Quoth Vox Day: Antivaxers are more educated. Quoth the study Vox cites: Not exactly...

Vaccines and the antivaccine movement were in the news a lot in 2015. The year started out with a huge measles outbreak originating at Disneyland over the holidays last year and dominated news coverage in the early months of 2015. This outbreak had enormous consequences. It galvanized public opinion such that something I had never thought possible before, least of all in the hotbed of the antivaccine movement that is California, became possible. After a prolonged debate, the California legislature passed SB 277, a law that, beginning with the 2016-2017 school year, eliminated nonmedical exemptions. Starting later this year, there will be no more religious or personal belief exemptions to school vaccine mandates.

Not surprisingly, as the bill wended its way towards passage, the antivaccine movement ratcheted up the rhetoric to ridiculous levels, its favorite analogy being, of course, comparisons to fascism. Some even went so far as to liken antivaccinationists to Jews in Nazi Germany, including everyone's favorite obnoxious antivaccine pediatrician Dr. Bob Sears, who became a leading spokesperson against the law while using it as a marketing tool. After SB 277 passed, the antivaccine movement went even more bonkers, with Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., Brian Hooker, and Barbara Loe Fisher teaming up with the Nation of Islam, which latched on to last year's main antivaccine story that had managed to bleed over to this year, namely the "CDC whistleblower" pseudo-scandal. There was even a rather pathetic joint protest in Atlanta at the CDC attended by representatives of the Nation of Islam in concert with Barbara Loe Fisher and Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.

Through it all, as much as I waded into the crazy in the name of science and reason, there was one crazy I didn't encounter—until now. I'm referring to the arrogance of ignorance personified, someone who likes to brag about being a Mensa member while heaping contempt on science and making spectacularly stupid arguments about vaccines (and other things). Yes, we're talking Vox Day (a.k.a. Theodore Beale), who is really, really psyched about a recent study:

The news that anti-vaxxers are whiter, wealthier, and better-educated than those who place blind faith in vaccines won't surprise anyone who has actually engaged a vaccine enthusiast on the subject. None of them know anything about history, few of them know anything about science, and all of them are prone to simply repeating the usual vaccine scare rhetoric:

Oh, yes. I can see why Vox would like this study. In his mind it confirms his own view of himself, as being intellectually superior to all of us mere sheeple who accept the science behind vaccines, support vaccination as the single most effective means of preventing many deadly diseases, and devote considerable time to refuting the pseudoscience promoted by antivaccine loons like Vox Day. Of course, if he were so intellectually superior, he wouldn't so horribly misunderstand epidemiology in order to blame sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) on vaccines with such spectacularly brain dead arguments, nor would he cough up such a hairball of asininity (to borrow one of his phrases) that involves a fundamental misunderstanding of herd immunity and how vaccines work. Of course, that's part of the problem that he shares with his fellow antivaccinationists, as we will see.

So what about this study? It's in the January issue of the American Journal of Public Health and entitled Sociodemographic Predictors of Vaccination Exemptions on the Basis of Personal Belief in California. It comes from investigators at George Mason University and Stanford University, and its goal was quite simple: To examine the variability in the percentage of students with personal belief exemptions (PBE) to school vaccine mandates in California and see if there are correlations with income, education, race, and school characteristics. Investigators examined PBE data from the California Department of Public health from 2007 to 2013, including school- and regional-level models. Their rationale is as follows:

Use of nonmedical exemptions has increased over time, especially in states that make them easy for parents to obtain. In California, the percentage of schoolchildren with a nonmedical or “personal belief” exemption (PBE; defined as including both philosophical and religious objections), climbed from 0.77% in the 2000–2001 school year to nearly 3.15% by 2013–2014—well above the median rate of 1.8% across all states. Media commentators on this phenomenon have suggested that the number of PBEs in California had doubled since 2007 and pointed to wealthy, highly educated parents as the primary drivers. Although some evidence suggests that higher exemption rates are associated with higher population proportions of Whites, college graduates, and higherincome households, few rigorous, multiyear studies have investigated data beyond 2007, hindering efforts to understand and respond to recent rises in PBEs.

I actually wrote about one such study six months ago, when I referred to the faces of antivaccine parents as "overwhelmingly affluent, white, and suburban." The study basically found pretty much what I described. PBE rates correlate positively with the percentage of white students in a school, with charter status, and private schools, while schools with low PBE rates tended to be public, noncharter, and nonsuburban, with lower percentages of white students and higher percentages of students receiving subsidized lunches. The current study, which Vox likes so much, shows similar results but in a different way.

When presenting data, I like to say that a picture is worth a thousand words (not that that ever stopped me from describing a result using a thousand words, of course). So here's the picture. What it shows is the overall, state-level relationships between PBEs and key variables from the analysis.

Vaccination data

As you can see, in general, 2013 PBE percentages were higher in regions with higher income, education, and White population. So, yes, there's a correlation there. But it's not quite as clear as Vox would make it seem, which is not surprising given that it's obvious that he just read the news reports but didn't actually look up the paper. He leapt at the observation in the New York Times article describing the study, which described it thusly:

Exemption percentages were generally higher in regions with higher income, higher levels of education, and predominantly white populations. In private schools, 5.43 percent of children were exempt, compared with 2.88 percent in public schools.

Which is true enough, but the Nicholas Bakalar, the author of the NYT piece, missed a very key part of the study. It's a part of the study that the writer for Ars Technica, Beth Mole, who wrote about the story didn't miss. Basically, the study did not show that higher educational attainment predicts the likelihood of PBE percentage. Quite the opposite, in fact. The authors, in describing their model predicting change in PBEs over time, report:

Educational attainment did not independently predict 2013 PBEs. More educated populations had slower rates of change in PBE percentages from 2007 to 2013 (P ≤ .01). For example, in the school-level block group model, a 10% increase in the percentage of the population with a college degree was associated with a 0.025% decrease in the annual rate of growth from 2007 to 2013.

In other words, there was a negative correlation between the percentage of the population with a college degree and the rate of PBE growth from 2007 to 2013. Or, as the authors explain:

We found that areas of California with higher household income and proportion White population are associated with higher overall PBE percentages as well as greater increases in PBEs from 2007 to 2013. In contrast to some previous studies, we did not find an independent predictive effect of educational attainment level once we controlled for those characteristics. Although the marginal effects of income and race were modest in magnitude, the overall PBE percentage doubled from 2007 to 2013, and more than 17 000 PBEs were issued in California in 2013.

In other words, although there might be a correlation in the raw data between educational level of the population and percentage of PBEs, it's not an independent predictor. Control for other socioeconomic factors, and it the correlation between education and PBEs goes away. To be honest, I was rather surprised by this result, not so much because I think antivaccinationists are more intelligent, but rather based on my personal experience of constantly hearing antivaccine activists proclaim how educated and intelligent they are I rather expected there to be a correlation. I also rather expected there to be a correlation because more educated people tend to be much better at motivated reasoning; namely constructing arguments and cherry picking data to protect their pre-existing beliefs. Of course, this is just one study, and the authors note that their results don't agree with some previous studies. Even so, I can't help but feel a bit of amusement at how quick Vox was to latch on to this study as confirming his self-image of being oh-so-much more intelligent than everyone else.

Of course, it's hard to take anyone seriously, Mensa or no Mensa, who says such howlingly stupid things as:

The very simple fact of the matter is that vaccines are far, far less important in halting the spread of infectious disease than controlling entry and immigration from non-first world countries. This is obvious, since vaccine rates are still very high in the USA and Western Europe, and yet there is a massive rise in various diseases that is the direct result of global travel and large-scale immigration.

The idea that the current vaccine schedule is responsible for the huge decline in deaths from infectious diseases in the 19th century is not merely ahistorical, it requires a combination of ignorance and stupidity. This will become readily apparent before long as most children will continue to be vaccinated but disease rates will continue to rise thanks to the behavior and lifestyles of the New Americans.

Um. No. Overall vaccination rates might be high in the US, but there are pockets of low vaccine uptake in, yes, affluent white suburbs, particularly along the coasts. Guess what? That's where the outbreaks are happening! As for Europe, Vox is clearly rather ignorant if he thinks vaccine rates are so high in Western Europe. Indeed, health officials in Western Europe are envious of us in the US because there are way, way more cases of measles there every year right now. I know Vox thinks it's because of what he views as all those damned dirty apes immigrants flooding Europe, but in reality it's almost entirely due to low MMR uptake.

Meanwhile, Vox is, in his usual brain dead fashion, parroting the myth of the "diseased illegal immigrant." In fact, children from central America have higher vaccine uptake rates than children in, for example, Texas:

Fact check: UNICEF reports that 93 percent of kids in Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador are vaccinated against measles. That’s better than American kids (92 percent).

Furthermore, it’s absurd to claim that the U.S. has eradicated measles while Central America has not. In fact, measles outbreaks have resurged in some American cities. By contrast, according to the World Health Organization, neither Guatemala nor Honduras has had a reported case of measles since 1990.

Truly, Vox Day's stupid, it burns. Same as it ever was.

In the meantime, waht are the implications of this study, which Vox so wildly mischaracterized? One implication is that simply disseminating information will not persuade antivaccine parents, but we've known this for a long time. In this area, what the authors of the study conclude makes a lot of sense:

Some have reasoned from findings that high-PBE communities are better educated that public health strategies should focus on disseminating more scientific data on vaccine safety and the consequences of vaccine preventable illnesses.27 Our results call into question the reported link between high-PBE communities and higher average educational attainment, and other research also points to the need for messages that extend beyond providing vaccine safety data. For example, although there is little doubt that misperceptions of vaccine risks drive vaccine refusals, also important may be beliefs among upper-income, White parents that protective parenting techniques are effective substitutes for immunizations.

If you follow the antivaccine movement as long as I have, you'll soon realize the overwhelming sense of privilege among antivaccine parents. They don't feel any obligation to contribute to herd immunity, while thinking nothing of sponging off of it, hence "Dr. Bob" Sears' famous admonition to "hide in the herd." They also have an exaggerated sense of what parenting alone can accomplish beyond any connection with reality. For example, many of them really do seem to think that just by feeding their children the right foods, engaging them in the "right" activities, providing them with the "right" supplements, and in general having them live the "right" lifestyle, they can render their child virtually immune to harm from infectious disease. (Calling Bill Maher!) Couple that with a belief that "natural" immunity from the disease is better than vaccine-induced immunity (which to them is artificial), and such parents believe that their children's immune systems can handle anything, no vaccines needed, and that measles and chicken pox parties are a great way to give their children that "natural immunity." It's a dangerous delusion. I like to call it immunity by virtue: Live virtuously and you'll be healthy and no microbe will harm you. Unfortunately, microbes don't give a rodent's posterior how virtuous your or your child's lifestyle is.

It's easy to make fun of idiots like Vox Day because, well, he's such an arrogantly ignorant putz, prone to having proposed racist Donald Trump-like ideas years before Donald Trump embraced them. Refuting this ideas that drive antivaccine sentiments is hard because people are inherently resistant to having their deepest held beliefs challenged.

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anti-vaxxers are whiter, wealthier, and better-educated

It goes without saying that for Beale >fils the three are synonymous.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 29 Dec 2015 #permalink

also important may be beliefs among upper-income, White parents that protective parenting techniques are effective substitutes for immunizations.

Wow, what a nice way of saying "privileged @$$holes who think only poor, dirty brown people get sick." I wish I had that kind of tact. I mean, I probably wouldn't use it that often, but it's always nice to have options. I'm surprised the authors didn't mention one of the most obvious reasons that providing scientific data has little to no effect on antivaxxers: their belief that pharmaceutical companies are somehow colluding with every public health agency, research institution, and scientific organization on the planet to fabricate evidence that vaccines are safe and effective and cover up evidence that they actually cause more harm than they prevent.

Unfortunately, there's some truth to the image of MENSA as a mutual admiration society for underachievers who focus on their high IQ scores to compensate for a lack of actual accomplishments. I joined during a low period of my life, when I was working a menial job and wondering what I was going to do with my life after graduating with a useless BA in philosophy and my pre-med requirements incomplete. I was hoping to find some of the intellectual stimulation I missed from college, but it turned out to be boring and trivial. To be fair, I never joined any special interest groups, which are supposed to be where the real fun is. In fact, IIRC, there were several SIGs for things like ESP, alternative medicine, etc. - so clearly a high IQ is no insurance against the human capacity for self-deception (as if we needed any more evidence.)

Indeed, the defining charactetistic of anti-vaxxers is their arrogance.

This is seen in their dismissal of the scientific evidence in favour of their own beliefs, their belief that their parenting methods are somehow better and will protect their children from all dangers, and most of all in their belief that confirming the pre-existing beliefs through the Universe of Google is an acceptible substitute for critical thinking.

And the privilege, mostly the privilege.

I have had a quick read of the paper and caution all that this is firstly about California and that there are numerous co-founders at the school enrollment level. The authors have had an attempt to deal with these, but I expect they have not got everything. There is a real pattern of like-minded parents gravitating to the same schools.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 29 Dec 2015 #permalink

The very simple fact of the matter is that vaccines are far, far less important in halting the spread of infectious disease than controlling entry and immigration from non-first world countries.

Not just howlingly stupid but blatantly racist to boot.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 29 Dec 2015 #permalink

Because mine is the 'superior intellect'.....

too bad the title picture wasn't of Kahn (the original, of course), it would have been so fitting

Vox Day/Ted Beale...oh what a charmer. He's not only smarter than everyone else, he's better looking, richer, sexier...you name the positive adjective, he's applied it to himself. IIRC he's also a misogynistic Catholic creationist (but I haven't looked at any of his blatherings in years. PZ Myers used to have go-rounds with him). Women are secondary intelligences, and only good for being barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen.

TBH, I generally find that if Vox is FOR something, it's the far more intelligent choice to be AGAINST that thing. He works as a good barometer that way. :)

# 5 Julian Frost
Well if we edit the sentence to The very simple fact of the matter is that vaccines are far, far less important in halting the spread of infectious disease than controlling entry from California we may have something.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/03/10/measles-lanaudiere-quebec-canad…. I know I'm being snarky but most of this years outbreaks in Canada seemed linked to California.

By jrkrideau (not verified) on 30 Dec 2015 #permalink

MI Dawn@7

Vox Day/Ted Beale…oh what a charmer. He’s not only smarter than everyone else, he’s better looking, richer, sexier…you name the positive adjective, he’s applied it to himself.

Don't forget whiter. Heck, that's the first this he lists in the quote.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 30 Dec 2015 #permalink

When I was much younger, I thought MENSA might be a great thing to join. Then I met some members and read about some of the SIGs and figured it was rank with stupidity and arrogance. My impression continues to hold.

Perhaps the U.S. should institute something akin to Australia's policy. Those who get their kids vaccinated (or who have a valid medical exemption) get a tax break. You do something for society, society does something for you.

What is the average education level of immunologists, pediatricians and infectious disease specialists compared to that of antivaxers?

Kind of bewildering that antivaxers who deride experts are simultaneously trumpeting their superior educational status.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 30 Dec 2015 #permalink

@Dangerous Bacon #12: For the antivaxer, they will latch onto the Bob Sears/Jay Gordon/ quack doctors as proof that I must be mis-educated about vaccines, since Sears/Gordon are similarly educated to me. To them the outliers are the truth.

By Chris Hickie (not verified) on 30 Dec 2015 #permalink

But Dr Hickie - you aren't *enlightened* like those doctors, about the evils of Big Pharma and the benefits of selling supplements in your office, working with chiroquacks and not-a-doctors. Tsk. Therefore, you are mis-educated. (/snark)

TBH, while I am glad my daughter has left Arizona (although she has broken her parents' hearts by moving to - shudder - Columbus, OH - where that OTHER university is), if she had stayed in Tucson, I would have made sure she became a client of yours if she had children.

From the Slate article on the Hugo Awards:

"A quick sidebar on Vox Day, one of a handful of this saga’s bold-faced names. In addition to writing sci-fi, he’s a video game designer and early proponent of Gamergate, which, he argues, resembles Sad Puppies in that “both groups are striking back against the left-wing control freaks who have subjected science fiction to ideological control for two decades and are now attempting to do the same thing in the game industry.” He is the second human being to be expelled from the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America (SFWA), after he used the organization’s official Twitter feed to slam the award-winning black novelist N.K. Jemisin as a “half-savage.” He questions the need for women’s suffrage. And he believes that our national ills can be partially attributed to “the infestation of even the smallest American heartland towns by African, Asian, and Aztec cultures.” Yes, Aztecs. ANYWAY."

'Nuff said.

By NH Primary Care Doc (not verified) on 30 Dec 2015 #permalink

Vox Day. When I first encountered that name, it was not in connection with his anti-vax rhetoric but with his attempt to manipulate the Hugo awards:

Now I remember where I'm familiar with him from! George R.R. Martin did a series of blog posts about his and his ilk's attempts to hijack the Hugos (because women are ruining science fiction, dontcha know?) that I read with horror and sadness.

Racist, misogynist jackass. I can now add stupid to that assessment. But, yes, he is white. Gives the rest of us a bad name.

About that 'more educated' factor..

Seriously.
If you look in detail at prominent anti-vaxxers ( who may or may not be representative of the entire movement), you'll discover that they may have university- even graduate- degrees but in non-life science fields but like business, computers and education.

Examples like Dan Olmsted, Kim Stagliano, Mark Blaxill, Louise Kuo Habakus, Barbara Loe Fisher, TMR's LJ Goes, 'Professor' O'Toole, Katie Wright, Ginger Taylor and Alison MacNeil** immediately spring to mind.
The scientists that they quote and emulate may have similar deficits - Brian Hooker, Stefanie Seneff and Boyd Haley- to name a few. ( See list of speakers at Autism One) However doctors have less of an excuse ( AJW, Tenpenny, Bark etc).

Because I work with adult prospective students I often have to look over required courses for degrees in business-y matters and can vouch that usually they have little to no exposure to relevant courses.

** those last three have degrees in social science unfortunately.
We're not all like that. Some of us studied biology and statistics.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 30 Dec 2015 #permalink

I agree with your article; but there is one additional aspect, something one runs across now and again. There are people who are extremely intelligent and well-educated, based on years of schooling and experience, who assume they can render opinions on subjects they have not invested time and energy in. For example, a PhD in electrical engineering or chemistry, subjects that take a lot of intelligence and time to master, who, assume that they know more than PhDs in epidemiology and infectious disease experts, equally intelligent and who have devoted years and immense effort into mastering their respective fields.

