Yet another antivaccine rally, yet another yawn

If there's one thing that's amusing about the antivaccine movement, it's the disconnect between its members' perception of their own importance and the reality of it, which is that they tend to be a pretty pathetic, risible band. They post their blogs, full of the rage of Dunning-Kruger, thinking that they are putting forth the most sophisticated scientific arguments that real scientists, who have spent their entire professional life studying vaccines and autism, somehow missed and finding evidence of a link that no other scientist can. Of course, pesky things like rigorous study design tend to get in the way of real scientists finding the same things that antivaccine crank scientists, like Mark Geier, Christopher Shaw, Andrew Wakefield, or the like do.

Particularly pathetic in general have been antivaccine "protests," starting with the infamous "Green Our Vaccines" march on Washington, lead by none other than Jenny McCarthy herself. The only reason that march got the attention it did was because Jenny McCarthy and her then-boyfriend Jim Carrey led the march. Other "protests" in which there isn't celebrity leadership (or at least a celebrity face) have been much less "impressive," consisting often of small bands of loons standing outside the CDC or the American Academy of Pediatrics and waving placards. Alternatively, it consists of a bit of antivaccine activism at places like Freedomfest. I'll admit that there are sometimes exceptions to this rule, such as when antivaccine views combine with a natural American tendency not to be want to be told what to do by the government, as happened last summer in the opposition to California SB 277, the bill passed into law that will eliminate nonmedical exemptions beginning with the 2016 school year.

The most recent pathetic display by antivaccinationists of just what fringe cranks they are is scheduled for this Saturday, October 24, and is being promoted by—of course!—the merry band of antivaccinationists at the crank blog Age of Autism in a post filled with typical hyperbole entitled The Week American Parents Demanded Truth from CDC. It's something I've known about for quite some time now, but now that it's almost here I feel an obligation to mention it:

And:

Oh, goody. It's the "CDC Whistleblower" manufactured scandal again, the one that produced a book by Kevin Barry that fizzled. Yes, the fruits of William Thompson's betrayal of his CDC colleagues is still in play, complete with the false claim that the CDC covered up "smoking gun" evidence that the MMR vaccine causes autism in African-American boys. Notice the specificity. As I joked the very first time this whole "CDC whistleblower" nonsense popped up, it's amazing how the very study being touted by antivaccinationists as having been altered to cover up this, even if taken as represented by antivaccine activist Brian Hooker's "reanalysis," proves Andrew Wakefield wrong, as it showed not a whiff of a hint of a whisper of a correlation between MMR and autism in any subgroup other than African-American males.

Of course, as I explained time and time again, this correlation only showed up in African American boys because of small numbers and failure to properly correct for confounders, which is why it disappeared when better analyses were made. It's depressing how someone who really should know better, namely Dr. Thompson, so easily fell for this mistake and has apparently been torturing himself with "guilt" over his failure to speak out about this "cover up" since 2004. There was a time when I thought that Thompson was just misguided, but these days I think he's gone full-on antivaccine. Not surprisingly, the videos above include the usual misinformation about the "CDC whistleblower's" revelations and promises involvement of the Nation of Islam. As I said when the antivaccine movement cozied up to the Nation of Islam, if you want your movement to be taken seriously, the best thing to do is to cozy up with loons like the Nation of Islam, which has become in essence a wholly owned subsidiary of the Church of Scientology. Cranks of a feather, indeed.

So what's going on in Atlanta this weekend? Take a peak at the CDC Truth website. On Friday night, there's a rally at the CDC headquarters from 7 AM to 2 PM. (What they'll be doing all that time, who knows? Probably being annoying but not effective.) Then they're having a dinner, and you—yes, you!—"could WIN a once in a lifetime opportunity to have an intimate dinner with the Stars of #cdcTRUTH Rally!" Amusingly, as of this writing, only $818 of the target of $4,000 had been raised, which, if I were organizing this event, would would worry the crap out of me a mere four days before the event. Be that as it may, you, too, could hang with the luminaries and stars of this event, were you to win the raffle. These are the same people who will be speaking on Saturday at the rally at Grant Park:

  • Barbara Loe Fisher
  • Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
  • Minister Tony
  • Dr. Brian Hooker
  • Dr. Toni Bark
  • Eric Gladen
  • Alison Folmar
  • Marcella Piper-Terry
  • Stacy Francis
  • The Refusers
  • All Star Blues Messenger
  • Lyn Redwood
  • Ron Cummins

What? No Andrew Wakefield? What's wrong with these people? After all, he's Nelson Mandela and Jesus Christ all rolled up into one!

I was amused to see that The Refusers will be there. The amusement comes from just how bad The Refusers are at writing tunes and just how idiotic their antivaccine arguments are. I have no idea who the All Star Blues Messenger is, but I do know The Refusers. I even have one of their CDs (for free, of course). Let's just say that subtlety is not one of their strong points, as they favor song titles like Vaccine Gestapo. Let's just put it this way. Originality is not The Refusers' strong point.

Not surprisingly, the sponsors of this event comprise a cast of the usual suspects, a cornucopia of antivaccine groups such as:

  • Focus for health (Barry Segal’s anti-vaccine outfit)
  • Mississippi Parents for Vaccine Rights
  • educateadvocateca dot com (California autism group)
  • Richie Onori’s Blues Messenger
  • The Mom Street Journal
  • The Weston A. Price Foundation
  • The Refusers
  • Our Kids Our Choice (California anti-vaccine group)
  • The Refusers
  • National Vaccine Information Center
  • Million Mamas Movement (Wendy Silver’s outfit)
  • Mandate the Truth — Voters Call the Shots
  • SafeMinds
  • Moms in Charge
  • VaxTruth
  • Rawesome Juicery
  • The Greater Good Movie
  • The Thinking Moms’ Revolution
  • A Voice for Choice

Barbara Loe Fisher will be there (of course). In her own video, she tries to link this new rally to her own rally 30 years ago over the DPT vaccine:

Note the portentousness:

In the spring of 1986, NVIC co-founder Kathi Williams and I gathered with a small group of parents in Atlanta, Georgia to hold the first public demonstration demanding that the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) be truthful with the American public about vaccine injuries and deaths. We held up signs with photos of children who had died or been brain injured by toxic whole cell DPT vaccine to witness and honor them, the children who had no voice and had no choice.

Now here's the link to today:

Almost 30 years later, on Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 1 p.m., Kathi and I will again gather with parents in Atlanta, this time for the Truth, Transparency & Freedom Rally in Grant Park. The rally is being organized and sponsored by the parent-led Vaccine Injury Awareness League (VIAL), a small California non-profit founded this year after the Pharma-led forced vaccination lobby descended upon that state’s legislature and attacked the human right to informed consent to medical risk taking so they could eliminate the personal belief vaccine exemption and the civil right to a school education.

There actually is a difference between thirty years ago and now. Thirty years ago, Barbara Loe Fisher wasn't truly antivaccine. She actually worked with legislators to pass the National Child Vaccine Injury Act of 1986, which set up the Vaccine Court that she now castigates so regularly. In the 30 years since those early rallies, Fisher has become quite antivaccine, to the point where I usually refer to her as the grand dame of the antivaccine movement, because she's been at it the longest, at least of the current crop of antivaccine activists. In any case, if you don't believe that her group, the Orwellian-named National Vaccine Information Center, isn't antivaccine, just peruse the site for a while, particularly its memorial for "vaccine victims" and its pseudoscientific vaccine ingredient calculator, and you'll see that it's as antivaccine as they come.

Oh, and the DPT was ultimately exonerated. Larger epidemiological studies done later failed to find a link between the DPT and encephalopathy. As is typical, new scientific evidence failed to sway the NVIC.

To go along with the antivaccine embarrassment near the CDC, there'll be a West Coast rally in Oakland on Saturday as well:

Here we go:

Council for Vaccine Safety, and A Voice for Choice, in collaboration with community leaders, announce that on October 24, 2015 at 12 noon, protesters will rally at Frank Ogawa Plaza in Oakland, Calif. in solidarity with the Truth, Transparency & Freedom Rally happening on the same day at the CDC in Atlanta, Georgia.

Protesters are standing against CDC corruption and the disturbing partnership between industry and government, which undermines the health, safety, and freedom of American citizens. In particular, the protesters are calling for the "CDC Whistleblower" Dr. William Thompson, to be subpoenaed to give evidence to congress, following the revelation by Florida Rep Bill Posey (R) that CDC scientists were allegedly instructed to destroy vaccine research which revealed a link between the MMR vaccine and autism, particularly African American boys.

At 12 noon protesters will rally at Frank Ogawa Plaza in Oakland, California in solidarity with the Truth, Transparency & Freedom Rally happening on the same day at the CDC in Atlanta, Georgia.

The speaker lineup in Oakland will be—shall we say?—a lot less scintillating than the Atlanta lineup:

  • Minister Keith Muhammad - Resident minister at the Nation of Islam mosque in Oakland. He is an educator and activist and has served Bay Area communities for decades.
  • Sister Tesha Muhammad - Tesha is a graduate of University of California at Berkeley, a mother of four including two vaccine damaged sons. The experience of dealing with the challenges associated with autism has motivated her to become an activist against unsafe vaccines.
  • Dr. Tina Kimmel, former research scientist for the California Department of Public Health's Immunization Branch.
  • Samsarah Morgan, mother and grandmother, and founder of Nia Healing Center for Birth and Family Life.
  • Brandy Vaughan, former Merck employee, and founder of Council for Vaccine Safety.
  • Christina Hildebrand, founder of A Voice for Choice.

What? "Dr. Bob" Sears wasn't available? Maybe he just couldn't make the trip up to the Bay Area from his redoubt in the San Diego area. It is a long trip. in any case, this is about as "B" of a "B-team" as I can imagine. In fact, this is more like a C- or a D-team when it comes to antivaccine activists.

Personally, I find this "rally" (or these "rallies") to be evidence of just how marginalized the antivaccine movement is. I would like to think they are a sad, last gasp of a dying movement, but, if there's one thing I've learned, it's that the antivaccine movement, no matter how beaten down it is, never dies. Like Michael Myers or Jason in a slasher film, it always returns to endanger our children and kill again.

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Microsoft back then was viewed as an "evil empire" over some of its actions. Even I disliked it. So, the call went out, the rally was held, and...
Eighteen people showed up.
I smirked for days.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

Richie Onori of Blues Messenger claims to have been the drummer in The Sweet. Presumably a version of The Sweet after most of the original members left.

* checks *

Yes - he was in "Steve Priest's Sweet", which featured Steve Priest and, um, no other original members of The Sweet.

By Rich Scopie (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

Oh man, I already feel seriously stupider just from reading the guest list. I could almost be sorry for the antivax ground fodder; to think that this is all their lives should now amount to. What a waste.

Blues Messenger (and its ex-ex Sweet member) should consider making the Sweet's "I Wanna Be Committed" the official anthem of hardcore antivaxers.

I thought I was a thinker, a juvenile drinker
I thought I had some kind of a brain
Till they told me I just a rumour, a cheap and nasty looner
As it turned out I was just insane

I wanna be committed
Insanity permitted
I wanna be committed for my mind
I wanna be committed
Don't let me be remitted
I wanna be committed if you don't mind

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

Create a new paradigm

In 2000-2005, everybody wanted to be part of a paradigm shift.(well, a few scientists did, and I followed suit)

Nowadays, it's tentatively coming back into fashion, but it's just so passé.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

First rule of Bob Sears(like many hucksters) is "Go where I can make the most money?" For Sear Bob, there's more money to be had that same weekend speaking (and wooing new cash-only rich parents) at the TACA conference in Costa Mesa, CA (http://www.donotlink.com/h256)

By Chris Hickie (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

Hey I work right next to there, I should go over and see the who's who

Wow, that list of alleged headliners for the Oakland rally is pathetic. I agree with Orac: they're sending both the A and B teams to Atlanta, and this is the best (if that's the right word) of what's left.

