So far today, I have received 39 pieces of personal hate mail of varying degrees of literacy, all because I was rude to a cracker. Four of them have included death threats, a personal one day record. Thirty-four of them have demanded that I be fired. Twenty-five of them have told me to desecrate a copy of the Koran, instead, or in some similar way offend Muslims, because — in a multiplicity of ironic cluelessness — apparently only some religious icons must be protected, and I would only offend Catholics because they are all so nice that none of them would wish me harm. I even have one email that says I should be fired, that the author would like to kill me, and that I only criticize because Catholics are so gentle and kind.
Oh, and of course, the university president's office has also received lots of mail demanding my immediate ouster (keep in mind, though…Catholics are no threat to anyone at all.) I don't know how much, but since Donohue published the president's email address and not mine, I imagine it's much greater than what I've seen. Those lovely Dark Age fanatics at the Catholic League have started a write-in campaign to start up an inquisition.
So no poll-crashing today. Instead, I would appreciate it if you would write a short note to President Robert Bruininks in support (he's going to hate me for this). I have to ask for a few constraints, though: only do so if you are willing to sign a real name to it — most of the complaint mail I'm getting uses fake names, making it much less persuasive — and that, unlike the religious screeds I'm seeing, you take the time to proofread and send him something that at least looks like a high school graduate wrote it, which will put you way above the level of the hate mail. Be polite and rational, too!
If you really want to impress, send him regular mail at this address:
President Robert H. Bruininks
202 Morrill Hall
100 Church Street S.E.
University of Minnesota
Minneapolis, MN 55455
Bill Donohue has a loud, braying voice, and he's already trying to stir up a witch hunt. We need a counter-campaign from the secular community.
Whoa, this one is getting heavy traffic and we need to close it down and reroute. Continue the discussion here, if you must.
Jensen,
You lying piece of shit !
PZ has always made it absolutely clear that he would never do anything like this, that he would grade and evaluate papers purely on the merit of such papers.
You see, this is the kind of tactics the religious folks like to make use of, lies and disinformation.
So, clinteas, asshole, I asked you a question that you haven't answered: So just what is this terrible thing that lily-livered yellow-striped folks like yourself are so concerned with that makes it "not a great idea"?
Jensen,
I don't think you get it. At all. Why should the university care what PZ does in his own personal time? Dr. Myers just works there, he doesn't owe them some weird oath of fealty.
Your request for a response from his university is just as ridiculous as the Muslims who asked the Danish government to shut down the newspaper that printed the Muhammad cartoons.
I hope you've learned your lesson, and can come to function in a free, 21st century society.
If you keep a monkey in a cage long enough, it goes crazy and will attack you. I don't know about the moron-in-a-closet though, but since they're at about the same developmental/cognitive level I should be concerned if I were you.
wnelson@746
What a snide little creep you are.
truth machine,
mate,dont you have anything better to do than to argue with me? We seem to agree on anything other than the wisdom of attacking a few million deluded cathobots,I think it wasnt a good idea,you think it was...
Cant we just agree to disagree and move on? And i really hate it that you got number 1000 !
Here's a question. The Romans killed Jesus on the cross. What happened to them afterwards? Two days, three days, fourteen months, nine years after? Nothing. God didn't smite them or send lightning bolts across the sky or plague their first born. Nothing happened other than the usual living lives until death.
So why does Donahue and his subcult need to punish those he thinks desecrates Jesus Christ and Catholicism? Is it because he believes deep down that God's too much of a pansy to do it (smite or kill or revoke tenure to) Ye Olde Himself?
I've wiggled thoughts like this around for years. My dad's a former monk and most of his friends are monks or priests and nuns, whom I like. But this is the first time I've actually been able to put my finger on what's been bothering me.
Thanks, science!
"But this is the first time I've actually been able to put my finger on what's been bothering me."
That, and the bible says that Eve screwed her kids (and most likely grandkids), killing your son in religious fervour is OK, and pi equals exactly 3. Gooo Bible!
This is so crazy... 1000 comments on the first thread, 500 comments on the second, and now 1000 on the third. Over a frackin' cracker. I don't get it.
I chimed in to the Prez, and blogged about this whole debacle, as I also squirrelled a Jesus-cracker out of a Catholic church in Pittsburgh two years ago for a school presentation.
My blog entry: Christians? Crackers!
woot! 1000 comments and counting! Thanks for making PZ's blog so super-duper popular tonight, fundies.
So here's a question: All you religious folks accept as a given, because your church organizations call it heresy not to and you're all such good believers who would never consider any of their dictates ridiculous (otherwise why would you be here defending the wafer, am I right), that every other believer out there who isn't a part of your sect will burn in fiery perdition for all eternity (well, the Buddhists don't believe that, but thats neither here nor there). Not only do you believe this, but your pastors make a habit of reminding you of this fact, in ways sometimes subtle and sometimes not, on a regular basis. So my question is, why is someone walking out of a church hate speech to you when on at least a bimonthly basis you listen to a sermon about how everyone who thinks differently than you is going to suffer unimaginable torment for eternity?
Calling down eternal, mind-breaking, torment on someone sounds a lot more like hate speech than not eating a cracker to me. But then again, I guess I'm just an unenlightened atheist bigot who's never done or said a mean thing to anyone because of their beliefs, huh?
Eating, grinding, digesting, and crapping out the body of Christ is OK, but removing it from a building... heresy!!
It seems to me that this furore was catalysed by PZ's high profile.
I take it as good evidence that his approach is working to plan. Nice!
And I think we should all be grateful that PZ has the guts to take the flak for this, as well as so many other issues. I really don't know if I would have the testicular fortitude to put myself in the firing line the way in which he has, and the way in which someone desperately needed to. Thanks PZ.
,dont you have anything better to do than to argue with me?
You made a statement, I criticized it and asked you a question. Rather than address my criticism and answer the question, you blathered about whether I'm "civilized", and now you blather about whether I have anything better to do. It's all ad hominem shit, and you're a cowardly shit hole who isn't willing to defend your idiotic beliefs -- just like any religious nut.
You lying piece of shit !
PZ has always made it absolutely clear that he would never do anything like this, that he would grade and evaluate papers purely on the merit of such papers.
What a an excitable bunch of little goons you all are.
What the hell do I care what Myers claims? His attitude speaks for itself. An atheist's word has no meaning. Actually, an atheist is a grunting animal. Animals never lie - they just do whatever the hell they please, whenever they please. No morals, no standards, except those they choose for themselves - until they decide on something else. Yeah, I'm gonna trust the word of an atheist.
I'm outta here. The stink of atheist bullshit can only be tolerated for so long. Adios little goons.
I also wrote the president.
President Robert H. Bruininks
I support Dr Myers efforts to continue in free discourse. Education is primarily passed through communication, whereas ignorance often relies on silence. Dr Myers has provided, and should continue to provide, ongoing education and discussion of relevant subjects to a wide range of national and international scholars and laymen alike.
Dr Myers is indeed a rare man.
Thank you
signed; full name and address.
I cant wait to see what the response will be.
OK,
I will entertain you and answer your question,although its rather irrelevant .
I assume you take me for some striped suit type,is that what this lily thing means?
Well,hate to disappoint you,but im the Jeans type(cant see how that is important in judging what someone is saying,but you seem to think it is,so there),and I think it was not a good idea to put on a popular blog that you want to desecrate the holy relic of some religious cult,because all you will achieve is to incense and drive to hate-mail at best and death threats at worst the members of said cult,and given the quality of the media in the US you will not get objective coverage but a lot of emo and lies and it all ends up being trouble and angst for PZ now,to the point of Richard Dawkins having to write a letter to PZ's Uni,with nothing achieved at all.
Now,this is my opinion,yours is different as we know,but why all the aggro mate?
President Robert H. Bruininks,
I would like to lend my voice to those supporting Professor Paul Zachary Myers with regards to his criticisms of the recent behavior of Bill Donohue and the Catholic League. I'm sure you're familiar with the situation by now. Professor Myers, in my view, is rightfully outraged by the treatment of the UCF student Webster Cook. Bill Donohue and the Catholic League are completely out of line, both in their treatment of Mr. Cook and Professor Myers. We should never be required to treat ideas with the proverbial "kid gloves" purely because they happen to fall under the umbrella of religion. I would have hoped that people living in a free country like the U.S. would be able to appreciate the value of freedom of speech. Instead, I see very similar reactions in this instance as I did in response to certain Danish cartoons or teddy bears named Mohammed.
Blasphemy is not legally a crime in this country, and for good reason. Nor is it a legitimate reason to discipline an employee of a state institution, regardless of what Bill Donohue and the Catholic League would have us believe.
Regards,
Matthew Durham
And I think we should all be grateful that PZ has the guts to take the flak for this, as well as so many other issues. I really don't know if I would have the testicular fortitude to put myself in the firing line the way in which he has, and the way in which someone desperately needed to. Thanks PZ.
Right on. And no thanks to the cowardly concern trolls.
PZ, Get'er done, brother. Email sent.
By the way, #30, what are "eucharist print" undies, and where can I get some?
I think it was not a good idea to put on a popular blog that you want to desecrate the holy relic of some religious cult,because all you will achieve is to incense and drive to hate-mail at best and death threats at worst the members of said cult,and given the quality of the media in the US you will not get objective coverage but a lot of emo and lies and it all ends up being trouble and angst for PZ now,to the point of Richard Dawkins having to write a letter to PZ's Uni,with nothing achieved at all.
"trouble and angst for PZ now"? Apparently you can't even conceive of someone not being the sort of cowardly shithole that you are.
Sent my email. I'm working in Spain right now, so regular mail is kind of out. Chin up -- you've got support!
Jensen,
Actually, we atheists don't need to believe in bullshit to figure out what's right and wrong. We have reason and common sense.
How do you distinguish right from wrong? By uncritically accepting the contents of your barbaric, primitive Bible? That's not morality, that's obedience.
Good luck with your imaginary pal Jesus.
"It's all ad hominem shit, and you're a cowardly shit hole"
LOL, no offense buddy, and I support your points, but now I need to buy a new irony meter!
"What a an excitable bunch of little goons you all are."
"The stink of atheist bullshit can only be tolerated for so long. "
"An atheist's word has no meaning"
"Actually, an atheist is a grunting animal."
