Poor, poor pitiful Andy (Wakefield): Dissed again, this time by the Oregon Senate Committee on Health Care

Poor Andy Wakefield.

Beginning in the late 1990s until around six years ago, Andy was the premiere "vaccine skeptic" in the world. His 1998 case series published in The Lancet linking bowel problems in autistic children to the measles vaccine, the one where in the paper itself he was careful not to blame the MMR vaccine for autism but elsewhere was not so shy, launched a campaign of fear and loathing for the MMR vaccine that continues to this day. In his heyday, Wakefield was quite the figure, showing up on the media everywhere, treated with undeserved respect by much of the tabloid press and downright reverence by the antivaccine movement. (Indeed, Age of Autism founder J.B. Handley once famously referred to Wakefield as our "Nelson Mandela and Jesus Christ rolled up into one." Of course, thanks largely to the efforts of Brian Deer, the wheels came off a five years ago. That year, Wakefield lost his license to practice and his (in)famous case series in The Lancet was retracted, as it had been demonstrated rather conclusively that Wakefield had committed scientific fraud in that study. Even the antivaccine quack mill Thoughtful House, where Wakefield had reigned supreme as chief antivaccine autism quack couldn't take it any more, and its board of directors rather unceremoniously gave him the boot.

Of couse, since then, Wakefield has done pretty well for himself, remaining a figurehead adored by credulous antivaccine activists, a veritable hero. He was still flown to antivaccine conferences in nice hotels in places like Jamaica. He still manages to live quite a comfortable lifestyle, in part thanks to the generosity of of the deep pockets behind the antivaccine movement, as reported by CNN, in part thanks to his Strategic Autism Initiative. Another times, he exploited the tragedy of the murder of an autistic boy, Alex Spourdalakis, in a most shameful fashion.

So, two days ago, when I saw this story, I couldn't believe it:

Andrew Wakefield, the British researcher who was made famous by his 1998 study that linked autism to a childhood vaccine, is coming to Salem next month to testify before the Legislature, a health care lobbyist confirmed Tuesday.

The Senate Committee on Health Care is exploring a bill, sponsored by Sen. Elizabeth Steiner Hayward, D-Beaverton, that would ban parents from claiming nonmedical exemptions from their children's school immunizations.

By the time I saw the story, it was too late to blog about it for yesterday; so I put it in the hopper for today. However, two days ago, I did blog about the Oregon bill to which the article refers. The bill, SB442, was originally intended to clarify the procedure for parents to get non-medical exemptions to school vaccine mandates. However, in the wake of the Disneyland measles outbreak consideration was being given to amending the bill to eliminate non-medical exemptions altogether. As I pointed out, the very fact that a state like Oregon, which is a hotbed of antivaccine activity (J. B. Handley, for instance, lives there) would even consider such a bill, is a sea change in attitude in the wake of continuing measles outbreaks.

Of course, antivaccine activists weren't going to take this lying down, and they didn't. J.B. Handley, for instance, submitted testimony to the Oregon Senate Committee on Health Care on February 18. Not surprisingly, he pulled out the same old tropes that I've seen him using over the decade that I've been blogging and since I first encountered him: "too many too soon"; argument by package insert; the pharma shill gambit; and, of course, the antivaccine dog whistle that ties vaccine "choice" to parental rights and freedom.

Still, I couldn't understand why on earth anyone would think that tarting up old, discredited Andy Wakefield, flying him up to Oregon, and plopping him in front of the Senate Committee on Health Care would serve the cause of "vaccine choice." I mean, seriously. Is there any "vaccine skeptic" currently more discredited than Andrew Wakefield in the mind of the public? Sure, there are actually more despicable antivaccinationists, but few people have heard of them. Wakefield, on the other hand, is famous, but he's famous because he's a discredited fraud who did antivaccine research for money. Brian Deer showed us that. And there are many victims. I know that Wakefield's visit was arranged by the Oregon Chiropractic Association, but I didn't think that even chiropractors were so deluded to think that a discredited fraud like Wakefield would help their case. In fact, when I first heard of the story, I was almost happy. The more quacks and cranks antivaccinationists trotted in front of the committee, the better. What better way for them to shoot themselves in the foot, to self-immolate? I was even thinking of suggesting more cranks to testify, such as Mark and David Geier or Christopher Shaw. Heck, why not get Sharyl Attkisson?

Oh, wait. I had heard it through the grapevine that others scheduled to testify included Tetyana Obukhanyeh, PhD., and Lucija Tomljenovic, PhD.

Sadly, my anticipation of the spectacle of Andrew Wakefield testifying was not to be. Yesterday, many of you sent my way this story:

Oregon legislators have canceled a meeting to discuss a bill that would eliminate nonmedical exemptions from Oregon's school immunization law, after it became clear that a controversial vaccine researcher who linked the measles, mumps, rubella vaccine with autism was planning to testify.

The Statesman Journal reported Tuesday that Andrew Wakefield, whose 1998 study was retracted from The Lancet and refuted by subsequent studies, was planning a trip to Salem to testify against Senate Bill 442.

He said in a phone interview on Wednesday that he objected to allegations made by Sen. Elizabeth Steiner Hayward, the bill's sponsor, that he committed scientific fraud in his research.

Sen. Laurie Monnes Anderson, D-Gresham, chairwoman of the Senate health care committee, said she canceled the March 9 informational meeting because she felt the first public hearing, on Feb. 18, provided enough information.

Poor, poor pitiful Andy! He's so toxic that the very mention of his potentially showing up to testify can shut down a legislative committee informational meeting. I don't believe it for a minute when Anderson claimed:

Monnes Anderson said her decision did not have anything to do with Wakefield's intentions to testify.

The March 9 meeting will only take invited testimony from constitutional law experts who will weigh in on the legality of SB 442, she said. During a work session, committee members can tweak the bill as well as vote on it.

Come on. Does Anderson really think her constituents are that stupid? Maybe she does. In any case, I'm torn by this decision. On the one hand, it would have been grand entertainment to see Andy trotted out in front of the committee to spew his usual brand of antivaccine misinformation, and I bet that he would not have been particularly impressive, old fraudster that Deer showed him to be. In fact, I rather suspect he would have inadvertently helped the cause of eliminating non-medical exemptions in Oregon. After all, what better weapon would those supporting the bill have than to be able to attach the name of someone as disreputable as Andrew Wakefield to opposition to SB442? On the other hand, there would have been a chance that letting him testify would have actually elevated him, made him less disreputable. In any event, my guess is that Anderson saw that letting Wakefield testify would turn her committee's "informational event" into a media circus. No, strike that. It would have turned it into a circus. So she wisely canceled, because Wakefield is just that toxic.

My only consolation in this is that antivaccinationists seem to be their own worst enemies. As I said before, anyone with an ounce of political savvy would have realized that letting someone like Andrew Wakefield testify, someone who is (1) famous, (2) discredited, and (3) highly disreputable, testify is the same thing as putting his face on the opposition. There's no way this could have ended well for antivaccinationists. In fact, the chiropractors and antivaccine "health freedom" types who pushed to get Wakefield on the list of people giving testimony should thank Monnes Anderson profusely for saving themelves from themselves.

They won't, of course, They are just that deluded as to believe that having Wakefield's chance to testify yanked hurt them. But, hey, according to news reports, Wakefield wants to hold a town hall meeting in Portland. Somehow, I doubt that will go very well, either. After all, remember what happened the last time Wakefield tried to have a "town hall" meeting to protest to what he viewed as a pro-vaccine provocation. "Pitiful" doesn't begin to describe it.

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Sure but that’s your article endorsing bifidobacterium on a website that happens to sell it. Sure seems like far more of a COI than Orac has ever had.

It may well not be Keith Bell's COI, but it certainly appears to be one for the web site.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

Keith: A hypothesis requires evidence.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

Correction: For a scientist, a hypothesis is where science begins, for a false scientist, a hypothesis is where it ends. We still require evidence.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

Keith Bell: "Gut-brain is new territory for everyone."

Yup, because Wakefield made it up wholesale ten years ago. The only people who are dumb enough to think it exists are laypeople who think they know everything (and are wrong about almost everything) and doctors who've let their brains fall out or graduated by accident.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

capnkrunch said:
"Ah ha! I was so busy digging through the trees I didn’t see the forest. The microbiome is actually the least important thing here since you’re not claiming it as a mechanism."

On the contrary, I am claiming the microbiome as mechanism. Doesn't that feel good to consider vaccines aren't the only problem in vaccine injury?

Politicalguineapig, you really don't believe the gut-brain connection even exists? Tough crowd!

Good day all. It's like pissing up a rope with this crowd.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

Keith, if you want us to believe that something exists, you had best provide us with evidence of it. If I accused you of being a warlock and placing curses on people to make money selling medicine, would I have to provide evidence for my claim, or should we just set you on fire, just to be sure?

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

Good day all. It’s like pissing up a rope with this crowd.

I believe this calls for a little Ween.

The brain is also known to make its own insulin, i.e., type 3 diabetes (Alzheimer’s). All the major neurodegenerative diseases including MS, Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s are now thought to begin in the gut.

Ah, Passive Voice! Is there anything that can't be done by it?

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

Keith Bell@510

On the contrary, I am claiming the microbiome as mechanism.

In what way? Everything you've been saying sounds like the microbiome predisposes some children to inflammatory intestinal injury from vaccines. Predisposing factors are not a mechanism. I've yet to see you explain how exactly the injury occurs.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

Better to be a little behind than a big ass

should read as 'better to be an asshole than a whole ass', Keith Bell #496.

PgP makes me want to copulate. With extreme predjudice.

By discontinuous … (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

KBell: Dude, I'm still not convinced of oxytocin, and that, unlike the gut-brain connection, has been documented. Oh, and before you go on about how gut-brain has been 'documented' try finding sources who wouldn't need to be double-checked if they stated the sky was blue. Heck, if Wakefield or you predicted rain in my area, I'd assume a drought was imminent.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

Gray Falcon@511

If I accused you of being a warlock and placing curses on people to make money selling medicine, would I have to provide evidence for my claim, or should we just set you on fire, just to be sure?

You'd have to at least check if he weighs the same as a duck first.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

515: Save it for the bar, okay?

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

-The resultant elevated blood serotonin levels lead to neurological damage that manifests as autism, epilepsy, etc

No, it's serotonin deficiency, silly. Or maybe both, whatever.

Now that he's flounced off yet again to bask in the satisfaction of another successful round of demonstrating that Orac is powerless in the face of KEITHBELL generally Sad Sacking the joint up, though, I suppose there's nothing left to do but wait for someone to translate his concepts, kinda like with Shin Mochizuki.

It’s like pissing up a rope with this crowd.
I live a sheltered life and I have no experience of that particular cabaret act.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

Poli-pig would probably have a very hard time believing in the gut-brain-heart connection where CO2 imbalances of gut origin affect the brain via the serotonergic system leading to cardiac arrest in SIDS.

Today's news: "researchers induced cardiac arrest in rats by having them breathe carbon dioxide"
http://www.livescience.com/50389-cardiac-arrest-dying-brain-signals.html

CO2 is also used to quickly halt seizure. Who's soaking-up CO2 in your intestines, pig? Or are intracellular microbes interfering with CO2 production in your Krebs cycle?

This group treats the body as would an auto mechanic. Parts are parts, but we're not the only part. The vaccine industry doesn't factor microbial predisposition in causing injury. Narad's correct, we need science in this area, but so far I can't find a willing vaccine scientist; struck out with three labs so far, probably all based on fear of jeopardizing future Pharma funds. Vaccine scientists aren't really interested in safety.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

Poli-pig would probably have a very hard time believing in the gut-brain-heart connection where CO2 imbalances of gut origin affect the brain via the serotonergic system leading to cardiac arrest in SIDS.

The words are English, correctly spelled and organised in a grammatically correct way, but make as much sense as "colourless green ideas sleep furiously". If it were true that carbon dioxide was entering the bloodstream from the intestine, then wouldn't methane and hydrogen sulphide do the same?

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

Not sure about hydrogen sulphide but hydrogen and methane do get into the blood stream from the gut and are transported into the lungs to be exhaled.

This is why hydogen and methane breath tests post indigestible by humans and fermented by bacteia carbohydrates produce data (some question as to how well they work for diagnosing things from the data).

They typically focus on those gases that humans generally don't release as part of their normal metabolism. Some nonsense about signal to noise ratio or other.

do get into the blood stream from the gut and are transported into the lungs to be exhaled.

That's the thing about carbon dioxide in the bloodstream... whereever it comes from -- exercise, or basal metabolism, or someone blowing smoke up one's ass -- we have this mechanism called "breathing" that gets rid of it.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

@ken:
Aren't you at least a little bit curious about how a €30,000 grant will typically get spent?

By justthestats (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

Julian, the liver receives 80% of its blood flow via the portal vein from the intestines and other gut organs. Blood gases are definitely affected by intestinal flora. People with liver diseases also have abnormal blood gases.

Methane in the blood can only be the product of bacteria/archaea. Btw, methane cause constipation leading to low levels of serotonin.

"Various studies demonstrated that blood-borne methane in humans is mainly originating from
anaerobic fermentation in the large intestine. Methane can then traverse the intestinal mucosa
and be absorbed into the systemic circulation."
http://staff.technikum-wien.at/~teschl/FFOeFH2015_UT.pdf

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

if it were true that carbon dioxide was entering the bloodstream from the intestine, then wouldn’t methane and hydrogen sulphide do the same?

I've an idea that it may be possible with higher absolute pressure across selective membrains; Particularly hydrogen sulphide. I suspect it *does* happen in some individuals.

I can attest that drinking 'young', unclarified wine with still active yeast can lead to spectacular results.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccharomyces

Auto-brewery syndrome, also known as gut fermentation syndrome, is a rare medical condition in which intoxicating quantities of ethanol are produced through endogenous fermentation within the digestive system. Numerous cases have been documented in the medical literature. One gastrointestinal organism, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, has been identified as a pathogen for this condition... It has also been investigated, but eliminated, as a possible cause of sudden infant death syndrome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-brewery_syndrome

Auto-brewery syndrome, also known as gut fermentation syndrome, is a rare medical condition in which intoxicating quantities of ethanol are produced through endogenous fermentation within the digestive system made-up bullsh1t. Numerous cases have been documented in the medical literature invented.

It was laughed out of court in a 2000 review:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10976182

The most recent case-study -- featured heavily in the Whackyweedia article -- was the work of an aromatherapy quack, published in a bottom-feeding mockademic 'journal'... which was no obstacle to the HuffPost picking it up, followed by Fox News (by way of the Daily Fail and the Torygraph).

The Whackyweedia entry is deeply dishonest; the authors cite the critical 2000 refutation as support for the imaginary condition's existence.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

Oh, great, KEITHBELL's mighty flounce didn't last a day.

Right on cue, ken links to "The most recent case-study [...] the work of an aromatherapy quack, published in a bottom-feeding mockademic ‘journal’ ".
It's still the same fraudulent case-study from an essential-oil grifter.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

I think the devil has a very good case for acquittal on appeal, based on complete incompetence of council.

1]
K. Iwata, “A Review of the Literature on Drunken Syndromes Due to Yeasts in the Gastrointestinal Tract,” University of Tokyo Press, Tokyo, 1972, pp. 260-268.
[2]
H. Kaji, Y. Asanuma, H. Ide, N. Saito, M. Hisamura, M. Murao, T. Yoshida and K. Takahashi, “The Auto-Brewery Syndrome—The Repeated Attacks of Alcoholic Intoxication Due to the Overgrowth of Candida (Albicans) in the Gastrointestinal Tract,” Materia Medica Polona, Vol. 4, No. 29, 1976, pp. 429-435.
[3]
A. Dahshan and K. Donovan, “Auto-Brewery Syndrome in a Child with Short Gut Syndrome: Case Report and Review of the Literature,” Journal of Pediatric Gastroenterology and Nutrition, Vol. 33, No. 2, 2001, pp. 214215. doi:10.1097/00005176-200108000-00024
[4]
E. Jansson-Nettelbladt, S. Meurling, B. Petrini and J. Sjolin, “Endogenous Ethanol Fermentation in a Child with Short Bowel Syndrome,” Acta Paediatrica, Vol. 95, No. 4, 2006, pp. 502-504.
[5]
A. Hunnisett and J. Howard, “Gut Fermentation (or the ‘Auto-Brewery’) Syndrome: A New Clinical Test with Initial Observations and Discussion of Clinical and Biochemical Implications,” Journal of Nutritional Medicine, Vol. 1, No. 1, 1990, pp. 33-39. doi:10.3109/13590849009003132

To his credit, KEITHBELL* at least comedically demonstrated yet more of his trademark word association–based "reasoning."

Julian, the liver receives 80% of its blood flow via the portal vein from the intestines and other gut organs. Blood gases are definitely affected by intestinal flora. People with liver diseases also have abnormal blood gases.

This is a weird attempt to... wait for it... recycle #265, with the bonus of utterly failing to understand what high pCO₂ means.

* I should perhaps clarify that I use this as his Name Of Power, whereas "Bellend" is reserved for his descents into utter scumbaggery.

1]
K. Iwata, “A Review of the Literature on Drunken Syndromes Due to Yeasts in the Gastrointestinal Tract,” University of Tokyo Press, Tokyo, 1972, pp. 260-268.

[2]
H. Kaji, Y. Asanuma, H. Ide, N. Saito, M. Hisamura, M. Murao, T. Yoshida and K. Takahashi, “The Auto-Brewery Syndrome—The Repeated Attacks of Alcoholic Intoxication Due to the Overgrowth of Candida (Albicans) in the Gastrointestinal Tract,” Materia Medica Polona, Vol. 4, No. 29, 1976, pp. 429-435.

