The Disneyland measles outbreak continues apace, and a woman refuses quarantine

disneyvaccine

Brief Orac follow up note, January 21, 2015: Antivaccine pediatrician "Dr. Bob" Sears responds to his patients' parents' concerns about the Disneyland measles outbreak. Hilarity ensues.

Last week, the self-proclaimed "happiest place on earth" wasn't so happy.

You've probably figured out that what I'm referring to is the latest measles outbreak. Some of you have been talking about it in the comments, and I keep seeing news about it. Finally, I couldn't resist applying a bit of not-so-Respectful Insolence to the whole situation. I realize that some of you might have seen this at a certain loved and hated blog that has become quite popular, there's plenty here to go around, particularly given the involvement of a very old "friend" of the blog, someone who goes way back to 2005. Yes, nearly ten years, dating back to May 2005. (Holy, hell, has it really been that long?) And, yes, there are updates.

Not surprisingly, this outbreak happened in the Los Angeles region, Orange County to be precise. Surprisingly (or perhaps not so much), it happened at Disneyland. I say "not surprisingly" because it's been well-publicized over the last few years that there are pockets of low vaccine uptake and high personal belief exemptions in California, complete with measles and pertussis outbreaks. This is thanks to pockets of affluent, entitled parents full of the Dunning-Kruger effect who think that they can learn as much about vaccines and autism via Google University as pediatricians and researchers who have devoted their entire professional careers to studying them. Of course, these parents are also facilitated by pediatricians who cater to their fears, the most famous of whom is Dr. Bob Sears, whose The Vaccine Book is a very popular, reasonable-sounding (to parents not aware of the antivaccine tropes within) bit of antivax lite, but there is also our old buddy Dr. Jay Gordon and a host of others.

So what happened at Disneyland? On January 7, the California Department of Public Health confirmed seven measles cases:

California Department of Public Health (CDPH) has been notified of seven confirmed cases of measles in patients from five different locations within California it was reported today by Dr. Ron Chapman, CDPH director and state health officer. Two Utah resident cases have also been confirmed and three additional California residents are also suspected to have measles and are under investigation. All confirmed and suspect cases reported visiting Disneyland or Disney California Adventure Park in Orange County, California sometime between December 15 and December 20, 2014.

Based on information from current cases, it is likely that a person infectious with measles was at one of the theme parks on these dates. People can be infectious with measles for nine days. Measles typically begins with fever, cough, runny nose and red eyes and within a few days a red rash appears, usually first on the face and then spreads downward to the rest of the body. Measles is a highly infectious, airborne disease.

By week's end, health officials were reporting a dozen cases and expecting more to appear. Of the total cases thus far, six of the original seven cases were in unvaccinated children. Late Thursday the health department reported:

Orange County health officials confirmed late Thursday that a total of five more people contracted the disease, bringing the countywide total to six cases.

As of the other day, the number of cases had increased to 26 known cases (and probably rising). Measles is one of the most contagious diseases in the world, and it spreads easily among humans. So it is not surprising that, contributing to this outbreak, which now encompasses multiple states, was one woman traveling:

A wave of measles cases traced to Disneyland threatens to spread farther. An unvaccinated California resident infected in the outbreak traveled by plane between Orange County and Seattle-Tacoma International Airport during the holidays, health officials said.

The number of measles cases stemming from the outbreak has risen to 26 and now involves Washington state, Utah and Colorado.

The airline passenger, a woman in her 20s, fell ill after visiting Disneyland in December and became contagious on Dec. 28. She flew from Orange County to Seattle on Dec. 29, stayed with family in Washington's Snohomish County and returned to Orange County on Jan. 3. She wasn't diagnosed until Jan. 8 in California, health officials in Washington state said.

The passenger flew to Seattle on Alaska Airlines Flight 505 on Dec. 29, a Washington health official said. She returned to Orange County on Jan. 3 on Virgin America Flight 1780.

Meanwhile:

A South Pasadena woman's younger sister came down with the measles. Now, federal health officials want her locked down under quarantine, but she is resisting.

Ylsa Tellez is a 26-year-old grad student whose younger sister, 24-year-old Maura Tellez, was one of the confirmed cases of measles caught recently at Disneyland. So far, there have been 26 confirmed cases of measles, but Ylsa is not one of them.

And:

"(They were) saying I need to get vaccinated and I need to be quarantined, otherwise I'm going to go to jail or something, or I'm going to get a misdemeanor," said Ylsa.

Ylsa says she refuses to be a prisoner in her own home despite the possible quarantine order. Ylsa's mother is also defending her daughter.

"It's not nice when my daughter is threatened like this because she's not even sick," said Myrna Tellez.

No, but she's been exposed. The reason to quarantine someone who has been exposed is because that person can be infectious before symptoms appear. That's why quarantine is recommended for the incubation period, until health officials can be sure that Tellez doesn't actually have the measles and is no longer contagious. One comment I saw about this issue (several comments, actually) questioned why we quarantine someone like Tellez but not Ebola patients. When I see a question like this, I want to respond: How is this thing not like the other? Measles is incredibly contagious through respiratory contact. In contrast, Ebola is not. It requires close personal contact with infected bodily fluids. Quarantine can stop the spread of a disease like measles; for Ebola it's a lot more dicy.

In fact, I had never really thought of it before, but a theme park is an excellent incubator for an outbreak of a disease as highly infectious as the measles, particularly a theme park like Disneyland. While many theme parks tend to attract mainly from their region, theme parks like Disneyland, Disneyworld, Universal Studios Orlando, and the like, attract visitors not just from their region but from all over the world. That includes countries where there are ongoing measles outbreaks and high percentages of unvaccinated children. Add to that a location in a state where there are populations of children with low MMR uptake who visit Disneyland too, and the recipe for an outbreak is there. Over the Christmas holidays, it finally happened.

I've mentioned antivaccine and antivaccine-sympathetic physicians in southern California before. It's not surprising that the most prominent are running like the wind from news of the Disneyland outbreaks.

For example, given that he's the foremost seemingly "reasonable" promoter of antivaccine pseudoscience, it's not surprising that Dr. Bob Sears is once again feeling the heat, as well he should. You might recall that, in response to previous outbreaks in southern California, Dr. Bob let loose with a rather despicable couple of posts to his Facebook page, in which he expressed vexation with parents who, rightly concerned about the measles outbreak, were apparently deluging his office with calls of concern and asking if they should get their children vaccinated. His first response to them was basically a highly unprofessional rant entitled "Measles Epidemic...Not!" and boiled down to, in essence, “get the vaccine if you’re worried, but there’s no real reason to worry,” a complete abdication of his professional responsibility as a pediatrician. He also downplayed the significance of the measles outbreak in a fashion completely unbecoming a pediatrician (or physician of any kind). Basically, Dr. Bob’s message was: Don’t worry, be happy, and, if you’re worrying and not happy, get the vaccine. Just don’t bother me about it anymore. Oh, and you nasty pro-science vaccine supporters (whom he described as "mandatory vaccine militants") out there are big meanies for pointing out that I'm irresponsible and antivaccine.

So great was the heat Sears felt, even from his own "vaccine-averse patients," that he felt obligated to post a follow-up. And so he did in a Facebook post entitled "Orange County Measles Epidemic . . . Not (yet, anyway)!" This time, the message, also highly unprofessional, boiled down to, "Don’t worry, be happy, and if you’re worrying and not happy get the vaccine. Just don’t bother me about it anymore." Oh, and "I'm giving informed consent." The problem, as we've documented many times here, is that Dr. Bob and his fellow antivaccine activists don't give informed consent. They provide "misinformed consent" that vastly inflates the risks of vaccines, attributes nonexistent risks to them (such as autism; more on that later), and minimizes the benefits of vaccines.

This time around, Dr. Bob appears to have learned a lesson from his previous crybaby outbursts. He's managed to keep a tighter rein on his petulance. Last Thursday, he wrote a post entitled "Measles Makes a Stop at Disneyland". His tone is much more measured, but underneath lies the same old attitude, in particular his downplaying the seriousness of the measles. Indeed, after acknowledging that the measles can be "miserable," well, here's how Dr. Bob put it:

The bad news - although I make light of people's tendency to panic unnecessarily, measles is no laughing matter for those who are exposed to one of these nine cases. Although most cases pass harmlessly in the long run, it is a miserable week. Severe complications are very rare, thankfully. But moderate complications, like pneumonia, can occur. It can also be more severe for infants and for pregnant moms and for immunocompromised people. Our hearts go out to any of these high-risk people who are exposed. But most complications are manageable. So, it is a worry for exposed people, I know. But for the public at large, we should just go about life as usual. For anyone exposed to those nine, you are being managed by your doctor and the health department.

As with all previous measles outbreaks, there's no reason to panic. Here is some info to know:

If vaccinated with one dose of MMR, you have a 95% chance of being immune. If two doses of MMR, 99% chance. But this isn't perfect. As you will read in the link, one of the cases was fully vaccinated.

Make light of people's tendency to panic? A more accurate way of saying it would be that Dr. Bob heaped scorn on people's concerns, not just once but twice. Still, at least he acknowledges the potential complications, but even then he can't resist downplaying their seriousness. Pneumonia a "moderate complication"? No, it's a serious complication that very frequently requires hospitalization. I suppose it's a minor victory, though, that he acknowledges that the MMR is highly effective, particularly when multiple doses have been received, but one still can't help but note that Dr. Bob had to harp on the fact based on information available at the time that one of the cases was fully vaccinated.

Meanwhile, I had an exchange with our old buddy Dr. Jay Gordon on Twitter, based on this Tweet:

Of course, the CDC recommends that children receive their first dose of the MMR vaccine between age 12 and 18 months. So what's this with Dr. Jay's obfuscating? People on Twitter wanted to know:

Dr. Jay responded:

To which I responded:

Dr. Jay responded:

Which wasn't an answer. Finally, after more pestering, he said:

And:

So, as has beenobserved before, Dr. Jay won't give the MMR (or, it would seem, any vaccine) unless the parent badgers him to do it. Basically, like Dr. Bob, he washes his hands of the decision (and therefore responsibility) to vaccinate, justifying it by saying he's just letting the parents choose. The problem is that he's "letting them choose" based on misinformed consent, in which his copious statements expressing "concern" about vaccines, invoking the "toxins" gambit, and likening vaccine manufacturers to tobacco companies, as he states unequivocally that vaccine cause autism.

Not coincidentally, after Dr. Jay was cornered on Twitter, he had a couple of new posts on his blog to justify his "concern" for vaccinating children under three. First, he referenced the conspiracy-laden "#CDCWhistleblower" manufactured scandal and referred to the original paper by DeStefano et al. to justify his concern about vaccinating children under three. As I explained in three lengthy posts, neither that study, Brian Hooker's now-retracted paper, nor William Thompson's conscience tortured over fairy dust, show that the MMR vaccine causes autism when given before age 3. Dr. Jay clearly misunderstands the science.

Dr. Jay's second post is entitled "The MMR is not controversial because of Wakefield", a title that almost destroyed my keyboard, as I was foolishly taking a sip of my Sunday morning coffee when I first read it. Key gems:

The vaccine is best given later because it can cause large side effects in a small percentage of kids when given at 12-15 months. Parents’ testimony, the above CDC publication and much more supports this conclusion.

Dr. Jay provides no evidence to support this and no citations, but this is of a piece with what Dr. Jay contributed to the response to the earlier measles outbreaks in southern California. His letter to his patients basically echoed Dr. Bob, saying, "If you would like the MMR vaccine, feel free to get it."

He then concludes:

When we coerce parents into vaccinating their children younger than they feel comfortable doing, we diminish their confidence in their doctors and compromise our ability to continue the dialogue about vaccines and all aspects of their children’s care. If one really cares about herd immunity–and I do–respecting parents’ decisions is crucial.

Of course, a huge part of "respecting parents' decisions" is to give the parents accurate scientific and medical information, rather than antivaccine fear mongering. If parents' pediatricians say or imply that vaccinating (or vaccinating before a certain age) is dangerous when it's not, the parents will likely believe it, particularly if they are predisposed to believe bad things about vaccines. Dr. Jay, whether knowingly or unknowingly, presents a slanted case to his patients' parents, thus making it highly unlikely that they will agree to the MMR before age 3. Of course, if Dr. Jay doesn't even offer it before age 3 and has to be pummeled by pro-vaccine parents into giving the vaccine earlier, then very few of his patients will get it before age 3. Parents who have to badger their child's pediatrician to vaccinate will pretty quickly realize that this is not the pediatrician for them and find another who vaccinates according to the CDC schedule. Dr. Jay's patients are thus self-selected to be vaccine-averse, and he caters to that. After all, he is well known as Evan's pediatrician (Jenny McCarthy's son) and has even written the foreword of one of her books.

Unfortunately, the problem of pediatricians who are either antivaccine, antivaccine-sympathetic, or have come to cater to vaccine-averse parents is a huge problem in California. There are, not surprisingly, pediatricians who aren't as famous as Dr. Bob Sears or Dr. Jay Gordon contributing to this problem. They are misleading parents and catering to the scientifically-unfounded fears of others.

Meanwhile, VaxTruth.org posted a highly misinformation- and fallacy-laden response to the Disneyland measles outbreak, complete with one of the most intellectually-dishonest antivaccine tropes out there, the infamous "vaccines didn't save us" trope. It was coupled, of course, with a "What, me worry?" trope in which the writer did everything she could to downplay the seriousness of the measles. I'll give you an example:

My friend Dawn wrote a great article called Putting Measles Into Perspective, which was published here on VaxTruth. In her article, Dawn points out that prior to the availability of the measles vaccine, which was licensed in 1963, the number of yearly measles deaths in the U.S. was approximately 450.

See? No big deal. Dawn tells us. It's just 450 deaths of children that could be prevented with a vaccine. Actually, those deaths were prevented with the vaccine, along with 3 or 4 million cases of measles. What she also fails to mention is that, before the measles vaccine, 48,000 were hospitalized and 4,000 developed encephalitis. If you want the attitude of antivaccinationists writ large, here it is: Children dying doesn't matter, at least not if they die of vaccine-preventable diseases. I mean, really. 43,000 people a year died in car crashes back then! A mere 450 deaths a year is nothing compared to that! She even says, "a 0.015% mortality rate among measles infected people is just not very scary." Apparently, neither is the suffering of 4 million children, as long as it's "natural."

In fact, VaxTruth goes one better than invoking all sorts of fallacies to claim that measles isn't a serious disease. Marcella Piper-Terry goes on to say that measles is actually good for you. (You remember Piper-Terry, don't you? She's the one who likened the act of vaccination to rape—and meant it.) Between this VaxTruth.org and the other two, there are so many lies that it might require another post to deal with. Or deconstructing the fallacies in her posts could be left as an exercise for the interested reader. (Feel free to have at it in the comments below!) To give you a taste, however:

Where else have we heard that measles infection might be a good thing? Oh! That’s right… from CNN!

Yep! You heard it right! Measles virus conquers cancer! Of course, modern cancer researchers are using a modified vaccine-strain of the measles virus, but if you listened closely to the CNN video, you might have heard about the boy from Uganda whose cancer went into spontaneous remission after he got the measles. The REAL measles.

Of couse, what Piper-Terry neglected to mention was that this took an utterly enormous dose of virus and only worked in one person out of the six in which it was tested.

Later in the article, Piper-Terry cites the hideously bad work by Theresa Deisher, the one who's been trying to "prove" that fetal DNA in vaccines causes autism. It doesn't. Add to that a citation from a 1959 BMJ article in which British primary care physicians discuss their experience with measles cases that year and don't report severe cases. Of course, the numbers each saw were small; so it's not surprising that they didn't see any cases of encephalitis or any deaths.

But back to Disneyland. Peter Lipson pointed out, Orange County is antivaccine central in California, home to Dr. "Bob" Sears and a host of antivaccine-friendly or -sympathetic physicians who pander to antivaccine fears and even spread some of their own. Meanwhile, as I discussed a while back, there was recently a decent Japanese study that failed to find a link between the MMR vaccine and autism. Also hot off the presses in 2015, there's a very large study published in Pediatrics examining the Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) for reports of adverse events due to MMRV (the MMR plus varicella vaccine combined) in 123,200 children and MMR + V (MMR plus varicella vaccine, given as separate injections) in 584,987 children. It's a study that Skeptical Raptor turned me on to, given that I didn't see anything in the news about this either.

The study found no statistically significant increase in the risk of the following adverse events: anaphylaxis (severe allergic rection), idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura (an autoimmune condition attacking platelets), ataxia, arthritis, meningitis/encephalitis, acute disseminated encephalomyelitis, and Kawasaki disease. No relationship was found between the two MMR-based vaccines and increased risk of any of these conditions. Not only that, but for some outcomes, the number of events was so low that the risk was minimal and approaching zero. Autism was not an adverse event examined, but the VSD has been mined again and again looking for correlations between vaccines and adverse neurodevelopmental outcomes, and none have been found, at least not by scientists who were not explicitly antivaccine.

Sadly, the myth that the MMR causes autism, a myth "pioneered" (if you can use that word) by Andrew Wakefield, lives on. One of the areas in the US where a lot of people believe that myth (or at least believe it enough to eschew the MMR vaccine) is southern California in general, but Orange County in particular. Add to that travelers from all over the US and all over the world come to Disneyland every year, it's actually rather amazing that there hasn't been an outbreak there before.

And sadly it's not just measles, either.

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Is that supposed to be new? I got what was my 4th dose of measles vaccine when I attended grad school in a new state and didn't bring my childhood records... in 1990. It might not have been MMR specifically, but I also suspect colleges don't care if your vaccines were given all in one or as multiple shots.

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 14 Jan 2015 #permalink

One comment I saw about this issue (several comments, actually) questioned why we quarantine someone like Tellez but not Ebola patients.

Funny enough, I would have had the opposite question:
Why did people insist on forcing a quarantine on the medical personnel coming back home from Ebola country, but someone with a possible measles infection should have a free pass?

A measles is not as lethal as an Ebola infection, granted, but that's no reason to spread it around. Spending one week in bed with maybe a trip to the hospital may be a mere inconvenience, to quote a Thinking Mom, but that's one tribulation we can go without.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 15 Jan 2015 #permalink

The "too soon" arguments are hilarious to me. My son was born at 25 weeks gestation, and although we adjust for his prematurity for all his developmental milestones, he gets his vaccinations on the schedule based on his age since birth. There were a few delays on his first round in the NICU (if I remember correctly, he was going through a bout of pneumonia at the time), but he got his first shots when he was around, or maybe even less than, 4 pounds.

The 2 vaccinations I was most relieved for him to get were his first pertussis shot and his first MMR. We're lucky in that he's escaped many complications of prematurity, but he has some residual lung issues that he basically has to outgrow. Although it's not a vaccination, I'm also very relieved he was eligible for Synagis this winter.

By Elizabeth (not verified) on 15 Jan 2015 #permalink

Let's see:
1) Disney is likely losing serious business with this outbreak.
2) When this type of thing happens, the best order of business is to figure out how to keep it from happening again.
3) The anti-vaccine movement has played no small role in this outbreak.
4) A large corporation might connect the dots between the two.

How did that old curse go: "May you live in interesting times, may you gain the interest of those in power, and may all your dreams come true."

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 15 Jan 2015 #permalink

It's interesting that Dr. Jay would choose to delay vaccination until 3+, when there is evidence that delaying the first dose of MMR can increase the risk of febrile seizures. Granted, the study showing this cut off at 23 months, so the risk may decrease sometime after this period, but in anti-vaccine land, isn't the merest suggestion of risk enough to say it's too risky?

A. Some of these people seem to be trying very hard to create a tort test case of either infecting another with a preventable disease or suing a doctor for negligent medical advice.

B. I'm trying to remember where I've read that 6 out of the 22 cases so far have been hospitalizes. That doesn't read as not serious to me.

C. It's worrying. Thanks for this post.

By Dorit Reiss (not verified) on 15 Jan 2015 #permalink

While Jay Gordon's "thoughts have changed" (this appears to be part of an effort to portray his critics as stubbornly dogmatic), his overall antivax blather remains remarkably consistent.

Speaking of coffee spewing-inducing hilarious mischaracterizations, NN's Mike Adams has now referred to Sherri Tenpenny as a "brilliant scientific researcher" under siege by the Australian "vaccine mafia".

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 15 Jan 2015 #permalink

Ylsa says she refuses to be a prisoner in her own home despite the possible quarantine order. Ylsa’s mother is also defending her daughter.

“It’s not nice when my daughter is threatened like this because she’s not even sick,” said Myrna Tellez.
While how quarantine is enforced can certainly be discussed, I often read unvaccinated people saying that if they fell sick, they would willingly quarantine themselves (as if it was that simple). Here we see it's not that simple.

Another factor which might make it easy to spread measles in a theme park : the waiting lines where you are pretty close to one another for a long period ?

@LouV - it is a standard line in the anti-vax playbook, that the "would be happy to quarantine themselves if they were ever exposed or sick."

As you point out, once that is put to the test, the anti-vaxxer routinely fails.

I'm not sure how they're handling it in Orange County, but in this county the state's attorney gets a court order for quarantine and you have no choice. We've not had to do it recently, but the procedure includes a cop car parked outside your house.

LouV, the woman who has been asked to self-quarantine was exposed to a confirmed measles case. She is not vaccinated against measles and refuses MMR vaccine. She will either self quarantine or a court order will be issued. She might also face criminal penalties, according to California State law:

http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/state-quarantine-and-isolation-stat…

Shay, I don't recall a measles outbreak where an unvaccinated contact refused self-quarantine, but I do recall active TB cases who refused treatment and quarantine in a hospital, being picked up by police officers and brought to the County hospital with a guard 24/7 until three consecutive sputum specimens were negative for TB bacilli.

“It’s not nice when my daughter is threatened like this because she’s not even sick,” said Myrna Tellez.

(Emphasis mine)

I don't think anti-vaxxers really understand what the word "quarantine" means or how it is applied.

From its very origins (Italian, I believe, although the concept is much older), where a ship would be held in the harbor for 40 days before making landfall to prevent carrying any onboard diseases into the city, quarantine has been about holding people who *appear* healthy in order to make sure they are *actually* healthy before loosing them on the public. That's pretty much the whole point of quarantine. If you wait until they start showing symptoms of disease, it's usually way too late to isolate them.

By Shadowflash (not verified) on 15 Jan 2015 #permalink

"She's not even sick..."

There, dear friends, is why the way we do quarantines in the United States (and many other parts of the world) don't work. It's not that we can't hold someone against their will. It's not that we shouldn't. It's just that both sides refuse to talk to each other in a sensible way. They scream past each other.

The health officer themselves should go to this woman's home, explain measles thoroughly (bring drawings if necessary) and explain to her why the quarantine order can and will be issued. Included in that explanation would be the fact that antivaxxers have done their best to reduce herd immunity, and more people are at risk of measles (and bad outcomes from measles) than ever before.