Ah, the Christian moral high ground. It's a good thing you'd NEVER stoop to the tactics of dirty atheists, given how you, being a Christian, are naturally so moral and at peace with your life. So at peace, in fact, that you anonymously come onto a blog and trash people who don't think like you. But you're a Christian, and therefore more morally robust than us heretics.
My poor irony meter.
LOL, no offense buddy, and I support your points, but now I need to buy a new irony meter!
That's not any fault of mine.
Dear President Bruininks,
I appreciate you taking your time to read this message of support for Dr. P.Z. Myers. I have been an avid reader of Dr. Myers's blog Pharyngula for more than 2 years, and was also born and raised a Catholic, which allows me I think, to bring a solid perspective with which to view the current kerfuffle between Dr. Myers and Catholic League President Bill Donohue.
Dr. Myers brings his usual reasoned, sensible approach - Mr. Donohue, breaking several commandments at a time, spews invective and hate. Dr. Myers, as always, attempts to shed light and knowledge about difficult subjects, Mr. Donohue, attempts to block learning and discussion. As a Catholic, I can tell you, that though he may protest, I would nominate P.Z. for Saint-hood, and Mr. Donohue for an exorcism.
I see nothing wrong with Dr. Myers assertion that Catholics eat crackers at Mass - they do! I do see quite a bit wrong with Mr. Donohue's attempt to interfere with secular activities. Perhaps a course in Constitutional Law for Mr. Donohue might be in order, as it is my understanding that in the United States there is a separation of Church and State. People like Mr. Donohue make it evident why this is a good thing.
Thanks for your attention, and thanks for your continued support of Dr. Myers.
"No morals, no standards, except those they choose for themselves"
Hmm, let's figure this out here...
Xtian: I'm moral because I do things somebody I've never met told me to!
Atheist: I'm moral because I arrived at a set of values derived from logic and common sense with everybody else's betterment at heart.
Xtian: you immoral animal! How DARE you think for yourself??
Hmmm.... I'd find that hard to believe. They mass-produced in droves and nasty, mushy crackers could hardly be in demand as a foodstuff except by the starving whom the Catholic Church can't be bothered to help, beyond tokenism, anyway.
As I pointed out to my mother when she used the "there are starving children in India" guilt trip; I doubt there is a shortage of mushy, over-cooked peas in the world and if there is, they can have mine. Perhaps not the wisest words to come out of the mouth of an eight-year-old, but they got me out of eating the peas.
And the rest of diner.
Which wasn't a loss.
My mother sucked as a cook and, in response, by twelve I was fully capable of cooking a gourmet meal.
"That's not any fault of mine."
... What an odd response.
Copy of my letter to the prez:
Subject: Quick note in support of PZ Myers
Just wanted to let you know, as a trained sociologist, I often check PZ Meyer's web page. I even send students to it to demonstrate how clearly written, well thought out, empirical arguments can be constructed about social problems.
And as a former altar boy, I want to know who declared that Donahue idiot King of the Catholics?
Tom Durkin, PhD.
Northwestern University Sociology
Just sent off an e-mail to your Prez, PZ. The subject line says it all, but the body of the e-mail is all nice and coherent. I'll mail a copy, if an e-mail campaign isn't enough.
Keep fighting the good fight!
What an odd response.
Some people find the truth odd.
Stephen Majewski: Just to add on to what Gotts said, the Gospels never claim that Jesus said anything about transubstantiation. If Jesus had, or had ever clearly claimed to be the physical embodiment of Christ, do you think Christians would have spent centuries fighting over these issues? Ever heard of the Arian Controversy? The Albigensian Crusade? The Protestant Reformation? And these conflicts, of course, are only among those who accept the same gospels that you do. Millions of Christians have based their faith on different gospels which no Catholic in the world is allowed to read for non-scholarly purposes under the threat of excommunication.
It might be helpful to you to actually read up on the history of what is supposedly the most important thing in your life before you start arguing other people about it.
"Some people find the truth odd."
And you, being a truth machine and all, are privy to the truth eh? The truth that incest is good and pi = 3? Hallelujah!
truth machine,
i rest my case mate,there is no point debating you now,since your drugs are clearly superior to mine....I layed out my arguments to you,and thats what I get,no point continuing is there !
Hey I've got a question. If I had to take communion, but I am a coeliac (Gluten Allergy), does the church produce gluten free bodies of christ? Is this a request I can make of the Minister? Perhaps he needs to add a couple of obscure latin phrases to his necromancy ritual (migratus en glutenus???).
Personally I think it was very inconsiderate of Jesus to disambigutranssubstantiate into a food product that I am allergic to.
Maybe I just have the devil in me or something?
Please catholic coeliacs, enquiring minds want to know!!
Religon: Get rid of all of it, any way, shape and/or form, and get along. All of us in this world, on this earth.
"Religon: Get rid of all of it, any way, shape and/or form, and get along. All of us in this world, on this earth."
Or just not be a douche and keep your cracker-initiated bloodlust to yourself.
GunofSod,
this was pointed out about 2 million posts up,the CC decreed in 1995 that if you are gluten intolerant,you can not receive the holy cracker.
Do! Ok, I'm not doing so well with the editting this morning; that should read "Clearly claimed to be the physical embodiment of god..." Obviously he never claimed to be this word "Christ" as that is just an anglicized version of a latin slang word for a Greek synonym for messiah.
"this was pointed out about 2 million posts up,the CC decreed in 1995 that if you are gluten intolerant,you can not receive the holy cracker."
Which means that God so cursed your body at birth with not being able to go to heaven. What a douchebag!
This comment is for Webster Cook. Please, please, please sell the "Holy Cracker" on Ebay. I dare you. I am still laughing at the responses from ignorant, brainwashed, religious zealots. The holy cracker situation is just so humorous and entertaining.
All you need is hate, people.
Emailed this morning.
"All you need is hate, people.
Posted by: Anonymous"
And when intellectually cornered, anonymously post something vaguely insulting. Good show!
I'll get on that letter ASAP.
And damn! Another 1k+ thread. So anything commented here will be for posterity, eh? Thanks google for search machines.
And that is the bigots problems right there. When did religions stop to observe the harm they do? They are even still sending out missionaries that spread socio-cognitive and medical diseases. At least the later has been known to wipe out communities.
Don't get me started on the sex ed or abortion business.
And I note that the only offered evidence for harm is that PZ Myers hurts christians feelings. Well, seeing people believing in imaginary friends hurts mine - I would have thought humans were better than that. Sadly, no.
GunOfSod,
why can't you use Google, like everyone else ?
http://www.ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur47.htm
And you, being a truth machine and all, are privy to the truth eh? The truth that incest is good and pi = 3? Hallelujah!
You're confused.
I really don't know if I would have the testicular fortitude to put myself in the firing line the way in which he has, and the way in which someone desperately needed to. Thanks PZ.
I personally would grant him honorary ovarian fortitude for sticking himself out there and holding his ground. Heck, in the face of death threats, he's even worthy of honorary uterian fortitude as well.
This has been an entertaining thread.
A guy walks out of a church without eating a cracker.
The Catholic League president bursts an aorta in outrage.
PZ points out the inanity of a priest mumbling a few Latin words over a cracker.
The religious wackaloons show up to feign outrage and to issue insults and threats, thereby showing their fear of words.
Much hilarity ensues.
Over a cracker. Mumbled over by priests. In the 21st century.
This comment is for Webster Cook. Please, please, please sell the "Holy Cracker" on Ebay.
Do try to keep up -- he already returned it to the church.
Negentropyeater, from the article:
"And thus a gluten-free wafer, in spite of its external resemblance, is no longer bread and thus is incapable of becoming the Body of Christ."
Oops. Shot yourself in the foot.
Maybe all the human meat in your diet is causing mental illness.
I sent an email in support but it bounced right back to me.
"550 5.1.1 ... User unknown"
Have all the emails broken the mail server?
Who's acting like an animal? You're the one that dropped by our lawn, shit on the grass and then left.
And the stink is not unnoticeable.
"You're confused."
Ok, truth machine, I'll give you a chance to defend your book. First off: justify how, in the first book of Kings 7:23, it says that pi = 3. Secondly, justify Eve's necessary incestual relationship with her children in order to propagate the species.
@1055 (me)
That error message did actually contain the President's correct email address. It was filtered out in the commenting for whatever reason.
TM is not one of them.
Good ole truthmachine..
"credentialed ethicist"? Do need someone with credentials to confirm your preferences in colors and flavors as well?
Me: no - but I am not above listening respectfully to the thought processes and opinions of someone who objectively tackles an area of concern as a life's work. Does that make me stupid?
If you don't approve of stealing consecrated crackers, don't do it.
Me: I don't approve of stealing in general; I am sure others don't give a damn in general; I am also sure not all is black and white; I am also sure we'd all be better off in general if we all tried to determine what is ethical in a particular situation and do the ethical thing that is come by honestly. What is wrong with that?
offending people for sake of offending them What is with you brickheads? It has nothing to do with offending people for the sake of offending them.
Me: If it walks like a duck - and quacks like a duck - it may be taken as a duck. Perception trumps reality - sad but true. Watch presentation .. well meant stuff still has to be well presented - and by well I mean the instrument of delivery should not obfuscate the message intended. You disagree with that persuasive presentation suggestion?
_________________
But I know you like to keep it honest and precise and you have a style of trying to get us to do such -- somewhat aligned to PZ's :-) Peace out.
AdamNelson,
truth machine might be a dick,but hes not a true believer...
The fact that you would think that tho,just made my day !
Mwahahahahahahahaha
LOL
Please, truth machine, justify the biblical weirdness I pointed out, including the obviously wrong passage in Kings.
Clinteas, #1043
not true
http://www.ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur47.htm
Again people not doing their research properly...
Oops. Shot yourself in the foot.
Maybe all the human meat in your diet is causing mental illness.
What is your problem? First you nuttily suggest that this OM believes that pi = 3, and then you accuse neg of ... something, even though all he did was cite an informative article, not make any claims about it.
Dear Sir,
I am writing in support of Professor P.Z. Myers, who has become the target of a campaign to have your University censure him for his writings on the Internet.
On the subject of science these writings exhibit an expertise and an enthusiasm that reflect great credit on the University of Minnesota, and in fact have caused me more than once to wish I'd studied biology rather than engineering.