[3]
A. Dahshan and K. Donovan, “Auto-Brewery Syndrome in a Child with Short Gut Syndrome: Case Report and Review of the Literature,” Journal of Pediatric Gastroenterology and Nutrition, Vol. 33, No. 2, 2001, pp. 214215. doi:10.1097/00005176-200108000-00024

[4]
E. Jansson-Nettelbladt, S. Meurling, B. Petrini and J. Sjolin, “Endogenous Ethanol Fermentation in a Child with Short Bowel Syndrome,” Acta Paediatrica, Vol. 95, No. 4, 2006, pp. 502-504.

[5]
A. Hunnisett and J. Howard, “Gut Fermentation (or the ‘Auto-Brewery’) Syndrome: A New Clinical Test with Initial Observations and Discussion of Clinical and Biochemical Implications,” Journal of Nutritional Medicine, Vol. 1, No. 1, 1990, pp. 33-39. doi:10.3109/13590849009003132

[6]
K. Eaton, “Gut Fermentation: A Reappraisal of an Old Clinical Condition with Diagnostic Tests and Management: Discussion Paper,” Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine, Vol. 84, No. 11, 1991, pp. 669-671.

[7]
A. Al-Awadhi, I. Wasfi, F. Al-Reyami and Z. Al-Hatali, “Autobrewing Revisited: Endogenous Concentrations of Blood Ethanol in Residents of the United Arab Emirates,” Science and Justice, Vol. 44, No. 3, 2004, pp. 149-152. doi:10.1016/S1355-0306(04)71707-4

[8]
S. Fleming, D. Marthinsen and H. Kuhnlein, “Colonic Function and Fermentation in Men Consuming High Fiber Diets,” Journal of Nutrition, Vol. 113, No. 12, 1983, pp. 2535-2544. http://jn.nutrition.org/content/113/12/2535.full.pdf+html?sid=ca1b1840-…

[9]
S. Rao, C. Edwards, C. Austen, C. Bruce and N. Read, “Impaired Colonic Fermentation of Carbohydrate after Ampicillin,” Gastroenterology, Vol. 94, No. 4, 1988, pp. 928-932.

[10]
J. Sauer, K. Richter and B. Pool-Zobel, “Products Formed during Fermentation of the Prebiotic Inulin with Human Gut Flora Enhance Expression of Biotransformation Genes in Human Primary Colon Cells,” British Journal of Nutrition, Vol. 97, No. 5, 2007, pp. 928-938. doi:10.1017/S0007114507666422

[11]
W. Bivin and B. Heinen, “Production of Ethanol from Infant Food Formulas by Common Yeasts,” Journal of Applied Bacteriology, Vol. 58, No. 4, 1985, pp. 355-357. doi:10.1111/j.1365-2672.1985.tb01473.x

[12]
A. Enache-Angoulvant and C. Hennequin, “Invasive Saccharomyces Infection: A Comprehensive Review,” Clinical Infectious Diseases, Vol. 41, No. 11, 2005, pp. 15591568. doi:10.1086/497832

[13]
P. Munoz, E. Bouza, M. Cuenca-Estrella, J. Eiros, M. Perez, M. Sanchez-Somolinos, C. Rincon, J. Horta and T. Pelaez, “Saccharomyces cerevisiae Fungemia: An Emerging Infectious Disease,” Clinical Infectious Diseases, Vol. 40, No. 11, 2005, pp. 1625-1634. doi:10.1086/429916

[14]
A. Riquelme, M. Calvo, A. Guzman, et al., “Saccharomyces cerevisiae Fungemia after Saccharomyces boulardii Treatment in Immunocompromised Patients,” Journal of Clinical Gastroenterology, Vol. 36, No. 1, 2002, pp. 41-43. doi:10.1097/00004836-200301000-00013

[15]
W. Olver, S. James, A. Lennard, A. Galloway, T. Roberts, T. Boswell and N. Russell, “Nosocomial Transmission of Saccharomyces cerevisiae in Bone Marrow Transplant Patients,” Journal of Hospital Infection, Vol. 52, No. 4, 2002, pp. 268-272. doi:10.1053/jhin.2002.1314

[16]
J. Perapoch, A. Planes, A. Querol, V. Lopez, I. MartinezBendayan, R. Tormo, F. Fernandez, G. Peguero and S. Salcedo, “Fungemia with Saccharomyces cerevisiae in Two Newborns, Only One of Whom Had Been Treated with Ultra-Levura,” European Journal of Clinical Microbiology and Infectious Diseases, Vol. 19, No. 6, 2000, pp. 468-470. doi:10.1007/s100960000295

  

Well done ken, you have copy-pasted from Cordell's mendacious "case study". Would you care to make a point in your own words?

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

so far I can’t find a willing vaccine scientist; struck out with three labs so far, probably all based on fear of jeopardizing future Pharma funds

Thank G-d you're not just whining that Orac trembles before the Zardoz-like visage of KEITHBELL.

#538 No point- No time to read links. What's the problem? It's weird and funny and maybe true. Do you always "kill the messenger". One thing I know for sure-the sun will rise tomorrow.
Descartes famous line-"The first precept was never to accept a thing as true until I knew it as such without a single doubt."
Rene Descartes

No time to read links.

I shall take this as advice on how to deal with ken's comments.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

My point would be, herr doktor bimler #538, that whatever is going on, it takes a few days and a handfull of probiotics to rid one of increased, continuous 'squirting, rumblings' and obnoxious miasmatic effluence.

If one is dependent and thinks he may be going to jail for a short stent, then perhaps it would be prudent to induce this condition and watch your starch intake only so much as required to 'sedate' and 'keep one's mouth shut'.

I do note that those 'probiotics' come in 'targeted release' capsules which bypass stomach acid (although, some such as K1-V1116 (Lalvin) survive the trip through anyways.

"It was laughed out of court"

herr doktor bimler #529, It was also *laughed out of court* on many occasions that I have suggested that officer Fuckme was not able to show any indication of 'impairment' or acting out of any concern for safety -- Your demeanor matters, slaves.

JF: I know, I'm having a hard time figuring out the post too. It doesn't help that Keith has a weak grasp on everything, from anatomy to mammalian orders. Rodents aren't the same as pigs.

KBell: I looked at the link and it says zilch about the gut. The cardiovascular system doesn't have much to do with the gut- and farts are made of METHANE, not carbon dioxide. As a rule, it's very hard to die from your own gas. (Which, unfortunately, means you will probably live a long time.)
Sure, there's a connection between the heart and gut via blood cells, but it's a weak one.
As long as you and Ken are here, would either one of you care to explain how, if autistic children have "leaky-gut" syndrome, they aren't dying left and right of sepsis? Because that's the usual result of having a hole in one's gut.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

Narad, you're the only reason I'm here. Let's pick out the curtains next Monday.

Seems people here are beginning to see Wakefield's point after this lengthy, educational thread. Even pig is beginning to recognize his own gut-brain connection after just two (2) beers. Young Julian is beginning to see the light.

"KEITHBELL: Why, precisely, do you think that microbial consumption of the intestinal mucosal barrier is a Good Thing?"

That's the kind of question I'd sooner expect from Orac .

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

Ken: Oh, boy, Descartes the failed philosopher. The man was a good mathematician, but he couldn't reason his way out of a paper bag.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

#509 PGP http://www.brainfacts.org/across-the-lifespan/diet-and-exercise/article…
The Mind-Bending Power of Bacteria-"OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH MICROBES is usually described as an arms race, with humans and bacteria on opposing sides. But, as new research is showing, a better metaphor is “brothers-in-arms.” The 10,000 or so different types of microbes, including bacteria, viruses and fungi, that inhabit our bodies form a balanced ecosystem called the microbiome. They are mostly beneficial – as integral to our survival as we are to theirs – helping us to digest food, make vitamins, combat infection and much more. 
In fact, evidence accumulated in the last five to 10 years shows that these microbes, which predominantly live in the gastrointestinal tract, shape the development and function of the brain. They influence a range of complex human behaviors, including learning and memory, mood and emotion, and appetite and satiety. They have also been linked to disorders of the central nervous system including anxiety, depression, autism and multiple sclerosis, which may be a consequence of an ecosystem that has fallen out of balance."

Intimate knowledge of the gut microbial ecosystem is essential to prevent devastating explosions during colonoscopy:

"Colonic Gas Explosion During Therapeutic Colonoscopy with Electrocautery," Spiros D Ladas, George Karamanolis, Emmanuel Ben-Soussan, World Journal of Gastroenterology, vol. 13, no. 40, October 2007, pp. 5295–8.

"Argon Plasma Coagulation in the Treatment of Hemorrhagic Radiation Proctitis is Efficient But Requires a Perfect Colonic Cleansing to Be Safe," E. Ben-Soussan, M. Antonietti, G. Savoye, S. Herve, P. Ducrotté, and E. Lerebours, European Journal of Gastroenterology and Hepatology, vol. 16, no. 12, December 2004, pp 1315-8.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

Ken: That's covered by #2 : "doctors who let their brain fall out."

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

Bacon, I like that first paper. Spontaneous combustion in humans is a matter of microbial imbalance, though most doctors would never suspect it since they live a sterile world. Let's call it Orac World, disconnected from the web of life.

pig, you're a walking compost heap.

"Honey, the baby's on fire again."
http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/doctors-suspect-rare-disease-…

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

Even pig is beginning to recognize his own gut-brain connection

Let me explain something very fυcking clearly to you, shіtwit: The last asshοle who tried to parade that "Look at the lima bean that got stuck to my dong!" routine around was the dental student.*

Things were going all too poorly for you already, Don't assume that "watch your tongue" represents a question, your demonstrably unhinged notions of symmetry notwithstanding.

* Did the meme-link comments get deleted? I can't find the one that linked to a memorialization of the former pronouncement.

#547 Authors of Study in #545 Are you simple-minded?
TRACY BALE, PhD - is a professor of neuroscience at the School of Veterinary Medicine and Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania. She is studying the effects of early prenatal stress on fetal brain development and has shown that they are partly mediated by the microbiome.
CHRISTOPHER LOWRY, PhD - is an associate professor in the Department of Integrative Physiology an Center for Neuroscience at the University of Colorado Boulder and director of the Behavioral Neuroendocrinology Laboratory. Lowry is developing new strategies to prevent and treat anxiety and depression, including the use of beneficial microbes that live in the gut.
SARKIS MAZMANIAN, PhD - is the Louis & Nelly Soux Professor of Microbiology at the California Institute of Technology and a 2012 MacArthur Fellow. A microbiologist and immunologist by training, Mazmanian studies how the brain, the immune system and the microbiome interact in health and disease, including autism spectrum disorder.

Keith Bell@521

Poli-pig would probably have a very hard time believing in the gut-brain-heart connection where CO2 imbalances of gut origin affect the brain via the serotonergic system leading to cardiac arrest in SIDS.

So the mechanism of SIDS is metabolic acidosis? I'd like to see your sources for that one. Since intestinal flora is a complicated subject and one rather outside my area of knowledge I've been (to an extent) giving you benefit of the doubt and assuming that things you said that didn't quite make sense were simply due to my own lack of knowledge. However, your apparent lack of understanding of blood gases, something I am rather familiar with seems to confirm my earlier suspicions that you are typing series of words that are, as Julian Frost put it, "...English, correctly spelled and organised in a grammatically correct way, but make as much sense as 'colourless green ideas sleep furiously'."

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

It's also somewhat telling that the more you're called on your misinformation the fewer references you've provided and the more you have peppered your replies with name calling.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

Spontaneous combustion in humans is a matter of microbial imbalance

If today is Self-Parody Day, I will be annoyed with everyone who didn't tell me.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

Not for the first time I amused and a little bemused by yet another person who has seized upon an idea, presumably after some kind of religious conversion experience, and now sees everything through in terms of that idea. For Keith everything, even spontaneous human combustion it seems, is about the microbiome. Not long ago we had APV who believes everything is about food allergies. Then there's the dingbat who shall not be named who is obsessed with l@tex allergy (he probably has a Google alert set up so I won't mention it in full). A couple of years ago there was the chap who was obsessed with blood glucose, and thought everything was caused by undetectable spikes in our blood glucose, and that epilepsy was our body's attempt to increase blood glucose by getting muscles to convert glucagon to glucose. There have been many others, stuck on mercury, or aluminum, or acidity, or imaginary healing energies (remember Bengston and his mice?).

There is so much information now available that it is possible to cherry-pick information to support just about any bat-sh!t crazy hypothesis that anyone can imagine. We see it so often, people who dismiss anything that doesn't fit their idée fixe and who have only a rudimentary understanding of the science involved so they will even believe studies that flatly contradict their beliefs actually support them. These ideas are often unshakable and impervious to information that throws any doubt upon them, which is often dismissed as coming from sources that are trying to cover up the truth. Once a person decides that shadowy elements (the CDC, FDA, Big Pharma or whoever) are working to cover up what is really going on they can justify throwing out anything that doesn't fit their beliefs. It's as if they have cut the last threads anchoring them to reality since literally nothing can ever convince them they are mistaken. It's sad, but I find it somehow fascinating.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

KBell: And once again, you continue to be wrong about *everything* including the person who you're talking about. I never comment after 2 beers. (One, maybe, but usually taken with food.)
I may have limited knowledge of anatomy, but I know enough to tell you that you are wrong. What you eat very rarely affects your brain unless the item was poisonous or made the person ill. If, for example, I took a history exam, what I ate will have no influence on the outcome of the test. Ditto if I had a colonoscopy, although it might provide the doctor with something interesting to look at.

For your education: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_pig

Since you seem to be confused about your mammals. Actually, you seem to be confused about *everything*, but at least I can help with the zoology.

Everyone: please don't tell KBell about his biggest mistake about me. I'd prefer *not* to break the site with profanity, and it's raining for the next few days.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

Concerning SIDS. You know, when I was born it was discouraged for a baby to sleep on its back. Nowadays, it is chastized to allow a neonatal to sleep on its stomach.

I'm getting the idea that it is 50/50 or none. That is to say, the neonatal has a greater risk of dying if allowed to sleep in the position it is most comfortable in; Perhaps due to an incomplete carbon dioxide reflex??

I note that, even before I became an amature some-time static apneist, it was pleasant to have dreams where I was breathing water or otherwise holding my breath for a long time.

It was a pleasant feeling to hyperventilate and show off my 5 min+ submersions.. this was before I learned of 'freedive samba':

is a loss of consciousness caused by cerebral hypoxia towards the end of a breath-hold dive in water typically shallower than five metres (16 feet), when the swimmer does not necessarily experience an urgent need to breathe and has no other obvious medical condition that might have caused it. It can be caused by taking several very deep breaths, or hyperventilating, just before a dive. Victims are often established practitioners of breath-hold diving, are fit, strong swimmers, and have not experienced problems before.

One simply looses the reflex to need to breath.

@ Krebiozen:

So true.
It is actually quite pathetic how alt med advocates go to such great lengths to cobble together material that, through fevered twisting and splicing, appears to support their fondest dreams. In truth, it's more like a collage.

I find it fascinating though disturbing. One small consolation is that many of these advocates are doing it for money thus it's not entirely beyond understanding.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

I took a history exam, what I ate will have no influence on the outcome of the test

You need to print the crucial facts and dates

on a thin wafer, with ink composed of a cephalic tincture. This, the student was to swallow upon a fasting stomach, and for three days following, eat nothing but bread and water. As the wafer digested, the tincture mounted to his brain, bearing the proposition along with it.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

hdb: never tried that.Does "of a cephalic tincture" indicate the ink should be squid ink or some sort of brains ground fine enough for use in ink?

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

Kreboizen@556
It reminds me of dealing with actively hallucinating or delusional patients. Of course you don't play along with their but you also don't try to rationalize them away. If it were that easy they'd already be cured. Fortunately we have pretty effective antipsychotics for patients. I don't know if there's a solution in these cases.

Certainly, trying to mount a rational argument against word salad seems like a losing proposition, and when it sounds so science-y and complex it's easy to assume (as I initially did) that you simply lack the knowledge to see why the conclusion follows the argument. Lack of a response or requesting explanation or clarification is easily (mis)construed as a concession.

Orac is quite effective at deconstructing these types of arguments but unfortunately not all of us are blessed with his Tariel cell-powered processing ability. And much like delusional patients a rational argument almost never works to convince True Believers.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink
By Keith Bell (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

Spontaneous combustion in humans...

No. Anything that is 70% water will not spontaneously combust.

The thing is, you want to sell toilets, and that's OK with me, because I think toilets are a good thing. You don't need to say gut bugs have the ability to make fire to do it. Just say they make the stinky potty stuff go away.

I especially like this one, capn:
Central serotonin neurons are required for arousal to CO2
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2941296/
"We propose that serotonin neurons mediate the potentially life-saving arousal response to hypercapnia. Impairment of this response may contribute to sudden unexpected death in epilepsy, sudden infant death syndrome, and sleep apnea."

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

Capnkrunch: " It reminds me of dealing with actively hallucinating or delusional patients."

I've had to do that twice, only I never got paid for it. The first time, I got a pamphlet which I had to deliver to a priest, despite not being Catholic. It was the easiest way to make the person go away. (How she got onto campus, I have no idea, but I think I still have the pamphlet somewhere.)