Issuing quarantine orders from an office and to an uninformed public is a perfect way to make sure those orders are not followed.

My blood's boiling at the fact that some eejits are thinking that the risk of pneumonia ain't no big thing. Pneumonia killed my father a week ago (so, yeah, I've got baggage) when he was doing so damn well post-leukemia-treatment, and two members of his extended family (not in the same locale) have died of it in the past month and two MORE have barely avoided hosphospitalization (2015 is already fired).

If a parent thinks that the risk is no biggie, send 'em my way. I've a few very pungent words for them...

Johanna -- so sorry to hear that. My condolences.

By palindrom (not verified) on 15 Jan 2015 #permalink

I can understand why somebody would be reluctant to quarantine herself. Aside from the inconvenience of being housebound, there is the real risk for many Americans of losing a job. There are solutions to that problem, but they are political.

But to persist in not vaccinating yourself or your kids...ugh. Unless there is a medical reason for not doing it, the choice is between a few needle pricks on the one hand, and several days of serious illness (possibly requiring hospitalization), or worse, on the other hand. Oversimplified, yes, but that's what it works out to for most people.

Not that I'm holding my breath, but maybe it's time for licensing authorities in California (and other states) to pull licenses from pediatricians who routinely don't get their patients vaccinated (medical contraindication would be the only allowed defense). It certainly violates any reasonable standard of care.

By Eric Lund (not verified) on 15 Jan 2015 #permalink

Johanna, I'm so sorry to hear what you are going through and condolences to you and your other family members.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 15 Jan 2015 #permalink

@Lou and @Lawrence: more evidence that anti-vaccine activists will not really act to reduce exposure is in the first two cases in the Phillips case, recently decided by the Second Court of Appeals - where two families whose children qualified for New York's religious exemptions attacked the decision to exclude their children from school because of chicken pox cases in that school.

@Eric Lund: I agree that I do understand why someone would not be happy about quarantine. Does anybody know whether there are arrangements to cover salaries in that situation? In other countries, there would probably be protections against firing, but the U.S. isn't great on that, either. So I see the problem - and agree quarantine laws should come with salary coverage and job security guarantees, much like jury service. They're still needed and important.
And she's a grad student. If she can't quarantine herself without severe repercussions I'd be surprised - and exposing fellow students to the disease would also be problematic.

By Dorit Reiss (not verified) on 15 Jan 2015 #permalink

@Johanna:

I hear you! The one year I skipped the flu vaccine (yes, I know it was stupid) I got the full blown flu. It turned into pneumonia. I was not hospitalized, but I should have been. I was very sick, and almost choked to death on a mucous plug. It scared the living daylights out of me; I've gotten the flu shot every year since (and the one year I got it late in the season, I got the flu and pneumonia again).

It is so frustrating listening to people blather on nonsense about vaccines. They save lives. They save money: people who don't get sick, or their kids don't get sick, are able to go to work!

Employers would save far more money by encouraging vaccination of workers and their children, and allowing workers to take time off when they or their kids are sick. They save money in lost productivity in the long run.

@Eric: I was thinking the very same thing. I can't understand why the Medical Boards aren't cracking down on this kind of crap.

@Dorit: re the grad student

I can't imagine her professors refusing to work out a solution to allow her to turn in assignments online, and make up missed classes. I would, in a heart beat. I once offered to allow a student to take her final exam online in the hospital when she was hospitalized due to renal failure, or to schedule a makeup exam (she was due to graduate and wanted to test). I allowed another student to take her exam online when she was still in the hospital after having a baby (another student who insisted on testing on time).

It can be done.

Johanna I'd like to extend my condolences for the losses of your family members.

- lilady

" I think the MMR risk is minimized by waiting until age three." Jay Gordon, MD

The first thing he identifies as a source for this belief is "Parents testimony", which however represents anecdote --not evidence.

So, Dr Jay, should you drop by to check out the comments here (as you've done in the past) can I ask you to answer a couple questions?

Do you also beleive that random human being are routinely been abducted by extraterrestrials piloting advanced space craft upon which they are subjected to medical experimentation, which for some reason feature all but mandatory protoscopic exams?

If despite the large number of abductee testimonials you do not, could you explain by what rational basis you pick and choose which collections of anecdotes you'll elcet to consider as constituting 'evidence' and which collections you will reject as being something far less than evidence?

Where does Dr Jay get " safer to give it after three years"?

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 15 Jan 2015 #permalink

@ Johanna:

I'm sorry to hear that.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 15 Jan 2015 #permalink

@Denice Walter

Probably from a misreading of the Hooker paper and the whole CDCWhistleblower nonsense. Of course, he ignores that the Hooker paper cut off before age 3, so he has no real data upon which to base his conclusion that it is safer.

@ Todd W.:

Thanks. That's what I thought.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 15 Jan 2015 #permalink

Not that I think there is still measles floating around Disneyland or anything (or maybe there is again? Maybe it's the hot new destination for "measles parties" or whatever) but if I'm vaxxed but pregnant, then I should be covered, right? I know I had to stay away from a relative with shingles recently...

@Denice Walter

Just my speculation, of course. We'd need him to confirm that.

@Allie P

You're probably fine. The best thing to do, though, would be to ask your doctor.

As a child in the 1960s, I never received the MMR because of certain, life-threatening allergies I had. I had all the other necessary vaccinations, but not that one.

At the age of 22 years, I contracted German measles from a neighbour's child who's parents did not "believe" in vaccinations. I nearly died. And, just over Christmas this year (I'm 53 years old now), I got the mumps from my youngest nephews, who's mother is very anti-vax. I had several days of agonising pain. It was horrible.

So, I would like to ask those parents who refuse to vaccinate, WHY on earth would you risk your child's life like that? And why would you allow your child to go through such pain when it could be so easily avoided?

By Selena Wolf (not verified) on 15 Jan 2015 #permalink

Furious at the woman refusing quarantine. What I say is this: If you want to practice 19th century medicine (eschewing vaccination), be prepared for 19th century consequences (quarantine).

By NH Primary Car… (not verified) on 15 Jan 2015 #permalink

The Measles count in CA is up to 28:
http://www.cdph.ca.gov/HealthInfo/discond/Pages/Measles.aspx

And it will probably be rising. I don’t think these folks have been counted yet, although their visit to a San Diego area urgent care center shut the facility down for several hours:
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2015/jan/14/measles-rees-stealy-sharp/

I do not understand how someone like Dr Jay or Dr Bob can stand back and fail to see his role in this outbreak.

“It’s not nice when my daughter is threatened like this because she’s not even sick,” said Myrna Tellez.

This is what we would call a teachable moment. It's the perfect opportunity to try to educate Ms. Tellez about how if someone is infected with measles, they can be contagious several days before they show any signs or symptoms of being sick. It is all well and good to stay home once you are visibly sick, but that does not help everyone you come in contact with in the days leading up to the appearance of symptoms.

So I see the problem – and agree quarantine laws should come with salary coverage and job security guarantees, much like jury service. They’re still needed and important.

I have a problem with this as wilfully rejecting a prevention such as vaccination should not be rewarded with a paid holiday. On the other hand, I'd hate to see those who can't be vaccinated or some other valid reason having to be quarantined lose their jobs or pay just for dumb luck. Jury duty is just that and I don't see the comparison.

This is going to provide an interesting exercise in just how conscientious these anti-vaxxers really are in accepting the consequences of their actions.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 15 Jan 2015 #permalink

Where does Dr Jay get ” safer to give it after three years”?

Rectally of course.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 15 Jan 2015 #permalink

Of course, Dr Jay states he had abandoned the recommended vaccine schedule by 1980 and that he did so due to parental anecdotes that they'd noticed changes in their children following vaccination, long before DeStefano published (2004) and Hooker tortured the DeStefano's data set (2014).

I nailed Dr. Jay several years ago...long before Hooker's now retracted paper was published. Too bad no one took screen shots of Dr. Jay's old website.

On that website he stated:

- I don't recommend the MMR vaccine until four years of age.

- I don't give varicella vaccine until 10 years of age...if a child hasn't contracted the "natural disease"

- Prevnar vaccine is too new for me to recommend.

When I called him out for his utterly-lacking-in-science opinions and suggested to him that he provide links to the California Department of Pubic Health or the CDC/AAP websites for accurate information on his website, he then put up some scary bogus sh!t from whaleDOTto.

Still the same old Jay, who is still listed on Dr. Bob Sears website as a "Vaccine Friendly Doctor" (code for doctors who rely on "mommy/daddy intuition" and who do not adhere to the AAP Standards of Care for timely and complete vaccinations for their member physicians).

(Sometimes a typo leads to some funny comments)

"When I called him out for his utterly-lacking-in-science opinions and suggested to him that he provide links to the California Department of Public Health or the CDC/AAP websites for accurate information on his website, he then put up some scary bogus sh!t from whaleDOTto."

<.Iquarantine laws should come with salary coverage and job security guarantees, much like jury service

Laws may differ in your state, but while you are protected from job loss due to jury duty (under contempt of court penalty for your employer), not all employers in all states will cover your lost salary. Where I live, jurors are paid a nominal amount per day of service, plus a mileage allowance for those who do not live in the same municipality as the courthouse. The nominal amount is well below minimum wage.

The sensible policy would be for the employee to use sick leave to cover the quarantine period. But too many Americans get no sick leave at all, and of those who do, many don't have enough to cover that scenario. And yes, there is potential for abuse by people who voluntarily refuse vaccination. OTOH, there are people who legitimately cannot be vaccinated, as well as diseases (such as Ebola) for which there is no vaccine. People in those two categories definitely don't deserve to risk job loss over possible exposure to some disease.

By Eric Lund (not verified) on 15 Jan 2015 #permalink

@Eric Lund: I completely agree with all you said.

By Dorit Reiss (not verified) on 15 Jan 2015 #permalink

I want to give every anti-vaxxer a copy of one of my favorite books from when I was a kid. It shouldn't offend; it's a classic children's book by perhaps the greatest children's book writer of all time: Doctor Seuss. The book is the "The King's Stilts". Like other early works of his, it's in prose rather than verse, and like the two Bartholemew Cubbins books, it's about a little boy and a king. It's a great story about sticking to your guns, about power plays, about the importance of play, about the importance of duty, and about loyalty. But it also features a measles quarantine scene. ;-)

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 15 Jan 2015 #permalink

So I see the problem – and agree quarantine laws should come with salary coverage and job security guarantees, much like jury service. They’re still needed and important.

When we started our Ebola planning in October, we rung in the Red Cross and the woman who runs the parish nurse network in the county, just to make sure that if by some twist of fate we wound up having to quarantine someone, they would still be fed and at least get help with getting some of the bills paid. Funny how churches in this part of the country are usually on the forefront of response when something bad happens.

(and yes, in case you're wondering, that was a dig at PGP).

I don’t give varicella vaccine until 10 years of age…if a child hasn’t contracted the “natural disease”
I contracted chicken pox at 32 from a 5-year old daughter of a co-worker. This was a few years before the vaccine became available. We were on a business trip, the girl felt cranky but the mother didn't know what it was. I spent a fair amount of time with them, of course had I known the daughter had chicken pox, I'd have run. I was miserable for a week, coughing with low grade fever for two weeks. But... I'd never know if it's related and of course 'correlation isn't causation' but soon after I had my first delay in periods which have been regular as clockwork before. The delays got bigger and bigger until I was diagnosed with premature ovarian failure some years later. But the problems started soon after I had chicken pox. It may well be a coincidence - POF is sufficiently rare and more often than not no reason is clear, but some articles do mention possible connection.

Whether or not it related, I sure hope vaccine had been available back then - then both I and very likely the little girl (the mother was NOT among the anti-vaccine crazies and the girl had all recommended vaccinations) would've been vaccinated and there is a chance I'd had a baby as well as normal level of hormones for many more years.

Yep. AV'ers scream, "But, but we'd stay home if we were at risk."

Yet when push comes to shove, "OMG WHY U PICK ON ME?!?!?!?"

IMO if she's not willing to self-quarantine, incarcerate her in solitary. Then she'll have something to b!tch about.

Jay Gordon pulls his "no MMR vaccine until age 3 years" from the same place that Bob Sears pulls his made up "vaccine schedule"--from their arses.

By Chris Hickie (not verified) on 15 Jan 2015 #permalink

@Johanna:

(so, yeah, I’ve got baggage)

We all have baggage. Some of us are just more honest about it than others. I'm extremely sorry to hear about your recent losses.

I think Orac drew one unsupported conclusion:
"Dr. Jay clearly misunderstands the science."

I think Dr. Jay understands the science perfectly well.
I think Dr. Jay intentionally misrepresents the science.
I think Dr. Jay's vaccine practice is quackery.

I think Orac and some of the Minions are often too prone to take quacks at their own word regarding what they believe.
I think quacks rarely say anything they believe about what they sell.
I think quacks are in the business of selling belief.
I think Dr. Jay believes in his accountant.

I don't think anyone in the advertising department for Pharmaceuticals, Inc. believed Geritol cured tired blood, or that tired blood was actually A Thing. I know that in 1956, the tent-pole of Geritol's advertising strategy was sponsorship of the TV game show Twenty-One . The premiere episode of Twenty-One was conducted as a straight-up honest quiz. The day after it aired Pharmaceuticals, Inc. called producer Dan Enright, complained the show had been boring, without drama, and demanded "in no uncertain terms" that the show be spiced-up. From which point on, Twenty-One became a scripted drama, with carefully cast protagonists and antagonists acting out archetypal conflicts over cleverly plotted narrative arcs — masquerading an authentic contest, until disgruntled performer Herbert Stempel blew the whistle.

Dr. Jay seems to have taken some classes at the Turdblossom school, as there would seem to be no other way to account for the complete inversion of sense in his litlle HuffPo comparison of vaccines to cigarettes Orac mentioned above:

It took fifty years before the courts finally acknowledged that cigarette smoking causes cancer. There were billions of dollars at stake. The dozens of court decisions that there "was no proof" were supported by physicians, expert witnesses of all types and hundreds of millions of dollars spent on attorneys. Experts and doctors alike stated over and over again that we need not continue studying this issue because there was just no proof. Let me state very simply, vaccines can cause autism. No real scientist would encourage us to stop studying this possibility...
If Dr Offit had been a witness back then, might he have suggested that people could smoke 10,000 cigarettes? Children's lives are at risk and we can't allow this whitewash.

Orac nailed the gist of this ridiculous turd in the post linked in the OP:

[condensed/edited] If you’re going to compare the claim that vaccines cause autism with the science that shows that smoking causes all manner of health problems, it is the antivaccine advocates who line up with the tobacco companies. The science at the time showed a strong link between cigarette smoking and disease, but tobacco companies attacked the research repeatedly with a a well-financed denialist campaign of lies and outright pseudoscience, because the truth would hurt profits.

As we now know, no one employed by The Tobacco Institute during it's 40 year anti-anti-smoking propaganda war ever actually believed anything they put they put out, they just resolved their cognitive dissonance by looking at the figures on their quite sumptuous pay checks.

And, yet, knowing this about The Tobacco Institute; knowing Jay Gordon knows this about The Tobacco Institute; knowing Jay Gordon knows Paul Offit knows this about The Tobacco Institute; knowing Jay Gordon knows Paul Offit would never have suggested that people could smoke 10,000 cigarettes; Orac is still way to kind to Jay Gordon:

[minor edits] I know Dr. Jay believes there is a link between vaccines and autism, but scientific and epidemiological reality do not line up with that belief.

I believe Dr. Jay knows there is no link between vaccines and autism.
I believe Dr. Jay is a qualified physician whose legitimate practice cannot support the lifestyle of fame and fortune to which he aspires.
I believe Dr. Jay knows a market when he sees one.
I believe Dr. Jay is clever enough to have devised a way to exploit the profit potential of that market while maintaining an aura of legitimacy.
I believe Dr. Jay has opened a side-line of quackery to enrich his back account and hob-nob with celebrities at parties thrown by Jenny McCarthy.
I believe Dr. Jay's public statements are the equivalent of Geritol ads or PR releases from The Tobacco Institute.
I believe Dr. Jay does not believe one god-damn thing he says about vaccines and autism.
I believe Dr. Jay should lose his medical license, and be named as a defendant in a class action suit brought on behalf of anyone who has contracted measles from infections that can be traced epidemiologically to the geographic area in which he practices.

If you believe a con-man actually believes anything he claims to believe, you have been conned.

@sadmar

I think Dr. Jay understands the science perfectly well.

You are assuming facts not in evidence.

I think Dr. Jay intentionally misrepresents the science.

This, however, is true. But it is not necessary to understand the science in order to misrepresent it.

And BTW, if you wish your comments to be read in full, I recommend learning brevity.

Heh, Todd, you're recommending someone learn brevity on Respectful Insolence. Well, he's not gonna learn it from our esteemed, host, that's for sure. ;-) Orac is famed for his verbosity!

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 15 Jan 2015 #permalink

Pneumonia is a "moderate" complication? In that case, my brother would like the missing 10% of his lung capacity back.

Johanna:
Pneumonia killed my Mom at age 65. She'd been hospitalized for a severe bone bruise after taking a fall in her kitchen. The severe pain did not subside, the doctors had no answers but more rest, and her hospital stay kept getting extended. I think they more-or-less forgot about her, and/or stopped listening to her because she continued to complain (nicely) about the pain they could do no more about. There are lots of germs in hospitals. She contracted pneumonia, and lying on her back, physically weakened, and with diminished lung capacity to begin with, the fluid quickly filled her chest and...

You wrote: "If a parent thinks that the risk is no biggie, send ‘em my way. I’ve a few very pungent words for them…" I don't think we'll have many parents to send you. I doubt many parents actually have pneumonia on their radar enough to have a risk assessment one way or another.

We are not talking about parents. We are talking about a prominent celebrity physician named Bob Sears, who wrote:

moderate complications, like pneumonia, can occur. It can also be more severe for infants, pregnant moms and immunocompromised people. But most complications are manageable. So, it is a worry for exposed people, but for the public at large, we should just go about life as usual.

Um, Dr. Bob, the problem is the public at large going about life as usual has no idea what they've they been exposed to, and if any exposures lead to pneumonia, it's only a moderate, manageable complication if comes to the attention of a physician in time, which it all too often does not. Which you should damn well know. Which means you're just another murderer in a lab coat.

Johanna: I wish I could promise that after you go through the Kubler-Ross grief stages, your blood temperature will return to normal. My Mom passed in 1988, and it still burns.

I live in Daly City, so if anyone did send Bob Sears your way I be tempted to ask you to let me know. But don't. I probably wouldn't be content with pungent words, and be too tempted to bring a pair of pliers and a blow torch.

My deepest sympathies for your losses...

Johanna - I am deeply sorry for your loss.

As to the quarantine situation, for the person in quarantine it sucks. If you look at the laws, most of the (usually rather broad) quarantine powers enjoyed by PH officials were written a long (long) time ago. They give us the power to enforce a quarantine but they were written before the whole salary/compensation thing came about. And yes, they can be deeply burdensome. However, they are important. Most of us don't like serving jury duty, but we go because its our responsibility. I don't think anyone would like to be quarantined but we do it because we don't want to expose someone who could get sick and die from the illness. Unfortunately this woman is barking up the wrong tree. The authorities have the right to lock her up and enforce mandatory quarantine. And having spent my entire career in PH I know for a fact NO ONE likes to have to do this. Its awful for the person involved, its awful for the PH staff to have to order it, its a PR nightmare, and quite frankly its the last resort. We always try to educate before this point. I don't know of any situation that has progressed to mandatory quarantine where PH nurses haven't spent literally hours on the phone or often in person explaining why they are asking for a voluntary quarantine and why it is necessary. Unfortunately, even after all of this you get the few who flat refuse to inconvenience themselves. And then you have to be the bad guy and order them locked up and it sucks. I agree I don't think anyone should lose their job, and I think they should continue to get paid (particularly for something like TB or measles where you can be in quarantine for a while).

To the pregnant lady up thread - (as a fellow pregnant lady) when you have your first OB visit the blood draw they use to look for immunity should have included measles. So they should have an antibody titer on file, or you can get one. Unless I am dead wrong but I don't think I am they won't give you an MMR while pregnant as it's a live attenuated vaccine. If you are exposed they can give you IG. But hopefully you will be immune. But if you were exposed I would still talk to OB ASAP.

Per pneumonia - I spent 10 days in the hospital a the age of 7 for pneumonia. I still vividly remember just how badly that sucked. Pneumonia isn't a trivial thing. You would think a doctor would know that.

••I think Dr. Jay understands the science perfectly well.••
"You are assuming facts not in evidence."

If you wish your comments to be intelligent, I recommend learning the difference between an assumption of facts and an argument of inference based on known facts — which requires several logical steps, supported by exemplary evidence, and cannot be reduced into a simplistic bon mot that you would apparently find brief enough to read and attempt to comprehend.

I'd be curious if Ylsa and Myrna had formed opinions Maine nurse Traci Hickox's objection to a non-medically indicated 21 day quarantine, after returning home from providing care for Ebola patients during the outbreak in Africa.

As I recall, not a whole lot of people accepted "But she's not even sick" at that time...

I think Dr. Jay understands the science perfectly well.

You are, quite simply, spectacularly wrong. However, it's (somewhat) forgivable, as you clearly don't have the decade's worth of background that I have had trying to educate Dr. Jay about the science and failing after many, many tries, some of which have included prolonged discussions in the comments, others of which have included prolonged e-mail discourses. Basically, Dr. Jay prioritizes his "personal clinical observations" over his "three decades as a pediatrician" over science and demonstrates a very poor grasp of the basic science of vaccines. Nor do you have the several years of experience many of my regular commenters have had doing the same when Dr. Jay makes his periodic forays into the comment section here and the rarer foray into the comment section at my not-so-secret other blog. You could have saved yourself the embarrassment of saying something so spectacularly incorrect if you had taken a little time to do some searching of the archives. It's not as though Dr. Jay hasn't been a topic many, many times here over the decade that this blog has been in existence. To get an idea of how long Dr. Jay and I have "known" each other, here are the first two times I ever wrote about him:

http://oracknows.blogspot.com/2005/05/more-antivaccination-puffery-on.h…
http://oracknows.blogspot.com/2005/06/huffington-post-is-still-at-it.ht…

Yep. That's nearly a decade ago. Man, I feel old. In the blogging work, I'm downright ancient.

Another summary can be found here:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/dr-jay-gordon-and-me-encounters-wit…

Basically, Dr. Jay regurgitates antivaccine tropes and appears really to believe them. Perhaps the most epic exchange I had with him was by e-mail when I tried to explain to him how science and epidemiology work, and he simply couldn't "grok" it, instead touting his "three decades of clinical experience" as trumping all. I tried valiantly to explain to him the methods that science uses to try to counter normal human shortcomings, including confirmation bias, inappropriately imputing causation to correlation, and a number of other pitfalls that come with "personal experience," but he seemed unable to understand or accept it.

