I noticed the other day that I haven’t been visiting the merry band of antivaccine activists and bloggers over at their very own wretched hive of scum and quackery, Age of Autism, nearly as much as I used to. I have mentioned them in passing a couple of times recently, but nothing caught my attention sufficiently to be worth applying a bit of the old Insolence, Respectful or not-so-Respectful. Part of that has been intentional, as I no longer like to give them any more attention than I need to. Part of it was unintentional and more because, quite frankly, AoA has been mighty boring lately. I mean, sure, I’ve noted when they have supported Andrew Wakefield’s propaganda “documentary” VAXXED, which, unsurprisingly, they do with great gusto, but with much of the nuttiest antivaccine rhetoric these days coming from the VAXXED crew itself there has been less of a need to check into AoA as regularly. Then, with the rise of Facebook and Twitter as an organizing force for antivaccine activists, AoA just seems quaint by comparison.
Oddly enough, it was the VAXXED crew who got me to notice AoA again. Remember how, around this time last year, Andrew Wakefield’s groupies and believers in the “CDC whistleblower” conspiracy theory descended on Atlanta with Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. and the Nation of Islam to embarrass themselves with a puny “protest” at the CDC that they called the #CDCTruth Rally? Well, they’re at it again, only a couple of weeks earlier than last year? To be honest, unlike the case last year, this year I barely noticed, even though the #CDCtruth hashtag has been resurrected on Twitter, and the VAXXED Periscope account has been busy.with a bunch of videos of the event, including Del Bigtree spewing the same antivaccine nonsense he’s been spewing nonstop since the documentary was released.
I’m not going to subject myself to all the videos in order to deconstruct things I’ve heard and written about many times before. I’m just not in the mood, and I wrote a fairly long post for my not-so-super-secret other blog, meaning time is short. Instead, let me just show you something about this incident that tells you a lot about what you need to know about the antivaccine “activists” behind this protest. Last year, on the Friday of the protest, I was amused at how some of the protesters latched on to a poor guy just trying to do his job power washing a wall near where some of the protesters were standing as being a “spy” sent to keep an eye on them by the nefarious powers at the CDC. It was something to laugh at and illustrated the level of paranoia and the ridiculousness of antivaccine conspiracy theories. This time around, it’s something equally silly, but darker, as we see in a post on AoA entitled Vaccine Injury Community Seeks Identity of CDC Employee Who Used Rude Gesture. Basically, someone (and it’s not clear if it was even a CDC employee) flipped off some protesters:
On Friday, October 14th, families of vaccine injured children, and those concerned with vaccine safety, gathered outside the CDC in Atlanta to protest. Families were also there to express their distress at the new draconian rules being proposed by the CDC that will give them the power to detain, and coerce medical treatment for, anyone they suspect is ill or could become ill. The agency has failed to respond to more than a decade of charges of fraud and abuse of power in the epidemic of vaccine injuries being reported.
Protesters reported that CDC employees walking through the protest said to the parents:
“Get out of my way, stupid idiots. Some people have real jobs.”
And another CDC employee responding to a chant of “stop killing our babies,” said, “Your babies keep us employed.” (video of the report here.)
Finally this man (see photo and video) responded to a woman holding a sign and trying to talk to him about her son’s MMR induced stroke with the following gesture.
Here’s a video:
Imagine that. CDC employees don’t take kindly to being yelled at, harassed o their way to work, and called baby killers. Who’d have thought it?
So let’s back up. There was a protester, identified as Mace’s Mom (Kerra Icansketchu–whether that’s her real last name or not, I don’t know) speaking loudly and condescendingly to this man whoever he is, with cloyingly phony politeness and continuing to basically yell at him even after he told her repeatedly and pointedly, “Go away.” So, failing to get Icansketchu to leave him alone one way, the man tried another way. He flipped her the bird. Icansketchu, of course, persisted and escalated because, of course she did, making claims about, for example, how “her girlfriend’s babies are all dead from vaccines” and bragging about working with an MIT researcher. As an aside, I can only assume that researcher must be Stephanie Seneff (a woman who has claimed that half of all children will be autistic by 2025 and blames autism on vaccines and GMOs), as I’m unaware of any other antivaccine “researchers” at MIT.
Granted, personally, cranking up the old middle finger is not the approach that I would have used or recommended, although if I were in a very bad mood I can’t completely state without a doubt that I would never have succumbed to my baser instincts when cornered by a protester like this. Even leaving aside the fact that the woman in front of this man was harassing him about vaccines and blaming him for killing babies, thinking about when I’ve been approached in the street by aggressive protesters or panhandlers or people selling things or anyone else with whom I did not want to engage at the moment, I fully understand this man’s reaction and even sympathize with it. He was no doubt experiencing a classic “fight or flight” response—and he couldn’t flee right away, as he appeared to be waiting for the light to change. I do, of course, consider it to have been unwise of him to have succumbed to the temptation, not because the woman didn’t deserve to be told off in no uncertain terms, but because I’d be afraid of the protesters in the vicinity potentially getting more confrontational. Basically, I wouldn’t want to provoke them further. Consequently, my preferred approach would have probably been to stare at my iPhone and refuse to make eye contact until I could get away from this woman.
Now here’s the disturbing part that illustrates the preferred tactic of antivaccine activists:
The CDC has been contacted in order to confirm the identity of their employee, and to respond to the reports by parents. This article will be updated to reflect the response of the agency.
And this note, which looks as though it were added later, by “Kim,” presumably Kim Stagliano:
There is speculation as to who is this person. We will not publish comments that guess if "this is he," or "this is what I read on FB" about someone who could have been home with a head cold and not at work at the CDC at all. Also, if we do learn his identity, we'll offer him a change to tell us his side of the story, including what provoked him to flip off a protester. We live in a world where many are quick to jump to conclusions, road rage is everywhere and people can be hurt. I spend much of my time teaching martial arts and self defense to men and women. The safest choice is not to engage. I do want to know what happened here.
Notice how Kim is pretending to take the high road. I call BS. The real reason why AoA wants the identity of this man, whoever he is (and, again, it’s not even clear that he is an employee of the CDC), is to punish him, either through his employer or through publicizing who he is, so that he can be located and harassed by antivaccine activists. Make no mistake about it. This is their real aim here, and all that high-sounding verbiage about “offering him a chance to tell us his side of the story” is just cover. After all, the video makes it very, very clear why this man flipped the protester off. She wouldn’t get out of his face when he made it crystal clear that he had no desire to speak with her.
The funny thing is, even some of the commenters at AoA did not react well to this post. For instance, Linda1 says:
What does the person on the street owe a protestor? The video clearly shows this man trying to walk around the protestor and then when he's waiting for the light to change to cross the street, she gets in his face and demands his attention. Three times he quietly asks her to "go away" and she doesn't stop, doesn't respect his three requests. Finally, when she fails to engage him, she retaliates by telling him that she's going to take his picture. That's when the finger goes up and while I think it would have been better if he controlled himself and didn't respond to her provocation, I don't blame his reaction to it. She was clearly pushing his buttons.
The CDC has 15,000 employees. All of them do not work in the Immunization Safety Branch. We do not do our movement any favors when we are aggressive with people who just happen to be employees. If you want to get in DeStefano or Boyle's face, I have no problem with that. They deserve it. But this guy was just trying to cross the street. He had no obligation to talk to or listen to anyone.
Sanity!
And Kathy:
According to some CDC employees, they all wear badges while out and about. So, he is not a CDC employee. Further, this CDC employee told me that the rally protesters were blocking people's paths, including this guy's, accosting them verbally, preventing them from going to lunch. They may be charges filed against the rally sponsors.
And more sanity from Bayareamom:
What little I saw when viewing that short video was all I needed to see. That woman, while 'attempting' to appear polite w/her protest, was clearly in this man's face. She was standing in his personal space and simply would not let up. While I did not note that he quietly asked her to stop, MY nerves would have been shot if I had been in his shoes.
This mom had absolutely no idea who this man was/is and EVEN if he was a CDC employee, this does not mean that he works in the Immunization Branch. And even if he did, it wouldn't mean he is someone who has any sort of authority re the scandal that is ongoing re Thompson, OR have had anything to do with the MMR fraudulent research issue.
