So far today, I have received 39 pieces of personal hate mail of varying degrees of literacy, all because I was rude to a cracker. Four of them have included death threats, a personal one day record. Thirty-four of them have demanded that I be fired. Twenty-five of them have told me to desecrate a copy of the Koran, instead, or in some similar way offend Muslims, because — in a multiplicity of ironic cluelessness — apparently only some religious icons must be protected, and I would only offend Catholics because they are all so nice that none of them would wish me harm. I even have one email that says I should be fired, that the author would like to kill me, and that I only criticize because Catholics are so gentle and kind.
Oh, and of course, the university president's office has also received lots of mail demanding my immediate ouster (keep in mind, though…Catholics are no threat to anyone at all.) I don't know how much, but since Donohue published the president's email address and not mine, I imagine it's much greater than what I've seen. Those lovely Dark Age fanatics at the Catholic League have started a write-in campaign to start up an inquisition.
So no poll-crashing today. Instead, I would appreciate it if you would write a short note to President Robert Bruininks in support (he's going to hate me for this). I have to ask for a few constraints, though: only do so if you are willing to sign a real name to it — most of the complaint mail I'm getting uses fake names, making it much less persuasive — and that, unlike the religious screeds I'm seeing, you take the time to proofread and send him something that at least looks like a high school graduate wrote it, which will put you way above the level of the hate mail. Be polite and rational, too!
If you really want to impress, send him regular mail at this address:
President Robert H. Bruininks
202 Morrill Hall
100 Church Street S.E.
University of Minnesota
Minneapolis, MN 55455
Bill Donohue has a loud, braying voice, and he's already trying to stir up a witch hunt. We need a counter-campaign from the secular community.
Whoa, this one is getting heavy traffic and we need to close it down and reroute. Continue the discussion here, if you must.
As per tristero ...
My (surface mail) letter to your president begins this:
Good Luck, PZ. Hope it all amounts to a pimple on an an elephant's butt.
PS. I left off the bit about my being a non-practicing Catholic. It's really none of your president's business, is it? ;-)
I'm very disturbed to hear about this intolerance toward Catholics. Please, tell me who is trying to get these Catholics fired from their jobs for expressing their opinions. I must know who the horrible intolerant people are who are doing this to them. Catholics should be able to freely express their thoughts without worrying about receiving death threats or having their livelihoods jeopardized.
Thanks for this information in advance.
Sent. I couldn't get too serious about it.
Religious terrorists at Morris campus
Dear Dr. Bruininks:
Professor PZ Myers has been threatened with death for contemplating cracker abuse. Cracker abuse is common and I myself often buy them at stores and eat them, mostly Ritz, Cheez-it, Sociable, and soda crackers.
It is claimed by some people that crackers are really Jesus. They don't look remotely like Jesus. And it seems to me that the omnipotent creator of the universe could take care of itself even if it looked like a mundane cracker.
Ignore the good Christians that are threatening to kill Myers. They know not what they do as they haven't bothered to understand their own religion past the point of "Jesus equals crackers". In fact, you might want to increase the police security at Morris unless you want some pathetic headlines for U. of Minnesota, "Professor killed by religious terrorists over crackers."
The Catholic League is just an angry, insane old man named Bill Donohue and some lunatic fringers who like to threaten people anonymously. My organization, The Universe Catholic Justice and Truth League is much more influential even if it consists of a few people and two cats.
redacted name
The Universe Catholic Justice and Truth League
Hey PZ,
I'll try to write up a letter and send it to the president later. I am currently heading out for work, so I just wanted to post my support before I left.
#493: "Time doesn't allow for me to present the many reasonable explanations for the existence of God."
Reasonable explanations for the existence of a magical fairy who hides in the clouds? Let's have just one. Make sure it's reasonable. Of course you got nothing but your wishful thinking and your total ignorance of science.
"Why do you, personally, believe....that the alleged creator of the universe could in any way, shape, or form, be harmed as a result of the cracker being damaged?"
Those are good questions.
Then why don't you answer the question, mister? Do you think your magic man is worried about a worthless cracker?
My e-mail has been fired off. As others have said before, why be tolerant of other faiths if faith itself can't do that? If all of the Muslims, the Jewish, the atheists, the Buddhists, etc. are all ignorant fools who are all going to burn in Hell, where is the respect towards others' religious beliefs on their end?
No, the desire is still there. It's just that some people fought back the church, and now they can't get away with it. Looking at their behavior over the last two days, there's no doubt in my mind that they'd go right back to burning heretics if they could get away with it.
Stephen M - Can you let me know how you picked the right religion?
Also, Aquinas may have said: "To disparage the dictate of reason is equivalent to contemning the command of God."
But can you find me an equivalent passage from the Bible?
Anyway, why are people so upset about a missing cracker? As Mathew 5.4 says: "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted." Is it that their comfort food is crackers?
"Thankfully, whether one believes in God for a lifetime or takes a lifetime to believe, the eternal reward is the same."
Well, that's certainly true enough.
Four out of 39 emails containing death threats... that's strikingly high. Does that mean that just over 10% of members of the Catholic League are wannabe homicidal maniacs? Should I have not asked that question?
I don't see how my computer can possibly see inside of your own mind.
If you've written about this specifically somewhere in great and painstaking detail on the web, perhaps you could have the caritas to post the link?
Dear Bob Bruininks,
I betcha right about now PZ wishes he had insulted some libertarians. Apparently he believes they worship the dollar so I expect he'll be threatening to desecrate one any minute. Myers believes that libertarians believe that the dollar bill actually turns into the body of Washington when you spend it on crackers or something.
"I think the institutionalized selfishness, petty small-mindedness, and bourgeois values run amuck of the libertarians represent the worst of America"
Spoken like a true Marxist.
Wow PZ!
You have more supporters here than we had Minutemen at the battles of Concord & Lexington.
A cracker is the physical body of Christ? - Religions are deserving targets for mockery. It's just a God-Damned cracker!
so....Any TAM6 attendees here? LOL
PZ...to quote Steve Miller(unfortunatly not on the list of steves)....
Keep on rockin me baby
I added my e-mail. Keep up the good work PZ. You speak for millions of us.
CJO wrote: "Yes, we get this, @sO...."
Censorship! I called you an asshole.
Blessed are you when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake: Be glad and rejoice for your reward is very great in heaven. For so they persecuted the prophets that were before you. - Matthew 5:11-12
Yes, when you're spouting bat-shit insanity, I'm sure it's comforting to have a clause that says, in essence, "that most people think you're bat-shit insane is just further proof of how right you are."
Lastly, I apologize for being a "concern troll." Apparently, I've violated blog etiquette.
Nah, you're just the old-fashioned kind. You're also a godbot, which is further grounds for dungeon residency, but what with the magic-cracker dust-up, I think we're pretty much desensitized.
I sent mine:
Mr. Bruininks, I'm writing to you because I am very concerned about the hate mail coming from religious groups towards scientists. PZ Myers and other like him have spent their life in search for truths and answers to life's basic questions. If it were not for people like him, we would still be living in huts with no TV's, Cell phones or computers. Science is for everyone's benefit, the hate that is coming from religion is only causing more people to question what they truly believe. Put an end to this hate, it will only turn against people like Bill Donohue.
I most certainly did not.
And for that matter, I am perfectly capable of being deceptive, and indeed, I am all of the time.
To: --PatF in Madison #430
My father, also an ex-catholic and an active atheist, came up with the idea of trying to get former catholics turned non-believers to get themselves ex-communicated and bogged about it today here: http://phildoubet.blogspot.com/2008/07/excommunicated.html
I don't know if they'd really willingly let you go, but it's a funny idea and worth a shot. The key to getting anything, even getting kicked out of the church for good, is to keep trying!
Dave Mueller, want to try for the trifecta?
Are all historians lying when they say that cracker==jeebus was first formally established as a requirement of doctrine by Pope Innocent No. 3 at the 4th Lateran Council in 1215 A.D.?
es·tab·lish [i-stab-lish]
-verb (used with object)
...
5.to bring about permanently: to establish order.
6.to enact, appoint, or ordain for permanence, as a law; fix unalterably.
I would happily point out the the Catholic league has no official affiliation with the Catholic Church.
Cheezits wrote: "Why do they believe something so truly, really, substantially ridiculous?"
Because God, who can neither deceive nor be deceived, said so.
And you believe *that* ridiculous thing because...? Because the church says so. However, the church is full of crap. This can hardly be the first time you've heard of it.
People keep whining that Myers should pleasepleaseplease don't do this deeply terrible thing as it would deeply offend the deeply held beliefs of deeply devout Catholics as if they were two-year-olds or something. I know they had this nonsense force-fed to them when they were too young to defend themselves. But now that they are supposedly adults, freely choosing to continue believing something stupid, they have no excuse. They choose to be offended.
CDV, in case you didn't notice, you just got PWNED by Moses. Lol!
"PZ Myers wrote: "Mr Majewski, you obviously don't know me at all well. You have just convinced me that I must commit sacrilege, since I oppose the whole nonsensical notion of a 'profoundly held religious belief'."
If you do, I can only hope that some day you will have a change of heart. Luckily, God is merciful, forgives all who seek His forgiveness, and doesn't hold our past transgressions against us. I'm pulling for you."
PZ doesn't believe in God, hence your implied hell threats are lost on him. Spend more time worrying about your own salvation if that is hwta you believe, and less time worrying about the salvation of non-believers.
All religions are ridiculous, but the Catholics have managed to raise ridiculousness to an art form.
Hostgate is just one more nail in the absurd coffin that is modern Catholicism.
The day when vast swaths of the educated public could be deceived by a bunch of loons who wear pointy hats and pretend to hold the inside scoop on a bunch of fairy tales are gone FOREVER.
This stuff is not complicated. Thank goodness PZ refuses to make it complicated and also refuses to back down when the loons feel that their precious stupidity is being threatened.
If more educators and politicians had the guts to do what PZ does, our country's intelligence-destroying religious insanity would get better a whole lot faster.
"Hollywood is controlled by secular Jews who hate Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular." --Bill Donahue http://mediamatters.org/items/200412210001
People here think that believing that God could make Himself present in a piece of bread is ridiculous. Well, it's no more ridiculous than believing that God exists. If God exists, of course He could do that.
You know what's really ridiculous? Not believing in God because you can't prove it using science! Science is the study of the physical universe. God, by definition, if He exists, is the creator of the Universe, and thus outside of the universe. It's a complete misapplication of a very valuable tool.
I will just say this. Those of you who really WANT to know if there is a God, just ask Him. Try the unbelievers prayer. "God, if you exist, make yourself known to me"
That's it. Try it, and if you really WANT to know, you will find out. Most of you, in your heart of hearts, probably don't WANT to know that God exists. The real reason for disbelief is usually involvement in moral evil; thus a motivation to disbelieve. If you REALLY want to know, and only God knows this, then He will answer. He respects our free will.
Some Catholics want to murder the student who didn't eat a cracker. Other Catholics look forward to his torture in hell for trillions of years. Not eating the cracker was a mortal sin. The punishment is torture. Eternal torture.
There's no difference at all between Catholics and Muslim terrorists. Both are equally insane and equally immoral.
I don't think that PZ cares if you call him a jerk, to be honest, and nor do I. That wasn't the point.
If you would hurt the feelings of others when you believe that it is necessary, whether you agree with PZ on this one or not, you should at least support his right to do so when he also feels that it is necessary. And I have no doubt that you do. It just didn't come across that way.
You said that you weren't going to send a letter of support -- which, of course, is your right -- but it's not meant to indicate that you support PZ's every action, it's meant to indicate that you support his right to say as he wishes -- within reason, of course.
By refusing to do so, and by saying, or at least implying, that it was precisely because he would be hurting people that are close to you, the only thing that I can reasonably conclude is that you only support his right to free speech when it is something that you approve of. And that, in my humble opinion, is hypocritical.
The whole point of being purposely offensive, at times, remembering that someone, somewhere is offended by the fact that I am even breathing, is to move the Overton window to the point where people are not offended by the most ridiculous of things. It is plainly obvious that allowing offense to be taken for the slightest oversight, and never challenging so-called sacred beliefs, is a strategy that can only lead to the kind of death threats and abuse that we have seen in this instance. That is why I support PZ Myers, not because I necessarily always agree with him.
You just can't seem to get through a post without saying something really stupid, can you? It was you, not I, that was dishing out self-righteous indignation. After all, what could be more self-righteous than essentially admitting that you can't support an individuals right to free speech because you don't agree with them on that particular issue? Honestly.
My vote for this month's Molly goes to raven #248
Letter written, will be stamped and sent tomorrow. This whole kerfluffle boggles the mind.
The first historical mention of transubstantiation known is in the 4th century, in the writings of Cyril of Jerusalem.
There is no evidence that anyone had this loonie Jeebus==cracker idea before Cyril, much less that they were crazy enough to write it down or tell anyone if they did.
Not exactly. The doctrine was invented post-facto from parts of the bible they liked and arose, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia:
So, while 1215 might seem like the wrong date. It's the date it became "the thing." Just like Jesus was not necessarily considered a divine being until it was approved in the 4th Century. Or the Doctrine of the Trinity that wasn't in the original scriptures, but was added into the scriptures at a later by one of the many Christian factions struggling for doctrinal supremacy. (Not that you'd even have a clue to the history of the bible and it's changes.)
The lesson I'm really teaching, however, is that when dealing with atheists, never assume they can't call you on your ignorance. And even if they don't have all the tenants of your sub-set down, they know where to get the information.
Further, many, such as myself, trained - lay or formal - for careers in our religion. We're not talking some silly Sunday bible stories from the narrow range of books actually taught and interpreted in most denominations. But the full Monty, including the errors and contradictions.
And we, frequently, come from very religious backgrounds. For example, my great-great grandfather was a bishop in an Anabaptist faith. My father a church secretary in a hybrid faith.
This environment greatly influenced me and I was ordained and working hard at moving up the hierarchy when my religious education veered, accidentally, into non-approved works because I was trying to do a "bang-up job" on a paper. It was a one-year crash-and-burn as I went from my (hardcore) sub-sect to general Christianity as I tried over a score of various sects to Judaism and then to atheism as the sweater of belief continued to unravel to the forces of reality.
You grok it? We're not all as ignorant as you.
"You know what's really ridiculous? Not believing in God because you can't prove it using science! Science is the study of the physical universe. God, by definition, if He exists, is the creator of the Universe, and thus outside of the universe."
So, Dave, I take it you believe in Zeus also, given the same "logic" used...
From #528: Try the unbelievers prayer. "God, if you exist, make yourself known to me"
Wow. Total hopeless breathtaking stupidity.
How, Dave Mueller, is the sky fairy going to make itself known to anyone?
I'm sorry, but you're way beyond insane.
To all the religious posters here crying about how we should be more 'tolerant' of their practices, you might want to step outside your own tiny bubble for a second and just think about what it would mean if we were to avoid saying and doing things that offend beliefs.
Technically, if we're going to force everyone to 'respect' the beliefs of all the religious, we're going to have to make some serious lifestyle adjustments.
Some things that one or more religions disapprove of: pork, shellfish, meat of animals not killed in a certain way, meat of any kind, performing any sort of activity on the sabbath, swearing, alcohol, cigarettes, caffeine, hallucinogenic drugs, Christmas & birthday presents, gambling, women not wearing head-to-toe clothing outside the house, reading non-religious books, women driving, women voting, women working, depicting their relgious figures in any way...
Should i go on?
Wrote in. Used my real name, unlike here or when I write for ATA. Dunno whether or not international support helps, and a Brisbanite staying in DC is an even trickier case. Don't care. This must be addressed.
PZ - I just sent you a copy of a letter of support I sent earlier to the university. And I'm not so creative, so I'll just 2nd the "life threat" from #151.
And Cheese Whiz? No! Put some genuine New York State Cheddar on the cracker. (I know, you don't intend to eat one - good. So put the cheddar on a triscuit.)
OK, so this retired science teacher has one more comment for PZ.
Keep up the good work
Long time reader, first time poster.
I've been reading Pharyngula for years, and I owe PZ at least a letter of support. So there, email sent.
SENT...
Dear President Bruininks,
I am writing to urge your continued support of Professor PZ Myers, and of academic freedom and free speech.
Professor Myers writes a controversial blog called "Pharyngula." A recent blog post about the desecration of communion wafers has gotten the attention of Bill Donohue at the Catholic league. As such, Catholics have been asked to write to the university to demand that the Professor Myers be reprimanded or fired for his post. Since the blog post, he has received numerous hate mail, and at least four death threats.
Although I do not agree with everything that Professor Myers writes, he is the voice of many who feel that they have none, including me. It is obvious that Professor Myers is not the official voice of the university, yet the fact that he has been allowed to express his personal beliefs openly and honestly is a credit to the university, and something which is rare on today's college campuses.
To close, I wish to reiterate a part of the university's mission statement which I hope will not be forgotten in this situation. It reads, "In all of its activities, the University strives to sustain an open exchange of ideas in an environment that embodies the values of academic freedom..."
Thank you for your time.
I'm glad I could do something to show my support for PZ. Here's what I sent. I guess it's a bit dramatic, but I think it gets the point across (darn, I should have triple-checked it):
President Bruininks,
It has been brought to my attention that a few, but loud, people have been conspiring to silence Mr. PZ Myers by attempting to persuade you to exert your influence. I am sure you are very well aware of the events that led to this, so I will not waste your time describing them to you. Instead, I simply wish to express my full support for Mr. Myers, as well as my hope that you will publicly and decidedly defend his right to express his opinions on his blog. I am a very strong believer in free speech and academic freedom, and I am appalled by the primitive and dishonest tactics used by his opponents to silence him. I believe that such schemes should have no place in a free and fair society dedicated to the betterment of humanity.
Thank you.
Sincerely,
(me)
To all who have been offended by PZ Myers:
Why would the desecration of the "Body of Christ" offend you? Should it not be a greater insult and offence to your God/Lord? Why would you not sit back silently with glee and revel with the thought of your imaginary friend burning those who would desecrate the "Body of Christ"? Maybe your imaginary friend is not so powerful; hence, requires you to do his bidding? Maybe your imaginary friend is actually in your head? Maybe?
"The doctrine was invented post-facto from parts of the bible they liked and arose..."
Wait... wait... so you're saying that something in a religion is actually crap made up by PEOPLE?
;)
"Those of you who really WANT to know if there is a God, just ask Him."
I wonder if god exists. I think I'll go ask him!
What's wrong with this picture?
I always thought the unbelievers' prayer was, "Save me from the people who would save us from ourselves."
So I was wondering, how many of these wafers are being consumed at any one time? According to the venerable fount of all arcane wisdom (Wikipedia) there were approximately 77 million people in the US who professed a Catholic faith in 2003. Some of these don't get to church every Sunday, so let's say on any Sunday, 60 million get to church and celebrate communion. There are three time zones in the US, so within any single time zone, 20 million catholics are celebrating communion at roughly the same time. According to
http://www.churchpartner.com/store/customer/product-1024.html
500 communion wafer weigh 1 lb. So 40,000 lb of communion wafers are being consumed at any one time. If all of these represent the body of Christ, then may I respectfully suggest, Christ has a severe weight problem and should go on a diet as soon as possible. That blood the Catholics are drinking cannot be very healthy and must contain all sorts of nasty things associated with the grossly overweight. Of course, this calculation provides a lower bound on the mass of Christ since it neglects the Catholics in South America.
When Jerry Falwell kicked the bucket, Hitchens said "If you gave Falwell an enema he could be buried in a matchbox." I guess if you gave Bill Donohue an enema, you'd wind up with a cracker.
Just like Jeebus.
I EAT YOUR JESUS! (slurps) I eat him up!
/Daniel Plainview>
I noted this from a snippet of an article posted above.
"The Catholic League, a civil rights group..."
Civil rights group? How can they be considered any more than a collection of unprincipled liars?
Supportive email sent to Mr. Bruininks. Way to marshal the forces of darkness on your behalf, PZ!
I would not.
One of the few things you got right. But note that this conflicts with your point about Me making Myself a piece of bread.
In point of fact, I am not capable of performing the logically impossible, and corporeality logically conflicts with My transcendent nature.
Maybe I will, maybe I won't. I'm not that predictable.
I don't respect anything about humans at all. You're all weak, foolish, and terribly, terribly gullible.
Email sent
Sent it with my real name several hours before you even posted this request.
#521, it is true that Eucharistic teaching was not defined by a council until 1215, but that's simply because it was never doubted by anyone within the Church up until that point. Councils tend to center on issues that are under dispute. Issues that no one disputes tend not to be addressed. For example, I wouldn't be surprised if it has never been defined dogmatically that God exists.
But if you read Christian writings for the first 1000 years, you will find the Eucharist universally attested to. Here are just a few examples:
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/eucharist-q.html
Maybe you shouldn't have been an attention whoring cunt? I'm an atheist and you took their communion wafer to cause this exact situation. So fuck off and get fired for being a whiny little bitch.
I have no time to read all the comments here, so I don;t know if anyone has made this observation or not. What I find most curious here is that these outraged Catholics are so bonkers over the perceived 'crime of hate' committed against their wafer-thin Christ by unbelievers, yet I have not seen anything like the outrage over the idea that convicted child molester priests continue to ingest the supposed flesh of their "savior". Where is their Papa's wrath? Why are these priests shuttled about, often sub rosa, and sheltered from consequences more dire than a tch-tch-tch? Why are we not hearing, en masse, an outcry too loud to be ignored from these people? Surely it is a hell of a lot more offensive to their deity, right: a sanctified representative of their "Holy Church" raping an innocent child vs. a few non-Catholics spoiling an ostensibly transubstantiated communion wafer?
I laff. Of course it's not. As a survivor of severe (though non-sexual) abuse by several priests at a well-respected bastion of Catholic mis-education, Damien High School, I can tell you what side their host is buttered on. The Catholics have a long tradition, much like the Protestants do, much like the Muslims do, of going after the "infidels" they find threatening. They never seem to get the gist or hear the call to self-reflection of strong criticism (with delivery as churlish as an ogre's or meek as a church mouse's); "Burn the heretic/witch/infidel/Auslander!" is their automatic refrain, and only merely fortunate are we who live in an age when they are restrained by secular laws from so doing.