Seriously, dude. by now, I've seen you spout off ignorantly and at near Orac-ian length so many times on topics here because you clearly don't know the background (and it's obvious to me and some of the longer-tenured regulars here that you don't know the background) that I've concluded that hubris must be a big part of the reason. Perhaps you think you're "shaking things up" when you "question accepted norms" in this comment section (e.g., in this thread), but in reality all you're doing is annoying the regulars, who have a choice to make: Either to take you by the hand and explain stuff that's been hashed out around here many, many times over the last decade or just to vent at you for being annoying for no good purpose.

Then, when some people understandably respond angrily to your nonsense, you retreat to play the role of the wounded truth teller who's being persecuted for questioning the prevailing wisdom. In this case, I and others have been trying to educate Dr. Jay for nearly a decade. We've all (mostly) failed, although he's not entirely uneducable. I note, for instance, that he doesn't invoke the formaldehyde bogeyman anymore. Still, it took many months, and it's just chipping around the edges at best. Meanwhile, Dr. Jay still practices the same way he did a decade ago.

There are times when you make decent points. Unfortunately, this is not one of them.

Heh, Todd, you’re recommending someone learn brevity on Respectful Insolence. Well, he’s not gonna learn it from our esteemed, host, that’s for sure. ;-) Orac is famed for his verbosity!

That's why I, as the benevolent dictator of this blog, sometimes tell particularly verbose commenters that if they want to be as verbose as Orac, they should create a WordPress or Blogger account and start their own blog rather than doing it in the comments of this one. :-)

There's a huge number of comments on this thread, but it proves that Dr. Jay Gordon is a pathological liar, who claims that the varicella vaccine was available in the United States twenty years before it was licensed by the FDA. See my comment here addressed to Brian Deer and follow Dr. Jay's comments, even after it was proven by me and other posters that varicella vaccine was not available under a "compassionate use" protocol for children with cancer, who were immune suppressed, during the mid 1970s.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/04/18/andrew-wakefield-wants-a-l…

@ lilady:

Oh those were the days!
How well I remember when he called me a racist or suchlike.
He wanted to share some wine with you even after arguing with you.

Dr Jay is an *interesting* person indeed. I sort of miss him.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 15 Jan 2015 #permalink

Hey Calli:
For the record: Orac takes no blame for my verbosity. It's his blog. He gets to write as much or little as he likes. That doesn't give any of us license or encouragement to do likewise.

I'm a writer. I write. When I start writing I always imagine I can be reasonably succinct. Hah! I ALWAYS feel embarrassed by the long posts that take up a lot of bandwidth. Believe it or not, I have a bunch I've written, but not posted, because they're too long to pass my rudeness filter. As I noted some time ago, I have been meaning to set up someplace where I can post the longer stuff off-this-site, and just drops links/summaries here. I haven't gotten that far — too busy writing these damn things! Why doesn't Orac make some posts on topics that don't stir me up? I have two months of mail yet to open! I jest. Not about the mail, about blaming Orac. I offer my sincere apologies to all for putting too-much here, and for not yet getting my own page set-up.

And in that, I shall modify my snappy reply #57 to Todd. My post #50 is a perfectly reasonable length, especially given it's content and the formatting. (799 words, 572 original, 227 in block quotations). I make no apology for it whatsoever, and was offended that would be considered unworthy of reading in full.

However, granting that Todd may have been referencing other specific long comments, or a general trend of comments he choses not to read in full: point taken.

Nevertheless, my total word count remains below that of certain troll-ish commenters who seem to have every vacuous word of their posts well attended to, and receive rebuttals from Minions to such collective length that... gosh, I've even complained about it on another thread! So, yeah, I'd be more sympathetic of folks time the less of it they waste playing whack-a-troll (not that I'm citing Todd for that, just a general observation.)

According to the Seattle Times, the woman who came to our area spent time at:
• Bethany at Pacific (in Providence Everett Medical Center), 916 Pacific Ave., Everett: Dec. 30, 1-7 p.m.
• Anthony’s Home Port, 456 Admiral Way, Edmonds: Dec. 30, 8 p.m.- midnight
• Swedish Edmonds emergency room, 76th Avenue West, Edmonds: Jan. 1, 2:45-6:30 p.m.

To me this suggests she was ill enough to seek medical attention twice, but still went out to fancy dinner? Granted this was before news stories about measles at Disneyland came out, but so much for "if we're sick we'll stay home."

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 15 Jan 2015 #permalink

Wait, I'm wrong. Bethany at Pacific is a senior care facility, so she was almost certainly visiting someone. Less a source of indignation, but certainly yikes-inducing!

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 15 Jan 2015 #permalink

What's actually curious is how few measles epidemics seem to have originated at Disneyland. The annual attendance is more than 16 million, and has been at least 10 million every year since 1991. Looking at the breakdown in terms of areas of California and other states, I would guess that the cases are about representative of relative visitorship, in that families close to the park are more likely to have annual passes, or at the least, can visit without a long distance trip. the news stories don't go into these questions. The causation issue is complicated by the fact that antivaccine families and population density seem to go in parallel.

I'll leave it to the people who know more about infectious diseases and about epidemiology, but I wonder why there haven't been hundreds of cases over the past few years, since there have probably been many thousands of unvaccinated people going through Disneyland, and probably a considerable number of tourists from overseas who have been infectious.

@ Orac #59

Fair enough. I yield to your expert diagnosis of Dr. Jay. It sounds like you have more than enough experience with the man to know what he gets and what he doesn't get.

I further apologize for not hitting 'Send' on my reply to Calli earlier, which I wrote well before I saw your posts.

I could expound on what I took as evidence Dr. Jay knew better, but it's irrelevant. First because you know way more. But second because I wasn't really trying to make an argument about Dr, Jay specifically. Rather I was using Gordon's claims somewhat figuratively to raise a question of epistemology. How do we know people actually believe what they profess to believe, especially when their actions appear to be unscrupulous? In that, I was only partly presenting the affirmative case "Dr, Jay is a lying con artist", and more just laying out a counter-thesis to the effect "You have not established that Dr. Jay is NOT a lying con artist." But apparently you have, and the degree of contact you indicate in #59 is plenty of evidence for me.

In retrospect, I see that I framed #50 very poorly in regards to my intent, for which I accept full responsibility, admit error, and offer sincere apologies. As ever, I wish ScienceBlogs had an edit function. :-)

As my assertions are "spectacularly incorrect" regarding the actual material facts of Jay Gordon known to you. I hereby withdraw the actual Jay Gordon as the referent of any and all of them, and substitute a hypothetical 'Jay Gordon' of whom no such deep background is known.

I shall hold to my statement "I think Orac and some of the Minions are often too prone to take quacks at their own word regarding what they believe" emphasizing:
1) that "I think" means 'I wonder if' and indicates not some definitive conclusion, but a topic of possible discussion,
2) "some" only means "enough to talk about"
3) "often" is spectacularly unspecific regarding actual quantity of percentage of commentary, meaning only "more often than I find warranted" which could be not-that-many by numerical count.
4) "too prone" has a similar ambiguity in "too" and indicates that the degree of any "taking quacks at their word" will most likely only be partial.
Those qualifiers stated, I continue to think this is valid subject of discussion.

Regarding me:
• A certain hubris is attendant to any click of a 'Submit Comment" button. How much hubris is involved may be in the eye of the beholder. However 'hubris' in the sense of 'someone who likes to listen to themselves talk' would not be a big factor in my spouting.
• I do not ask to be taken by the hand and shown anything, however it is a false dichotomy to oppose that with 'venting'.
• There are times when I mean to be a bit annoying — though that is almost always intended as theatricality — and there are certainly times when I may come off to many regulars as annoying, when I mean to be nothing of the sort. I do not feel hurt by comments expressing annoyance.
• Just because some readers cannot see good purpose in my posts does not mean they lack good purpose. Some of my comments are trivial. If I did not sincerely believe the longer ones people find annoying have good purpose, I would not write them, nor post them.
• I do not feel persecuted at all. Annoyed or exasperated sometimes perhaps. I do not feel intellectually wounded in the slightest, and it would be hubris indeed for anyone here to imagine they could inflict that sort of hurt upon me. That said, things can get nasty here, and I have experienced some degree of emotional wounding, to which I have no doubt responded badly. In my earlier sojurn on this board several years ago, things became so bizarrely vicious I had to withdraw. However none of the parties to that seem to be around anymore, I find no emotional threats in any arguments I have been having with the regulars, and to the extent that I have felt any small hurt in the past from regulars, I have learned to deal.
• I realize others may have taken things I've written to be emotionally hurtful. I have not meant them to be, but that is not in itself any sort of excuse. We are all subject to unintended consequences stemming from the limits of our knowledge of others. However I have failed to exercise due caution more than one. I apologize, sincerely, for that.

I shall address the issues of "not knowing the background", my intended purpose in participating here, my 'method' and perhaps another point or two at some later time, so as to keep this comment under half-Oracian word count. I shall also make more diligent efforts to find the time to set up that off-RI space for my ramblings.

I am glad you have made some progress with the real Dr. Jay.

Sincerely, and with best wishes to all: s.

Bob G: I've been reviewing in my mind most of the advisories that have been issued by local and State health departments about measles exposures in large venues. The majority of those outbreaks were eventually traced back to a non vaccinated United States resident (usually a child), who traveled with his/her family to a measles-endemic area of the world, became infected there and arrived home to infect other non vaccinated individuals.

I'll simply observe that Jay Gordon is the one who motivated the creation of the acronym FIFUDOS: Functionally Indistinguishable From Utterly Dishonest Or Stupid. We can't look into Jay's mind to determine what his "major malfunction" in fact is, but I submit that it doesn't really matter. If we expect him to act in a way appropriate to an intelligent and honest pediatrician with an actual grasp of real medicine, he will let us down. I'm not sure the actual reason matters, although if Jay ever faces a jury trial, those twelve good men and women may have to wrestle with the question.

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 15 Jan 2015 #permalink

Where's the proof Orac?
I refuse to read the convoluted Big Pharma supported MSM articles you post to get the FACTS. Here is what I want, cited only by the involved State Departments of Health:

As of January 15, 2015
*Total number of CONFIRMED cases of measles only, of individuals visiting Disneyland between December 15 and December 20, 2014.

*Total number of CONFIRMED cases of measles w/ 2 MMR vaccines CONFIRMED in individuals visiting Disneyland between December 15 and December 20, 2014.

*Total number of CONFIRMED cases of measles w/ 1 MMR vaccine CONFIRMED in individuals visiting Disneyland between December 15 and December 20, 2014

*Total number of CONFIRMED cases of measles with no MMR vaccine CONFIRMED in individuals visiting Disneyland between December 15 and December 20, 2014.

*Total number of CONFIRMED cases of measles with no MMR vaccine and under 12 mos. of age CONFIRMED in individuals visiting Disneyland between December 15 and December 20, 2014.
Please link to source.

*Total number of cases listed above, who were hospitalized.
*Total number of cases listed above who are still in the hospital.
*Total number of cases listed above who died.
*Total number of CONFIRMED measles cases for California in 2014.
*Total number of CONFIRMED measles cases for California in 2013.
Thank you

Your post at #71 inspired this acrostic......

A is for Alluring, so attractive -NOT
N is for Noble, self-sacrificing-NOT
T is for Tolerant, endless patience-NOT
A is for Awesome, a most inspiring person-NOT
E is for Enchanting, most alluring-NOT
U is for Useful, a great helping hand-NOT
S is for Sincere, staying true-NOT

@Orac
Here's what the acrostic poem generator had to say about you, LOL! Watch out. http://www.acrosticpoem.org

O is for Orderly, ever organized
R is for Romantic, the heart of a poet
A is for Alluring, so attractive
C is for Creative, producing exciting output

@ toto

Here is what I want, cited only by the involved State Departments of Health

Go get them yourselves and enlighten us.

Actually, please move to "amishland", as you suggest. And don't forget they don't like computers and internet (or so I have heard)
This way, you will get the health security you wish and we will get a break.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 15 Jan 2015 #permalink

@Toto : The involved State Departments of Health is the California Department of Public Health, which you would have found very easily had looked at a MSM article.
http://www.cdph.ca.gov/Pages/NR15-002.aspx
California Department of Public Health (CDPH) has been notified of seven confirmed cases of measles in patients from five different locations within California it was reported today by Dr. Ron Chapman, CDPH director and state health officer. Two Utah resident cases have also been confirmed and three additional California residents are also suspected to have measles and are under investigation. All confirmed and suspect cases reported visiting Disneyland or Disney California Adventure Park in Orange County, California sometime between December 15 and December 20, 2014.
The California confirmed cases reside in five local health jurisdictions (Alameda, Orange, Pasadena, Riverside, and San Diego) and range in age from 8 months to 21 years. Six cases were unvaccinated for measles (two were too young to be vaccinated), and one had received appropriate vaccination (two doses of MMR vaccine). Several large contact investigations are ongoing.

and
http://www.cdph.ca.gov/HealthInfo/discond/Pages/Measles.aspx
which brings us to : http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/immunize/Pages/VaccinePreventableDiseas…

You're welcome.
I'd suggest you write them a letter should you need more info.

@sadmar

••I think Dr. Jay understands the science perfectly well.••
“You are assuming facts not in evidence.”

If you wish your comments to be intelligent, I recommend learning the difference between an assumption of facts and an argument of inference based on known facts

Let's break things down a little. "I think" implies that you are making an assumption that "Dr. Jay understands the science perfectly well." That last bit is a statement of fact. And you inferred that statement of fact from other assumptions about Dr. Jay. To paraphrase Game of Thrones, you know nothing, sadmar.

— which requires several logical steps, supported by exemplary evidence, and cannot be reduced into a simplistic bon mot that you would apparently find brief enough to read and attempt to comprehend.

Thanks for the insult. Now, if you're down being all high-and-mighty, you might look back to my comment on brevity as what it was: advice. If a blog comment is extraordinarily long, as yours tend to be, they are less likely to be read. If you are a writer, then I assume you want your comments to be read. If people are not reading due to the length, then you are not writing as well as you could. So again, learn brevity. If you want to write walls of text, start your own blog.

C'mon, Todd. To paraphrase a quote attributed to any number of famous authors, if sadmar had the time, he'd write shorter posts.

Personally, I pretty much always skip 'em. "TLDNR".

By palindrom (not verified) on 16 Jan 2015 #permalink

@palindrom

True, but I try to be helpful to people who look like they're floundering with what should be basic concepts.

Todd #77

"I think” implies that you are making an assumption

1) In terms of my original post #50: that's a not un-reasonable implication to draw, in lack of a better defining context, but not-at-all a 'dominant' meaning, the sense of ‘I wonder if’ being equally well established in usage.
2) In terms of my too-snotty reply #57, my point was that I had not made an assumption, but presented a case for why one cannot assume from Gordon's mis-statements of science as quoted in the OP that Gordon in fact does not understand the science. That is, I offered an inferential argument about why Gordon might in fact know the science, yet chose to mis-state it. That additional facts invalidate the proposition "Dr. Jay understands the science perfectly well" does not invalidate the logic in the argument, or, more importantly the fact it IS an argument, not as assertion of assumption.
3) The tone of #57 was inappropriately insulting, for which I shall apologize again, and note that I erred in part from assuming the 'brevity' comment was directed at #50. However, per #64, I reconsidered, and noted the brevity point as well taken.
4) It seems neither of us are particularly adept at offering advice — actual constructive criticism — in ways it will be interpreted as such. "If you wish your comments to be intelligent, I recommend learning the difference between an assumption of facts and an argument of inference," is, in fact, advice, and good advice at that abstracted from the virtual-interpersonal context. However, it's badly stated, even abstracted, and certainly presented in the wrong form for the occasion.

you know nothing, sadmar.

No. I don't know enough about Jay Gordon to make a valid empirical case he actually understands vaccine science. Which wasn't my point, but looked enough like it that I understand the confusion. I actually know a lot. I know that I know almost nothing of the science stuff folks here know. You might consider the inverse to be true as well.

I try to be helpful to people who look like they’re floundering with what should be basic concepts.

Hey! Me too!

@ palindrom #79
"if sadmar had the time, he’d write shorter posts."

Exactly! (not kidding) You know, I've done a lot of work and teaching in motion picture editing, and in film-style cutting you start with everything shot as being a potential part of the piece, and then begin a long process of throwing things out. You go though the rushes, put all the potentially usable takes in one bin, then put them all together in sequence — camera start to camera stop, multiple takes of same shot — in what's called an "assembly". Then, step-by-step, you whittle it down into what's called a "rough cut" which is coherent enough to make some kind of sense, and guide useful discussions, but is still way-too-long.

Every motion picture editor knows the phrase "I didn't have time to make it shorter" as one of the defining maxims of the art.

Legendary filmmaking teacher Sandy Mackendrick once wrote, "Student films come in three sizes: too long, much too long, and very much too long." An over-generalization, of course, but true enough, enough of the time.

And, yes, I my comments would be shorter if I had more time...

@ Helianthus #75

@ toto
Actually, please move to “amishland”, as you suggest. And don’t forget they don’t like computers and internet (or so I have heard)

Yeah, actually you've heard wrong. The Amish don't use the Net themselves for the same reasons they don't use land line phones or connect to the electrical grid or any other public utilities: the command to "be not of The World" and maintain a separate community. They're not, as often imagined, opposed to technology per se. How "be not of The World" relates to any technology varies from one congregation to another. The Amish have no church hierarchy at all, no common set of rules, no written decrees beyond The Bible. E.g. many Amish have modern kitchen and laundry appliances, they just run off LP gas. Most could generate their own electricity without ruffling the Bishop's feathers, though they prefer not too (generators being noisy, among other things). Amish manufacturing shops have a full complement of power tools powered by compressed air. A computer would probably be OK if used strictly for pragmatic business purposes — keeping inventory, doing the books, etc. — and didn't have to be plugged into a wall socket. Though they don't use the Internet, they like the Internet as a means to promote and sell their wares. They simply have to hire someone to handle their on-line distribution (usually a modernized Mennonite).

This actually helps the Amish with a bind. They need to sell stuff to "The English" (all non-plain Americans), but tourists put them in too much wordly contact, create demand for commercial and housing development that eats up farm land, and so on. The last thing they need is for toto to move there.

And toto probably wouldn't like the food.

Amish food typically is very filling, and not low-fat. ...pot pies, butter noodles, chicken corn soup, bologna, chipped beef gravy, apple butter, scrapple, snitz pie...

The Mickey D's in Lancaster County have reserved parking for buggies, as does the Super Wal-Mart on the East edge of Lancaster. While the Amish may have some religious issues with conventional medical practice, I have never met or heard of an Amishman into any sort of woo. You could do a whole series of SNL sketches on an Amishman wandering into a Reiki practice, or a vegan superfood and supplement store, or talking to a homeopath — pulling his beard in confusion, then just shaking his head "Crazy those English! And so hochmut!"
It'd be hilarious, but you might have had to have lived in PA to get the gags.

The story was on television news last night, and claimed something like 39 cases now. The Los Angeles Times website has a column that attacks the anti-vaccination crowd for the outbreak, and warns about the consequences. And yes, the news stories are now including the initial case as a 20 year old unvaccinated woman who went to Disneyland.

Lilady: Thanks for the comment. My internet search found a Wikipedia story that describes outbreaks over the past decade. As people have discussed in this blog, the Europeans are a lot worse than the U.S. in terms of failure to vaccinate and having measles as an endemic problem (think I'm using that word correctly here). The Wiki article claims several hundred cases brought back to the U.S. from Europe over the years, and additional cases from various places in Asia.

And to continue my previous inquiry, it would seem that we are fairly lucky not to be seeing hundreds or thousands of cases stemming from the initial Disneyland exposure. That suggests that herd immunity has been somewhat successful, and also suggests that a person who is actively infectious probably doesn't broadcast the virus over hundreds of yards at any one time.

By the way, San Diego news sources are reporting on a number of cases now totaling 10, most of which appear to be children in one family.

I find it remarkable that NO ONE can answer all of the questions I posted in #72. With all of the blathering posts about the Disneyland story, I ASSUMED YOU KNEW THE ANSWERS TO THESE MOST BASIC, SCIENTIFIC, LOGICAL QUESTIONS. On what factual evidence do you base your opinions?

At least LouV had the integrity to attempt to put some of the information out there. Even so, it is still inadequate.

It seems that CDPH only lists CONFIRMED measles cases from 2008-2012. Importantly, it is listed by county of residence or county where case was identified. Someone visiting Disneyland from out of state who returned home before measles appeared, would not be in such a count.
Here are the totals:

* 2008 - 17 cases
* 2009 - 9 cases
* 2010 - 27 cases
* 2011 - 30 cases
* 2012 - 8 cases
http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/immunize/Documents/VPD-DiseaseSummary20… p.40

An interesting pattern. Looks like 2013 and 2014 should expect a jump in cases.

@Bob G #86

You claim to be the expert in this "news" story. Please answer my questions from #72. I would like the data all in one post. If you don't have it, then your opinion is WORTHLESS.

@BobG - when you are talking epidemiology of an outbreak it is mostly luck we haven't had more measles in this country with declines in herd immunity. As for Disneyland, that ship is still sailing. Since this outbreak has involved a whopping number of completely unvaccinated cases, which we know from studying it tend to cluster, I would be very surprised if there aren't more cases. Probably a lot more cases. Given the unfortunate realities in CA, this could be the one that slides us back into endemic measles again. Something everyone in PH has been fearing since the rise of the anti-vaccine movement and the falling vaccination rates. Then we too can be back in the same boat as Europe where they are struggling to this day to put that genie back in the bottle. And it is only a matter of time until someone dies. That breaks my heart.

@Toto above. The vast majority of cases in this outbreak have been unvaccinated or too young to vaccinate. I think you are trying to make a pedantic point that most anti-vaccine proponents try to make that the vaccine is not effective. It is. As to deaths, there have been none (yet) but several cases have been treated in the hospital. This is not a trivial illness and costs to those affected and those in PH who are investigating aggressively is enormous. If you want more numbers you can find them yourself online.

@Kiiri

The direction that the U.S. is headed was predicted by a few of us a while back. When the outbreaks really took off in Europe, several of us (I think Orac, Ren and a few others) said that we would be having similar numbers in a few years. 2014 was likely the start of that. Not sure how 2015 will go. With the number of cases last year, we might see somewhat fewer cases this year, but the trend is probably going to be more and more cases over the next several years unless vaccination rates change. And there will be deaths from the disease, something we haven't seen since 2003, when two people died from measles.

Sadmar:

If you used the time to write one short comment instead of three long ones, more people would read them. Otherwise, you're assuming that my time (as a reader) is less valuable than yours (as a writer) , and that I will agree with you and spend more time on your comments so you don't have to.