Medical doctors sometimes are guilty of the same error. Medical doctors are NOT trained in research per se nor epidemiology nor biostatistics. Years ago the field of Clinical Epidemiology was developed; but many doctors have NOT devoted time to learning it. Just to go down memory lane, back in the early days of AIDS a cardiologist in Houston, despite what all the epidemiologists and infectious disease experts were finding, was on radio talk shows frightening people with claims that AIDS could be transmitted by mosquitos.

So, while your article is correct, there are highly intelligent well-educated people who still DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT.

By Joel A. Harris… (not verified) on 30 Dec 2015 #permalink

Sure. This is something I've written about more times than I can remember. You have Brian Hooker, who is a biochemical engineer by training, waxing poetic about how he thinks simplicity is best in statistics and epidemiology, seemingly unaware that simple methods produce misleading results because they don't control for confounders. You have idiots like Vox Day thinking they can learn about vaccines and epidemiology well enough to declare vaccines largely unnecessary just by reading Google and antivaccine websites. you see pediatricians like Dr. Bob Sears and Jay Gordon think that they can interpret epidemiology and immunology better than real epidemiologists or immunologists, with Dr. Jay thinking his "personal observations" and "30+ years of clinical experience" trump epidemiology and immunology.

It can even be in your own field. For example, we have the "CDC whistleblower" himself, William Thompson, who, although his primary training is in psychology, clearly has a lot of background in epidemiology and statistics, suddenly deciding that the Atlanta study was horrifically mis-analyzed and that there was a signal in there linking MMR to autism in African-American boys, even though there clearly was not. Even though he's not an epidemiologist or statistician by training, there's no doubt that Thompson had been deeply invested in studying epidemiology and statistics in his role as a CDC scientist working on vaccine studies. Yet that didn't prevent him from going apparently full antivax.

And then there's Jake wasting ( a) relevant graduate degree/s.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 30 Dec 2015 #permalink

@ Dr Joel Harrison:

I do believe that you created quite a splash at AoA.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 30 Dec 2015 #permalink

According to a recent Gallup poll, the belief that vaccines cause autism is only slightly higher among US adults with college educations (7%) than among those with only a high school degree or less (6%)---but those who have done graduate work or achieved advanced degrees are less likely (3%) to believe that swill. So much for anti-vaxxers being "better educated."

http://www.gallup.com/poll/181844/percentage-saying-vaccines-vital-dips…

I have some weird people defending this Vox dude on Twitter and attacking me.

Anyway, if you read the paper, it really is quite interesting how they conducted this study and the results. As Orac has pointed out, it uncovers things we've suspected and dispels the self-aggrandizing myth of antivaxxers that they are more educated or know more. It's right there in the abstract. If you're too lazy to read even the abstract, then there's no hope for you, MENSA or no MENSA.

Vox Day isn't 'stupid' he's just a very warped and disgusting human human being. No, the Stupid Award of the day goes to the authors of the study, and anyone else (oh no, Orac?) who imagines it offers any useful guidelines for 'public health messaging strategies'. The demographic categories are so broad as to be meaningless in defining audience characteristics, and the assumptions being made about what they imply are simply ridiculous.

Some have reasoned from findings that high-PBE communities are better educated that public health strategies should focus on disseminating more scientific data on vaccine safety and the consequences of vaccine preventable illnesses.

Talk about burning stupid! It ought to be obvious that simply obtaining a college degree in something not only doesn't equip someone to comprehend scientific data, it doesn't have any relevance in whether someone will find that data persuasive in comparison to other sets of facts, beliefs, emotional appeals, yada, yada, yada. The relevant factor in education background viz science data is likely not 'smart/dumb' but rather socialization in appreciating/accepting the results of natural science research. The majority of smart, well-educated people ind stats dull as dishwater outside of perhaps their own professional field.

there is little doubt that misperceptions of vaccine risks drive vaccine refusals

Uhh, NO! The issue isn't 'perception', it's interpretation. Non-vaxing parents know, generally, what the data say about risks – they just don't believe it, or have different criteria for assessing risk. If they're worried enough about the possibility of having an ASD child, that emotion will lead them to over-value any claim of risk about that, and under-value any claim about VPDs, either for their kids or the community.

The factors that go into "the sense of privilege' Orac discusses near the end of the OP are far too specific and complex to be ascribed to 'whiteness' 'education' 'affluence' or 'suburbia'. Obviously, the majority of parents in those demographic categories DO vax their kids, and the study does nothing to address one thing we do now about vax-refusal and PBEs — they cluster in relatively small geographic areas that are demographically similar to surrounding areas with much higher vax rates.

also important may be beliefs among upper-income, White parents that protective parenting techniques are effective substitutes for immunizations.

This painfully tortured grammar is basically expressing an 'all men are Socrates' logic error. 'The belief that protective parenting techniques are effective substitutes for immunizations' being more common among upper-income, White parents than other demographics, but that hardly makes it a characteristic of those categories. In short, they're not 'predictive' of anything.

There's also a totally unsupported implicit assumption here that 'belief that protective parenting techniques are effective substitutes for immunizations' is a defining factor in the choice not-to-vax. We can probably say with some confidence that most anti-vax activists have such a belief, but we know they're an extremist fringe, whose numbers are not large enough to cause vax rates to drop enough to threaten community immunity and generate VPD outbreaks. We can't confidently say all, or even most parents who have enough doubts about vax safety to avoid taking their kids in for their shots believe they have superior parenting skills that will keep their kids disease-free. We can only say they're more afraid of autism than they are of measles and whooping cough.

And I find it odd that the matter of 'fear' is absent from this discussion. It makes sense that fear of autism would have some correlation with higher SES, if only in that lower-income, non-Whites have a lot more sh!t to worry about. But while a certain level of privilege may be a necessary precondition of non-vaxing-level fear of autism, it's hardly therefore causative in any way.

The question is, 'what makes autism a driving fear for the parents who seek PBEs?'. I doubt there's one answer, but I'll speculate that rising general angst among the White middle-class at their declining economic fortunes and socio-cultural power has a lot to do with it. We see this angst projected into all manner of superficially bizarre phenomena these days — perhaps most notably in the Trump effect. In short, no-vaxing may not be about the reality of vaccines or autism at all, but how these things function as displacements for other concerns among a certain sub-set of the population facing similar apparent socio-economic crises they can't really comprehend or address within their ideological frames of reference.

A goodly number of these supposedly super-educated antivaxers complain about vaccine "toxins", touting a list of vaccine excipients that supposedly prove that ghastly chemicals are making their way into vaccines.

I found another list that should be quite shocking to anyone who thinks that "natural food" suppliers are going out of their way to produce toxin-free products. It's the TruNatural list of approved product ingredients used by natural food manufacturers (like YumEarth candies). Among the approved ingredients:

Alginic acid, calcium pantothenate, cyclamates, caustic soda, glucono delta-lactone, magnesium stearate, propylene glycol alginate, quinine, sodium pyrophosphate, titanium dioxide, triclosan and my personal favorite, yellow prussiate of soda (sodium ferrocyanide).

http://www.yummyearth.com/files/TruNatural_Ingredient_List_-_09-20-11_u…

Yummy!

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 30 Dec 2015 #permalink

Ah, yes, the racist, sexist, homophobic dipshit* who blithely lies about everything in sight and then insists he is being "dialectic" when called on it over on File 770. He is also a defender of Anders Brevik. As we say elsenet, if VD said that the sun was going to rise in the east, we'd go out and check for ourselves, even if we'd had no previous reason to doubt that statement.

*John Scalzi gets credit for that phrasing.

Ren:

Anti-vaxers believe they 'more educated' about vaccines than the sheeple who follow the advice of Pharma-Shill doctors. In this usage 'education' is a quality not a quantity. That is, it has nothing to do with how many of 'them' or 'us' have received a college degree. The study does not rebut this belief, 'dispel this myth'. The anti-vaxers are likely smart enough to 'get' at some level that the simple fact that college degrees are more common among PBE seekers than the rest of the population means diddly-squat. (Education level may simply correlate with the skill-set and resources necessary to actually obtain a PBE...) But we know that their first principle of 'the vaccines destroyed my perfect child' will govern their rhetoric, and ANYTHING they can bend to support the cause will so be bent. That worldview is total command of the show with that crowd, and everything gets seen through that lens.

@Sadmar

You seem to be taking this whole thing quite strongly, if not personally. Wanna taco 'bout it?

I wonder if the belief itself that a child can BE 'perfect' is largely restricted to a particular demographic that includes suburbanites exhibiting university degrees, affluence and dreams of continued upward mobility.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 30 Dec 2015 #permalink

I wonder if the belief itself that a child can BE ‘perfect’ is largely restricted to a particular demographic that includes suburbanites exhibiting university degrees, affluence and dreams of continued upward mobility.

There used to be some talk about "premium babies", referring to the children of the demographic you mentioned but especially when the couple (woman?) waited until later to have a baby. So, even more so if it was an only child, all those hopes of upward mobility and showing up the other mothers at the playground with a perfect child were pinned on the one poor tot.

DB:
Propylene glycol alginate? (that's anti-freeze, right?) Sodium pyrophosphate?? ('pyro' means 'fire', are we swallowing matches?) Titanium dioxide??? (that's METAL!), Sodium ferrocyanide???? (What? CYANIDE!! Toxin! Toxin!! Toxin!!!)

Sombody alert The Food Babe! The chemical fox has invaded nature's hen house! Assemble The Army! Petitions must be started! Boycotts must be called for! YumEarth must must pay! (Checks made out to 'Food Babe LLC' accepted, cash transfers to Swiss account routed through the Caymen Islands preferred.)

We can probably say with some confidence that most anti-vax activists have such a belief, but we know they’re an extremist fringe, whose numbers are not large enough to cause vax rates to drop enough to threaten community immunity and generate VPD outbreaks.

Sadmar, are you saying that anti-vax activists in general are so small of a minority they can't cause reductions in vax rates that lead to outbreaks, or that AV activists with that belief [i.e., good parenting is protective] are in such a small minority as to not cause outbreak-producing drops in vax rates?

Denise:
Not 'restricted'. A lot of religious doctrine views infants as 'perfect' in some way... More prevalent maybe. Meg makes a good point.

Ren:
Nah, I just write that way. Theater major. I 'spose I get more dramatic on vax stuff because it's a serious public health issue, and team pro-vax is so clueless about diagnosing the different cultural phenonema behind low vax uptake rates, and forming effective persuasion strategies to make things better. Gotta go do some IRL stuff, so no taco's today, much less a whole enchilada. Be well, and have a safe and happy NYE, my virtual friend.

@Orac

As for William Thompson, I'm not sure what motivates him. Some of his claims not only don't make sense; but may not even be true. However, there has always been "scientists" who have taken stands that the overwhelming majority of scientists and the data refutes. Take the few scientists who claimed tobacco wasn't associated with a number of health problems or the few scientists who oppose global warming. Several of the above, of course, received financing from industry. As for Thompson ? ? ?

@Denise Walter

I hope you are right about my making a splash at AOA. What do you base this on? However, I am but one cog in the wheel of science. Gorski, Mat Carey, Skeptical Raptor, and many more have contributed far more than I have; but I do try.

By Joel A. Harris… (not verified) on 30 Dec 2015 #permalink

Denice, I live in the land of those folks and am technically one of them, and you are not wrong. Lots of Mandarin-learning, kale-fed organically dressed Noras and Noahs bearing the weight of their parents ridiculous expectations.

@BoxTurtle

You have just made my day.

The issue isn’t ‘perception’, it’s interpretation. Non-vaxing parents know, generally, what the data say about risks – they just don’t believe it, or have different criteria for assessing risk

Exactly. Beginning a sentence with the phrase "The CDC says..." or "Studies show..." ensures that an antivaxxer isn't even going to consider the attached information, because they know that the CDC is in bed with Big Bad Pharma, that scientific research is bought and paid for, etc. The problem is that, at first blush, this mistrust seems justified: pharmaceutical companies have been caught hiding and/or falsifying data, scientists are susceptible to bias and conflicts of interest, government organizations are influenced by the political realities that control their funding. No attempt to "educate" antivaxxers is going to be successful unless it acknowledges these facts head on and then points out the enormous difference in plausibility between, for example, Merck hiding data suggesting that taking Vioxx results in a small increase in the absolute risk of having a heart attack* (and still getting caught!) versus multiple competing pharmaceutical companies colluding with the public health organizations of multiple nations, paying off hundreds of thousands of pediatricians and nurses to keep quite about the catastrophic side effects they witness after giving kids vaccines, etc.

*I absolutely do not mean to imply that what Merck did was somehow "not that big a deal," my point is that the only reason they got away with it as long as they did is because the increase in the absolute number of heart attacks in patients taking Vioxx was relatively small and thus, not readily apparent until someone actually ran the numbers. This is, of course, very similar to the antivax claim that the link between vaccines and autism (or whatever the boogieman of the week is) is overlooked by large epidemiological studies because it only affects a small subset of children.

The issue isn’t ‘perception’, it’s interpretation. Non-vaxing parents know, generally, what the data say about risks – they just don’t believe it, or have different criteria for assessing risk

Gonna have to disagree with you there. It's both perception and interpretation. Yes, antivax parents misinterpret the science. However, in their bubble echo chamber, antivax parents also hear the stories of their friends who blame their children's disability, autism, whatever on vaccines. They mistakenly perceive that seemingly ALL their friends have children whom they believe to have been damaged vaccines. That causes a perception that, damn whatever the CDC statistics say, there are lots and lots of "vaccine-injured" children out there. From there it's a short jump to believing that the government and medical profession are "covering up" all those "vaccine-injured children" that antivaxers just know are out there because they've seen them and they've talked to their parents.

As for William Thompson, I’m not sure what motivates him. Some of his claims not only don’t make sense; but may not even be true.

There's no "may" about it. Several of Thompson's claims are demonstrably just plain not true.

@ Delphine:

Around here, It's a rather mixed bag but we do have enclaves of exceedingly precious bohemian bourgeoisie- I actually went to a holiday party rife with them and their spawn-
as well as pockets of pop or movie stars and alt med
celebrities.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 30 Dec 2015 #permalink

@ Dr Joel Harrison:

As a 'splash', I didn't necessarily mean a conversion or suchlike - you certainly got them riled up.

BUT they did allow you several comments and didn't censor you . Amazing for them. Perhaps they mistakenly believed that they had answers for your questions/ statements.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 30 Dec 2015 #permalink

Uhh, NO! The issue isn’t ‘perception’, it’s interpretation.

And perhaps it is still only 'belief' that is relevant, sadmar #25. Defacto compulsory vaccination would cause those with certain beliefs to 'feel' and be violated; To become always burdened with perceived prescience that *this will all end in tears* --( Marvin, the paranoid android). It would be validating and force multiplying martyrdom when the statistical game does harm a child.
If a thing can be done, it will be done by someone (corporations are granted personhood status) eventually; especially if it is a particularly 'evil' thing to do. Vaccines have the potential to be a vehicle for genetic manipulation, introduction of malignancy, genocide, birth control, and pimples. Will it become forced to take a mind-altering vaccine against 'addiction', drug and alcohol 'abuse', preferring Android over IOS? Will Mike Adams' somewhat debunked FUNVAX scenario actually become a reality -- The audio is plausible? Of course, it will. Completely aside from concerns of disease, it will become so in the very spirit of THX 1138's *drug evasion statutes*.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/conspiracy/funvax.asp

Those who get their kids vaccinated... get a tax break. You do something for society, society does something for you.

Nifty, Todd W. #10. And maybe it could be giving kids Xbox for recieving the shot; even if gotten surreptitiously. And maybe it could be like unto Indira Gandhi's 'Family Planning' campaign where

In two short weeks we sent sales of Philips transistor radios into a death spiral with a campaign promising a free transistor radio to every man who signed up for a vasectomy. ...

... many of the poorly educated country people and the beggars were so ill-informed of what they were losing in order to get the radio, that they didn’t see why they shouldn’t line up again to get a second one.

https://globalmediacabot.wordpress.com/2011/02/19/indias-family-plan-2/

I have no problem imagining the implementation of mass vaccination via mosquitoes and it, either intentionally or not, going horribly wrong, Joel A. Harrison, PhD, MPH #19. Other than that, "You can get AIDS from a toilet seat if you sit down before the other fellow gets up" -- C. Everett Koop (Mrs.)

I am not sure why so many people are obsessed with their child being 'perfect'. What does perfect mean? Both of my children were born only through many months (a year each) of painful, frustrating, emotionally draining fertility treatments. They are both perfect. They are perfect the way they are. They are both very different already, and that is perfect too. They will be perfect whether or not they excel at sports. They will be perfect whether or not they choose to play a band instrument. They will be perfect whether or not they are artistic or exceed at school. They will be perfect whether they are gay or straight. They will be perfect for me in all ways, in every way, because I am their mother. I only ask that they be happy for themselves with whatever they do. And have me a grandbaby. Adopt one or something, momma needs someone to spoil in her dotage. As for Vox Day, I really can't think of a more vile human being. I read a lot about him in the Hugo awards flap, and he makes me sick. Racist, misogynist, ignoramus is a kind way to describe him.

I have no problem imagining the implementation of mass vaccination via mosquitoes

Given your previous appearance, this is not exactly surprising.

Defacto compulsory vaccination would cause those with certain beliefs to ‘feel’ and be violated

Sorry, but calling school vaccine requirements "compulsory vaccination" is still bull$hit even if you tack on the token qualifier "de facto" - public education is not some basic necessity that's being denied vaccine dodgers (in this instance I'm using the word "public" in the broader sense of "something that takes place around other people," i.e., people who may be harmed by your refusal to practice reasonable public health precautions, since it's entirely possible to receive an education without ever entering a school building.)

No doubt people who hold the belief that the sun won't come up unless Huitzilopochtli is fed with the blood of sacrificial victims feel terribly violated by our society's unwillingness to respect their beliefs, and no doubt it's terribly stressful to be " burdened with perceived prescience" that the human race is going to end due to our perverse refusal to let them rip the beating hearts out of POWs, but I can't say I feel terribly sorry for them. Not sorry enough to actually let them practice human sacrifice, anyways.