Those Catholics (and other religionists) who feel that the treatment here is too harsh or unwarranted ought to consider the sickening actions committed by their own leaders--done in secret, hidden from the watchful eyes of those who would not stand for it, and blazoned with a frightful, inhuman disregard for the mental health of those abused in whatever fashion--before the roughneck shenanigans committed (in the open and mostly in print, you'll notice) by those who don't share their beliefs.
Until you are ready to genuinely purge yourselves of those who would prey on kids, please understand that I, for one, am going to continue to consider you sick, ignorant, shrill, stupid fucks not worthy of my respect.
Go worry your beads, the lot of you, if, that is, you're not too busy writing death threats or apoplectic screeds or offended comments against those who don't pretend once a week to be meek and mild, forgiving and full of love.
I tried that when I was in third grade. That's also when I decided he was fake.
Dave Mueller said:
Er, if God is present inside of the cracker, which is obviously part of this universe, is that not available to be investigated by science?
You really shouldn't have said that, should you? You've just destroyed your whole argument.
So, how do you propose that God interacts with the universe if, by definition, He is outside of it, and therefore, not able to be investigated? You haven't thought this through, have you? And if there is no way for us to ever be able to detect God, is that not even slightly suggestive that He either doesn't exist, or that He doesn't give a rats ass about us and is off doing other things? Hmmn.
Dave Mueller said:
What happens if Allah responds as the billion and a half Muslims believe? And how do you know that you aren't talking to Allah?
And you think that we are involved in moral evil? Well, fuck you very much!
Anyway, you're in exactly the same position as we are concerning morality. Plato showed more than 2000 years ago that a morality based on the "divine command theory" is fatally flawed, and it has troubled philosophers and theologians ever since.
The Euthyphro dilemma:
In other words, you're screwed if you think that it's possible to derive morality from God!
Also, how do you objectively decide between all of the competing accounts of morality, not just between all of the various religions, but also within the same religion? By doing so, aren't you essentially just choosing which account that you would like to follow?
And what do you do about the thousands of modern moral dilemma's that are not not mentioned in the bible?
Not easy is it, Mr Mueller?
I tried that several times earlier in my life. I never got an answer.
Does the violence proposed against PZ approach the level for prosecution under RICO (Racketeering) or even "terrorism" as formally defined by Homelland Security?
Dave Mueller wrote:
They shriek at them, pretend they know what God has said about them, and then pass laws banning the behavior which offends them.
#534, no I don't believe in Zeus. My point was that science is not the correct tool to use to determine whether God exists.
#535, so Bob, you think that God, if He exists, would be unable to make Himself known to anyone? Not much of a God if He can't even do that much. Even I can do that.
Super, you're a moron.
Go back to the beginning of the thread and read the comments. PZ has taken nothing; all he does done is, at worse, incite people to take crackers under false pretences.
I'll be sending out a letter via snail mail tomorrow.
"Because God, who can neither deceive nor be deceived, said so."
For a hypothetical God just like the one you believe in, with the one difference that he likes deception, deceiving would be total child's play. In fact, he's deceiving you right now. That feeling? The one that makes you think I'm just being a sophist? That's God, deceiving you, but leaving just a little bit of doubt so he can watch you squirm. He's a weird dude. Boy, it's a good thing I don't have to corroborate this just-so story with anything any more than you do.
"Time doesn't allow for me to present the many reasonable explanations for the existence of God."
Fermat tried to pull that once. The only difference is that what he was proposing was true and in principle falsifiable, and partial results were demonstrated to that effect up until the general proof 300-some years later.
But if you really have - not just the first ever, but the first several ever - demonstration of the existence of God in the history of humanity, you should tell us, because to do otherwise would be to damn billions to Hell through inaction, and I know you're too compassionate for that. Unless you're bluffing.
"Faith is a gift offered freely by God to everyone."
So is the little plastic roach poison bin thingy on the floor in my bathroom. And it gets a lot of takers!
"He calls each one of us by name to cooperate with his grace. The choice whether to do so is ours. Thankfully, whether one believes in God for a lifetime or takes a lifetime to believe, the eternal reward is the same."
Actually, only Christians go to Hell, and everyone else goes to Heaven, and there's no way anyone could ever disprove that. God is just like what you think, with that one exception. He's a trickster! Where does this put the status of Pascal's Wager now?
Heh. I actually did this before I saw the post because Bill Donahue is big screaming idiot and its time he gets put in his place before he dies and never gets to meet his child-raping skydaddy.
Also when did the post name change? Fracking cracker?
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/its_a_goddamned_cracker.php
That's kinda the point, isn't it?
Look, if I made Myself known to everyone, in the exact same way, being very clear and direct and unambiguous, there would be no religious disputes whatsoever.
Obviously, I love disputes, so I only speak directly to you humans at very rare intervals, and I say conflicting things, and then shut up when asked to explain or clarify.
That's because My greatest joy is watching you scream at each other and hit each other with sticks and rocks. It's very funny.
My letter, which I will send via snail mail tomorrow:
"Dear President Bruininks:
"I write on behalf of PZ Myers, a biologist and associate professor at your university, who also maintains the popular science blog Pharyngula. He has become the target of criticism from the religious right because he wrote a short blog post pointing out that pieces of unleavened bread, consecrated by Catholic priests, in fact remain pieces of unleavened bread. I understand that the Catholic League is sponsoring an email campaign to pressure your office to take action against him. Naturally, I trust that the tenure system in place at your university will work in defending his position against these unreasonable attacks.
"Nevertheless, I want to express my solidarity. As an aspiring academic, I understand that scholarship is anchored in dissent. Every thesis, every paper, every monograph worth reading, is a calculated rebellion against standard assumptions and prevailing orthodoxy. I see no reason to confine this basic skepticisim to scholarly journals. In promulgating the doctrine of transubstantiation, the Catholic Church makes a claim about reality that is subject to scrutiny, as are all other claims about reality. Unfortunately, evidence does not favor the theory of transubstantiation, and its advocates have had to advance their ideas through coercion, complaint, and email campaigns. Nothing could be more contrary to the spirit of academic inquiry.
"Pharyngula has become an important part of academic culture. Myers's witty and irreverent posts are widely cited and discussed, and can only bring greater credit and regard to your university. I would love to hear you say as much in public."
Here's my email:
Dear Sir,
Just a short note. No threats. No outrage. No vitriol.
P.Z. Meyers is a wonderful teacher.
I'm 48 years old. I was unable to attend college. In high school I gave science about as much thought as I did to my parents. In short; Bad Student.
However, just by visiting Dr. Meyers' website, I've learned more about biology these last few months than I did my entire middle-school thru high school career.
I am also an atheist and have come to hold this brave educator in high regard for the ridicule and derision that he holds towards bigoted hypocrites.
If you read any of his posts, and I'm sure you have, you can safely say that P.Z. has never once threatened the lives of these peaceful warriors for god. (although HE has been threatened with his life and lively hood)
He has merely pointed out the hypocritical positions that they hold and the fraud in which they participate every time they ask for money in the name of their delusional world-view and in then in the next breath foment hatred, advocate exclusion and deny people of all religions, color, creed and beliefs (including non-believers) their civil rights.
So, if Bill Donohue is upset and you are receiving threats like Dr. Meyers is - and I suggest you see these vile musings - why don't we do what is best in situations like this............ ignore these idiots. They will just fade away. The moment you give these people any quarter, they will crank up the phones, raise that cash, pray for you in public, all the usual amusements. However, if you ignore them, well, you're no longer a money maker for them and they will peddle their wares with a new outrage next week.
Let them try to get legislation passed. The stupid law would be thrown. out. at. once. the moment it hits any court in the land. Trust me, they can't codify protection for themselves from RIDICULE!! The first amendment is very clear. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Just ignore these buffoons. They'll tire and move on. Their god is a loving god that will see to you burn in hell for all eternity if you don't fall on your knees and worship him. Oh, and he NEEEEEEDS MONEY!!!! Lot's of it.
Thank you.
Joseph T. Sampson
Overland Park, Kansas.
P. S.
I was born and raised in Northern Iowa............ Just in case you thought I was some eastern establishment know it all. I'm not.
Keep on fighting PZ!!!
You're doing one HELL of a job!!!
We all know you're definitely the VICTIM here in the battle against Donohue and those pesky CATHOLICS!!!
I can't wait until you write your book giving us the juicy details on this whole episode!!! When does your book tour start???? When are you going on your media PR campaign????
When can we expect you to collaborate with Cornell West on a RAP CD????? When will you actually TEACH some classes instead of grand standing and SHOW BOATING?????
You are obviously the GALILEO of our age!!! I don't use the word genius lightly, but you are a GENIUS!!!!! I haven't seen such witty satire since LENNY BRUCE!!!!
I just sent this email to bruin001@umn.edu
Dear President Robert H. Bruininks
PZ Myers has requested that the readers of his blog write to you to show their support for him, because you have been receiving lots of mail that's critical of PZ Myers, because of some cracker or something.
I've been a big fan of PZ and his Pharyngula blog for many years. Virtually everything I know about biology I learned from reading his blog. He is one of America's strongest defenders of science education. I bet he's the best biology professor in the history of your university. His students are incredibly lucky.
I noticed that a link to PZ's Pharyngula blog was removed from your university's website, probably because of some controversy about a worthless tasteless cracker. I hope you realize that crackers are really not that important, certainly not as important as the most visited science blog in America, and probably the most visited science blog in the world. I respectfully ask you to restore the link to Pharyngula on your university's website. Also, whatever PZ Myers is getting paid to work there, it couldn't possibly be enough. He should get a large salary increase as soon as possible.
Thanks very much.
(My name, address, email address)
Email sent.
Hope it helps.
Dave Mueller (#528),
"If you REALLY want to know, and only God knows this, then He will answer."
Yea verily, if you really, truly want to subjectively experience something badly enough, you will certainly experience it.
"He respects our free will."
Some deity somewhere may respect human free will, but 'taint the Christian one: Ephesians 1:4-7, for example.
Keep up the good work, PZ.
Bill Donahue said, "It is hard to think of anything more vile than to intentionally desecrate the Body of Christ."
I can - how about a Catholic priest sucking on the body of a little boy?
Dumb cracker.
Here is the email I sent to the University President (I'm an occasional reader of your blog, and I say, keep up the good work):
Dear President Bruininks,
I'm writing in support of PZ Myers, whose blog -- tho understandably offensive to some -- nevertheless serves an important twofold purpose. That purpose is, one, the fearless, humorous, and articulate repudiation of bigotry and idolatry (in the guise of religious dogma), and, two, the rational and logical defense of enlightened scientific inquiry, specifically in regards to defense of Darwinian evolutionary theory. I sincerely hope that you, and the University, take no action, formal or otherwise, to censure Prof. Myers.
Sincerely,
Greg Sidell MD
Bloomington IN
Again, you guys are showing monumentally poor judgment. Committing what many of the taxpayers--whose dollars are, after all, the ultimate support for the majority of scientific and academic institutions--would consider an open act of desecration is a move that should appeal only to the socially autistic, or the emotionally disturbed. Therefore, I can understand why it would be a popular idea on this blog. However, it angers me that you all care so little for the prestige of science that you would contemplate and support such a move. But go ahead and pile up ammo for use by the enemy. I feel little but disgrace to be associated with the likes of you in the public mind. You are, indeed, a pack of slavering, wretched fools.
"Maybe you shouldn't have been an attention whoring cunt? I'm an atheist and you took their communion wafer to cause this exact situation. So fuck off and get fired for being a whiny little bitch."
Wow, you're truly an idiot.
Eric, I wish I were as smart as you. Nice letter. That'll do it. Well done.
Then please do feel free to fuck off, Anand. See how easy that is?
When is he gong to TEACH instead of SHOW BOATING?????
P.Z. can multi-task. WIthout the caps-lock.
Paul,
I have no threats to make, because that is childish and excessive. I do think, however, that your comments were totally sophmoric and that you are a disgrace to the academy, where you are entrusted at a pretty darn good salary to nourish and cultivate young minds, not pollute them.
Respectfully,
Dennis
Professor Myers, there is a flaw in your logic. You have taken it upon yourself to viciously attack the deeply held - and completely harmless - beliefs of millions of Catholics because a handful of Catholics have behaved in a way you found to be distasteful. And death threats are absolutely disgusting as well as morally wrong by Catholic standards.
You have thus committed the fallacy of assuming that "all of those people are the same", or that all people of a particular group deserve to be mocked and attacked because some members of that group have acted wrongly.
This may seem like a minor mistake on your part, but keep in mind that such errors in rationality have resulted in some of the worst atrocities in history - segregation, slavery, the Holocaust, and every form of bigotry.
If you have a problem with Bill Donohue or a handful of Catholics, take it up with them. Do not involve every other Catholic by blasting us with what can only accurately be described as hate speech. That is not going to help matters any. Think about it. You will not gain converts with such hate. Neither will you end the controversy surrounding the mistreatment of the Eucharist; rather, you are exacerbating a bad situation.
I did indeed write a letter to President Bruininks, but it was not to say that you should be fired or punished. I simply suggested that his University conduct a study on hate speech and bigotry, to see if some forms of bigotry are socially acceptable while others are not, and learn exactly why that is.
We Catholics believe that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of God. Obviously we don't expect non-Catholics to believe that, but it's really very simple - if you aren't Catholic, don't attend the Catholic Mass. I wouldn't dream of attending a Muslim religious service and disrupting it, and neither is is appropriate for non-Catholics to disrupt Catholic services. It is clearly not conducive to mutual respect and brotherhood, and will only result in more anger, bitterness and hatred.
That's a new one, Anand. Enforcing compliance by hanging the sword of tax dollars over PZ's head? The fact that you're a concern troll just makes me laugh harder.
Science can survive this, the criticism of nonbelievers against a tiny but shrill and violent minority of Catholic fundamentalists. Let's keep things in perspective: we're not the guys sending death threats over the mistreatment of a cracker.
Anand, for someone so concerned with "the prestige of science," you are showing a remarkable disregard for the concept of "research." PZ didn't pull this whole fracas out of his ass; he was reacting to the actions of a certain group of people. I'll give you a search phrase to start with: "catholic death threat"
Dave Mueller asked: "so Bob, you think that God, if He exists, would be unable to make Himself known to anyone? Not much of a God if He can't even do that much. Even I can do that."
Never in history did your sky fairy make itself known to anyone. The idiots who claim God talked to them are called idiots for a good reason. They're batshit crazy, and it's pretty darn obvious you're crazy.
Why doesn't the Magic Man make its existence known? Because there isn't any magic man, you bloody moron. There's no Easter Bunny either, and your God has no more evidence than any magical rabbit.
Anand, Dopelganger, CDV, J, Super
....hhhmmmmmm, I've got the distinctly tainty smell of sockpuppetry in my nostrils.
William Bishop, you make the same point I would. As a recovering Wisconsin Synod Lutheran, I find it amazing the fact that they need to spend so much time protecting God and the gates of heaven. I'm figuring that God really is capable of defending his own body and gates. If he want's to smite someone for blasphemous behavior, I don't think he needs the help of zealots.
Okay, I realize it's a typo, but what could be a better name for a death cult's favorite cracker than Death Treats?
Death Treats- 100% dead Jesus and now gluten-free! (part of this nutritious breakfast).
"I feel little but disgrace to be associated with the likes of you in the public mind."
Well, then go fuck yourself Anand.
I can't believe that these whiny ass jesus trolls are STILL crying over their damn cracker. It's really a twofer if you think about it. They get exposed as violent zealots with the whole "cracker gate" thing, then the various rank and file zealots go and expose their idiocy by the boat load. It takes a pretty brain damaged person to make half veiled death threats while calling other people "cunts" and then cry about the "vile and violent atheists". lol
To the asshole Anand, how many names have you been using on this thread?
John Lewandoski wrote:
Emphasis mine. I suspect those who've died because of sectarian violence, witch-burnings, forced conversions and from preventable diseases from methods opposed by Catholicism would disagree with you.
I'd be curious if, out of all the e-mails, PZ has received any words of encouragement from Baptist fundamentalist types.
It occurred to me (As I compose my email to President Robert Bruininks) that there must be more that we can do to in support of PZ. At the most I would like to propose a counter campaign, an email barrage sent to the Catholic League from supporters of PZ. Unfortunately, they don't seem to have an email address on their web site . . . they do have a fax number though: Fax: (212) 371-3394
It seems unfair that the forum for this skirmish should be fought in the inbox of a university president and not in the inbox of the Catholic League. We should convince them of our support for PZ.
If anyone has any suggestions on this that would be great!
any way,
kick ass, PZ!!!
Well one downside of all this mischief is the unfortunate corruption of the great oracle Wikipedia. Starts out:
What made me guffaw though was the italicized note above:
Good times.
#583
The only reason there is any situation is because a bunch of alleged adults are upset about a cracker they think has something magical done to it. If catholics had a shred of decency in regards to their alleged beliefs they would put people first but it is rather obvious that is not happening.
Look it's simple, if it's real it's real no matter who is there. If this cracker makessome transformation one need not believe in it to see the occurrence. Rendering it to the land of belief shows in essense your cracker remains just a cracker and you like to play make believe.
That being said why should such a thing be respected. Do yourespect scientologists beliefs? Why should such bizarre and obviously untrue beliefs be respected just because?
You free to have the belief but it is also more than allowable to say it's baloney and treat it as such. Unless you live in a bubble I don't see alot of respect for other beliefs coming from the RCC.
There are actualy websites where you can order these crackers in bulk. Apperently, they have white or wheat depending on how you'd like to taste the lord. What might be fun for everyone is getting those saucer waffers with the little candy beads on the inside.
Anand, if PZ had mocked a different religion (let's go with the one that says earth is resting on an elephant named Maha-pudma (which is resting on a tortoise named Chukwa) would you have been as upset? What if he claimed he was going to steal all of the elephant and tortoise food causing calamities of extreme proportions?
Accepting a wafer disrupts the service?
Mueller: HAHA! Are you serious?!? Your arguement boils down to "other people believed in god before you lived, so why are you too good for it?" Let me ask you this, genius; Do you think you're smarter than Confucius? He believed in the ancient Chinese pantheon and that showing proper respect to ones parents and peers was more important than worship; why don't you?
Do you think you're smarter than Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle? They all worshiped members of the Greek Pantheon, but obviously you're stuck in some extended adolescence because you worship this fancy-schmancy Dionysus rip-off.
Do you think you're smarter than Newton? He believed in Alchemy, but I guess you're TOO GOOD for transmutation, aren't you, you arrogant ass, even though smarter people than you believed in it.
Arguing any point from the general authority of other, dead, people, is probably the most pathetic, laughable, and worthless rhetorical bulwark a person can fall back on. If such arguments carried even a farthing of merit, then we citizens over here in the U.S. would just have to throw up our hands and abandon democracy because I doubt many of us understood the practicalities and theory of politics better than Cardinal Richelieu, and he believed in absolute monarchy!
I could go on pulling every single historical figure you don't agree with out of my rear end as examples, but someone of your limited ability really isn't worth anymore of my time.
Isnt the catholic league just donohue?
yeah i thought so.
welcome to pharyngula Mr donohue,you and all your sock puppets:)
Mueller @ 528 -
"People here think that believing that God could make Himself present in a piece of bread is ridiculous."
More like "would." It's not so much that it would be HARD (for an omnipotent sky God), so much that it would be SILLY.
"Well, it's no more ridiculous than believing that God exists."
Correct again.
"You know what's really ridiculous? Not believing in God because you can't prove it using science!"
Ockham's Razor. Russell's Teapot. You act suspiciously like you've never thought about this before. You probably weren't a very mature atheist, were you? But if you would only THINK about it, you could be mature like us grownups. See, I can do what you do, too.
"He respects our free will."
Abject devotion or torture - now THERE'S a guy who respects free will! I hope if I ever have a daughter, she marries someone just like that!
P.Z.!!! The cookies are on the way!!!
John Lewandowski:
Could you point out where, exactly, PZ has specifically attacked Catholicism as a whole? I just re-read his posts on this affair and I'm buggered if I can find what you're referring to. Seems to me he's attacking and intentionally provoking the fanatical "handful" you refer to.
Unless, of course, you're taking offense at his less-than-reverential attitude towards transubstantiation, which makes it rather difficult to accept your assertion that, "Obviously we don't expect non-Catholics to believe that."
bruin001@umn.edu
Subject: Bill Donohue and the rest of the nattering superstitious fools
Dear Sir,
I'll be brief. I'm sure you will get a number of these e-mails in defense of P.Z. Myers.
Please keep in mind that these godstruck folks (of any denomination) are infected with a socially-engineered delusion. They are insane. It's not their fault. It's a friggin' cracker, and so are they all. The world will not descend into The Lord of the Flies without their lying hierarchy, no matter what they have convinced themselves or others.
Thank you for your time.
Forgive me for not posting my real name here. I have seen too many hate-spewing religious assholes for my liking and have no desire to be "love bombed" by any one of them. My continuing question: If they really believe their god is real, why am I a threat?
John Lewandowski, all of that blathering about bigotry and hate speech. Yet you fail to talk about the death threats that were directed at Webster Cook and at PZ.
But I am oh so sorry that your delicate feelings were hurt.
"not pollute them."
Yeah. That's the Church's job.
John Lewandoski, I have been viciously attacking the deeply held beliefs of millions of Catholics ever since I escaped from that brain-dead religion 41 years ago. Every single Catholic in the world, who isn't a brainwashed child, is insane. And there's nothing harmless about their idiotic beliefs. The Catholic church has a very bloody history. The recent cracker incident proves beyond any doubt the Catholics are no better than Muslim terrorists. At least the Muslims don't molest little boys like the Catholic priests love to do.