I edit for money, and very occasionally for free for my mother. It's work.

Vicki:
People can read what they want. I'm not assuming anything about the value of your time or how you chose to spend it. My only stated complaint was that some people chose to spend a lot of time reading and replying to trolls, which IMHO is unproductive. If they enjoy it, they get to choose their hobby as freely as Orac does. They could be fly-fishing, or putting ships in bottles. It's hardly for me to say. But if the idea is to advance the cause of reducing harm from pseudo-science quackery, I don't see the utility.

@sadmar

I guess you missed my post from an earlier blog post on the same subject. Here is the source of "Amishland":

DEATH BY CHICKENPOX VS DEATH BY CAR CRASH:

“This study found that from 1990 through 2001, 1,465 death records listed chickenpox as the cause or a CONTRIBUTING cause of death. Chickenpox-related deaths averaged 145 per year from 1990 through 1994 (before the vaccine was licensed)”
http://www.immunizationinfo.org/science/decline-chickenpox-deaths

IN 2001 ALONE, THERE WERE A REPORTED 37,862 DEATHS FROM MOTOER VEHICLE CRASHES.
http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

My advice to fearful pro-vaxxers:
STAY OUT OF CARS AT ALL COSTS!
The only truly safe people to be around are the UNVACCINATED AMISH!

Toto,

First off, the MMR vaccine will not protect you from chicken pox.

Second, only a very cruel sadistic heartless person would want a child to suffer up to two weeks covered with dozens of itchy open wounds (pox). You obviously hate children, and probably thought the hundred deaths from chicken pox each year in the USA were because those people deserved to suffer and die.

You have shown your true colors.

@GF:

Disney is likely losing serious business with this outbreak.

Or not:

"Despite the measles outbreak, a Disneyland Resort spokesperson, who didn't want to be identified, said that they haven't seen a drop in attendance."

It's not as though the disease arose spontaneously.

@Chris
#94
Wow. Did you read all of that in the blank space between the lines? Quite an epic fail in your logic. You are obviously too young to remember when measles, mumps, and chicken pox were considered a childhood rite of passage. Merck vaccine scientist, Maurice Hilleman, didn't seem too concerned about daughter Jeryl Lynn's inconvenient case of mumps, back in the day.....
http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/mumps-jeryl-lynn-story

@Kiiri:

@Toto above. The vast majority of cases in this outbreak have been unvaccinated or too young to vaccinate. I think you are trying to make a pedantic point....

Toto doesn't engage in "trying to make points," it just shrieks idiotically to itself.

I have never met or heard of an Amishman into any sort of woo. You could do a whole series of SNL sketches on an Amishman wandering into a Reiki practice, or a vegan superfood and supplement store, or talking to a homeopath — pulling his beard in confusion, then just shaking his head “Crazy those English! And so hochmut!”

Missed the whole Sarah Hershberger thing, eh?

Anyway,

"Dr. Leonard Torok of Trillium Creek in Medina said the lack of quantifiable results in holistic medicine may do the practice a disservice also. Torok has been administering holistic treatment modalities for more than 20 years, but he's also found that 'Amish patients are quite open to homeopathy.'"

Yah, there's no way that members of a group that makes a point of ending formal education with the 8th grade might be susceptible to being fed a line of complete horseshіt dressed up in time-tested naturalistic costumery.

Did someone mention supplements?

Amish compared to non-Amish adults reported 1) taking significantly (P < 0.05) more supplements [mean number of daily products by Amish males (3.5 ± 3.7) and females (5.2 ± 4.3) vs. non-Amish males (1.4 ± 1.3) and females (3.0 ± 3.2)]; 2) taking significantly (P < 0.05) more vitamins, minerals, fiber supplements (females only), and enzymes (females only); 3) taking significantly (P < 0.01) more herbal supplements (approximately 55% and 71% of Amish males and females vs. 17% and 23% of non-Amish males and females, respectively)....

The state of CA has finally updated the Measles page (same link, new info)
http://www.cdph.ca.gov/HealthInfo/discond/Pages/Measles.aspx

36 cases statewide, plus 5 unrelated ones for 41 total in the first two weeks of 2015.

They are also listing the Disneyland-linked cases from other states, and have added a table showing age distribution.

The San Diego County health department issued a statement yesterday (linked by someone else above) that 9 of the 10 local cases are unvaccinated; I have not dug through other counties’ information.

To put things in perspective: CA had had 49 cases of measles at the beginning of April 2014
http://www.cdph.ca.gov/HealthInfo/discond/Documents/CDPH-MeaslesHealthA…

The state has also modified the table to distinguish between the Disneyland-linked cases vs others.

36 cases statewide, plus 5 unrelated ones

It doesn't say that the existence of epi-links has been ruled out for those five, though.

@Kiiri #89
Are you an alter ego for Bob?
Obviously your opinions are NOT based COMPLETE verified scientific data.
WORTHLESS.

*When someone refuses MMR vaccination, and gets the measles, it is a NATURAL ILLNESS, unless they were exposed to the virus from a vaccinated individual:
CASE OF VACCINE-ASSOCIATED MEASLES FIVE WEEKS POST-IMMUNISATION, BRITISH COLUMBIA, CANADA, OCTOBER 2013
"...Therefore, the combination of classic measles symptoms, detection of measles vaccine virus and reactive measles IgM, and lack of evidence of an alternative illness explanation, were highly suggestive of MEASLES-VACCINE ASSOCIATED ILLNESS.

Heightened surveillance and awareness of measles because of the ongoing outbreak likely contributed to the identification of this case. Although this is the first such reported case, it likely represents the existence of additional, but unidentified, exceptions to the typical timeframe for measles vaccine virus shedding and illness. Such cases have important public health implications for the investigation of measles clusters because while there is uncertainty about case classification (wild-type vs vaccine-type), case and contact management should proceed as if for wild-type to prevent secondary transmission. In this case, uncertainty from the presence of a measles outbreak, symptom onset on day 37 after MMR vaccine administration, and a two-week period between the RT-PCR findings and genotype determination, resulted in the initially reasonable presumption that this was a wild-type measles case and subsequent resource-intense follow-up of contacts. Awareness of the frequency of such exceptions to the typical measles timeframe and improving the timeliness of measles vaccine virus genotyping could help focus public health resources on cases of wild-type measles. Further investigation is needed on the upper limit of measles vaccine virus SHEDDING based on increased sensitivity of the RT-PCR-based detection technologies and the immunological factors associated with vaccine-associated measles illness and virus shedding."
http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=20649

*If anyone receiving 1 measles vaccine gets the measles, it is vaccine failure or vaccine-associated measles.

*If anyone receiving 2 measles vaccines gets the measles, it is vaccine failure or vaccine-associated measles.

*Any child that did not get a measles vaccine because they are < 1 yr. but got the measles, it is a NATURAL ILLNESS, unless they were exposed to the virus from a vaccinated individual.

I find it remarkable that NO ONE can answer all of the questions I posted in #72

Needy troll is needy.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 16 Jan 2015 #permalink

@Chemmomo
"The San Diego County health department issued a statement yesterday (linked by someone else above) that 9 of the 10 local cases are unvaccinated"
I can't find any official statement on this. Please give link.

Also, how do they define "unvaccinated"?
If they have received one MMR shot, they are "vaccinated".
Also, those who are "unvaccinated" by choice should not be counted with infants under 1 year. This has been used to inflate the numbers to stigmatize those who have a greater risk of long term harm from the vaccine versus a case of measles.

Remember, vaccines can cause measles:
"Eurosurveillance, Volume 18, Issue 49, 05 December 2013
Rapid communications
CASE OF VACCINE-ASSOCIATED MEASLES FIVE WEEKS POST-IMMUNISATION, BRITISH COLUMBIA, CANADA, OCTOBER 2013"
http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=20649

I find it unremarkable that NO ONE among the erudite regular commenters finds it worth their time to engage in pointless troll-feeding.

By palindrom (not verified) on 16 Jan 2015 #permalink

I find it unremarkable that NO ONE among the erudite regular commenters finds it worth their time to engage in pointless troll-feeding.

When even bots lose interest, it's pretty much over.

Narad @101

36 cases statewide, plus 5 unrelated ones

It doesn’t say that the existence of epi-links has been ruled out for those five, though.

Poking around local Ventura county news sources suggests theirs are linked, with one more yet to be confirmed.

On the other hand, Orange County, now up to 16 cases (12 on the state site), believes 6 of those have no connection to Disneyland.
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/measles-648386-cases-county.html
Of course, Orange County did take the lead on last year’s measles infections imported from the Philippines with 22 cases (going off memory).

The state site promises MWF updates, but Monday’s a holiday. I guess we’ll find out then if public health employees still got their day off.

OOPS CDC!
"Note: Genotype identification by a WHO reference laboratory (CDC or a public health laboratory that has validated their measles virus sequence analysis) is required to distinguish wild type from vaccine strain if vaccinated within 18 DAYS of RASH onset."
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/surv-manual/chpt07-measles.html

"In this report we describe a case of measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine-associated measles illness that was positive by both PCR and IgM, FIVE WEEKS after administration of the MMR vaccine. Based on our literature review, we BELIEVE this is the first such case report which has implications for both public health follow-up of measles cases and vaccine safety surveillance."
Date of submission: 15 November 2013
Eurosurveillance, Volume 18, Issue 49, 05 December 2013
Rapid communications
CASE OF VACCINE-ASSOCIATED MEASLES FIVE WEEKS POST-IMMUNISATION, BRITISH COLUMBIA, CANADA, OCTOBER 2013
http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=20649

A handy cover for vaccine "associated" measles.
Layman's terms: This baby got the measles from the vaccine. It happened to occur at the same time of a measles "outbreak". Hmmmm. PERHAPS THE VACCINE-CAUSED CASE STARTED THE OUTBREAK?

"Common side effects from the MMR vaccine include low-grade fever, skin rash, itching, hives, swelling, reddening of skin, and weakness. Reported serious adverse reactions following MMR vaccination include SEIZURES, BRAIN INFLAMMATION and ENCEPHALOPATHY; thrombocytopenia; joint, muscle and nerve pain; GASTROINTESTINAL DISORDERS; MEASLES-LIKE RASH; conjunctivitis and other serious health problems."
http://vran.org/in-the-news/measles-what-health-officials-arent-telling…

Well, there you go. Looks like the "unvaccinated" at the theme park came home with life-long measles immunity:

"According to ACIP recommendations, most persons born in 1956 or earlier are likely to have been infected with measles naturally and generally need not be considered susceptible."
M-M-R® II
(MEASLES, MUMPS, and RUBELLA VIRUS VACCINE LIVE) Vaccine insert.
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedPr… p.3

I seem to have a backlog of unpublished posts.
Any reason? This would make a nice video collection.

Toto

Amishland....the SAFE alternative.
January 16, 2015
Your comment is awaiting moderation.

@Chris
#94
Wow. Did you read all of that in the blank space between the lines? Quite an epic fail in your logic. You are obviously too young to remember when measles, mumps, and chicken pox were considered a childhood rite of passage. Merck vaccine scientist, Maurice Hilleman, didn’t seem too concerned about daughter Jeryl Lynn’s inconvenient case of mumps, back in the day…..
http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/mumps-jeryl-lynn-story

Toto

January 16, 2015
Your comment is awaiting moderation.

@Kiiri #89
Are you an alter ego for Bob?
Obviously your opinions are NOT based COMPLETE verified scientific data.
WORTHLESS.

*When someone refuses MMR vaccination, and gets the measles, it is a NATURAL ILLNESS, unless they were exposed to the virus from a vaccinated individual:
CASE OF VACCINE-ASSOCIATED MEASLES FIVE WEEKS POST-IMMUNISATION, BRITISH COLUMBIA, CANADA, OCTOBER 2013
“…Therefore, the combination of classic measles symptoms, detection of measles vaccine virus and reactive measles IgM, and lack of evidence of an alternative illness explanation, were highly suggestive of MEASLES-VACCINE ASSOCIATED ILLNESS.

Heightened surveillance and awareness of measles because of the ongoing outbreak likely contributed to the identification of this case. Although this is the first such reported case, it likely represents the existence of additional, but unidentified, exceptions to the typical timeframe for measles vaccine virus shedding and illness. Such cases have important public health implications for the investigation of measles clusters because while there is uncertainty about case classification (wild-type vs vaccine-type), case and contact management should proceed as if for wild-type to prevent secondary transmission. In this case, uncertainty from the presence of a measles outbreak, symptom onset on day 37 after MMR vaccine administration, and a two-week period between the RT-PCR findings and genotype determination, resulted in the initially reasonable presumption that this was a wild-type measles case and subsequent resource-intense follow-up of contacts. Awareness of the frequency of such exceptions to the typical measles timeframe and improving the timeliness of measles vaccine virus genotyping could help focus public health resources on cases of wild-type measles. Further investigation is needed on the upper limit of measles vaccine virus SHEDDING based on increased sensitivity of the RT-PCR-based detection technologies and the immunological factors associated with vaccine-associated measles illness and virus shedding.”
http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=20649

*If anyone receiving 1 measles vaccine gets the measles, it is vaccine failure or vaccine-associated measles.

*If anyone receiving 2 measles vaccines gets the measles, it is vaccine failure or vaccine-associated measles.

*Any child that did not get a measles vaccine because they are < 1 yr. but got the measles, it is a NATURAL ILLNESS, unless they were exposed to the virus from a vaccinated individual.

Toto

January 16, 2015
Your comment is awaiting moderation.

@Chemmomo
“The San Diego County health department issued a statement yesterday (linked by someone else above) that 9 of the 10 local cases are unvaccinated”
I can’t find any official statement on this. Please give link.

Also, how do they define “unvaccinated”?
If they have received one MMR shot, they are “vaccinated”.
Also, those who are “unvaccinated” by choice should not be counted with infants under 1 year. This has been used to inflate the numbers to stigmatize those who have a greater risk of long term harm from the vaccine versus a case of measles.

Remember, vaccines can cause measles:
“Eurosurveillance, Volume 18, Issue 49, 05 December 2013
Rapid communications
CASE OF VACCINE-ASSOCIATED MEASLES FIVE WEEKS POST-IMMUNISATION, BRITISH COLUMBIA, CANADA, OCTOBER 2013″
http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=20649

Toto

January 17, 2015
Your comment is awaiting moderation.

OOPS CDC!
“Note: Genotype identification by a WHO reference laboratory (CDC or a public health laboratory that has validated their measles virus sequence analysis) is required to distinguish wild type from vaccine strain if vaccinated within 18 DAYS of RASH onset.”
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/surv-manual/chpt07-measles.html

“In this report we describe a case of measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine-associated measles illness that was positive by both PCR and IgM, FIVE WEEKS after administration of the MMR vaccine. Based on our literature review, we BELIEVE this is the first such case report which has implications for both public health follow-up of measles cases and vaccine safety surveillance.”
Date of submission: 15 November 2013
Eurosurveillance, Volume 18, Issue 49, 05 December 2013
Rapid communications
CASE OF VACCINE-ASSOCIATED MEASLES FIVE WEEKS POST-IMMUNISATION, BRITISH COLUMBIA, CANADA, OCTOBER 2013
http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=20649

A handy cover for vaccine “associated” measles.
Layman’s terms: This baby got the measles from the vaccine. It happened to occur at the same time of a measles “outbreak”. Hmmmm. PERHAPS THE VACCINE-CAUSED CASE STARTED THE OUTBREAK?

“Common side effects from the MMR vaccine include low-grade fever, skin rash, itching, hives, swelling, reddening of skin, and weakness. Reported serious adverse reactions following MMR vaccination include SEIZURES, BRAIN INFLAMMATION and ENCEPHALOPATHY; thrombocytopenia; joint, muscle and nerve pain; GASTROINTESTINAL DISORDERS; MEASLES-LIKE RASH; conjunctivitis and other serious health problems.”
http://vran.org/in-the-news/measles-what-health-officials-arent-telling…

Well, there you go. Looks like the “unvaccinated” at the theme park came home with life-long measles immunity:

“According to ACIP recommendations, most persons born in 1956 or earlier are likely to have been infected with measles naturally and generally need not be considered susceptible.”
M-M-R® II
(MEASLES, MUMPS, and RUBELLA VIRUS VACCINE LIVE) Vaccine insert.
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedPr… p.3

I don't know who Judith is, but I like her informed post:

Judith lol • 8 months ago
"No I didn't try to prevent the measles - the children have a lifetime immunity. Vitamin A, Vitamin D sunshine, healthy diet and it was no worse than a cold for them. They won't have to regularly have a vaccine containing Bovine calf serum, dibasic potassium phosphate, dibasic sodium phosphate, human albumin, human serum albumin, hydrolyzed gelatin, monobasic potassium phosphate, monosodium L-glutamate, MRC-5 cellular protein, neomycin, sodium bicarbonate, sorbitol, sucrose, potassium chloride and grown in aborted foetal cells. Also because only 1 - 5% of all adverse reactions are reported they may have avoided the following reactions:

In decreasing order of severity, without regard to causality, within each body system category and have been reported during clinical trials, with use of the marketed vaccine, or with use of monovalent or bivalent vaccine containing measles, mumps, or rubella:
Panniculitis; atypical measles; fever; syncope; headache; dizziness; malaise; irritability.Vasculitis.Pancreatitis; diarrhea; vomiting; parotitis; nausea. Diabetes mellitus.Thrombocytopenia (see WARNINGS, Thrombocytopenia); purpura; regional lymphadenopathy;leukocytosis.Anaphylaxis and anaphylactoid reactions have been reported as well as related phenomena such as angioneurotic edema (including peripheral or facial edema) and bronchial spasm in individuals with or without an allergic history Arthritis; arthralgia; myalgia. Encephalitis; encephalopathy; measles inclusion body encephalitis (MIBE) (see CONTRAINDICATIONS); subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE); Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS); acute disseminated encephalomyelitis (ADEM); febrile convulsions; afebrile convulsions or seizures; ataxia; polyneuritis; polyneuropathy; ocular palsies; paresthesia."

http://www.merck.com/product/u...

Note for those outside of California: the LA Times count includes all 16 cases in Orange County (the state has only reported 12 as of yesterday), and the table on the state site separates out Long Beach and Pasadena from Los Angeles, while all three cities are in LA County (8 cases total).

Thanks Chris – it didn’t occur to me that no one wants to scroll up past Toto’s nonsense to get the previous link.

There is a link in the third paragraph of the post to the State site, but you have to click a second link at the bottom of that article (“More information about measles can be found on the CDPH website”) to get to the page with the tables of cases.

Thanks Chris.

I was getting tired scrolling past the ranting of a little dog.

I love the way people like Toto seize upon an exceptionally rare case of vaccine-derived measles as a possible cause of an outbreak, when wild measles is far more virulent and far more dangerous. When their misinformation campaigns have the expected and presumably desired results of reducing vaccine coverage and allowing outbreaks, antivaxxers don't accept any responsibility, they still try to blame it on the vaccine.

Similarly the rare side effects of the vaccine are anathema but the far more common and severe sequelae of measles itself are a mere "rite of passage". I'm impressed (also a little concerned) by the mental contortions this must require.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 17 Jan 2015 #permalink

scrolling past the ranting of a little dog.

As Groucho Marx didn't say, "In toto it's too dark to read."

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 17 Jan 2015 #permalink

@Chris, Chemmomo, Darwy, Krebiozen, herr doktor bimler
I'm still waiting for you to post the individual stats on one page, with links to the appropriate state health department.
PUT UP OR SH## UP.

"Here is what I want, cited only by the involved State Departments of Health:

As of January 15, 2015
*Total number of CONFIRMED cases of measles only, of individuals visiting Disneyland between December 15 and December 20, 2014.

*Total number of CONFIRMED cases of measles w/ 2 MMR vaccines CONFIRMED in individuals visiting Disneyland between December 15 and December 20, 2014.

*Total number of CONFIRMED cases of measles w/ 1 MMR vaccine CONFIRMED in individuals visiting Disneyland between December 15 and December 20, 2014

*Total number of CONFIRMED cases of measles with no MMR vaccine CONFIRMED in individuals visiting Disneyland between December 15 and December 20, 2014.

*Total number of CONFIRMED cases of measles with no MMR vaccine and under 12 mos. of age CONFIRMED in individuals visiting Disneyland between December 15 and December 20, 2014.
Please link to source.

*Total number of cases listed above, who were hospitalized.
*Total number of cases listed above who are still in the hospital.
*Total number of cases listed above who died.
*Total number of CONFIRMED measles cases for California in 2014.
*Total number of CONFIRMED measles cases for California in 2013.
Thank you"

Here is the type of data collected on each Disney/measles case:

"Information to collect
The following data are epidemiologically important and should be collected in the course of case investigation. Additional information also may be collected at the direction of the state health department.

Demographic information
Name
Address
Date of birth
Age
Sex
Ethnicity
Race

Country of birth
If not born in the United States, length of time in the United States

Reporting source
County
Date frst reported

Clinical
Symptoms onset date; including date of rash onset
Prodromal symptoms (i.e., cough, coryza, conjunctivitis, fever [note highest temperature])
Rash duration
Rash presentation
Symptoms
Hospitalizations
Complications
Outcome (case survived or died)
Date of death
Results of postmortem examination
Death certifcate diagnoses
Laboratory
Serological test results
Virus isolation tests: type of specimen, date of collection of specimen for PCR and culture
Vaccination status (including postexposure prophylaxis)
Number of doses of measles vaccine received
Dates of measles vaccinations
Name of manufacturer
Lot numbers of vaccines
If not vaccinated, reason
Epidemiological
Transmission setting (e.g., household, school, health care setting, event)
Source of infection (e.g., age, vaccination status, relationship to case, contact with probable or confrmed case, or contact with immigrants or travelers, or international travel)
Import status (indigenous, international import, or out-of-state import, linked or traceable to an international importations)
Residency (e.g., Did the case reside in the U.S.?)
Travel history in the three weeks prior to symptom onset
Number of contacts
Postexposure prophylaxis (including whether measles immunoglobulin was administered, with dates of administration)"
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/surv-manual/chpt07-measles.html

Wow, Toto has proven she can cut and paste, but now can she come up with a coherent comment. So far the evidence suggests that is impossible.

Toto, if you want those answers go to the offices of the California Department of Public Health and demand them immediately. I am sure that they have very nice security guards.

If the 51 cases are "confirmed", there will now be 51 individuals with "natural" immunity to future cases of measles. Lets track the "unvaccinated" cases and see if they get autism, autoimmune diseases, or a second case of measles.
CDC, THIS IS A GREAT CASE STUDY GROUP.!
Let's get Dr. William Thompson and Dr. Hooker to head up the study. Then we know it would be legit. DR. GERBERDING: PLEASE DO NOT FUND THIS STUDY. Thank you.

Toto -

I want drive-thru $0.05 beer, and I've probably wanted it longer than you have been alive.