The second time, I had to reassure a friend who was smelling cologne at her house and assumed she was being stalked. I suggested it might be a hallucination, and that I could loan her my bo if she wanted. (It's basically a long stick.)

Wrong again, bud. Infants don't have serotonin.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

Spontaneous combustion in humans is a matter of microbial imbalance, though most doctors would never suspect it since they live a sterile world. Let’s call it Orac World, disconnected from the web of life.....

“Honey, the baby’s on fire again.”
ht[]p://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/doctors-suspect-rare-disease-might-have-afflicted-indian-child/?_r=0 [sic]

You are so fυcking stupid that it's not even funny, Bellend. Would you like to get back to to how measles is just like polio, O craven shіt?

Keith Bell@563
Nope, nope, nope. Here's your claim:

...CO2 imbalances of gut origin affect the brain via the serotonergic system leading to cardiac arrest in SIDS.

The study you cite looks affect of prior impairment of serotonin neurons in the presence of hypercapnia. That is significantly different from your claim. The reason why impaired arousal to hypercapnia is a life threat because increased CO2 is an indicator of ventilatory insufficiency and should stimulate the respiratory drive. If the increased CO2 is of gut origin then even if the serotonin neurons are impaired and the person is not aroused is will not cause immediate death. Buildup of CO2 from any origin will lead to acidosis but that will not kill quickly enough to account for SIDS.

I also can't help but note that there is no mention of the gut or microbiome in that paper. The serotonin neurons in the mice were genetically deleted as opposed to affected by increased CO2 as you claim and hypercapnia was induced by increasing the percentage of inhaled CO2 as opposed to the gut origin you claim. Sorry guy, try again.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

Nope, nope, nope. Here’s your claim

You're being quite uncharitable. Keith went so far as to extend his usual title-word associations by actually selecting a sentence from the abstract.

Does anyone else find it funny that KBell doesn't think doctors breathe or go outside?

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

Re: "spontaneous combustion"

Burning baby may be a victim of abuse

Unfortunately, India had until quite recently a strong tradition of "spontaneous combustion" and other "domestic incidents" involving e.g. mother-in-law accidentally spilling a bowl of fuel on wife and husband accidentally setting her on fire while rushing to help - in his hurry, he forgot to discard the lit rolled-up newspaper he was carrying around for some reason...

Not that domestic abuse is non-existent in my country. Mentalities are changing, but slowly...

By Helianthus (not verified) on 07 Apr 2015 #permalink

#566: "Infants don’t have serotonin."

About 95% of the body's serotonin is intestinal, regulated by flora. What happens in the brain when serotonin and CO2 levels are out of balance? It's associated with glutamate excitotoxicity and mitochondrial damage.

Time to factor the gut-brain in vaccine injury beginning in the gut.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0969996114003611
http://www.nature.com/cdd/journal/v18/n2/full/cdd201092a.html
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0120881
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0014299912009004
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/omcl/aa/964518/
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40263-015-0225-3
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165572801003587
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165572802000292
http://jvi.asm.org/content/85/23/12464.full
(I'll refrain from posting the work of Russell Blaylock here to save Narad from spontaneous combustion.)

What can the vaccine industry do to protect the vulnerable from injury? Probiotics? Never studied.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 08 Apr 2015 #permalink

KBell: I don't think you read any of those links or paid attention to what I said earlier about unreliable sources. The Nature link says nothing about serotonin, and two of the authors sound like they're from woo-infested instituitions. The rest are from journals that will publish anything so long as they're paid.

The vaccine industry already takes thousands of precautions to avoid long-term injury, and in many cases, the best way to protect the 'vulnerable' is to get them vaccinated. "Vaccine Damage" is the invention of a coalition of grifters and the dim- no wonder you believe in it, because you're both.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 08 Apr 2015 #permalink

Helianthus,

Re: “spontaneous combustion”

In India about 25 years ago I read accounts of these 'accidents' over and over again in The Times of India. The tradition of sati (bride-burning) may have something to do with it. I remember at the gate to a fort in Rajastan (I forget which) seeing hand-prints in the plaster that our guide told us were of the brides of some Raja who had died and was being cremated with all his wives. They were so tiny that they must surely have been children. It was a sickening sight. Surprisingly it still happens occasionally today.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 08 Apr 2015 #permalink

pig, the source of serotonin used in fetal brain development is the placenta. Of course, we now know the healthy placenta is packed with microbes, once considered sterile. So, how might these microbes contribute to tryptophan metabolism, precursor of serotonin?

Gestational diabetes rates on the rise are a matter of microbial imbalance, associated with fetal serotonin imbalances:
http://stke.sciencemag.org/content/8/358/ec1.abstract
http://www.nature.com/news/bacteria-found-in-healthy-placentas-1.15274
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v472/n7343/full/nature09972.html
http://www.npr.org/2011/04/20/135569520/babies-developing-brains-fed-by…

This is about microbial predisposition of the very real problem of vaccine injury.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 08 Apr 2015 #permalink

In a Women's Studies seminar I took some years ago, I remember reading an article about those "accidents" - as I recall, it wasn't so much to do with sati as it was with bride price extortion. Basically a new husband would make all kinds of demands for possessions/money, and if the bride's family didn't or couldn't pay up, he'd set her on fire or throw acid on her face.

^ Dowry, not bride price, of course.

Wondering how pig became such an impudent turkey. Never thought it possible for a single individual to embarrass such a sorry group of vaccine injury denialists.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 08 Apr 2015 #permalink

Never thought it possible for a single individual to embarrass such a sorry group of vaccine injury denialists.

Of course, no one here has advanced the position that vaccines are incapable of causing adverse events (i.e., 'vaccine injuiry').

What is being acknowledged--accurately--is that the adverse consequences associated with vaccination are well understood, with those that are common being both transient and minor (e.g., soreness at the site of injection, low grade fever) and those that are serious being all but vanishingly rare (e.g., encephalopathy) such that any rational comparison of relative risk strongly argues in support of routinechildhood vaccination.

Keith Bell predictably follows the standard quack pattern. Make BS claims. Cite irrelevant or grossly misinterpreted references when challenged. When this is pointed out enough, fling poo.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 08 Apr 2015 #permalink

I'm still waiting for Keith Bell to get a research team funded to look into his claims for the gut microbiome (not to be confused with the gut Thuderdome, though there are similarities).

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 08 Apr 2015 #permalink

capn, please explain the mechanism behind vaccine-induced seizure. I've already provided my construct, what's yours?

JGC, you may not believe vaccines can cause autism, epilepsy and SIDS, but there are plenty of people who do, including the CDC. What I've done is try to provide biological plausibility. Vaccine injury is not nearly as rare as you believe. What can be done about it?

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 08 Apr 2015 #permalink

@ MO'B

I’m still waiting for Keith Bell to get a research team funded to look into his claims for the gut microbiome (not to be confused with the gut Thuderdome, though there are similarities).

I personally would like him to explain how an unbalanced gut microbiome is the reason behind spontaneous combustion, alluded in #550.
The way the thread is devolving right now, let's be proactive and ask also what's the relationship between the gut microbiome and alien abductions.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 08 Apr 2015 #permalink

Dude, I'm just pointing out that you are a fool. Actually, you're more than that, but any synonyms I can think of are glaringly inadequate. I could happily insult you all day long. If you ever want to do some actual learning, you could start with the wikipedia link I posted and then actually read the stuff Orac and the others posted.

And I never said vaccines don't come with risk, I just said that long-term effects are very rare. Longterm effects of mumps, measles and rubella are a lot more common and very devastating.
Oh, and the CDC does not believe vaccines cause autism, epilepsy or SIDS. One amazingly dim former employee did, but there''s a reason he's no longer employed there.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 08 Apr 2015 #permalink

Keith Bell@582

capn, please explain the mechanism behind vaccine-induced seizure.

We were talking about SIDS, no? Let's try to stay on topic.

I’ve already provided my construct...

And I've already voiced my concerns with it, in particular how little your reference had to do with your claim. I'll quote myself (and fix up the grammar a bit while I'm at it) since you apparently didn't read my comment:

The study you cite looks at the effect of prior impairment of serotonin neurons in the presence of hypercapnia. That is significantly different from your claim. The reason why impaired arousal to hypercapnia is a life threat is because increased CO2 is an indicator of ventilatory insufficiency and should stimulate the respiratory drive. If the increased CO2 is of gut origin then even if the serotonin neurons are impaired and the person is not aroused is will not cause immediate death. Buildup of CO2 from any origin can lead to acidosis but that will not kill quickly enough to account for SIDS.

I also can’t help but note that there is no mention of the gut or microbiome in that paper. The serotonin neurons in the mice were genetically deleted as opposed to affected by increased CO2 as you claim and hypercapnia was induced by increasing the percentage of inhaled CO2 as opposed to the gut origin you claim. Sorry guy, try again.

How about you address my comments instead of redirecting?

...what’s yours?

Just because we don't know the cause of SIDS doesn't make you any less wrong.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 08 Apr 2015 #permalink

JP,

In a Women’s Studies seminar I took some years ago, I remember reading an article about those “accidents” – as I recall, it wasn’t so much to do with sati as it was with bride price dowry extortion.

Agreed, but I suspect the cultural history of burning women makes it a little less horrific in some people's eyes.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 08 Apr 2015 #permalink

Quite possibly, but then Europe and America don't actually lack a cultural history of burning women either.

OK. Now I know Keith Bell is a fool (with apologies to Fools throughout the ages).

Keith: Placentas ARE sterile. So is amniotic fluid. So is a baby's urine and intestinal tract *until* they go through delivery. A non-sterile placenta usually means a very nasty infection for mother and child. Strangely enough, most of the insides of a human being, barring those that are exposed to the outside world (respiratory and GI tracts come to mind) are sterile.

bacteria: you keep using that word....

pig, since when is William Thompson no longer a senior scientist at the CDC? Did I miss some big news?

Dawn, you're amazingly misinformed. Please do some research. Nothing is sterile.
http://www.nature.com/news/bacteria-found-in-healthy-placentas-1.15274
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/29/science/human-microbiome-may-be-seede…

capn, of course that one study doesn't completely back my theory. It's just one of many citations and it shows pieces of the puzzle . . . CO2, serotonin, thalamocortical networks/glutamate receptors. I just wanted you to see how CO2 is involved in SIDS and SUDEP. Combine this with serotonin imbalances of gut origin and you have a recipe for brain injury/fatality with and without vaccination.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 08 Apr 2015 #permalink

Keith seems determined to put together the most convoluted and complicated matrix of cause and affect to show....something?

Maybe I missed it, but by what method are vaccines (delivered in a variety of different ways, from injection to ingestion to inhalation) supposed to do all of the things that he says they do?

JGC, you may not believe vaccines can cause autism, epilepsy and SIDS, but there are plenty of people who do, including the CDC.

Keith, are
you suffering from the dual misapprehension that 1) Thompson possesses the authority to speak for the CDC and 2) that he's provided any evidence whatsoever supporting a causal association between vaccination and ASD's?

Keith bell, please put William Thompson into the search box at the top of the page. Orac has discussed him before. Suffice to say, if you're bringing him up to support your case, you're naive.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 08 Apr 2015 #permalink

Keith Bell@590

It’s just one of many citations and it shows pieces of the puzzle . . .

It's shows pieces to >a puzzle, but not the one you're doing.

CO2, serotonin, thalamocortical networks/glutamate receptors.

Well, it contains all those words; I'll give you that.

I just wanted you to see how CO2 is involved in SIDS and SUDEP.

It's not in the way you think it is. Recall:

…CO2 imbalances of gut origin affect the brain via the serotonergic system leading to cardiac arrest in SIDS.

Note that CO2 imbalances of gut origin would not be associated with ventilatory failure. From your reference:

However, when an individual is asleep with the face covered by a blanket or pillow, the hypercapnic arousal response can be just as important as the hypercapnic ventilatory response, because waking up is necessary to relieve the airflow obstruction.

Infants with SIDS are also often found prone (46), and it has been proposed that a defect in the response to CO2 and an impaired ability to arouse from sleep both contribute to the death of these infants (46, 47).

Hypercapnia is a symptom of respiratory failure. It is not the causal factor. How about you try showing how hypercapnia without associated ventilatory insufficiency is associated with SIDS?

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 08 Apr 2015 #permalink

Note: I said CO2 imbalances, not necessarily metabolic acidosis.

Can't quite help but tip your lack of a hand even in the best of circumstances, can you?

Narad@595
I missed that one. The nice thing about Keith Bell is he casts his net so wide that he's almost guarenteed to hit on something that you understand well enough to see his bull for what it is. I don't know (nor do I really care to learn) much about intestinal flora but when he starts talking blood gases I can see Keith's basic A&P failures clear as day.

@Keith Bell,
Some blood gas 101 seems to be in order. Most CO2 is transported in the blood as carbonic acid, therefore increased CO2 leads to acidosis. Acidosis not of respiratory origin is called metabolic acidosis, therefore acidosis caused by CO2 from the GI tract is metabolic acidosis.

I was throwing you a bone man. If you could've produced references showing that metabolic acidosis could cause sudden death I would've had to admit you had an interesting point. Instead your reference was about failure to clear airway obstruction causing SIDS. CO2 in that case is only relevant as a sign of the ventilatory failure not a causal mechanism.

I took a look at your other studies in #563. In order:

Sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) is postulated to result from abnormalities in brainstem control of autonomic function and breathing during a critical developmental period.

---

Central chemoreception is the mechanism by which the brain detects the level of carbon dioxide (CO2) in the arterial blood and alters breathing accordingly in order to maintain it within physiological levels.

---

Serotonin is known to play a role in central chemosensitivity, and we hypothesized that increasing the availability of 5-HT in this mouse model would improve their respiratory response to CO2.

---
I already covered this one.
---
Skipping this one on epilepsy. I'd like to stay focused on SIDS.
---

SIDS is postulated to result from failed autoresuscitation and inadequate or inappropriate cardiorespiratory network function and responses to challenges such as hypoxia and/or hypercapnia. Multiple postmortem reports of SIDS victims indicate that hypoxic episodes precipitate respiratory distress which is accompanied and/or preceded by bradycardia before the fatal event (Meny et al., 1994).

---
This one is bizzare. CAD is not an issue in infants and the people studied were 41-90 with a mean age of 65.

The ones I just quoted all postulate a respiratory cause of death. CO2 levels in these cases is important because it is the primary respiratory drive. CO2 of gut origin would not be associated with respiratory failure and you have yet to say how exactly it causes sudden death.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 09 Apr 2015 #permalink

This is another fine example of KEITHBELL being just too darn busy to actually read his sources:

What happens in the brain when serotonin and CO2 levels are out of balance? It’s associated with glutamate excitotoxicity and mitochondrial damage.

Time to factor the gut-brain in vaccine injury beginning in the gut....
http://jvi.asm.org/content/85/23/12464.full

Nice concession here from sterile Orac World™:
"I don’t know (nor do I really care to learn) much about intestinal flora" - capnkrunch

I'm more concerned about CO2 deficiency due to imbalanced flora dysregulating the serotonergic system. Perhaps it's not a matter of CO2 of gut origin, but lack of CO2. Microbes use CO2 to make other things. capn, have you ever heard of CO2 used to immediately halt seizure suggesting deficiency?

Similarly, serotonin deficiency in linked with SIDS and constipation (95% of our serotonin is intestinal):
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=185314

The only thing not sterile around here is Narad's shorts. capn, I suggest you begin integrating the gut with your knowledge of blood gases; you might just become a pioneer in the field. Interesting how CO2 diffuses in either direction across intestinal mucosa:
http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/largegut/flatus…

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 09 Apr 2015 #permalink

I’m more concerned about CO2 deficiency due to imbalanced flora dysregulating the serotonergic system.... (95% of our serotonin is intestinal)

Jesus Christ, you just can't stop digging that hole, can you? I mean, I've only sat in one one graduate neuropsychopharm class, but at least I passed the freaking final.

You're babbling incoherently. All you're able to do is express "concerns"* and try to Gish gallop around by tossing out papers that (1) you don't understand, (2) you haven't even read, (3) have nothing to do with any of your random "points," or (4) all of the above.

Perhaps this impresses the shіtwitted denizens of GMI; I suggest that you stay there.

* Previously, "I’m more concerned about serotonin deficiency than surplus since it’s correlated with SIDS and constipation." Now, "have you ever heard of CO2 used to immediately halt seizure suggesting deficiency?" And you have no fυcking idea of the undiluted idiocy of that statement. Not only have you studiously ignored the clue provided to you about respiratory acidosis, the effect isn't mediated by 5-HT, not that there was any G-ddamned reason to think it would be in the first place. It would have taken you five freaking minutes to sort that out if you were only able to read your own source.

Keith Bell,
Let's keep it simple this time. I just have 2 requests:
1. Please provide a reference for "co2 deficiency due to imbalanced flora dysregulating the serotonergic system."

2. Please be specific as to what you propose fatal event is in your model of SIDS.

Here's some hints:
-Every reference you gave before was about hypercarbia.
-Cause of death and fatal event are not neccessarily the same. Eg. cause of death - cancer, fatal event - stroke.
-You are missing a few steps showing how exactly serotonin dysregulation due to flora imbalance leads to death.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 09 Apr 2015 #permalink

What I stated was CO2 imbalances affect the serotonergic system leading to glutamate excitoxicity and SIDS. This could mean either high or low CO2.