I see two people on that list with the same surname. Okay, it's Muhammad, which I expect would be common among converts to Islam, but I have to ask: are they related? Then there's "Brandy Vaughan, former Merck employee". Employed in what capacity? Receptionist? Custodial staff? If she were in any kind of scientific position, I would expect them to tout that, as they do for Dr. Kimmel. And they actually list the qualifications of one headliner as "mother and grandmother"--not exactly nothing, but srsly, is that the best they can come up with?

OK, Dr. Bob had a conflict, as Chris @7 notes. What about Dr. Jay--is he going to the same conference, too? (Not that I'd blame him, as Costa Mesa is a lot closer to where he lives, and a target-rich environment as well.)

Note also the use of "truth" in the organization name. That's a common conspiracy theory trope (cf. 9/11 Truthers): "We have information that 'they' don't want you to know!"

By Eric Lund (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

I came upon this site as I was looking up hucksters. The only question I would like answered is why do fetuses need to be used to make vaccines? Salk used monkeys and said this is the worlds vaccine,he made no money from his work. He was hoping for enough money to continue more research. He never used fetuses for his research.

I've noticed that these groups have gone wild with twitter accounts- Lord! How many do they have? #cdcwhistleblower, #cdctruth, #hearthis, #hearthiswell,..
#garabagecan... etc

I only watched the first video which makes abundant usage of video of protesters with red shirts- which means they took place in Sacramento- BECAUSE that's the only time recently when they've managed to get numbers that don't look embarrassingly low. Notice how other videos shoot the photos focusing on small sections of a "crowd" not the entire group.

When viewing videos like these I've come to believe that these people have seen too many old movies: ardent citizens uncovering governmental mendacity, speaking passionately at a podium, leading the masses who cry out for justice, telling their own heart rending stories of woe
Sure those films and Gary Null docudramas.

In sum: rather impoverished thought and pathetic action.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

@Bill #10

Foetuses aren't used to make vaccines. Cell lines derived from two legally aborted foetuses in the (IIRC) 1960s are used. There aren't foetal cells in vaccines. The first three paragraphs of this link:

http://www.drwile.com/lnkpages/render.asp?vac_abortion

give the background, history, and how the anti-vaxers misrepresent the truth. (Info can also be found elsewhere)

By Rich Scopie (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

Brandy Vaughn is former Merck sales rep.

"vaccine research which revealed a link between the MMR vaccine and autism, particularly African American boys."

They misspelled "exclusively" and neglected to mention that the so-called link existed exclusively in African American boys vaccinated later than the schedule.

Mr. Bill @ #10

The only question I would like answered is why do fetuses need to be used to make vaccines?
The most detailed explanation I ave seen is here

http://www.immunizebc.ca/ask-us/questions/it-true-aborted-fetus-remains…

Is it true that aborted fetus remains are used to make up vaccines?

Human cell lines are used in the production of some vaccines. These cell lines (human diploid cell lines WI-38 and MRC-5) were derived from embryonic tissue from three elective, medically indicated abortions conducted in the 1960s. The abortions were not conducted for the purposes of vaccine discovery or production; they were legally conducted for medical reasons. These cell lines are self-sustaining and additional abortions are not needed to continue producing vaccines. The cell line is replicating but the original cells have not been used ever since.

Why are human cell lines used in the production of some vaccines?

Human cell lines are used as the medium for the viruses to grow in.It is far more complex to manufacture biological medications, such as vaccines than it is to produce chemical medications, such as aspirin. The bacteria that go into bacterial vaccines can be grown in simple laboratory cultures. However, the growth of virus vaccines is much more complex and requires living cells. Vaccine manufacturers have few options when it comes to the production of virus vaccines because of valid pharmaceutical reasons and human safety concerns (cells derived from animal organs sometimes may carry animal viruses that could harm people).

There is ongoing research looking at other ways to make vaccines, such as the use of molecular tools. Currently the Hepatitis B vaccine is made using molecular tools. However, at this time, scientists have not yet found a way to prepare virus vaccines that does not require growing the virus in living cells.

Are there traces of human cells in vaccines?

The vaccines themselves do not contain human cells or tissue. Although human cultures may be used in the process of making certain vaccines, all cells are removed during the purification process.

What vaccines are made using human cells?

Vaccines do not contain human cells or tissue. Human cultures may be used in the process of making certain vaccines but all cells are removed during the purification process.

Human cell lines are used in the development of some vaccines against the following diseases:

Rubella
Chickenpox
Shingles
Hepatitis A
Rabies
Polio

Are there religious concerns about the use of human cell lines in the production of vaccines?

Human cell lines are used in the production of some vaccines. These cell lines (human diploid cell lines WI-38 and MRC-5) were derived from embryonic tissue from three elective, medically indicated abortions conducted in the 1960s. These cell lines are self-sustaining and additional abortions are not needed to continue producing vaccines.

More at page.

By Roger Kulp (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

Thanks to all for the comments. Cell line WI-38 is not immortal. I have researched the linage of the mmr/chicken pox/flu vaccine. Scientists can find other ways for these vaccines to be produced without using fetuses. Why don't they? Is it because aborted fetuses/babies are too easily available? Who have been buying the fetal parts from planned parenthood?

So there will be about 20 people at the Atlanta rally and just under 10 in Oakland?

From one Bill to another, you need to remove that stick, it's getting in the way of reality. Don't forget to turn it straight before pulling it out.

Orac,

If the anti-vax crowd is having so many problems, maybe we should help them out with some new theories like:

Autism (or insert any other disease) is the result of alien abduction, or

Autism is the result of the bio-warfare being done by chimps in their bid for world dominance.

Either one of these theories would bring new blood to the anti-vax DSs (d is for dumb and s is for the letters tihs).

@ #16

Oddly enough, googling Bill's question of "why do fetuses need to be used to make vaccines" the link you provided comes up first in the results and the link at #12 is the 5th result, with 4th. place going to a post by "David Gorski" at SBM.

I was curious as to why Bill didn't just google to find the answer to his own question however, his comment at #18 answered this for me.

Hopefully this isn't a prelude to another 2000 comment thread filled with nonsense.

@ #18

Bill, you should probably contact the pharmaceutical companies manufacturing the vaccines and run your "questions" past them.

@Bill (#18): You didn't read Rich Scopie's link, did you? It clearly explains that the cell lines being used are from 1962 and 1966. Cell lines can be immortal, if treated properly. See the HeLa line, which is even older, named for the woman the line was obtained from - Henrietta Lacks.

They are not "buying the fetal parts from planned parenthood" (and the fact you even threw that in tells us you are trolling). We get really cranky really fast with people who are JACing off.

Bill: "Scientists can find other ways for these vaccines to be produced without using fetuses. Why don’t they? "

Bill, the vaccines are for viruses that only occur in humans. It is very difficult to grow the viruses in non-human cells, and the times they tried the vaccines had too many side effects (read the first link I gave you).

If you believe you have a better way, then go and find a way. One qualified person who is campaigning against the particular rubella strain is not doing the research for an alternative... but just writing very bad papers full of nonsense math against the vaccine. This is wrong.

If you have a better solution, then get it done! Though it would be wise to actually learn about the science first.

I have a link for live streaming the Oakland event. That should be amusing.

The former Vioxx saleswoman has appeared on Infowars, spreading fear and doubt about injectable Vitamin K, given to newborns to prevent catastrophic brain bleeds.

Rob Dew speaks with former Merck sales rep Brandy Vaughan about the plan for pushing mandatory vaccines, and how it starts with the HPV Shot.

Brandy also discloses new information about the Vitamin K shot and the dangerous new additives that are being being pumped into “baby’s first shot.”

I don't have the stomach to watch it. Be my guest:

http://www.infowars.com/merck-whistle-blower-details-mandatory-vaccine-…

Scientists can find other ways for these vaccines to be produced without using fetuses.

Provide examples please, Bill. You're not suggesting that we instead cultivate the viruses in human volunteers, are we?

The incidence of classic vitamin K deficiency bleeding occurs during the period of 2 to 7 days following birth, with incidence ranging from 0.25-1.7 cases per 100 births. Late onset vitamin K deficiency bleeding can occur up to six months following birth, with 50% of infants experiencing late onset bleeding presenting with intracranial hemorrhaging.

Unles Brandy's got some evidence the risks associated with the 'dangerous' new additives in the vitamin K shot exceed the above, she's talking out of her nether region--and ain't nobody got time for that.

Some real vaccine news from outbreaknews.com:

MERS vaccine expected to go to trials soon
Posted by Staff on October 20, 2015 // Leave Your Comment

GeneOne Life Science Inc., which partnered with Inovio Pharmaceuticals, Inc. to develop Inovio’s MERS vaccine (GLS-5300), announced Monday the filing of an Investigational New Drug Application (IND) for GLS-5300 with the United States Food and Drug Administration. The companies expect to move the MERS vaccine into a phase I clinical trial in healthy volunteers before year end.

One thing I wonder about this vaccine (if actually works with humans) if it will cross over to prevent related SARS virus infection?

I wonder what the anti-vaxxers will say this vaccine causes if it is approved in the future

I must admit to having forgotten the figures and can't be assed to look them up, but I thought the alleged correlation was black boys under 36 months and over 24 months.

Whatever it was, the anti-vaxxers never give the actual cohort, presumably because they realize it's biologically implausible.

By Brian Deer (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

I think that's close to correct. I don't remember myself. I didn't dive into those weeds in this post because I had linked to my more detailed discussions of Hooker's follies with respect to the DeStefano paper. Granularity on that level was not necessary to make my point in this post and would probably have distracted from my little rant. :-)

So if we had a measles outbreak starting from the rally.....If ever there was a time we could build that containment wall that The Donald talks about.....

The claimed correlation between MMR vaccination and autism was among African American males who received the first MMR prior to 36 months of age.

African American males males who receved the MMR after 36 months? No 'correlation'. African American females? No 'correlation'. Non-African Americans, male or female? No 'correlation'. If Hooker were right, Wakefield would again have been proven wrong.

But instead , of course, both Hooker and Wakefield are wrong.

@ Liz:

"I don't have the stomach to watch I. Be my guest".

No thanks. I've seen and heard enough already courtesy of the usual suspects**.

But Liz, are you going to Oaktown to observe? Just a drive and a bridge away.

** -btw- Mikey is starting up his very own alt media empire
( see Natural News) called Talk Network.com- oh, his verbal creativity is just mesmerising, isn't it ? Another PRN clone - which is an even sadder clone of Pacifica.
I suppose the generic name is to trick potential listeners who might think it's something legitimate.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

@ JGC:

What's even more hilarious is that the AoA/ TMR/ NVIC/ AJW-worshipping crowd does not exactly include many African-Americans but is rather tighty whitey central. Well-to-do, suburban, college educated women.
Data shows this, I am not a racist. Oh wait, I'm frigging white.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

I received my annual flu shot today. I didn't start getting them until my gran came to live with us, then I got them every year. By rights I should be either insane, autistic or dead by now, but I'm not. I feel like it's necessary to keep the pressure on the anti-vax crowd, because otherwise they will only do their whack a mole impersonation and pop up again.

Is that George Washington from an American bill on the poster for the rally? Being in Canada, I don't have US Currency at hand to compare.
If so, it would be ironic, since Washington survived smallpox in his teens, and had new recruits to his forces inoculated against smallpox. Google "George Washington Smallpox"

I just did a GIS for "US Dollar Bill".
That is Washington, all right. Hah!

Bill@10: Roger Kulp's summary at #16 is an excellent one, provided at absolutely no cost to yourself. Alternatively, if you'd prefer the TL;DR version: Biology Hard. (Gods, is it ever.)