I have no problem imagining the implementation of mass vaccination via mosquitoes and it, either intentionally or not, going horribly wrong

I have no problem imagining that you're a child molester - what's your point?

I bet Vox Day supports Donald Trump. Same simplistic answers to complex issues.

By Maureen Chuck (not verified) on 30 Dec 2015 #permalink

They may be more educated, but if they were well-educated they wouldn’t be antivaxxers.

By Old Rockin' Dave (not verified) on 30 Dec 2015 #permalink

One can only imagine what Vox Day's reaction was to the new Star Wars movie.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 30 Dec 2015 #permalink

The very simple fact of the matter is that vaccines are far, far less important in halting the spread of infectious disease than controlling entry and immigration from non-first world countries.

Does...does he not know what the word "infectious" means? Is he unaware that diseases can spread to the US from third world countries without any citizen of those countries actually coming here and coughing on us?

By Anton Mates (not verified) on 30 Dec 2015 #permalink

The membership of Mensa is the best evidence that IQ is woefully inadequate measure of intelligence.

Vicki a @27

He is also a defender of Anders Brevik.

Colour me unsurprised.

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 30 Dec 2015 #permalink

“Vaccines and the antivaccine movement were in the news a lot in 2015. The year started out with a huge measles outbreak originating at Disneyland over the holidays last year and dominated news coverage in the early months of 2015. This outbreak had ENORMOUS CONSEQUENCES.”

Let’s start with the most enormous:
1)How many died as a result of this measles outbreak?
2)How many lived but suffered irreparable harm?

By See Noevo (not verified) on 30 Dec 2015 #permalink

@Julian
It's legit, though the description of application to vaccines is much narrower than reality.

do a web search for Limulus amebocyte lysate
or alternatively for pyrogen testing

All injectable products are subject to testing.

Someone must have mentioned creationism, SeeNoevo has arrived to write more ignorance.

The questions themselves demonstrate that SeeNoevo didn't read (or just as likely didn't understand) the article.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 30 Dec 2015 #permalink

BTW, if anyone's interested, you should check out Vox Day's idiotic attacks on me on Twitter. (@voxday) They've drawn the attention of William Shatner. :-)

With regard to William Thompson, I get a slight impression of the paranoid delusions I've seen in the relatively early stages of Alzheimer's disease. I sincerely hope for his sake that that isn't what is happening. It tends to go away, but an awful lot of other "things" go away along with the paranoia.

They’ve drawn the attention of William Shatner.

OK, I laughed at that, though I have no idea why.

Perception and interpretation feed each other. Confirmation bias is an obvious example of this. The tendency toward "crank magnetism" is another example. One tends to see what one already "knows." Science is, in part, an attempt to separate the two, but that's hardly the most common mode of thought for most people. And there is very little effort to educate people to think that way outside of formal education in the sciences (and I'd argue even that has become diluted by more and more rote memorization).

By weirdnoise (not verified) on 30 Dec 2015 #permalink

shay simmons@52

One can only imagine what Vox Day’s reaction was to the new Star Wars movie.

Given that he retweeted this I'd say it's exactly what you would expect.

People complaining about the new #StarWars movie need to realise social justice is more important than making sense or entertainment.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 30 Dec 2015 #permalink

Does anyone know if Vox Day adopted that pen name as a homonymn of the Latin Vox Dei, which would, I suppose, mean "The Word of God'?

(I am not a Latin scholar, and have certainly never had my version of "Romans Go Home" corrected at swordpoint.)

I'm not religious in the first place, but "Vox" certainly doesn't speak for any God i'd choose to worship.
I

By palindrom (not verified) on 30 Dec 2015 #permalink

@Gilbert - I'm constantly surprised at the number of Americans that seem to think their government has nothing better to do than plan mass murder of it's own citizens. However, given the attitude to guns in America, I'm really surprised that you haven't realised that the only defence against ebil vaccines is to get vaccines of your own.

By NumberWang (not verified) on 31 Dec 2015 #permalink

@Chris Preston: Someone must have mentioned creationism, SeeNoevo has arrived to write more ignorance.

The questions themselves demonstrate that SeeNoevo didn’t read (or just as likely didn’t understand) the article.

(raises hand shamefully) That was me, since Vox Day falls into the same puddle of ignorance/religous fanaticism. Sorry. I forgot that word was a dog whistle to SN.

@Orac: now I'm really glad that today will be a 1/2 day...I can check on the Twitter feed mentioned when I get to my home computer. I appreciate a good laugh.

Can some Latin scholar tell us whether or not Vox Day's nom-de-plume is meant as a homonym of the latin Vox Dei, which would be (I think) "Voice of God"?

If so, that would seem, uh ... a little presumptuous.

I never had the grammar of my Latin graffiti corrected at swordpoint.

By palindrom (not verified) on 31 Dec 2015 #permalink

From what I understand, Vox Dei is, indeed, the inspiration for that dipshit's nom de plume. Sigh.

Orac writes (#59),

They’ve drawn the attention of William Shatner.

@Orac,

As the Science Officer of the U.S.S. Respectful Insolence, do you put your phaser on stun, or attempt a mind meld, when approached by an anti-vaxxer?

By Michael J. Dochniak (not verified) on 31 Dec 2015 #permalink

Johanna -- Thanks. And sorry for the double post -- I'd posted last night but it looked to have been lost.

There can be only one Voice of God, and that was, of course, Don La Fontaine.

Incidentally, Lake Bell's indie comedy "In a World" is pretty good.

By palindrom (not verified) on 31 Dec 2015 #permalink

A bit off topic but, I took my new kitten to the vet on Monday. She's finally reached 5 pounds, the minimum weight at which my vet will vaccinate for rabies. Unlike vaccines for children, rabies vaccines (at least in my municipality) are compulsory. Do the anti-vaxxers object to vaccinating their pets? Or, are they not special enough?

Narad #48, Sarah A #49; Does the idea of mosquitoes as flying syringes seem untenable to you?

In a daring experiment in Europe, scientists used mosquitoes as flying needles to deliver a "vaccine" of live malaria parasites through their bites.

http://www.usnews.com/science/articles/2009/07/30/flying-needles-mosqui…

... mosquitoes to become what the scientists call "flying vaccinators." ... The Japanese group decided to add an antigen-a compound that triggers an immune response-to the mix of proteins in the insect's saliva...

"The science is really beautiful," says Jesus Valenzuela of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases in Bethesda, Maryland, who developed the SP15 vaccine.

http://news.sciencemag.org/health/2010/03/researchers-turn-mosquitoes-f…

^^The articles do mention ethical qualms. However, those can be put aside so long as the syringes only affect mammals, birds, amphibians, and fish.

Patented, genetically modified mosquitoes flying about injecting Common Good. What could possibly go wrong??

A holocaust need not be intentional, NumberWang #55 -- Can it not be argued that vaccines will, if only very slowly, weed out those who do not tolerate them? We become monoculture without a comparison or fallback 'control'. At least, you correctly identify 'corporations' as our 'government'.

I grow evermore disillusioned that nobody has addressed my "completely aside from concerns of disease"; Would a compulsory vaccine to prevent drunk driving not fit in with your plans?

@ Gilbert
Vaccine Preventable Diseases do a far better job weeding out people.

Would a compulsory vaccine to prevent drunk driving not fit in with your plans?

That would be a great idea as a condition for obtaining a driver's licence. If you see a problem with that, then I'm afraid you don't have a clear concept of rights and responsiblities.

@Meg
"Do the anti-vaxxers object to vaccinating their pets?"
Yup. Idiots! It doesn't take much effort to find out about the horrors of parvo virus disease or distemper or rabies.

Rabies vaccine is one I like to point to as an example of a very successful vaccine where there is virtually no other possibility to explain reduction of disease. I'm not referring to injected vaccine, but to oral vaccine that is put into "bait" put out for wild and feral animals. It has been very successful in reducing rabies in several countries in animals like feral dogs (big issue in parts of Asia where infected dog bites are a big risk, particularly to children), raccoons and foxes.

Around here, Meg #72, it is compulsory to get yearly rabies vaccines. This, considering the low risk of rabies and the ever mounting risk of VAS, is retarded a bone of contention.

VAS has become a concern for veterinarians and cat owners alike and has resulted in changes in recommended vaccine protocols. These sarcomas have been most commonly associated with rabies and feline leukemia virus vaccines, ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine-associated_sarcoma

It's the adjuvants at the injection site doing what they're supposed to do -- causing inflammation; You see?

an example of a very successful vaccine ... is put into “bait” put out for wild and feral animals.

Ding, ding, ding; You win the cupie doll, doug #76. Of course, it does depend on one's definition of *successful*.

Here, there was a program dumping those vaccinating baits to fight rabies in raccoons. Deer loved them. Squirrel loved them. The next year we started hearing of *deer wasting disease* which is purported to be a type of prion; and CJD from eating squirrel a couple years later. -- How did this *prion* spread in a vegetarian population? How do southeastern squirrels become able to transmit CJD?

I note that the program was such a success that we still must innoculate pets annually yet the occasional Ole' Yeller still snarls at water.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_wasting_disease#Causative_agent

captkrunch@#63 -- how disappointing. I was hoping for something more apoplectic (or apocalyptic).

By shay simmons (not verified) on 31 Dec 2015 #permalink

If you see a problem with that, then I’m afraid you don’t have a clear concept of rights and responsiblities

And I'm afraid that you do not have a clear concept of un-molested free will -- Including the choice to not endanger, TBruce #75.

Vaccine Preventable Diseases do a far better job weeding out people.

And what about the unforseen, renate #74 -- Those who survived The Black Death have offspring with innate immune systems that have resisted all manner of novel disease; Including HIV.

Gilbert, are you saying Bubonic plague was good for mankind because it weeded out the weak ones, or are you suggesting some novel connection between forefathers from centuries past surviving/not catching Bubonic plague to improved resistance to HIV today?

Re Gilbert @81

What is this, I don't even...

Gilbert, I don't know where you are or when you are talking about but CWD has been quite widespread in parts of the US for a very long time.
There is a tradition of eating roasted caribou heads, including the brain, among the Dene people of northern Canada. I remember recommending to some I knew who was a teacher on a reserve (the Dene no longer being nomadic, but not by their choice) something around 15 to 20 years ago that it was probably unwise due the spread of CWD in cervids.
If you think deer or squirrels are exclusively vegetarian, you know nothing of wildlife.
Badly failed job of trying to link CWD to oral rabies vaccine.
You can cram your cupie (sic) doll.

I'm saying, gaist #82, that there needs to be choice lest all or none possibly leads to an genetic apocalypse.

Gilbert@80

And I’m afraid that you do not have a clear concept of un-molested free will — Including the choice to not endanger, TBruce #75.

And on the other hand the choice to endanger. Which is not a right anyone has. I'm afraid you don't have a clear concept of rights and responsibilities. "Unmolested free will"? That does not trump my right to safety.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 31 Dec 2015 #permalink

Well, let's see - up to a third of the world's population died of plague during the MIddle Ages. But the survivors passed on really strong innate immune systems to their progeny, so the plague was really a benefit!

Guess the subsequent millions (if not billions) of deaths from smallpox, cholera, malaria, influenza, tuberculosis etc. just go to show how bad things would've been without those super revved-up immune systems, huh?

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 31 Dec 2015 #permalink

The next year we started hearing of [...] CJD from eating squirrel a couple years later

That whole story of a CJD epidemic in Kentucky from eating squirrel brains was weird. The doctors reckoned in their published paper that they had seen only five patients with CJD. But then when they sent out the press release, somehow they had investigated 11 cases.
http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/29/us/kentucky-doctors-warn-against-a-re…

People pointed out that squirrels are too short-lived to be a vector for such slow-developing diseases, and no-one has ever replicated the report (despite the tests for prions now available), and it all sounds non-factual.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 31 Dec 2015 #permalink

“Unmolested free will”? That does not trump my right to safety.

Really? That's actually a pretty f*cked up thing to say, when you think about it, isn't it?

I mean, in the spiritual sense.

I should know.

Thanks.

-JP

It’s the adjuvants at the injection site doing what they’re supposed to do — causing inflammation; You see?

That's what Purevax is for, genius. Do try to keep up with the times.

Gilbert@46

Will it become forced to take a mind-altering vaccine against ‘addiction’, drug and alcohol ‘abuse’, preferring Android over IOS?

Do you understand how vaccines work?

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 31 Dec 2015 #permalink

Will it become forced to take a mind-altering vaccine against ‘addiction’

I've been clean 13 years as of February 6 and can honestly say, had a vaccine against addiction (no quotes) been available, I would have taken it without reservation.

Also, Android over IOS, every day of the week and twice on Sundays, dipshit.

And I’m afraid that you do not have a clear concept of un-molested free will — Including the choice to not endanger, TBruce #75.

Then you would support the right of a blind person to get a driver's licence, as long as they didn't drive?

And what about the unforseen, renate #74 — Those who survived The Black Death have offspring with innate immune systems that have resisted all manner of novel disease; Including HIV.

No doubt the indigenous people of North America are grateful to the European colonizers for introducing smallpox and measles to thin out the millions of weaklings in the population and strengthening their immune systems.

How did this *prion* spread in a vegetarian population?
Since the oldest-known form of prion disease affects sheep, it is safe to say that neither carnivory nor rabies vaccinations are required for its spread.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 31 Dec 2015 #permalink

No doubt the indigenous people of North America are grateful to the European colonizers for introducing smallpox and measles to thin out the millions of weaklings in the population and strengthening their immune systems.

No, not really, but it did give some of us a lot of nerve.

-JP

Good old Teddy Beale. never fails to amaze and astound with new and completely vapid mounds of blazing stupid, stunning all and sundry with his most impressive display of Dunning Kruger Effect.

Gilbert @77:

Around here, Meg #72, it is compulsory to get yearly rabies vaccines. This, considering the low risk of rabies... is a bone of contention.

Gee dude. Ya think that maybe the risk of rabies is so low is because of vaccination?
#80:

And I’m afraid that you do not have a clear concept of un-molested free will — Including the choice to not endanger.

Do you know what is proven to be far more dangerous than vaccines? The diseases they prevent. The sequelae from Measles Mumps and Rubella are literally thousands of times more likely and more damaging than from the MMR. Your comment is an argument FOR mandatory vaccination, not against it.
#85:

I’m saying, gaist #82, that there needs to be choice lest all or none possibly leads to an genetic apocalypse.

Um, what?
You are either an idiot or trolling.
When Europeans came to the Americas they brought diseases with them. Diseases which the indigenous populations were unable to resist. Within under a century, the Native American population had fallen by over 90%. THAT is a genetic apocalypse. And you're worried that mass vaccination programs just might halt diseases in a way that causes lasting harm to humanity? Are you smoking your socks?

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 31 Dec 2015 #permalink

It's weird that the health freedom/libertarians worry more about being forced (even though there IS no force, just a choice) to do something that they disagree with than worry about their health but, at the same time, are willing to restrict the movements of entire populations to 'protect' that same self.

By NumberWang (not verified) on 31 Dec 2015 #permalink

Gilbert, I think "And what about the unforseen, renate #74 — Those who survived The Black Death have offspring with innate immune systems that have resisted all manner of novel disease; Including HIV." would be a very clumsy and inane way of saying "that there needs to be choice lest all or none possibly leads to an genetic apocalypse", especially when originally replying to and quoting this:

Vaccine Preventable Diseases do a far better job weeding out people.

.

What has black death to do with vaccines or vaccine preventable diseases? What do you think it did to survivors' offsprings innate immune systems? Bubonic plague is still around, by the way, so any potential immunity-boosting changes it makes to future offspring could be easily tested - unless you were really thinking that it only kills the inferior individuals... Which I think you were, but are now back-pedaling because called out on it.

Happy Unix time shift from 1451606399 to 1451606400, regardless.

gaist@102

Happy Unix time shift from 1451606399 to 1451606400, regardless.

Only 695877247 left!

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 31 Dec 2015 #permalink

Meg @ #72
If the rejection by the ex Australian Vaccination Network president Meryl Dorey iof real veterinary medicine in favour of a homeopathic vet when her dog was bitten by a snake ( and yes, the poor thing died )s anything to go by, then yes, I'd guess they bypass vaccination for other diseases.
In her own words:
http://nocompulsoryvaccination.com/2010/10/18/a-word-of-warning-dogs-an…

By janerella (not verified) on 01 Jan 2016 #permalink

No doubt the indigenous people of North America are grateful to the European colonizers for introducing smallpox and measles...

... And perhaps just as grateful to the U.S. government for an annual quilting festival, TBruce #96.

^^ Now that is a precedent. I'd imagine that there were individuals who thought it ill-advised to accept The Man's inoculated gifts -- Weaves of Death, fully infused of an evil spirit. I'd imagine they were burdoned with hindsight, forsight, and foreboding as those who did not heed their admonishments began to shed their felonious, filthy fibers upon all others around.

@ Gilbert,
I suppose stopping with practising medicine alltogether, we will create a race of super-humans, because only the strongest will survive and they will be immune to any illness.

I’d imagine that there were individuals who thought it ill-advised to accept The Man’s inoculated gifts — Weaves of Death, fully infused of an evil spirit. I’d imagine they were burdoned with hindsight, forsight, and foreboding as those who did not heed their admonishments began to shed their felonious, filthy fibers upon all others around.

I remember my first tab of acid.

the rejection [...] of real veterinary medicine in favour of a homeopathic vet when her dog was bitten by a snake ( and yes, the poor thing died )

It wasn't thinking sufficiently positive thoughts, or it weakened itself with poor dietary and lifestyle choices, or something.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 01 Jan 2016 #permalink

Those who survived The Black Death have offspring with innate immune systems that have resisted all manner of novel disease; Including HIV

I believe Gilbert is referring to the CCR5 mutation that confers resistance to certain strains of HIV; unsurprisingly, he's gotten it rather scrambled.

CCR5 is a co-receptor for certain strains of the HIV virus; some individuals have a mutation that prevents CCR5 from being expressed on the cell surface, making them resistant to these strains. This mutation is present at higher-than-expected frequencies in European populations, suggesting that it was positively selected for. Scientists speculated that the selection pressure might be a disease that caused high mortality in European populations, and to which the CCR5 mutation also conferred resistance. There was some debate for awhile over which disease it was, with bubonic plague being the front runner, until a paper published in 2003 used mathematical modeling to show that the intermittent nature of plague outbreaks didn't provide the needed selection pressure, whereas the constant, long-term attrition caused by smallpox infection did. So now the widely accepted theory is that it is smallpox, rather than bubonic plague, that is responsible for the higher proportion of CCR5 mutation in European populations.