Naturally, different people have differing levels of discomfort with his lack of respect for religion, but allow me to say that Professor Myers is a hero to me.
Sincerely,
Kenneth Murray
I'm very, very, very late to this party, and WAY WAY late to say this, but:
Donahue, like the religiotrolls around hare, is merely an attention whore. Perhaps in both cases it might be best simply to deprive them of that which they crave?
Please, truth machine, justify the biblical weirdness I pointed out, including the obviously wrong passage in Kings.
You're a fucking moron if you think this atheist's atheist, with an Order of Molly, goes around justifying anything in the bible. Never mind, you're just a fucking moron, period.
E-mail sent! With an apology at the end for contributing to his overstuffed inbox ;) I can't help it, I'm Canadian.
"What is your problem? First you nuttily suggest that this OM believes that pi = 3"
I don't suggest that anybody believes that pi = 3, I suggest that the HOLY BIBLE says pi = 3. And if the Bible says so, well then, who needs math?
"and then you accuse neg of ... something, even though all he did was cite an informative article, not make any claims about it."
He accused GunofSod of not researching his points properly, to which he linked an article refuting his own argument!
BTW, truth machine, still waiting on your answers...
Neg,
WTF???
"You're a fucking moron if you think this atheist's atheist, with an Order of Molly, goes around justifying anything in the bible. Never mind, you're just a fucking moron, period."
Someone's testy. Now that you've thrown your temper tantrum, wanna back up your claims with proof? Or did you still need to distract from the point? I can wait.
Yeah ok,after reading it,its funny LOL
Message of support sent. Good luck! Hopefully the only real outcome of this will be a bit more attention drawn to what crackpots the biscuit-lovers are.
If it walks like a duck - and quacks like a duck - it may be taken as a duck.
It neither walks nor quacks like a duck, fool. If you haven't already grasped what this is about beyond "offending people for the sake of offending them", it's not worth the effort to explain it to you.
Adamnelson
What a moron
"What a moron"
Ooo, an argument with substance.
Wow there is some serious confusion / chaos here today.
Now that you've thrown your temper tantrum, wanna back up your claims with proof?
What claims are those, cretin? In any case, this is a science site, and empirical claims are not backed by proof.
"Wow there is some serious confusion / chaos here today."
Yeah, I think I've been arguing against the people I've been agreeing with. If so, sorry! If not, well, too bad!
AdamNelson,
What are you trying to get from Truth Machine? He's an atheist. Heck, he's arguably (esp. if it's him doing the arguing) the most atheist poster here, if there's a spectrum such things can be measured on.
Yes, he's a bit prickly, but I think you misunderstood him somewhere along the line.
And on this note,I retire so I can have any chance of saving some lifes tomorrow LOL,3000 posts in 2 days have left their mark,I need to get some sleep.....
Bride of Shrek,
I need to get your email addy Lady,open for suggestions !
"What claims are those, cretin? In any case, this is a science site, and empirical claims are not backed by proof."
I think I'm a little confused here... what exactly are you even arguing?
P.Z. I disagree with what you wrote and have said so:
http://liberalrationalism.blogspot.com/2008/07/theres-no-goal-like-own-…
But I will fight for your right to say it. (Not "to the death, though", Voltaire was braver than I am!).
I will write the email.
Cheers
AdamNelson #1079
Yes, you have.
AdamNelson, I must admit to some confusion. Do you think TM in on the side of the godbotherers?
This had to be one of the easiest tasks I have undertaken in weeks. I juxtaposed PZ's "voice of reason" as a beautiful symphony against the cacophony of ignorance of the likes of Bill Donohue.
Yeah, I think I've been arguing against the people I've been agreeing with. If so, sorry!
"sorry" is the word for you, all right.
The problem isn't necessarily with Catholics, per se. I wouldn't consider Donahue and his ilk true Catholics, or even Christians, for that matter. People who respond in this way to so called "desecrations" of their icons of faith are not even true followers of their faith principles, they are mere fanaticists. To quote Santayana, "Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim". His quote describes the actions of these types of people perfectly. They are so shallow in their religious beliefs that they assume any attack on their religion is a personal affront that they cannot tolerate (how does a religion that emphasizes tolerance result in intolerant followers?). Therefore, they abandon the base principles of their faith in order to defend it.
"What are you trying to get from Truth Machine? He's an atheist."
"Yes, you have."
Oops. Cue embarrassment. I'll have three servings of humble pie, pleez.
Er... no. Wrong. I've read that 3 times, it makes no sense.
I'm a chickenshit ? Really. Explain how you pissweak little fuck. Any aspect of your life you wish to compare to mine... go for it.
Unless you're in the Sudan, I'd ask WTF it is you need saving from. Recall that these people threatening lives were solicited. You can do that if you like, but as I said, you don't then get to bitch about it as though that wasn't the whole point of the exercise.
Likewise, there are a lot of issues you can put your life on the line for. Say, volunteering for bomb disposal works in Laos. As opposed to, you know, one-upping religious dessecration threats to get hits on your blog.
Anyways, tell us about this chickenshit business. I'd love to know if you've caused the kind of carnage I have pal.
"Actually, an atheist is a grunting animal. "
Wow, that's offensive, maybe even a hate crime. I haven't grunted yet today, although I have snorted a few times reading this thread. I will admit to being an animal, though.
Thanks PZ, and all of the posters for hours of entertainment.
It _was_ just a cracker, y'know.
There are 1058 comments before me, but I have to wonder if anyone mentioned the obvious: That Bill Donohue and his ilk feel a bit frustrated by Christianity's orders to turn the other cheek and not judge their fellows, and more, can't help wishing and wondering what it would be like to be able to kill, maim and destroy their enemies.
Praying for them is so boring after a while.
And: They're dying to emulate their fundamentalist Muslim brethren. Holy outrage gone wild. Blood flowing in God's name. The Good Old Days.
I am still (just BARELY!) a Christian, but in these hazy crazy days of W. Bush and bringing God back to the White House, I have noticed that the people most likely to be granted entrance to Heaven by Christ are the atheists. Nobody pissed Jesus off MORE than scribes, Pharisees and hypocrites of his own religion.
You could look it up.
A hand-written thoughtful snail mail of support is on its way to your University's President, PZ. God bless you for entering the Temple and turning over the moneychangers' tables. How's THAT for some irony in these modern times?
Dave Mueller #156:
I used to be an atheist so I understand your science-alone tunnel vision, but some of us don't believe that everything can be explained by science.
That statement is doubly presumptuous.
So, since many people believe that the consecrated host is the very Body of Christ, why can you not be civil to us? Threatening to profane the Body of Christ is basically worse to us than threatening to kill us, so you really shouldn't be surprised to get some serious anger directed towards you.
Atheists don't hold much sacred, so it is probably hard for you to understand, but someone threatening to kill your family is probably something you'd get a bit upset and angry about, I assume? Well, that's about how we Catholics feel when you threaten to profane the Body of Christ.
I, and likely most who post here, understand quite well that the behaviors we see follow from the premises these people hold. Arguing that reprehensible behavior is the logical conclusion (or logically expected result) of widely held beliefs says more to the effect that those beliefs are not benign than that, say, the behavior is excusable.
I hope you see the error of your ways and grow out of your quite prolonged adolescence. When you realize that there are people that are just as intelligent as you (probably more, judging by your behavior) that have believed in God and Catholicism, you'll take the first step towards sanity and maturity. To think that everyone who disagrees with you is stupid and not worthy of respect is itself mind-bogglingly stupid and juvenile.
Do you think you are smarter than Blaise Pascal? How about Louis Pasteur? I could go on and on, but it is probably useless.
Thinking a belief is stupid is not the same as thinking that any person who holds it is stupid. Quite intelligent people can believe quite silly things.
It seems to me that all you're doing here is presenting a straw man coupled with an argument from authority. You're shifting from a discussion about ideas and the behaviors they're coupled with to a discussion about people.
Sorry, TM, I guess I completely reversed your position somehow... Anyways, didn't mean to be a dick to you!
I think I'm a little confused here... what exactly are you even arguing?
You're the one who's arguing, moron: "Ok, truth machine, I'll give you a chance to defend your book." -- I never made any mention of that book. But your idiocy started earlier, with talk of irony -- apparently because you don't understand what "ad hominem" means, even though I had just explained it.
I'm about to snail mail this text to your president:
"Dear President Robert H. Bruininks,
As both a regular reader of Professor PZ Myers' blog "Pharyngula" and a student of library science at the University of South Florida, I am writing in regards to the recent furor over a July 8th post entitled "It's a Frackin' Cracker."
The accusations of Catholic League that Professor Myers has publicly stated his intentions to "desecrate the Eucharist" are entirely correct. However, the relevance of this accusation to Professor Myers' employment at University of Minnesota Morris is nonexistent.
The blog "Pharyngula" can be accessed from his faculty webpage, but is not hosted by the university. Neither students, nor anyone else is required to read the blog where Professor Myers regularly challenges religious beliefs of all denominations and faiths.
In this particular case, Professor Myers was responding to what he perceived as an overreaction of Bill Donohue of the Catholic League as well as officials at University of Central Florida where a student walked out of Mass with a consecrated communion wafer, allegedly "holding it hostage for several days."
The attempts of the Catholic League to affect Professor Myers' employment at your institution are an attempt to frighten the institution into limiting the dialogue that employees are allowed to use in their personal lives and communications. Myers lists his affiliation with University of Minnesota Morris on "Pharyngula" in the same way that one would when publishing an article in an academic journal: to state his institutional background and credentials.
By writing "Pharyngula," Myers is upholding the highest goals of teaching: dissemination knowledge to those who would otherwise not have encountered it. My views on religion are certainly different than Professor Myers, but this does not diminish the value of the site or the value of the scholarship which is often his focus.
It is my belief that this furor is a chance to state the free speech rights of people who speak unpopular opinions. I understand that a professor at a university holds a special position of responsibility to be unbiased in one's teaching, but this responsibility should not limit one's right to speak freely outside of the university setting.
Thank you for your time and consideration,
[my real name and stuff]"
It's a cracker like the flag is a piece of cloth, or the Constitution is a piece of paper or books are fuel for fires like wood, or Michelangelo's David is a slab of marble. There are ideas and values bound with things - PZ Myers in his purely materialistic vein tends to forget that human beings do that.