Bill@18: Careful now. The crazy is *already* starting to leak out. Even the most borderline-incompetent antivaxxer usually manages to keep it stowed until the third or fourth post at least. Here at el Casa Orac we do require a certain amount of professionalism; else it's no sport.

Not going to the Oaktown event, Denice as I have a date with the Portola Valley & Alpine Railroad (7 1/2" gauge layout) and some kids. That will be way more fun and educational....

@BILL #18: Dr. Paul Offit, in Vaccinated, addressed the choice of fetal cells by Stanley Plotkin. Part seemed to be because the rubella virus didn't grow so well in animal cells, part because of the fear of contamination, given the recent SV40 scandal. He also addresses the immortality of such cells. I recommend the book generally, and those sections in particular, if you want the answers.

By Dorit Reiss (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

But I will be in Berkeley in a couple of weeks:

Speakers: Senator Richard Pan, California State Senator (D-Sacramento); Leah Russin, Co-Founder, Vaccinate California; Renee Di Resta, Co-Founder, Vaccinate California

Amid new outbreaks of measles and whooping cough, Governor Brown recently signed SB 277, which will require all California students to be immunized before entering school. The campaign to pass this bill was one of the hardest-fought in recent times. We’re honored to have the bill’s author, a working pediatrician, join us for a de-briefing of the campaign, along with two mom-organizers who played key roles in pushing back against misinformation that flooded the internet and polarized parents. What worked? What’s next?

And Denice, I'll miss that rally too because we have much more fun plans.

Got to have priorities.

By Dorit Reiss (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

Create a new paradigm

To tell with imitations, I won't settle for anything less than a real digm.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

The former Vioxx saleswoman has appeared on Infowars

Crank magnetism strikes again!

HDB@44: I can get you some real paradigms, five for a dollar plus shipping and handling. :p

By Eric Lund (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

Buddy, can you paradigm?

Rich @21: Mmm... let's not with the alien abduction. We already had someone on here recently touting his anti-alien-abduction hat that some people were using on their autistic kids.

I'd really rather autistic children (and adults) got useful therapy rather than very expensive tin foil hats.

By JustaTech (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

#23 no I am not trolling and those cell lines have died off. #26 check out Salk's vaccine and discovery. #33 Mikey is who I was researching as he and Mercola and Kevin Trudeau all should come up under scams. #35 M.S. and others with auto-immune diseases should not receive vaccines in weakened states. #38 Do you believe in choice for birth but not for vaccines that use fetuses? #38 Thank you I will read them.

For those interested, we'll be having a protest march against influenza this week. We feel that it's totally unnecessary to not be afforded the choice of infection. Our rights are paramount! If influenza continues to impede on our civil liberties, then we will stand up and march against this injustice!!

Who is with me??

#23 no I am not trolling and those cell lines have died off.

Strange that they're still readily available, then.

Bill: "23 no I am not trolling and those cell lines have died off."

So you really did not read the link from Nature that showed the efforts and sacrifice made by Dr. Hayflick. Shame on you.

I guess you did not read the Plotkin paper, especially this part:

Over the next decade, accumulating evidence led to changes in the United States. First, the duck embryo and dog kidney vaccine strains caused significant joint reactions [24–27]. Second, reinfection on exposure to wild rubella virus was demonstrated frequently with all strains except the RA 27/3 vaccine [28–30]. Third, the good safety record of the RA 27/3 vaccine in Europe, plus the majority opinion of scientists, led the US Food and Drug Administration to license RA 27/3. Important pressure for this decision came from Dorothy Horstmann at Yale, who was convinced by her comparative studies of rubella vaccines [31], and by Maurice Hilleman at Merck, who sought a better rubella strain for measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine.

Shame on you.

Why would you rather see a fetus exposed to an actual rubella virus? Shame on you for preferring Congenital Rubella Syndrome over preventing rubella.

Bill: “23 no I am not trolling and those cell lines have died off.”

I see by Narad's comment posted while I was typing mine that you are also a liar. Shame on you.

In the words of Jonas Salk" can you patent the sun?" Closed minded people allow no discussion when profits are the utmost concern. Jonas Salk and his polio vaccine is now the worlds. Thank you J.S. Anyone can say "I invented this and it is good" but it does not make it the truth. 35 years ago a great doctor pulled the "okay to proceed with tests" paper from my hand and said "READ doctors will do tests for their benefit not you child's". And I have questioned ever since.

Where's Suzanne Humphries in that list of usual suspects?!

Bill @53:
What?
Your series of statements makes no sense. You have crafted a lovely word salad, but there doesn't seem to be any point.
What does any of this have to do with some protests by anti-vaxxers?

As a side note: These anti-vaxers do know that while the CDC is a 24/7 kind of organization, most people still work Monday to Friday, and therefore won't be at work on Saturday to see the protest?

By JustaTech (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

Bill: "And I have questioned ever since."

And decided to not follow the actual science, which includes reading the provided links. I am still quite disgusted that you are totally discounting the personal sacrifices endured by Hayflick.

As a side note: These anti-vaxers do know that while the CDC is a 24/7 kind of organization, most people still work Monday to Friday, and therefore won’t be at work on Saturday to see the protest?

Their "protest" is on Friday and their "rally" is Saturday.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

@12, Rich Scopie:

That Dr. Wile is an interesting but somewhat contradictory character... He blogs some pretty good stuff countering the anti-vax movement but at the same time, he's a rabid biblical creationist!

to #55 and #56, I am by no means an anti-vaxxer. I happened on this site in reading about NN and how people are duped by people that make money selling on their websites in MHO. I get the flu vaccine,made from eggs. I would never get a vaccine that kills a baby. To FORCE your attitude that you must be vaccinated is no better than the cr@p that NN puts out. I will never let a Hitler control me .

On the subject of fetal cells, just about every line of biomedical research and every drug has used HEK 293 cells _somewhere_ along the line, because they grow so well and transfect so easily. If you object to medicine that has ever had any touch of a fetal cell, you really have to hie off to a very remote island at this point.

By Roadstergal (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

Re: comment #59, I'll refer back to my comment at #22.

Nothing to 'see' here, folks.

Bill, thousands of lives have been saved by vaccines created from fetal cell lines. Could you honestly say you would rather the vaccine never be made and that they all died?

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

Bill: "I would never get a vaccine that kills a baby."

So you would prefer a child was killed or disabled by congenital rubella syndrome. That is horrible.

I would never get a vaccine that kills a baby.

Vaccine manufacture does not involve the killing of any babies, Bill (you do understand there's a difference between cells grown in culture and babies, don't you?)

Bill@48

#35 M.S. and others with auto-immune diseases should not receive vaccines in weakened states.

You've made it pretty clear that you have no idea what you are talking about but here's one no one else pointed out yet. I don't know if by "weakened states" you mean patients or vaccines (i.e. live attenuated viruses) but it's not correct either way.

Attentuated vaccines are usually contraindicated in patients with severe immunodeficiency. Immunodeficiency =/= autoimmune. Autoimmune disorders are not contraindications for any vaccines. Mild to severe illeness is a precaution for many vaccines.

The ACIP recommendations are publicly available from the CDC.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

Gray Falcon@62

Could you honestly say you would rather the vaccine never be made and that they all died?

Considering even the Catholic Church doesn't feel that way I think it's safe to assume Bill is an AV troll (despite his protestations to the contrary).

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

#64 I do know that stem cells and lines can most assuredly come from cells grown in cultures. When fetal tissue is used from killing a baby and mandating vaccines, that eliminates choice, free choice. # 63 Who prefers the killing , you? For the better of the third reich, forcing Jews to accommodate scientific study was okay,not by me, ever. # 65 At my age, the shingles vaccine is not recommended . Ask a doctor that deals in auto immune disease.

Bill: "# 63 Who prefers the killing , you? "

No, it seems you do not understand that rubella, causes stillbirths. Since you object to the vaccine, then you must prefer that many many more fetuses be killed by the actual disease. By the way, measles, varicella and a few other vaccine preventable diseases cause miscarriage, disability and stillbirths if the mother gets them while pregnant.

You have not read any of the links provided, and if you have you did not understand them. I am not sympathetic to your ignorance and total disregard to the damage of the actual diseases to unborn children.

If this site is for the exchange of knowledge I am not a troll as #66 THINKS. You do assume and the debilitating german measles that pregnant women can contract from people should be stopped. When scientists decide that fetal cells from babies taken from the womb are okay to make vaccines,that makes us no better than Hitler.

I will never let a Hitler observations about non sequiturs, subject changing, or general incoherence control me .

FTFY.

See Noevo's dumber brother.

# 68 I see that you agree that "many many more fetuses be killed" means that a fetus needs to be killed to make this vaccine.Are we no better than Hitler.

I see that you agree that “many many more fetuses be killed” means that a fetus needs to be killed to make this vaccine.

Have you recently suffered a head injury?

And Bill Godwins himself! Well done.

By elsworthy (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

Oh, man… I just returned from a driving out to CA to see my sister in Eastern Contra Costa County. I dunno if I would have driven over to Oakland to see all the silly people or not, but it might have been a fun exercise. After about 2900 miles to get out there, and facing about the same to get back, more driving wasn't high on my list of things to don But the comic relief might have made it worth it.

On an almost, but not completely, unrelated topic - I'm catching up with a lot of web reading that I've missed in the past 4 weeks or so, and I note that Jake hasn't posted anything in about 7 weeks. Has there been any news about the kid?

When fetal tissue is used from killing a baby and mandating vaccines, that eliminates choice, free choice.

Bill, you're speaking as if the abortion was performed for the purpose of obtaining fetal lung tissues to abet vaccine development. That isn't the case: the cells that gave rise to WT-38 were taken from a therapeutic abortion performed in 1962 (the only type of abortion legally available at that time). You do know the difference between therapeutic and elective abortions, don't you? The pregnancy was being terminated because carrying to term would place the mother's life at risk, and it was going to be terminated whether or not the lung tissue was used to create the WI-38 cell line.

Which to your more is the more ethically viable outcome--the pregnancy is terminated to save the life of the mother and the tissues incinerated, or that the pregnancy be terminated to save the iife of the mother and the tissues used to save the lives of literally millions of other children yet to be born?

That said, please provide a rational argument demonstrating that following fertilization the developing zygote, embryo or fetus represents an actual human baby to support your position.

When scientists decide that fetal cells from babies taken from the womb are okay to make vaccines,that makes us no better than Hitler.

One more time, Bil: what evidence demonstrates that at the time the abortion which provided the lung tissues that gave rise to cell line WT-38 was performed, the developing fetus represented a human being (i.e., a "baby taken from the womb").

When scientists decide that fetal cells from babies taken from the womb are okay to make vaccines,that makes us no better than Hitler.

No abortions have ever been performed for vaccine manufacture you dunderhead.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

Who prefers the killing , you? For the better of the third reich, forcing Jews to accommodate scientific study was okay,not by me, ever.

Can anybody even parse this?

Are we no better than Hitler.

I can't speak for other commenters here, but I myself have never invaded Poland.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

I can’t speak for other commenters here, but I myself have never invaded Poland.

Depends on your definition of "invade."

@ Chris Hickie #7

EXACTLY! Not only will Dr. Bob find no new well-to-do patients in downtown Oakland, his current Orange County clientele would NOT be cool with him hanging out with a bunch of Black Separatists.

I hope the Oakland rally is poorly attended, because it sickens me the anti-vaxxers are trying to exploit the (largely justified) paranoia of African-Americans, and are deflecting attention from real "black lives matter' issues.