Even though Gilbert's ramblings contained a grain of truth, for the most part he's still wrong. For one thing, the CCR5 mutation doesn't confer resistance to "all manner of novel disease" - HIV (and, presumably, smallpox) is the only disease where CCR5 mutation is known to confer resistance. Secondly, the mutation makes carriers more susceptible to some other diseases, including tick-borne encephalitis and West Nile Virus (I'm not going to link to all the individual papers; just go to the Wikipedia entry on CCR5 and scroll down to "Potential Costs.")

In short, surviving bubonic plague (or smallpox) didn't make the survivors or their descendants super-immune übermenschen - they just happened to have a glitch in their immune systems which made them less susceptible to a virus that exploits that specific receptor. If humanity had sat on it's collective hands while people died for fear of "unforeseen consequences," today we'd still have smallpox killing approximately 1 in 3 children in endemic areas, and HIV would still be a death sentence for the overwhelming majority of people who contract it. Thanks to SBM, smallpox (as a disease) has been wiped from the face of the planet, and HIV is now a manageable chronic condition (if you can afford it, anyways - but that's a whole 'nother issue.)

@Meg
Sorry to say that some pet owners refuse to vaccinate. My neighbor, who won't get flu shots, similarly refuses to vaccinate her dog except for the rabies vaccine which the city requires before issuing the required dog license. I love the little guy and am terrified that he'll come down with parvo or distemper. Even asking her husband for permission to secretly take him to a clinic for his shots didn't help, and trying to discuss it rationally with her almost destroyed our friendship, so now I remain silent. If she figures out a way, she'd avoid the rabies vaccine, too.

Happy New Year everyone and thanks to our host for the blog and the commentators for valuable additions and good humor. Even the crazy ones add something, if only as a demonstration of confirmation bias and logical fallacies.

By cloudskimmer (not verified) on 01 Jan 2016 #permalink

@Delphine #108 - I imagine Gilbert is obliquely referring to the first recorded act of biological warfare on American soil - the distribution of blankets from a smallpox hospital to Native Americans for the express purpose of infecting them with smallpox. Gilbert appears to be of the "communicating badly and then acting smug when you're misunderstood" school of rhetoric.

I do love the phrase "Weaves of Death," though - that's make a good title for a book.

^ that'd make a good title for a book

I do love the phrase “Weaves of Death,” though

Thou shalt not mix fibres of wool and linen for that is ABOMINATION.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 01 Jan 2016 #permalink

That whole story of a CJD epidemic in Kentucky from eating squirrel brains was weird.

Weird, herr doktor bimler #88? I'll say 'yep'. But what better way to demoralize all the survivalists who would depend on scrambled eggs and squirrel brains after they bugged out to the woods and hills of eastern Ky; After TSHTF?

I would suggest it could have been a test of a biological weapon -- could *prions* not be distributed and concentrated through such baits?

Prions. How do they work?? Oh, yea -- Like the potential *Ice-9* scenario with the LHC producing negative strangelets inside our atmosphere where they could contact matter; A little dab will do ya--

This is not a concern for strangelets in cosmic rays because they are produced far from Earth and have had time to decay to their ground state, which is predicted by most models to be positively charged, so they are electrostatically repelled by nuclei, and would rarely merge with them. But high-energy collisions could produce negatively charged strangelet states which live long enough to interact with the nuclei of ordinary matter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strangelet#Dangers

Let me pretend to 'backpeddle' just abit, gaist #102. I meant to suggest that there should be a reservoir of those who haven't been manipulated through *the vaccine scedule* because there may be an unique, innate factor for fighting some unforseen disease in the future. 94-96% vaccinated should leave ya'll with plenty of pharma shill lucre -- Should there not be a reserve of those who are *un-homoginized*??

@Gilbert #77

Around here, Meg #72, it is compulsory to get yearly rabies vaccines. This, considering the low risk of rabies and the ever mounting risk of VAS

I'm well aware of vaccine site sarcoma. It's precisely why veterinarians have changed vaccine protocols. Rabies shots are given in the hind leg instead of between the shoulder blades. Given the choice between having to have my beloved pet destroyed should she happen to bite someone and the small risk of a leg amputation should she develop a tumor, I'll go with the vaccine.

To the best of my knowledge, only one person is recorded as having survived rabies in the U.S. Again, stopping a disease that is 100% fatal is worth the risk of a cancer that, while aggressive, may be survivable with treatment.

And yes, I've been bitten by a cat and ended up in the hospital as a result. Fortunately for both me and the cat, there was current vaccine documentation.

Alia:Vox Day. When I first encountered that name, it was not in connection with his anti-vax rhetoric but with his attempt to manipulate the Hugo awards: http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2015/04/08/_2015_hugo_awards_how_th…
A true crank magnet, he is.

If that campaign did nothing else it allowed me to put a lot of authors on the do not read list. Day was already on that list, as his blog posts are uniformly horrible and littered with errors. Does anyone know if he graduated from an actual college or high school, rather than some fly-by night Christian outfit? Because I'm pretty sure he isn't actually college educated.
Slightly off topic- would anyone be interested in a torpedoing campaign against the Hugos? The fact that they could be gamed like that, regardless if the attempt succeeds, suggests that the Hugos should not exist anymore.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 01 Jan 2016 #permalink

But what better way to demoralize all the survivalists who would depend on scrambled eggs and squirrel brains after they bugged out to the woods and hills of eastern Ky; After TSHTF?

I have a devious mind and I can think of better ways but the Men in Black have sworn me to secrecy. Doesn't sound like the skwirl brains were part of survivalist diet, but rather a gourmet item and a statement of regional identity.

Any speculation that the skwirl-brain-prion danger was talked up as a conpiratorial COINTERPRO campaign runs into the complication that one of the people promoting it (see e.g. the 1997 NYTimes story) was Dr. Frank Bastian. And Bastian is the author -- and perhaps the only supporter -- of the dissident theory that "prion diseases" and Alzheimers are actually a Spiroplasma infection.* So, is he to be believed or not? Part of the conspiracy, or a whistleblower?

* There is one pseudonymmed Wiki contributor who set up a Whackyweedia page for Bastian, and has shoehorned references to his Spiroplasma theory into every germane page.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 01 Jan 2016 #permalink

Sadmar:" We can’t confidently say all, or even most parents who have enough doubts about vax safety to avoid taking their kids in for their shots believe they have superior parenting skills that will keep their kids disease-free."

Actually, we can say that. We read their blog posts where they say EXACTLY that.

And I find it odd that the matter of ‘fear’ is absent from this discussion. It makes sense that fear of autism would have some correlation with higher SES, if only in that lower-income, non-Whites have a lot more sh!t to worry about. But while a certain level of privilege may be a necessary precondition of non-vaxing-level fear of autism, it’s hardly therefore causative in any way.

I don't think it's fear of autism, exactly. It's more the fear of raising a non-competitive kid. Parenting is basically a social sport these days- the metric isn''t 'raising someone to adulthood' it's 'did the kid get into the Ivy League?'

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 01 Jan 2016 #permalink

To the best of my knowledge, only one person is recorded as having survived rabies in the U.S.

The Google informs me that four other cases have subsequently survived, though the odds are still unfavourable:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_protocol

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 01 Jan 2016 #permalink

@hdb, yeah.
Graeme Anderson was a healthy young canoeist who competed in the Dusi River Canoe Marathon. He found a stray dog on his parents' farm. The dog was rabid, and licked him. By the time he showed symptoms, it was too late. Despite undergoing the Milwaukee Protocol, he died.
My understanding is that the Protocol is a "Hail Mary", a last desperate attempt to save the patient's life.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 01 Jan 2016 #permalink

Like the potential fantasy *Ice-9* scenario with the LHC

FTFY.

Does anyone know if [Beale] graduated from an actual college or high school, rather than some fly-by night Christian outfit?

Bucknell College appears to be a perfectly cromulent private university, although they got caught a few years ago fraudulently falsifying their SAT results.
Perhaps one should instead blame Beale's felonious father for bringing him up in the ways of Christianism and crime, and setting him on the path of unrighteousness.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 01 Jan 2016 #permalink

Possibly, Sarah A. Then again, he may simply require a dose of my friend Vitamin H.

The chicken pox vaccine works!

Younger kid was exposed in December, and today is Day 21. No pox.

To those of you who are anti-vax, or selectively anti-chicken pox vax:
would you want your child to spend Christmas (if you celebrate it) and the entire winter break fevered and itchy? Would you really want to spend your holidays nursing a miserably sick child?

Because that’s exactly what your wishes would have meant for my younger kid.

In pre-vaccine days, the older kid would likely be getting it just in time for the return to school in January. And spread it through those classrooms--they're not in the same school. Older kid is in middle school, when prolonged absence can have a long term negative impact on learning and grades.

Thank you, modern medicine and vaccine developers, for transforming what used to be inevitable misery into something that didn’t happen.

HDB: Really? Huh, I was expecting something like Bob Jones. I'm still pretty sure he's lying about the MENSA thing. That or he had a friend who gave him the 'easy version.' The again, he'd fit right in, as from what I've heard MENSA is pretty much the John Birch Society in nice suits.

Chemmomo: Congratulations. And ugh. I'm pretty sure being sick on Christmas would spoil it for the rest of one's life. Luckily both kids avoided it- that stress you don't need. Especially if you have to travel.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 01 Jan 2016 #permalink

@Delphine - Is "Vitamin H" a euphemism for something? I tried googling it but all that comes up is info about biotin - apparently its good for your nails but I don't see anything about it being a cure for delusional ramblings ;)

@Sara A (#127)
It's a nickname for Haldol, which is used to treat psychosis and certain kinds of delusions.

Gilbert asks "How did this *prion* spread in a vegetarian population? How do southeastern squirrels become able to transmit CJD??"
Squirrels, like all rodents, will eat meat when it's available. Anyone who's ever baited traps for possum, porcupine, squirrel, or muskrat will tell you that bacon is the best bait, although pork of any kind works pretty well (all even better when mixed with peanut butter). As to deer, try this link: http://www.outdoorhub.com/stories/2013/09/09/the-meat-eating-habits-of-…
By the way, what's with the scare quotes around prion? Don't you believe in them either?

By Old Rockin' Dave (not verified) on 01 Jan 2016 #permalink

PGP re 126
Thanks. I feel the need to declare victory because I’ve spent too much time hearing about how in every outbreak, there are vaccinated individuals who got sick too. I’ve always maintained that’s asking the wrong question, and now I have anecdata that answers the right question. Vaccinated. Confirmed exposed. Not sick = Vaccine works.

That needs to be repeated.

Chemmomo: I sympathize, as I have a violent dislike of that particular whine. (Of course, no anti-vaxxer would admit that their previous whining resulted in sabotaging the pertussis vaccine, or that kids and people with cancer exist. Or that immune systems exist for that matter.)

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 01 Jan 2016 #permalink

@Chemmomo: Huzzah for no chicken pox! It's this time of year when I remember back to the horrible few weeks that my children suffered. Younger child had a fairly light case, but elder child was COVERED, including mouth and other internal mucus membranes. The poor thing couldn't sit, couldn't lie down, didn't want to be touched. I had to give her tylenol with codeine just so she'd get some rest (no, oatmeal baths and calomine lotion didn't do bupkis). 3 days of misery for her. And that's not counting the high fevers, muscle pain (from the chills) and not wanting to eat or drink because it hurt so much, so we had to force her to drink. Yeah, parents just LOVE to inflict that sort of pain on their children.

To top it off, it was HORRIBLY cold, and we were having the siding and windows in the house replaced. The poor workmen could rotate from working outside and inside (to warm up) - except 1 guy, who had never had chicken pox and had to work outside the entire day. I made sure he got plenty of hot fluids.

So BAH HUMBUG to the jerks who say "chicken pox is a mild disease".

Let me also add....the vaccine was approved for general use the next year. I was SO darn mad it hadn't been available as part of the schedule before that time!

It's true I'm rich white and college educated and understand nutrition is far more potent than you medically trained robots will ever understand..... and I'm not fearful of measles, rubella or whooping cough. I'm terrified of chronic health problems plaguing my child the rest of his life. Im not interested in medical interventions that tweak and trick my babies immune system. His immune system will be nutritionally supported to tolerate measles and we will be just fine thank you. This is the new approach to wellness not chemical cocktails. Surely you can understand this perspective. If not seek to understand it. Ask yourself why are these people so confident to leave your pro vaccination paradigm? what is it that they would risk their offsprings well being? We Understand something that you don't . Nobody is going to win an argumant here. It's called health freedom you go your direction we will go ours. Plain and simple. You bow down to pharmaceutical mysticism we bow down to the human bodies incredible innate immune system. Perfected when optimized. And take your herd immunity myth and GFY!

THEO: "... and I’m not fearful of measles, rubella or whooping cough..."

Only because you are a stupid supplement shill.

Plus, THEO The Thick, your supplements are chemical cocktails! Only a cruel sadistic idiotic parent would allow their child to get sick instead of prevent it with a vaccine (which is much safer than the disease).

Ask yourself why are these people so confident to leave your pro vaccination paradigm? what is it that they would risk their offsprings well being?

Ignorance, motivated reasoning and magical thinking.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 02 Jan 2016 #permalink

It’s true I’m rich white and college educated and understand nutrition is far more potent than you medically trained robots will ever understand….. and I’m not fearful of measles, rubella or whooping cough. I’m terrified of chronic health problems plaguing my child the rest of his life. Im not interested in medical interventions that tweak and trick my babies immune system. His immune system will be nutritionally supported to tolerate measles and we will be just fine thank you. This is the new approach to wellness not chemical cocktails. Surely you can understand this perspective. If not seek to understand it. Ask yourself why are these people so confident to leave your pro vaccination paradigm? what is it that they would risk their offsprings well being? We Understand something that you don’t . Nobody is going to win an argumant here. It’s called health freedom you go your direction we will go ours. Plain and simple. You bow down to pharmaceutical mysticism we bow down to the human bodies incredible innate immune system. Perfected when optimized. And take your herd immunity myth and GFY!

Parklife!

Thx, Old Rockin' Dave #129. I did not know that. I figured they only slurp up placenta like cows and horses after the occasional live birth.

The article does note:

Biologists say that this behavior is uncommon and rarely is deer depredation documented...

“Some of these animals really are omnivorous,” U.S. Geological Survey biologist Pam Pietz reported all the way back in 1998.

Which sound to me as if it is either very rare or very new. Maybe these are true 'zombie deer' that ought not to be eaten -- Or perhaps they were just baited with alpha-pvp or bath-salts licks.

'Licking'. <--That could spread it, I guess. But the vid of the deer 'eating the squirrel' looked more like he was trying to rouse a fallen friend. And diving into gut piles in search of predigested apples? {aaand, now an old advertising jingle is stuck in my head "...they gobble it down and the yack comes back it's Hungry Jack}
===============

My bad about the 'scare quotes'. I do believe and I think it is scary. A lifeless zombie protein husk of an entity that makes copies of itself by converting others to more zombie proteins just by touching them and that adhear to surgeons' utensils and are damn hard to kill, even with fire; Even formaldehyde 'stabilizes' them for all time -- What is not to be scared of? Who knows where these things are hiding or how many are already infected?

Genencor International, Inc. (Nasdaq: GCOR) and the United Kingdom’s Health Protection Agency, Business Division (HPA) announced today the partners have developed an enzyme-based method that effectively eliminates prions.

http://biosciences.dupont.com/media/news-archive/news/2004/genencor-and…

Porton Down. DuPont. How convenient.

You bow down to pharmaceutical mysticism we bow down to the human bodies incredible innate immune system

What is it with these yahoos' obsession with the innate immune system? Do they distrust the adaptive immune system because it evolved later and is thus less "natural?" Is it because they think adaptive immunity is something that is only generated in response to vaccination and not to "natural" infection? Or did they simply encounter the phrase "innate immune system" on the internet and assume that the word "innate" was being used in the general sense of "intrinsic" or "inherent?"

Also, one would think that someone who claims to be rich and college-educated could afford to buy some commas and learn how to use them.

Dr. Frank Bastian. And Bastian is the author — and perhaps the only supporter — of the dissident theory that “prion diseases” and Alzheimers are actually a Spiroplasma infection.

I'd buy that, herr doktor bimler #118; So long as those Spiroplasmids(sp?) pooped out prions.

Sarah A:

The way I've come to explain the phenomenon is that these are people for whom it's very important to them to believe that they are smarter than doctors.

Sometimes they might be, but usually not.

By Brian Deer (not verified) on 02 Jan 2016 #permalink

The Google informs me that four other cases have subsequently survived, though the odds are still unfavourable:

Thank you, Sir Doctor. I knew as soon as I hit post, I should have been more careful in my research. Glad it was more embarrassing.

... Glad is was NOT more embarrassing!

That typo was embarrassing enough.

Maybe these are true ‘zombie deer’ that ought not to be eaten

Or maybe you should ask yourself how much soil cervids tend to consume.

Hey, Theo Beale, your writing professors called: they want you to learn what apostrophes are. No wonder you can't win a Hugo. And tell all your sad little friends that the Hugos are going DOWN this year. (Also, for god's sake learn to science. Finally, nutrition is not the sole interest of the nuts.)

Gilly boy: Dude, that's not how biology works. Spiroplasmids are not even a thing. Plasmids are a sort of wormlike life form, spirochetes are bacteria. Also, you do know deer will eat live birds from nets, yes?

ORD: Do they do a gender breakdown of the deer participating in predation? I have a pet theory about that.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 02 Jan 2016 #permalink

i must admit to not reading the entirety of the article, but, unfortunately, when i read either side of the argument, neither side seems entirely credible. i agree the anti-vaccine crowd seems dismissive of history and epidemics. but the pro-vaccine crowd seems to have no respect for individual rights or a healthy vigilance against government tyranny. i think the individual ought to be able to opt out of vaccination. forcing vaccination upon someone is, ostensibly, sinister. i think that's self-evident.

By craig CASTANET (not verified) on 02 Jan 2016 #permalink

Oh, THEO how far you have fallen on this subject.