When I told my husband about this event and what had transpired w/this man and this mom, he looked at me and said that she's lucky she didn't get in HIS face if that had been him. My husband's the type of guy that just wants to do his business and not be hassled by anyone trying to sell him something, whether it's Girl Scout cookies, a newspaper, or a petition to be signed. He wants to be left alone.
And back to Linda1:
"...you cannot resort to some of the same sort of crass behavior we all complain about w/folks on the other side of the fence, and then resort to same, on our side."
Exactly right. We complain about being bullied. This guy was bullied, shown on our side's video that is now all over the internet.
Of course, you can’t have an antivaccine discussion thread without Godwin, and, right on cue, here’s this thread’s obligatory Nazi reference, courtesy of DaWei:
The mother shown has a vaccine injured child who is injured because of work done IN the CDC complex. She has EVERY RIGHT to protest. EVERY RIGHT to 'get in the face' of her aggressor. If the man in the photo was headed into the CDC complex or coming out of it, he is affiliated with the CDC. Please do not demean people's efforts who are doing something for YOU (whether you acknowledge it or not), while you sit at home and review your 'Miss Manners' checklist for protest etiquette. I'm sure protesting at the entrance to Auschwitz would have been something you found equally distasteful and disruptive to the workforce.
Thank you, DaWei. I can now rest easy, knowing that the universe is behaving the way it’s always behaved. If no one had brought up Auschwitz, Hitler, or the Nazis in this AoA thread, I would have wondered if perhaps this were an episode of Timeless, such as the pilot where time travelers made a change in history and one of them came back to find something in her life changed.
One wonders how many employees “confronted” by #CDCTruth protesters actually work for the Immunization Branch—or even the CDC. I also wonder if the CDC is providing training to its employees on how to deal with protests and situations like this. After all, Kerra Icansketchu was clearly trying to provoke a reaction. Unfortunately she succeeded. Amusingly, though, the merry band of antivaccine loons at AoA are so ensconced in their own little fact- and science-free bubble that what they see when they watch this video is not what most people see. Most people will sympathize with the man cornered at a traffic light by a raving woman getting in his face and threatening to take his picture for what can’t be a good purpose. Not so amusingly, unfortunately, their delusion is leading them to try to find this man so that he can be targeted for harassment and made an example of. Here’s hoping they don’t find him.
ADDENDUM: AoA appears to have taken down this post. Fortunately, there's still a Google Cache of it. Here is the complete text:
NOTE: There is speculation as to who is this person. We will not publish comments that guess if "this is he," or "this is what I read on FB" about someone who could have been home with a head cold and not at work at the CDC at all. Also, if we do learn his identity, we'll offer him a change to tell us his side of the story, including what provoked him to flip off a protester. We live in a world where many are quick to jump to conclusions, road rage is everywhere and people can be hurt. I spend much of my time teaching martial arts and self defense to men and women. The safest choice is not to engage. I do want to know what happened here. KIM
Thank you to the Canary Party for this report from Atlanta:
On Friday, October 14th, families of vaccine injured children, and those concerned with vaccine safety, gathered outside the CDC in Atlanta to protest. Families were also there to express their distress at the new draconian rules being proposed by the CDC that will give them the power to detain, and coerce medical treatment for, anyone they suspect is ill or could become ill. The agency has failed to respond to more than a decade of charges of fraud and abuse of power in the epidemic of vaccine injuries being reported.
Protesters reported that CDC employees walking through the protest said to the parents:
“Get out of my way, stupid idiots. Some people have real jobs.”
And another CDC employee responding to a chant of “stop killing our babies,” said, “Your babies keep us employed.” (video of the report here.)
Finally this man (see photo and video) responded to a woman holding a sign and trying to talk to him about her son’s MMR induced stroke with the following gesture:
cdcemployee
(video here.)
The response of some of the employees speaks to the culture of the agency and their true attitudes toward those reporting vaccine injury.
The CDC has been contacted in order to confirm the identity of their employee, and to respond to the reports by parents. This article will be updated to reflect the response of the agency.
UPDATE: The person whose name has been bandied about is NOT the person in the photo. We have confirmation of this. Please put down the pitchforks before someone puts an eye out. His rude gesture isn't appreciated by any of us. It's puerile at best. Obnoxious too. I suppose his fight or flight kicked in and he chose.... finger. Protests trigger anger all around. We are a community near the brink in many ways.
Onward with our mission. The real culprits are safely ensconced in corner offices.
Imagine that. Shame works, even at AoA. I like to hope that I had something to do with this, given that the term "fight or flight" is the same term I used to describe this guy's reaction.
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Fortunately for the #DEPOPULATIONAGENDA, no-one at AoA suspects that Kerra Icansketchu is One of Us -- infiltrating their movement and working to discredit it, by convincing the wider public that they're *all* histrionic shouty people.
They suggested an identity which is almost certainly wrong. So someone who was not involved has already, apparently, been subjected to harassment. Because someone decided he looked like this man.
Lynch mob mentality. Let's find someone as a scapegoat and harass him/her. Whatever the prey does is just evidence of its guilt.
Thanks goodness there are some reasonable voices at AoA. For now.
I don't react well to crowds, or to being confronted by an irate woman (I do slightly better if confronted by a man, but not by much). In a situation like this, I may go for the rabbit routine: either freeze on the spot and wait for the predator to go away, or try to flee by jumping into the traffic.
Did any of these savvy protesters took pictures of MIB sent by the CDC to spy on them? Wall-washer guy may have been around, disguised as a lamppost.
Cannot let pass the stupidity of this:
You would mostly have found it lethal. The nazis guards would have bring you in for a nice shower or given you an overdose of lead.
DaWei, count your blessings that your opponents are not really military men from a sadistic, fascist state.
As a French, I know a thing or two about useless protests. These CDCtruth guys and lasses are more French than some of our lefty unionists.
Crowds tend to make me irritable, someone accosting me on the street, even more so. Someone taking my picture and getting inside of my personal space, well, I'd begin consider either tripping them with my cane or knocking their phone out of their hand with the monkey fist on my keychain.
@Helianthus, I got to serve alongside of Légion étrangère. Impressive folks, loved working with them!
Their field rations embarrassed us as well. The trading rate was five of our Meals, Rarely Edible for one real meal.
I’d begin consider either tripping them with my cane
Please tell me that it is really a swordstick.
@herr doktor, well I do happen to own a swordstick, I usually don't go out with it.
I have a good old fashioned wooden cane. Inherited it from my father.
Something like this:
https://www.amazon.com/Duro-Med-Mens-Deluxe-Wood-Walnut/dp/B000CSOQHS/r…
Oh, this is the swordstick.
http://www.atlantacutlery.com/p-863-knob-sword-cane.aspx
I'm fairly proficient with a sword, defeating my daughter when she was the captain of her college fencing team with the foil. :)
Wzrd1's true identity is revealed.
LOL!
Mace's Mom is indignant about being flipped off but has no problem getting her child to do it. Piece of work she is. They are clearly desperate and unhinged people attacking strangers on the street.
@ Science Mom
Unless her daughter was with her mother at the protest, she had have to learn that it was the proper* gesture to do from someone. Like her indignant mom.
Reminds me of the white little cute girl who offered a banana to Christiane Taubira, our (black-skinned) minister of Justice in a former French government, soon after a far-far-right newspaper made a front page joke** using her name along the words "monkey" and "banana".
The little child had to learn the gesture and its intent from someone.
* as in "in retaliation", not as in "polite"
** not the type of jokes which make me laugh
tl;dr: how easy it is for grown adults to warp a child's mind.
Mace's Mom makes a much better horror movie villain than someone like, oh, say, J.B. Handley. Handley is simply an angry blowhard, but this woman, with her faux politeness and "innocent" tone of voice used to attack others. There's a rather unsettling quality to it.
@ Wzrd1
OT
Thanks, we like to think of them as our own brand of Marines.
They tend to appear a lot in French bandes dessinées and other fictions, whenever the author needs to introduce some efficient military unit.
They are also mostly not-French people (until their retirement, anyway), something we forget a bit when taking pride of this example of French military prowess :-)
About the MRE - Maxim 7 of The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries: If the food is good enough, the grunts will stop complaining about the incoming fire.
