What? Removing thimerosal from vaccines caused the autism epidemic?

The blog post of mine that arguably "put me on the map" in the skeptical blogosphere was my very Insolent, very sarcastic deconstruction of Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.'s deceptive pseudoscience-ridden bit of fear mongering that he called Deadly Immunity. It was originally jointly published both by Salon.com and Rolling Stone, a blot that neither publication will ever overcome. At least Salon.com retracted the article over five years later. Rolling Stone never did, although the article is now available only to its paid subscribers.

The reason I mention this "past glory" (if you can call it that) is not to brag, but rather to point out that my earliest "splash" was achieved refuting Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.'s claim that the mercury in the thimerosal used as a preservative in childhood vaccines caused an "epidemic" of autism. It's a lie he's still flogging in 2015, partying, as I put it, like it's 1999. In other words, before I delve into my current topic, I wanted to point out that it is an article of faith among a segment of the antivaccine movement (sometimes referred to as the "mercury militia") that the primary cause of the increase in autism prevalence observed over the last 25 years is thimerosal-containing vaccines. Never mind that it is a thoroughly discredited hypothesis. Never mind that there hasn't been thimerosal in childhood vaccines other than the flu vaccine since 2002 and that there are thimerosal-free versions of that vaccine, meaning that children are exposed to less mercury from vaccines than any time since before the "autism epidemic" started. In other words, the continued increase in the prevalence of autism and autism-spectrum disorders long after the removal of thimerosal from nearly all childhood vaccinations has been the single strongest bit of evidence arguing against the hypothesis that thimerosal has anything to do with autism.

of course, leave it to a believer in quackery to turn that explanation upside down. In this case, it's Beaux Reliosis, who bills herself as a "20-year survivor of Lyme disease" whose mission is "to get the Lyme criminals prosecuted so the millions suffering can be properly diagnosed and treated." She's also the author of a post entitled The Vaccine Scientific Exemption: Not Just for Cows. The title might be puzzling to you now, but hold on. It won't be for long. Reliosis starts out with an odd story. Basically, she references a report from the MMWR Weekly from 1998 about human exposure to Brucella abortus strain RB51:

On May 26-27, 1997, nine persons (a farmer, four veterinary clinicians, and four veterinary students) in Manhattan, Kansas, participated in an attempted vaginal delivery, a cesarean delivery, and a necropsy on a stillborn calf that died because of Brucella abortus infection. The infection was confirmed by isolation of B. abortus from placental and fetal lung tissue cultures. The National Animal Disease Center, U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA), identified the B. abortus isolate from the calf as the RB51 vaccine strain. RB51 is a live, attenuated strain that was licensed conditionally by the Veterinary Services, Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service, USDA, on February 23, 1996, for vaccination of cattle in the United States.

So basically, in 1997 somehow a calf died of an infection that was due to the vaccine strain of B. abortus. The humans who had been exposed took a prophylactic course of doxycycline, and none of them showed signs of infection by the vaccine strain of B. abortus. So why focus on a disease of cows? Here's why:

Recap: Pregnant cow gets vaccine. Unborn calf gets the disease that the vaccine was supposed to prevent. Calf is stillborn; heifer is euthanized. Everyone involved in the surgery is treated with antibiotics for fear they also will contract the disease. Says the CDC.

Are they killing vaccine-injured people in California yet?

I can hear the vaccine rah-rah crowd saying, oh, but that’s in COWS. That couldn’t possibly happen with people. People are not cows.

Yes, "vaccine shedding" is a common myth among antivaccinationists. Any live attenuated vaccine, to hear them tell it, can lead to shedding and endanger people around them. It's a convenient myth that allows antivaccinationist to falsely portray the vaccinated as spreading disease just as much, if not more, then their unvaccinated children. So why did she bring this up? I ask this because her story of the calf has nothing to do with what comes next, although what comes next is just as off-base:

In 2001, “except for influenza (flu), thimerosal is removed from or reduced in all vaccines routinely recommended for children 6 years of age and under manufactured for the U.S. market.” http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/thimerosal/timeline.html

Which is the worst, stupidest thing our government could possibly have done.

Thimerosal was put in vaccines to prevent fungal growth in the vial. Fungal contamination leads to immunosuppression, which results in the reactivation or activation of the very viruses the vaccines are intended to prevent. Many of these viruses are known to be neurotropic and to interfere with neurodevelopment. It is glaringly obvious that this is the reason for the autism epidemic, and probably SIDS, ADHD and childhood cancers.

The CDC certainly knows that this vaccine-induced brain damage is going on. They most certainly are aware of this mechanism, since it is proven by their own data.

See why this post caught my attention? Here I've been hearing for more than a decade, since even before RFK, Jr.'s dishonest conspiracy mongering fear piece, that thimerosal is the root of all evil, that it's the cause of autism, neurodevelopmental disorders, tics, and all maner of problems. Yet here we have an antivaccinationist claiming that taking thimerosal out of vaccines was the "stupidest thing our government could possibly have done." Even more riotously laugh- and cringe-inducingly, she based it on experience in a cow with a live attenuated virus vaccine. Here's a hint: Thimerosal was never in live attenuated virus vaccines, because it kills the virus.

When it comes to quacks, there is a tendency to want to make like physicists and come up with a "grand unified theory" of all disease. We see this in Robert O. Young, who believes that cancer, AIDS, and all disease are caused by "excess acid." We also see it in Hulda Clark, who blamed cancer, AIDS, and—yes—all diseases on a liver fluke. We see it in the "chronic candida" crowd, who blame all manner of symptoms and chronic illness on chronic infection with candida albicans, a fungus. In this latter case, it's true that humans can be infected with candida. However, in the absence of significant immunosuppression such infections are usually superficial and rarely serious. And let's not forget Morgellon's disease, in which some sort of "fibers" (which have never been proven to be anything more than clothing fibers) are blamed for all manner of symptoms.

Then there's chronic Lyme disease, which is arguably the granddaddy of them all when it comes to being The One True Cause of all illness. There is, of course, no such thing as chronic Lyme disease, but that doesn't stop a large number of people from blaming their vague, nonspecific symptoms to chronic Lyme, from a veritable army of quacks from coming up with a cornucopia of quackery to treat it (and a sad number of real doctors treating it with prolonged courses of antibiotics), and legislators from pandering to these patients and quacks by passing laws to protect the quacks from consequences due to their quackery.

So it's not surprising that this "Beaux Reliosis" tries to fold the causes of autism and Lyme disease into one large mass of "fungal-viral damage." What does she base this idea on? It's some pretty thin gruel, scientifically speaking:

III. Thimerosal is put in vaccines to prevent fungi because they help activate viruses via immunosuppression, and inhibition of apoptosis of fungally infected B cells in particular.

2012, Dec, NYTimes; Doctors admit Thimerosal is put in vaccines to prevent fungi:

Vaccine Rule Is Said to Hurt Health Efforts
"But a proposal that the ban include thimerosal, which has been used since the 1930s to prevent bacterial and fungal contamination in multidose vials of vaccines, has drawn strong criticism from pediatricians.... They say that the ethyl-mercury compound is critical for vaccine use in the developing world, where multidose vials are a mainstay...Banning it would require switching to single-dose vials for vaccines, which would cost far more and require new networks of cold storage facilities and additional capacity for waste disposal, the authors of the articles said.'" http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/health/experts-say-thimerosal-ban-would-imperil-global-health- efforts.html

OK, so thimerosal prevents fungal contamination. There's nothing new there, and there's nothing that any scientist would deny. of course, that's what preservatives are for: To prevent the growth of microorganisms, including fungus, in multidose vials! That's the purpose of any preservative used in multidose vials of any medicine! The shocking thing would be if thimerosal didn't inhibit the growth of fungus. If that were the case, it'd be pretty useless as a preservative.

Not surprisingly, Beaux Reliosis then goes on to do a bit of ranting about pharma, but it's so beside the point that I don't want to dwell on it. It is, as I like to say, background noise. Instead, she goes on to go full Godwin:

Choice is what makes the top cops in the country look away from the blatant evidence of neurologic injury from contaminated vaccines. The DOJ chooses to let us suffer and our children continue to be maimed.

Choice is also what we the people will use to exert our scientific exemption over Nazi-style forced vaccination. The scientific exemption, the proof that fungal contamination in vaccines causes autism, cannot be taken away from us.

Do you think there would be autistic cows if they didn’t just kill them before the calves developed symptoms?

I'll admit that when I first came across this post I had higher hopes for it. I thought that there might be a coherent idea behind it, even if that idea was very wrong. What I got instead was a series of very wrong ideas but not even coherently presented. I must admit that I was a bit disappointed. When I was done reading this, all I could ask was: That's it? That's the best she could come up with? I mean, seriously. Her idea is that fungus causes autism and therefore removing thimerosal from vaccines led to an epidemic of fungus-caused autism. It's as though she doesn't realize that, in place of thimerosal-containing multidose vials, vaccines were made available in single dose vials, which actually lessen the chances of fungal contamination compared to multidose vials, even those containing thimerosal.

Oh, well. It was entertaining while it lasted. Too bad it turned out to be even less than I had expected.

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This feels like the goalposts have been moved so far as to go all the way around the globe to hit us in the back of our heads.

I don't see any mention of the one vaccine that was used (briefly in the lase 90's to early 00's--market demand was not high so production was stopped) for Lyme disease--LymeRix. To further highlight how far out of the plane of the galaxy this person is, "Beaux Reliosis" claims that "Everyone with Lyme disease got LymeRix" (http://badlymeattitude.com/2015/10/29/occams-razor-all-we-have-are-dull…)., citing some bizarre thinking about fungal blebs containing the OspA surface protein of the Lyme disease bacteria.

LymeRix did not have thimerosal (it came in single dose vials), so why didn't "Beaux Reliosis" implicate LymeRix as causative for autism?

By Chris Hickie (not verified) on 07 Dec 2015 #permalink

Her idea is that fungus causes autism and therefore removing thimerosal from vaccines led to an epidemic of fungus-caused autism. It’s as though she doesn’t realize that, in place of thimerosal-containing multidose vials, vaccines were made available in single dose vials, which actually lessen the chances of fungal contamination compared to multidose vials, even those containing thimerosal.

That.
There was a recent case last May in Mexico of vaccine contamination by some nasty opportunistic bug.
The results were quite noticeable, in a tragic way, with two children dead.

So I am also a bit skeptical of the hypothesis of fungi-tainted vaccines causing autism and not much else. What, no-one is noticing the occasional vaccine vial turning blue or bursting with some grey stuff?

The stuff about the fungi "re-activating" the dead virus in the vaccine is "walking dead" science.

There is also the whole idea of virus-based vaccines made so poorly that they come from the factory with fungal contamination.
Again, it's not impossible; but fungal contamination in the context of biological products tend be become obvious quickly. If the contamination occurs in (or moves up to) the cell culture step of the virus production, there will simply be no virus produced, because the fungi will have taken over.
And fungi in your cell culture are very noticeable. The smell can not be ignored.

OK, I'm over-analyzing stuff again and trying to make sense of the sayings of someone who doesn't have much sense to begin with.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 07 Dec 2015 #permalink

Removing thimerosal from vaccines caused the autism epidemic may sound incredible, but I believe the power of genomics technology.

That looks suspiciously like spam.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

So when it comes to LLMD's and doctors who treat "Lyme" disease the reason that they are somewhat a waste of time is that they are missing critical pieces of understanding. They treat "Lyme" disease as if it were just an infection, they assume the wrong dominant pathogen and they treat with something that never really worked that well to begin with. Apoptosis is the method your immune system uses to kill cancer cells and Mutated cells. "Lyme" disease shuts down apoptosis and you need to turn that back on.
http://www.townsendletter.com/July2009/ed_lyme0709.html
.

“The knowledge base about both Bartonella testing and treatment borders on the disastrous. Bartonella is one of the most common infections in the world. Calling it a "coinfection" is nonsense; if anything, Lyme is the "coinfection." It is found in vast numbers of common vectors, including dust mites, fleas, flea feces, pet saliva, and ticks. Amazingly, it can turn off or lower antibodies to Lyme disease, Babesia, Ehrlichia, Anaplasma, and even itself. Bartonella floats in blood and also enters all blood vessel walls without causing a fatal fever, and indeed actually lowers fevers. It is the ultimate stealth infection. It turns off antibodies, fevers, and immune function defense chemicals as it damages organs in 20 to 60 ways.”

.

http://www.pnas.org/content/99/7/4656.full

.

"Bartonella-associated endothelial proliferation depends on inhibition of apoptosis"

.

http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Bartonella_henselae

.
“Bartonella are the only bacteria able to produce angiogenic tumors in humans, very much like the Agrobacterium species that produce tumors in plants”

. Angiogenisis is when a tumor creates it’s own blood supply by growing blood vessels. These newly formed blood vessels are a result of a genetically induced growth caused by Bartonella changing human DNA.

.

http://www.pnas.org/content/108/35/14643.abstract

.

“Conjugative DNA transfer into human cells by the VirB/VirD4 type IV secretion system of the bacterial pathogen Bartonella henselae.”

Now since Bartonella is the driving pathogen in lyme disease and since it causes mutated cells you need to restore apoptosis but LLMD’s haven’t even got anything that is efficient in removing the infection.

.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23090599

.

“we actually never had antibiotics capable of eradicating an infection. All pathogens produce a small subpopulation of dormant persister cells that are highly tolerant to killing by antibiotics. Once an antibiotic concentration drops, surviving persisters re-establish the population, causing a relapsing chronic infection.”

.

But I do. www.lyme-morgellons.com

The scientific exemption, the proof that fungal contamination in vaccines causes autism, cannot be taken away from us.

The nuttiest part of this is that despite a large chunk of the anti-vax brigade being firmly convinced that it is mercury in vaccines that causes autism, they will fall in behind this idea as well.

If it is not the thimerosal, it is the aluminium, it is the measles virus in the MMR, no it is too many too soon, no it is the lack of thimerosal, and so on it goes. It is always the vaccines.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

fungally infected B cells in particular

OK, I'm quite tired, but I'm still pretty sure that's not how it works.

fungally infected B cells in particular

OK, I’m quite tired, but I’m still pretty sure that’s not how it works.

You could have chosen any other statement at random and correctly made the same comment.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

On the topic of not noticing the wood for the trees, AoA has a post by Ronald Kostoff, who notices that non-infectious diseases have replaced infectious diseases as the main causes of death. Apparently, this is a BAD THING. Kostoff blames, the synergy on man-made causes, viz: vaccines, EMF, glyphosate ingestion and nitrosomines synergise together to produce autism.

Kostoff fails to recognise that as people no longer die as readily from infectious diseases, they live longer and die from other diseases.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

Just goes to show you that anti-vaxers can bend so far backwards to justify their beliefs that they'll even adopt diametrically-opposed positions, but still think their own the same side....

It’s as though she doesn’t realize that, in place of thimerosal-containing multidose vials, vaccines were made available in single dose vials, which actually lessen the chances of fungal contamination compared to multidose vials, even those containing thimerosal.

Pretty sure this is exactly it. In their delusional world thimerosal is so central that they don't realize it isn't ubiquitous in reality land. I can't tell if she's under the impression that all medications contain preservatives or that we still use multidose MMR just without the thimerosal.

Either way it's stupid and betrays a fundamental failure to comprehend why multidose vials contain preservatives and single dose ones don't. As Helianthus said in #3 it's not as though vaccines are manufactured in the same poor conditions that supplements are.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

There was a recent case last May in Mexico of vaccine contamination by some nasty opportunistic bug.

IIRC, there was no contamination; it was crappy technique (but no reuse of needles).

@ Narad

Yes, it seems to be. My recollection of the events was incomplete.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

Just how does one diagnose an “autistic cow”?

By jrkrideau (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

I have a feeling Tristan Wells would be doing some head-banging over the fungus-causes-autism hypothesis (excuse me, the "glaringly obvious" conclusion).

NO NO NO! You never say any infectious disease causes autism! That plays right into the pro-vaxers hands! It's the TOXINS, dummy!!!

That's No. 1 in the antivax playbook, fer chrissake.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

"Just goes to show you that anti-vaxers can bend so far backwards to justify their beliefs that they’ll even adopt diametrically-opposed positions, but still think their own the same side…."

This reminds me of a study's conclusion that conspiracy theorists holding the position that Princess Diana faked her own death are more likely to believe she was killed by the royal family.

If a pro and an anti thimerosal anti-vaxxer were locked in a room for a day, would they just end up supporting each others opinion as strongly as their own? Or would they meet in the middle and agree a tiny bit of thimerosal is a good idea?

By Rational Bee (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

@ Narad

And thanks for your emphasis on #9. I kept reading "agonist" as "antagonist" and missing the insanity of the sentence, until I forced my brain to slowly decipher the bold part.

From the linked article's summary:

Interaction of FHA with TLR2 suggests its involvement in induction of the innate immune system against Bordetella pertussis. The TLR2-binding domain of FHA may contribute to immunoprotection against pertussis infection.

Did she ever read it?
I know it's full of plenty big sciency words, but seriously.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

Just how does one diagnose an “autistic cow”?

Isn't it obvious? It mostly stands around eating and says "moo" occasionally.

Chris Hickie -- Kudos for "just how far out of the plane of the Galaxy".

By palindrom (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

Just how does one diagnose an “autistic cow”?

This is just a WAG on my part, but somebody may be looking for a justification for cow tipping.

By Eric Lund (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

Fungal infections causes immunocompromised status? That is news to me, seems that the surge in fungal infections in particular is the rise of therapies that lead to an impaired immune system or disease states that do. Not vice versa.

Just nutty.

Ha ha ha!
FOR ( frigging( YEARS I've been joking that because the autism rates rose tremendously AFTER they removed Thimerisol perhaps it was protective.
I was making fun of them. They're serious. Oy.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

Whilst I'm here:
AoA is discussing Orac's interaction @ RI with David Foster about Thompson.

A person is measured by the quality of his or her enemies but I still think Orac is excellent.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

@ Eric Lund

This is just a WAG on my part, but somebody may be looking for a justification for cow tipping.

Maybe Ms Rellosis is into applied kinesiology. Try tipping a cow. If you succeed, it is autistic.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

Cow tipping is a form of bullying.

Oh wait.. cows LIKE bulls.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

(Long-time lurker here; I love this blog.)

I think I've figured it out! We were first bombarded with thimerosal in all the vaccines, which caused autism. But then, humans evolved to become dependent on thimerosal (as we all know, mercury evolution happens really fast). So then, when the thimerosal was removed, it was like a heroin addict quitting cold-turkey. So what we need is a methadone equivalent for thimerosal.

Makes as much sense as autistic cows...

By Brian Bruce (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

@Helianthus,

Try tipping a cow. If you succeed, it is autistic.

If you succeed, you may be a drunk college freshman.

Live organism vaccines never had thimerosal in them (they can't because it would kill the live organism so it couldn't elicit an immune response.)

The idea that the vaccine that cows receive to vaccinate against Brucella abortus contained thimerosal is simply not correct. Thimerosal is never used in live-agent vaccines.

Therefore the idea that removing thimerosal from vaccines somehow allowed for fungal infections to facilitate reactivation of attenuated vaccine strains cannot be correct because thimerosal only accompanied killed agent vaccines.

By daedalus2u (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

There may not be autistic cows, but there are certainly dummy foals (equine neonatal maladjustment syndrome.) I'm pretty sure vaccines, with or without thimerosol, have nothing to do with it. As for cow tipping.....ah, the memories.

If a pro and an anti thimerosal anti-vaxxer were locked in a room for a day, would they just end up supporting each others opinion as strongly as their own? Or would they meet in the middle and agree a tiny bit of thimerosal is a good idea?

That's it! Thimerosol causes brain damage, brain damage = autism, therefore the low concentration of thimerosol in vaccines acted as a low potency homeopathic remedy for autism! Thimerosol was actually protecting children from the toxic effect of vaccines! That's why the MMR vaccine caused autism - because it didn't contain thimerosol! It's all so obvious!

I begin to see how parents end up believing such obvious nonsense - it's amazing how much sense it all makes when you're stressed out of your gourd (not that you can really compare the end-of-semester deadline stress to the stress of parenting a special needs child, obviously.)

Beaux Reliosis' post was like putting Pop Rocks in your mouth and plugging your ears.

Orac's surgical treatment of Beaux Reliosis' post was not so respectful in that not one nicety was attributed towards her effort.

@Beaux Reliosis,

Your communication (post) was passionate, creative, and PETA friendly!

By Michael J. Dochniak (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

It's that, and the plastics! Vaccines used to given with these cool glass and steel hypodermics that you had to sterilize after every use, but then someone got the bright idea to make disposable syringes out of plastic. We need more vaccines just chock full of thimerosal and delivered with non-disposable syringes!

Maybe we could make them look all steam-punky too...

/sarcasm

MJD:

@Beaux Reliosis,

Your communication (post) was passionate, creative, and PETA friendly!