However if someone desecrated the Catholic worship, the response ought not to be violence or intimidation. Nor should the response to PZ Myers' mockery be these threats and intimidation. At some point the Eucharist does become only a cracker because of this stupid behavior. Unless you're claiming that Jesus Christ would support death threats and hate mail.
sorry Clinteas, I'm saying it's not true that the CC continues saying that if you are gluten intolerant, you cannot receive the holy cracker (your post#1041). They've approved very low gluten crackers (0.01%) that are ok for most celiacs.
I mean it's completely irrelevant to this discussion anyway, just someone was asking the question and it apparently keeps comming back, I don't know why.
Just the usual sidetrack I guess ;-)
But this moron Adamnelson thinks I'm a frequent consumer of holy crackers, he can't even read the comments I guess.
OK, TM, I take it back. You're just a dick. I apologized for barking up the wrong tree, but you won't have any of it. I don't care what your beliefs are, you're just a dork.
"But this moron Adamnelson thinks I'm a frequent consumer of holy crackers, he can't even read the comments I guess."
Hey, hey, settle down. I mistook your position on it, and thought you were ironically mistaken. I apologized to TM for snarking at him, but I guess I owe you one too. Can we just, y'know, put this behind us? We've sorta lost track of the thread anyway.
truth machine 1078: explain to me how it would be logically and intellectually impossible for someone (anyone - not just a PZ longtime player) to view PZ's challenge as intending to offend? Whether I see the broader context (which I DO!!!) or not is imaterial. I stand by my statements the gist of which: doesn't surprise me that many will see it as unnecessary roughness.
Wrong it what sense ?
You've not elaborated. It's almost as though you didn't think you needed to. As though it was so fkn obvious what it was you are referring to that it didn't need stating.
And yet you go on to write this as though you're a goldfish...
Suck my balls you pissant. I'm a sicko for stating the obvious ? Something you just concurred with ?
Yeah, well you pretend to get all pissy about that and I'll do something else.
Well for starters, unlike you, I'm the kind who's actually able to level criticism at that holiest of holies, the blog author, rather than bottle it up and nod along.
No worries Neg,
this thread has been really great,we havent had so much fun since the Expelled thing,plenty people here have shown that theyre not able to read or comprehend today...
Nite pharyngulites....
OK, TM, I take it back. You're just a dick. I apologized for barking up the wrong tree, but you won't have any of it. I don't care what your beliefs are, you're just a dork.
It's called crossposting, asshole. But you have no excuse:
Yeah, right, my pointing out that I'm an atheist's atheist in response to your demand that I defend the bible was a distraction. Despite my telling you I'm an atheist, you still couldn't figure out that I'm an atheist.
Fucking cretin.
If you don't approve of stealing consecrated crackers, don't do it.
But Webster didn't steal a cracker. They gave it to him. Right? There are no instructions about what to do with the 'Holy Eucharist', except at Confirmation classes. Some priests will insist right before the celebration that only confirmed Catholics are 'invited' to partake of the Communion; usually only the most hard-hearted and hardcore priests will say something that crass.
Otherwise, what Webster did was not stealing. And it's not stealing for PZ to ask someone to take one from a service and give it to him. Communion is free--supposedly.
Until now, when we need armed guards at Mass. Oy.
But Webster didn't steal a cracker. They gave it to him. Right?
ConcernedJoe isn't talking about Cook, he's talking about PZ's request that someone "smuggle" consecrated crackers to him.
"Well for starters, unlike you, I'm the kind who's actually able to level criticism at that holiest of holies, the blog author, rather than bottle it up and nod along."
I half-agree with you. But I believe the point of PZ's post was to level criticism on the insane reaction to the cracker-theft, and didn't exactly support the act itself. However, I will agree that many people would find his feigned desire to deface holy artefacts (no matter how delicious) offensive. But I honestly believe that he wouldn't walk into a church and piss off the entire congregation.
So in short, I know where you're coming from, and though I find the overall reaction to this incident inane and obscene (over a cracker), I don't endorse defacing the holy reliquary to make a point.
Arun wrote:
There's a vast difference between a cracker and the other things you listed, Arun - being a materialist (if PZ even considers himself that; I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't) doesn't change that.
Except I didn't say "get what's coming", now did I chump. I said he got what he pursued. What he wanted.
You could try and disagree with that rather than just swimming in the gutter with the liars.
Who are we kidding, no you can't.
Adamnelson,
no problemo
[sorry, didn't read your whole post]
And it's not stealing for PZ to ask someone to take one from a service and give it to him.
I think the idea was to get ahold of the wafers after consecration but before communion. (I don't know the workflow of Catholic rituals, so I have no idea if that's possible.)
Oh gawd,I was about to go to bed......
@ Kilo
//Well for starters, unlike you, I'm the kind who's actually able to level criticism at that holiest of holies, the blog author, rather than bottle it up and nod along//
Sorry what?
Ahem,i disagreed with PZ on the cracker desecration issue,did you read my posts? Guess not...
//And yet you go on to write this as though you're a goldfish... //
A goldfish?
Ichthyic to the rescue,I have no idea what the man is talking about ! Some fish thing....
"Fucking cretin."
Get over yourself, douchebag. You're too idiotic and immovable to see that somebody is genuinely sorry for MAKING A MISTAKE. No, you had to keep dishing out the insults.
I don't care anymore if you're an atheist's atheist. Your beliefs are irrelevant, because you're an asshole in character. No belief, or lack of belief, can cover up how you were tragically born without a personality. So unless you'd like to at least accept my apology for mistaking your position through your posts, please keep it to yourself.
Sent a comment to Bruininks with my official Winona State University, Department of Eduction, Chairperson signature. On WSU letterhead, too.
Um...Education (damn my editing abilities!)
And I missed the part where this story was notable anywhere outside of here. So I guess that makes us even.
Did catch Dawson's and Hitchens' books though, their media, social debate about their works, etc. This, not so much. Anyways, we both know what story will bring that big breakthrough, don't we.
explain to me how it would be logically and intellectually impossible for someone (anyone - not just a PZ longtime player) to view PZ's challenge as intending to offend?
Why would I explain to you something that isn't true?
Again, it's just not worth my effort to try to explain something to someone who is so dense that you mischaracterize things that badly.
I have sent this by US mail this morning.
July 11, 2008
President Robert H. Bruininks
202 Morrill Hall
100 Church Street S.E.
University of Minnesota
Minneapolis, MN 55455
Dear President Bruininks,
I am writing in support of Professor P.Z. Meyers. As a lifelong, practicing Roman Catholic I am appalled at the over-the-top reactions of Bill Donohue and his supporters. I assure you, they do not speak for me or for millions of other American Catholics. Their intolerance, ignorance, and hate are a blot on my religion.
I wish only the best for Professor Meyers, for you, and for your university.
"Adamnelson,
no problemo"
Thank you, NE. I appreciate your response after I embarrassed myself like that.
"Sorry what?
Ahem,i disagreed with PZ on the cracker desecration issue,did you read my posts? Guess not..."
Kilo, I think you'll find many of us here who agree on that issue: I also disagree with PZ over the whole willful desecration thing, and I believe that he was merely joking to illustrate a point, insofar as he would not actually perform such an act.
"explain to me how it would be logically and intellectually impossible for someone (anyone - not just a PZ longtime player) to view PZ's challenge as intending to offend?"
I doubt he said it purely, or even incidentally, to offend. He said it jokingly; he won't go and broadcast a video of him desecrating a bunch of crackers. He is mocking the over-the-top reaction to the whole incident, Kilo.
Winona State University
If there's no other reason to come to this blog, at least I get to learn the names of some more US educational institutions.
I'd never heard of that one before - I'm not being snide; I don't live in the US and I'm not an academic, so outside of movies and tv I'm not that familiar with much other than the 'biggies'.
Glenn D. in comment #10 said:
"P.S. You can do whatever you wish, of course, but it's still in bad taste (and offensive to a lot of grannies) to desecrate the host."
Why is it in bad taste? Unless you're talking about the wafers themselves...
Why should religion get automagical respect? It's woo. Highly organized woo, but still woo. Do we 'respect' astrologers? No. Snake-oil salesmen? No. Faith healers? No again. Why does literal-but-not-really-"wink"-cannibalism-of-space-zombies deserve our respect? Because more people will be put out by it than when we make fun of psychics?
What's in bad taste is that it hasn't been done enough. Ridicule is a legitimate weapon in the fight against sky-faeries.
It's a cracker like the flag is a piece of cloth, or the Constitution is a piece of paper or books are fuel for fires like wood, or Michelangelo's David is a slab of marble. There are ideas and values bound with things - PZ Myers in his purely materialistic vein tends to forget that human beings do that.
That's utter bullshit. Flags are indeed pieces of cloth, which is why sensible people don't object to burning them or wearing them on your butt. But the Constitution is not a piece of paper, it's an abstract document that is recorded on many kinds of media -- unless you mean the original copies, which have historical value. The same for books -- it's the content that matters. As for Michelangelo's David, it's a unique work of art of great quality by a long dead master -- it cannot be replaced, quite unlike a communion wafer. I have seen people shed tears upon seeing the David in person because of its great beauty and power.
As for ideas and values bound with things -- PZ doesn't forget that at all. The whole point is that the ideas and values bound with communion wafers are intellectually and morally bankrupt.
"Do we 'respect' astrologers? No. Snake-oil salesmen? No. Faith healers? No again."
Don't we? I'm sure you don't go into a psychic's office and tear down her bead curtains, or into the astrologer's shop and shatter all her quartz. So the answer is that you respect these people insofar as they are still people, and you don't go out of your way to interrupt their daily lives.
But I agree with you still. Ridicule IS appropriate, but ridicule for constructive purposes and not just to piss people off, which people often forget.
Get over yourself, douchebag. You're too idiotic and immovable to see that somebody is genuinely sorry for MAKING A MISTAKE. No, you had to keep dishing out the insults.
I dished out what you deserved, you hypocritical scumbag. You're new here, but you took no time making a complete ass of yourself.
Daddy-O 1105: PZ said" .. if any of you would be willing to do what it takes to get me some, or even one, and mail it to me.." Ambiguous -- do what it takes means to many a vet like me - do what it takes [even if not by the book]. Others may construe it similarly as beg, borrow or STEAL.