I don't care what you do with your body but to claim that human's innate immune system will save individuals from VPDs flies in the face of the history of mankind. Unless of course you're interested in culling the herd; then I think going unvaccinated would be very helpful.

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 02 Jan 2016 #permalink

Or maybe you should ask yourself how much soil cervids tend to consume.

Deep. Or consider the Dead Milkmen at their word of what a certain demographic is doing to the soil?

PgP, not even. "not even a thing"?? You wouldn't even bother to humiliate yourself with that reply if you were aware that there are some who call me "Tim, Tlm..."

Unless of course you’re interested in culling the herd

Just like some royalty, Not a Troll #147?

I just wonder what it would be like to be reincarnated in an animal whose species had been so reduced in numbers than it was in danger of extinction. What would be its feelings toward the human species whose population explosion had denied it somewhere to exist... I must confess that I am tempted to ask for reincarnation as a particularly deadly virus.

-- Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, forward to If I Were an Animal, 1987

@PGP - Plasmids aren't a worm-like life form, they are small, circular DNA molecules that bacteria swap like trading cards. They generally encode some sort of trait that's beneficial to the bacteria, like antibiotic resistance.

Spiroplasma is a genus of bacteria - I imagine Gilbert was trying to construct a plural form by analogy to some other Greek names like kinetoplastids, which are members of the class kinetoplastida. Wikipedia just calls them "spiroplasmas," so that's good enough for me :)

Also, Narad @145 beat me to it: we already know that anthrax is spread when an animal grazes on land where an infected animal has died and decomposed, leaving spores in the soil. Prions are similarly environmentally resistant, so it makes sense that they could spread the same way.

Or consider the Dead Milkmen at their word of what a certain demographic is doing to the soil?

Is there a reason why we shouldn't EVER take the Dead Milkmen at their word?

“Some of these animals really are omnivorous,” U.S. Geological Survey biologist Pam Pietz reported all the way back in 1998.
Which sound to me as if it is either very rare or very new. Maybe these are true ‘zombie deer’ that ought not to be eaten — Or perhaps they were just baited with alpha-pvp or bath-salts licks.

Ha! Pam Pietz was not keeping up with the literature. Let me refer you to Furness 1988:

On Rhum, Inner Hebrides, red deer were watched biting the heads off manx shearwater chicks and occasionally also chewing the shearwaters' legs and wings to excise bone. Killing of birds and the selective ingestion of bone-rich parts by ruminants has not previously been widely documented

Or Basely 1989.

There's a report from 1905 (published in the Spectator) of the importance of lemmings in the reindeer diet,* so this is not new behaviour.

Deer in particular need calcium to grow their attire, so they nom on bones, and they are not always particular as to whether the previous owner of the bones has finished using them. But other herbivores are not averse to junk food.
ht_tp://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/2010/12/20/carnivory-in-cows-and-deer/

* Rule #1 of Arctic Ecology -- Everything Eats Lemmings.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 02 Jan 2016 #permalink

i must admit to not reading the entirety of the article, but, unfortunately, when i read either side of the argument, neither side seems entirely credible. i agree the anti-vaccine crowd seems dismissive of history and epidemics. but the pro-vaccine crowd seems to have no respect for individual rights or a healthy vigilance against government tyranny. i think the individual ought to be able to opt out of vaccination. forcing vaccination upon someone is, ostensibly, sinister. i think that’s self-evident.

There's a straw man
Waiting in the sky
He'd like to come and meet us
But he thinks he'd blow our minds

we already know that anthrax is spread when an animal grazes on land where an infected animal has died and decomposed, leaving spores in the soil. Prions are similarly environmentally resistant, so it makes sense that they could spread the same way.

Scrapie spreads in sheep in exactly that way, and there are descriptions of scrapie from the 18th century, so I'm pretty sure that it wasn't invented as a bioweapon.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 02 Jan 2016 #permalink

I have a video of an urban squirrel chewing on a chicken bone somewhere. It startled me enough to film it, but a little subsequent investigation revealed it isn't unusual.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 02 Jan 2016 #permalink

Sarah A: Thank you, I didn't know that. It's hard to know whether cranks are misinterpreting facts or just making stuff up. I still don't think there's a plausible way for bacteria to produce prions.

Gil/Tim: Ooh boy. I thought you sounded familiarly incoherent and high. Aching for another banning are we?

HDB: Well, they are everywhere and they breed fast. Perhaps they're tasty as well.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 02 Jan 2016 #permalink

Krebiiiiozen!

Long time no SEE, for some reason!

;)

*giggling in the back seat, like a fox*

craig CASTANET: "...but the pro-vaccine crowd seems to have no respect for individual rights..."

So an individual should have the right to spread infectious diseases to vulnerable people.

"... or a healthy vigilance against government tyranny."

So are traffic rules and not being allowed to toss your trash and/or sewage in your neighbors' yards also forms of government tyranny? Were you the obnoxious driver who had a red light in the left hand turn lane, but decided to ignore it and almost took off my front bumper by swing to the right in front of me as my lane light turned green?

"i think the individual ought to be able to opt out of vaccination. forcing vaccination upon someone is, ostensibly, sinister. i think that’s self-evident."

Do tell us other than for attendance to school, military service and for some medical fields where vaccines are "forced" on you. Since you are feeling forced to get vaccines, I can assume that you are still in elementary school. Perhaps you should ask your parents to either homeschool you, or start your own "Special Snowflake School for Haters of Public Health."

Many rodents will gnaw on bones and many that are nominally herbivores will eat invertebrates and occasionally other small vertebrates. What we call "gophers" around here (Richardson's ground squirrels, Urocitellus richardsonii), are notorious cannibals who will dine on their road-killed brethern. Many years ago I had a pet white-footed mouse. One day I held it up to a moth that was sitting on the wall, not expecting anything particular to happen. The mouse immediate grabbed it and had eaten most of it before the wings hit the floor. (same mouse bit my dad one time - closed its eyes, laid its ears back and chomped down with no intention of letting go) My brother told me of a red squirrel that had laid claim to a flower box. One day a grey jay (called a "whiskey jack" in these parts) landed on the flower box and was promptly decapitated by the squirrel.

I remember seeing something about the Furness 1988 work just after it was published.

THEO (#134)

You bow down to pharmaceutical mysticism we bow down to the human bodies incredible innate immune system.

I don’t know what’s so "incredible" about an immune system whose only tactic is to start laying waste to everything in the body and hope it kills the invader before it kills the body itself. But then, you’re no doubt the sort of moron who thinks the best kind of home defense is to buy a gun and shoot at everything you think is an invader, even if it turns out to be your own kid.

The evidence that anti-vaccine parents are richer etc. might simply be evidence that they are neighbors of rich people.

By Joseph Hertzlinger (not verified) on 02 Jan 2016 #permalink

@ Delphine:

re Park life, vitamin H, straw man waiting in the sky
Ha ha ha.

-What Brian Deer said-
True. I think that those who aren't given validation concerning their intellectual ability especially need to believe that they're smarter than doctors.

@ Krebiozen:

I often throw chicken bones in the garden behind my building
for the cats but have seen small birds feasting on them. Not sure about the squirrels and other mammals.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 02 Jan 2016 #permalink

@politicalguineapig #117,

Slightly off topic- would anyone be interested in a torpedoing campaign against the Hugos?

My understanding is that that's exactly what Beale intends to do, that is, as I understand it, he said that if the Hugo regulars No-Awarded categories to ensure that awards did not go to those works nominated by his fans*, then he would encourage his fans to ensure that every category will be no No-Awarded from now on.  The Hugo regulars started a campaign to No-Award; they No-Awarded five categories; and I presume that he will now carry out his threat.   

* who bought memberships just like everyone else and did everything in strict accordance with the rules. 

This is probably a good place to speculate and develop hypotheses. I am struck that these are wealthy people who live in neighborhoods of high educational attainment, yet they did not achieve the same degree. Could there be an effect of educational disparity much like income disparity, which we believe causes poor health at all income levels?

Any thoughts?

By Dino W Ramzi, … (not verified) on 03 Jan 2016 #permalink

@ Dino W Ramzi, MD, MPH:

Just speculating
but I think the educational disparity doesn't equate to AMOUNT of education but TYPE of education - life science based/ mathematics etc or not-
then multiplied by particular personality factors.
I can't imagine it's JUST education alone.

I can't believe that many MBAs think like Mark Blaxill.
And people like Luc Montagnier have gone woo despite their education.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 03 Jan 2016 #permalink

And on the other hand the choice to endanger. Which is not a right anyone has.

Yes, capnkrunch #86. But we must have the right to choose. It is then a responsibility to not endanger; There are all kinds of societal pressures to nudge one in the right direction.

Do you understand how vaccines work?

I think they have the potential to target individual neurotransmitters or regions of the brain --

In response to my question "Would a compulsory vaccine to prevent drunk driving not fit in with your plans?", TBruce #75 answers "That would be a great idea as a condition for obtaining a driver’s licence."

^^ In the context of my question, that is not 'responsibility' but rather 'inability' to do the thing deemed improper. I may as well have asked if it should become mandatory to punch out lobotomies in everyone to prevent unacceptable X.

I lament that driving has been subjugated from the Magna Carta *right* to travel to the State-authorized *priviledge* to do so. In my estimation, most are naturally inclined to not go out on a road trip killing spree - I would prefere signing a waiver that I won't sue the state if my crap gets banged up on their road over the token getting in line at the courthouse where jumping through saftey pomp doesn't leave me feeling safe at all.

Were you the obnoxious driver who had a red light in the left hand turn lane, ... and almost took off my front bumper by swing to the right in front of me as my lane light turned green?

It is fortunate that you were able to qualify that with almost, Chris #160. For you exercised responsibility in verifying the intersection clear before proceeding instead of blindly relying on a mechanical device -- Did you know, had you not done that, you could have born partial fault for not acting to avoid a collision?

But consider the semi or fully autonomous car and its response to an impending collision with a bus full of kids. Will your little 3-wheel bubble-car swerve off a cliff even though you know that school is not in session and can plainly see the bus devoid of children? You would be denied input to save your life at the detriment of no other.
===========
I suspect that A. Noyd #162 is considering a cytokine storm when he says

I don’t know what’s so “incredible” about an immune system whose only tactic is to start laying waste to everything in the body and hope it kills the invader before it kills the body itself. But then, you’re no doubt the sort of moron who thinks the best kind of home defense is to buy a gun and shoot at everything you think is an invader

You have the responsibility to possibly shoot the invader only; Discrimination is an ability. Are you not technically *fighting disease* when mounting an immune response even to the vaccine components? Some suspect this can weaken the overall immune system for the nonspecific. If this causes a somewhat *granulated* immune system to the detriment of a more general continuum one then I'd equate that to trying to use a cheap ratchet with too few 'clicks' in a tight space -- some positional options (or aiming) just aren't there.
======================

Could there be an effect of educational disparity much like income disparity, which we believe causes poor health at all income levels?

I have no direct opinion on that, Dino W Ramzi, MD, MPH #167. But, as education is compulsory, I do suspect that the less affluent without the ability to homeschool will be gravitated toward the cheeper adjuvanted vaccines over the good ones. Nor will they be able to afford Purevax for their new kitten.

LW: I wasn't clear about my intentions, so my bad. I want to shut down the Hugos completely. If people can game them like they did last year, regardless if the attempt succeeded or failed, then the awards ceremony serves no purpose at all.

DW: You haven't met many MBAs, have you? Almost all of them are empty suits with inflated egos.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 03 Jan 2016 #permalink

Some suspect this can weaken the overall immune system for the nonspecific.

You improve your aim but impoverish yourself of ammunition taking pot-shots at shadows.

@ PGP:

They may be empty suits** with inflated egos but most can understand odds, risks and multiplication tables.

The folks I read can't seem to grok numbers.

** although reasonably well constructed ones with matching, up-to-date accoutrements.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 03 Jan 2016 #permalink

Jesus wept, PGP. Do you honestly believe that, or are you simply going for provocateur?

MBAs definitely understand numbers. They have to, to massage them into something that makes them look good or to survive when their initiatives don't go as well as hyped. But the problem is that if they think scientists do the same, they would tend to be distrustful of them.

If the scientific process becomes like business I won't trust scientists either. I'm not trying to provoke. I'm just someone disillusioned with the way the world runs.

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 03 Jan 2016 #permalink

I, for one, would be sad if the Hugos were eliminated due to the gaming of the system by a puppy faction or a kitty faction or an aardvark faction or some other faction. That said, I am shocked - shocked - that there are politics in science fiction fandom and at Worldcons!

If the Hugo becomes irrelevant it will be because the Worldcon becomes irrelevant. This in turn will be due to the lack of support from fans.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 03 Jan 2016 #permalink

I've chewed over the Hugo thing at length elsewhere (Making Light and File 770, mostly), and (A) It was only no award in certain categories; (B) there's a proposal that should fix a lot of this, if it passes at the 2016 business meeting; and (C) No Award is a legitimate option, or it wouldn't be there in the first place. (There are people who vote No Award in certain categories every year because they don't think the categories are valid.)

Do you understand how vaccines work?

I think they have the potential to target individual neurotransmitters or regions of the brain

Huh?

the Magna Carta *right* to travel

Perhaps you are thinking of Clause 33 in the Charter, which bans the construction of fish-weirs, with the intention of keeping the rivers navigable.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 03 Jan 2016 #permalink

Dino Ramzi @167 --

neighborhoods of high educational attainment, yet they did not achieve the same degree.

One of the nice things about having a PhD is when you have a form that asks "highest degree attained", you can simply answer "Yes."

By palindrom (not verified) on 03 Jan 2016 #permalink

@Politicalguineapig, I think my meaning wasn't clear either. I think it doesn't matter what you or I think about the Hugo Awards because I think Beale means to wreck them. Like you, I think there are serious problems with these awards, which were designed when the SF/F community was very small and the number of eligible works in any given year was relatively low, so it was not unreasonable to expect that voters would have read most of what was eligible. None of that is true now and it makes a difference.

@Vicki, as I said, they No-Awarded five categories. But I believe Beale intends No-Award across the board.

So basically, Gilbert believes that the government has no responsibility to protect anyone because people will behave responsibly on their own volition. That seems realistic.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 03 Jan 2016 #permalink

You improve your aim but impoverish yourself of ammunition taking pot-shots at shadows.

I.e., you really, really don't have the foggiest notion of how this "immune system" thingamabob works.

So basically, Gilbert believes that the government has no responsibility to protect anyone because people will behave responsibly on their own volition. That seems realistic.

That's always been my problem with libertarianism. It assumes that people act logically. People don't even always act in their own best interest.

You haven’t met many MBAs, have you? Almost all of them are empty suits with inflated egos.

Go piss up a rope.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 03 Jan 2016 #permalink

DW: They may be empty suits** with inflated egos but most can understand odds, risks and multiplication tables.
The folks I read can’t seem to grok numbers.

Most MBAs appear to be aspiring to the real-life role of Doctor Evil or a Bond supervillian. It wouldn't surprise me if Blaxill actually did understand the numbers, but thinks no one will mind if he massages them.

LW: Like you, I think there are serious problems with these awards, which were designed when the SF/F community was very small and the number of eligible works in any given year was relatively low, so it was not unreasonable to expect that voters would have read most of what was eligible. None of that is true now and it makes a difference.

I think the point is to make the community smaller. They think the S/F community ought to be male and white. Therefore, if the community wants any sort of diversity (debatable) or readable authors, the Hugos need to go. Otherwise, it'll be back to 12-30 year-old males and the same amount of diversity you'd find at the local Klan or Trump rally.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 03 Jan 2016 #permalink

PGP:

[I]f the [science fiction] community wants any sort of diversity (debatable)

Stop. Just stop.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 03 Jan 2016 #permalink

"I think the point is to make the community smaller."

Don't confuse the Hugo voting community with fandom in general. The Hugo voting community is a very tiny fraction of fandom. Seriously - I've read that there are numerous cons that are ten times or more as large as WotldCon. And many fans -- like me -- pay no attention to the Hugo Awards, Nebula Awards, or any other awards. In a sense, in my opinion, the whole Hugo flap is a tempest in a teapot since neither side can actually "make the community smaller" or, thanks to the Internet and independent publishing, keep any author out.

The whole thing was very nasty and disappointing to someone like me who has been a fan on the fringes of fandom for a very long time, but it won't prevent books from being published or read.

On the other hand, I will say that the Hugo flap was quite clarifying. A small number of authors went on my "Not One Thin Dime" list and a much larger number went on my "Check Them Out" list: those who may get my dollars in the future, or got some last year, because I heard of them through this controversy.

LW: "Don’t confuse the Hugo voting community with fandom in general. The Hugo voting community is a very tiny fraction of fandom."

Yes, but they're all big-name fans, indicative of the larger community- basically, living barometers.

LW: "On the other hand, I will say that the Hugo flap was quite clarifying. A small number of authors went on my “Not One Thin Dime” list and a much larger number went on my “Check Them Out” list: those who may get my dollars in the future, or got some last year, because I heard of them through this controversy."

I agree that that was the one useful takeaway. I already avoided Ringo, (mega-creep of the Cosby order) though I was disappointed (though unsurprised) that the guy who wrote Snowpiercer was a libertarian of the most disgusting sort. (Not that there is any other kind; most libertarians think ethics are optional.) The movie sounds good, but I won't give him the satisfaction. I was kinda disappointed in Moorcock, but I really shouldn't have been surprised. Mieville was one of the surprises as was Eric Flint. ( I seriously did not know that Mieville was basically a communist with a degree in economics. Oxford must be furious.)
I was kinda surprised that the author of the Martian declined to participate, but I'm glad he didn't.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 04 Jan 2016 #permalink

That is, that he didn't participate in the whole flap. Would have been sad to miss out on that book. And I just saw the movie, which was awesome. Ridley Scott outdid himself.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 04 Jan 2016 #permalink

Meg: That’s always been my problem with libertarianism. It assumes that people act logically. People don’t even always act in their own best interest.