#595
Waaaayyy back at #320 I posted the email address for the Catholic League. Its cl@catholicleague.org
Enjoy.
Lewandowski: He didn't do any of those things, he just asked his fans to right positive letters to his boss in the hopes that they'd out number the negative and, as he stated far above, he'd hear from him about that instead of the hate mail.
His problem with Catholicism stem from him finding nothing logical or rational in its doctrines and dogmas. Before you go off bandying about big works in an attempt to both make your self sound intelligent and attack someone else for being illogical, why don't you take the time to actually read what they've written and understand their argument. Having a understanding of your interlocutor's suppositions and conclusions might even help you out with that whole logic thing you seem to think you have a grasp of.
*smirk*
Any side bets on when the IT support people at SEED say, damn-it PZ, quit breaking our site with these threads?
I myself am a "lapsed" Catholic.My feeling is that everyone should be accorded respect in a civilized society.Yes Donahue is a huge bore,but taking actions like these simply detract from any reasoned argument one might make concerning the over reaction surrounding the ..er.."abduction" of the Host.Unfortunately many Atheists--whom I might now otherwise side with-- come off looking pretty arrogant indulging in this kind of aggressive nonsense.
Stephen Majewski wrote (#493)
"Because God, who can neither deceive nor be deceived, said so."
Oh?
2nd Thessalonians 2:11
"For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie."
The Bible claims God can lie. And the Bible is from God. If God says God can lie, either God can lie, or God can't lie (in which case, God is lying in this verse) so clearly God *can* lie, either way, according to the Bible.
The kvetching parade continues.
"Again, you guys are showing monumentally poor judgment. Committing what many of the taxpayers--whose dollars are, after all, the ultimate support for the majority of scientific and academic institutions--would consider an open act of desecration is a move that should appeal only to the socially autistic, or the emotionally disturbed."
Dear Mr. President,
I consider the invasion of Iraq a horrible desecration, and therefore, I must demand the immediate return of my tax monies.
"However, it angers me that you all care so little for the prestige of science that you would contemplate and support such a move."
You know what I think hurts The Cause and The Prestige more? Worrying incessantly about every little god damned thing anyone remotely connected with science says on whatever forum they say it on.
"This may seem like a minor mistake on your part, but keep in mind that such errors in rationality have resulted in some of the worst atrocities in history - segregation, slavery, the Holocaust, and every form of bigotry."
Godwin, you lose.
"I have no threats to make, because that is childish and excessive. I do think, however, that your comments were totally sophmoric and that you are a disgrace to the academy, where you are entrusted at a pretty darn good salary to nourish and cultivate young minds, not pollute them."
THINK OF THE CHILDREN! Or in this case, the legally adult!
Trolling the Catholics for great win.
scott, I don't think anyone thinks that PZ's 'style' is going to win over everyone. We all know that it offends many. That being said, it doesn't justify death threats and attempts to get him fired. If he can't speak his mind, what has our country come to?
So this is my idea, similar to others in the original thread, but adapted to the current situation.
We all go to Mass and get the consecrated cracker, if we haven't done so already.
We go twice between now and whenever, which should be easy enough (just look up the daily Mass schedule and see if you can't make it before work/class/whatever). We get TWO consecrated crackers.
We post videos to YouTube, in which we desecrate ONE of the crackers (I plan to dip mine in gin and set it on fire for for visual effect). We tell Donahue to shut the fuck up by next week, or we'll do the same to cracker #2. We email links pointing to our videos to Donahue.
Cool?
so yeah,im not hitchens,.and were not on hardball,but i would still love to take it outside.if youre ever in denver please do let me know.Frumfreight@aol.com
#598: they have white or wheat (crackers) depending on how you'd like to taste the lord.
ROFL! I guess the wheat crackers are for black churches. Ironic.
Bride of shrek
thank you very much!!!
oops, that's write.
There is plenty of support from all quarters PZ, check this out:-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL8h4fhGj78
scott said "My feeling is that everyone should be accorded respect in a civilized society."
What is civilized about threatening murder because somebody didn't want to eat a cracker? And why should anyone respect idiots?
"scott, I don't think anyone thinks that PZ's 'style' is going to win over everyone. We all know that it offends many. That being said, it doesn't justify death threats and attempts to get him fired. If he can't speak his mind, what has our country come to?"
Agreed-by all means everyone should continue to speak their minds.That said, judging from the number of actual death threats PZ has received perhaps another tact is preferable to the one he has chosen,which in and of itself strikes me as an over reaction as well.This kind of frenzied dialogue seems pretty pointless and ultimately fruitless in the grand scheme of things.
scott, we're all different but as for me, sometimes you've just got to pop that zit.
"judging from the number of actual death threats PZ has received perhaps another tact is preferable to the one he has chosen,which in and of itself strikes me as an over reaction as well."
So, scott, to avoid death threats from Catholic lunatics, you recommend PZ keep his mouth shut about religious insanity? Is that your suggestion? How about if people just say whatever they want, and wouldn't it be nice if so many Catholics weren't homicidal maniacs.
This is for Bill Donahue: I have just kidnapped a Catholic wafer. I will step on it, unless you send me one million dollars. Scratch that, unless you send me 100 billion dollars. Bwoohahaaha...
I, Bubba Sixpack, am a master terrorist. You will concede to my demands. You must admit it is a masterful strategy. Just the thought sends shivers down your spine.
#555 Posted by: Super | July 10, 2008 10:48 PM
I believe you've addressed your message to the wrong person. You should have addressed it to Bill Donohue. He's the real attention whore.
John B. Sandlin
Eric #618 - no, this type of hateful and aggressive action is NOT cool!
You know what most Catholics will do if anything happens? Pray for you...
Show some decency and levelheadedness, already.
Letter away, with full info and affiliations... I have to wonder what percentage of Catholics would do more than shrug at this whole brouhaha? My wife, who is one, did not seem especially interested or concerned for the wafer; only for the student's safety. After all, what kind of god would it be if any of this actually posed a problem for it?
There's a (relatively) new thread about this on
Digby
Few comments, responding to an offended Catholic commenter named "wtf"'s shared outrage, I began a quick response, which turned into a little bit more. (I'm a tad verbose when presenting an argument, I'm of the school that it needs to be HAMMERED home).
While I was composing, a dude named "American" posted this:
Here's my response:
I love the internet, when one's response can apply to arguments not even posted yet. BTW, We are now officially assholes!
Keep Firing, Assholes!
Peace,
Nick
Super in #555 has probably been using several names on this thread. He's obviously a lunatic, and he's definitely not an atheist.
Actually, I've changed my mind. I don't want Donohue shut the fuck up. I want him to keep plodding onward.
Instead, if he wishes me to spare the second cracker, I'll demand that he issue a public statement, on the following Friday, that he is an octopus. This will amuse me, it will not conflict with any of his ridiculous beliefs, and it will permit PZ Myers to post his picture for the next 'Friday Cephalopod' (with appropriate apologies to all cephalopods of course).
If he does that, I'll spare the second cracker.
After this what is the next act of aggression against, atheists?
Perhaps rounding up the priests and nuns like Hitler and Stalin did?
Anyone who dares to believe something you do not?
You people are sick.....
Well, guess I'm kinda late to the party, but here's mine. Sent via snail mail.
Hope this helps, PZ.
this was taking too long to explain on my lj, so I came up with a Very Short Summary:
Stupid college kid: Nyah, nyah, stole your wafer!
some crazy people: this is an outrage! we're going to kill you!
stupid college kid: Oh shit.
PZ Myers: I beg your pardon! you can't kill someone for kidnapping a cracker!
more crazy people: well, we're going to kill you too.
PZ Myers: I *fucking* beg your pardon?
slightly more sane people: why do you hate catholics so much?
me: wait, what?
I'm curious how you all feel about the silliness that erupted concerning the Mohammed cartoons.In that case I personally felt that if the actual depiction of Mohammed would result in decapitations,then respect for that belief trumped freedom of speech.I say this thinking about an episode from South Park where the creators wanted to depict his face.It struck me as incredibly arrogant because they deemed their show more important than human life.Its one thing to KNOW you are right,and quite another to endanger others lives to make a point.
Andy at 630:
Setting a cracker on fire is hateful and aggressive?
KKKAtheist,
You're not only a moron, you're an oxymoron. The KKK is a Christian organisation.
Retard.
I emailed my letter to the President off tonight, and a paper copy will go out in the morning (all signed with my real name and university affiliation). Here's what I said:
Nothing terribly novel, I know, but hopefully every little bit will help.
scott - well, it depends on whether or not it's your own life you're risking, doesn't it?
Anand, now you're calling yourself KKKAthiest?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I bet this professor (and his brown shirts) will find God real quick once in prison for hate crimes....
http://www.partnersagainsthate.org/laws/list-of-hate-crime-laws.html?st…
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Scott, again...
IDEAS are not owed respect. PZ criticized an idea. ALL ideas are open to criticism and should be criticized... and idiotic ones DESERVE to be criticized especially when they are dangerous and damaging.
PZ criticized the idea that a cookie is a dead martyr. That idea is deserving of criticism if any ever was... the idea is insane, delusional, idiotic.
The idea is deserving of criticism because it lead directly to DEATH THREATS against a person and harassment of him.
It is a DUTY of sane people to criticize such idiotic beliefs when they threaten real people.
Furthermore, those threats came not from thin air but from PEOPLE. People threating the life of others for criticizing their ideas ARE NOT DESERVING OF RESPECT.
People trying to get others fired for the exercise of their right to free speech in their own personal space - in criticizing others' beliefs are DUE NO RESPECT.
PZ threatened no person, he tried to get nobody fired. The people he criticized, the ideas he criticized did.
WHICH SIDE ARE YOU ON? There is a right one and a wrong one in this case.
I'm sure this'll get lost in the swamp of comments here, but a friend gave me a box of communion wafers for my birthday a few years ago. It was a wonderfully funny gift and I started munching on them with my gin and tonic immediately.
But they were dry, and horrible, and so they sat in my room for quite a while. Then my brother and I started thinking about a photo-blog cookbook for the wafers; maybe pizza Jesus-bagels or Chicken a la Lord.
Alas, we never did anything with them and I think they got thrown out. Looks like I missed my opportunity to publicly deface the cracker. Oh well.
Email sent, anyway.
Thanks PZ for everything!
"After this what is the next act of aggression against, atheists?
Perhaps rounding up the priests and nuns like Hitler and Stalin did?
Anyone who dares to believe something you do not?
You people are sick....."
as i have already referenced here,the first act of agression between you cathowits and an atheist was made by your sub-pope chester,Mr Donohue on hard ball towards hitchens.do you remember that take it outside comment on hardball you ignorant sexually repressed saltine savior eating douchebags?
Here is the deal.bring it.read above as i have left an email to better organize this.
brownshirt?
nope. browncoat.
OK, will one of the Christians please educate me on this. If I think someones religious beliefs are silly and that their actions are offensive, how should I respond? What should I say?
635 -
"After this what is the next act of aggression against, atheists?
Perhaps rounding up the priests and nuns like Hitler and Stalin did?
Anyone who dares to believe something you do not?
You people are sick....."
First, they came for the transubstantiated crackers. And I did not speak up, because I was not a transubstantiated cracker...
KKKAtheist = sock puppet.
Sockpuppetry: Like morphing, but with a specific intent: creating multiple identities supporting a position to create a false impression of popularity.
"scott - well, it depends on whether or not it's your own life you're risking, doesn't it?"
Yes I think it does.
I would probably applaud an individual forfeiting his own life to protect FOS but in the case of South Park it just struck me as arrogant and irresponsible in the extreme.
I bet this professor (and his brown shirts) will find God real quick once in prison for hate crimes....
http://www.partnersagainsthate.org/laws/list-of-hate-crime-laws.html?st…
Did you notice that only two of those laws specify crimes and that one of those is about assault while the other is about property damage? I am certain that the full value of any stolen cracker will be happily reimbursed -- perhaps triply! -- in the event of a conviction.
Maybe it's assault against the cracker that you were pondering though.
I wonder if the FBI can monitor this site for ISP addresses for Eric - who is essentially proposing a hate crime against a the Catholic religious population...
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/civilrights/hate.htm
Watch your ass, Eric - I am contacting the Minn office as we speak...
KKKatheist...
The "attack" was to use words to criticize people who were threatening VIOLENCE.
Catholics threatened VIOLENCE.
Atheists criticized them for it.
If that is what you meant by an attack, YES, we will continue.
Every time you sick delusional maniacs threaten the lives of people, threaten to physically attack them, and try to get them fired for expressing themselves... all because your insanity has been insulted, YES, we will criticize you.
KKK not an atheist wrote:
Considering the far massive proportion of religious believers in the US prison population, he'd be amongst friends...
Fucking moron.
Mandrake: props for the Firefly reference!
I'm not sure if inside emails are any more useful than the rest, but I'm a grad student at the Twin Cities campus of the U of M, and I just sent off a letter of support. I actually hadn't read Pharyngula much recently (though I've been an avid reader at times), and I was tipped off to this recent controversy by Tristero over at Digby's blog (http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2008/07/support-pz-myers-by-tristero-pz-…). Nice to see it's being spread around a bit to other supporters.
Mandrake, geek out much?
Scott, so what you're saying is - you should never criticize an ideology that threatens to kill people in response?
Doesn't sound like a very good plan to me.
PZ, this letter-writing campaign seems unnecessary. I think it should suffice to let Bob hold the wafer while you desecrate it.
k8, If you have been using more than one name here you are very likely going to be thrown out.
k8, I'm sure the FBI would be very interested in Eric's YouTube video where he's going to set a cracker on fire.
k8, why don't you go fuck yourself.
At midnight? You are a loony.
"OK, will one of the Christians please educate me on this. If I think someones religious beliefs are silly and that their actions are offensive, how should I respond? What should I say?"
Well again,answering only as a lapsed Catholic,I would hope you would respond in a non-silly,inoffensive manner.As an example I would abstain from the gratuitous offensive use of the term "cracker" to describe what believers think of as the body of Christ.I understand how gratifying this kind of slur can be in the face of a tyrant like Donahue,but it is also needlessly hurtful to millions of others who regardless of their Church's controversial history have not personally caused me harm.
K8, what utter bullshit.
Think what you will of Eric's idea - think it rude, ill-advised, counter-productive, whatever... fine.
But you have to be out of your freaking mind if you think the FBI is going to give a shit about someone threatening to do harm to a small baked good.
k8 at 654:
I suspect you of irony, but nevertheless, I thought I'd put in a standard "Ooh, I'm sooo scared..."
Hey, dumbass craig...
You take one or two "threats" (by his college peers) against this kid for a "universal" call for death from the Vatican.
You have been reading too much Dan Brown, numbnuts.
As for the call for aggression against Catholics by this "professor" - this is a public the incitement of hate and, if anything happens, hate crimes.
Catholics reprimand a kid for disrespect (one extremist threatens him) and the response has been a universal call to arms and theft from nutjob atheists.
What drama queens to drum this up...
You are showing your true colors and...have fun in prision!
Another thought:
How could the FBI tell I was actually setting fire to a CONSECRATED host? Is there some forensic test?
It is hard to think of anything more vile than to intentionally desecrate the Body of Christ. We look to those who have oversight responsibility to act quickly and decisively.
k8, it is very strange you think burning a wafer is a hate crime. It seems you are following in the no so great blow hole's footstep.
But please report to the FBI. I am sure there are agents who will have a great time tracking your insanity.
scott said:
I disagree. Name more than a few societal revolutions (for want of a better word) that haven't offended the vast majority of people in a country, at one time or another?
PZ's actions were, first and foremost, to show solidarity with the young man that had been treated so badly for what can only be described as a childish prank.
But they also serve another purpose. How are we ever going to get along in an ever more socially diverse and globalized world if everyone has to tip-toe around just in case they receive death threats and attempts to have them fired?
What many of us are attempting to do here is bring about some long overdue accountability to religion. Many of us believe that for far too long it has been acceptable to hide behind faith, for all sorts of, often entirely disingenuous, reasons. And it has been used to justify some truly disgusting and damaging beliefs, and still is today. I'm sure that I need say no more than "Homosexuals" and "condoms in Africa" for you to understand where I am coming from.
So, the idea is that we really need to base decisions around modes of thought that are available to everyone, everywhere, and at all times -- like science and specifically evidence based reasoning, for instance. This obviously places a great strain on religion, but, and I don't mean to sound too dismissive, that's hard luck. Why should I believe what a Christian has to say (when it is entirely derived using faith), when I don't believe (and nor do most people, including the religious) what someone who claims to have been told that we all must live in mud huts by an alien? You see the problem, here?
And while I am generally very respectful of all people, I shouldn't have to respect their ideas, just because they say so. That has to be a recipe for disaster, does it not? I have no intention of preventing people from believing as they wish. I just believe that I should be allowed to criticize those beliefs, as we are in all other areas of life. And the problems and offense usually arises when people know that what they believe is not defensible.
If people are allowed to go through life without ever being offended, is it any wonder that we live in such a reactionary and irrational world?
@#638, scott
My conclusion is that you are a coward.
but scott... it IS A CRACKER.
If you think your Honda Civic is a magic carpet, do we all have to start calling Hondas Magic Carpets?
There is such a thing as reality.
scott, I want to be needlessly hurtful to millions of religious assholes. Please tell me what else offends Catholic idiots so I can use that also.
Scott, I just thought of a possible compromise.
When they stop preaching every week that I am immoral, wicked, and deserving of eternal torture for not believing their stuff, then I'll stop calling it a cracker.
Deal?
You are showing your true colors and...have fun in prision!
Posted by: KKKAthiest
And thank you for posting the twisted dream of a twisted asshole.
"Scott, so what you're saying is - you should never criticize an ideology that threatens to kill people in response?
Doesn't sound like a very good plan to me."
No what I'm saying is that the creators of S Park weren't risking their own skins to depict an image of Mohammed,just OTHER peoples.Reckless and arrogant.
Woah! I can't believed I missed this. Catholics should know as well as anyone that you can't desecrate the body of Christ any more because the body escaped from the tomb and ascended into heaven. That's in the bible, a communion cracker being Jesus is not.
I wonder what they give for hate crimes, Eric?
20 years + (you thought the hazing you got in freshman dorms was rough, buddy?)
If caught, this would definitely be prosecuted....exp considering the level of interest now.
. . . and when we're done arguing about transubstantiation, let's go after the filioque, the Comma Johanneum and the Pericope Adulteræ and really put people to sleep!
Incidentally, according to Sitemeter's page view counter, Pharyngula broke the 100K mark today (109,843 views and 83,236 visits, to be more exact). So, to all you raging exemplars of Christian love out there, I'd just like to thank you for pouring ad revenue into the Evil Atheist Conspiracy's coffers! Have a pleasant evening.
Myers is in good company. As I understand it (since I don't read French), Diderot in his Encyclopedia cross-referenced the articles on cannibalism and transubstantiation.
If some thief had stolen the bread from Jesus' plate at the last supper, what would he have done? My guess is he would have offered the thief more bread.
Also:
Once the holy spirit has been released into the wafer, is it stuck there? You would think that a priest that could Exercise the demons out a possessed person And consecrate a cracker, would also be able to De-consecrate a cracker. I guess there are some things that just can't be done.
Very late, but I did at least want to stress ONE post before this entire thing either flames out, or turns into a real bonfire:
WAY back up there, at #85, Josh said:
and that, ladies and gents, is the real value of what PZ has done, and all the energy poured into these threads.
that little bit of doubt and hesitation, when faced with the actual reality of what "belief" can drive people to do.
I for one, am in awe of someone willing to take the kind of flak PZ KNEW he would take for posting that original thread, for the sole purpose, in the end, of just adding a small bit of doubt to the faithful.
...Of his continuing, likely wearying, efforts to don the firesuit nearly every day, just in order to move the Overton Window a little bit further.
If you think he does this for publicity, think again.
It's a nasty job, but someone's gotta do it.
...and hattip to Josh for demonstrating that there are still people who know how to properly deal with something like this, regardless of who agrees/disagrees with their beliefs.
I did note the overall scarcity of posts like Josh's in this thread, and the previous, from people claiming themselves Catholics.
sent my "Pro on PZ" note to the good president.
Well yeah, but Jesus had a magic trick that gave him access to near infinite amounts of bread. By contrast, communion wafers are in short supply.
k8 at 677:
But if I do it to two crackers, do I get 40?
Kel, The Catholics believe Jesus is inserted into wafers whenever a priest says the magic words. Using their logic pissing on a wafer is the same as pissing on god.
Eric: "How could the FBI tell I was actually setting fire to a CONSECRATED host? Is there some forensic test?"
It would not matter, bud - it is called intent....
Are you writing from your home computer? Or on the school's network?
"No what I'm saying is that the creators of S Park weren't risking their own skins to depict an image of Mohammed,just OTHER peoples.Reckless and arrogant."
And what is said in churches (and mosques) every week about non-believers and what fate they deserve is NOT reckless and arrogant?
Ah yes, Bill Donohue... Here are just a sample of his "wisdom:"
"Hollywood is controlled by secular Jews who hate Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular. It's not a secret, OK? And I'm not afraid to say it. That's why they hate this movie. It's about Jesus Christ, and it's about truth. It's about the Messiah.... Hollywood likes anal sex. They like to see the public square without nativity scenes. I like families. I like children. They like abortions. I believe in traditional values and restraint. They believe in libertinism. We have nothing in common. But you know what? The culture war has been ongoing for a long time. Their side has lost."
-Bill Donohue,
Scarborough Country,
12/4/2004
"Well, no. I'm saying if a Catholic votes for Kerry because they support him on abortion rights that is to cooperate in evil."
-Bill Donohue,
Hardball
10/21/2004
"This same guy [Dean Hamer] came up with this idea of the gay gene. I remember when that conversation was going on. Gays were all of a sudden worrying if people would start aborting kids when they found out the DNA suggested the kid might be gay or God forbid, we'd run out of little gay kids, so all of a sudden, they became pro-life."