My point however was there are many ethical issues with this all that we could discuss. For instance is it stealing to appropriate something under false pretenses? For instance if I give you $100 to buy meds for your baby and you instead buy hash for yourself - is that stealing? Is taking a wafer from a priest stealing when he offers it as a sign of your communion with the group knowing that said priest would not gift it to you if truth be told?
I am NOT a cracker defender .. I am 100% atheist .. but for the love of reason and freedom remember we have an additional burden to be strict on ourselves, fair in our dealings, and thoughtful that our approaches are humble and chariable. We rightfully cast aside stupid and mind numbing religion and its ancient thinking, hopefully to allow ourselves to enter a wider world of honor and goodness. It ain't all about not believing in a sky-daddy to many of us.
For what it's worth, anybody who walks into a church, synagogue, mosque, or ethical culture society facility to create a disturbance should be unceremoniously drop-kicked outta there.
Of course Donahue is a goon and a thug, and PZ's ability to freely fulminate on-line should be supported.
Someone thought Truth Machine, OM was a fundie? Now that's funny!
Golly, can't imagine why you wouldn't want me using my handle on this letter. ;-)
I'll send one via Ye Olde Fashioned Snaille Mail anyway.
mreap, I'm wondering if we've ever met. I live right next to campus and know several of the faculty/administration.
So unless you'd like to at least accept my apology for mistaking your position through your posts, please keep it to yourself.
I'm not going to keep to myself that you're such a stupid dick that you would say that I was offering a distraction by pointing out that I'm an atheist (and have an OM). You didn't merely make a mistake, you were a pathetic stupid jackass.
I sent an email as soon as i read the post. Although i now feel slightly inadequate given the length and eloquence of some of the other expressions of support.
Hope it helps calm the waters nonetheless: I dislike witch hunts of all sorts. Especially when they involve a victimless crime such as blasphemy or sacrilege.
"The whole point is that the ideas and values bound with communion wafers are intellectually and morally bankrupt."
I disagree. As a SYMBOL, the communion wafer can and does mean a lot to people, even if it's ridiculous (the literal view of it as flesh, however, IS ridiculous). David is also a symbol of power and perfection of form, but it is still just that -- a symbol. It has power because people attach great meaning to it, just as others attach meaning to the cracker.
Standing in awe under David, or marvelling at the revolutionary content of the Constitution, is exactly the same neuronal response as marvelling at the cracker: sane people understand it is just a cracker, but also a powerful symbol. We must not forget that.
You cannot say that someone's morals are bankrupt because they come from a symbol we find repugnant. We CAN criticize them for threatening others with death over it, but in all honesty, if somebody can function in society, who cares WHERE they get their morals from?
To all out there -- I know that we can rationalize PZ's actions to be positive in the context of our positive relationship to him.
It is still a fair question and an important one to those interested in winning hearts and minds: "explain to me how it would be logically and intellectually [dishonest and] impossible for someone (anyone - not just a PZ longtime player) to view PZ's challenge as intending to offend?" And that is what I asked. I leave it rhetorically for what it seems worth.
And you're showing that being a veteran is no impediment to making a complete ass of yourself. The guy apologized to you. Either accept his apology and move on or not, but move on.
/signed/
Another new guy
And for those who do, there's "clubs" for that kind of thing.
Lot of em tailored towards defacing Jewish landmarks and black churches but hey, it's all religion.
"I dished out what you deserved, you hypocritical scumbag. You're new here, but you took no time making a complete ass of yourself."
I got what I deserved eh? An eye for an eye? Such morality.
"Someone thought Truth Machine, OM was a fundie? Now that's funny!"
I thought that because he was a complete ass. He's just a fundie in a different camp.
"You didn't merely make a mistake, you were a pathetic stupid jackass."
First off, I don't know or care what an OM is. You can't get over your stupid self enough to even get back to the message. But based on your posts here, I can say that you are probably one of the dumbest people on this blog, and BY FAR the dumbest atheist here. I thought you were a fundie because you foam at the mouth like a fundie. And like I said before, your lack of beliefs don't cover up how much of an ass you are.
Now this is the last time I will justify your idiocy with a response, and I will end on this note: you may praise yourself as open-minded and a fellow atheist, but you're a dick. Pure and simple.
A worthy life goal:
Get people into your power by building a bunch of roomy, pointy-towered buildings, play dress up, invite people inside (playing sonorous, loud music helps) for free, spout nonsense, then have them ritually eat something bland made out of wheat and tell them it's the most special thing in the world.
I remember how terrible I felt when I stopped going up to ommunion. I thought I was doing something wrong by not following the other sheep up to the altar.
If they can get you to do the cracker thing, they know they've got you hooked. When I got myself to stop doing the cracker thing, and stopped giving in to that impulse to follow the herd of people up to that altar, I was on my way to freedom from the brainwashing that is religion.
You're all so fucking brave behind your computers aren't you?
I think it's about time for a real Christian "fatwa." Die fuckers. Time for some real firepower. A new civil war. Time for all the atheists to be gathered together and fucking drowned.
A nice email has been sent to the president, I hope it helps you PZ.
Hey PZ,
I was a bit presumtuous and decided to write the President yesterday asking that he ignore the outcry for the blatent stupidity of the entire ordeal.
When I saw the email address on BD's website I thought it was going to be bad, so I wrote a nice happy email. Probably one of the only ones that day that wasn't typed in ALL CAPS and filled with various curses.
Wow! After reading a thread full of so many examples of the superior God-Given Morality and Christian Love we've all heard so much about from religious posters how could a reasonable person do anything other than sign up to the Catholic League without delay?
Just kidding - my email of support for PZ has been sent, hope it helps (sorry if I'm a bit late to the party)!
Seriously, after this ludicrous incident they have the gall to say us atheists are the bigoted, hate-filled ones? Sheesh!
"And you're showing that being a veteran is no impediment to making a complete ass of yourself. The guy apologized to you. Either accept his apology and move on or not, but move on."
Thanx, JoJo. I know the vast majority of users here are quite accommodating, being a longtime reader and short-time commenter. TM is living proof that idiocy and ignorance are not limited to sectarian beliefs, and can even infect those who claim to hold the side of reason.
"It is still a fair question and an important one to those interested in winning hearts and minds:"
First off, I'm not sure that's a worthy goal. Sure, I will raise my kids to think intellectually and objectively, and I will support them even if they identify with a faith, but I for one am certainly not interested in proselytizing (sp. maybe?) the virtues of rationality and atheism. I believe that people who actually think about the world will arrive at that viewpoint themselves, and they need no help from us. Frankly, that's what separates us from mainstream faiths: the lack of will to convert. In my opinion, it's also the most refreshing.
But still, I agree with you. If I were in the other camp, PZ's comments would offend me (the ones about defacing crackers, which I still hold was a joke). However, I support his right to say such things on a public blog with no private affiliation.
First I may be misinterpreting your question, but assuming I am not...
So, his reaction to death threats by threatening to soil a cracker (one I doubt seriously he would have carried out, he was making a point) is unwarranted or over the line? Yes it was meant to offend. To offend a group of people who so overreacted to a stupid prank that some of their members threated to murder the kid. Attempts to offend were and are warranted. You do not have a right to not be offended.
The kids stunt was stupid but the reaction of the dumbfucks was not in measure to the offense. PZ's response was so far below the level of the Catholics, including blowhard of all blowhards Donohue.
I disagree.
You again misunderstand -- because you simply don't read what is written. Arun wrote "PZ Myers in his purely materialistic vein tends to forget that human beings do that". I responded that "PZ doesn't forget that at all. The whole point is that the ideas and values bound with communion wafers are intellectually and morally bankrupt." That's about PZ's point.
As a SYMBOL, the communion wafer can and does mean a lot to people, even if it's ridiculous (the literal view of it as flesh, however, IS ridiculous).
Of course it can and does. Like I just said, "PZ doesn't forget that at all". Sheesh. But that it means a lot to them doesn't mean that those ideas are intellectually and morally bankrupt. To say that the beliefs are ridiculous is pretty close to saying they are intellectually bankrupt. So you're again disagreeing with those who agree with you, it seems.
Standing in awe under David, or marvelling at the revolutionary content of the Constitution, is exactly the same neuronal response as marvelling at the cracker: sane people understand it is just a cracker, but also a powerful symbol. We must not forget that.
No, it isn't. The response to David is not because of it's symbolism, it's because of its direct aesthetic effect. People often refine their reaction when they learn of the symbolism that Michelangelo intended, but that's not on the same order of the initial reaction. People weep upon seeing the David even after seeing its picture and reading about it in books because it is so magnificent, it has such a direct emotional impact.
You cannot say that someone's morals are bankrupt because they come from a symbol we find repugnant. We CAN criticize them for threatening others with death over it, but in all honesty, if somebody can function in society, who cares WHERE they get their morals from?
You have serious reading comprehension problems. What I said is morally bankrupt is the morals bound to the wafer. It's the morality that's repugnant, not the wafer.
Fun as this is, I must go. See you around, newbie.
Done, and with pleasure.
Doppelganger, that sounds an awful lot like a death threat. Not too smart are you? You know that your IP has been recorded, yes? You also know that people like me, see I'm one of those nerdy IT guys (more of the management type now) that can trace you, pretty easily actually. Oh, sure, we'll need the subpoena once I trace the IP back to your ISP to get your account information, but it will take very little time.
So, would you like to make yet another death threat so that we can get the traces going?
Sensible people don't object to fucking either and yet it's a leading motive for murder.
Would you like to declare that you've realised homicide itself is not sensible and then just STFU about it or is there some more discovery left to do here on the topic ?
FFS already.
"I think it's about time for a real Christian "fatwa." Die fuckers. Time for some real firepower. A new civil war. Time for all the atheists to be gathered together and fucking drowned."
The very image of cowering, wetting-your-pants fear. Poor guy is so terribly threatened.
Also, I agree with the good Reverend's above post: the post was designed to criticize the overt reaction to the incident. Incidentally, PZ said something I disagreed with (the will to desecrate more crackers) but I agree with the overarching message of calling out insanity when it is detected.