I have to flip Orac's suggestion that anti-vaxxers are lowering themselves by associating themselves with the NOI. It's the other way around. IDK what's left of the NOI these days, what with the apparent sell-out to Scientology and all. But when I lived in Philly in the early 80s and Chicago in the early 90s, I got a different view of the Nation than you get in the media. No doubt they were a cult then, and a wacky one, involved in a variety of dubious stuff. But the NOI sprung from wacky and dubious environments of unbelievable poverty and injustice – alternative realities really. As a low-wage academic, I wasn't COMPLETELY isolated from the inner cities, and I caught enough of the atmosphere to realize that in that context joining the NOI made a kind of sense for its members. In some of the Chicago projects — as sketchy as they were — the NOI guys were the only thing keeping any kind of order protecting the vulnerable residents from being swallowed by violence. In short, some loonies at least have done some good mixed in with their mis-deeds, but not the AoA crowd with their "me, me, me!" haute bourgeois narcissism.

Bill @36
There are specific guidelines for vaccines in patients with autoimmune diseases like MS,and lupus.They are both pretty similar.No live,attenuated vaccines.people under immunosuppressant treatment might be at risk for complications from vaccines,but vaccines are strongly recommended for people with these diseases,

To get back to autism,there are several subtypes of syndromic autism.that have been identified.One of these is definitely autoimmune,and inherited,like any autoimmune disease.There is a growing number of studies,that are forming a strong body of evidence,that mothers who have autoimmune diseases,like MS,lupus,or type 1 diabetes,are more likely to have a child with syndromic autism.I do believe there is a case for creating a special vaccine schedule,and for giving inactivated vaccines to such children.Taking a medical history of the mother is key.

By Roger Kulp (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

Survey research opportunity!

Get 100 copies of a 9/11 Truther pamphlet, or make them yourself.

You and a friend go to various rallies: anti-vaccine and others, for example for all the main political candidates.

Try handing out the 9/11 Truther pamplets in the crowd. One person hand them out, one person keep track of how many people are offered a pamphlet and decline vs. accept, and how much time it takes to get rid of all the pamphlets.

Compile the results. Use statistical methods to determine the significance of differences in the "Truther pamphlet uptake rate" between crowds at the different rallies.

Hypothesis: anti-vaxers have a significantly higher "Truther pamphlet uptake rate" than attendees at candidates' rallies.

It would also be interesting to have the figures for rallies for each of the candidates;-) And I'm sure the results would be newsworthy.

---

Re. the Oakland rally: in case anyone here is even remotely considering attending (hey, entertainment!), don't. Best advice is stay far away. Nation Of Islam are not friendly people.

By Gray Squirrel (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

Aw heck, edits: 100 copies of the pamphlet for each rally. If you only hand out 40 at one rally, you only need 60 more for the next rally, etc.

By Gray Squirrel (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

On a related topic to the thread at hand (only tangentially related to Bill though), the defeat of the petition to remove SB 277 (and the associated recall petition for Richard Pan) should have been enough evidence for these people that their ideas are not supported by the overwhelming majority of people and that they really are a minuscule self-centred minority.

Holding a rally and a march that will attract all of 50 people is not going to show the world they are a force to be reckoned with.

They are much more influential on social media than they are in real life, but obviously all suffer violently from Dunning-Kruger syndrome (even to evaluating their own performance).

Shall we run a book on what we will read about this on Monday? It was an enormous success with hundreds attending (even if the pictures all show no more than a couple of dozen over and over again)? It was sabotaged by forces working for Big Pharma, who not only managed to keep the media away, but also kept most of the supporters away? Any others?

should have been enough evidence for these people

We're not dealing with the evidence-based community here.

We’re not dealing with the evidence-based community here.

Don't need no stinkin' Big Pharma science type evidence when you have "mommy sense", or so I've been told.

If anyone here attends the rally and the ten million health freedom fighter attendees burst into a stirring rendition of "We shall overcome", please get a video and post it for the rest of us.

Bill, the Chinese cell line was derived from tissues taken following a pregnancy terminated at three months gestation-- from a human fetus, not a human baby.

Sorry about the above link. In MHO when I see "dr."Mercola, I always consider the source as I think he is huckster.

If anyone here attends the rally

I have a blood donation and a tatting class scheduled. Darn it.

As is par for the Cog4Life course (they're still fond of that vaccines-are-sterilization-agents routine), their zeal – here to somehow tie things into Planned Parenthood – leads to some, ah, "hyperbole":

"They further noted how they induced labor using a 'water bag' abortion [a.k.a. mechanical dilation] to shorten the delivery time and prevent the death of the fetus to ensure live intact organs which were immediately sent to the labs for cell preparation."

They did? Let's go to the tape:

"Walvax-2 was derived from a fetal lung tissue, similar to WI-38 and MRC-5, and was obtained from a 3-month old female fetus aborted because of the presence of a uterine scar from a previous caesarean birth by a 27-year old healthy woman....

"The fetal material was provided by the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology of Yunnan Hospital, with legal and ethical agreements from the donator. Before the study, we made strict and comprehensive inclusion criteria in order to guarantee a high quality cell strain: 1) gestational age 2 to 4 months; 2) induction of labor with the water bag method; 3) the parents career should not involve contact with chemicals and radiation; 4) both parents are in good health without neoplastic and genetic diseases, and with no history of human tissue or organ transplantation in the families traced for 3 generations; and 5) no infectious diseases. The tissues from the freshly aborted fetuses were immediately sent to the laboratory for the preparation of the cells."

Notice that certain parts of Cog4Life's narrative are conspicuously absent?

Oh, wait.

Bill@67

# 65 At my age, the shingles vaccine is not recommended . Ask a doctor that deals in auto immune disease.

Not sure what you're getting at here. The zoster vaccine is generally recommended for people 60+ because that is when risk of complications is most severe, not sure what that has to do with autoimmune disorders.

Like with most attenuated vaccines it is contraindicated in patients with severe immunodeficiency. The ACIP recommends* caution when considering attenuated vaccines (which includes zoster) to patients on low dose immunosuppresion therapy for autoimmune disorders.

Zoster is not contraindicated for patients with autoimmune disorders (though immunosuppresants can be a contraindication**).

You're going to have to be more rigorous in defending yourself. Start by defining "weakened state". Proceed by presenting evidence yourself not asking me to do it for you. Considering you are suggesting a contraindication beyond thise listed by the CDC it better be rather compelling. Don't want to be called a troll? Don't act like one.

*See: Other Immunosuppressive Drugs
**More specifically see Immunocomprimised Persons: h[]p://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5705a1.htm

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

^ BTW, Bill, perhaps you could, y'know, read the actual paper and report back on the authors' remarks about why this is significant for China.

A couple notes in light of Roger Kulp's post #83. Live attenuated vaccines are recommended against but generally not contraindicated. Roger Kulp makes the great point that (killed) vaccines are strongly recommended because these patients are at greater risk for complications from the diseases.

Lastly, singling out the shingles vaccine was a poor choice on your part. Per Roger Kulp's link on MS it is the exception of being the only attenuated vaccince not generally recommended against.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

Notice that certain parts of Cog4Life’s narrative are conspicuously absent?

Indeed they are. Because Cog4Life is yet another fundamentalist anti-abortion outfit for whom the ends justify the means. Making shït up is seen as an appropriate activity if it can further the goal of allowing society to control women's bodies.

As has been pointed out time and again to Bill, the cell lines used to grow vaccines come from fetal tissues where the abortions were performed for medical reasons. Researchers wanting access to such tissue need to jump through hoops to obtain agreement from the donor and to maintain ethical protocols surrounding the handling and disposal of tissue. There was nothing nefarious in their origin. They were not aborted in order to make the vaccine. The availability of the tissue was a side-effect of the abortion. The fetuses were going to be aborted regardless.

But I see that Bill is following the same worn path.

a blood donation and a tatting class

That's some good multitasking.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

Tatting uses pretty small hand movements. If they were ever actually able to get donation amounts of blood out of me, it would be as simple a multi-task as knitting, plus it easily fits in a pants pocket...

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 20 Oct 2015 #permalink

If they were ever actually able to get donation amounts of blood out of me, it would be as simple a multi-task as knitting, plus it easily fits in a pants pocket…

Does one have their hands that free while donating blood? I went through a phase where I was selling my plasma (well, being "compensated for my time" technically) and I don't recall being able to do much of anything at the time. There was a squeezy thing I was supposed to squeeze when the cuff felt tight, and I didn't like the cuff being tight, so I would squeeze-squeeze-squeeze a lot to try to get it over with quicker. I would end up feeling faint and not even being able to read, really; I'd end up watching the TVs they had there. I found out about Robin Williams' suicide there, I'm pretty sure. It kind of sucks, but hey, it was money.

It occurs to me that this probably sounds pretty skeezy and Midnight Cowboy-esque.

^ I seem to remember getting the squeezy thing while donating blood, too; but maybe that's not universal.

Bill: From perfectly innocent JAQ-off @10 to calling Hitler @59. That didn't take you long at all. 3/10 We are disappoint.

Narad@93: I am shocked - Shocked! - that Bill@88's uncanny bloodhound nose for hucksters managed to miss that stinker. Perhaps it was too preoccupied inhaling its other favorite part of dog anatomy?

Elsewhere, Anne Dachel appears to have jumped not one, but two sharks.

Gee, as if we all couldn't guess that Bill *was* JAQing off to push his little agenda. Are we sure he's not related to our dearly not lamented troll SN?

I almost wish I was close enough to either rally to go. I'd take pictures to show the REAL size of the protest, and point and laugh.

ChrisP@105: I find that extremely unlikely. No self-respecting shark would want to be seen anywhere near Anne Dachel.

As Johnny notes above, nothing new from Jake. Perhaps he's engaged in another research project that supports his earlier efforts or the Geiers or Hooker.

I observe that Dachel now has a new sponsor for her ...er .. media reports -
it's Aperture International which provides hypoallergenic supplements which support cognitive function or suchlike
( see the linked ad which is rife with diagrammed woo concerning neurotransmitters et al).
But no shark cartilage.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 21 Oct 2015 #permalink

#79 jp

I seem to remember getting the squeezy thing while donating blood, too; but maybe thatâs not universal.

In Canada, they dropped it some years ago due to some sanitation concerns. I have not donated in two or three years but I suspect it is still the same.

By jrkrideau (not verified) on 21 Oct 2015 #permalink

Had another mito crash yesterday,just getting back to this thread.

Bill@ 88
CoG for Life is a new blog to me,but any blogger who takes the Planned Parenthood videos at face value,automatically gets tossed into the nutter basket along with Mike Adams.this post on the polio vaccine is worthy of whale.to,AoA or our boy Jake.

Most of us figured out long ago,why the antis have reached out to the likes of Nation of Islam,or the anti-abortion movement.Their numbers had been dwindling for years.Wakefield had long been discredited.Fewer and fewer parents had been falling for their BS.They were in desperate need of "new blood" to keep their zombie cause alive.

By Roger Kulp (not verified) on 21 Oct 2015 #permalink

@ JP:

re:
" definition of 'invade'"
" Midnight Cowboy-esque"

You are hilarious.

question to self:
why is it that Orac's minions are so often hilarious - and not in an intentional way- whilst we cannot say the same for the anti-vax contingent/ alt med, as hard as they try to be funny, it usually just doesn't work or it's supremely juvenile/ slapstick?
See Kim, Mikey, Gary, various TMs

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 21 Oct 2015 #permalink

That should be OF COURSE
not in and UNintentional way

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 21 Oct 2015 #permalink

not in AN UNintentional way

I need my other glasses

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 21 Oct 2015 #permalink

JGC @76

Which to your more is the more ethically viable outcome–the pregnancy is terminated to save the life of the mother and the tissues incinerated, or that the pregnancy be terminated to save the iife of the mother and the tissues used to save the lives of literally millions of other children yet to be born?

Hardcore forced birthers like Bill would answer "neither". It is better that the mother and fetus both die than the mother commit the "sin" of having an abortion.