Not to be outdone by power-washing guy, The Vaxxed "Team" is claiming the CDC hit them with chemtrails during their little protest:
https://twitter.com/reasonable_hank/status/787944504623935488
*sigh*
Classic bs - get in someone's face, provoke them until there's an emotional reaction, then act like the victim instead of the instigator.
The Vaxxed crowd screwed up in planning for their "protest and summit", seeing that they picked Oct. 14-16, same as the better-covered "Monsanto Tribunal" at the Hague.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kavinsenapathy/2016/10/13/monsanto-to-go-on…
Same over-the-top nuttiness in both groups (it would've made for a better photo op if the CDC protestors had lain down on the sidewalk outside the agency's building to simulate "vaccine injury").
I could do that easily. "I feel like crap, I'm gonna go lay down".
Whenever we got our vaccines in the military, I'd be feverish and achy within a few hours of receiving them. Others who would then get the same symptoms typically felt that way the next day, when I was recovered and could give them their ibuprofen and send them off to bed.
Somehow, I suspect that were I to become infected with the Spanish Influenza strain, I'd be the first to go into a cytokine storm... :/
Oh, slightly OT, but of public health note:
http://710keel.com/30-cases-of-west-nile-virus-reported-in-louisiana/
30 cases of West Nile virus infection in Shreveport, LA, across the river from me.
Now, I'm just waiting for Zika to arrive and create a new generation of Republicans.
Hey now, put that trout down.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Whacking_with_a_wet_trout
I think I gave away my age there...
The video clearly shows the gentleman crossing the street and walking towards the CVS/pharmacy and not towards the CDC.
The shadows cast by the participants indicates that its roughly 8 AM.
The folder in the gentleman's left hand is intentionally shielded from the protesters.
The gentleman's slightly disheveled appearance (e.g., facial hair and loose tie) indicates that he travels often.
From this evidence, one can clearly deduce that this gentleman is a sales representative for the CVS/pharmacy Minute-Clinic which distributes walk in vaccinations and injection services.
Does anyone know what the finger policy is at the CVS/pharmacy?
@Dochniak: "From this evidence, one can clearly deduce that this gentleman is a sales representative for the CVS/pharmacy Minute-Clinic which distributes walk in vaccinations and injection services."
What evidence? Just your own speculation and projection of what you want to believe.
No wonder you are generally ignored in this forum.
Argus, I assumed comment #19 was meant as irony.
Am I missing something?
Peebs,
If you are correct, then MJD's comment is even more nonsensical than I thought. Apropos of nothing.
Peebs@20: MJD has a well-earned reputation as a troll on this forum.
Poe's Law being in effect, I can understand how you would mistake that post for a parody.
Peebs, Dochniak's comment wasn't irony: he's just another anti-vaccine kook with a wild imagination and no real tether to reality.
I stand corrected. I naïvely assumed nobody could be that stupid.
It's clear from the video that the protester continued to engage the suspected CVS/pharmacy sales representative (see post #19) in an antagonistic manner.
If I was in that gentleman's place, I'd diffuse the situation by being more sympathetic and thank her for expressing her opinion in a non-violent manner.
I'm still advocating tripping her with my cane.
Flick the wrist, behind one knee, lever against the front of the other, trip forward.
"WTF are you doing with my cane?! Get the hell off of it, crazy woman! Where are the police?!"
It gets her away from my personal space and tends to be off putting to such a person's peers.
I wonder if some federal charges can be brought against someone who impeded a CDC employee from doing their job.
I'd like to reiterate that we don't know who the man was. There's no good basis for concluding anything about who he worked for. Including the CDC.
But to Chris's question, I don't think this counts as impeding anyone from doing his job. It was no doubt unpleasant, but she was not stopping him from going.
The very argument against civil rights on blacks voting. The crowds didn't *stop* them from voting.
What'd stop you or I and what'd stop an average employee are a bit of two different things, *we* know our rights and will stand to enforce them. Others, not as much, they don't want to lose time off from work.
I dunno, man, there's also Ham Brooks.
@Narad, I am in *no way, shape or form* that distinguished looking. ;)
Think, Bog Foot shamble, that's close, using a cane now (dammit!), thick and thing appearing and utterly average. :)
Regardless, kids love me and love to play with me and we wanted a larger family. :D
Mob mentality.
Methinks Michael J. Dochniak has been reading too much Conan Doyle of late.
Leaps of imagination worthy of the Watson rather than Holmes...
@MikeMa, I dunno.
I'm infamous for using hyperbole for humorous over-exaggeration - on steroids.
Argumentum ad absurdium.
With humor added, of course.
On occasion, I missed my target. It'd work in person, people could see me make a face. Online, not so well. :/
Could be an attempt at such, could be idiocy.
Only time and responses will tell. :)
Dorit Reiss: "But to Chris’s question, I don’t think this counts as impeding anyone from doing his job. It was no doubt unpleasant, but she was not stopping him from going."
Thanks. I have been following the Oregon Standoff trial, and a big part was impeding the federal employees from their jobs. The defense is denying this but from the above article was this:
I know, not quite the same as having some annoying person get into your face.
In fairness, I think it was just an attempted joke that landed with a splat.
@Orac, I've been actually thinking so as well.
Done a few of those myself in my day.
One of my worse, suggesting that I'd wrap my cane around someone's head. Unfortunately forgetting that canes aren't always like my wooden ones, causing distress on a very progressive site.
Although, there are a few that I'd not mind soaking a cane in water for a few months, then wrap it around their heads and let it dry... ;)
The line between the two is thinly drawn. Orac had a post earlier this year showing that the Venn diagram for anti-vax loons and gun nuts has some overlap. And Georgia is an open carry state, with licenses required but on a "shall issue" basis.
@Eric, erm, Pennsylvania has always been an open carry state and due to court order, due to shenanigans of race, shall issue.
Currently, we're living in Louisiana, an open carry state, shall issue.
One thing in common with both, nobody bothers to lug around a bunch of steel (well, the number is extremely low, as in unnoticable).
So, back home or in my current state of residence, I could lawfully lug around my M1A or M4. I'm equally as likely to lug around my bench vise.
Actually, I'm more likely to lug my bench vise, it'd be useful.
Not for my occupation, which is a desk job, but, in general life. Bolt the thing down, it's a useful tool.
In overall civilian life, the only time I had somewhat of a need to kill something, it was an animal for meat and that animal outsmarted me. As usual. Probably because I chose highly trafficked areas, well into hunting season and also forgot to load my rifle.*
Oddly, for an open carry state, when hunting, one requires a permit to open carry while hunting in PA.
But then, in theory, Philadelphia could open up for deer season and being an exempted city of the first class, it requires a permit for *any* carry, per state law.**
*You go out into buck season, well after doe season, bow season, black powder season, ... Yeah, the bucks know what time of year it is and head for the distant hills.
**Frequently forgotten by those who view Pennsylvania from afar is, while there are densely populated urban centers, much of the state is rural to forest. While the wolf is extinct in the region, coyote has returned and black bears remain, as well as harmful feral hogs.
As I've been treed by a feral hog, trust me, when it tried to knock the tree down that I was hiding in, yeah, they're a real problem.
In my case, a lot of luck came into play. I quickly improvised a spear from my field knife (the only thing I was allowed to bring in the survival course), angered it a lot, then hit a lucky spot. I waited 45 minutes after it stopped breathing before I came down.
As far as I am aware, I'm the *only* person to actually have gained weight on SERE training at that location.
Plain. Dumb. Luck.
Gamey meat though, fortunately, I had packets of salt, pepper and sugar inside of my pockets, smuggled in before I departed on that training.
I also had a plenitude of followers; flies. Their eggs tasted as good as the meat.
@ herr doktor bimler:
Correction:
Kerra Icansketchu is MOST definitely NOT One of Us:
we're much better with creating evocative and intriguing 'nyms and can spell.
" AoA has been mighty boring lately." - Orac
In other news:
The sky is blue.
The Pope is Catholic.
2016 will be remembered as the Year of the Loon.
I keep hoping that my ( ahem!) friend, Dan Olmsted will go off another long winding, tangential, intellectual
journey based solely
upon his prodigious powers of free association and wishful thinking.
HOWEVER on Saturday he griped about a campaign commercial that included an autistic person and his mother because the candidate being supported accepts vaccines.
It's almost enough to make us wish for the good old days when Jake was there.
It appears that the crowd at AoA deleted the original article....