The "respiratory cause of death" in SIDS is about the brain turning off the heart via dysregulation of cardiac vagal neurons and parasympathetic activity to the heart. It's not about respiratory acidosis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3215848/
http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/100/5/483.full

This dynamic was illustrated in the news a couple days ago:
“researchers induced cardiac arrest in rats by having them breathe carbon dioxide”
http://www.livescience.com/50389-cardiac-arrest-dying-brain-signals.html

That said, lungs may be involved in some cases (infection); lung-brain connection including hypercapnia and hypocapnia. There's also the connection of gut to lungs via the liver. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3099516/

There's also such thing as paradoxical acidosis due to low CO2: http://jap.physiology.org/content/17/2/283

Hypercapnia as cause of seizure during recovery suggests CO2 levels swinging like a pendulum negatively affecting the sertonergic system where serotonin itself fluctuates based on state of intestinal health: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8858699

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 09 Apr 2015 #permalink

"1. Please provide a reference for “co2 deficiency due to imbalanced flora dysregulating the serotonergic system.”"

There are none I'm aware of, that's my theory. Thanks for asking.

"2. Please be specific as to what you propose fatal event is in your model of SIDS."

The “respiratory cause of death” in SIDS is about the brain turning off the heart via dysregulation of cardiac vagal neurons and parasympathetic activity to the heart. It’s not about respiratory acidosis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3215848/
http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/100/5/483.full

This dynamic was illustrated in the news a couple days ago:
“researchers induced cardiac arrest in rats by having them breathe carbon dioxide”
http://www.livescience.com/50389-cardiac-arrest-dying-brain-signals.html

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 09 Apr 2015 #permalink

"Research" being code for rectally sourced, but everyone probably knows that by now.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 09 Apr 2015 #permalink

pig, I suggest you grab the next opportunity to eat a placenta for the serotonin and other brain chemicals produced:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/mothers-who-eat-a-newborn-s-p…
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3632750/
http://www.newsweek.com/placenta-eating-mothers-face-witch-hunt-trend-t…

And if it's a good placenta, you'll also receive probiotic therapy. People here is Orac World™ need to know placentas aren't sterile.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 10 Apr 2015 #permalink

What I stated was CO2 imbalances affect the serotonergic system leading to glutamate excitoxicity and SIDS. This could mean either high or low CO2.

It just gets better and better as Bellend, to whom I shall herewith refer as "Meatotomy," starts blowing gaskets. Let's review again:

Are you constipated? This leads to serotonin deficiency and glutamate excitotoxicity. Please don’t sleep in the face-down prone position to avoid stimulation of the serotonergic sytstem by CO2 and cardiac arrest.

-----

I’m more concerned about serotonin deficiency than surplus since it’s correlated with SIDS and constipation.

-----

I’m more concerned about CO2 deficiency due to imbalanced flora dysregulating the serotonergic system. Perhaps it’s not a matter of CO2 of gut origin, but lack of CO2. Microbes use CO2 to make other things. capn, have you ever heard of CO2 used to immediately halt seizure suggesting deficiency?

Similarly, serotonin deficiency in [sic] linked with SIDS and constipation (95% of our serotonin is intestinal):
h[]tp://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=185314

"We hypothesize that TPH2 levels are reduced in the medullary 5-HT system for as-yet unknown developmental, genetic, and/or environmental reasons, with a secondary reduction in 5-HT levels and impaired 5-HT neurotransmission.[33] We further propose that insufficient 5-HT levels early in development, potentially as early as the first or second trimester, result in a compensatory increase in immature 5-HT neurons with immature (decreased) 5-HT1A binding and 5-HT transporter levels.[34]"

Yes, this was proffered on the juxtaposition of two words in the title.

You still can't read, Meato, which I suppose is why you opted for more of the usual – which might be summarized as being so unable to keep your shіt straight that you can't identify internal contradictions – rather than addressing this.

Keith Bell
Unfortunately, I won't have time to do a proper reply until at least Monday. Narad did a good job already though. In the meantime there's some very low hanging fruit I can't help but pick.

The “respiratory cause of death” in SIDS is about the brain turning off the heart via dysregulation of cardiac vagal neurons and parasympathetic activity to the heart. It’s not about respiratory acidosis.

I see your references aren't the only things you misrepresent. Remember how I kept harping on CO2 only being relevant because it is an indicator of respiratory failure and primary respiratory driver? Apparently not. Respiratory failure doesn't kill because of the acidosis, it's because of a lack of oxygen supply to the heart and brain. I never argued otherwise.

http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/100/5/483.full

Once again you bring up this study about CAD and serotonin. I can't imagine why except that earlier you used the words "cardiac" and "serotonin" together and this study also contains both those words. Atherosclerosis is essentially a non-issue for infants (there may be some rare congenital issues that cause it but I am unaware of any). Also, it has nothing to do with your "argument". The fact that you have brought this study up not once but twice shows a level of ignorance that is absolutely astonishing. That alone should be enough to discredit you entirely among any group of reasonable people.

This dynamic was illustrated in the news a couple days ago:
“researchers induced cardiac arrest in rats by having them breathe carbon dioxide”

Didn't we already talk about how it's generally good practice to link to Pubmed not articles? Asphyxia-activated corticocardiac signaling accelerates onset of cardiac arrest. First sentence:

The mechanism by which the healthy heart and brain die rapidly in the absence of oxygen is not well understood.

Ok, I get it now. You didn't link there because it actually doesn't do anything to further your argument. Just the title and first sentence make it abundantly clear that both the cause of death and what is being studied is lack of oxygen, not hypercarbia.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 11 Apr 2015 #permalink

I'm siding with environmental reasons re: ASIC1a as Dravet Syndrome accounts for only 2.5% of seizures post vaccination:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065758

Narad, if you're female, I'm quite interested. Denice, you're invited to join us twice weekly, of course. I'll learn more about ASIC1a, muchas gracias, not that I haven't seen it before, but it definitely deserves more attention.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 11 Apr 2015 #permalink

Keith Bell,

I’m siding with environmental reasons re: ASIC1a as Dravet Syndrome accounts for only 2.5% of seizures post vaccination:

I think you have misunderstood yet another paper. Vaccination may lead to a fever that may trigger febrile seizures in some children, just as a fever from any cause may do. Since vaccinations dramatically reduce the incidence of fevers, by preventing diseases like measles, mumps and rubella, they also reduce the incidence of febrile seizures. Vaccination does not cause Dravet Syndrome or any other seizure disorder, as the paper you cited makes very clear. Dravet Syndrome makes febrile seizures more likely, including seizures after vaccination, so parents may wrongly attribute continuing seizures to vaccination instead of to Dravet Sydrome.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 11 Apr 2015 #permalink

KB: That's pure b.s., food-grade fertilizer. Placentas, once they are expelled, are waste. Animals only eat them to hide the existence of offspring- the best thing a human can do with a placenta is bury it in the garden. And pro-biotics are a marketing gimmick.

You still haven't answered my question- why aren't we seeing waves of autistic children dying from sepsis in their first year from their 'leaky gut?"

Also, stop being a creep.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 11 Apr 2015 #permalink

I’m siding with environmental reasons re: ASIC1a as Dravet Syndrome accounts for only 2.5% of seizures post vaccination

That non sequitur/word salad would be a FAIL, Meato. The effect that you're senselessly waving around has nothing to do with 5-HT. This is not surprising given that its receptors are slow, but there's a reason you just aimlessly refer to "the serotonergic system" and random "deficiencies" and inexplicably toss out papers about point mutations in a coronavirus: you're pig-ignorant about "the system."

You have failed to advance anything even resembling a coherent remark. WTF is a "CO₂ deficiency" even supposed to mean in this context? Intra-/extracellular acidification is a result of sustained neuronal activity; this does not imply that some sort of mysterious, chronic, gut-related neural hypocapnia is the wellspring of epileptogenesis.

Placentas, once they are expelled, are waste. Animals only eat them to hide the existence of offspring…

Well, there might be other reasons.

See http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/686/is-there-really-such-a-thi…

The rationale for placenta eating, apart from the fact that it doesn't entail snuffing animals, is that since it nurtures the child during pregnancy it must contain all sorts of valuable nutrients. My medical informant knows of no research supporting this view, but it's not implausible. Mama cats and dogs eat their placentas, and some say that a chemical in the stuff stimulates contractions of the uterus. Luckily for humans, breastfeeding and the drug Pitocin do the same thing. Parvati says some American Indian tribes had placenta rituals, although none of them apparently went so far as to eat the stuff. Leave it to the white man to get ridiculous about it.

There may be dozens of reasons animals eat the placenta, or no reason at all other than the animal mother looking at the placenta and thinking, 'hey, free protein'.

And from the same page, for your entertainment...

A friend has sent me recipes from the summer 1983 issue of Mothering magazine for the following mouth-watering dishes: placenta cocktail (1/4 raw placenta, 8 ounces of V-8 juice, 2 ice cubes, 1/2 carrot, blend for 10 seconds at high speed), placenta lasagna, placenta spaghetti sauce, placenta stew, and placenta pizza. The last one will definitely stop conversation at your next Super Bowl party...

KB: I don't think you read that link before you posted it. Even the most rudimentary reading indicates the writer is satirizing the placenta fad. So, that's not actually an argument in favor of placenta eating- if anything, it supports my theory. Dogs and cats have also been known to eat their own vomit, among other things.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 11 Apr 2015 #permalink

capnkrunch, looking forward to your feedback regarding this paper I linked in #602:
"5HT1A Receptors Inhibit Glutamate Inputs to Cardiac Vagal Neurons Post-Hypoxia/Hypercapnia"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3215848/

Remember, 95% of the body's serotonin is intestinal and brain serotonin also relies on tryptophan of gut origin. I maintain vaccine injury including SIDS is a matter of microbial predisposition. First the gut, then the brain includes autoimmunity . . . what a shame the excruciating problem Infantile Spasm is treated from the neck up.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 11 Apr 2015 #permalink

Dude, I hope you didn't pay for that education. Serotonin is a neurotransmitter- neuro as in, it is part of the brain. There is no serotonin in the gut. There's nothing in the gut but cilia and whatever food particles are trucking along in the system- I learned that before I graduated middle school. Tryptophan is only found in the gut after a person eats, say, turkey or some other tryptophan-bearing food. You seem to believe it's native to the gut.
I'd like to point out that this is stuff I learned before graduating middle school. I'm not sure how you think the human body works, but what you think seems to have little relation to, you know, Earth. Have you ever actually taken an anatomy class? Heck, any sort of science class at all?

I'm not sure what you mean by "infantile spasm." There are a lot of things that could be covered by that. Epilepsy is treated from the neck up because it's a neurological problem. It's also fairly rare in infants.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 11 Apr 2015 #permalink

PgP #617,
There is an interesting discussion on seratonin at a particularly di-versed university:

Approximately 90% of the human body's total serotonin is located in the enterochromaffin cells in the GI tract, where it is used to regulate intestinal movements.

Consuming purified tryptophan increases brain serotonin whereas eating foods containing tryptophan does not. This is because the transport system which brings tryptophan across the blood-brain barrier is also selective for the other amino acids contained in protein sources. High plasma levels of other large neutral amino acids compete for transport and prevent the elevated plasma tryptophan from increasing serotonin synthesis.

In humans, defective signaling of serotonin in the brain may be the root cause of sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS).

Depletion of serotonin is common between disorders such as obsessive-compulsive disorder, depression, and anxiety. However, Dr. Marazziti and his researchers at the University of Pisa in Italy found that depletion of serotonin also occurs in people who have recently fallen in love. This leads to the obsessive component associated with early stages of love.

Despite the blood-brain barrier, the loss of serotonin production in the brain is partially compensated by intestinal serotonin.

The gastrointestinal parasite Entamoeba histolytica secretes serotonin, causing a sustained secretory diarrhea in some patients. Patients infected with E. histolytica have been found to have highly elevated serum serotonin levels, which returned to normal following resolution of the infection. E. histolytica also responds to the presence of serotonin by becoming more virulent. This means serotonin secretion not only serves to increase the spread of enteamoebas by giving the host diarrhea but also serves to coordinate their behaviour according to their population density, a phenomenon known as quorum sensing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin
=============================

Concerning 'SIDS'; I hypothesize it is the dysfunction of the reflex to need to breath, whatever the mechanism.

I take it that there is a 'state switch' akin to differing voltage levels in a computer corresponding to 'off' or 'on' whereby there is some point between alkalosis/acidosis, (hyper/hypo) (oxia/capinia). Like with an electronic circuit, I propose that this 'reference value' may subtly *drift* until the response now lays outside some viable value or some feedback or component derated -- A skater oscillating through an imperfect 'half-pipe' is unlikely to spontaneously return, should he drift too far outside the pipe.

under normal circumstances the breathing rate dictated by the body alone already leads to 98-99% oxygen saturation of the arterial blood and the effect of over-breathing on the oxygen intake is minor. What is really happening differs from divers' understanding; these divers are extending their dive by closing down the body's natural breathing mechanism, not by increasing oxygen load. The mechanism is as follows:

The primary urge to breathe is triggered by rising carbon dioxide (CO2) levels in the bloodstream. CO2 builds up in the bloodstream when O2 is metabolized and it needs to be expelled as a waste product. The body detects CO2 levels very accurately and relies on this to control breathing. Hyperventilation artificially depletes this (CO2) causing a low blood carbon dioxide condition called hypocapnia. Hypocapnia reduces the reflexive respiratory drive, allows the delay of breathing and leaves the diver susceptible to loss of consciousness from hypoxia. For most healthy people the first sign of low O2 is a greyout or unconsciousness: there is no bodily sensation that warns a diver of an impending blackout.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shallow_water_blackout

It does not seem to be a simple matter of just hypoxia -- freedive samba sufferers often have total saturation above 30-50% with greater concentrations in the brain.

CPR recommendations are noteworthy, I think. We used to be taught 1-2-3-4-5-breath! Now it is 30:1 15:1 or none:

As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust", which is exactly 100 beats-per-minute and contains a memorable repeating drum pattern. For those with non cardiac arrest and people less than 20 years of age, standard CPR is superior to compression-only CPR.

The brain may sustain damage after blood flow has been stopped for about four minutes and irreversible damage after about seven minutes. Typically if blood flow ceases for one to two hours, then body cells die. Therefore, in general CPR is effective only if performed within seven minutes of the stoppage of blood flow.

WhackyWeedia/wiki/Cardiopulmonary_resuscitation#Compression_only

^^ I take it that in most cardiac arrest situations there is still ample oxygen in the blood as well as some stimulating reflex from increasing CO2.
===========

Anything that is 70% water will not spontaneously combust.

Johnny #64, yet a body is able to combust itself to ash -- Usually being blown with only oxygen after ignition.

There is plenty of energy stored in sugars, proteins, fats to support the total vaporization of the remaining 50 kg of water -- some reactions are fed by water vapor such as the combustion of iron.

Stay out of those death beams or microbiome imbalances that liberate all the elemental calcium, phosporus, magnesium, and sodium at once into serum liquid contact.

A typical 70 kg adult human has about 170 kJ of energy in the form of glucose circulating in the blood, about 2600 kJ of energy stored in the muscles and liver as glycogen (a polymeric form of glucose), about 100,000 kJ stored in the form of protein (primarily muscle tissue), and almost 500,000 kJ in the form of fats

http://2012books.lardbucket.org/books/principles-of-general-chemistry-v…

Now, that adds up to 602,770 kJ.

(70 Kg)X.7 yeilds 49 Kg water.

Q==mXcXdeltaT

(49 Kg)X(4.2 kJ/kg)X(100-37) or 12,965 kJ gets us to boiling.

Q=(mass)X(heat of vaporization)
(49 Kg)X(2260 kJ/Kg) == 110,740 kJ.

That leaves 479,065 kJ to contribute to brilliance.

That leaves 479,065 kJ to contribute to brilliance.

In practice, however, running a crematorium requires lots of fuel.
What puzzles me about "spontaneous combustion" is that's only reported for humans. With all the lifestock in the world, you'd expect to hear reports of spontaneous bovine combustion, or spontaneous ovine combustion, but no.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 12 Apr 2015 #permalink

running a crematorium requires lots of fuel.

Don't they usually first need to burn through the relatively stable, decorative $2000 coffin, herr doktor bimler #620.

Besides, they're still probably infused with formaldehyde so there is something left to display during the protracted pity party. -- Perhaps, this may be supplanted with the sweet-smelling nitromethane and crepe-paper coffins for future *green* cremation efficacy?

Or seratonin superstimulation might be induced into the soon-to-be succumbed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edQNjJZFdLU

Johnny #64, yet a body is able to combust itself to ash — Usually being blown with only oxygen after ignition.

I am not saying you can't burn up a body. I was able to fit mom and dad in a little hole in a wall, and carry them, one under each arm, from the car up to said wall. They didn't take up a lot of room in the state they were in at the time, nor did they weigh a lot.

If you think a living thing will catch fire without an external source of energy, you're darn stupid. If you think that microbes in your gut can build a fire and let it get out of control, you as stupid as Mr. Bell.

I've built a fire or two in my life, and even wet wood isn't easy to burn. Building a fire out of people, at about 70% water, would be even harder.

Tim: You are an unreliable resource, and that page was heavily edited 2 days ago. Serotonin doesn't exist in the gut, regardless of whatever fly-by-night organization says.

Frankly, your understanding of how things work is about as poor as Phillip's.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 12 Apr 2015 #permalink

Tim may be unreliable.

However that doesn't mean the serotonin found in the enteric nervous system and other cells needed to regulate and coordinate digestion is a figment of his and other's collective imaginations.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3272651/#B5

From the July 2001 Discover Magazine (which tends to be written for lay people but is usually not completely unreliable has this bit of serotonin history.