-Bill Donohue,
Scarborough Country,
12/4/2004
"To defend the institution of marriage is pro-civil society. This traditional institution cannot be defended if all alternative lifestyles are treated as its equal."
-Bill Donohue, in defense of former Senator Rick Santorum's 2003 remarks equating homosexuality with bigamy, polygamy, incest, and adultery.
"Well, first they said it [The Passion of the Christ] was anti-Semitic. That didn't work. Then they said it was too violent. That didn't work. Then they said it was S & M. That didn't work. Then they said it was pornography. That didn't work. Now they're saying it's fascistic queer-bashing. That kind of language would ordinarily get somebody taken away in a straitjacket and -- put you in the asylum. I don't know what about -- the queer-bashing is all about. I'm pretty good about picking out who queers are and I didn't see any in the movie. I'm usually pretty good at that."
-Bill Donohue
Scarborough Country
3/12/2004
"Name for me a book publishing company in this country, particularly in New York, which would allow you to publish a book which would tell the truth about the gay death style. There are certain things that the left won't tolerate. They are censorial at heart. Indeed, the signature appetite of the left has always been power. Now, they are running up against the American people."
-Bill Donohue,
Scarborough Country
2/27/2004
"Let this be a lesson to militant atheists like Pullman: keep your hollow beliefs to yourself. And ease up on demonizing Catholicism-no other religion has done more to promote human rights, science and goodwill."
--Bill Donohue, in a report from a Christian news site regarding the about the "poor" opening of the film version of "The Golden Compass" of which he led a boycott against.
www.LifeSiteNews.net,
12/10/2007
And you Catholics have the temerity to lecture us about "tolerance!" You, and this repugnant little troll you've rallied around, have the gall to demand that we respect your supersticions, all the while you piss all over those who fail to met your ridiculous spiritual ideals and those who question your Medieval notions of morality!
Where the FUCK do you get off?
Janine ID
As much as I can without being arrested.
I felt "brownshirts" was so ridiculous that it needed a joke.
NYTs is definitely a sock puppet.
@#638, scott
"My conclusion is that you are a coward."
You are in a room surrounded by "terrorists" lets call them.
They give you a pencil a pad of paper and a stark choice:depict the image of Mohammed,stand up for FOS and DIE.
Or not so much.The choice is yours-you decide.
My POINT is this-S Park were NOT risking anything.
What would you do?
OK, K8,NYT and KKK are clearly all the same idiot.
scott, since it seems insensitive to call a communion wafer a 'cracker', I will do an end run around this.
I simply think this whole thing is stupid. Being raised in the Lutheran Church brought me close to suicide as a teenager. I don't mean to be melodramatic here as I realize many teenagers go through this for what ever reason. But for me, it was due to my religious upbringing. Paradoxically, I have to admit that my fear of suicide leading to hell did keep me from plunging the scissors into my gut.
"No what I'm saying is that the creators of S Park weren't risking their own skins to depict an image of Mohammed,just OTHER peoples.Reckless and arrogant."
"And what is said in churches (and mosques) every week about non-believers and what fate they deserve is NOT reckless and arrogant?"
So your point is what?
My point is they're all wrong.
Scott does have a point. You can risk your own life for whatever you wish, but you shouldn't risk that of others without their consent.
That said, innocent people in bookstores all over the world were put in danger when they released "The Satanic Verses", and I'd have trouble arguing against that. Well, except that I think it's his most poorly written book, but that's neither here nor there.
Scott, we seem to agree that religion is dangerous.
What you seem to be saying though is that the proper reaction to that danger is to hunker down, keep our heads low, and let them run rampant? Hope we won't be noticed?
I understand your point about not putting the lives of others at risk, but I honestly don't see how that applies.
Is PZ somehow putting others at risk because of his actions? Seems to me he's the one taking the heat (pathetic heat that it is).
I dunno, your attitude pretty much seems like an "give in to the terrorists" tactic.
k8/NYTs:
(I still believe you're a satirist, but I can't restrain myself.)
Intent to do what? Set a chunk of Our Lord on fire? I admit, that would be an interesting exercise, but as I see no compelling evidence that the cracker is a deity, and cannot in fact bring myself to believe such a thing.... Well you see how intent breaks down.
I suppose, in a more fascist country than the one I inhabit, the police could imprison me for intending to insult the faithful. There are worse things to be imprisoned for, I suppose, and so I'll take my chances.
Odd that someone who signs himself KKKAtheist is calling other people drama queens...
Totally off-topic, apologies. I gave blood today (live in UK so didn't earn a thin dime donating blood to the socialised National Health Service) was a bit light-headed when I came home and read the blog. In a fit of pique at the ongoing idiocy, I wiped my arse on Teh Bibble. Can I go to hell now, please?
Please, it is not, I repeat not cannibalism.
It is deiphagia.
Well duh. Thought it was pretty obvious I was making a joke.
This whole thing is nothing but nonsensical jackassery. Bill Donahue is a big, blubbering vagina...nothing more.
My point is you're wrong.
You seem to be saying that pointing out the existence of dangerous insane threats is the same as making dangerous insane threats.
A preacher preaching fire and brimstone and divisiveness and hatred and sexism and homophobia and delusional dangerous thought is NOT the same as someone pointing OUT that what the preacher is preaching is dangerous.
If a violent psychopath is going to kill people unless everyone gives up their right to free expression... and the people refuse to give up that right, and the psycho kills people - he alone is responsible for his actions.
My Thompson Chain Reference KJV has my own blood splattered all over two pages (the part about the Tower of Babel). I got a really bad bloody nose while reading it, and sneezed.
I fixed it for you.
Kel, Oh. Never mind.
Scott, we seem to agree that religion is dangerous.
What you seem to be saying though is that the proper reaction to that danger is to hunker down, keep our heads low, and let them run rampant? Hope we won't be noticed?
I understand your point about not putting the lives of others at risk, but I honestly don't see how that applies.
Is PZ somehow putting others at risk because of his actions? Seems to me he's the one taking the heat (pathetic heat that it is).
I dunno, your attitude pretty much seems like an "give in to the terrorists" tactic.
Actually the S Park stuff doesn't directly apply in this case,its just something I felt like bringing up out of curiosity.As for PZ,I abhor the idea of anyone issuing death threats against him,and simply question his modus operandi in light of said threats.I don't think we should bow down to threats,but in extreme cases like the Mohammed affair,it struck me as ridiculous to risk decapitation by offending what amounts to intractable fanaticism-certainly by answering back in yet another display of immovable ideology.
Ok, bed time, so I will reiterate my proposed compromise.
When the Catholics stop preaching every week that I and others like me are immoral, wicked, and deserving of eternal torture for not sharing their beliefs, then I'll stop calling it a cracker.
And I won't even wait hundreds of years just to catch up and make things even.
craig,
I think (I could be wrong) what scott intends to say is that if someone, say the producers of South Park, want to publish a picture of Mohammad, and a group of people say "if you do that, we're going to run into crowded grocery stores strapped with dynamite", that the producers of South Park might consider that in their decision.
I don't know what a right or wrong decision would be, but it does make sense that they'd think about it.
Ok scott, I guess we were both going off on different tangents. Nevermind.
#705
Oops. Thanks for the correction.
It may have already been posted, but in case it hasn't yet...
Kyle kills Jesus. Jesus kills Bill Donahue (South Park classic): http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/104422/?tag=outside+South+Park
I'm with craig, it's bedtime. Not that we're sleeping together or anything. Not that there would be anything wrong with that.
I've been meaning to say this since yesterday, but felt a need to read the comments, and found myself overdue for bedtime.
To all of the rather polite people, including many Roman Catholics, who have simply pointed out that desecration of the host would be offensive to many, and have asked that it not happen: had the initial responses been overwhelmingly of this sort, there would never have been a story to begin with, and the hosts would be safe from the horrors now falling upon them.
Try to get all your co-religionists into the mind-set you have, it tends to prevent escalation.
And no, it is not hypocritical for me to ask them to be polite while giggling with anticipation, because all us evil ones are merely having a good laugh at truely insane overreaction to a totally harmless act (the crackers are given away-there is no theft or disruption).
I have a cross in my bottom right now.
mandrake @ 695 -
The thing about The Satanic Verses is this, though:
1 - Don't offend Muslims by publishing a giggly little irreverent book which they won't even read anyway.
2 - ????
3 - Free, open, non-violent society for all
That said, I agree that it's a deeply unpleasant thing to use bookstore employees as human shields. I just wonder what the alternatives are and if they work and at what cost. I really don't know.
No worries Eric, I'll defend you, we'll win, kick some arse along the way and it will all become legendarily known as "The Great Cracker Case of '08". Pharyngulites can fill the gallery in court and cat call anti-religious slogans at appropriate times. It'll be a hoot.
Fuck, if K8 ( or whatever his/her name is for THIS hour)gets its panties bunched about some gin and a bic lighter going near its precious wafer then its gonna go ballistic when it hears about my plans for the a wafer and my baby's full nappy.
Re: 688.
Ugh! That could have gone better. Sorry for the formatting. I was so pissed off that I neglected to copy edit and format my last post properly. I hope you guys can sort out the Donohue quotes. They really do show what a bigoted piece of shit he is.
That is an uncanny coincidence....
"My point is you're wrong."
"You seem to be saying that pointing out the existence of dangerous insane threats is the same as making dangerous insane threats."
Believe it or not I side with science.
That said I can't help but feel a kind of irritation and impatience with this aggressive tact popularized by people like R Dawkins.Its a kind of fanaticism in itself-another belief set in stone.
oddly enough, I owned a bookstore at the time "Satanic Verses" came out in paperback. I explained to all my employees that I was planning on carrying it, & no one balked. Of course, that was in San Francisco, not generally known as hotbed of fundamentalist Islam.
My Letter:
Dear President Bruininks,
I hope the day finds you well. I also hope that you are in no way swayed by the ridiculous attempt at a new inquisition started by the Catholic League's modern Torquemada, Bill Donohue.
Rather than shame, I believe your University should be proud to have a professor who is unafraid to show these bullying thugs for what they are. One of the most important things society needs is level-headed people like Professor Meyers who are willing to showcase the ridiculous intentions of the uneducated, uninformed, and willfully ignorant.
Professor Meyers is a much needed voice - occasionally abrasive, but rarely incorrect, it shouts out this message: There is a growing part of the population steadfastly resisting the desires of some to slide human progress back to the dark ages... over a piece of deified pastry.
Any calls for Dr. Meyers' resignation should be met with the derision they deserve. Odds are that you won't be missing anything, as the types who would kill for a cracker are not the types who would likely have the intelligence required to gain admission to your University anyway.
However, by holding the line against this folly, you'll send a message to those who could gain admission; the University of Minnesota doesn't hire and fire based on expedient religious correctness, but rather on ability and in full support of an individuals right to free speech. Last time I looked, it was protected regardless of the content. Help keep it that way.
@696
"Scott, we seem to agree that religion is dangerous.
What you seem to be saying though is that the proper reaction to that danger is to hunker down, keep our heads low, and let them run rampant? Hope we won't be noticed?"
Exactly why I called Scott a coward.
Crazy people making wild threats if anybody says anything against their crazy beliefs. So everybody should just shut up and go along with the crazies? That is what scott suggests, because he's afraid the crazies will carry out their threats.
Fuck that. Maybe the crazies do carry out their threats, maybe even against me. Better to fight them than simply surrender.
It is irresponsible to appease the crazies and let the craziness spread by pretending it isn't crazy because you're afraid the crazies will go crazy and kill somebody.
"Craig,
I think (I could be wrong) what scott intends to say is that if someone, say the producers of South Park, want to publish a picture of Mohammad, and a group of people say "if you do that, we're going to run into crowded grocery stores strapped with dynamite", that the producers of South Park might consider that in their decision.
I don't know what a right or wrong decision would be, but it does make sense that they'd think about it."
Very succinctly put-although for myself I don't have any problem siding with NOT publishing the pictures.Again in extreme cases where extreme violence is the promised outcome,human life must take precedence.
Wow. Three posts. Over 1900 comments. That's some cracker.
Liberals/atheists generally hate all religions (except for Islam, post 9/11)
#57, Cathy
"My friends and I debate theology all the time. We learned early on that if you actually want to convince somebody of something, you have to respect thier opinions first, and keep the argument on the level of the intellectual, not personal.
Please respect my beliefs."
Beliefs either demand respect based on their merits, or deserve none. Seriously, while you seem like a nice enough person you should not ask for your beliefs to be respected. If they are respectable, they will be respected. Otherwise, they are not especially respectable simply because you believe them.
President Bruininks,
It has come to the attention of the readers of Dr. PZ Myers' Pharyngula blog that Bill Donohue of the Catholic League has chosen his next target for outrage. As I'm sure you're fully aware, Dr. Myers posted an entry on his personal blog in reference to a news story about a UCF student who smuggled a wafer out of a Catholic church. The entry was critical of the Catholic belief in transubstantiation as well as the furor over the incident.
As a former Catholic I am well aware of the sacredness of the Eucharist in the view of the Catholic Church. However, Dr. Myers was hired by your institution as a scientist and functions as one in his daily life as well as his professional life. He was hired to teach young minds at your institution of learning how to think scientifically. Accepted science views and appreciates the scientific method as the only current way to understand the universe and how it functions. The Catholic Church's teachings on the Eucharist don't meet the criteria for scientific acceptance by any measure.
The outrage expressed to you by many Catholics, including Bill Donohue, is unfortunate but isn't relevant to reasonable discussion in an institution of learning. Dr. Myers' comments reflect a worldview that is consistent with all that we know and understand, as of now, in regards to a testable reality. His views simply reflect the scientific consensus and until proven otherwise are consistent with the science curriculum at your institution.
Respectfully,
Marc Jagoe
Normal people do not go around pissing in the faces of total strangers and explaining that they do it because they are mad at somebody who is not there. - Mark P. Shea
I just pissed in someone's face, I think he was saying something about god. No, really. That's wrong?
Jasper, you are obviously paying no attention to this thread at all.
Re: 699,
Ya know we here in the US don't get cash for giving blood either, right? As you obviously know, it's just what you do as a good citizen. Thanks for giving. All the rest of ya, follow the lead...
Wow, I didn't check Pharyngula for a day and ... the last couple threads ... just ... wow. The concentration of stupid is mind-boggling. Oh, the great minds that make up the CL ... this must be that subtle, non-literal theology thing I keep hearing about. I must have gone through at least a dozen irony meters by now.
I don't believe I've ever laughed this hard in a loooong time. I concur with the poster who said you should publish the really over-the-top death-threat hatemail (and the choice selections from these threads) in a separate webpage. Xtian love & peace at work! lolol.
And I know lots of posters have said this already, but great job nevertheless! One blog post was apparently all it took to unmask the crazies, and the best part is, it's Donohue and his fellow CL-types who tore off the mask themselves. Brilliant. (Vox Day calling you a sociopath is particularly precious - wasn't he the guy who said he would go around killing children if his God told him to do so? Oh la la, my brand-new irony meter, there she goes again.)
Re: 699,
Ya know we here in the US don't get cash for giving blood either, right? As you obviously know, it's just what you do as a good citizen. Thanks for giving. All the rest of ya, follow the lead...
Starbuck, that is awesome.
Absolutely awesome.
On so many levels.
Goodness, can I just take you home and keep you in a cupboard to pull out at dinner parties? You are just precious.
"If you liked the coffee table book about wax fruit, you'll absolutely love my pet racist-moron-in-a-cupboard!"
Bride of Shrek, that's wonderful to hear. Sounds like great fun, and I do hope k8 or whoever can manage to get me arrested now. I'm also hoping that they can arrest me after a stand-off with some sort of tactical weapons team. I could hold Christ over the toilet or something while the hostage negotiator pleads with me on the phone.
I cannot help but to think that this cracker is a MacGuffin.
Dear President Bruininks:
I am writing in support of Dr. Myers. I will not burden you further with the recounting of what is behind this brouhaha but simply wish to commend Dr. Myers for his efforts in promoting intellectual and educational freedom. From time to time, those lacking in good grace and integrity will do what they can to diminish the positive effect of his efforts. He is fighting a good and necessary fight at the right time in our country.
I'm sure you realize that he is an asset to your institution and will continue to be. Please know that I appreciate your patience in dealing with the negative correspondence that you may be receiving and also know that far more of us support the fight for reason, freedom of thought and advancement of science that Dr Myers believes in and is working to achieve.
Thank you for your time,
@scott
"Again in extreme cases where extreme violence is the promised outcome,human life must take precedence."
Yeah, and that is exactly what they want. Shut up, sit down, or we'll kill some innocents. I don't know about you, but I always thought that we should fight against such threats, not give into them.
Eric, I want k8 to report you so that the FBI can start their files on the rather unhinged k8.
We could write a letter of support or the UM could put up a poll...
A. Yay PZ, you rock and you are right.
B. Bill Catholic person, you suck and you are wrong.
C. Who the hell names there child Sunday Rose?
D. Sqwaaark, Polly wants a cracker, Sqwaaark.
This is assuming the FBI doesn't already *have* a file on the rather unhinged k8.
"That said I can't help but feel a kind of irritation and impatience with this aggressive tact popularized by people like R Dawkins.Its a kind of fanaticism in itself-another belief set in stone."
This is what I don't get. How on earth are atheists being the aggressive ones?
We're not erecting big pointy buildings on every street corner to call attention to ourselves, we don't get together in said buildings and drill into the heads of others and their children than anyone who doesn't think like us is a bad person.
We don't go knocking on people's doors to give them talks about atheism, we don't leave atheist tracts in laundromats, we don't try to get slogans put into flag oaths and on money, we don't try to silence people who aren't atheists, or start wars against them, or try to prevent them from immigrating to this country.
All we do is, when confronted with all of the above, express clearly and succinctly that we find these beliefs and actions to be nonsense.
That's it. We don't push anything on anyone... we "new" atheists merely express our opinions. We simply do not HIDE any longer.
We simply no longer DEFER to religion.
We're the aggressive ones?
My support letter has been sent!! Go PZ!
As for the brainwashed religious nutters like k8: Get a life, please. Seriously. Please. Pull your head out of your holy book and take a good long look at life and realize just how ridiculous you sound.
craig, I think scott meant that our arguments are mean.
This is what I don't get. How on earth are atheists being the aggressive ones?
It's just projection.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
Starbuck:
HAAAAAA ha ha ha HAAAAA!
Email of support sent, cc'ed; formal letter copy in mail at some more civilized hour.
'What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist.' (attributed to Rushdie)
Here's my letter, it will go out in tomorrow's mail:
--------------------
Hello:
I wouldn't worry too much about the current controversy surrounding Dr. Myers. I _would_ consider whether his increasingly provocative antics are worth the brand name of your university.
Dr. Myers seems to be more and more consumed with dabbling in something outside his trained occupation: philosophy and religion. He seems to be increasingly preoccupied with ridiculing those outside his philosophical school, which is puzzling. The points he makes are far flung, not cogent in many ways, and for those trained either philosophy and apologetics, sound either jejune or as outright ranting. He may be "scoring points" with an uneducated "crowd," but I can hardly expect that your university prides itself in it's ability to rabble rouse.
In every real, argumentative sense, Dr. Myers is harmless -- except in how he represents your institution. If he is involved in hard science, what business does he have in insulting a particular religion, or religions? How is this constructive in any sense?
The root of this controversy may be more straightforward: I _am_ curious if he receives revenue from the ads on his scienceblogs.com website, and would question whether some of his recent, more flamboyant, antics are related to generating buzz or designed to drive web traffic to his site (this is just a guess.) If the later were the case, it would be reasonable to consider whether many people are wasting their time viewing a site that is, as they say, "not designed to catch the fish, but to catch the fisherman."
Regards,
[real name, etc.]
-------
craig,
it probably does seem to them like we're aggressive, since religions are used to being able to say whatever they want without being challenged. They take their authority for granted and when someone questions their completely bizarre ideas about reality, it's shocking I tell you, shocking!
In other words, when the playing field has been tipped in one teams favor for a long time, they're going to cry foul when it's made level.
Hmmm, sorry for the double post all. A first for me.
Jasper, you state that:
"Liberals/atheists generally hate all religions (except for Islam, post 9/11)"
I say "All religions hate humans and wish us to fuck our children, kill puppies, drown women, spit on short people and burn Maple trees."
OK, we've now both declared things without evidence. Great. We should probably back these statements up with some facts and statistics, etc.
I'll give you the advantage of going first. When you've shown evidence that your statement is true, I'll show you mine. Until that point we'll both agree that the other is correct, shall we?
What? You don't like the evidence game? WELL I FUCKING DO! OUT WITH IT BITCH! Give your proof. Or is this just something you "feel" or has been told to you? Maybe something you hope is true?
Show the evidence. While you're at it, show us the evidence for whichever god you believe in. Do that, and you'll go down in history for ever as a truly great man. Don't, and you're just another in a chorus of millions of pathetic voices throughout time with nothing to backup their ludicrous claims. Which is it?
Don't bother to reply, I already know...
"In other words, when the playing field has been tipped in one teams favor for a long time, they're going to cry foul when it's made level."
It's not even close to level. I could only imagine the sweet sight of heads exploding when the playing field is actually level.
Yo, kkk8: the operative word in "hate crime" is "crime," not "hate". That is, a hate crime, is a crime that has hatred as its motivation. Criticism, cussing, or outright mockery is not a crime. Death threats, however, are. If you see one of those coming from an atheist directed at a Catholic, because they are Catholics, then it is a hate crime. Otherwise, it is just free speech that you disagree with.
Get a new buzzword.
wnelson @ 746 has been kind enough to provide an example for my statement at 747.
"First, they came for the transubstantiated crackers. And I did not speak up, because I was not a transubstantiated cracker..."
That comment deserves the Molly!
To all the fundamentalist Catholics here preaching tolerance:
How tolerant would you be if a gay bar opened up next to one of your churches? Chances are, all they would be doing was minding their own business and not desecrating anything. For some reason I don't think you would be too tolerant and would most likely be picketing and sending death threats to the owners and attendees.