FTFY. TINU. HAND.
Yep. I grabbed the Google Cache of it before it totally disappears. Note the addendum.
Wzrd1, long ago I took a short (3 day) survival course at an AFB. Our trainers stated that we must do anything needed to survive. So we stole their steaks from their comfy cabin.
By chance, I met one of the trainers and he still remembered the theft.
Most sensible people would not lug around a bunch of steel, true. But the category "most sensible people" doesn't include these yahoos, who were exercising their Second Amendment rights in front of a Democratic congressional candidate's campaign office in Virginia. I suspect that "most sensible people" doesn't include the sort of person who would post regularly on AoA. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but it only takes one idiot.
FWIW, I live in New Hampshire, which is an open carry state with no limitations--you can even legally carry inside the State House.
As nauseating as it is, give it time.
They'll get bored over not being noticed that way and stop lugging steel around.
I got tired of that long ago, wearing tree looking clothing, wearing US military insignia, issued to me.
Now, I'm only willing to lug around such crap on my own property, under threat of specific animals or for a photo, the latter is extremely rare.
I want to lug around grandkids, not firearms! ;)
"I also had a plenitude of followers; flies. Their eggs tasted as good as the meat."
Dancing rice. Good Lord.
Remember when Johnny Cash was performing live, and someone requested that he do the Refusers' song "Vaccine Woman"?
http://cf.collectorsweekly.com/uploads/2011/03/CashBird.jpg
I'm bummed out that this podcast seems to have been disappeared as well. I mean, it was even pimped at Levi Quackenboss's Robyn Ross's place.
P.S. G—le was suggesting "microchipping" instead of "microcephaly," but I've really got to get going on my taxes.
So, anything new from Gaimondes lately?
What a Nothing! Ms. "Icansketchu" is acting fairly mildly by street demo standards (and well within her rights), and the guy is re-acting mildly, just repeating "go away" in a calm, low tone of voice, as he waits for the light to change. Then as AoA commentor Linda1 noted, Icans-sneeze tells the guy she's going to take his picture. In this context, this is a sketchu-ey privacy issue, so here she's clearly pushing the legal envelope. The guy, then, is not flipping HER the bird; he's flipping off THE CAMERA, to make her picture show his opinion. The target of his finger is 'whoever wants to see my picture attached to some nut-job protest'. No picture, no bird. He's completely within his free expression rights to pose as he wants for the photo, and if the CVS/CDC mega-corporation disciplined him in any way, that would be beyond absurd...
But then, absurd is the new normal, I guess, when AoA commenters show more reality-sense than 40% of the American electorate...
So, Dan didn't bother to explain that the mom is voting for HRC because Trump's mockery of folks with disabilities led her understand "My son Max can't live in Trump world", then? (The Donald also repeatedly mocked Marlee Matlin's deafness when she was on Celebrity Apprentice, including on camera to-her-face, and referred to her as "retarded" to staffers.) That's AoA: they see their kids lives as damaged, destroyed -- a sort of walking dead so who cares how anyone treats them. All that matters is assigning guilt for the "damage". They probably identify with Trump's mocking hand-flapping, not that they would actually mock their children, but do consider their children as 'freaks' others will 'understandably' deride, which rubs off on them genetically or something... That is to say, Trump's take is consistent with their own embarrassment at having produced a less-than-perfect offspring, which of course, just OBVIOUSLY had to be the fault of some evil conspiracy, as, well, how else could their gene pool go astray?
The Vaxxed and anti-vaccintion loons aren't having a good couple weeks:
- This episode of a deranged anti-vax lunatic harassing a pedestrian and the subsequent witch hunt for the poor guy by AoA and Vaxxed Facebook, among others.
BTW - Notice she says she was offered "$1.8 million" for her child's vaccine injury if she would keep quiet? A few seconds later in the vid she brags that she's been to "vaccine court" implying that they were the one's who made the offer.
Look at this vid from her RubeTube channel:
youtube(dot)com/watch?v=C6m0WxGxCSc
Babbling sbout her experience with the "vaccine court":
@10:14 "And you're not going to get compensated when your child's hurt. Good luck. You're not going to get it. We got thrown on a technicality."
Hahaha. So she lost and her case was tossed.
Who the hell offered her the $1.8 million to keep quiet?
Nobody, that's who. She's just another delusional anti-vaccine mommy liar.
Her small batch of vids paints a picture of a very disturbed woman who seems to be suffering from something - bipolar? schizo?
It also paints a picture of a Munchausen Mommy. She said in the harassing vid that her kid was "rendered mentally retarded after his vaccines."
Watch the vids. The poor kid seems pretty normal and bright to me.
In her first vid she seems to be stating that her kid is having gender identity issues and she's blaming vaccines. Someone should alert Dan Olmsted. That's the only looney anti-vaccine conspiracy he seems to reject.
If you watch her vids it looks like the kid is wearing makeup at times.
I wonder if looney mommy wanted a little baby girl but got a boy so she decided to fix the problem.
*******************************************
- Then there are the reports of the CDC protest being chemtrailed including this one:
youtube(dot)com/watch?v=cX7t-bzNeUE
where there is an image of Del Bigtree grinning like a demented loon and pointing at the sky filled with chemtrails airliner contrails.
Khemtrailz! Cripes! It doesn't get dumber or more insane than that.
The leaders of this circus are just as crazy as their followers. No wonder Wakefraud appears at conspiracy/UFO conventions.
*******************************************
- Then there was Ikea kicking the trespassing Vaxxed squatters off their property triggering Polly Tommey to call for a boycott of Ikea.
The anti-vaccine leaders sure don't understand the concept of private property rights. They only understand that their needs and desires trump anyone else's rights.
The Vaxxed loons were outraged that the Ikea manager didn't have the respect to come out and discuss it before kicking them out.
The Vaxxed loons don't stop to think that, first, Polly Tommey didn't have the respect to talk with the Ikea manager before setting up shop on their property.
And now there is this post on the Vaxxed Facebook page:
facebook(dot)com/VaxXed/photos/a.671486382994404.1073741828.669084493234593/770724693070572/?type=3
Under the topic: Where's The Bus?
It is a post relating a response by Ikea to poster Maren Caldwell:
"Maren Caldwell - I contacted IKEA twice and this was their response:
Hello Maren,
Thank you for contacting IKEA.
On October 7th 2016, the group that has produced the film documentary VAXXED attempted to hold a “meet and greet” in the parking lot of the IKEA store in Baltimore. There was a touring bus and a gathering of approximately 30-40 people in the parking lot when the store became aware of the situation around 9pm. Inside the bus they were filming interviews. Our parking lots are private property and this type of gathering is not permitted on our locations without following a process, which did not happen in this case. The store team politely asked the group to leave the property and made it clear that it had nothing to do with their cause. When the group made no attempt to leave, the store called the police to ask for their assistance in removing them. The group had previously been asked to leave a parking lot of the adjacent mall.
We apologize for any inconvenience.
Best Regards,
Marie"
It appears the store did ask them to leave before calling the cops but Polly blew them off.
That seems likely if you've watched the vid of the cops at the RV telling Polly they have to go and Polly initially starts to argue and negotiate with the cops that she should be allowed to, at least, stay until she finishes with the small line of interviews that have been set up.
If she's pulling that stunt on the cops it is very believable that she just blew off the store's request.
She's Polly Tommey! Respect her authority!
Just another example of the drivers of the anti-vaccine clown car lying up a storm.
Not unusual.
The whole anti-vax movement, from top to bottom, is corrupt and insane in a way that most people despise.
I hope fence-sitters can see the sleaze and insanity that they are considering joining.
I think I see this movement devolving faster than the 9/11 Troof movement. Probably because the "leaders": Wakefraud, Bigtree, Tommey are so sleazy they can't keep up the from of at least a little respectability.
This gang may be the stake in the heart for the "movement".
I'm not finding any such cases offhand, but I'm too busy to go PACERing around with the COFC. Remember, she has four "vaccine-damaged children."
So, you were organically raped over psycologically? Be still my beating heart.
In other loonie news, the Canadian dollar is currently trading at .76 US dollars. Those are loons I can support.
#56 Narad,
Yeah, 4 vaccine injured kids is what she claims.