"Serotonin, also known as 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT), was first isolated in 1933, when it was discovered in the gut and called enteramine. In 1947 it was found in blood platelets, and the molecule earned its current name, serotonin, when it also proved to constrict blood vessels. Soon after, serotonin was identified in the brain. But its role was unknown until some drug tests in the 1950s drew unexpected results. Researchers found that three drugs--isoniazid and iproniazid, both antituberculars, and imipramine, an antihistamine--improved the moods of test subjects"

Now the web of whatever woven from this factoid....well just because you start with one fact and word associate your way to whatever your bugaboo is may not resemble reality.

FWIW most of the drug development for functional GI disorders for the last couple of decades has focused on serotonin receptors in the gut. Which one and how you effect it will cause things to either speed up or slow down.

This is also why it seems so many antidepressants have GI side effects. The drugs don't know they are supposed to effect the receptors on your mood nerves and leave the rest alone.

Kaymarie: Information from an unreliable source is unreliable in and of itself. For instance, I still have trouble believing oxytocin exists because I first heard of it from people lamenting hook-up culture. If people like Tim and the other Johnny say serotonin is in the gut, even Discover Magazine won't make me believe in it.

For what it's worth, I've been on two anti-depressants, three if you count imapramine, which never did anything. The only effect I noticed was a bit of weight gain with Paxil. It's possible I don't have any serotonin at all.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 12 Apr 2015 #permalink

Don’t they usually first need to burn through the relatively stable, decorative $2000 coffin, herr doktor bimler #620.

A coffin of dry, thoroughly-varnished wood is not the energy-intensive part of crematory activities. Wooden coffin or trendy low-impact cardboard... the burn still consumes 30-odd cubic metres of natural gas. Or there is the Indian funeral-pyre tradition of making a few half-arsed attempts to burn the body before the wood runs out, and then throwing the calcined corpse down the ghat into the river.

Fire is not an efficient way of disposing of bodies -- to be clear, I am *not* speaking from experience! -- though it makes the job of forensic pathologists even more unpleasant than it would otherwise be.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 12 Apr 2015 #permalink

Don’t they usually first need to burn through the relatively stable, decorative $2000 coffin, herr doktor bimler #620.

There is a point to be made, I suppose, about the general ghastliness of the funeral home industry. My dad was cremated, but even so, I remember conversations about the funeral home trying to get as much money out of my poor widowed mother as they could. There was an actual coffin involved, I believe, though I never saw it, since I didn't want to. It certainly wasn't an open-casket funeral, for reasons related to the manner of my father's death, and I don't think the coffin was even on display at all. A cardboard box would have been perfectly sufficient, and more within my family's income range.

@Keith: Neither of which explains why so main American Indians died of measles. Yes, I'm going to keep bring that up until you properly address it.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 13 Apr 2015 #permalink

@PGP which is why I also inclued a pubmed resource but gave you something that was the backstory.

If you really need for serotonin to only exist in your brain but it really isn't a science-based opinion to deny it.

Now if you really need a Gish Gallop of pubmed sources I can do that, but I don't know that anything will change your mind no matter how many Glaxo and Novartis scientists believed in it enough to get FDA approved drugs developed from what is obviously mass hysteria and delusion.

I get it that it hurts when the crazies find one thing that actually has some basis in reality but the best pseudoscience always hangs off of some bit of fact or other. Part of how you sell the rest of the nonsense.

But believe what you will. Your gut is the one gut in all the world that doesn't have an enteric nervous system and every nerve below your neck somehow functions without the use of neurotransmitters. :-)

For instance, I still have trouble believing oxytocin exists because I first heard of it from people lamenting hook-up culture.

Well, it is probably unethical to rub it on your bo's deodorant stick. Still, I'll bet the word 'petocin' slides out your lips like oversalivated lollypop squirt when bestowing birthin' advice upon acutely rotund acquaintances.

Yep
http://www.rxlist.com/pitocin-drug.htm

Alphas SO1EP5, "Never Let Me go"

Jessica Elkhart (Isabella Hofmann)- An Alpha with the ability to induce oxytocin addiction via touch. The recipients of her touch feel loved by Jessica and though not mind-controlled exactly, will feel compelled to do whatever Jessica wants. If Jessica intentionally breaks off her 'love' by hurting the person (emotionally) the affected individual's brain, as a result of heightened stress, starts rapidly mass-producing cortisone in such a large quantity that it leads to cellular breakdown and eventual death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Alphas_characters#List_of_other_kn…

JP
I know someone who recently arranged a cremation and was told by the undertakers that a coffin was required - sort of implying regulatory requirement. There was no such regulation, but many undertakers require a box with handles. The undertakers did not try to sell an expensive coffin, but I believe it was still about $400. Given how many people are cremated, it strikes me as absurd that the undertakers and incinerators aren't properly equipped to handle bodies in cardboard boxes or even plastic bags or paper shrouds, especially where the cremation is done on the same premises that accepted the body originally. My conclusion is that it would be against their financial interests.

As far as energy consumption for cremation of the average adult, I doubt if it is much beyond rounding error for the sum energy consumed by the person during their lifetime.

doug - i found the following at the National Funeral Directors Association web site in the creamation FAQs: http://nfda.org/planning-a-funeral/cremation/160.html#individual

Is a casket required?
No. For sanitary reasons, ease of placement and dignity, many crematories require that the deceased be cremated in a combustible, leak proof, rigid, covered container. This does not need to be a casket as such. What is required is an enclosed, rigid, container made of wood or other combustible material to allow for the dignified handling of human remains. The type of casket or container selected is really a personal decision. Caskets and containers are available in a wide variety of materials ranging from simple cardboard containers to beautifully handcrafted oak, maple or mahogany caskets.

I presume it's considered bad form to put one's loved ones in a paper bag and haul lit around like a bag of dog chow, so can understand the desire for a rigid container with handles.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 13 Apr 2015 #permalink

Kaymarie: "But believe what you will. Your gut is the one gut in all the world that doesn’t have an enteric nervous system and every nerve below your neck somehow functions without the use of neurotransmitters."

I know neurotransmitters exist, I just don't think serotonin exists in my system. I suspect that sometime soon we're going to find out this whole gut-brain thing was a giant hoax.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 13 Apr 2015 #permalink

capnkrunch, looking forward to your feedback regarding this paper I linked in #602:
“5HT1A Receptors Inhibit Glutamate Inputs to Cardiac Vagal Neurons Post-Hypoxia/Hypercapnia”

Recall:

Serotonin imbalance of gut origin leads to glutamate excitotoxicity which in the prone sleeping position leads to SIDS when CO2 stimulates the serotonergic system.

Except that Meatotomy also is "more concerned about CO2 deficiency."* Whatever.

"This study demonstrates that under control and H/H conditions, 5HT1A receptors do not alter excitatory neurotransmission to CVNs. However, during recovery from H/H an endogenous serotonergic pathway, acting via 5HT1A receptors and likely via a presynaptic mechanism of action, is recruited to inhibit glutamatergic neurotransmission to CVNs."

In other words, 5-HT via 5-HT3** (and ATP via P2X) is the desired excitatory signaler for the post-H/H bradycardic correction, but glutamate – which is a normal participant anyway – remains a fallback option.

The process is modulated by 5-HT1A binding (ignore the gene variants, which are tossed under the bus anyway; I figured Meato might need a picture, even if he's going to use it as free-association fodder).

So:

1. Has no causal role whatever for excitotoxicity.
2. Points, as usual (e.g., PMID 20124538, 19247214), to a problem with serotonergic functionthat leads to an exaggerated response to H/H episodes. This is structural (and hence developmental) in nature.
3. As a corollary, has nothing to do with a global brainstem "deficiency" of 5-HT, much less an imaginary "gut origin" one.

Well played, as usual. I can't wait to find out how the gut flora control the inner ear connection (PMID 24021919).

* No, epilepsy does not get you off the hook.
** I actually edited it out from #611: figure out the difference between ligand-gated and G-protein coupled, Meato.

"Bifidobacteria are known to raise tryptophan, precursor of brain serotonin production"

Proof that if Lubitz's doctors had injected bifidobacteria into his brain, he never would have crashed that Germanwings plane.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 13 Apr 2015 #permalink

OK, whatever, if you are going to remove whole body systems from existence every time one wacko finds one small part of it to base some wacky on you are going to be missing a lot of body parts/systems/chemicals in a hurry.

If you can figure out how you have the only gut in the world that works perfectly without all the regulatory stuff the rest of us need you can probably make a fortune. :-)

Just deciding things do not exist because a wacko uses the word once seems like a silly way to determine what to believe in.

Do you decide all computer chips do not exist because some wacko thinks the government implants them in people and no evidence in all the world will ever prove that thing in your computer is a chip or that it has anything to do with being able to surf the web?

I mean I knew you seem to think the world only exists as you believe when it comes to what one group of people are like, I really didn't think that extended all the way down to something science has found actually exists, even in guinea pig guts. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21226885

Perhaps it would have mediated the response to his sporadic access to SSRIs (aka mass-murder suicide pills), Dangerous Bacon #638.

I'm beginning to think that PGP is JP playing mind games and laughing.

I know neurotransmitters exist, I just don’t think serotonin exists in my system.

There is still hope, PgP #635

Serotonin-deficient mutants respond to fluoxetine, but confoundingly the putative worm homolog of the human serotonin reuptake transporter hSERT – the conventional protein target of SSRIs – is still present. As luck would have it, two years later Bob Horvitz’s lab independently replicated the general observation of serotonin-independent activity of fluoxetine in worms

http://www.ethanperlstein.com/do-worms-get-depressed/

I’ve built a fire or two in my life, and even wet wood isn’t easy to burn.

When wood is wet, build a fire and dry it out, Johnny #623 -- you need to be able to access the parts of the wood that are not wet, or have elemental sodium, magnesium, or lithium (stored in oil vials or big chunks which are initially coated with a protective oxide layer) on hand:

31 And Elijah took twelve stones...***

32 And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.

33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid him on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood.

34 And he said, Do it the second time. And they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time. And they did it the third time.

35 And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water.

36***

37***

38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

1 Kings 18:31-38

*** "Skip abit, brother."

Also, Bifidobacteria are known to raise tryptophan, precursor of brain serotonin production:
h[]tp://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956(08)00074-5/abst…

You are just painfully stupid, Meato. (I suppose this goes without saying, given that you continue to cite things that you can't be bothered to attempt to read.)

We have here an N = 12 treatment group of male Sprague-Dawley rats. The treatment produced no statistically significant difference in brain monoamines (Table 1), although there was a p < 0.05 (actual value conspicuously omitted) decrease in frontal-cortex 5-HIAA, which is pretty much meaningless overall and entirely meaningless in the context you've blundered into.

There was no effect on the forced-swim test (i.e., antidepressant), which is what the whole point was.

"[T]he present measures of tryptophan represent total tryptophan concentrations in the plasma, and do not allow a distinction to be made between the protein-bound fraction and levels of bioavailable tryptophan. In addition, as tryptophan relies on a competitive transport system to enter the brain, variations in the concentrations of competing large amino acids in the plasma may affect the transport of tryptophan from the periphery to the brain. The present study is limited by the absence of peripheral measures of these large neural amino acids that can affect central concentrations of tryptophan. Therefore, these results must be interpreted with caution.

Except by you, of course. I'm certainly not wasting any more time by getting into the mechanism for the sake of GMI's self-anointed gut microbiome expert, who nonetheless was willing to produce this catastrophe:

I’m still learning about how the gut affects brain serotonin levels and gave a brief overview, including how serotonin crosses BBB into circulation and how tryptophan of gut microbial origin crosses BBB as precursor for serotonin production in the brain.

But in your small, compartmentalized world, Narad, it’s all about the brain. I’ve got news for you: your BBB is a joke. You can’t even acknowledge role of the gut in serotonin deficiency associated with SIDS (including vaccine-induced SIDS).

If anybody can read this scoffing about "it's all about the brain" to mean anything other than that Meatotomy thought that his declared SIDS connection didn't involve the brain, I'm all ears.

^ There's a missing closing quotation mark after the boldface "caution," sorry.

No, ken, we've been over this, remember? I'm God. Orac is the most intelligent supercomputer in the galaxy. Most of the regulars are either robots, brainwashed Illuminati drones, or red dresses, though I suppose those are really almost all the same thing, aren't they?

If anybody can read this scoffing about “it’s all about the brain” to mean anything other than that Meatotomy thought that his declared SIDS connection didn’t involve the brain, I’m all ears.

You've hit upon something, Narad #642. Perhaps, it is not *in the brain* per se but rather signaling to the brain/autonomic system. I note that shallow water blackout usually has plenty of oxygen still concentrated 'in the brain'.

How would it compare to, say, going from a mild buzz to narcoleptically passing out mid-coherent-sentence with ingestion of exotic alcohol (amino acids introduced during ferment)?? Not 'walking, talking blacking out'; Stone cold out with no memory of the preceeding moments before one wakes up at his keyboard to find drewl all over his mouse.

I'm thinking the mechanism is something more along the lines of a 'vasovegal' reaction -- A reaction that invariably, even if offhandedly, involves the gut.

I’m beginning to think that PGP is JP playing mind games and laughing.

PGP is, in fact, a member of the Babylonian Brotherhood, the one who sang about the man you call Jesus: yea, that he was a Capricorn and ate organic foods. I her* I am well pleased.

*It's sort of complicated - it's only her hologram which has the appearance of a bearded human male.

@Keith Bell

capnkrunch, looking forward to your feedback regarding this paper I linked in #602:
“5HT1A Receptors Inhibit Glutamate Inputs to Cardiac Vagal Neurons Post-Hypoxia/Hypercapnia”
h[]tp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3215848/

Well, Narad nailed that. I'd also point out that CO2 chemoreceptors are centrally located. The stimulation of cardiac vagal nerves by hypercapnia occurs in the CNS, not the gut.

Remember, 95% of the body’s serotonin is intestinal...

Doesn't really matter since the serotonergic neurons in the CNS produce their own serotonin and that is the relevant pathway here.

...and brain serotonin also relies on tryptophan of gut origin.

Just like it relies on absorbtion from dietary sources for all essential amino acids. Do you ever think before you type?

It's telling that from my last post yku summarily ignored every point I made except the one that I would respond to the rest later. Is it because you don't have a leg to stand on or is it that you have trouble reading past the first sentence of anything, not just academic papers? I'm still very much interested in why you think a study on CAD is relevant to a discussion on the etiology of SIDS. Is it because of this?

Conclusions—The study suggests that serotonin is associated with coronary artery disease and occurrence of cardiac events, particularly in younger age groups. [emphasis added]

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 13 Apr 2015 #permalink

PGP,

For instance, I still have trouble believing oxytocin exists because I first heard of it from people lamenting hook-up culture. If people like Tim and the other Johnny say serotonin is in the gut, even Discover Magazine won’t make me believe in it.

You remind me of people who say, "don't tell me what to do, I'll just do the opposite", which makes them ridiculously easy to manipulate, something they were presumably trying to avoid in the first place. IMO it's a better strategy to assess any claim based on evidence, not by jumping to conclusions based on an emotional reaction. That way you might avoid making a twit of yourself by uttering such demonstrably untrue statements.

Oxytocin does undoubtedly exist - it's used to induce labor - though some of its claimed effects on human emotions are probably overstated. Most serotonin is indeed in the gut, and if you had no serotonin in your body you would very probably be dead, given the range of essential functions it performs. Also, the microbiome is undoubtedly of great importance and we have a lot to learn; the fact that Keith seems to have picked up this particular ball and disappeared over the horizon with it does not change that.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 13 Apr 2015 #permalink

"In addition, as tryptophan relies on a competitive transport system to enter the brain"

That's an interesting dynamic regulated by insulin allowing tryptophan of gut origin to cross BBB. So, we're back to sugar. Seems E. coli also have a hand in tryptophan level. Microbial degradation and synthesis of tryptophan in microbial overgrowth/imbalance makes this a sticky subject:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4202342/

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 13 Apr 2015 #permalink

capnkrunch:

Just like it relies on absorbtion from dietary sources for all essential amino acids. Do you ever think before you type?

You mean slathering ourselves in food to allow it to be absorbed transdermally doesn't work?

I wonder sometimes how my children survived that six-to-eight month period when babies are learning how to work this whole "food" business. :-P

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 13 Apr 2015 #permalink

Calli Arcale@655
I find better results by filtering it through my clothes first. Particularly white ones. The stains are how you know the toxins were filtered out.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 13 Apr 2015 #permalink

Also, Bifidobacteria are known to raise tryptophan, precursor of brain serotonin production:

We have here an N = 12 treatment group of male Sprague-Dawley rats.

Rats have that whole coprophagy thing to ensure that the products of gut bacteria can go through a second time and be absorbed in the small intestine. It requires very dedicated subjects to replicate this in humans.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 13 Apr 2015 #permalink

“In addition, as tryptophan relies on a competitive transport system to enter the brain”

That’s an interesting dynamic regulated by insulin allowing tryptophan of gut origin to cross BBB. So, we’re back to sugar.

Your irredeemably brain-dead desperation is noted. LNAA transport is not "regulated by insulin."

The statement itself is shockingly stupid on its face, and I'm sure the f*ck not going to be the one to try to salvage meaning from it for you.

^ Although I will note that all tryptophan is "of gut origin," making this filip a further indictment. It's not the "gut origin" that you imagine, but that's scarcely relevant at this point.

Seems E. coli also have a hand in tryptophan level.