One more point:
marvelling at the revolutionary content of the Constitution
First, wafers have no content; everything of import comes from outside the wafer, whereas the significance of the Constitution is due to what it says. And people don't simply "marvel" at it, like the David. Being law, it's an effective document, with consequences, consequences that we largely are glad of. Or at least it used to be.
Ok even with all the dumb comments, this one is up there with the dumbest.
Attacks on Jews and Blacks in the contexts you are referring, were a cultural racial attack on a people. You even hinting at this being even close shows your utterly myopic understanding of history and this incident.
Wow that is just fucking stupid.
Email Sent:
Dear Sir,
In respect to the recent controversy between the personal opinion voiced by Professor P.Z. Myers and members of the Catholic Church over the status of a Eucharist wafer, I hope you'll take a moment to view these remarks.
I am writing in support of Professor Myers. It would be a shame if the mob opinion of a large group or organization could lead to the summary expulsion of a Professor at a University over something as simple as expressing a personal opinion. I hope you and your institution will not be moved by the posturing and emotional threats of a group that is so obviously over-reacting, and that you and the University of Minnesota will continue to recognize Professor Myer's constitutionally protected right to freedom of speech and opinion.
Kind Regards,
J. Hunt
Calgary, Alberta
Canada.
Wowbagger 1108,
I think you are wrong there.
There is no difference between a cracker, a piece of cloth, or a piece of paper, or a piece of marble.
If you are the owner of these artifacts, and you do not wish to recongnize the additional sentimental or symbolic or sacred value that they may have (the cracker -> body of christ = sacred symbol of your faith, piece of cloth -> flag = symbol of your country, piece of paper -> constitution = all your rights, piece of marble -> work of art) you may wish to destroy it or desecrate it or burn it for whatever reason or to voice your differences, this is all as the courts say closely akin to pure speech, and therefore constitutionally protected.
Now of course, if you do this to someone else's property it's another question.
You cannot argue that the sentimental value which is added to the cracker is less for a catholic than the sentimental value which is added to the piece of paper for a defender of the constitution. This doesn't make sense.
The only way to defend your right is to say that you have no obligation to recognize this sentimental value, as long as you are not infringing their property nor dirupting their services. That's all there is to it. Which is quite simple really.
I have a hard time not thinking Poe with this coming from someone named Doppleganger.
It's amusing how some catholics seem to speak of tolerance, conveniently forgetting that the doctrines of their homophobic, misogynistic, crap of a religion is intolerant to the majority of humanity.
"The response to David is not because of it's symbolism, it's because of its direct aesthetic effect."
Same shit, different pile. You look at David and you see his characteristic pose, his expression, his form, etc. and your response is caused by how our brains react to such images after evolving in an environment where such reactions were directly or indirectly integral to survival. It's basically subconscious, instinctive symbolism. The communion wafer is the same thing, but less abstract.
"You have serious reading comprehension problems."
The very characteristic of an intellectually-unsound argument (which, ironically, is also an ad-hom, but whatever).
"People weep upon seeing the David even after seeing its picture and reading about it in books because it is so magnificent, it has such a direct emotional impact."
But it ISN'T magnificent, not at all. Magnificence isn't a property of matter. Magnificence is IMPLIED onto it by how our brains interpret it. Same thing with rituals such as the wafer.
Anyways, I digress. The point is that morality is bankrupt ONLY if it impedes on the rights and comforts of others, and has nothing to do with whether it's attached to a wafer, or our own deduction, or an invisible sky-daddy.
Short, polite email duly sent.
But based on your posts here, I can say that you are probably one of the dumbest people on this blog, and BY FAR the dumbest atheist here.
You're again just making a fool of yourself; the smart people here know better. ta ta.
it gives me insight on how you athiest clowns think
Fortunately, you Christians have your own websites, like www.godhatesfags.com, to tell me how people like you think, Starbuck.
Either that or the basis of what's defended is on what's being attacked.
A totally awesome comeback would be for you or anyone else to point out where you've done something similar to Islam.
Perhaps we could scientifically test whether this is a clueless intuition or simply an accurate statement borne out by the evidence in the archives here. That some faiths must be specifically targetted while others get a pass. Eh ?
Let's all pretend together that we don't already know what the answer is.
Is it me or does it seem that some comments are coming and going?
PZ mentioned their database gets screwy when threads get over 1000. We're far past that here.
You look at David and you see his characteristic pose, his expression, his form, etc.
You really really are stupid. The reaction to a wafer is not because of the loveliness of its grain. Pointing out the that the reaction to the David is mediated through the symbolic nature of human consciousness is a strawman that misses the point entirely.
Ok, I'm really out of here now.
"Being law, it's an effective document, with consequences, consequences that we largely are glad of."
But it isn't. (The Constitution) It was entirely made by people, sculpted of words made by people. The only reason it means anything it all is because we understand the language, and we accept the values it espouses as desireable. If you took that constitution to an authoritarian society with people who supported said society, it would be scorned and scoffed at. It means something to us because we agree with it.
"You're again just making a fool of yourself; the smart people here know better. ta ta."
I thought you were leaving.
Oops, I accidentally mailed my PZ/NBwaW slash fic instead.
Heh heh, not really.
About the mailing part.
ConcernedJoe,
Fixed that for you and now I am willing to address your concerns. So answer me this.
My understanding is that when you are given something it becomes yours and they can't force you to commit a particular act with it. Thus if I give you a condom I can force you to use it.
In this case the person was given a substandard cracker and was being forced to eat it, NOW. He decided he was going to show it to a friend and eat it later, and he may have done so before he even showed up. That doesn't matter because nobody asked him to sign a contract and, hell, no one even asked him what he was going to do. They just assumed.
When they realized that they had assumed wrong they decided to use force. They assaulted him. Do you think a group distributing condoms has the right to assault someone they just handed a condom if that person decides to use it later, or even to blow it up like a ballon? Sure they have the right not to hand them another condom but the one they already distributed is out of their control. Especially if they stick it directly in someones mouth.
Message of support sent, real name and all. Keep fighting the good fight, PZ.. we're with you.
Email Sent:
Mr. President,
You've probably gotten lots of mail about this, so I'll keep it short. I support Prof. Meyers and urge you to resist giving in to the Catholic Leagues attempt at bullying. Please do not reward such immature and pathetic behavior.
You know what would be awesome? Once PZ gets the sanctified cracker, he could have actual scientists to establish that the cracker is NOT, in fact, human remains. I'm not a professional scientist, but I imagine that it shouldn't be too hard :-).
"How can I desecrate the body of Christ when it's not actually a body?"
Science for the win!
We are all critical of any religious stupidity. It just so happens this blog and many of us live in the US. We deal with Catholic and other Christian sects stupidity far more often than that of Hindu, Islam, Native tribes of Indonesia and other forms here so it is reflected such.
"You really really are stupid."
Once again, I thought you left. Also, do you kiss your mother with that mouth? Here's a tip: you'd have friends if you weren't a dork.
"Pointing out the that the reaction to the David is mediated through the symbolic nature of human consciousness is a strawman that misses the point entirely."
Not at all. But you miss my point entirely. What I am trying to say is that it doesn't matter where morals or thoughts or feelings come from or what they are bound to; the only thing that matters is how they affect the lives of others.
Just sent the email. Good luck...
"We are all critical of any religious stupidity. It just so happens this blog and many of us live in the US. We deal with Catholic and other Christian sects stupidity far more often than that of Hindu, Islam, Native tribes of Indonesia and other forms here so it is reflected such."
Agreed (well, I live in Canada, but we get half our culture from the south anyway). PZ calls out religious stupidity indiscriminately; it's just that Christian stupidity is in far greater suppy 'round these here parts.
"You're all so fucking brave behind your computers aren't you?
I think it's about time for a real Christian "fatwa." Die fuckers. Time for some real firepower. A new civil war. Time for all the atheists to be gathered together and fucking drowned."
Irony much? Thanks for proving Christians at their worst are just like Muslims in that oh so clubby, sectarian, divisive, acrimonious and petulant way. When you're getting your ass whooped, best resort to mass violence. That'll show 'em.
YAWN.
Prof. Myers, I read here on occasion, but I hadn't read that previous post. As a Catholic, I find it in extremely poor taste, and I really think you might do more to promote understanding of science if you refrained from mocking religion.
Nevertheless, it's ridiculous that the writing of a professor at a public university should be dictated by (a poor and borderline-fascist representative of) the Catholic Church or any other faith. I've written a letter to Pres. Bruininks saying much the same and asking him to ignore Donohue and his devotees.
Negentropyeater, #1153
That's a very good point. Consider my thinking a lack of understanding of the significance of faith-based concepts of 'sacred'; I'm one of those (apparently) rare posters here who's not a deconvert from religion.
Oh, and it's only just occurred to me that whoever it was that chose David perhaps made a poor choice for an analogy - since it is, in many ways, as much a religious symbol as the wafer!
Concern troll remix from another thread:
But what if that ad had a picture of someone TAKING A DUMP in a policeman's hat? It would be hypocritical to protest that ad when a dog is just as offensive to some people!
No, you're just fucking stupid since I didn't hint at that.
All I said was you're fucking stupid for going there and then defending it, like you can find others doing if you so wish.
We're on a blog you tool. Reckon there be anything writeable that you could call for don't put yall in league with the kinds of shit you can find on Stormfront ?
Eh ? No ? Nothing registering ?
BTW I'd love to hear about your non-utterly myopic understanding of history which somehow missed the fact that racism and bigotry thinly veiled under all manner of surrogate concerns has pretty much been the norm for longer than either of us have been alive.
Or pehaps you'd like to tell us that a perception of disproportionate Jewish influence over media/banks/world hasn't in any way seen Jews cast as actually doing so. More to the point.
So that's a "no" then ?
So in the original story, the guy took the cracker and didn't eat it, trying to take it out of the church.
Question - what was the church going to do with the cracker if they got it back from him? give it to someone else for communion? Save it and preserve it in a little shrine for....something? Burn it, like you'd burn a ruined flag? Put it in the garbage? Un-consecrate it?
If you could un-consecrate a cracker, why didn't they just unconsecrate the one the guy took? Presto, no more problem!
Not a catholic, or any organized religion, so no particular axe to grind.
Just wondering why it is that people who proudly claim to be atheists, which is all fine and good for them, seem to believe that the more they can stir up others, the better.
If you don't like religion or overly religious people, great. One of those personal decisions that is every persons absolute right.