See above- my big problem with libertarians is that they think ethics are unnecessary, and a whole lot of them are against age-of-consent laws, integration, and the idea that rape is a bad thing, and abandoning your kids is not good.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 04 Jan 2016 #permalink

Most MBAs appear to be aspiring to the real-life role of Doctor Evil or a Bond supervillian

How many MBAs do you work with? Because in my career (private sector CPGs then international development NGO) I've worked closely with dozens. I now work with a lot of academics, really smart people, highly specialized folk with great ideas. And guess what, we don't get a whole lot actually done without the suits helping us to make our plans concrete. Nobody likes to admit that about MBAs, way easier (and lazier) to stereotype them as Machiavellian Overlord-wannabes. Along with arrogant surgeons, whiny teachers, ignorant cops...

@PGP

The ethics issue is separate (though, to me equally important). If the premise, that people act logically, held, then one could have an argument about the ethics. But, as the underlying premise is just plain wrong, I'm not going to bother arguing the rest with most of them.

PGP, want to know what's painful but necessary to hear in my line of work, whether it's developing WASH in Rwanda or MNCH in Afghanistan?

"There is no business case for moving your proposal forward at this time."

Want to know my qualifications for making that assessment? ZERO.

way easier (and lazier) to stereotype

I was going to call those six words PGP's modus operandi.

After second thoughts, however, I'm not sure raison d'etre isn't more appropriate.

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 04 Jan 2016 #permalink

@Politicalguineapig, I had not come across Snowpiercer before (I seldom watch movies) but if you like graphic novels, I think you might enjoy Digger by Ursula Vernon. I first encountered it online and bought the book to support the artist. It won a Hugo in 2012.

Well the CDC Whistleblower documents are available courtesy of Matt Carey.

What a complete and utter disappointment they are. Not 100,000 pages as promised and most of the pages that are there come from Brian Hooker and Andrew Wakefield.

There are some very interesting internal CDC management issues that seem to have precipitated Thompson down the path he chose. Strangely he didn't act for a decade.

I also wonder whether his association with Sallie Bernard of SafeMinds had any influence over his anti-vaccine proclivities?

Trawling through the documents, they don't look that good for William Thompson. If Wakefield convinced him to hand these over, then once again that was bad advice.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 04 Jan 2016 #permalink

Bah, failed link closure.

It still works.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 04 Jan 2016 #permalink

@ Chris Preston:

Well, I didn't expect much but that is pretty abysmal.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 04 Jan 2016 #permalink

Well, I didn’t expect much but that is pretty abysmal.

And all AoA has is three tediously repetitive posts about Hillary Clinton. I suppose the wheels of crankery grind slowly or something.

@ Narad:

You'd think that all of those *educated*, warrior, feminist, paradigm-shifting mothers would like Hillary but no, she's alright with vaccines.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 04 Jan 2016 #permalink

Delphine: How many MBAs do you work with? Because in my career (private sector CPGs then international development NGO) I’ve worked closely with dozens. I now work with a lot of academics, really smart people, highly specialized folk with great ideas.

Well, I'm in non-profit (working at a museum) with occasional free-lance work, so I don't work with any. But when the field's publicly represented by Trump, Fiorina, the guys at Enron and the people portrayed in the Big Short, it kinda kills my desire to ever interact with any. Those who object to my characterizations might want to think about running for office or raising their profile if they want MBAs to have a better image.

AF: Again, stereotyping is not 'being lazy.' If I were being lazy, I wouldn't bother to come up with several scripts and lies to suit any social situation, I'd just blurt out any thing that came into my head. Assembling a guide to group behaviors and coaching myself into conforming to them is the opposite of laziness. Research saves (social) lives.

LW: It's funny you should mention Vernon, as I think I've bought some of her prints. I didn't know she did a novel, so I'll have to keep an eye out for that.
As far as movies go, I don't watch many new releases due to lack of interest/ not wanting to pay full-price, or bad scheduling on the part of the local discount theater.
There's an itty-bitty theater near my place that shows all sorts of off-beat films, and that's where I go for most of my viewing needs. Plus Netflix, the local libraries and my own stash. (There's always one or two discs that I've never broken the cellophane on.)
I suspect I'll have to see the new Star Wars soon, since I can't avoid the spoilers forever, and the Martian was one of the few films that I just couldn't wait for.

Meg: Fair enough. I try to act in a logical, rational and non-emotional manner and am often disappointed when I fall short. Plus it doesn't help that logic is often intensely personal- a behavior that makes complete sense to one person is sometimes offputting to other people- like, for instance, adhering to a rigid schedule or plotting out social events.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 04 Jan 2016 #permalink

And all AoA has is three tediously repetitive posts about Hillary Clinton.

That is better than Dan Olmstead fussing that because he once met a real life small time conspiracy, then all conspiracy theories must be true. Even ones involving the tossing of old meeting agendas into a wastebasket.

By Chris Preston (not verified) on 04 Jan 2016 #permalink

Even ones involving the tossing of old meeting agendas into a wastebasket.

I'm starting to wonder whether this might be a fantasy based on something along the lines of a memo stating what could be discarded.

^ "(pen-) ultimately based"

Perhaps you are thinking of Clause 33 in the Charter, which bans the construction of fish-weirs

Well, herr doktor bimler #178; Since the *sobriety checkpoint* has become a fishing trip for any of the tiniest infractions your statement is validated.

Naturally, the answer I was looking for was *42*. But,Ohh! The deplorable King's fish weirs -- I'd be doubly irked should I have to jump through hoops of fire to finally be granted the opportunity to through the State money for the priviledge of portaging around them.

@ PGP #119

The mere 'doubters' don't post. I mean real doubt, as in "there seem to be two sides here, and I just don't know..." The true believer AVers use the rhetoric of 'doubt', but they're obviously convinced. The point here is that there aren't enough folks on AoA etc. to lower immunization rates to outbreak danger levels, even in the 'clusters'. There have to be a good number of parents who aren't passionate or vocal and are just avoiding or deferring the shots for the problem to reach public health threat status.

Fear of having a non-competitive kid is a component of fear of autism, but to the fearful 'autism' doesn't mean 'high-functioning' ASD (nee Asperger's) where the kid can even get on the competitive field. It means an extremely dependent special needs child who will suck up all your time, destroy YOUR chances at a competitive career, and never shower you with hugs and kisses, but just stare off into space in their own private world.

Sadmar's right:
they were hoping that their child would be an *asset* for which they had bragging rights- not a *liability* and time drain.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 05 Jan 2016 #permalink

Naturally, the answer I was looking for was *42*

Clause 42 of the Charter guaranteed the barons' freedom to leave and re-enter the kingdom (except in time of war). It doesn't seem especially relevant to a purported right of access to roads for internal travel (as in your comment #169).

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 05 Jan 2016 #permalink

...Of course "42" is always a cromulent answer.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 05 Jan 2016 #permalink

In a land of liberty, herr doktor bimler #211, each man is his own kingdom and his residence is his castle.

Thanks, LW. Well, it's not too early to start making a birthday list.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 05 Jan 2016 #permalink

Well, I’m in non-profit (working at a museum) with occasional free-lance work, so I don’t work with any (MBAs)

No shit.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 05 Jan 2016 #permalink

I was disappointed (though unsurprised) that the guy who wrote Snowpiercer was a libertarian of the most disgusting sort.

'Unsurprised', PgP #189? The guy was a relatively unknown. Snowpiercer was fantastic cinematography -- BTW, Do you wear dentures?

hdb @212 -- 42 really is 6 x 9, in base 13.

By palindrom (not verified) on 05 Jan 2016 #permalink

Gilly-boy:
1. I don't give personal details to libertarian bastards like yourself. So screw you. Though that's a different mistake then people usually make about me.
2. Unsurprised because the film's hero and villain were both Randian archetypes. I don't care about the cinematagraphy, I'm not giving one dime to that rat Neal Stephenson.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 05 Jan 2016 #permalink

@pgp #186 Quite a few British writers are politically left-wing. Not only Mieville, but also for example Ian McLeod, Ken McLeod, Hal Duncan and (most notably) Richard Morgan. Might have something to do with growing up under Iron Lady's rule.

I was disappointed (though unsurprised) that the guy who wrote Snowpiercer was a libertarian of the most disgusting sort.

Imma pretty sure that Jacques Tardi is an anti-war, anti-authoritarian anarchist.

I don’t care about the cinematagraphy, I’m not giving one dime to that rat Neal Stephenson.

I have no idea what is going on here., except that we have 'Snowpiercer', libertarianism and Neal Stephenson -- three things which have nothing to do with one another.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 06 Jan 2016 #permalink

Possibly PGP is confusing Snowpiercer with Snow Crash, which is by Stephenson. I have not read Snow Crash so can't say what it has to do with libertarianism.

Sadmar:. It means an extremely dependent special needs child who will suck up all your time, destroy YOUR chances at a competitive career, and never shower you with hugs and kisses, but just stare off into space in their own private world.

Yeah, that's another problem. A lot of times, a diagnosis of autism completely destroys the parent-child bond, and even when it doesn't, the parents need a lot of support they aren't getting. Daycares both need to be less costly and have more staff, and there also needs to be some dedicated 24-hr care things that only cater to autistic children. Most parents, especially the type-A, keeping-up-with-Jones type endemic to suburbia are not able to provide the care, and the mothers, as we've seen, tend to turn on their offspring, and worsen the situation by convincing the kids they are worthless.

Gil: By the way, as I'm morbidly curious, why do you believe the Magna Carta has any utility in the modern world, aside from it's historical status and the documents that succeeded it? Do you realize it was written a few hundred years before any one other than crazy Vikings knew about America? That it was only written to apply within English borders? It's hypocritical to accuse me of being elderly when you're the jackass caught in a time-warp.

Alia: Richard Morgan, seriously? From his writing, I wouldn't have expected that. Though, to be fair, Market Forces is pretty unflattering to the culture it portrays. I already knew that Ken Mcleod was pretty far-out politically. I don't know Ian Mcleod though.

LW: You're right, I was mixing Snowpiercer up with something else. My bad. Anything by Stephenson is going to be awful, given the company he hangs out with (Day, Bill Cosby's admirer John Ringo, etc.), so I'd suggest you spare your eyeballs.

hdb: I apologize for the slur on the good people behind Snowpiercer.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 06 Jan 2016 #permalink

@pgp - Try Morgan's "Land Fit for Heroes" trilogy. He took heroic fantasy, basically the most "manly", racist and prejudiced type of fantasy (think Conan) and he turned it into... something totally different. A lot of readers were outraged because his main character, the manly war hero, happens to be homosexual.

Alia: Oh, yeah, I keep forgetting about that trilogy. George Martin could learn a few things from him. (I'm sorry if you're a fan but Game of Thrones needs to learn that "realistic medieval fantasy" does not need to mean 'at least one rape scene per season.) I have tried to read the trilogy a few times, but somehow I never make it through.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 06 Jan 2016 #permalink

why do you believe the Magna Carta has any utility in the modern world, aside from it’s historical status and the documents that succeeded it?

Just because. Well, there is that whole 'common law' thing.

Elderly? Yo Gabba Gabba, I like bugs-- Bugs, bugs, bugs.
{but I wouldn't want to drop any spoilers}

@ PGP:

Agreed about GoT.
Not only rape but castration, witchcraft /genital mutilation, burning children alive.

I've seen most of it on television and have read the first one and a half books. That's it. I watch it occasionally if it's on but won't make a point of it weekly commitment.

Martin will repeat these events over and again to get attention I suppose.

I always note that some writers aren't inventive enough to create interesting characters and situations so about a third of the way through their manuscript they toss in spirits/ aliens/ vampires/ rogue robots or, in Martin's case, rape and mutilation.

Creating a world in scifi or fantasy is another issue. That takes ability and understanding of THIS world.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 06 Jan 2016 #permalink

Supreme Court citations of the Charter now number over a hundred. A federal district judge even cited it in Paula Jones’ sexual harassment suit in 1994 against President Clinton. She ruled against delaying the suit during the President’s term of office

http://www.historytoday.com/ralph-v-turner/meaning-magna-carta-1215

neener, neener. PgP, why do you hate?

@pgp - Don't worry, I'm not a fan of GoT. I read the first two books when they appeared, back in the last millenium - and then the series started growing uncontrollably and I realised it might be decades before it all ended (if it ended at all), so I stopped. I don't watch the TV series, either.

@Gilbert: "the right to travel" /= "the right to drive 2 tons of steel/plastic/whatever through a residential area at 120 mph"

I have not read Snow Crash so can’t say what it has to do with libertarianism.

I am given to believe that "Snow Crash" is set in a future world where the legitimacy and authority of nation-states have collapsed, and been replaced by the authority of corporates and tech tycoons. This vaguely libertarian future is not portrayed as a complete hellish dystopia, because the author wanted to sell copies.

If that makes Stephenson a libertarian, then writing "Anathem" makes him a religious mystic, and writing the WW-2 sections of "Cryptonomicon" makes him an advocate of a controlled war-footing economy.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 06 Jan 2016 #permalink

Even in a helecoptor, Sarah A #229?

Now I'm going to have to go read Snow Crash again. My memory is that it was a pretty grueling world for the little people. But, I read it when it first came out so, well, it's been a while. I may also be conflating it with various works by William Gibson.

I do remember Diamond Age, though. Loved some of the tech in the book. The world was very nice for the rich and much less so for the poor.

You wouldn’t even bother to humiliate yourself with that reply if you were aware that there are some who call me “Tim, Tlm…”

Oh, right:

I’m also known as tim; *plonk*

How, exactly, does one drive a helicopter through a residential area?

By shay simmons (not verified) on 06 Jan 2016 #permalink

Gilley: Dude, lay off the drugs. That post would've been better with just the cite, and preferably, a cite from an academic or law site. I also note that almost all of the circumstances Turner cites are peculiarly English situations. They don't have a thing to do with American law, except as a point of origin.
Finally, I submit that you should find a better place to exhibit your talking rear end and possibly take up a new hobby. Might I suggest the trombone, suitable for a bag of hot air such as yourself.

HDB: All I need to know about Stephenson is that he was part of the Sad puppy slate, which means he agrees with people like Day and Ringo that the sci-fi fanbase and the writers doesn't need or want women or minorities around. Which means he can get along fine without my money, as I will not forgive him for those shenanigans.
Shay Simmons: I think he's counting the air space as part of the 'neighborhood.' Ludicrous, but par for the course.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 06 Jan 2016 #permalink

I've not watched more than a few episodes of GoT, but have heard that people are willing to listen to all kinds of exposition if there are naked people on the screen.

I'm waiting for someone to apply the same principle to, say, Hamlet.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 06 Jan 2016 #permalink

PGP @ 235: I've dug around and I can't find Neal Stephenson on any of the sad puppy ballots. And I can't imagine in a bazillion years that he'd bother with them, even if he did lean that way (which I've never seen any indication of).

Is Neal terribly impressed with himself and write books that are too long and don't end well (from a writing perspective)? Yes.
Is he like the sad or rabid puppies? No. He's a nice guy.

Also there were works that ended up on the sad and rabid puppy lists without the knowledge or permission of the creators, several of whom did not find out in time to pull out of the awards voting. And I hardly count The Avengers as a win for the puppies.

The way that the rest of SF/F rescues the Hugos this year is to drown out all the puppies by nominating the Discworld series. I know I'll pay my $40 to join just to get at that collection (digital copies of all works are available to voting members), even if I don't vote for it (sorry PTerry).

By JustaTech (not verified) on 06 Jan 2016 #permalink

All I need to know about Stephenson is that he was part of the Sad puppy slate, which means he agrees with people like Day and Ringo

You seem to be under the impression that the Sad Puppy people went around asking authors' permissions before nominating their books for awards.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 06 Jan 2016 #permalink

HDB: Well, recently there was Much Ado About Nothing with bikinis, but as yet, no nude editions of Shakespeare plays. I think the Tempest or Midsummer Night's Dream might be more suited for an all nude stage production. I don't know about you, but a nude sword fight, even with blunted swords, sounds like an accident waiting to happen. (Let's not even get started on what a trainwreck staging Romeo and Juliet nude would be.

Justatech: Maybe there was another Neal on the list, cause I could've sworn Stephenson was a ringleader in that particular stunt.

And why wouldn't you vote for the Discworld series? It's better than almost anything you can find in fantasy these days. (Although I hate to admit that I couldn't get through the last book. It hit too close to home.)

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 06 Jan 2016 #permalink

I’m waiting for someone to apply the same principle to, say, Hamlet.

The parental sign-off form for a field trip to view Zefferelli's Romeo and Juliet when I was in high school did make mention of the nudity, FWIW.

Narad: But that was just one scene and one character. I think what HDB is looking for is a bit more exposure than that.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 06 Jan 2016 #permalink

My apologies, it's M'oB that wants the naked swordfights. Sorry everyone. Having a bad brain day.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 06 Jan 2016 #permalink

I’m waiting for someone to apply the same principle to, say, Hamlet.

The 1999 film of a Midsummer night's dream (with Michelle Pfeiffer and Sophie Marceau*) has a bit of nudity, when the 4 lovers are found by the Duke and his suite, in the morning and in the buff. It's actually quite family-friendly, by French standards, especially since two shotgun weddings ensue.
But no naked sword-fight.

* No, neither of them end up naked. Or using swords. Sorry fans.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 06 Jan 2016 #permalink

Offhand, there's the (one-sidedly) naked knife fight in Eastern Promises featuring Daniel Graig in all his glory, and for Shakespeare in the nude(ish), I recommend Prospero's Books by Peter Greenaway.

/offtopic

@PGP, I have no idea what you are thinking of, because the puppies Do Not Like Neal Stephenson:

I started reading Neal Stephenson’s latest novel, Seveneves, and it is truly depressing. Less because nearly everyone on Earth dies than because he appears to have gone full SJW [Social Justice Warrior] with a Gamma [male] sauce. It’s the first time I’ve found it necessary to force myself to keep reading one of his books, and the first time one of his books has struck me as being proper Pink SF. Female presidents, token ethnic melanges, you name it, he’s got it to such an extent that were it not for Stephenson’s past gamma [male] markers, I would almost suspect an epic, master-class trolling of the current genre.” — Theodore “Vox Day” Beale

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 06 Jan 2016 #permalink

— Theodore “Vox Day” Beale

Which takes us back to the OP....