Any living organism will either use or produce (or both, depending on circumstances) tryptophan and about any other aminoacid in existence.
So do probiotics bacteria. I wouldn't be surprised if your beloved Bifidobacterium consumes tryptophan present in guts. And I know E. coli does produce tryptophan if there isn't enough for its needs.

With declarations that sweeping, you cannot go wrong. What's your point?

In other news, water is wet, sun rises East, and bears may or may not sh!t in the wood*.

* There aren't many people who complain about walking in the wood and setting foot on bear stuff. Um, maybe because the ones who did also met the bear itself.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 13 Apr 2015 #permalink

Most serotonin is indeed in the gut, and if you had no serotonin in your body you would very probably be dead, given the range of essential functions it performs.

I sort of assumed that when PGP made the comment about "not having any serotonin at all," it was sort of dark humor or whistling in the dark vis-a-vis antidepressants not being helpful. I guess the oxytocin statement has made me reconsider that assessment. Serotonin is undoubtedly real, although I suppose it is a little bit "spooky" in a sense that we don't know exactly how antidepressants work, or why different antidepressants do or don't work for different people. It doesn't make serotonin, or the fact that SSRIs affect serotonin levels "not a real thing" though.

There aren’t many people who complain about walking in the wood and setting foot on bear stuff. Um, maybe because the ones who did also met the bear itself.

Either that, or they never learned to identify scat. It was fairly plentiful in my own native woods, especially in late summer/early fall, when the pears and so on were ripe.

@ JP

Either that, or they never learned to identify scat.

I have to admit the latter would be a better hypothesis :-)

I was messing around with a joke I read a long time ago on a British webcomic, "Extermlnatus Now" (described as Sonic meets W40K, slightly NSFW due to crude language and innuendo).

By Helianthus (not verified) on 13 Apr 2015 #permalink

Either that, or they never learned to identify scat. It was fairly plentiful in my own native woods, especially in late summer/early fall, when the pears and so on were ripe.

My knowledge of the lexicon of venery comes mainly from T.H. White, but IIRC if bears are the source then the correct term is 'lesses'.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 13 Apr 2015 #permalink

I’ve been on two anti-depressants, three if you count imapramine, which never did anything. The only effect I noticed was a bit of weight gain with Paxil.

PgP #626, before there were SSRIs there was tryptophan 5-hydroxytryptophan. 5-htp is the precursor to seratonin (thus melatonin and dopamine(??) ) so instead of blocking reuptake you're making more of it.

I found it great stuff. However, I became afraid of it as per the will of Big Pharma. I stopped taking it because of some disturbing physiological changes (intermittent missing pulse, for one thing) though I don't know it was the cause. I do wish the brains here could give me an honest assessment of the amino acid.

In the spirit of it being relegated to 'woo':

Curiously, banning tryptophan - a safe, inexpensive, effective, and natural precursor to serotonin - opened the door for Prozac and its imitators which have enjoyed huge financial success in the 1990s as synthetic mood elevators, despite their considerable side effects.

... Another report compared the results of three studies involving 5-HTP and imipramine** (another standard antidepressant). All three trials showed no difference in the effect of the two substances. Once again, 5-HTP performed as well as the conventional drug and 5-HTP did not produce the side effects of dry mouth and tremors typically caused by imipramine.

http://lightparty.com/Health/5-HTP.html

There are always caveats. Much 5-HTP on the market comes bundled with a whopping dose of vitamin B6 as it is used in the conversion to seratonin. The problem with this is that the 5-HTP needs to be past the BBB before being converted. Otherwise, you're left with increased serum seratonin and melatonin which can cut both ways -- Excess is stored in red blood cells and 'drawn' to inflammation. This can be good for a bad liver. This can be bad for inflammation in the vascular system.

Addition of small amounts of 5-hydroxytryptamine to whole blood altered the tendency of the platelets, leucocytes, and red blood cells of dogs, cats, and rabbits to aggregate. The magnitude of this response to 5-hydroxy-tryptamine was dose dependent and biphasic.

http://circres.ahajournals.org/content/13/5/392

Elevated serum serotonin is associated with carcinoid heart disease, the hallmark of which is valvular thickening. Yet, the mechanistic role of serotonin in carcinoid heart disease is poorly understood. We postulated that serotonin has a direct mitogenic effect on cardiac valvular subendocardial cells, and that this effect is mediated by serotonin receptors.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11767194

In retrospect, it is probably not such a good idea to take the B6 concurrent with the 5-HTP; I was probably really messing up by taking it with P-5-P as what I believe were mild 'seratonin storms' were only a few chuncks of cheeze (tyrosine) away.
=========================

*5-htp imipramine* into PubMed yeilds 155 results. Here, we find the sickest one:

The regeneration of explants prepared from goldfish retinas with a prior crush of the optic nerve is...

In the present work we evaluated the effect of serotonin and some serotonergic agonists on the neuritic outgrowth from goldfish retinal explants. Serotonin, its precursor, 5-hydroxytryptophan, and the 5HT1A receptor agonists, 8-hydroxy-2-(di-n-propylamino)tetralin and buspirone, inhibited the outgrowth. The blockers of serotonin uptake, imipramine and citalopram, were also inhibitors of neurite sprouting.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7523693

Raise your hands if you've never ever crushed a fisheye.

For "an honest assessment of the amino acid", nothing beats the online reviewer of a an antivax book (authored by No-Clue Habakus).

The reviewer (who styles herself as a pediatric nurse) informed her audience on Amazon that Evil Pharma places such horrific chemicals as amino acids, dextrose and mineral salts in vaccines. Imagine - injecting _amino acids_ into your fragile infant!!!

I had to inform her and her readers that these toxic chemicals can also be found in infant formulas.

Maybe they will contact the Food Babe to start an anti-amino acid campaign.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

@ Dangerous Bacon

Evil Pharma places such horrific chemicals as amino acids, dextrose and mineral salts in vaccines

Oh the Horror!
It's so disgusting. Let me go juicing a few veggies to put myself together. I have better hurry, it's almost time for my vit C IV session.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

Believe it or not, this terrifying agenda has already infiltrated health food stores: they sell ((shudder)) branch chain amino acids in plastic containers.

All the more reason to grow whatever you eat yourself ( see Mike Adams' new home farm system at Natural News)

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

@hdb:

Perhaps, although The Straight Dope indicates that "lesses" is boar droppings, not bear droppings - they're only one letter off, after all.

Scat, of course, is the more polite of the general terms, sh*t being probably my go-to. Although, oddly enough, one never really speaks of "deer sh*t" or "rabbit sh*t" - perhaps they are too cute.

(I recommend the link above.)

^ OOPS I missed the last bit - "lesses" can come from bears also.

#659: Why do you think the world is addicted to sugar and carbs? It's a feel-good diet, a temporary fix, raising insulin to remove competing amino acids allowing tryptophan into the brain to raise brain serotonin. This should be common knowledge:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/5120086
"Insulin, in turn, decreases plasma levels of large neutral amino acids that would ordinarily compete with tryptophan for transport across the blood-brain barrier. Resulting brain changes in serotonin provide a plausible mechanism whereby diet could affect behaviour. "
http://nah.sagepub.com/content/3/1-2/55.abstract

But poor, pitiful, bigoted Roald Dahl didn't factor flora shift in his candy-assed books. He didn't factor how viruses bind to sugar in the cell wall of microbes to exacerbate viral infectivity. Was he feeding sugar to his poor daughter on her deathbed? Probably, since he was obsessed with sugar and medicine.

Speaking of bigoted, what you think is important as emotional stress also leads to flora shift.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

"But poor, pitiful, bigoted Roald Dahl didn’t factor flora shift in his candy-assed books."

You are both an idiot and a heartless bigoted jerk.

So where is the verifiable documentation dated before 1990 showing autism went up in the 1970s and 1980s coincident to the use of the MMR vaccine in the USA?

HDB: With all the lifestock in the world, you’d expect to hear reports of spontaneous bovine combustion, or spontaneous ovine combustion, but no.

Actually, given that cows produce a ton of methane, you'd think they'd be more likely to combust than humans.

JP: The serotonin thing was a joke. I'm in the middle of a long depressive episode, and woomongering about serotonin makes me snappish. I still don't think there's any there to the gut-brain thing and I doubt oxytocin has any effect on non-pregnant women, besides use as a shaming tactic to get them addicted to romance.

Ken: See: unreliable sources. KB's one of them, therefore any of his links are trash.

KB: WTF is your problem with Roald Dahl? Are you going to say he supported child abuse because he also created Miss Trunchbull? Have you ever actually read any of his books? Or do you just use him to keep banging on about how much you hate sugar?

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

@ K Bell

I could grant you some true in the Insulin/free sugar part of your last post.

About carbohydrates, one of the point of going for starchy veggies is precisely to avoid insulin spikes, as long carbohydrates will need time to be digested and assimilated. (although that's no excuse to go on a diet of French fries - but here, it's more about all the oil and salt coming with them)
So I would respectfully disagree on putting them in the same boat.

But now:

He didn’t factor how viruses bind to sugar in the cell wall of microbes to exacerbate viral infectivity.

You know, bacteria are not Hermit crabs. They don't build a wall of sugar because we are eating sugar. The bacteria wall is more akin to an insect exoskeleton, at least in function: to protect from the outside.

So, sugar or no sugar in your diet, your bacteria are going to have a wall of sugar.

Actually, the shell of arthropods (insects, shrimps...), the cell wall of plants and of mushrooms? All made of carbohydrates. Mostly indigestible by humans, but sugar polymers nonetheless.

Sugar everywhere. There is no escape.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

SugarBind provides information on known carbohydrate sequences to which pathogenic organisms (bacteria, toxins and viruses) specifically adhere.
www.sugarbind.expasy.org

have to paste?
sugarbind.expasy.org

@PGP:

The serotonin thing was a joke. I’m in the middle of a long depressive episode, and woomongering about serotonin makes me snappish.

I kinda figured. Good luck trying to deal. If SSRIs aren't helping, there are other medications out there that might help, or there's counseling, etc. Seriously, check out your insurance information and see what's covered. You can't be kicked off your insurance for using it for what it covers.

There are also other various ways of sort of shaking things up or getting out of a rut; I ought not recommend some of them here, due to their illegality. But just doing something different can sometimes help, I find; going on a trip, changing your routine, stuff like that. And it might be worth taking a look at your general situation and deciding if something really needs to change, like your job or living situation or whatever.

^ First paragraph should have been blockquoted.

Of course, Heli, there's even sugar found in outer space. I've never suggested dietary sugar affects the cells wall of microbes, though it may. Ocean creatures can't build their own shells these days due to ocean acidification. Dietary sugar does, however, affect the balance of microbes and feeds overgrowth of opportunists.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3448089/

Speaking of sugar imbalances, Chris, were you a gestational diabetic (GDM) by chance? Today's news:
"Association of Maternal Diabetes With Autism in Offspring"
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=2247143

GDM is a global epidemic based on flora imbalance. How is this affecting fetal brain development, i.e., Narad's point about structural development #637? And then how do vaccines affect infants born to these mothers, adding insult to injury based on poor microbial predisposition?

"Placental Source for 5-HT that Tunes Fetal Brain Development"
http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v37/n1/full/npp2011194a.html

"Probiotics for preventing gestational diabetes"
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD009951.pub2/abstr…

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

ken, good luck with ridding your body of every last glycoprotein (and the glycolipids while you are at it).

They are not abnormal body parts that only occur from excess sugar consumption; they are important bits your body needs. That is one of the reason infectious organisms use them to enter cells. Because they are bits of our body that are required and vital for our continued existence and we can't live without them. If we could just stop making them the poor little buggers would be out of luck. But since we need them to live they exploit exactly those things.

And while you are eating zero sugar and zero carbs make sure you turn off your gluconeogenesis apparatus as your body will find a way to make the sugars it requires to keep you alive by sticking those evil sugar molecules onto the proteins that require them to function and we wouldn't want to give it a work around your diet now would we.

Kay -Thou dost assume too much. I love my carbs too too much esp dark choc, flan, ice cream.

Why do you think the world is addicted to sugar and carbs? It’s a feel-good diet, a temporary fix, raising insulin to remove competing amino acids allowing tryptophan into the brain to raise brain serotonin.

Do you also need help crossing the street? Have you ever wondered why SSRIs, which produce a nearly immediate increase in intracellular 5-HT, take weeks to show any effect, which most certainly is not euphoriant?*

You don't even understand the postulated mechanism behind the 44-year-old abstract that your lone "research" ability – primitive word association – disgorged, because you're too dense to figure out how to follow it down even without having to get off your lazy ass. Instead, you make one up: insulin somehow "remove[s] competing amino acids."

The idea was that an overall reduction in the free LNAA pool would leave only the albumin-bound tryptophan, which would be dissociated by vaguely specified means. Perhaps it also "should be common knowledge" that not even Fernstrom still believes this.

You're wasting everyone's time, Bellend.

* Wrong system.

@KayMarie:

I wouldn't bother trying to discuss anything with ken. All she really does is go around posting random links that she has not read or understood, with maybe an accompanying sentence, which are tangentially related to the topic, and claiming to be "playing the devil's advocate" or "doing research" or something.

Tim:
an honest assessment of the amino acid.

The Cochrane collaboration found a lot of studies designed to pimp the benefits of tryptophan or 5-Hydroxytryptophan products, but only two studies of any value:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD003198/full

Available evidence does suggest these substances are better than placebo at alleviating depression. Further studies are needed to evaluate the efficacy and safety of 5-HTP and tryptophan before their widespread use can be recommended. ...[Health concerns]... Because alternative antidepressants exist which have been proven to be effective and safe the clinical usefulness of 5-HTP and tryptophan is limited at present.

There was at least one study they didn't include (single-blind, negative outcome)... I was a guinea-pig, it was how I met the Frau Doktorin. [/romantic story]
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yvxRXnObxjM/T3eN83CJgRI/AAAAAAAAD0s/TYN9T4quo…

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

I doubt oxytocin has any effect on non-pregnant women, besides use as a shaming tactic to get them addicted to romance.

There's plenty of research on the effect of oxytocin on both men and women, actually, mainly in terms of how it affects trust, social cohesion, etc. It does apparently affect men and women somewhat differently, but it's not a "woman's hormone" or something.

I actually don't really see how it could be used to as a "shaming tactic" to get women "addicted to romance," actually. If anything, it'd make me feel less inclined to take initial romantic feelings too seriously. Someone I know noted a decade or so ago that it's easy to have much bigger feelings for somebody than are really warranted once you have sex with them; you could say it's "just the oxytocin talking," maybe, though that'd be pretty reductive.

@ KayMarie

I concur wholeheartedly.

[Glycoproteins] are important bits your body needs

The non-glycosylated form of normally glycosylated proteins are often non-functional. There are actually a few genetic diseases due to improper glycosylation.
Heck, blood groups are due to specific chains of sugars on the outside of our red cells. And our HLA system is also based on glycoproteins (the molecules used by our immune system to distinguish us versus not-us). You don't want to mess with either of these carb chains. Our immune system may become a bit confused if half-glycosylated molecules start showing up.

If we could just stop making them the poor little buggers would be out of luck.

And this is actually a mechanism of defense, but mostly for the viruses. Change the form of the glycoproteins on the surface of the virus, and suddenly our immune system cannot recognize these proteins anymore.

Conversely, in a third of the cases of Guillain-Barré syndrome, a carbohydrate chain belonging the bacterium Campylobacter jejuni is triggering an autoimmune reaction against one of our own molecule, because they are highly similar. In this case, we are the ones out of luck...

gluconeogenesis

Oh yeah. While I would agree that eating buckets of sucrose is not healthy, going for a no-carb diet isn't solving much regarding glycoproteins or carbohydrate lattices. A ketogenic diet doesn't stop people from having about 1 g/l of sugar in blood. It certainly won't stop our bacteria and yeasts from making sugars out of fatty acids or amino-acids.

Well, that's not to say that looking at which human glycoprotein is targeted by some pathogen is useless. There could be ways to disrupt this interaction without penalizing the human protein normal function.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

PgP Sorry to hear that. I had one hell of a post-partum depression in the late 60's which was treated by a course of about 4 different medications. Luckily it abated after several months.

Given that Meato also "thinks" that Alzheimer disease is gut origin (based on nothing whatever in the paper being referenced), I might as well cross this one off the to-do list while I'm at it:

"We initially predicted that the WFD [whole-food diet] would ameliorate behavioral deficits by enhancing brain insulin signaling and reducing neuroinflammation. In fact, the results indicate that an interaction between transgene driven Aβ deposition and the WFD produced a heightened neuroinflammatory response that coincided with exacerbation of behavioral deficits."

P.S. Do not miss this: h[]tp://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/2013/12/how-to-cure-sibo-small-intestinal-bowel.html?showComment=1386349649469#c3545979288889654122

In addition to more babbling about insulin (T1D has nothing to do with the pancreas), one is informed that "the main mode of death in a nuclear holocaust is sepsis via translocation of gut microbes."

Tim:

"Curiously, banning tryptophan – a safe, inexpensive, effective, and natural precursor to serotonin – opened the door for Prozac and its imitators which have enjoyed huge financial success in the 1990s as synthetic mood elevators, despite their considerable side effects."
http://lightparty.com/Health/5-HTP.html

That article there -- a reprint from a 1999 advertorial in "Alternative Medicine" -- is a window into a distant, simpler past, when even the CAM-scammers accepted the pharmaceutical paradigm that framed depression as "serotonin deficiency syndrome".