PETA published adverts that claimed that milk consumption was linked to autism.
"PETA friendly" is the exact opposite of an endorsement, in my view.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

Chris Preston:

On the topic of not noticing the wood for the trees, AoA has a post by Ronald Kostoff, who notices that non-infectious diseases have replaced infectious diseases as the main causes of death. Apparently, this is a BAD THING. Kostoff blames, the synergy on man-made causes, viz: vaccines, EMF, glyphosate ingestion and nitrosomines synergise together to produce autism.

One does wonder what he expects to happen if people don't die of infectious disease. I mean, the only other option is immortality. Perhaps he took Highlander a little too seriously?

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

Your communication (post) was passionate, creative, and PETA friendly!

From one anti-vaxx crank to another. No hypothesis is ever dismissed no matter how antithetical it may be to another.

Reliosis' "hypothesis" just goes to show how scientifically-ignorant all these anti-vaxx cranks are. Does she really think that thiomersal was removed and then nothing done to replace it? As I've said before, when you're unencumbered by facts, your own reality is just a hand-wave away.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

@Science Mom

Does she really think that thiomersal was removed and then nothing done to replace it?

Careful, there. Some anti-vaccine sort might think you're saying that thimerosal was replaced with aluminum, rather than simply referring to the fact that vaccines were switched from multi-dose vials to single-dose ones.

I knew someone who insisted her German Shepherd dog was autistic. It may have had some metal deficit, but I thought its behavioural problems were mostly the result of her appalling training techniques. It seemed to be a convenient label to excuse bad behaviour.

I assume "PETA friendly," refers to the fact that the cow was killed. PETA likes to do that to domestic and domesticated animals, although I think they prefer cats and dogs.

If a pro and an anti thimerosal anti-vaxxer were locked in a room for a day

...It's a start.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

Polymath** Mike Adams today declares that flu vaccines don't work for those who need them most ( people with reduced immunity) ENTIRELY missing the point- as he is wont to do.

** of BS woo topics

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

@daedalus2u #26:

Therefore the idea that removing thimerosal from vaccines somehow allowed for fungal infections to facilitate reactivation of attenuated vaccine strains cannot be correct because thimerosal only accompanied killed agent vaccines.

Enough of your damned logic! Not a single word of it is worth the soul of an uplifting and beautifully contrived theory*!

* Yes, yes, I know.

By Rich Woods (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

@jazzlet #35:

It may have had some metal deficit

I suggest a course of Iron Maiden.

Undiluted, of course. What do you think I am, some sort of fecking homeopath?!

By Rich Woods (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

hdb@37: Unfortunately, there is no substance to either of those schools of thought, so we wouldn't get the sort of matter-antimatter reaction that many of us would like to see.

By Eric Lund (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

"Chonic Lyme disease... the granddaddy of them all when it comes to being The One True Cause of all illness"

But I thought the granddaddy was "Adrenal Fatigue" or "Systemic Candidiasis" or food allergies diagnosed by AK or Live Cell Analysis!

If a pro and an anti thimerosal anti-vaxxer were locked in a room for a day, would they just end up supporting each others opinion as strongly as their own? Or would they meet in the middle and agree a tiny bit of thimerosal is a good idea?

Probably end up in a "no true anti-vaxxer would agree that a tiny bit of thimerosal is a good idea" type of thing with each side accusing the other of "bullying".

"If a pro and an anti thimerosal anti-vaxxer were locked in a room for a day..."

Why stop at one day?

Why stop at one day?
I would pay to watch that remake of Huit-Clos.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

It may have had some metal deficit
I suggest a course of Iron Maiden.

Science has found that 9 out of 10 dogs prefer Prog Rock.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

Removing thimerosal from vaccines caused the autism epidemic

As my Texas grandpappy used to say, some people would bitch if you hung them with a new rope.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

Chronic Lyme -- not to be confused with CBS, I assume.

Interesting story there, about alleged "fungal infections" being used to move the goalposts after the "Thimerosal causes autism" line of crackpottery was squelched.

That has a neat parallel with the anti-GMO crowd and their claim-upon-allegation response to the failure of the "GMOs are deadly poison" and "glyphosated GMO crops are killing us all" lines of attack. They simply fell back to "glyphosate in the environment is distrupting our gut bacteria, which will kill us all soon enough and the only way to stop it is to outlaw all GMOs of every kind immediately" dodge, which is so vague and diffuse that it is - shall we say - difficult to dislodge from the mind of a True Believer.

By Robert L Bell (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

Oh god, I _hate_ abuse of microbiome research. Hearing people use 'microbiome' to promote their bullshit du jour makes me think I must have some idea of how actual physicists feel when they come across 'quantum' abuse.

By Roadstergal (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

Beaux Reliosis is correct, fungi reactivate the live attenuated viruses via immunosuppression. This is in the scientific literature from the 1950s. That is, the readers can see for themselves, in PubMed.
When I first read this article I had to laugh at how badly this writer here on 'Science Blogs" screwed up the content. Surely that was deliberate... because it scared someone.
Oh, LYMErix was a "vaccine?" Being a fungal antigen? How stupid was that?

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

Oh dear, forgot a close that has screwed up the formatting.

The last sentence only represents a link.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

I was a child vaccinated in the mid 1960s. I remember every one of them due to severe needle phobia. I remember being jabbed and seeing both the needle and bottle (vial) being pitched into a waiting trash bin. My peers and I had no negative effects.

I look at the children being shot up today and see a completely different schedule for when, where, how much, and the actual formulas. They aren't the same vaccinations I had at their age. They aren't administered at the same times or in the same manner as I received.

The vaccinations I received in the 60s are all formulas that are no longer in patent. That means in order to make any profit, the vaccine manufacturer has to come up with a "new" formula in order to make a profit. Aside from the no profit aspect, what was wrong with the original formula? Nothing.

The vaccinations I received in the 60s were not combined. They were individually disease targeted single dose shots. Today manufacturers save costs by combining vaccines and shipping them in multi dose vials. Who knows what effect combining vaccines has but once those multi dose vials leave the plant, they are out of anyone's control. If you think a stated expiration date is going to cause your healthcare provider to discard an unused portion of a multi dose vial that they've paid for just because they are told it might be unsafe, walk your grocery store and randomly pick up items to check their sell-by dates. Greed makes the world turn.

I used to believe everything my doctor told me. But my doctor no longer has me as a priority. My doctor has to answer to insurance companies ($$$). My doctor has to worry about government reimbursement for services rendered. My doctor suffers enticement and pressure from pharmaceutical reps.

I've always subscribed to the notion that where there's smoke, there's probably fire. I tend to think the anti-vaccination people might be on to something.

Ms. Dickson: "This is in the scientific literature from the 1950s. That is, the readers can see for themselves, in PubMed."

Just post the relevant PMIDs then.

"Oh, LYMErix was a “vaccine?”"

Where was that vaccine mentioned in the article? Then explain how it was not a vaccine, and provide the PubMed indexed studies that showed it fungus was involved in its removal from the market.

Chris Preston: "*Yes that Gregory Poland often incorrectly quoted by anti-vaxxers."

Well, Ms. Dickson thinks that Orac actually mentioned that vaccine in his article. (actually is was an early commenter, by why let her off on her inability to read).

Careful, there. Some anti-vaccine sort might think you’re saying that thimerosal was replaced with aluminum, rather than simply referring to the fact that vaccines were switched from multi-dose vials to single-dose ones.

Gah I know right? Altho' it's actually quite common to witness an AV-er make that claim anyhow.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

Science has found that 9 out of 10 dogs prefer Prog Rock.

On Pavlovian responses, I have a beast who salivates when getting his nails trimmed and also when seeing my other beasts getting their nails trimmed.*

*Of course there's a logical (?) explanation.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

Kathleen Dickson is full of it. There is no such study but she will link to irrelevant studies and string together a series of words she doesn’t understand into a sentence that while grammatically correct says nothing.

"[R]everse duplication of a BCL2-class gene, resulting in inhibition of apoptosis and resultant inhibition of 'normal synaptic pruning' (see Einstein, Grandin, Tesla)" was a nice touch.

@Roadstergal #51

Quite the perceptive comment. I have learned to smile and nod quietly when otherwise reputable people write entire books on how Quantum Mechanics can not possibly be true because it violates their cherished opinions of how the Universe Must Be. So long as they remain competent in their own fields, strenuous objections are not worth the cost in intradepartmental hard feelings. Besides, Einstein and Bohr fought that battle eighty years ago. (Spoiler Alert: Einstein lost)

By Robert L Bell (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

@Kathleen Dickson:

Beaux Reliosis is correct, fungi reactivate the live attenuated viruses via immunosuppression.

Citation needed.
<blocThis is in the scientific literature from the 1950s. That is, the readers can see for themselves, in PubMed.
That's not how it works here. You make a claim, YOU stump up the evidence.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

Wait, I'm confused. I thought thimerosal was an adjuvant, not an antifungal agent. Or was it intended to be both?

Wait, I’m confused. I thought thimerosal was an adjuvant, not an antifungal agent. Or was it intended to be both?

Thiomersal was a preservative, not an adjuvant.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

Oh, look, Kathleen Dixon also gives, ah, "legal advice":

In a lawsuit against Yale, you will only need two witnesses: Someone from the FDA's bioanalytics division, and either Erol Fikrig or Richard Flavell, because those 2 have their names on both the Flagellin antibody method that detects 94.4% of all Lyme cases with 100% specificity, and they also own the patent for LYMErix. The LYMErix patent came after the Flagellin patent, so they knew how to diagnose Lyme but did not use this valid method to qualify LYMErix.

Evidence:
EVIDENCE? >> http://www.actionlyme.org
Thanks for the invite. And this had nothing to do with "Orac's" post, but discovering how the fungal antigen OspA or LYMErix caused systemic illness just like "Chronic Lyme." If you have any courage, you will follow up. Otherwise I don't need to answer lazy people. It's in Pubmed from the 1950s .

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

Oh, I see it's time to give Ms. Dixon a wide berth:

In other words, there is no USDOJ in terms of offering actual humans relief, but rather, their agenda is to destroy the United States, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, because they get in the way of the New World Order, which is another word for The Fourth Reich or NAZIism or Global Fascism. The three main competing entities are the Rothschilds (Mossad, Israel and British Intelligence), the Rockefellers (Trilaterals and the CIA), and Russia. See more about that in Chp 24 about the Bushioso Crime Family

(Also banned at LBRB last year.)

Kathleen Dickson@66

If you have any courage, you will follow up.

And if you have any integrity you will cite your sources.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

^ "Dixon Dickson"

If you have any courage, you will follow up.

And if you have any integrity you will cite your sources.

Why ? I like this method better ; it would save students and researchers soooo much time if they didn't have to go through the hassle of putting a detailed bibliography at the end of their thesis / articles, just telling readers "I saw it in Pubmed from the 1950s".
/sarcasm

Thanks for the invite. And this had nothing to do with “Orac’s” post, but discovering how the fungal antigen OspA or LYMErix caused systemic illness just like “Chronic Lyme.”

OspA is a bacterial antigen, not a fungal antigen. Pubmed from 2011 .

I have already posted that link.

I am going to take a punt here. Your repeated inability to understand the difference between a bacterium and a fungus is illustrative of your ignorance on other topics.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

@Kathleen Dickson:

Evidence:
EVIDENCE? >> [link to a site about Lyme Disease]

That's NOT evidence.

Otherwise I don’t need to answer lazy people. It’s in Pubmed from the 1950s .

1) Lazy? Oh the hypocrisy. You expect us to root through literally thousands of papers to find the data you claim supports you. In other words, you want us to do your job.
2) That's not how it works around here. If you make a claim, the onus is on YOU to provide supporting evidence. Saying "1950's PubMed" simply doesn't cut it. Provide links to the actual papers you say support you. Or to put it as simply as possible:
Proof or GTFO.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink

VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM

I am in full agreement that Thimerisal is not the etiological cause of autism that does not however remove it from being complicit. Immune suppression is a factor associated with mercury.

Heavy Metal Suppression of the Immune System
Heavy metals such as:
1. Mercury
2. Lead
3. Cadmium
4. Aluminum
5. Arsenic
6. Uranium
Heavy metals suppress the immune system at a time when the full force and power of the immune system is necessary to seek out and destroy aberrant cells.
? Linked to increased free-radical activity and oxidation processes
? Contributes to premature aging and aging diseases
? Can cause suppression and/or deregulation of the immune system, leading to
a ten fold increase in cancer mortality (Blumer, W. and Cranton, E.)
? Suspected contribution to learning disorders and neuro-degenerative diseases
? Increases risk of cardiomyopathy (Heart Disease) (Frustachi et. al.)

I am somewhat surprised that you as a physician who has sworn to first do no harm would ignore the inherent perils of this heavy metal and especially since no prospective randomized double blind study has been done here in the states with respect to the viruses in question.

You have a duty to provide good safe care and opinions to all of your patients and to those that you impart medical advice to even if it is free.

Further the infectious etiology of autism is old news as Singh et al has almost 20 years ago elucidated the role of the viruses in children with autism noting that approximately 80 to 85 % were ANA positive.

I understand that most of your uninformed readers do not have a clue to the implications of the fact but as their rabbi Orac I thought you would educate your disciples a bit more vigorously.

By the way does it concern you the high rate of ANA positive autistic children and if not why not ? Do you think that the ANA rate is relevant ? what virus do you suppose has infiltrated the genome? Would you apologize after you found out that the vaccines did cause the autism?

I know the answers to all of these questions as I am sure you must know but I would like to know your answers.

VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM

Heavy metals suppress the immune system...

Citation Needed.

...the inherent perils of this heavy metal...

Citation Needed.

You have a duty to provide good safe care and opinions to all of your patients and to those that you impart medical advice to even if it is free.

Point to his errors. If there are any, that is.

the infectious etiology of autism is old news as Singh et al has almost 20 years ago elucidated the role of the viruses in children with autism noting that approximately 80 to 85 % were ANA positive.

Citation DEFINITELY Needed.

VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM

NO THEY DON'T.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 08 Dec 2015 #permalink
the infectious etiology of autism is old news as Singh et al has almost 20 years ago elucidated the role of the viruses in children with autism noting that approximately 80 to 85 % were ANA positive.

Citation DEFINITELY Needed.

They must mean this one : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15316135
or this one : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17295806
*whistle innocently*
Also, if you are thinking (most likely) about another study, has it been replicated ?

VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM

Julian

yes they do they absolutely do.

This post was not meant for you because you do not even have the educational standing to challenge the premises put forth or the editor of the same- child

I realize that it is late however if you question the source go look it up for yourself - if you can type google it that really is not that hard -even for you. You are the loan sentry guarding the turd here I get it. I will try not to be to condescending but you do deserve it being not just a lay person but a smart ass lay person.

All of the quotes there are easily verifiable. ORAC is probably sleeping- where I should be as well but I will expect his response some time tomorrow as I know he would not hide behind a committed and useful idiot such as yourself.

The references are there and he has read them even if you have not - not that it would do you any good as you are clearly not trained - however he will know what to do with them and I want to hear/read his response and that is reasonable in my view.

VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM

VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM

Go back to AoA, where the signal-to-noise ratio is more at your level.

[link to a site about Lyme Disease]

It's hers.

OspA is a bacterial antigen, not a fungal antigen. Pubmed from 2011.

Ah, you are forgetting, OspA is often produced for vaccine purposes by way of recombinant yeast culture, therefore FUNGUS.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

as their rabbi Orac

Needs more Rothschilds and New World Order.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

Vaccines without thimersol cause ADHD, too?

Funny that, given that what we now call ADHD was first identified in the 1800's.

Ah, you are forgetting, OspA is often produced for vaccine purposes by way of recombinant yeast culture, therefore FUNGUS.

They grew it in E. coli, which is very much not a fungus.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

Willie,

Further the infectious etiology of autism is old news as Singh et al has almost 20 years ago elucidated the role of the viruses in children with autism noting that approximately 80 to 85 % were ANA positive.

You mean this paper by SIngh et.al. that LouV cited? Did you even look at the abstract which says:

Since mercury is potentially a risk factor for autoimmunity, we conducted a study of mercury-induced antinuclear and antilaminin antibodies in autistic and normal children who had been pre-administered with thimerosal-containing vaccines. Laboratory analysis by different immunoassays showed that the serum level of these two autoimmune markers did not significantly differ between autistic and normal children.

You do know that ANA stands for 'antinuclear antibodies'? It looks like your autoantibody hypothesis fails.

I understand that most of your uninformed readers do not have a clue to the implications of the fact but as their rabbi Orac I thought you would educate your disciples a bit more vigorously.

Most of us have a scientific background and are quite capable of reading the research and seeing how ridiculous the antivaxxer claims are. You, and Ms Dickson, very clearly do not understand the science you keep mangling. It's entertaining to observe, a bit like watching children playing 'let's pretend' (though a bit embarrassing to witness that kind of behavior in adults), but it has nothing to do with reality. The only shame is that some people believe this nonsense making it a threat to public health.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

I would never have guessed that the Lyme-delusion crowd would turn out to be a pack of antisemites obsessed with 9/11 trutherism and the Nazi-Jewish conspiracy.

http://www.actionlyme.org/2014_JAN_NOV.htm

That is not the whole Lyme Delusion crowd, but Kathleen Dickson.

I do like the "2 New Posters" advertised. The text woukd be so small that no-one could ever read them.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

@Krebiozen #86

You mean this paper by SIngh et.al. that LouV cited?

To be clear, I was kidding. (The papers obviously aren't almost 20 years old.)
I just meant :
- this author has written quite a few papers over the years, so a reference would be very helpful. (For the snarky version, see #71)
- apparently, this author later produced papers which aren't completely consistent with your thesis.

<blockquote.VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM

Julian

yes they do they absolutely do.
Multiple large studies, and a meta-analysis containing millions of subjects, say they don't.

if you question the source go look it up for yourself – if you can type google it that really is not that hard -even for you...

As I wrote in my comment above to Kathleen Dickson, you make the claim, you provide the evidence. That's how it works here.

You are the loan sentry guarding the turd here I get it. I will try not to be to condescending

It's very amusing that someone who confuses "lone" with "loan" assumes he has the intellect to condescend to me.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

They grew it in E. coli, which is very much not a fungus.

Clearly the E stands for "Fungus", a convention dating to before there were separate characters for E and F. In other news, the big G stands for "Goodness".

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

#78 1 LouV
“I saw it in Pubmed from the 1950s”.
Personally I advocate the “Jean LeBlanc, Personal communication 1950-02-03) method. Much harder to challenge, especially if the said JB has since died.

By jrkrideau (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

So - fungi and/or heavy metals lurking in vaccine cause autism through immunosuppression - resulting in the revving up of the immune system to the point that autoantibodies are produced.

I am so confused.

Won't our "rabbi" explain what is going on?*

*presenting the FACTS without comment, which is a blog's true purpose.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

@Julie: funny, I had my immunizations in the 60s, too, as did many other commenters here. Do you remember DTP? A combined vaccine that my immunization records show I got at 2, 4 and 6 months. Along with oral polio vaccine at the same time. I don't recall when I got my smallpox vaccine and can't be bothered to pull out my record for you.

And guess what! Thanks to the elimination of smallpox, we no longer have to vaccinate against it!!! Wouldn't it be really nice if we could do that to other diseases like measles? All we have to do is immunize until it's no longer around, since it has no other reservoirs besides humans.

Given the lack of autisitc dogs in this house heavy metal is clearly protective. Though I can't possiblyly comment on any other mental problems my dogs may have ...

Back OT in response to Julie I was a child who was just too old to be vaccinated in the 1960s and I can assure you that even for someone who didn't suffer obvious damage getting the childhood diseases was not a picnic in the park. Having hallucinations because of high fever when you are too young to know about hallucinations is terrifying. No one in my family is driving the same kind of car they had in the '60s because cars have been improved in so many different ways since then, safety, comfort, mileage to mention three, and the same is true for vaccines. I would be more concerned if we were using exactly the same vaccines hith out havng done anything to ensure they were the best they could be.

I am very puzzled by a few things in your comment Julie :
- the schedule and the vaccines having changed : why is that bad in itself ? Can't it be because knowledge evolved thanks to research ? (like Jazzlet said)
- As MI Dawn said, some vaccines in the 60s were already combined. Also, some of them like the smallpox and oral polio vaccines had proven side effects ; that's part of why the smallpox vaccine was discontinued as soon as smallpox was eradicated, and the oral polio vaccine was replaced by the injectable one.
So are you sure that nothing "was wrong with the original formula" ?
- Is a patent really necessary to make a profit ?
- Is there a confusion between "combined" and "multidoses" ? Yes there are many combined vaccines, however the article above addressed the fact that thanks to thimerosal ban, most vaccines today have to be in single dose vials.

@LouV (and Julie)

– Is a patent really necessary to make a profit ?

Yes. That's why Bayer no longer makes aspirin tablets. Duh!

Pro Tip:

Read entries which cite medical, biological or psychological research from 60-odd years ago with extreme scepticism.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

1. It's always the vaccines that did it.

2. If the vaccines didn't do it, refer to rule #1.

Chris Preston:
They grew [OspA] in E. coli, which is very much not a fungus.

