and shake our heads disapprovingly.

Another woo-meister says we should discourage kids from getting degrees- we should un-school them.
Right, more customers for him.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 08 Aug 2015 #permalink

so HAVE Kim....

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 08 Aug 2015 #permalink

# 80 capnkrunch

“inorganic mercury” now there is a striking phrase. Can I grow organic mercury in the garden?

“ethyl mercury” is inorganic. Well yes of course it is if you use the inorganic carbon that Mikey was complaining about somewhere around a year ago. Clearly he did not read the Wiki article carefully enough. Apparently C != C in some cases.

By jrkrideau (not verified) on 08 Aug 2015 #permalink

"...scrubbing the road rash with a stiff brush (which was an “ow-ie!” even on morphine), and putting a nice dressing on it."

Speaking of nice dressings*, Panera is now promoting their no-artificial-ingredients salad dressings, by telling us that "nature doesn't need a lab" and "we just think all-natural tastes better".

Wonder then why a fuss was made when metal shavings were found in Panera food and problems traced to one of their plants where welding was going on in the food processing area and dough was stored in dirty containers? Dirt and metal are natural too.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2009-07-26/business/0907240455_1_foo…

At least the salad dressings are now pure. Gotta love modern marketing.

*how's _that_ for a classy segue?

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 08 Aug 2015 #permalink

jrkrideau@89

“inorganic mercury” now there is a striking phrase. Can I grow organic mercury in the garden?

Only if you live in a temperate climate.

Surprisingly, my comment on NN pointing out that the ethyl group in fact makes ethyl mercury an organomercury compount didn't get approved.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 08 Aug 2015 #permalink

Globally recognized expert on mercury toxicity and mercury detoxification, Dr. Chris Shade

"Globally recogniszed expert" turns out to be a term of art meaning "Unqualified grifter working hard to promote his shonky mercury-testing service and chelation products".

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 08 Aug 2015 #permalink

“Globally recogniszed expert” turns out to be a term of art meaning “Unqualified grifter working hard to promote his shonky mercury-testing service and chelation products”.

Oh, right; I failed to associate the name with the company, which has come up before.

@Denise Walter #83

I see everything

For your sake, I hope you don't.

By Lighthorse (not verified) on 08 Aug 2015 #permalink

"Globally recognised", whenever I read it at NN, always sounds like a euphemism for "Photograph is displayed on police noticeboards in multiple countries".

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 08 Aug 2015 #permalink

Jrkrideau,
For a small consideration, i will send you heirloom gmo free organic mercury seeds

Dangerous @90 --- A very classy segue indeed.

But you're still not allowed to ride it on the sidewalk, I don't care if you're a mall cop.

By palindrom (not verified) on 08 Aug 2015 #permalink

@ Lighthorse:

Unfortunately I do see everything which frequently includes bad art, bad shoes** and food arranged vertically- which, luckily, was only pictured on a menu.
And cube-ish looking cars.

** I saw the most atrocious pair of Jimmy Choo black open toed, small platform spike heels which would make me about 6 ' tall.
5' 9 or 10 I could actually handle but 6 ' is just insane.

I grudgingly admire the youngsters who wear them.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 08 Aug 2015 #permalink

He seems quite thrilled that the Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders ran his and Blaxill’s “commentary” in their most recent issue.

Indeed they did. It's atrociously written, but what he omitted from his AoA entry is that it's a response to this. Shpringer has dorked around with their XML, so I might not get to them tonight, as it were.

^ Actually, the number hasn't been paginated yet, so it hasn't been "run" in an "issue" yet, but whatever.

The ominous final grafentence:

This timing remains the essential clue to the disorder: Something happened to bring a new condition to the attention of child psychiatry.

^^ "Sentegraph"?

Why, yes, someone did say "classy segue".

That's a wonderfully weird image, Herr Doktor.

By palindrom (not verified) on 09 Aug 2015 #permalink

She does have a nice lemon-poppyseed waffle recipe on her site, though.

@ Narad:

Dan seems insistent about Kanner, doesn't he?

The post has attracted the usual lot but I am especially awestruck by Lisa who ponders the relationship between autism, childhood schizophrenia and schizophrenia /methylation and GFCF diets. Etc.

Diets to affect SMI, who would have thought!! How novel!

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 09 Aug 2015 #permalink

From what I have gathered reading about KT, she taught piano. That is the extent of her music teaching. I have never seen her mention any music education degree or certification of any type, nor have I seen her lay claim to having any sort of college degree. She may yet have such credentials and chooses not to share their existence.