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 21 Oct 2015 #permalink

@ Denice Walter #111

Having been in and out of various "gifted and talented" programs over the years, I've found that the most consistent and obvious difference between people with high IQs and the general population isn't anything that you would typically associate with intelligence - it's that they're funnier (that, and a tendency to continually and seemingly randomly jump from topic to topic.)

Sarah (#116) "...a tendency to continually and seemingly randomly jump from topic to topic" As my friends constantly say to each other..."let's talk about ...SQUIRREL!!!" I'm notorious for my non sequiturs, and some of my friends are the same. And yes, we laugh a lot.

Sarah @116: I was tested as IQ=144 back in the day... My problem is those with lower IQs don't think I'm very funny!!!

I had a prof who detailed the evolution of children's games, excuses and stories which should also- probably- include jokes-
in general, there are parallels between these offshoots and the level of development,
so you'd expect a 6 year old to be fond of slapstick ( and make excuses that were primarily physical ) whilst an adolescent would be more likely to be more verbal and abstract relying upon sarcasm and irony which illustrate formal operations and executive functioning.

I notice that the usual suspects' attempts at parody fall flat more frequently than not. Mike is heavy handed in his so-called funny material. Everyone is a N-zi it seems.

RobRN-
They don't get it because you're at a different level.
Lots of jokes @ RI are more abstract, sarcastic or use insider snark - e.g. doctors, scientists. I'd guess that the average level of intelligence here is not the same as that of the general public.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 21 Oct 2015 #permalink

a blood donation and a tatting class

That’s some good multitasking.

Not at the same time -- it's hard to swing a shuttle with a needle sticking in your arm.

I was tested as IQ=144 back in the day…

Yeah, I was somewhere a bit north of that the last time it was checked; I gather that typical IQ tests sort of crap out at that end of the bell curve, though. (The "ceiling effect" I think it's called.) I don't know how much stock I really put in the whole enterprise, however.

^ I'd really rather not put much stock in it, or think about it very much, anyway, if in large part because the implications are sort of terrifying. (As in, the notion that I, of all people, am smarter than x% of the population... gah. I'm not that freaking smart. It's a frightening thought.)

Bill: "You do assume and the debilitating german measles that pregnant women can contract from people should be stopped."

Yes, I do. And so does the Catholic Church. They are well aware of the devastation to children, and their parents, during the rubella epidemics around the world in the 1960s.

The fact you care about the what happened to two fetuses over fifty years ago, and have absolutely no regard to children and future child in this century shows your true colors. You are both intellectually vacant, and cruel.

ChrisP at #86:

and the associated recall petition for Richard Pan

The recall campaign will run until December 31, 2014. The recall has to gather 35, 926 signatures of voters registered in District 06, which comprises parts of Sacramento and Yolo counties. The referendum campaign got 12,889 (unverified) signatures in all of Sacramento County and 7,143 (unverified) signatures on all of Yolo county. It's not looking good for the recall campaign.

Plus Senator Pan has been getting some great press lately.

In other #SB277 related news, Lauren Stephens filed another initiative, a "parents' rights" amendment to the California Constitution, which seems to have disappeared. It's possible that the Attorney General killed it.

(Professor Reiss discusses the problems with "parental rights" bills here.

re what Brian Deer linked:
Ann Dachel is dancing around that statement at AoA
Heh.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 21 Oct 2015 #permalink

@ JP:

But you are that 'freaking smart'

Rest assured though that intelligence is not the only factor in our multi-factorial, interpersonal world -
all sorts of other things like person/ social skills, presentation, diplomacy, impulsivity/ reflectivity etc.- can be of relevance in everyday life.

I've always felt that the intelligence part was something that I could turn on and off as the situation demanded- it's sometimes smarter to NOT use it amongst certain individuals.
Occasionally someone starts "educating" me about subjects I have studied that they probably read about for 15 minutes / saw on you tube so Iet them have it . Usually, they are stopped in their tracks.
Also I feel as though I can frequently 'see through' individuals into their motives, making every smile and word of concern be revealed as incredibly false. I think that this skill has aided me as much as general intelligence has.

But I get that impression that you're NOT clueless in that department either.
Be glad of your gifts, you'll find them useful as you get older.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 21 Oct 2015 #permalink

My relatively high IQ test score turned out to be quite a curse. My older brother had gone through the same school system ahead of me with a straight A record - He's a PhD biochemist now. I had a few of the same teachers and I was constantly bombarded with "Your brother did , what's up?" In a defense, I developed a more than lackadaisical attitude towards studying and soon I was branded as a "Gifted under-achiever" by my school's academic counselors! Then they recommended a remedial summer school program focused on reforming high school students like me at a local university's school of education and I attended. There were only about 10 students in the program - all of them just like me - scary! But the emphasis on organization, speed-reading for content, study tricks & skills plus a lot of counseling with motivational content totally changed my life! I went from a D+ student to the honor roll within the next school year - Everyone was amazed, including me. With my mixed high school transcript but sky high SATs, I was initially accepted to university on probation. Two B.S. and two M.S. degrees later, I've totally vindicated myself!

Also I feel as though I can frequently ‘see through’ individuals into their motives, making every smile and word of concern be revealed as incredibly false. I think that this skill has aided me as much as general intelligence has.

I'm so jealous - I'd happily trade my excess IQ points for the ability to figure out what, if anything, is going on in the average person's head. I seriously used to think people were bluffing when they seemed to be able to tell what I was thinking just by looking at my face. It was rather disconcerting to find out at the age of 32 that "normal" people (aka neurotypicals) not only have this seemingly impossible ability but consider the lack of it to be a significant cognitive defect (i.e., autism.) On the positive side, it was quite a relief to have a rational explanation for the seemingly deceitful, emotionally manipulative, irrational behavior that characterizes humanity.

The recall campaign will run until December 31, 2014. The recall has to gather 35, 926 signatures of voters registered in District 06, which comprises parts of Sacramento and Yolo counties. The referendum campaign got 12,889 (unverified) signatures in all of Sacramento County and 7,143 (unverified) signatures on all of Yolo county. It’s not looking good for the recall campaign.

And as the referendum campaign is likely to garner more signatures due to people responding to the anti-Government telling us what to do message, the Pan recall petition is likely to garner even fewer signatures.

In addition, the recall campaign seems to have fallen off the rails. The facebook page is down and the twitter feed has been infested by tumbleweeds.

RobRN@118:

Sarah @116: I was tested as IQ=144 back in the day… My problem is those with lower IQs don’t think I’m very funny!!!

Ours is an elegant humor, for a more civilized age.

--

Okay, I lied. It's not really about smarts (I wish!), but the willingness—even desire—to take oneself not entirely seriously. You can hardly parlay others' stupidity and screwups into the most excellent humor if you aren't already a past master at mocking your own.

We know we're fallible, we've learned to accept it, and to learn from it, and so turn our immediate (and still completely embarrassing) cockups to our eventual advantage. (See also: Science!!!) Whereas dummies never learn to stop sticking the same old hand in the same old fire, no matter how many times the third-degree burns.

...

Incidentally, I suspect we could have tons of fun doing comparative egos too. Can't speak for the rest of you 'orrible lot, but for me it's the quality of works that I leave behind—and what that work hopefully[!] does for others—that my own bulging sense of self-worth rolls on. (It'd have to be…Dog knows the personality ain't cutting it.)

Whereas I'd bet hard money that altie egos are fueled primarily on current social standing and praise of their peers—a most excellent motivation to be both crawling sycophants and nasty little backbiters at the same time. (As I've no doubt commented before, paranoid narcissism does seem to be the one defining trait that ultimately unites them all.)

@ Sarah A:

Can you understand why I am so often incensed while describing the antics of diverse woo-meisters?

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 21 Oct 2015 #permalink

Also I feel as though I can frequently ‘see through’ individuals into their motives, making every smile and word of concern be revealed as incredibly false. I think that this skill has aided me as much as general intelligence has.

But I get that impression that you’re NOT clueless in that department either.

Maybe; I have heard that other people often find me disarming, even "intimidating," which frankly cracks me up.

I still have a tendency - maybe it's some kind of mild other-mind-blindness or something - to assume the best of everybody unless I am repeatedly proven wrong. Which is to say that I just don't really expect actual malice from other people, since it's pretty much foreign to me. As I've gotten older, though, I've picked up on the fact that some people actually are just @ssholes and have gotten better at identifying them.

Whereas I’d bet hard money that altie egos are fueled primarily on current social standing and praise of their peers—a most excellent motivation to be both crawling sycophants and nasty little backbiters at the same time.

Ah, so pretty much the exact opposite of the"true man of no rank."

Liz Ditz@124: Any time "Parental Rights" nuts bang on about how their kids are theirs to do with as they damn well like and that the state should get lost, just remark how NAMBLA also thanks them for their support. The ensuing shït fïts are a sight to behold.

Sarah A@128:

I’d happily trade my excess IQ points for the ability to figure out what, if anything, is going on in the average person’s head.

Something tells me you're gonna get burned on that deal…

@ has:

Well, most of them haven't ever really achieved so their self-worth comes from their followers' adulation based upon their tarted up CVs and tales of conquest ( see Health Ranger.com/ bio). I think the need for mail ordered, decorative doctorates is derived from LACK of acceptance by legit universities. As is their dismissal of standard education and science- which are so RONG because they themselves were excluded early. Perhaps these guys grew up with an inflated sense of their abilities which was demolished in the real world by (probably) actual universities.

Mike the Scientist's degree** is in writing. Null's is in business.

** legit degree.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 21 Oct 2015 #permalink

@ JP:

I think that your "hair cut" may frighten them off.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 21 Oct 2015 #permalink

Elsewhere ...
Manitoba has now committed to free vaccination of boys for HPV. CBC has a brief article which has attracted a few anti-vaxxers who are begging for some shillinsolence.

Re; The Tony Muhammed clip BD linked at #115.

The only factual claim made in the clip is Muhammed saying RFKJ informed him, "The senior, lead scientist for the Center of Disease Control has admitted that the MMR vaccine, and many of the vaccine shots, have been genetically modified to attack Black and Latino boys."

RFKJ told The Blaze:

Muhammad’s comments were “not an accurate characterization” of that meeting, adding, “Reverend Tony was conflating the issue.” When asked if there was ever a discussion with Rev. Muhammad about the CDC altering vaccines to injure blacks and Latinos, Kennedy emphatically stated, “No, no, no.” We asked if there was any proof the CDC ever genetically modified vaccines, “There is no proof of that,” Kennedy stated, adding, “Absolutely not.”

So, who's dumber: Muhammed, Kennedy, or The Blaze:
• Rev. Tony's not dumb at all. He knows what he's doing, and that's just his job as a professional provocateur: making sh!t up, stirring the pot, getting his name in the news...
• The Blaze is pretty freakin' stupid for asking RFKJ if he talked to Muhammed about the CDC altering vaccines, or if the CDC did genetic modification. Even Rev. Tony knows the CDC doesn't design or manufacture the vaccines, and is only saying the CDC discovered the 'racist plot' and didn't tell anyone. Of course, The Blaze wants to blame everything on Big Guvment, but its core audience probably thinks attacking Black and Latino boys is one of the few commendable things government does: Mike Brown, Tamir Rice ad infinitum. So, at best, The Blaze is a bit confused here...
• So yes, RFKJ wins the 'biggest dumb-ass' prize by a mile. Not only did he fail to recognize he needed to straighten out The Blaze on who to blame for vaccines, and not only did he fail to realize he was only going to get his 'message' even more mangled by talking to The Blaze at all, he was appallingly stupid for meeting with Tony Muhammed in the first place, allowing Rev. Tony the opportunity to use the Kennedy name and hijack Bobby Jr's anti-mercury crusade to whip up outrage in the inner city.

I think that your “hair cut” may frighten them off.

Oh, come on. (That's me at my college graduation; apparently I was about 12.)