Fuck off. If you all didn't try to pass legislation restricting the lives of people who live and believe differently than you, people wouldn't resent you so much. I don't see atheists trying to outlaw attendance at Sunday services.
And to all those trying to argue with the likes of Mueller and other Catholics most likely from Franciscan University - they have all been brainwashed into believing in "the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist" that they really would probably give their lives rather than having it defaced. Sad really. There is so much more to live for than a cracker.
And in my previous post in support of PZ - what I mean was that I have learned more from him about biology and evolution than anybody else. I attended Catholic schools for most of my life and so my biology lessons were primarily concerned with trying to convince me that abortion was such an evil sin that Planned Parenthood clinics deserved to be blown up and abortion doctors killed. Yes, I attended Franciscan University. I'm glad I managed to escape the brainwashing.
Exactly. Therein lies the double standard of religion when it comes to non-beliefs. If you don't have a belief you are expected to sit down and shut up about it, and if you do dare speak out you are branded a fanatic, a militant. Considering all the deceptive ways believers make a case for their beliefs: pushing obvious falsehoods, appealing to emotion, targeting the vulnerable, preaching to the ignorant, tying belief to community; somehow openly denying that these beliefs that are based on faith have any credulity is an equivalent to the fanatical and pushy behaviour that is done under the name of religon?
When atheists start running TV shows where donation is a prerequisite for salvation, then maybe they are. But until such time...
wnelson, in his letter to the University, wrote:
Er, why can't he have an opinion on religion? Science is his job - slagging off the inane rantings of credulous fools and their irrational belief systems is his hobby.
btw, I'm sure this has already been pointed out to "K8", but to qualify as a "hate crime" for prosecution, it has to also qualify as a crime to begin with. the "hate" issue is tacked on afterwards.
sorry, but not eating a cracker, or threatening to not eat a cracker, or threatening to put a cracker in a plastic bag, rather fails to qualify as a crime.
Now, if someone burned your church, and also stated they hate your religion, or killed a paritioner, because they were of a specific denomination, that could be considered to fall under various states' hate crime statutes.
do you even see the difference?
meh, who cares.
K8 belongs to those nutters that would prefer the CC have an active branch of the inquisition (with medieval torture devices) in every town, and be funded publicly, like the fire department.
The CC still does still have an inquisitorial dept., btw.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1251677.stm
gdlchmst :
you're right (sigh), it's still pretty tilted. I'm too much of an optimist. After reading this thread, I really should know better.
""If you liked the coffee table book about wax fruit, you'll absolutely love my pet racist-moron-in-a-cupboard!""
Hahahhahhahahha..
Freakin' Brilliant
"and for those trained either philosophy and apologetics" - wnelson
And just who would that be, wnelson, because it certainly isn't you. Last time you were here, I wasn't even sure that you had read, "Philosophy: An Introduction", such were your piss-poor arguments.
You are nothing but a pseudo-intellectual, with delusions of philosophical grandeur. Come to think of it, there is another person that comments here would fit that description, as well. What is it about philosophy, I wonder?
wnelson @ 746 :
I wont be repeating any of your incoherent rant,just 2 things that kindof stood out of the general dumbness of the post :
1.What is PZ's philosophical school again,I seem to have missed that bit in the last few years,did he found one,did he join one? And yes,I guess you could say he scores points with those of us "untrained in apologetics".
2.In what way is the fact of being involved in "hard science"(whatever that is) to do with one's stance on issues like religion or philosophy in your private life? So your point is,that,say I as a Physician cant have a stance on philosophical questions or religion? He doesnt represent his University in his private life,neither do I represent my Hospital once Im done for the day.
What utter nonsense.
Actually, no -- harmless means "harmless". He simply has nothing cogent to say -- unless heckling and bickering is cogent.
In terms of rabble rousing and driving web traffic -- granted -- Myers is going great guns. But I don't see him either making strides in research, or paying any attention to the rules of philosophy or apologetics -- he can't even manage civility.
What is there to _really_ see here?
??
Sent. Keep up the good work. What you do needs to be done.
I think the sophisticated training of a sophisticated apologist must go like this:
1) Craft easily rebutted nonsense arguments laden with appeals to solipsism.
2) When the easily rebutted nonsense is rebutted, accuse your opponent of not having understood the subtleties of your argument. In no circumstances should you be specific, or cite sources or evidence. Then drop Aquinas' name.
3) Goto 1.
Now that's settled, and everyone here has Sophisticated Theological Training (TM).
If there's nothing here for you to see, wnelson, why are you here?
paying any attention to the rules of philosophy or apologetics? What are you talking about?
Only Christian idiots use the word apologetics. Why don't you go read your bible, asshole.
You. Acting like a jackass.
The following will be the body of a letter I send out tomorrow morning:
Dear President Bruininks,
I am writing this letter to offer my support for a member of the UM faculty, PZ Myers.
Recently, Mr. Myers has become the focal point of some scrutiny due to his unabashed criticism of certain aspects of our society, namely concerning certain practices of those professing to follow the Catholic faith.
This scrutiny was not accidental, nor was it coincidental; One William Donahue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, has championed this attack. Mr. Donahue has publicly called, on his own website, for people to contact yourself in order to file complaints about Mr. Myers.
I care not that Mr. Donahue personally takes issue with Mr. Myers. I think such a disagreement would, in an ideal situation, be hardly worth mentioning.
However, this is far from an ideal situation, and I would offer that I find Mr. Donahue's actions deplorable. What worries me is that the nominal head of such a large, obviously biased group would call upon his 'flock' to baselessly assail the livelihood of a man whose only affront (and I use that term lightly) has been a public disagreement.
Thus, I felt compelled to write in support of Mr. Myers, and I would urge you to do your best to eschew the ignorant cries for his professional head.
Regards,
Thomas Winger
"Dr. Myers seems to be more and more consumed with dabbling in something outside his trained occupation: philosophy and religion."
Not any more outside of his field than people who are religious trying to decree reality.
"The points he makes are far flung, not cogent in many ways, and for those trained either philosophy and apologetics, sound either jejune or as outright ranting"
in response to the brilliant rhetoric spouted by his religious opponents, like "the sun goes around the earth" and "god says you're a fool if you don't believe in him, therefore god exists."
"I _am_ curious if he receives revenue from the ads on his scienceblogs.com website, and would question whether some of his recent, more flamboyant, antics are related to generating buzz or designed to drive web traffic to his site (this is just a guess.)"
I see. And the Catholic Church would never be so mercenary.
My point? Subject religion to the same criteria as everything else. What you're doing is holding religion up as something that can't be looked at rationally. When rational arguments are given on both sides - that is, the playing field is more even - religion doesn't have anything to stand on. It's built on a mountain of sand and only held upright by a bunch of apologists with toy shovels.
What is there to _really_ see here?
funny, I've been wondering just that about you since you first made your appearance.
But I don't see him either making strides in research
one, I rather doubt you have the slightest clue about what he's working on at the moment, and two, his primary interest is in teaching and writing, not research. As such, you can easily go read some of his essays on various topics in science, and readily see why he so often gets invited to speak at various public and private science meetings.
How many speaking engagements have you been invited to over the last year?
hmm?
as to "driving web traffic", do you understand what that means when you say it?
here, let me provide an analogy for you:
If a writer can single-handedly improve the readership of a newspaper, it must mean what he is saying has an impact.
You can disagree with Paul, but you're a complete moron to suggest there is nothing there.
It's truly strange you choose to exhibit jealously in this fashion, but that being the only remarkable thing about you worth noting...
heres me :
Dear President Bruininks,
I am writing to you in support of Professor PZ Myers whose witty, caustic and occasionally irreverent blog has been a source of much enjoyment and education over the course of the last 2 years. I have learnt an enormous amount about evolution through his blog, and were I an american citizen I would probably consider moving to Morris and enroling my daughter in your institution to ensure she gets a suitably sustained and comprehensive exposure to critical thinking. As it happens we live in Sweden, and her entire education will be fully paid for by the godless state (and a small stipend provided during her studies), but hopefully the thought counts for something:-)
As you are all too painfully aware, the forces of unreason and regression have recently (although I suspect this is not the first time) turned their beady eyes on PZ, and are focusing on you and your faculty as well. Hang in there, you have our prayers ... no wait thats not right ... you have my actual real world and should things get genuinely nasty, financial support.
So while there are pros and cons to having a celebrity on your staff, you can rest assured that in this instance, the pros outweigh the cons quite considerably.
Regards,
@wnelson
Do you even know what it takes to get tenure? In any case, being articulate and crafting rational literature is still something I want to see. I guess it's not your cup of tea.
I wish I was as smart as PZ.
Re: #127, "You know what the worst thing is? Communion wafers aren't very tasty. They're cheap and cardboardy."
I grew up Jewish, so I've never tried them, but Catholic friends who had tried Matzoh told me it tasted a little like the Eucharist. Matzoh is tasteless and so dry that it sucks all the moisture out of your mouth. It's completely bland unless you pile a bunch of (most likely non-Kosher for Passover) stuff on top of it.
If communion wafers really do taste like that, it's a whole other theological mystery. I mean, why would god want to taste like that and not like, say, chocolate?
(Oh, right, because Catholics like making people miserable.)
Um, guys...
... it doesn't take either much Plato, Kant, Hume, Pascal, Kierkegaard, Sartre, Wittgenstein or Barth, Augustine, Calvin, Plantinga, or Aquinas to note that Dr. Myers has no clue as regards philosophy.
No one, who has broken their head on Heidegger, would ever show the carelessness that Myers shows. He is simply either in this for the buzz, or he is completely out of his depth.
"Keep neither a blunt knife, nor an ill-disciplined looseness of tongue."
-Epictetus
... it doesn't take either much Plato, Kant, Hume, Pascal, Kierkegaard, Sartre, Wittgenstein or Barth, Augustine, Calvin, Plantinga, or Aquinas to note that Dr. Myers has no clue as regards philosophy
it takes far less than that to note that you simply have no clue, period.
However, thanks for another example, if ever so slightly tangential, of the Courtier's reply.
"But I don't see him either making strides in research, or paying any attention to the rules of philosophy or apologetics"
Rule of Apologetics #1: If you have to apologize for something, sop doing it.
I really haven't noticed PZ getting into philosophy. It's usually only brought up in the comments by pretentious jackasses who like to name drop.
Really, wnelson, do us all a favor and learn proper grammer before trotting out all the big names.
Yes, yes, I know you know these people were philosophers. You get a cracker, happy?
Ah yes, Bill Donohue... Here are just a sample of his "wisdom:"
"Hollywood is controlled by secular Jews who hate Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular. It's not a secret, OK? And I'm not afraid to say it. That's why they hate this movie. It's about Jesus Christ, and it's about truth. It's about the Messiah.... Hollywood likes anal sex. They like to see the public square without nativity scenes. I like families. I like children. They like abortions. I believe in traditional values and restraint. They believe in libertinism. We have nothing in common. But you know what? The culture war has been ongoing for a long time. Their side has lost."
Silly.
Actually the problem there is that Jews don't like snuff films.
I don't get it. Jesus was dragged off and nailed to a cross and we're told his father arranged this crucifixion for our benefit (he gave his only son - who died for our sins - didn't he?). He then was miraculously resurrected.
Given this, how can he possibly be even remotely bothered by someone taking a tiny, tiny, tiny piece of him away from a church? Why is anyone offended by this given how minor it is compared to what God put Jesus through? And if, for some reason, it really is as offensive as we're lead to believe, then why wasn't the culprit turned into a pillar of salt or something? Why do humans have to threaten sin in order to set things straight?
PZ is an absolute fool!
Have people actually read his hyperbolic - semi-hysteric - replies on here?
In case you don't realize, calls for hate crimes against religious groups does not fly for a public uni employee...even in the U.K.
Keep digging that hole, Myers, I highly doubt your academic career ever comes up after the heads of the university read the vile bull on here!
So long, you wanker -- call it survival of the fittest ;)
Not only did you hurt a cracker's feelings, I understand the communion wafer was somewhat put off as well.
THANK YOU, I'll be here all week, try the veal, etc.
And apologies if someone's said it already, this thread is WAY too damn long for me to comb through looking for an asinine joke.
"it doesn't take either much Plato, Kant, Hume, Pascal, Kierkegaard, Sartre, Wittgenstein or Barth, Augustine, Calvin, Plantinga, or Aquinas to note that Dr. Myers has no clue as regards philosophy."
Maybe he doesn't give a shit about Plato, Kant, Hume, Pascal, Kierkegaard, Sartre, Wittgenstein or Barth, Augustine, Calvin, Plantinga, or Aquinas.
This isn't a philosophy blog, it's a science blog. Did I mention that you're an asshole?
Dobbs, I thought you people invented English. Why is it that you do not know what "hate crime" means?
There is still hope for you Mr. Myers. You refer to the Body of Christ in the Eucharist as both "consecrated" and a "goddamn cracker." Putting aside for the moment the logical inconsistency of an item being both consecrated and damned by the same God at the same time, you at least concede that there is a God to damn or consecrate. You apparently have no more regard for his wrath than you do for Catholics and our sensibilities, but at least you admit his reality. I dread the thought of what you will think of your current desires if that hope ever comes to fruition. (Is that literate and logical enough for you, sir? And from a Catholic no less.)
Dobbs = sock puppet.
I hate all religions INCLUDING Islam. If you read anything on this site and others like it you would see that. They are all irrational and evoke sick responses such as the one against the UCF student.
I just desecrated a whole box of CONSECRATED cheez-its (I had my friend bless it with his magic). I must have just committed genocide because I think I'm going to throw up. Or maybe that's just the massive amount of cheese. I dunno, I can't decide. What's the rational explanation?
PZ will not lose his job over this. Nor will he be subject to any hate crime laws. Honestly, what would the prosecution say? I'd like to see them argue the properties of the "host" in court. Or maybe they will argue that multitudes of Christians were offended and threatened by visiting his PERSONAL site. Yeah, that'll work.
Get over it. Any Christian that is mad over this situation is actually frightened because people are finally speaking out against their inane beliefs and placing them in the public square for all to examine. Hurts doesn't it? To see your silly magic-man stories brought to the forefront of public discourse even though it has enjoyed hundreds of years on the fringe. No longer will you get that undeserved privilege. If you want to spout mystical garbage in a public fashion your going to have to substantiate it. Keep it in your heads or get in line.
PZ, I'll be sending my letter. A letter of recommendation for an academic medal for freedom of expression. I wish I was so lucky to have a professor like you at UNH.
DGS, a person doesn't have to be an idiot Catholic like yourself or any other kind of theist to use the expression god damn.
Dobbs wrote:
If you had even half a clue as to what was going on here you wouldn't have written what you wrote.
To incite a hate crime he has to (read this part carefully) actually incite people to commit a crime. If people do what he asks - which is take the communion wafer out of the church - they are not committing a crime.
If they were breaking into the church and damaging things - that would be a hate crime. Assaulting priests? That would be a hate crime.
Taking what someone puts in your mouth and not swallowing it? Not a crime.
Dobbs, you're a damn fool. Last I checked, desecrating a fucking cracker isn't a hate crime. That one won't fly in a court of law...a rational court, that is. And you should go back to a sociology class. You obviously have no clue as to what constitutes a hate crime.
Anyone calling for PZ's life or wanting to have him fired is a piss-poor Christian (and a hypocrite). Last I checked, Jesus never asked for any of his followers to kill anyone or to get them fired from their job. You need to stop calling yourselves Christians.
And PZ, I emailed President Bruininks. I told him how much I support you and how much of an asset you are to UMM. I also got you some help from a political message board. :)
Putting aside for the moment the logical inconsistency of an item being both consecrated and damned by the same God at the same time
congratulations on noticing something so patently absurd, but obvious, that HE ALREADY CHANGED IT.
fecking moron.
Some people complain about liberals not being tolerant of absolutely everything.
Just because I'm generally tolerant doesn't mean I'm tolerant of everything. Belief in magic, religion and superstition is stupid, and I will not refrain from saying so just because those who have such beliefs might be hurt.
Are Catholics are hurt by going to physics or chemistry class, learning about the nature of matter and the atmoic theory, etc., that contradicts the idea of transubstantiation?
Are Biblical literalists hurt by having to study physics, chemistry, biology and geology in school?
Perhaps. But if they are insulted to learn about reality, then why do they claim to worship the guy who created it all?
"(Is that literate and logical enough for you, sir?) "
Actually, it's completely shallow sophistry. And this sentence: "I dread the thought of what you will think of your current desires if that hope ever comes to fruition." makes absolutely no sense. But thanks for playing.
Looks like KKK has a new name... Dobbs.
Again... if you commit a crime against a person motivated by hate, its a hate crime.
If you commit a non-criminal act against a wafer, motivated by hate or love or boredom, it is not a hate crime, not any kind of crime.
Sorry about that you stupid deluded fuck, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.
BobC: "Maybe he doesn't give a shit about Plato, Kant, Hume, Pascal, Kierkegaard, Sartre, Wittgenstein or Barth, Augustine, Calvin, Plantinga, or Aquinas.
This isn't a philosophy blog, it's a science blog. Did I mention that you're an asshole?"
You are a cranky cock-sucking atheist aren't you!
Yes, who cares about the top thinkers of our time....when compared to ignorant lab rats like PZ Myers?
Myers has NO CLUE about philosophy or religion and, from what I gather, neither do you...
letter sent from UK supporting PZ.Will ritually slaughter some matzos later as have no access to catholic wafers. I believe the same imaginary pal is involved in any event.
@DGS
Do you know what sarcasm is? And where does PZ say god is real? Learn to read. One last thing, fuck your sensibilities. They are the product of centuries of plutocratic religious domination.
Dobbs, revealing his true colours, wrote:
Dobbs, You sound a little optimistic. Are you...coming onto him?
Myers has NO CLUE about philosophy or religion
why is it poor religious apologists have nothing but the Courtier's reply to offer?
thankfully, you morons are a dying breed. Oh, it might take a few generations longer, but like racists, your kind will share the same fate.
oh, why don't you fuckwits analyze the philosophy in this:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/12/the_courtiers_reply.php
Oh, I was waiting for this one... someone saying that the use of the phrase "god-damned" means you are somehow acknowledging the existence of their favorite sky spook.
Hey, go ahead and think that, whatever gets you off.
Whoops. My use of that expression doesn't actually mean that I think that your taking delight in your stupid senseless "gotcha" over an expression will actually cause you to acheive orgasm.
Though it just might. You people are pretty freaking weird, after all.
Fuck you Dobbs. How many names have you been using on this thread, asshole.
"Myers has NO CLUE about philosophy or religion and, from what I gather, neither do you..."
I know enough about religions to know that religious people are shitheads like yourself.
What name are you going to use next time, Mr. Sock Puppet.
You are a cranky cock-sucking atheist aren't you!
- Posted by: Dobbs
Nice mouth Dobbs! You take the eucharist with that thing?
Dobbs is obviously a Neanderthal. His only "comeback" is
"You are a cranky cock-sucking atheist aren't you!"
How pitiful. Reminds me of a small-town redneck.
Oh, and I'd like to apologise to Neanderthals. Dobbs is beneath them.
Don't go all Freud on me, Wowbagger. (is that the nickname for your mum, btw?)
PS - you do know who Freud is, don't you? A "scientist" of great import...
"You are a cranky cock-sucking atheist aren't you!"
Well, I know *I* am. Oh, I'm sorry, did you mean that as an insult?
"Yes, who cares about the top thinkers of our time....when compared to ignorant lab rats like PZ Myers?"
Gee, did you figure out that these were "top thinkers" all by your self or did wikipedia tell you? It struck me as strange when you decided to list Hume. And many people happen to think that Myers has a better grasp of reality than the people whose names you dropped.
The world has gone mad when people will threaten somebody over a symbol. For you Catholics out there, let me point out that if someone doesn't literally believe that the Host becomes the Body of Christ, then they can't really be guilty of a mortal sin, right? It becomes mortal only to those who are invested in the whole bit.
Ah, you chaps are fun!
Got bullied on the playground a bit in school?
Lead you to embrace these harsh dogmatic, materialistic theories as a coping mechanism for the abandonment in the world?
Or for reasons of superiority to hold above peers who reject you?
Freud would have a field day with you wankers!
So long...
Dobbs @ #779 (lying because the clueless bastard turns up again at #793.)
"So long, you wanker ".
..yeah see you, I'm shedding tears of sadness already, don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out.
Oh, and take all your other fucking ridiculous identities with you.
PS - you do know who Freud is, don't you? A "scientist" of great import...
why yes, we do.
He was the one who first recognized the patterns of psychological defense mechanisms that came to be called projection and denial.
something we find associated with religionuts like yourself pretty much 100% of the time.
In fact, you can congratulate yourself, and those like you, for causing a resurgence of interest in what Freud had to say about denial and projection.
Okay, I say we all ignore Dobbs, for obvious reasons.
There are no rules it's fabricated BS top to bottom. Grow up.
Dobbs, impotent closeted homophobe, wrote:
Why doesn't it surprise me you're far too ignorant to be familiar with the works of Douglas Adams? Oh, that's right - his books don't have pictures. Well, okay, Last Chance to See does, and so does The Deeper Meaning of Liff, but that's different.
Anyway, you talk about Freud as if you're familiar with the name - if you knew anything about what he actually thought or wrote you'd realise the irony, having described someone as 'cock-sucking'.
Dobbs is aware of all philosophical traditions.
Dobbs
"Don't go all Freud on me, Wowbagger. (is that the nickname for your mum, btw?)"
..and with that last mature question it is utterly confirmed for me that Dobbs etc is a 15 year old, acne plagued virgin sitting at home on his parents computer trying to play with the big folk becuase he just got dissed in some role playing forum.
Fuck off teenager.
Oh, I don't know, gdlchmst. I can't remember the last time we had a good insult about someone's mum on Pharyngula.
And you'll know they are Christians by their love. By their love, yes, you'll know they are Christians by their love.