Life is just one disappointing thing after another.

HDB @118.

That deserves at least a golf clap. Well played, sir.

By palindrom (not verified) on 17 Jan 2015 #permalink

Toto,

I’m still waiting for you to post the individual stats on one page, with links to the appropriate state health department.
PUT UP OR SH## UP.

Why would any of us encourage you in pursuit of yet another red herring? Vaccination has resulted in a more than 99% fall in the incidence of measles. Falling vaccination rates result in outbreaks like the current one, which are a threat to the small percentage of the vaccinated who did not develop immunity as well as to the unvaccinated. About 1% of those who are fully vaccinated against measles are still susceptible, so of course some of those that succumb will be fully vaccinated.

That's why keeping vaccination rates high is so important. When you add those who don't develop immunity to those who refuse vaccination you end up with enough non-immune people to fuel an outbreak.

Why can't you just accept this instead of trying to find something in this shameful state of affairs that will justify your mistaken beliefs? I think you realize that you and your fellow antivaxxers bear some responsibility for this, and this is why you are so desperate to exonerate yourself and blame the vaccines in this increasingly ludicrous manner.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 17 Jan 2015 #permalink

Toto--

How much are you prepared to pay for the research you're requesting?

Some of that information is available, but sorting and collating it in the form you want, rather than the form that it's been published in, looks tedious and time-consuming. That you could probably get, if you were willing to pay for it.

Other bits are likely protected by federal law (HIPAA), and some of the information may not have been kept because it's no longer relevant, if it ever was. I would be astonished if anyone knew the lot numbers for my measles vaccines, for example; they may have been recorded at the time, but the most recent was thirty years ago, and I very much doubt the student health service still has that paperwork.

As a matter of fact, I am an expert on the news media and the way it handles scientific issues.

One interesting aspect of the Disneyland outbreak is that the initial accounts list one fully vaccinated person among the first group of cases. When you stop to think about it, this is kind of analogous with the way that false positive test results can overwhelm real positives for a condition in which there are a limited percentage of real positives. We are looking at a small percent of false positives or a small percent of vaccinated people who catch measles, but they represent a very large pool they are being drawn from. In the Disneyland outbreak, there were probably several hundred fully vaccinated (or old enough to have had measles in their youth) people who were exposed to patient zero. Maybe lots more, considering that some lines at Disneyland zigzag back and forth, putting opposing directions right next to each other. We are told that a small number of fully vaccinated people are less than fully immune, and what we have seen so far is that the percentage of actual cases of immunized people getting measles seems to be extremely low.

In other words, this may have been a real world experiment in which we find that the vaccine is actually pretty good, and that the fraction of people who don't gain immunity from vaccination is really quite low, perhaps even lower than that one percent estimate that we keep reading. I'm not the expert on this topic, and I don't know how good that 99 percent fully immune vs 1 percent failure rate actually is. Perhaps somebody here can make that more clear.

BLOCKBUSTER revelation from 1967:

EPIDEMILOLOGIC BASIS FOR ERADICATION OF MEASLES IN 1967
Vol. 82, No. 3, March 1967 (Emphasis mine)
"FOR CENTURIES the measles virus has maintained
a remarkably STABLE ecological relationship with man. The clinical disease is a characteristic syndrome of notable constancy and only MODERATE severity. Complications are INFREQUENT, and, with adequate medical care, FATALITY IS RARE. Susceptibility to the disease after the waning of maternal immunity is universal; immunity following recovery is solid and LIFELONG IN DURATION. p. 253 (1)

The infection spreads by direct contact from person to person and by the airborne route among susceptibles congregated in enclosed spaces. The disease occurs ubiquitously throughout the world in periodic CYCLES of considerable REGULARITY. With the exception of a few extremely isolated population groups,
essentially ALL children experience the infection
sometime before adolescence.The RESERVOIR OF INFECTION IS MAN HIMSELF. No nonhuman sources of infection are known. CHRONIC CARRIERS DO NOT EXIST."

".....Until very recently, this deep RESPECT for the biological balance of the human race with the measles virus had become accepted doctrine. ERADICATION WAS NOT CONSIDERED TO BE SCIENTIFICALLY TENABLE." p.254 (2)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1919891/pdf/pubhealthrepori…

THESE SCIENTISTS AGREE WITH TOTO. Toto remembers those days first hand. The new scientists have created this pharma-DISASTER. The results are FAR WORSE than getting the measles.

PRIDE GOES BEFORE DESTRUCTION:
"With the isolation of the MEASLES VIRUS and the development
and extensive field testing of several potent and effective VACCINES, the tools are at hand to ERADICATE the infection. With the general application of these tools during the coming months, eradication can be achieved in this country IN THE YEAR 1967. This paper states the epidemiologic basis in support of this statement, specifies the essential conditions, and outlines the priorities for attaining this goal."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1919891/pdf/pubhealthrepori… p. 254 (2)

EPIC FAIL. We traded the natural for WITCH'S BREW.

Saturday night Bible study: Interesting choices

9And the LORD spake unto Gad, David's seer, saying, 10Go and tell David, saying, Thus saith the LORD, I offer thee three things: choose thee one of them, that I may do it unto thee. 11So Gad came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee 12Either three years' famine; or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee; or else three days the sword of the LORD, even the PESTILENCE, in the land, and the angel of the LORD destroying throughout all the coasts of Israel. Now therefore advise thyself what word I shall bring again to him that sent me. 13And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let me fall now into the hand of the LORD; for very GREAT are his MERCIES: but LET ME NOT FALL INTO THE HAND OF MAN." (Emphasis mine)
Judgment for David's Sin
(2 Samuel 24:10-14)
http://biblehub.com/kjv/1_chronicles/21.htm

Bob G.: "One interesting aspect of the Disneyland outbreak is that the initial accounts list one fully vaccinated person among the first group of cases."

I think I read that this person was at least fifty years old, and therefore too old to have received the MMR vaccine which was introduced in 1971. At least one or two of the vaccines introduced in 1963 were not terribly affected, so this person could have been vulnerable. Dr. John Snyder who blogs at Science Based Medicine describes getting measles after medical school during the 1989/91 measles epidemic. Later in the comments he said he was vaccinated in 1966, he'd had titers done but no one at looked at them!

And as you note the MMR is not perfect, just after two doses it is "only" 99% effective. That leaves about one in a hundred who are vulnerable. Since one can come in near contact with hundreds to thousands of people while in those long windy lines at Disneyland, it is a testament to herd immunity that only fully vaccinated person was infected.

Because even if there were only ten thousand fully vaccinated people, if all of them were at some point near the index case that could mean a hundred measles cases among the fully vaccinated. (by the way that is a very low estimate, a bit of Googling shows daily Disneyland attendance is somewhere between forty and seventy thousand, but they are estimates because Disney does not release that data)

Bob G: I have the package insert for the current vaccine used in the United States (MMR II), and it provides the results of the multiple double blind field trials which were submitted to the FDA before licensing, which confirm the effectiveness of one dose of the MMR II vaccine and the effectiveness of the second dose of the MMR II vaccine.

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedPr…

My children, born in 1970 and 1976 received one dose of measles vaccine and when the CDC recommended the second dose of MMR vaccine, they received the second dose.

Let's not forget there might be increased risk of transmission for many of the Disneyland attractions which are indoors. Reliable estimates put that risk at 90 % when an infected individual is in a small enclosed space with vaccine-naive individuals, such as a doctor's waiting room or a hospital examination room. The virus is highy transmissible.

@ Vicki
Reread my post. I have repeatedly asked for the FIRST list of relevant questions to be answered. The second list is to document that the health authorities record data that would answer those questions, plus much more detail. They absolutely keep all of that info in a data base, including vaccine lot number. Early paper records were converted when VAERS was set up. Any journalist can get the answers to the questions I ask. They don't want to/aren't allowed to by their funders. These news articles are propaganda to set apart those who wish not to inject foreign toxins into their healthy bodies, because of unproven safety or effectiveness, and paint them as the modern leper. It's all about the money:
"The CDC currently spends over $4 billion purchasing vaccines from drug makers (per year), and wants to increase that amount by over a half billion for 2015" - See more at: http://healthimpactnews.com/2014/cdcs-purchase-of-4-billion-of-vaccines…

The true history of the measles vaccine can be read here. It records the scientists' pride and ignorance which led to the EPIC FAILURE in 1967. It continues to this day, with horrible consequences.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1919891/pdf/pubhealthrepori…

Krebiozen
#123

"Vaccination has resulted in a more than 99% fall in the incidence of measles." Cite source. Irrelevant to Disneyland case.

"Falling vaccination rates result in outbreaks like the current one, which are a threat to the small percentage of the vaccinated who did not develop immunity as well as to the unvaccinated."
Cite source. Irrelevant to Disneyland case.

"About 1% of those who are fully vaccinated against measles are still susceptible, so of course some of those that succumb will be fully vaccinated." Cite source. Irrelevant to Disneyland case.

"That’s why keeping vaccination rates high is so important. When you add those who don’t develop immunity to those who refuse vaccination you end up with enough non-immune people to fuel an outbreak."
Cite source. Irrelevant to Disneyland case.

"this shameful state of affairs"
What shameful state of affairs? Irrelevant to Disneyland case.

"antivaxxers bear some responsibility for this"
For what? Irrelevant to Disneyland case.

You haven't given me the scientific data I requested. YOU ADMIT IGNORANCE REGARDING THE DISNEYLAND "OUTBREAK"
Your comments are WORTHLESS, without factual basis.

These scientists didn't get it right in 1967 either. EPIC FAIL.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1919891/pdf/pubhealthrepori…

A new joke from Toto

I don’t know who Judith is, but I like her informed post:

So much informed she is listing both "human albumin" and "human serum albumin".
Since humans don't lay eggs, the major (if not only) type of human albumin is the one in the serum.
So good they say it twice.

"dibasic potassium phosphate, dibasic sodium phosphate, monobasic potassium phosphate, sodium bicarbonate, sorbitol, sucrose, potassium chloride"

In order to consistently avoid all of these nasty chemicals, I suppose Judith doesn't give bananas, nuts or other fruits to her children . And doesn't let them drink any form of soda.
(and no, ingesting vs injecting doesn't make any difference - the mentioned chemicals are not going to be "detox'd" by the liver. Ingested salts and sugars all go into the bloodstream)

By Helianthus (not verified) on 17 Jan 2015 #permalink

Two points. If you are not immunized and you are exposed to the measles virus, then herd immunity won't protect you. Herd immunity is the characteristic that makes it less likely that you will be exposed from another sick person in the first place, and depends on the original sick person's virions not being able to find a proper victim who will then transmit to you. If you are exposed, you will get the measles but if everyone around you is immunized, you are unlikely to pass the virus along, because there is no susceptible human within sneezing distance. That part involves herd immunity, because you won't give the virus to the family next door, and they won't give it to their neighbors on the other side, so you won't start an epidemic of your own.

More television news: As we have heard, there are a couple of sisters in Pasadena, one of whom came down with the measles. At first, the other (non vaccinated) sister didn't want to stay home under quarantine, but on the news tonight, she explained that she will stay around her home until the incubation period is over. The reason she gave the interviewer is that she has been getting all kinds of phone calls, and staying at home will protect her from being picked on. She made clear that being bullied is what caused her to be compliant.

I would call this a win for the public health service and the news media, and perhaps even a few doctors.

My takeaway from the case numbers so far: As a society, we are well into the high 90s for immunity in the whole population. It has to be this high, or else there would have been lots more measles cases in the first round of infection. I
I don't know if this is the net result of lots of communities with high compliance and only a few upscale communities that push the rules, but our society is lucky to have as limited a first round as this one. My guess is that the vaccine is better than it has been given credit for. Another possibility is that kids who get the shot go on to shed attenuated active virus which is picked up by everyone around them and confers some immunity itself. I don't think my pro-vaccine colleagues will necessarily like that scenario, and admittedly, the insert linked to above does't offer a strong case that this happens.

Whooping Cough Outbreak Involved 90% VACCINATED Kids

"Vermont has declared a statewide epidemic of whooping cough that started in 2012 and has continued into the year 2013. To date there has been a total of 612 confirmed cases of pertussis of which 90% have been vaccinated against the bacteria with the Tdap vaccine. The New England Journal of Medicine released a study that parallels this outbreak showing that of the confirmed cases of whooping cough the majored of them, 80%, had received multiple Tdap vaccinations most receiving 5 or 6 doses. The mainstream media have decided the only way to prevent the spread of the bacteria is to have everyone get their vaccinations refusing to acknowledge the overwhelming connection between vaccinated patients and outbreak victims. These vaccines have managed to damage and weaken the immune systems of children and adults leading to epidemic levels of fully vaccinated people becoming sick and contagious."
http://experimentalvaccines.org/2013/01/14/whooping-cough-outbreak-invo…

UNBELIEVABLE!
Only 19 of 252 Pertussis cases in above Vermont outbreak had 0 doses of vaccine. 74 cases had 6 doses. 83 had 5 doses.
http://www.vaxchoicevt.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/vt-pertussis.jpg

Of course, this story was buried because vaccines are ALWAYS safe and effective.

Bob G. This may not be the end of the measles outbreak associated with exposures at Disneyland.

There are rare reports of rubella vaccine virus shed in breast milk (women who are already pregnant are tested for the presence of M-M-R antibodies during their first trimester and if negative, they are given the MMR vaccine before they leave the delivery hospital).

MMR vaccine and varicella vaccine should not be given to women who plan to become pregnant or who are pregnant. The CDC established the MMR Pregnancy Registry years ago and added Varicella vaccine after that vaccine was licensed, to that registry and no untoward outcomes have been attributed to the administration of those vaccines immediately before conception or after conception:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3093587/

I've got to wonder how many more cases of measles will be reported from the Philippines, now that Pope Francis officiated at an outdoor mass for six million people.

Of course, this story was buried because vaccines are ALWAYS safe and effective.

Nope. We never said this.

Depending on the vaccine type, efficiency varies between 60-99%. More like 60% with some flu vaccines, more like 95% with measles vaccine.
For the curious reader looking for an explanation devoid of fallacies, the reason why the majority of sick people are vaccinated is because the unvaccinated people are a minority.

Take 1000 people. Give the vaccine to 990 of them.
Let's say the vaccine is efficient at 90%
So you have:
10 non-vaccinated people.
99 vaccinated people for whose the vaccine didn't work.
And 891 people protected by the vaccine.
If these 1000 people are infected by the pathogen the vaccine is protecting against, you will have the 10 non-vaccinated and the 99 vaccine-didn't -take people getting sick.

In this theoretical example, 90% of people getting sick were vaccinated (99 over 109). But 90% of the vaccinated people didn't get sick.
Numbers are fun, aren't they? Without context, they are meaningless.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 18 Jan 2015 #permalink

@lilady
"I’ve got to wonder how many more cases of measles will be reported from the Philippines, now that Pope Francis officiated at an outdoor mass for six million people."

What are the official vaccine surveillance stats on the Philippines? I'm sure you've seen them or you wouldn't be commenting. The Philippines is usually well vaccinated since we had a military base there. Interestingly, the Philippine govt. had just told the U.S. "no" for renewing the contract, then just days later they were slammed with a devastating typhoon. It was after this that the measles outbreak occurred. Sanitation and health in the local population was greatly undermined. The U.S. military was there right after the storm. Vaccines were certaily available.

"Q: Why do people in the U.S. still catch measles if the disease has been eliminated?

A: Measles is imported into the U.S. from places where the disease still occurs, including Europe, Africa and Asia. Last year, the U.S. saw a record 644 measles infections in 27 states. The majority of the infections were brought in from the Philippines, which experienced a measles epidemic."
http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/wireStory/qa-measles-pops-outbreak-linked-…

I seem to have a backlog of unpublished posts.
Any reason? This would make a nice video collection.

Ah, yes, who could forget this fantasy?

To Censor:
I hope you realize that I videotape myself making my posts live. I then show all of my censored posts. It makes [sic] a nice upload for anti-vax sites. You’ve been a great help today. SMILE FOR THE CAMERA!

Strange that those never appear anywhere.

Thanks to AoA and Rescue Post, we have this decision from the U.S. Court of Appeals

I actually pulled down quite a bit more of the case yesterday, but I'm waiting for archive-dot-org to mirror the stuff (it will be here eventually).

Spoiler: Finn cites this in a reply brief, although she links to another site (which happens to omit the author, whom she nonetheless identifies in the obligatory list at the beginning) for the content.

Oh, and these three have been updated as well.

Remember, everybody in the U.S. get 15 free PACER dollars every quarter.* Install RECAP and take the advice of Joe Hill.

* With a $3 billing cap regardless of document size in many courts, including the Second Circuit.

Narad, thanks for the update on Brian Hooker's claim before the Vaccine Court for his child's vaccine(s)-induced-autism. I lost count on how many motions Hooker and his wife have made before the Court to delay the actual presentation of evidence before the Court Master...12 years since the filing of the claim and they still don't have the complete medical records? I call bullsh!t on Hooker and his wife and their bullsh!t claim.

"MMR vaccine and varicella vaccine should not be given to women who plan to become pregnant or who are pregnant."

This means that women of reproductive age should never get the vaccine. If your "contraceptive" fails, you will have criminally infected your unborn child.

Is that what you advocate, Nolady?

@Nolady
'"The right to practice religion freely does not include liberty to expose the community or the child to communicable disease or the latter to ill health or death.'”
http://www.rescuepost.com/files/phillips_per-curium-opinion_01072015.pdf

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT A VACCINATION DOES. The communicable disease causing virus is injected directly into the individual. The results are unpredictable because of age, added ingredients, health of individual when injected, the individual's immune response, and number and kind of viruses injected at one time. Monetary payouts by "vaccine courts" prove that the government agrees that vaccines do cause harm and that the harmed individual is worthy of monetary compensation. Vaccine surveillance data proves that individuals can get the very disease the vaccine was intended to protect them from. Yet, according to the law, only the unvaccinated would be quarantined in a public school outbreak. This is obvious discrimination. Also, vaccination does not equal immunization. Just because antibodies are produced, doesn't always mean the individual has immunity to a real world virus exposure. The centrally controlled vaccine "program" is subject to fraud, corruption, and biowarfare because of lack of independent over-site and billions of dollars in revenue at stake. Those that manufacture the vaccines have no liability for the end product.
OBVIOUSLY, THEY DON'T THINK IT IS SAFE.

THE GOVERNMENT CAN'T EAT IT'S CAKE AND HAVE IT TOO.

@Narad
"Strange that those never appear anywhere."
Paranoid, much? Kind'a like Candid Camera.

I can truthfully say that Orac saw the error of his ways and posted all my comments. No need to publicize.

BTW, here's a good laugh:
Vaccinologist makes surprise visit to Candid Camera...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uA0DHzoPpY

@Nolady
"My children, born in 1970 and 1976"
There's the source of your ignorance. Your two weren't guinea pigs for the 1986 - 2000 "Age of Autism" vaccine schedule. Untested, full of mercury as never before, more injected viruses than ever before, abominable results, coverup.
Sit this one out, old hag. You are clueless about what happened to many of these children.

I lost count on how many motions Hooker and his wife have made before the Court to delay the actual presentation....

Well, I don't think they were trying to delay the proceedings; the take-home point is that the Office of Special Masters is extremely lenient when it comes to claimants getting their act together.

However, if you look more closely at the docket, all of the extensions since September have been granted to HHS. Hooker's presentation of evidence was completed last July.

@Hellianthus
'"Of course, this story was buried because vaccines are ALWAYS safe and effective."

Nope. We never said this."'

Tell that to Nolady. She is cheering the New York ruling against unvaccinated students in public school.
The basis of the court's ruling ASSUMES THAT VACCINES ARE ALWAYS SAFE AND EFFECTIVE.
You can't eat your cake and have it too.

HAVE YOU SEEN THIS MONKEY? It's possibly still on the loose!

Monkey missing from Yerkes National Primate Research Center

Posted: Jun 22, 2011 9:38 PM EDT
Updated: Jul 21, 2011 9:15 PM EDT
LAWRENCEVILLE, GA (CBS46) -
CBS Atlanta was first to report on Wednesday that there is a monkey missing from the Yerkes Primate Research Center. That's on Taylor Lane in Lawrenceville.

On Thursday PETA called for the U.S. Department of Agriculture to investigate.

The center is set back in the woods, away from a main road, but it's in the midst of neighborhoods.

"Couple hundred yards, real close. Those houses across the street, its right behind those homes," said neighbor Nelson Downing.

The missing monkey is a 2-year-old female. She is about 5.5 pounds. According to the center, most rhesus monkeys are born with the monkey forms of HIV and the herpes B virus, which can be deadly. This monkey was specially bred so she does not have any diseases. Still, Downing is concerned.

"We weren't notified about it. This is serious. We have animals, small dogs," said Nelson.

When reporter Jennifer Mayerle asked a spokesperson from the center since this has happened once, could it happen again?

Their answer, "anything's possible."
Read more: http://www.cbs46.com/story/14960350/monkey-missing-from-yerkes-national…
MY COMMENT: This is also within a mile or so of an elementary school and a public high school. See Google maps.

STILL ON THE LOOSE?...4 years later!

"Missing monkey search called off

Story by Tyler Estep
Saturday, August 20, 2011
Lawrenceville — The monkey business is over; two months after a rhesus macaque went missing from a Lawrenceville research facility, the search has been officially called off.

During a June 15 veterinary check of macaques at the Lawrenceville field office of Emory University's Yerkes National Primate Research Center, the monkey known as "Ep13" was discovered to be missing. Subsequent weeks saw officials notify residents living near the facility on Taylor Lane, emphasize that the animal was not infected with any disease and later say that the monkey was believed dead.

Ep13 has not been found, but Yerkes released a statement this week formally calling off the search."

"Effective (Aug. 16), Stuart Zola, PhD, director of the Yerkes National Primate Research Center, has ended the search to locate Ep13," the statement said. "Despite extensive effort by the Yerkes staff, we have not been able to locate this research animal."

"The incident drew the ire of many residents in the area near Collins Hill High School, some saying they weren't notified and expressing concerns that nobody was alerted until almost a week after officials noticed Ep13's disappearance.

In July, 17 Lawrenceville residents signed a formal complaint with Gwinnett County's department of planning and development, calling for the Yerkes field office to be closed."

'A possible escape route for the monkey was never discovered.

Newbern said Friday that Yerkes was "consulting with several vendors" regarding additional microchip technology to "facilitate more frequent and efficient tracking of the animals." Increased video surveillance is also a priority for the near future, she said."'
http://m.gwinnettdailypost.com/news/2011/aug/20/missing-monkey-search-c…

WHAT?????? IN 2011, THESE ANIMALS WERE NOT CHIPPED?
They've been chipping pet dogs and cats since THE EARLY '90's!