By Mcpforever (not verified) on 09 Aug 2015 #permalink

To Natural New's credit they published my comment once I removed the insults from it. To their discredit their post still claims ethyl mercury is inorganic.

Meg@105
I was thinking the same thing. If nothing else those crunchy types tend to some good recipes.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 09 Aug 2015 #permalink

Mikey's newest whipping boy is Dr Pan. ( NN, today)

We should do something about this although I'm not sure what.... Anyone have ideas?

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 09 Aug 2015 #permalink

It has been posted all over Dr. Pan's Facebook page.....

I'm probably going to chuckle immaturely over the term listicle for another five to ten minutes or so.

Tee hee.

By Von Krieger (not verified) on 09 Aug 2015 #permalink

It has been posted all over Dr. Pan’s Facebook page…..

Hilarious.

Mike's supporters are such feebs.

I really enjoyed these comments from the "Richard Pan caught lying" story.

Mike Adams should run for President.. as an independent

Note to Mike: I think several browsers are blocking the Natural News website.

Dr Pan lied by saying "Vaccine-injury is not a term that we use. It's only used by the opposition [to SB277]." That is a lie because in 1986 the US government set up the vaccine-injury compensation program, so that term has been in use for 29 years.

Oddly enough, the author (brothersun) of the last quote seems to have misquoted Dr. Pan, who in fact said "So, the term vaccine injury, is a term used by the opposition. It’s not a technical term that we use in the medical field.

You have to chuckle at someone who misquotes an individual then uses the misquote to call the individual a liar.

At any rate, judging by the number of comments, Mike's fans are far more concerned by the "Fox News debate fraud" mistreatment of the Donald than they are about Pan.

As one particularly bright light mentions:

So much for fair and balanced! I showed me how far FOX has fallen!

At any rate, Mike will probably drop the Pan thing soon and turn his focus to the run for the presidency thing his fans are demanding.

So much for fair and balanced! I showed me how far FOX has fallen!

That's the funniest thing I've read all day!

By palindrom (not verified) on 09 Aug 2015 #permalink

Hilariously enough, Mikey fancies himself an opinion leader in politics as well as in altmed.To disseminate his storied views, he's launched a news site that breaks sources into independent vs mainstream ( Fetch) of course, featuring his own swill -and related swill- first and foremost . There's also his 'independent' search engine, Good Gopher.

As I've observed concerning the other idiot's activities ( at PRN) the audience is cultivated to imagine most institutions to be vile and corrupt following endless rants that *investigate* these evils; the news itself is compromised and 'bought' therefore alternative news can enlighten those poor lost souls who can then mend the error of their thought. This superlative information service is provided humbly and truthfully by the head honcho - who works tirelessly, endangering himself because of his rebellious views- and who should then be rewarded for his reportage and honesty with ...
CUSTOMERS for his products.

IMNSHO, these fellows may spout off to attract an audience who may then buy their products BUT being erroneously convinced of their own superior intellect, they probably believe that they ARE educating and enlightening people.

I don't think that they intentionally keep discourse at such an abysmally low level in order to attract less savvy, unquestioning followers but I think what we see may be very close to their own level.
Of course, tarted up with science- sounding words and 'quantum' every now and then , but their own level nevertheless.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 09 Aug 2015 #permalink

I like how they always bring up the point that (insert "toxic" chemical here) is OK if you eat it, but injecting it is different, because the digestive system has ways of shutting that whole thing down. But when it comes to combating disease, they always recommend eating things. Wouldn't the digestive system stop those things from having any effect, too?

AlisonM@115
But but but your body's natural innate immune gut intelligence.

Doesn't even compare to being injected directly into the bloodstream (via the muscles).

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 09 Aug 2015 #permalink

Wouldn’t the digestive system stop those things from having any effect, too?

You are expecting consistency from anti-vaccine thinking?

I suspect this is where you are going wrong.

For your perverse entertainemt...

Guaranteeing Orac and his minions an endless supply of nonsense, Mikey announces today that

NaturalNews will link to over 100 "indy media sites" that will educate and enlighten you: Fukushima Watch.com, GLITCH.news and Top 10 Grocery Secrets amongst them, all neatly indexed in Good Gopher.com and Fetch.news.

I can hardly wait.

There's even insider cache-
although they " welcome independent media authors" you need to KNOW someone who already knows how to contact "upper management" at NN- they won't tell you.