Despite the money invested in developing SSRIs they didn't work any better than good old-fashioned non-selective tricyclics, but the investment had to be recovered anyway, so we went through the years of "Prozac Nation" SSRI-promotion -- and the idea that *everyone* should take them as a dietary supplement whether clinically depressed or not.

I can't really blame the Alt-Health grifters for trying to get a slice of the pie.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

Despite the money invested in developing SSRIs they didn’t work any better than good old-fashioned non-selective tricyclics, but the investment had to be recovered anyway, so we went through the years of “Prozac Nation” SSRI-promotion — and the idea that *everyone* should take them as a dietary supplement whether clinically depressed or not.Despite the money invested in developing SSRIs they didn’t work any better than good old-fashioned non-selective tricyclics, but the investment had to be recovered anyway, so we went through the years of “Prozac Nation” SSRI-promotion — and the idea that *everyone* should take them as a dietary supplement whether clinically depressed or not.

I thought that the main reason for preference of SSRIs over TCAs was higher tolerability.

I do remember at least the tail-end of the whole idea that Prozac and its ilk should be taken as "personality enhancers" by people without any mental health problems at all who just happened to be sort of shy or introverted or whatever. Peter Kramer's Listening to Prozac was particularly brain-dead and irritating, as I recall. Actually, it's one of the things that made me avoid any kind of psychiatric treatment for as long as I did.

I thought that the main reason for preference of SSRIs over TCAs was higher tolerability.

My recollection is that the "fewer side-effects" rationale came along later, after the initial promotional promises of"less depression" were not supported by facts.

Tricyclics worked for me although I cannot recommend taking 15 amitriptyline at a time and washing them down with a 1/3-bottle of whisky.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

Heli, there’s even sugar found in outer space.

Do tell, Meato. Hand-waving about interstellar grains isn't going to get you there.

Tricyclics worked for me although I cannot recommend taking 15 amitriptyline at a time and washing them down with a 1/3-bottle of whisky.

There's overall less caution about drinking on SSRIs than on TCAs, but I remember the first six months to a year that I was on them, I had some interesting experiences. I'd be out drinking and feel perfectly fine - after a few beers or so - and then it was like some switch would flip and I'd be suddenly, completely, embarrassingly drunk. Luckily my friends were understanding.

Wait a minute, fifteen Elavil and a 1/3-bottle of whiskey? I'm glad you made it.

TCAs don't have a terribly forgiving therapeutic window. Wasn't part of the rationale also that giving potentially suicidal patients easy access to a potentially fatal OD was a bad idea? Not that that rationale is correct, someone who's serious is going to find a way regardless.

On the other hand have seen a couple children ingest their parent's TCAs and can't help but think reducing that risk is a good thing. Children getting into SSRIs isn't nearly as dangerous.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

Evidently my heart is not prone to fibrillation.
Apparently I tried to climb a bookcase under the impression that it was a stairway to heaven or something, then slept for 24 hours.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

TCAs don’t have a terribly forgiving therapeutic window. Wasn’t part of the rationale also that giving potentially suicidal patients easy access to a potentially fatal OD was a bad idea? Not that that rationale is correct, someone who’s serious is going to find a way regardless.

I was once given scripts for a ridiculous amount of citalopram - to be fair, I was going on a trip to Russia and Poland, so I had a 90-day script, plus a couple, two or three, regular ones, since I was planning to go back to Oregon for a few weeks and would need to go to a different pharmacy, and the psychiatrist I was seeing wasn't aware of how badly I was doing at the moment, since I tend to understate things. If I'd gotten them all filled, which would probably have been tricky in practice, I'd have had enough to OD. I ended up giving them to a friend and having him give them back to me at a later date.

Speaking of sepsis and translocation of gut microbes, I've been learning today about sepsis and autoimmunity:
"Infections sometimes produce a catastrophic body-wide inflammation known as sepsis. It is thought to strike around a million people a year in the USA alone, up to half of whom die. For years, scientists thought that a bacterial toxin might cause the immune system to malfunction in this way – but sepsis is actually just an exaggeration of one of the usual immune defences against bacteria and other invaders. Instead of acting locally, the immune system accidentally responds throughout the body."
http://mosaicscience.com/story/why-do-we-have-allergies

Perhaps probiotics should be used pre-vaccination to prevent an overactive immune response including anaphylaxis.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/mnfr.201300028/abstract
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1398-9995.2010.02501.x/abs…

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

Thx, herr doktor bimler #686/#692.

I'm in a bit of a 'pickle'. I went to one of these 'order-your-own' testing labs and underwent *CMP12+8AC+CBC/D/Plt+Ua; ... Vitamin B12 and Folate; Tsh; ALT (SGPT, liver function).

Most of the values came back relatively happy (liver enzymes and whatnot)-- Some of the differential white blood cell count is probably attributed to skin irritation from HE detergent. Most. Although I eat salt like candy, my sodium and chloride was flagged low. I have been having episodes of peeing what looks like lowfat milk, off and on. My (formerly perfect) teeth have rapidly resorbed. I note that I now realize I had rhrabdomyolysis from pushing a 'people powered' mower while drinking and in the heat a few years ago (deep, thick red-brown pee that immediately fell to the bottom of the bowl -- I attributted it to some component of my wet snuff which was of the same color and specific gravity).

I have been taking the supplement levomefolic acid and .25mg of methylcobalamin but I stopped 72 hours before the test for B12. The B12 came back 1266 pg/ml and folate 18.5 ng/ml.

I see there are some paradoxical conditions (functional metabolism derated) that can cause some symptoms of deficency yet read high on the test. I also see that serum B12 elevation is not a good sign.

Simple google points out that you can't elevate your serum B12 with supplements; Oxford seems to imply a halflife of 6 days.

I have acidic saliva and my teeth dissolved to deep into the dentin (I lost 2mm, that night) during an 8-hour stint in jail.

I'm in a pickle because 'the man' has it out for me (long sob story) and the last time this happened was a threat of jailtime for the offense of 'improper lane change' in a vehicle that was not moving and that I was not occupying. I need to figure this out before telling the clown-in-a-gown, cash-register-in-a-robe to go fuck himself with one of officer Fuckme's jobdoers.

I've suspected for a few months that I have a PTH secreting tumor somewhere. Serum phosporous was normal and calcium only a little elevated; but I'm literally eating my teeth and peeing it out.

I've not yet got the MMA test or direct PTH test. I'm pretty much without futher funds.

The pathophysiology of elevated vitamin B12 in clinical practice:
http://qjmed.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/02/27/qjmed.hct051

^^ Any comments?? (obviously, the first step would be to 'retest' but the blood draw lady had all the comfort of a butch prison guard and I go vasovegal at the sound of 'next'. )

Apparently I tried to climb a bookcase under the impression that it was a stairway to heaven

Did you find that the stores were all closed? It makes me wonder.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

I know someone for whom tricyclics actually work _somewhat_ while SSRIs are fraught with difficulty and therefore rejected.
AND he's played with alcohol combos as well.

As I usually remark in cases like this:

Something is Better Than Nothing
( old family motto)

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

I forgot one other glaring issue with the "analysis" by Mr. "Serotonin Is an Amorphous Blob":

Why do you think the world is addicted to sugar and carbs? It’s a feel-good diet, a temporary fix, raising insulin to remove competing amino acids allowing tryptophan into the brain to raise brain serotonin. This should be common knowledge

Leaving aside the small issue that rats aren't people, the effect of ATD – the very existence of which in the general public has been skipped by the GIT Expert – on TRP/∑ LNAA is abolished in rats by the addition of 5% high-quality protein to the meal.

Therefore, cheese fries, Boston crème doughnuts, and allies are safely nonaddictive.

#691 Thanks so much for digging-up that June, 2013 post on Dr. Perlmutter's Facebook page. This was a time when I constantly teasing him for having a sterile construct, pre-bestseller, Grain Brain. I'd like to think I had a hand in his becoming a champion of the subject with the release of his new book this month:
"Brain Maker: The Power of Gut Microbes to Heal and Protect Your Brain–for Life"
http://www.amazon.com/Brain-Maker-Microbes-Protect-Brain%C2%96/dp/03163…

And his new peer-reviewed journal, Brain and Gut, is supposed to begin 2016.
http://www.liebertpub.com/images/cover.ihax?w=209&id=2391&g=

When will the vaccine industry finally acknowledge role of the gut in damaging the brain?

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

MO@702
I hope he's changed the road he's on. If not, there's still time in long wrong.

Denice Walter@703
My understanding was that TCAs are still the go to for otherwise refractory depression. They're safe as water compared to MOAIs.

JP@703
That's a hug everyone benefits from.

Kind of seems like clinical depression is somewhat overrepresented here. I wonder if that's really the case and if so why. Anyone on SNRIs? I take (generic) Effexor and also took Wellbutrin to quit smoking. I've been on everything up to risperidone and SSRIs didn't do much and everything else was too side effect-y (I must have a predisposition to extra pyradimidal effects because I had them pretty much whenever they were an option).

Nothing is quite as effective as good old ETOH in my experience. You guys probably know how that goes in the long run though.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

@ capncrunch:

Right.

And depression overrepresented? Perhaps. Also, people who like to write and who enjoy alcohol. Sure.
Sounds like a winning combination which has been noted in other places than RI.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

Keith Bell@708
There's been a lot of talk of how intestinal injury might cause neuro injury. Even if you could make a good case for that (which you haven't) you still are missing the more important part: how vaccines cause the initial gut injury. Ideally you'd be able to cite some good references to back your points but absent even a single study you should still be able to demonstrate prior plausibility. Your assignment is:
How do vaccines cause gut injury? Be specific and use your own words. Where relevant cite sources to support your position, not as your argument.

I'm also still waiting to hear why you think that CAD study was relevant enough to cite twice.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

Kind of seems like clinical depression is somewhat overrepresented here.

Well, maybe it's karma.

I take (generic) Effexor and also took Wellbutrin to quit smoking. I’ve been on everything up to risperidone and SSRIs didn’t do much and everything else was too side effect-y (I must have a predisposition to extra pyradimidal effects because I had them pretty much whenever they were an option).

I took Wellbutrin in addition to Lexapro for almost a year. It kept me up at nights, and I was given a script for Trazadone to help with sleep, and the whole thing started to seem like a big clusterf*ck to me, which is one of the reasons I ended up going off of meds in general.

Nothing is quite as effective as good old ETOH in my experience. You guys probably know how that goes in the long run though.

This is the traditional coping strategy among my dad's side of the family. My dad himself became a teetotaler a couple years before having kids, I think partially in reaction to the general family tendency. (Well, he also totaled his car one night and got a very stern talking-to from my maternal grandfather, a big, imposing Norwegian dude: "You are godd*mned lucky my daughter wasn't in that car with you.") On the other hand, he's the one who ended up blowing his brains out, so one of my rationalizations for my own behavior is, "Well, at least the drunks are still alive." He was also forever taking responsibility for everyone and everything, so one of my own reactions to that has apparently been to just be a crazy f*ck-up.

Nothing is quite as effective as good old ETOH in my experience.

Beer & akvavit are a cultural heritage rather than a personal choice.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

I drink gin in order to remember my ancestor who produced excellent products the formulae of which he sold for real money. So it's a tribute to him. That's all.
And I am named after Dionysus thus excusing the wine.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

Doesn't tryptophan show up in white wine, or am I thinking of something else?

I know a nice Spaetlese always makes me feel better.

Vaccination can lead to hyperactive immune response based on microbial predisposition where the gut is damaged first. This mechanism is illustrated by the new MS paper linked at the beginning of my article:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/09/140904084603.htm
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/vaccine-injury-first-gut-then-brain

No studies exist about how any of the childhood vaccines affect gut flora balance or how microbes present affect childhood vaccine response.

The rotavirus vaccine is now part of the government vaccine injury compensation program for causing severe intestinal injury: intussusception.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

Funny how many of these OMG vaccines cause this thing are caused with startling regularity by getting the disease. Generally at much higher rates.

But better your kid gets a serious complication from an all natural illness, right?

http://jvi.asm.org/content/80/24/12377.full While it is a study in mice looking to the mechanisms notes the various infections associated with this problem.

It is a relatively common problem and to date the most likely cause is GI infections. I mean how do you account for all the times it happened before the vaccine came out?

Any differential diagnosis to distinguish between

lyme
brucellosis
hiv

??

‘improper lane change’ in a vehicle that was not moving and that I was not occupying.

^^ That came out abit 'glib', didn't it?

The vehicle was 90 ft off the road in a parking lot where I was invited by the owner to attend a 4'th festival. My bedroll was 300 ft from the truck. It probably didn't help my case that, upon grilling, I informed the officer that I did not wish to take him to the owner because "You are a cop; I'm not the one to be inviting flies to the picknick."

Keith Bell@717
You couldn't craft a meanful thought if someone held a gun to your head and said "think," huh?

Vaccination can lead to hyperactive immune response based on microbial predisposition where the gut is damaged first.

All you've done here is restate yourself. How does the normal immune response or even an exaggerated one become an autoimmune response? How does the microbiome factor in exactly?

This mechanism is illustrated by the new MS paper linked at the beginning of my article:

See, this is exactly what I wanted to avoid when I said DO NOT use papers as your argument. Your MO seems to be make vague general statements that go something like "vaccine...microbes...gut...brain" without explaining how they one follows the other. Then you cite an article that contains some or all of the words you just used without explaining what about your statements it supports. It's like the underpants gnomes.

Please explain step by step for me. When you cite a source say why. Not "the me mechanism in this paper" but actually say what the mechanism you are referring to is. That's the proper way to use a reference. Explain your ideas like you are talking to the brain dead Pharma sh(eep)ill you know I am.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

Ken: "I had one hell of a post-partum depression in the late 60’s which was treated by a course of about 4 different medications. Luckily it abated after several months."

If that's true, then why do you hate doctors so much? How come you've told your 'kids' never to take your 'grandchildren' to doctors and want everyone in your circle to use homeopathy and naturopathy instead?

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

HDB: Aquavit is one of those things I just don't get. I assume it gets you drunk quick enough that the taste isn't noticeable.

KBell: You do realize Rotashield was recalled? That it's no longer used at all?

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

KEITHBELL's only real superpower, running like hell from details, is once again losing its amusement value; the continued linking to press releases, while gratuitously highlighting the dismal substitute that his Gut Brain has provided in lieu of actual thinking doesn't help.

Yet, there is one nugget of gold that has turned up in the Wide Wide River:

And his new peer-reviewed journal, Brain and Gut, is supposed to begin 2016.
h[]tp://www.liebertpub.com/images/cover.ihax?w=209&id=2391&g=

In consequence, I now have one more reason to view The Butterfly dimly: they have outdone Elsevier by creepifying NIH Public Access Policy as follows:

"Liebert, Inc. publishers will deposit the final accepted article (after copy-editing and proofreading) to PubMed Central (PMC) on behalf of the authors. Authors need not take any action. The manuscript’s public access posting on PMC will occur 12 months after final publication. This service is provided free of charge. Please note that authors may not deposit manuscripts directly to PMC or other sites without permission from Mary Ann Liebert, Inc."

Um, that would be a big GFY negatory, Mary Ann.

^ The boldface from "ction." through "that authors" is a screwup.

@ JP # 706

Weeeeeh! So cute!
I love cats.

And hdb, I'm glad too you're around.

@ Narad

“the main mode of death in a nuclear holocaust is sepsis via translocation of gut microbes.”

That's... an interesting way to put it.
I would have thought that a disrupted immune system and breached intestinal walls would be cause for concern.
It's a bit like saying that the main mode of death in plane accidents is hitting the ground.

"main mode"? Ruptured intestines will happen in the fraction of people which were close enough to ground zero to receive a lethal dose of radiation, but far enough to survive the blast itself and the heatwaves.

Fallout will be an issue for the survivors, and I wonder if sepsis is really the main concern.

(anecdotal in a gruesome way, that reminds me of an article I read a dozen years ago about Hiroshima survivors. One Japanese, who was still alive by then, was close enough to the blast to have one of his arm melted by the heat)

By Helianthus (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

The rotavirus vaccine is now part of the government vaccine injury compensation program for causing severe intestinal injury: intussusception.

Whoops.

"XI. Rotavirus vaccine   No Condition Specified"

"(3) Rotavirus vaccines (Item XI of the Table) are included in the Table as of October 22, 1998."

RotaShield was licensed 1998 August 31. The Senate amendment bill was introduced 1998 October 22 (144 Cong. Rec. 24,560) with no mention of a contraindication – it's necessary to authorize the excise tax first. Earliest reported intussusception onset date was 1998 November 21 (48 MMWR 577).

Oh, wait, silly me. Your inability to read of course extends to an inabllity to write.

It will not be until 2015 July that "now" may arrive.

“main mode”? Ruptured intestines will happen in the fraction of people which were close enough to ground zero to receive a lethal dose of radiation, but far enough to survive the blast itself and the heatwaves.

IIRC, the US armed forces invested a lot of research into the question of what level of performance could be expected from troops who had been irradiated to various degrees and were dead men but still walking. At one end of the exposure spectrum there is the "brain death" cohort whose lifespans are limited by the damage done to neural membranes by the ionizing radiation; they might shamble around for a few hours (showing little difference if they're Marines) until too many cells die and they can't brain any more. At the other end are the "blood death" cohort who have only had the equivalent of full-body radiotherapy in the absence of a bone-marrow donor; their lifespan is limited by their supply of red and white blood cells. In the middle is the 'bowel death' range where epithelial cells have also taken a lethal hit (fast-dividing, therefore vulnerable), and after a few days when they all die you no longer have an intestinal wall and the gut bacteria have an entire body laid like a banquet before them.