DO YOU THINK IF THIS MONKEY WAS LOADED WITH HIV OR OTHER DISEASES, CDC WOULD ACTUALLY SAY SO??????????? Yeah, right.

I see she belongs to the group of research scientists who use a single textbook as their main source of information.

This is the new “expert witness/doctor” who is set to testify in the Hooker case…

That would be no, no, and no, although the last two are redundant.

ChrisP: I dropped the mother lode of autism quackery in your lap...just a google search away. :-)

TOTO'S TRUTH IN MODERATION ROUNDUP
(cameras rolling)

oto

January 18, 2015
Your comment is awaiting moderation.

@lilady
“I’ve got to wonder how many more cases of measles will be reported from the Philippines, now that Pope Francis officiated at an outdoor mass for six million people.”

What are the official vaccine surveillance stats on the Philippines? I’m sure you’ve seen them or you wouldn’t be commenting. The Philippines is usually well vaccinated since we had a military base there. Interestingly, the Philippine govt. had just told the U.S. “no” for renewing the contract, then just days later they were slammed with a devastating typhoon. It was after this that the measles outbreak occurred. Sanitation and health in the local population was greatly undermined. The U.S. military was there right after the storm. Vaccines were certaily available.

“Q: Why do people in the U.S. still catch measles if the disease has been eliminated?

A: Measles is imported into the U.S. from places where the disease still occurs, including Europe, Africa and Asia. Last year, the U.S. saw a record 644 measles infections in 27 states. The majority of the infections were brought in from the Philippines, which experienced a measles epidemic.”
http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/wireStory/qa-measles-pops-outbreak-linked-…

Toto

January 18, 2015
Your comment is awaiting moderation.

“MMR vaccine and varicella vaccine should not be given to women who plan to become pregnant or who are pregnant.”

This means that women of reproductive age should never get the vaccine. If your “contraceptive” fails, you will have criminally infected your unborn child.

Is that what you advocate, Nolady?

Toto

January 18, 2015
Your comment is awaiting moderation.

@Nolady
‘”The right to practice religion freely does not include liberty to expose the community or the child to communicable disease or the latter to ill health or death.’”
http://www.rescuepost.com/files/phillips_per-curium-opinion_01072015.pdf

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT A VACCINATION DOES. The communicable disease causing virus is injected directly into the individual. The results are unpredictable because of age, added ingredients, health of individual when injected, the individual’s immune response, and number and kind of viruses injected at one time. Monetary payouts by “vaccine courts” prove that the government agrees that vaccines do cause harm and that the harmed individual is worthy of monetary compensation. Vaccine surveillance data proves that individuals can get the very disease the vaccine was intended to protect them from. Yet, according to the law, only the unvaccinated would be quarantined in a public school outbreak. This is obvious discrimination. Also, vaccination does not equal immunization. Just because antibodies are produced, doesn’t always mean the individual has immunity to a real world virus exposure. The centrally controlled vaccine “program” is subject to fraud, corruption, and biowarfare because of lack of independent over-site and billions of dollars in revenue at stake. Those that manufacture the vaccines have no liability for the end product.
OBVIOUSLY, THEY DON’T THINK IT IS SAFE.

THE GOVERNMENT CAN’T EAT IT’S CAKE AND HAVE IT TOO.

Toto

Everywhere
January 18, 2015
Your comment is awaiting moderation.

@Narad
“Strange that those never appear anywhere.”
Paranoid, much? Kind’a like Candid Camera.

I can truthfully say that Orac saw the error of his ways and posted all my comments. No need to publicize.

BTW, here’s a good laugh:
Vaccinologist makes surprise visit to Candid Camera…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uA0DHzoPpY

Toto

On the beach
January 18, 2015
Your comment is awaiting moderation.

Q: Where do surviving retired Yerkes Primate Center employees go?

A. Some have found employment in the security industry on the West Coast…..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHmD5GtnzF8

Toto

January 18, 2015
Your comment is awaiting moderation.

@Nolady
“My children, born in 1970 and 1976″
There’s the source of your ignorance. Your two weren’t guinea pigs for the 1986 – 2000 “Age of Autism” vaccine schedule. Untested, full of mercury as never before, more injected viruses than ever before, abominable results, coverup.
Sit this one out, old hag. You are clueless about what happened to many of these children.

Toto

January 18, 2015
Your comment is awaiting moderation.

@Hellianthus
‘”Of course, this story was buried because vaccines are ALWAYS safe and effective.”

Nope. We never said this.”‘

Tell that to Nolady. She is cheering the New York ruling against unvaccinated students in public school.
The basis of the court’s ruling ASSUMES THAT VACCINES ARE ALWAYS SAFE AND EFFECTIVE.
You can’t eat your cake and have it too.

Toto

January 18, 2015
Your comment is awaiting moderation.

HAVE YOU SEEN THIS MONKEY? It’s possibly still on the loose!

Monkey missing from Yerkes National Primate Research Center

Posted: Jun 22, 2011 9:38 PM EDT
Updated: Jul 21, 2011 9:15 PM EDT
LAWRENCEVILLE, GA (CBS46) –
CBS Atlanta was first to report on Wednesday that there is a monkey missing from the Yerkes Primate Research Center. That’s on Taylor Lane in Lawrenceville.

On Thursday PETA called for the U.S. Department of Agriculture to investigate.

The center is set back in the woods, away from a main road, but it’s in the midst of neighborhoods.

“Couple hundred yards, real close. Those houses across the street, its right behind those homes,” said neighbor Nelson Downing.

The missing monkey is a 2-year-old female. She is about 5.5 pounds. According to the center, most rhesus monkeys are born with the monkey forms of HIV and the herpes B virus, which can be deadly. This monkey was specially bred so she does not have any diseases. Still, Downing is concerned.

“We weren’t notified about it. This is serious. We have animals, small dogs,” said Nelson.

When reporter Jennifer Mayerle asked a spokesperson from the center since this has happened once, could it happen again?

Their answer, “anything’s possible.”
Read more: http://www.cbs46.com/story/14960350/monkey-missing-from-yerkes-national…
MY COMMENT: This is also within a mile or so of an elementary school and a public high school. See Google maps.

STILL ON THE LOOSE?…4 years later!

“Missing monkey search called off

Story by Tyler Estep
Saturday, August 20, 2011
Lawrenceville — The monkey business is over; two months after a rhesus macaque went missing from a Lawrenceville research facility, the search has been officially called off.

During a June 15 veterinary check of macaques at the Lawrenceville field office of Emory University’s Yerkes National Primate Research Center, the monkey known as “Ep13″ was discovered to be missing. Subsequent weeks saw officials notify residents living near the facility on Taylor Lane, emphasize that the animal was not infected with any disease and later say that the monkey was believed dead.

Ep13 has not been found, but Yerkes released a statement this week formally calling off the search.”

“Effective (Aug. 16), Stuart Zola, PhD, director of the Yerkes National Primate Research Center, has ended the search to locate Ep13,” the statement said. “Despite extensive effort by the Yerkes staff, we have not been able to locate this research animal.”

“The incident drew the ire of many residents in the area near Collins Hill High School, some saying they weren’t notified and expressing concerns that nobody was alerted until almost a week after officials noticed Ep13’s disappearance.

In July, 17 Lawrenceville residents signed a formal complaint with Gwinnett County’s department of planning and development, calling for the Yerkes field office to be closed.”

‘A possible escape route for the monkey was never discovered.

Newbern said Friday that Yerkes was “consulting with several vendors” regarding additional microchip technology to “facilitate more frequent and efficient tracking of the animals.” Increased video surveillance is also a priority for the near future, she said.”‘
http://m.gwinnettdailypost.com/news/2011/aug/20/missing-monkey-search-c…

WHAT?????? IN 2011, THESE ANIMALS WERE NOT CHIPPED?
They’ve been chipping pet dogs and cats since THE EARLY ’90’s!

DO YOU THINK IF THIS MONKEY WAS LOADED WITH HIV OR OTHER DISEASES, CDC WOULD ACTUALLY SAY SO??????????? Yeah, right.

ChrisP: I dropped the mother lode of autism quackery in your lap…just a google search away.

Just when I think it is impossible to get any quackier about autism, something else comes along.

But why oh why would Hooker team himself up with a nutcase like this? Don't any of them ever look back at the multitudinous court cases that get tossed out with the experts being castigated without wondering about getting better quality experts?

These questions are entirely rhetorical mind you.

@Toto
Alright, seriously. I told you who was responsible for managing the current outbreak. They might have quite a few reasons for not publishing every data at once (we are not in CSI, lab results are not available in the hour ; besides you yourself showed that confirming a measles case is quite a lot of work)
Why don't you just contact them and ask the closest sources your questions ?

The basis of the court’s ruling ASSUMES THAT VACCINES ARE ALWAYS SAFE AND EFFECTIVE.

No, it correctly concludes that Patricia Finn presented a completely incompetent appeal as a follow-up to her trademark failure before the court of first impression.

@Narad
“Strange that those never appear anywhere.”
Paranoid, much? Kind’a like Candid Camera.

I can truthfully say that Orac saw the error of his ways and posted all my comments. No need to publicize.

Classic. It's like Festinger's UFO cult; they were the only people in the world who believed in the upcoming apocalypse, and when the real world provided exactly ZERO evidence to support their predictions, they salvaged their perception by claiming their actions had averted the apocalypse.

I am interested, vaguely, in what Toto would present as evidence that could falsify its idea that it is important enough to censor. Of course, that would presume that it can even understand the principle of falsification.

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 19 Jan 2015 #permalink

Toto:

@Narad
“Strange that those never appear anywhere.”
Paranoid, much? Kind’a like Candid Camera.

I can truthfully say that Orac saw the error of his ways and posted all my comments. No need to publicize.

That's good. The Internet might've been destroyed from the terminal boredom such a video would impose. Then again, you might be able to start a new reality TV show in Norway. They've already got one showing paint drying in real time. I am not kidding. By contrast, watching you type stuff into a computer would be an absolute thriller.

BTW, all posts with several URLs in them go into automatic moderation. It's to prevent spamming by advertizing bots, which post links to their products. Length may also be a trigger, and whatever else ScienceBlogs' IT department feels is suggestive of a spam-bot. I run a blog of my own, and that's actually a big problem. Even my blog, which hardly anybody reads, gets hit regularly by spammers, so I'm sure Orac has a ton to sort through every day.

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 19 Jan 2015 #permalink

Toto,
You are an endless fount of wrongness.

The Philippines is usually well vaccinated since we had a military base there.

Not true, in 2013 only 53% of children had their second measles vaccine by the recommended age (PDF). That's well below the threshold for herd immunity.

The majority of the infections were brought in from the Philippines, which experienced a measles epidemic.”

Because of its poor vaccine coverage, obviously.

“MMR vaccine and varicella vaccine should not be given to women who plan to become pregnant or who are pregnant.”
This means that women of reproductive age should never get the vaccine. If your “contraceptive” fails, you will have criminally infected your unborn child.

Firstly, by "women who plan to become pregnant" they mean women who imminently plan to get pregnant, not all women of child-bearing age. Secondly, vaccination has reduced the incidence of congenital rubella syndrome from 7,000 cases each year in 1962-65 to less than one case per year. Are you seriously suggesting that it would be better for pregnant women and their unborn children not to have vaccine-induced immunity to rubella and varicella (which can also cause congenital abnormalities)?

Vaccine surveillance data proves that individuals can get the very disease the vaccine was intended to protect them from. Yet, according to the law, only the unvaccinated would be quarantined in a public school outbreak. This is obvious discrimination.

Since the vaccinated have taken every measure possible to prevent infection and the great majority of them are immune, this seems reasonable to me. I also note a hint of nirvana fallacy here: car accident data proves that those wearing seat belts can still get injured, yet wearing seat belts is still mandatory in most states.

Also, vaccination does not equal immunization. Just because antibodies are produced, doesn’t always mean the individual has immunity to a real world virus exposure.

The same goes for infection with the wild virus. Both vaccination and wild viral infection are very likely to lead to immunity, though neither is infallible and the latter is far more likely to kill or maim.

Those that manufacture the vaccines have no liability for the end product. OBVIOUSLY, THEY DON’T THINK IT IS SAFE. THE GOVERNMENT CAN’T EAT IT’S CAKE AND HAVE IT TOO.

As you well know the Vaccine Court was set up because frivolous litigation was driving vaccine manufacturers out of the market. You must also be well aware that vaccines are vastly safer than the diseases they prevent. Do you want to go back to pre-vaccine days when hundreds of children died every year from measles, thousands were born with congenital abnormalities from CRS and thousands suffered bacterial meningitis each year, among the other horrible sequelae of VPDs?

Sit this one out, old hag. You are clueless about what happened to many of these children.

Charming as always. I imagine lilady takes insults from you as compliments.

The basis of the court’s ruling ASSUMES THAT VACCINES ARE ALWAYS SAFE AND EFFECTIVE. You can’t eat your cake and have it too.

No it doesn't, any more than seat belt laws assume that they are always safe and effective.

HAVE YOU SEEN THIS MONKEY? It’s possibly still on the loose!

What possible relevance does this story have to anything being discussed here?

WHAT?????? IN 2011, THESE ANIMALS WERE NOT CHIPPED? They’ve been chipping pet dogs and cats since THE EARLY ’90’s!

How would an RFID chip, like those used for dogs and cats, help to track an escaped monkey?

DO YOU THINK IF THIS MONKEY WAS LOADED WITH HIV OR OTHER DISEASES, CDC WOULD ACTUALLY SAY SO??????????? Yeah, right.

Yes, I do. What motive did they have to lie? If someone contracted a disease from this animal and it transpired the CDC had lied about it they would be in deep manure.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 19 Jan 2015 #permalink

HAVE YOU SEEN THIS MONKEY? It’s possibly still on the loose!

Does it have access to a keyboard?

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 19 Jan 2015 #permalink

Cross-posting a comment I just left on Orac's not-so-secret other blog:

Dr. Sears is also very casual about that “well-nourished” in a country where a huge number of people rely partly on food banks to feed their children.

Whether that’s active hostility to the poor or willful blindness, he doesn’t care if poor children get measles and suffer those complications. Those aren’t his patients, after all.

This suggests he’s also willing to watch his anorexic patients die, or more likely, not watch as they’re lying in a hospital somewhere.

Hmmm...a monkey loose in the country? I'd be shocked if it lasted more than a couple of days before it was killed by a predator.

If a hunter had taken it out, we probably would have heard something (hunters just love to brag) - so I'm guessing cougar or some such big cat killed and ate it.

"Hmmm…a monkey loose in the country? I’d be shocked if it lasted more than a couple of days before it was killed by a predator.

If a hunter had taken it out, we probably would have heard something (hunters just love to brag) – so I’m guessing cougar or some such big cat killed and ate it."

LOL! Yerkes is surrounded by huge high-end subdivisions and two LARGE public schools. Suburban Gwinnett COUNTY, not "country". A friend of mine lived there. A roaming pet-eating cougar would also be a front page story. For all we know, the monkey could be biting wild animals and spreading a reservoir of HIV or EBOLA. Remember the Litton connection and the Marburg, Germany incident?

"Four years later, during a U.S. Senate investigation of illegal "biological testing involving human subjects by the Department of Defense," Senators learned that Bionetics, Bionetics Research Laboratories, and Litton Bionetics—an organization which, along with the NCI, administered and provided Dr. Gallo's research funding10,13,15,17-19,22,26 were not only acknowledged DOD biological weapons contractors, but their affiliated Litton Systems, Inc., was among the most frequently contracted institutions involved in biological weapons research and development between 1960 and 1970 (the end of the reported period).23

Additional bio-logical weapons contractors with whom Dr. Gallo and/or his co-workers associated during the late 1960s and early 1970s included the University of Chicago,24 Texas,13 Virginia,25 and Yale,17 Merck and Co. Inc.,20 and Hazelton Laboratory, site of the famous 1989 Marburg-Ebola-like (Reston) virus outbreak.22

NCI staff reports revealed that Litton Bionetics had been granted the service contract to supply all NCI researchers, worldwide, with virtually every primate cancer research material requested, including seed viruses, viral hybrids, cell lines, experimental reagents, and African colony born monkeys including M. mulatta and C. aethiops which were associated with the major monkey AIDS virus outbreaks in California's Davis Lab, and the 1967 Marburg virus outbreaks in three European vaccine production facilities.15-17

Litton Bionetics chief John Landon reported an experiment begun in 1965 when he inoculated 18 monkeys with rhaabdovirus simian—a rabies virus known to cause Ebola-like hemorrhagic fever in monkeys. "Nine [monkeys] died or were transferred," to allied laboratories or vaccine production facilities. This shipment was likely to have started the first hemorrhagic fever "Marburg virus" outbreak among European vaccine laboratory workers in 1967. As noted by the world's leading simian virus expert at the time, Dr. Seymour Kalter, the Marburg virus was apparently manmade.23-25

In fact, Litton Bionetics, the chief military and industrial supplier of primates for cancer virus experimentation during the 1960s and early 1970s, also maintained the colony of the specific genus of monkeys associated with all of the major monkey AIDS virus outbreaks in the United States.23 "
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/supressed_inventions/suppress…

"California Department of Public Health Confirms Measles Cases"
as of 1/7/2015, here are the FACTS:

*7 CONFIRMED cases of measles in California. Type (wild or vaccine derived) not given.

*1 CONFIRMED VACCINE FAILURE.

Out of that whole blathering article, that's it.
http://www.cdph.ca.gov/Pages/NR15-002.aspx

HAVE YOU SEEN THIS MONKEY?

In my mind I hear this in an Inspector Clouseau voice.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 19 Jan 2015 #permalink

EPIC POLIO VACCINE FAILURE IN PHILIPPINES

"No Polio in the Philippines Since 1993, But Mass Polio Vaccination Program Targeted for 500,000 Typhoon Victims Under Age Five

Thursday 05 December 2013

‘In the aftermath of one of the strongest storms to ever strike land, the most dangerous place for children in the Philippines to be right now could very well be the evacuation centers, or living near one.

This past week, the World Health Organization (WHO) and UNICEF began an aggressive program to vaccinate more than 500,000 children with the measles and polio vaccines in the typhoon affected areas of the Philippines. They have already vaccinated more than 30,000 children in Tacolban, one of the worst hit areas.

“It is virtually unprecedented that within two and a half weeks of a disaster of this scale, with this level of devastation and these logistical challenges, that a mass vaccination campaign is already rolling out,” reported Dr. Julie Hall, WHO representative in the Philippines.

The children are being vaccinated for MEASLES AND POLIO, in spite of the fact that measles rates are very low and declining in the Philippines, and that there has NOT been A SINGLE CASE OF POLIO in the PHILIPPINES SINCE 1993.’

Read more …No Polio in the Philippines Since 1993, But Mass Polio Vaccination Program Targeted for 500,000 Typhoon Victims Under Age Five"

Mass MEASLES and Polio Vaccination Program Targeted for 500,000 (Philippine) Typhoon Victims Under Age 5
NOTE: Article from 2013, after Typhoon Yolanda

"The children are being vaccinated for measles and polio, in spite of the fact that MEASLES RATES ARE VERY LOW and declining in the Philippines, and that there has not been a single case of polio in the Philippines since 1993.

In the video below, Heather Papowitz, a senior advisor for UNICEF, states that they are vaccinating children for measles even though they have already been vaccinated for the disease, because previous vaccine campaigns were, “not enough to protect them, so we need to get them vaccinated as soon as possible.”

Is this a statement to the ineffectiveness of measles vaccines that they need to be vaccinated repeatedly, or that somehow typhoon disasters like this require higher doses of the vaccine? By either reasoning, it allows pharmaceutical companies a larger market for their products.

Regarding their goal to vaccinate 500,000 children with the very dangerous oral polio vaccine, she states, “As far as polio, it was already eradicated in the Philippines, so we just want to make sure it doesn’t come back.”

"I lived in the Philippines for several years, and have been through four Super Typhoons. I have also participated in relief operations after natural and man-made disasters. The amount of fraud and corruption that occurs when millions, or even billions, of dollars are being donated for “humanitarian” purposes after a tragedy like this is always a problem, and this appears to me to be a case where pharmaceutical companies are seizing upon the Philippine Typhoon Yolanda tragedy to promote their vaccine agenda.

Pharmaceutical sales are slumping in the U.S., and they are looking for new markets, particularly in the poorer countries. Measles is declining in the Philippines and already rare, and there are no cases of polio. But that may all change now, thanks to this vaccination program that can, ironically, cause the disease for which the vaccine is supposed to prevent, resulting in even more vaccination programs in the future with the claim that these diseases are now returning, thus creating a lucrative market for the western pharmaceutical companies."

- See more at: http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/no-polio-in-the-philippines-since-1993…

HAVE YOU SEEN THIS MONKEY?

The last time I saw it, it was posting incoherent anti-vax comments on ScienceBlogs. Mostly gibberish, by and large...though to be fair, English is probably not its first language.

Heh. This is the new “expert witness/doctor” who is set to testify in the Hooker case…she’s a specialist in whole cell DPT vaccine-induced-autism.

I see that like so many other NVICP petitioners who won't accept the OAP decisions, Hooker is going for some even sloppier incarnation of vaccines-cause-autism. But then again since he'd been relying upon the Geier's thiomersal pseudohypothesis, what's to lose by shifting causation.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 19 Jan 2015 #permalink

My otherwise-healthy husband got really sick last winter with a terrible cough. I made him go to a walk-in clinic, he was told he had a viral upper resp infection and to go home and rest. A day later, his coughing was so bad that he'd vomit. His chest hurt badly, his breathing was laboured, and did I mention the coughing 'til he puked? I drove him to the ER. He spent 3 days in hospital and 4 days on the couch. Sears can suck it.

And I'll just leave this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93ZDOcU2TL4

I can truthfully say that Orac saw the error of his ways and posted all my comments. No need to publicize.

In other words, this was a lie:

I hope you realize that I videotape myself making my posts live. I then show all of my censored posts. It makes a nice upload for anti-vax sites.

Well played, moron.

It's amusing (in a frustrating kind of way) how these crunchy mothers hand wave away 450 deaths from measles because it's "natural" and a small number so "not much to worry about" and blithely insist that no prevention is needed, yet if they heard that any vaccine or medical treatment caused 450 children to die they'd be screaming it from the rooftops and proclaiming it the crime of the century and that heaven and earth needed to be moved to stop it.

I videotape myself making my posts live.
I shudder think what "making my posts" might be a euphemism for.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 19 Jan 2015 #permalink

A friend of mine uses the euphemism "moving furniture" for a certain activity, ever since she used it as an excuse when a downstairs neighbor complained about certain noises when she was in her 20s.

as of 1/7/2015, here are the FACTS

And these are of interest on January 19 why?

For all we know, the monkey could be biting wild animals and spreading a reservoir of HIV or EBOLA.

It was a fυcking rhesus macaque, dipshіt.

And try to figure out what the fυcking 'H' in HIV stands for.