One can find papers about EspA and recombinant yeast if one looks hard enough, therefore your statement about real-world production is noncupatory.

Ivriniel
what we now call ADHD was first identified in the 1800’s.

So was autism (that Dr Down was a good observer) but it makes no difference to determined believers.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

– Is a patent really necessary to make a profit ?

Yes, that is why food suppliers and restaurants patent all their recipes.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM

Serological association of measles virus and human herpesvirus-6 with brain autoantibodies in autism.
Singh VK1, Lin SX, Yang VC.
Author information
•1College of Pharmacy, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, 48109-1065, USA.
Abstract
Considering an autoimmunity and autism connection, brain autoantibodies to myelin basic protein (anti-MBP) and neuron-axon filament protein (anti-NAFP) have been found in autistic children. In this current study, we examined associations between virus serology and autoantibody by simultaneous analysis of measles virus antibody (measles-IgG), human herpesvirus-6 antibody (HHV-6-IgG), anti-MBP, and anti-NAFP. We found that measles-IgG and HHV-6-IgG titers were moderately higher in autistic children but they did not significantly differ from normal controls. Moreover, we found that a vast majority of virus serology-positive autistic sera was also positive for brain autoantibody: (i) 90% of measles-IgG-positive autistic sera was also positive for anti-MBP; (ii) 73% of measles-IgG-positive autistic sera was also positive for anti-NAFP; (iii) 84% of HHV-6-IgG-positive autistic sera was also positive for anti-MBP; and (iv) 72% of HHV-6-IgG-positive autistic sera was also positive for anti-NAFP. This study is the first to report an association between virus serology and brain autoantibody in autism; it supports the hypothesis that a virus-induced autoimmune response may play a causal role in autism.
Serological association of measles virus and human herpesvirus-6 with brain autoantibodies in autism.[Clin Immunol Immunopathol. 1998

VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM
HOUSE CLEANING – I had some time this morning so I will start with this
NARAD – GFY I will tell you that your face to ok tough guy- I BLOG where I please ok vaccine jihadist the questions for your fearless leader are legitimate concerns that compel a response not withstanding your pathetic and juvenile retort
HERR DOKTOR BIMLER—what are you in third grade ? NO brain at all ? jerking off Narad ?
KREBIOZEN- What did you not get about “ almost 20 years ago”? The paper was published in 1998 that is almost 20 years ago, you can count right? Oh I get it you were not born yet!!! Are you really that inept or are you just trying to get my hopes up? What you really cannot search entrez pub med? Seriously?
“Most of us have a scientific background and are quite capable of reading the research and seeing how ridiculous the antivaxxer claims are”
WOW, WOW, I mean you really are delusional aren’t you? You are clearly out of your F---ing mind if you think that “having a science background” qualifies you as anything but a nut job practicing medicine without a licensure and although you probably would not open an office and try and collect fees for your inept and inane opinions based on your “scientific background” your conduct of giving advice as to the efficacy and reliability of drugs is perilously close. I doubt that any law enforcement agency would pursue your “hobby” as they would consider you just a puffed up dolt at the least and a whack job at the most.
What exactly does “scientific background” mean please clarify that absurd statement? What is funny is that you probably think that you have a good answer for that question and I cannot wait to see what you cobble together, if it is even cogent let alone intelligent as there is no possible scenario where it could be even remotely reasonable.
What exactly is it that you think you can do with your “scientific background”? I mean to suggest that because you took a high school biology class or swept up in a lab somewhere or slept with some guy or 2 guys or girls or both that also swept up in a lab that you are now privileged to discuss the nuances of the developing immune system in the most complex living organism in the world- a human being , is truly astounding .
Let me see now. With your “scientific background” Can you prescribe meds give medical advice perform surgery diagnose complex disease processes discuss the relevant developmental deviations and the most likely cause of such deviations? Can you with your “scientific background” intelligently process the impact of the epidemiology of a pathological process and deduce it’s likely origins and the implications and future impact on families and societal socioeconomic considerations?
Is that what your “scientific background” allows you to do? What else can you do with it? Can you fly planes to and launch space ships and navigate uncharted ocean depths I mean where does this all end with the “scientific background”.
This is a small dose of reality which I will not charge you for- I am a philanthropist at heart and you are clearly mentally challenged. This dose is also relatively painless for you to receive- of course you will be subjected to ridicule, mockery and echoing laughter by your fellow coconspirators here, however it serves the greater good as you must realize that this “scientific background” thing you are touting is way beyond arrogance and from all appearance is a pickup line you use in gay bars or bath houses to get sex or something that you came up with after smoking too much or too little of your favorite brand of cannabis and now you cannot discern that it was the weed talking all along and not your original idea.
How could it be your original idea, giving you some credit for at least 1 brain cell that would be tantamount to you confessing your idiocy to the world which, all things considered you might do if properly influenced by delta 9 THC, even in that haze at this point now if nothing else you will simply shut the F--- up when educated people are asking relatively simple questions of persons that have taken a staunch position on a very serious subject that has tremendous implications on about a thousand levels that you clearly could never even fathom.

“ You do know that ANA stands for ‘antinuclear antibodies’? It looks like your autoantibody hypothesis fails”
You are entertained by me with your “scientific background”, really? You have no idea who you are even talking to. I mean even the most ambitious juvenile would not be that intoxicated with his own self worth and intellectual status. You should probably go see someone professionally as I am sure that after you begin your ramblings he /she will put you on medication, you may be hospitalized as it appears that you would be a candidate for a 5150 admission at any county facility. I will leave it at that with you for now, mercifully your time with me is up and although you are clearly in need I have only so much time for charity work and Obamacare does cover psychiatric cases such as yours and even though the waiting list is long with your level of complete and utter madness flight of ideas, delusions of grandeur etc. they will get you in right away. Good luck
Julian Frost
I tell you how it works ok knucklehead so piss off. Real scientist actually look things up and are not spoon fed like babies, they have some work ethic and genuine desire to further themselves. Clearly you are not a baby or a scientist just a POS on a blog trying to bully people. You never know when you might meet the people you are talking to and then what, what then smart ass.
Other than being rude and stupid you have brought nothing of value to the discussion just another blog tool vomiting up and spewing out secular uneducated uniformed blather. You know nothing , zero nada.
Please do not quote articles you have never read or could even intelligently analyze or interpret that I have already read and have determined are dubios. If you really believe the articles quote them tell me the biostatistical relevance of the articles, who were the authors? Are they credible? What is their specialty? Was it ghost written ? Are there any conflicts of interest ? Were they stated? What is the gold standard for scientific reporting? Do any of these papers meet that standard? Were any of these papers reproduced?
You are not amused Julian you are not smart enough to even have a sense of humor. You are simply another sad faced perverted blog clown, no need to measure you as your post screams that you are wanting. You are not really worthy of criticism as not even I can be that heartless to dump on one such as yourself who is so feculent and far down in the toilette that you do not even know which way is up.
You just keep on eating that fecal fruit of vaccine lies as you have now garnered and acquired a taste for it I certainly will not protest your indulgence, go ahead wallow in it. Just do not ask me to wallow in it or make up lies for others to follow. The article I quoted is clear and accurate I have posted it for the retarded people like you and your boyfriend above so after you to get your clothes back on you can read about it together.
I will not post the heavy metal articles as there is enough information anywhere for you get that.
I will not respond back to your insolent remarks any further as I have gone way over my timeline here. If Orac does not answer then so be it if he does then I will respond according to his post which I am certain will be academically robust and civil as we are alumni of the same undergraduate university and medical school.

VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM

Somebody needs a hug.

Being 0vercapitalised is not just a sharemarket problem.

I will not respond back to your insolent remarks any further
The flounce is strong with this one.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

@ Willie #102
O_o
Wow, chill dude.
First, thanks for providing the article reference, as was asked. Simply saying "just look on Google / Pubmed" is never a serious answer. We have to be sure we have the same references after all and as I said earlier, a student or scientist would be reprimanded if answered that instead of providing a bibliography.

About the paper Krebiozen was talking about, it was because of me. I explained why I cited these papers at #88.
As for the rest of your post... *sigh* Yes, please take a chill pill and maybe we can have a constructive discussion. I don't have a background in biology so I don't understand what is your problem with “You do know that ANA stands for ‘antinuclear antibodies’? It looks like your autoantibody hypothesis fails”.

Wow. Willie showed us all, didn't he? (giggle). After all, it's *certainly* not possible that anyone here has any medical training, background, scientific knowledge or anything. We're all just people who sit around and post on the internet all day. By the way, Willie: yes, I do/did have a license to do many of those things. Since I changed my practice, I no longer prescribe medications nor do I perform any hands-on care.

Certainly he doesn't understand the first lesson of science: If you make the claim, YOU are responsible to supply the proof.

Since Willie has no proof, he has to use strawmen and slurs.

Bless his heart! (to be read with a Southern drawl)

By the way, Willie - Just because you are a U-M grad (so am I, so was my ex-husband), it doesn't mean you are a special snowflake. Remember what they call the person who graduated last in his medical class?

Gaist

You are funny and accurate

So much for the flounce.

@WILLIE (#102):

I will not post the heavy metal articles...
I will not respond back to your insolent remarks any further...

"I will not eat those Brussels sprouts, because they are icky!"
"I will hold my breath until I turn blue, or people respect me for the sooper dooper genius I absolutely know I am! Or else I'll take my really awesome ball that everybody wants to play with and go home!"

"BRUSSELS SPROUTS CAUSE COOTIES!"

By Richard Smith (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

“I saw it in Pubmed from the 1950s”.
Personally I advocate the “Jean LeBlanc, Personal communication 1950-02-03) method.

Journal reviewers turn out to be unreceptive to citations of the form "Voices in Head, pers.comm." It's CENSORSHIP.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

What would freud say about our AV trolls having the names "Willie" and "Dickson"? Shall we expect more comments from Koch, Wang, Wiener and Boen? Or do we just take the co-incidence as an occasion to celebrate the great blues songwriter, Willie Dixon, who was not unknown to distributors of heavy metals amongst the populace:
https://youtu.be/WfwLUkzKx9k?t=13s

Kathleen Dickson:

And this had nothing to do with “Orac’s” post

Ah, so you're a spammer, just finding random threads to take over? How lovely. I suppose back in the old Usenet days you'd have been cross-posting this to everything vaguely medical you could find.

Otherwise I don’t need to answer lazy people. It’s in Pubmed from the 1950s .

You can't be bothered to post the evidence you supposedly already have, or to find a relevant post to comment on, and you call *us* lazy?

julie @ #55:

The vaccinations I received in the 60s are all formulas that are no longer in patent. That means in order to make any profit, the vaccine manufacturer has to come up with a “new” formula in order to make a profit. Aside from the no profit aspect, what was wrong with the original formula? Nothing.

So, you believe that all vaccines currently in use are patented? The MMR was introduced not long after you were vaccinated -- in 1971. Patent protection doesn't last 45 years. MMRV was first approved in 2005, and is made by several different companies -- it isn't patented. A range of vaccines are available for other diseases; patients and doctors can select from several competitors. For instance, although Pediarix is the usual way kids in America get inactivated polio vaccine, because it saves them needle sticks (something you'd think a needle-phobic would approve of; it also includes DTaP, which covers diptheria, tetanus, and polio), it isn't required to take it that way, and people who didn't get polio vaccine younger are advised to get a standalone IPV shot. Adults in America are advised to get their tetanus boosters as Tdap, which also covers diptheria and pertussis due to rising pertussis rates. (Adults have become the primary vector.) Tdap is also not patent-protected, and is manufactured by two different companies.

Note: the mandatory vaccines are not big profit centers, thanks to the fact that they are just about the only drugs where the government enforces price controls. If you want big profit, look for stuff that is A) heavily marketed to the public, B) patented, and C) for chronic disease. Here are the top 20 sellers in America in 2014:

#1 Abilify (atypical antipsychotic used as an adjuvant to antidepressants and for the treatment of autism, but has some disturbing side effects)
#2 Humira (immune suppressant used to treat an increasing number of autoimmune disorders)
#3 Nexium (proton-pump inhibitor to treat recurring acid reflux; now OTC and isn't it *amazing* how much the price dropped hwne it did? to exactly what the manufacturer was charging for OTC Prilosec?)
#4 Crestor (treats high cholesterol)
#5 Enbrel (rheumatoid arthritis)
#6/7 Advair Diskus/Seretide (combination beta-2 agonist and corticosteroid, treats moderate to severe asthma; they're the same product, but with different names depending on where it is being sold)
#8 Remicade (immune suppresant along the lines of Humira)
#9 Lantus Solostar (type 2 diabetes; this is an insulin product)
#10 Neulasta (neutropenia associated with chemotherapy)
#11 Copaxone (MS)
#12 Rituzan (Non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma, rheumatoid arthritis, a few other things)
#13 SPiriva (COPD)
#14 Januvia (type 2 diabetes)
#15 Lantus (type 1 and 2 diabetes; insulin product)
#16 Atripla (HIV antiretroviral cocktail)
#17 Cymbalta (antidepressant)
#18 Avastin (cancer)
#19 Lyrica (neuropathic pain)
#20 OxyContin (opiate)

I won't deny that the pharmaceutical industry has huge problems. But by obsessing over vaccines, you miss the real problem. Or, to use your "where there's smoke, there's fire" adage, you are seeing the smoke, but not realizing what's actually burning. The places where pricing is abusive is in the drugs that one must take for a long period of time, and those which can save your life or at least make it more bearable. Go look at the list of the top grossing drugs; the only one in the top 100 is Prevnar 13 (the pneumococcal conjugate vaccine), at #81; in the US, it's recommended for adults over the age of 65, but not for children; it isn't on any mandatory vaccine schedules, and consequently is not price controlled except insofar as insurers may balk at certain prices. This probably explains why Prevnar 7 is not grossing as high as Prevnar 13, even though more people are getting the former -- they're able to jack up the price on the one for older people.

BTW: did you know that Tamiflu is more profitable than the influenza vaccine? True. This despite the fact that studies have shown the vaccine is more effective at preventing hospitalization for influenza. Tamiflu was #90 on that list. No influenza vaccines made the list. Mind you, an influenza vaccine is, at most, one dose a year. Tamiflu is a course of 10 pills. Very easy to sell more of those, especially to people who feel like crap and desperately want to feel better, even if by the time you feel like crap, it's probably too late for Tamiflu to help you much.

I used to believe everything my doctor told me. But my doctor no longer has me as a priority.

Then why on Earth are you still seeing that doctor? There are others, you know. I am really tired of people saying that because their doctor is a jerk or an idiot, {insert rejection of mainstream claim here}. If your doctor is incompetent, fire them. Start seeing someone else. I definitely think our medical boards need to do a better job of policing for competence, but that doesn't mean you should have no responsibility for your own care.

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

Willie:

You are clearly out of your F—ing mind if you think that “having a science background” qualifies you as anything but a nut job practicing medicine without a licensure and although you probably would not open an office and try and collect fees for your inept and inane opinions based on your “scientific background” your conduct of giving advice as to the efficacy and reliability of drugs is perilously close. I doubt that any law enforcement agency would pursue your “hobby” as they would consider you just a puffed up dolt at the least and a whack job at the most.

Well, you would know.

What exactly does “scientific background” mean please clarify that absurd statement? What is funny is that you probably think that you have a good answer for that question and I cannot wait to see what you cobble together, if it is even cogent let alone intelligent as there is no possible scenario where it could be even remotely reasonable.

You don't understand what the value of a "scientific background" is, so you have to cover up your discomfort with a few insults and then ramble for several paragraphs without once ever offering your own scientific background?

You are entertained by me with your “scientific background”, really? You have no idea who you are even talking to.

Well, you know how it is. On the Internet, no one knows you are a dog. Are you expecting him to have recognized you from your screen name? How famous do you think you are, that you expect him to know what your qualifications are? Or are you expecting telepathy?

Other than being rude and stupid you have brought nothing of value to the discussion just another blog tool vomiting up and spewing out secular uneducated uniformed blather.

Again, you would know. This post is a very good demonstration of how rude you can be, yet offers very little substance to support your claims.

If you really believe the articles quote them tell me the biostatistical relevance of the articles, who were the authors? Are they credible? What is their specialty?

Oh, so other people have to properly cite their sources, but you don't? Is that it? Is it becuase you are so special and brilliant and we should all know it that you don't have to?

VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM

You do realize, don't you, that claims aren't more true when shouted?

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

I will not respond back to your insolent remarks any further

Brought to you by the Department of Redundancy Department.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

I will not post the heavy metal articles…

No matter, I have all the issues from the early 80s when Lou Stathis was writing the rock-music column and doing the interviews. The magazine went downhill after that.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

@herr doktor bimler (#116):

The magazine went downhill after that.

Is that not the nature of the eponymous rock?

By Richard Smith (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

I read a couple articles that firmly established that Willie is actually a one-legged, bearded yak 20 years ago. Willie, you can google those articles; I'm not going to do your work for you, but they're out there.

I hope you can see from this that it is ridiculous to demand that others find the source that you are relying on. If I made the claim that you were a one-legged, bearded yak, it's my responsibility to provide the evidence to support that. In the same way, if you make a claim that there is a study supporting your assertions, the onus is on you to provide that study.

Is that not the nature of the eponymous rock?

True that. But you can't tell kids today how bad the modern music is to which they're subjecting themselves. They just laugh, and hide your hearing aids.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

"On the Internet, no one knows you are a dog."

Personally, I'm a French lingerie model.

Zut, alors.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

Needs more Rothschilds and New World Order.

We got teh gays, pot and Obamacare - close enough?

Willlie,
Aren't you adorable?

KREBIOZEN- What did you not get about “ almost 20 years ago”?

I got that, but I don't get why you are citing an out-of-date paper when a later study has attempted to replicate its findings and found no association of ANA with autism. The only paper I can find that found any association is an Egyptian one from a group that has come up with all manner of odd and unreplicated findings in individuals with ASDs that I don't find convincing. Citing evidence that supports your hypothesis while ignoring later and more compelling evidence that contradicts it is called cherry picking.

What exactly does “scientific background” mean please clarify that absurd statement?

Absurd? I spent 23 years working as a biomedical scientist (that was my job title) specializing in clinical biochemistry after training and qualifying in Cambridge UK. I was involved in both research and clinical work and learned more than enough to see that you and Ms Dickson have not the faintest clue about medical science.

I'll ignore the rest of your bizarre rant and merely observe that it suggests I hit home. You know nothing about science and have made an idiot of yourself trying to bluff in the face of real scientists. I called your bluff and now you have thrown a hissy fit accusing me of drug abuse, hanging out in gay bath-houses and suffering from serious mental illness, not that there's anything wrong with these, but you are quite wrong about me, and about pretty much everything else.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

@WILLIE (#102):

determined are dubios.

Dubios: A questionable cereal.

By Richard Smith (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

NARAD – GFY I will tell you that your face to ok tough guy- I BLOG [sic] where I please ok vaccine jihadist the questions for your fearless leader are legitimate concerns that compel a response not withstanding your pathetic and juvenile retort

What did I say about signal-to-noise ratio?

Cheryl links two two articles that are a key part of Beaux Reliosis' argument about fungi and 'chronic lyme' (and are in fact links on the website in question) in a drive-by posting.

This is a facepalm moment folks.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

What did I say about signal-to-noise ratio?

Was there actually a signal in WILLIE's post? I treated it as 100% noise.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

You ASKED for the links..I handed them to you..and just because they're ON that website doesn't mean they're FROM that website...the website is a collaboration of scientific research done by real live scientists. Instead of wasting your energy debunking the posters why don't you use it to learn something for a change? I did...this is not coming from BELIEFS..it comes from many years of actual studying...something blind and brainwashed sheep don't do..they just like to talk a bunch of sarcasm in place of intelligence..much like the trolls

I treated it as 100% noise.

I probably should have too, though then I might have missed that magnificently deranged rant. :-)

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

From Singh et al.:

Immunotherapy with intravenous immunoglobulin (6) and transfer factor (11) produces significant improvement of autistic characteristics.
...
11. Fudenberg, H. H., Dialyzable lymphocyte extract (DLyE) in infantile onset autism: A pilot study. Biotherapy 9, 143–147, 1996

(Reference 17 is Wakefraud.)

As reported here, we found that positive titers of both measles and HHV-6 antibodies are related to brain autoantibodies, i.e., the higher the virus antibody titer the greater the chance of brain autoantibody.

Nice of WILLIE to come up with a paper that suggests the "problem" would be worse with wild-type measles.

You ASKED for the links..I handed them to you..and just because they’re ON that website doesn’t mean they’re FROM that website

The request was "Provide links to the actual papers you say support you." Neither of these is an actual paper. Neither supports the conclusion "fungi reactivate the live attenuated viruses via immunosuppression".

So , yes. Go fish.

the website is a collaboration of scientific research done by real live scientists

No it isn't. Each of the websites we have discussed in this thread appear to be the person of a single individual with no scientific training.