Orac's vid of the harassment involves her talking about her son Mace. The $1.8 million she is talking about in this vid is in regard to her son Mace's case. The vid I referenced is her talking about her son Mace and his "hamburger allergy" and then her trials and travails discovering and trying to get compensation for Mace's "vaccine injury". In fact, in none of her vids does she mention any of her other kids or their "injuries". All her vids are about her son Mace.
He's supposedly "retarded" from a vaccine induced stroke.
He's supposedly "autistic" from vaccines.
In her other vids Mace doesn't appear to be either. He appears to be a bright young kid who is let to run wild. He may be on the spectrum, but he is very high level functioning if he is.
At this point I'm forced to the default position that everything she says is a lie. Mace was never diagnosed with autism except possibly by one or more of her "9 doctors who said Mace was vaccine injured" and who most likely were a witch doctor, 3 chiroquacks, 2 naturopathetics, a shaman, a homeopathetic, and an energy healer. All of them, I'm sure, had cures which they were glad to sell to her.
I also don't believe anyone offered her $1.8 million. She lives in a fantasy world.
All online mommies claim kids with "vaccine damage" - a lot of them claim all their kids are vaccine damaged. When you finally pry some info from mommy it turns out the person who made the diagnosis was... Dr. Mommy who then asked some quacks who were quick to agree with her and offer their services and nostrums.
Her story is complete BS spawned from her delusions until she provides evidence to the contrary.
I feel sorry for her son. Mommy is setting him up for a life of grief when he enters the real world where mommy isn't in charge of the bubble.
Does Polly actually have a Green Card?
I certainly hope they didn't sully the impressive legacy of the Shindigger dancers (e.g., here).
I knew someone like that in Primary School. People like that think they're exceptional. They believe that the rules don't apply to them.
#61 Narad,
Ha. Nice video of a time long gone. Terri Garr was probably 17 in that film? Where's Toni Basil? She was a Shindigger during the same period with T. Garr, IIRC. I hate to reveal I am old enough that I watched it first run.
#62 Julian,
Yep. Their arrogant sense of entitlement because they believe themselves to be "special" demonstrates where they are coming from when it comes to their children.
The rest of humanity are mere proles put on earth to serve their highness's desires.
Add ignorance to the mix and you have a perfect storm of Arrogant Ignorance - Dunning-Kruger to the max.
The Dachelbot is now on the case. Apparently a missed word by a reporter is all that is needed to send the Dachelbot into a spinning frenzy of "cover up, cover up, cover up".
The solution of one commentor to the fact that the media don't write their stories exactly as the denizens of AoA desire is to write the stories prior to the event for the media. True genius.
Hi Gang, bit OT but it's antivax loons, came across this comment on PubMed, in the Taylor et al meta study denying the Autism/ Vax link:
Janet Kern:
"The following studies that showed an association between Thimerosal and the risk of autism were not included in the Taylor et al. (2014) meta-analysis even though they were published within the same time frame as the studies that were included."
Then lists mostly Geier stuff. I'm not so confident to be posting on PubMed and this could do with some elite level snark... anybody up to have a go?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24814559?dopt=Abstract
Yeah, most referenced were Geier crap.
I don't know about this one:
Gallagher CM, Goodman MS. Hepatitis B vaccination of male neonates and autism diagnosis, NHIS 1997-2002. J Toxicol Environ Health A 2010;73(24):1665-1677.
Ah, our good friend across the pond rides to the rescue!
https://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2009/09/17/another-weak-study-proves-…
I'd join and comment, but I'm preparing a shift change briefing.
Yeah thought it would be a bit too early for our bretheren across the pond.
Shall look forward to reading your link ;)
I can't comment to the 'why didn't they include Geier' since I don't have an account for PudMed, but for people who might want to oppose the crazy: the Taylor paper shows they clearly found a lot more papers than were used in the final analysis (start with 1112 studies, end with using only 10). Logically, Geier's work was not used in the final analysis either because it was not relevant for the analysis (unlikely given the subject) or it failed one or more inclusion criteria such as bias or issues with cohort data (very likely given the author and the usual antivaxx 'research' quality).
Sadly, I couldn't find a list of the 1000+ papers that were rejected and why (supporting information perhaps? Is this normally reported in meta analyses?), since if the Geier papers *were* considered but rejected for being crap it would be the perfect response to that comment.
"The solution of one commentor to the fact that the media don’t write their stories exactly as the denizens of AoA desire is to write the stories prior to the event for the media."
They could take out a patent on this idea - maybe call it a "press release" or somesuch.
Sullivan's on this side of the pond, but anyway, Goodman & Goodman by definition didn't meet the inclusion criteria, because it was a cross-sectional design whereas Taylor et al. were looking at case–control and cohort studies. Something tells me that similar considerations apply to the rest.
One has to have a Pubmed-indexed entry to use Pubmed Commons.
Oh, you're good. She's featured in Bruce Conner's short NSFW film "Breakaway," but I don't know whether the Y—be video is the whole thing (Conner's wife was issuing DMCA takedowns for some time; I finally found it at a Korean site).
Fun fact: Toni Basil choreographed the video for "Once in a Lifetime."
Noticed this Facebook post, shared by some AV folks. Mace's Mom definitely a bit off.
Yes, apparently many of them are convinced the CDC poisoned them with chemtrails.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX7t-bzNeUE&sns=em
Sigh.
Well, in the favor of chemtrails, there was such a thing and occasionally, still is.
Unlike the paranoid, it was a preventative measure for spy planes that fly over hostile airspace.
Additives to the fuel prevented a missile from finding the rectum of the engine, which would otherwise spew forth ionized exhaust that'd look like the finger of an almighty proctologist, seeking to examine that orifice.
AKA, on radar, the exhaust would point directly at the tail of said spy plane, quite accurately.
Ask Frances Gary Powers how well that worked out for him.
But, to the paranoid, "they're depopulating us!", which is why our population keeps on *growing*.
To which, I've personally replied, in face to face conversation, "did you put a double helping of moron milk on your stupid flakes this morning? It's showing".
I can't figure out, for the life of me, why the state department won't hire me!
Crap! Nose through yet *another* monitor...
But, yes, I've *actually said that to another human being* that went on and on about chemtrails.
While my towering 5'9" frame didn't impose much, the sheer thunder of my tone and old NCO glare did cow the idiot and said idiot scurried off, to find a new rock to hide under.
I'll suffer a true idiot, they can't help their lack of intellect. I'll never suffer a willful idiot, that's a self-inflicted wound and I never tolerated such things well - be it intentional are carelessness.
That counts when, some 25 years ago, I crushed my own toe with some 10 foot long pipe stock, while thinking to myself, "I'd better be careful, I'm not wearing boots, I'm wearing sneakers) and one of the damnable things bounced off of the stones of the driveway and wrapped my foot around the curb stop, down to the ground and crushed my entire great toe, shattering the distal phalange.
I didn't tolerate that stupidity in myself, I don't tolerate it in others.
But, I did do a highly effective rain dance. It rained like an SOB afterwards.
After my toenail was decompressed (fancy soldering iron, dedicated to the specific task (OK, hot wire device, same bloody thing)) and upon decompression, due to internal bleeding slamming nerves against the nail bed, I managed to mumble, "cold, cold, cold, col...", the collapsed.
A bit of morphine set me straight up.*
*True story. While in agony, I was admiring how the bursal sacs were so well outlined in that entire toe.
As said toe was giving me trouble last night, after squatting to care for my wife and it dislocated, yeah, not fun.
But, I became a safety toe "maniac".
Seriously, that's a very true story.
Believe it or not, I went to a special school to learn to be that stupid.
OK, I didn't. It was a school in and of itself.
Where graduation involved a man doing what actually did look like some kind of rain dance, while cursing in multiple languages at himself, all about his own stupidity.
I'd have generated my own chemtrail, but alas, my sphincters were entirely well closed during the dance. They didn't want to ruin the dance.
Or something.**
**Seriously, it did happen as I said. Complete with rain, doing something that a bag of hammers would've said no to out of common sense, crushed the entirety of my great toe joints and the blasted thing does manage to predict a short term major weather event.
Of course, I have a far more accurate device for that last, a weather radio.
But, it lets me know when to get the umbrella in advance.
It's always nice to know when to get an umbrella to be turned inside out by wind in advance.***
***That's a joke, the last time I had an umbrella turned inside out was as a child. Collapsed around me, many times, I've lived through many major weather events.