@Narad
"In other words, this was a lie:

"I hope you realize that I videotape myself making my posts live. I then show all of my censored posts. It makes a nice upload for anti-vax sites.

Well played, moron."

What was the date of that post?
I was only speaking of the most recent group on this particular topic.
I never said who I show the video to. Anyone could share the video as they see fit, even "anti-vax" sites. Duh.
Which alphabet ops do you work for? Web crawler, much?
Way to go, N'ad!

@JP
Was your friend "passing wind'?
How embarrassing.

WHAT?????? IN 2011, THESE ANIMALS WERE NOT CHIPPED? They’ve been chipping pet dogs and cats since THE EARLY ’90’s!

How would an RFID chip, like those used for dogs and cats, help to track an escaped monkey?

Well, you wouldn't want to return it to the wrong owner of a lost monkey. But I guess that's what the tattoo was for.

"As you well know the Vaccine Court was set up because frivolous litigation was driving vaccine manufacturers out of the market. You must also be well aware that vaccines are vastly safer than the diseases they prevent."
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ! Don't make me laugh.

REAGAN SIGNS BILL ON DRUG EXPORTS AND PAYMENT FOR VACCINE INJURIES
By ROBERT PEAR, Special to the New York Times
Published: November 15, 1986

"WASHINGTON, Nov. 14— President Reagan today signed a comprehensive health bill designed to promote exports of prescription drugs and to compensate children injured by vaccines."

"Mr. Reagan said he had approved the bill ''with mixed feelings'' because he had ''serious reservations'' about the vaccine compensation program."

'Separation-of-Powers Issue

However, he said there were ''substantial deficiencies'' in the vaccine plan, under which injured people could obtain payments from the Government without proving fault or wrongdoing by the vaccine manufacturer or anyone else."

"The program would be ''administered not by the executive branch, but by the Federal judiciary,'' Mr. Reagan said, calling it an ''unprecedented arrangement'' that was inconsistent with the constitutional requirement for separation of powers among the branches of the Federal Government."

"Mr. Reagan's action came after heavy lobbying in favor of the bill by a broad-based coalition including DRUG COMPANIES, physicians..... "

"Agency Had Urged Veto

The Justice Department had urged a veto of the bill because of its objections to the new system of compensating people injured by vaccines. But Vice President BUSH, Commerce Secretary Malcolm Baldrige and Dr. Otis R. BOWEN, Secretary of Health and Human Services, urged Mr. Reagan to sign it, as did James A. BAKER 3d, Secretary of the Treasury."

'The compensation program would be financed by a new excise tax imposed on each dose of the vaccines for poliomyelitis, diphtheria, whooping cough, tetanus, measles, mumps and rubella. But Congress adjourned this year before it could actually establish the tax, and the compensation program will not take effect until it does so."

"Representative HENRY A. WAXMAN, a California DEMOCRAT who DRAFTED the portion of the bill relating to VACCINES, said he expected Congress to establish the tax ''as quickly as possible next year.''
http://www.nytimes.com/1986/11/15/us/reagan-signs-bill-on-drug-exports-…

LOOKS LIKE THE GIPPER sold our children down the Snake River.

“NCI staff reports revealed that Litton Bionetics had been granted the service contract to supply all NCI researchers, worldwide, with virtually every primate cancer research material requested, including seed viruses, viral hybrids, cell lines, experimental reagents, and African colony born monkeys including M. mulatta and C. aethiops which were associated with the major monkey AIDS virus outbreaks in California's Davis Lab, and the 1967 Marburg virus outbreaks in three European vaccine production facilities.15-17"

Oh, Christ, it's resorted to Leonard Horowitz. Shall we examine references 15–17?

#15: PMID 4340555 (Elsevier). No discernible bearing on anything.

#16: PMID 4342965. See #15.

#17: PMID 4117771. See #16.

MONKEY BUSINESS

"In February 1999 a group of researchers from the University of Alabama 2 announced that they had found a type of SIVcpz that was almost identical to HIV-1. This particular strain was identified in a frozen sample taken from a captive member of the sub-group of chimpanzees known as Pan troglodytes troglodytes ( P. t. troglodytes), which were once common in west-central Africa.

The researchers (led by Paul Sharp of Nottingham University and Beatrice Hahn of the University of Alabama) made the discovery during the course of a 10-year long study into the origins of the virus. They claimed that this sample proved that chimpanzees were the source of HIV-1, and that the virus had at some point crossed species from chimps to humans.

Their final findings were published two years later in Nature magazine 3. In this article, they concluded that wild chimps had been infected simultaneously with two different simian immunodeficiency viruses which had "viral sex" to form a third virus that could be passed on to other chimps and, more significantly, was capable of infecting humans and causing AIDS.

These two different viruses were traced back to a SIV that infected red-capped mangabeys and one found in greater spot-nosed monkeys. They believe that the hybridisation took place inside chimps that had become infected with both strains of SIV after they hunted and killed the two smaller species of monkey.

They also concluded that all three 'groups' of HIV-1 - namely Group M, N and O (see our strains and subtypes page for more information on these) - came from the SIV found in P. t. troglodytes, and that each group represented a separate crossover 'event' from chimps to humans."

- See more at: http://www.avert.org/origin-hiv-aids.htm#sthash.nuH0lyXq.dpuf

Almost forgot:*

African colony born monkeys

Which African monkey colonies?

PUT UP OR SH## UP.

* As Tutu, I reserve the right to expand the list arbitrarily.

#186
@Narad
"It was a fυcking rhesus macaque, dipshіt."
THANKS FOR THE CLARIFICATION. Now I am REALLY worried.

"Bioengineered cytomegalovirus protects monkeys from HIV equivalent"

"A new study by researchers in the US has shown that an ancient virus can be modified to help in the fight against the simian immunodeficiency virus SIV, which is the equivalent in monkeys to HIV in humans.The research team, led by Scott G. Hansen of the Oregon National Primate Research Center and the Vaccine and Gene Therapy Institute, earlier (2011) reported on their research in modified rhesus cytomegalovirus (CMV) strains. These strains belong to a family of viruses that has evolved alongside their mammalian hosts and which affect the T cell immune response. That study showed how the genetically engineered virus expressed simian immunodeficiency virus (SIV) proteins called RhCMV vectors.

These vectors then allowed RHESUS MACAQUES (Macaca mulatta) VACCINATED with the RhCMV to control SIV infection by modifying the T cell responses. The team reported that HALF of the RHESUS MACAQUES they VACCINATED with the RhCMV/SIV vector were able to control SIV INFECTION when challenged with a HIGHLY PATHOGENIC strain."

MOOve over MONKEYS!

Genetically Modified Cattle With Human DNA Might Hold Ebola Cure

"These animals produce very high levels of HUMAN antibody," said Eddie Sullivan, president and CEO of SAb Biotherapeutics, the company that developed the cattle.

The cattle have been genetically engineered with human DNA so that their bodies don't produce cattle antibodies but human antibodies. They're cloned to make a herd of genetically identical, part-human animals. Then they are VACCINATED against various DEADLY DISEASES such as EBOLA. Their bodies produce antibodies in response to these vaccines, and the hope is these antibodies can be used to treat people with the diseases."

IT GETS WORSE.....
"It's not a given that this is going to work for Ebola," said Connie Schmaljohn, a senior research scientist at USAMRIID who's working on both the hantavirus and Ebola projects.

First, the cattle are vaccinated against Ebola, using what's called a DNA vaccine. Then, plasma is removed and the antibodies taken out of the plasma. The antibodies - which are identical to human antibodies - are shipped to USAMRIID labs in Fort Detrick, Maryland for testing.

There, a team has worked in a lLEVELl 4 biosafety lab - the highest level of biosecurity - to first INFECT MICE WITH EBOLA virus, then dose them with antibodies."
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ebola-virus-outbreak/genetically-modif…

What about vaccine failure? What if the cows OR MICE develop a full case of Ebola?
Now we can worry about Frankencows and mice getting out of the pen....

Vast experiments on humans: a forgotten document
by Jon Rappoport
January 19, 2015

"United States General Accounting Office
Testimony
Before the Legislation and National Security Subcommittee,
Committee on Government Operations, House of
Representative

GAO/T-NSIAD-94-266
For Release on Delivery
Expected at
10:00 a.m. EST
Wednesday
September 28, 1994

Human Experimentation
An Overview on Cold War Era Programs

Statement of Frank C. Conahan, Assistant Comptroller General,
National Security and International Affairs Division"

“We are pleased to be here today to discuss the use of humans in tests and experiments conducted for national security purposes by the Department of Defense (DOD) and other agencies between 1940 and 1974.”

“As you requested, we focused our work on defense-affiliated programs that used human test subjects between 1940 and 1974. The programs included tests and experiments conducted or sponsored by the Departments of the Army, the Navy, and the Air Force; the Defense Nuclear Agency; the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA); the Department of Energy; and the Department of Health and Human Services. The tests and experiments involved radiological, chemical, and biological research…”

“…we have identified hundreds of radiological, chemical, and biological tests and experiments in which hundreds of thousands of people were used as test subjects. These tests and experiments often involved hazardous substances such as radiation, blister and nerve agents, biological agents, and lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD). In some cases, basic safeguards to protect people were either not in place or not followed. For example, some tests and experiments were conducted in secret; others involved the use of people without their knowledge or consent or their full knowledge of the risks involved.”

“The effects of the tests and experiments are often difficult to determine. Although some participants suffered immediate acute injuries, and some died, in other cases adverse health problems were not discovered until many years later–often 20 to 30 years or longer.”

“Government testing and experimentation with human subjects continues today because of its importance to national security agencies. For example, the Army’s Medical Research Institute for Infectious Disease uses volunteers in its tests of new vaccines for malaria, hepatitis, and other exotic diseases.”'

MANY MORE QUOTES:
https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2015/01/19/vast-experiments-on-human…

“California Department of Public Health Confirms Measles Cases”
as of 1/7/2015, here are the FACTS:

*7 CONFIRMED cases of measles in California. Type (wild or vaccine derived) not given.

*1 CONFIRMED VACCINE FAILURE.

Out of that whole blathering article, that’s it.
http://www.cdph.ca.gov/Pages/NR15-002.aspx

You numbskull

This joke about "vaccine failure" is getting old...

*1 CONFIRMED VACCINE FAILURE.

On par with an advertised efficiency in the 95%.

The curious reader will note that, unless otherwise proven, the vast majority of confirmed cases are happening with non-vaccinated individuals (some too young to have been vaccinated, sadly for them).
Non-vaccinated people are a minority. It's as the virus was aiming for them...

Sit this one out, old hag.

Ah, missed this one. Getting out of arguments so resorting to insults. Classy.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 19 Jan 2015 #permalink

I recall — in a completely non-gloating way — this prediction from last October

I'm holding out for endorsement of the killing of polio workers in Pakistan, myself. Because "populism."

*7 CONFIRMED cases of measles in California.
Even when quoting an out-of-date press release, Toto feels obliged to skip over the confirmed Utah cases. It's a kind of fractal mendacity.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 19 Jan 2015 #permalink

@Toto #172
Okay, seriously. It is a press release.
You can clearly see that after this date, they decided it would be far simpler to update their general "Measles" page, instead of cluttering their homepage with updates after updates. It is clearly indicated in the announcement you cite + in the homepage, the "Measles" is now in the "Hot topics".

As for the missing informations : have you contacted them to ask your questions ?

Forgot this quote from the "Measles" page :
Last updated: January 16th, 2015. Cases will be updated every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.

Trolls like Toto are so interesting. They cut and paste whole screeds of stuff, most of it irrelevant to the topic at hand, but the puff out their chest convinced that they have "proven" us all wrong.

But they really don't understand what they wrote, and if you try to spend the time to debunk each of Toto's fallacies, he/she gets indignant that you failed to debunk his/her comment from 15 minutes ago, so therefore, he/she WON!!!

And now he/she's an HIV/AIDS denier too. I believe that in baseball terms, Toto has hit for the cycle.

By SkepticalRaptor (not verified) on 19 Jan 2015 #permalink

When all else fails, go to special pleading, and invoke religion.

By SkepticalRaptor (not verified) on 19 Jan 2015 #permalink

There also seems to be no rhyme or reason to its posts - more stream of consciousness & throwing out whatever it thinks is important or has some meaning....

Don't forget the apparently RANDOM capitalization, and pasting ARTICLES that contradict her CLAIMS. I have no idea why she thinks the article she pasted refutes my statement that "the Vaccine Court was set up because frivolous litigation was driving vaccine manufacturers out of the market", when it states (in a section that for some reason she didn't paste):

In recent years the number of such lawsuits has increased, and the prices of vaccines have risen rapidly. The increase in the cost of liability insurance and the unpredictable nature of such liability have forced some manufacturers to consider abandoning production of vaccines, even though the vaccines have been highly effective in protecting millions of children against disease.

How can any of us compete with an intellect that is capable of a response like, "HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !", accompanied by copy pasta that supports what s/he thinks is so amusing?

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 20 Jan 2015 #permalink

Johanna, I'm very late with my condolences, but they're nonetheless very sincere. : (

By Scottynuke (not verified) on 20 Jan 2015 #permalink

Measles 'outbreak' hits two Jewish neighborhoods in Brooklyn
The city's Dept. of Health has reported 30 cases of the disease. Doctors said some communities shun vaccinations that would fight the illness.
BY MUHAMMAD ALI , SIMONE WEICHSELBAUM NEW YORK DAILY NEWS Published: Thursday, May 16, 2013, 7:33 PM Updated: Thursday, May 16, 2013, 7:33 PM

"Measles is practically the 11th plaguing in two Jewish enclaves of Brooklyn right now.

Health officials have reported 30 cases of the Victorian-era scourge — with 26 in Borough Park and another four in the Hasidic quarter of Williamsburg.

And even though the disease has been practically eradicated, it can still be ruinous to people who decline the vaccination.

“There have been two hospitalizations, a miscarriage and a case of pneumonia as a result of this outbreak,” a Health Department spokeswoman said. “All cases involved adults or children who were not vaccinated due to refusal or delays in vaccination.”

Some parents, including many religious Jews, shun getting the vaccine, which prevents mumps, measles, and rubella, out of fear it causes autism, said Dr. Yu Shia Lin of Maimonides Medical Center in Borough Park.

“We have to tell them it is a very contagious disease and that people can die,” Lin said.

The outbreak stemmed from a visitor from England who showed up in Brooklyn with the virus, which causes red splotches, fever and aches.

The disease spreads quickly in the Orthodox Jewish community, where family sizes are extremely large and many parents decline vaccinations for their children.

“One person gets it and the whole family can get the disease,” Lin warned."

ARE VACCINES KOSHER? I'm confused.

OOPS!
Here's the link to #208

THIS MEASLES OUTBREAK WAS LARGER THAN THE DISNEY ONE. WHY NO WEEKS OF WALL TO WALL COVERAGE IN THE MSM?

Notes from the Field: Measles Outbreak Among Members of a Religious Community — Brooklyn, New York, March–June 2013
September 13, 2013 / 62(36);752-753

"On March 13, 2013, an intentionally unvaccinated adolescent aged 17 years returned to New York City from London, United Kingdom, while infectious with measles. This importation led to the largest outbreak of measles in the United States since 1996 (1).
Investigation of suspected cases included patient interviews, medical record reviews, and ascertainment of immunization records. Testing for measles immunoglobulin G (IgG) and immunoglobulin M (IgM) and testing for measles virus RNA by reverse-transcription polymerase chain reaction (RT-PCR) were performed, and MEASLES GENOTYPE WAS DETERMINED. Cases were identified in residents of New York City and classified according to the Council of State and Territorial Epidemiologists clinical case definition (2). Exposed contacts were identified, and control measures were implemented.
A TOTAL OF 58 CASES* were identified, including six generations of measles infection in TWO NEIGHBORHOODS of the borough of BROOKLYN. ALL CASES WERE IN MEMBERS OF THE ORTHODOX JEWISH COMMUNITY. NO case was identified in a person who had DOCUMENTED MEASLES VACCINATION at the time of exposure; 12 (21%) OF THE CASES WERE IN INFANTS too young (aged <12 months) for routine immunization with measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine.

The outbreak was first recognized in Brooklyn's Borough Park neighborhood, where the median age of 28 infected persons was 10 years (range: 0–32 years), and 79% of cases in persons aged ≥12 months were in three extended families whose members declined use of measles vaccine. The outbreak spread to the Williamsburg neighborhood, where the median age of 30 infected persons was 19 months (range: 0 months–32 years), and the primary reasons for lack of vaccination were refusal (nine, 30%) and delay (eight, 27%). Forty-eight (83%) of all cases were confirmed by positive measles IgM or RT-PCR result and 10 (17%) by epidemiologic linkage (2). GENOTYPE D8 WAS IDENTIFIED IN 17 cases, consistent with known current circulation of this genotype in the UNITED KINGDOM. No other genotype was identified among the cases."

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6236a5.htm

I never said who I show the video to. Anyone could share the video as they see fit, even “anti-vax” sites.

Ah. You mentioned "uploading" your imaginary videos in the first place because there was a possibility that someone you allowed to watch them might somehow take it into their head to find someplace to do this.

Keep squirming, Bitsy.

I hope you realize that I videotape myself making my posts live. I then show all of my censored posts. It makes a nice upload for anti-vax sites.

“It was a fυcking rhesus macaque, dipshіt.”
THANKS FOR THE CLARIFICATION.

That they're not African? No, thank you for this idiotic jabbering:

For all we know, the monkey could be biting wild animals and spreading a reservoir [sic] of HIV or EBOLA</b?. Remember the Litton connection and the Marburg, Germany incident?

Forget HIV or Ebola--if you're worrying it will be a vector of infection it's simian herpesvirus B you should be concerned with.

The mysterious Mr. Albert Saperstein and the sugar cube fix....
His story REVEALED!
http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/this-day-in-jewish-history/.premiu…

Related:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uGWut6IRfA

"Barbara Loe Fisher, president and co-founder of theNational Vaccine Information Center, a non-profit organization which advocates vaccine safety,testifiedbefore the House Government Reform Committee’s subcommittee on Human Rights and Wellness in September 2003 that

[T]oday, U.S. federal health agencies admit the following two facts: (1) Salk polio vaccine released for public use between 1955 and 1963 was contaminated with SV40; and SV40 has been proven to cause cancer in animals.

Continuing, Fisher said that at a 1997 conference on SV40 and human cancers held by the National Institutes of Health which she attended, “there was no disagreement among both government and non-government scientists about these two facts.

The only disagreement was whether SV40 was actually being identified in the cancerous tumors of children and adults alive today and, if it was, whether the monkey virus was in fact responsible for their cancer. Non-government scientists working in independent labs around the world said, ‘Yes.’ But the scientists connected with the U.S. government said ‘No.'”

Fisher went on to say that “credentialed non-government scientists in multiple labs around the world continue to identify SV40 in human brain and lung cancers of children and adults and are finding that SV40 is also associated with bone cancers and Non-Hodgkin’s Lymphomas.”
http://drleonardcoldwell.com/2011/06/29/the-true-story-of-sv40-the-canc…

Is our resident troll just going to keep posting a bunch of non-sequiturs?

These New Yorkers can’t get it right. If they vaccinate, they get sick. If they don’t vaccinate, they get sick…….

Update: Mumps Outbreak — New York and New Jersey, June 2009–January 2010

page1image3616
"State and local health departments, in collaboration with CDC, continue to investigate a mumps outbreak that began in New York in June 2009 (1). The index case occurred in a boy aged 11 years who had returned on June 17 from a trip to the UNITED KINGDOM, where approximately 7,400 reports of laboratory-confirmed mumps were received by the Health Protection Agency in 2009.* He then attended a New York summer camp for tradition-observant Jewish boys, where he became symptomatic on June 28. Subsequently, other camp attendees and a staff member were reported to have mumps, and transmission continued in multiple locations when the camp attendees returned home. As of January 29, 2010, a total of 1,521 cases had been reported, with onset dates from June 28, 2009, through January 29, 2010, a substantial increase from the 179 cases reported as of October 30, 2009 (1). The OUTBREAK HAS REMAINED CONFINED PRIMARILY TO THE TRADITION - OBSERVANT JEWISH COMMUNITY with <3% of cases occurring among persons outside the community. The largest percentage of cases (61%) has occurred among persons aged 7–18 years, and 76% of the patients are male. Among the patients for whom vaccination status was reported, 88% had received at least 1 dose of mumps-containing vaccine, and 75% HAD RECEIVED 2 DOSES. This is the LARGEST MUMPS OUTBREAK that has occurred in the United States since 2006 (2). Although mumps VACCINATION ALONE WAS NOT SUFFICIENT to prevent this outbreak, "

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/pdf/wk/mm5905.pdf

You mean mainstream media like the New York Daily News? Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it wasn't covered. (Though trying to explain what gets covered in any terms other than "they're trying to sell ads" is beyond me.)

Maybe your news sources assume that their viewers can identify more easily with English-speaking families taking their children to Disneyland than with Yiddish-speaking families in a rather insular religious community.

But what does this have to do with how dangerous measles is and how easily it can spread? If someone belatedly wakes up to a danger and starts taking precautions, at least they're taking them now.

I don't know bob, but this is a very interesting account of the polio vaccine history. It jives with the bio of Sabin (Saperstein) linked at #215

"bob- Reply
August 26, 2012 at 4:28 pm
Larry, you left out all the good stuff. The Sabin vs Salk competition and the relationship to the cold war.

It also should be noted that Sabin wasn’t really the discoverer of the oral vaccine. It was another Polish Jew – Hilary Koprowski. Sabin got a sample of the attenuated virus from Koprowski who had first tested it in 1950.

Sabin couldn’t continue his work in the USA. He took it to Russia. This made the Soviet Union the first country to develop, produce, license, and widely use the oral polio vaccine. Between 1955-1961, the oral vaccine was given to at least 100 million people in the USSR, parts of Eastern Europe, Singapore, Mexico and the Netherlands orior to its use in the USA.

The first industrial production and mass use of Oral Poliovirus Vaccine (OPV) from Sabin strains was organized by Soviet scientist Mikhail Chumakov. This was all described in two articles published in scientific journals in the 1980s, one by Sabin himself. First Sabin’s piece: “Role of my cooperation with Soviet scientists in the elimination of polio: possible lessons for relations between the U.S.A. and the USSR”. Perspect Biol Med. 1987 and earlier one by S. Benison, “International Medical Cooperation: Dr. Albert Sabin, Live Poliovirus Vaccine and the Soviets” Bulletin of the History of Medicine 56 (1982). See also this article in Scientific American: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=birth-of-a-cold-war-va….