Heartening to see how just vaguely doubting or critisizing brings out the best in the religious,the veil of love and tolerance is dropped and the ugly face of intolerance,hate and sheer intellectual dishonesty and ignorance is reveiled.
Gosh,this thread has been a learning curve !! (call me naive lol)
Still here!
Ichthyic writes: "He was the one who first recognized the patterns of psychological defense mechanisms that came to be called projection and denial."
Ah, yes - Totem and Taboo, The Future of an Illusion...
Ichthyic, you sorry sap! I was only toying with you - Freud and the vast majority of his theories were rejected decades ago.
Keep up the promotion of debunked theory, Ichthyic! Doing good work!
HA!
Atheists really are a bit pompous, aren't they? ;)
Wouldn't this address http://www.catholicleague.org/feedback.php be a good place to vent opinions about the moronic vacuity of these cat'lickers?
Btw: Is it a sacrilege to not eat chocolate Easter bunnies at Easter as well? What about Easter eggs?
It becomes mortal only to those who are invested in the whole bit.
the funny thing is, I always thought it was only supposed to be those who, through "training" became "invested in the whole bit" that were supposed to be allowed to have communion to begin with. In fact, back in the bad old days when I was a practicing Lutheran (yes that was over 25 years ago), all the Catholic friends I had specifically told me that while I could visit their services, I could NOT take communion.
So, was that particular church at UCF breaking with CC tradition to allow someone who really wasn't "trained" to take communion to begin with?
...and if they took it so unseriously as to allow an "untrained" individual to take communion, seems they are the ones who should be ripped by Donohue for "taking liberties" with the Eucharist.
with well over 2000 posts on the subject, I'm sure someone has raised this point already?
So, then, Dobbs, can you explain why, as an alleged representative of Jesus Christ, aka "The Prince of Peace," you are going about insulting people and judging people based solely on a malicious and totally untruthful stereotype? I mean, didn't Our Lord, Jesus Christ, admonish His followers repeatedly to "love (their) neighbors"? Or, do you come from such a broken household that making obscene judgments is your idea of "loving (your) neighbors"?
"Atheists really are a bit pompous, aren't they?"
It only appears that way to you because you are so ignorant.
Must go now. Irony meter broke.
Great - now we've only got 4 days left to think up and print some Jebus Cracker T-shirts in time to annoy the Godbots at WYD in Sydney...
hmmmm...
"mmmm, Jeesus - have you got any Salsa?"
how about...
"THIS JESUS IS MAKING ME THIRSTY!"
Dobbs,
So you're a liar as well as an impotent, closeted homophobe?
Colour me unsurprised.
I sent my letter of support from the medical faculty of Magdeburg, Germany. It pretty much states in polite words that a "religious agenda vs. free speech"-thing shouldn't have any meaning in judging P.Z. Myer's position at the university.
Wait, you're toying with Ichthyic? Ichthyic, you hussy! I thought he was flirting with *me*!
Do you atheist fools ever look in the mirror. You always rant about the right wing Christian conspiracy and religious fundamentalism in the United States just because the vast majority of Americans are not faithless, hopeless, drones like you want them to be. You atheist fundamentalists would gladly try to outlaw religion if you could in the process of creating your socialist government that would be the death of this country.
ProudTheist = Dobbs.
So...
Has anyone else read this entire thread thus far?
Did anyone tell KKKatheist that the KKK was responsible for some of the worst persecutions of Catholics in the U.S.? Or is there some deeper 'gotcha' that I'm missing at 2:23 in the morning?
Ichthyic, you sorry sap! I was only toying with you - Freud and the vast majority of his theories were rejected decades ago.
You need to keep up, if you want to play the informed idiot, dobbsy, from when he first formulate the idea of projection, until today, the concept has been recognized as valid.
'76:
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/1322157286-30869079/content~content=a7…
'92
http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst;jsessionid=L3GXX982m8PHMfShGtb…
and since then, there has been MUCH interest in what Freud had to say on the issue.
what you are apparently confused about (among the many things that confuse you), is that Freud's concepts are still utilized and researched today, even if PSYCHOANALYSIS itself is no longer utilized much as a practical approach to psychology.
You'd know that, if you weren't just a fatuous moron.
the study of psychological defense mechanisms still proceeds apace. You could volunteer as a datapoint!
Getting a bit nasty in here.
Lets all hug and hold hands, forget about this whole ordeal.
"You atheist fundamentalists would gladly try to outlaw religion if you could in the process of creating your socialist government that would be the death of this country."
I know I would, but I know that is not the majority view held by my fellow atheists. And FYI, Socialism is like crack, its addicting.
Hi, first post here.
Dobbs, none of the intellectual figures you cited earlier put forward any scientific evidence for the God of Abraham or any god for that matter. That's the relevant issue. You can't simply talk the claims of any given religion into existence--there must be some underlying hard evidence. Otherwise it's mere rhetoric and could be used to prop up any outlandish belief.
That's the key issue. The onus is on the believer to demonstrate why the miraculous claims of the Bible should be considered as anything more than folklore. We atheists may simply sit with our arms folded in the meantime.
ProudTheist - wow, there's a shock!
Please highlight the post where PZ or anyone else calls for the outlawing of religion or the 'creation' of a socialist government.
No, the majority of Americans are faithful, hopeless drones. That's the problem.
ProudTheist,
We've read and heard what you theist have to say. Most of us have been one of you. You clearly haven't nor want to. You will most probably ignore any argument we "atheists" tell you. You have no regard for evidence, only for authority and scripture, "loyalty" to the tribe and superstition. How the hell do you want us not to be upset that guys like you run the country?
Americans are not faithless, hopeless, drones like you want them to be.
that's a perfect example of projection, since it's the religious that teach people to be drones, and the atheists that teach them to think for themselves.
see?
now, typically, whenever we see the terminally deluded exhibit such remarkable projection, it is followed almost immediately by denial.
expect an obvious form of denial to issue from "Legion" any minute now.
Stanton,
Would you have me explain faith (which you would ridicule and slander off-the-bat) ...... or, alternatively, I could have a little fun and attack you on your particular dogmatic and offensive comments on this thread (which, in turn, offends and "victimizes" you).
You would fault me either way!
I respect the constitution, so I would leave religions alone, but I would more strongly enforce the Establishment Clause. No god stuff in any government or public school.
Lets all hug and hold hands, forget about this whole ordeal.
"Everyone - Back in the pile!"
Ah, so it comes out. It's not the atheism that frightens you so, it's the socialism.
Would you care to explain what the tenets of fundamentalist atheism are? You'll have to couch it in plain language, though. I fear that, as a lazy atheist, I have not reviewed the philosophical passages prerequisite for carrying on in a suitably pompous and elitist manner.
I mean, you do seem to care a great deal about precision in language, so, could you tell us precisely what defines a fundamentalist atheist?
Dobbs, lying impotent closeted homophobe, wrote:
My money's on Stanton. With one rhetorical hand tied behind his (or her) back.
Dobbs @838
Don't just say you will explain faith and not actually do it. I can only imagine that it exceeds your verbal capacity.
Project, much?
Hey proudtheist/kkk/k8/nyc/dobbs...
please name the Catholic that atheists are trying to get fired for expressing his opinion.
please name the Catholic that atheists are sending death threats to.
Hypocrite asshole moron.
Must go now. Irony meter broke.
Everyone needs to recognize what that really means:
In every instance where an irony meter has exploded because of some demented fuckwit, it has always been because of their near perfect use of projection as their only means of "safe" communication. It's most certainly not because of a deliberate use of irony on the part of creobots (hell, they don't even understand irony or satire to begin with).
seriously, think about every time you have thought about extreme irony exhibited by some fuckwit, and then apply the standard definition of psychological projection.
see?
seriously, it's the single biggest reason why there has been a huge resurgence in interest in psychology with standard psychological defense mechanisms, compartmentalization, and the old concept of "cognitive dissonance".
"if you weren't just a fatuous moron"
Ichy, I am torn to pieces! I thought we were friends....
As for Adamant Atheist, I was not the poster who created the philosophers list; however, I would add Charles Taylor, Philip Rieff, and Alasdair Macintyre.
Don't be such a dogmatic materialist...
What I find the funniest about this whole "body of christ" is,we are not talking about something thats been a given in xtianity throughout the millenia,from the humble beginnings of some dude walking out of Mesopotamia,but something that was decided and decreed at some point(1215 or 477 or whenever,i really dont care),by a committee !!
So here we have people that have enough belief in reality to be able to use their toaster in the morning,or a computer to write hate-mail,but they follow the decree of some medieval committee to the letter,and have been brainwashed enough to treat a piece of starch as the body of their dog !!
*shakes head*
Dobbs, you do not appear to notice that that was my first comment on this thread. In fact, that was my first comment on this blog for several weeks. So, please tell me what previous other "dogmatic and offensive comments" you think I have made on this thread.
Please tell me why you think me, a fellow brother in Christ, would ridicule and slander faith "off-the-bat." If you wish to attack me in order to soothe your own ego, please be my guest. After all, Jesus did extort His followers to offer up the other cheek to those who would attack us.
I thought we were friends....
see?
denial.
and even quicker than I expected.
You need to see a therapist to deal with that huge level of dissonance you are burdened with, Legion.
"As for Adamant Atheist, I was not the poster who created the philosophers list; however, I would add Charles Taylor, Philip Rieff, and Alasdair Macintyre."
Funny how we get you guys mixed up, isn't it.
@Ichthyic
Sigh... so much analysis from one sentence. This is why I prefer the natural sciences.
I remember the story of Legion. What a horrid waste of good pork.
Ichy,
It is called sarcasm, jackass.
Wow! How did you ever get so pedantic and humor-free? Must be a blast at cocktail parties!
As for Stanton, I was generalizing the tone of atheists on this thread and was not speaking of you directly.
OK - it's late - you guys have fun without me. (good luck!)
I noticed the words "dogmatic" and "materialist" are used only by creationists, for example Dobbs, or whatever he's calling himself at this moment. The christian creationist organization called the Discovery Institute uses the words "dogmatic" and "materialist" in almost every paragraph they write.
@BobC
Yeah, them fundamentalists have a very short vocab indeed.
You atheist fundamentalists would gladly try to outlaw religion if you could in the process of creating your socialist government that would be the death of this country.
Wrong. We'd like to keep religion out of rational and political thinking because it isn't rational or tolerant. We'd also like to keep it from impairing other people's rights or threatening their lives, positions or freedom. In fact, a theistic government is a very likely candidate for killing your country - by denying proper research (including such concerning global warming, alternative fuel resources, food improvement, animal and environmental protection, etc.) or wasting research funds on unsubstantiated pseudoscience instead of real medical research - and suppressing the human rights of non-religious people, homosexuals, pregnant women and children. THAT is what kills a country.
Then please explain why you were addressing me directly when you were accusing the "tone of atheists on this thread" of instinctively slandering and ridiculing faith.
Dobbs,
Apologies for mixing you two up then. My primary point was that it's not terribly relevant to note that intelligent individuals have devoted a lot of time to discussing religion. None of them ever went an inch towards verifying the underlying claims of any religion.
At any rate, I'm not sure how being skeptical about ancient and current rumors of miracles renders one a "dogmatic materialist." Surely we can agree upon certain parameters for separating fact from fiction. It's why we embrace vaccinations and dismiss astrology. To suggest that we somehow can't weigh in too heavily lest we seem dogmatic, well, strikes me as obfuscation. Is a claim well-supported or not?
As far as Donohue goes, I think this is a perfect example of religious craziness gone wild. He and his church consider a cracker sacred. I don't think it's dogmatic of me to point out that in all observable respects it has no extraordinary characteristics. They have no better reason to suspect otherwise than me, just their credulity and tradition.
And certainly no one deserves to be harmed over such unsubstantiated foolishness.
Sigh... so much analysis from one sentence
it's not just one sentence; I've been noting patterns for years now.
It's always the same with these guys.
always.
little but constant projection, followed by doses of denial.
it really only takes one sentence to recognize it, regardless of the fact that "legion" has posted huge amounts of projection for reference.
There is obviously something underlying the overutlization of psychological defense mechanisms in these people.
This is why I prefer the natural sciences.
oh, I do too, being a behavioral ecologist. doesn't mean I don't immediately recognize the utility of other disciplines. Moreover, pyschology utilizes the scientific method, just like any of the natural sciences.
I am not formulating a hypothesis in an internet thread. However, there are many that have formally addressed this issue in the journals. I'm not pulling this stuff out of my ass.
You should take a look yourself.
raiko scribbles:
"In fact, a theistic government is a very likely candidate for killing your country"
Funny, I thought atheists such as Pol Pot or Castro or Mao were the perfect candidates for killing your country (literally)
I guess you "free thinkers" can "rationalize" anything...even mass murder in the name of progress.
Really, you people are so blinded by your theories, it is amazing!
Last post, really.
It is called sarcasm, jackass.
sarcasm used as a form of denial, you mean. You avoided addressing the issue pointed out to you.
As for Stanton, I was generalizing the tone of atheists on this thread and was not speaking of you directly.
I'm sure you didn't mean to lie, which means that this is another example of denial on your part.
classic.
Here in America we have a secular government and a capitalist economy. That's what works. Communism doesn't work and theocracies don't work.
Last post, really.
more denial.
So, why haven't you bothered to explain why you originally lumped me in with the rest of the atheists on this thread (several of whom I consider friends) if you never intended to lump me in with the rest of the atheists on this thread, or can you name any actual atheists in America who want to change the laws of the land in order commit mass murder of religious peoples?
Ichthyic,
I'm afraid that I am rather lazy and only ever read the psychology papers that generate universal attention. My daily journal reading consists of mainly chemistry. And when I feel particularly brisk, I tackle some physical chemistry.
Listen, Ichy,
Not every one is in the field of behavior ecology / philosophy or theology; however, that does not automatically negate the attempts to point out the fallacies of your particular dogma.
Science cannot not disprove the existence of God - no matter how much you would like it too or how much jargon you throw into it.
Also, I bet you get a bit defensive when defending scientific theory from desconstructionism etc. It is not an unusual response to aggressive attacks on particular forms of knowledge.
And, why exactly are you posting on here in the middle of the night?
""I remember the story of Legion. What a horrid waste of good pork."
OK. now that was funny...
"Funny, I thought atheists such as Pol Pot or Castro or Mao were the perfect candidates for killing your country (literally)"
If you think this, then you obviously don't know your history very well.
#868 "If you think this, then you obviously don't know your history very well."
This can't possibly surprise you, though.
Anyway, I guess Dobbs is just a troll. He's too blatantly a petulant asshole. Real True Christians usually try to hide that side of themselves behind self-righteousness and, when they're really irked, divinely inspired death threats.
@ No 827(names seem rather interchangeable tonight,i notice)
//You atheist fundamentalists would gladly try to outlaw religion if you could in the process of creating your socialist government that would be the death of this country.//
Im glad to tell you,demented fuckwit,that you and the likes of you will be the end of your country ! Cant wait.
Oh,and btw,what would a socialist(i guess you mean liberal) government do? Give people health insurance? God forbid !!
Animal behavior, eh, Ichy?
It must really bug you that you cannot explain human behavior in complete scientific terms -- I mean it must be very frustrating for you...considering how we are only animals and all.
I can see you try very hard, though, esp. in chat rooms!
Keep at it, buddy, one day I am sure you will have the humans...I mean, monkeys....eating right out of your hand.
Ciao for now.
Professor Myers, I hope this is Ok, I have sent President Bruininks the below email regarding this fiasco.
I saddens me that you have been threatened so much over something so trivial and it annoys me that people like Bill Donohue persist in making it worse by adding fuel to the growing fire. I support you fully, you have done nothing wrong and this whole sad episode hopefully will show just how ridiculous the claims of the religious are getting.
All the Best!
Philip
Dear Sir
I am sending you this email in support of Professor PZ Myers as a result of the aggressive actions over the Eucharist Wafer fiasco that recently occurred in Florida.
Catholic League president Bill Donohue has called for a massive witch hunt in order to get Professor Myers fired from his position at Minnesota University and I would like to voice my opinion that Mr Donohue's unfounded views be ignored completely.
His main reason for this is "It is hard to think of anything more vile than to intentionally desecrate the Body of Christ." after a recent article posted by Professor Myers on his blog site in which he joked about what he would do to a wafer, making his point that it is just a wafer and not the Body of Christ as Mr Donohue claims.
Unless Mr Donohue can in fact provide irrefutable evidence that any normal wafer that has supposedly been blessed by a holy man of the Catholic religion then actually becomes the undisputed body of Jesus Christ I suggest that he call of this hunt and leave Professor Myers alone. Whilst Mr Donohue is entitled to his highly improbable claims, so is Professor Myers entitled to voice his opinion on the matter without resorting to hate speech, which I have seen no evidence of so far.
It has also come to my attention that Professor Myers has received hate mail and death threats over this, something which will only be stirred up more by the antics of Mr Donohue if he is allowed to continue provoking such needless behaviour.
I do hope this matter can be sorted out calmly and without any more need to provoke such angry reactions, there is no need for it whatsoever.
Yours Sincerely
Philip Priestley,
Maidenhead, Berkshire, England
Reading Dobbs' posts, it feels like he's gunning for the "Trying WAAAAAY Too Hard" awards or something.
I keep picturing an old, battle-weary boat motor struggling to keep working, throwing up nasty plumes of smoke. It's loud, offensive and well past its usefulness, but you've got admire that stubborn persistence.
What particular "dogma" does Ichthyic hold? That "Truth is tantamount," or that "people who are belligerent and rude while demanding respect do not deserve any respect"?
So then please demonstrate how Science automatically proves the existence of God if it was never about proving or disproving or even providing a statement about God in the first place.
Ichthyic happens to have the habit of getting verbally belligerent when people attack scientific theories or even other people with false accusations, slander, moronic insults, and lies. Please explain why cheerfully accusing people on this thread of being "cock-suckers" is an example of "deconstructionism."
Why do you presume that you have the authority to demand why Ichthyic chooses to use his own computer whenever and however he pleases?
Listen, Ichy,
like I said in #863, your wignoff in post in 860 was denial, and you simply couldn't resist proving me correct.
that does not automatically negate the attempts to point out the fallacies of your particular dogma.
actually, yes it does. If your "fallacies" are built on nothing but projection, your arguments are De facto self-defeating, since the fallacies all lie with your own position to begin with.
"Oh,and btw,what would a socialist(i guess you mean liberal) government do? Give people health insurance? God forbid !!"
Oh, they could do more than that, redistribution of wealth, deconstruction of existing class structure, and paving the way for true communism, just a few things that socialism aims to do.
a) Do you honestly know what sort of animals Ichthyic studies the behaviors of?
b) Why do you insist on posting if you claimed in previous posts that you were going to stop posting? And isn't it rather hypocritical of you to continue posting after you demanded to know why Ichthyic continued posting at this late hour?
Actually, democratic socialism is a fairly tame political philosophy. Socialist parties are basically center-left in many countries. It's definitely unfair to equate that brand of socialism with more rigid Marxist-Leninist, communistic thought.
"Actually, democratic socialism is a fairly tame political philosophy. Socialist parties are basically center-left in many countries. It's definitely unfair to equate that brand of socialism with more rigid Marxist-Leninist, communistic thought."
Perhaps, but that is why socialism originally arose.
Science cannot not disprove the existence of God
by it's very definition, the concept of God is not formulatable into a testable hypothesis (also the reason "intelligent design" fails), so not only does science not disprove the existence of your God, it does not even need to try.
nor does it need to try to disprove the existence of unicorns, Zuess, or the flying spaghetti monster.
atheism doesn't result from a scientific attempt to disprove any particular deity, but from the obvious lack of any independent evidence for any deities whatsoever, no matter how far back in history one goes.
If you wish to maintain your concept of god arises from "faith", that's fine and dandy. However, you most certainly will be called on to support any notions of an evidentiary nature for your fictional deity.
just like any rational person would do if you claimed unicorns live in your backyard.
your pathetic attempt to equate atheism with science is noted, and it is stupid.
It must really bug you that you cannot explain human behavior in complete scientific terms -- I mean it must be very frustrating for you...considering how we are only animals and all.
actually, it doesn't bug me at all. We haven't fully explained all non-human animal behavior, for that matter. Which, of course, is one of the reasons I went into the field to begin with. Since then, I've learned many wonderful and fantastic things about why animals behave the way they do, and it's taken me to many exotic locales.
some of us are actually interested in learning what is REALLY going on, instead of projecting our fantasies onto reality, like you do.
What have YOU done to try and figure out why animals behave the way they do?
read a "2000" year old book that talks about how you can breed striped animals by placing striped sticks near them when they mate?
uh huh.
what will you tell your kids (we all hope that I'm speaking hypothetically) about why any specific animal behaves the way it does, eh?
or will you assume your progeny will just be happy being as ignorant as yourself?
Stan,
I am going to ignore you....I am not sure if this is the result of denial or projection; however, I am sure Ichy will let me know because I still have a bone to pick with them:
Ichy,
Are you a robot? Artificial intelligence? OR, have you been locked into a Gorilla cage for the past year, recently release, and are now in the process of readjusting (poorly) to human companionship?
Say something vaguely humorous or remotely human to clue me in: project!.....deny!.....anything!
PS - Thanks for the support, I think, OctoberMermaid. Just trying to lighten this dreadful thread up a bit.
What I e-mailed:
"I read PZ Myer's blog every day. He's the only reason that I even know your institution exists. He is a treasure, and you should cherish him."
Oh, they could do more than that, redistribution of wealth, deconstruction of existing class structure, and paving the way for true communism, just a few things that socialism aims to do.
oh please, lets do leave the rampant oversimplified historical revisionisms of a political nature for a thread more closely related to that topic, eh?
with well over 2000 posts in 3 threads, there is obviously quite enough material already to generate sufficient debate with just the topic of catholicism/religion alone.
I am going to ignore you....I am not sure if this is the result of denial or projection;
denial.
Are you a robot? Artificial intelligence? OR, have you been locked into a Gorilla cage for the past year, recently release, and are now in the process of readjusting (poorly) to human companionship?
that's projection.