But why make it a 'cause' to make sure that any rancor stirred up is continued and made worse by attacking the attacker?
It accomplishes, what?
That's right, nothing more then being able to claim, "Well 'they' started it".
Finally, ever notice how so very many of the in your face atheists are "proud liberals"?
Guess it's a little difficult to supplant one religion, liberalism, with another.
And this is an 'educated' dude?
How wonderful.
And he's 'educating' the next generation?
Even more wonderful.
(Last four lines are intended as sarcasm. Just in case some can't see the obvious.)
The people upthread comparing the symbolism of the Eucharist to the Constitution etc. are missing something important. These are Catholics: they don't believe it's a symbol, they believe it's the actual body (or "essence" thereof). A comparable belief would be saying the destruction of the physical Constitution is tantamount to the elimination of the United States. It's orders of magnitudes dumber. This whole nonsense would never have happened with the Anglicans (or the worst evangelicals, for that matter). I mean there's nothing irrational about using physical objects as symbols. It's the equation of the symbol with the symbolized that is just daft.
Cary writes:
Whatever happened to "turn the other cheek"?
I don't think they're allowed to double-punch altarboys any more.
Kilo said:
Will this do?
Some of you seem to have missed my point.
I understand that many Catholics throughout history have behaved violently. That cannot be denied. But it also cannot be denied that the act of a Catholic receiving the Eucharist during a Mass is completely harmless to you. It has no effect on anyone who is not involved.
I for one do not object to your continued and regrettable mockery of what I consider to be God's Flesh and Blood. I only object to the threats many of you, including the professor, have made to disrupt the Catholic Mass by taking the Eucharist and misusing it. You have essentially promised to do something that will result in grief for the millions and millions of Catholics who have never done anything to you in order to get back at the handful of Catholics who have attacked you.
Do you not see how this is only going to result in more hatred? As I said, if you are upset with a handful of Catholics, take it up with them. It is wrong to attack all Catholics because of the bad actions of a few - it's not only a fallacy of logic, but it's also going to result in more grief for yourselves.
I don't expect you to respect my beliefs. You can compare the Eucharist, which I fall to my knees and worship every Sunday, to a box of Ritz crackers all day long, and all I'll do in return is offer prayers to God that all hatred should come to an end. But you must understand that when you do so, you shouldn't be surprised that the result of doing so will be an increase in bigotry in society.
Exposing the hypocrisy of Catholics who threaten violence against you is a far more effective strategy than attacking Catholics in general.
Dear President Bruininks:
I wish to add my voice in support of Prof. P.Z. Myers' right to express his views regarding the theft of a communion wafer (otherwise known as a cracker to most rational beings) by a student at the University of Central Florida. The professor's public reaction to the incident was a measured and appropriate response to the attempts at retribution and intimidation directed at the UCF student by some members of the Roman Catholic Church community. Now those same tactics are being directed at Prof. Myers for bringing attention to them.
Arguments have been put forward that Prof. Myers violated your university's Code of Conduct. The fact is that the professor's comments were disseminated using non-university facilities. The Code of Conduct cannot apply unless, of course, it is a University of Minnesota condition of employment that its employees forfeit their constitutional rights of freedom of expression.
Prof. Myers was compelled to speak out against injustice and irrationality. Yes, he was disrespectful, though not without humor. However, that disrespect was warranted and necessary. Not all belief systems are deserving of respect, especially when there is the attempt to impose such beliefs on those who reject them. At best, those beliefs, such as the tenants of religions, are due only tolerance. At worst, beliefs that seek to oppress, restrain, impose, intimidate, stifle the mind, etc. are only worthy of contempt.
I am dismayed that all this Sturm und Drang is over the theft of a cracker that was supposedly endowed with significance by a force operating outside the natural universe that cannot be detected by any scientific method and, therefore, cannot possibly exist. Prof. Myers' public statements against superstition and the immunity from criticism that all religions currently enjoy are to be commended and encouraged. Prof. Myers' stance is, in that timeworn phrase, a matter of principle.
Thank you for reading this.
Is it an inabilty to type,unfamiliarity with standard conventions,personal affectation,or the pecularities of some people's software that so many messages are posted without spaces after the commas? It greats on me like misspelld wurds.
Keep safe, PZ!
Just sent off my letter of support to your university president, PZ. An actual letter. Been awhile since I've done that. Good luck, and keep up the good work!
ConcernedJoe,
And besides these guys are such wackjobs they see crimes other than the actual ones happening. A guy steals a purse and they think it's about "Attacker who stole Eucharist gets jail." What do they think the guy had x-ray vision and saw the cracker in her purse.
If that's the case maybe he stole it because he was hungry for a cracker and he saw it with his x-ray vision. Besides I thought this whole thing was about forcing people to eat these things.
Then it gets really bizzare when the theif turns out to be a Catholic himself and is brought to tears, presumably because he stole the five cent cracker and not the $50 in the purse from a nun.
This real theft is made farkworthy by these irrational beliefs. In this case a real crime unlike the one being invented here in the case of the student, Cook. At most, if Cook had actually signed a contract, you might get him on breach of a five cent contract. That's civil not criminal.
Elevating sacriledge to the level of murder or worse is a old and very direputable means of persecuting non-believers, and I'm not talking just about atheists. Catholics persecuted the Jews during the middle ages over imagined eucharist desecration and blood libel. Muslims to the day are murdering non-Muslims for desecrating drinking cups and qurans.
I'm not buying it. It's just an excuse to have a privileged place in society for the self. I'm a Christian, I'm a Muslim, and I matter more. My holy book defames you and incites violence against you but that's allowed. Why? Because it's religion.
As someone who has been an avid reader and supporter of your efforts to keep Christianists from fucking up our science by injecting religion, I would hope you would understand that I (while disagreeing with Bill Donahue) would like it if atheist scientists would not threaten to mess with a sacrament of my church. I believe the way you do about science and disagree with you about religion, so I do feel you shouldn't be so needlessly provocative and offensive. I honestly think you should apologize, sir.
And for those who do, there's "clubs" for that kind of thing. Lot of em tailored towards defacing Jewish landmarks and black churches but hey, it's all religion.
Kilo, you disingenuous twit. "Clubs" for "that kind of thing"? Go look up "Judenberg", where all the Jews in Berlitz were burned on the spot in 1243. By evil atheists? Um, no, it was the good Catholics, who believed that they had desecrated the Host. 1337, Deggendorf. 1410, Segovia. 1510, Knoblauch. Tons more - go look up "Host desecration" on Wikipedia. Seem like the Catholic Church was pretty much a "club for that kind of thing". Project much, asshole?
Starbuck @ #11:
Possibly because organized groups of gays, blacks, or Jews aren't trying to scuttle the teaching of fact-based science in the name of gayness, blackness, or jewishness? After all, this is a scienceblog.
Oh, and the Christian-based groups inevitably will draw the most fire, given that various forms of Christianity are the dominant religion in these h'yar parts, and Christian-based anti-science organizations are the ones trying to legislate their religious tenets into the teaching of science. I feel sure that, if we were seeing similar action from Islamic- or Hindu- or Asatru-based organizations, Dr. Myers would light into them with similar diligence.
I can't see that anyone here, and certainly not PZ, threatened to disrupt a mass. Please take a pill, and try actually reading what he wrote.
I am sending a formal letter of support today. Given the diversity of religions in
this country, everybody is probably desecrating something of religious value
to someone else. Some churches sit on land sacred to Native Americans, for
instance. Cows are being slaughtered by Christians, desecrating an animal
that is more than just an animal to many Hindus. Drawings of Muhammad
are getting people killed. We can go on and on.
This is my 2cents...
I sincerely hope that you will not take up the cause of the crusaders bent on persecuting PZ Myers. To accommodate the irrational beliefs of one group requires the accommodation of all regardless of number or foolhardiness. As a free speaking society all individuals have 2 fundamental rights:
•The right to offend
•The right to be offended
Individuals in the realm of public discussion incapable of defending their stance within the realm of public discussion should not have recourse to prevent others from participating in the discourse. Doing so results in a muted society where the voice that should be heard is intimidated into silence.
The truism for the individual applies equally to the intuitions of a free speaking society. In accommodating the will of one ideal over another, the institution only diminishes its claim to represent the whole of society and serves to further the coercion of others. If an institution truly wants to speak on behalf of all then it must provide and foster the realm of public discourse and assist individuals in developing the tools necessary to enter the fray of rhetoric.
email sent
I'll be upfront - I am an atheist. All of them are wrong - Jews, Wiccans, Muslims, Buddhists, Catholics, Satanists, Protestants.... You name it - they're belief systems have as much validity as triskaidekaphobians. But I will fight for the right of everybody to practice and believe to their heart's content* (*as long as it does no harm to others, or they do not force their beliefs on others, or restrict others who do not believe as they do... Sorry, Bill Donahue - you are a loser on that front)
What Cook did, though, was rude. If he wanted a wafer for study of some sort, he should have asked for one (preferably unconsecrated). Granted - that's one HUGE mountain that the church, university, and blowhard (Donahue) are making of a tiny, tiny molehill. Get a life, folks. Get a freaking life.
PZ - I have to disagree with your stance on this, as far as your request for wafers to be desecrated. You would consider somebody burning books to be essentially desecrating science (and reality) - this is no different to them.
I will write to your university's administration pleading with them to keep you unharmed. But just because someone is superstitious does not mean they are not due some leeway for those superstitions.
(I have to admit, though, Jon H's comment of "What could be a worse thing to do to a eucharist wafer than eating one and turning it into poop?" slammed a bit of reality into the situation...)
nitpicker: "I believe the way you do about science and disagree with you about religion, so I do feel you shouldn't be so needlessly provocative and offensive. I honestly think you should apologize, sir."
Apologize for not respecting people who make death threats because somebody didn't want to eat a cracker? Apologize for not respecting people who demand the return of a cracker that's already been in somebody's mouth?
I think the Catholic assholes who have been making a big deal about a worthless cracker need to apologize to the student. The same assholes should apologize to PZ for threatening to kill him.
But you think PZ, who was threatened with death, should apologize to the Catholic terrorists.