Thanks for reminding me, though: I badly need a haircut. I've got over a quarter inch of hair on my head. Maybe I'll take a picture afterward - I suppose I did look singularly un-intimidating in college, but people used to tell me that all the same.

Liz Ditz: "Chris, for those of us who don’t have the patience for podcasts, it’s coverage of Professor Reiss’s review at Skeptical Raptor:"

That is referenced on the podcast and linked to on the website. As much as I love Prof. Reiss, their take on the movie was much more amusing (and her review is on another tab of my browser). She really did not go into the pathetic graphics used in that movie. Apparently the "protagonist's story" is told in cartoon form.

There is a difference between scholarly and hilarious, and each have their place. By the way, Dr. Crislip blogs in a few places. While it is quicker to read them on Medscape, SBM and SfSBM... it is much more interesting to listen to him speak. It is in the intonation.

@ sadmar

“The senior, lead scientist for the Center of Disease Control has admitted that the MMR vaccine, and many of the vaccine shots, have been genetically modified to attack Black and Latino boys.”

Another point in the dumb/knowingly making shit up category:

Such a design would need to be possible in the first place.

There may be genetic markers pinpointing people as of "African" or "Latinos" origin, with some accuracy; although, frankly, I doubt there is a single marker "tagging" simultaneously a Nigerian, a Kenyan, and a South African - Africa is a big place. For Latinos, it's even worse; Brasil is famous for being a big melting pot.*

Now, as to develop a virus targeting these genetic markers... I'm afraid we don't have the technology. We are just able to program viruses for genetic therapy (i.e. injecting a working piece of DNA and hoping it will get inserted correctly). Programming a virus for NOT infecting someone (i.e. releasing its payload, whatever it is) who is missing a genetic marker? Whoa, a double negative, forget it. It's like creating a cruise missile which will perforate a bunker wall and NOT detonate if the army's leader is not sitting on his chair in the war room. Impractical and next to impossible.
Even if we have, these biological weapons would have been already released as viruses, not as vaccines.
But what I am doing? Trying to make sense of a dumb conspiracy theory.

*tl;dr: Tony Muhammed sounds like a big racist guy. In his view, the world is divided into pure whitey guys and pure negro guys.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 21 Oct 2015 #permalink

@ JP:

Oh you're different from what I imagined. You actually look like a young teacher or professor. I was picturing a smaller, darker boxing/ workout maven covered in tattoos.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 22 Oct 2015 #permalink

@JP
My impression is that you are definitely smarter than x% of the population, where X is pretty high. You may suffer from the same things I do, to wit: the vast majority of my social circle is ALSO smarter than x%, so among them I feel solidly average. Also, I am constantly overestimating what "everybody knows" /underestimating that I know quite a bit of stuff (which admittedly is a factor of education than raw smarts, but there's some overlap in that my smarts + opportunities led me to becoming over-educated. I'm well aware how lucky I am).

To return to the tatting/blood donation... this is where I admit I don't donate blood because my dozen attempts to do so over several years resulted in 1 "success" (blood drive at work, my coworkers all thought Iwas about to die due to matching the color of the walls and the blood people made me lie down for half an hour and sit that long again before going to my desk), 1 "failure" where they got about 1/4 the donation amount before my body said "nope" and the rest involved sitting for ten increasingly uncomfortable minutes while the tech tried and failed to get any sort of flow at all each time. So my blood donation experience is pretty much all waiting room time, which is eminently suited to tatting.

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 22 Oct 2015 #permalink

Oh you’re different from what I imagined. You actually look like a young teacher or professor. I was picturing a smaller, darker boxing/ workout maven covered in tattoos.

More like this, maybe? Haha. (That is from just now.) It's funny you should mention boxing, actually; I've been thinking about joining the YMCA specifically because the one here has a heavy bag. I used to love going to the gym and punching the sh!t out of one of those things when I was in college. Then swimming.

P.S., here is a complimentary non-haiku for the day:

There's an odd apocalypse in the autumn sun.
How can so beautiful a world last?
Answer: it can't.

^Grr on the HTML fail, but the link works.

You're both quite lovely but I do have better hair.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 22 Oct 2015 #permalink

On a break, I took a stroll through the crowd at the front gate. I'm guessing there's probably around 80 people or so there. So far it is peaceful and no local press has arrived. I think this is a testament to the fringe group that they are.

By Jeff Fountain (not verified) on 23 Oct 2015 #permalink

#53 Salk did try to patent the vaccine. His lawyers persued it, but found it was not possible Salk also did unethical experiments on medical patients. We no longer use Salk's vaccine because of the injuries it caused

By Camie Gadbois (not verified) on 23 Oct 2015 #permalink

Jeff. The press is there.

By Camie Gadbois (not verified) on 23 Oct 2015 #permalink

@Camie - you mean the "tens of people" around the CDC?

What a mass showing......wow.

Last year Ed Parker wrote about the return to IPV over at SBM.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 23 Oct 2015 #permalink

Why did the CDC discontinue the DPT vaccine and replace it with the newer version?

Tracy, it is a long story. I suggest you read Autism's False Prophets and Deadly Choices by Paul Offit (be sure to read about the testimony of Gordon Stewart in the second book. Also read this:
http://briandeer.com/dtp-dpt-vaccine-1.htm

Don't expect us to hand feed you the entire history in blog comments.

Now now Chris, have you forgotten you get paid by the word? How do you think Denice affords her fabulous wardrobe and hair care?

By Science Mom (not verified) on 23 Oct 2015 #permalink

@ Science Mom:

Oh come on! They don't pay me all that much.

It's only 1.2 euro a word these days and you can't count prepositions, articles and exclamations. That means that a few dozen longish paragraphs might buy you a somewhat decent bag- a trench means a few days worth.

It's not like I'm buying myself a boat!

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 23 Oct 2015 #permalink

They made the news! I saw this link posted rather triumphantly on one of their twatter hashtags. It's only 1:30 or so and the reporter's attitude is great. To give you an idea, here's my favorite quote:

They think a preservative meant to kill bacterial is actually causing autism, and the CDC is OK with that for whatever reason.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 23 Oct 2015 #permalink

Sorry, Science Mom, but my patience is a bit low. My weekend reading includes state/county voter's pamphlets, a special needs trust from one lawyer, will, trust, directions, etc drafts from another lawyer, fill out a form to renew disabled son's eligibility for services and power of attorney form for bank. I really wish I could pay someone to deal with the paper I have to do so that my son does not end up homeless if something happens to us, his parents.

I really hate that the anti-vax folks have detracted the autism focus away from badly needed services. I see no reason to be kind to those who don't know the difference between Salk and Sabin, and do not know how to look up reasons for the DTaP.

Please ignore the missing words. I'm just annoyed with everything right now.

Ah, here we go: Protesters want CDC investigated, Doctor debunks vaccine myths

Money quotes:

Dr. Omer said opposition to vaccines is nothing new, and this latest theory protesters are voicing about suppressed documents and withheld information is just another in a series that will always be around.

He also said people in the medical field are constantly watching and studying the results of vaccines on a large scale to see if problems like what the protesters are alleging really do exist.

"There are systems in place that look at the evidence. And products have been withdrawn in the past, so it's not that we're not looking for it."

So, according to the doctor, the investigation that protesters were calling for today is already happening without anyone having to ask for it.

Thank you, Dr. Omer.

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 23 Oct 2015 #permalink

(resubmitted because apparently I cannot spell my own name)
Ah, here we go: Protesters want CDC investigated, Doctor debunks vaccine myths

Money quotes:

Dr. Omer said opposition to vaccines is nothing new, and this latest theory protesters are voicing about suppressed documents and withheld information is just another in a series that will always be around.

He also said people in the medical field are constantly watching and studying the results of vaccines on a large scale to see if problems like what the protesters are alleging really do exist.

"There are systems in place that look at the evidence. And products have been withdrawn in the past, so it's not that we're not looking for it."

So, according to the doctor, the investigation that protesters were calling for today is already happening without anyone having to ask for it.

Thank you, Dr. Omer.

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 23 Oct 2015 #permalink

Chris,

you okay? Can I do something to help?

Alain

Chris,

you okay? Can I do something to help?

Alain

I would also like to do anything to help that I can, if there's anything I can do! I suspect, sadly, that there is not, but know that the offer is there if you think of anything and that I think of you.

Sorry, Science Mom, but my patience is a bit low.

I know and that's why I tried some levity. It's going to be fine. And I really mean that.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 23 Oct 2015 #permalink

Our dear friend Chris is drowning in the quicksand of finicky paperwork that all folk who deal with disability know. One of my friends has child (age now in the double digits) with complex disability issues. The documentation is now up to about 6 linear feet... some of which has to be reviewed and renewed annually. This friend has a terminal degree in a text-heavy field, and finds the burden onerous to manage.

Makes you wonder how t parents without such educational advantages manage. I'll give you a clue: they don't, and their children are under-served.

In other news, I watched about as much of the streaming video of the demonstration this morning as I could stomach.

1. There were clearly 10s of demonstrators -- not even breaking the 200 barrier.
2. The things that were being said or chanted like "stop killing our babies" and "stop all vaccines now" and so forth -- it's an end to the "but we are just for safer vaccines". Nope. It's all anti-vaccine, all the time.

Oops. They aren't anti-vaccine. They are either card-carrying members, or affinity groups, of the Society for the Promotion of Vaccine-Preventable Disease.

Ah, here we go: Protesters want CDC investigated, Doctor debunks vaccine myths

The fatal flaws, of course, were (1) the hilarious white-ass notion that an "alliance" with NOI would produce results (aside from the Dachelbot's "open letter" to Tony Muhammad) and (2) the supposition that anyone would know what the hell the baroque Thompson routine is "about" in the first place.

Liz, Don't want to distract or disrespect from the issue because I know all too well about paperwork but I have to say, there's too many micromanaging hats and not enough frontline worker to inform the micromanager that they're the problem but in any case, I can relate and offer a good chuckle if I'm limited to that (that is until I move wherever I'm needed to browbeath micromanagerial politidogs to loosen up and make parent's job easier and to that end, I have a seriously good track record with the politidogs here except ex-pm Harper).

Alain

Alain and JP, thank you for your concern. It is the paper work that I must deal with due to having a child with special needs. It is also a cry of frustration of being pulled into a world that thirty years I was only vaguely aware of, and that the abnormal distraction to "the Vaccines are evil" discussion has diverted too many resources.

(And if you can parse that paragraph, I applaud you... needless to say... this is why I say I used to be intelligent until I had children. Once upon a time my actual job was to solve multi-variable nonlinear differential equations, now it is trying to figure out how to make sure my autistic child does not end up homeless... though before it was "keeping him alive", calling 911 when he had seizures" (including the one from an actual disease! who knew that a virus could cause a seizure!), "making sure his croup did not kill him", "getting him speech therapy", "taking him to the neurologist", "going to IEP meetings", "doing followups to heart murmur and echocardiogram", "making sure the Holter monitor did not fall off", "scheduling open heart surgery at the Mayo Clinic", "making sure the Mayo Clinic had his medical files, including the cardiac MRI", "working with the state's Dept. of Vocational Rehabilitation for employment"... etc... You know, all of that typical mom stuff.)

Once upon a time my actual job was to solve multi-variable nonlinear differential equations, now it is trying to figure out how to make sure my autistc child does not end up homeless… though before it was “keeping him alive”, calling 911 when he had seizures” (...)

The second "option" sounds much more difficult and demanding. I can only applaud you.

Chris,

I read it all twice. I can attest for the second paragraph (the first was decided for me because of many reason why I consider to appeal a decision which prevent me from getting financing to go to any school in Canada since last year).