I did…this is not coming from BELIEFS..it comes from many years of actual studying…something blind and brainwashed sheep don’t do

It never ceases to amaze me the consistency of the various versions of the sheeple argument used by those who have done their research on Google and found the TROOF.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

On the matter of the profit in vaccines:
While some may be expensive and yield considerable profit, some are remarkably inexpensive. Without even knowing the cost of the vaccine itself, this is revealed by the fact that vaccines in multi dose vials cost enough less than those in single dose vials that the cost differential is often a legitimate consideration in poorer countries. You can buy a small vial of saline for under a dollar, which gives some perspective on package cost. If a dollar for the package makes much difference to the total cost, the total can't be much.

Here is paper from 2010.

Figure 3a shows how measles vaccine cost per vaccinated patient varies by the patient arrival rate when the mean cost values in Table 1 are used. When the mean daily patient arrival rate is between 1 and 2 patients the single-dose vaccine format is the least costly option, costing $0.94 per vaccinated individual. When the mean arrival rate exceeds 2 people per day, the 10-dose measles vaccine format becomes the most economic choice, costing from $0.27 to $0.78 per vaccinated individual.

real live scientists.

As opposed to the fake dead ones we know are responsible for this massive cover-up.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

YES..she is a chemist and worked for Pfizer..and the links IN the website are from PubMed..mostly..but there are others. If you'd LOOK before you open your mouth that might help you not look so dumb....and I have a medical background as well as studied microbiology. How is it that an individual has to have a degree or a few letters after their name to be an expert...there are people WITH degrees and a bunch of letters after their names who are quite stupid and there are many without degrees who are extremely intelligent..anyone can learn...you should try it sometime

"Autistic Cows" = band name.

Chris Preston, Calli: Most people have a terrible time reasoning about compositional data, such as leading causes of death. Recently there was a brouhaha claiming that workplace homicide is primarily a women's problem because it's the second leading cause of workplace death for women, whereas much farther down for men.

But the total number of all-cause workplace deaths for women is actually smaller than the number of workplace homicide deaths for men. Women are much less likely than men to be killed on the job. BTW, the majority of workplace homicides are shootings during armed robberies; "co-worker goes postal" incidents are quite rare.

Similarly, suicide is a more prominent cause of death in young adults now than it was 25 years ago, but that's because young-adult deaths from AIDS and homicide have dropped drastically.

YES..she is a chemist and worked for Pfizer..

Is? No, that was a long time ago. Do you really want to drag her entire history into this, or will you settle for her current incoherence?

and I have a medical background as well as studied microbiology

That sounds awfully familiar to me.

YES..she is a chemist and worked for Pfizer..

Yet, strangely cannot identify the difference between a bacterium and a fungus. Her work with Pfizer has not stopped her making ignorant (and largely incoherent) statements.

Perspective seems to be another thing that she lacks

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

Yet, strangely cannot identify the difference between a bacterium and a fungus.

Chemists (for the most part) are notoriously ignorant of biology.

and I have a medical background as well as studied microbiology.

This is the one I'd be more worried about not knowing the difference between fungi and bacteria given her uber background.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

Narad -- that struck me as well. Didn't we have a lady posting here some time ago who claimed a "medical background" and to have "studied" the relevant fields? Notably, without ever disclosing the credentials she was trying to imply; her claim would be just as true if she worked as a medical billing specialist and read a book about paramecia.

Cheryl:

Instead of wasting your energy debunking the posters why don’t you use it to learn something for a change? I did…this is not coming from BELIEFS..

Ah, I'm afraid that if your approach is to take whatever the website tells you at face value, then it *is* coming from beliefs. And if you don't make an effort to invalidate the claim, then you don't really know whether or not it is true. We spend energy subjecting claims to scrutiny precisely because we care about the truth instead of beliefs. It is uncomfortable at times, because sometimes you find out that some beautiful theory has been ruined by a single ugly fact, but better that than to go on believing something wrong, don't you think?

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

Willie, I couldn't be arsed to go through your rant, not least because you seem to think that this is a Three Stooges film, not a blog.
As I said before, you make the claim, you stump up the proof. What you have given us so far is very weak tea. Anyone can claim something (like e.g. "unicorns exist") and then insist there is evidence out there. Insisting others look for the evidence that YOU claim is out there is lazy and dishonest.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

Abortion is a known risk of vaccination with the RB-51 strain.

Indeed. The actual MMWR item (the link in the post itself is broken, so Cheryl helped out a bit here) states that

The vaccine had caused active B. abortus infection because the 14-month-old heifer delivering the calf was not known to be pregnant when she was vaccinated with RB51 at approximately 8 months of age, which was within the specified age range for vaccination. The heifer was administered the RB51 vaccine dosage recommended for calves, which was 10 times the dosage recommended for adult or pregnant cattle.

^ So much for the "weight-adjusted challenge."

Willie, I couldn’t be arsed to go through your rant

See, in the NZ idiom -- or at least in my own idiolect -- this construction requires a gerund rather than the infinitive of the verb. That is, "I can't be arsed going through your rant". The participle can be replaced with "buggered" or "fecked", although with weaker verbs like "bothered", the infinitive construction becomes more acceptable.
Other people, they are not Englishing properly.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

Yall should read what we are saying, actually - quoting the CDC and NIH, mainly -, instead of the mangled version of what this "Science Blog" person says we are saying. This report by this person, above, Orac, made no sense whatsoever, scientifically, but yall bought that brainscramble. Hilarious.

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 09 Dec 2015 #permalink

@ Kathleen Dickson #149
Then how about you point and explain some of the things he misinterpreted ?
(with precise and correctly provided references, not just "read my whole website" or "Pubmed from the 1950s". As it has been repeated several times here, a researcher or a student couldn't get away with this. It is a way for you to gain some credibility points back.)

She knows the difference between a virus and bacteria but what your not reading is that some bacteria drop fungal blebs to disable the immune system. Perhaps cast your eyes over the significance of this. But as most of you are probably "plants" to encourage more brain scramble, you prob know this.

I would for example be interested by your take on :
- the fungus / bacteria antigen difference (warning : I am a novice on this subject ; however, it seems to be an important point for some of the commenters here, so you could begin by discussing it and if possible explain it simply to beginners ?)
- the thimerosal ban leading to most vaccines now being in single dose vial (thus not needing thimerosal to avoid fungal contamination)

To you , the writer.

What an utterly embarrassing moment in time for your career.

Your ability to communicate is 'quackery." Sorry you don't have the gift. Stick to painting shelves. Maybe you'll grow some empathy for wood.

By Olivia Maxwell (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Kathleen Dickson,

Yall should read what we are saying, actually – quoting the CDC and NIH, mainly -, instead of the mangled version of what this “Science Blog” person says we are saying. This report by this person, above, Orac, made no sense whatsoever, scientifically, but yall bought that brainscramble. Hilarious.

I have read what you are saying. My scientific education was in the UK, a long way from the CDC and NIH, yet Orac's post made perfect sense to me while the article by Beaux Reliosis is clearly nonsense. For example, she claims that thimerosal was added to vaccines to prevent fungal growth, which is true, but it was never added to vaccines that use attenuated pathogens because the thimerosal would kill them. That means her claim that the removal of thimerosal led to fungal contamination that caused immunosuppression that further led to reactivation of the vaccine pathogens is simply impossible. The only vaccines that contained thimerosal were killed viruses that could not be reactivated.

That alone tells me that Beaux Reliosis doesn't understand what she is writing about.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Actually she does understand what she is saying and writes her own stuff. Please see the update on this matter on ActionLyme.org. This person, Orac, scrambled the whole blog post, and no one here could see it, LOL. That says no one here is really a scientist. But thanks for the cranked up web traffic, LOL.

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

1953 IV. THE RELATIONSHIP OF EPERYTHROZOON COCCOIDES TO THE HEPATITIS VIRUS OF PRINCETON MICE
"In Swiss mice, animals with high natural resistance to hepatitis virus, the pathogenicity of this agent was markedly enhanced by combined infection with eperythrozoa. Eperythrozoa were maintained throughout 18 successive passages in normal Princeton and Swiss weanlings with intact spleens. The combined infection of Princeton mice with eperythrozoa and the virus component of Gledhill, Dick, and Andrewes, which is nearly inactive when injected alone, resulted in acute hepatitis with fatal outcome."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2136329/?tool=pubmed

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

2012, Dec, NYTimes; Doctors admit Thimerosal is put in vaccines to prevent fungi:

Vaccine Rule Is Said to Hurt Health Efforts
"But a proposal that the ban include thimerosal, which has been used since the 1930s to prevent bacterial and fungal contamination in multidose vials of vaccines, has drawn strong criticism from pediatricians…. They say that the ethyl-mercury compound is critical for vaccine use in the developing world, where multidose vials are a mainstay…Banning it would require switching to single-dose vials for vaccines, which would cost far more and require new networks of cold storage facilities and additional capacity for waste disposal, the authors of the articles said.'"
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/health/experts-say-thimerosal-ban-wou…;

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Happy now? More at ActionLyme.org

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

And now, if you like, you can go to the CDC's own page on Thimerosal and read they stopped using it in children's vaccines in allegedly 2001. Now, have autism cases skyrocketed since? Is that an article in the NYTimes about Thimerosal preventing LYMErix (fungal antigens)?
I get traffic from all over the world and so does Beaux, so, thanks for trashing us. It has brought a lot of attention to the science revealed mainly by the CDC and NIH about what is the problem with vaccines. Not to mention, IDSA agrees with us, LMAO.

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Thimerosal withheld from vaccines because it would destroy the live virus would allow fungal growth...fungus leads to immune suppression..allowing the virus to cause disease rather than immunity...how hard is it to understand this. Are you aware that it is highly recommended that anyone with a compromised immune system steer clear of a person that has been recently vaccinated? If Brucella abortus is a cross species disease and is also a live attenuated vaccine, therefore does not contain Thimerosal and the heifer is immunocompromised she will acquire the disease as opposed to immunity and she will be contagious. It's pretty simple to understand the biology, I don't see what the problem is here

Oh, goody. It appears that someone must have posted a link to this post on a quack or antivax forum or website somewhere. Let the fun continue!

@Kathleen Dickson: no, not happy and no, I won't waste my time going back to ActionLyme.org. Firstly because "chronic Lyme" doesn't exist. Secondly, because I won't waste my time when you post articles that are OLDER THAN I AM (FFS - and I am over 50) and don't seem to know what follow up studies have shown. And lastly, because we KNOW thimerosal was in multidose vials to prevent fungal or bacterial infection from reusing the vial (i.e. sticking a needle into it multiple times to withdraw a dose). This is nothing new to people with real medical training.

Also - again - most vaccines in the US and other first-world countries are in single dose vials and don't need any thimerosal. You have been told this. The NYT article *specifically* mentions the developing world, where you don't have reliable electricity for refrigeration of vaccines.

Now, please, you and the web site should come into the 21st century and actually read what articles say, and update some of your other references.

"I get traffic from all over the world and so does Beaux, so, thanks for trashing us. It has brought a lot of attention to the science revealed mainly by the CDC and NIH about what is the problem with vaccines. Not to mention, IDSA agrees with us, LMAO."

I thought the IDSA was the Great Satan when it comes to the chronic Lyme crowd - so citing them in support seems a bit odd.

If the intent is to suggest that the IDSA is anti-vaccine, that's 180 degrees from the truth. For example:

"People with compromised immune systems–such as those with cancer, HIV infection and Crohn’s disease–are especially vulnerable to illness and most should receive the flu shot and other vaccinations, notes a new guideline released by the Infectious Diseases Society of America (IDSA). Vaccination rates tend to be lower in patients with compromised immune systems in part because their physicians may be concerned about safety and effectiveness.

http://www.idsociety.org/2013_Immunocompromised_Guideline/
http://www.idsociety.org/Immunization_Policy/

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Cheryl: did you actually read the article about the cow? And are you aware that birth is really messy and there are a lot of body fluids flying around? Also that the heifer was given the dose for a calf who should not have been pregnant, not a pregnant cow? It's not too surprising the humans became ill. But it's a very rare occurrence.

Immunosuppresssed persons only need to avoid people given LIVE VIRUS vaccines, because those do have a potential for shedding - like oral polio virus. Most vaccines are killed bacteria or simply bacterial antigens, and you can't shed those. So I could get a flu shot, TDaP, and many other vaccines and go to work in a cancer unit. I wouldn't be shedding any viruses.

Geez. It's too early in the morning and I haven't had enough coffee to deal with these uneducated, Google U graduates.

Cheryl,

Thimerosal withheld from vaccines because it would destroy the live virus would allow fungal growth…fungus leads to immune suppression..allowing the virus to cause disease rather than immunity…how hard is it to understand this.

Thimerosal has not been "withheld" from attenuated vaccines. No live vaccine has ever been preserved using thimerosal because it would kill the viruses or bacteria. How hard is it to understand this?

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

She knows the difference between a virus and bacteria but what your not reading is that some bacteria drop fungal blebs to disable the immune system.

The "chronic Lyme" crowd is quite the source of garbled science-speak, even better than the anti-vaxxers.

Are poor Cheryl and Kathleen still labouring under the delusion that thiomerosal was removed from vaccines and then nothing done to ensure sterility?

By Science Mom (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

@Kathleen Dickson

None of the articles you posted, nor any of your own comments, have shown that removing thimerosal somehow reactivates killed bacteria or somehow reconstitutes whole viruses from the parts used in non "live" viral vaccines. As others have said, live attenuated viral vaccines (e.g., MMR) never had thimerosal in them, so the removal of thimerosal from childhood vaccines c. 2001 would have no effect on the LAV vaccines.

It's also known that fungal contamination of vaccines results in some rather rapid and dramatic effects (e.g., death) that do not, in any way, resemble autism. So if you are correct, and that fungal contamination is rampant, then we should be seeing a whole lot of very serious reactions, including lots of deaths, following vaccination. That being the case, what is your evidence of fungal contamination of vaccines to the degree you seem to claim?

Thimerosal has not been “withheld” from attenuated vaccines. No live vaccine has ever been preserved using thimerosal because it would kill the viruses or bacteria. How hard is it to understand this?

Good grief and along with this delusion? And they wonder why they're relegated to the crank0sphere.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

She knows the difference between a virus and bacteria but what your not reading is that some bacteria drop fungal blebs to disable the immune system.

Well, good on her for virus vs bacteria categorization.
Now, if you could get the same success with fungus vs bacteria categorization, we indeed would be happy.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

“Amanda Jezek, the vice president of Public Policy and Government Relations at the Infectious Diseases Society of America (IDSA), in Arlington, Va., said there is concern that this push to recommend a vaccine before the ACIP has reviewed the evidence would completely “jeopardize the integrity of ACIP’s recommendations.”

“Most of the vaccinations given in this country are received by those younger than 2 years of age, so assuring the safety and efficacy of vaccines is paramount. Every year, more than 40 million vaccines are given to children younger than 1 year of age, usually between 2 and 6 months of age, Dr. Temte said. At this age, infants are at greatest risk for certain serious medical adverse events, including high fevers, seizures and sudden infant death syndrome, according to the U.S. Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System. Therefore, it is important for the ACIP to consider carefully the risks versus the benefits before making a recommendation rather than be on a forced schedule that suits the manufacturer as opposed to the patient."
http://pharmacypracticenews.com/ViewArticle.aspx?d=Web%2BExclusives&d_i…

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Someone appears to be off of their meds - and exhibiting a complete lack of understanding of basic immunology....

@Kathleen Dickson

That quote from Amanda Jezek does not support your claim that thimerosal removal led to increased autism, nor that fungal contamination causes autism. She is merely stating that when a vaccine is placed on the schedule, it should only be done after careful evaluation of the risks and benefits of the vaccine to ensure the safety of the children receiving them. This is not controversial, but it does not support your position.

Ms. Dickson, what does this barf-up of unrelated vaccine articles have to do with your claims and support of Reliosis' same ridiculous claims?

By Science Mom (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

I have to call something out in Dickson's latest comment.

At this age, infants are at greatest risk for certain serious medical adverse events, including high fevers, seizures and sudden infant death syndrome, according to the U.S. Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System.

1) Just because something is reported to VAERS doesn't mean it was caused by a vaccine. Adverse events often occur by random chance.
2) SIDS is mentioned in the comment, yet thorough investigation has revealed a negative correlation between vaccination and SIDS. Children vaccinated according to the schedule have a lower risk of developing SIDS.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Thimerosal is put in vaccines to prevent fungi, because fungal antigens injected together with live attentuated viruses is not a good thing (immunosuppression). This is simple.

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Doctors were giving babies with cold viruses antibiotics in order to prevent the well-known secondary opportunistic bacterial infections that cause otitis.
In the 1918 Spanish Flu pandemic, the people died from the secondary pneumonia/mycoplasma/mycobacteria (fungal). Not from the flu virus. Synergy, again.
The CDC has published that immune suppressed kids like kids with AIDS should not get live attenuated virus vaccines, but fully heat killed ones. There are 3 examples right off the top of our heads and everyone knows about these phenomena. Everyone has seen this synergy in their own lives and experience.

If yall want to say none of that is true, then yall are insane. These are facts.

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Thimerosal is put in vaccines to prevent fungi, because fungal antigens injected together with live attentuated viruses is not a good thing (immunosuppression). This is simple.

It should be yet here you are oblivious to the obvious. Let's try this, how can thiomersal prevent fungal contamination but not viral "contamination?

By Science Mom (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

No one said this, who I know:
"It should be yet here you are oblivious to the obvious. Let’s try this, how can thiomersal prevent fungal contamination but not viral “contamination?"

Why would anyone go to the trouble of lying about the data we present? Seems petty and juvenile. Anyway, this fight has done wonders for our web traffic, so thank you very much for calling attention to the matter, worldwide.

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

You didn't answer the question Ms. Dickson. I don't think you're lying, just wrong. Can you provide any evidence whatsoever that say MMR and OPV ever contained thiomersal? Why are you dodging?

As for your increased traffic, you may want to consider it morbid curiosity in a train-wreck sort of way.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Kathleen Dickson,

Thimerosal is put in vaccines to prevent fungi, because fungal antigens injected together with live attentuated viruses is not a good thing (immunosuppression). This is simple.

How many times do I have to state this? No vaccine made with live attenuated viruses has ever contained thimerosal. There is no preservative in MMR, for example, because it is made with live attenuated viruses, so a preservative would kill them rendering the vaccine useless. Fungal contamination of the cultures is prevented by using sterile techniques, and is extremely obvious if it occurs.

Doctors were giving babies with cold viruses antibiotics in order to prevent the well-known secondary opportunistic bacterial infections that cause otitis.
In the 1918 Spanish Flu pandemic, the people died from the secondary pneumonia/mycoplasma/mycobacteria (fungal). Not from the flu virus. Synergy, again.

I suspect someone's been reading Janine Roberts execrable 'Fear of the Invisible'. That hypothesis was current during the epidemic and subsequently abandoned, though like many pieces of ancient, abandoned, erroneous, medical detritus has been resurrected by cranks like Roberts and at whale.to. Influenza kills perfectly well on its own through cytokine storm as well as by making people susceptible to secondary infections. None of this supports your claims at all. BTW, mycoplasma and mycobacteria are not fungi; the 'myco' prefix is because they resemble fungi macroscopically.

The CDC has published that immune suppressed kids like kids with AIDS should not get live attenuated virus vaccines, but fully heat killed ones.

So? People with immunosuppression may be vulnerable even to attenuated viruses, though very rarely. I see no evidence for immunosuppression in vaccine recipients, much less evidence of fungal contamination.

There are 3 examples right off the top of our heads and everyone knows about these phenomena. Everyone has seen this synergy in their own lives and experience.

What synergy? If there really was widespread fungal contamination of vaccines it could indeed cause serious problems. I see absolutely no evidence at all that this is occurring.

If yall want to say none of that is true, then yall are insane. These are facts.

The claims about influenza are not facts, and the facts you have stated do not support your claims.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Someone stole an apostrophe from my comment.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

@ Krebiozen:

Agreed about Janine Roberts. What crap!

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Vaccine Rule Is Said to Hurt Health Efforts
"But a proposal that the ban include thimerosal, which has been used since the 1930s to prevent bacterial and fungal contamination in multidose vials of vaccines, has drawn strong criticism from pediatricians…. They say that the ethyl-mercury compound is critical for vaccine use in the developing world, where multidose vials are a mainstay…Banning it would require switching to single-dose vials for vaccines, which would cost far more and require new networks of cold storage facilities and additional capacity for waste disposal, the authors of the articles said.'"
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/health/experts-say-thimerosal-ban-wou…;

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

I think that is pretty clear. That NYTimes article. Says fungal contamination could be bad, and they they would have to resort to single dose vials to prevent contamination.