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 06 Jan 2016 #permalink

If memory serves there was a Viennese production of the opera Hamlet, where the baritone in the titular role spends most of his time in the buff. I don't know if that qualifies.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 07 Jan 2016 #permalink

"the puppies Do Not Like Neal Stephenson:"

Beale doesn't speak for "the Puppies". He may speak for the Rabid Puppies (his minions) but the Sad Puppies aren't any fonder of him than you are. When i get a chance, I'll try to see what some of the Sad Puppies may have said about Seveneves, though they don't speak for each other or think in lockstep.

herr doktor bimler - I have to admit, nudity would make listening to Hamlet being sung in French (or was it German?) a more interesting affair.

Politicalguineapig - I said nothing about naked swordfights, but about nudity during the exposition (the long talky bits). A naked sword fight would create an unexpected double entendre in the line "Why, as a woodcock to mine own springe, Osric; I am justly kill'd with mine own treachery.", which might not be appropriate to the scene.

But really, which of Polonius's longer speeches couldn't be improved by some background nudity? Or indeed, foreground nudity while he drones on in the background?

Does Game of Thrones feature naked sword fights? If so, those are some of the bravest actors in TV today!

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 07 Jan 2016 #permalink

@LW True enough. That quote was from pretty much the only article I could find mentioning both N.S. and *any* of the recent Puppy Campaigns, though (it's from i09), and I didn't really feel like venturing deeper into the cesspool...

Also, regarding The Martian for PGP -it's not so much that Andy Weir decided to take the high road and avoid the entire kerfuffle, it's that the book wasn't eligible to be nominated because it was originally published on-line a ways back (and then in a Kindle version) but only came out as a print book last year. If memory serves, he got the movie deal and the book deal within a week or so of each other. I actually *heard* about the book when people were starting to ponder what they would nominate for the Hugos and so many people were sad they could not choose The Martian because it was the best thing they'd read that year.

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 07 Jan 2016 #permalink

M'OB:Which play is that from? And thanks for clearing that up- I do agree that Polonius's speeches could use some spicing up.
LW: Well, like I said, maybe it was another Neal. Though Stephenson has a bit of a reputation of being fond of exploring his colon. I hope the author of City of stairs wasn't a puppy.
Emma Crew: I'd heard that the timing was a bit of an issue, though I didn't know that the Martian was first released as an e-book. (Since the nook expired, I don't keep up with them. I may need another as the future holds lots of traveling. Or some way to get e-books on the tablet.) Let's hope he writes another one that's as good, stays out of politics and actually gets the Hugo. If the whole political kerfluff doesn't force Worldcon to scrap them.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 07 Jan 2016 #permalink

Though Stephenson has a bit of a reputation of being fond of exploring his colon

I suspect that he was exposed to Thomas Pynchon at an impressionable age and has been trying to re-write "Gravity's Rainbow" ever since.

a nude sword fight, even with blunted swords, sounds like an accident waiting to happen

If people *insist* on that topic, here is a 1644 fencing manual with unclad illustrations:
http://diglib.hab.de/drucke/xb-7532-1s/start.htm

Also:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Pollaiuolo_nude_war…

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 07 Jan 2016 #permalink

Finally, I submit that you should find a better place to exhibit your talking rear end and possibly take up a new hobby.

Pardon me, for *assing* you a few questions.

I'm sure you'd be sick to know that, during the single idiopathic episode Narad #233 references, which I have reason to believe was brought about through high doses of surreptitiously administered dissociatives, I chose a 'bo' over a double barrel shotgun as my close-quarters self-defense weapon of choice-- That, and an acrylic ball wrapped in a sock in the form of a *monkey's fist knot*.

Joe Biden: "buy a shotgun"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jafkVM-jnbE

May his supporters take Obama's limp-wristed stance and absorb the recoil of their *double-barreled shotgun* with their face. Again and again; Repeatedly.

Which play is that from?

Hamlet. Said my Laertes as he succumbs to the poison on his blade now wielded by Hamlet.

Gaist: Thanks. Obviously, it's time to reread Hamlet, as last year's production didn't stick in my head, and this year my theater of choice is putting on Richard III as their only Shakespeare offering. Though in May, they're putting on a Jeeves (Yes, as in THAT Jeeves.) play.

Gilly: First of all, did you notice that's a troll channel, not an actual news broadcast? In other words, while that is probably Joe Biden, that's an edited-to-heck video, where the person putting it up took news clips and edited them until they appeared in the order he wanted. So, that's not the actual opinion of Biden, who, if you didn't know, is currently Obama's vice president. It'd be pretty strange if the number two guy in the administration was THAT far to the right of the pres. I seem to remember him coming out preetty strongly against guns in the wake of the Newtown thing. Then again, you seem to have the same understanding of politics as you do of reality; a weak one.

Secondly, I really have no interest in your weapon of choice, except to point out that they're not going to do you a great deal of good without training. I still submit that you should take up a wind instrument and lay off the drugs.
I sincerely doubt that was a single episode, as judging from your posts, you're only a bit more coherent than you were back then, and your brain activity hasn't really increased.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 07 Jan 2016 #permalink

PGP @239: Because Sir Terry asked to not be considered (back in the day). And something mind blowing might come up. Or Mercedes Lackey could get nominated, in which case I've vote for her over anything.

gaist @245: I think you're thinking of Viggo Mortensen rather than Daniel Craig. (Not that I've seen the movie, but 'hey naked Aragorn' tends to stick in the mind.

By JustaTech (not verified) on 07 Jan 2016 #permalink

Justatech: Huh, I didn't know that. As far as mind-blowing, have you read Austin Grossman's latest? Or the Lagoon by Nnedi Okorafar? Also, rumor has it that Willis, Bujold and Mckillip all have new books coming out this year, and I know Mieville recently published a new short-story collection. His short stories are, if anything, weirder than his novels.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 07 Jan 2016 #permalink

@ JustaTech:

You are correct about Viggo Mortensen in that film- which I saw- but he looked very different than from when he portrayed Aragorn

-btw - there's a common jibe amongst my cohorts about me and "James Bond" as one of my creatures rather resembles Mr. Craig.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 07 Jan 2016 #permalink

, that’s an edited-to-heck video, where the person putting it up took news clips and edited them until they appeared in the order he wanted. So, that’s not the actual opinion of Biden, who, if you didn’t know, is currently Obama’s vice president.

PgP #256, I really don't believe that they would go to all that trouble when the whole scipt is in one online Q&A with Parents Magazine**.

Kate, if you want to protect yourself get a double-barreled shotgun, have the shells of a 12-gauge shotgun and I promise you, as I told my wife – we live in an area that is wooded and somewhat secluded – I said, ‘Jill if there is ever a problem just walk out on the balcony here, walk out, put that double barreled shotgun and fire two blasts outside the house. I promise you whoever is coming in is not going to.’ You don’t need an AR 15. It is harder to aim, it is harder to use and in fact you don’t need thirty rounds to protect yourself. Buy a shotgun. Buy a shotgun.

http://lybio.net/tag/joe-biden-buy-a-shotgun-gun-transcript/
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/joe-biden-double-barrel-shotgun-comment…

**Parents 'Magazine' is not a gunowner rag nor is it the Family Dollar high capacity lower.

Just for the record, Viggo Mortensen is a real live Master swordsman:

In 2009, Mortensen appeared as himself in the film Reclaiming The Blade, in which he discussed his passion for the sword and his sword-work in films such as The Lord of the Rings and Alatriste.

h_ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viggo_Mortensen#Acting_career

The Road was pretty good though he did little to no swording naked even after making a thief remove his clothes.

More rantings from a parallel universe. You aren't exactly a reliable resource.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 08 Jan 2016 #permalink

PGP, the bigotry you display has already made you a most unpleasant person to have around, you really don't need to add denial of reality to the mix.

Biden said it. It was a stupid thing to say on many levels. Suck it up and deal with it.

Johnny: "Denial of reality?" Have you been reading the poster child of unreliability's posts? Of course I doubted that Biden said it, even though he's been known for liking the taste of his feet. If Gil posted that the sky was blue, I'd need ten links and a sworn affadavit.
And finally, I am NOT a bigot. I stick to making fun of my own race.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 08 Jan 2016 #permalink

PGP @263

And finally, I am NOT a bigot. I stick to making fun of my own race.

Bigotry is not about race. It’s about an inability to deal with others who are not like yourself.

You are a bigot.

@Politicalguineapig, do you really want to make the likes of Theodore Beale the arbiter of your tastes? Because that's what you're doing by saying you wouldn't read anything by Neal Stephenson because you believed the Puppies (more specifically the Rabid Puppies, Beale's minions) had nominated his work for something. Do you know that Beale has said that if he'd read the Three Body Problem in time, he would have added it to the Rabid Puppy slate? Would it then have been unworthy of the Hugo? You know, I wouldn't put it past Beale to put some works that he detests on the Rabid Puppy slate this year, for the sheer nihilistic joy of putting the authors in a position of permanent suspicion -- like the suspicion you felt about Stephenson.

I sincerely suggest that you look at works on their own merit, not based on who else might like them. Amazon or similar sites can help -- just look up a book or author you've liked in the past and see what "people who bought this also bought..."

That's one reason the Hugo flap can't reduce fandom to white men 12-30 as you said some time back. The authors you like can still find their audience no matter what happens at Worldcon.

Chemmomo: Nope, bigotry is and always has been defined as racial prejudice. It's not bigotry, it's simply smart categorization. And it makes socializing a lot easier when you have a clearly defined set of taboos to avoid, and you leave the emotions at home, where they belong.

LW: Actually I don't want Beale near the fandom or reading ANY books but Rand's "novels."
He honestly should have been kicked out of Worldcon for this, and his friends should face expulsion too.
But anything Beale likes is something I could probably give up without a tear, given that his tastes are generally abysmal and his writing can't even aspire to the level of fishwrap.

I'm actually surprised he read the Three Body Problem- didn't he notice Liu is rather obviously non-white? And yes, the Three-Body problem would have been tainted by the Hugo if Beale had nominated it. Anyway, what would Beale or any of his friends care what I think? By their lights, anyone with ovaries is non-sentient.

The problem is that things can no longer be judged JUST on their own merit, but they have to be weighed against where the money the artist gets will go, what they believe, and what they have done or will do in the future. They have money, and money buys elections. Influence is also a currency of its own, as is pure association. (For instance, if a celebrity who's work I liked hung out with someone else who voluntarily associated with say, Trump or Bill Cosby, or another known sex offender, I'd really have to wonder about them.) Libraries provide a loophole, but they might not be around in the future.
International authors are safer, as they don't have a stake in US policies, and I mostly spend money on either local bands or groups from outside the US. I gave up country music long ago, thankfully.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 08 Jan 2016 #permalink

I've so far avoided interacting with Politicalguineapig's more outrageous comments, and probably should keep doing it, but...

Nope, bigotry is and always has been defined as racial prejudice. It’s not bigotry, it’s simply smart categorization. And it makes socializing a lot easier when you have a clearly defined set of taboos to avoid, and you leave the emotions at home, where they belong.

Bigotry* isn't about race. It originated as meaning religious hypocrisy and evolved from there (except in French where it still means that).

What you're doing is categorization but it's not smart, at least at the scale you do it. and as for your justification that it makes socializing easier...

....Why do you think Beale's reasons for doing it are any different? If you hold your views in higher regard than other people, it's easy to pretend they're cardboard cutouts rather than human beings comparable to yourself, but it's not smart, and while it might make social interactions less stressful for you, I doubt it makes actual social contact easier.

/involvement

Back to skimming some of Politicalguinepig's comments and scrolling past most.

And my apologies to Mr- Mortensen for mixing him up with Mr Craig.

* (dictionary definition, because everybody so loves being quoted the dictionary): Bigot: One who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.

No, Politicalguineapig, you are wrong. Bigotry is not exclusive to race.

This will go into moderation, as I am linking multiple on line dictionaries.
Merriam Webster: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot

a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Dictionary. com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bigot?s=t

a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

Free dictionary http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bigot

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

Cambridge On line: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/bigot

a person who has strong , unreasonable ideas, esp. about race or religion, and who thinks anyone who does not have the same beliefs is wrong

OR

a person who has strong, unreasonable beliefs and who does not like other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life

PGP

it’s simply smart categorization

You defend yourself by waving a flag of prejudice as if that’s a good thing. It’s not, and it never was, and it will never be.

You have spent years now spewing hateful and hurtful comments on this website. You have insulted just about every group imaginable: MBAs (this week), nurses (last year http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/02/24/as-states-try-to-crack-dow…
), immigrants, southerners, northern Californian hippies, gun-totin’-Michigan Militia ,folks who were educated at public schools in the US. As far as I can tell, based on your postings on RI, you basically hate everyone who is not a nerdy white girl whose parents don’t understand her.

I am so sick of reading your over generalized nonsense statements (that’s the G-rated version; since one of my kids is still in elementary school I’m curbing my language). Many of your comments suggest that anyone is not the mirror image of the nerdy white girl described above do not deserve basic social services (education and vaccines; I will post the links where you stated this if I have to).

I don’t want to hate you. But you need to stop putting the uncomfortable part of the world into boxes. That’s not how the world works.

I want you to do better.
That means dealing with individuals as individuals.

Can you do that?

@Politicalguineapig, I sometimes wonder if you are just trolling us, but you've been very consistent for years so unfortunately I guess you really think this way.

Starting at the top of your comment, how can you think that “bigotry is and always has been defined as racial prejudice”? Don't you have any real world experience?

When a Catholic despises Protestants, when a Protestant despises Catholics, when a Trump despises Muslims, or when a Politicalguineapig despises Christians, they are all religious bigots.

When a Theodore Beale despises women or a Politicalguineapig despises men, they are both sexists, but also bigots.

Moving on,

Actually I don’t want Beale near the fandom or reading ANY books but Rand’s “novels.”

But fortunately you have no power to deny him or anyone else access to any books. If you did, they would likewise have the power to deny you or anyone else access to any books.

He honestly should have been kicked out of Worldcon for this, and his friends should face expulsion too.

He wasn't at Worldcon. How would you identify his friends? Shall we require them to wear a special symbol, perhaps? Do you really not see where this is going?

But anything Beale likes is something I could probably give up without a tear, given that his tastes are generally abysmal and his writing can’t even aspire to the level of fishwrap.

Oh, okay, so you are willing to make him the arbiter of your tastes. Noted. Not that I'd argue about the quality of his writing. I won't read it either. But he's not the arbiter of my tastes.

I’m actually surprised he read the Three Body Problem- didn’t he notice Liu is rather obviously non-white?

You're surprised? Maybe you don't totally understand every single action by every single person you've ever heard of.

And yes, the Three-Body problem would have been tainted by the Hugo if Beale had nominated it.

That's not what I asked. Certainly you would have felt the Hugo was tainted, but my question was whether the book would have been unworthy of the Hugo? Is it now unworthy of the Hugo because you now know that Beale read it and liked it? Is it only worthy by reason of the happenstance that he didn't get to it in time? Will you now not read it or anything by Liu ever again because Beale liked it? Why do you let Beale make that decision for you?

Anyway, what would Beale or any of his friends care what I think? By their lights, anyone with ovaries is non-sentient.

They don't care. My question was why you care what they think.

The problem is that things can no longer be judged JUST on their own merit, but they have to be weighed against where the money the artist gets will go, what they believe, and what they have done or will do in the future. They have money, and money buys elections.

Oh, dear child.

We're talking about writers. Generally speaking we're talking about people have day jobs because writing doesn't pay enough to pay the rent. The ones who make it big, GRR Martin for instance, still don't remotely compare with those who make it big in other fields. They're not buying elections.

Influence is also a currency of its own, as is pure association. (For instance, if a celebrity who’s work I liked hung out with someone else who voluntarily associated with say, Trump or Bill Cosby, or another known sex offender, I’d really have to wonder about them.)

So if X “hangs out” with Y who voluntarily associated with Z at some point in history, X is forever under a cloud of suspicion … you must be a joy in real life: “Do you now have, or have you ever had, friends who have ever voluntarily associated with anyone who was ever convicted or accused of any of the following offenses, including sex offenses, religious bigotry towards Muslims, or general crudeness?”

Libraries provide a loophole, but they might not be around in the future.

Ah, yes, civil society will be destroyed by the next election and life will once again be solitary, poor, nasty, brutal, and short.

International authors are safer, as they don’t have a stake in US policies, and I mostly spend money on either local bands or groups from outside the US.

It may have escaped your notice, but everyone has a stake in US policies. We are simply too big and too powerful for the rest of the world to ignore.

I gave up country music long ago, thankfully.

Given your attitudes, I'm astonished you ever listened to it.

Nope, bigotry is and always has been defined as racial prejudice.

Only by you...and you're wrong.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 09 Jan 2016 #permalink

@ PGP
If I should give up on all music made by people who have ideas I don't agree with, I'm affraid I have to get rid of quite some stuff.
No more Rush, for their love of Ayn Rand.
No more Beatles, for the Eastern philosofies of George Harrison.
And I think the list will go on and on. One member of one of my favorite groups is nowadays a paediatrician who is also in alternative stuff.

LW: I am not making Beale the 'arbiter' of my tastes. I just scrutinize his tastes to make sure I won't be giving money to any of his friends and fellow sabotuers. Liu will probably get my money, as I'm sure he has probably never interacted with Beale and would probably be appalled. Also, saying Beale 'read' the book is a stretch- he probably only read the first and last pages. As long as we're on the topic, I should point out that some people probably have given up on such authors as Marion Zimmer Brown and Sarah Douglass, and no one chides them for letting the author's pasts or fantasies influence their choices to give the authors their money.

Gaist: If you hold your views in higher regard than other people, it’s easy to pretend they’re cardboard cutouts rather than human beings comparable to yourself, but it’s not smart, and while it might make social interactions less stressful for you, I doubt it makes actual social contact easier.

I don't actually hold my views in higher regard. I don't usually tell people my views on ANYTHING, unless I know them very well. I just use my knowledge of the people around me to make sure I avoid any conversational tarpits. For instance, if I had a couple with small children in my orbit, I'd make sure not to talk about science or medicine, and around my friends who are Christians, I usually fudge the details of where I work,(I work at the local science museum, but in conversation it's just 'the museum' or if pressed, 'the Children's Museum,' which is actually a different instituition) and don't talk about meteor showers, the new books I got, or that cool new dinosaur they discovered the other day. Politics are equally verboten.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 09 Jan 2016 #permalink

"Marion Zimmer Brown"

It's Marion Zimmer Bradley, and I did grow up on that, but if I had known then what I know now, I wouldn't have given her a dime of my money. Not because the "wrong people" liked her work, but because of what she personally did.