End of story there, end up sodden. As I work precisely four miles from my home, that really isn't a big deal.
That doesn't mean I'll not use it for comedic effect. ;)
Good night folks, I'll be here for the next couple of days.
Stop groaning!
And you! Put that trout down!
Oh, for you younglings and a small part of my humor, the latter is covered well here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Whacking_with_a_wet_trout
The rest is entirely true, if more amusingly stated, after I crushed my right great toe.
The reality is slightly more mundane, when I tore the x-ray film from doctor's hand after announcing, "yeah, you fractured it alright", distal phalange split lengthwise,then thrice along its width.
When he decompressed the nail, I did indeed go into shock and "I'm cold" was all I could manage to relate.
From pipe hitting foot to finish, I felt like the village fool.
But, the bloody thing does actually predict major weather changes that I missed.
That allows me to get my umbrella out of the car.
Occasionally. The rest of the time, I get sodden.
There are far superior ways to get sodden...
I dunno, Todd. She could be onto something.
My own wife was slurring speech, collapsed a few times over the past month and finally, while she remained conscious and sounded drunker than a seventh fleet sailor on liberty, she took her blood glucose level and it was on the shoals.
I've jotted off a note to doctor about her insulin dosage, a recent suggestion of passing of a kidney stone and overall late improvement.
Yeah, in the latter case, I'm deadly serious.
Although, the differential was clouded by a badly herniated L5-S1 disc and global cervical canal stenosis, plus addition of opioid analgesics, the current breakthrough pain reliever is now hydromorphone, morphine ER being the current primary.
Add in diabetes that's under somewhat loose control, which was tightening, as A1C was lowering a lot.
Throw a kidney stone, all hell breaks loose. :/
I've been sleeping four hours per night for the past month and a half, lest she take another fall while I'm sleeping.
I'll give it a few days, but I suspect that she'll improve, as she passed a calculi this afternoon and her anorexia has already disappeared.
How many posts have the fine folks at AoA taken down now because they bite off more than they can chew? At least one a year. So much for standing up for what you believe in.
Cowards.
^ For those unfamiliar with Shindig!, although more apropos of the Dylan–Cohen discussion in another thread, this is a mild example of the Shindiggers. They could do a haka/kailao when pressed.
@Narad, perhaps it's my hearing loss, did I miss something?
Yah, I think the differential would include the "medical" marijuana part.
Mace's Mom doesn't know the half of it.
It's _NASA_ that's doing the lithium chemtrails, not the CDC. It's part of the government's secret aerosolized GMO vaccine program.
http://www.snopes.com/nasa-lithium-chemtrails-conspiracy/
Is this also part of the global conspiracy to convince people that the earth is a sphere? If not, I am sorely disappointed.
Even more sensational news: A Friend of the blog has announced a revolutionary synthesis of vibrational harmonics and physics, wherein toxins play their own eerie melodies:
"Over the next few days, I'll be filming and posting the full demonstration of nutritional harmonics. You'll be able to hear the music represented in nutrients like vitamin C, and you'll feel the shuddering side effects of heavy metals* as they reverberate with fear and dread."
"My translation of atomic elements into music is based 100% on mathematics and the atomic masses documented in the Table of Elements...During my live presentation in Dallas, I played sodium fluoride, calcium fluoride, glyphosate and DDT, all of which sent the entire room into a fit of discomfort."
Yep, it's another earth-shattering revelation from the Health Deranger.
*if you're wondering what vaccines sound like, just download a Motörhead live album.
DB @82: When someone says "music based on the periodic table of the elements" the only thing I think of this this:
Bother, that didn't work at all. Let's try again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGM-wSKFBpo
just download a Motörhead live album
NO SLEEP TILL HAMMERSMITH!
Could you be more specific?
The other thread?
I played sodium fluoride, calcium fluoride, glyphosate and DDT, all of which sent the entire room into a fit of discomfort.
Kraftwerk must be petrified about the threat of competition.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmxYMCLDbJg
And Mike Adams thinks people should take him seriously.
I see he is still trying to flog activity with his second-hand ICP. But he has run out of ideas of things to look at. That is the trouble with owning only a hammer - all you can do is pound nails.
While slumming it over at NN, I came across an article from Ethan Huff (Staff Writer) who is telling me that my recent root canal has certainly given me cancer. It is not clear which cancer I have, but I am going to have cancer. As well as anerobic bacterial infections and viruses in my teeth and a weakened immune system and an invasion of Western A Price.
Huff also tells me that I have many miles of root canals. No I kid you not:
So the tooth I had treated had 2 canals of 20 mm and 1 of 18 mm. At this rate I am going to need a mouthful of 28,000 teeth to get to the first mile of canals.
Huff demonstrates his further ignorance by ... well just writing stuff about teeth. What an ignoramus.
Yes. And I'm guessing that the reason for the aforementioned "discomfort" was that everyone in the room realised that he was bonkers.
Whenever someone is about to give me a shot, I start humming "Thunderstruck" by AC/DC.
And talking of Mike Adams, he's finally lost it completely... (You may need to copy and paste the link below)
http://www.naturalnews.com/055702_election_night_rigged_results_media_f…
Wow, did you see the comments over there? Advocating for the violent overthrow of our government, summary executions and more.
I enjoyed them, particularly this one:
"Hillary Rodham Clinton is the antithesis of evil and will kill you and your families with massive taxation, tyrannical forced vaccinations, overtly poisoned gmo and glyphosate, as well as Dicamba food, lead and mercury water, Afghanistan gmo poppy opiates and revoking the second amendment., if she does not cash in on youraborted less crunchy fetus first.
Killary is the new coming of North Korea to your culled life."
I can't get too frightened of people who don't understand what words mean.
Yeah, someone there also commented on it.
Now, the question is, how many are paid Russian trolls, assigned to stir the wingnuts up?
Dicamba food is yummy, goes well with fried placenta.
I got distracted over there by the headline of an article promising that if I drink something (Afghan GMO poppy juice?) I will sleep like a baby. This doesn't sound attractive, seeing that babies tend to wake up crying every few hours.*
*"sleep like a baby" is as counter-intuitive as "work like a dog" (which implies lounging around, napping and stealing goodies from the break room).
Hey, DB! I'm all for working like a dog... :)
@ Rebecca Fisher:
As you may know, I've been writing about woo-meisters for quite a while: I noticed that about the time of the 2008-9 financial crisis, Adams and Null started ranting and raving about the economy and politics.
Over the past several years, they seem to have settled into their own respective ( and despicable) but separate niches that cast hate upon most institutions. Null calls it the 'cult of the expert'. Adams claims specialised knowledge and information about basically everything. Both have expanded their purview into these areas and similarly spread their range through websites and internet radio ( prn.fm, naturalnews, news target etc etc etc). Their beliefs vary ( Null believes in AGW, Adams doesn't; Adams really loves guns, the other one, not so much; Adams loves Trump, Null, Stein)
BOTH - as alt media honchos/ entrepreneurs- despise the mainstream media ( AND SANITY) as they gather the faithful around themselves.
saying that they want a REBELution or something.
Over the past several months, Null's daily woo-fests have become rants and/ or 'investigations into the Clintons and their ( so-called) criminality.
You yourself see what Adams is up to.
Perhaps in a few weeks ( or sooner) they'll be competing with the Donald Network themselves.
It's interesting to see the mainstream discuss some of the loony websites - like Alex Jones, Breitbart- I've been steeped in for a while. Ha!
Fortunately, I am strong and the stupidity and manipulation rolls off of me like water off of a duck.
But then, we're Elites, so of course we'd fell this way.
IIRC, most of Adams' predictions have a long enough time frame built in that most of his fans will forget about them before they're supposed to come to fruition. This one has the benefit of being set for prompt ridicule. (I was particularly amused by the "taking over" of CNN, etc., bit – as though his halfwit band of patriots had the slightest idea how to run a television station, much less distribute it by satellite over a cable network.)
Well, it's been well over 8 years that I've been hearing "Obama's gonna grab our guns", yet no grand confiscation had occurred.
Most of these idiots have no idea what powers and limitations of powers that the POTUS has under the Constitution.
Hell, half of them have convinced themselves that the declaration of independence and the articles of confederation are two sets of documents that are currently still legally in effect.