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Here is more on fungal-antigen induced immunosuppression and NIH's own Post SEPSIS Syndrome *DATA*:
http://www.actionlyme.org/151026_OCCAMS_RAZOR.htm
See for yourselves if fungal antigens cause immunosuppression and a resultant activation of latent viruses. Cheers. You know who to argue with if you don't like that published data :D

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Denice,
It's a shame since IIRC Roberts did some good work exposing the abuse of diamond workers in South Africa. She seems to have swallowed the antivax and the HIVAIDS lines whole and completely uncritically.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Ms. Dickson, no it isn't clear. Where is any evidence that MMR and OPV e.g. have ever had thiomersal? Surely with all of your "research" you have something substantial.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

"Patients receiving immunosuppressive therapy. This contraindication does not apply to patients who are receiving corticosteroids as replacement therapy, e.g., for Addison's disease. Individuals with blood dyscrasias, leukemia, lymphomas of any type, or other malignant neoplasms
affecting the bone marrow or lymphatic systems.
*** Primary and acquired*** immunodeficiency states, including patients who are immunosuppressed in association with AIDS or other clinical manifestations of infection with human immunodeficiency viruses;{41-43} cellular immune deficiencies; and hypogammaglobulinemic and dysgammaglobulinemic
states. Measles inclusion body encephalitis{44} (MIBE), pneumonitis{45} ****and death as a direct consequence of disseminated measles vaccine virus infection have been reported in immunocompromised individuals inadvertently vaccinated with measles-containing vaccine.****"
https://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr_ii/mmr_ii_pi.pdf

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Yes, thank you - no preservative. That is what we are saying is the issue. Contamination, vaccinating kids with live attenuated viruses without knowing the kids' immune status, etc. Yes, that is our argument. The kids are getting the viruses, which is causing the brain damage we call Autism.

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Right it NEVER contained preservatives you dumbass because it's a live virus and is in single use syringes. That's how you get around the whole preservative, which is needed for MULTIDOSE vials.

Thank goodness your stupidity is so obvious that even the most hopeless of anti-vaxxer won't latch onto it.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Kathleen Dickson,
Now you are complaining that MMR doesn't have thimerosal in it, when if it did it would render it useless? That's nuts.

I think that is pretty clear. That NYTimes article. Says fungal contamination could be bad, and they they would have to resort to single dose vials to prevent contamination.

You still miss the point. Live vaccines do not have and have never had thimerosal in them. There is no problem with fungal contamination of live vaccines. A fungally contaminated vaccine would be full of mycelia and it would stink, which would have been blindingly obvious during manufacture (since cell cultures are full of lovely nutrients that fungi love) and equally obvious when the vial was opened.

Here is more on fungal-antigen induced immunosuppression and NIH’s own Post SEPSIS Syndrome *DATA*:

That page times out for me. I don't doubt that some fungal antigens can lead to immunosuppression. What I do doubt is that there are any such fungal antigens in any vaccines. Where is your evidence for this?

See for yourselves if fungal antigens cause immunosuppression and a resultant activation of latent viruses. Cheers. You know who to argue with if you don’t like that published data ?

This is ridiculous. Where is your evidence that vaccines contain fungal antigens that cause immmunosuppression? It should be easy to demonstrate, just get hold of a vial of MMR and have it analyzed. Until you have done so I suggest you stop spreading unfounded fear and doubt about an health intervention that has saved and continues to save thousands of lives.

The kids are getting the viruses, which is causing the brain damage we call Autism.

Yet a few decades ago almost every child suffered measles, mumps, rubella and chicken pox, which are far more dangerous than the vaccine. Autism rates must surely have been far higher back then...

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Thank you, yes I am a dumbass, for thinking I needed to show how kids are getting the very viruses the vaccines are intended to prevent, when it was right there in the Merck MMR monograph all along. Huh, you are right, I am a dumbass.

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Just like Beaux's blog post. Huh, we're both dumbasses, all we needed to do was show where the MONOGRAPH says the kids are getting the brain damaging viruses at too young an age and too many at once, like IDSA says, too!!!

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Dickson, where are all these vaccine-derived epidemics then?

Of course the lack of preservative has been in the package insert all along...

Because it's never been there in the single dose vials. Dumbass for sure. Is this your new schtick since you can't harass public officials about fictional Chronic Lyme anymore?

By Science Mom (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Kathleen: Would you trust your car repairs to someone who doesn't know what an engine is?

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSaf…

"At concentrations found in vaccines, thimerosal meets the requirements for a preservative as set forth by the United States Pharmacopeia; that is, it kills the specified challenge organisms and is able to prevent the growth of the challenge fungi (U.S. Pharmacopeia 2004)."

Therefore it was correct to say Thimerosal was put in vaccines to prevent LYMErix, Yale non-Lyme vaccine, LMAO.

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

?? What is OspA, then?
If you can answer that question, we really have concluded the conversation.
Oh, and if you don't know what OspA is, then kindly don't attack me, since that is a worn out technique, petty and juvenile.
http://www.actionlyme.org

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

They also don't put witch-repellent in their single-dose vaccine vials. Does that mean black magic is responsible?

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

What does the Oklahoma Society of Accountants have to do with anything? That's what I got what looking up OSPA.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

If you can answer that question, we really have concluded the conversation.
Good because that was already done several comments ago.

This should be so easy for you to answer but yet you continue to dodge. Please explain the mechanism by which thiomersal, a broad-spectrum preservative selectively prevents fungal contamination but not any other microbial contamination?

By Science Mom (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

You might want to ask what is the mechanism by which fungi are particularly bad to inject into people. :D

(And, then,... welcome to Lyme Cryme land !!)

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Clear?

Only if I had my head shoved as far up my arse as yours appears to be.

Explain the mechanism. Go ahead. Show me your brilliance and competence.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

There is a form letter at the bottom of that page in case you don't like any of that published science and take issue with it.

Just modify it for your own particular complaint towards those scientists and what they have to say... and send it to them:

http://www.actionlyme.org/151026_OCCAMS_RAZOR.htm

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

I'm not going onto your brain-dead crank site.

Perhaps someone can explain something to me though and we see this with every crank who shows up with their own pet theory of autism aetiology. How can you ask a direct question, using simple straight-forward language that's central to their claim but they won't answer? It never ceases to amaze me how people can do that?

By Science Mom (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

What is OspA, then?
If you can answer that question, we really have concluded the conversation.

It's a surface protein of the bacterium (not fungus) Borrelia burgdorferi. In LYMErix vaccine, they used a different bacterium (again, not a fungus), Escherichia coli. LYMErix also only came in single-dose vials, not multi-dose, eliminating the need for a preservative in the final vaccine product. This info is all available in the product prescribing info.

That NYTimes article. Says fungal contamination could be bad, and they they would have to resort to single dose vials to prevent contamination.

Yes, fungal contamination is bad, because it has a very high risk of death. So, again, for your and Beaux Reliosis' ideas to be correct (that fungal contamination of vaccine due to the lack of thimerosal is why there are so many autism cases), then we would also have to be seeing a whole lot of deaths due to vaccines following the removal of thimerosal. We aren't seeing that, nor are we seeing any increases in other non-fatal consequences of fungal contamination of vaccine.

And, again, fungus getting injected into one's body produces rather different signs and symptoms than what one sees in autism.

Oh, and also note, which you also repeated, that they have to change to single dose vials to prevent contamination. So again, the onus would be on you to demonstrate that single-dose vials of vaccines are contaminated with fungus.

I certainly recommend that she visit the folks over at AoA & see how her song and dance plays with them......ought to be fun to watch.

wow....they have really moved the goalposts here. All the way to the other end zone.

Sure, it would be fun, but I'd think that there's a 75% chance that AoA wouldn't even allow such a comment thru moderation, and if they did, they wouldn't allow much, if any, response to the howling that would arise from denizens of AoA. It would be very short-lived entertainment, if it even happened.

Oh, I know - would never see the light of day....but I would pay good money if she at least tried....

There seems to be a logic fail going on here. Perhaps this will help, though I doubt it.

Fungi and the chemicals they produce can suppress the immune system. This is true.

Live attenuated vaccines have no preservatives to prevent fungal contamination. This is also true.

Therefore vaccines contain fungal chemicals that produce immunosuppression thereby making the subject vulnerable to the attenuated pathogens in the vaccine. This is not true, it is a non sequitur, the conclusion does not follow from its premises.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Here's another way to explain it: I do not have an iron nail buried under my front door's frame. Does that mean there are elves in my house?

Likewise, a like of anti-fungal agents does not prove the existence of a fungus with properties not seen in any known fungus, nor its presence in vaccines.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

How can you ask a direct question, using simple straight-forward language that’s central to their claim but they won’t answer?

The same thought process that leads them to reference a perfectly sound piece of scientific research that has absolutely nothing to do with their argument.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

There seems to be a logic fail going on here.

Is this an example of typical British understatement?

By shay simmons (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

@ Krebiozen

There seems to be a logic fail going on here.

Ms Dickson - as well as Beaux Reliosis - is missing something else in her logic train:
Contamination of multidose vials doesn't happen during production (aside an egregious mistake), but at some point when the vial is opened for one dose to be retrieved.

You know, microbiologists have tricks to be sure that a vial of some biological concoction contains only one species of micro-organism, alive or dead. Viruses and very small bacteria like mycoplasmes could be more difficult to avoid, but again there are tricks to get rid of those.
And as I already said, contamination by fungi at the production level cannot exactly be ignored. Try ignoring bread mold. Or a very advanced French cheese.

In other words, properly manufactured vials are perfectly free of fungus molecules until after their first use.
Obviously, contamination is only a risk for something which is going to be re-used. Single-use items are not (or should not).

@ Kathleen Dickson

the issue is synergy. TLR2 agonists, TLR4 agonists… injected at the same time as live attenuated viruses:

Could you explain again how having the TLR2/TLR4 pathways being activated is a bad thing while having a vaccine injected?

I would have thought that telling the immune system that foreign substances are floating around to be a good thing in these circumstances.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

I'm still trying to wrap my head around fungal infections somehow cause autism when injected with vaccines. But methinks that Ms Dickson is just looking for site hits so they have a little more holiday spending money. I'm not going to her site again.

Hallucinated any more panthers on I-95 lately, Kathleen?

shay simmons,

Is this an example of typical British understatement?

Yup :-) My understatement is partly an attempt at dry humor, but mostly I'm trying to avoid being rude. Even so, sometimes I fail when these muppets particularly irritate me. This particular claim doesn't even make sense within its own frame of erroneous beliefs. How can anyone fail to see that?

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Oh, that's -beautiful- I always knew we'd reach this point some day, but I never dreamed it would be so soon.

I fear we are not going to get very far with Kathleen Dickson, for a whole range of reasons, not least of which is that despite having it explained (with links) at least a dozen times, Kathleen is still struggling with the notion that the OspA protein is from a bacterium, not a fungus.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Kathleen Dickson's comments remind me of the quote attributed* to Samuel Johnson, tweaked slightly: her statements are both true and relevant; but the parts that are true aren't relevant, and the parts that are relevant aren't true.

*Erroneously, apparently.

So this is about a protein from the outer coat of the lyme spirochete that was turned into a vaccine using genetically engineered E. Coli and then taken off the market partly because some cranks decided, despite evidence to the contrary, that it caused arthritis. Other cranks are now convinced, for reasons that escape me, that this protein is fungal in origin (it isn't), and that it is present in other vaccines due to fungal contamination (it isn't) which occurs inevitably if single-dose vaccines are not preserved with thimerosal (it doesn't), suppresses recipients' immune systems and causes autism (it doesn't). Is that more or less the size of it?

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Is that more or less the size of it?

I suspect that "other cranks" should be singular. Kathleen also believes that Lyme is a brain disease to which her own issues can be ascribed.

^ Oh, and the imaginary immune suppression is the result of "agonizing" TLRs.

^^ I'm not going dumpster diving to see whether it gets to T. Rex Reg.

Is that more or less the size of it?

Cranks have no problem believing 3 impossible things before breakfast.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Actually Ms. Dickson is correct. ALL vaccines are infectious because you all already have Epstein Borreliosis AIDS gene sharing stealth infinite antigenic variation.
http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5147&start=20

Killing people with real AIDS called hundreds of SYNDROMES, PSYCH, CANCERS and ADDICTIONS has never been easier or more profitable! You even get to pay for everything!

By Mel Thornburg (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Kathleen is still struggling with the notion that the OspA protein is from a bacterium, not a fungus.

Oopsie. I'm certain you just mis-typed this and bears repeating that Ms. Dickson believes just the opposite.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Oopsie. I’m certain you just mis-typed this and bears repeating that Ms. Dickson believes just the opposite.

No, it was what I intended to write. Ms. Dickson is struggling with reality. She believes the opposite of what I wrote.

Perhaps I was being a bit too clever and confused some readers.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

They're not regular old "bacteria." They are their own phylum and shedders of FUNGAL antigens. You might have even heard the term exosomes. Oh, maybe not, since no one here is an actual scientist.

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

I am sure you have seen Crazy Eddie's fake whistleblower letter to Senator Goldwater. Clearly he had no idea you can't make a vaccine out of a fungal antigen nor that the nature of the relapse in relapsing fever was antigenic variation. TOO FUNNY for a guy who made his career out of trashing other people.
http://www.actionlyme.org/GOLDWATER_LETTER.htm

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Spirochaetes[pronunciation?] (also spelled spirochetes) belong to a phylum of distinctive diderm (double-membrane) bacteria, most of which have long, helically coiled (corkscrew-shaped) cells.[1] Spirochaetes are chemoheterotrophic in nature, with lengths between 5 and 250 µm and diameters around 0.1–0.6 µm.[citation needed]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirochaete

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Always an excellent source, but you can use plain old wikipedia since yall are on that level:

An NIH patent, explaining how Lyme causes LYMErix-disease:

"The invention relates to novel antigens associated with Borrelia burgdorferi which are exported (or shed) in vivo and whose detection is a means of diagnosing Lyme disease. The antigens are extracellular membrane vesicles and other bioproducts including the major extracellular protein antigen. Another object of the invention is to provide antibodies, monoclonal and/or polyclonal, labeled and/or unlabeled, that are raised against the antigens. A further object of the invention is to provide a method of diagnosing Lyme disease by detecting the antigens in a biological sample taken from a host using the antibodies in conventional immunoassay formats. Another object of the invention is to provide kits, for the diagnosis of Lyme disease, comprising the antibodies and ancillary reagents. The advantage of the antibodies used in the invention is that they react with the antigens from geographically diverse strains of Borrelia burgdorferi, but do not react with antigens from related Borrelia spirochetes."
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PAL…

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

#237 @Kathleen Dickson

"They’re not regular old “bacteria.” They are their own phylum.."

Are you saying that this particular phylum is different than all of the other bacteria phyla?

Please explain what you mean by "shedders of fungal antigens?

Hey, Kathleen, your site's link to van Maren et al. has the wrong PMID.

Could you tidy that up?

They’re not regular old “bacteria.” They are their own phylum and shedders of FUNGAL antigens.

Depending on the classification scheme adopted, Spirochaetes are one of the 21 phyla within the kingdom of Bacteria or the domain of Bacteria. They are not that special and are regular old bacteria in the same way that Firmicutes or Actinobacteria are.

Fungi are a whole different kingdom or domain, depending on preference. Bacteria do not shed fungal antigens, not even in all caps.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

^ P.S. Kathleen, are you familiar with George Hammond?

Because I'm really fond of this song. Maybe we could find a common ground. Are there any songs about you?

Aww, darn, Chris, I was so looking forward to hearing how Ms. Dickson would manage to answer to my questions.

^^ P.P.S. It's OK if you never rose to the level of having a song. Surely, though, there must be at least be something akin to the Monster Truck Neutopians, right?

I mean, given all your time spent on Usenet, it would be pretty freaking sad if your personal crankery never even managed some sort of tribute.

P.P.P.S. That whole ZoneAlarm story really needs to be fleshed out.

If OspA is a fungal antigen (as the belief system would have it), inquiring minds are wondering which are the fungi that express it?

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Epstein Borreliosis AIDS gene sharing stealth infinite antigenic variation

.

Calenture fritillary hatstand. Ideas. Colourless. Sleeping furiously.

I'm going to go out on a limb and hazard a guess that these Lyme-delusion Munchausen nutbars believe that Mycoplasmas are fungal. And that Shyh-Ching Lo's 30-year-old invention of an imaginary mycoplasma (M. incognitus)-- detectable by no-one else -- as the cause of ME/CFS, comes into the whole ball of hair too.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

I know this is likely to prove futile, but for some odd reason I feel compelled to try and provide Ms. Dickson with the context she seems to be missing, judging by the way the comments have gone right over her head.

The basic taxonomic ranks are domain > kingdom > phylum > class > order > family > genus > species. Bacteria and fungi are in different domains - they are as different from one another as two living organisms can possibly be. The domain of bacteria only has one kingdom - also bacteria (you can throw a few extra vowels on the end if you think the Latin makes it sound more science-y.) The kingdom of bacteria has about 30 - 50 phyla (depending on who you ask), one of which is spirochettes. All of these bacteria phyla are much, much more similar to one another than they are to fungi - that's the whole idea behind the taxonomic hierarchy.

However, this is all just an educational aside - the real crux of the matter is that none of what you've posted so far provides evidence that Borrelia burgdorferi, the causative agent of Lyme disease, expresses fungal antigens in any way, including extracellular vesicles (or "exosomes," if you prefer.) The patent you refer to in comment #241, for example, is for a method to detect B. burgdorferi antigens in biological samples using specific antibodies - a standard diagnostic technique used to diagnose many types of infections. There's no mention of fungi or fungal antigens anywhere in it; frankly, I'm at a complete loss to understand how you could possibly have interpreted it (or anything else you've posted) as evidence that B. burgdorferi sheds fungal antigens, let alone that this somehow supports the idea that autism is caused by fungal contamination of live-attenuated vaccines.

Although I have a better than average science education, it's a bit dated. When did "domain" get added to the taxonomic hierarchy?

Should we add a "Did" and a "?" to "King Phylum calls on Fat George's Sister".?

@ Meg - According to Wikipedia, the "Woese system," including the three domains (bacteria, archaea, and eukaryotes) was introduced in 1990. I guess textbooks were a bit slow to catch up, though - I took AP biology my senior year of high school (2001), and I still remember the official pneumonic, "King Phillip Cried Out For Good Soup," as well as the unauthorized version, "Kyle Plays Chess On Friendly Girls' Stomachs."

Maybe we could make it "Dear King Phillip." Or, depending on your attitude towards monarchy, how about "Dastardly King Phillip?"

“King Phylum calls on Fat George’s Sister”.

See now the mnemonic I have lodged into my brain due to a certain short-lived (but fabulous) TV series is, "Please Come Over For Gay Sex." No "K" apparently because Kingdom is just a given. If Narad doesn't know the series I'm referring to, I'm going to weep.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Oh no way, this is too good to be true:
"Dickson Kathleen Please Come Over For Gay Sex."

By Science Mom (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

I think Science Mom just won an Internet.

Thanks Sarah A; usually I just kill threads with those kinds of comments.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

If OspA is a fungal antigen (as the belief system would have it), inquiring minds are wondering which are the fungi that express it?

You Don't Understand:

"Amazingly, the OspA vaccines were fungal antigens (or TLR2-agonists which means high fat content or lipidated or fungal)...."

I'm reminded of a time many years ago when a friend reported some NOI guy saying something along the lines of "no, you see, 'semite' comes from 'semi-'...."

An NIH patent, explaining how Lyme causes LYMErix-disease:

**does not compute**

I'm starting to think Kathleen Dickson went to the same immunology school as the not lamented Th1Th2.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Good work, all. Thank you and good night. For the time being.

Fungi are a whole different kingdom or domain, depending on preference. Bacteria do not shed fungal antigens, not even in all caps

They must work by the same scientific principle that allows us mammals to shed crocodile tears. Sorry. CROCODILE tears.

It was a useful war with the "no-scienceblogs," "Orac," et al, since we learned that Merck and the FDA were all along arguing the same things we are arguing: Thimerosal and neomycin are put in vaccines to prevent fungi, like LYMErix, and that *** the children are getting the viruses instead of the protection (see our mission statement from July 2014).*** And IDSA agrees, too, with our position.
We can't anticipate what will happen next, since now we have 5 independent sources (the NIH, Merck, the FDA, IDSA and the CDC) who all explain the same model we are explaining as the mechanism of Post-SEPSIS Lyme, LYMErix, CFIDS/Fibro, and the Autism pandemic:

http://www.actionlyme.org

It's no mystery. It's all right there. You can't inject people with fungi and not have a bad outcome, but that was LYMErix, or OspA, or Pam3Cys - a fungal antigen. The crooks said it was a "vaccine," but Thimerosal was put in vaccines to prevent LYMErix, if you can believe we are at war with such stupid people.

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 10 Dec 2015 #permalink

Looks like Kathleen Dickson is declaring victory by taking the ball and going home.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 11 Dec 2015 #permalink

No, I am using this information, as it is always good to have to many extra sources:
http://www.actionlyme.org
We can use the MMR monograph where it says kids are getting the viruses, and that fungi like LYMErix is a bad thing due to the immunosuppression.
No, I have this link to this thread/blog at the top of my website so everyone can see how people argue with no facts. Petty and Juvenile.