Just trying to lighten this dreadful thread up a bit.
that's denial.
clear now?
And, why exactly are you posting on here in the middle of the night?
Yeah. Don't you have some, y'know, serious reading to do ;)?
"what will you tell your kids (we all hope that I'm speaking hypothetically) about why any specific animal behaves the way it does, eh?"
Hold it right there, Ichy...
I am Catholic; not a Bible-thumping, gun-toting red-neck.
I adhere to evolution et al. and will use scientific theory to explain the natural world to my future progeny (I'm only 23).
I think the scientists of the Templeton Prize do a nice job - recently Charles Taylor and Michael Heller - of exploring the confluence of social science / physical science and religion.
http://www.templetonprize.org/bios.html
Email sent from a UK reader.
"oh please, lets do leave the rampant oversimplified historical revisionisms of a political nature for a thread more closely related to that topic, eh?"
Aw, but oversimplifying history is so much fun.
Yeah. Don't you have some, y'know, serious reading to do ;)?
nag, nag, nag.
;)
I started today, btw. why do you think I started posting so late?
Email sent from a UK reader.
Dear Dave Mueller:
"I will just say this. Those of you who really WANT to know if there is a God, just ask Him. Try the unbelievers prayer. "God, if you exist, make yourself known to me" "
You know, I did that. Back when I was one of those innocent, bright-eyed little children your god and son-of-god are allegedly so fond of. I wanted to believe in God, and Jesus, and all that jazz, with all my heart. But I never got anything back. Nothing. Zero. Not even a faint warm glow. Which is why I became an atheist at a very early age - after two or three years of praying and believing and trying my best, I felt a bit stupid for trying to convince myself to believe in something that just wasn't there.
Also, dear Christian apologist, plz don't tell me that
a) I just didn't get it, because God was too subtle/mysterious/whatever - if God can't make himself known to a little girl in a way she can understand, then he just ain't all that good at his job
b) I should seek him out again now - sorry, if he wants me to belive, he can come around and smack me up my atheist head. He's supposedly frackin' omnipotent, after all. Besides, it's his turn now.
Maybe it's because I've been civil towards you, and that you fear that attacking me will somehow reveal you to be a hypocrite, as well as the fact that you are wholly incapable of responding to any of the questions I've raised.
Whereas Ichthyic presents a more tempting target for your slander and bigotry simply because he refuses to treat you civilly because you are physically incapable of earning civil treatment.
Now, since transubstantiation is needed to turn the wafer into a piece of Christ, and since it's obviously not transmutation we're dealing with here (since it can easily be proven that the wafer is a 1:1 physical match with a non-consecrated wafer), it must logically (yeah, I know, logic goes out of the window when religion enters, but bear with me here...) follow that the difference between a consecrated and a non-consecrated wafer is that of a modified metaphysical attribute (or, in other words, the presence of a divine component).
Now, catholics, like so many other religious people, believe that their god is omnipotent.
Furthermore, god has to be involved in the transubstantiation, and the ceremony performed by the priest can be no more than a way to call upon god's attention (doesn't the bible say that in god's hands alone lies the divine powers? It'd be pretty weird if priests could turn things into the body of Christ without divine involvement...)
Now, since god is involved in the transubstantiation, and since god is omnipotent, and since god no doubt would be quite upset to see Christ once more desecrated (once, on the cross, was quite enough, thank you very much!), it stands to reason (ok, ok, where religion goes in, reason goes out, but still) that the wafer & wine would remain nothing but such unless consumed by a true believer, in the intended way, during the eucharism ceremony.
The wafer is just a wafer. The wine is just wine. The thing that transubstantiates it is a combination of ceremony (to summon god), belief (to prove that the person taking eucharism is deserving) and a divine act (god actually adding the divine component). Thus, no part of the holy corpus can ever be held "ransom", because it'd either take a non-believer (or a believer that for some reason decides to blaspheme on purpose) AND a mistake from god (who is supposed to be infallible) to allow this to happen.
Now I'd love to hear Donohue admit that his lord has made a mistake, yet this is what he's indirectly admitting.
Of course, I'm probably missing something; I expect that religion provides some nice means allowing god to make mistakes and still be infallible, or similar.
I can understand if the catholics are upset that people don't respect their religious ceremonies and beliefs. What I cannot understand is how they can question their own beliefs in this way. And most of all, I cannot see how they can possibly take upon themselves to make judgement, when their bible says that god alone is to pass judgement (and no matter was Donohue himself believes, I doubt that he's the god that the bible talks about...)
I started today, btw. why do you think I started posting so late?
Oh, no! I was afraid that was the reason! My apologies to all involved - you're needed here :).
So then why do you talk like a Bible-thumping, gun-toting red-neck?
You think that your future progeny will be proud of a man whose greatest accomplishment is accusing atheists he never met of being cock-suckers?
Ichy,
I am feeling a bit constrained with just projection and denial...
Do the monkeys receive a more expansive form of analysis?
Just kidding of course - you know me denial, denial, denial!
It has been fun and somewhat edifying; the Professor is jerk but you guys are OK in my book!
Adios
I think the scientists of the Templeton Prize do a nice job
LOL
and why did you chose to highlight a well know funder of studies regarding things like the efficacy of intercessionary prayer, pray tell?
you're transparent like glass, moron.
oh, btw, did you know that the Templeton Foundation's own funded studies admittedly (by them) don't support that intercessionary prayer has any positive value whatsoever? In fact, in the latest study done on surgical patients a couple years back, it actually had a significantly NEGATIVE impact on healing time, if the patient knew they were being prayed for?
what?
you mean you haven't ever bothered to read their annual research summaries?
for shame.
here, let me help you out; go to the Templeton Foundation site, and search on:
Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP)
have fun.
after that, I wonder if you will still reference what the templeton foundation has to say?
I am Catholic; not a Bible-thumping, gun-toting red-neck.
what makes you think those have to be mutually exclusive?
I suggest that, to make this more pleasant for PZ's Boss, the Pharyngulists who send paper mail actually send it on a nice postcard from wherever they are. At least, he may use those as wall decorations, and it will make him nice souvenirs that he can keep. Plus, this may become some way to show how geographically wide PZ's support base is.
Do the monkeys receive a more expansive form of analysis?
in fact, they do.
which should tell you something.
You too, Stan!
Hey PZ,
Email sent. Don't sweat it, we're all behind you on this.
And people : Don't feed the trolls! They never learn anyways, and you end up cluttering the thread with insults and such.
I presume its not quite the kind discussion you would like to see take place on Pharyngula. (Just apart from the fact its hardly worth your time composing an answer to someone as unfamiliar with civil conversation as 'Dobbs')
Ichy - you really need to get better at picking up what I'm laying down here.
HUMOR!
You, Professor Myers are a damned fool. You are publicly advocating what one of the major world religions considers an act of sacrilege. All that a creationist need now do is point to these abysmally juvenile antics as evidence that adherence to evolutionary science is not based on cool, objective reasons, but on the fact that its most vocal adherents are deeply irrational, bigoted, raving atheists.
PZ has a pattern of "juvenile antics" which was also seen when he got Ken Ham's attention. Didn't get as much attention with that outburst as he has with this most recent one. I'm beginning to think PZ does these antics to stir up emotions in order to get more attention. The response is enormous, something he would have never gotten if he was being professional about his views. It's interesting to note, PZ loves to say "Merry Christmas" and celebrate the holiday every year. Christmas of course comes from these two words "Christ's Mass" which he has recently insulted without any biblical foundation, without any maturity, and it makes him look pretty bad to most of the world, except the choir in here.
Because he's assuming that all red-necks are either Protestants or Calvinists.
I, too, have sent an email and will send the same by snail mail, although as it's coming from Germany, the latter may take a while to arrive.
------------------------------
Dear President Bruininks
I am sure that you are being inundated with messages such as the one I am now writing and I apologize for adding to the problem. However, I feel compelled, for the first time in my life, to write a letter of support for a fellow academic and biologist with whom I have no personal acquaintance. Although I realize that Prof. Myers career is not under threat and assume that you have no intention of reprimanding him in any way, I do feel strongly that it is imperative for you and your office to be seen to clearly and absolutely support Prof. Myers in this matter.
In my opinion, the release of an 'apology over this unfortunate affair' will play directly into the hands of the irrational and anti-scientific forces that wish to impose their standards and beliefs on all others. What is at stake here is not just the public perception of your University (a perception, I may add, that has been dramatically enhanced internationally by Prof. Myers), but also the general principles of free speech and free inquiry in academia. Supporting Prof. Myers in this matter will send an unequivocal message that we will not be gagged and persecuted by those who feel their precious but unfounded beliefs have been insulted by trivial events such as that which sparked this episode.
Please take this opportunity to make a stand against the substantial forces of ignorance and irrationality. You will be loudly and publicly applauded by many thousands of fellow scientists, academics and other rational thinkers throughout the USA and the rest of the world if you do.
Yours sincerely,
-------------------------
Nothing special I know, but it might help.
SteveN
Because he's assuming that all red-necks are either Protestants or Calvinists.
where's Heddle when you actually need him?
Michael, you really need to look into the origins of our Christmas celebrations. Here's a hint: the English puritans forbade them, considering them pagan. Some of us heathens even call the holiday Yule (or Jul).
I'll mail my missive on the morn.
So please explain why we are supposed to think that making obscene accusations against atheists, such as them being cock-suckers or mass-murderers, is supposed to be humorous.
Ichy - you really need to get better at picking up what I'm laying down here.
HUMOR!
there's that denial again.
unless someone else thinks anything you posted had some form of intentional humor in it?
anyone?
now let's be clear, just because you make us laugh AT you, doesn't mean that what you posted was recognizable as deliberate humor.
Michael,
Juvenile antics? What could be more juvenile than pretending to consume a dead legendary figure?
Actually, juvenile isn't quite right. It's utterly bizarre and creepy.
"You, Professor Myers are a damned fool. You are publicly advocating what one of the major world religions considers an act of sacrilege."
You mean, publishing a caricature of Muhammad in a newspaper? But we're all advocating this, right? Don't you?
Evangelicals, actually.
Looks my brand of humor is lost on you monkey-lovers (talking to you Ichy)...
Are all atheists so dry????
I wrote to the President in support, saying that "I understand that there is a campaign to silence your university's vocal critic of irrational behaviour in public life. Dr Myers was recently critical of death threats, made by Catholics, to a man over an item of religious symbolism. He has since been the subject of further death threats.
I trust that you will support freedom of expression."
Good luck, PZ.
I'm beginning to think PZ does these antics to stir up emotions in order to get more attention.
you're close, but you missed it there at the end.
He does it in order to DRAW more attention onto a subject, not to himself.
that he gets more attention because of it is actually not the issue, nor, would I think, does he actually WANT the death threats, calls from the university, constant barrages of hate mail, etc.
it's just part of the job of moving the Overton Window.
Looks my brand of humor is lost on you monkey-lovers (talking to you Ichy)...
actually, what do you think my handle refers to?
hint: it ain't monkeys, clownboy.
Dobbs' brand of humor consists mainly of whining about people not getting his brand of humor. Okay, that is funny.
It's late so I will wish you all good night.
A fishmonger- never would have guessed.
No wonder you are such a defender of this PZ Myers fool...you are his lab stooge!
Well, better find a new clown-fish to study as this is going to be belly up in the unemployment line pretty soon...
1. It takes some level of insanity for a modern educated, otherwise free person to believe in the cracker to real Jesus thing. Not even all other devote Xians sects can buy into that one. It is a belief that merits active correction by the forces for reason (e.g. qualified science professors) for sure.
2. Knowing a lot of Catholics (at least around these parts) and having been one myself, my judgment is that most believe in the ritual as a symbol of their faith (this makes me Catholic) as opposed to "this IS the body and blood of Christ." There is a vast difference - the former a social meme, the latter a somewhat insane delusion.
3. There are many reasons people identify as Catholic (of various sorts RRC, GOC, etc.) and a lot has to do with cultural identity. It is part of "being Greek" or "being Italian", etc. We are talking "roots" for people, "roots" are important and deep in people, and one must gently manipulate roots else unintended harm can ensue.
4. Immature histrionics to show how crazy a crazy belief is are counterproductive. We are dealing with people's cultural roots. There are a host (pun intended) of ways to make the point that the belief is irrational without purposely and willfully offending people for the obvious sake of offending said people; even people that just buy into the symbol of it all and not the transformation will backlash, what is the point of making fervent people who are not. I wish PZ sometimes would be more "Englishman-like" I guess, if you get my drift.
5. HOWEVER I support PZ's right to protest; I wouldn't flag-burn - think it obscures the point and minimizes the effectiveness of the protester. But I defend with my $$'s a protester's right to flag-burn. PZ wants to flag-burn - he has the right. That as a fan I wish he'd be more professorial sometimes in his tone is immaterial.
Ichthic at #914:
I diagree with you that PZ actually doesn't want the attention, either good or bad. When you talk to, or about, people or issues the way he does, why does he expect anything less than the worse verbal abuse one can imagine? To me, it reminds me of a bully or a 7 year-old. It is interesting I think, that I had never heard of PZ, and probably wouldn't have, were it not for his over the top rants. He's the reverend Wright of biology. For the record, though, I don't think he should be fired, nor do I endorse any of the hate mail he's getting; that is equally wrong.
Gee,this Dobbs fellow is a few cans short of a sixpack,isnt he,monkeys,fish,its all too confusing....
The freaks we have attracted here today,unbelievable !
Haha, this is outrageous, yet laughable!
Since I'm in Norway, the snail mail will take forever, so I'll send an e-mail to the president in support.
peace
"Oh, they could do more than that, redistribution of wealth, deconstruction of existing class structure"
You say that like these are bad things.
Here's my letter:
Dear President Bruininks,
I wanted to take a moment and show my support for Prof. PZ Myers. I think that this is particularly important in light of the recent controversy between Prof. Myers and Bill Donohue, so that the university is aware of the outstanding public services performed by Prof. Myers.
I have been reading his personal blog on a regular basis for a few years now. In that time I have found it to be an invaluable resource in the following ways:
- for learning about exciting developments and peer reviewed research in the field of evolutionary biology
- for providing a tireless and well-informed voice of reason and skepticism to counter the numerous pseudo-scientific claims and propaganda put forward by various groups with political agendas that are often divorced from reality
- for providing a voice for the politically disorganized and discriminated minority of americans who are atheists, a cause which resonates deeply with me on a personal level.
Above all, I am most grateful to Prof. Myers for courageously and uncompromisingly telling the truth, and for always siding with the facts even when confronted with threats to his safety. In my opinion, we need many more such critics who are not afraid to speak the truth in the face of opponents who stoop to intimidation, slander and political aggression. He has my admiration as an honest scientist, a superb communicator and as a brave and rational human being.
By taking action against PZ Myers with regard to the content of his personal blog, the University of Minnesota would be simultaneously impinging on his right to reasonable free speech, and capitulating to irrational bigotry.
Regards,
Aatish Bhatia
Physics graduate student
Rutgers University
I.e.: Don't look at the man behind the curtain(!), the one holding the frame; look at the window and at the view through it.
Sastra @ 200 wrote,
"You are worthy of better beliefs."
That's poetry; you are SO quote-mined.
Dear President Bruininks
Prof. PZ Myers is a very good teacher and his blog does a lot popularize science.
While personally I shall never piss on the Koran or desecrate sacred relics, this PC thing can go way too far and soon we may be made feel guilty for eating a steak of a holy cow.
Please dont brand Prof. Myers with a white hot iron as civilized Europeans used to do in the Middle Age.
Risky - ie if their definition of cherishing treasures includes locking them up in small boxes and placing those somewhere which can only be visited by priests. ;-)
Is there not someone we can complain to on the catholic side? Can we not get this Donahue guy excommunicated for spreading violence?
There must be some channel within the catholic church for bringing the church into disrepute.
When you talk to, or about, people or issues the way he does, why does he expect anything less than the worse verbal abuse one can imagine?
have you ever considered, for even the tiniest second, that it was the verbal abuse (and physical threats) over something so patently ludicrous that he intended to call attention to?
no?
hmm, maybe SEF (#924) said it in a way that would seem clearer to you?
A fishmonger- never would have guessed.
no, you wouldn't have (since I had to tell you). Moreover, by definition a fishmonger sells fish. I study them.
No wonder you are such a defender of this PZ Myers fool...you are his lab stooge!
I see, because of course there is only one lab in the world that works on fish.
Well, better find a new clown-fish to study as this is going to be belly up in the unemployment line pretty soon...
Do you know what tenure means?
Care to place a wager on whether or not this "incident" will lead to PZ's termination?
How's 20.00 sound?
oh, wait, was this all an attempt at more humor by you, Mr. assclown?
Ichthyic, I'm sure you were joking about Heddle, but he's actually been hanging out at Evolution blog, arguing the impossibility of infinity. It isn't pretty.
You wouldn't think that someone with a modern education could be stuck in classical Greek ignorance ... but then you'd expect them to have moved beyond their household gods.
I have to admit that I revere my coffee-maker, though.
Of course I will, PZ!
Chris P: "We have stood by too long suffering under the harm that religions have done interfering with the state of the planet. Believing that their god will fix everything including overpopulation."
They're working on the overpopulation thing by telling people that condoms won't prevent HIV infection.
Perhaps a little late, but I've sent this email:
__________________________________
Dear President Bruininks,
I have watched with increasing incredulity the past few day's furore over blog comments made by a Professor at your university, Paul Z. Myers. These comments, while provocative and perhaps uncongenial to those of a religious persuasion (as the Professor's excellent blog often is), served to illustrate an important issue - the need for free speech. This is an increasing problem in a world in which religions have the rather disturbing ability to consor all criticism, citing 'offense' and in this case the bizarre accusation of a 'hate crime' on the part of Professor Myers.
The comments made by Professor Myers were in no way inciting hate or indeed any illegal action at all on the part of his blog readership. They were, as far as I understood, an attempt to characterise the absurdity of the response of some parts of the Catholic community to the 'desecration' of what is, by all accounts, a small piece of wafer. While this may be offensive to Catholics, it in no way gives them a mandate for the voluminous amount of hate mail and death threats Professor Myers has now received, or indeed a mandate to ask the University of Minnesota, Morris to take any action - for in what strange, twisted version of reality are threats made to the Professor's person less important than 'threats' made to a wafer?
By acting on, or even acknowledging, the complaint of Bill Donohue's fundamentalist 'Catholic League', you will be striking free speech a blow by interfering with the personal opinions of one of your staff; you will be encouraging religious bigots to complain all the more shrilly when their delicate sensibilities are offended; you will be succumbing to the request of an organisation (The Catholic League) which seems to live in the time of the Spanish Inquisition and is notorious for its ludicrous, hysterical and absolutely insignificant grievances; and you will be taking a stand against a Professor who, among many other things, and in addition to his work at your University, does an enormous public service by publishing witty, entertaining, and above all educational content about science on the internet. Any of these outcomes would be tragic, and could all have further unfortunate implications and consequences for free speech in America.
I therefore urge you to ignore the complaint and let this rather ridiculous and unfortunate issue end here and now.
Warm regards,
Stuart James Ritchie
Edinburgh, Scotland
__________________________________
All the best, PZ. Don't let these people get you down.
Wowbagger @656 (and others),
To save yourselves future embarrassment, and to better appreciate the spirit of the comment you referenced, you should perhaps read up on the difference between a brownCOAT and a brownSHIRT.
Surprisingly, I'm fine with the invocation of a Reductio ad Hitlerum where the CL is concerned.
Funny, I don't recall Tom Lehrer receiving death threats for this.
There are ethical considerations we could explore here. Are we missing the broader point all this raises? I'd like a secular rationally based credentialed ethicist to look at the cracker scenarios and render an opinions. I am not qualified but as a layman I'd say that the scenarios of this can really give students of ethics a lot to work with.
- judging the value of another's property (must one consider intangibles ethically?)
- advocating something possibly unethical (e.g. stealing - when is it ethical to advocate the otherwise unethical?)
- offending people for sake of offending them (when is that ethical?)
- how do you judge these things - what is the ethical framework?
- etc.
Seriously ... this could be a broader object lesson for us all if we think about it abstractly. I am not making a value-judgment within this post; it poses questions in my head; I would like some thoughts of others (all) and experts more than welcome - on the broader ethical implications of the "cracker scenarios" (original and PZ's proposed).
Maybe it is all trivial 101 ethics and I am sadly ignorant, but I don't mind having my own ignorance eliminated even if I am made to seem unsophisticated. Thanks.
Ichthyic, I'm sure you were joking about Heddle
yes, in case that actually needed to be pointed out.
Is there not someone we can complain to on the catholic side?
Good question.
Even after we have told them that their beliefs are ridiculous and why they are, why do theists don't understand what we're saying? Why are they the ones calling us stupid? How many times do we have to show them before they understand?
One more thing: watch the video here to see how absolutely vile Bill Donohue is.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/03/31/the-daily-donohue-rantings-of-…
why do theists don't understand what we're saying?
denial.
Why are they the ones calling us stupid?
projection.
How many times do we have to show them before they understand?
we don't present evidentiary argument for THEIR understanding; it's for the ones that haven't yet swallowed the kool-aid.
Without literal deprogramming, the kind of people you are referring to will never be ABLE to comprehend (or let themselves comprehend) what we are telling them.
don't get your knickers in a twist about it, just keep presenting the same arguments, publicly, for OTHERS to take note of that haven't gone so far down the rabbit hole.
every once in a while, a lurker will thank you for it.
Dear President Bruininks,
I write to add my voice of support for Professor PZ Myers in the face of the campaign launched against him by the Catholic League in regard to his holding and strongly expressing an opinion with which they do not agree.
As you are no doubt very aware, the right to a free opinion is of major importance to western society and is to a large extent what helps separate us from a far darker period of history. Even if that opinion offends or otherwise hurts some groups feelings.