Such was the theory, anyway. I imagine that Chernobyl provided a lot of data points.

Teh Merck Manual informs me that these are now known as Cerebrovascular syndrome, Hematopoietic syndrome and Gastrointestinal syndrome respectively.

You could describe that third scenario (6 to 25 Grays) as "translocation of gut microbes", I suppose.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

I assume it gets you drunk quick enough that the taste isn’t noticeable.

"Taste"? Akvavit has a thousand tastes. All vile, but subtly different.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 14 Apr 2015 #permalink

Keith Bell,

Speaking of sepsis and translocation of gut microbes, I’ve been learning today about sepsis and autoimmunity:

Then why do you link to an article about a scientist's research on IgE that mentions sepsis only in passing, because of the scientist previous work on toll receptors, and nothing at all about autoimmunity?

Why do you follow that with a complete non sequitur?

Perhaps probiotics should be used pre-vaccination to prevent an overactive immune response including anaphylaxis.

Accompanied by links to two articles about food allergies in mice that have nothing at all to do with vaccines?

I find watching your inept blundering around misunderstanding and misinterpreting cherry-picked studies is horrifying and fascinating in equal measure.

BTW, you might find it less time-consuming to list things that you don't think are intimately linked to the microbiome.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 15 Apr 2015 #permalink

Kay, thanks for posting that paper #720. Risk of intestinal injury by vaccination especially high in preterm infants where flora is undeveloped, i.e., high LPS-producing gammaproteobacteria. Current, cruel protocol is to vaccinate as full term when weighing 2.2 lbs..

Similarly, people like Narad and Orac who were not breastfed suffer low protective Bifidobacteria which would otherwise regulate immune response in Peyer's patches. Unfortunately, they were also spanked heavily as children leading to low self-esteem, substance abuse and criminal behavior. Corporal punishment is now banned in 46 nations:
http://www.endcorporalpunishment.org/pages/progress/prohib_states.html
(Narad, do you spank and/or humiliate your children?)

capn, who's guarding your Peyer's patches, training your immune system? Are they Bacteroides, Firmicutes or Actinobacteria? Are they LPS-producers? It makes a difference, perhaps life and death.
"Researchers also were surprised to find that bacteria present in the body’s gut flora, also known as commensal bacteria, helped the human norovirus infect B cells. Karst said scientists have long known that noroviruses need a particular kind of carbohydrate to infect cells . . . UF scientists detected virus in Peyer’s patches, pockets of lymphoid nodules that line the intestine and survey the organ for pathogens."
http://www.news4jax.com/news/uf-researchers-discover-how-to-cultivate-n…

I suggest capn do some research on the reciprocal relationship between microbes and host immunity. Links can be found in Part 2 of my series:
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/critical-role-microflora-vaccine-injury

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 15 Apr 2015 #permalink

Just how do the following critters tell you anything about pre term infants, or give you full knowledge of any human's infancy of spanking??

"Specific-pathogen-free female outbred CD-1 or inbred BALB/c mice were obtained from Charles River Laboratories (Portage, MI) and were 6 to 8 weeks of age at the time these studies were undertaken. Mice were divided randomly into treatment groups, housed in microisolator cages, and provided with autoclaved water and laboratory autoclavable rodent diet 5010 (Purina Mills, Inc., St. Louis, MO) ad libitum. For rotavirus infections, the mice were moved to a physically separated animal facility and housed under BSL-2 conditions. "

These are mice who were in the study during mouse puberty, not even infant mice.

This weird obsession with intestinal flora and vaccines almost has me nostalgic for the Th1Th2 crowd.

The common thread is Google U. students who quote science without comprehending it, while lecturing those who actually do.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 15 Apr 2015 #permalink

Radiation can do a whole lot of nasty to the body, and not all of the US Army's work on radiation mortality was planned. The story of the Demon Core is instructive; it provided a lot of unscheduled radiation exposure data in two different criticality accidents. (It was later destroyed during an atomic bomb test.) It killed two people directly, and many of the survivors participated in studies to determine how their bodies were responding to the exposure. The two that died directly were Harry Daghlian (fell into a coma soon after the accident and died 25 days later of acute radiation radiation syndrome, specifically affecting the generation of new blood cells; numerous blood transfusions failed to save his life) and Louis Slotin (who was mostly affected in the intestines). Slotin's case would be the most interesting to Mr Bell, as gangrene due to severe intestinal damage was certainly a factor in his death. Wikipedia describes "severe diarrhea, reduced urine output, swollen hands, erythema, massive blisters on his hands and forearms, intestinal paralysis, gangrene, and ultimately a total disintegration of bodily functions". Observers present during the test (many of whom had to be treated for severe radiation poisoning) reported seeing a flash of blue light and perceived heat on their bodies; it's never been clear whether these were actual sensations or whether the radiation was triggering nerves -- both are entirely plausible, and difficult to judge as the exact dose isn't known due to film badges having accidentally been left in their locked, lead-lined safe during the accident, making them useless. Slotin himself also reported a sour taste in his mouth during the excursion.

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 15 Apr 2015 #permalink

KBell: Dude, you might want to tone down the projection. Right now, you'd rival an Imax. You're already an unpleasant specimen-calling you a slime mold would be an insult to those hardworking critters- do you really have to cement your image as a bottom-feeding scumbag. (Apologies to the catfish.)

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 15 Apr 2015 #permalink

Bacon, is all this talk of intestinal flora giving you the heebie-jeebies here in Sterile Orac World™? Feeling queasy?

The sterile "Th1Th2 crowd" has also yet to integrate flora in their understanding of the immune system. But they'll get around to it. How about mothers doing everything they can pre-pregnancy including probiotic therapy if necessary to help avoid vaccine injury? Or, do healthy people even need vaccines? Remember, 95% of all polio cases are asymptomatic.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1398-9995.2010.02501.x/abs…

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 15 Apr 2015 #permalink

"The sterile “Th1Th2 crowd” has also yet to integrate flora in their understanding of the immune system. "

Trolls are sterile?

They look kinda grimy to me, and FSM knows they seem to reproduce like rabbits.

Anyone want popcorn while we wait to see how Kbell tries to use FSM in a sentence?

Keith bell:

Risk of intestinal injury by vaccination especially high in preterm infants where flora is undeveloped, i.e., high LPS-producing gammaproteobacteria.

Citation needed for this claim. There are currently no good, plausible, repeatable studies to in support of your claim.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 15 Apr 2015 #permalink

KB: STOP BEING CREEPY.
There's a reason I'm skeptical about the g-b connection, most of the supporters are discredited whackaloons or grifters. As for the other stuff- I don't share personal info on the net, especially not with creeps.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 15 Apr 2015 #permalink

#684, not impressed by the Fernstroms of Pittsburgh where their sterile view doesn't include effect of exercise on insulin sensitivity:
https://www.thieme-connect.com/DOI/DOI?10.1055/s-2000-8847
http://www.ijbnpa.org/content/10/1/10

Julian, doctors can barely tell the difference between NEC and intussusception in preterm infants. Meanwhile, it's now known flora is based on gestational age such that preterm infants are high in gammaproteobacteria:
http://www.pnas.org/content/111/34/12522.abstract

Is there any wonder preterm infants would be at greater risk of autism by vaccination? How can we have the nerve to stick a needle into any newborn (NOT done in Europe) leave alone a 2.2 lb. infant? Barbaric Orac World™.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 15 Apr 2015 #permalink

Keith Bell:

Is there any wonder preterm infants would be at greater risk of autism by vaccination?

Yes, there is wonder. Your comment above is a complete non-sequitor. How would vaccination either:
a) interact with the gut flora to cause damage? (And don't mention "leaky gut". That's discredited) or;
b) change the gut flora in such a way that changes resulting in autism occur?
I believe you are begging the question. You started with the premise that vaccines cause autism, and you are looking for ways to see how that could be, but there is no evidence that vaccines cause autism.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 15 Apr 2015 #permalink

Keith Bell continues to quote and cite papers without actually explaining why. His posts are emtpy word salad that fails to be even internally consistent. He continually fails to make direct responses to criticism. All this was starting to bore me already but now he's insulted Orac's and Narad's parents. That's just something you don't do. I'm going to walk away because I refuse to engage someone who thinks that is acceptable. Keith Bell, thank you for the amusement and for once again demonstrating just how dispicable the antivax movement can be. On top of being a willfully ignorant fool you are a terrible human being.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 15 Apr 2015 #permalink

Anyone like the idea of Sterile Orac World™ brand homeopathic probiotics?

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 15 Apr 2015 #permalink

Julian, thanks for approaching the heart of the matter. How do vaccines interact with gut flora to cause damage? It's the flora regulating immune response, so different types of flora have a different immune effect. Flora is different by individual, race and gender.

capn, thanks for trying to understand the concepts and flesh them out. Please remember the tone of this blog is about insolence, so it's perfectly acceptable to mock the vaccine injured as well as point out how Orac was repeatedly punished in his youth as analogy to the current vaccine schedule.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 15 Apr 2015 #permalink

Keith Bell:

It’s the flora regulating immune response, so different types of flora have a different immune effect.

Your answer is deeply unsatisfactory. It simply raises more questions.
Where is your evidence that the vaccines alter the gut flora?
What evidence do you have that the gut flora regulates the immune response?
You say flora differs from person to person. How do these differences have an effect and what evidence do you have that they do?

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 15 Apr 2015 #permalink

On top of being a willfully ignorant fool you are a terrible human being.

Oh, this has been known for some time. At this point, he's just flailing wildly again to try to distract from the explicit, abject failures that inevitably result when someone bothers to actually pay attention to his random spew.

Since his entire post-recycling identity is seemingly built on his routine's making him RLY SMURT, it's little surprise that what oozes out is malodorous when the gut–brain connection in his case is demonstrated more accurately to be a shіt–head connection.

He's going to stay here until he can get a reply from Orac. This is Gergles all over again (not to mention Johnny Manynames).

Unless they can get some kind of reaction from our esteemed box of blinky lights, their lives have no meaning.

As a case in point:

so it’s perfectly acceptable to mock the vaccine injured

Along with the return to Peyer's patches, this makes it quite clear that he's been reduced to trying to have a do-over of his previous dismal appearance.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 15 Apr 2015 #permalink

I’ve written four published articles in attempt to inspire research and concern regarding your questions

Five'll get you 10 that he also doesn't understand what "rel=nofollow" means.

In other news, his "published articles" are merely the exact same crap that he's been dribbling out here gathered into larger piles.

This thread has actually managed to surpass this one on the spamvertising front, with nine comments devoted to trying to drive traffic to GMI versus five the last time.

Narad, would love to see your published articles/papers. Are there any you'd like to share? But I understand, you'd rather remain anonymous.

Btw, several of your recent responses/arguments have actually caused me to feel sorry for you. Seriously, I'm finding you to be quite out of touch. I don't like feeling sorry for you because you obviously have a lot of potential. Kreb, on the other hand, appears to be a lost cause; quite a dinosaur, believing the only problem with dietary sugar is obesity.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 15 Apr 2015 #permalink

Mr. Bell: "Narad, would love to see your published articles/papers."

I am still waiting for you to post the verified documentation dated before 1990 that the MMR vaccine has caused the issues you attribute to it in the USA during the 1970s and 1980s. Less then ten year blog posts do not count.

Narad, would love to see your published articles/papers.

Note the sadly defensive escalation. I'm reminded of back when John Stone used to boast that he had Pubmed-indexed "published papers" that ultimately turned out to be two letters to the editor amounting to four or five column-inches total.

I have no need to try to boast about poorly reasoned, high-school-level, three-page essays that have been "published" by Sayer Ji; I don't hold myself out as a writer, much less as a researcher and science writer, which you embarrassingly do.

The demonstrated fact that you can't even coherently respond to freaking blog comments that people have wasted their time composing only to have you studiously avoid them is more than adequate to demonstrate the point.

Btw, several of your recent responses/arguments have actually caused me to feel sorry for you. Seriously, I’m finding you to be quite out of touch. I don’t like feeling sorry for you because you obviously have a lot of potential. Kreb, on the other hand, appears to be a lost cause; quite a dinosaur, believing the only problem with dietary sugar is obesity.

As though the point needed hammering home, that is. This is simply pathetic sniveling. Anyone with two neurons to rub together would readily appreciate that Krebiozen – among many others here – is vastly more knowledgeable than I am in addition to being blessed (or cursed) with a saintlike patience.

Despite the bluster, you're merely a classic sad sack. It's time to pick up your marbles until you have another "published article" to promote on another unrelated comment thread.

I think I'm going to name my toilet the Bell jar.

How do vaccines interact with gut flora to cause damage?

I'm sorry, but you've yet to demonstrate that vaccines do interact with gut flora and cause the damage you claim they do.

I think I’m going to name my toilet the Bell jar.

Beats the oven.

What test could one do on one's gut flora to show that one would not be affected by the various complications of, say, polio? Besides being injected with the polio virus, I mean.

Thanks.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 15 Apr 2015 #permalink

Narad, speaking truth to Keith Bell:

Despite the bluster, you’re merely a classic sad sack.

Methinks the link I used makes your characterization of KB more appropriate. It's the classic Sad Sack.

By Bill Price (not verified) on 15 Apr 2015 #permalink

So "sad sack" basically means the same thing as shlemiel?

So “sad sack” basically means the same thing as shlemiel?

No. He's done all this before. He knows what's going to happen. It's all about craving attention and hoarding indignation.

I was referring to the comic that Bill Price linked to, actually, which is called "Sad Sack" but presents a classic picture of what I'd think of as a shlemiel.

^ Not even the IWW's "Mr. Block."

According to the PffffT! of all knowledge, the comic's name was short for the US Army WW2 usage, 'Sad Sack of Sh¡t'. The similarity to 'shlemiel' is left to the reader's judgment. The applicability to KB is obvious.

By Bill Price (not verified) on 15 Apr 2015 #permalink

I asked Keith Bell:

Where is your evidence that the vaccines alter the gut flora?
What evidence do you have that the gut flora regulates the immune response?
You say flora differs from person to person. How do these differences have an effect and what evidence do you have that they do?

Keith Bell replied:

Julian, those are excellent questions. Nobody has all the answers yet.

Yet Keith assumes that vaccines do cause damage.
Keith, before you can hypothesise how something might be caused, you have to show that it is in fact happening.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 15 Apr 2015 #permalink

And I see that JGC @759 beat me to it.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 15 Apr 2015 #permalink

Keith, before you can hypothesise how something might be caused, you have to show that it is in fact happening.

This is a recurring rhetorical tactic for Keith. Honest people don't feel the need to constantly sneak their intended conclusions in through the back door and disguise them as part of the antecedent. Nor do honest people try to disguise the absence of evidence for their idees fixes by resorting to the fraudulent objectivity of Passive Voice and telling that "X is thought" or "Y is believed".

It's almost as if his appearances are simply to pimp links to his screeds in the hope of gaming Google, rather than any intention to change minds.

Commenters have described Keith's alarums and excursions as "Gish gallops". I am also reminded of the Goon Show episode where Friar Balsam stands on Eccles' shoulders, and Seagoon stands on Balsam's shoulders, and because they still can't reach the window, Eccles stands on Seagoon's shoulders.* Much as Keith dashes from one intellectually-bankrupt claim to another in the hope that the general flurry will leave people convinced that they support one another and together form a coherent scholium.

* Ladies and gentlemen. The feat now being performed is extremely dangerous and should only be done on radio by experienced idiots.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 15 Apr 2015 #permalink

This is a recurring rhetorical tactic for Keith.

This is nonsense. "Keith" has no conventional identity; "he" and "his" words are merely transient instantiations of a mechanistic Gut Brain.

Nothing that he types has any meaning unless fully qualified by a dietary and excretory inventory, and even then, the interpretation of the lab results would be casually left as an exercise for the awestruck recipients, who are by definition incapable of even bounding the requisite poles in the KEITHBELL plane.

incapable of even bounding the requisite poles in the KEITHBELL plane.
These are Complex Analysis power-words. I do not conduct complex analysis unless someone is paying me.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 15 Apr 2015 #permalink

In any event, now that the Power of KEITHBELL's Gut Brain seems to have finally gotten The Message through again, I'll note that not even the reply to these guys offers little solace (footnote omitted):

Although existing positron emission tomography studies in humans are suggestive of serotonergic mechanisms in ATD, improved 5-HT tracer ligands are critically needed to reliably measure endogenous 5-HT. Additional techniques for altering 5-HT function in humans, such as selective receptor antagonists, are also needed. Developing these techniques is especially important because the relevance for humans of ATD studies in rats is
unclear.

Perhaps I'll leave a prediction of what he should blunder into from here in a mayonnaise jar on Funk & Wagnall's HDB's doorstep, but the fact that KEITHBELL's Bifidownership plainly doesn't encompass competent operation of the magic box with the papers inside, it's not striking me as particularly pressing.

^ "little much solace"

Ah, it turns out that Crockett et al. themselves received a reply in Molecular Psychiatry, although Pubmed doesn't have a forward link (footnotes omitted):

Previously we reviewed the literature and concluded that there is no evidence for ATD-induced decreases in rodent, primate or human 5-HT release, unless 5-HT synthesis is already decreased or 5-HT utilization is increased.... [T]he microdialysis studies embraced by Crockett et al. to show ATD-induced reductions in 5-HT release do not provide the direct evidence that is needed to show that ATD decreases extracellular 5-HT concentrations.

Say good night, Gracie.