I think PZ has been far too polite about this whole thing. These Catholics have been total assholes and they deserve nothing but ridicule. I personally plan to shove this cracker incident into the faces of Catholic morons for the rest of my life. Catholics must never be allowed to forget they are no better than Muslim terrorists.
One omission from my post that I regret - those SOBs that are sending death threats to PZ?
I certainly hope
- they stop trying to claim to be christians;
- PZ gets the FBI on their asses;
- they ultimately rot in their own personal hells.
"I only object to the threats many of you, including the professor, have made to disrupt the Catholic Mass by taking the Eucharist and misusing it."
Where exactly did anyone say they were going to disrupt a mass?
Funny that the only thing you object to is in your imagination.
Not to mention this was all in response to death treats and attempts to expel the student in question.
What part of PERSPECTIVE is so confusing to all the isiot concern trolls?
I consider book burning rather silly at best, barbaric at worst. However, if a group of book-burners were threatened with death because of their actions, I might be tempted to join in. Because at that point, it's no longer about the act of burning the books. It's about standing up to bullies who oppose freedom of expression. The same principle applies here. Engaging in desecration just to piss people off is very different from doing so as an act of defiance against a group who would happily prevent you from doing so had they the power.
No that's exactly what you were doing.
Sure but were talking about a wafer here. Yes a wafer that hold some significance to its believers. A small prank not threatening violence unlike the two groups you specifically chose to mention above. Not even in the same league.
Damn, and I thought I was in Jamaica.
You'll have to forgive me, while I come do from the south, I'm having a hard time discerning what you mean there.
No, but if you explain that last bit maybe.
(Here's the snail mail text I'm sending President Bruininks. I hope it helps)
President Bruiniks:
I am writing in support of Associate Professor P.Z. Myers, who teaches at your University and who is the target of a write-in campaign for his ouster initiated by the Catholic League.
His "offense" (and I use the word advisedly) is nothing greater than expressing his opinion on a matter in Florida, one completely unrelated to his professional responsibilities to the University and which was entirely independent of any association with your institution.
I myself was born, baptized and raised Roman Catholic, and I personally find the original matter Professor Myers commented as ridiculous as he does. If anything the language and actions employed here by Doctor Bill Donohue and his organization are the more offensive and deplorable, both as a Catholic and a human being.
I urge you to resist their demands for Professor Myers' removal. He has done nothing to warrant it and has in no way embarrassed or undermined the University. Please do not give these extremists their satisfaction.
Thank you for reading.
PZ is a godless liberal (as the masthead of Pharyngula makes perfectly clear.) No apology by PZ is necessary, as far as I'm concerned. If he finds he is wrong based on facts, like any good scientist, he would be first to admit it, I'm sure.
"Ann Coulter says 'godless' like it's a bad thing." - Betty Bowers, America's Best Christian
"As someone who has been an avid reader and supporter of your efforts to keep Christianists from fucking up our science by injecting religion, I would hope you would understand that I (while disagreeing with Bill Donahue) would like it if atheist scientists would not threaten to mess with a sacrament of my church."
Yeah, and I would like it if christian asshats would not mess with my freedom of speech and the catholic church would die a quiet death.
"I believe the way you do about science and disagree with you about religion, so I do feel you shouldn't be so needlessly provocative and offensive."
But it is not *needlessly* provocative and offensive. In fact, there is great need to provoke and offend.
"I honestly think you should apologize, sir."
I honestly think you should think about what you are defending.
So are you saying he's the Athiest?
My email of support sent.
Letter sent:
President Bruininks,
Dr. Myers is a wealth of creativity and rigorous intellectual honesty, traits which are the foundation of higher education in America. I hereby offer my support of the heat that he creates in his blog and feel that its content in no way contradicts his duty as a public intellectual. Dr. Myers excites students and the public about evolution, secularism, and learning, while never contradicting the oath of honesty demanded by those who maintain the collegiate experience. Sadly, such a person cannot exist without being disputed/hated/threatened by people with principles that conflict those of academia.
Forgive my presumption, but it is your job to ensure that such treatment does not change the course of academia. To that end, this is someone you cannot afford to lose.
Sincerely,
Well you asked if we could "Scientifically test" it.
What sort of test do you propose? What data will be used to support the two outcomes you gave us? Are there other possible outcomes?
Is it possible that the rest of my comment is possible? That we, like most people, respond to out environment and being that we deal with Christian nonsense the most that we would respond to it the most?
My apologies; apparently I have still failed to make myself clear.
I have been told repeatedly that Professor Myers has not threatened to disrupt a Catholic Mass; he has only threatened to misuse the Eucharist.
However, the theft of the Eucharist constitutes an extreme disruption of the Catholic Mass, and it would only serve to foster anger and hatred between Catholics and atheists. Did you not read what Bill Donohue said? He doesn't care that Professor Myers has no respect for Catholic beliefs. He cares that the professor has threatened to desecrate the Eucharist. While to you it may be just a cracker, you must understand that it's not a cracker to us.
Are you not almost all committed to the ideas of atheism? Do you not believe your way of thinking to be the most logical and rational? You could make yourselves look far better if you were merely to condemn the Catholics who are threatening violence rather than threatening to misuse the Eucharist, which is, in and of itself, a disruption of the Catholic Mass.
If you were stick to condemning violent Catholics, this controversy would end immediately. Otherwise, it will continue. It's your choice.
Tim Miller - Raleigh, NC, Are you sure you want to compare the desecration of a cracker to burning books?
I agree it's not nice to desecrate something that's sacred to the Catholic terrorists. But isn't that the point? There's no reason to be nice to idiots. They should be laughed at, insulted, ridiculed, and anything that annoys them should be done. The world would be thousands of times better if all religions were eradicated. Religious insanity will never be eradicated if rational people continue to respect the breathtaking stupidity of god-soaked morons.
Message to the President sent...please keep up the good work.
Letter sent with a CC to you, PZ. Soldier on!
"But just because someone is superstitious does not mean they are not due some leeway for those superstitions. "
The way we give leeway to the mentally disabled you mean ? I suppose there could be an argument made that the religious are cognitivly impaired, but I am not sure they will really appreciate being cut some slack for that reason.
Still go ahead, write to your political representatives and see where it goes.
So let me get this straight: making fun of a cracker = mortal sin. Priests molesting altar boys = not so much.
And these idiots wonder why their belief system turns into more of a joke with every passing moment?
I wrote to your President in support of you.
I checked my spelling and punctuation too!
Let me know if you need more help.
Sincerely,
Sondra
"Cracker" is a racist term used by racist.
Andrew Sullivan has taken up rhetorical arms against your cause now, PZ
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/07/moore-awar…
"While to you it may be just a cracker, you must understand that it's not a cracker to us."
If I say that your average sliced bread is not a bread to me, in fact, it is the body of my dead mother. Could I demand for you to be legally prosecuted for cannibalism when you do eat it?
"However, the theft of the Eucharist constitutes an extreme disruption of the Catholic Mass"
You say it like it is a bad thing. If a bunch of kool-aid drinking cult religionists were congregating and trying to make converts, you'd want them disrupted too.
"However, the theft of the Eucharist constitutes an extreme disruption of the Catholic Mass, and it would only serve to foster anger and hatred between Catholics and atheists."
So what? The world would be many times better off without the Catholic religion. Anything that offends Catholics should and must be done. The same for every other worthless religion in this world. All religious people deserve ridicule. The Muslim terrorists need the moderate muslims, and the Christian extremists need the moderate Christians, and both the Muslims and Christians need each other. Why? Because if everyone else was an atheist (also known as somebody who isn't insane) then their religion would be isolated and more likely to go extinct.
This is why all religious people are part of the problem. For example, anyone who believes in heaven (which only an idiot could believe) is at least partially responsible for the 9/11 attacks, which would have been impossible without the life after death idea. The more people who throw out the heaven belief and all other insane religious beliefs, the sooner this world will be rid of the curse on the human race called god.
As someone who was raised Catholic, has received most of the sacraments and who very nearly enrolled in a seminary to become a priest, i say, as i believe the very large Franciscan who taught some of my classes in High School would say, that William Donohue can go take a flying fuck at a rolling donut
""Cracker" is a racist term used by racist."
Correct.
It is also a word used to describe a small, often savoury, biscuit. It is also a word used to describe a table ornmament found on British tables at Christman. It is also British slang (rather dated now) used to describe a good looking woman.
Context is all.
@ #1097
Agreed!
While to you it may be just a cracker, you must understand that it's not a cracker to us.
To you, it's a magic cracker that you worship, because after somebody says some magic words over it, it turns into thinly sliced human sacrifice that you line up to eat, washing it down with cheap wine that you pretend are bodily fluids, in order to live forever while smelling the stink of your neighbors burning in hell.
On top of all that, you want us to respect your beliefs, and take what you say seriously. Prepare to be disappointed.
Email sent.
Here is the e-mail I sent to PZ Myers, using my real name which I will not reproduce here:
Subject: Christ on a Cracker
I think you underestimate the importance of mythology and ritual in the human condition. Yes, even your human condition. After all, your diploma is just a bit of cloth and ink, isn't it. I don't suppose you'd mind if I just whip one up in my basement and start teaching biology, do you? Oh that's right, yours was consecrated by the Dean in a Late-Middle-Ages ritual. There is a lot of wrong in this situation, but you are also wrong. Please read some Joseph Campbell.
p.s., I'm not a religious whacko, I am in fact a VP of engineering and also a computer science graduate student working on my dissertation in theoretical computer science at night. I do attend church, but not Catholic; I personally don't believe in transubstantiation. The communion ritual is an important part of the Christian church's ability to propagate itself and has been effective for many centuries. As a biologist you should respect that.
Sincerely
(me)
For whatever it's worth, here's my effort:
President Robert H. Bruininks
202 Morrill Hall
100 Church Street S.E.
University of Minnesota
Minneapolis MN 55455
Dear President Bruininks:
As off-putting as I occasionally find him, I fully support P.Z. Myers's freedom to say whatever he likes, about religion or anything else. And I'll always favor him in any fight with that bullying blowhard, Bill Donohue. I hope that you will tell Donohue where he can stuff his perpetually ginned-up outrage.
Sincerely,
Aaron Baker
348 Ridge Ave. Apt. G
Evanston IL 60202
I expect your profound gratitude for this, Myers.
Move along, move along. This thread is indigestibly long, so I've opened a new one for you all.