Interestingly, those same people have no idea what those documents actually say.
I am amused that Adams is now trying to justify his racism:
by claiming to be a person of color [sic]
Adams is a person of color whose descendents [sic] include Africans and American Indians. He self-identifies as being of American Indian heritage, which he credits as inspiring his "Health Ranger" passion for protecting life and nature against the destruction caused by chemicals, heavy metals and other forms of pollution.
*The 80s called, they want their coded racist terms back.
Blockquote fail is, I hope, obvious.
He self-identifies as being of American Indian heritage
And I self-identify with being Marie of Roumania
Almost, but not completely, off topic -
AOA and the Drinking Moms have posted articles linking to this press release that says, in part -
I don't even know anyone who plays a lawyer on TV, but I gotta ask - How can the Director of the CDC tell a court to stuff a subpoena? (Or has a subpoena not yet been issued - it's a little unclear to me.) Could he stop Thompson from testifying if Thompson wanted to, subpoena or not? Is it a case of the Tennessee State Circuit has no jurisdiction over federal employees in another state? Which particular legal point am I missing (I'm sure there are many).
The short answer is yes. I have some, though not all of the documents and will try to write a more detailed explanation for tomorrow.
Basically, there are limits to the ability to force federal employees to testify about their official capacity.
"In a recent letter to the court, Dr. Frieden denied the request to allow Dr. Thompson to testify stating that “Dr. William Thompson’s deposition testimony would not substantially promote the objectives of CDC or HHS.”
It'd be interesting to see the entire letter and not just this purported quote.
A basic answer is probably about all this deserves, but I wouldn't object to a more comprehensive explanation.
Thanks, Dorit. You are a member of a confusing profession.
old joke
/old joke
Here - sorry for the personal plug: http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/cdc-refuses-will…
Fun thread! I actually Googled 'nutritional harmonics' and listened to Miley's "Symphony of Chemistry", and though it promised "For the first time ever, HEAR the harmony of nutrition and the toxicity of heavy metals," there was none of the latter, so i couldn't tell if sodium fluoride, calcium fluoride, glyphosate and DDT rock. But I think DB's right about Motörhead as sonic vaccine. How else could we account for Lemmy's longevity? Another most excellent disease preventative: youtube.com/watch?v=Oz9NZJOkJB0.
Who knew Narad was into Bruce Conner? I shouldn't be surprised though, guy's smart and has got excellent taste. The full TRT of "Breakaway" is 5:16, after is finishes the song and dance forward, it runs it again backwards. The only online copy I could find is at vk.com/video10951839_161908231. It's the only significant Conner piece for which he shot his own images, the rest are 'found footage'. One the Conner estate hasn't caught yet is still on YT at youtube.com/watch?v=1ZOokEZKEps. A Conner retrospective just opened at SF MoMA, and I'm amped to check it out.
Toni Basil's (ne Antonia Carlotta Basilotta) official credit on the "Once In A Lifetime" video was not 'choreographer' but either 'director' or 'co-director w. David Byrne' depending on the source. When MoMA exhibited the clip in 1982, Byrne was actually given credit for the choreography, and I think that may still be the official credit line. Credit lines can be such BS.
Completely irrelevant factoid: I was once in a doomed relationship with someone who had previously been in a relationship with someone who had previously been in a relationship with Toni Basil.
Hmph. (I'm not really "into" Conner, but I know people with excellent taste who know people, and so forth. I'm surprisingly lucky, overall.) This was not the clip from Stop Making Sense, though, right?
It comports with 45 CFR pt. 2. The real issue, if you follow back the links, is that it's Omnibus entrant Rolf Hazlehurst going for a second bite at the apple with a minor modification.
Stubborn blighter, isn't he? He lost in Vaccine Court, then in Federal Circuit Court, then in the Federal Circuit Court of Appeals. I think he's now a true believer. In addition, wasn't the "mercury causes autism" one of the hypotheses rejected in the OAP?
I'm not going to track down the history now, as I'm about to keel over, but if he made it to the Federal Circuit Court of Appeals, "Federal Circuit Court" in the foregoing should be "review by the Court of Federal Claims" (which is really pro forma, i.e., verifying that the Special Master didn't do something completely nuts).
There's only one Federal Circuit Court (they're all courts of appeals). Not too pedantic, I hope.
I have a brief history of it. Cedillo, Hazlehurst and Snyder were the first three cases ruled on in the OAP. All three lost, as we know. All three then went to the Court of Federal Claims to challenge it, again without success. Hazelhurst and Cedillo then each appealed to Federal Circuit Court, and lost.
What I meant was that this is now the fourth time he's tried to get the courts to say that the MMR caused Yates' Autism. He's likely to be as successful as he was the previous three times.
The funny thing is, attorneys do have ethical requirements to abide by, just as medical professionals do.
So, suffice it to say, I'm fairly certain that his legal team told him that he had a snowball's chance on the sun side or Mercury, in full sunlight.
It must be nice having that kind of money to throw a way in billable hours.
Oh well, a fool and his money have many friends on payday.
1) Rolf Hazlehurst is himself a qualified lawyer, I understand. He may be a member of his legal team. In which case the warning about representing oneself in Court would apply.
2) One of the lawyers who sent out the Press Release was Robert F. Kennedy Jr. He's been discussed here before, and is also a true believer.
I would guess his legal team didn't tell him that his odds were terrible.
@Julian, thanks for that. It's late for me, a lot late. As in awakening 20:30 Wednesday night late and still no sleep, due to both a shift change to day and some anxiety over an ortho appointment early morning Friday.
Cortizone shots into a painful joint aren't fun at all, shift changes are disruptive and as this is my "weekend", I can allow some sleep disturbances.
I shouldn't allow a lack of "doing my homework" though, so I apologize and thank you.
That said, while I've self-treated an injury or malady, I also sought peer review or when controlled substances were involved, the concurrence or suggestion of a medical professional.
I never wanted to have a fool for a patient, that fool being myself. ;)
As for Bobby Kennedy Jr, again, bad homework, thanks again and apologies for not doing my own damned homework.
I'm also a bit irritable tonight, significant pain in back and one leg, plus alarming issues, where I quite literally lost the usage of one leg during a major weather front passing. As in, the leg wouldn't abduct at all, could adduct, indeed, it spasmed in that direction.
I'll be rescheduling a doctor's appointment tomorrow, we've passed the insurance company 60 day non-improvement window, with significant disimprovement. It's time for an MRI.
Not a frightening time, annoying time and concerning time. Function did return within the hour or so.
But, it is a bit distracting, on top of a lack of sleep.
But, thanks for the good information.
Even sleep deprived, I do manage to retain information.
Leaving me with, "A fool for a patient and a fool to support his lost cause", weakening both over time.
Good for them for the self-inflicted injuries!
re what JP said.
He claims to be a Native American as does the other loon.
There is thinly disguised racism implied in their words-
"low income, inner city" ( here) and "ghetto" ( @ prn.fm).
The misogyny is less obvious but is there nevertheless: just the idea of (totally non-professional) *male* nutritionists dictating what 'healthy women' should eat and how they should behave as well as less obvious stuff that denigrates frequent female choices -birth control, abortion and role choices. It's there if you look.**
I think that these dudes express a mind set that harkens back to 1950s values and lifestyles DESPITE their claims of modernity and being the next new thing. Traditional families, motherhood and (organic, GMO free) apple pie. So their rebellion is against authorities - including science- that usher in the new. I think that they're ( like the Trumpites) uncomfortable with the rise of minorities as well the majority
( i.e. women) taking its rightful place politically.
The idea of a female president has certainly harshed their respective vibes/ mellow. Today Mike carries on about the liberals NOT having the guns whilst his bros do thus leading to success for the upcoming armed revolution. Mike's prepperism and gun love has been around for a spell.
And they both always carry on so about the elites. They must be jealous of us.
** Oddly enough these fellows then try to sell stuff to women and minorities.
This attitude is common in a lot of "crunchy" corners, which also just so happen to be extremely white, as far as I've noticed. I've heard it hawked as some kind of "fourth wave feminism" or something, but it seems plainly regressive to me. Women in the kitchen cooking "GMO-free apple pie" (yup) and staying home with the kids practicing "attachment parenting" or whatever.