So don't think you can just write anything and get it published by Mikey. NO NO NO! You need to know someone close to him or HIM. I guess that illustrates how truly independent his projects are.

Still, I wish one of my fellow or sister minions would BREAK THE CODE!

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 10 Aug 2015 #permalink

One thing that puzzles me about the "injected is bad but in food is okay" argument is that they apply it even to formaldehyde -- which your body manufactures. I'd love to see them come up with an argumetn for why the stuff that *starts out* in the blood is okay, but the stuff injected isn't. Maybe they'll finally start paying attention to the "intramuscular" part and start arguing that makes it more toxic?

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 10 Aug 2015 #permalink

I showed me how far FOX has fallen!

Not that it had very far to fall, mind you.

You can't make up stories like this...**

"" Ex-Merck employee turned anti-vaccine activist...."
( Julie Wilson In Natural News, today)

"...Black Ops branch of Big Pharma is real, and its hired assassins will go to great lengths, including murder..."

" Natural News' Mike Adams is no stranger to threats and intimidation tactics, as he's been on the receiving end of many, which is why he never leaves the house unarmed"

(But no Fat Man in a Tiny Yellow Car, that's so 1980s)

Yes, altmed Truth Tellers are being targetted so they're packing heat.

Alright, shay, 'fess up: we know that you know your way around covert ops.

-btw- do these people re-read what they wrote or do they just send it off to Mikey as it rolls out of their fever dreams?

** although she just did

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 10 Aug 2015 #permalink

Alright, shay, ‘fess up: we know that you know your way around covert ops.

My sisters are convinced I do, but I have no idea why. One of them is sureI was complicit in the cyber attack on the Iranian nuclear program (I'm quite serious).

I was in communications-electronics FCOL. I never even once got to jump out of an airplane.

@ Denice Walter #119, I know you're joking, and I am not a minion, but I could probably get in through Mr. Stone without too much effort; he's over at Dr. Healy's blog a fair amount.

But to what end? I don't have the intellectual capacity to write an article (documented cognitive issues) and whatever I would write, they'd just throw into the virtual trash bucket.

TOT: No planes, but I think I could have participated in practice jumps (from platforms) with the Army Rangers while in the Reserves. All I had to do was watch them - anyone watching them is "invited" join them. Never did happen but I did get helicopter rides. They were a blast and if they really are very dangerous as a helicopter mechanic once told me; I don't care. I wouldn't mind dying in one of them. They are that much fun.

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 10 Aug 2015 #permalink

@ Not a Troll:

Truly there are a few minions who could probably Sokal Adams very well

.I most likely could create a faux synopsis of 'research' that *proves" that spirituality is a by-product of extraterrestrial CNS implants that run on serotonin and opiates.

"So we always look to the skies....in awe"...
"stoned, immaculate" (that last one was Morrison, not me)

At any rate, I hope that someone does. sokal him.

.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 10 Aug 2015 #permalink

Wrong thread? But I agree on the weasel.

Black Ops branch of Big Pharma is real, and its hired assassins will go to great lengths, including murder

Seems like kind of an entry-level qualification.

Well, if anybody is motivated to disturb a few electrons, you can put yourself on the list of people supporting Senator Richard Pan, MD against the recall. You don't have to live in his district or in California. You don't even have to like or know about his politics -- just that you don't like the idea of a politician facing a recall vote because people dislike one, just one, of the laws he sponsored.

(He authored or co-authored 30 bills this year. )

http://www.keepdrpan.com/stand_with_dr_pan

Australian article from a few months ago that popped up in my Facebook feed,that I never saw before.

“Most of us original hippies are pro-vaccine because we are old enough to remember the epidemics of polio that would come around,” the 63-year-old said.

“Mum wouldn’t let us go to the pool or to the movies or anywhere where there was a public gathering. Kids would just go missing from school and turned up months later in callipers, or blind or mentally impaired and some would die.

“And the scientists that developed the vaccines were celebrities, people would drive for days and queues for the polio vaccine were miles long.”

But somewhere along the line, the distrust of government that spurred the hippie movement post the Vietnam War has morphed into a distrust of science, doctors and vaccines.

That distrust has led to the area having one of the lowest vaccination rates in Australia.

“They are also complacent, because they haven’t seen it, we have a 46 per cent vaccination rate, it’s lower than Sudan,” she said.

These parents put blind faith in Mother Nature and good nutrition as the ultimate immune protection, she said.