And, just by the by, I know lots of Christians (also Hindus, Jews, and Muslims). I don't fudge anything about my non-belief and no one gives me any grief about it. Either you hang out with a really sad group of people, or you have thoroughly misjudged them.

@PG Your assumption that all Christians are anti-science smacks of bigotry to me.

@LW somehow all of that about MZB had escaped my notice until just now, and I'm horrified and saddened. House Between the Worlds was my gateway into f/sf. Piecing things together, I lived in the same neighborhood as MZB until I was about eight. I was usually with the family next door after school and one f their kids was named Cameron, so I had this secret little fantasy that she'd heard our names together at the park and that was where the changeling character's birth name (Emma Cameron) came from. And now that idea creeps me out. Sigh.

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 09 Jan 2016 #permalink

If you hold your views in higher regard than other people, it’s easy to pretend they’re cardboard cutouts rather than human beings comparable to yourself, but it’s not smart, and while it might make social interactions less stressful for you, I doubt it makes actual social contact easier.

My irony meter just imploded.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 09 Jan 2016 #permalink

@shay simmons, don't worry about it. She's quoting Gaist #267, not addressing her.

I should have realized that, although PGP's lack of self-awareness more or less blinds her to what she's doing to herself.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 09 Jan 2016 #permalink

What is it with these yahoos’ obsession with the innate immune system? Do they distrust the adaptive immune system because it evolved later and is thus less “natural?”

This, Sarah A #140:

The findings imply that these Neanderthal genes must have served our ancestors well if they are still hanging out in our genome today, and especially at such high frequency...

The innate immune response is different from the acquired immune response that we get through exposure to pathogens, either through vaccines or simply getting sick. Innate immunity kicks in first, and if it’s successful, it can destroy a pathogen in a few hours, before we even know we are sick.

Because this innate immune response is so useful, it has been a strong site of positive selection over time, Quintana-Murci said.

http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-neanderthal-genes-i…

Thx for considering the cost of possibly breaking it for every single individual in favor of a few homogenized, discrete lymphocytes, heros.

@Gilbert

I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make here. My question was actually rhetorical; it was my tongue-in-cheek way of making fun of antivaxxers who use the phrase "innate immune system" without understanding what it actually means.

Thx for considering the cost of possibly breaking it for every single individual in favor of a few homogenized, discrete lymphocytes, heros

If this is a confused version of the "vaccination favors adaptive immunity over innate immunity" claim, you're wrong. You can't generate adaptive immunity without going through the innate system first, regardless of whether the primary exposure is through infection or vaccination. But thanks for demonstrating exactly why I make fun of antivaxxers' half-baked attempts to sound like they actually understand immunology.

@PGP:

It’s not bigotry, it’s simply smart categorization.

Beale says the exact same thing about his bigotry, and it's just as true for him as it is for you.

I’m actually surprised he read the Three Body Problem- didn’t he notice Liu is rather obviously non-white?

You've just demonstrated that Beale is less bigoted than you. Congratulations! That's hard to do.

By their lights, anyone with ovaries is non-sentient.

The problem with this kind of hyperbole is that it makes people who have any familiarity with what he actually says go "wait, what he believes is odious, but it isn't that bad." That's not the kind of thought you wan them to have.

It also communicates that you're not willing to make a good faith effort to come to a mutual understanding.

By justthestats (not verified) on 11 Jan 2016 #permalink

Justthestats: Might I point out that Beale all but qualifies for the Ku Klux Klan? Considering all the grumbling he and his fellows did about non-white authors 'stealing' the awards, turning around and praising a Chinese guy is a bit of a twist, and again, proof that Beale is not smart. And as far as the Three Body problem is concerned, I like it but feel all the numbers get in the way.

I didn't think that remark was an exaggeration.

Finally, no. No, and never. There is no common ground with creatures of Beale's sort, and no possibility of 'mutual understanding.' He'd have to come to terms with the 20th century first.

LW: " I don’t fudge anything about my non-belief and no one gives me any grief about it. Either you hang out with a really sad group of people, or you have thoroughly misjudged them."

Weirdly, my religion ( or lack of) never came up.I prefer to pursue my hobbies in solitude, anyway, so I don't share about them, unless somehow one of my friends turns out to share them. As far as my job goes, again, I prefer to not indulge in 'tarpits.' It's easier to just shut up and let them do the lion's share of talking.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 15 Jan 2016 #permalink

Might I point out that Beale all but qualifies for the Ku Klux Klan?

Yes, Beale is a bigot. So are you.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 16 Jan 2016 #permalink

Shay: My only prejudice is against dumbasses, and Beale is a sterling example of the species. The rest is just social smarts- why bother talking about a topic that no one around you has any interest in?

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 16 Jan 2016 #permalink

"My only prejudice is against dumbasses."

Would you care to re-post the comment you made months ago about all men and rape? How about the times you've made sweeping and ignorant generalizations about parents, nurses, MBAs, Southerners, people who live in the suburbs, the English, white males, truck drivers, and just about everyone else who doesn't fit into your narrow little paradigm?

Even your bragging about your social smarts is another form of prejudice. You believe that you are so smart and so special that no one around you can possibly engage you on your level.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 16 Jan 2016 #permalink

The comment about white guys was two or three years back, and I think the only remarks I've made about the English was that they were better read than Americans. Again, if you want people to think MBAs aren't sharks in suits, maybe you should invest in some PR.

And secondly, no, I wasn't bragging. My interests are just odd, and I try not to bore other people with them in real life. Scripts save lives.
I figure eventually I might encounter people who share my hobbies, but it's pretty unlikely until I reach middle age.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 16 Jan 2016 #permalink

Politicalguineapig, I can't help noticing that you avoided dealing with Shay's comment about your prejudices remarks against Southern USAns. You wanted to remove science education and vaccination from the Southern US states entirely just because a few dimwits down there didn't appreciate them. You also failed to own your rude comments about nurses on earlier threads.
I'm going to have to agree with shay. You are as bigoted, narrow-minded and prejudiced as the people you claim to oppose.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 16 Jan 2016 #permalink

PGP,
Perhaps I need to remind you of this appalling comment:

Most white men these days are unemployed and get murderous and rapey.It kinda figures though: men only socialize with other men, and it poisons their ability to connect emotionally with anyone who’s not just like them.

There is also this thread, where you made some memorably inaccurate statements about England:

As for Europe, in certain areas (Italy *cough* England *cough*) thinking has never been very popular.[...]
Well, England spent a very long time in an anti-science haze- see Victorian era- [...]
As for British people, it’s not so much that they’re stuck in superstition, as they’re stuck in the whole Victorian moral code. There’s a lot of that here, too.

I couldn't help being amused at the dismissal of Victorian England, which was at the heart of the industrial revolution, as unscientific, or the labeling of Brits as sexually repressed when we are the most sexually promiscuous country in the developed world (not that that is anything to be proud of).

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 17 Jan 2016 #permalink

“We as a species have the choice to continue to develop our bodies and brains in a healthy upward trajectory, or we can follow the Western example of recent decades and intentionally poison our population with genetically altered food, pharmaceuticals, vaccinations, and fast food that should be classified as a dangerous, addictive drug.”

...the average government-controlled Westerner as an “intensively vaccinated borderline autistic fat man slumped in front of a screen battling a high-fructose corn syrup comedown,” the report states that such tactics used by governments to subjugate their citizens are not only “dark/evil” but “counter-productive in the medium to long term.”

http://yournewswire.com/putin-human-evolution-under-threat-by-big-pharm…

How quaint. Putin doesn't sound like the kind of fellow who would drop a tab of polonium-210 into someone's Slimfast just becaused they delivered him a little Insolence...

No, wait

Expert on Russia Paul Joyal suggested that "A message has been communicated to anyone who wants to speak out against the Kremlin.... If you do, no matter who you are, where you are, we will find you, and we will silence you, in the most horrible way possible"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko#Possibl…

@PGP:

Considering all the grumbling he and his fellows did about non-white authors ‘stealing’ the awards, turning around and praising a Chinese guy is a bit of a twist, and again, proof that Beale is not smart.

My understanding is that Beale was complaining about alleged politically-motivated voters, not the ethnicity of the authors per se. As I understand Beale**, he wouldn't necessarily find a good book written by a Chinese male to be surprising.

But even if he was self-contradictory about The Three Body Problem, it would only mean that he was less bigoted than you because he gave the book an honest try and discovered he liked it.

By their lights, anyone with ovaries is non-sentient.

The problem with this kind of hyperbole is that it makes people who have any familiarity with what he actually says go “wait, what he believes is odious, but it isn’t that bad.” That’s not the kind of thought you want them to have.

I didn’t think that remark was an exaggeration.

If I remember correctly***, you could easily make the case that Beale thinks that women are generally less intelligent and make poorer decisions than you would expect given their intelligence level. But even the most hostile reading couldn't reasonably support the idea that he doesn't think that women are sentient. This is not a matter of nuance.

It also communicates that you’re not willing to make a good faith effort to come to a mutual understanding.

Finally, no. No, and never. There is no common ground with creatures of Beale’s sort, and no possibility of ‘mutual understanding.’ He’d have to come to terms with the 20th century first.

Wait, weren't you just indirectly criticizing Beale over allegedly dehumanizing women? No matter. Check this out:

Most white men these days are unemployed and get murderous and rapey.It kinda figures though: men only socialize with other men, and it poisons their ability to connect emotionally with anyone who’s not just like them.

This reads exactly like a Beale quote. I can imagine him putting that word-for-word on his blog. You have more in common than you realize!

As far as I can tell, the biggest difference between you and Beale is that Beale is a prescriptivist bigot, while you are a descriptivist bigot. In other words, Beale feels like the groups he stereotypes should not deviate from his stereotyped behavior, because his stereotyped 'typical member' isn't qualified to do so and calamity could result. You, on the other hand, seem to think that the groups you stereotype simply never do deviate from your stereotyped behavior, nor would they ever want to. But neither is true.

I'm a parent of an autistic child. I'm a member of a socially conservative Christian denomination. I have Southern and English ancestry. I've spent most of my life living in suburbs. I'm white. I'm male. I'm pretty much the embodiment of everything you hate, and yet you've acknowledged that the things I have to say have value. Why do you think I'm the only exception?

Of course, I could list a half dozen groups I'm a member of that you do value, but I choose not to in order to make a point. When you stereotype the groups I've mentioned, you're stereotyping me. And I don't fit neatly in the box you've assigned me. I'm hardly the only one. And if you were to stereotype me just by the groups I haven't mentioned, you'd come up with a completely different conclusion, but I'd still not fit neatly in that box either. I'm unique, just like everyone else.

It seems clear that you don't value having a "mutual understanding" with people unlike you. I guess I should have made it clear why that is important. It's almost impossible to guess the behavior of people you don't understand, and it's even harder to communicate with people if you don't have a mutual understanding with them. That makes life hard, because we all need to anticipate people's behavior and to communicate just to get around.

But there is a bigger picture reason why people need to come to a mutual understanding with those they disagree with. No political change is possible without meaningful communication. If they can't understand you, the things you want seem arbitrary and ridiculous. If you can't understand them, you won't know what motivates them. By coming to a mutual understanding, you can communicate your reasons in terms they can understand, and you can understand how to react to their objections in the most effective way. You might even find that they aren't as irrational as you might think. This is the way that political change happens in the real world. This is the way that people convince other people, one at a time.

You might think that Beale is a hopeless case, and he may have been tunneling in the rabbit hole so deeply that he couldn't find a way out even if he had an enormous change of heart. But he has an audience that isn't generally so committed. If you don't engage, they will spiral in unopposed. Epistemic closure is the danger of social isolation.

** Based on a small sampling of his writing, because his rants are painful for anyone not like-minded to read.

*** Even if I could find the post I'm thinking of, there is no way I'm reading that crap again.

By justthestats (not verified) on 19 Jan 2016 #permalink

Most white men these days kangaroos are unemployed and get murderous and rapey.

Pictures of a dead kangaroo dying in the arms of a male kangaroo, while her joey looked on, touched the hearts of many this week. ...

... the male kangaroo was trying to lift the female in order to mate with her.

Dr Eldridge, the Australian Museum's principal research scientist said: "The evidence is here sticking out from behind the scrotum."

"Probably the whole situation is perplexing and frustrating for him, and he is getting… hot and bothered"...

“Pursuit of these females by males can be persistent and very aggressive to the point where they can kill the female. That is not their intention but that unfortunately can be the result, so interpreting the male’s actions as being based on care for the welfare of the female or the joey is a gross misunderstanding, so much so that the male might have actually caused the death of the female.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/wildlife/12099012/Do-these-heartb…

Meh. People who work in museums don't know anything contemporary though they all always fuck fossils for free.

Well, a certain racist, sexist, homophobic dipsh!t who blithely lies about everything in sight made an appearance in the news today (3/12/16) in an item about – you guessed it! – the Donald Trump campaign. Here's what happened:

A Chicago Tribune photo of an elderly woman named Birgitt Peterson, of Yorkville, Illinois "decked out in Donald Trump campaign swag" giving a Nazi salute outside yesterday's scheduled Trump rally in Chicago went viral on social media, re-re-re-tweeted or whatever w/o the text identifying her by name. At 3:37AM this morning, a Trump supporter named Jeff Rainforth Tweeted a photo of a woman from Chillicothe, Ohio named Portia Boulger with the text, "Woman at #TrumpRally in Chicago giving Nazi salute is a Bernie Sanders activist." That Tweet then immediately went viral among the Trumpian Twitterers. It also quickly caught the attention of more sane individuals, who fact-checked and replied to Rainforth. By 6:55AM, Rainforth had crowingly admiited he'd made the whole thing up.

The left lies all the time. And they win elections because of their lies. We shouldn't fight fire? ...I grew up on the streets. Fighting fair never worked. ...I love fighting. I love fighting dirty even more.

However, at 5:02AM our buddy Supreme Dark Lord @voxday had screengrabbed (and likely Photoshopped) a different web iteration of Boulger's photo and Tweeted it out with the text, "The 'Trump Nazi' is Portia Boulger, who runs the Women for Bernie Sanders Twitter account. It's another media plant." As if it was his unique discovery, not something he'd copped from another Trumper-Twit.

I don't do Twitter, and am not sure exactly how it works, but I gather you can direct a Tweet to a list of other specific users, so that it shows up in their feeds (is that right?), and among the Twits the blithely mendacious dipsh!t tweeted his 'outing' of Boulger to was one Donald Trump Jr. In any event, at 10:12AM Jr. Tweeted a screencap of the Supreme Dark Lord's post with his own comment; "Big surprise. However the media will never run with this." Then, at 10:14AM, Jr. replied to a Tweet at him and BigDonald of the photo of Peterson's salute that had been accompanied by the comment "here are your Supporters. Simple minded bigots and racists" with the retort "apparently you don't read the news. She runs Bernie Sander's women for Bernie site. It's all staged."

Among other Twitterers who reposted a screengrab of The Supreme Dark Lord's photo 'comparison' of Boulger and the Trib photo of Peterson was actor-and-MENSA-dude Jimmy Woods: "So called #Trump 'Nazi' is a #Bernie Sanders agitator/operative?" Which Don Jr. then re-Tweeted, along with apparently some 2.5K other Twits.

Sometime later this monrning, Jr.'s Twitting came to the attention of New Republic editor Jeet Heer, who recognized the @voxday nym and created a TNR 'Minutes' blog post with the lead "Following in his father’s footsteps, Donald Trump Jr. retweeted a white supremacist." The body of the text IDs Vox as Theodore Beale and quotes from "a mini-anthology of Beale’s greatest hits of "racist, sexist, and homophobic hate speech" complied on Rationalwiki.org.

Olivia Nuzzi of The Daily Beast had also spotted Don Jr.'s Tweet and "reached Boulger by phone a few minutes after Donald Trump Jr. tweeted her photo". Boulger told Nuzzi that she's had short hair for some time, and was in Chillicothe last night making calls for Sanders from the IBEW union hall. Nuzzi's article, – headline "Trump Jr. Smears 63-Year-Old Bernie Supporter as Nazi"; subject kicker "Like Father, Like Son"; sub-head "The Donald's eldest child lied this weekend, claiming Nazi-saluting Trump supporter Birgitt Peterson was actually a Bernie fan in disguise." – went out on the Daily Beast AM feed this morning. In it, Nuzzi wrote: "The New Republic's Jeet Heer... reported that the user who Trump Jr. got the photo from, @voxday, is a white supremacist."*

Weell, that got Bealey up in high dudgeon, tweeting and emailing and blogging outrage that he would be labeled a white supremacist:

You are calling an American Indian - and the great-grandson of a Mexican revolutionary - a "white supremacist." Retract. Now.

Nuzzi retracted nothing, but amended the text to include Beale's objection, as quoted above, though she does not identify him in any way other than " Twitter user @voxday".
______

Being dubious about the Supreme Dipsh!t's assertion that he's "an American Indian", (you don't use the I-word these days unless you're in AIM), I Googled. Seems Vox's brother did a genetic test in 2014 that revealed a Native bloodline on his mother's side (how does he think that counts?), but Vox didn't reveal a percentage or identify a tribe. Google reveals almost no information about Vox's mom Rebecca, other than that she divorced his millionaire dad after 40 years of marriage when he went full wacko with the 'Tax Protestor" thing, and ratted out where his assets were hid to the Feds. Yeah, I'm sure Vox is full of love and respect for her heritage, whatever it is. (There's an entry on RationalWiki:Talk that identifies his mom as Peruvian, but that was entered by a user who subsequently got banned and scrubbed for picking fights...)

Thus, I provisionally conclude that Beale is a Trump Indian, in the sense of Trump University, Trump Steaks, Trump Magazine, etc. etc., and bemoan that Olivia Nuzzi published his identity trolling vomitus.
____
* Nuzzi did not trace back the Tweets far enough to identify Rainforth as the source of the false ID of Boulger, She wrote "Twitter user @new_debis, who uses the hashtag #AlwaysTrump, posted Boulger’s picture", which is true but misleading, as @new_debis was re-posting Rainforth's original accusation.

Sadmar @293:
Competition for the title of "Stupidest Man on the Internet" is getting tougher and tougher.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 13 Mar 2016 #permalink