So, tens of millions had benefitted from the work of Sabin with the Russian communists prior to the vaccine’s introduction to the US. Dr Sabin was honored with a medal from the Soviet government during the height of the Cold War. [http://perryjgreenbaum.blogspot.com/2010/12/polio-vaccine.html]

Salk had the deep financial backing of the National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis (the March of Dimes). Sabin had to face the opposition of the organization. Attempts were made to prevent its use in the US calling it Sabin’s “communist vaccine.” Later, in 1985, Ronald Reagan took time to glorify Salk (not Sabin) proclaiming May 6, 1985 to be “Jonas Salk Day.”

Some years later, Sabin got into some trouble with the US government and the press when he denounced the administration of the swine flu vaccine. He said he doubted there was as much danger from the swine flu as the public was being led to believe. He argued that the vaccination campaign should await evidence that the virus was indeed reappearing in the population. As it turned out, the feared epidemic never did materialize and vaccination was followed by serious illness in several hundred people.

And finally, we should remember that Sabin graduated from high school in Paterson, N.J. – my hometown!

Good early discussion of Sabin vs Salk at http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1963/3/2/salk-and-sabin-pin-january-1… "
http://jewishcurrents.org/august-26-albert-sabins-polio-vaccine-11746

@Vicki
"Maybe your news sources assume that their viewers can identify more easily with English-speaking families taking their children to Disneyland than with Yiddish-speaking families in a rather insular religious community."
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! Si, si, senorita!
I believe it said Americans who are members of "THE ORTHODOX JEWISH COMMUNITY." Do you know for a fact if they are Russian Jewish immigrants who speak no English and are not U.S. citizens?
Please document.

@Nolady

Give Dr. Jay a rest. I just dropped fresh new targets right in your lap: the New York ORTHODOX JEWISH COMMUNITY.
Get your claws out and go for the throat!
#211

@Chris
#221
Could this have something to do with it? Jeryl Lynn is getting old.

“We are pleased that the court has upheld our federal antitrust claim in this important case. While Merck has enjoyed an exclusive monopoly on the sale of mumps vaccine in the United States, mumps outbreaks continue to occur because, as we allege in our lawsuit, Merck has misled the public about the vaccine’s efficacy,” Kellie Lerner of Robins Kaplan Miller & Ciresi LLP, representing the direct purchasers, said in a statement. “This decision brings us one step closer to shining a light on Merck’s deceptive business practices so that new and more effective vaccines will ultimately be developed in the future.”
http://www.law360.com/articles/574389/antitrust-fca-claims-on-merck-mum…

I want to preface this with the fact that I do not have a degree to back up my comments. (I can already sense Toto squealing with delight). However, I am a mother of five and read studies and CDC/WHO data/published studies/recomendations in order to make informed decisions about my children's healthcare. I have been lucky enough to have developed immunity to measles and varicella via "natural" means. The varicella strain I was exposed to had an origin in Asia and nearly killed me at the age of six.

I chose to vaccinate (yes I have a choice into this country), because I believe that pneumonia and deafness are not outcomes that I find acceptable. Especially when compared to the mild side effects of routine vaccination.

My middle child is Autistic. I knew from day one that there was something different about him. (In other words, before any vaccinations had been given) To this day I do not regret having him vaccinated as I do not believe that vaccination had anything to do with his Autism. Nor do I believe it is acceptable to subscribe to quack beliefs akin to the one that claims drinking apple juice will cure gal stones.

THIS MEASLES OUTBREAK WAS LARGER THAN THE DISNEY ONE. WHY NO WEEKS OF WALL TO WALL COVERAGE IN THE MSM?

Because it concerns different people.
- some who are clustered in one community (the communication being handled mostly by the local health authorities)
- while the others come from everywhere in the country. Hence the necessity to alert more widely people who came to the park at these dates.

Is our resident troll just going to keep posting a bunch of non-sequiturs?

Toto is going to continue running up and down threads in his underpants giggling, because Oppositional Defiance. He did make up a lot of bullsh1t when he first showed up at RI about having two vaccine-damaged children for which he swore vendetta upon the medical establishment, but that Origin Story has long since been abandoned.

The imaginary sick kids do not occupy much of Toto's time.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 20 Jan 2015 #permalink

I just find it both funny & a little interesting (from a psychological perspective) to see someone who lacks any sense of self-awareness, to realize that any other rational person, reading their posts, would quickly realize that the poster is mentally unbalanced (at minimum) and may be completely unhinged (more likely).

Keep it up little doggy - makes it easier to see which side reality is on (and it isn't yours).

I'll just say this, showing some of toto's posts to a few of the doctors and nurses at the hospital that I volunteer at (one of the doctors is a infectious disease specialist) the general consensus is that toto has no idea what he/she it is talking about and that anyone with a rational mind would dismiss the postings instantly. Heck, the doc with the specialty in infectious diseases thought it was a joke at first.

So yeah, toto's just proving how out of touch he is and how little the anti-vax side has in terms of honesty, integrity, and intelligence. I enjoy the posts, just to see how much stupidity he/she/it posts, and to draw a few cheap laughs.

@ #225
"Because it concerns different people."
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!
Now I get it.
On Scienceblogs, If you are ANTI-VACCINES and are a member of the ORTHODOX JEWISH COMMUNITY, YOU GET A PASS!

Did I mention that my family name has a rock in it?

@#229
"Heck, the doc with the specialty in infectious diseases thought it was a joke at first."

Is this the post you are referring to?

#150
Toto

On the beach
January 18, 2015
Q: Where do surviving retired Yerkes Primate Center employees go?

A. Some have found employment in the security industry on the West Coast…..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHmD5GtnzF8

There is a danger that if we don't reply to them someone in Dunning-Krugerland might read it and think "See, even the minions have no answer to that one." Unfortunately, it's easier to copy-paste that stuff than it is to take the time to reply to it. I personally haven't found any of his/her/its recent stuff amusing enough to reply to.

By justthestats (not verified) on 21 Jan 2015 #permalink

Well,well.
Looks like Jeffery Epstein has gone up a notch.
From SMOKING GUN to the INQUIRER:
http://www.nationalenquirer.com/celebrity/world-exclusive-bill-clinton-…

Perhaps he can offer certain Sciencebloggers a Spring Break package to the V.I. He is, after all, a science research philanthropist...

"Epstein has always been interested in science, funding scientific projects and investments around the world. In 2000 he established the Jeffrey Epstein VI Foundation, which funds science research and education globally. He has reportedly donated $30m to Harvard University, money the Ivy League institution retained despite his conviction and registration as a sex offender.

Reports say the silver-coiffed Epstein has invested millions to research subjects such as evolution, cancer and HIV. His projects have linked him to many leading figures in the world of science and research including Gerald Edelman, Murray Gell-Mann and Stephen Hawking."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/who-is-jeffrey-epstein…

You know, I think Albert (Saperstein) Sabin was on to something.
I have decided to now post as Toto "the Rock".
Here's my theme song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PtvLTZS4Ik (note: I am NOT the one in gray)
Here is my power verse: Psalm 18:2
Why, I feel like I've been born again!

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 21 Jan 2015 #permalink

@#230
"Unfortunately, it’s easier to copy-paste that stuff"
Do you mean this stuff?

"Almost forgot:*

African colony born monkeys

Which African monkey colonies?

PUT UP OR SH## UP.

* As Tutu, I reserve the right to expand the list arbitrarily.
Vicki:
People can read what they want. I’m not assuming anything about the value of your time or how you chose to spend it. My only stated complaint was that some people chose to spend a lot of time reading and replying to trolls, which IMHO is unproductive. If they enjoy it, they get to choose their hobby as freely as Orac does. They could be fly-fishing, or putting ships in bottles. It’s hardly for me to say. But if the idea is to advance the cause of reducing harm from pseudo-science quackery, I don’t see the utility.
There also seems to be no rhyme or reason to its posts – more stream of consciousness & throwing out whatever it thinks is important or has some meaning….
@Narad
“Strange that those never appear anywhere.”
Paranoid, much? Kind’a like Candid Camera.

I can truthfully say that Orac saw the error of his ways and posted all my comments. No need to publicize.

Classic. It’s like Festinger’s UFO cult; they were the only people in the world who believed in the upcoming apocalypse, and when the real world provided exactly ZERO evidence to support their predictions, they salvaged their perception by claiming their actions had averted the apocalypse.

I am interested, vaguely, in what Toto would present as evidence that could falsify its idea that it is important enough to censor. Of course, that would presume that it can even understand the principle of falsification.
Don’t forget the apparently RANDOM capitalization, and pasting ARTICLES that contradict her CLAIMS. I have no idea why she thinks the article she pasted refutes my statement that “the Vaccine Court was set up because frivolous litigation was driving vaccine manufacturers out of the market”, when it states (in a section that for some reason she didn’t paste):

In recent years the number of such lawsuits has increased, and the prices of vaccines have risen rapidly. The increase in the cost of liability insurance and the unpredictable nature of such liability have forced some manufacturers to consider abandoning production of vaccines, even though the vaccines have been highly effective in protecting millions of children against disease.

How can any of us compete with an intellect that is capable of a response like, “HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !”, accompanied by copy pasta that supports what s/he thinks is so amusing?
Don’t forget the apparently RANDOM capitalization, and pasting ARTICLES that contradict her CLAIMS. I have no idea why she thinks the article she pasted refutes my statement that “the Vaccine Court was set up because frivolous litigation was driving vaccine manufacturers out of the market”, when it states (in a section that for some reason she didn’t paste):

In recent years the number of such lawsuits has increased, and the prices of vaccines have risen rapidly. The increase in the cost of liability insurance and the unpredictable nature of such liability have forced some manufacturers to consider abandoning production of vaccines, even though the vaccines have been highly effective in protecting millions of children against disease.

How can any of us compete with an intellect that is capable of a response like, “HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !”, accompanied by copy pasta that supports what s/he thinks is so amusing?
Disney is likely losing serious business with this outbreak.

Or not:

“Despite the measles outbreak, a Disneyland Resort spokesperson, who didn’t want to be identified, said that they haven’t seen a drop in attendance.”

It’s not as though the disease arose spontaneously.
Not that I think there is still measles floating around Disneyland or anything (or maybe there is again? Maybe it’s the hot new destination for “measles parties” or whatever) but if I’m vaxxed but pregnant, then I should be covered, right? I know I had to stay away from a relative with shingles recently…
Toto:

@Narad
“Strange that those never appear anywhere.”
Paranoid, much? Kind’a like Candid Camera.

I can truthfully say that Orac saw the error of his ways and posted all my comments. No need to publicize.

That’s good. The Internet might’ve been destroyed from the terminal boredom such a video would impose. Then again, you might be able to start a new reality TV show in Norway. They’ve already got one showing paint drying in real time. I am not kidding. By contrast, watching you type stuff into a computer would be an absolute thriller.

BTW, all posts with several URLs in them go into automatic moderation. It’s to prevent spamming by advertizing bots, which post links to their products. Length may also be a trigger, and whatever else ScienceBlogs’ IT department feels is suggestive of a spam-bot. I run a blog of my own, and that’s actually a big problem. Even my blog, which hardly anybody reads, gets hit regularly by spammers, so I’m sure Orac has a ton to sort through every day.
Heh. This is the new “expert witness/doctor” who is set to testify in the Hooker case…she’s a specialist in whole cell DPT vaccine-induced-autism.

http://www.megson.com/readings/MedicalHypothesis.pdf
Trolls like Toto are so interesting. They cut and paste whole screeds of stuff, most of it irrelevant to the topic at hand, but the puff out their chest convinced that they have “proven” us all wrong.

But they really don’t understand what they wrote, and if you try to spend the time to debunk each of Toto’s fallacies, he/she gets indignant that you failed to debunk his/her comment from 15 minutes ago, so therefore, he/she WON!!!

And now he/she’s an HIV/AIDS denier too. I believe that in baseball terms, Toto has hit for the cycle.
Toto,

I’m still waiting for you to post the individual stats on one page, with links to the appropriate state health department.
PUT UP OR SH## UP.

Why would any of us encourage you in pursuit of yet another red herring? Vaccination has resulted in a more than 99% fall in the incidence of measles. Falling vaccination rates result in outbreaks like the current one, which are a threat to the small percentage of the vaccinated who did not develop immunity as well as to the unvaccinated. About 1% of those who are fully vaccinated against measles are still susceptible, so of course some of those that succumb will be fully vaccinated.

That’s why keeping vaccination rates high is so important. When you add those who don’t develop immunity to those who refuse vaccination you end up with enough non-immune people to fuel an outbreak.

Why can’t you just accept this instead of trying to find something in this shameful state of affairs that will justify your mistaken beliefs? I think you realize that you and your fellow antivaxxers bear some responsibility for this, and this is why you are so desperate to exonerate yourself and blame the vaccines in this increasingly ludicrous manner.
I love the way people like Toto seize upon an exceptionally rare case of vaccine-derived measles as a possible cause of an outbreak, when wild measles is far more virulent and far more dangerous. When their misinformation campaigns have the expected and presumably desired results of reducing vaccine coverage and allowing outbreaks, antivaxxers don’t accept any responsibility, they still try to blame it on the vaccine.

Similarly the rare side effects of the vaccine are anathema but the far more common and severe sequelae of measles itself are a mere “rite of passage”. I’m impressed (also a little concerned) by the mental contortions this must require."

You're correct. THAT WAS EASY!

Toto "the Rock" and sidekick SARAH MERCURYWOMAN will continue to finger THE ENEMIES OF THE ANTI-VACCINE New York ORTHODOX JEWISH COMMUNITY!

Here's a TUTTI-FRUTTI POWER BALL comin' at 'ya!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZE2C-VEqYo

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 21 Jan 2015 #permalink

Toto @ 220:

I said nothing about either Russian immigrants or citizenship. Anyone born in the United States is a U.S. citizen; that doesn't guarantee or require that they speak English, let alone that it's their first language. There are a lot of Yiddish-speaking Hasidic Jews in New York City; for some of them, English is a second language that they learned in school to the extent required by the state. But they're not likely to be reading the Daily News or any of the city's other English-language newspapers (nor yet the Spanish or Italian daily newspapers) or watching CNN or listening to WINS.

So you are saying that the Vaccine Surveillance/Health Department workers spoke to them in Yiddish?

According to the article:
"“There have been two hospitalizations, a miscarriage and a case of pneumonia as a result of this outbreak,” a Health Department spokeswoman said. “All cases involved adults or children who were not vaccinated due to refusal or delays in vaccination.”
"Some parents, including many religious Jews, shun getting the vaccine, which prevents mumps, measles, and rubella, out of fear it causes autism, said Dr. Yu Shia Lin of Maimonides Medical Center in Borough Park."
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/measles-outbreak-hits-jewi…

So they are reading about AUTISM in their Yiddish newspapers?
Does Jenny McCarthy speak Yiddish?
Just curious, what is the Yiddish word for "autism"?

Regardless, you, my friend, are ANTI- the Anti-vaccine ORTHODOX JEWISH COMMUNITY.

Toto "the Rock" and sidekick, Sarah Mercurygirl, are here to come to their defense!
cue theme song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PtvLTZS4Ik
HERE'S A TUTI FRUTI POWER BALL comin' at ya'! (don't duck)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZE2C-VEqYo

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 21 Jan 2015 #permalink

My fellow ANTI- warriors:
Come join our Blog Wars!
We will have our first secret meeting at the undisclosed building linked below. Unfortunately, Mercurywoman (doesn't want to be called "girl") failed to notice the ONE WAY sign. She may be a little late to the meeting. Don't forget the secret password (Alzheimer's).
https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x88f5047841f3d74f:0x9234ab8…

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 21 Jan 2015 #permalink

Hey fellow ANTI- Warriors!
We had a GREAT turnout at our secret meeting. Sarah Mercurywoman was able to record the whole thing. We're making it available to you at the link below at no charge. However, don't forget, FREEDOM ISN'T FREE. Just leave us a little something at the donate button on your way out. THANKS!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGaOlfmX8rQ

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 21 Jan 2015 #permalink

Isn't Dr. Nancy "JUST GET YOUR DAM* VACCINES" Snyderman the lady who got BUSTED for violating her 21 day EBOLA QUARANTINE? Why wasn't she jailed? That poor girl in California got THREATENED.
http://theweek.com/speedreads/444439/nbcs-dr-nancy-snyderman-apologizes…

Well, well.
Here she is pretending to be nice to the ANTI-VACCINE New York ORTHODOX JEWISH COMMUNITY!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDIrPXNXzJw
Unbelievable! Can you say HYPOCRITE?
HERE’S A TUTI FRUTI POWER BALL comin’ at ya’ NANCY!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZE2C-VEqYo

By Toto "the Rock" (not verified) on 21 Jan 2015 #permalink

Oh, for f*** sake...

@ #225
“Because it concerns different people.”
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!
Now I get it.
On Scienceblogs, If you are ANTI-VACCINES and are a member of the ORTHODOX JEWISH COMMUNITY, YOU GET A PASS!

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/08/28/measles-outbreaks-religion…

Sadly, like the whole of the U.K. paid for Andrew Wakefield’s anti-MMR fear mongering, the Eagle Mountain International Church is now paying the price for Kenneth Copeland and Terri Pearson’s fear mongering about vaccines, not to mention their complete embrace of faith healing quackery, which combined with standard antivaccine fears of autism to produce a disastrously low rate of vaccine uptake among the children of church members. Not surprisingly, among the people sickened by measles, most were either unvaccinated or undervaccinated. So is the Netherlands, which is currently in the middle of a massive measles outbreak, with over 1,100 cases reported thus far, thanks to the prevalence of religion-inspired antivaccination views. So are Jews in Brooklyn, where there was also a major outbreak of measles (58 cases) tied to a group of families that refused to vaccinate.

So, no, the orthodow jewish community didn't "get a pass" on this very blog.

You asked

THIS MEASLES OUTBREAK WAS LARGER THAN THE DISNEY ONE. WHY NO WEEKS OF WALL TO WALL COVERAGE IN THE MSM?

My answer was about the ability to track the people concerned, and to inform them that they might have been exposed.
– In the case of a religious community, the communication will first be handled by the local health authorities and local newspapers. Since we know that the first exposed persons are members of this community ; then we ask them what their contacts were outside of their communities and work from there.
– In the Disneyland case, the people exposed come from everywhere in the country. There are much more, they are more difficult to track, it involves health authorities from more states. Hence the necessity to alert more widely people who came to the park at these dates, via MSM, so that they take the necessary measures.

@211 Well, given that the 2013 outbreak was 58 cases in more or less one neighborhood and the Disney one as of Friday was up to 58 confirmed linked across several states, with 20 more confirmed cases that might or might not be linked, and is still ongoing so those numbers will almost certainly continue to climb... did you have a point?

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 24 Jan 2015 #permalink

@ Emma Crew, Engaging Toto with the hopes of extracting a coherent reply would be better served if you were to place your head on concrete and smash the other side with a brick.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 24 Jan 2015 #permalink

I don't know what language(s) they used; are you assuming that the New York Department of Health doesn't have any Yiddish-speaking staff, or the ability to find a translator?

A person can speak a second language well enough to have a reasonable conversation, without being comfortable enough in it to seek out news sources in that language when they don't need to. I have mostly-Anglophone friends who live in Montreal; they buy groceries in either language, but when they get a newspaper, it's the Gazette, in English, not a French-language daily.

If I needed to find medical help in Spanish, it would be with a fair amount of gesturing and/or a dictionary: but I know enough Spanish to state the basic fact that I need a doctor, and to ask if there is someone there who speaks English.

Science Mom, I've lurked around long enough to know that, but figured it was worth having the "no, actually, that one was smaller" numbers somewhere in the thread for posterity...

By Emma Crew (not verified) on 26 Jan 2015 #permalink

@ LouV / Emma Crew

Another factor in today's "wall-to-wall" coverage compared to the previous ones in 2013 is that these were the previous ones.
Then, "it was just measles, a benign childhood disease".
And then we of Old Europa had our big outbreaks in UK and France. With enough casualties to make people reconsider the "benign" part.
And just recently, Ebola. Just to remind everybody what "contagious" stands for in "contagious disease".

Well, I do hope it's not just wishful thinking on my part , but that reporters did improve their assessment of the seriousness of resurgences of almost-forgotten diseases.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 26 Jan 2015 #permalink

I'll say this. showing some people and nurses some of toto's posts convinced them how little the anti-vax side had and convinced them to fully vaccinate their children and themselves.

Not surprisingly, none of them want to be involved with toto's type of crazy.

Regarding #240

Isn’t Dr. Nancy “JUST GET YOUR DAM* VACCINES” Snyderman the lady who got BUSTED for violating her 21 day EBOLA QUARANTINE? Why wasn’t she jailed? That poor girl in California got THREATENED.

I just read this interesting article on the subject : http://scienceblogs.com/aetiology/2015/01/15/why-quarantine-for-measles…
You're welcome.
(And yep, I'm not posting this for Toto but for eventual late readers.)

The basic reproductive rate for Ebola is around 2, meaning on average each infected person will cause an additional 2 infections in susceptible individuals.

And what’s the reproductive number for measles?

Eighteen. Eight. Teen. I’m not exaggerating when I say that it is literally one of the most contagious diseases we know of. On average, if you have 10 susceptible individuals exposed to a measles patient, 9 will end up getting sick.

More from this article :

The difference in transmissibility also makes measles a very different situation from Ebola. Public health officials almost universally condemned quarantine for Ebola exposures, for two reasons: 1) Ebola wasn’t highly transmissible, and isn’t airborne like measles is; and 2) because Ebola isn’t efficiently transmitted until late in the infection when the patient is very ill and likely bedridden. Quarantining Ebola patients was a political stunt, not a public health necessity.

“It’s not nice when my daughter is threatened like this because she’s not even sick,” said Myrna Tellez.

just saying, this is exactly what "typhoid" mary said. Just saying.

@dude - she was extremely unapologetic & denied her responsibility until the day she died.

Thanks to AoA and Rescue Post, we have this decision from the U.S. Court of Appeals

I actually pulled down quite a bit more of the case yesterday, but I’m waiting for archive-dot-org to mirror the stuff (it will be here eventually).

JEEZUMS. At least Plainsite can be roused from the dead.

If anybody wants to, y'know, claim their $15 for the common weal, #52, the motion for an emergency injunction (listed as "00203446092") looks like a keeper.

There's a $3 cap per document in the Second Circuit, BTW.

PACER is telling me "not found" on that string of digits, and I'd rather not use up too much of my $15 on futile searching. (I have installed the RECAP extension for Firefox, so if I can find it I'll put it out there for other folks.)

PACER is telling me “not found” on that string of digits

That's the number Plainsite has tacked onto it. If you click that, it should take you right to the document.

Oh, but I forgot, that's not going to help, because archive-dot-org still hasn't indexed it. I had to upload the documents to Plainsite by hand once they finally put up the docket. So.... if you RECAP it, it should eventually turn up at Archive, mebbe, or you could jump through the hoop of registering at Plainsite, or you could just deposit the PDF someplace, and I'll upload it.