I, and I think JP, can empathize with your situation and it's a real f*ck!ng problem that I can't do more than empathize with you.

please have my best wishes, my best regards and, with the new job (TBA), I hope to meet you one day ;)

Alain

Regarding the new job, it's in process but I'll be working 10-15 hours per weeks and making a better salary for these 10-15 hours as compared with 40 hours at my previous job.

That's all I can say but the employment contract have been signed. I'm just awaiting the moment where I can put it in LinkedIn to tell more details.

Al

@144

There is a difference between scholarly and hilarious, and each have their place. By the way, Dr. Crislip blogs in a few places. While it is quicker to read them on Medscape, SBM and SfSBM… it is much more interesting to listen to him speak. It is in the intonation.

Having listened to Dr. Crislip for a few years I find myself hearing his voice when reading his writing (including his intonation). I get the same "hearing" sensation when I crack open the Feynman Lectures and "hear" Feynman speaking. Maybe I'm just a but crazy though.

By stewartt1982 (not verified) on 24 Oct 2015 #permalink

@Alain: Congrats on new job; sounds awesome. BTW, if Lord Draconis steps in the lift before you, it's always best wait for the next one – you don't want to end up as hatchling chow on your first day.

Thank you, Dr. Omer.

Not to mention thank you, CBS46. It's nice when the media comes down on the side of reality.

Chris, adding to the wish we could help. I'm childless and can only imagine what you're going through.

Today, Dan ( AoA) asks "What's Wrong With a Little Speculation?"
and then, invites "ridicule"- literally as well as figuratively-

- does HPV lower the birth rate
- does deodorant cause breast cancer
- does makeup use amongst teenaged girls lead to anorexia
- do mercury fillings cause delusions/ hallucinations
- do mercury fillings lead to gender identity issues
- do armed forces personnel become suicidal because of meds

I might add:
Is the moon made of green cheese?
Does Dan have an ounce of sense left?
Is AoA not totally devoid of reasonability?

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 24 Oct 2015 #permalink

@ Chris:

I certainly understand. It's daunting but you are better equipped than most people to deal with this. I wonder if it relates to your GI issues?

Think, however, that unlike some people we read about who have had similar tasks, you can envision your options and situation much more realistically than those who peer through the distorting prism of vaccine/ toxin blaming mania.

You'll do it. It'll be over. Your son will be protected.

And you won't need to study martials arts weapons to control your over-active aggressiveness like someone we know.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 24 Oct 2015 #permalink

"I certainly understand. It’s daunting but you are better equipped than most people to deal with this. I wonder if it relates to your GI issues?"

Thanks to you all. It is all a royal pain in the posterior.

I guess I am better equipped than many parents. It helps that I have stumbled into things by pure luck. I decided to go to a talk about autism and finances, and lo and behold the attorney who spoke on special needs trust was a parent I knew from my son's special ed. preschool! So I hired her, and will in a few minutes go over the draft her office sent to us.

I have also learned that she is on of the best lawyers in this state. In the big picture, when you average it all out there are good things that can help balance out the bad.

"And you won’t need to study martials arts weapons to control your over-active aggressiveness like someone we know."

Being snarky to some clueless commenters is the extent of my aggressiveness... oh, and telling some how I real feel about people who let kids get chicken pox, rotavirus, measles, Hib, etc.

@ Denice Walter
And what is the answer on speculation number 5?

Today, Dan ( AoA) asks “What’s Wrong With a Little Speculation?”

Stone's claim yesterday that the U.S. "owns the patent" on Rotavac (which, despite being the lede, seemingly had nothing to do with the rest of the post) was so brain dead that I had to restrain myself from explaining the idiocy to him in detail.

Then I remembered that he simply never acknowledges being wrong (or lying, as in the case of his claim that he's authored Pubmed-indexed papers).*

* They're two letters to the editor, amounting to about three paragraphs each.

Today, Dan ( AoA) asks “What’s Wrong With a Little Speculation?”

Making up Just-So stories is fine if you have the literary talent, but not everyone is able to Kiple.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 24 Oct 2015 #permalink

@ Renate:

If you mean 'gender identity issues"-
Dan seems to think that it's possible because he knows of ONE person with gender issues who had many vaccines or suchlike.

Narad and herr doktor:

AoA is simply a treasure trove is you think that BS is a precious commodity. At the very least, it is all available in one pile and one needn't search around multitudinous twitter accounts and facebook pages.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 25 Oct 2015 #permalink

I thought the gender issues had something to do with mercury fillings.

I think I saw something on one of those (qu)(w)acky about someone with gender issues who had regrets, which of course was used to consider all people with gender issues being misled, or something like that.

Renate,
The shape-shifting daemon, Mercury, takes many forms and guises... dental fillings, vaccines, thermometers

Notice how Dan jumps to conclusions... I mean "speculation" based upon a case or two. He's an investigative reporter.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 25 Oct 2015 #permalink

Renate@190

I thought the gender issues had something to do with mercury fillings.

As Denice Walter said, Dan's premise is weak. He is actually chaining speculations here.
A. mercury in vaccines cause ADHD and tics.
B. he knows someone with ADHD and someone with a tic disorder and both have gender identity issues.
C. therefore mercury in vaccines causes gender identity issues.

Beyond that, I'm not aware of any evidence that gender confusion is pathologic. I'd guess that speculating (absent evidence) otherwise is offensive in the same way that calling autistics 'vaccine damaged' is.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 25 Oct 2015 #permalink

These people should try their hand on writing fiction instead of telling people they bring out some secret truth.

OT but I imagine that there's always a spot for Shadenfreude, irony et al @ RI, so why not here?

as you may know from my reports, 2 alt media loons have been frightening people who live on the coasts as well as those who live in drought-stricken areas and "gang-ridden" cities to move to that Paradise on Earth- eastern and central Tejas! Save yourselves, People! they cried.

First Mikey moved to the Austin area and then, Null began to create his own health resort/ spa/ medical counselling concern/ charity endeavor/ kingdom near Tyler- both "sustainable" areas with adequate water and lacking in crime, fracking and police state regulations.

Well, Austin was visited by wildfires last week which have been quenched by torrential rains precipitating from the monstrous hurricane which struck the Mexican Riviera. Similar events occurred in May. The Tyler area has not been spared which meant that the owner/ lord needed to fly there and intervene a few months ago. Mike even had a chance to parade his charitable contributions to those affected by flood.

Brilliance like these guys' is usually rewarded appropriately.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 25 Oct 2015 #permalink

Would you classify the preeminent immunologists, scientists and doctors who collaborated on the new medical textbook, "Vaccines and Autoimmunity" as "antivax" lunatics ??!! It is chock full of studies done worldwide at prestigious universities and hospitals which link autoimmune and neurological disorders with vaccines. Injury and death as reactions are real. And what is also real is there is no screening process to see who might be predisposed to such injury and death. Those anti-vaxxers will have the last laugh....although by the time the CDC corruption is disclosed, doctors who know better step up and parents are finally able to make truly informed choices, it will be too late for many and no one will be laughing.

By Jackie Horton (not verified) on 25 Oct 2015 #permalink

Would you classify the preeminent immunologists, scientists and doctors who collaborated on the new medical textbook, “Vaccines and Autoimmunity” as “antivax” lunatics ??!!

Heh.

Would you classify the preeminent immunologists, scientists and doctors who collaborated on the new medical textbook, “Vaccines and Autoimmunity” as “antivax” lunatics ?

"Editors: Yehuda Shoenfeld, Nancy Agmon-Levin"
Ah, familar names. I would prefer to extend the words "antivax" and "lunatics" with qualifiers like "grifters" and "deluded".

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 25 Oct 2015 #permalink

And what is also real is there is no screening process to see who might be predisposed to such injury and death.

Does a test for such a predisposition exist, assuming ASIA* is a valid syndrome?

*As opposed to Asia, for which we have proof.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 25 Oct 2015 #permalink

Sigh, link fail.
Asia

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 25 Oct 2015 #permalink

M O'B, the people in your Asia link are vouching for mainstream cancer treatment through surgery and chemo, proving them to be dupes and shills for Big Pharma, so we can discount your evidence for their putative existence.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 25 Oct 2015 #permalink

me@192

Beyond that, I’m not aware of any evidence that gender confusion is pathologic. I’d guess that speculating (absent evidence) otherwise is offensive in the same way that calling autistics ‘vaccine damaged’ is.

Actually, it might be more how homosexuality used to be considered a disease to be cured. Not that it matters much; Dan is a being a d*ck going around calling people injured and damaged. But we all knew JAQing off takes a d*ck.

Jackie Horton@195
I'm gonna go ahead and agree with herr doktor bimler on this one. ASIA sounds entirely made up. Came across this interesting paper of which Shoenfeld was an author.

Abstract begins:

Vaccines and autoimmunity are linked fields.

Anstract ends:

In conclusion, there are several case reports of autoimmune diseases following vaccines, however, due to the limited number of cases, the different classifications of symptoms and the long latency period of the diseases, every attempt for an epidemiological study has so far failed to deliver a connection.

To me it looks like a group of cranks creating an artificially inflated body of self referential 'evidence' to give their pet idea credence without providing evidence (because studies done in good faith show the opposite). It's like how trolls converse with their own sockpuppets to give the illusion that people agree with them.

And like any good cranks they won't let lack of evidence stop them.

Despite this, efforts to unveil the connection between the triggering of the immune system by adjuvants and the development of autoimmune conditions should be undertaken.

Yup, good use of resources there.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 25 Oct 2015 #permalink

Beyond that, I’m not aware of any evidence that gender confusion is pathologic. I’d guess that speculating (absent evidence) otherwise is offensive in the same way that calling autistics ‘vaccine damaged’ is.

Does general indifference* toward the concept (of gender) count as confusion? I mean, I guess I sort of feel like both/neither a man and a woman, but also I don't really give a sh!t, I am a Jamie.

Incidentally, isn't Dan gay? You'd think he'd be a little bit less of a d!ck toward the gender-variant. I suppose the T has always taken plenty of sh!t from the L, G and B as well as from the general population, though.

*Okay, not totally indifferent, insofar as wearing dresses and whatnot makes me want to vomit. Earrings I like, though.

JP@202

Does general indifference* toward the concept (of gender) count as confusion?

You should probably start chelation therapy just in case.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 25 Oct 2015 #permalink

@ JP:

Yes, Dan is gay and also a dick.

You say something that brings to mind what I heard about multiple ( 38?) gender labels on social media/ campuses - including none/ aromantic/ neutral. And use of the singular *they* as a pronoun.

Although this is supposed to be a thing now I do recall quite a few gay/ lesbian/ bi/ straight folk back in the mists of time who made similar statements. To be honest, I don't strongly identify with what is supposed to be feminine although I do like some - but not all of the trappings- I like men - perhaps a little too much - but I am usually able to 'manage' them in a manner that they accept and enjoy.

Ooh, that sounds very bad.

At any rate, For a while back then- and not just locally as I was travelling/ studying about the wide world - younger folk seemed to really question sex roles and stereotypes. There's a different slant on it now though.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 25 Oct 2015 #permalink

Would you classify the preeminent immunologists, scientists and doctors who collaborated on the new medical textbook, “Vaccines and Autoimmunity” as “antivax” lunatics ??!!

Short answer? Yes.

At any rate, For a while back then- and not just locally as I was travelling/ studying about the wide world – younger folk seemed to really question sex roles and stereotypes. There’s a different slant on it now though.

Oh, we (I suppose) have always been there, in one form or another, and pretty much always the marginal-among-the-marginal. One of the things that I found super obnoxious about the new Stonewall movie is the way it totally stripped the event of all the tough butch dykes and drag queens, let alone other trans people. The suburban-aspiring non-hets don't like being associated with such freak show riff-raff, I suppose.

The film was also super white-washed in terms of race. Just generally kind of ugh.

the new medical textbook, “Vaccines and Autoimmunity”

Dare I ask about the courses which will be taught using this book-shaped artifact as the text? Or is "textbook" used here merely to endow it with an aura of acceptance?