A standing joke, which is close to a truism in our home is, since I retired from things military, it's *my* kitchen. Occasionally, I'll allow my wife to use it.
Now, for regressives, that'd be a hanging offense, save that I hang my old zero targets in the window. As such a primitive mindset group, that gives them pause.
That gives me that which I want most, peace and quiet.
Now, to summon up the energy to prepare some eggplant and turn it into a combination eggplant lasagna dish that I've been planning - on three hours of sleep and insomnia being intentionally induced, as I'm trying to adjust to day shift, after nearly a year of night shift.
Not that there's anything wrong with making apple pie. I might make one tomorrow, as we're currently swimming in apples. (Yay WA!) But I usually go with crisp as it's easier.
@ JP:
For sure.
Interestingly, the anti-vax momsters often display a curious blend of traditionalism papered over with a cartoonish feminism ( Girl Power or suchlike) at sites like TMR and AoA.
I wonder how the anti-vaxxers will vote this time around.
( a few of the sites are cautious because of their charity status but Jake Crosby isn't - see Autism Investigated).
I live about an hour south of an apple growing region that is rife with hippies and hipsters- I usually get along better with the latter. It has become foodie-ville.
In a small village that is slowly re-awakening after a half century of slumber, there is a - wait for it!-
an organic bakery run by a Culinary-Institute trained guy** who creates 'healthy' artisanal wedding cakes, breads and pastry.
It is right across the street from a Tibetan crafts store. There are only about 20 shops but those two are quite representative of the rest.
** he is brilliant -btw-.
@Denice, if you'd be kind enough, feel free to e-mail attach a case of apples.
I'm feeling an applesauce binge coming on. ;)
I've been thinking about doing this.
Mikey is even more unhinged today, and predictably calling for an armed "revolution":
@JP, those people with their rifles are more than welcome to do so, to eventually try to engage MLRS and more.
Talk about a one sided "duel".!
Dorit @ http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/10/17/cdctruth-protest-2016-hara…
Thank you for the clear and detailed explanation.
The anti-vexers have latched on to the idea that the CDC is 'blocking' Thompson from testifying, and you explain the reasons quite clearly. But the money quote, in my opinion is -
That's something that even the anti-vaxers should be able to understand.
And I don't think anyone here would feel it necessary for you to apologize for the personal plug.
@ Narad
No, it's not the clip from Stop Making Sense. That's a concertfilm directed by Jonathan Demme from 1984. It's a studio-shot video with clever use of simple blue-screen effects, made in 1980.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1wg1DNHbNU
When MTV came on the air in '81, there were few videos available from commercial acts, so they screened what they could get, including pieces like Once In A Lifetime which were essentially created as experimental films on miniscule budgets. Another group that benefited form this was Devo, as MTV showed clips of the songs 'Secret Agent Man' and 'Jocko Homo' pulled from Chuck Statler's short film "In the Beginning Was the End: The Truth About De-Evolution" which was shot on 16mm in 1976. The spud lads didn't have Statler include the song 'Mongoloid' – the flip side of 'Jocko Homo' on their first indie 45, but a film using that a soundtrack appeared in 1978, made by... Bruce Conner.'
Yes, I know that; I couldn't really have asked the question otherwise. I was just checking, as the performance itself is also plainly choreographed.
Obviously, I didn't pay enough attention to the "1982" part. (I don't think it came here until 1985, at the Congress Theater.)
Yah, I was there on the afternoon of day 1 – I don't recall whether it was accidental, but I was at the house of a friend whose mom was quite the video buff. The Stevie Nicks one was the first I saw.
Of course, it's not as though the form was novel. One thing I don't recall ever seeing on MTV is the video of "Who Are You,"* which did appear on Don Kirshner's Rock Concert,** IIRC.
I don't really know what to make of this synchronicity, but I'll likely get over it promptly; Dove's "Worried Man Blues" is the only thing of theirs that my head dredges up now and then.
* "Meher Baba M4 (Signal Box)" from the W—dia entry is almost more than I can take at the moment.
** Rather than Burt Sugarman's Midnight Special; the performance of "Play That Funky Music" is a thing to behold.
@ Wrzd1:
D-mm. I tried but the apples didn't fit inside the electrons.
Yeah, I had similar problems. Worse was trying to fix neutrons and protons in the electrons - was a total bust. ;)
@ JP:
You never know!
Is learning stuff ever bad?**
I would think about a few things first:
- are you ready to spend that amount of time working now?
- might it interfere with other plans ( writing, PhD programme, therapy)?
- are you indeed ready to supply your own pants?
It does sound like a valuable experience though.
And hey, you could supply Orac and his minions with tasty treats.
-
** although I have sometimes regretted reading some of the *dreck* I've found in my usual haunts.
Heh, I still have a pair from when Chefwear was based here. They're very gaudy.
But you forgot the whites. And knives. One can only hope that clogs have finally gone out of style.
Given the latest redesign,* I wouldn't have found it otherwise (and I looked previously).
* Still as crufty as ever – took about 3 full minutes to load for me. Twenty trackers + Disqus.
In other news...
Mikey continues today
- he claims a WaPo reporter interviewed him and declared that his "newspaper" had "zero creditability".
Does anyone really think that this might be true?
I don't mean the 'zero credibility' part but that a WaPo reporter would actually waste his or her time with Mikey.
So much dreck so little time.
Mikey is even more unhinged today, and predictably calling for an armed “revolution”:
It must be frustrating for alt-med scammers, and a source of envy, to watch current US politics and see so much money being hoovered up by political grifters. No wonder Mikey wants to climb about the scamwagon.
This is, indeed, a concern that my therapist has brought up. I don't want to try and fail, but it might be worth it to try.
Well, I'm not allowed to be writing or making progress on the PhD while on a leave of absence. I still don't know if I'm going back; I don't even think I'm smart enough to be there in the first place, though Narad just told me I wouldn't have been there in the first place if I wasn't smart. And my advisor called my concerns about getting kicked out were "delusional."
In any case, though, I would need to recover significantly to go back; they don't want a suicidal wreck or a maniac on their hands. It is possible to extend the leave for up to two years...
It would probably interfere with the therapy, though.
Ha! I do have a couple of pairs of pants I could probably wear...
"Physically, you must be able to stand and work for 6 hours, able to lift 50 lbs, able to perform frequent bending and tolerate a hot kitchen environment."
You'd be amazed how many can't withstand that. Those large pots are *heavy*.
That and prep time, it takes a whole lot of chopping to prepare for a meal in a commercial kitchen.
Yeah, I advanced to salad chef, then got a much better paying job, which also had a lot less work involved.
I'll be using my large pot this weekend, gotta make a couple of gallons of pasta sauce up. Making that eggplant lasagna the other day ran me out of sauce.
I'll have to remember to also pick up some parmesan cheese and tofu, ran out of those too (used the tofu in place of ricotta cheese, less gritty and it absorbs the flavor of the sauce well).
JP:
Of course, you're smart enough.
perhaps you're just wondering if the degree is worth the effort or if it's what you really want.
@ Wrzd1:
But but but...
Ricotta cheese is the food of the ( Roman?) gods!
I should know.
Yeah, but I need all of the extra protein that I can get. :)
Hey! I am the Kathy you quoted! LOL I think that is my one and only comment on AoA blog ever. How funny. I am in a group on FB that has a few actual CDC employees in it (people who do research, doctors, etc) and that is what they all specifically stated about the badges. Also, Ginger has been doxing a Dr W, CDC employee and he has been confirmed as on teleconference, therefore NOT the guy in the video. Video guy is likely some poor guy who accidentally wandered into hell and Ms Chirpy voice got too much in his face. Kerra is such a nut! Seriously, she's not playing with a full deck. Great post!
Being doxed is so much fun, getting threats to rape my wife, then kill everyone in my home, even more fun.
So much fun, the former counterterrorism specialist in me came out and I explained how, any attempt on me and mine would be completely reciprocated upon, although the one attempting to do so wouldn't survive the experience of attempting it.
My wife is quite proficient in self-defense and quite a good shot herself. Personally, I tend to gravitate toward quieter weapons - ones with edges.
So, on both side of the doxing equation have those who have points where we're a few fries short of a happy meal.
The difference is, I am a combat veteran.
Badges? We don't need no stinking badges
Who needs a badge for crowd control, when one has a bulldozer? ;)