Nimbin hippie Sue Rodger-Withers promoting child vaccination

By Roger Kulp (not verified) on 10 Aug 2015 #permalink

Im interested in people who actually died from some adverse vaccine reaction, and what biological process actually occurred inside their body and the mystery it presents to science to discover how why and what happened to cause life to cease for that unique individual and why such extremely rare incidences occur whether its genetics or the artificial stimulation of the immune system, i dont believe its from toxic so called 'trace ammounts' of poisonous substances, humans survived hiroshima, i suspect its something to do with artificially triggering the immunilogical response in ones who die and some underlying autoimmune vulnerability. I wish they would intensely study the people who die from vaccines and autopsy them and biopsy their organs in freezers so we can perfect vaccine medicine and/or genetically pre test vaccine vulnerable individuals to prevent negative publicity and make vaccines 100 percent popular. Until this process is resolved unfortunately mystery surrounds some who died and as Machiavelli said "the rest become afraid". And besides its just a damned interesting mystery why some die and that what science is about delving into the unknown.

By steven mcclure (not verified) on 10 Aug 2015 #permalink

I wish they would intensely study the people who die from vaccines

I wish they would intensely study those rectal-probing aliens. The little grey bastards, I'm sick of them.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 11 Aug 2015 #permalink

Steve Mcclure #134
The NSW Coroners Act, other legislation, ethics and religious beliefs govern autopsies - and otherwise well children under 10 who die have their deaths scrutinised by the Coroner.
Vaccine-related deaths are usually caused by anaphylaxis - an overwhelming allergic response where the immune system goes into overdrive. We know about this. We can't predict it, and you can have an anaphylactic reaction to anything you ingest, inhale or touch. Thankfully, though, it is very rare.
Vaccine reactions are reportable/reported in Australia, and they are studied. A lot of that study is ongoing, it's not a static field by any means.

This is deliciously spot-on:

http://crunchychristianmommy.com/about-crunchy-christian-mommy/

Hi everyone! I’m Jenny, the Crunchy Christian Mommy, and this is my blog! Here I discus a variety of topics, from natural home remedies, to vaccine truths! How do I know so much about this stuff? Because I have credentials!! Here’s more about me!

I am a mommy to several children, 3 we adopted from Africa, and I plan on having as many as Jesus will give me!
We love Jesus! Do you? No? Go away.
We love to help non-crunchy moms learn how to live the right way!
We recycle (but we’re not environmentalists, the Bible is against that)
We DO NOT EVER eat anything that’s made with scary words that make us feel scared!
TV? No! Mainstream media? No way Jose! Wake up like we did, Sheeple! We get all our info from credible blogs and YouTube.
We run a prayer charity from our home. We produce over 1,000 prayers per month for starving children in Africa!
We homeschool! I prepared for my role as my kids teacher by reading lots of blogs about it!
Vaccine, Schmaccine! Who needs vaccines when you have elderberries and Jesus?
As you can tell, I’m pretty special, so you should definitely be reading my blog and leaving your praises in the comments section! Jesus loves you!

I found it through this YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVlg9gLjp9E

There it is, YouTube proof that my Mommy Blog knows more than your doctor. Now go do more of your research by reading more of my blogs. Help others do their research by sharing my blog on Facebook and Twitter and Pinterest. Sharing is caring.

Liz, you know that Crunchy Christian Mommy is a spoof site, right?

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 14 Aug 2015 #permalink

Why is that whenever I see an article describing itself as 'the truth on vaccines', it is always a bunch of rants from an anti-vaxxer whacklaoon or two?

Yes, Not a Troll, I was enjoying how well CCM captured the tone of Gialoonie, Modern Alphabitch Mummy & etc.

Sia, any website or organization with "Truth," "Freedom" or "Patriot" in the title should be automatically suspect.

Even a simple case of measles with no complications can be bad. My older sister is too old to have got the mmr. She got measles, only a mild case and was better within a couple of weeks. But she got lesions in her ears (including on her eardrums) and the scar tissue has left her permanently deaf in her left ear. If uncomplicated measles can permantly destroy your hearing I shudder to think what complications could do. My kid had every vaccination available. He cried. A couple of times he got a temp layer that day. I just made sure to book that day off work so I could stay with him. Much better than the alternative. And as far as the modern versions of iron kings are concerned, my dad had pneumonia earlier this year and had to have positive pressure assistance with his breathing. It wasn't an iron lung but was still terrifying. And 8 months on he is still weak and gets out of breath easily. I wouldn't wish a vpd on anyone.