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 11 Dec 2015 #permalink

"Dear Mom Who Thinks I Need to Vaccinate My Kids Against Measles

"Right… 1. There is no way to assess the immune status of kids before pumping them full of “vaccine” junk."
http://badlymeattitude.com/2015/01/28/dear-mom-who-thinks-i-need-to-vac…

So, Merck says she is right, so there you go. First thing she says is there is no way to know your kid's immune status before whacking them with un-followed vaccines, which even IDSA agrees with. Cheers.

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 11 Dec 2015 #permalink

so everyone can see how people argue with no facts.

You are arguing with the mirror, dude.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 11 Dec 2015 #permalink

Just for any lurker:

There is no way to assess the immune status of kids

Actually, there is. Blood antibody titration.
Won't tell you if the level of antibodies is protective; but under a certain threshold (say, you don't detect any), you can be pretty certain the person doesn't have a good protection.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 11 Dec 2015 #permalink

fungi like LYMErix

Hey this is all I need to know.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 11 Dec 2015 #permalink

If the antibody response is turned off due to endotoxin or fungal toxin tolerance, obviously you can't use antibody methods for anything, and even the CDC and IDSA agree. You probably should look up what a fungal antigen is, but here are some fellows (and ladies like Baumgarth et al) you might learn something from:

HP Redmond
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Redmond+HP+and+tlr2

Baumgarth
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Baumgarth+and+borrelia

Barthold
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Barthold+and+borrelia

NIH's Martin and Marques
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Martin+and+Marques+and+tlr2 (<<The NIH's "Lyme and MS" Division find that OspA-ish lipopropteins shed by borrelia all the time cause humoral immunosuppression with brain inflammation)

CV Harding
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Harding+CV+and+tlr2

AE Medvedev
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Medvedev+AE+and+tlr2

RS Hotchkiss
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Hotchkiss+RS%5BAuthor%5D

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 11 Dec 2015 #permalink

We got Merck, the CDC, IDSA, the FDA and the NIH agreeing with us. And if you know anything about endotoxin tolerance - use the NIH, they know - you can't use antibody methods for anything, particularly when it is about post sepsis from FUNGAL ANTIGENS like LYMErix.

So this is all good, great fight. No one here knows what they are talking about whether it is vaccines, fungi, TLR2/TLR1- agonist tolerance, antibodies, endotoxin tolerance, Lyme, LYMErix, Pam3Cys, *** what is a phylum,*** etc. LMAO.

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 11 Dec 2015 #permalink

Okay. Kathleen Dickson has to be a Poe. LYMErix is a fungus? And here I thought it was the brand name of a vaccine that uses bacterial antigens.

Careful getting your flu shots, everyone! You might come down with LYMErix (apparently, it's also a disease, not just a fungus).

Kathleen, seriously. Just stop talking and go take some basic biology courses at your local community college. Either that, or seek out psychiatric counseling. I don't mean that as an insult. Seriously. Get some help.

Kathleen- The difference between a bacteria and a fungus is the same level as the difference between plant and animal. Claiming that a bacterium shed fungal antigens is as nonsensical as claiming cats produce fruit.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 11 Dec 2015 #permalink

Well, no, I put all this on my website - at the top, front and center. Any real scientist who is reading it will see who the real scientist is.
http://www.actionlyme.org
This Orac person just out-ed himself as not a real scientist for the whole world to see. And everyone can see what kinds of comments you people make. Not scientific and no science backup - just your attacks on my character.

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 11 Dec 2015 #permalink

The crooks said it was a “vaccine,” but Thimerosal was put in vaccines to prevent LYMErix, if you can believe we are at war with such stupid people.

In what universe does this sentence even remotely make sense, and I'm referring to the English, not just the science.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 11 Dec 2015 #permalink

Ah...my question is answered. In the same universe where pointing out the difference between a bacteria and a fungus is character assassination.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 11 Dec 2015 #permalink

Kathleen- You must be reading a different thread, because we explained the science to you repeatedly. A bacterium and a fungus are two different things entirely. An absence of fungicide does not mean fungus is present. And anyone can put up a website:
http://www.timecube.com

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 11 Dec 2015 #permalink

"We got Merck, the CDC, IDSA, the FDA and the NIH agreeing with us."

Proof positive you've got to be wrong.

By dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 11 Dec 2015 #permalink

Honey, I said LYMErix was a fungal antigen. Lyme spirochetes shed fungal antigens and that is how they cause chronic illness. I am repeating what the NIH has published.
I also said Thimerosal is put in vaccines to prevent FUNGAL ANTIGENS like LYMErix - using other scientists references (on my website).
Now, if you continue to want to screw up what I said because you find the truth offensive, kindly go ahead. Everyone will then see who has the character flaws.
This thread helped us because we now know that MERCK agrees that immune suppressed kids should not be vaccinated with live, attenuated viruses and that the FDA says Thimerosal was used to prevent.... wait for it... FUNGAL ANTIGENS LIKE LYMERIX!!!
Cheers.
http://www.actionlyme.org

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 11 Dec 2015 #permalink

Kathleen- Do you understand why we need evidence for your claims?

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 11 Dec 2015 #permalink

This is going to be the end of the would be "science blogger's" reputation. "Orac" is not a scientist, and neither is anyone else commenting as no *real* scientist would deny what a fungal antigen is and why they are dangerous to inject directly into the bloodstream.

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 11 Dec 2015 #permalink

Kathleen, LYMErix is not a fungal antigen. It is a vaccine. This vaccine uses the OspA (outer surface protein A) lipoprotein of the B. burgdorferri bacterium. There is no fungus involved. No fungal antigens involved.

Kathleen- Do you have any evidence for your claims?

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 11 Dec 2015 #permalink

This is going to be the end of the would be “science blogger’s” reputation.

Says the person who doesn't know the difference between a fungus and a vaccine.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 11 Dec 2015 #permalink

Is anyone else feeling sorry for Kathleen that she can't understand basic science and is so set upon her own interpretation that she refused to comprehend what she's been told multiple times? I love the fact she feels that by posting this to her website so others with the same mindset can see it, she has proven none of us are scientists. Poor thing.

Her writing skills are pretty crummy, too.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 11 Dec 2015 #permalink

@Sarah A

Thanks! I last studied biology in the early 90s. But it was mostly upper level courses so, either everyone assumed we already knew or didn't think it mattered that much to our understanding of drosophila genetics.

I'm a bad person. I succumbed to temptation. I visited Ms. Dickson's webpage and read her post about her experiences here. As a rational, educated person, I have trouble believing anyone would take the website seriously (even without actually reading it - is aesthetically appealing, readable site design really so hard?). But I know that some will.

Sometimes Orac, I think you're trying to empty the ocean with a teaspoon.

Standing on the surface of the Earth, if I drop a weighted object, it would continuously accelerate toward the center of the planet until it encounters solid resistance. Every physicist, including Stephen Hawking, agrees that this is the case, so I am right.

THEREFORE, anything else I say about physics, no matter how misinformed, backwards, and/or unrelated to the single correct fact above, must also be correct and accurate, and nothing you can say will prove otherwise, because Stephen Hawking agrees with ME!

Yeah, that works.

By Richard Smith (not verified) on 11 Dec 2015 #permalink

Meg says (#287),

Sometimes Orac, I think you’re trying to empty the ocean with a teaspoon.

MJD says,

In contradiction, Orac has failed to realize that a spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down.

By Michael J. Dochniak (not verified) on 11 Dec 2015 #permalink

"In contradiction, Orac has failed to realize that a spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down.

As long as the medicine is science-based and the sugar is just sugar and not fairy dust...

@ MJD

Orac has failed to realize that a spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down.

I was under the impression that Orac's point was to actually have medicine in the spoon, as a starting point.
Just having sugar in the spoon may be sweet, but that doesn't help much with the patient's health issues.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 11 Dec 2015 #permalink

Helianthus says (#291),

Just having sugar in the spoon may be sweet, but that doesn’t help much with the patient’s health issues.

MJD says,

Hypoglycemia treatment maybe?

Saying it in a different way, a spoon full of Orac's salt doesn't help the medicine go down.

By Michael J. Dochniak (not verified) on 11 Dec 2015 #permalink

I still don't care for orange soda, fifty years on, because the doctor told my mother to put some liquid medicine (for tonsillitis?) in it to disguise the taste. It didn't. Or, orange soda is just really nasty.

Orac has failed to realize that a spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down.

I think Kathleen's circuitry is gummed up enough already.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 11 Dec 2015 #permalink

"I think Kathleen’s circuitry is gummed up enough already."

They don't make vacuum tubes the way they used to.

I’m a bad person. I succumbed to temptation. I visited Ms. Dickson’s webpage and read her post about her experiences here. As a rational, educated person, I have trouble believing anyone would take the website seriously (even without actually reading it – is aesthetically appealing, readable site design really so hard?).

Her website reminds we quite a lot of Tim Bolen's website. This is not a positive recommendation.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 11 Dec 2015 #permalink

Oh, G-d, I think I have an inkling of what she's on about. Let's take a step back:

NIH’s Martin and Marques
h[]tp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Martin+and+Marques+and+tlr2 (<<The NIH's "Lyme and MS" Division find that OspA-ish lipopropteins shed by borrelia all the time cause humoral immunosuppression with brain inflammation)

This search coughs up PMIDs 16479520 and 16783164. The former, which is open-access, didn't seem to be in what would be a normally sized ballpark, so I took a stroll and picked up the latter.

I've only skimmed it, but it both hits the high points and emphasizes the Not Even Wrong part:

TLR2 mediates immune responses to a broad range of microbial products and is critical for the recognition of bacterial lipopeptides or live infectious organisms (7); when it functions in combination with another member, TLR1, it can bind triacylated lipopeptides like mycobacterial lipoprotein and the outer surface protein A of B. burgdorferi (8, 9).
...
The downregulation of numerous HLA molecules seen only in monocytes was striking. Interestingly, some research suggests that certain pathogens might use TLR signaling to their own benefit (32), besides serving the host's immune cells as molecular pattern receptors. Activation of the TLR1/2 pathway could help induce a state of tolerance in some tissues, there by suppressing the inflammatory reaction that would otherwise eliminate the pathogen (33, 34). A similar suppression has been described in monocytes stimulated with Mycobacterium tuberculosis (35), which in turn decreased the proinflammatory responsiveness of these cells to interferon-F (36) as well as antigen-processing and presentation to T-lymphocytes (37,38).

Now, what are we suppressing, again?

@Narad - Oh, cripes; I think you've got it. I wonder if she also thinks turtledoves have shells?

A similar suppression has been described in monocytes stimulated with Mycobacterium tuberculosis

Remember also that it is an article of faith within Capital-Letter Paranoia circles that Shyh-Ching Lo’s Mycoplasma incognitus is a synthetic bio-weapon (because Lo was employed by the Army when he claimed that M. incognitus was the true cause of AIDS and prostate cancer, and took out a patent on the idea of treating it. So Mycoplasma has been a scary Worship Word ever since.

How Lo managed to retain any credibility after that debacle, and become sufficiently powerful within virology to cause a second monumental blunder with the "XMRV = CFS" debacle, should be more of a scandal than it is.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 11 Dec 2015 #permalink

Thanks, me and Beaux thanks yall for all the great increase in our web traffic. You are helping us - have helped us greatly - to make our point about the vaccination of immunosuppressed kids, why Thimerosal was put in vaccines (to prevent fungal antigens like LYMErix), etc.
I just wanted to stop back in here and thank you all for showing this guy, Orac, and his drones, here, are not scientists and have no clue what they are talking about.
You are doing a great job. Really.
And thanks MERCK :D

http://www.actionlyme.org

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 12 Dec 2015 #permalink

http://rel-risk.blogspot.com/2015/11/a-database-for-hypochondriacs.html

Still upset the fake "vaccine" is gone, and still trashing the people who HAVE Lyme (it's really post sepsis, with the reactivated viral infections, and which was caused by the fungal antigen LYMErix, too), the very reason for an alleged vaccine, LMAO.

"Here take this fake fungal 'vaccine' for a non-disease that only hypochondriacs think they have." - Sweeg, Durland Fish, et al.

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 12 Dec 2015 #permalink

Kathleen Dickson,

Want to see something funny? Look at what Yves Lobet had to say about Allen Steere’s theories on Lyme:

Yves Lobet wrote:

There is no evidence that vaccination with OspA induces the development of treatment-resistant Lyme arthritis.

I'm afraid I don't see the joke, since Allen Steer didn't believe in chronic lyme caused either by infection or by the vaccine, and has been harassed by people who do.

You still insist that OspA and/or "LYMErix was a fungal antigen"? Why? OspA is produced naturally by Borrelia burgdorferi, which are bacteria, not fungi. You can genetically engineer yeast to produce this protein, but that doesn't make it fungal, any more than the HPV proteins present in Gardasil are fungal proteins just because they come from genetically engineered yeast.

I'm beyond LMAO at this point, I'm stunned at your obtuseness.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 12 Dec 2015 #permalink

Dear Mom Who Thinks I Need to Vaccinate My Kids Against Measles

Right… 1. There is no way to assess the immune status of kids before pumping them full of “vaccine” junk.
http://badlymeattitude.com/2015/01/

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 12 Dec 2015 #permalink

Kathleen,
Why do you believe OspA is “a fungal antigen”?

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 12 Dec 2015 #permalink

What is it? You tell me what it is.

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 12 Dec 2015 #permalink

Tell me exactly what OspA is - the basic structure. When you find out, then you will know it is a fungal antigen.

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 12 Dec 2015 #permalink

Here is the NIH describing how LYMErix vaccination causes "Lyme Disease" (fungal immunosuppression) in a patent. It is the same thing as being exposed to the shed OspA-ish covered exosomes or blebs from natural infection. Oh, but you have to know what OspA actually *is*...
The NIH patent explaining how Lyme causes LYMErix-disease (“stealth bomber”):

"The invention relates to novel antigens associated with Borrelia burgdorferi which are exported (or shed) in vivo and whose detection is a means of diagnosing Lyme disease. The antigens are extracellular membranevesicles and other bioproducts including the major extracellular protein antigen. Another object of the invention is to provide antibodies, monoclonal and/or polyclonal, labeled and/or unlabeled, that are raised against the antigens. A further object of the invention is to provide a method of diagnosing Lyme disease by detecting the antigens in a biological sample taken from a host using the antibodies in conventional immunoassay formats. Another object of the invention is to provide kits, for the diagnosis of Lyme disease, comprising the antibodies and ancillary reagents. The advantage of the antibodies used in the invention is that they react with the antigens from geographically diverse strains of Borrelia burgdorferi, but do not react with antigens from related Borrelia spirochetes."
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PAL…

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 12 Dec 2015 #permalink

@Kathleen Dickson: don't worry. We don't apologize for pointing out when people are being really ridiculous. And for some reason, I don't think you are a whistleblower. But you keep right on believing that.

http://www.actionlyme.org

You make a fool out of yourself. Un-science on a "science blog."

I am leaving this at the top of my website so people can come here and see how you "argue."

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 12 Dec 2015 #permalink

Someone appears to have attended The Queen of Hearts School of Rhetoric where one of the principle texts was Meaning by Humpty Dumpty. I suspect it was the year when Jackson Pollock was a visiting faculty member lecturing in website design.

Kathleen Dickson,

What is it? You tell me what it is. [...] Tell me exactly what OspA is – the basic structure.

It's a lipoprotein with the following structure:

OspA has a repetitive antiparallel β topology with an unusual nonglobular region of “freestanding” sheet connecting globular N- and C-terminal domains. Arrays of residues with alternating charges are a predominant feature of the folding pattern in the nonglobular region. The 184.1 epitope overlaps with a well conserved surface in the N-terminal domain, and a hydrophobic cavity buried in a positively charged cleft in the C-terminal domain is a potential binding site for an unknown ligand. An exposed variable region on the C-terminal domain of OspA is predicted to be an important factor in the worldwide effectiveness of OspA-based vaccines.

The authors also point out:

Although OspA has no significant sequence or structural homology to proteins with known function, we can still draw in a general way on known structure–function relationships. An extensive conserved surface usually denotes interactions with other macromolecules, and the presence of conserved charged groups in a pronounced cleft is typical of proteins that bind small or linear polymeric ligands. In its natural position in the spirochete, OspA could thus play a sensory role, e.g., recognizing either a soluble or host cell surface biomolecule in its C-terminal cleft and transmitting this information to another membrane component.

So this lipoprotein does not resemble proteins with known functions, fungal or otherwise, and likely plays a sensory role in nutrition. There is nothing here to suggest that this lipoprotein remotely resemble fungal lipoproteins.

When you find out, then you will know it is a fungal antigen.

No, it's an antigen that stimulate an immune response, but it is part of a bacterial cell wall, making it a bacterial antigen.

Incidentally, why do you think that all fungal antigens are immunosuppressive? Does that include baker's yeast, fungi in cheese and penicillin?

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 12 Dec 2015 #permalink

Okay, so putting Kreboizen's comment #317 together with Narad's #298, I think I may have an idea what the problem is...

@Kathleen Dickson - are you under the impression that all lipoproteins are "fungal antigens" and/or that all lipoproteins induce immune suppression under all circumstances because simply because saw the words "mycobacterial lipoprotein," "outer surface protein A of B.burgdorferi" (i.e., OspA), and "supression" in the same paper? I don't even know where to begin trying to explain everything that's wrong with that (though I'm sure the rest of the minions will be happy to help), so I'm not even going to try unless you confirm that that's even what you're on about.

Oh, and here's a pro tip re: scientific communication - if the people you're trying to convince have to do this much work just to figure out what it is you're even arguing, you're doing it wrong.

@ Kathleen Dickson

Don’t bother to apologize for all this harassment of me

Oh, drop from your high horses, please.
I have been the target of bullies all my life. I have some idea of what harassment is like, and being told "you are wrong" is not it.

Here is the NIH describing how LYMErix vaccination causes “Lyme Disease” (fungal immunosuppression) in a patent.

Err, no.

It's describing how to use antibodies targeted against some specific molecules of the bacterium Borrelia burgdorferi in order to detect the presence of this bacterium in a patient.

It says nothing nowhere about the vaccination by Lymerix resulting in lyme disease or immunosuppression.

It is the same thing as being exposed to the shed OspA-ish covered exosomes or blebs from natural infection.

Um, no.
With Lymerix, you get injected with a finite amount of extracted lipoproteins. They won't self-replicate and stay forever; eventually, your body will break them down and kick them out.
To top it, these lipoproteins in the Lymerix vaccine weren't coming from a culture of Borrelia bacteria; they are produced by a different organism.

With a natural infection, the bacteria will replicate and keep producing more irritating stuff.

Re: bacterial vs fungus

To add to Krebiozen's comment #317:

Incidentally, why do you think that all fungal antigens are immunosuppressive? Does that include baker’s yeast, fungi in cheese and penicillin?

In a way, proper nomenclature is beside the point.

A number of pathogen micro-organisms do have immunosuppressive actions, as part of their repertoire of tricks to invade us, and this includes bacteria and viruses along fungi.
So, yeah, why insisting that OspA is a fungus antigen?

According to some of Kathleen Dickson's links in #269, Borrelia does seem to induce immunosuppression. That's all the basis needed for the claim that, well, an infection by Borellia could induce immunosuppression. So why muddy the water with this fungus antigen idée fixe?

Of course, that still leaves the little matter of proving that the MMR vaccine (or whatever non-thimerosal-containing vaccine) is contaminated with Borrelia or another immuno-suppressing bug.

It also leaves the little matter of explaining why a vaccine containing a live-attenuated virus, e.g. the vaccine measles virus, and given to an immuno-compromised person, will result in autism rather than, at random, an infection looking oddly like measles.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 12 Dec 2015 #permalink

^ The first sentence addressed to Ms. Dickson should read "...under all circumstances simply because you saw the words..."

There is nothing here to suggest that this lipoprotein remotely resemble fungal lipoproteins.

Moreover, all of the fungal antigens appear to be complex carbohydrates.

^ No, wait, the PAMPs.

I don’t even know where to begin trying to explain everything that’s wrong with that (though I’m sure the rest of the minions will be happy to help), so I’m not even going to try unless you confirm that that’s even what you’re on about.

I'm quite convinced that it's the magic prefix after looking at her ravings about her expedition here:

We all know that during the 1918 Spanish Flu pandemic, people died from the secondary, opportunistic myco-pneumonia. Once again, synergy or an acquired immune deficiency state.

And:

SIMPLE, like there is no Tuberculosis vaccine because that is FUNGAL,...

^ Oh, and <u> tags don't work here.

^^ Only three of the letters are required in other contexts:

Simple as Thimerosal or NeoMYCIN in vaccines to prevent FUNGAL ANTIGENS

^^^ I don't know whether she's latched onto Polysporin yet.

^^^^^ Kathleen seems to have overlooked quite a bit of material. For example, what are bagpipers at risk of? Cryptococcosis, of course. Why?