Prof Myers is an internationally renowned champion of the cause of rationality and enlightenment. Something which is of extreme value in the world these days. While I have no animosity towards the Catholic League or Christians in general (merely strong disagreement), I feel that this campaign is inappropriate and that to take punitive action against him in this regard would be a sadindictment of your institution.
Thank you for your attention.
Vincent Carroll
Johannesburg, South-Africa
This had to happen sooner or later. In fact, I'd bet a beer or two that the Catholc League have been following your blog for months waiting for something spicy enough to kick off about.
I've sent my email of support (real name, of course). Best wishes for you and your family - this nonsense must be extremely stressful.
Bah. Missed #648 the first time through. Sincere apologies, Wowbagger et al, for rebuking you without a full grip on the context.
Sent mine as well!
I've written in:
Dear President Bruininks,
I am writing in defense of P.Z. Myers regarding the controversy with certain Catholics and others of similar persuasion in the matter of communion wafers (crackers). I'd like to make several points in this email.
The first point I'd like to make is on the nature of P.Z. Myers work itself. He is one of the most inspiring bloggers I know and he shows an incredible passion for his subject with eloquence and humour. His passion leads him to confront his adversaries in the intellectual debate with vigour and little diplomacy. It is clear though, that his adversaries commonly show a lack of will to look at themselves or their ideas critically. This way they make it difficult to have a constructive debate. The most obvious way to expose their ways is by confronting them publicly; this is not merely politics, it is taking the scientific debate outside the academic circles. P.Z. Myers is a man that wants to educate not only his students, but also the general public, and I can imagine nothing wrong with that.
The second point I'd like to make is concerned with ethics. Is it appropriate for scientists to apply their own morals to society? As a university president there should be only one answer available to you. The scientific morals of inquisitiveness, democracy, openness to criticism and the obligation to add arguments to (extraordinary) claims are values that have improved society and will continue to do so when applied. P.Z. Myers is one of the most forward exponents of this kind of morality.
My third point concerns the nature of the controversy that has motivated so many to send you an email. He confronts a dogma, accepted by a small minority of society, and has throughout history caused so much friction that it is an obligation of any rational human being to criticise and investigate the origin of this dogma. The case of accepting the consecration of the host as a representation of the body of Christ is theologically controversial, and argumentative and scientific nonsense.
My fourth point concerns the venomous attack of the Catholic League on first the culprit, probably with a student prank in mind, and later directed at his defender. Calling a prank a hate crime is absurd even when it is directed at a religious sacrament. Calling for the sacking of a biology professor for standing up for reason is past absurd, it is hateful, deceitful and despicable in every way. Not P.Z. Myers should be punished for his role in the controversy, but Bill Donahue should be publicly humiliated for his arrogance and intolerance.
My fifth point I'd like to make has to do with the most controversial part of Myers blog post. Myer's call to send him consecrated communion wafers with the intention of desecrating them is controversial, undiplomatic and definitely not a call for peace. However, should one offer peace to dogmatic bigots who viciously attack a student or is a counterattack more appropriate. This to me is an open question and easy to argue either way. A call to reason however should never be the cause for termination of employment at a university, the temple of reason.
I'd like to end by referring to an equally controversial and outspoken Dutch opinion maker, Theo van Gogh. Intellectual attempts to silence him were frequent, unsuccessful and generally unwanted. He confronted dogma unscrupulously and even more undiplomatic then P.Z. Myers. His definitive silencing has traumatised the Dutch people, but above all made people afraid to speak out publicly. If you fire professor Myers for speaking his mind you are jointly responsible for creating an atmosphere of fear among academics to speak out on controversial subjects.
I implore you to take sides in favor of your distinguished employee and speak out in favour of reason and against dogma.
Sincerely,
Rogier van Gulpen
Leiden, The Netherlands
I didn't know William Donohue was a cracker. He sounds like he's a Yankee from Boston.
Thomas Jefferson's word for the Bible? "Dunghill."
See the Jefferson Bible. He took a scissors to it years ago.
Here is what some of our Founding Fathers wrote about Bible-based Christianity (Yes, all these quotes are legit and from an article written by Dean Worbois about 15 years ago):
Thomas Jefferson: "I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth." -- Six Historic Americans by John E. Remsburg, letter to William Short
Jefferson again: "Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."
More Jefferson: "The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ."
John Adams: "Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"
Also Adams: "The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states: "The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."
Here's Thomas Paine: "I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)." "Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible)." "It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible." "Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins...and you will have sins in abundance." And; "The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty."
Finally let's hear from James Madison: "What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."
Madison objected to state-supported chaplains in Congress and to the exemption of churches from taxation. He wrote: "Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."
BENJAMIN FRANKLIN
"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."
-- letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Roman Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. These found it wrong in the bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here and in New England." -- An Essay on Toleration
These founding fathers were a reflection of the American population. Having escaped from the state-established religions of Europe, only 7% of the people in the 13 colonies belonged to a church when the Declaration of Independence was signed.
Happy Independence Day, You Yankee Crackers!
I should think the University email server is probably on its last legs by now! :-)
However, I think we should be addressing emails and letters to the bigoted Bill Donohue and his fascist cohorts in answer to his Salem witch hunt. Lets put the spotlight on him. How about being up as the "Worst person in the World" just as the backlash against Rep Monique Davis after her bigoted attack as a judge against an atheist in a courtroom was raised world-wide.
Another huge own goal by the deluded, although they are far too stupid to realise it.
So according to the Catholic beliefs, the student who didn't eat the wafer can be expected to be tortured in hell for the next several trillion years. - BobC
BLASPHEMER!!! The torment is eternal!!! After several trillion years it won't even have started!!! The God of justice and mercy will keep him screaming in unbearable agony FOR EVER!!! With all the virtuous and godly Christians looking down and laughing, rejoicing in his EXCRUCIATING PAIN!!!!!
- offending people for sake of offending them (when is that ethical?)
When they are threatening to kill you because somebody didn't want to eat a cracker.
When they are attacking science education.
When they are lying to children about science.
When they are flying airplanes into buildings.
Right. Eternal is a lot longer than a few trillion years. The Christians never stop to think about why not eating a cracker really doesn't deserve eternal torture. Of course Christians rarely think about anything, perhaps because thinking is a mortal sin.
Hi. Longtime listener, first time caller. I just sent this e-mail to President Bruininks:
"Dear President Bruininks,
My name is Dave Flynn and I live in Ireland. I write to you in support of Professor Myers in the wake of the extremely heavy-handed tactics currently being employed by Bill Donahue, the Catholic League and others in response to a recent post on Prof. Myers' blog.
The outcry that followed both the initial incident at a church in Florida and Prof. Myers' reaction to the incident has been totally out of proportion, to the point that people have been issuing death threats against Prof. Myers and Webster Cook.
I find this ridiculous, pathetic and worrisome. However, I wish it to be known that I agree with what Prof. Myers wrote, and I find it encouraging that many others do too. I hope that the University of Minnesota will not be bullied into taking any action against him as per the wishes of a small group of narrow-minded individuals.
I am happy to be publicly identified as a supporter of Professor Myers.
Yours sincerely,
Dave Flynn."
More formal than I'm used to, but I think it does the job.
Keep up the good work, PZ!
So, you saw someone get death threats for dessecrating a religious icon, so you decided to tell the world you wanted to do that, but worse, and now you getting death threats is somehow notable. I'd ask how, but I really don't care.
I've gotta say, you getting shot now wouldn't surprise me. I don't think it's likely, but if it happens nobody gets to claim it comes as a surprise. Clearly you intentionally pursued that outcome.
And what a noble cause you've chosen to put your life on the line for, the promotion of a blog. Outstanding work.
ps. I don't give a toss about religion, Catholics or you. This is practically the same thing I told some fat redneck blogger a couple of years ago who got a fatwah on him for using copies of the Quran for shooting practice.
I can't see a difference. Well apart from the fact that you should probably be intelligent enough to know why it's called a "Darwin Award" and what makes them funny. Yet here we are.
I can't see a difference.
because there really isn't any at the level you are looking at it.
OTOH, if someone doesn't stand up to the fucking idiots who will try to murder someone because they can't handle that their personal idiocy is ludicrous, THEN we deserve what we get, right?
IOW, you, being a fucking shortsighted chickenshit, deserve a world ruled by people who will want to shoot you for driving the wrong color car.
Yes, here we are. What are YOU doing to try to get us OUT of "here"?
And what a noble cause you've chosen to put your life on the line for, the promotion of a blog. Outstanding work.
sorry, I missed that part that identifies you as a complete moron for thinking this is about a blog.
my mistake.
enough.
Please respect my beliefs.
Do you respect my belief that you're an idiot and a hypocrite?
And what a noble cause you've chosen to put your life on the line for, the promotion of a blog. Outstanding work.
Put your life on the line for a cracker!
Hello sir,
I have done my share after reading your letter in the Richard Dawkins website.
This is the letter I have sebt:
Leuven, Belgium, 11 July 2008
To R. Bruininks, president of University of Minnesota
Via e-mail
PZ Meyer and the need of a friendly open culture of debate
Dear Sir,
I hope you and your University are doing fine; I just read some less good news on the Richard Dawkins website.
I am Stefaan Christopher Hublou, historian living in the university town of Leuven, Belgium and I would like to offer my personal support to dr. PZ Meyers, whom I heard is being threatened by certain ideological extremists recently.
I am an amateur biologist myself fond of reading the books of Charles Darwin, and feeling very close to his Mind that was always on the outlook for deeper truths. My formation as a historian has endowed me with respect for the stance made by the philosopher A. N. Whitehead: "Faithfulness to the actual images of God is always service to Idols".
And that is my view while I pray daily, fervently, and while I am in regular contact with church leaders over the debate Science-Religion that is so topical all over the world these days. In my opinion, Evolution theory can and will help to purify the image of the Creator, the Mystery that carries everything, just as the historical-literary approach of Bible texts has done so since the sixteenth-seventeenth century.
Thank you for your attention and for your understanding of the position of PZ Meyer.
Yours truly,
Stefaan Hublou
The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.
John Adams
The Papists and catamites should go after John Adams. Boycott HBO! Hey! How did that boycott of Maher go? He's still on the air, right?
I don't think it's likely, but if it happens nobody gets to claim it comes as a surprise.
It seems that you don't quite grasp the concepts of "likely" and "surprise". Here's a hint: likely events aren't surprising.
And then there's the rather disgusting undertone of schadenfreude here.
I can't see a difference.
Not surprising for someone dumb.
Well apart from the fact that you should probably be intelligent enough to know why it's called a "Darwin Award" and what makes them funny.
It's a misnomer, fool.
This whole notion that somehow he asked for it is pretty disgusting. It diverts attention from the main problem here--insane, unjustified belief in the sacredness of certain crackers. Blame the delusional nonsense, not P.Z.'s audacity in challenging it.
Jesus. This is getting out of hand, just like the Danish cartoons incident.
You gotta be joking !
You think you are going to find a single person in the Catholic hierarchy who is going to defend the position that desecrating the Eucharist is not a big deal ?
I wouldn't waste any time on this. The Eucharist is not an issue of fundamentalism per se, it's one of their most sacred symbol, I've known very progressive Jesuit priests professors of Physics at university and very tolerant of homosexuality who were completely nuts with the Eucharist. They'd even lick the floor if they'd drop it to make sure there was none left. It's part of this mental compartementalisation that we always talk about.
Having said this, I think what PZ is doing is great, he gets all my support, there's no way America is going to become a more progressive and open society, tolerant of non believers unless the religious folks learn to deal with this kind of things.
So don't back down, speak up, refuse to obbey to their calls to be polite and respectful, when they can't even respect your non belief.
So you don't recognize their most sacred symbol, and have no reason to, and that's all this means, and you have all the right to do so. And they have absolutely no right to force you to recognize it.
You can go on and desecrate as many Eucharists as you want, as long as it's not on their private property, and that you do not disrupt church services, you are fully in your rights, they can't do anything, they can only scream and cry, which is even better, because maybe it gets them to understand what your ordeal is.
Best wishes PZ, my email is on the way. Amazing how crazy the religious folk get when we poke at the cracks of their faith.
And that is my view while I pray daily, fervently, and while I am in regular contact with church leaders over the debate Science-Religion that is so topical all over the world these days. In my opinion, Evolution theory can and will help to purify the image of the Creator, the Mystery that carries everything, just as the historical-literary approach of Bible texts has done so since the sixteenth-seventeenth century.
Whoa, that's scary.
@ No 954,Kilo
//I've gotta say, you getting shot now wouldn't surprise me. I don't think it's likely, but if it happens nobody gets to claim it comes as a surprise. Clearly you intentionally pursued that outcome.//
By calling a cracker a cracker?
You know I think PZ was wrong to be putting this note on his blog to send him crackers to desecrate,it was obvious what reaction we were going to get,and that it would give the fundies easy ammunition,so I think it wasnt a great idea to start with.
But dont you give me this Darwin Award and "he asked for it" shit you asshole,go wank to some faces of death vids you sicko.
This is the 21 century,and people are getting death threads for drawing cartoons,or taking a cracker out of a church,and the inquisition in the form of demented unhinged death cultists that believe in a committee decision from the 13th century to declare a piece of starch holy come out to threaten and intimidate anyone who will dare to call their mystical nonsense what it is,nonsense.
Dont you give me this he asked for it shit,you friggin moron,what kind of a sick person are you?
I think my favorite part is when they quote the Code of Conduct. they leave out this requirement:
- speak candidly and truthfully
And on the eighth day, He said, "Blessed be the Whole Grains."
No, seriously, what the fuck?
PZ, I hope you keep your job. When I consider the damage you do while employed, I'd hate to contemplate the devastation you could cause with lots of spare time.
Bah. Missed #648 the first time through. Sincere apologies, Wowbagger et al, for rebuking you without a full grip on the context.
That's not all you didn't have a full grip on.
Support message sent. I also composed the following for cl@catholicleague.org:
I don't see why President Bruininks should have all the fun. :-)
"insane, unjustified belief in the sacredness of certain crackers."
They can believe whatever crazy crap they want. They can believe that a carpenter dude was killed as a political opponent, stuffed into a cave and came out again 3 days later (oh, wait...) for all I care.
It's when they get so bloody wacky that they THREATEN DEATH to people who take crackers that is unacceptable.
I'm sure these fine folks who are complaining now were perfectly tolerable, nay excited, at the prospect of the Danish Muhammad cartoons, and the idiotic reaction they evoked from the extreme Muslim community. Well, who's laughing now?
You know I think PZ was wrong to be putting this note on his blog to send him crackers to desecrate,it was obvious what reaction we were going to get,and that it would give the fundies easy ammunition,so I think it wasnt a great idea to start with.
Right. Rather, it's a great idea to cower in fear and never speak the truth about their idiocy.
Do you suppose that PZ had no idea of the "obvious reaction" to his provocative post, especially after the previous reactions to Cook? So what the fuck if it gave them "easy ammunition"? Hell, "Happy Holidays" gives them easy ammunition. But now, a whole bunch of people are writing nice letters on his behalf. So just what is this terrible thing that lily-livered yellow-striped folks like yourself are so concerned with that makes it "not a great idea"?
AdamNelson,
Wacky beliefs by their nature yield wacky actions. They seldom stay confined to the believer's mind.
These people apparently really believe that this cracker is a part of their god's body. No wonder they'd wish to fiercely, maybe even violently protect it.
The root of the problem is the stupid belief and the faith that sustains it.
"So far today, I have received 39 pieces of personal hate mail of varying degrees of literacy, all because I was rude to a cracker."
That's pretty cheesy. I say "nuts!"
truth machine,
//lily-livered yellow-striped folks like yourself//
I dont know what that means but I guess its not a compliment,oh and I mainly wear scrubs lol....
I have an opinion on PZ's post regarding the crackergate thing,and if that opinion doesnt match yours,just do me a favor will ya,dont go all Gordon Ramsay on me,or anyone else for that matter that ever dares to disagree with you on any given topic,its just not doing your credibility any good......hey,we disagree,so?? This is Pharyngula right,people disagree here all the time,just try to keep it civilized mate !
"So far today, I have received 39 pieces of personal hate mail of varying degrees of literacy, all because I was rude to a cracker."
That's pretty cheesy. I say "nuts!"
I guess Jesus can't protect or stand up for himself, he needs Bill's help.
I guess Jesus can't protect or stand up for himself, he needs Bill's help.
Wait
Wait
Wasn't there didn't Jesus say something about turning the other cheek, I guess Bill forgot to read that part. Oh well, guess we should let him get back to picking some cherries.
kryth,no 980 :
Not only jeebus,but his dad as well ! Omnipotent,my ass lol,cant talk his way out of a zip-lock bag in his cracker form.....
"YOU are going to endure ETERNAL PAIN AND TORTURE for laughing at me, how can YOU be so evil?"
I'd like a secular rationally based credentialed ethicist to look at the cracker scenarios and render an opinions.
"credentialed ethicist"? Do need someone with credentials to confirm your preferences in colors and flavors as well?
If you don't approve of stealing consecrated crackers, don't do it.
offending people for sake of offending them
What is with you brickheads? It has nothing to do with offending people for the sake of offending them.
"YOU are going to endure ETERNAL PAIN AND TORTURE for laughing at me, how can YOU be so evil?"
Such stupidity is almost enough to drive one to eugenics.
Done and Done.
Tjek the linky....
http://katsasylum.blogspot.com/2008/07/donahue-its-only-goddamed-wafer…
Sitting in his puddle, marveling at how the universe made the hole just right...
Seriously, though, even his theology sucks and I don't know how much he could help. He's one of more hard-headed christian apologists I've run into; with a rock-solid certainty in his anthropic universe that is defied by the evidence across multiple scientific disciplines - archeology, biology, astronomy, physics. I've often wondered how someone can be so delusional and yet have an apparently productive career in a physical science.
I guess I shouldn't be too surprised though. Humans are capable of doing some amazing things even when severely mentally ill. For example, I've got a client who is a diagnosed schizophrenic, and hears Gods voice on occasion, that has built a very successful business.
He makes a lot of strange decisions, based on what the voices tell him, yet he's been successful.
Clinteas, my Antipodean lover.
"and I mainly wear scrubs lol...."
if you're a doctor our relationship is doomed, given I'm a lawyer and all. My father's a doctor, I'm WELL aware of what you guys think of us....not without good reason I might add.
I dont know what that means
I explained what it means in the rest of my post that you apparently ignored.
All your hypocritical boo hoo hoo doesn't impress me. You have an opinion -- well, so do I, and I expressed it.
I came here via Richard Dawkins' newsletter.
I have only one point of disagreement with your posting, Prof. ...
Where you refer to "ironic cluelessness," surely you intended "moronic" ...
Best wishes - and keep up the great work,
Joe Jones
England
And, clinteas, instead of addressing the substance of my post, you went all ad hominem with this "civilized" shit. Civilization has nothing to do with such Victorian bullshit.
Bride of Shrek,
dont say we are doomed my love,doctor and lawyer or whatever,we should at least try...:-)
truth machine,
honestly mate,the substance of your post was :
///lily-livered yellow-striped folks like yourself//
ahem,
ad hominem anyone??
Rapists and murders always say she/he had it coming. Congratulations for swimming that gutter with them.
Hey Myers, I just put an envelope in my mailbox to be picked up today. Here's the content of the letter:
--------------------------------
Dear President Bruininks,
PZ Myers has evidently put himself in a position that would necessitate a request for support from bloggers. It is understandable why he would be in such a position. The man deserves censure, not support.
Myers is well-known for his disrespectful, malicious and mocking postings and comments concerning Christians and Christianity. His most recent outrageous insult to all Catholics is not a mistake, bad judgment, nor even a spur of the moment outburst - it is what Myers stands for - absolute intolerance for religion. This is not in keeping with how a professor at a university should conduct himself.
If I was one of his students and I was a Christian, I would be highly offended, and more importantly, very concerned that his extreme bias would affect my grade. It is not inconceivable that Myers would note the cross I wear around my neck and hold it against me. This is not an atmosphere in which any student at an institution funded by all taxpayers, including a great many Christians, should be subjected.
As Myers has no compunction about publicly expressing his bigoted and hateful attitude, it must fall upon the institution that employs him to hold him responsible for the continual, numerous and clear violations of its policies dealing with the code of conduct.
You must be receiving many emails concerning PZ Myers and the current controversy in which he is embroiled. Many of his supporters will be those who frequent his blog and share in his intolerance for religion. A fair-minded person would not support his conduct.
----------------------------------
Hope this helps.
Can these stories get any more wacky? Anyway, here is my addition:
Dear Mr. Bruininks,
I would like to register my support of Paul Myers in the recent matter of his blog entry, referring to the Eucharist as a "cracker". I understand that there is a emotive attempt to threaten his position at your University, and I would like to share my surprise that people would use his beliefs to negatively affect his professional standing.
As a former Catholic, it is my impression that in countries such as here in the UK, most Catholics do not believe that the Eucharist is the literal body of Jesus Christ, but is a traditional symbolic gesture marking the occasion of the last supper.
In civilised society, critical evaluation of the beliefs of a population is very important, and so these sorts of incidents should be brought to light where they can be objectively criticised in the public sphere. Whether you believe such things or not, it is of course a matter of free speech.
People should not be chastised for exercising their rights, and I applaud Mr. Myers for the humour in which he does so.
Yours sincerely,
(name supplied)
honestly mate,the substance of your post was :
"honestly"? And you talk about credibility, you fucking lying asshole?
E-mail sent- and even used my real name :) I fear it would take too long to send a real letter from the UK.
Jensen, I'm LAUGHING AT YOU!!!
I'm so evil...
Jensen,
yes indeed,a fair-minded(as opposed to brunette-minded)person would indeed not support his conduct of calling a cracker a cracker,Im with ya mate.
Go take your meds now.
Is continual a word?
ahem,
ad hominem anyone??
"ad hominem" is not a synonym for "insult", cretin. I addressed the content of your post; therefore my argument was not ad hominem. You ignored the content of my post and instead referred only to the "uncivilized" way I presented it -- that's ad hominem.
Yes.