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 25 Oct 2015 #permalink

capnkrunch:
You should probably start chelation therapy just in case.
Chelation doesn't work when the mercury is bound up with testosterone. Didn't the Geiers' work teach you anything? That's why they introduced the Lupron protocol.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 25 Oct 2015 #permalink

Have I just not been paying attention, or is "Children’s Medical Safety Research Institute" something new?

Danke, herr doktor.
I didn't turn up either of the posts you linked into when I tried searches. I wouldn't have found Tara's, since I searched only RI (tried the search box for CMSRI, then the full name).
Am I being a dolt and searching incompetently, or do you have a astounding memory?

I wish I'd put on my best cringing shawl before visiting the CMSRI site.

Jon Rappoport/No More Fake News

"I have experienced no pressure or retaliation and certainly was not escorted from the building, as some have stated."

I see the CMSRI also likes to JAQ off. Are they profiteering FUDdruckers? "Makes you wonder."

Comment by Jim Easter from herr doktor bimler's second link:

Behind the false fronts, there are only a handful of anti-vaccine cranks, with Shaw, Tomljenovic and Shoenfeld at the center, all citing one another.

IIRC, this trick was used briefly in the early days of SEO but Google stomped it out pretty quickly. roguepharmacy.ru must be legit, look at all the incoming links (from rogue-pharmacy.ru)! Just like these guys must be legit, look at all their references (to their other papers).

Just goes to show that Google's algorithms have better critical thinking skills that Jackie Horton. Shocking for an antivaxer.

Denice Walter@205

And use of the singular *they* as a pronoun.

Lack of a gender neutral singular personal pronoun always struck me as a glaring omission in our langauge. I'm of the 'no singular they' camp (in writing at least) but man is he/she (or she/he, it don't matter) ugly. And referring to someone in speech as he or she or she or he just seems offensive. We really need a new word because misappropriating they is not the least bit elegant.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 25 Oct 2015 #permalink

IIRC, this trick was used briefly in the early days of SEO but Google stomped it out pretty quickly. roguepharmacy.ru must be legit, look at all the incoming links (from rogue-pharmacy.ru)! Just like these guys must be legit, look at all their references (to their other papers).

A few checks of non-Shoenfeld items in the TOC suggested that more than a few such items are rehashes of stuff that has already been published by the same people but with Shoenfeld as a coauthor.

Lack of a gender neutral singular personal pronoun always struck me as a glaring omission in our langauge. I’m of the ‘no singular they’ camp (in writing at least) but man is he/she (or she/he, it don’t matter) ugly. And referring to someone in speech as he or she or she or he just seems offensive. We really need a new word because misappropriating they is not the least bit elegant.

I mean, "they" as a singular pronoun for a person whose gender is unknown has been standard English usage since at least Chaucer. ("Somebody left their gloves on the table." "Somebody called and asked for you this morning." "Did they say what they wanted?" And so on.) It's really a funny kind of schoolmarmishness when people get bothered about, saying it's "incorrect," and so on. I mean, "you" is grammatically plural, for Pete's sake.

That said, I do find it feels unnatural to refer to a specific person, like someone who's in the room with me, as "they," but I definitely do it if somebody asks me to. I mean, it is at least an attested English usage, as opposed to pronouns like "xie" and so on, which never did seem to catch on at all.

I wonder if it feels unnatural just because I'm so un-used to it. I personally just go with "she," because it makes life simpler, but I have never minded being taken for a he. Being called "it" is unpleasantly dehumanizing, though.

Am I being a dolt and searching incompetently, or do you have a astounding memory?

Now I cannot admit to having a less-than-astounding memory without calling Doug a dolt.
I resorted to the Gougle, for the Scienceblogs search option only looks at the original post, not at the comment thread.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 25 Oct 2015 #permalink

@Alain:

Haha, yes, of course you are allowed. :)

@ Liz Ditz #171

Makes you wonder how t parents without such educational advantages manage. I’ll give you a clue: they don’t, and their children are under-served.

Add "being from a non-English*-speaking country" to the mix, and the success rate of correctly filled forms drops even further.

*well, non-local-language. Filling forms in French is not easier than filling them in English if you only have a basic grasp of the country's language and next to nil knowledge of the local bureaucracy.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 25 Oct 2015 #permalink

Lack of a gender neutral singular personal pronoun always struck me as a glaring omission in our langauge.

Back when I was a lad, there was a gender neutral singular personal pronoun in common use. Anybody could use it as he needed to. It also happened to be spelled the same as the masculine singular personal pronoun.

Another that has been in use is "one", and it's a handy word to add to one's arsenal. However, this seems not to have caught on*, and it doesn't really work well in certain contexts like "McCartney is a guitar player and one used to be in the Beatles" or "Bernie Sanders? Who's one?"

Of course, one could simply use either "he" or "she" as a genderless term, applying corrections as desired. Example: "I just read a book by Kim Stanley Robinson." "What's she written?" "He wrote 'Blue Mars'."

But then, that would lead to snickering.

* I blame Harry Nilsson.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 26 Oct 2015 #permalink

It seems that the CDC rally included a speech by RFK jr, who issues this challenge:
" Frank De Stefano, if you didn't poison these children, you need to sue me right now and shut me up"
AoA displayed a recording of him ( that didn't play)
and also put out a "virtual debate" of Offit vs Haley.

Those actions should summarise the anti-vaxxers current state of being:
talking to themselves.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 26 Oct 2015 #permalink

@Denise #225. Why on earth would DeStefano worry about suing such a sad little rump of people? According to reports I've seen, they had 200-400 people at the Rally. And this is after a large amount of time to prepare and the NOI behind them.

By Broken Link (not verified) on 26 Oct 2015 #permalink

Broken Link, I think it's funny how these people toss about insults like 'research fraud' when most of them idolise AJW.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 26 Oct 2015 #permalink

Renate@193:

These people should try their hand on writing fiction instead of telling people they bring out some secret truth.

Write it? They live it!

@Alain:

I see we have the same barber.

Firstly, CDC doesn't sue. Secondly, if it did, Kennedy would be screaming a defence of Ist amendment, protected speech, hyperbole, about fifteen seconds later.

It's sad to think that anyone has ever been represented by a lawyer of such low calibre.

As a journalist, I'd obviously kill for documents of the kind he speaks of. Sadly, I've read some of the reports that he says accuses CDC of being a "cesspool of corruption", and they don't.

Nor did Thompson accuse anybody of fraud in anything I've seen.

So I won't be holding my breath.

By Brian Deer (not verified) on 26 Oct 2015 #permalink

" Firstly, CDC doesn't sue."

Which is probably why he made the statement, He KNOWS it ain't gonna happen.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 26 Oct 2015 #permalink

” Frank De Stefano, if you didn’t poison these children, you need to sue me right now and shut me up”

That's comment-thread trolling tactics. "Here are some delusional and barely comprehensible claims; if you ignore me and fail to refute them at length then you are ADMITTING THEY ARE TRUE, hurr hurr".

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 26 Oct 2015 #permalink

I noticed that he also played the "show me the paper" gambit, which was a favourite of the old Aids denialists.

Show me one paper that proves that HIV.... blah, blah.

By Brian Deer (not verified) on 26 Oct 2015 #permalink

Kennedy would be screaming a defence of Ist amendment, protected speech, hyperbole, about fifteen seconds later

It would require the purportedly defamed individuals to show that Kennedy had enough credibility and standing in the community for the stupid spilling out from his mouth to injure their reputations.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 26 Oct 2015 #permalink

For some reason, I am frequently invited to a Spring garden party for an environmental advocacy group held at an historic estate where Kennedy is speaking or present.

So far, I have resisted the opportunity for close-up observation and sarcasm.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 26 Oct 2015 #permalink

I think that Kennedy's speech tells us all we need to know about him. He is an irrelevant bump on history that not even the tabloids will take seriously, trying to trade on his famous name and failing. And he knows it.

His "You're a liar. So sue me or it is true" exercise is seriously scraping the bottom of the barrel.

If Frank De Stefano doesn't challenge Kennedy to a duel and defeat him then he admits that everything Kennedy says is true, that pigs fly, and that Bilbo Baggins is the real King under the Mountain.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 26 Oct 2015 #permalink

That’s comment-thread trolling tactics. “Here are some delusional and barely comprehensible claims; if you ignore me and fail to refute them at length then you are ADMITTING THEY ARE TRUE, hurr hurr”.

It was nice of him to throw Wakefraud under the bus, though – after all, he never followed through on his promise to sue Emily Willingham.

Apparently Judy Mikovits was there as well.

Which reminds me. If Judy didn't sue Abbie Smith for showing the labels on a blot had been changed, does this make Smith's claims all true?

Orca is a troll who spreads lies because he gets grants from pharma and then does studies with that money. Orac will go to hell for not protecting people. What comes around goes around.

By Lisa morelli (not verified) on 28 Oct 2015 #permalink

Annual salary of a bank CEO in Canada:

http://www.canadianbusiness.com/lists-and-rankings/richest-people/top-1…

Annual salary of a medical doctor:

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Family_Physician_%2f_Doctor/Sal…

Dear Lisa Morelli, are you saying that medical doctor are in it for the money?

If so, why the top of the cream of every university medical school justify the absolutely insane choice of going into medicine instead of becoming a banker and making a ton more money; legitimately of course?

Alain

Orca is a troll who spreads lies

Alright, which lies ? And I suppose you have evidence to back up your version ?

ORAC.
Orca is over at whale.to.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 28 Oct 2015 #permalink

Orca is a troll who spreads lies

Perhaps Lisa has a confused recollection of Orcus, one of the Roman gods of the underworld, punisher of broken oaths.Or perhaps of the supernatural figure of the same name in Saberhagen's "Empire of the East: trilogy.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 28 Oct 2015 #permalink

Or it could simply be an autocorrect fail. *shrugs*
Still waiting for concrete demonstrations of lies by the way.

Orca is a troll who spreads lies because he gets grants from pharma and then does studies with that money.

Pharma influence, although pervasive, is not that simple, and the author himself offered his version of this accusation.
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/in-which-i-am-once-again-in-the-cr…

Also, yes, if a study is funded by industry, it has to be read with an extra degree of skepticism. But this is far from sufficient to declare it wrong from the start.

I learned from Narad's link that the Petitioner had a couple of hepatitis shots, and six months later went to see Dr Harold Buttram, and then fell part completely. From which (by the principle of temporal proximity) we can conclude that exposure to anti-vax cranks can seriously damage one's psychological health

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 12 Nov 2015 #permalink

@ hdb

From which (by the principle of temporal proximity) we can conclude that exposure to anti-vax cranks can seriously damage one’s psychological health

You are joking, but:
Given that exposure to a convincing salesperson or a talented religious preacher is known to have some success at influencing people decisions, be it buying a bigger car or converting to a new religion*, that may not be so far-fetched an hypothesis.

* Or like the Norwegian student who killed herself in Nice in 2008 right after visiting the local branch of the Church of Happyology and taking their personality test. But I digress.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 13 Nov 2015 #permalink

That was interesting Narad, thanks. HDB notes the interesting "physician" the petitioner initially sought out. I had no idea that soliciting prostitutes was a vaccine side effect. It's not on the package insert.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 13 Nov 2015 #permalink

@ Science Mom

I had no idea that soliciting prostitutes was a vaccine side effect. It’s not on the package insert.

Eh, 95% of people* patronizing a peripatéticienne are vaccinated. Coincidence? I think not.

* or whatever the % of vaccinated people is in the general population...

By Helianthus (not verified) on 13 Nov 2015 #permalink

"Peripateticienne."

Gawd. This is why I love French.

By shay simmons (not verified) on 13 Nov 2015 #permalink