Let me help.

Narad,
You brought back some happy memories of Addenbrookes back in the late 80s with Professor Calne* pioneering the use of Cyclosporin A (as we called it back then) in transplant surgery, and my colleagues developing a blood test.

For example, what are bagpipers at risk of?

A serious puncture, if I'm within earshot.

* He was later on the advisory board of Medical Hypotheses, oddly.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 12 Dec 2015 #permalink

Neomycin is not and has not been used as a preservative in vaccines. It is used to inhibit bacterial growth during culturing for many vaccines. It is neither fungicidal nor fungistatic.

Thimerosal, in the quantity used in vaccines, is at or somewhat below the minimum inhibitory concentration (MIC) for the challenge fungi, Aspergillus niger and Candida albicans), as set out in the USP. This means that it is not expected to be fungicidal, merely fungistatic.

LIMErix vaccine had a preservative, 2-phenoxyethanol, in a concentration above MIC for A. niger and somewhat below MIC for C. albicans

Preservatives must not denature components of products. This means they may kill or inhibit target organisms, but not denature antigens.

Chrysiogenes arsenatis is the only species in its phylum, so it's way more special than any low and common spirochaete!

Refs:
USP 30, 2007, Chapter 51
LYMErix info at FDA
Handbook of Pharmaceutical Excipients, Rowe et al editors, 2009
CFR Title 21, section 610.15(a)
et al

Actually Ms. Dickson is correct. ALL vaccines are infectious because you all already have Epstein Borreliosis AIDS gene sharing stealth infinite antigenic variation.

Almost forgot: Mel Thornburg is prion crank "Silvermaven."

And just to fill out the cast of characters... here comes none other than Sin Hang Lee.

Mel Thornburg is prion crank “Silvermaven.”

I will say this for Silvermaven -- her outpourings are a fertile source of Death-Metal band names.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 12 Dec 2015 #permalink

"... we learned that that "scienceblogs" screwball who screwed up what we were saying and whose followers are clearly not scientists (none of them knew spirochetes are their own phylum or had a clue what we were talking about, when we talked about fungal immunosuppression/post-sepsis), is not really any kind of scientist. He or she, "Orac," could be like Edward McSweegan, the dude who thunk up the idea that you could have a vaccine against Relapsing Fever, not knowing the nature of the relapse was antigenic variation and that therefore vaccines would do no good. Nor did he know that OspA was a fungal antigen, a triacyl lipopeptide and no such fungal antigens ever worked before as "vaccines." In fact, these preservatives like Thimerosal or neomycin are put in vaccines to PREVENT fungal antigens like LYMErix.

So, here is Merck, admitting the children are getting the vaccine viruses and not the protection, explaining the Autism epidemic in the same way we have described the fungal-viral synergy where people whacked with fungal antigens like LYMErix from either vaccine syringe or a tick [with its fungal shedding (blebs or exosomes)], ruining the immune system and activating latent viruses, and hence, the New Great Imitator, mainly Epstein-Barr. (Remember, spirochetes are their own phylum, shed fungal antigens - TLR2/1-agonists, like LYMErix -, are not regular "bacteria," and have no LPS, or TLR4 agonists.)

http://www.actionlyme.org

Lotta commentary, no science or scientists. LOL.

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 13 Dec 2015 #permalink

... as a fungal, triacyl lipopeptide, Pam3Cys, TLR2/1 agonist.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Martin+and+Marques+and+tlr2

Causes no antibodies to be produced. So, kindly take it up with the NIH if you object to this science.

Then again, no one here is a scientist, and surely would not dare pick up the phone or send an email to the NIH with their nursery rhymes as an answer to real science.

Cheers
http://www.actionlyme.org

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 13 Dec 2015 #permalink

Kathleen Dickson,
It is very obvious to anyone remotely scientifically literate that you simply don't understand the terminology you are using. Your rants make you look like a deranged idiot.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 13 Dec 2015 #permalink

Kathleen Dickson, those "scientists [you're] quoting" aren't the ones doing the ranting here...

..Krebiozen was talking about you specifically.

Kathleen Dickson,

The scientists I quote are deranged idiots? Why don’t you tell them that?

No, I said that your rants make you look like a deranged idiot. You clearly don't have enough scientific knowledge to understand what those scientists' quotes mean. Nothing you have quoted remotely supports your claims - OspA is not a fungal antigen, vaccines, dead or attenuated, preserved with thimerosal or not, are not contaminated with fungal antigens, and to claim that these non-existent antigens cause autism by some unexplained mechanism is just silly.

Gary Wormser on how the OspA vaccines in dogs didn’t work and caused immunosuppression:

That isn't what the study found. It found that the vaccine did work in dogs but had unexpected effects on human cells in vitro. The study concludes that the vaccine might be made even more effective if the immunomodulatory effects of OspA were understood better. I don't know why you think this supports your claims. It doesn't.

Oh, I forgot, no one here is actually a scientist, and especialy not Orac. He may be an MD, but MDs are not scientists.

Orac has both an MD and a PhD and is employed in scientific research, which most definitely makes him a scientist. Your inability to figure this out for yourself speaks volumes.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 13 Dec 2015 #permalink

I really think Ms Dickson is blogwhoring. Every comment she posts now has a link back to it.

Question for those in the know: does the act of posting a link like that in a comment count as a "hit" for the blog? Maybe that's what is driving up her traffic as much as it has been (according to her statement that her hits have gone up so much). I certainly can't imagine most of us visiting her blog multiple times.

Her emphatic failure to pick up on the Carroll reference is pretty painful, as well.

Kathleen Dickson, it's pretty clear that you don't understand what your own sources are saying; as several diligent and superhumanly patient minions have pointed out, the quotes you've provided either contradict your own conclusions or have nothing whatever to do with the claims you're making. Your continuing confusion about fungus/bacteria is just one example.

I don't know much about microbiology, Lyme disease, or the etiology and causation of autism. It's obvious that you don't, either, but unfortunately, you've stuffed your own head with false ideas about all those things and labeled the lot "knowledge." You would do better to forget everything you've read online and go back to school.

I really think Ms Dickson is blogwhoring. Every comment she posts now has a link back to it.

Yeah, I think so too. I'm an amazingly tolerant blog host. To get banned really takes work, and I usually only do it for sock puppets, blatant threats, or a series of offensive racist/sexist comments, but maybe I should add blatantly obvious blog whoring to the list. I know that lots of commenters promote their own blogs in comments of other blogs. I've even done it myself in the past. But there comes a point when it becomes very blatant and annoying. I'm not sure what that point is, but dozens of posts, all containing link backs to one's own blog, certainly passes that point by a wide margin. I think I'll contemplate that.

Well, real scienstists ALWAYS substantiate with sources

Linking to an entire website (which doesn't even have a search engine) several times is not "substantiating with sources" ; at #340 for example it is a bit better, but given the multiple misunderstandings here, it would be better if you explained exactly what in the paper is in favor of your theory.
Bragging like a teenager about the hits your site certainly doesn't make you look mature.
And saying people here never spoke of the content and only trashed your character only show your bad faith. Anyone reading the thread can see that, even though there were snarky remarks, most of the commenters tried to make sense of what you were saying, asked you some questions that you rarely answered, and offered detailed criticism that you called "attacks on your character".
You didn't even quote any part of Orac's article to explain where he "screwed up what [you] were saying".

Jus sayin, we don't know if lung immunity is the same as injecting fungal antigens right into the blood stream. If this works, it could be protection against pandemic FLU-**MONIA**, but no one here cares about reality, so..

In his European patent for an inhalation form of OspA Dattwyler says OspA is Pam3Cys and a TLR2-agonist (everyone else, like NIH, CDC, even Yale say they don't know what OspA is, but ILADS and the LDA would not even ask, duh, "Cause Known"); it means OspA could never have been a human injectable vaccine:

"A lipidation/processing reaction has been described for the intact OspA gene of B. burgdorferi. The primary translation product of the full-length B. burgdorferi OspA gene contains a hydrophobic N-terminal sequence, of 16 amino acids, which is a substrate for the attachment of a diacyl glyceryl to the sulflhydryl side chain of the adjacent cysteine (Cys) residue (at position 17). Following this attachment, cleavage by signal peptidase II and the attachment of a third fatty acid to the N-terminus occurs. The completed lipid moiety, a tripalmitoyl-S-glycerylcysteine modification, is termed Pam3Cys (or is sometimes referred to herein as Pam(3)Cys or Pam3Cys). It has been suggested that the lipid modification allows membrane localization of proteins, with polypeptide portions exposed as immune targets. In addition to serving as targets for the immune response, Pam3Cys-modified proteins, such as OspA, have been reported to act as potent inflammatory stimulants though the toll-like 2 receptor mechanism (TLR2).
http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=US42934470&recNu…

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 13 Dec 2015 #permalink

to TLR2/1 agonists, like fungal antigens, like LYMErix would be the mechanism, by which inhalation OspA would protect against the secondary pneumonia.

But no one here is interested in the science so, cheers.

http://www.actionlyme.org

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 13 Dec 2015 #permalink

I think we all need to acknowledge that nothing we can say, and no article that we can link to, will change Ms Dickson's mind. She has been suffering under this lyme delusion for years and she isn't going to change. She was apparently willing to give up custody of her children rather than return to reality and our efforts, no matter how thorough, comprehensive and well-documented, will have absolutely zero impact.

http://articles.courant.com/2005-10-05/news/0510050791_1_lyme-mails-dis…

Yes, you see, Yale committed research fraud and UConn went along with it. So, thanks for not addressing the science once again. Thank you for doing that repeatedly and showing that this blog is trash, and not about science.

As you can see, I am pointing everyone here so they can see how you people do "science:"
http://www.actionlyme.org

Youz trash me because I am right about all of this. You're too cowardly to admit you are wrong. Hence, no one here argues with the science.

By Kathleen Dickson (not verified) on 13 Dec 2015 #permalink

@MI Dawn #343:

Question for those in the know: does the act of posting a link like that in a comment count as a “hit” for the blog?

Not directly, but search engines like Google and Bing crawl through websites and notice the linkbacks, so her website gets pushed up a few places when someone does a search. It's a known trick in Search Engine Optimisation, and it's regarded as underhand, even though it's not illegal.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 13 Dec 2015 #permalink

OTOH, WordPress automatically adds the 'rel="nofollow"' tag to all linkbacks in comments.

In any case, Ms. Dickinson's blatant blog whoring is getting on my nerves; so I'm going to do something about it. I'm going to set up a filter that sends any post with a link to her website into moderation. There I will examine the comment and decide if the link is blog whoring or not. If it isn't, I'll approve the comment. If it is, I'll remove the link and (maybe) approve the comment.

Opus,
I see that was ten years ago, and she is still ranting nonsense at anyone that will listen. If she thinks that pointing out the difference between a fungus and a bacterium, or between an agonist and an antagonist isn't addressing the science she is beyond our help. It's very sad that someone would wreck their life over an irrational belief like this. I shall cease to engage as it obviously isn't going to help.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 13 Dec 2015 #permalink

@Krebiozen

Sometimes I think that even engaging someone with this level of delusion is counterproductive - it just provides an opportunity to reinforce their confidence in their false beliefs.

@Opus -- well, the "injected into the bloodstream" is another tell.

On the other hand, I find the patient replies/explanations she's been getting to be useful information.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 13 Dec 2015 #permalink

After reading that article Opus linked to in #352, I stand by my recommendation that Ms. Dickson seek psychiatric care. That's not meant as an insult, nor am I saying she's insane, but I do worry about the harm she might do to herself or someone else.

@Kathleen Dickson (#353): You trash us because we are right about all of this. You’re too cowardly to admit you are wrong. Hence, you don't argue with the actual, known science.

Weird how that works... Oh, and there's a reason why everybody laughed at Bozo the Clown.

By Richard Smith (not verified) on 14 Dec 2015 #permalink

New from Beaux

It's a pity she couldn't be arsed to actually make an appearance.

Todd W. @359
Re: psychiatric care for Kathleen Dickson

It seems that Dickson has already received at least some psychiatric care during her long journey, including a stint in what was described as "the prison psychiatric wing at Connecticut Valley Hospital." Perhaps she should best be ignored here in the hope that she can find appropriate help. Lilady would have advised "Do not feed the troll."

Perhaps she should best be ignored here in the hope that she can find appropriate help someplace else to mindlessly repeat the same things over and over again.

FTFY. I'm pretty sure KD likes her bad trip just fine.

Wondering if I could be pointed in a good direction. Looking to fly across country, so should I buy a ticket on a major airline that was built by aeronautical design engineers and flown by a flight crew with thousands of hours trained in science of flight (and of course landings) but pretty boring and not very likeable, or should I seek someone that writes about flying on the internet who is very sociable and can get a thousand likes and high fives at the drop of a keyboard??

I'm thinking it's much much safer flying from someone well liked on the internet from their ability to write...I mean how totally empowering!!

Wheels up captain

MarkN: "Wondering if I could be pointed in a good direction."

This is kind of tangential to your point, but if you fly to the Seattle area, be sure to take the airplane factory tour north of the city. Then go just south of the city and visit the Museum of Flight, which happens to be on the same runway as the flight test folks.

Just remember if your wings are made of feathers embedded in wax you must not fly too close to the sun.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 15 Dec 2015 #permalink

Wheels up captain

Um, sir, I realize you're the co-pilot and I'm just a flight attendant, but shouldn't the wheels stay down until we're actually airborne?

OspA is fungal=LIKE Due to excessive shedding of it's membrane Borrelia induces immunological tolerance, Pam3Cys is used as a synthetic form of ospA used as a potent activator of the immune response in vaccines. Due to excessive upregulation the TLR2's become tolerant. This is not an unusual occurance

Pretty sure people thought Einstein was crazy in his day as well. I know both of these women and I can assure you I'M not crazy and neither are they. This is me https://www.facebook.com/cheryl.paterson1
I'm quite open-minded and very approachable, provided you're NICE, I don't do assholes and I have a 0 tolerance for BS. I suffer from Chronic Lyme Disease (CDC positive) and have been researching it since I got diagnosed. I went to medical school to study to become an RN but unfortunate life circumstances and now THIS has stopped me from achieving that title...BUT the knowledge I have does not require a degree.

Cheryl: Chronic Lyme Disease is a hoax. I don't doubt you have had Lyme disease, and I hope you were appropriately treated.

By the way...real nurses go to nursing school, not medical school.

"Pretty sure people thought Einstein was crazy in his day as well."

False. Add history fail to your list of failures.

Can someone post the CDC's criteria for Chronic Lyme Disease?

The IDSA is going to be so pi**ed.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 15 Dec 2015 #permalink

Is there anything on the planet you guys DON'T correct? I went to college..not "nursing school" Einstein was ahead of his time..and I said "pretty sure" I didn't send you a link to a website on "people who think Einstein was crazy" and YES Chronic Lyme Disease DOES exist, that name is ridiculous...it's referred to as Post Treatment Lyme Disease syndrome and Late Disseminated Lyme Disease, it's caused by the destruction the spirochetes cause after having it for many years left untreated. Not everyone sees the tick that bites them or develops the classic bull's eye rash..I didn't. As a matter of a fact I didn't develop any symptoms until a year later and they were isolated symptoms that went away.

The IDSA and ILADS are crazy. Treatment with antibiotics for a prolonged period of time is insane especially when Borrelia can morph into an L form when threatened, yes it's able to imitate a virus, shed that membrane and hide. It's a Mighty Morphing Power Ranger..like that science?

Antibiotic work if caught early, otherwise they have more of a placebo effect in these loons I see in FB groups. They have antiinflammatory effects as well. Some people will do anything Lyme Literate Medical Doctors tell them without looking into it themselves. I'm not one of those people. I want to KNOW WHY symptoms persist.

I have a list of failures?

"Is there anything ... you guys don't correct?"

You could try getting something right.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 15 Dec 2015 #permalink

I'm always right...the rest is my opinion. Not all nurses go to "nursing school"...there IS persistent Lyme Disease symptoms and how do you know no one ever thought Einstein was crazy...were you there to interview everyone that knew him personally? Just because you correct someone does mean YOU'RE right and they're wrong

Borrelia can morph into an L form when threatened, yes it’s able to imitate a virus, shed that membrane and hide.

Do you actually understand any biology? I ask because you make so many elementary mistakes in biology in your wish to convince us of the truth of chronic lyme disease.

For example: Viruses are surrounded by coat protein, not a membrane. L-form bacteria are cell wall-deficient bacteria (usually because they have been cultured in the laboratory in the presence of cell wall-inhibiting antibiotics) and still contain a cell membrane. OspA is a bacterial protein. Fungi are a whole different Kingdom (or Domain if you prefer) of life to bacteria.

This makes me conclude that you most likely did not go to medical school, or if you did you didn't learn anything while there. Cell structure should have been part of the entry level curriculum.

I have a list of failures?

As far as biology goes, yes you do. See above.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 15 Dec 2015 #permalink

Cheryl: guess what! I went to college too. University of Michigan School of Nursing (now College of Nursing) for a BSN. And SUNY Stony Brook School of Nursing for a MSN. Not medical school.

Borrelia is a stealth pathogen and YES I do understand it's biology and it has nothing to do with "chronic" Lyme Disease because it's morphology has nothing to do with that. It's obvious that YOU haven't studied anything about it. OspA is a lipoprotein and I never said it was fungal.I said fungal-LIKE just like mycobacteria is LIKE fungus because of how it grows.I don't know where or how you managed to change everything I said to try am make me look uneducated. http://www.lymebook.com/top10forms There's MANY articles with information on Borrelia..I've read hundreds over the years.

@ MI Dawn...congratulations on your entrance into Western Medicine..the worst PRACTICE of medicine and healthcare on the face of the Earth. You were TAUGHT about medicine....whatever you wish to call it. "med·i·cal
ˈmedək(ə)l/

adjective: medical

of or relating to the science of medicine, or to the treatment of illness and injuries."

Cheryl, would you trust an auto mechanic who doesn't know what an engine is?

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 16 Dec 2015 #permalink

I have the impression Cherryl's socalled 'Western Medicine', or medicine as I like to call it has a great trackrecord in improving peoples lifespans, reducing child-death and improving general health.

@Cheryl

Ms. Dickson seems to think that OspA is fungal, not fungal-LIKE. She also thinks that LYMErix is a fungal antigen, not a vaccine. Since you know her, I'm sure you correct her so she doesn't make a fool of herself on the internet.

OK. LYMErix is a fungal antigen, western medicine had absolutely nothing to do with the increase in lifespan, and we are all wrong. Cheryl and the rest have certainly proven their superior intelligence.

Cheryl: did you ever take microbiology and pass it?

This is just sad. Talking in science-ish words and posting links to things that don't support or at times even pertain to the discussion in no way impresses anyone with a basic education in biology. It's more than a small leap to claim a fungus causes autism, much less that it only comes from vaccine contamination. Do you honestly believe the thousands and thousands of health care providers are all in on some "let's cause autism" scheme? I'm pretty sure that level of secrecy and unification of belief just....doesn't....exist. No one told me about it, anyhow, and I've given real live vaccines to patients...

Stealth pathogens are all the rage for stocking stuffers as well

@Cheryl

I'm curious. Do you agree with Ms. Dickson's and/or Beaux Relliosis' (I'm surprised that we're 390 comments in and no one has remarked on the "clever" 'nym) arguments? To wit:

1) Autism is caused by fungal contamination of vaccines.
2) The removal of thimerosal has led to increased fungal contamination, despite the fact that the shift was made to single-dose vials.
3) Somehow this has led to increased fungal contamination of live viral vaccines which never had thimerosal in them to begin with.

Chris Preston: This makes me conclude that you most likely did not go to medical school, or if you did you didn’t learn anything while there. Cell structure should have been part of the entry level curriculum.

Pretty sure I did some cell wall stuff in high school biology, and more in college, but that was just building on the things we should have learned in high school. (My high school was somewhat unusual- junior year biology was learning how to band and handle wild birds.)
I doubt Cheryl could pass a high school biology class, especially since she seems confused about this whole kingdoms and phylums thing. Seriously, that's BASIC stuff.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 16 Dec 2015 #permalink

Cell wall deficient bacteria or L forms or STEALTH pathogens are not cell wall deficient because they have been cultured in the laboratory in the presence of cell wall-inhibiting antibiotics, this is how they reproduce themselves. Bacterial morphology is determined by the cell wall. Since the L-form has no cell wall, its morphology is different from that of the strain of bacteria from which it originated from. Borrelia whole bodies do this when threatened. I'd like to know how because I said "fungal LIKE" means I don't understand taxonomy or basic cell structure and have since repeatedly taught this to my five children. I was a straight A student in high school AND college and YES I did take microbiology. What Kathleen means by "fungal" is because she sees a correlation between fungal immunosuppression and ospA from what I gather leading to tolerance.

@Cheryl

What Kathleen means by “fungal” is because she sees a correlation between fungal immunosuppression and ospA from what I gather leading to tolerance.

Unfortunately for Ms. Dickson, words have meaning.

Now, do you agree with the arguments she's made, which I listed out above?

Todd....1) Autism is caused by fungal contamination of vaccines. There is no known single cause for autism spectrum disorder
2) The removal of thimerosal has led to increased fungal contamination, despite the fact that the shift was made to single-dose vials. Then where's the contamination coming from? Why only fungus..what about bacterial contamination?
3) Somehow this has led to increased fungal contamination of live viral vaccines which never had thimerosal in them to begin with. Same answer as question # 2 I'm more concerned with the "big picture" here...well not specifically HERE per say. I just want to know why there's lingering symptoms after treatment for Lyme Disease and I'm interested in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia as well...diseases of no known ideology so I try to keep an OPEN MIND...I don't believe everything I read, I'm not paranoid nor am I gullible, I just want answers PLAUSIBLE answers. Anything is possible especially in the land of microbes, they're highly adaptable and many of them are mutated now because of the overuse of antibiotics.

The removal of thimerosal has led to increased fungal contamination, despite the fact that the shift was made to single-dose vials.

Somehow this has led to increased fungal contamination of live viral vaccines which never had thimerosal in them to begin with.

Cheryl- Please cite your source for this assumptions.

@Cheryl

I'm confused by your answer to #1. Are you saying that, yes, fungal contamination is a cause of autism? If yes, what is your evidence to support this?

2) You appear to be operating from the assumption that there is contamination in the first place. What is your evidence for this?

3) You seem to agree with her argument that I listed as #3. How would the removal of thimerosal from other vaccines affect contamination in live virus vaccines? And, again, what is your evidence that there is any contamination to begin with?

For the purposes of this discussion, could we please stay focused on thimerosal, vaccines, and autism, leaving other alleged maladies aside?

@Meg..nooo I simply copied and pasted then ANSWERED Todd's questions/statements.1. There's no evidence of this, from what I understand it's a genetic abnormality. 2.No,I asked, rather sarcastically, if that were true then where would the contamination come from and if there's fungal contamination wouldn't there also be bacterial in some vials, no because they're sealed and not repeatedly poked w/ a syringe 3.I said "same answer as #2" If they're single vials..if they're a live attenuated vaccine there was never any thimerosal to begin with

You see Todd, in the crank world no hypothesis is ever incorrect; it is simply a spectrum of valid ideas that overlap.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 16 Dec 2015 #permalink

Borrelia burgdorferi doesn't have a cell wall deficient pleomorphic form, according to this paper:

Interestingly, human serum induced the bacterium to change its morphology to round bodies (RBs). In addition, biofilm-like colonies in suspension were found to be part of B. burgdorferi’s normal in vitro growth. Further studies provided evidence that spherical RBs had an intact and flexible cell envelope, demonstrating that they are not cell wall deficient, or degenerative as previously implied.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 16 Dec 2015 #permalink

@Cheryl-

No, Todd doesn't believe that at all. He was asking if you believed/agreed with Ms. Dickson's assertions which he then proceeded to list.

I am disappointed that the Morgellons crowd haven't turned up.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 16 Dec 2015 #permalink

HDB: Don't give 'em any ideas.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 16 Dec 2015 #permalink

@Meg, I never implied that Todd believed what he stated, I simply copied and pasted his statements and answered them based on what I know of them because he asked. @ Science Mom, " in the crank world no hypothesis is ever incorrect; it is simply a spectrum of valid ideas that overlap."~Agreed! I've been trying to find stuff that backs up the assertions and cannot.@Krebiozen, that article is AWESOME, it's good to see more research FINALLY..tired of reading the same old, same old on the Mighty Morphing Power Rangers. ;) Thank you..I'll shed some light on this! Btw..I'm not a "crank"...I'm a crank debunker..and not just in the field of medicine

The only sense I can make of Cheryl's comments 398 and 404 is that she disagrees with Ms. Dickson's entire argument, but is defending that same argument for some reason... despite being unable to find "stuff that backs up the assertions."

Draw your own conclusions about Cheryl's intentions.

Defending HER...not the argument =) I'd need more reliable science to back any of it. Some of it is very true, some could be true. When the world has 100% accurate information on Lyme Disease I'm sure I'll back it 100%..until then I remain as open minded as possible. A lot of the research seems plausible but what "could be" and what actually IS are 2 very different things. It's bad enough these so called "Lyme literate" doctors (LLMDs) are treating the masses w/dozens of antibiotics for 18 months to 2 years because it "could be" that they're not getting all the spirochetes o.0

Borrelia burgdorferi doesn’t have a cell wall deficient pleomorphic form, according to this paper:

I am not sure how much credence to put in this report --
Persisting atypical and cystic forms of Borrelia burgdorferi and local inflammation in Lyme neuroborreliosis
-- given that the lead author is out there on the fringe and believes Alzheimer's Disease to be a form of neurosyphilis or neuroborreliosis.

It talks of spherical versions of the bacterium, produced by "budding" or "granulating". These fragments were definitely cell-walled, since ospA antibodies were used to detect them. OTOH, there was little evidence that the buds / granules / fragments were actually viable cells.

The main claim that Borrelia variants are wall-less seems to be this one from 1996:
Formation and cultivation of Borrelia burgdorferi spheroplast-L-form variants.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 17 Dec 2015 #permalink

Yes, I was quite surprised when I read the link provided by Krebiozen. Apparently the "L form" was a bad name given to this stage of the Borrelia because they're NOT cell wall deficient nor are they in "biofilms" which Lyme doctors are STILL using specific antibiotics for believing they're "cyst busting" as if the dozens of antibiotics to destroy the spirochetes isn't enough! You link is about the "blebs"..supposedly they contain genetic material of the spirochete.There's 3 known forms and only the whole body spirochete is known to be destroyed by antibiotics. It takes a while for them to start their Might Morohing Poer Ranger antics so it's best to start treatment immediately after the bite IF you find the tick or happen todevelop the bull's eye rash,unfortunately not everyone does,as I stated above,I didn't but I did manage to test positive on the 2 tiered test, only a small minority do. As far as Alzheimer's Disease goes, as far as I know it's one of the many diseases "The Great Imitator" (Lyme Disease) assumes BUT people can have MS,Lupus,Alzheimer's, etc without having been infected with Lyme Disease so I tend to take any of these correlations with a grain of salt. As far as I can see, if the spirochetes persist this "Chronic Lyme Disease" is a constant state of inflammation due to their presence. Seems there's 2 of them =/ http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/lymedisease/Pages/co-infection.aspx "B. miyamotoi, a bacterium that is related to the bacteria that causes tick-borne relapsing fever, is known to be present in all tick species that transmit Lyme disease. In 2013, NIAID-supported investigators showed evidence of B. miyamotoi infection in the United States and studies to better understand this pathogen continue to be supported (N Engl J Med. 368(3):240-5 and 291-3, 2013). One of these preliminary studies showed patients with acute Lyme disease were more likely to be co-infected with B. miyamotoi than people who did not have Lyme disease."AND if you look up B.miyamotoi it states it sends you into the wonderful world of relapsing fever with this SPIFFY paragraph in relation a a vaccine, "Currently, no vaccine against relapsing fever is available, but research is on-going. Developing a vaccine is very difficult because the spirochetes avoid the immune response of the infected person (or animal) through antigenic variation. Essentially, the pathogen stays one step ahead of antibodies by changing its surface proteins. These surface proteins, lipoproteins called variable major proteins, have only 30–70% of their amino acid sequences in common, which is sufficient to create a new antigenic "identity" for the organism. Antibodies in the blood that are binding to and clearing spirochetes expressing the old proteins do not recognize spirochetes expressing the new ones. Antigenic variation is common among pathogenic organisms. These include the agents of malaria, gonorrhea, and sleeping sickness. Important questions about antigenic variation are also relevant for such research areas as developing a vaccine against HIV and predicting the next influenza pandemic." The disease gives me a migraine just reading about it, I try NOT TO play "connect the dots" otherwise I may end up seeing something that might not really be there(I'll wait for the book lol) More research needs to be done and I try to stick to the facts..none of this, "maybe it's this" or "maybe it's that" shenanigans

Holy CRAP..did I type all of that? O.O

I try NOT TO play “connect the dots” otherwise I may end up seeing something that might not really be there

Measles and chicken-pox do provide more opportunities, however.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 17 Dec 2015 #permalink

Apparently the “L form” was a bad name given to this stage of the Borrelia because they’re NOT cell wall deficient

Much of the Chronic-LD theorising demands that Borrelia *does* spend most of its existence in a form without any cell-wall, to explain how so many people can assign themselves a Lyme status despite having no antibodies to ospA.

I get the impression, from looking around within that milieu, that "stealth" and "morph" are important shibboleths to use.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 17 Dec 2015 #permalink

YES, Narad, I read all of her stuff...so do a lot of people in "Lyme Land"

@Cheryl

YES, Narad, I read all of her stuff…so do a lot of people in “Lyme Land”

Since you answers were a bit confusing, I'll ask again, do you agree with Ms. Dickson's arguments?

I agree with some of what she posts, I really don't remember all of her comments on here. I agree with what I can back up, the rest I treat the same as I do with other people's theories, I remain open-minded and when some evidence pops up I try to make sense of it. Can I say I agree that ospA is fungal? But there's a lot of controversy surrounding LD and other diseases so I have to stay as open minded as possible..she does have a lot of good science to back up what she says about other things

Sorry,I meant to say,"No" I can't agree with that

Sin Hang Lee is a doctor who is quoted by Milford Molecular Diagnostics that uses the PCR test as well.

UGH! herr doktor bimler why did you have to tell me this doctors name? Now I just HAD TO go Googling him and found this http://naturalsociety.com/independent-lab-confirms-viral-dna-merck-vacc… WHAT do people EXPECT to BE in vaccines? Of course there would be HPV DNA in a HPV vaccine what the hell else DNA would they expect to create antibodies Kool Aid DNA? I HAD HPV..it's like the MOST sexually transmitted virus there is and in men there's usually no symptoms..I've also HAD cervical cancer a long time ago when they first put 2 and 2 together and realized it causes it, I was treated BECAUSE I make sure I see my Gyno yearly unlike most women and when they came out with the vaccine I was so amazed!! I have 3 daughters, 2 have already received the series of vaccines and rest assured the 3rd one will as well when she's old enough. I don't get this whole antivaccine thing, people react differently to vaccines..the benefit outweighs the risk in my world

Of course there would be HPV DNA in a HPV vaccine what the hell else DNA would they expect to create antibodies Kool Aid DNA?

You really have no idea how any of this works, and you're opining that KD has "a lot of good science"?

Oh, and...

I’ve also HAD cervical cancer a long time ago when they first put 2 and 2 together and realized it causes it, I was treated BECAUSE I make sure I see my Gyno yearly unlike most women

This is obnoxiously stupid victim-blaming and nearly tantamount to the stock anti-Gardasil line that Pap smears obviate the vaccine. If you want to put over the impression that, unlike KD, you're tethered to reality, you're going to have to start learning to tell the difference between sh*t and shinola.

Typing "Sin Hang Lee" into the search box strikes me as an excellent way to start.

Of course there would be HPV DNA in a HPV vaccine what the hell else DNA would they expect to create antibodies Kool Aid DNA?

1. Non-rhetorical reply to a rhetorical question -- Yeast DNA. Recombinant yeast, with fragments of HPV genes spliced into its genome, so that it fills its fermentation tank with the proteins that comprise the HPV shell. It's those proteins that are supposed to train the vaccine recipient's immune system.

So there may be fragments of yeast DNA in the vaccine, although the objective is to extract only the virus-shell proteins from the fermenter.

2. Sin Hang Lee is entertainingly shameless in his career grifting. That is a separate issue, however.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 18 Dec 2015 #permalink

@Narad: put on your sarcasm detector, dear. Cheryl was NOT impressed with Sin Hang Lee, nor was she freaking out about the HPV vaccine. While her gyno comment perhaps wasn't charitable,I do know many women who don't see their gyno for annual paps and "don't think it's necessary since ...(choose: I've only slept with my partner/I'm a lesbian/never had an STD etc)

You either need sleep or more coffee.

Thanx MI Dawn..YES, I am always very heavy on the sarcasm. herr doktor bimler, wouldn't fragments of HPV genes be detectable with a PCR test? Grouchy Narad, I advocate the vaccine BECAUSE not all women go for their annual pap tests which is absurd since Planned Parenthood offers them for free., so it would help in the early detection (dysplasia) of cervical cancer. I've ALWAYS had my annual pap tests done and still ended up with HPV so how does that make ME appear that I am saying this will obviate the vaccine? It's why I am so happy they created it =)

Cheryl: next time, especially since you are fairly new to the site, end your sarcastic comments with /sarcasm so everyone is aware that you are being sarcastic. Unfortunately, we have a lot of visitors to the site who are uneducated enough (well, OK, they have their Google U degrees) to believe Dr Lee's site and many others.

Science Mom says (#399),

...in the crank world no hypothesis is ever incorrect.

MJD says,

I respectfully disagree, once a researcher verifies that the null hypothesis is correct they then conceptually accept that the hypothesis is incorrect.

Q. What's the difference between nasty and respectfully insolent

A. Insulting verbosity

By Michael J. Dochniak (not verified) on 20 Dec 2015 #permalink

Can you name a type of woo now abandoned by it's advocates?

I can cite several examples from the world of traditional medicine, but not a single one from the alternative medicine crowd.

Cheryl--

Yes, Planned Parenthood offers them for free (when not prevented by terrorist attacks). It still takes time to actually have the test (and to get to and from the office), and it's still unpleasant. Even if I can do it at a time that's convenient for me, in my doctor's office an easy walk from my house, that doesn't mean it won't hurt. And that convenience isn't there for everyone: for some women it means taking unpaid time off from work, or arranging extra child care.

A lot of the time, if people skip preventive medical stuff and tests, it's because nothing hurts now, but the preventive care will hurt (dental stuff can be like that) or the test will. You're not going to persuade people to put themselves through that by telling them that they're being foolish not to do it because all it will cost them is round-trip bus fare.

To call bloodletting the forerunner of modern medicine is like calling "Jumping off the roof while flapping your arms" the forerunner of modern aerospace engineering.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 20 Dec 2015 #permalink

MJD says,
Bloodletting

Nope, cutting and bleeding (re-invented with new phony cultural backgrounds) is still popular in the Alt-Med scammosphere.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 20 Dec 2015 #permalink

I know this is sort of off topic, but we have had a discussion about Central Asia here before. I've been thinking that a trip to the former Kafiristan might be nice some day. I'd have to brush up on my Vasi-Vari, though.

Perhaps someone should bring some vodka along. It might be illegal there, though.

I respectfully disagree, once a researcher verifies that the null hypothesis is correct...

Beg pardon?

Wet cupping is essentially bloodletting

I have a wet cup in front of me, but the liquid is mostly bourbon.

Or is that entirely unrelated to your message?

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 20 Dec 2015 #permalink

Mine's cider. I'll stick to that.

Dang...I suppose I should be past being astonished at what people fall for.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 20 Dec 2015 #permalink

Recently finished about 500+ OB case histories from the mid-Victorian era. Bloodletting. Yes! Because a woman who has suffered from a massive PPH, that's EXACTLY what she needs, MOAR BLOOD LOSS!

It wasn't woo at all. It was just about all they had in their bag of limited tricks.

On a completely unrelated (sorry Orac) note, we are in high gear over Christmas and Santa here, with 4.5 year old Delphinette. Today our hipster neighbours informed us that their son (same age) knows Santa isn't real, because they don't believe in lying to their child.

Seriously, what the f3ck is wrong with people? I lie to her all of the time. "What's Daddy doing in the music room?" "Working, he'll be up soon." (he's smoking a J out the window and listening to '77/'78 Grateful Dead, was I supposed to say that?!)

She believes in Santa. We lied. Good for us all.

Carry on.

Verzeihung, herr Doktor -- but our bro Kreb has made me very leery about clicking on links. Is this one going to require brain bleach?

By shay simmons (not verified) on 20 Dec 2015 #permalink

I respectfully disagree, once a researcher verifies that the null hypothesis is correct they then conceptually accept that the hypothesis is incorrect.

That needs some explaining or a recanting.

That needs some explaining or a recanting.

I think "I don't understand hypothesis testing" is clear enough on its own.

I respectfully disagree, once a researcher verifies that the null hypothesis is correct they then conceptually accept that the hypothesis is incorrect.

MJD has got it all arseabout again. You don't verify that a hypothesis is correct, you disprove a hypothesis. That then means you accept the alternative hypothesis as the most likely explanation for the time being.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 20 Dec 2015 #permalink

Chris Preston from Austrailia says (#447),

MJD has got it all arseabout again.

MJD from North America says,

At least I don't live on the bottom part of the earth. :-)

By Michael J. Dochniak (not verified) on 21 Dec 2015 #permalink

Totally depends on your point of view.....

@ Cheryl

WHAT do people EXPECT to BE in vaccines? Of course there would be HPV DNA in a HPV vaccine

Welcome to the antivax bizarro world, Cheryl :-)
As I am a microbiologist by training, I'm too very puzzled by people being offended that vaccines may contain bits of micro-organisms.
The only explanation I can come with is that these people believe in witchcraft.*
Keep looking, and you find some complaining about the presence of chlorine in vaccine (in the form of sodium chloride).

* no offense to Wicca believers.

@ MJD

At least I don’t live on the bottom part of the earth

Stop being so geocentrist. From the point-of-view of our Aussie lectorat, you are the one upside-down.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 21 Dec 2015 #permalink

@ dean & Narad,

I have a hypothesis that contamination (x) in vaccine (y) affects the incidence of autism spectrum disorders (z).

The null hypothesis is (x) in (y) has no effect on (z).

It is unethical to add more (x) to (y) to show the effect on (z).

But, eliminating (x) in (y) and monitoring the incidence of (z) is an ethical approach.

If the exclusion of (x) in (y) affects (z) the null hypothesis is incorrect and one may conceptually accept that the hypothesis is correct being (x) in (y) effects (z)

@ dean (#445) and Narad (#446),

My apologies for the arseabout. You two really understand hypothesis testing.

By Michael J. Dochniak (not verified) on 21 Dec 2015 #permalink

@MJD:

have a hypothesis that contamination (x) in vaccine (y) affects the incidence of autism spectrum disorders (z).

The null hypothesis is (x) in (y) has no effect on (z).

And you may stop right there. Multiple large studies and a meta-analysis looking at literally millions of subjects found no difference between the autism rates of the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Therefore, we can confidently say that for any given ingredient (x) in vaccines (y), there is no (x) in (y) that raises the risk of (z).
HTH, HAND.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 21 Dec 2015 #permalink

Hey, bloodletting is a perfectly valid medical practice.

Then again, my grandfather had Haemochromatosis, for which bloodletting to reduce the iron levels is actually the accepted medical procedure. There aren't a whole lot of other conditions for which it's still indicated.

By Jenora Feuer (not verified) on 21 Dec 2015 #permalink

shay simmons,

Is this one going to require brain bleach?

It's Wikipedia, so I doubt it, unless you are very squeamish. Does it help if I tell you that was a fake breast in the offending clip? Probably not. I promise that in future I will add a warning if anything I link to might disturb.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 21 Dec 2015 #permalink

If the exclusion of (x) in (y) affects (z) the null hypothesis is incorrect and one may conceptually accept that the hypothesis is correct being (x) in (y) effects (z)

Only if one doesn't understand p-values, which tell you nothing whatever about what is "correct" and what is "incorrect."

I have led SUCH a sheltered life.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 21 Dec 2015 #permalink

I see tthat WILLIE has a rather, ah, vivid imagination:

Finally autism is a classic autoimmune disease as all of the children or most of them are ANA - Antinuclear Antibody Positive -This means that the native DNA has been infiltrated by another foreign DNA or RNA and the only thing that can do that is a virus- Mercury does not produce a ANA positive test as it does not integrate into the DNA and that is a fact.

I asked ORAC on his web site what he thought of that and he never answered. He sent forth his pawns and I destroyed them each and every one and I am ashamed, well not really I enjoyed ravishing them like unattended cup cakes.
Some of them begged for mercy in their own way and I left them be. Go read it for your edification and enjoyment [he didn't provide a link] as none of them are as smart or well read as any of you. They are for lack of a better phrase, just a mob of trolls and ideologues who will resist the truth and remain defiant to the last- insisting that they are right even though they are clearly wrong. This is a true mark of mental pathology that transcends ordinary incorrigibility.

I'd love to know where he gets his information about "all of the children or most of them are ANA - Antinuclear Antibody Positive" as I know of no testing for such a thing over here...

Nor have I heard any discussion of this from certain internationally respected autism researchers of my acquaintance...But we would be part of Teh Big Pharma etc...

I’d love to know where he gets his information about “all of the children or most of them are ANA – Antinuclear Antibody Positive” as I know of no testing for such a thing over here…

No seriously you don't.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 18 Jan 2016 #permalink

Lol when I saw there was an article about how removing thimerosal from vaccines causes autism I was expecting a satire!